Original subtitles

Breaking news, Nissan's chairman has been arrested.

Nissan accuses Carlos Ghosn of underreporting his compensation

and the personal use of company assets.

It was a huge shock.

I didn't even know what was the accusation.

The allegations are quite serious.

Ghosn faces a maximum penalty of ten years imprisonment in Japan.

And this may not be the only penalty.

Bob, first, your reaction to all this.

It's both surprising and disappointing,

and let's not forget that he's innocent until proven guilty.

It was Thanksgiving.

I took the plane to New York,

and when I land, my son calls me.

I put my phone on and it was ringing. I said, "I'm on the plane, you know?"

And he said, "Mom, Carlos got arrested."

And I... You know, my knees collapsed. I couldn't even walk off the plane.

I was texting his phone. There was no news.

I get home. I put the TV on.

- Now, the allegation... - it turns a stone. Anna...

understated his own income...

Icarus, who flew too close to the sun.

Our representative director Carlos Ghosn

has committed serious misconduct.

When we realize it's Nissan who made him get arrested,

I'm like, "Wait... this isn't making sense."

I feel deep anger

and disappointment.

Saikawa, head of Nissan...

there was so much hatred in his face,

and I was like, "My God, what's going on?"

It's a fall from grace as brutal as it is sudden.

Carlos Ghosn's defense team claims there was another motivation

Stopping a merger between Nissan and Renault.

I think there's a half a chance it is a palace coup.

Something out of Shakespeare within Nissan.

I was stabbed in the back by a plot of Japanese people.

Carlos's lawyer told me, "Listen, Carole,

this story is much bigger than we think it is."

It was like a kidnapping.

This is Japan and you have no rights.

It's brutal and archaic.

I have to tell you, we were scared.

What's the most shocking thing about this?

Well, it seems something's going on within Nissan itself.

Some betrayal internally and maybe divisions in the company.

Ghosn has been in solitary confinement.

The way this is unfolding is just not normal for a financial investigation.

They took me to a cell.

I was shocked.

I was traumatized.

It was dark. It was cold. It was impersonal.

My God, what is this?

I was in a hole with no telephone, no contact.

This guy is used to corporate jet, big meetings.

They made a calculation that, "Okay, put him in a cell here, alone,

with no lawyer, no explanation.

In one week, he's gonna sign whatever confession we-we need."

Well, obviously they don't know me.

I was at home with my wife

and an executive from Nissan called me up from Japan.

He wanted to discuss some board issues in person.

So I said, "Well, why can't I do this by video conference?"

"I got a medical issue. As you know, I've gotta have a spinal surgery."

When he told me they wanted him to come to Japan,

I said, "Absolutely not."

Greg was in a lot of pain.

I said, "You can't even sit on the couch."

And to be honest, I was a little angry.

He was insistent. He really wanted me to come.

He actually said, "Hey, I'll get a charter flight for you,"

which was very unusual.

I get to Narita Airport.

It's just around dusk.

I get off the charter and they kind of whisked me through.

And they put me in a van. It was a big van.

Twenty, 30 minutes into the trip, the driver says,

"Hey, I got to pull over and call my family."

All of a sudden, a bunch of individuals get in the van with me.

One of them says, "You're gonna come with us."

I'm taken to the detention center.

You get put in prison garb, and I had my first interrogation that night.

I didn't know what was going on.

And then I realized they wanted me to turn on Carlos Ghosn.

The arrest of Carlos Ghosn changed everything about how I do this job

and, frankly, how I live my life.

I don't think I've had a full night's sleep in three years.

One of the most high-profile CEOs in the world

was just disappeared into a Japanese jail.

The initial allegation against Ghosn was difficult to understand

because, if you break it down, what he was accused of

was deferred compensation.

Executives around the world, they're all scratching their heads,

like, "deferred compensation?"

That's just a thing that's normal around the world.

And in Japan, it was essentially a paperwork violation.

So clearly something very unusual was happening.

To understand why the Japanese were so angry about this,

you have to know what happened during the financial crisis

ten years before Ghosn was arrested.

Japan's stock market has plummeted today

in its biggest decline in a decade.

The financial crisis hit Japan hard.

Jobs started disappearing and people were really struggling.

Suddenly, there was a lot of scrutiny on the decision-makers

at companies like Nissan.

And the Japanese government insisted on full disclosure

for anybody who made above a million dollars a year.

Carlos Ghosn was making 20 times that figure.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have reached a new era.

The problem was, in Japan,

if you make more than a couple million dollars a year,

you're making way more than your share.

For Nissan, this is all opportunity.

I mean, it didn't look good.

You're taking away from jobs and profit.

To avoid a potential uproar, Carlos Ghosn would take a 50% pay cut.

To have to tell the world, "I'm making ten million dollars a year",

when he was making over 20 the year before,

it makes them look like small potatoes compared to, like,

the GMs and Fords of the world, right?

He wasn't happy. This was an insult.

So he put to work Greg Kelly.

Now, Greg Kelly, he's almost like a Hollywood talent agent.

And Carlos Ghosn, to him,

was the automotive equivalent of Michael Jordan,

the biggest legend that ever lived,

worth every single dime he could possibly get this man.

There was an unfinalized arrangement for post-retirement services.

He would be compensated for that, for the value that he provided.

Thank you.

But here's the thing.

Carlos Ghosn never got paid.

If we're gonna do a deal, we're gonna do it after he retired.

Why we were arrested doesn't make sense to me.

I do not believe that senior directors at Nissan

knew nothing about what Carlos was being paid.

It just doesn't make any sense.

Ghosn's arrest could have been timed to push him out

in order to give Nissan the upper hand in ending its alliance

with the French automaker, Renault.

The idea that somebody of Carlos Ghosn's stature has been arrested,

you thought, "This has got to be big."

And when you hear it's really about whether he fiddled his retirement pay,

then you start to think, "Nah, it doesn't make sense, this."

Did he make enemies?

Was there an underlying resentment

within the companies he was controlling

brewing about the man and what he might do next?

It seemed like Ghosn had overstayed his welcome.

Nissan believed he had been using the company as his own personal ATM

and that he was funding his own personal lifestyle on the company's dime,

and this was unacceptable.

Even if there was any truth into these charges,

it doesn't deserve this brutality.

I can imagine you doing this for somebody who,

I don't know, killed your citizen, poisoned the country...

high treason.

We're talking all of this for what?

For... For not talking about the compensation that was not paid?

And that's what led me to say, "Well, it's obviously something else."

Mr. Kelly brought me in to help

with a series of matters emanating from his, rather outrageous arrest.

Why this was treated criminally was all to ding up Ghosn.

It was all to discredit Ghosn.

Greg Kelly, a former Nissan executive,

is accused of assisting Carlos Ghosn in underreporting his income

and has been held in a Japanese jail since November.

I spent 37 days in solitary confinement.

Slept on the floor.

There was a requirement that, so you could be seen,

you had to sit like an L

in a corner with your legs extended,

and you couldn't move.

But I was a 62-year-old guy that needed spinal surgery.

What's a 62-year-old guy that needs surgery gonna...

What risk am I to society?

Greg Kelly has been released from jail in Tokyo

after paying bail of $635,000.

In Japan, bail is not always that freely granted.

But my medical condition was one of the considerations.

The Japanese thought Greg Kelly would simply roll over and confess.

That's the type of extreme conditions.

It would take almost the strongest men you've ever met and turn them to dust.

But he was not willing to play that game.

I... I don't like hospitals.

In fact, I hate hospitals.

But go spend s... 37 days in solitary confinement,

and then get into a nice hospital room.

It was like the best thing in the world.

It was... It was quite a... an experience.

And then within the week, I saw my wife.

It's the day before his surgery. I arrived in Japan.

When I walked into the hospital room, I just...

He had lost so much weight, and he just looked... He looked terrible.

And like... "What did they do to you?"

I mean, just... For what?

It was unbelievable. It was, great to give her a hug.

But we knew we had a road in front of us,

and this was really just the beginning.

When they finally gave us visitation rights

to see Carlos in February,

it was a relief.

But I was scared driving to Kosuge. It's this huge jail.

From the outside, it looks like death. It looks like hell.

I promised myself, "When I see Carlos, I'm not gonna cry,"

because I wanted him to see me strong.

Obviously, it was an important moment for me.

But at the same time, I was dreading this moment,

because I knew that it was a very painful moment for her.

Because even with all the news that took place,

seeing somebody in prison, it's a shock.

He looked so skinny.

Haggard.

I was like, "My God."

His face and his hands were super yellow,

'cause I think he wasn't seeing the sun. I thought he had jaundice.

When I understood that he didn't take any money

and there's nothing that he did that was really wrong,

I got, like, angry.

I was so upset that... How could they do this?

These people are infringing on his human rights.

Carlos Ghosn is a great French businessman.

He is very attached to Japan

as well as to Nissan, to which he has devoted

more than twenty years of his life.

When I was called by the family,

I have to say I was not surprised

because I knew what happen in the Japanese prisons.

He was being interrogated for 12, 14 hours a day

without the presence of a lawyer.

He was treated as a guilt, in complete violation of his presumption of innocence.

He was put in a cell with a light on him, day and night.

The conditions of his detention could be qualified as, "legal torture".

How can they justify that Mr. Carlos Ghosn,

who presents no danger whatsoever,

being placed in solitary confinement for 100 days?

In Japan, 99% of the defendants are convicted.

It's not because the police or the prosecution is doing its job correctly.

It's because in the Japanese legal system,

if you are confessing the crime that you are prosecuted for,

you can be released quite quickly.

But if you do not confess the crime, you are held in custody.

And until you confess, the conditions are gonna be so bad

as to exert on you a psychological pressure,

which is gonna lead you into confession,

because that's the only way out.

You are a hostage of the justice system.

"Hostage justice" is an unfair label to put

on the Japanese system.

Carlos Ghosn was seen as a hero.

Nissan was in serious difficulties

and he pulled off a spectacular turnaround by cutting costs.

But in the shadows he worked to personally profit by billions of yen.

It doesn't matter if you're Japanese or foreign,

or if you're a rich person.

You must face the judgment of the law.

If this story was happening in another country,

I don't think I would have been arrested.

I don't think I would have been accused of anything.

The whole story do not make sense.

The fact that it's happening in Japan created the whole drama.

Good Monday morning, everybody. Welcome back to Mornings with Maria.

Joining the conversation on the panel this morning,

we begin with the wife of ousted Nissan chairman, Carlos Ghosn,

writing a letter to advocacy group Human Rights Watch,

claiming her husband is being mistreated while he is detained in a Japanese jail.

I went to see former president Nicolas Sarkozy,

and then he told me, "Y-You're the wife. You need to be present.

Be his spokesperson. Tell them what's happening to him."

Carole Ghosn is the wife of Carlos Ghosn, and she joins us now

for an exclusive interview. Thank you for speaking out.

Thank you for having me.

First of all, why are you wanting to settle?

Carole Ghosn came for an interview to make a public case for her husband

for his innocence and to help free him.

And she had never done anything like that.

Carlos did not take any money.

And yet, when the cameras started rolling, I was shocked.

I think we're seeing the dark side of Japan Inc.

The only thing people knew about Carole Ghosn was they saw those pictures,

having that lavish party at the Palace of Versailles.

It's inhumane what's happening.

I mean, the idea that...

The world got to see really what a force she was

in fighting for her husband.

The conditions that you describe here...

He was in isolation, wasn't getting enough food?

It's made to break the person

so they confess to a crime, even to crimes they haven't done.

I felt it was the most important job I've ever done,

other than raising my children, to help the man I love,

to get him out on bail.

This was a conspiracy against my husband.

One of the newscasters told me

that the Japanese Nissan kept on calling them and saying,

"Why are you gonna let her interview? Why? What is she gonna speak about?"

And, they were concerned, and that made me feel good.

I'm getting their attention.

It was important for him to know that someone is fighting for him.

Former Nissan chairman Carlos Ghosn's new legal team

is applying for bail again.

The former chairman of Nissan

has spent three and a half months in jail.

Carlos's story woke up the world to the Japanese way,

and the press started questioning it.

I don't understand why more isn't being done.

I agree with you.

The judiciary system is just bonkers.

It was amazing.

It's not just me who's saying, "Japan has violated his human rights."

It's everyone.

It is tough in Japan.

His bail request was turned down twice.

So I offered to the judge some rights

in exchange for freedom,

such as giving up the cell phone,

GPS monitoring.

Carlos Ghosn, who was granted bail yesterday,

could be released today.

I offered that

we would put a surveillance camera on the front door

of Carlos Ghosn's restricted home.

On the day of Mr. Ghosn's release

there are not just several hundred media people but

tens of helicopters up in the sky.

That was crazy.

I requested security

to allow us to use

the back gate instead of the front gate

without the knowledge of the media.

But security didn't agree with me.

We were waiting and waiting, and all of a sudden,

we see in the hallway, these prison guards walking.

Like, ten of them in front of us.

He's coming. He's coming.

It isn't him. That's puzzling.

And then his daughter Caroline goes,

"Wait, I think I saw... I saw my dad,"

and I said, "No, no, these are prison guards."

It's him. It's him.

He's in disguise.

Really? Unbelievable.

Then we realized he was one of the security guards and he left.

I decided to disguise him

and he enjoyed it, I guess.

Yeah, it didn't la... It lasted two seconds,

and they picked up on it, and he was on NHK.

It looks like the "disguise manual"

he consulted wasn't quite right.

It looks like a cheap comedy sketch.

The first days after my release were difficult.

The press was crazy.

This was the first time they could hear from me.

But I was not in a position to do anything.

I needed to reconstruct myself.

I needed to be surrounded by my family, by my children.

He slept a lot.

I think this is the way he would escape.

He was always sleeping,

and I would cook for him all the time things he loved.

I wanted him just to be home, and we'd watch TV at night.

People warned me. They said, "He might be a different man.

He's gonna be depressed.

He's gonna be broken, and you're gonna have to be very strong."

But he never complained about what happened to him.

He would spend the days building the case with his lawyers.

But the press would bombard us.

- Please, some privacy. - Please. Please. Please.

It was hell when you left the house.

Please

- respect our privacy. - The privacy. Come on.

I was still scared.

I didn't know what was gonna happen.

My arrest was so fake,

so fabricated,

so unfair.

It took me some time to realize that, "Hey, wait a minute. This is a plot."

They arrested me to forbid me to do my job.

In my opinion, there were forces inside Nissan

that were against the merger of the company.

Nissan old boys, in collusion with the Prosecutor Office of Tokyo,

decided to arrest me to stop the merger.

I was not supporting at all the, idea of the merger.

And I made it clear to, Carlos Ghosn himself.

If we merge into one company,

it is going to hurt the value of the Nissan.

So that kind of frustration was there.

And there was a big group of people in Nissan

that were very, very concerned about Carlos Ghosn's plan...

but when he was arrested, it has nothing to do with merger.

It took many, many months to get the document leaks

that you really need to tell a story like this.

Months of talking to sources

and expanding the network of people we talked to.

It was a lot of knocking on doors, ringing doorbells,

calling everybody we could find.

The biggest early breakthrough we had

was getting a copy of the Nissan investigation report.

It was a valuable road map

to, piecing together everything that happened.

The key to the story is Hari Nada.

Hari Nada is a British lawyer who was head of the CEO's office,

and he was extremely loyal to Nissan.

Hari Nada was able to persuade Greg Kelly to come to Japan

so that he could be arrested.

Because Greg Kelly trusted him a lot.

He hired him. He promoted him. He defended him.

I trust Greg and his judgment.

We worked together pretty closely.

And, yeah, there was a point at which I considered him a friend.

I can imagine the formidable tragedy for Greg personally,

having groomed a snake in the system.

Hari was what Nissan called the "whistleblower."

He wanted to get rid of Ghosn

because he believed that there was potential misconduct by Carlos Ghosn.

He sent a message out to the people who work with him,

calling them to a top-secret meeting in his office.

He liked skullduggery.

He told them they were going to work on something

that was extremely secret and dangerous, and couldn't leave the room,

because if Ghosn ever got wind of it, it would be their heads.

It was a set of plans

for a variety of scenarios focusing on a post-Ghosn future,

including what would happen if Carlos Ghosn was accused

of misconduct or a crime.

They had a code word for the investigation into Ghosn

and that was, "Kali,"

which is the Hindu goddess of death and destruction.

Was there a conspiracy within Nissan?

Clearly there was a conspiracy to-to oust Carlos Ghosn.

I mean, that much is clear.

I certainly looked up to Hari Nada.

I regarded him as a mentor.

He is a charismatic individual.

Supremely eloquent. Very polished.

But I would say Machiavellian.

If I had to put one word on it, it's Machiavellian.

Before Ghosn was arrested,

I was being told by Hari Nada there is this misconduct investigation...

related to Carlos Ghosn

and that I'd have a... role to play going forward.

These types of allegations are quite serious,

but they would normally be dealt with by the board of directors

behind closed doors, shall we say.

Not aired in public.

Hari Nada, along with Greg Kelly,

he's thinking up schemes on,

you know, "How do we pay Ghosn more money?"

So he was involved in some of the secret pay stuff with Ghosn.

But once this becomes a criminal investigation

and the prosecutors are looking into it,

Hari signs a plea deal in return for immunity.

Now, all of a sudden,

they're getting a lot of information from Hari Nada.

He's doing things like getting Greg Kelly to Japan ahead of the arrest.

He even plays a role

as a kind of collector of evidence for the Tokyo prosecutors.

They learn a lot from Hari Nada.

- You know, he's up... up to here in it. - Like... Up to here.

Hello, Mr. Hari.

So, Hari Nada was involved in the alleged wrongdoing,

but is now part of the group which is leading the investigation?

Is this your email on copy?

I don't know. This is a confidential company email, right?

Yeah, I mean, he had been involved in some of the things

that were being reported as transgressions, shall we say.

Yet he was involved in key elements of the investigation.

Anyone who's involved in the matter shouldn't be in a position to influence

or manipulate the outcome of the investigation.

And here, that's happening all the time.

Did you raise concerns about his continued role?

Yeah, absolutely.

I highlighted those... You know, to him himself.

I said, "Look, you know, these are real, tangible concerns

that are gonna come back

and have negative ramifications for the company."

And then things got really weird.

Within three days,

I was removed from the Ghosn misconduct investigation.

I heard rumors that I was going to leave the business

and, you're like, "What do you mean I'm gonna leave the business?"

"We've heard you're leaving."

And then you realize you're being followed.

Took some random turns,

and this car is literally following me.

I remember calling my wife saying,

"You're not gonna believe this, but I think I'm being followed."

My wife got quite worried about that.

She's like, "Well... Well, just come home. Just come home, quickly."

Who are you people? Who...

We came from court.

To do what?

The ultimate one is where your house is raided by the Yokohama Court Authorities.

I have my family here.

We are very scared.

We don't speak Japanese.

And I don't know what you want.

If you don't let us in now,

we have to break this key

and we are going to enforce it.

There were about four policemen standing outside.

Okay. I am very worried and I'm very nervous

about what you people are doing here.

"Why are there so many of you people here?"

And then you find out it's to recover a laptop and a phone.

And that's when you realize this could get really bad.

Don't shout at me. Don't shout at me.

You start thinking, "Am I being set up here?"

Our children are scared.

There's eight pe... people against two parents.

You just have to look at Carlos Ghosn.

You just have to look at Greg Kelly.

I was thinking, "What is going on here?"

We took a picture of one of the people following us.

And I've since learned that others were followed.

My kids. My wife.

I walk every morning about three... three or four miles.

As I was coming up to the entrance to the apartment,

there was a guy standing... And this was, like, 06:10 in the morning...

And he's, like, looking at his phone.

And then as I got closer, he turned his back to me,

and he kept turning his back. And I thought, "That's really weird."

They... They were hired by Nissan. They weren't hired by the prosecutors.

This is Nissan running their own little spy agency.

I was summoned to a meeting room.

- I'm told, "That's it. - Your foreign service is over.

You're going back to the UK."

I was given 48 hours' notice

that I would be removed as global general counsel.

And you just think, "Why?

What are they worried about?"

One rotten apple spoils the barrel, right?

Yeah, but... What if it's the barrel that's rotten?

Early in the morning, knock on the door.

A bunch of people outside.

You knew that, it was a rearrest.

What is going on?

I felt like I was in a daze.

And... And in shock that they arrested him again.

I was in my pajamas.

They made me sit on a chair for hours.

I couldn't move.

I wanted to go to the bathroom,

and they'd have a lady go in the toilet with me.

I was afraid for Carole.

They took her passport. They took her phone.

She was in a foreign country,

not speaking the language, without the telephone, alone.

They had no right

because she was not the object of any accusation.

And this was all calculated, you know.

Don't forget, for them, the confession,

because when you confess,

they score and you're gone.

Prosecutors have rearrested Nissan former chairman, Carlos Ghosn...

Ghosn is now facing new charges of financial misconduct.

He denies any wrongdoing.

There is no light at the end of the tunnel.

Things do not look positive for Carlos Ghosn.

At this point, the charges become a lot more serious.

So Nissan's lawyers claimed to have found

a hard drive belonging to Ghosn's late personal lawyer.

They then hand over this hard drive to prosecutors

who go through it, and who claim it's full of incriminating evidence.

Prosecutors saying that Nissan sent payments

to an overseas Nissan dealer

and that some of that money was diverted

to a company that was actually controlled by Carlos Ghosn.

You always, kind of, report with an open mind as much as possible.

And I feel, well, this could be a coup,

or he could have done some naughty things or both.

But this changed everything.

Prosecutors are now accusing the ex-Nissan boss

of diverting funds into a subsidiary controlled by him.

Suddenly we have an extremely serious allegation

that Carlos Ghosn is stealing tens of millions of dollars from his companies.

This was really theft.

I mean, you know, this just did not... did not look good.

Mr. Ghosn said it is a conspiracy.

But the fact of the wrongdoing was existing, actually.

There were many serious wrongdoings by Chairman Carlos Ghosn

and, with his... his instruction.

He is a man committed a crime.

They were determined to do him in.

They wanted to take him down.

And this is Japan.

So he realized he was in deep water.

Very deep water.

I had such a strong defense,

but I knew that I would not be fairly treated.

He started planning in his head, "I need to get out.

If I stay in Japan, it's gonna be a slow death."

They thought that I would be under their control

for the rest of my life.

Now it's gonna be a different game that you are not expecting.

Now I'm going to surprise you.

That's not justice. My mission was to get him out of there.

Welcome back. Our top story this hour, Carlos Ghosn on the run.

How did he do it?

You don't run unless you got something to run from.