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Let me tell you a story.
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Back in April 19th, 1909,
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here in Ada, Oklahoma,
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there was one of the mostfamous hangings that ever took place.
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Ada I had a pretty rough reputationin those early days.
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If you wanted to settle a disputeor an argument,
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you just pulled your gun out and said,"Okay, we're gonna settle it here."
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[gunshot]
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A guy named Gus Bobbittwas a rancher here
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that had had several disputesover grazing rights.
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And there was a couple of guysnamed Allen and last name West,
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and they had really bad bloodwith Bobbitt.
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So they got a fellaby the name of Jim Miller.
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He was a hired gun.
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They hired Mueller to come upand kill Bobbitt.
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[gunshot]
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The law peoplein the Ada Pontotoc County area
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managed to get Allen Westand Miller and had them in jail.
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And that Sunday evening,
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this group of men went to the jail,took them down to the livery stable...
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and hanged the men.
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No one knows, to this day,who did the hanging.
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How could 20 to 30 people,with people watching,
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do something like this?
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This was reallya frightening thing for everyone.
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It was written up in the papersall over the United States.
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The end of vigilante justice.
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And what it really meantwas that the courts and law and order
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we're going to start functioningas they should.
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And that when someone�committed an act,
such as killing someone,
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that they would be brought
into the judicial system,
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and law and order
would take care of the punishment,
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not a group of people
taking the law into their own hands.
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[interviewer] How's that working out?
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[tsks and breathes deeply]
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Well... [laughs]
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[Barret]
Central to how I view the world...
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is hearing from the pulpit,
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the emphasis on lovebeing the core principle.
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There are many people who say
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that the types of persons
I've sometimes represented,
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and I've represented guilty people
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who've committed murder many times,
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shouldn't be represented.
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Well, why wouldn't I?
They're a person, you know.
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Like I said, it's just never computed
to me that I was doing,
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I might be doing bad instead of good
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in representing accused killers.
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It was at one point debatable,
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whether there even were innocent people
in prison, as crazy as that seems.
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But at one time,
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there was the idea,
which a segment of the public bought,
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that law enforcement was magic.
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That for whatever reason,
because God was on their side
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innocent people didn't get convicted.
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And the theory,
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if you would think about it,
made no sense
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because if God always intervened,
there wouldn't be crime at all.
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First time I met Ron Williamson
was on death row in 1988.
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I was...
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assistant appellate public defender
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and was assigned
to his case by my supervisor.
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My name is Kim Marks,
I'm an investigator...
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currently at the Oklahoma
Indigent Defense System,
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which is a state agency in Oklahoma.
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[piano music playing]
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I first started working for the Indigent
Defense System in September of 1992.
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And Ron Williamson's case was
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one of the first cases
that was assigned to me.
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[baseball commentator speaking]
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It's a hit!
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There it goes! It's out of here!
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They are very concernedthat you are the one who did it.
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I charge you, devil,
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take your hands off God's propertyand loose every man!
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[Davis] When I first started workingon this case,
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I was told that this wasone of our clients who might be innocent.
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I read that trial transcript, and I'm like
"Where's the part where he's innocent?"
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[laughs] I mean,
'cause the way the trial was presented,
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I mean, there was so muchthat was unsaid in the trial.
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And so much
that was just kind of skewed.
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Because there was nobody
fighting back as hard as they could have,
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it was not apparent
that he was an innocent man.
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When I started reading
all the police reports
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and looking at all the materials
involved in the case,
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I mean, it was just clear to me
that they had the wrong person.
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[Barret]
For Ron, since he was on death row,
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he had a lawyer for a direct appeal,
which was lost.
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From there, he goes on to have lawyersfile a post-conviction application
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on his behalf that was denied.
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He came...
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within a few days of being executed then
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before the case came to...
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the opinion of my supervisor.
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And she got a stay issued.
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I think it was less than a week
before that execution date.
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And then he gets in the federal court.
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[Davis] Now you're asking
the federal court to review it
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to find out if there are any violations
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of the United States Constitution.
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Mistakes the judge might have made,
mistakes the prosecutor might have made,
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all those things that make you believe
this was not a fair trial.
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[Williamson laughs]
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-This feels like a damn game, man.-What's that?
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-This is bullshit.-What?
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I don't know why they keep on me.They know I didn't do this.
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There seemed to be the idea, well,
maybe he did it because he lived close by,
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and the idea that maybe he did it
because he was at the Coachlight.
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And, of course,
both narratives have real problems.
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First of all, it was only Glen Gore...
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who said that Rob Williamson was there.
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The other thing is,
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there's pretty good evidence
from a God-fearing woman
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that he was home
for a long time that night.
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One fact
that Ron would always tell people about
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was that he said
his mother was his alibi witness,
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and that everybody in town knew her,
and knew that her word was good,
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and that she wouldn't lie,
even for her son.
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And he thoughtthat they intentionally waited
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until she was dead to charge him.
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Because, according to him,she could have vouched for the fact
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that he was home all night,the night the Debbie Carter was killed.
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[Darren] She kept a daily journal,
so she went back and checked her journal
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and saw December 7th, 1982,
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that she and Uncle Ronnie
had went and rented like a Betamax...
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or a VCR and a bunch of old movies
that she liked.
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And they sat and watched moviesthat entire night.
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[Barret] She brought the receipt
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for renting them
at the movie place to Dennis Smith
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and never saw that again.
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[Darren] Fact-check me on this,
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but I don't think they were able to finda video camera that day,
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but instead just kind of tooka brief note
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that they accepted the journal,probably put it into evidence.
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And of course, that journal went missing.
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That evidence not being usedand then disappearing
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is, you know, significant.
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[Dawn] This is the sheet rock.
You know, I told you that they...
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exhumed her body.
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This was on the wall
and they could tell that it was a print,
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but they didn't know who it went to.
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So that's why they exhumed her body,
was to try to match,
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and it did match her, it was her print.
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[Darren]
So they had originally done a palm print,
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you know, during the autopsy.
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Right? So they hada very accurate palm print.
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And then Peterson gets the idea
that he wants to exhume the body
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four years after Debbie's death...
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when they already hada palm print on file
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that did not match or did not proveto be Dennis Fritz or Ron Williamson's.
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The investigator
that did the original palm print
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had found that it was not consistent
with Debbie Carter's.
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Then they exhumed the body,
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approximately five years later,
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and the same agent
that said it was not her hand print
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changed his mind
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and said that it was her palm print.
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And it's my understanding
that that's the only time
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he ever changed his mind as to a print.
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[Darren] The dude magically, miraculously,24 years into the guy's career,
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he makes his very first reversal.
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And how he could take�a palm print
from an exhumed body
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and somehow find more accuracy in that
then the original palm print,
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which was taken, I think on December 9th,
two days after the murder...
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Come on, it's ridiculous
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[Kim] In Oklahoma at the time,
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the science available was hair comparison,
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there was fingerprints,
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there were ballistics,
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and tire impressions.
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So a lot of techniques being used
were considered viable tools.
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But now, with new inventions in science,
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new technology, new research,
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we're finding a lot of stuff that we used
just isn't good enough.
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I worked on a DNA case, he was exonerated.
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And that was a Pontotoc County case,prosecuted by Bill Peterson's office.
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The evidence wasn't even human hair.
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They thought it was dog hair.
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How are we comparing dog hair
to human hair
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and coming up with convictions?
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Did you find any pubic hairsthat match that of Dennis Fritz?
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Yes sir, I did.
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I found one pubic hairfrom the wash cloth.
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My opinion that it is consistent,
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microscopically,with Dennis Fritz' pubic hair.
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Their evidence was probably
the most commonly used
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type of forensic evidence
in the 1980s.
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Hair evidence was not a science.
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There were no studies that showed
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that through blind testing
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a person could accurately
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determine which hair came
from which person, there was none of that.
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The phrase that was considered
proper to use
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was the hairs were
microscopically consistent
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and therefore could have originated
from the same source
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Did you find any hairswere consistent, microscopically,
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with that of Ron Williamson?
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Yes I did.
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There were two pubic hairsalso from the bedding,
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hairs that were consistent,microscopically,
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of Ron Williamson's hair?
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Hair evidence has been discredited
over and over.
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People who were convicted
on hair evidence...
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are getting out right and left.
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It seems like they're wrong
more than they're right on hair evidence.
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I mean, I can't answerany more truthful than I answered them.
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It looks like to me...
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that if you can't find outthe guy who did this,
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in this small a town...
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you know,
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what in the hell?
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Why don't you look into the peoplethat can hide that shit?
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[Barret] Nineteen eighty-seven,
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at that pointthey had no statement from Ron.
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In fact, he'd been asked about the case
numerous times
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and he'd always denied it.
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But suddenly, right after he was jailed,
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they thought they hadan incriminating statement from him.
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Which was that he had a dream about
going up to Debra Carter's apartment.
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"I ended up at Debbie Carter's door,
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knocked on the door, and she said,'Just a minute, I'm on the phone.'
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Burst in the door, raped and killed her."
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It was a dream.
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[Barret] The recount of it was not
an admission of having done anything.
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It was his statement of having a dream.
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He did not even describe correctly...
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the scene of the crime.
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[Kim] Ron had a history of mental illness
and, of course, he heard voices.
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And who's to sort out, was it a dream?
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Was it something he heard?
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Was it a voice he heard?
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So, that was problematic.
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[chuckling]
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These are letters from prison.
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I saved practically all of them.
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I think I did. Tried to, anyway.
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This was... [sighs]
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July 12th, 1989.
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Ronnie wrote this.
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"Renee, I'm going throughso much suffering.
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The pressure here is immense,
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never getting to go anywhere.
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I've gotten down on the floorand banged my head against concrete.
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I've hit myself in the facetill I was so sore
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the next day from the punches.
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Everybody here is stuck herelike sardines.
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This is the most sufferingI've ever had to endure.
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Please help me, Ron."
249
00:16:08,509 --> 00:16:11,345
It's hard, it's hard to get a letterlike that in the mail.
250
00:16:12,221 --> 00:16:13,848
Heart-wrenching, you know?
251
00:16:14,682 --> 00:16:16,309
Cried lots of tears.
252
00:16:18,603 --> 00:16:22,565
There were two times
where his next of kin,
253
00:16:22,648 --> 00:16:24,984
who he enlisted as his sister,
254
00:16:25,318 --> 00:16:29,822
got notified
that his execution was impending.
255
00:16:32,492 --> 00:16:33,993
Over time he...
256
00:16:34,619 --> 00:16:36,579
lost significant weight
257
00:16:36,662 --> 00:16:37,997
and he quit bathing.
258
00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,374
He had gray matter on him.
259
00:16:40,458 --> 00:16:42,084
His hair grew out...
260
00:16:43,252 --> 00:16:46,672
and his teeth were rottingout of his mouth.
261
00:16:51,219 --> 00:16:55,306
It's still hard for me to even think about
how he was because...
262
00:16:56,849 --> 00:16:57,892
it was horrible.
263
00:16:57,975 --> 00:16:59,810
It was horrible for him.
264
00:16:59,894 --> 00:17:01,687
It was horrible for us to...
265
00:17:02,230 --> 00:17:03,564
to see it happening.
266
00:17:03,648 --> 00:17:07,527
It was horrible for his family,
who couldn't do anything about it.
267
00:17:07,610 --> 00:17:09,612
The prison just turned a blind eye.
268
00:17:10,530 --> 00:17:12,365
I charge you, devil...
269
00:17:12,448 --> 00:17:17,370
I charge you, devil,take your hands off God's property
270
00:17:17,453 --> 00:17:19,622
and loose every man!
271
00:17:19,705 --> 00:17:21,165
Two balls, one strike.
272
00:17:25,294 --> 00:17:27,088
They don't know you didn't do it.
273
00:17:28,005 --> 00:17:30,675
They are very concernedthat you are the one that did it.
274
00:17:30,883 --> 00:17:32,385
[ROn laughs]
275
00:17:32,635 --> 00:17:35,972
Don't you think they've got better thingsto do than keep coming back on you?
276
00:17:36,055 --> 00:17:38,266
No, like I said.
277
00:17:44,772 --> 00:17:49,318
[Davis] A Brady violationis when there is exculpatory evidence.
278
00:17:49,402 --> 00:17:51,612
If it is in the hands of the state,
279
00:17:51,696 --> 00:17:54,156
which includes the police
and the prosecutor...
280
00:17:54,490 --> 00:18:00,246
and it is... can be viewed as exculpatory
to the person on trial,
281
00:18:00,329 --> 00:18:04,792
you have to give it to whoever
is representing this person on trial.
282
00:18:07,211 --> 00:18:12,049
[Barret] Ron Williamson,
he was brought in for a polygraph in 1983,
283
00:18:12,133 --> 00:18:13,801
and continually...
284
00:18:13,884 --> 00:18:17,430
denied having any involvement in the case.
285
00:18:18,097 --> 00:18:20,224
I'm not gonna take this test again.
286
00:18:20,975 --> 00:18:22,685
I appreciate what you're doing.
287
00:18:22,768 --> 00:18:25,104
I know what you're sayingabout getting clean reads.
288
00:18:25,187 --> 00:18:28,357
But hell, I thought I was,done damn good on it.
289
00:18:28,899 --> 00:18:29,900
[camera clicks]
290
00:18:31,277 --> 00:18:32,695
So there was this tape,
291
00:18:32,778 --> 00:18:35,781
and one of the issues that was raised
on Ron's first appeal
292
00:18:35,865 --> 00:18:38,576
was they never turned over the tape
to the defense.
293
00:18:40,453 --> 00:18:42,622
I mean, the prosecutor should've known,
294
00:18:42,705 --> 00:18:45,833
I mean everyone
should have known that, you know,
295
00:18:45,916 --> 00:18:50,171
we have to look at this evidence
to see if it's something
296
00:18:50,254 --> 00:18:52,006
that should have been turned over.
297
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,801
Sometimes it's a guy who just...things came down too heavy
298
00:18:55,885 --> 00:18:57,845
at one time, so he popped.
299
00:18:58,346 --> 00:18:59,972
I understand it.
300
00:19:00,056 --> 00:19:02,475
I'm sad that they was inconclusive
301
00:19:02,558 --> 00:19:04,894
'cause I wanted desperatelyclear myself in there.
302
00:19:04,977 --> 00:19:06,187
I understand.
303
00:19:06,270 --> 00:19:08,898
[Davis] This long videotape
304
00:19:08,981 --> 00:19:13,319
that they didn't turn over
because they said it was a polygraph
305
00:19:13,402 --> 00:19:16,155
that, you know,
that's inadmissible in court,
306
00:19:16,238 --> 00:19:20,159
it is actually a two-hour interview.
307
00:19:20,242 --> 00:19:23,412
It certainly should have been given
to defense counsel
308
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,207
to see what he really said...
309
00:19:26,707 --> 00:19:29,627
when he was being interviewed by OSBI
310
00:19:29,710 --> 00:19:31,337
and, you know, Ada police.
311
00:19:31,420 --> 00:19:35,341
I mean, you know,
very experienced interrogators.
312
00:19:35,758 --> 00:19:39,595
Well, I'm just sad it didn't turn...I was really confident I could come here
313
00:19:39,679 --> 00:19:41,722
and get this thing over with, so...
314
00:19:44,558 --> 00:19:47,645
[Davis] He denies involvement.
315
00:19:47,728 --> 00:19:48,896
He just...
316
00:19:48,979 --> 00:19:51,691
keeps with his, "I'm innocent, you know,
317
00:19:51,774 --> 00:19:54,610
I didn't, I didn't have anything
to do with this," and...
318
00:19:55,277 --> 00:19:58,989
for two hours they try to trip him up
on that and they can't do it.
319
00:19:59,824 --> 00:20:01,784
Anything else I oughta know about?
320
00:20:03,911 --> 00:20:05,246
Good luck to ya.
321
00:20:07,790 --> 00:20:11,460
[Davis] It's a constitutional violationnot to turn over evidence
322
00:20:11,544 --> 00:20:14,130
that would be exculpatoryto the defense.
323
00:20:14,213 --> 00:20:16,382
There should have been a break
in the trial,
324
00:20:16,465 --> 00:20:18,884
where everybody
could view the video tapes
325
00:20:18,968 --> 00:20:21,846
and they could figure out
if they were relevant
326
00:20:21,929 --> 00:20:24,265
and should be part of the trial,
327
00:20:24,348 --> 00:20:26,392
but they didn't do that.
328
00:20:28,811 --> 00:20:31,647
And we're still stunned that...
329
00:20:32,356 --> 00:20:34,316
fifty-five years after Brady....
330
00:20:34,942 --> 00:20:37,570
We still have prosecutors,
we catch them all the time,
331
00:20:37,653 --> 00:20:38,779
violating Brady.
332
00:20:40,489 --> 00:20:44,618
[Davis] So that was one tapethat was never turned over
333
00:20:44,702 --> 00:20:46,454
to defense counsel.
334
00:20:47,037 --> 00:20:49,290
The other tape is the... [chuckles]
335
00:20:49,373 --> 00:20:51,751
...is the confession of Ricky Jo Simmons.
336
00:20:59,467 --> 00:21:01,093
...I will come and healing.
337
00:21:02,094 --> 00:21:06,766
Oh, my friend. This is the Bible portraitof Jesus Christ of Nazareth!
338
00:21:06,849 --> 00:21:09,059
I will come and heal him!
339
00:21:10,186 --> 00:21:14,398
You've come here for God to help you,and he's going to do something for you.
340
00:21:35,711 --> 00:21:37,797
-Okay, Ron. I'm ready when you are.-Okay.
341
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,965
Why don't you start outand introduce yourself.
342
00:21:40,049 --> 00:21:42,176
Okay, Kim.My name is Ronald Keith Williamson.
343
00:21:42,259 --> 00:21:45,513
I'm currently incarceratedat the Oklahoma State Penitentiary,
344
00:21:45,596 --> 00:21:48,516
here in�McAlester, Oklahoma,where Dan Reynolds is our warden.
345
00:21:48,599 --> 00:21:49,475
Okay.
346
00:21:49,558 --> 00:21:52,853
I was sentenced to dieon September 27th of this year
347
00:21:52,937 --> 00:21:54,438
for a crime I didn't commit,
348
00:21:54,522 --> 00:21:58,484
a heinous, atrocious, and cruel murderto one Debra Sue Carter.
349
00:21:58,567 --> 00:22:02,279
I'm saying I believe one Ricky Jo Simmonsraped and murdered her...
350
00:22:04,323 --> 00:22:08,452
I was with one of the attorneys,
and we were coming out of a visit.
351
00:22:08,994 --> 00:22:11,330
And the prison psychologist stopped us...
352
00:22:12,039 --> 00:22:14,750
and wanted to talk about Ron,
which was highly unusual.
353
00:22:14,834 --> 00:22:17,127
Nobody ever wanted to talk
about our clients.
354
00:22:17,837 --> 00:22:21,465
And he asked, he said
that he had been talking to Ron
355
00:22:21,549 --> 00:22:24,385
and that he had kind of figured out
356
00:22:24,468 --> 00:22:26,178
what was wrong.
357
00:22:26,262 --> 00:22:27,888
And we said, "Okay."
358
00:22:27,972 --> 00:22:32,101
And he continued on,
he said that Ron has an alter ego...
359
00:22:32,184 --> 00:22:34,603
and his name is Ricky Jo Simmons.
360
00:22:34,687 --> 00:22:37,857
And Ron can't bring himself
to confess to the crime.
361
00:22:37,940 --> 00:22:42,027
So his alter-ego named Ricky Jo Simmons
confesses for him.
362
00:22:42,486 --> 00:22:44,989
And I was like, are you kidding me?
[chuckles]
363
00:22:45,823 --> 00:22:48,200
And so I said, "Dr. Smith,
364
00:22:48,284 --> 00:22:51,495
do you understand
that Ricky Jo Simmons is a real person.
365
00:22:51,579 --> 00:22:54,665
That's not what's wrong with Ron,
Ron is innocent."
366
00:23:02,715 --> 00:23:05,759
[Kim] Ricky Jo Simmons was a manwho lived in Ada.
367
00:23:06,218 --> 00:23:08,637
He went to the police
and confessed to the crime,
368
00:23:08,721 --> 00:23:10,639
and he did so on a video tape.
369
00:23:12,266 --> 00:23:15,436
I intentionally went thereto kill somebody...
370
00:23:16,604 --> 00:23:18,063
and not to rape somebody.
371
00:23:20,691 --> 00:23:23,903
I guess I was, you know,trying to get in bed with her.
372
00:23:24,695 --> 00:23:27,072
She started pushing and shoving.
373
00:23:27,740 --> 00:23:30,951
Swinging, pushing me away, you know,just freaked out
374
00:23:33,287 --> 00:23:35,247
I believe I did something out of anger.
375
00:23:37,166 --> 00:23:40,252
Ricky Jo Simmons came
into the police department
376
00:23:40,336 --> 00:23:42,379
and said, "You have the wrong guy.
377
00:23:43,631 --> 00:23:46,425
I believe I killed her, you know?
378
00:23:46,508 --> 00:23:48,344
I am the real killer,"
379
00:23:48,427 --> 00:23:51,722
And every time he said thatthey would say,
380
00:23:51,805 --> 00:23:56,226
"Oh, you know, Ricky,we think you just are making this up.
381
00:23:56,310 --> 00:23:58,896
Can we set up an appointment
with a counselor
382
00:23:58,979 --> 00:24:01,565
for you to help you through this?"
383
00:24:01,649 --> 00:24:03,651
And he came back every time, he said,
384
00:24:03,734 --> 00:24:05,361
"No, I think I killed her."
385
00:24:06,070 --> 00:24:07,863
Because she knew who I was...
386
00:24:08,572 --> 00:24:10,032
I believe I killed her.
387
00:24:11,700 --> 00:24:12,701
Strangled her.
388
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,956
Finally, somebody, the real murderer
had come forward, Ricky Jo Simmons.
389
00:24:17,247 --> 00:24:21,460
They showed the tape to Ron in prison
and he lost his mind.
390
00:24:21,543 --> 00:24:24,630
On the witness stand, Mr. Carter saidthat he picked his daughter up
391
00:24:24,713 --> 00:24:26,715
and he could tell that she was dead!
392
00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:29,969
All I'm saying,I want Ricky Jo Simmons arrested
393
00:24:30,052 --> 00:24:33,263
for the rape and murderof Debbie Carter!
394
00:24:35,349 --> 00:24:37,518
Okay. Now, is that all you want to say?
395
00:24:37,601 --> 00:24:39,603
-That's all I wanna say.-Okay.
396
00:24:41,730 --> 00:24:42,690
I checked once
397
00:24:42,773 --> 00:24:45,859
just to see�if�Ricky Jo Simmons
was still living in Ada,
398
00:24:45,943 --> 00:24:49,196
but I don't think he ever
was brought up again on the case.
399
00:24:49,279 --> 00:24:52,408
And truthfully, I don't think anybody,
except Ron Williamson,
400
00:24:52,491 --> 00:24:53,993
believed that he was guilty.
401
00:24:55,577 --> 00:24:59,248
I think,�Ricky Jo Simmons probably had
his own mental health problems.
402
00:25:10,217 --> 00:25:12,094
Well, he did it! He said he did it!
403
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,054
Remember who you're talking to.
404
00:25:14,138 --> 00:25:15,723
-Okay.-I'm on your side, okay.
405
00:25:15,973 --> 00:25:18,100
-So that's all you wanna do on the video?-That's all.
406
00:25:18,183 --> 00:25:20,477
You wanna do it one more time,to make sure we've got it?
407
00:25:21,061 --> 00:25:22,563
It's up to you, we don't have to.
408
00:25:22,688 --> 00:25:23,981
-I don't wanna do it.-Okay.
409
00:25:25,357 --> 00:25:27,776
Well, I'll turn it off then.That was pretty easy.
410
00:25:29,111 --> 00:25:32,614
Ron Williamson was clearly
very mentally ill.
411
00:25:32,698 --> 00:25:35,325
And it was known to the whole town.
412
00:25:35,409 --> 00:25:39,580
His sisters had worked for years
trying to get help for him.
413
00:25:39,663 --> 00:25:42,207
He was bipolar.
414
00:25:42,708 --> 00:25:45,002
He had some paranoid tendencies.
415
00:25:45,085 --> 00:25:47,588
And this was known to everyone.
416
00:25:47,671 --> 00:25:53,510
And that it never made its way
into his trialwas just shocking to me.
417
00:25:55,763 --> 00:25:59,391
That boy won't cooperate with me at all.If he was paying me I wouldn't be here.
418
00:25:59,475 --> 00:26:02,644
I can't represent him, Judge,I just can't do it.
419
00:26:02,728 --> 00:26:05,481
I don't know who's going to, but I can't.
420
00:26:07,066 --> 00:26:10,319
For a case like Ron's that required
421
00:26:10,402 --> 00:26:13,238
a lot of investigative resources,
422
00:26:13,989 --> 00:26:15,741
Barney wasn't ready for that.
423
00:26:15,824 --> 00:26:19,119
He had a disability in that he was blind.
424
00:26:19,787 --> 00:26:24,041
He hired an assistant
to help read for him and help prepare.
425
00:26:24,124 --> 00:26:25,834
He was court-appointed.
426
00:26:26,752 --> 00:26:28,837
He didn't work hard enough on the case.
427
00:26:28,921 --> 00:26:30,923
He also got paid almost nothing.
428
00:26:31,965 --> 00:26:35,177
I'm not gonna put up with this.I'm too damned old for it, Judge.
429
00:26:36,512 --> 00:26:40,724
I don't want anything to do with it,not under any circumstances.
430
00:26:40,808 --> 00:26:43,811
I have no idea about his guiltor that has nothing to do with it,
431
00:26:43,894 --> 00:26:46,855
but I'm not gonna put up with this.
432
00:26:46,939 --> 00:26:49,691
At this time, I'm gonna askthat you clear the courtroom.
433
00:26:50,609 --> 00:26:52,236
[Barret] I'm by no means...
434
00:26:52,820 --> 00:26:55,906
saying that Barney Ward
did a good job, he didn't.
435
00:26:56,615 --> 00:26:58,117
He did a bad job.
436
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,994
The courts found that he was found
to be ineffective,
437
00:27:01,078 --> 00:27:03,497
and that's because he was ineffective.
438
00:27:10,879 --> 00:27:14,883
Ineffective means that you didn't
effectively represent your client
439
00:27:14,967 --> 00:27:17,010
because maybe you made a mistake.
440
00:27:17,803 --> 00:27:21,598
You know, any lawyer
would have raised the competence issue.
441
00:27:23,767 --> 00:27:26,728
Any lawyer would've done that,
I mean it was so glaring.
442
00:27:27,688 --> 00:27:32,401
[Davis] My mental health argument wasall the things they knew before trial.
443
00:27:32,484 --> 00:27:35,529
I mean, he got Social Security Disability,
444
00:27:35,612 --> 00:27:39,032
based on his mental health
before his trial.
445
00:27:39,116 --> 00:27:42,911
He had been found incompetent
to stand trial
446
00:27:42,995 --> 00:27:45,539
in a check cashing case.
447
00:27:45,622 --> 00:27:46,582
You know?
448
00:27:46,665 --> 00:27:50,210
But somehow when he was
on trial for his life for murder,
449
00:27:50,294 --> 00:27:52,171
nobody thought to raise these things.
450
00:27:52,254 --> 00:27:55,007
But that was my argument
to the 10th Circuit,
451
00:27:55,090 --> 00:27:59,219
is that everybody should have known
that these were important things
452
00:27:59,303 --> 00:28:00,929
for a jury to know about.
453
00:28:01,763 --> 00:28:06,810
I was sentenced to die on September 27thof this year for a crime I didn't commit,
454
00:28:06,894 --> 00:28:09,980
a heinous, atrociousand cruel murder to one...
455
00:28:10,063 --> 00:28:14,193
Judge, say, he granted relief
at the state appeal
456
00:28:14,276 --> 00:28:17,487
that they agreed that there was
ineffective assistance of counsel.
457
00:28:18,447 --> 00:28:19,823
[Davis] We won the new trial...
458
00:28:21,366 --> 00:28:23,994
based on ineffective assistanceof counsel.
459
00:28:30,959 --> 00:28:34,129
And now they're back at the trial level.
460
00:28:34,213 --> 00:28:38,717
Once you've gotten that new trial,
then you can retest all the evidence.
461
00:28:40,344 --> 00:28:42,262
[Kim] I talked to Dennis Fritz,
the co-defendant.
462
00:28:42,346 --> 00:28:44,890
He was very helpful.
He wanted to help Ron.
463
00:28:44,973 --> 00:28:47,684
He believed Ron was innocent and...
464
00:28:48,268 --> 00:28:49,895
he told me he was innocent.
465
00:28:49,978 --> 00:28:53,774
And by the end of the interview,�I was
convinced both of them were innocent.
466
00:28:54,691 --> 00:28:57,569
A large part of the evidence
in Dennis' trial
467
00:28:57,653 --> 00:29:01,240
was his connection to Ron Williamson.
468
00:29:02,991 --> 00:29:05,285
On May 8th, 1987,
469
00:29:05,369 --> 00:29:08,580
Dennis Fritz experienceda strange sense of foreboding.
470
00:29:08,664 --> 00:29:12,376
Just two hours later he was arrestedfor rape and murder.
471
00:29:12,709 --> 00:29:15,545
After a swift trial he was convicted.
472
00:29:15,629 --> 00:29:19,675
And the vote of a single jurorsaved him from the death penalty.
473
00:29:20,676 --> 00:29:25,389
[Grisham] I think his appeals had run,
and since he was not facing death
474
00:29:25,681 --> 00:29:27,724
there was nothing else really to appeal.
475
00:29:27,808 --> 00:29:31,228
If you're not convicted
of a capital offense
476
00:29:31,311 --> 00:29:33,939
you have only one appeal,
477
00:29:34,022 --> 00:29:36,650
which you get a lawyer
appointed by the state,
478
00:29:36,733 --> 00:29:40,153
and Dennis didn't have enough money
to hire his own.
479
00:29:40,696 --> 00:29:44,074
[Davis]
Dennis Fritz filed his own federal appeal
480
00:29:44,157 --> 00:29:48,412
because he did not have a lawyerappointed for him to do that.
481
00:29:48,704 --> 00:29:50,080
Dennis is a smart guy.
482
00:29:50,747 --> 00:29:53,750
Ron was mentally unbalanced in prison.
483
00:29:54,418 --> 00:29:55,794
And he's on death row.
484
00:29:55,877 --> 00:29:57,587
Dennis was in a different prison.
485
00:29:58,213 --> 00:30:01,842
And he saw a early episode
486
00:30:01,925 --> 00:30:06,763
of one of the daytime talk shows
in the early '90sabout DNA.
487
00:30:06,847 --> 00:30:10,892
An Oklahoma law school wants to make sureinnocent people who are put behind bars
488
00:30:10,976 --> 00:30:12,477
still have a chance�at freedom.
489
00:30:12,561 --> 00:30:15,063
That's why the school is teaming upwith a non-profit group,
490
00:30:15,147 --> 00:30:16,898
the Innocence Project,
491
00:30:16,982 --> 00:30:21,528
which has helped overturn nearly 300convictions in the last two decades.
492
00:30:22,321 --> 00:30:24,239
[Scheck] We knew very early
493
00:30:24,323 --> 00:30:29,661
that DNA testing would be transformative
for the criminal justice system.
494
00:30:29,745 --> 00:30:32,539
Not only would it help law enforcement
find the people
495
00:30:32,622 --> 00:30:33,999
who really committed the crimes,
496
00:30:34,082 --> 00:30:36,793
but it would also exonerate...
497
00:30:37,753 --> 00:30:38,920
many individuals.
498
00:30:39,004 --> 00:30:44,217
DNA testing is fairly new in Oklahoma.It was first introduced in 1994.
499
00:30:44,509 --> 00:30:47,095
Now it's playing a major rolein courtrooms.
500
00:30:47,179 --> 00:30:49,306
Experts say it's almost foolproof.
501
00:30:49,389 --> 00:30:51,308
It's certainly better
than hair comparison,
502
00:30:51,391 --> 00:30:53,268
certainly better than ABO blood typing.
503
00:30:53,602 --> 00:30:57,105
[Grisham] Dennis became obsessed with it,
did his research, all he could do,
504
00:30:57,189 --> 00:30:58,982
and contacted the Innocence Project.
505
00:31:00,067 --> 00:31:02,027
They screened him,
506
00:31:02,110 --> 00:31:06,073
which is something that we struggle to do
every day at the Innocence Project.
507
00:31:06,656 --> 00:31:10,494
There's so much mail,
that we struggle to open it all.
508
00:31:11,703 --> 00:31:15,499
Dennis got screened pretty fastbecause his letter was smart.
509
00:31:15,582 --> 00:31:18,585
He had his file, you know,perfectly organized.
510
00:31:18,668 --> 00:31:20,337
He knew it inside and out.
511
00:31:20,921 --> 00:31:22,172
It takes a long time...
512
00:31:22,756 --> 00:31:24,174
for for us to take a case,
513
00:31:24,466 --> 00:31:26,510
you know, because we have to be careful.
514
00:31:26,593 --> 00:31:28,220
And the cases we do take,
515
00:31:28,303 --> 00:31:30,555
out of the thousands
of letters that come in,
516
00:31:30,639 --> 00:31:32,474
half the time the guy is lying.
517
00:31:33,266 --> 00:31:37,229
Barry Scheck was involved
in representing both Ron and Dennis.
518
00:31:37,312 --> 00:31:40,065
Ron, especially,
because Ron was a death penalty case.
519
00:31:40,482 --> 00:31:41,775
Dennis was not.
520
00:31:42,317 --> 00:31:45,612
And Mark Barrett was Ron's lawyer.
521
00:31:45,695 --> 00:31:49,491
He had been working for years
on Ron's case.
522
00:31:49,574 --> 00:31:51,660
And he and Barry teamed up.
523
00:31:52,244 --> 00:31:55,997
[Scheck]Sometime after Mark Barrett
was appointed to represent Ron
524
00:31:56,081 --> 00:31:57,332
in the retrial
525
00:31:57,416 --> 00:31:59,960
we wound up representing Dennis Fritz,
526
00:32:00,043 --> 00:32:02,921
and were willing to pay
for all the DNA testing
527
00:32:03,588 --> 00:32:05,966
that had to be done
for both Ron and Dennis.
528
00:32:06,049 --> 00:32:08,718
We regarded, essentially,
that we were a team
529
00:32:08,802 --> 00:32:11,221
and we were gonna work together
to do everything we could
530
00:32:11,304 --> 00:32:15,725
to vacate these convictions
and find the person who actually did it.
531
00:32:19,771 --> 00:32:23,859
[Barret] You can't always identifywhich people are innocent,
532
00:32:23,942 --> 00:32:27,154
and we were talkingabout doing DNA evidence.
533
00:32:27,737 --> 00:32:30,699
Ron had zero hesitation.
534
00:32:30,782 --> 00:32:33,702
And I tried to tell myself,
535
00:32:34,286 --> 00:32:38,290
you know, I gotta temper
my expectations a little bit
536
00:32:38,373 --> 00:32:41,710
because even though
he has zero hesitation,
537
00:32:41,793 --> 00:32:43,086
he's also crazy.
538
00:32:44,713 --> 00:32:47,257
New information tonightin a rape and murder case
539
00:32:47,340 --> 00:32:49,759
that a victim's family thought was over.
540
00:32:58,101 --> 00:33:02,439
Over the past five years, DNA has becomea popular tool for attorneys.
541
00:33:03,648 --> 00:33:07,068
I wanted it,Mark Barrett and Bill Peterson wanted it.
542
00:33:07,944 --> 00:33:10,030
[Barret] While he filed the first motionfor it,
543
00:33:10,113 --> 00:33:12,824
believing that it would help himprove his case.
544
00:33:12,908 --> 00:33:15,076
I think he thought that Ron was guilty
545
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,287
and that DNA would help him
prove that.
546
00:33:17,370 --> 00:33:22,167
I contacted the lab and they said,"Do we still have that evidence?"
547
00:33:22,250 --> 00:33:25,962
"Yes, we do."And I said, "I want an analysis done."
548
00:33:26,338 --> 00:33:29,466
[Long] Back in 1982 when this happened,
549
00:33:29,549 --> 00:33:35,347
DNA forensic application,
that wasn't even on the horizon.
550
00:33:35,805 --> 00:33:38,350
It wasn't until quite a while later
551
00:33:38,433 --> 00:33:41,728
that they were able
to do any DNA work in this case.
552
00:33:41,811 --> 00:33:46,733
What we decided to do
was to check the DNA on the panty section
553
00:33:46,816 --> 00:33:48,568
and the sheets.
554
00:33:48,652 --> 00:33:50,987
We would do that first
and if it came back,
555
00:33:51,071 --> 00:33:54,824
whatever comes back, then to make sure
then, we would do the hairs.
556
00:33:54,908 --> 00:33:58,411
It was something new
that helped us know the truth
557
00:33:58,495 --> 00:34:00,121
that we couldn't know before.
558
00:34:00,205 --> 00:34:04,960
New DNA testing could mean that the twomen convicted in the 1982 rape and murder
559
00:34:05,043 --> 00:34:07,587
of Debbie Carter of ADA could go free.
560
00:34:07,921 --> 00:34:10,131
It's our big story tonight at six.
561
00:34:10,215 --> 00:34:13,635
Eyewitness News 5 reporter Steve Voelkerjoins us live from Ada tonight,
562
00:34:13,718 --> 00:34:16,763
and Steve some shocking news in this casethat many thought was solved.
563
00:34:16,846 --> 00:34:18,682
It was in this Pontotoc County courthouse
564
00:34:18,765 --> 00:34:22,269
where Ron Williamson and Dennis Fritzwere sentenced 12 years ago,
565
00:34:22,352 --> 00:34:25,564
and it will be in this courthouse�wherewe will learn if they will be set free.
566
00:34:26,231 --> 00:34:29,526
[Judge] And then I got a letter,three or four weeks later,
567
00:34:30,026 --> 00:34:35,574
and it said this is not Dennis Fritz
and Ron Williamson.
568
00:34:39,494 --> 00:34:41,871
I set that hearing
just as quick as I can set it.
569
00:34:41,955 --> 00:34:43,957
I don't even remember who called me,
570
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,295
but they told me
that nothing matched Ron and Dennis
571
00:34:48,378 --> 00:34:50,297
and they was gonna have to release them.
572
00:34:51,131 --> 00:34:53,508
[Judge] I did not know what to expect,
573
00:34:53,592 --> 00:34:57,053
except when I went by the courthouse
the trucks had started gathering.
574
00:34:57,137 --> 00:34:59,973
I remember being very confused
by the whole situation
575
00:35:00,056 --> 00:35:02,559
because there were 20/20, Dateline,
576
00:35:02,642 --> 00:35:06,187
every state news station,
all these new trucks and satellites,
577
00:35:06,271 --> 00:35:10,442
and we really didn't have a clue
as to what we walked in, on that day.
578
00:35:10,525 --> 00:35:12,360
All we knew
is that they were being released
579
00:35:12,444 --> 00:35:15,405
and these tests,
this DNA stuff didn't match.
580
00:35:17,741 --> 00:35:21,244
Ron Williamson and Dennis Fritzwalked into the courtroom in handcuffs.
581
00:35:21,786 --> 00:35:23,830
They got convicted
in that little courtroom.
582
00:35:23,913 --> 00:35:26,666
By golly, I thought
they would walk out the door right there.
583
00:35:26,750 --> 00:35:29,586
[Darren] I drove to Ada,so I sat in the courtroom.
584
00:35:29,669 --> 00:35:33,715
He was in civilian clothes. First time
I'd seen him that way in a long time.
585
00:35:33,798 --> 00:35:37,969
One of the things I remember is they
brought my dad and Ron in, in handcuffs.
586
00:35:38,053 --> 00:35:40,555
And so that was kind of hard to see.
587
00:35:41,556 --> 00:35:43,475
That was the first time I'd seen himin 12 years.
588
00:35:44,934 --> 00:35:47,729
It was his decisionfor me not to visit him in prison.
589
00:35:48,813 --> 00:35:50,899
He didn't want me to be around
590
00:35:50,982 --> 00:35:54,069
the people that were there with him,
591
00:35:54,152 --> 00:35:55,487
and he just, you know,
592
00:35:55,570 --> 00:35:57,906
he just didn't want me
to be exposed to that.
593
00:35:58,907 --> 00:36:00,492
I was excited but, you know,
594
00:36:00,575 --> 00:36:04,287
still just on pins and needles, not really
knowing exactly what was gonna happen,
595
00:36:04,371 --> 00:36:07,791
if he was going to be freed
or what that really meant for him.
596
00:36:08,583 --> 00:36:12,170
[Judge] What happened is Bill
put on a witness from the OSBI
597
00:36:12,921 --> 00:36:16,883
that put on testimony
that it wasn't them.
598
00:36:16,966 --> 00:36:19,928
There were no DNA profiles found
599
00:36:20,011 --> 00:36:23,139
on any of the evidencethat we submitted to any of the labs
600
00:36:23,223 --> 00:36:26,226
that were consistentwith either Mr. Fritz or Mr. Williamson.
601
00:36:26,601 --> 00:36:28,103
Oh God, I was a nervous wreck.
602
00:36:28,687 --> 00:36:31,856
On the other hand,
is like the truth is the truth.
603
00:36:31,940 --> 00:36:34,025
Let's get it out.
604
00:36:34,109 --> 00:36:36,569
The truth is that the evidence,
605
00:36:36,653 --> 00:36:38,655
some of the evidence that was used
606
00:36:38,738 --> 00:36:42,659
to convict Dennis Fritzand Ronald Keith Williamson
607
00:36:42,742 --> 00:36:44,744
has been proven by DNA
608
00:36:44,828 --> 00:36:48,832
that they are not the sourceof the donation of this forensic evidence.
609
00:36:49,165 --> 00:36:52,085
And I believe it's incumbent,based on the evidence,
610
00:36:52,168 --> 00:36:54,629
that this case should be dismissedagainst them.
611
00:36:54,713 --> 00:36:57,632
Well, I just sat there
and I looked at Judge Landrith.
612
00:36:58,007 --> 00:37:00,218
And he looked at me several times.
613
00:37:00,885 --> 00:37:02,929
The boys got to stand up.
614
00:37:06,516 --> 00:37:09,894
What you've seen today�and what's occurredover the last several months,
615
00:37:10,019 --> 00:37:12,981
was what I truly believe is a...
616
00:37:14,315 --> 00:37:16,526
a non-adversarial
617
00:37:16,609 --> 00:37:19,529
search for what the truth really isin this case.
618
00:37:20,780 --> 00:37:23,658
We used today's scienceand today's technology
619
00:37:23,742 --> 00:37:25,952
to right a wrong.
620
00:37:32,083 --> 00:37:35,295
have been incarcerated,nor can we ever forget Debbie Carter?
621
00:37:35,378 --> 00:37:38,548
All we can do is go forward�from today.
622
00:37:39,132 --> 00:37:43,219
But what this day really is,it's a day of freedom.
623
00:37:44,220 --> 00:37:46,931
The motions to dismiss will be granted...
624
00:37:47,599 --> 00:37:48,683
for both of you.
625
00:37:49,559 --> 00:37:52,645
And Mr. Fritz, sir, you'll be discharged
626
00:37:52,729 --> 00:37:55,732
from the custodyof the Department of Corrections
627
00:37:55,815 --> 00:37:58,860
and the Pontotoc�County Sheriff's Office.
628
00:37:58,943 --> 00:38:01,529
And Mr. Williamson, sir,you'll be discharged also
629
00:38:01,613 --> 00:38:05,116
from the Department of Correctionsand the Pontotoc County Sheriff's Office.
630
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,076
-Thank you, Judge.-And...
631
00:38:07,702 --> 00:38:10,705
Mr. Williamson and Mr. Fritz,you're free to go.
632
00:38:14,501 --> 00:38:15,585
-Ron?-Yeah.
633
00:38:15,668 --> 00:38:17,086
-We'll catch you later.-Okay.
634
00:38:21,132 --> 00:38:23,134
[murmur]
635
00:38:30,099 --> 00:38:31,601
During his years as an inmate,
636
00:38:31,684 --> 00:38:35,104
Dennis Fritz had not allowedhis daughter to come and see him.
637
00:38:35,188 --> 00:38:38,858
The last time they were togethershe was 12 years old.
638
00:38:40,068 --> 00:38:43,655
Dennis, you know, sees Elizabeth and...
639
00:38:44,864 --> 00:38:46,866
[whimpers and sniffles]
640
00:38:57,502 --> 00:38:58,670
That was something.
641
00:39:04,843 --> 00:39:06,928
Elizabeth, yes,
642
00:39:07,262 --> 00:39:12,141
exact spitting image of her mother,except her mother had blonde hair.
643
00:39:12,225 --> 00:39:15,562
And I just almost fainted,you know, when I seen her.
644
00:39:15,645 --> 00:39:17,355
It was just, you know, I mean...
645
00:39:18,273 --> 00:39:22,569
It took me several minutesto actually catch my breath.
646
00:39:24,153 --> 00:39:25,738
[Elizabeth] They tear you down.
647
00:39:26,072 --> 00:39:30,076
For my family, I mean,they took my family away. [chuckles]
648
00:39:30,159 --> 00:39:32,829
I only had my dad and... [sobs]
649
00:39:33,872 --> 00:39:35,665
...that family unit is...
650
00:39:36,457 --> 00:39:39,252
was just ripped away for no reason.
651
00:39:41,170 --> 00:39:43,381
How do you feelabout what happened here today?
652
00:39:43,464 --> 00:39:46,718
There was a little bit of animosity in myheart toward everybody on this Earth
653
00:39:46,801 --> 00:39:48,386
for sending me to death row,
654
00:39:48,469 --> 00:39:52,265
but eventually I did find a reasonin my heart
655
00:39:52,348 --> 00:39:54,267
to forgive and forget it.
656
00:39:54,350 --> 00:39:56,185
It's hard to get anybody to listen to you.
657
00:39:56,269 --> 00:40:00,815
I mean, it is terribly difficultto be on death row, an innocent man
658
00:40:00,899 --> 00:40:03,818
and chargedwith a potentially heinous crime.
659
00:40:03,902 --> 00:40:05,904
[cameras clicking]
660
00:40:06,237 --> 00:40:08,573
How close did you come to being executed?
661
00:40:08,656 --> 00:40:09,741
Five days.
662
00:40:11,701 --> 00:40:13,077
We knew that he was innocent.
663
00:40:14,746 --> 00:40:17,373
But it's hard,like he said, to convince people
664
00:40:17,457 --> 00:40:18,791
for people to listen to you.
665
00:40:19,500 --> 00:40:23,004
But we're just looking forwardto our family coming together again.
666
00:40:23,588 --> 00:40:25,548
[Renee]That was joyful tears.
667
00:40:25,632 --> 00:40:28,968
I cried then but they were�joyful tears.
668
00:40:30,011 --> 00:40:32,180
We went outside.
669
00:40:32,263 --> 00:40:34,182
You know, everybody followed him out.
670
00:40:34,265 --> 00:40:37,477
And the first thing he didwas light a cigarette up.
671
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:42,649
And we all were just gathered around him,hugging him and congratulating him.
672
00:40:42,732 --> 00:40:45,151
And he was smiling from ear-to-ear.
673
00:40:45,234 --> 00:40:48,154
And getting to touch himfor the first time in...
674
00:40:49,030 --> 00:40:50,490
almost 12 years.
675
00:40:50,573 --> 00:40:52,367
I feel pretty good, I tell ya.
676
00:40:52,450 --> 00:40:54,202
[Darren]
It was an awesome day, in general.
677
00:40:54,285 --> 00:40:57,580
It was probably the best daythat we had out of the entire story.
678
00:40:58,289 --> 00:41:01,709
But the trauma inflictedon the Carter family,
679
00:41:01,793 --> 00:41:04,379
I mean, is just absolutely heartbreaking.
680
00:41:04,462 --> 00:41:06,714
What Peggy has had to go through.
681
00:41:06,798 --> 00:41:11,552
There she is at square one, to have to go
back through all this, after 16 years.
682
00:41:11,636 --> 00:41:14,430
But for the family of the murder victim,Debbie Carter,
683
00:41:14,514 --> 00:41:17,767
the men's releasesis no cause for celebration.
684
00:41:17,850 --> 00:41:22,855
[Peggy] And they got released and I knowthey had these big smiles on their face.
685
00:41:23,606 --> 00:41:26,484
And I thought,"Boy, I'm proud somebody's happy today.
686
00:41:27,944 --> 00:41:29,487
Cause I'm not one of 'em."
687
00:41:31,531 --> 00:41:34,659
And I was just,
I was afraid, I was scared.
688
00:41:34,742 --> 00:41:37,328
And all I could do was think, you know,
689
00:41:37,412 --> 00:41:39,998
"Somebody's got to take blame for this."
690
00:41:40,081 --> 00:41:43,710
And I got to crying so hardthey had to take me downstairs.
691
00:41:43,793 --> 00:41:47,213
And this day is obviouslya great day of joy
692
00:41:47,296 --> 00:41:49,048
for some,
693
00:41:49,424 --> 00:41:50,758
and it's a...
694
00:41:51,342 --> 00:41:55,138
great day of sorrow revisited,rekindled for others.
695
00:41:55,263 --> 00:41:58,975
I thought well, I'll never know now
who done it to her.
696
00:41:59,058 --> 00:42:01,644
I'll never ever find out.
697
00:42:03,354 --> 00:42:04,564
I'll never know.
698
00:42:07,275 --> 00:42:09,193
[Christy]
I was standing in the DA's office and...
699
00:42:10,069 --> 00:42:12,030
the whole family was there and I was...
700
00:42:12,780 --> 00:42:15,908
we were all asking questionsand he assured us
701
00:42:15,992 --> 00:42:18,745
that if they found outthat they had anything to do with it
702
00:42:18,828 --> 00:42:20,580
that they would try them again.
703
00:42:20,663 --> 00:42:24,042
And I can remember asking
"Like that doesn't make any sense.
704
00:42:24,125 --> 00:42:25,752
You can't do that, you know..."
705
00:42:25,835 --> 00:42:27,295
He didn't really have any answers.
706
00:42:27,378 --> 00:42:29,797
He kind of stumbled around
and didn't have any answers.
707
00:42:30,423 --> 00:42:33,468
[Darren]Even on the day, and the day after,
708
00:42:33,551 --> 00:42:35,636
Bill Peterson was putting out statements,you know,
709
00:42:35,720 --> 00:42:39,724
here in the local media, you know,saying, you know, "I'll do what I can,
710
00:42:39,807 --> 00:42:42,477
that Ron and Dennis are still, you know,
711
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:44,562
that we're still looking into them."
712
00:42:44,645 --> 00:42:48,274
That gave them a lot of panic
even after they were exonerated and free.
713
00:42:48,816 --> 00:42:51,027
Daddy thought that this guy
was gonna go after 'em again.
714
00:42:52,820 --> 00:42:55,114
They believedthat they had something to do with it,
715
00:42:55,198 --> 00:42:58,409
that they had to be there, and people
still hold on to that to this day.
716
00:42:59,368 --> 00:43:02,288
They'll tell you,"I know that they were there.
717
00:43:02,371 --> 00:43:03,956
They had to be there."
718
00:43:05,083 --> 00:43:08,002
[Renee] I don't think
you will ever change their minds.
719
00:43:08,086 --> 00:43:12,215
and that's okay for them
if they want to believe that way.
720
00:43:12,298 --> 00:43:15,927
But I want the world to know
that he was innocent.
721
00:43:23,017 --> 00:43:26,938
They can't get it right,
just like getting Williamson.
722
00:43:28,815 --> 00:43:31,442
They wanted to blame himbecause he was a neighbor...
723
00:43:32,151 --> 00:43:36,531
and he had mental problems.So he's the one that done it.
724
00:43:37,824 --> 00:43:42,495
His only friend was Dennis Fritz.So he helped him.
725
00:43:43,538 --> 00:43:44,622
You can't do that.
726
00:43:44,997 --> 00:43:46,791
That's not fair to them guys.
727
00:43:47,458 --> 00:43:48,751
You just don't do that.
728
00:43:50,253 --> 00:43:53,131
[Long] We did the best we could
729
00:43:53,214 --> 00:43:56,008
with the technologythat we had at the time.
730
00:43:56,759 --> 00:44:00,888
And do I regret that those things
happened to those guys?
731
00:44:00,972 --> 00:44:02,765
Oh, absolutely.
732
00:44:03,516 --> 00:44:06,727
Absolutely.
I just think that, that's terrible.
733
00:44:08,020 --> 00:44:12,567
Do I think anybody
did anything on purpose
734
00:44:12,650 --> 00:44:14,694
to see to it that that happened to them?
735
00:44:15,236 --> 00:44:16,737
Absolutely not.
736
00:44:18,072 --> 00:44:20,408
[Scheck]
I don't think it's accurate to say
737
00:44:20,491 --> 00:44:22,910
they did the best they couldwith the evidence that they had.
738
00:44:22,994 --> 00:44:25,538
No, it was not a well done investigation,
739
00:44:25,621 --> 00:44:29,876
and the failure to disclose
a lot of this exculpatory evidence
740
00:44:30,042 --> 00:44:31,836
the judge recognized.
741
00:44:31,919 --> 00:44:35,214
And that's not the way prosecutors...
742
00:44:36,299 --> 00:44:39,468
should behave, you're supposed
to disclose exculpatory evidence.
743
00:44:39,552 --> 00:44:41,095
That's the fundamental.
744
00:44:43,014 --> 00:44:47,560
Well, this is one of those...
remarkable kind of iconic cases
745
00:44:48,269 --> 00:44:49,687
that demonstrates...
746
00:44:50,688 --> 00:44:52,231
not just one thing,
747
00:44:52,315 --> 00:44:55,943
but a multitude of things that are wrong
with the criminal justice system.
748
00:44:57,570 --> 00:44:59,739
There's no need necessarily...
749
00:45:00,448 --> 00:45:03,701
to get too conspiratorial about it.
750
00:45:04,327 --> 00:45:06,037
But something's really rotten...
751
00:45:06,746 --> 00:45:08,122
at the core of this case.
752
00:45:14,045 --> 00:45:16,672
This is going to happen again,
don't think otherwise.
753
00:45:21,177 --> 00:45:25,223
One of the biggest lessons
to learn from Ron's case
754
00:45:25,306 --> 00:45:28,434
is that if there had been no DNA...
755
00:45:29,310 --> 00:45:34,357
if Debbie Carter have been merely
murdered and not raped and murdered,
756
00:45:34,941 --> 00:45:37,026
Ron Williamson
would have been executed
757
00:45:37,109 --> 00:45:39,862
and Dennis Fritz would have spent
the rest of his life in jail.
758
00:45:40,613 --> 00:45:44,242
You can have that same evidence,
minus the semen,
759
00:45:44,325 --> 00:45:46,535
and get people convicted today.
760
00:45:46,619 --> 00:45:49,288
And examples are Tommy Ward
and Karl Fontenot.
761
00:45:49,372 --> 00:45:52,291
There's no DNA
that we know of so far, anyway,
762
00:45:52,375 --> 00:45:55,503
to be tested in their case,
their case stinks like crazy.
763
00:45:59,131 --> 00:46:01,968
And I've seen the other people too
that's being released
764
00:46:02,051 --> 00:46:04,303
for wrongful convictions and stuff.
765
00:46:04,387 --> 00:46:05,846
And I cry.
766
00:46:06,472 --> 00:46:08,933
A blessing. [whimpers and sniffles]
767
00:46:15,273 --> 00:46:17,650
It's an overwhelming blessing.
768
00:46:17,733 --> 00:46:20,278
I pray and ask God,I wish it was me, you know.
769
00:46:22,154 --> 00:46:24,532
[Barret]
Barry Scheck, and I were working on
770
00:46:24,615 --> 00:46:27,576
Ron and Dennis' civil suit.
771
00:46:27,868 --> 00:46:29,912
We were saying among ourselves...
772
00:46:32,290 --> 00:46:34,875
Hey, Tommy and Karl
have got to be innocent.
773
00:46:39,505 --> 00:46:42,842
And somebody ought to do something
about that sometime.
774
00:46:45,636 --> 00:46:46,929
Good to see you, Tommy.
775
00:46:47,013 --> 00:46:48,764
It's sure good to see you too.
776
00:46:51,017 --> 00:46:53,644
[Barret]
I have no doubt about Tommy's sentence.
777
00:46:53,728 --> 00:46:55,730
There's just no way he did it.
778
00:46:57,189 --> 00:47:01,777
Both cases involve alleged dreamsby suspects.
779
00:47:01,861 --> 00:47:07,408
Ron claim he dreamed about going upto Debbie Carter's apartment.
780
00:47:08,701 --> 00:47:10,328
And Tommy...
781
00:47:11,245 --> 00:47:12,580
dreamed about...
782
00:47:13,414 --> 00:47:15,958
what happened to Denice Haraway.
783
00:47:18,044 --> 00:47:21,047
Both of the dreamsdescribed inaccurate facts.
784
00:47:22,256 --> 00:47:25,051
The dreams were put into evidencein both cases.
785
00:47:26,844 --> 00:47:29,221
They were both cases that...
786
00:47:29,972 --> 00:47:32,058
were not immediately solved.
787
00:47:32,933 --> 00:47:35,853
Lead investigators were the same.
788
00:47:36,562 --> 00:47:40,649
The primary prosecutorwas Bill Peterson in both cases.
789
00:47:42,026 --> 00:47:43,652
It raises questions.
790
00:47:48,783 --> 00:47:51,452
[Tommy] Each day I just take it one day
at a time, you know,
791
00:47:51,535 --> 00:47:56,665
and you can�either come in here
and be just as salty and bitter about it,
792
00:47:56,749 --> 00:47:59,460
or you can do everything you can
793
00:47:59,543 --> 00:48:01,629
to try your best to get out.
794
00:48:05,216 --> 00:48:07,802
That's fantastic,
it's good of you to call me.
795
00:48:07,885 --> 00:48:09,553
I really appreciate it.
796
00:48:09,637 --> 00:48:10,930
Yeah, good.
797
00:48:11,013 --> 00:48:13,265
-[people chattering]
-[clanking]
798
00:48:13,391 --> 00:48:15,351
I pray all the time,
799
00:48:15,434 --> 00:48:19,397
that something would fall through,
you know, that would prove it.
800
00:48:21,232 --> 00:48:22,900
I don't know what, you know, but...
801
00:48:23,567 --> 00:48:25,820
I hope something will fall through.
802
00:48:52,471 --> 00:48:55,975
[Tommy] I was dreaming that I lookedand my cell door was open
803
00:48:56,058 --> 00:48:57,601
and I hear this voice say,
804
00:48:58,185 --> 00:49:00,980
"I can take you and show youwhere Denice is at."
805
00:49:02,857 --> 00:49:04,817
I say, "Where?" He said, "Follow me."
806
00:49:05,651 --> 00:49:07,570
And I started to walk out the door,
807
00:49:07,653 --> 00:49:09,989
and all of a sudden,I feel this weird feeling.
808
00:49:10,072 --> 00:49:10,906
I said...
809
00:49:12,658 --> 00:49:13,993
Who are you?
810
00:49:14,702 --> 00:49:15,578
And...
811
00:49:16,495 --> 00:49:17,955
he said, "Does it matter?"
812
00:49:18,038 --> 00:49:19,081
I said, "Yeah."
813
00:49:19,165 --> 00:49:23,085
And then for some reason, I said,"Are you a God or are you the devil?"
814
00:49:25,254 --> 00:49:28,466
And as soon as I said that, I woke up.
815
00:51:21,829 --> 00:51:23,664
Subtitle translation by
816
00:51:23,714 --> 00:51:28,264
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