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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:36,136 --> 00:00:37,729 Number one's Michael. 2 00:00:37,771 --> 00:00:39,849 The others are numbered in the order we unearthed them. 3 00:00:39,873 --> 00:00:42,968 So, Michael and remains two and three were in grave A, 4 00:00:43,010 --> 00:00:44,638 remains four and five were in grave B 5 00:00:44,678 --> 00:00:47,546 and remains six and seven were in grave C. 6 00:00:47,581 --> 00:00:52,383 So, to reiterate, they all underwent some form of dismemberment. 7 00:00:52,419 --> 00:00:53,887 Remarkably few bones missing. 8 00:00:53,921 --> 00:00:56,652 Teeth, nails, small bones, they're all there. 9 00:00:56,690 --> 00:00:59,660 Four and five are missing vertebrae from the neck, that's all. 10 00:00:59,693 --> 00:01:01,525 But they were both decapitated, 11 00:01:01,562 --> 00:01:03,740 presumably to fit into grave B, which was smaller than the other two. 12 00:01:03,764 --> 00:01:05,460 And that would account for it. 13 00:01:05,499 --> 00:01:07,343 Hacking away at the neck, you're going to dislodge something. 14 00:01:07,367 --> 00:01:08,611 The ropes I've put by the wrists, 15 00:01:08,635 --> 00:01:10,246 it's because that's where they were found. 16 00:01:10,270 --> 00:01:12,967 Arms were behind the back, presumably tied. 17 00:01:13,006 --> 00:01:15,339 A very unnatural position to be in if they weren't. 18 00:01:15,375 --> 00:01:18,436 Similarly, I've put the belts and fragments of knotted cloth 19 00:01:18,478 --> 00:01:20,743 next to the heads because that's where they were found. 20 00:01:20,781 --> 00:01:24,081 Round the head, under the chin, tied at the top. 21 00:01:24,117 --> 00:01:27,610 Presumably to keep their mouths shut. Draw your own conclusions. 22 00:01:27,654 --> 00:01:29,919 Some had fallen away since decomposition, 23 00:01:29,957 --> 00:01:33,792 but they were close enough to suggest that's what they were used for. 24 00:01:43,036 --> 00:01:44,868 Are you all right? 25 00:01:44,905 --> 00:01:48,137 You know what the forensic archaeologist and Denise said, 26 00:01:48,175 --> 00:01:50,906 about how none of them were buried at the same time? 27 00:01:50,944 --> 00:01:52,003 Yeah. 28 00:01:52,045 --> 00:01:53,377 They were all buried separately. 29 00:01:53,413 --> 00:01:55,973 - Even though they're in the same graves. - Yeah. 30 00:01:56,016 --> 00:01:58,713 We've been blithely talking, like assuming, 31 00:01:58,752 --> 00:02:01,745 he filled one grave up and then moved onto the next. 32 00:02:01,788 --> 00:02:03,188 But it doesn't make sense. 33 00:02:03,223 --> 00:02:05,089 You don't dig a grave and leave it open 34 00:02:05,125 --> 00:02:06,923 just in case you kill someone else later. 35 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:08,938 Even though you know you are going to kill someone else later, 36 00:02:08,962 --> 00:02:12,126 because you're a mad twat, you still tidy up between jobs. 37 00:02:12,165 --> 00:02:15,135 You just do, but that isn't everything. 38 00:02:15,168 --> 00:02:19,469 If he did fill each grave before he moved onto the next, 39 00:02:19,506 --> 00:02:22,567 there'd be three in two of the graves and one in the third, wouldn't there? 40 00:02:22,609 --> 00:02:23,770 Why? 41 00:02:23,810 --> 00:02:25,221 Because you'd fill each one up before you dug a new one. 42 00:02:25,245 --> 00:02:27,646 He didn't do that. Two of them weren't full 43 00:02:27,681 --> 00:02:30,344 and they were all as deep as each other, so why not? 44 00:02:30,384 --> 00:02:32,012 What if... 45 00:02:32,052 --> 00:02:34,631 Look, that cellar's tiny, right? He couldn't have dug another grave 46 00:02:34,655 --> 00:02:36,681 in there if he wanted to. It's too small, yeah? 47 00:02:36,723 --> 00:02:39,249 - Yeah. - So, he rotates. 48 00:02:39,292 --> 00:02:41,784 He kills the first victim, he digs a grave. 49 00:02:41,828 --> 00:02:44,423 He kills the second victim, he digs a grave. 50 00:02:44,464 --> 00:02:47,093 He kills the third victim, he digs a grave. 51 00:02:47,134 --> 00:02:48,659 He kills his fourth victim, it's like, 52 00:02:48,702 --> 00:02:50,694 "Ooh, shit, where am I going to stick this one?" 53 00:02:50,737 --> 00:02:53,730 So, thinking he's buried his victims nice and deep, which he did, 54 00:02:53,774 --> 00:02:56,710 he goes back to the first grave, grave A, 55 00:02:56,743 --> 00:02:58,302 thinking, "There's room in there." 56 00:02:58,345 --> 00:03:00,974 Victim number five, he puts in grave B. 57 00:03:01,014 --> 00:03:03,449 Victim number six goes in grave C. 58 00:03:03,483 --> 00:03:05,315 Then he gets to Michael, 59 00:03:05,352 --> 00:03:08,982 number seven, and he's triple-stacking in grave A. 60 00:03:09,022 --> 00:03:11,321 Which would make Michael 61 00:03:11,358 --> 00:03:13,953 the last victim, at least in that cellar. 62 00:03:13,994 --> 00:03:15,553 The point is, 63 00:03:15,595 --> 00:03:18,292 if Michael was buried last, it whittles our timescale down, 64 00:03:18,331 --> 00:03:21,699 because we know exactly when Michael was killed, so... 65 00:03:21,735 --> 00:03:26,139 We know our victims were killed between March, 1966, 66 00:03:26,173 --> 00:03:27,698 when the Bevans moved into that house, 67 00:03:27,741 --> 00:03:31,940 and June, 1977, when Helen helped Joe bury Michael. 68 00:03:31,978 --> 00:03:36,040 That would also mean remains three, the one at the bottom of the grave, 69 00:03:36,083 --> 00:03:38,780 Michael, grave A, was buried in, was the first victim. 70 00:03:39,553 --> 00:03:40,987 Yeah. Yeah. It would. 71 00:03:41,021 --> 00:03:43,957 And if we could work out the order graves B and C were dug in, 72 00:03:43,990 --> 00:03:45,925 we'd know the order they were all buried in 73 00:03:45,959 --> 00:03:48,758 and, presumably, therefore the order they were killed in. 74 00:03:48,795 --> 00:03:50,661 And grave B was the smallest 75 00:03:50,697 --> 00:03:52,928 because he had to decapitate them to get them in, 76 00:03:52,966 --> 00:03:54,867 which might suggest that was dug last, 77 00:03:54,901 --> 00:03:57,166 because he'd gone and left himself not so much room. 78 00:03:57,204 --> 00:03:59,833 The whole thing is speculative bollocks, of course. 79 00:03:59,873 --> 00:04:02,399 Now all we still have to do is find out who they all are. 80 00:04:02,442 --> 00:04:04,604 Oh, damn. Can you? 81 00:04:07,380 --> 00:04:08,678 Denise, hi. 82 00:04:08,715 --> 00:04:11,116 No, it's Gill. Uh, she's driving. Do you want her? 83 00:04:15,322 --> 00:04:18,087 - I can. I'll tell her. - What? 84 00:04:18,125 --> 00:04:20,959 They've found human remains under the floorboards 85 00:04:20,994 --> 00:04:22,622 in Eunice and Joe's bedroom. 86 00:04:26,266 --> 00:04:29,259 So, I want to talk to you about the cellar again, Joe. 87 00:04:29,302 --> 00:04:31,567 I know, I've asked you this question before, 88 00:04:31,605 --> 00:04:34,575 but I'm going to ask you again. 89 00:04:34,608 --> 00:04:37,601 Can you explain to me what you used the cellar for? 90 00:04:37,644 --> 00:04:38,907 Nothing. 91 00:04:38,945 --> 00:04:41,915 Like I said, Eunice used to potter about down there. 92 00:04:41,948 --> 00:04:46,113 And the kids went down there to muck about, from time to time. 93 00:04:46,153 --> 00:04:48,384 But I had no reason to go down there myself. 94 00:04:51,958 --> 00:04:53,984 Do you recognise this key, Joe? 95 00:04:54,027 --> 00:04:55,495 No. 96 00:04:55,529 --> 00:04:58,658 That is the key, the only key that we've found in your house, 97 00:04:58,698 --> 00:05:01,532 that opens the lock on the door into the cellar. 98 00:05:03,036 --> 00:05:04,527 So, can you explain to me, Joe, 99 00:05:04,571 --> 00:05:07,302 if you've never been in the cellar, 100 00:05:07,340 --> 00:05:10,572 why that key has got your fingerprints on it? 101 00:05:10,610 --> 00:05:12,579 Well, I could have picked it up. 102 00:05:14,347 --> 00:05:18,751 I could have touched it without knowing what it was for. 103 00:05:18,785 --> 00:05:22,244 Can you explain to me, Joe, if you've never been in the cellar, 104 00:05:22,289 --> 00:05:25,782 why your fingerprints are on the inside of the cellar door? 105 00:05:25,826 --> 00:05:27,658 Right, right, right. 106 00:05:27,694 --> 00:05:33,065 Well, I say I've never been in. I have been in there. 107 00:05:33,099 --> 00:05:36,661 I mean, I never went down there regularly. 108 00:05:37,537 --> 00:05:39,335 For any purpose. 109 00:05:40,674 --> 00:05:43,166 Can you explain to me, Joe, if that's the case, 110 00:05:43,210 --> 00:05:47,671 why your fingerprints are on both bolts on the inside of the cellar door? 111 00:05:47,714 --> 00:05:49,114 I've never... 112 00:05:50,684 --> 00:05:51,708 They're not. 113 00:05:54,588 --> 00:05:55,988 I don't know. 114 00:05:59,659 --> 00:06:02,390 I have not been down in that cellar, not for years. 115 00:06:02,429 --> 00:06:06,161 Well, fingerprints hang around for a long time, Joe, 116 00:06:06,199 --> 00:06:07,997 if nobody wipes them off. 117 00:06:08,668 --> 00:06:10,159 You'd be surprised. 118 00:06:10,203 --> 00:06:14,368 So, can you explain to me why you were locking yourself in the cellar, 119 00:06:14,407 --> 00:06:17,969 however many years ago it was, the last time that you did it? 120 00:06:21,381 --> 00:06:24,442 Joe, why were you locking yourself in the cellar? 121 00:06:24,484 --> 00:06:25,952 I'm not saying I was. 122 00:06:25,986 --> 00:06:29,855 No, Joe, I am. I'm saying that you were locking yourself in the cellar, 123 00:06:29,890 --> 00:06:33,088 because why else would your fingerprints be on both bolts? 124 00:06:33,126 --> 00:06:35,118 How could you be doing anything 125 00:06:35,161 --> 00:06:37,687 other than locking yourself in the cellar? 126 00:06:39,399 --> 00:06:40,492 Joe? 127 00:06:45,272 --> 00:06:48,174 We also found, as I've explained to you before, 128 00:06:48,208 --> 00:06:51,667 in the cellar, a mattress, a double-sized mattress. 129 00:06:51,711 --> 00:06:54,237 Now, I've shown you a picture of this mattress before. 130 00:06:54,281 --> 00:06:56,614 I'm going to show it to you again now. 131 00:06:58,018 --> 00:07:00,249 You said that you didn't recognise it. 132 00:07:02,622 --> 00:07:07,583 Do you still not recognise it, now you've had time to think about it? 133 00:07:07,627 --> 00:07:12,531 Joe, can you explain to me, if you don't recognise it, 134 00:07:12,565 --> 00:07:15,364 why it's got traces of your semen all over it? 135 00:07:18,405 --> 00:07:20,033 Joe? 136 00:07:23,276 --> 00:07:24,403 Well... 137 00:07:25,612 --> 00:07:27,103 What? 138 00:07:27,747 --> 00:07:29,147 I might have... 139 00:07:30,250 --> 00:07:32,082 You might have what, Joe? 140 00:07:32,118 --> 00:07:35,748 Locked myself in there to have... 141 00:07:39,159 --> 00:07:40,684 You know... 142 00:07:41,161 --> 00:07:42,720 Now and again. 143 00:07:42,762 --> 00:07:44,025 On the mattress? 144 00:07:44,631 --> 00:07:45,631 Yeah. 145 00:07:47,367 --> 00:07:50,132 OK. So, you locked yourself in the cellar 146 00:07:50,170 --> 00:07:52,696 to go and masturbate on this mattress? 147 00:07:52,739 --> 00:07:55,231 - Is that what you're telling me? - Yeah. 148 00:07:55,275 --> 00:07:57,244 OK, Joe. 149 00:07:57,277 --> 00:07:58,836 You'll appreciate, 150 00:07:58,878 --> 00:08:01,438 given the nature of what we found buried in the cellar, 151 00:08:01,481 --> 00:08:03,950 that everything else that we found in there has been sent for 152 00:08:03,984 --> 00:08:06,715 every kind of forensic analysis that we have available to us. 153 00:08:06,753 --> 00:08:09,120 And when this mattress was analysed, 154 00:08:09,155 --> 00:08:12,284 not only did we find your DNA in the semen, 155 00:08:12,325 --> 00:08:14,817 we also found traces of blood on this mattress. 156 00:08:14,861 --> 00:08:17,763 So, can you explain to me, Joe, 157 00:08:17,797 --> 00:08:22,428 how the DNA from the blood traces that were found on this mattress 158 00:08:22,469 --> 00:08:25,928 match exactly the DNA of four of the seven young male adults 159 00:08:25,972 --> 00:08:28,032 that we found buried under your cellar floor? 160 00:08:28,675 --> 00:08:30,667 She's good, isn't she? 161 00:08:30,710 --> 00:08:32,679 Well, she's trained. 162 00:08:34,314 --> 00:08:36,943 Joe, can you explain that to me? 163 00:08:39,552 --> 00:08:40,645 No. 164 00:08:40,687 --> 00:08:43,179 We got lucky with those stains. 165 00:08:43,223 --> 00:08:45,158 A cold, dry cellar. 166 00:08:45,191 --> 00:08:47,319 You don't get one of them every day. 167 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:49,693 The head and the hands are missing. 168 00:08:49,729 --> 00:08:53,689 The body was rolled in a carpet and wedged, very wedged, 169 00:08:53,733 --> 00:08:55,599 sideways, between the joists. 170 00:08:55,635 --> 00:08:57,536 We'll have confirmation from the lab tomorrow, 171 00:08:57,570 --> 00:09:02,338 but the remains, such as they are, are those of a young female adult. 172 00:09:02,375 --> 00:09:05,038 - Sheila. - Well, we'll see. 173 00:09:05,078 --> 00:09:06,546 Phil Cairns' statement? 174 00:09:06,579 --> 00:09:09,174 Still ploughing through the files in the basement at DHQ. 175 00:09:09,215 --> 00:09:10,877 - Just you? - Me and Becky. 176 00:09:10,917 --> 00:09:14,115 Can we assign one more officer to looking for these documents? 177 00:09:14,154 --> 00:09:15,464 If this statement's gone with the wind, 178 00:09:15,488 --> 00:09:17,286 I want to know sooner rather than later. 179 00:09:17,323 --> 00:09:18,985 Sure. 180 00:09:19,025 --> 00:09:21,494 What we have had a bit of luck this afternoon, ma'am. 181 00:09:21,528 --> 00:09:25,226 Now we're thinking we've narrowed down the timescale. 182 00:09:25,265 --> 00:09:30,465 Stephen Norgrove, 17 years old, reported missing October, 1974. 183 00:09:30,503 --> 00:09:32,734 Way up on our grid of possibles. 184 00:09:32,772 --> 00:09:36,971 We had South Yorks Police visit his mother, she's in Sheffield, 185 00:09:37,010 --> 00:09:39,241 to take oral swabs, which they've now done. 186 00:09:39,279 --> 00:09:40,770 But, what she also said, 187 00:09:40,814 --> 00:09:43,374 was the last time she spoke to her son was on the phone. 188 00:09:43,416 --> 00:09:45,976 He'd gone to Manchester looking for work 189 00:09:46,019 --> 00:09:48,113 and rang asking could she send him some money. 190 00:09:48,154 --> 00:09:53,650 The address he gave to send the postal order to, and she's 100%, 191 00:09:53,693 --> 00:09:57,095 it was the last time she spoke to him, was in Peveril Street. 192 00:09:57,130 --> 00:09:58,928 Like he was lodging there. 193 00:09:58,965 --> 00:10:00,263 Have we fast-tracked the swab? 194 00:10:00,300 --> 00:10:02,292 Yeah, yeah. We should have something tomorrow. 195 00:10:02,335 --> 00:10:03,963 Have we got his MFH file? 196 00:10:04,003 --> 00:10:06,615 There isn't one. His name came to us from the Missing Persons Helpline, 197 00:10:06,639 --> 00:10:08,107 like most of them. 198 00:10:08,141 --> 00:10:12,010 We've now traced and swabbed for DNA or in the process of doing, 199 00:10:12,045 --> 00:10:14,446 the parents or siblings of 211 possibles, 200 00:10:14,481 --> 00:10:18,043 on the new shorter grid, out of 467. 201 00:10:18,084 --> 00:10:20,679 And still no matches? 202 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,020 Do we need to inform the next of kin that it's Sheila? 203 00:10:24,057 --> 00:10:26,993 I mean, flag it up that it's likely to be her? 204 00:10:28,595 --> 00:10:29,654 Helen? 205 00:10:29,696 --> 00:10:31,062 Oh, God, yes, of course. 206 00:10:31,097 --> 00:10:33,259 Um... Who's... 207 00:10:34,601 --> 00:10:36,069 Can you, Janet? 208 00:10:37,670 --> 00:10:40,799 Is she... Is... Where did Witness Protection put her? 209 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,639 They didn't. I did. She's at the Plaza Inn in Chadderton. 210 00:10:43,676 --> 00:10:46,578 We're paying for it. Well, you are. The investigation is. 211 00:10:46,613 --> 00:10:47,945 Good. 212 00:10:47,981 --> 00:10:52,681 And Joe. Um... Let's wait for definite confirmation of her ID. 213 00:10:52,719 --> 00:10:55,712 We'll tell him tomorrow, before you carry on interviewing him, Rachel. 214 00:10:56,556 --> 00:10:57,819 Good. Thank you. 215 00:10:57,857 --> 00:10:59,587 Night-night. Off you go. 216 00:10:59,626 --> 00:11:02,323 I know it doesn't always feel like we're moving forward, 217 00:11:02,362 --> 00:11:05,264 but, believe me, we are. You're all marvellous. 218 00:11:07,100 --> 00:11:08,711 Except the little death-wish tosser 219 00:11:08,735 --> 00:11:10,670 who's been talking to the lovely journalists. 220 00:11:15,775 --> 00:11:17,607 Nice interview, by the way. 221 00:11:17,644 --> 00:11:18,907 - Yeah? - Mmm. 222 00:11:18,945 --> 00:11:20,436 It'll be nicer when he coughs. 223 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,178 I was waiting for you to ask him why he... 224 00:11:24,217 --> 00:11:25,708 What? Why he what? 225 00:11:25,752 --> 00:11:28,916 - Why he wanked on his mattress. - Oh, shut up! 226 00:11:28,955 --> 00:11:30,787 "That's attractive, Joe. But why? 227 00:11:30,823 --> 00:11:34,282 "No, really, why would you? To make it smell better? 228 00:11:34,327 --> 00:11:38,025 "Or because you'd mistaken it for a toilet or a tissue?" 229 00:11:38,831 --> 00:11:39,992 I'm not discussing it. 230 00:11:40,033 --> 00:11:42,002 He really hadn't thought it through. 231 00:11:42,035 --> 00:11:43,230 Well, I hadn't. 232 00:11:43,269 --> 00:11:45,431 I mean... You're right. Why would you? 233 00:11:45,471 --> 00:11:47,736 Well, you wouldn't. I mean, we wouldn't. 234 00:11:47,774 --> 00:11:50,801 - Obviously, because we're ladies. - Yeah, and we don't wank. 235 00:11:50,843 --> 00:11:51,936 We don't fart. 236 00:11:51,978 --> 00:11:53,844 We don't get drunk and we don't swear. 237 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,281 - Eh, have you rung Sean? - Piss off. 238 00:11:56,849 --> 00:11:58,215 No, no. 239 00:11:58,251 --> 00:12:01,221 I'm not prying. You do what you like. But four nights? 240 00:12:01,254 --> 00:12:04,782 He must think something, four nights, and you don't go home. 241 00:12:04,824 --> 00:12:06,588 He doesn't own me. 242 00:12:06,626 --> 00:12:10,324 I want him to realise that and, when he does, he might... bugger off. 243 00:12:12,398 --> 00:12:13,627 Sorry... 244 00:12:13,666 --> 00:12:16,966 Am I all right sleeping round at your house tonight again? 245 00:12:17,003 --> 00:12:18,301 Yes. 246 00:12:24,844 --> 00:12:28,576 I rang her twice earlier and I texted her, but I've heard nothing back. 247 00:12:31,918 --> 00:12:33,113 Helen? 248 00:12:34,687 --> 00:12:35,814 Er, no. 249 00:12:35,855 --> 00:12:38,324 I appreciate that. Thank you. 250 00:12:39,759 --> 00:12:41,159 Sorry to wake you... 251 00:12:42,462 --> 00:12:43,395 Oops. 252 00:12:43,429 --> 00:12:45,159 She's not back at Louise's. 253 00:12:45,198 --> 00:12:47,064 She's definitely not checked out. 254 00:12:47,100 --> 00:12:48,864 - And you've not seen her? - No. 255 00:12:48,901 --> 00:12:50,426 But I've only been on since 7:00. 256 00:12:51,537 --> 00:12:52,630 We're police officers. 257 00:12:52,672 --> 00:12:54,231 You couldn't let us into her room? 258 00:12:56,843 --> 00:12:58,038 Thank you. 259 00:12:59,012 --> 00:13:00,605 Helen? Helen... 260 00:13:00,647 --> 00:13:02,479 Oh, shit. Rach. 261 00:13:02,515 --> 00:13:04,950 Helen? Helen? 262 00:13:04,984 --> 00:13:07,078 Helen, can you hear me? 263 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:08,418 Helen, it's Rachel and Janet. 264 00:13:08,454 --> 00:13:10,616 Ambulance. Plaza Inn, Chadderton. 265 00:13:10,657 --> 00:13:11,681 Helen? 266 00:13:11,724 --> 00:13:14,558 Um... I'm an off-duty police officer, Janet Scott. 267 00:13:14,594 --> 00:13:16,085 Helen, can you hear me? 268 00:13:16,129 --> 00:13:20,624 Address, 20, Clough Road, Oldham. OL5 9JK. 269 00:13:20,667 --> 00:13:22,226 Yeah, I've got a lady. 270 00:13:22,268 --> 00:13:25,238 She's unconscious. She's taken an overdose. 271 00:13:25,271 --> 00:13:26,271 Shit. 272 00:13:30,943 --> 00:13:32,138 Oh, shit. 273 00:13:33,613 --> 00:13:35,377 Hello. 274 00:13:35,415 --> 00:13:36,542 Hi, it's me. 275 00:13:37,684 --> 00:13:39,277 Where are you? 276 00:13:39,319 --> 00:13:41,797 I had to bring somebody into hospital, a witness, she's taken an overdose. 277 00:13:41,821 --> 00:13:45,781 So, I'm just ringing to say that I may as well stay at Janet's again tonight. 278 00:13:45,825 --> 00:13:47,293 She's here, as well. 279 00:13:47,327 --> 00:13:48,570 God knows what time we're going to be here till. So... 280 00:13:48,594 --> 00:13:50,187 Why are you stopping at Janet's? 281 00:13:50,229 --> 00:13:52,721 Because it's... It's just easier. 282 00:13:52,765 --> 00:13:54,358 Janet's house is 10 minutes, 283 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,426 a quarter of an hour max, from our house. 284 00:13:56,469 --> 00:13:58,314 You don't know how knackered I get on a big inquiry 285 00:13:58,338 --> 00:13:59,648 and this is the mother of all of them. 286 00:13:59,672 --> 00:14:00,696 I need to talk to you. 287 00:14:01,341 --> 00:14:02,400 What's it about? 288 00:14:03,009 --> 00:14:04,409 Us. 289 00:14:04,444 --> 00:14:05,468 This. 290 00:14:06,179 --> 00:14:07,442 Whatever's going on. 291 00:14:08,648 --> 00:14:13,484 Because... I'm... I'm struggling here, Rachel. 292 00:14:13,519 --> 00:14:17,479 Um... You'd rather be sleeping in a sleeping bag in the sitting room. 293 00:14:17,523 --> 00:14:19,253 And then you're sleeping over at your... 294 00:14:20,093 --> 00:14:22,494 Friend's for four days. 295 00:14:22,528 --> 00:14:23,528 OK. Right. 296 00:14:24,130 --> 00:14:25,792 We'll talk tomorrow. 297 00:14:25,832 --> 00:14:27,460 Right. Not on the phone. 298 00:14:28,368 --> 00:14:29,631 I want you here. 299 00:14:29,669 --> 00:14:31,262 Right. Of course. 300 00:14:31,304 --> 00:14:32,636 I want to know what's up. 301 00:14:32,672 --> 00:14:34,231 Nothing's up. 302 00:14:34,273 --> 00:14:37,641 I'm just... I'm... I'm just not used to... 303 00:14:38,244 --> 00:14:39,337 Oh, God. 304 00:14:39,379 --> 00:14:41,780 It's fine, it's fine. Everything's going to be fine. 305 00:14:43,816 --> 00:14:45,717 I'm just a bugger to live with. 306 00:14:45,752 --> 00:14:47,778 I know that doesn't make it any easier. 307 00:14:49,989 --> 00:14:51,457 I know I'm shit. 308 00:14:51,491 --> 00:14:53,323 I want to know what time you're gonna be here. 309 00:14:53,359 --> 00:14:55,851 Well, I can't give you a specific time. 310 00:14:55,895 --> 00:14:57,955 I want to know. 311 00:14:57,997 --> 00:15:01,126 Well, it depends on what time Godzilla lets us go. 312 00:15:01,167 --> 00:15:02,465 So I'll text you. I'll text you. 313 00:15:02,502 --> 00:15:04,742 And I'll let you know what a likely time is likely to be. 314 00:15:05,805 --> 00:15:07,000 All right? 315 00:15:07,039 --> 00:15:10,737 Why don't you just come home tonight? 316 00:15:10,777 --> 00:15:13,269 After you've finished doing whatever it is you're doing there. 317 00:15:16,983 --> 00:15:18,144 Eh? 318 00:15:19,252 --> 00:15:20,413 Yeah. All right. Fine. 319 00:15:21,020 --> 00:15:22,648 I'll be waiting. 320 00:15:22,688 --> 00:15:24,680 I've got to go, Sean. Someone has just turned up. 321 00:15:26,359 --> 00:15:28,055 Hi, Louise. Thanks for coming. 322 00:15:28,094 --> 00:15:30,427 Is she going to be all right? 323 00:15:30,463 --> 00:15:32,625 I don't think she was messing about. 324 00:15:32,665 --> 00:15:35,829 She's through there. My colleague Janet, she's with her. 325 00:15:35,868 --> 00:15:37,029 She is conscious. 326 00:15:37,069 --> 00:15:38,435 They're doing some blood tests 327 00:15:38,471 --> 00:15:41,066 to assess if there's any long-term damage to the liver. 328 00:15:41,107 --> 00:15:43,440 They know what they're doing. She's in good hands. 329 00:15:59,926 --> 00:16:01,792 Hallelujah! Nice to see you. 330 00:16:01,828 --> 00:16:03,490 Oh... Whatever. 331 00:16:03,529 --> 00:16:05,054 Nice of you to pop in. 332 00:16:05,097 --> 00:16:07,817 Do you want to have this conversation or shall I just walk out again? 333 00:16:10,036 --> 00:16:11,197 How's your witness? 334 00:16:14,140 --> 00:16:15,403 Yeah, she's gonna be fine. 335 00:16:15,441 --> 00:16:19,503 You know, I've not seen you for four, five days. 336 00:16:19,545 --> 00:16:22,447 All I've had is shitty, stupid texts. 337 00:16:22,482 --> 00:16:24,793 "Oh, I've had too much to drink. Oh, I'm stopping at Janet's." 338 00:16:24,817 --> 00:16:26,046 For four nights? 339 00:16:27,420 --> 00:16:28,420 Basically... 340 00:16:30,389 --> 00:16:33,382 I'd like to know what's going on. 341 00:16:36,295 --> 00:16:37,295 OK. 342 00:16:39,665 --> 00:16:40,997 The thing is... 343 00:16:42,969 --> 00:16:44,301 This isn't working. 344 00:16:46,639 --> 00:16:49,040 And this isn't your fault. This is... 345 00:16:50,376 --> 00:16:52,607 It's mine, it's my fault, it's all my fault, 346 00:16:52,645 --> 00:16:53,765 I'm prepared to accept that. 347 00:16:54,580 --> 00:16:55,775 I'm not... 348 00:16:56,949 --> 00:16:58,144 It's not... 349 00:16:59,385 --> 00:17:00,512 I mean, it's me. 350 00:17:00,553 --> 00:17:02,181 It's all me. 351 00:17:02,221 --> 00:17:04,349 I'm nuts. I'm impossible. I just... 352 00:17:07,627 --> 00:17:09,255 I can't live like this. 353 00:17:10,029 --> 00:17:12,055 I love you to bits. 354 00:17:12,098 --> 00:17:15,125 Sean, you're brilliant, you're great. 355 00:17:15,167 --> 00:17:17,966 You're the nicest man in the world, but I just can't do this. 356 00:17:18,538 --> 00:17:19,471 24/7. 357 00:17:19,505 --> 00:17:21,406 I thought I could, but I can't. 358 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,342 No. No, I didn't think I could, I didn't... 359 00:17:25,912 --> 00:17:27,403 I didn't think about it. 360 00:17:29,181 --> 00:17:31,275 Which I think is, um... 361 00:17:32,485 --> 00:17:33,612 Is... 362 00:17:36,956 --> 00:17:38,288 I can't do this. 363 00:17:44,764 --> 00:17:45,959 What... 364 00:17:46,999 --> 00:17:48,433 Specifically 365 00:17:49,235 --> 00:17:52,330 is it you can't do? 366 00:17:58,077 --> 00:17:59,477 I want to be on my own. 367 00:18:07,420 --> 00:18:11,118 - So then what happened? - Well, he was upset, obviously. 368 00:18:12,558 --> 00:18:14,823 Then he said, "Why would you want to do that to me?" 369 00:18:14,860 --> 00:18:16,624 This isn't about you. 370 00:18:16,662 --> 00:18:18,528 - It is about me! - It's not. 371 00:18:18,564 --> 00:18:20,032 I'm here! 372 00:18:20,066 --> 00:18:23,161 I'm part of whatever's going on inside your stupid brain! 373 00:18:23,202 --> 00:18:25,899 Because whatever you do affects me! 374 00:18:25,938 --> 00:18:27,634 I've messed up. I'm sorry. 375 00:18:27,673 --> 00:18:31,110 I should have... I'm a mess. And you deserve better. 376 00:18:31,143 --> 00:18:33,169 But we've only been married five minutes. 377 00:18:33,212 --> 00:18:35,181 It's not your fault. 378 00:18:35,214 --> 00:18:38,981 I just don't get what's going on inside your head. 379 00:18:39,018 --> 00:18:40,509 I just... 380 00:18:41,821 --> 00:18:43,084 Can't do this. 381 00:18:45,157 --> 00:18:47,388 I... I gave up my flat. 382 00:18:49,161 --> 00:18:50,925 You're... 383 00:18:50,963 --> 00:18:55,424 What were you thinking walking down the aisle, saying the vows? 384 00:18:57,136 --> 00:19:00,129 - Nothing. - All the money we've spent. Eh? 385 00:19:00,806 --> 00:19:02,069 I screwed up. 386 00:19:02,108 --> 00:19:03,440 You've screwed up? 387 00:19:05,811 --> 00:19:08,940 So... What do I do now? 388 00:19:08,981 --> 00:19:10,158 I don't know. Anything you like. 389 00:19:10,182 --> 00:19:12,777 What do you expect me to do now? 390 00:19:12,818 --> 00:19:14,480 Did you just say anything I like? 391 00:19:16,055 --> 00:19:18,524 I don't even know what this is about, Rachel. 392 00:19:18,557 --> 00:19:19,684 I need my flat back. 393 00:19:20,993 --> 00:19:22,393 I'm sorry? 394 00:19:24,230 --> 00:19:26,028 You want me to move out? 395 00:19:28,267 --> 00:19:30,600 Well, I... 396 00:19:30,636 --> 00:19:33,606 Are you serious? Are you serious? 397 00:19:36,275 --> 00:19:37,675 I'm not going anywhere. 398 00:19:45,918 --> 00:19:47,113 All right. 399 00:19:50,856 --> 00:19:52,051 What are you doing? 400 00:19:52,091 --> 00:19:53,389 Where are you going? 401 00:20:00,633 --> 00:20:01,692 Where are you going? 402 00:20:02,868 --> 00:20:04,336 It's the middle of the night! 403 00:20:04,937 --> 00:20:06,235 You're mad. 404 00:20:09,008 --> 00:20:11,375 You are mad! You do know that, don't you? 405 00:20:12,545 --> 00:20:14,013 You mad bitch! 406 00:20:15,848 --> 00:20:17,976 Gosh. Well. 407 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:22,413 Blimey. 408 00:20:22,455 --> 00:20:24,219 - Shall I go and brush my teeth? - Yeah. 409 00:20:27,660 --> 00:20:32,257 She's trouble, that one. I've told you before. And we haven't got room. 410 00:20:32,298 --> 00:20:33,732 It'll resolve itself. 411 00:20:41,373 --> 00:20:42,397 Morning. 412 00:20:42,441 --> 00:20:44,307 What's that reckoned to be? 413 00:20:44,343 --> 00:20:46,778 Rachel. She smokes like this. 414 00:20:46,812 --> 00:20:48,110 Oh. 415 00:20:48,147 --> 00:20:50,707 Does she? 416 00:20:50,750 --> 00:20:54,084 Ma'am, DC Broadhurst just called from DHQ. They've found it. 417 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:55,850 Phil Cairns' statement from 1977. 418 00:20:55,888 --> 00:20:58,016 And the documents from the subsequent inquiry. 419 00:20:58,057 --> 00:20:59,423 Yes! 420 00:20:59,458 --> 00:21:02,087 It's interesting, though. It's dated July, 1977, so... 421 00:21:02,128 --> 00:21:05,064 - He didn't report it for seven months. - Mmm. 422 00:21:05,097 --> 00:21:08,261 Have I got a driver outside? Ring me as soon as you get that file. 423 00:21:14,373 --> 00:21:18,071 I can confirm that yesterday the remains of a teenage girl 424 00:21:18,110 --> 00:21:20,045 were found in the property. 425 00:21:20,079 --> 00:21:21,445 And that, this morning, 426 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,474 we have identified them as the remains of Sheila Anne Bevan, 427 00:21:25,518 --> 00:21:29,353 the eldest daughter of Joseph and Eunice Bevan. 428 00:21:29,388 --> 00:21:32,381 I can also confirm that we have now been able to identify 429 00:21:32,424 --> 00:21:35,986 one of the young adult males found buried in the cellar, 430 00:21:36,028 --> 00:21:38,998 as Stephen James Norgrove, 431 00:21:39,031 --> 00:21:44,493 who was 17 years old and came from the Attercliffe area of Sheffield. 432 00:21:44,537 --> 00:21:46,199 Thank you. 433 00:21:46,238 --> 00:21:48,950 Miss Zalinski, is it true that Helen Bartlett was in hospital last night 434 00:21:48,974 --> 00:21:50,875 and that she'd taken an overdose? 435 00:21:50,910 --> 00:21:53,778 Find out which news organisation he's with. 436 00:21:53,813 --> 00:21:57,375 There will be a further bulletin later on today. Thank you. 437 00:22:01,420 --> 00:22:05,653 They're fascinated with Helen, aren't they? They want blood. 438 00:22:05,691 --> 00:22:08,525 Normally, all they want to know is if we're any nearer charging anyone. 439 00:22:08,561 --> 00:22:10,860 - I am... - I don't doubt for a second 440 00:22:10,896 --> 00:22:12,421 you're doing your best, Julie, 441 00:22:12,464 --> 00:22:14,490 but you've got enough to worry about. 442 00:22:14,533 --> 00:22:18,493 I've tasked Professional Standards to find out who this mole is. 443 00:22:18,537 --> 00:22:21,063 No one on your team will even know it's happening. 444 00:22:24,109 --> 00:22:25,338 Hiya. 445 00:22:26,011 --> 00:22:27,604 I tell you what, 446 00:22:27,646 --> 00:22:30,514 this file with Phil Cairns' statement in it is a museum piece. 447 00:22:30,549 --> 00:22:32,017 Yeah. Well, it will be. 448 00:22:32,051 --> 00:22:34,850 It's shameful, it's appalling. 449 00:22:34,887 --> 00:22:36,651 They... We, ha-ha, 450 00:22:36,689 --> 00:22:39,352 visited the house, they had a look in the cellar. 451 00:22:39,391 --> 00:22:42,361 They asked a few questions. They found nothing. 452 00:22:42,394 --> 00:22:44,625 That's it. He was treated like some sort of 453 00:22:44,663 --> 00:22:47,497 deluded sexually-deviant teenage time-waster. 454 00:22:47,533 --> 00:22:49,900 - That's going to have repercussions. - Yeah. 455 00:22:49,935 --> 00:22:51,528 But does it implicate Joe Bevan? 456 00:22:51,570 --> 00:22:53,903 Oh, God, yeah, and Eunice. Very much so. 457 00:22:53,939 --> 00:22:55,840 - What about Helen? - Well... 458 00:22:55,875 --> 00:22:57,343 That's interesting. 459 00:22:58,544 --> 00:23:01,207 - How did she die? - It's impossible to tell. 460 00:23:02,848 --> 00:23:04,339 Was it them? 461 00:23:04,383 --> 00:23:07,353 We don't know. We've yet to link Joe, forensically, 462 00:23:07,386 --> 00:23:09,048 either with Sheila's death 463 00:23:09,088 --> 00:23:11,683 or with the bodies that were buried in the cellar, but... 464 00:23:11,724 --> 00:23:14,489 We have no reason to think it was anyone else, at the moment. 465 00:23:15,261 --> 00:23:18,493 Those two girls got convicted. 466 00:23:18,530 --> 00:23:21,500 Who had pushed that old woman into the canal in the wheelie bin. 467 00:23:21,533 --> 00:23:25,026 - Yeah. - Thirteen and fourteen years old. 468 00:23:27,206 --> 00:23:29,471 People think I know things. 469 00:23:30,175 --> 00:23:31,404 I didn't. 470 00:23:31,443 --> 00:23:33,412 I had no idea. 471 00:23:34,780 --> 00:23:37,113 Apart from Michael. 472 00:23:37,149 --> 00:23:39,050 We've had a few nasty phone calls 473 00:23:39,852 --> 00:23:42,947 and a parcel through the door. 474 00:23:42,988 --> 00:23:46,755 We do need to ask you some more questions, Helen, when you feel able, 475 00:23:46,792 --> 00:23:49,591 - down at Oldham. - Can you not ask them here? 476 00:23:49,628 --> 00:23:51,995 It's an interview we'd need to record. 477 00:24:09,048 --> 00:24:12,416 Ma'am, Stephen Norgrove's mother and brother are downstairs with the FLO. 478 00:24:12,451 --> 00:24:14,477 They've just been shown into the family room. 479 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:15,544 Thanks. 480 00:24:20,859 --> 00:24:22,293 You don't recognise him? 481 00:24:24,897 --> 00:24:27,093 His name is Stephen Norgrove. 482 00:24:27,132 --> 00:24:30,466 Steve? Steve Norgrove. Does that ring any bells? 483 00:24:31,937 --> 00:24:36,705 He stayed at your house in 1974. He was 17 years old. 484 00:24:38,377 --> 00:24:39,902 We know he was at your house 485 00:24:39,945 --> 00:24:42,744 because his mother sent him a postal order to your address. 486 00:24:42,781 --> 00:24:44,511 People came and went. 487 00:24:45,718 --> 00:24:47,482 It's a long time since. 488 00:24:51,357 --> 00:24:54,088 I want you to look carefully. Think about it. 489 00:24:57,496 --> 00:25:00,159 We also know he was at your house at some stage, 490 00:25:00,199 --> 00:25:03,033 because we found his body buried in your cellar. 491 00:25:04,937 --> 00:25:06,462 I'd like to see him. 492 00:25:06,505 --> 00:25:11,136 What you need to understand, Irene, is that what we found 493 00:25:11,910 --> 00:25:13,902 are remains. 494 00:25:13,946 --> 00:25:16,472 I saw Stephen yesterday morning and... 495 00:25:16,515 --> 00:25:20,077 We say remains, rather than a body, when we've... 496 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,088 Essentially, we've found a skeleton. 497 00:25:22,121 --> 00:25:23,953 I know that, love. 498 00:25:23,989 --> 00:25:26,686 I still want to see him. 499 00:25:26,725 --> 00:25:28,250 Of course you do. 500 00:25:28,293 --> 00:25:31,263 I'm showing you another photograph now, Joe. 501 00:25:31,997 --> 00:25:33,295 Do you recognise this lad? 502 00:25:35,701 --> 00:25:38,193 This photograph was taken in 1976. 503 00:25:38,971 --> 00:25:40,564 His name is Phil Cairns. 504 00:25:40,606 --> 00:25:43,405 Does that mean anything to you? Philip Cairns? 505 00:25:45,344 --> 00:25:48,246 Well, Mr Cairns came in to see us a few days ago. 506 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,512 And he says you do know him. 507 00:25:51,550 --> 00:25:55,282 Do you remember meeting him one evening near Piccadilly Station? 508 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,654 It was cold, it was January, there was snow on the ground. 509 00:25:58,690 --> 00:26:00,124 It was 1977. 510 00:26:02,694 --> 00:26:05,254 Do you remember inviting him back to your house? 511 00:26:05,998 --> 00:26:07,660 He had no money, nowhere to go 512 00:26:07,699 --> 00:26:11,329 and you offered him a bed for a night and a bite to eat. 513 00:26:12,237 --> 00:26:13,535 Do you remember that? 514 00:26:17,176 --> 00:26:18,735 How would you respond, Joe, 515 00:26:18,777 --> 00:26:22,509 if I told you that Mr Cairns, five days ago, came in here 516 00:26:22,548 --> 00:26:25,848 and told us that you and your wife tied him up, 517 00:26:25,884 --> 00:26:29,343 fastened a belt round his head, gagged him, stripped him naked 518 00:26:29,388 --> 00:26:32,051 and sexually assaulted him over a period of several days? 519 00:26:32,091 --> 00:26:34,651 - He's a liar. - I'm sorry? 520 00:26:36,028 --> 00:26:37,326 He's a liar. 521 00:26:39,498 --> 00:26:40,591 Are you all right, Joe? 522 00:26:43,102 --> 00:26:44,536 Has something upset you? 523 00:26:47,239 --> 00:26:49,367 What is it, Joe, that's upset you? 524 00:26:55,948 --> 00:26:57,314 Perhaps we should take a break. 525 00:27:00,385 --> 00:27:03,480 No. I'd like to know what has upset Joe. 526 00:27:03,522 --> 00:27:08,961 He's elderly, he's tired, he's ill, he's upset about Sheila. 527 00:27:09,761 --> 00:27:11,195 I think he needs to take a break. 528 00:27:16,468 --> 00:27:17,468 Yeah. Sure. 529 00:27:24,042 --> 00:27:25,738 - You should have pushed him. - Yeah. 530 00:27:25,777 --> 00:27:28,679 - I'm not criticising you. - No. I know. You're right. 531 00:27:28,714 --> 00:27:30,979 It's your call. Essentially, we've got him. 532 00:27:31,016 --> 00:27:32,314 We haven't got him. 533 00:27:32,351 --> 00:27:34,616 It's all circumstantial, even the mattress. 534 00:27:34,653 --> 00:27:36,383 You're right. I should have pushed him. 535 00:27:36,421 --> 00:27:37,565 We've got two eyewitness statements. 536 00:27:37,589 --> 00:27:38,989 - It's fine. - From 40 years ago. 537 00:27:39,024 --> 00:27:41,584 We've got a piss-head and a flake. 538 00:27:41,627 --> 00:27:44,222 No. It isn't fine. 539 00:27:44,263 --> 00:27:45,959 - I'm sorry. I shouldn't... - Look... 540 00:27:45,998 --> 00:27:47,990 I'm having a bad time with Sean. 541 00:27:48,700 --> 00:27:49,793 Right. 542 00:27:49,835 --> 00:27:51,463 So I don't mess up interviews. 543 00:27:51,503 --> 00:27:53,904 - I'm not saying you did, Rachel. - No, I am. 544 00:27:53,939 --> 00:27:55,999 I'm saying it. 545 00:27:56,041 --> 00:27:58,670 That wasn't an excuse. 546 00:27:58,710 --> 00:27:59,871 About Sean. I just... 547 00:27:59,912 --> 00:28:02,507 - I just thought I'd mention it. - OK. 548 00:28:04,983 --> 00:28:09,318 There are discrepancies. It's not clear to me, from that statement, 549 00:28:09,354 --> 00:28:12,085 that he's implicating anyone other than Joe and Eunice. 550 00:28:12,124 --> 00:28:15,185 He implicated Helen so unequivocally when you interviewed him, 551 00:28:15,227 --> 00:28:19,130 he even named her, but he could have got that from a newspaper. 552 00:28:19,164 --> 00:28:21,030 Here, it's vague. 553 00:28:21,066 --> 00:28:23,797 He mentions hearing children's voices. Once. 554 00:28:23,835 --> 00:28:25,827 Not even necessarily in the same room. 555 00:28:25,871 --> 00:28:29,035 He didn't see them. How could he? He was blindfolded. 556 00:28:29,074 --> 00:28:31,305 - He's misremembered it. - She's coming in, Helen. 557 00:28:31,343 --> 00:28:33,471 - She's following us on. - Good. 558 00:28:33,512 --> 00:28:35,674 A fascinating bit about how he escaped. 559 00:28:35,714 --> 00:28:38,707 Let's see what she has to say, both about what's in here 560 00:28:38,750 --> 00:28:41,219 and what Phil Cairns told us four days ago. 561 00:28:41,253 --> 00:28:43,051 And Rachel needs a copy of all this, as well. 562 00:28:43,088 --> 00:28:44,522 How's it going? 563 00:28:44,556 --> 00:28:46,582 Uh... Yeah. I'm just giving him half an hour. 564 00:28:46,625 --> 00:28:49,754 He got very upset when we kicked off by arresting him for Sheila's murder. 565 00:28:49,795 --> 00:28:51,127 Kind of went downhill from there. 566 00:28:51,163 --> 00:28:52,893 Upset? He's a psychopath. Get over it. 567 00:28:52,931 --> 00:28:55,059 Yeah, I know. I just... 568 00:28:55,100 --> 00:28:57,695 - It seemed appropriate. - Your call. 569 00:28:57,736 --> 00:29:00,262 Phil Cairns' statement, will you make her a copy? 570 00:29:00,305 --> 00:29:01,305 Sure. 571 00:29:07,179 --> 00:29:09,148 Any developments? 572 00:29:10,249 --> 00:29:12,411 He pranged his patrol car. 573 00:29:12,451 --> 00:29:13,783 He texted me. 574 00:29:13,819 --> 00:29:15,412 'Cause, obviously, that's my fault. 575 00:29:15,454 --> 00:29:18,754 Mmm. Telepathic kinesis. Is there no end to your talents? 576 00:29:18,790 --> 00:29:22,090 You're missing the action, kids. DNA match on two more bodies. 577 00:29:22,127 --> 00:29:25,529 Oh, and Helen Bartlett and her mousey little girlfriend have turned up. 578 00:29:25,564 --> 00:29:28,033 I think I'd be bothering with prostitutes and overdosing 579 00:29:28,066 --> 00:29:29,626 if I had to sleep with that every night. 580 00:29:32,004 --> 00:29:33,165 Joke. 581 00:29:34,373 --> 00:29:36,205 Dodson's looking for you. 582 00:29:46,685 --> 00:29:51,316 Joe Bevan's solicitor is asking to speak to the Senior Investigating Officer. 583 00:29:51,356 --> 00:29:55,054 - No, that's me. - Yes, I know, ma'am, I was just... 584 00:29:55,093 --> 00:29:56,356 Do you know what it's about? 585 00:29:57,796 --> 00:29:59,765 No. 586 00:29:59,798 --> 00:30:03,963 - I'm Julie Dodson. This is DCI Murray. - Superintendent. 587 00:30:08,674 --> 00:30:11,166 My client has indicated he wants to confess 588 00:30:11,209 --> 00:30:15,544 to the murders of the boys, men, you found buried in the cellar. 589 00:30:15,580 --> 00:30:17,606 He's written down what he believes 590 00:30:17,649 --> 00:30:21,552 are the names of the five remaining victims you discovered down there. 591 00:30:21,586 --> 00:30:23,748 He also wants to make it clear, however, 592 00:30:23,789 --> 00:30:26,054 that he did not kill Sheila, his daughter. 593 00:30:26,091 --> 00:30:28,253 He knows nothing about what happened to her. 594 00:30:28,293 --> 00:30:30,762 And that he was coerced and brainwashed 595 00:30:30,796 --> 00:30:33,356 into committing the crimes by his wife Eunice. 596 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,528 Is he prepared to make a statement to DC Bailey? 597 00:30:37,569 --> 00:30:38,730 - Yes. - Now? 598 00:30:38,770 --> 00:30:39,999 Yes. 599 00:30:41,673 --> 00:30:43,471 He's called Phil Cairns. 600 00:30:44,443 --> 00:30:46,344 Philip Cairns. 601 00:30:46,378 --> 00:30:49,075 You'd have been 12 at the time that he visited your house 602 00:30:49,114 --> 00:30:52,084 in Peveril Street, in the January of 1977. 603 00:30:52,818 --> 00:30:54,309 OK. 604 00:30:54,353 --> 00:30:56,515 He was homeless. He had no money. 605 00:30:56,555 --> 00:30:59,525 Joe, your dad, picked him up near Piccadilly Station 606 00:30:59,558 --> 00:31:02,995 and offered him food and shelter at your house. 607 00:31:03,028 --> 00:31:04,963 Was that normal at your house? 608 00:31:05,997 --> 00:31:08,125 People... lads... 609 00:31:08,166 --> 00:31:10,431 Came and went. 610 00:31:10,469 --> 00:31:12,461 I don't remember any of their names. 611 00:31:12,504 --> 00:31:16,532 I told you, they never stayed long and I never bothered with them. 612 00:31:16,575 --> 00:31:18,373 How would you react, Helen, if I told you 613 00:31:18,410 --> 00:31:20,936 that Phil is telling us, and this is partially corroborated 614 00:31:20,979 --> 00:31:25,007 by a statement that he made to the police shortly after the event, 615 00:31:25,050 --> 00:31:27,144 that he was plied with drink by your parents 616 00:31:27,185 --> 00:31:31,088 and, when he woke up, he'd been stripped naked, bound and gagged, 617 00:31:31,123 --> 00:31:35,584 and was sexually assaulted over several days in a darkened room 618 00:31:35,627 --> 00:31:39,155 and, during that time, he heard children's voices? 619 00:31:44,636 --> 00:31:46,571 There was an incident. 620 00:31:46,905 --> 00:31:48,271 Go on. 621 00:31:49,608 --> 00:31:52,203 People came there. 622 00:31:52,944 --> 00:31:54,378 We knew that. For sex. 623 00:31:56,982 --> 00:31:58,382 There was always people. 624 00:31:58,417 --> 00:32:02,115 People paid for all sorts of stuff, all the time. 625 00:32:06,124 --> 00:32:07,524 But, yeah. 626 00:32:09,494 --> 00:32:10,655 It could have been him. 627 00:32:11,563 --> 00:32:12,758 What could? 628 00:32:15,033 --> 00:32:17,366 One night... Right? 629 00:32:17,402 --> 00:32:18,631 We were in bed. 630 00:32:19,538 --> 00:32:21,370 And... 631 00:32:21,406 --> 00:32:23,875 Julie said, "There's something in the cellar." 632 00:32:23,909 --> 00:32:25,343 And I... um... 633 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,011 We were kids. It could have been when you said. 634 00:32:32,584 --> 00:32:34,075 Anyway she said... 635 00:32:37,656 --> 00:32:39,249 "It's making noises." 636 00:32:41,259 --> 00:32:43,353 She wanted to go and see. 637 00:32:43,929 --> 00:32:45,158 I didn't. 638 00:32:48,166 --> 00:32:50,397 She'd found out where he kept the key. 639 00:32:50,869 --> 00:32:52,861 My dad... 640 00:32:52,904 --> 00:32:55,373 He didn't know we knew. It was in a tin. 641 00:32:56,608 --> 00:32:59,237 On a shelf, under the sink, in the kitchen. 642 00:33:01,146 --> 00:33:03,342 We weren't allowed down there, ever. 643 00:33:06,785 --> 00:33:08,720 Anyway, they were both drunk. 644 00:33:09,754 --> 00:33:11,222 Pissed up to their eyeballs. 645 00:33:12,390 --> 00:33:14,518 Crashed out in the sitting room. 646 00:33:17,162 --> 00:33:19,290 We got this key. 647 00:33:20,665 --> 00:33:22,031 And we went down, 648 00:33:23,535 --> 00:33:24,628 into the cellar. 649 00:33:25,804 --> 00:33:28,774 We heard him whimpering. 650 00:33:30,041 --> 00:33:32,169 It was a man. 651 00:33:33,345 --> 00:33:35,712 Like an animal. It was... 652 00:33:38,383 --> 00:33:39,510 No clothes on. 653 00:33:40,519 --> 00:33:42,454 We knew they did 654 00:33:42,487 --> 00:33:45,116 bloody weird stuff, but this was... 655 00:33:45,156 --> 00:33:48,558 He was... Dirty, like he'd been there... 656 00:33:52,597 --> 00:33:54,566 We ran back upstairs. 657 00:33:55,500 --> 00:33:57,628 But we couldn't sleep, it was... 658 00:34:01,907 --> 00:34:03,205 And then... 659 00:34:04,643 --> 00:34:06,612 A bit later... 660 00:34:07,979 --> 00:34:10,107 She went and got a knife. 661 00:34:10,749 --> 00:34:12,684 Out of the kitchen. 662 00:34:13,251 --> 00:34:14,275 Julie. 663 00:34:15,820 --> 00:34:17,948 And we went back down there. 664 00:34:18,890 --> 00:34:20,586 I stood on the stairs. 665 00:34:20,625 --> 00:34:23,618 The cellar stairs. I was frightened, I couldn't go any further. 666 00:34:23,662 --> 00:34:27,895 I was frightened my dad would find us and lock us in with him. 667 00:34:27,933 --> 00:34:29,458 She cut the rope. 668 00:34:30,468 --> 00:34:31,902 Julie. 669 00:34:31,937 --> 00:34:36,602 The rope that was tying his hands behind his back and his legs 670 00:34:36,641 --> 00:34:39,338 were tied, too, but then he started... 671 00:34:40,712 --> 00:34:44,080 Flailing around, trying to get this thing off his face. 672 00:34:44,549 --> 00:34:46,984 And... 673 00:34:47,018 --> 00:34:49,613 We ran. We ran. We ran back upstairs. 674 00:34:49,654 --> 00:34:50,815 I... 675 00:34:50,855 --> 00:34:52,551 Dropped the torch. 676 00:34:52,591 --> 00:34:56,153 We left the door open, because we wanted him to run, too. 677 00:35:00,832 --> 00:35:02,596 Was that him? 678 00:35:02,634 --> 00:35:06,628 That would tie in with his description of how he managed to get away, yes. 679 00:35:08,139 --> 00:35:09,334 Is that... 680 00:35:11,843 --> 00:35:14,438 What he did to the ones you've found buried? 681 00:35:14,479 --> 00:35:16,846 There is some evidence that's what happened. 682 00:35:16,881 --> 00:35:18,679 Oh, my God. 683 00:35:21,119 --> 00:35:23,054 But not Michael? That wasn't... 684 00:35:23,088 --> 00:35:25,114 That was an accident. 685 00:35:25,156 --> 00:35:27,751 I'm afraid there's evidence that is what happened to Michael 686 00:35:29,127 --> 00:35:32,359 and that it wasn't an accident. 687 00:35:32,397 --> 00:35:34,525 Oh, God. 688 00:35:34,566 --> 00:35:36,694 The bastard. 689 00:35:36,735 --> 00:35:39,705 I didn't know he'd done that to other people. 690 00:35:43,274 --> 00:35:44,640 What about Sheila? 691 00:35:47,278 --> 00:35:49,543 Of course the most shocking thing is not what they saw, 692 00:35:49,581 --> 00:35:51,550 it's the fact that they saw it. 693 00:35:51,583 --> 00:35:53,711 She might be adamant that she had no idea 694 00:35:53,752 --> 00:35:55,414 other people were buried down there. 695 00:35:55,453 --> 00:35:58,514 Even if we've got no evidence to contradict that, 696 00:35:58,556 --> 00:36:00,388 the fact remains that, as an adult, 697 00:36:00,425 --> 00:36:04,055 she knew someone had been imprisoned and sexually tortured down there 698 00:36:04,095 --> 00:36:07,065 and that her brother had been killed and buried down there. 699 00:36:07,098 --> 00:36:09,533 As an adult, anyone in their right mind, 700 00:36:09,567 --> 00:36:12,264 must realise they have an obligation to tell the police. 701 00:36:12,303 --> 00:36:13,896 - Not legally. - Morally. 702 00:36:13,938 --> 00:36:15,634 Yeah, well, that's not our bag, is it? 703 00:36:15,674 --> 00:36:18,508 - No one else died after Michael. - We don't know that. 704 00:36:18,543 --> 00:36:20,388 All we know is no one else was buried in the cellar. 705 00:36:20,412 --> 00:36:22,278 That's not entirely the point, anyway. 706 00:36:22,313 --> 00:36:23,906 If she'd said something sooner, 707 00:36:23,948 --> 00:36:26,042 Irene Norgrove and all these other parents, 708 00:36:26,084 --> 00:36:27,848 the ones who are still alive, 709 00:36:27,886 --> 00:36:30,754 people you're going to have some pretty distressing conversations with, 710 00:36:30,789 --> 00:36:32,815 would have been able to move on by now, years ago. 711 00:36:32,857 --> 00:36:36,555 Yes, but the fact also remains that she did come forward, eventually. 712 00:36:36,594 --> 00:36:39,029 Voluntarily. Selflessly. And, actually, 713 00:36:39,064 --> 00:36:40,828 look what's happened to her since she did. 714 00:36:40,865 --> 00:36:44,324 People want blood. They've put shit through her door. 715 00:36:46,471 --> 00:36:48,463 Do you think he did murder other people? 716 00:36:48,506 --> 00:36:51,670 It's odd for someone like that to just stop. 717 00:36:51,710 --> 00:36:53,406 - Er, Rob! - Ma'am? 718 00:36:53,445 --> 00:36:55,141 Briefing room, please, 10 minutes. 719 00:36:55,180 --> 00:36:56,657 Then I think we've all earned a decent night's sleep 720 00:36:56,681 --> 00:36:58,411 in the light of today's little breakthrough. 721 00:36:58,450 --> 00:36:59,850 Are you still going to ask the CPS 722 00:36:59,884 --> 00:37:01,629 to drop the unlawful burial charges against Helen? 723 00:37:01,653 --> 00:37:04,122 They won't. I've had the conversation. 724 00:37:04,155 --> 00:37:07,250 The only thing I can do is fast-track it and ask for leniency. 725 00:37:08,259 --> 00:37:10,057 I'm not convinced he didn't murder Sheila. 726 00:37:10,095 --> 00:37:12,621 I don't think any of us are, are we? 727 00:37:12,664 --> 00:37:13,723 He's playing games. 728 00:37:13,765 --> 00:37:16,564 Well, yeah, of course he is, he's a psychopath. 729 00:37:16,601 --> 00:37:19,833 So, essentially, he's blaming Eunice for everything. 730 00:37:19,871 --> 00:37:21,203 I did remind him that, initially, 731 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,970 he blamed Eunice and Helen and Julie for Michael's death. 732 00:37:24,008 --> 00:37:25,306 But... 733 00:37:25,343 --> 00:37:27,539 Well, so this is what we're wondering. 734 00:37:27,579 --> 00:37:30,208 He knows that we've got irrefutable forensic evidence 735 00:37:30,248 --> 00:37:31,580 against him on Eunice, right. 736 00:37:31,616 --> 00:37:34,711 So, if he can blame Eunice for everything, 737 00:37:34,753 --> 00:37:39,191 coercing him, forcing him, brainwashing him, whatever, into doing things, 738 00:37:39,224 --> 00:37:42,285 then, A, he can claim diminished responsibility 739 00:37:42,327 --> 00:37:44,159 for murdering the seven boys in the cellar, 740 00:37:44,195 --> 00:37:48,132 and, B, he can claim the same when he goes to court for murdering Eunice. 741 00:37:48,166 --> 00:37:52,536 He can claim he ended the life of this woman who bullied him for years, 742 00:37:52,570 --> 00:37:56,200 this woman who was evil enough to murder her own daughter. 743 00:37:56,241 --> 00:37:57,937 Who'd believe him? 744 00:37:57,976 --> 00:38:00,207 - A jury. - A doddery little old man. 745 00:38:00,245 --> 00:38:02,111 A bleeding-hearts-brigade jury. 746 00:38:02,147 --> 00:38:04,309 We've got to wait for something from the lab on Sheila. 747 00:38:04,349 --> 00:38:05,977 What if there isn't anything? 748 00:38:07,886 --> 00:38:09,479 Right! 749 00:38:09,521 --> 00:38:12,548 Well done. There's a drink waiting for everyone over the road. 750 00:38:16,094 --> 00:38:17,187 What do you want? 751 00:38:17,228 --> 00:38:19,322 - Lager? - No. Bitter. Two bitters. 752 00:38:20,498 --> 00:38:21,591 Rachel! 753 00:38:29,307 --> 00:38:32,243 This had better be good. Bringing my bloody mother? 754 00:38:32,277 --> 00:38:34,769 I didn't bring her. She was here. I didn't want her here. 755 00:38:34,813 --> 00:38:36,782 You just turned up and she was already here? 756 00:38:36,815 --> 00:38:38,215 Yeah. 757 00:38:38,249 --> 00:38:39,308 I don't believe you. 758 00:38:39,350 --> 00:38:41,581 Well, whatever, it's irrelevant. Look... 759 00:38:41,619 --> 00:38:44,248 I'm not stopping. I just wanted to say... 760 00:38:45,190 --> 00:38:47,056 I know you're mad. 761 00:38:47,091 --> 00:38:49,026 You are mad, but... 762 00:38:50,428 --> 00:38:53,330 Look, I'm not prepared to accept 763 00:38:53,364 --> 00:38:59,600 that this can possibly have gone so wrong so quickly, because it hasn't. 764 00:38:59,637 --> 00:39:03,472 It's all in your head. You're feeling trapped and you don't need to. 765 00:39:05,743 --> 00:39:07,336 And when you realise that... 766 00:39:09,814 --> 00:39:11,214 Then you know where I'll be. 767 00:39:14,352 --> 00:39:16,446 Just call me. 768 00:39:28,533 --> 00:39:31,128 - Evening, cowboy. - What... 769 00:39:32,804 --> 00:39:34,033 What are you doing here? 770 00:39:34,072 --> 00:39:37,509 Nothing. I was just, um... 771 00:39:37,542 --> 00:39:40,410 Well, I pop in now and again. It's the only time I get to see... 772 00:39:41,412 --> 00:39:42,311 Fanny Alice. 773 00:39:42,347 --> 00:39:44,578 Yeah. Is it? 774 00:39:44,616 --> 00:39:46,744 - What are you drinking? - No, no, I'm fine. 775 00:39:46,784 --> 00:39:51,222 Uh... You couldn't lend me a few quid, could you? 776 00:39:51,256 --> 00:39:53,521 - How do you mean? - For a drink. 777 00:39:54,459 --> 00:39:55,552 Say... 778 00:39:56,761 --> 00:39:57,854 40 quid? 779 00:39:57,896 --> 00:40:00,195 - 40 quid? - For a taxi. 780 00:40:00,698 --> 00:40:02,826 You know. Later. 781 00:40:02,867 --> 00:40:04,460 Oh, well, I would, but... 782 00:40:04,502 --> 00:40:06,994 Eh, do you remember that night? 783 00:40:07,839 --> 00:40:09,307 Yeah. 784 00:40:09,340 --> 00:40:12,833 God, that bitch of a son of a bitch of a policewoman! 785 00:40:12,877 --> 00:40:14,539 She's just standing over there. 786 00:40:14,579 --> 00:40:19,677 So if you could just see your way to lending me a few bob, then, Pete... 787 00:40:19,717 --> 00:40:22,243 I'll... Hit the road. 788 00:40:27,725 --> 00:40:29,023 Right. Right. 789 00:40:33,765 --> 00:40:35,996 There's 30 quid. That's all I've got on me. 790 00:40:36,034 --> 00:40:37,195 Ta. 791 00:40:38,703 --> 00:40:40,501 How are you keeping, anyway? 792 00:40:40,538 --> 00:40:41,597 Yeah, good. 793 00:40:41,639 --> 00:40:45,474 Right. Well, I'll be loving you and leaving you, then. 794 00:40:46,811 --> 00:40:48,040 Yeah. 795 00:40:56,187 --> 00:40:57,780 Come to Daddy, you little sod. 796 00:41:01,592 --> 00:41:05,051 - Do you want a lift home? - Oh! Hello, love! 797 00:41:11,536 --> 00:41:12,765 I'm driving you home. 798 00:41:21,879 --> 00:41:23,313 She's got him! 799 00:41:24,615 --> 00:41:25,674 We got him. 800 00:41:26,818 --> 00:41:27,979 - She got him. - What? 801 00:41:28,019 --> 00:41:29,510 - Just now. - What's up. 802 00:41:29,554 --> 00:41:32,046 Oh, it was poetry. You could not have invented it. 803 00:41:32,090 --> 00:41:34,650 - It was just one of those moments. - Where's Mrs Dodson? 804 00:41:34,692 --> 00:41:35,803 - What happened? - We've got him. 805 00:41:35,827 --> 00:41:37,796 - She's with Karen Zalinski. - He did that thing. 806 00:41:37,829 --> 00:41:39,695 - What thing? - That stupid thing. 807 00:41:40,832 --> 00:41:43,358 It's a mystery to me how she could have done that. 808 00:41:44,202 --> 00:41:46,137 Butchered her own daughter. 809 00:41:46,170 --> 00:41:49,538 I said, "How do you mean, Joe, butchered?" 810 00:41:49,574 --> 00:41:51,907 And he said, "Cutting her head off." 811 00:41:51,943 --> 00:41:55,641 So, I said, "Well, I never told you that anyone cut her head off, Joe." 812 00:41:56,914 --> 00:41:59,611 And then that look, that thing that goes across their eyes. 813 00:41:59,650 --> 00:42:01,915 When they realise they've just put their foot right in it 814 00:42:01,953 --> 00:42:05,185 and you've got them and they know they're going down forever. 815 00:42:05,223 --> 00:42:08,921 And that's when he called me... It rhymes with stunt, runt, brunt. 816 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,589 Let this be a lesson to you all. 817 00:42:11,629 --> 00:42:14,098 Psychopaths, clever, but never as bloody clever 818 00:42:14,132 --> 00:42:16,124 as they like to think they are. Well done, kid. 819 00:42:16,167 --> 00:42:19,365 Oh, I did nothing. I was in the right place at the right time. 820 00:42:20,271 --> 00:42:21,603 Which makes a change. 821 00:42:37,555 --> 00:42:39,649 What's odd is that he ever stopped. 822 00:42:39,690 --> 00:42:42,990 Or appeared to. That's what we couldn't work out yesterday. 823 00:42:43,027 --> 00:42:45,792 - No. It's not that odd. - No, it is. 824 00:42:45,830 --> 00:42:49,961 Psychopaths. They just carry on pushing the envelope, taking risks. 825 00:42:50,001 --> 00:42:53,403 That's generally how they end up making a mistake. They get complacent. 826 00:42:53,438 --> 00:42:55,049 Who have you been having that conversation with? 827 00:42:55,073 --> 00:42:57,668 Eh... Dodson. Gill. Pete. 828 00:42:57,708 --> 00:42:59,472 What? 829 00:42:59,510 --> 00:43:03,311 He was beaten up in October 1977, like, really badly. 830 00:43:03,347 --> 00:43:05,816 I read his medical records. 831 00:43:05,850 --> 00:43:07,580 God, I'm amazed that nobody else has. 832 00:43:08,219 --> 00:43:09,983 He was hospitalised. 833 00:43:10,021 --> 00:43:13,219 Fractured skull, fractured pelvis, a broken arm, broken nose, 834 00:43:13,257 --> 00:43:14,623 mashed-up scrotum. 835 00:43:14,659 --> 00:43:17,686 I mean, someone kicked the shit out of him, like, literally. 836 00:43:18,896 --> 00:43:20,558 I'd like to think it was Phil Cairns. 837 00:43:20,598 --> 00:43:22,409 Only I don't want to embarrass him by asking him. 838 00:43:22,433 --> 00:43:24,959 You're so clever, aren't you? 839 00:43:25,002 --> 00:43:28,268 I'm telling you, you'll be calling me ma'am one day. 840 00:43:28,306 --> 00:43:31,640 Yeah. You're going to have to pass your sergeant's exams first, though, eh. 841 00:43:32,009 --> 00:43:33,238 Oh! 842 00:43:33,277 --> 00:43:35,678 - You're so funny, Janet. - Yep. 843 00:43:38,416 --> 00:43:40,351 I tell you what, I'm not looking forward to this. 844 00:43:45,089 --> 00:43:46,318 Hello. 845 00:43:46,357 --> 00:43:49,452 Louise, it's Janet and Rachel from the MMP. 846 00:43:49,494 --> 00:43:50,723 Can we come in? 847 00:43:53,564 --> 00:43:54,564 Helen. 848 00:43:56,134 --> 00:43:58,262 - How are you feeling? - I'm all right. 849 00:43:59,704 --> 00:44:01,195 Do you want to sit down? 850 00:44:02,974 --> 00:44:04,203 Why? 851 00:44:06,978 --> 00:44:08,674 I'm sorry to have to tell you 852 00:44:08,713 --> 00:44:12,013 that you are being formally charged with preventing a lawful burial. 853 00:44:12,416 --> 00:44:13,440 But... 854 00:44:13,985 --> 00:44:15,214 No. Hang on. 855 00:44:15,253 --> 00:44:17,586 We had an understanding. We had a deal. 856 00:44:17,622 --> 00:44:20,524 I know. I'm sorry. We did what we could. 857 00:44:20,558 --> 00:44:23,357 I did explain that we couldn't make any guarantees. 858 00:44:23,394 --> 00:44:26,125 It's a decision that's been taken over our heads. 859 00:44:30,234 --> 00:44:32,465 - Do you want to get your coat? - Fuck you. 860 00:44:33,271 --> 00:44:35,365 No. I mean, really. 861 00:44:35,406 --> 00:44:37,705 - Fuck you! - Helen! Helen! 862 00:44:41,879 --> 00:44:43,006 OK.65682

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