Original subtitles

Recording in one minute. Studio stand by.

We are going to talk about cuts...

in government extravagance, that sort of thing, Bob, aren't we?

We'll get to that if we've got time after the National Data Base.

You know, I don't think people are really interested in the Data Base.

It's so trivial.

VT running.

- What's the matter? - You look a bit too pink.

We can't have that, what would the Daily Telegraph say?

I mean, all those questions about "are we creating a police state?"

- I truts, we can do without those. - Jim, you know me.

I don't give out my questions in advance.

Dead silence, now, please.

Ten seconds...

Five. Four. Three. Two...

Good evening.

Is Big Brother watching you? To be more precise,

the Government is building up a dossier on you.

It's called by the harmless sounding name of "National Integrated Data Base".

What it means is that, at the press of a button any civil servant...

can inspect just about every detail of your life

your tax, your medical record, periods of unemployment,

children's school records, the lot. And that civil servant

may happen to be your next-door neighbor.

Well, recently there's been mounting concern over this powerful,

even totalitarian weapon that the computer revolution

has put into the Government's hand.

And the man who wields the weapon is the Minister

for Administrative Affairs, the Right Honourable James Hacker M.P.

Now, Minister, are you laying the foundations of a police state?

You know, I'm glad you asked me that question.

Well, Minister, could we have the answer?

Well, yes of course, I'm just about to give it to you, if I may.

As I said, I'm glad you asked me that question.

Because...

it's a question

a lot of people are asking.

And why?

Because a lot of people want to know the answer to it.

And let's be quite clear about this without beating about the bush,

the plain fact of the matter is

that it's a very important question indeed

and people have a right to know.

But Minister, we haven't yet had the answer.

I'm sorry, what was the question?

Now look, supposing I annoy you in this interview,

how do I know you won't go back to your office,

press a button and call up my tax records,

my hospital records, my police record...

Oh no. No. No. Bob.

You know, as well as I do, that's not the way we do things in this country.

What's the Data Base for if it's not to check up on people?

You know, that's a very interesting question.

It's for storing information

so as to speed up government business

so that we need not take on an enormous influx of clerical staff.

Computers are big business and are good news.

But, Minister, if you put information into the machine,

you'll eventually take information out of the machine.

Not necessarily.

So, you're going to spend 25 million pounds

accumulating information and never use it?

No. Yes. No.

Well, there will be safeguards.

Such as?

Close in on him, Two. Bob's got him on the run.

One minute 45, studio.

We'll be looking at a whole range of possibilities.

And of course, it's a complex and highly technical matter.

"Rome wasn't built in a day."

It's under review.

And of course, these things take time.

Minister, am I talking to the former editor of Reform

or to a Civil Service spokesman?

We haven't yet talked about the safeguards I've already introduced.

And there's my new bureaucratic watchdog office, for instance.

Well, Minister, it does look as if we'll need...

a whole pack of watchdogs before long.

But thank you very much.

Right, hold it there studio while we check the tape.

- How did it go? - Well, I thought... First class.

- Very good indeed. - I thought I waffled a bit.

Oh no, you stonewalled superbly, Minister.

Time for a drink?

About the safeguards I've already introduced.

My new bureaucratic watchdog office, for instance.

Well, Minister, tt sounds as if we'll need a pack of watchdogs before very long.

But thank you very much.

In next week's topic...

- How was I? - Splendid, Minister, Splendid.

Very dignified. Very suitable.

Yes, Sir Humphrey, I congratulate you.

Jim is now perfectly house trained.

He says and does exactly what you tell him.

- If you'll excuse me, Mr. Weasel. - Weisel.

You just say everything the Civil Service programmes you to say.

What are you a man or a mouth?

Very amusing, Frank.

It must be hard for a Political Advisor to understand this,

but I am merely a Civil Servant,

I simply do as I am instructed by my master.

What happens when the Minister's a woman, what do you call her?

Yes, that's rather interesting.

We sought an answer

when I was Principal Private Secretary and Dr. Edith Summerskill,

as she then was, was appointed Minister in 1947.

I didn't quite like to refer to her as my Mistress.

- What was the answer? - We're still waiting for it.

It's under review, is it? Rome wasn't built in a day.

- These things take time. - I must be going.

- Me too. - May I remind you

we meet tomorrow morning at Paddington at 8?

- Where are we going? - Swansea, Minister.

You're addressing the Conference of Municipal Treasurers.

Oh, yes.

You're due in Newcastle to address the by-election meeting.

- So I am. - You can't do both.

- I can't do both. - That's a Civil Service junket.

- The by-election's important. - The by-election is important.

The Conference is in your diary. They expect you in Swansea.

They expects you in Newcastle.

- How come he's double booked? - How come I'm double booked?

Well, largely because nobody told me about Newcastle.

- Why didn't you tell him? - Why didn't you?

I can't remember everything.

Frank, I think I'd better go to Swansea.

- Is that a decision? - Yes, that's final.

The P.M. Expects you to go to Newcastle.

The P.M?

I think I'd better go to Newcastle, Bernard.

- Is that a decision, Jim? - Yes, that's final.

- Now I'm going home. - Is that a decision?

No, quite seriously...

I think you've made the wrong decision.

Your visit to Swansea's been announced.

- You can't get out of it. - Oh, Lord!

Find a way of getting me from Swansea to Newcastle.

Car, train, helicopter, anything. I'll have to do both.

And now I'm going home, and that is final!

- Finally final? - Absolutely finally.

If you could do all your boxes tonight.

There's all the M&A Committee papers and all the letters.

And if you're a good boy, you'll get a sweetie.

Good.

Hello, darling.

- Thanks, George. Goodnight. - Goodnight, sir.

- Hello, darling. - Hello.

Leaving me at last?

It's our anniversary tomorrow, have you forgotten?

No, of course I haven't forgotten.

We're going to Paris. Oh, my God!

- You had forgotten. - No, I hadn't.

No, it's just that I... I didn't... I'm double...

- I'm going to Swansea tomorrow. - Swansea?

And Newcastle.

I don't want to go there for my anniversary.

No. Not you. Just me.

- Cancel them! - I can't.

What are you doing?

Cancel them! We booked this three months ago.

- I can't. - Then I'll go to Paris without you.

Hello, Bernard... Yes, it's me...

I'm going to have to cancel tomorrow.

Swansea and Newcastle.

You see, it's my wife's wedding anniversary tomorrow...

It's yours too!

Yeah, and mine too actually. Yes, it is.

What do you mean, Coincidence? Don't be silly.

Anyway, I'm going to Paris tomorrow and that's final.

Yes, I said that before, but this time it is final!

You'll just have to cope as best as you can.

Yes?

Yes... definitely...

Yes...

Is that clear?

Right!

We're going to Paris.

No, I'm going to Swansea and Newcastle.

- See me on TV tonight? - I saw somebody who looked like you.

- What's that meant to mean? - Nothing.

Frank says I've become a Civil Service mouthpiece.

- Yes. - What do you mean, yes?

- Well... yes. - You mean you agree?

- Of course. - What do you mean, of course?

You could have hired and actor to say it all for you.

And why not just sign your letters with a rubber stamp?

Or get an Assistant Principal to sign them for you.

They write them anyway.

Assistant Principals do not write my letters!

Under Secretaries do that.

I rest my case, my lord.

- You think I've become a puppet? - Yes, I do.

Get Miss Piggy to do your job. She's prettier.

I don't know what to do.

I'm just swamped by the work.

Oh, Annie, I'm so depressed.

As we're not going to Paris,

let's at least go out for a quiet little dinner tonight.

No, I can't.

Bernard's told me to get through three boxes.

What do you mean, Bernard's told you?

When you edited "Reform" you were quite different.

You went in, you told people what to do,

and you got what you wanted!

Either you get them by the throat or they get you by the throat!

How many articles did you blue-pencilled and tear up in those days?

Dozens.

And how many official papers have you torn up?

- I'm not allowed to! - Not allowed to?

Darling, you're the Minister, you can do anything you like.

No, Humphrey, I've decided that Frank was right.

And Bob McKenzie too.

The National Data Base has got to be organised differently.

Yes, Minister.

We want all possible built in safeguards.

- Yes, Minister. - Right away.

What precisely do you mean, right away?

I mean right away.

I see, you mean right away?

- Got it in one, Humphrey. - Well, Minister...

We are still in the early months of this Government.

And there's an awful lot to get...

The Data Base rules have got to be changed. Now!

- But you can't, Minister. - Yes, I can, I'm the Minister.

Yes, indeed you are, Minister.

And quite an excellent Minister at that.

Never mind the soft soap, Humphrey.

I want all citizens to have a right to see their own files

and I want legislation to make unauthorised access, illegal.

- Very well. It shall be done. - Good.

But the legislation necessary to give the public the right

to take legal action is extremely complicated

and would take considerable time to draft,

promulgate and enact.

Legislation isn't necessary for a citizen to see his own files, is it?

- No... - Then, we'll start with that.

I suppose we could manage that slightly quicker,

but there's an awful lot of administrative problems as well.

This must have been examined before.

The Data Base has been in preparation for years.

There must have been discussions about it.

- Yes, indeed. - What conclusions were reached?

Humphrey, what conclusions were reached?

What did my predecessor want to do about it?

Humphrey, can you hear me?

My lips are sealed.

I beg your pardon?

I am not at liberty to reveal previous plans, Minister.

Why not?

Would you like everything that you have said in this office

to be revealed subsequently to one of your opponents?

I see. No.

We cannot give your opponents political ammunition against you.

But Tom Sargent was my predecessor.

It isn't a party political matter surely?

It's a matter of principle. It just wouldn't be...

I see and we don't want to do anything that wouldn't be...

No.

- Oh, excuse me, Minister. - Yes, Bernard?

A slight problem, Minister.

Because of the adverse...

not entirely favourable press reaction to your interview,

the other Channel wants you for their programme.

- Say no. - No?

- Yes, no. - Yes no?

- Yes, say no! That's final. - If that's what you want.

But they would go ahead with the item

and nobody would be there to state your case.

No? Okay, yes.

No, okay, yes...

- Oh, I see what you mean. - Yes.

Finally final?

Thank you, Bernard.

What am I going to tell them about safeguards. Humphrey?

Perhaps you could remind them, Minister,

that Rome wasn't built in a day?

Tom.

- Oh, my dear fellow. - Mind if I join you?

No, of course not.

Well, how are you enjoying being in opposition?

How are you enjoying being in Government?

Well, not as much as I expected, actually.

- Well, not at the moment. - Humphrey got you under control?

It's so hard to get things done.

- Did you manage to get things done? - Oh, almost nothing.

When I did cotton on to his technique, there was the election.

- Technique? - Stalling technique.

- Stalling technique? - It comes in five stages.

First, he'll tell you there's lots of things to be getting on with.

- He told me that this morning. - Quite.

Then, if you still persist, he'll say something like

"Ah, yes, Minister, I quite appreciate the intention,

certainly something ought to be done,

but are you sure this is the right way to achieve it?...

I must make a note of this.

Now, if you are still undeterred, he will shift his ground.

He will shift from telling you how to do it

to when you should do it.

I mean, he'll say,

"Now, Minister, this is not the right time, for all sorts of reasons".

- And Ministers settle for that? - Well, lots do.

And if you don't, he'll say that the policy "has run into difficulties".

- Such as? - Technical, political, legal...

Legal are the best sort.

He can make those totally incomprehensible.

And with any luck, this technique will have lasted for three years

and you'll be at the final stage when he says:

"We're getting very close to the next general election.

Are you sure you can get this policy through?"

How has it taken three years?

Sir Humphrey will do absolutely nothing unless you chase him.

And you've got far too much to do.

You see, it's what they call "creative inertia".

What's the policy you're trying to get through anyway?

I'm trying to make this National Integrated Data Base

a bit less of a Big Brother.

Oh, is that what it is?

- He's told you it's all quite new? - Well, yes.

My dear fellow, we spent years on that.

We had a White Paper when they called election.

I've done it all.

- And administrative problems? - I've solved them.

And you couldn't see any of the previous papers?

No wonder. He's wiped the slate clean.

D'you know what his next move's gonna be?

- No. - How many boxes have you got?

- Three? Four? - Five.

Did he tell you not to worry about the fifth one?

- Yes. - Right. I'll take a bet.

You will find at the bottom of the fifth box a memo

which explains exactly why any new moves on the Data Base

must be delayed. If you don't find it,

he won't do another blind thing, but in six month's time

he'll say that he has told you all about it.

Tom, you were in office for years. You know all the Civil Service tricks.

Not all, old boy. Just a few hundred.

And how do you make them do something they don't want to do?

My dear fellow, if I knew that I wouldn't be in Opposition.

But I don't get it. Tom's the opposition.

Why did he tell you all this?

- The Opposition aren't the opposition. - Of course not. Silly of me.

- They are called that. - They're the opposition in exile.

The Civil Service are the Opposition in residence.

Now then, bottom of the fifth box, Tom said.

But you can't really do anything.

Oh, can't I?

Tom's given me all his papers on the Data Base.

Three year's worth!

Marvellous!

Found it.

It had slipped into an 80 page report

on Welfare procedures.

"Safeguards still under discussion...

programme not finalised...

nothing precipitate...

failing instructions to the contrary, propose await developments...

Typical!

- Ring Humphrey and tell him. - I'll see him first thing.

- Ring him now! - It's two o'clock.

- He'll be fast asleep. - Exactly!

Annie.

Why should he be asleep and you're still working?

He's had you on the run. Now it's your turn.

I couldn't do that.

What's his number?

It was in the fifth box, you couldn't have got to it earlier.

True.

Yes?

Humphrey, sorry to ring you so late.

I didn't interrupt you in the middle of dinner, did I?

No, we finished dinner some while ago.

- Oh, good. - What's the time?

Er, two a.m.

- Good God, what's the crisis? - No. No crisis.

I'm going through my boxes, and I knew you'd still be hard at it.

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Nose to the grindstone.

Well, I've just come across this Data Base paper.

Oh, you've found... you've read it!

Thought I'd better tell you I'm not happy with it.

You'll welcome an opportunity to work on something else.

- You didn't mind my calling you? - No. Not at all Minister.

Always a pleasure to hear from you.

I meant to tell him to see me about it before Cabinet.

Don't ring him now.

You're right, it is a bit late.

Give him another ten minutes.

If you could be fairly quick.

- He does have Cabinet at 10. - I can be very quick.

The word "No" is one of the shortest in the language.

Sorry to be so late. Lots of reading to do this morning.

Good morning, Bernard. Thank you, George.

Now, Humphrey, the Data Base.

Have you drafted your safeguards?

Well, Minister, I quite appreciate your intention

and fully agree that there is need for safeguards,

but is this

- the right way to achieve it? - Well, it's my way.

One.

That's my decision, anyway.

Well this is not really the time for all sorts of reasons.

Two.

It's the perfect time.

Safeguards should be developed alongside systems,

that's common sense.

We tried all this before and we ran into all sorts of difficulties.

Three.

Such as?

- Well, technical, for instance. - No. No problems.

We can use the same basic file interrogation programme

as the U.S. State Dept. And the Swedish Ministry of the Interior.

No problems there.

Yes, but there are also formidable administrative problems.

And all departments are affected.

- An interdepartmental committee... - No. No. No, Humphrey.

You'll find that the existing security procedures are adequate.

This is simply an extension. Anything more?

- Well, yes, Minister. - Legal problems, for example?

- Yes, Minister. - Good, good.

- Do we have the legal power? - I'll answer it. We have.

All personnel affected are bound by their staff agreements.

Yes, but Minister, there will be a need for extra staffing.

Will you be able to get it through the parliamentary party?

Yes, I'm quite sure. Anything further?

I don't think so. We can go ahead then.

You're very silent.

You don't seem to realise the amount of work that's involved.

Haven't you examined safeguards before?

Under another government?

I remember some written answers to parliamentary questions.

Well, in the first place as we've agreed that question is not...

In the second place, if there had been investigations,

which there haven't or not necessarily,

or I am not at liberty to say whether there have,

there would have been a project team, which,

had it existed, on which I cannot comment,

which would now have disbanded if it had existed

and the members returned to do their departments,

if indeed there had been any such members.

Or not as the case may be.

- Quite so, Minister. - I want these safeguards

made available immediately.

- Minister, it is not possible. - It is.

- It isn't. - It is.

- It isn't. - It is.

- It isn't. - 'Tis, 'tis, 'tis, 'tis, 'tis, 'tis.

Just to remind you, you have Cabinet at 10.00,

the Anglo American Society at one,

and the "World in Focus" interview, this evening.

- Can't you get me out of the lunch? - It's been announced.

I see... I suppose I...

- What's that you just said? - We can't get out of it.

It's been announced, it's in the programme.

Thank you, Bernard.

Thank you very much.

For what, Minister?

For everything, Bernard.

And our Man on the Spot tonight is the Right Honourable Jim Hacker,

Minister for Administrative Affairs,

the man at the heart of the Big Brother computer controversy.

He's talking to Godfrey Finch.

Minister, as you know there's been an outcry this week about

the dossier that the Civil Service bureaucracy has apparently

been building up on every citizen in this country.

Now, it's rumoured that this is not in fact, your own policy,

that you'd like to have safeguards for the individual citizen,

but that you are being totally frustrated at every stage

of the game by the Civil Service machine.

You know, Godfrey,

there's a lot of nonsense talked about the Civil Service.

It's a marvellous, efficient, professional organisation,

capable of enormous energy and speed.

It's staffed by a lot of talented, dedicated people

who do everything in their power to help the Government

make it's policies into law.

Well, thank you for the commercial, Minister.

Perhaps we can start the programme now?

The fact of the matter is that the Civil Service and I

are in complete accord over this whole business

and I'm happy to announce that we're now ready

to put our proposals into publication.

In fact, tonight I can say that from September the first,

every citizen of the U.K. will have the absolute right

to inspect his personal file and check any information

that he has ever supplied to the Government.

Secondly,

no civil servant will be allowed to examine personal files

from another department, without written authority from a Minister.

And I shall be announcing in the House next week legislation

enabling citizens to take legal action against any civil servant

who gains unauthorised access to his file.

Encouraging, Minister.

Why did you not say so first, and put people's minds at rest?

I didn't believe that the Civil Service could meet our deadlines.

But they've convinced me that they can.

And, in fact, my Permanent Secretary

has staked his reputation on it.

And if not, heads will roll...

Anyway, Assistant Heads.

Thank you very much, Minister.

- It can't be done. - It's been announced on TV.

Bernard, what did you make of our Minister's performance?

Well, I... I think it's check mate, Sir Humphrey.

See me on the box last night, Humphrey?

Of course, Minister.

How was I? Good?

A most remarkable performance, Minister, if I may say so.

- You may, you may. - Thank you, Minister.

We have been working very hard all night,

and I'm happy to be able to tell you that we have come up

with some draft proposals which would enable you to achieve

your desired objectives by the stated dates.

Well done.

I told the nation how splendid you were and I was right.

- I had every confidence in you. - Quite so, Minister.

You must have had quite a night.

- Yes, Minister, quite a night! - Let's see your proposals.

Here they are.

And here are mine.

You have specific proposals too?

Oh, indeed I have.

Now, Humphrey, you read out what you've got on safeguards,

and I'll read out what I've got and we'll see how they compare.

"Personal data 1A:

Safeguards must be applied with reference to...

Two criteria.

The need to know and the right to know.

1A1. The need to know

only those officials...

for whom the information was submitted may be deemed,

prime facie, to have a need to know.

We seem to be of the same mind, Humphrey.

Indeed, Minister.

Where did those proposals come from?

Minister?

Can you hear me?

Where did those proposals come from?

Humphrey, my lips are sealed.