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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 3 00:00:18,143 --> 00:00:21,146 [suspenseful music playing] 4 00:00:39,247 --> 00:00:41,124 [car radio flipping stations] 5 00:00:41,124 --> 00:00:43,335 [William Pierce over radio] It's frighteningly clear now 6 00:00:43,335 --> 00:00:45,545 that there is no way to win the struggle 7 00:00:45,545 --> 00:00:47,172 in which we are engaged 8 00:00:47,172 --> 00:00:52,135 without shedding torrents, veritable rivers of blood. 9 00:00:52,135 --> 00:00:54,512 [thunder crashing] 10 00:00:55,055 --> 00:00:58,224 [radio flipping stations] 11 00:00:58,224 --> 00:01:00,685 [Rush Limbaugh over radio] It's an endless parade 12 00:01:00,685 --> 00:01:02,854 of the dregs of our society. 13 00:01:02,854 --> 00:01:04,356 This is your country. 14 00:01:04,356 --> 00:01:06,441 These are the people that live next door to you. 15 00:01:06,441 --> 00:01:08,693 This is what's become of your country. 16 00:01:08,693 --> 00:01:10,195 [radio flipping stations] 17 00:01:10,195 --> 00:01:11,821 [G. Gordon Liddy] Neutering the Second Amendment 18 00:01:11,821 --> 00:01:13,281 with the assault weapons ban, 19 00:01:13,281 --> 00:01:15,283 violating the 10th Amendment with the Brady Bill, 20 00:01:15,283 --> 00:01:16,618 and slaughtering citizens 21 00:01:16,618 --> 00:01:19,329 using the ATF and the FBI Schutzstaffel 22 00:01:19,329 --> 00:01:21,206 is shredding the Constitution. 23 00:01:21,206 --> 00:01:22,874 [radio flipping stations] 24 00:01:22,874 --> 00:01:24,250 [thunder crashing] 25 00:01:24,793 --> 00:01:25,794 [static over radio] 26 00:01:26,670 --> 00:01:30,924 [Mark Koernke] The enemy has many assets at their disposal. 27 00:01:30,924 --> 00:01:33,635 The best one we have here is you. 28 00:01:34,219 --> 00:01:36,096 [thunder rumbling] 29 00:01:57,826 --> 00:02:00,745 - [man] Yeah, now you're on it. - I don't think so. 30 00:02:00,745 --> 00:02:02,247 [man] Yeah, the red light's on. 31 00:02:02,247 --> 00:02:04,082 Does it say "recording" there? 32 00:02:04,708 --> 00:02:08,336 [woman] Every April 19th is bittersweet. 33 00:02:08,837 --> 00:02:12,507 I remember exactly what I was doing that morning. 34 00:02:12,507 --> 00:02:15,093 - [child giggling] - [Sanders] Who's in that cave? 35 00:02:15,093 --> 00:02:17,178 [dramatic music plays] 36 00:02:18,013 --> 00:02:20,181 [Sanders] What's on my back? 37 00:02:20,849 --> 00:02:22,600 Uh, a raccoon. 38 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:24,102 [child laughs] 39 00:02:24,519 --> 00:02:27,355 [Sanders] My grandchildren, Chase and Colton, 40 00:02:27,355 --> 00:02:30,608 I went in and flipped the light on in their bedroom, 41 00:02:30,608 --> 00:02:32,736 and I sang, "Good morning to you. Good morning to you. 42 00:02:32,736 --> 00:02:35,321 We're all in our places with sunshine-y faces. 43 00:02:35,321 --> 00:02:37,782 What a nice way to start a new Wednesday." 44 00:02:37,782 --> 00:02:39,284 And Chase begins to giggle. 45 00:02:39,284 --> 00:02:41,453 - [giggles] - [Sanders] Those are so cute. 46 00:02:41,453 --> 00:02:44,205 - What are you eating, Chase? - [Colton babbling] 47 00:02:44,205 --> 00:02:45,457 [man] Bye-bye. 48 00:02:45,915 --> 00:02:48,335 [Sanders] I remember when I left them at the daycare... 49 00:02:48,335 --> 00:02:50,920 - [man] Look at his teefers. - [Sanders] I love you. 50 00:02:51,296 --> 00:02:53,465 Are we on our way to school? 51 00:02:53,465 --> 00:02:55,508 [Sanders] ...there in the Federal Building. 52 00:02:56,551 --> 00:02:59,679 The little donut crumbs that were on their faces. 53 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,392 Then, at 9:02... 54 00:03:05,143 --> 00:03:06,728 [explosion] 55 00:03:06,728 --> 00:03:08,730 [glass and metal rattling] 56 00:03:09,481 --> 00:03:11,149 [reporter 1] It looks like part of the building 57 00:03:11,149 --> 00:03:13,568 has been blown away. 58 00:03:13,568 --> 00:03:15,487 We'll have to bank around the other side 59 00:03:15,487 --> 00:03:17,155 so I can get a better view of it. 60 00:03:17,155 --> 00:03:20,283 [reporter 2] As the chopper goes around the Federal Building... 61 00:03:20,283 --> 00:03:21,826 - [reporter 3] Wow. - [reporter 2] Look at that shot. 62 00:03:21,826 --> 00:03:24,162 - [reporter 3] Holy cow. - [reporter 2] Incredible. 63 00:03:24,162 --> 00:03:25,413 The side of the Federal Building 64 00:03:25,413 --> 00:03:26,831 has been blown off. 65 00:03:26,831 --> 00:03:28,583 [people clamoring] 66 00:03:28,583 --> 00:03:29,918 [man] Get back! 67 00:03:30,210 --> 00:03:32,671 Get 'em back! Get 'em back! 68 00:03:33,463 --> 00:03:35,757 [yelling indistinctly] 69 00:03:36,841 --> 00:03:38,385 [sirens wailing] 70 00:03:38,385 --> 00:03:40,470 [man over radio] We got damage and injuries 71 00:03:40,470 --> 00:03:43,181 - all up and down Broadway. - [man] Get them back! 72 00:03:43,181 --> 00:03:45,892 [man over radio] We need all fire, ambulances 73 00:03:45,892 --> 00:03:47,018 you can get. 74 00:03:47,018 --> 00:03:48,770 [ominous music playing] 75 00:03:49,312 --> 00:03:55,443 [woman] It felt to me like my skin was burning off. 76 00:03:56,027 --> 00:03:57,529 It was very hot, 77 00:03:57,529 --> 00:04:00,740 and it was a wind so powerful 78 00:04:00,740 --> 00:04:04,869 that it felt like it pinned my hair back. 79 00:04:06,579 --> 00:04:10,166 [woman] I heard a very loud explosion, 80 00:04:10,166 --> 00:04:12,252 and I noticed a plume of smoke 81 00:04:12,252 --> 00:04:14,671 coming up from downtown Oklahoma City. 82 00:04:15,380 --> 00:04:20,093 So I ran back in the house and turned on the TV. 83 00:04:20,468 --> 00:04:23,930 That's where my daughter, Frankie, works. 84 00:04:24,723 --> 00:04:28,893 And as we made our way closer to the building... 85 00:04:29,477 --> 00:04:31,938 I said, "My daughter is dead." 86 00:04:35,233 --> 00:04:37,485 [man] I had little hope. 87 00:04:37,485 --> 00:04:40,739 Because Julie worked on the first floor. 88 00:04:42,657 --> 00:04:44,826 And of course the first floor had more deaths 89 00:04:44,826 --> 00:04:46,202 than any other floor. 90 00:04:46,202 --> 00:04:48,371 [sirens wailing] 91 00:04:48,371 --> 00:04:51,583 April 19th, my dad had an appointment 92 00:04:51,583 --> 00:04:55,253 to go down to the Social Security building that morning. 93 00:04:55,253 --> 00:04:57,839 I knew my mom went down with him. 94 00:04:58,423 --> 00:05:01,885 The news starts to come in, "There's been a bomb." 95 00:05:01,885 --> 00:05:04,763 When they said the Social Security building, 96 00:05:04,763 --> 00:05:05,972 I mean... 97 00:05:06,348 --> 00:05:09,851 everything at that moment just stopped. 98 00:05:13,688 --> 00:05:15,065 [man over radio] Got two down. 99 00:05:15,065 --> 00:05:16,816 They're unconscious and not moving. 100 00:05:16,816 --> 00:05:18,485 I need ambulances. 101 00:05:19,152 --> 00:05:20,445 [Tom Brokaw] In the heart of Oklahoma, 102 00:05:20,445 --> 00:05:22,113 in the heart of the capital city, 103 00:05:22,113 --> 00:05:23,865 a terrible bomb has been exploded. 104 00:05:23,865 --> 00:05:27,786 The governor has had a report that six children were killed 105 00:05:27,786 --> 00:05:29,621 in a daycare center. 106 00:05:30,038 --> 00:05:31,581 [man] Got one here! 107 00:05:31,581 --> 00:05:34,084 [man over radio] In the basement of the Federal Building, 108 00:05:34,084 --> 00:05:35,919 there's a children's center. 109 00:05:35,919 --> 00:05:38,338 We need to get fire department officials here 110 00:05:38,338 --> 00:05:40,090 as quick as we can. 111 00:05:40,632 --> 00:05:44,135 I said to my daughter, I said, "Edye, the babies." 112 00:05:44,636 --> 00:05:48,098 And we take off running to the north side of the building, 113 00:05:48,598 --> 00:05:50,475 and the building's gone. 114 00:05:50,475 --> 00:05:52,394 [somber music playing] 115 00:05:53,478 --> 00:05:55,730 [Edye sobbing] 116 00:05:59,609 --> 00:06:02,153 [Sanders] My son was an off-duty police officer. 117 00:06:02,153 --> 00:06:04,614 He saw his mom and his sister on TV, 118 00:06:04,614 --> 00:06:06,741 he knew something was wrong. 119 00:06:09,285 --> 00:06:10,662 [man] I looked up at the TV, 120 00:06:10,662 --> 00:06:13,498 and I saw my mom and my sister clutching each other, 121 00:06:13,498 --> 00:06:16,418 and my sister was screaming, "Where's my babies? 122 00:06:16,418 --> 00:06:18,086 Where's my babies? Where's my babies?" 123 00:06:18,670 --> 00:06:21,423 [sobbing] My babies were in there! 124 00:06:23,675 --> 00:06:25,218 [man over radio] Have we got information 125 00:06:25,218 --> 00:06:28,555 on where they have taken the children from the daycare? 126 00:06:28,555 --> 00:06:30,181 [dispatcher] I have not been advised. 127 00:06:30,181 --> 00:06:32,517 [siren whoops] 128 00:06:34,102 --> 00:06:35,520 [Coss] Upon arrival at the site, 129 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,815 my partner and I went into the rubble. 130 00:06:39,816 --> 00:06:41,776 I went to the back side of the building, 131 00:06:41,776 --> 00:06:44,821 which would be on the side of the daycare center. 132 00:06:45,321 --> 00:06:48,158 They had about 10 to 12 children laid out 133 00:06:48,158 --> 00:06:50,702 on a piece of concrete slab. 134 00:06:50,702 --> 00:06:52,537 They were laid one next to the other, 135 00:06:52,537 --> 00:06:56,458 and at the very end to the right, I found Colton. 136 00:06:59,210 --> 00:07:02,213 I knew that would be the last time I saw my nephew. 137 00:07:03,131 --> 00:07:05,884 I asked a state law enforcement officer that was there 138 00:07:05,884 --> 00:07:09,179 if I could reach down, hug him, and kiss him goodbye. 139 00:07:09,179 --> 00:07:12,474 And he told me, "This is a crime scene. 140 00:07:12,474 --> 00:07:14,184 Do not touch the evidence." 141 00:07:14,184 --> 00:07:16,436 [somber music playing] 142 00:07:36,414 --> 00:07:38,875 [Katie Couric] Of all the sad stories in Oklahoma City today, 143 00:07:38,875 --> 00:07:41,127 the most heartbreaking may be the stories of the children 144 00:07:41,127 --> 00:07:43,922 who were in the daycare center when the bomb exploded. 145 00:07:45,757 --> 00:07:47,676 What is your overwhelming emotion 146 00:07:47,676 --> 00:07:51,137 as you face this horrendous tragedy in your family? 147 00:07:51,763 --> 00:07:54,683 Those babies were just like mine, and I loved them. 148 00:07:54,683 --> 00:07:58,395 And anybody could understand the loss of a child, 149 00:07:58,395 --> 00:08:01,272 but to then have to watch your child grieve 150 00:08:01,272 --> 00:08:03,149 over the loss of those children, 151 00:08:03,149 --> 00:08:05,568 it's devastating. 152 00:08:05,568 --> 00:08:07,362 [Couric] Edye, are you confident 153 00:08:07,362 --> 00:08:10,156 that the people behind this will be caught? 154 00:08:11,991 --> 00:08:13,451 I don't know. I hope so. 155 00:08:13,451 --> 00:08:15,036 I-- I don't know. 156 00:08:18,456 --> 00:08:19,708 As a young reporter, 157 00:08:19,708 --> 00:08:22,502 I used to cover Oklahoma City streets. 158 00:08:22,502 --> 00:08:25,130 Usually nothing more exciting than a car crash. 159 00:08:25,130 --> 00:08:28,800 You know, everyone at NBC News knew I was an Okie 160 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,970 because I always bragged about the fact that I was an Okie. 161 00:08:31,970 --> 00:08:35,473 So there was no doubt who they were gonna send. 162 00:08:35,473 --> 00:08:38,810 When I got to the site of the Federal Building, 163 00:08:38,810 --> 00:08:43,064 I thought, "This can't be the place where I lived, 164 00:08:43,064 --> 00:08:44,649 Oklahoma City." 165 00:08:45,650 --> 00:08:47,152 It reminded me of Beirut. 166 00:08:47,152 --> 00:08:49,529 [siren wailing] 167 00:08:55,076 --> 00:08:57,328 It brought back memories of the Marine barracks, 168 00:08:57,328 --> 00:08:58,705 and the embassy bombing, 169 00:08:58,705 --> 00:09:01,833 and other terrorist attacks that I covered. 170 00:09:02,334 --> 00:09:06,463 And I said, "This is Oklahoma, this can't happen here." 171 00:09:06,463 --> 00:09:08,923 [siren wailing in distance] 172 00:09:08,923 --> 00:09:11,509 A U.S. government source has told CBS News 173 00:09:11,509 --> 00:09:14,971 it has Middle East terrorism written all over it. 174 00:09:14,971 --> 00:09:17,349 [Boettcher] Everyone was thinking Arab terrorism 175 00:09:17,349 --> 00:09:18,850 because there'd been an attempt 176 00:09:18,850 --> 00:09:21,561 to bomb the World Trade Center... 177 00:09:23,021 --> 00:09:26,107 and the bombers, they were from the Middle East. 178 00:09:26,900 --> 00:09:29,069 But I went to NBC and said, 179 00:09:29,069 --> 00:09:33,531 "Let me put together a team to investigate this." 180 00:09:33,865 --> 00:09:36,868 The first person I thought of was Bob Sands. 181 00:09:37,577 --> 00:09:40,872 I have this friend, and he had done some work 182 00:09:40,872 --> 00:09:43,917 for some far right-wing people in Duncan, Oklahoma. 183 00:09:43,917 --> 00:09:46,252 So I said, "Just check the boards 184 00:09:46,252 --> 00:09:47,712 and see what the chatter is." 185 00:09:47,712 --> 00:09:50,048 - [dial-up modem screeching] - [keyboard clacking] 186 00:09:50,048 --> 00:09:51,883 [Sands] About an hour later he called and said, 187 00:09:51,883 --> 00:09:54,552 "You're not gonna believe this. You need to come here." 188 00:09:54,552 --> 00:09:56,888 People were just going ape over it 189 00:09:56,888 --> 00:09:59,808 in the far right, the militia movement, 190 00:09:59,808 --> 00:10:02,060 saying, "Who did this? What's that all about? 191 00:10:02,060 --> 00:10:03,812 That's awesome." 192 00:10:04,729 --> 00:10:08,608 I would just ask that you and the American people 193 00:10:08,608 --> 00:10:11,778 not rush to any conclusions 194 00:10:11,778 --> 00:10:13,780 unsupported by known evidence 195 00:10:13,780 --> 00:10:16,408 and that we give investigators the space they need 196 00:10:16,408 --> 00:10:17,909 to do their job. 197 00:10:17,909 --> 00:10:20,662 [Clinton] My initial reaction was, first of all, 198 00:10:20,662 --> 00:10:22,414 to try to get everybody to calm down 199 00:10:22,414 --> 00:10:23,915 and not react with their words. 200 00:10:23,915 --> 00:10:26,876 I didn't want to stir whatever was going on up any more. 201 00:10:26,876 --> 00:10:29,045 And everyone immediately assumed 202 00:10:29,045 --> 00:10:32,257 that it was a Muslim extremist attack, 203 00:10:32,257 --> 00:10:34,092 and I wasn't so sure. 204 00:10:34,092 --> 00:10:36,052 - [gunshots in distance] - Shoot from the waist... 205 00:10:36,052 --> 00:10:40,015 [Clinton] My native state was almost like honey for bees 206 00:10:40,015 --> 00:10:42,600 to attract a lot of these extremist groups, 207 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,270 and they moved in and out of there. 208 00:10:45,270 --> 00:10:47,689 When Oklahoma City happened... 209 00:10:48,398 --> 00:10:51,359 my life and experience told me 210 00:10:51,359 --> 00:10:56,114 there was a very good chance that this was a homegrown plot. 211 00:10:58,533 --> 00:11:01,202 On the drive up there, there's a lot going through your head. 212 00:11:01,202 --> 00:11:03,830 You've got to command a major bombing investigation, 213 00:11:03,830 --> 00:11:05,999 and you're thinking of all the things you have to do. 214 00:11:05,999 --> 00:11:09,294 And I am thinking, "April 19th, April 19th, okay." 215 00:11:09,294 --> 00:11:10,628 I just file it away. 216 00:11:10,628 --> 00:11:12,756 I get a call from a nationally known reporter, 217 00:11:12,756 --> 00:11:15,925 and she said, "Is this Middle Eastern?" 218 00:11:16,509 --> 00:11:19,429 I said, "No, it's Bubbas. April 19th." 219 00:11:20,638 --> 00:11:21,890 Two years earlier, 220 00:11:21,890 --> 00:11:24,642 April 19th was the siege in Waco. 221 00:11:25,310 --> 00:11:27,979 And I thought we were seeing the results of that anger 222 00:11:27,979 --> 00:11:30,148 against actions on the part of the government. 223 00:11:30,148 --> 00:11:32,025 My thought is it's going to be Bubbas. 224 00:11:32,025 --> 00:11:34,736 [reporter] Emergency crews try to assist the injured. 225 00:11:34,736 --> 00:11:37,781 [man] That day, it was overwhelming 226 00:11:37,781 --> 00:11:40,158 to first go to the crime scene. 227 00:11:41,409 --> 00:11:44,454 Secret Service, IRS, ATF, 228 00:11:44,454 --> 00:11:49,209 multiple federal agencies were housed in that building. 229 00:11:51,127 --> 00:11:54,130 I was walking approximately a block and a half 230 00:11:54,130 --> 00:11:55,674 from the bomb scene. 231 00:11:55,674 --> 00:11:58,218 There were two FBI agents and a sheriff 232 00:11:58,218 --> 00:12:01,513 looking at this rear axle of a truck. 233 00:12:02,222 --> 00:12:04,974 They believed it had come from the truck 234 00:12:04,974 --> 00:12:07,060 responsible for the bombing, 235 00:12:07,060 --> 00:12:09,854 and they were removing the VIN number 236 00:12:09,854 --> 00:12:12,232 from the rear axle. 237 00:12:13,108 --> 00:12:15,235 And I told them to, "Guard that with your life. 238 00:12:15,235 --> 00:12:16,361 That's probably gonna be 239 00:12:16,361 --> 00:12:18,780 the most important piece of evidence we have 240 00:12:18,780 --> 00:12:20,699 in this entire investigation." 241 00:12:20,699 --> 00:12:22,867 [suspenseful music playing] 242 00:12:25,328 --> 00:12:28,081 We learned that particular truck had been rented 243 00:12:28,081 --> 00:12:32,168 three or four days before in Junction City, Kansas. 244 00:12:33,003 --> 00:12:36,923 The person who rented it went by the name of Robert Kling, 245 00:12:36,923 --> 00:12:40,552 and he used a birth date of April 19th. 246 00:12:42,012 --> 00:12:44,597 The mechanic that was working there 247 00:12:44,597 --> 00:12:47,183 probably had the best recollection 248 00:12:47,183 --> 00:12:49,561 of what he looked like. 249 00:12:49,561 --> 00:12:51,688 Also he had a recollection of a person 250 00:12:51,688 --> 00:12:53,857 he thought had been with him, 251 00:12:53,857 --> 00:12:56,484 commonly called John Doe Number 2. 252 00:13:03,992 --> 00:13:06,578 [Coulson] We sent agents all over the country, 253 00:13:06,578 --> 00:13:08,288 primarily on I-35, 254 00:13:08,288 --> 00:13:10,749 going north and south on the interstates. 255 00:13:10,749 --> 00:13:13,668 They went to a place called the Dreamland Hotel. 256 00:13:14,419 --> 00:13:16,087 They interview the owner, show her pictures. 257 00:13:16,087 --> 00:13:18,256 "Yeah, he was here. His name's Tim McVeigh." 258 00:13:18,256 --> 00:13:21,676 He was a very nice young man basically. 259 00:13:21,676 --> 00:13:23,094 It's very shocking to think 260 00:13:23,094 --> 00:13:26,473 somebody has such a deprived mind. 261 00:13:27,515 --> 00:13:29,851 [Ricks] We got the registration information. 262 00:13:29,851 --> 00:13:32,103 His name was Timothy McVeigh. 263 00:13:32,103 --> 00:13:35,857 So an agent runs the name of Timothy McVeigh 264 00:13:35,857 --> 00:13:37,400 and he gets a hit, 265 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,278 and says, "Boss, you're not gonna believe this bullshit, 266 00:13:40,278 --> 00:13:44,991 but Timothy McVeigh is-- is in custody." 267 00:13:45,909 --> 00:13:47,327 He had been arrested 268 00:13:47,327 --> 00:13:50,830 an hour and a half after the bombing 269 00:13:50,830 --> 00:13:53,124 in Perry, Oklahoma. 270 00:13:54,959 --> 00:13:57,671 [man] Here he is in his junker getaway car 271 00:13:57,671 --> 00:14:00,465 driving away from the scene of the crime. 272 00:14:01,007 --> 00:14:03,802 And he gets on the thruway and he-- 273 00:14:03,802 --> 00:14:06,388 He thinks he's gotten away with it. 274 00:14:07,138 --> 00:14:10,600 It turns out that McVeigh was missing a license plate 275 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,686 from his vehicle. 276 00:14:12,686 --> 00:14:15,647 When the trooper starts questioning McVeigh, 277 00:14:15,647 --> 00:14:17,816 he ascertains that McVeigh is carrying 278 00:14:17,816 --> 00:14:21,152 an unregistered handgun. 279 00:14:21,653 --> 00:14:23,405 He arrests McVeigh. 280 00:14:23,988 --> 00:14:26,157 McVeigh was wearing a T-shirt 281 00:14:26,157 --> 00:14:30,203 celebrating the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. 282 00:14:30,203 --> 00:14:33,998 And it always has astonished me that... 283 00:14:34,541 --> 00:14:39,170 nobody put these two things together at the time. 284 00:14:39,170 --> 00:14:42,048 But for two full days, they had no idea 285 00:14:42,048 --> 00:14:44,342 that he was involved with the bombing. 286 00:14:45,468 --> 00:14:48,680 And they were getting close to letting him go. 287 00:14:50,807 --> 00:14:52,100 It's just hard to believe. 288 00:14:52,100 --> 00:14:55,061 You think it's going to be a nationwide search, 289 00:14:55,061 --> 00:14:59,315 and now you're told that he's roughly 70 miles away. 290 00:15:00,025 --> 00:15:01,735 [Coulson] I said, "Call them and tell them, 291 00:15:01,735 --> 00:15:03,236 'Don't let that boy out.'" 292 00:15:03,236 --> 00:15:07,073 You can imagine my phone ringing off my belt. 293 00:15:07,073 --> 00:15:10,076 I mean, the-- the Attorney General's calling, 294 00:15:10,076 --> 00:15:11,870 the director of the FBI's calling me, 295 00:15:11,870 --> 00:15:13,413 "Get him out of there." 296 00:15:13,872 --> 00:15:16,041 Well, I was concerned about a rescue 297 00:15:16,041 --> 00:15:17,584 or attempt to kill him. 298 00:15:17,584 --> 00:15:19,377 And I didn't want to be the man 299 00:15:19,377 --> 00:15:22,005 who took McVeigh into custody and got him killed. 300 00:15:22,005 --> 00:15:23,381 Uh, not-- not good. 301 00:15:23,381 --> 00:15:25,592 I'd be working at Dairy Queen if that happened. 302 00:15:25,592 --> 00:15:27,677 [ominous music playing] 303 00:15:29,220 --> 00:15:30,889 [Boettcher] He was captured about 30 miles 304 00:15:30,889 --> 00:15:32,474 from where I grew up. 305 00:15:32,807 --> 00:15:34,934 And I thought it was foreigners. 306 00:15:35,477 --> 00:15:38,229 I didn't want to believe an American could do this. 307 00:15:43,318 --> 00:15:46,446 They marched Timothy McVeigh out of that jail, 308 00:15:46,446 --> 00:15:50,075 and I go, "You know, it wasn't a foreigner. 309 00:15:50,075 --> 00:15:54,579 This is-- this is an American doing this to Americans." 310 00:15:57,624 --> 00:16:02,087 [Coss] I was a little surprised that it was an American. 311 00:16:03,254 --> 00:16:07,384 I drew a conclusion pretty quick that this was payback for Waco 312 00:16:07,384 --> 00:16:09,219 and the kids that were killed there. 313 00:16:09,219 --> 00:16:11,388 "You killed our kids, we're gonna kill your kids." 314 00:16:12,847 --> 00:16:16,017 [Shaw] When I saw him on television, 315 00:16:16,601 --> 00:16:20,313 I felt like I'd seen him in the building before. 316 00:16:20,313 --> 00:16:23,149 I remember being in the elevator... 317 00:16:23,775 --> 00:16:26,611 and two men got on the elevator, 318 00:16:26,611 --> 00:16:29,614 and one of them was McVeigh. 319 00:16:31,241 --> 00:16:33,618 I always wondered if that was real 320 00:16:33,618 --> 00:16:39,165 or if I imagined that, with everything else going on. 321 00:16:40,959 --> 00:16:43,461 [Welch] He had that orange jumpsuit on. 322 00:16:44,462 --> 00:16:49,134 And my thought was, "I hope that somebody has a rifle 323 00:16:49,134 --> 00:16:51,386 and can just pick him off there." 324 00:16:51,386 --> 00:16:53,763 I mean, I was really wishing for that. 325 00:16:55,598 --> 00:16:57,434 [Battle-Leverett] You're looking for the monster, 326 00:16:57,434 --> 00:17:00,478 and you-- and you finally get that day to see him, 327 00:17:00,478 --> 00:17:04,190 and you're thinking like, "Wait a minute, is this him?" 328 00:17:04,190 --> 00:17:07,694 He looked like anyone's kid. 329 00:17:08,820 --> 00:17:12,240 Just your normal average Joe. 330 00:17:13,783 --> 00:17:16,911 [man] He's got this look in his eyes. 331 00:17:16,911 --> 00:17:19,831 I believed that in his mind 332 00:17:19,831 --> 00:17:22,125 he wanted to look out at the crowd, 333 00:17:22,125 --> 00:17:25,003 right straight into the cameras, and go, 334 00:17:25,003 --> 00:17:26,671 "You're goddamn right I did it, 335 00:17:26,671 --> 00:17:29,674 and you're cowards if you don't do the same thing." 336 00:17:34,596 --> 00:17:38,099 [reporter] There goes McVeigh, the first confirmed arrest... 337 00:17:39,017 --> 00:17:41,353 in the Oklahoma bombing case. 338 00:17:46,441 --> 00:17:48,193 After we had McVeigh in custody, 339 00:17:48,193 --> 00:17:50,695 I had McVeigh's father flown to Oklahoma City 340 00:17:50,695 --> 00:17:51,738 to meet with me. 341 00:17:51,738 --> 00:17:53,865 I asked him, "You know your son. 342 00:17:53,865 --> 00:17:55,533 Who would be involved in this?" 343 00:17:55,533 --> 00:17:58,870 And he said, "Terry Nichols and Michael Fortier." Like that. 344 00:17:59,746 --> 00:18:02,207 [Ricks] We learned he had been in basic training 345 00:18:02,207 --> 00:18:05,210 at Fort Benning, Georgia with a couple of guys 346 00:18:05,210 --> 00:18:08,338 named Terry Nichols and Michael Fortier. 347 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:10,423 Terry Nichols was older, 348 00:18:10,423 --> 00:18:12,550 but they had struck up a friendship 349 00:18:12,550 --> 00:18:15,428 based on-- on their political beliefs. 350 00:18:16,179 --> 00:18:20,558 We then learned Terry Nichols is now living in Kansas. 351 00:18:21,393 --> 00:18:25,271 At his residence, we find the remnants of fertilizer 352 00:18:25,271 --> 00:18:27,691 that was used in the bombing itself. 353 00:18:27,691 --> 00:18:29,943 But one of the biggest 354 00:18:29,943 --> 00:18:32,570 and most important pieces of information 355 00:18:32,570 --> 00:18:34,572 is a telephone card 356 00:18:34,572 --> 00:18:38,910 sold by a right-wing group called Spotlight. 357 00:18:39,577 --> 00:18:41,788 We pretty much were able to trace 358 00:18:41,788 --> 00:18:45,000 where they had been throughout the United States 359 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,293 through that calling card. 360 00:18:48,545 --> 00:18:53,091 We find that Michael Fortier is now living in Arizona. 361 00:18:53,633 --> 00:18:55,593 [Fortier] I think people are looking right now 362 00:18:55,593 --> 00:18:56,803 for somebody to hang. 363 00:18:56,803 --> 00:18:59,389 Now he may feel like there's nobody on this earth 364 00:18:59,389 --> 00:19:02,600 that is in any way supportive of him. 365 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,478 But there is. There is. 366 00:19:05,478 --> 00:19:07,105 Everybody should be supportive of him, 367 00:19:07,105 --> 00:19:08,606 because he is an innocent man. 368 00:19:10,984 --> 00:19:13,111 [Coulson] I interviewed Michael Fortier. 369 00:19:13,111 --> 00:19:15,697 I said to him, "I need your help." 370 00:19:15,697 --> 00:19:17,115 And he said, 371 00:19:17,115 --> 00:19:18,408 "You don't understand. We're at war." 372 00:19:18,408 --> 00:19:20,118 I said, "I'd have killed you today. 373 00:19:20,118 --> 00:19:22,454 I'd have killed you now if we were at war. 374 00:19:22,454 --> 00:19:23,830 I'd have killed your buddies. 375 00:19:23,830 --> 00:19:26,124 We're not. You may be at war with your country. 376 00:19:26,124 --> 00:19:27,751 Your country's not at war with you." 377 00:19:28,126 --> 00:19:30,128 I do not believe that Tim blew up 378 00:19:30,128 --> 00:19:32,088 any building in Oklahoma. 379 00:19:32,881 --> 00:19:35,633 And then he said to me, "It's about the Constitution." 380 00:19:35,633 --> 00:19:38,428 I said, "You're right. It is about the Constitution. 381 00:19:38,428 --> 00:19:40,347 Let me tell you what's going to happen. 382 00:19:40,638 --> 00:19:43,266 I'm going to indict you under the Constitution. 383 00:19:43,266 --> 00:19:44,893 I'm going to convict you under the Constitution. 384 00:19:44,893 --> 00:19:47,437 We'll handle your appeals under the Constitution. 385 00:19:47,437 --> 00:19:50,315 And sooner or later, somebody's going to put you on a gurney 386 00:19:50,315 --> 00:19:53,693 and stick a needle in your arm, and we're going to kill you. 387 00:19:53,693 --> 00:19:56,446 You better decide if you're on my side or their side." 388 00:19:57,822 --> 00:20:01,326 [Boettcher] Later on, after McVeigh had been charged, 389 00:20:01,326 --> 00:20:05,663 his attorneys let reporters meet with McVeigh one-on-one. 390 00:20:05,663 --> 00:20:08,667 The ground rule is this is not an interview, 391 00:20:08,667 --> 00:20:10,585 this is kind of a "get to know you." 392 00:20:11,503 --> 00:20:14,172 I had covered the first Gulf War, 393 00:20:14,172 --> 00:20:17,384 and I knew he had been a veteran of that war. 394 00:20:17,384 --> 00:20:19,511 And we started talking about the Gulf War, 395 00:20:19,511 --> 00:20:22,347 and he kind of lit up because it was something 396 00:20:22,347 --> 00:20:24,849 that he could talk about, that he felt proud of, 397 00:20:24,849 --> 00:20:26,518 that he had participated in. 398 00:20:27,268 --> 00:20:29,270 And then I shifted the conversation 399 00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:32,691 to his feelings about the U.S. government. 400 00:20:33,525 --> 00:20:36,695 And I could see a light switch go off in his eyes. 401 00:20:37,362 --> 00:20:38,571 And he went cold. 402 00:20:38,571 --> 00:20:41,783 And you could see the anger well up. 403 00:20:43,618 --> 00:20:48,540 And I thought at that point, "This guy for sure did it." 404 00:20:49,582 --> 00:20:51,501 [Sands] When Tim was identified, 405 00:20:51,501 --> 00:20:54,045 I just started delving into the far right. 406 00:20:54,045 --> 00:20:57,924 I went to Little Rock, Arkansas and did a lot of research there, 407 00:20:57,924 --> 00:20:59,467 because back in those days, 408 00:20:59,467 --> 00:21:01,219 you had to go actually look at hard paper. 409 00:21:01,219 --> 00:21:05,056 Turns out way back in 1983, 410 00:21:05,056 --> 00:21:07,100 this virulent racist 411 00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:09,060 by the name of Richard Wayne Snell 412 00:21:09,519 --> 00:21:11,688 had decided that he wanted to blow up 413 00:21:11,688 --> 00:21:13,398 the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building 414 00:21:13,398 --> 00:21:14,858 in Oklahoma City. 415 00:21:15,275 --> 00:21:17,569 I was stunned to find out 416 00:21:17,569 --> 00:21:19,362 that the far-right movement 417 00:21:19,362 --> 00:21:20,822 wanted to blow up the Murrah Building. 418 00:21:20,822 --> 00:21:23,241 How come we never heard about that before? 419 00:21:23,241 --> 00:21:25,618 [ominous music playing] 420 00:21:28,246 --> 00:21:29,581 [explosion] 421 00:21:29,998 --> 00:21:31,499 [gunfire] 422 00:21:32,417 --> 00:21:35,253 [man] Stay low! Get down! Whoo! 423 00:21:35,253 --> 00:21:36,338 [gunfire continues] 424 00:21:36,338 --> 00:21:37,839 [reporter 1] Pro-gun patriotism 425 00:21:37,839 --> 00:21:39,549 is becoming more and more popular 426 00:21:39,549 --> 00:21:41,760 among economically hard-pressed farmers. 427 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:43,762 [reporter 2] Traditionally strong, proud, 428 00:21:43,762 --> 00:21:47,807 independent farmers are losing their farms in record numbers. 429 00:21:47,807 --> 00:21:51,227 We think as many as a million family farms 430 00:21:51,227 --> 00:21:52,604 were foreclosed on 431 00:21:52,604 --> 00:21:54,481 during the late '70s and early '80s. 432 00:21:54,481 --> 00:21:56,775 - [farmers chanting] No sale! - [Wright] There was anger 433 00:21:56,775 --> 00:22:00,987 against the federal government's exploitation of farmers. 434 00:22:01,446 --> 00:22:05,158 Violence starts to occur in the heartland 435 00:22:05,617 --> 00:22:07,952 because they were desperate. 436 00:22:09,454 --> 00:22:11,498 When Mr. Nixon was president, 437 00:22:11,498 --> 00:22:15,418 he encouraged farmers to plant fencerow to fencerow. 438 00:22:15,418 --> 00:22:16,795 And they did. 439 00:22:16,795 --> 00:22:21,049 But then when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, 440 00:22:21,049 --> 00:22:23,385 President Carter put an embargo 441 00:22:23,385 --> 00:22:26,262 on grain sales to the Soviet Union. 442 00:22:26,846 --> 00:22:30,642 And the result was agricultural depression. 443 00:22:30,642 --> 00:22:32,644 [Ronald Reagan] The federal government mustn't shirk 444 00:22:32,644 --> 00:22:36,272 its responsibility to undo some of the damage that it created. 445 00:22:36,272 --> 00:22:38,817 We're doing a great deal to help farmers. 446 00:22:38,817 --> 00:22:41,319 But the federal government will not bail out 447 00:22:41,319 --> 00:22:42,987 every farmer hopelessly in debt. 448 00:22:42,987 --> 00:22:47,283 So today I have vetoed this massive new bailout. 449 00:22:47,283 --> 00:22:49,452 Ronald Reagan basically left the farmers 450 00:22:49,452 --> 00:22:53,039 to-- to, um, just go bankrupt. 451 00:22:53,039 --> 00:22:54,499 [farmers chanting] No sale! 452 00:22:54,499 --> 00:22:57,711 [Wright] Far-right leaders saw a political opportunity. 453 00:22:57,711 --> 00:23:00,588 The first wave of the patriot movement 454 00:23:00,588 --> 00:23:04,300 was able to successfully mobilize farmers 455 00:23:04,300 --> 00:23:06,511 into this far-right movement, 456 00:23:06,511 --> 00:23:08,304 and they were willing to take up arms, 457 00:23:08,304 --> 00:23:09,931 and some of them did. 458 00:23:10,432 --> 00:23:11,641 [Noble] Everybody in the movement 459 00:23:11,641 --> 00:23:13,852 saw the land crisis, farm crisis, 460 00:23:13,852 --> 00:23:17,439 as the government and major corporations 461 00:23:17,439 --> 00:23:21,359 putting farmers into a financial bind. 462 00:23:22,193 --> 00:23:25,363 Where the government is making war with the American people 463 00:23:25,363 --> 00:23:27,115 and selling us out. 464 00:23:27,699 --> 00:23:31,578 I don't want to see our group or any group 465 00:23:31,578 --> 00:23:36,332 forced against their will into a con-- confrontation. 466 00:23:36,708 --> 00:23:39,961 I'm a former extremist from a group known as CSA, 467 00:23:39,961 --> 00:23:41,880 the Covenant, the Sword, and the Arm of the Lord 468 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,383 in Northern Arkansas back in the '70s and '80s. 469 00:23:45,383 --> 00:23:46,843 [people singing indistinctly] 470 00:23:46,843 --> 00:23:49,471 [Noble] For me, it was like heaven on earth. 471 00:23:51,139 --> 00:23:54,726 The group was started originally by Jim Ellison 472 00:23:54,726 --> 00:23:58,480 to establish a community based upon the apocalypse. 473 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,565 [all] โ™ช Oh, Hallelujah โ™ช 474 00:24:00,565 --> 00:24:03,568 God began to deal with us about the economic judgment, 475 00:24:03,568 --> 00:24:04,736 collapse, and upheaval 476 00:24:04,736 --> 00:24:07,197 that was coming upon all the world. 477 00:24:07,197 --> 00:24:09,532 And especially on this country. 478 00:24:09,532 --> 00:24:11,951 [Noble] He said, "How are you gonna protect yourself 479 00:24:11,951 --> 00:24:13,203 when it collapses 480 00:24:13,203 --> 00:24:15,663 and bad people want what you have?" 481 00:24:15,663 --> 00:24:16,998 [Noble] Basically the Bible says 482 00:24:16,998 --> 00:24:19,459 we have the right to use whatever the enemy uses, 483 00:24:19,459 --> 00:24:21,336 and the enemy, of course, is gonna have guns. 484 00:24:21,336 --> 00:24:22,712 Fire! 485 00:24:24,839 --> 00:24:26,591 [Noble] We had never talked about guns before. 486 00:24:26,591 --> 00:24:29,094 We had never talked about defense. 487 00:24:29,094 --> 00:24:31,763 - [gunfire] - [mortar whistles] 488 00:24:32,472 --> 00:24:34,641 [Noble] Over the next 18 months, 489 00:24:34,641 --> 00:24:37,894 we started buying guns, buying military equipment, 490 00:24:37,894 --> 00:24:39,604 and we trained so well 491 00:24:39,604 --> 00:24:41,731 that a magazine in those days 492 00:24:41,731 --> 00:24:44,359 called us the number one civilian SWAT team 493 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:45,819 in the United States. 494 00:24:45,819 --> 00:24:47,070 [gunshots] 495 00:24:48,363 --> 00:24:51,116 The church kind of went to the background. 496 00:24:52,450 --> 00:24:56,121 Guns and warfare went to the forefront. 497 00:24:57,455 --> 00:24:59,958 The first plan that we talked about 498 00:24:59,958 --> 00:25:03,044 was the Oklahoma City Federal Building. 499 00:25:03,044 --> 00:25:04,587 [suspenseful music playing] 500 00:25:04,587 --> 00:25:06,464 [Noble] Sort of a quasi-member of the group, 501 00:25:06,464 --> 00:25:09,134 Richard Wayne Snell, he lived in Oklahoma, 502 00:25:09,134 --> 00:25:10,760 was having trouble with the IRS. 503 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,639 Him and Jim went and cased the Murrah Building. 504 00:25:15,974 --> 00:25:17,892 There was a lot of federal offices 505 00:25:17,892 --> 00:25:20,020 in that building, so it seemed like a good target 506 00:25:20,020 --> 00:25:23,314 of various agencies being in that building. 507 00:25:24,232 --> 00:25:25,775 So we had our munitions guy 508 00:25:25,775 --> 00:25:28,820 start to develop a rocket launcher, 509 00:25:28,820 --> 00:25:31,448 and all the rockets would be shot at the same time 510 00:25:31,448 --> 00:25:33,158 toward the Murrah Building. 511 00:25:33,992 --> 00:25:37,037 One of the missiles exploded in the guy's hands 512 00:25:37,037 --> 00:25:39,748 that was building them, scarred his hands real bad. 513 00:25:39,748 --> 00:25:42,917 So we took that as a sign that-- from God that we weren't-- 514 00:25:42,917 --> 00:25:45,628 weren't supposed to do that particular plan. 515 00:25:48,048 --> 00:25:50,342 [man] I was surprised as to the extent 516 00:25:50,342 --> 00:25:52,260 of violence of this group, 517 00:25:52,260 --> 00:25:55,221 believing that they were going to cause the collapse 518 00:25:55,221 --> 00:25:57,307 of the United States of America 519 00:25:57,307 --> 00:26:01,019 and that they were going to help create that collapse. 520 00:26:02,062 --> 00:26:04,689 We actually learned that Richard Wayne Snell, 521 00:26:04,689 --> 00:26:06,900 a member of the CSA, 522 00:26:06,900 --> 00:26:11,071 shot and killed a pawn shop owner in Texarkana, 523 00:26:11,071 --> 00:26:12,781 believing he was Jewish, 524 00:26:12,781 --> 00:26:15,533 had killed Louis Bryant, a state police trooper. 525 00:26:15,533 --> 00:26:18,536 Murdered I believe that was in '84. 526 00:26:18,536 --> 00:26:20,997 Got out of my van, 527 00:26:20,997 --> 00:26:24,709 and I shot Officer Bryant twice from the hip. 528 00:26:25,335 --> 00:26:27,045 [reporter] The death of Trooper Louis Bryant 529 00:26:27,045 --> 00:26:29,589 was especially heartbreaking for Bill Clinton. 530 00:26:29,589 --> 00:26:31,049 While the governor was visibly shaken 531 00:26:31,049 --> 00:26:32,008 over the slaying, 532 00:26:32,008 --> 00:26:33,259 he was also angry. 533 00:26:33,259 --> 00:26:35,804 They don't have a right to go around carrying weapons 534 00:26:35,804 --> 00:26:37,722 and taking the law in their hands 535 00:26:37,722 --> 00:26:40,725 and acting as if they're somehow playing God. 536 00:26:41,434 --> 00:26:43,812 [Noble] Snell got the death penalty. 537 00:26:44,354 --> 00:26:45,897 Snell's execution was to be 538 00:26:45,897 --> 00:26:50,402 on the night of April 19th, 1995, 539 00:26:50,402 --> 00:26:52,112 which happened to be the day 540 00:26:52,112 --> 00:26:56,032 the Oklahoma City Federal Building got bombed. 541 00:26:56,908 --> 00:26:58,868 In the movement, April 19th, of course, 542 00:26:58,868 --> 00:27:01,121 is what's called Patriot's Day. 543 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,542 First shot fired during the American Revolution. 544 00:27:06,001 --> 00:27:09,212 Very special for the whole movement. 545 00:27:09,921 --> 00:27:12,882 Jim told me one time, he said, "I will go down in history 546 00:27:12,882 --> 00:27:15,135 in the second American Revolution." 547 00:27:17,262 --> 00:27:18,930 In '84, I told Jim, I said, 548 00:27:18,930 --> 00:27:21,266 "So you really want all this to start?" 549 00:27:21,266 --> 00:27:22,434 He said, "Yes." 550 00:27:22,434 --> 00:27:25,145 I said, "So build a bomb, 551 00:27:25,145 --> 00:27:26,563 and we'll start the war." 552 00:27:27,188 --> 00:27:29,524 So they decided to go to find a good place 553 00:27:29,524 --> 00:27:31,151 to do the bombing. 554 00:27:33,611 --> 00:27:35,989 We found the gay church. 555 00:27:38,074 --> 00:27:41,953 We sorta had this stereotype image in our heads 556 00:27:41,953 --> 00:27:44,622 that there was just going to be this sexual orgy going on, 557 00:27:44,622 --> 00:27:45,749 which of course there wasn't. 558 00:27:45,749 --> 00:27:47,959 [people singing indistinctly] 559 00:27:47,959 --> 00:27:50,295 [Noble] I started seeing people lift their hands up 560 00:27:50,295 --> 00:27:54,132 and lift their eyes up, look up and start worshipping God. 561 00:27:55,592 --> 00:27:57,302 And I identified with them. 562 00:27:57,302 --> 00:28:01,931 So instantly they ceased being homosexuals in my eyes 563 00:28:01,931 --> 00:28:05,477 and became Christians, and I couldn't kill Christians. 564 00:28:08,146 --> 00:28:10,732 Later, I'm trying to talk to God. 565 00:28:10,732 --> 00:28:13,610 And I said, "Lord, I want to-- I want to leave." 566 00:28:13,610 --> 00:28:15,945 You know, "I can't handle this no more." 567 00:28:15,945 --> 00:28:18,573 And the Lord spoke to me and said, "You can't leave." 568 00:28:18,573 --> 00:28:20,533 [dramatic music playing] 569 00:28:21,326 --> 00:28:22,952 [reporter] It looks like a battle zone. 570 00:28:22,952 --> 00:28:25,121 Police and federal agents blockading the roads, 571 00:28:25,121 --> 00:28:27,832 surrounding the heavily armed compound 572 00:28:27,832 --> 00:28:29,959 of a white supremacist sect calling itself 573 00:28:29,959 --> 00:28:32,796 the Covenant, the Sword, and the Arm of the Lord. 574 00:28:32,796 --> 00:28:35,090 They want to arrest the leader, James Ellison, 575 00:28:35,090 --> 00:28:36,883 on an illegal weapons charge. 576 00:28:36,883 --> 00:28:39,344 [Clinton] The Covenant, the Sword, and the Arm of the Lord, 577 00:28:39,344 --> 00:28:40,929 they lived in log cabins. 578 00:28:40,929 --> 00:28:43,682 Every log cabin had a trapdoor. 579 00:28:43,682 --> 00:28:45,600 When you dropped through the trapdoor, 580 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,602 you were in a foxhole 581 00:28:47,602 --> 00:28:50,355 with your weapon and ammunition ready. 582 00:28:51,856 --> 00:28:53,274 Federal officials, 583 00:28:53,274 --> 00:28:56,194 they really wanted to storm this compound 584 00:28:56,194 --> 00:28:58,113 just like what later happened at Waco. 585 00:28:59,656 --> 00:29:02,701 [Coulson] We knew that a frontal assault attack 586 00:29:02,701 --> 00:29:05,704 on that entity, a lot of people would die. 587 00:29:05,704 --> 00:29:08,081 And we didn't want that. I do not want that. 588 00:29:08,081 --> 00:29:09,749 My job is not to kill people. 589 00:29:09,749 --> 00:29:11,209 I know how to do it, but I don't want to. 590 00:29:11,209 --> 00:29:13,878 And I didn't want to get into a shootout in the Ozarks. 591 00:29:14,337 --> 00:29:17,882 They had murder on their mind, and they were doing it for God. 592 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,051 I found somebody I could talk to. 593 00:29:20,051 --> 00:29:23,179 Actually, he came to me. Kerry Noble. 594 00:29:25,140 --> 00:29:27,642 He said, "I want to make this plain. 595 00:29:27,642 --> 00:29:29,894 We are not going to shoot first. 596 00:29:29,894 --> 00:29:31,855 We don't want to kill anybody here. 597 00:29:32,439 --> 00:29:35,942 But if y'all shoot first, I've got a Huey helicopter. 598 00:29:35,942 --> 00:29:37,193 It's gonna come up. 599 00:29:37,193 --> 00:29:39,237 It's got a .50-caliber machine gun, 600 00:29:39,237 --> 00:29:41,865 and it's gonna start shooting holes in all of your buildings. 601 00:29:41,865 --> 00:29:44,743 And in 30 seconds, every man, woman, and child 602 00:29:44,743 --> 00:29:47,245 in your compound is gonna be dead." 603 00:29:47,912 --> 00:29:49,831 So for four days, I went back and forth 604 00:29:49,831 --> 00:29:52,125 talking to Jim, talking to Danny. 605 00:29:53,084 --> 00:29:56,546 Finally on the fourth day, Jim got that revelation 606 00:29:56,546 --> 00:29:58,590 that he could justify in his mind 607 00:29:58,590 --> 00:30:02,010 a higher purpose in surrendering. 608 00:30:02,927 --> 00:30:05,680 We get down there, and then Danny looks at Jim 609 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:07,766 and says, "I'm placing you under arrest, 610 00:30:07,766 --> 00:30:09,392 but I'm not gonna handcuff you right now 611 00:30:09,392 --> 00:30:12,854 because I would not wanna be handcuffed in front of my men." 612 00:30:13,355 --> 00:30:14,981 I'm just bawling. 613 00:30:18,068 --> 00:30:21,029 [reporter] The four-day siege ended as quietly as it began. 614 00:30:21,029 --> 00:30:23,698 The FBI got more than it bargained for. 615 00:30:23,698 --> 00:30:27,786 Other weapons found at the camp read like an arsenal checklist: 616 00:30:27,786 --> 00:30:29,788 hand-grenade casings, blasting caps, 617 00:30:29,788 --> 00:30:32,332 dynamite, and various handguns. 618 00:30:32,332 --> 00:30:35,085 [Coulson] We found cyanide in huge barrels. 619 00:30:35,085 --> 00:30:37,379 They were going to poison the water supplies. 620 00:30:37,379 --> 00:30:39,047 [reporter] In addition to the arrest 621 00:30:39,047 --> 00:30:40,965 of CSA leader James Ellison 622 00:30:40,965 --> 00:30:42,384 by federal and state authorities... 623 00:30:42,384 --> 00:30:44,511 [Noble] Jim ended up taking a plea bargain 624 00:30:44,511 --> 00:30:45,970 on the weapons charges. 625 00:30:45,970 --> 00:30:49,307 I got arrested, ended up plea-bargaining, 626 00:30:49,307 --> 00:30:51,393 five-year sentence. 627 00:30:51,810 --> 00:30:54,729 My dream for moving there 628 00:30:55,146 --> 00:30:57,190 had turned into a nightmare. 629 00:30:58,316 --> 00:31:00,819 But the movement continued to grow. 630 00:31:00,819 --> 00:31:03,113 [ominous music playing] 631 00:31:04,406 --> 00:31:07,826 [woman] The white power movement had come together every summer 632 00:31:07,826 --> 00:31:09,536 at the Aryan Nations World Congress 633 00:31:09,536 --> 00:31:10,995 in Hayden Lake, Idaho. 634 00:31:11,746 --> 00:31:16,126 In 1983, the movement adopted a number of key strategies, 635 00:31:16,126 --> 00:31:19,921 and it decided to declare war on the federal government. 636 00:31:20,672 --> 00:31:24,759 There is nothing more that the white Aryan can do 637 00:31:24,759 --> 00:31:27,470 but obey the commandment of Yahweh, his God, 638 00:31:27,470 --> 00:31:29,389 and separate himself. 639 00:31:31,016 --> 00:31:32,308 Blood, blood. 640 00:31:32,308 --> 00:31:34,519 The Founding Fathers shed their blood 641 00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:36,021 to give you this country. 642 00:31:36,021 --> 00:31:38,231 And if you want to hold on to it, 643 00:31:38,231 --> 00:31:40,942 you're gonna have to shed some of yours! 644 00:31:40,942 --> 00:31:43,611 [Belew] They thought mainstream politics 645 00:31:43,611 --> 00:31:45,071 could never, ever deliver 646 00:31:45,071 --> 00:31:48,199 the kinds of social changes they wanted. 647 00:31:53,747 --> 00:31:56,458 In the '80s, there is a major campaign 648 00:31:56,458 --> 00:31:58,209 of violence and crime 649 00:31:58,209 --> 00:32:00,712 carried out by this movement across the United States. 650 00:32:00,712 --> 00:32:02,172 [man] Right turn! 651 00:32:05,592 --> 00:32:07,177 [Belew] Robbing of armored cars, 652 00:32:07,177 --> 00:32:09,971 bombings of gay theaters, assassinations. 653 00:32:09,971 --> 00:32:12,140 [reporter] Last night, Alan Berg was killed in ambush, 654 00:32:12,140 --> 00:32:13,725 arriving at his Denver home. 655 00:32:13,725 --> 00:32:15,602 Ten .45-caliber shell casings... 656 00:32:15,602 --> 00:32:17,270 [Belew] It's a spree. 657 00:32:17,270 --> 00:32:21,191 By 1987, the government believes it has a case 658 00:32:21,191 --> 00:32:22,442 that all of this activity 659 00:32:22,442 --> 00:32:25,070 represents an organized criminal conspiracy 660 00:32:25,070 --> 00:32:27,238 to overthrow the United States government. 661 00:32:29,407 --> 00:32:31,159 [reporter 1] Charges of sedition are filed 662 00:32:31,159 --> 00:32:33,286 against Reverend Butler and others. 663 00:32:33,286 --> 00:32:35,830 [reporter 2] The government said it intends to prove 664 00:32:35,830 --> 00:32:37,582 that ten of the defendants plotted 665 00:32:37,582 --> 00:32:40,210 to overthrow the government by force. 666 00:32:40,210 --> 00:32:42,921 [Belew] Seditious conspiracy is a hard charge to prove. 667 00:32:42,921 --> 00:32:44,631 Prosecutors have to show 668 00:32:44,631 --> 00:32:47,842 that they intended to overthrow the U.S. government 669 00:32:47,842 --> 00:32:49,302 and had the capacity to do so. 670 00:32:49,302 --> 00:32:51,971 [reporter] What the FBI now sees across the country 671 00:32:51,971 --> 00:32:54,099 is a national network of neo-Nazis 672 00:32:54,099 --> 00:32:55,433 and white supremacist groups 673 00:32:55,433 --> 00:32:57,477 whose goal is to purge this country 674 00:32:57,477 --> 00:33:00,563 of Blacks, Jews, and other minorities. 675 00:33:01,064 --> 00:33:04,693 One, I want to praise Yahweh's holy and precious name. 676 00:33:05,276 --> 00:33:07,779 Two, I want to say to hell with the federal government. 677 00:33:07,779 --> 00:33:10,990 [Belew] Louis Beam is really the intellectual architect 678 00:33:10,990 --> 00:33:12,909 of leaderless resistance. 679 00:33:12,909 --> 00:33:14,536 And I think this has been 680 00:33:14,536 --> 00:33:17,622 the biggest legacy of the white power movement 681 00:33:17,622 --> 00:33:21,126 and the reason it's been with us since 1983. 682 00:33:21,126 --> 00:33:24,921 Activists can work violently in common cause 683 00:33:24,921 --> 00:33:27,424 without direct communication with leaders. 684 00:33:27,424 --> 00:33:29,467 There are still leaders in leaderless resistance, 685 00:33:29,467 --> 00:33:32,012 but they're not culpable because you can't trace them 686 00:33:32,012 --> 00:33:34,097 to the individual violent actions. 687 00:33:35,265 --> 00:33:38,977 I understood that that was their intent. 688 00:33:38,977 --> 00:33:41,479 But I also knew that an Arkansas jury 689 00:33:41,479 --> 00:33:45,775 would have a hard time convicting these folks 690 00:33:45,775 --> 00:33:49,612 of-- of attempted overthrow of the United States government 691 00:33:49,612 --> 00:33:52,198 when they had no capacity, really, to do that. 692 00:33:52,198 --> 00:33:55,493 That's why it's called a conspiracy. 693 00:33:56,327 --> 00:34:00,165 The thought was trying to overthrow the government. 694 00:34:00,832 --> 00:34:02,834 Actually, they couldn't do it. 695 00:34:02,834 --> 00:34:05,045 But they surely tried. 696 00:34:06,671 --> 00:34:10,175 The government had really bet the farm on this trial. 697 00:34:10,175 --> 00:34:12,344 They had used all of these other busts 698 00:34:12,344 --> 00:34:15,347 to kind of amass state's witnesses. 699 00:34:15,847 --> 00:34:18,641 And it fails spectacularly. 700 00:34:19,142 --> 00:34:21,061 [reporter] It was the first serious setback 701 00:34:21,061 --> 00:34:22,645 in the federal government's war 702 00:34:22,645 --> 00:34:24,898 against suspected white supremacist groups. 703 00:34:24,898 --> 00:34:28,860 Thirteen defendants were found not guilty of all charges, 704 00:34:28,860 --> 00:34:30,695 which included murder, robbery, 705 00:34:30,695 --> 00:34:33,406 and conspiracy to overthrow the government. 706 00:34:34,366 --> 00:34:37,327 It was a tremendous defeat for the government. 707 00:34:37,327 --> 00:34:40,205 And it totally enabled the far-right movement. 708 00:34:40,205 --> 00:34:42,624 "We're free to go do whatever we want to do. 709 00:34:42,624 --> 00:34:44,209 They tried. They missed. 710 00:34:44,209 --> 00:34:46,169 We have got them by the short hairs." 711 00:34:46,169 --> 00:34:48,171 [reporter] Sheila Beam passed out 712 00:34:48,171 --> 00:34:50,173 and had to be carried off by her husband, 713 00:34:50,173 --> 00:34:51,633 who now walks free. 714 00:34:51,633 --> 00:34:54,052 [Sands] Leaderless resistance was Louis Beam's idea, 715 00:34:54,052 --> 00:34:55,553 and he passed it along 716 00:34:55,553 --> 00:34:57,555 to everybody else in the movement. 717 00:34:57,555 --> 00:35:00,517 The best way to go after the government 718 00:35:00,517 --> 00:35:04,771 was not to have this organized CSA compound 719 00:35:04,771 --> 00:35:07,232 but to have individuals... 720 00:35:08,108 --> 00:35:10,777 which led, of course, to the term "lone wolves." 721 00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:17,492 [ominous music playing] 722 00:35:19,911 --> 00:35:21,996 [men yelling indistinctly] 723 00:35:22,831 --> 00:35:25,917 [reporter] Iraqi troops have crossed the border 724 00:35:25,917 --> 00:35:27,877 into Kuwait. 725 00:35:28,586 --> 00:35:31,381 [George H.W. Bush] As was the case in the 1930s, 726 00:35:31,381 --> 00:35:34,634 we see in Saddam Hussein an aggressive dictator 727 00:35:34,634 --> 00:35:36,011 threatening his neighbors. 728 00:35:36,011 --> 00:35:37,429 [Belew] In our history 729 00:35:37,429 --> 00:35:40,432 of extremist movements in the United States, 730 00:35:40,432 --> 00:35:45,270 the most consistent correlation with spikes in membership 731 00:35:45,270 --> 00:35:47,605 is the aftermath of combat. 732 00:35:53,111 --> 00:35:55,613 Louis Beam understood this veteran connection 733 00:35:55,613 --> 00:35:56,823 very, very well. 734 00:35:56,823 --> 00:35:58,450 He did this very specifically, 735 00:35:58,450 --> 00:36:01,286 going to military bases, recruiting active-duty troops, 736 00:36:01,286 --> 00:36:02,620 recruiting veterans. 737 00:36:03,788 --> 00:36:04,956 These groups move 738 00:36:04,956 --> 00:36:06,875 from, you know, the white robe and hood 739 00:36:06,875 --> 00:36:08,501 to camouflage fatigues, 740 00:36:08,501 --> 00:36:12,547 able to take in a new generation of veterans coming home. 741 00:36:13,298 --> 00:36:15,300 Most notably, Timothy McVeigh. 742 00:36:15,300 --> 00:36:17,635 [country music playing] 743 00:36:20,722 --> 00:36:23,099 [man] Tim McVeigh came from a family 744 00:36:23,099 --> 00:36:25,477 that was literally the salt of the earth. 745 00:36:25,477 --> 00:36:28,396 They had come over in the 19th century 746 00:36:28,396 --> 00:36:30,357 to help with the canal 747 00:36:30,357 --> 00:36:34,027 and earned enough money to buy some farmland. 748 00:36:34,027 --> 00:36:37,072 You had the dawn of the automobile 749 00:36:37,072 --> 00:36:38,865 and Harrison Radiator, 750 00:36:38,865 --> 00:36:40,909 this sprawling plant 751 00:36:40,909 --> 00:36:45,789 where as many as 8,000 people worked at one time. 752 00:36:45,789 --> 00:36:47,374 And that was the world 753 00:36:47,374 --> 00:36:50,335 that Bill McVeigh was offering to his son. 754 00:36:51,795 --> 00:36:54,047 [Bill McVeigh] All four houses we lived in, 755 00:36:54,047 --> 00:36:56,174 we always had a pretty good-sized garden. 756 00:36:56,466 --> 00:36:58,259 We had a pool here. 757 00:36:58,259 --> 00:37:00,220 Sometimes in the summer, I'd come home from work, 758 00:37:00,220 --> 00:37:02,514 there'd be 15 kids in the pool. 759 00:37:02,514 --> 00:37:04,391 Family right next door, the McDermotts, 760 00:37:04,391 --> 00:37:06,643 they had a daughter the same age as Jennifer, 761 00:37:06,643 --> 00:37:07,602 Mollie. 762 00:37:07,602 --> 00:37:09,646 They were good everyday neighbors. 763 00:37:10,438 --> 00:37:13,858 He would play with us, he would babysit us, 764 00:37:13,858 --> 00:37:15,276 he took us trick-or-treating. 765 00:37:15,276 --> 00:37:18,780 And so I've known his family forever. 766 00:37:19,989 --> 00:37:23,576 I'm sure that the divorce of his parents was hard. 767 00:37:23,576 --> 00:37:28,790 When the split occurred, he chose to stay with his dad. 768 00:37:30,542 --> 00:37:34,504 [Herbeck] There was nobody that McVeigh loved or admired more 769 00:37:34,504 --> 00:37:37,090 than his grandfather, Ed McVeigh. 770 00:37:37,090 --> 00:37:38,550 He taught Tim McVeigh 771 00:37:38,550 --> 00:37:42,887 all about proper handling of guns, how to use guns. 772 00:37:42,887 --> 00:37:47,308 I think he equated guns with his beloved grandfather. 773 00:37:48,393 --> 00:37:49,686 [man] Tim McVeigh's father 774 00:37:49,686 --> 00:37:52,897 worked at a G.M. plant for 30 years. 775 00:37:52,897 --> 00:37:54,482 Tim McVeigh's grandfather 776 00:37:54,482 --> 00:37:57,527 worked in the same plant for 30 years. 777 00:37:57,527 --> 00:37:59,571 By the time McVeigh came along, 778 00:37:59,571 --> 00:38:03,283 that plant was shrinking almost to nonexistence. 779 00:38:03,283 --> 00:38:07,162 The industrial decline of the Buffalo area 780 00:38:07,162 --> 00:38:10,081 was a formative influence on McVeigh. 781 00:38:10,498 --> 00:38:14,461 At the same time, Terry Nichols was growing up 782 00:38:14,461 --> 00:38:18,923 on a small struggling farm in the thumb of Michigan. 783 00:38:19,424 --> 00:38:24,262 And the farm crisis was making it harder and harder 784 00:38:24,262 --> 00:38:26,431 for farmers like him to survive. 785 00:38:26,431 --> 00:38:30,393 So McVeigh and Nichols represent 786 00:38:30,393 --> 00:38:32,729 the crisis in American agriculture 787 00:38:32,729 --> 00:38:35,106 and the crisis in American industry 788 00:38:35,106 --> 00:38:37,442 to an almost perfect degree. 789 00:38:39,402 --> 00:38:40,737 [McDermott] I don't know when the idea 790 00:38:40,737 --> 00:38:44,282 to go into the military really came... 791 00:38:44,949 --> 00:38:50,497 but the first time I even sensed Tim seeming different 792 00:38:50,497 --> 00:38:55,835 was after his time over during the Gulf War. 793 00:38:55,835 --> 00:38:58,213 [Brokaw] The bombing in Iraq began 24 hours ago. 794 00:38:58,213 --> 00:38:59,756 It is still going on. 795 00:38:59,756 --> 00:39:01,591 [rapid gunfire] 796 00:39:02,676 --> 00:39:04,803 [soldier] Watch your lane. 797 00:39:06,638 --> 00:39:08,473 [Herbeck] At Fort Benning, 798 00:39:08,473 --> 00:39:11,976 Terry Nichols became one of McVeigh's best friends. 799 00:39:11,976 --> 00:39:17,649 He was very influential on McVeigh's views of politics. 800 00:39:18,483 --> 00:39:21,611 McVeigh became close to Michael Fortier, 801 00:39:21,611 --> 00:39:25,657 who would smoke dope when he was out on patrol. 802 00:39:26,533 --> 00:39:30,704 One of the very first experiences McVeigh had 803 00:39:30,704 --> 00:39:33,998 after joining the Army was these drill sergeants... 804 00:39:34,791 --> 00:39:38,128 they would scream things like, "Kill, kill, kill!" 805 00:39:40,005 --> 00:39:44,968 McVeigh became a very skilled sharpshooter 806 00:39:44,968 --> 00:39:47,887 in the Bradley military vehicle. 807 00:39:49,014 --> 00:39:53,601 [Michel] In one instance, he spotted two Iraqi soldiers, 808 00:39:53,601 --> 00:39:55,729 brought them into his sights. 809 00:39:58,189 --> 00:40:01,609 He said all he saw was a red mist. 810 00:40:02,861 --> 00:40:05,822 He was proud of his kill. He got a Bronze Star for it. 811 00:40:05,822 --> 00:40:08,992 But as this very short war progressed, 812 00:40:08,992 --> 00:40:10,368 he saw the carnage 813 00:40:10,368 --> 00:40:13,872 from all of the bombs that had been dropped. 814 00:40:13,872 --> 00:40:14,706 [explosion] 815 00:40:14,706 --> 00:40:16,458 [Michel] It was overkill to him. 816 00:40:16,458 --> 00:40:18,001 [explosions] 817 00:40:19,210 --> 00:40:22,672 This unit is trying to talk the Iraqis into surrendering. 818 00:40:22,672 --> 00:40:24,841 - [man yelling over speaker] - There are a group of Iraqis 819 00:40:24,841 --> 00:40:27,218 to the right carrying white flags. 820 00:40:27,218 --> 00:40:29,846 Over there, a large number of Iraqi tanks. 821 00:40:29,846 --> 00:40:32,599 [Boettcher] I've been in a lot of wars. 822 00:40:32,599 --> 00:40:34,642 And wars and combat 823 00:40:34,642 --> 00:40:36,895 affect different people different ways. 824 00:40:37,479 --> 00:40:41,733 I think what goes on in a lot of people who leave war 825 00:40:41,733 --> 00:40:44,819 is that they had a purpose. 826 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,239 And the purpose in Desert Storm 827 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:50,241 was to take back Kuwait 828 00:40:50,241 --> 00:40:52,202 and defeat Saddam Hussein's army. 829 00:40:52,202 --> 00:40:56,039 And that was a huge purpose, a huge global purpose. 830 00:40:56,581 --> 00:40:58,750 Then you come back home, and... 831 00:40:59,542 --> 00:41:01,586 you might have trouble finding a job, 832 00:41:01,586 --> 00:41:03,922 and you start getting discouraged. 833 00:41:05,173 --> 00:41:07,258 Tim McVeigh and myself, 834 00:41:07,258 --> 00:41:10,095 we both have that title, veteran. 835 00:41:10,095 --> 00:41:12,430 We spend four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 836 00:41:12,430 --> 00:41:14,599 ten years of our life serving our nation. 837 00:41:15,058 --> 00:41:16,559 Then when you get out of the military, 838 00:41:16,559 --> 00:41:18,103 you come back to the United States, 839 00:41:18,103 --> 00:41:21,523 and everyone's telling you that you're wrong, 840 00:41:21,523 --> 00:41:24,025 you shouldn't be killing people, we shouldn't be at war. 841 00:41:24,025 --> 00:41:28,697 [crowd chanting] No blood for oil! No blood for oil! 842 00:41:28,697 --> 00:41:30,782 [Welch] My daughter, Julie, demonstrated 843 00:41:30,782 --> 00:41:34,160 with a lot of other students against the Gulf War. 844 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,956 And the results of that war is actually the very thing 845 00:41:37,956 --> 00:41:41,876 that, uh, ended up causing her-- her death. 846 00:41:41,876 --> 00:41:44,295 - [director] How do you mean? - Well, because Tim McVeigh 847 00:41:44,295 --> 00:41:48,675 served in the Gulf War, had PTSD. 848 00:41:49,217 --> 00:41:53,138 Those soldiers saw Iraqis get shot in the back 849 00:41:53,138 --> 00:41:54,723 and saw tanks 850 00:41:54,723 --> 00:41:58,435 that actually buried some Iraqi soldiers alive. 851 00:41:59,102 --> 00:42:02,230 They saw all of that angry stuff and came back angry, 852 00:42:02,230 --> 00:42:03,982 angry young men. 853 00:42:05,817 --> 00:42:07,819 [Herbeck] After the war, 854 00:42:07,819 --> 00:42:11,573 McVeigh went to this Green Beret tryout. 855 00:42:12,490 --> 00:42:16,369 He failed in his tryout to become a Green Beret. 856 00:42:16,369 --> 00:42:19,497 That was a demoralizing thing. 857 00:42:19,497 --> 00:42:21,499 I think if he had succeeded 858 00:42:21,499 --> 00:42:24,002 and been selected as a Green Beret, 859 00:42:24,002 --> 00:42:27,464 he probably would have been a great killing machine 860 00:42:27,464 --> 00:42:29,632 for the U.S. government. 861 00:42:31,426 --> 00:42:33,219 [Michel] He comes home, 862 00:42:33,219 --> 00:42:35,972 and he has a nervous breakdown. 863 00:42:38,016 --> 00:42:40,018 He went over to his grandfather's house 864 00:42:40,018 --> 00:42:43,730 in February a few months after he'd been out of the military 865 00:42:43,730 --> 00:42:48,860 in a pair of sweatpants and just socks, no shirt. 866 00:42:48,860 --> 00:42:51,696 And Ed McVeigh opens the front door 867 00:42:51,696 --> 00:42:54,824 and says, "Tim, Timmy, what's going on here?" 868 00:42:56,618 --> 00:42:59,120 He says, "I don't know, Grandpa." 869 00:43:01,706 --> 00:43:05,001 McVeigh having PTSD, I think, helps to explain 870 00:43:05,001 --> 00:43:09,214 maybe the vulnerability, the fragility of his thinking. 871 00:43:09,214 --> 00:43:12,425 He would live in his car, he would sleep in his car. 872 00:43:12,884 --> 00:43:15,136 He would listen to right-wing radio... 873 00:43:15,136 --> 00:43:16,471 [indistinct radio broadcast] 874 00:43:16,471 --> 00:43:18,932 [Wright] ...and go from gun show to gun show. 875 00:43:20,934 --> 00:43:23,603 He was operating as sort of a straw buyer. 876 00:43:23,603 --> 00:43:25,939 He was buying guns for people 877 00:43:25,939 --> 00:43:28,066 who didn't want any kind of record 878 00:43:28,066 --> 00:43:31,194 or even name associated with buying guns. 879 00:43:31,194 --> 00:43:34,614 And he knew that these people were part of the insurgency. 880 00:43:35,824 --> 00:43:38,243 They're not just selling weapons. 881 00:43:38,243 --> 00:43:40,078 They're selling ideology. 882 00:43:41,454 --> 00:43:42,997 [on recording] I'm William Pierce, 883 00:43:42,997 --> 00:43:47,460 and I'll be reading my book, The Turner Diaries, to you. 884 00:43:47,460 --> 00:43:49,421 Listen carefully. 885 00:43:49,421 --> 00:43:50,922 "How it shamed us, 886 00:43:50,922 --> 00:43:53,925 all that brave talk by patriots. 887 00:43:53,925 --> 00:43:56,803 'The government will never take my guns away.' 888 00:43:56,803 --> 00:43:59,097 And then nothing but meek submission 889 00:43:59,097 --> 00:44:00,557 when it happened." 890 00:44:01,266 --> 00:44:04,602 [man] Timothy McVeigh used this book as a Bible. 891 00:44:04,602 --> 00:44:07,814 Both The Turner Diaries and-- and McVeigh 892 00:44:07,814 --> 00:44:09,566 targeted a federal building 893 00:44:09,566 --> 00:44:13,486 that had federal law enforcement agents in it. 894 00:44:13,486 --> 00:44:15,363 Both used a truck bomb. 895 00:44:15,363 --> 00:44:20,452 Both used a mixture of fuel oil and ammonium nitrate fertilizer. 896 00:44:21,077 --> 00:44:23,663 The one that strikes me the most eerie 897 00:44:23,663 --> 00:44:26,207 is the fact that the bomb that explodes 898 00:44:26,207 --> 00:44:30,337 and blows up the FBI building in The Turner Diaries 899 00:44:30,337 --> 00:44:32,881 went off at 9:15 a.m. 900 00:44:32,881 --> 00:44:37,302 The bomb in Oklahoma City went off at 9:02. 901 00:44:40,263 --> 00:44:44,225 He's got The Turner Diaries rolling in the back of his head, 902 00:44:44,225 --> 00:44:45,769 his love of guns, 903 00:44:45,769 --> 00:44:50,065 and he's buying these videos about things like Ruby Ridge. 904 00:44:51,649 --> 00:44:54,027 [indistinct chattering over radio] 905 00:44:56,780 --> 00:44:58,406 [reporter] Randy Weaver, a fugitive 906 00:44:58,406 --> 00:44:59,908 on a federal firearms charge, 907 00:44:59,908 --> 00:45:01,826 has been holed up in a cabin near Naples 908 00:45:01,826 --> 00:45:03,370 for more than a year. 909 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,916 Ruby Ridge came about because of shady dealings 910 00:45:07,916 --> 00:45:09,959 by the federal government. 911 00:45:09,959 --> 00:45:12,671 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms agents 912 00:45:12,671 --> 00:45:15,256 were trying to recruit Randy Weaver 913 00:45:15,256 --> 00:45:17,884 to be an informant on the militia movement 914 00:45:17,884 --> 00:45:21,179 by having another informant sell him a shotgun 915 00:45:21,179 --> 00:45:24,224 that was a quarter of an inch shy of the legal limit. 916 00:45:25,392 --> 00:45:27,227 That looks a lot like entrapment. 917 00:45:28,186 --> 00:45:30,772 [reporter] With the sudden appearance of military hardware, 918 00:45:30,772 --> 00:45:32,565 his one-man stand against the law 919 00:45:32,565 --> 00:45:34,693 is suddenly taking on the appearance 920 00:45:34,693 --> 00:45:37,195 - of a full-blown war. - [gunshot] 921 00:45:37,195 --> 00:45:39,781 [reporter 1] A federal agent has been shot and killed. 922 00:45:39,781 --> 00:45:42,742 [reporter 2] Randy Weaver's 13-year-old son died 923 00:45:42,742 --> 00:45:44,661 during the initial shootout Friday. 924 00:45:44,661 --> 00:45:47,247 His blood is on all your hands! You... 925 00:45:47,247 --> 00:45:50,333 Federal Marshals shot my son, Samuel, in the back 926 00:45:50,333 --> 00:45:51,543 and killed him. 927 00:45:52,377 --> 00:45:53,670 He was running home to me. 928 00:45:53,670 --> 00:45:55,672 His last words were, "I'm coming, Dad." 929 00:45:56,548 --> 00:46:02,095 The FBI adopted military rules of engagement at Ruby Ridge. 930 00:46:03,221 --> 00:46:06,141 The day after Sammy Weaver was shot... 931 00:46:06,141 --> 00:46:07,142 [gunshot] 932 00:46:07,142 --> 00:46:10,186 [Wright] ...a sniper fired at Randy. 933 00:46:10,186 --> 00:46:11,187 [gunshot] 934 00:46:11,187 --> 00:46:12,939 [Wright] The bullet went into the cabin 935 00:46:12,939 --> 00:46:16,860 and hit his wife, Vicki Weaver, in the head and killed her. 936 00:46:19,571 --> 00:46:21,114 Later, an investigation was done, 937 00:46:21,114 --> 00:46:24,909 and the Department of Justice settled for $3.1 million 938 00:46:24,909 --> 00:46:26,244 for unlawful death 939 00:46:26,244 --> 00:46:28,455 of Sammy Weaver and Vicki Weaver. 940 00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:32,500 [reporter] We just got an update from federal authorities. 941 00:46:33,501 --> 00:46:35,378 Randy's in good health. 942 00:46:35,378 --> 00:46:38,381 Unfortunately, Vicki is dead. 943 00:46:38,381 --> 00:46:39,758 [people gasping] 944 00:46:39,758 --> 00:46:42,969 [ominous music playing] 945 00:46:42,969 --> 00:46:46,890 [Beam] This time the federals came for Randy Weaver. 946 00:46:46,890 --> 00:46:49,642 Next time, they may come for you. 947 00:46:49,642 --> 00:46:51,102 [static over radio] 948 00:46:51,102 --> 00:46:52,937 [Herbeck] After Ruby Ridge, 949 00:46:52,937 --> 00:46:57,942 McVeigh was on an odyssey to nowhere for about two years. 950 00:47:00,362 --> 00:47:03,782 These ideas would just be turned over 951 00:47:03,782 --> 00:47:06,076 in his head again and again. 952 00:47:06,576 --> 00:47:08,620 [Michel] His car was an old Chevy. 953 00:47:08,620 --> 00:47:11,206 He nicknamed it the Road Warrior. 954 00:47:11,206 --> 00:47:13,249 He reconnects with his Army buddies, 955 00:47:13,249 --> 00:47:16,711 Michael Fortier and Terry Nichols. 956 00:47:16,711 --> 00:47:19,798 But there's a lot of alone time. 957 00:47:19,798 --> 00:47:22,592 He's manufacturing his arguments 958 00:47:22,592 --> 00:47:24,886 of why he hates the government. 959 00:47:28,223 --> 00:47:31,017 [Clinton] It may not be popular in West Virginia or Arkansas, 960 00:47:31,017 --> 00:47:32,602 where half the people have 961 00:47:32,602 --> 00:47:34,229 a hunting or a fishing license or both, 962 00:47:34,229 --> 00:47:36,231 but I think we ought to pass the Brady Bill 963 00:47:36,231 --> 00:47:40,151 and require a waiting period before people can get a handgun. 964 00:47:40,151 --> 00:47:43,071 I felt that if it was ever gonna be done, 965 00:47:43,071 --> 00:47:47,033 I was in the best position, because I grew up in Arkansas. 966 00:47:47,033 --> 00:47:49,703 I had a .22 when I was 10. 967 00:47:49,703 --> 00:47:52,580 I had a .410 shotgun when I was 14. 968 00:47:52,580 --> 00:47:54,332 I grew up in the culture. 969 00:47:54,874 --> 00:47:56,543 [gunshots] 970 00:47:56,543 --> 00:47:59,004 [Limbaugh] There's only one thing you need to know. 971 00:47:59,004 --> 00:48:01,840 The Democrats want to do away with the Second Amendment. 972 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:06,261 They want to end up registering every gun 973 00:48:06,261 --> 00:48:08,763 and its owner in this country. 974 00:48:09,264 --> 00:48:10,807 And their ultimate objective 975 00:48:10,807 --> 00:48:13,435 is to see to it that nobody has any. 976 00:48:20,692 --> 00:48:22,652 [birds chirping] 977 00:48:27,157 --> 00:48:30,535 [Wright] Some people forget that Tim McVeigh was at Waco. 978 00:48:32,370 --> 00:48:34,414 He was handing out anti-government pamphlets. 979 00:48:34,414 --> 00:48:37,208 He was carrying copies of The Turner Diaries. 980 00:48:37,208 --> 00:48:40,295 He was talking to people during the standoff. 981 00:48:42,339 --> 00:48:45,133 If you're a true Christian, and you believe the truth, 982 00:48:45,133 --> 00:48:47,010 and you know the truth, the truth will set you free. 983 00:48:47,010 --> 00:48:49,512 [Ricks] A group called the Branch Davidians, 984 00:48:49,512 --> 00:48:50,680 it was an offshoot 985 00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:52,515 of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 986 00:48:53,183 --> 00:48:55,727 About 100 people headed up by a gentleman 987 00:48:55,727 --> 00:48:58,313 by the name of David Koresh. 988 00:48:58,313 --> 00:49:00,899 He predicted the end of the world was near, 989 00:49:00,899 --> 00:49:04,027 that he was the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, 990 00:49:04,027 --> 00:49:06,237 the apocalypse was going to happen, 991 00:49:06,237 --> 00:49:07,697 and it was going to start there 992 00:49:07,697 --> 00:49:09,741 with a battle on the plains of Texas. 993 00:49:10,241 --> 00:49:12,327 - [reporter] You have guns? - It makes nobody's business 994 00:49:12,327 --> 00:49:15,538 whether we have a gun or not at this place. 995 00:49:15,538 --> 00:49:17,957 [Ricks] The ATF had information 996 00:49:17,957 --> 00:49:19,376 that there were automatic weapons, 997 00:49:19,376 --> 00:49:22,170 they had grenades there. And as a result, 998 00:49:22,170 --> 00:49:27,425 they were gonna launch an attack on the Branch Davidian compound. 999 00:49:27,425 --> 00:49:30,553 Get my battery, John. Get my battery behind the bus. 1000 00:49:30,553 --> 00:49:32,013 [agents chattering indistinctly] 1001 00:49:32,013 --> 00:49:34,683 The ATF wanted to conduct a paramilitary raid. 1002 00:49:34,683 --> 00:49:39,104 They had multiple opportunities to arrest David Koresh. 1003 00:49:40,063 --> 00:49:42,107 He jogged up and down Double EE Ranch Road 1004 00:49:42,107 --> 00:49:44,526 right in front of these surveillance houses. 1005 00:49:44,984 --> 00:49:46,695 They could've grabbed him then. 1006 00:49:46,695 --> 00:49:48,780 They didn't want to arrest him. 1007 00:49:48,780 --> 00:49:51,241 They wanted a big show. 1008 00:49:51,616 --> 00:49:52,867 And it backfired on them. 1009 00:49:52,867 --> 00:49:54,703 [gunfire] 1010 00:49:55,537 --> 00:49:57,288 [dogs barking, yelping] 1011 00:49:57,288 --> 00:49:58,873 The ATF fired the first shot, 1012 00:49:58,873 --> 00:50:02,335 shooting the dogs that were outside guarding the property. 1013 00:50:04,295 --> 00:50:06,006 And then it erupted into gunfire. 1014 00:50:06,006 --> 00:50:08,091 [gunshots] 1015 00:50:08,091 --> 00:50:10,176 [Ricks] ATF was immediately pinned down. 1016 00:50:10,176 --> 00:50:12,095 [gunfire continues] 1017 00:50:13,304 --> 00:50:15,557 [Ricks] Four of their agents were killed. 1018 00:50:16,016 --> 00:50:17,809 Sixteen were wounded. 1019 00:50:17,809 --> 00:50:20,645 Five Davidians were killed that day. 1020 00:50:20,645 --> 00:50:24,482 The Attorney General says that FBI should take over 1021 00:50:24,482 --> 00:50:26,317 and try to get this thing resolved. 1022 00:50:26,735 --> 00:50:29,654 I was dispatched down there to do the press conferences. 1023 00:50:29,654 --> 00:50:31,906 We're dealing with people who are very committed 1024 00:50:31,906 --> 00:50:33,658 to what they're doing. 1025 00:50:35,326 --> 00:50:38,496 [Ricks] And we ended up spending 51 days there. 1026 00:50:40,707 --> 00:50:42,125 [Wright] I actually came here 1027 00:50:42,125 --> 00:50:45,086 about three weeks into the standoff. 1028 00:50:45,086 --> 00:50:47,339 They wouldn't let anybody closer than, say, 1029 00:50:47,339 --> 00:50:50,300 maybe a mile from here. They had cordoned it off. 1030 00:50:51,009 --> 00:50:52,552 A lot of the people who showed up 1031 00:50:52,552 --> 00:50:54,304 were far-right patriots. 1032 00:50:54,304 --> 00:50:56,306 They weren't aligned with, say, 1033 00:50:56,306 --> 00:50:59,309 Davidian religious beliefs or sentiments. 1034 00:50:59,309 --> 00:51:03,521 You have attempted to cover up the FBI and ATF crimes here. 1035 00:51:04,314 --> 00:51:06,024 [Wright] It was already taking place, 1036 00:51:06,024 --> 00:51:07,567 that co-optation of Waco 1037 00:51:07,567 --> 00:51:09,861 for the far-right patriot movement. 1038 00:51:10,528 --> 00:51:12,864 [Belew] Waco is not a white power community. 1039 00:51:12,864 --> 00:51:14,991 It is a multiracial community. 1040 00:51:14,991 --> 00:51:16,201 The white power movement 1041 00:51:16,201 --> 00:51:18,036 doesn't care about that very much. 1042 00:51:18,036 --> 00:51:19,496 And the compound itself, 1043 00:51:19,496 --> 00:51:21,373 because this goes on for so long, 1044 00:51:21,373 --> 00:51:23,375 becomes a site where white power activists 1045 00:51:23,375 --> 00:51:25,001 can organize and talk to each other. 1046 00:51:25,001 --> 00:51:27,921 McVeigh travels to the Waco site. 1047 00:51:27,921 --> 00:51:29,798 Just, uh... I just arrived today. 1048 00:51:31,383 --> 00:51:33,760 Somebody told me a lot of people would be scared 1049 00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:35,553 to put something on like this. 1050 00:51:35,553 --> 00:51:37,722 [rock music playing] 1051 00:51:37,722 --> 00:51:39,391 [Wright] Tim said to me, 1052 00:51:39,391 --> 00:51:41,559 "The government is at war with us." 1053 00:51:42,227 --> 00:51:43,728 He kept talking about this war. 1054 00:51:43,728 --> 00:51:47,065 And I wasn't even privy to-- to this narrative or story. 1055 00:51:47,065 --> 00:51:49,609 So I ask him to explain it to me. 1056 00:51:49,609 --> 00:51:52,237 And he tells me that in the early '80s, 1057 00:51:52,237 --> 00:51:55,281 the Reagan administration pushes for a military role 1058 00:51:55,281 --> 00:51:56,741 in drug enforcement. 1059 00:51:57,158 --> 00:51:58,660 [Reagan] We waged a good fight. 1060 00:51:58,660 --> 00:52:00,036 The military forces 1061 00:52:00,036 --> 00:52:03,039 have dramatically reduced drug use by 67 percent. 1062 00:52:03,039 --> 00:52:05,750 [Wright] In order for civilian law enforcement 1063 00:52:05,750 --> 00:52:07,335 to get military support, 1064 00:52:07,335 --> 00:52:10,755 they would have to show what's called a drug nexus at Waco. 1065 00:52:10,755 --> 00:52:13,591 The ATF manufactured 1066 00:52:13,591 --> 00:52:15,677 a drug nexus that-- that wasn't there. 1067 00:52:15,677 --> 00:52:18,763 They claimed that Branch Davidians had a meth lab. 1068 00:52:20,724 --> 00:52:24,602 All those helicopters were part of the military support. 1069 00:52:24,602 --> 00:52:26,479 [Bryant Gumbel] It's day 33 of that cult standoff 1070 00:52:26,479 --> 00:52:28,231 with federal authorities near Waco... 1071 00:52:28,231 --> 00:52:29,858 [reporter 1] Discussions about a surrender have slowed. 1072 00:52:29,858 --> 00:52:32,193 [reporter 2] All day long, reinforcements were brought in 1073 00:52:32,193 --> 00:52:34,404 from as far away as Fort Hood. 1074 00:52:34,404 --> 00:52:37,323 [Wright] I think the ATF saw a political opportunity 1075 00:52:37,323 --> 00:52:40,618 in the election of Bill Clinton, who ran on gun control, 1076 00:52:40,618 --> 00:52:44,330 to expand its operation and expand its reputation. 1077 00:52:45,331 --> 00:52:47,792 [Clinton] I was really torn by Waco. 1078 00:52:47,792 --> 00:52:51,004 The FBI kept pushing for action. 1079 00:52:51,004 --> 00:52:53,381 And they acted like this would be, 1080 00:52:53,381 --> 00:52:56,009 you know, not too difficult to do. 1081 00:52:56,009 --> 00:52:58,261 And I got it, but I mean, the truth was 1082 00:52:58,261 --> 00:53:01,139 they were frustrated by being defied. 1083 00:53:01,514 --> 00:53:04,559 Sometimes the right strategy is to wait. 1084 00:53:04,559 --> 00:53:06,436 And I told them the story of what we did 1085 00:53:06,436 --> 00:53:08,897 with the Covenant, the Sword, and the Arm of the Lord 1086 00:53:08,897 --> 00:53:10,065 in Arkansas. 1087 00:53:10,357 --> 00:53:11,649 But they countered, 1088 00:53:11,649 --> 00:53:14,319 and this is what really mattered to Janet Reno, 1089 00:53:14,319 --> 00:53:18,198 with the prospect that Koresh and his inner circle 1090 00:53:18,198 --> 00:53:21,326 were abusing women and children. 1091 00:53:21,868 --> 00:53:23,244 Finally, I told them 1092 00:53:23,244 --> 00:53:25,288 they should go look at the record of what we did, 1093 00:53:25,705 --> 00:53:27,499 but I would leave the decision up to them, 1094 00:53:27,499 --> 00:53:30,669 and if they decided to do it, I would support them. 1095 00:53:30,669 --> 00:53:33,380 In Waco, Texas, the FBI has moved 1096 00:53:33,380 --> 00:53:35,340 to a new and more active stage. 1097 00:53:35,340 --> 00:53:38,426 An armored vehicle began punching holes. 1098 00:53:38,426 --> 00:53:41,930 They have been filling the compound with tear gas. 1099 00:53:43,264 --> 00:53:45,517 [Ricks] A little bit after noon, 1100 00:53:45,517 --> 00:53:49,479 they ended up setting fire to the entire compound. 1101 00:53:51,231 --> 00:53:52,691 [reporter] Here's another angle. 1102 00:53:52,691 --> 00:53:55,735 You can see the black smoke behind us. This is horrible. 1103 00:53:56,361 --> 00:53:57,862 [Ricks] And I was told by headquarters 1104 00:53:57,862 --> 00:54:01,032 I had to go back and do a final press conference. 1105 00:54:01,032 --> 00:54:03,201 I said, "What am I supposed to say? 1106 00:54:03,201 --> 00:54:04,369 There's nobody left." 1107 00:54:04,744 --> 00:54:07,372 I have been asked to read a statement 1108 00:54:07,372 --> 00:54:10,041 from the director of the FBI. 1109 00:54:10,041 --> 00:54:12,377 [Ricks] I was trying to comfort people, 1110 00:54:12,377 --> 00:54:15,547 but to see it all collapse was just overwhelming. 1111 00:54:21,386 --> 00:54:23,596 [Michel] McVeigh is standing in the parlor 1112 00:54:23,596 --> 00:54:26,766 of this old farmhouse that James Nichols owns, 1113 00:54:27,350 --> 00:54:30,228 watching this live image of Waco burning, 1114 00:54:30,228 --> 00:54:32,564 and tears are running down his eyes, 1115 00:54:32,564 --> 00:54:37,736 and he's also thinking about his experience in the U.S. Army. 1116 00:54:39,529 --> 00:54:41,072 [Herbeck] It really bothered McVeigh 1117 00:54:41,072 --> 00:54:44,242 that the same Bradley fighting vehicles 1118 00:54:44,242 --> 00:54:46,786 that he had fought in in the Persian War 1119 00:54:46,786 --> 00:54:50,165 were being used against the people at Waco. 1120 00:54:50,874 --> 00:54:54,586 That was the turning point for McVeigh. 1121 00:54:54,586 --> 00:54:57,589 He said in that very moment he decided 1122 00:54:57,589 --> 00:55:01,468 he was going to commit an act of terrorism. 1123 00:55:01,885 --> 00:55:03,887 [somber music playing] 1124 00:55:08,558 --> 00:55:10,560 [Wright] After Ruby Ridge and Waco, 1125 00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:13,521 we had this mass mobilization of militias. 1126 00:55:13,521 --> 00:55:15,940 [speaking indistinctly] 1127 00:55:15,940 --> 00:55:17,359 [gunshot] 1128 00:55:17,776 --> 00:55:19,903 [Wright] This thing just really explodes. 1129 00:55:19,903 --> 00:55:21,988 [rapid gunfire] 1130 00:55:23,573 --> 00:55:26,326 The critical issue is guns. 1131 00:55:29,079 --> 00:55:31,664 He became obsessed with the idea 1132 00:55:31,664 --> 00:55:35,210 the Democratic Party and Bill Clinton were scheming 1133 00:55:35,210 --> 00:55:37,712 to take away Americans' right to guns. 1134 00:55:37,712 --> 00:55:40,590 [Clinton] McVeigh told a lot of people 1135 00:55:40,590 --> 00:55:42,634 that he was just furious at me. 1136 00:55:42,634 --> 00:55:46,137 He really hated the Assault Weapons Ban. 1137 00:55:46,137 --> 00:55:48,306 It was the Assault Weapons Ban, 1138 00:55:48,306 --> 00:55:52,018 just as much as Waco and Ruby Ridge, 1139 00:55:52,018 --> 00:55:54,896 that motivated McVeigh to bomb the Murrah Building. 1140 00:55:54,896 --> 00:55:57,816 We will finally ban these assault weapons 1141 00:55:57,816 --> 00:55:58,858 from our street 1142 00:55:58,858 --> 00:56:02,112 that have no purpose other than to kill. 1143 00:56:03,863 --> 00:56:05,782 [static over radio] 1144 00:56:05,782 --> 00:56:08,118 [ominous music playing] 1145 00:56:13,456 --> 00:56:15,875 [Michel] McVeigh charged from one end of the country 1146 00:56:15,875 --> 00:56:17,544 to the other. 1147 00:56:18,294 --> 00:56:20,338 Finally decided to build the bomb 1148 00:56:20,338 --> 00:56:21,715 after months of buying 1149 00:56:21,715 --> 00:56:24,384 50-pound bags of ammonium nitrate 1150 00:56:24,384 --> 00:56:28,555 at weed-and-seed stores across the Midwest... 1151 00:56:29,347 --> 00:56:32,892 buying racing-car fuel down in Texas. 1152 00:56:33,184 --> 00:56:35,020 [static over radio] 1153 00:56:36,896 --> 00:56:39,232 [Michel] He ping-ponged back and forth 1154 00:56:39,232 --> 00:56:41,026 from Kingman, Arizona, 1155 00:56:41,026 --> 00:56:44,237 to Decker, Michigan, to Buffalo, New York. 1156 00:56:44,237 --> 00:56:45,947 [suspenseful music playing] 1157 00:56:52,412 --> 00:56:53,747 [Herbeck] McVeigh told us, 1158 00:56:53,747 --> 00:56:56,708 "Nichols and Fortier helped me." 1159 00:56:57,542 --> 00:56:59,878 He said, "I was the driving force 1160 00:56:59,878 --> 00:57:01,087 behind all this. 1161 00:57:01,504 --> 00:57:03,631 It was my plan. It was my crime." 1162 00:57:04,716 --> 00:57:06,676 He came up with an action plan. 1163 00:57:06,676 --> 00:57:08,887 [suspenseful music playing] 1164 00:57:12,599 --> 00:57:15,060 [Michel] In Kansas, at the lake, 1165 00:57:15,393 --> 00:57:16,895 the day before the bombing, 1166 00:57:16,895 --> 00:57:20,065 with some coercion to get Terry Nichols there, 1167 00:57:20,065 --> 00:57:22,067 they build the bomb. 1168 00:57:22,442 --> 00:57:24,986 [Herbeck] McVeigh said Nichols got cold feet 1169 00:57:24,986 --> 00:57:27,405 and McVeigh threatened him. 1170 00:57:27,697 --> 00:57:29,908 That's why he went along with it. 1171 00:57:37,123 --> 00:57:40,418 [Michel] April 19th, he gets back on the interstate, 1172 00:57:40,418 --> 00:57:42,087 traveling alone. 1173 00:57:44,547 --> 00:57:45,924 [static over radio] 1174 00:57:45,924 --> 00:57:47,759 [Koernke] The enemy has many resources 1175 00:57:47,759 --> 00:57:49,761 and assets at their disposal. 1176 00:57:50,303 --> 00:57:52,931 The best one we have here is you. 1177 00:57:53,390 --> 00:57:55,100 [explosion] 1178 00:57:55,100 --> 00:57:56,768 [glass shattering] 1179 00:57:57,394 --> 00:57:58,937 [helicopter whirring] 1180 00:57:58,937 --> 00:58:00,522 [car alarm blaring] 1181 00:58:01,481 --> 00:58:04,275 [sirens wailing] 1182 00:58:04,275 --> 00:58:06,444 [Herbeck] McVeigh told us that it was like 1183 00:58:06,444 --> 00:58:09,155 the Death Star in Star Wars. 1184 00:58:09,155 --> 00:58:12,200 He said, "There were all kinds of people in that Death Star 1185 00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:16,079 who were just like secretaries and weren't leaders. 1186 00:58:16,079 --> 00:58:17,872 They were killed too. 1187 00:58:18,665 --> 00:58:22,377 But people all applauded when the Death Star blew up." 1188 00:58:22,377 --> 00:58:25,505 He said, "Yes, innocent people had to die, 1189 00:58:25,505 --> 00:58:27,590 but that's the way it goes." 1190 00:58:27,590 --> 00:58:30,218 He calls them collateral damage. 1191 00:58:30,218 --> 00:58:32,512 [somber music playing] 1192 00:58:52,782 --> 00:58:54,492 [man] I walked over and introduced myself. 1193 00:58:54,492 --> 00:58:55,910 I said, "Mr. McVeigh, 1194 00:58:55,910 --> 00:58:57,704 I've been appointed to represent you." 1195 00:58:57,704 --> 00:59:00,290 And I think I said, "I'm from Enid, Oklahoma." 1196 00:59:00,290 --> 00:59:04,336 He shook my hand and said, "I heard you were coming." 1197 00:59:04,336 --> 00:59:09,090 He explained very candidly 1198 00:59:09,507 --> 00:59:12,177 why he did what he was accused of. 1199 00:59:12,552 --> 00:59:15,513 He exhibited some pride 1200 00:59:15,513 --> 00:59:18,350 in that he had managed to carry it off. 1201 00:59:20,060 --> 00:59:23,772 He wanted a defense based on necessity. 1202 00:59:24,439 --> 00:59:26,191 Said, "I had to do it 1203 00:59:26,191 --> 00:59:29,235 because they were going to kill other American citizens. 1204 00:59:29,235 --> 00:59:31,112 They had to be taught a lesson." 1205 00:59:31,112 --> 00:59:32,822 And I said, "Well, Tim... 1206 00:59:33,365 --> 00:59:34,991 tell me why it was necessary 1207 00:59:34,991 --> 00:59:37,786 to kill children under the age of six." 1208 00:59:38,244 --> 00:59:40,830 He said, "Well, there were children at Waco." 1209 00:59:41,539 --> 00:59:44,959 And I said, "Well, that may be true, 1210 00:59:44,959 --> 00:59:47,796 but that's not an explanation of the necessity. 1211 00:59:47,796 --> 00:59:50,215 What that is is revenge." 1212 00:59:50,215 --> 00:59:52,133 After that wouldn't go anywhere, 1213 00:59:52,133 --> 00:59:55,762 what I was trying to do was to raise a reasonable doubt. 1214 00:59:55,762 --> 01:00:00,141 We could argue to the jury the government hasn't proven it. 1215 01:00:00,141 --> 01:00:01,518 I'm hopeful 1216 01:00:01,518 --> 01:00:04,729 that no one will embarrass the state of Oklahoma 1217 01:00:04,729 --> 01:00:08,191 by doing anything to any party in this case 1218 01:00:08,191 --> 01:00:10,985 which would turn this into a three-ring circus. 1219 01:00:10,985 --> 01:00:12,737 It couldn't be seen as a show trial. 1220 01:00:12,737 --> 01:00:16,950 It had to be seen as lawyers vigorously representing him. 1221 01:00:16,950 --> 01:00:20,245 My opposite number was Merrick Garland. 1222 01:00:20,995 --> 01:00:23,456 He's been detained without bond. 1223 01:00:23,456 --> 01:00:24,749 [Toobin] It's important to recognize 1224 01:00:24,749 --> 01:00:26,626 how Merrick Garland structured 1225 01:00:26,626 --> 01:00:29,838 the criminal investigation and trial of McVeigh. 1226 01:00:29,838 --> 01:00:31,923 ...testified that the cause of the explosion 1227 01:00:31,923 --> 01:00:34,092 at the Murrah Building was a bomb 1228 01:00:34,092 --> 01:00:36,803 that was placed inside a Ryder Truck. 1229 01:00:36,803 --> 01:00:40,765 He had a prosecutor's view in the sense 1230 01:00:40,765 --> 01:00:46,479 that he wanted to keep the trial narrow and focused and limited, 1231 01:00:46,479 --> 01:00:48,940 uh, to what was needed to make the case 1232 01:00:48,940 --> 01:00:51,568 against first McVeigh and then Nichols. 1233 01:00:51,568 --> 01:00:53,528 [reporter] Can you give us any estimate 1234 01:00:53,528 --> 01:00:55,655 of how many people you still expect 1235 01:00:55,655 --> 01:00:58,283 to bring additional charges against in this case? 1236 01:00:58,283 --> 01:01:00,452 No, I'm sorry. I really have to limit myself 1237 01:01:00,452 --> 01:01:01,828 to what happened in the hearing today. 1238 01:01:01,828 --> 01:01:04,205 [man] Merrick always kind of kept his finger 1239 01:01:04,205 --> 01:01:06,249 on the pulse of the case. 1240 01:01:06,249 --> 01:01:08,043 You know, I'm not religious, 1241 01:01:08,043 --> 01:01:10,962 but I did feel during that period of time 1242 01:01:10,962 --> 01:01:12,797 like, "Oh, this is why I'm here." 1243 01:01:12,797 --> 01:01:17,135 I mean, I really felt like I was doing something 1244 01:01:17,135 --> 01:01:19,888 that mattered and that was worth doing. 1245 01:01:21,264 --> 01:01:23,641 [woman] On April 19th, 1995, the bomb went off, 1246 01:01:23,641 --> 01:01:25,268 I was in the office. 1247 01:01:27,729 --> 01:01:29,189 DOJ wanted to show 1248 01:01:29,189 --> 01:01:33,151 that the country could give a fair trial and due process 1249 01:01:33,151 --> 01:01:34,319 to these individuals. 1250 01:01:34,861 --> 01:01:37,030 This was right after the O.J. Simpson case, 1251 01:01:37,030 --> 01:01:41,409 where there was such fanfare and media attention. 1252 01:01:41,409 --> 01:01:42,744 Merrick wanted this 1253 01:01:42,744 --> 01:01:45,121 to be all about the crime that had occurred 1254 01:01:45,121 --> 01:01:47,540 and holding the individuals accountable. 1255 01:01:47,540 --> 01:01:49,876 [dramatic music playing] 1256 01:01:51,252 --> 01:01:55,674 [director] In the original indictment itself, it did say 1257 01:01:55,674 --> 01:01:58,009 Tim McVeigh, Terry Nichols, and "others unknown." 1258 01:01:58,009 --> 01:02:00,011 [Goelman] Why am I so confident we got--? 1259 01:02:00,011 --> 01:02:01,554 [director] Why are you so confident? 1260 01:02:01,554 --> 01:02:04,391 Um, the thoroughness of the investigation. 1261 01:02:04,391 --> 01:02:06,810 FBI interviewed so many people that we could find. 1262 01:02:06,810 --> 01:02:10,063 If you wanted to, you know, find somebody who said that, 1263 01:02:10,063 --> 01:02:12,524 you know, Madonna did the bombing, 1264 01:02:12,524 --> 01:02:14,025 you could find someone like that. 1265 01:02:16,277 --> 01:02:19,739 Both Nichols and McVeigh had big defense teams 1266 01:02:19,739 --> 01:02:21,700 at taxpayer expense. 1267 01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:24,869 And I think their strategies differed. 1268 01:02:24,869 --> 01:02:28,707 Stephen Jones had this whole public relations strategy, 1269 01:02:28,707 --> 01:02:30,875 where he, you know, traveled around the world 1270 01:02:30,875 --> 01:02:32,877 to try to find these "others unknown." 1271 01:02:32,877 --> 01:02:37,882 [Jones] To say that there were others unknown was true. 1272 01:02:37,882 --> 01:02:40,218 We were accused of being conspiracy theorists, 1273 01:02:40,218 --> 01:02:43,513 but it was the government that alleged there was a conspiracy. 1274 01:02:43,513 --> 01:02:45,140 We were just simply arguing over 1275 01:02:45,140 --> 01:02:48,018 how large was the conspiracy and who was there. 1276 01:02:49,602 --> 01:02:55,734 Tim wanted to be seen as, "This was the perfect mission. 1277 01:02:55,734 --> 01:02:58,903 The building was destroyed, people were killed, 1278 01:02:58,903 --> 01:03:00,947 there will be a revolution. 1279 01:03:00,947 --> 01:03:03,908 I have set the revolution in motion. 1280 01:03:04,826 --> 01:03:08,079 Me. No one else, me. Me, myself, and I." 1281 01:03:08,663 --> 01:03:11,082 It took probably about... 1282 01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:15,754 seven or eight days for me to start realizing 1283 01:03:15,754 --> 01:03:17,255 that he was lying. 1284 01:03:17,630 --> 01:03:19,090 Repeatedly. 1285 01:03:19,090 --> 01:03:21,926 Probably the first one, I said, "Tim, you've told me 1286 01:03:21,926 --> 01:03:24,429 that no one else is involved. 1287 01:03:24,429 --> 01:03:26,514 So why is the government talking 1288 01:03:26,514 --> 01:03:28,391 to Michael and Lori Fortier? 1289 01:03:28,850 --> 01:03:31,186 What do they know 1290 01:03:31,603 --> 01:03:33,146 that we don't know?" 1291 01:03:34,064 --> 01:03:36,775 He didn't want to reveal who others were. 1292 01:03:36,775 --> 01:03:38,610 He didn't want to solve the mystery. 1293 01:03:38,610 --> 01:03:40,945 [suspenseful music playing] 1294 01:03:43,948 --> 01:03:46,618 [Sanders] It was actually my husband, Glenn, 1295 01:03:46,618 --> 01:03:48,828 who started asking questions. 1296 01:03:48,828 --> 01:03:50,121 It's consumed our life. 1297 01:03:50,121 --> 01:03:53,958 Our life took a 180-degree turn that day. 1298 01:03:53,958 --> 01:03:57,629 And it probably will never be the same again. 1299 01:03:58,505 --> 01:04:01,508 [Sanders] After the bombing, I was so broken. 1300 01:04:02,634 --> 01:04:03,760 For the first few weeks, 1301 01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:06,137 I probably sat in a chair and cried. 1302 01:04:06,721 --> 01:04:09,557 But when I got out of the chair, 1303 01:04:09,557 --> 01:04:11,309 we had a dinner at our home 1304 01:04:11,309 --> 01:04:13,728 for the families that had lost their children. 1305 01:04:13,728 --> 01:04:15,480 [children laughing] 1306 01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:16,856 [Sanders] The saddest of times. 1307 01:04:16,856 --> 01:04:20,110 You get 19 families that lost their children. 1308 01:04:21,152 --> 01:04:22,904 One of the young mothers said 1309 01:04:22,904 --> 01:04:25,824 when she dropped her boy off that morning, 1310 01:04:25,824 --> 01:04:29,494 that she had seen the bomb squad downtown. 1311 01:04:29,994 --> 01:04:33,206 We're going, "How do you know it was the bomb squad?" 1312 01:04:33,707 --> 01:04:34,833 Finally, very indignantly, 1313 01:04:34,833 --> 01:04:37,293 she said they had big blue letters. 1314 01:04:37,919 --> 01:04:39,963 Then we found a newspaper article 1315 01:04:39,963 --> 01:04:42,173 from The Panola Watchman. 1316 01:04:43,842 --> 01:04:44,968 It was an interview 1317 01:04:44,968 --> 01:04:46,845 about this whole office full of people. 1318 01:04:47,345 --> 01:04:51,141 They had been watching the bomb squad in the alleyway. 1319 01:04:52,559 --> 01:04:57,063 The next day my husband, Glenn, goes to the fire station. 1320 01:04:57,564 --> 01:05:01,526 The fire chief said, "Oh, no, sir, we had no idea." 1321 01:05:02,068 --> 01:05:04,696 As my husband's leaving, the dispatcher there, he says, 1322 01:05:04,696 --> 01:05:06,823 "I'm not going to lie for anybody." 1323 01:05:06,823 --> 01:05:09,034 He said, "We got a memo in this office last week 1324 01:05:09,034 --> 01:05:11,369 to be on high terrorist alert." 1325 01:05:11,369 --> 01:05:14,497 [reporter] The fire department received a call from the FBI 1326 01:05:14,497 --> 01:05:17,500 five days before the bombing, warning that 1327 01:05:17,500 --> 01:05:19,711 "there were some people coming through town 1328 01:05:19,711 --> 01:05:22,130 they should be on the lookout for." 1329 01:05:22,130 --> 01:05:24,507 [Sanders] When the fire chief is confronted 1330 01:05:24,507 --> 01:05:26,051 with this information, he said, 1331 01:05:26,051 --> 01:05:28,803 "You know what, I made a mistake. 1332 01:05:28,803 --> 01:05:31,806 It was our bomb squad truck down there." 1333 01:05:31,806 --> 01:05:34,184 [reporter] The ATF director told reporters 1334 01:05:34,184 --> 01:05:35,685 they had taken some precaution 1335 01:05:35,685 --> 01:05:38,605 for the second anniversary of the siege in Waco. 1336 01:05:38,605 --> 01:05:40,106 I was very concerned about that. 1337 01:05:40,106 --> 01:05:42,567 We did some things here in headquarters 1338 01:05:42,567 --> 01:05:45,070 and in all of our field offices throughout the country 1339 01:05:45,070 --> 01:05:48,406 to try to be more observant. But it was primarily-- 1340 01:05:48,406 --> 01:05:50,241 We didn't anticipate something like this. 1341 01:05:50,241 --> 01:05:53,370 We were thinking about, you know, demonstrations 1342 01:05:53,370 --> 01:05:55,080 and things like that. 1343 01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:56,664 I think, yeah, we should have known 1344 01:05:56,664 --> 01:05:59,125 that there was some danger in the building that day 1345 01:05:59,125 --> 01:06:02,087 due to the fact that April 19th 1346 01:06:02,087 --> 01:06:05,256 is such a special day to the right wing. 1347 01:06:05,256 --> 01:06:07,717 So you're not somebody that could be characterized 1348 01:06:07,717 --> 01:06:10,303 as a conspiracy-theory person, 1349 01:06:10,303 --> 01:06:12,764 in the sense that you feel the federal government was, 1350 01:06:12,764 --> 01:06:15,058 in some way, part of this explosion? 1351 01:06:15,058 --> 01:06:16,768 No. Not at all. 1352 01:06:17,477 --> 01:06:20,438 [Sanders] Glenn and I had so many questions. 1353 01:06:20,438 --> 01:06:21,690 After the bombing, 1354 01:06:21,690 --> 01:06:24,192 they started the biggest manhunt in American history 1355 01:06:24,192 --> 01:06:26,111 for John Doe Number 2. 1356 01:06:26,986 --> 01:06:30,073 And then they called it off. 1357 01:06:31,449 --> 01:06:34,661 [Jones] The government originally described two men. 1358 01:06:34,661 --> 01:06:36,371 They had the sketches of them. 1359 01:06:36,371 --> 01:06:38,957 And there were numerous credible people 1360 01:06:38,957 --> 01:06:42,585 in downtown Oklahoma City just before the bombing 1361 01:06:42,585 --> 01:06:46,631 that claimed that they saw McVeigh and someone else. 1362 01:06:47,132 --> 01:06:49,509 The government then, about 30 days later, 1363 01:06:49,509 --> 01:06:53,388 said there isn't any John Doe 2. It was a mistake. 1364 01:06:55,056 --> 01:06:58,059 We had learned enough by then 1365 01:06:58,059 --> 01:07:00,478 that we knew there was something wrong. 1366 01:07:02,105 --> 01:07:05,358 Twenty-two eyewitnesses told the FBI 1367 01:07:05,358 --> 01:07:08,028 they saw McVeigh downtown the morning of the bombing, 1368 01:07:08,028 --> 01:07:10,655 and they all saw him with someone else. 1369 01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:15,326 This is Michael Moroz's testimony 1370 01:07:15,326 --> 01:07:19,998 about McVeigh pulling up at Johnny's Tire Shop. 1371 01:07:19,998 --> 01:07:22,042 [Moroz] There was definitely a second person. 1372 01:07:22,042 --> 01:07:24,961 He had dark hair, maybe a dark complexion. 1373 01:07:24,961 --> 01:07:26,504 He wasn't fair-skinned. I'm fair-skinned. 1374 01:07:26,504 --> 01:07:29,049 I can tell the difference between fair and dark skin. 1375 01:07:29,049 --> 01:07:30,508 [Sanders] They brought him in. 1376 01:07:30,508 --> 01:07:33,678 He picks McVeigh out of the lineup, 1377 01:07:34,179 --> 01:07:37,349 and he tells them there was the man in the ball cap 1378 01:07:37,349 --> 01:07:39,642 in the passenger side of the truck. 1379 01:07:42,562 --> 01:07:45,648 I did get a lot of flak from the families and survivors 1380 01:07:45,648 --> 01:07:49,611 when I wanted to find out about the others involved. 1381 01:07:50,070 --> 01:07:53,490 To try and point the blame at somebody else 1382 01:07:53,490 --> 01:07:56,159 besides the people who parked the truck out front 1383 01:07:56,159 --> 01:07:57,619 is irresponsible. 1384 01:07:57,619 --> 01:08:01,539 There are unanswered questions that we want answers to. 1385 01:08:01,539 --> 01:08:05,251 I know that Melissa and Sharon have expressed views 1386 01:08:05,251 --> 01:08:07,754 that they think all the truth will come out in the trial. 1387 01:08:07,754 --> 01:08:10,256 What do you think the truth is in all of this? 1388 01:08:10,256 --> 01:08:11,549 Do you support your parents 1389 01:08:11,549 --> 01:08:13,677 that there are many other people involved? 1390 01:08:13,677 --> 01:08:15,428 Definitely. I believe what they're doing 1391 01:08:15,428 --> 01:08:17,555 is the right thing, they're gonna find the truth, 1392 01:08:17,555 --> 01:08:19,683 and then when they find out the truth 1393 01:08:19,683 --> 01:08:22,852 and, um, and everybody knows what's been going on, 1394 01:08:22,852 --> 01:08:24,896 then we can put this all behind us. 1395 01:08:24,896 --> 01:08:26,606 [dramatic music playing] 1396 01:08:26,606 --> 01:08:28,149 [reporter] A federal judge has moved 1397 01:08:28,149 --> 01:08:30,777 the Oklahoma bombing trial to Denver, 1398 01:08:30,777 --> 01:08:33,822 saying the defendants can't get a fair trial in Oklahoma. 1399 01:08:33,822 --> 01:08:36,908 The judge said that outweighs the wishes of victims' families 1400 01:08:36,908 --> 01:08:38,368 who wanted the trial in Oklahoma, 1401 01:08:38,368 --> 01:08:40,829 making it easier for them to attend. 1402 01:08:41,454 --> 01:08:43,415 What happened April 19th, 1995, 1403 01:08:43,415 --> 01:08:46,084 I don't want anybody to ever forget. 1404 01:08:46,084 --> 01:08:49,087 [Kimble] In the beginning, I started drinking, 1405 01:08:49,087 --> 01:08:52,424 and one night walking back to the bedroom, 1406 01:08:52,424 --> 01:08:55,010 I passed out and cracked my head open. 1407 01:08:55,010 --> 01:08:56,261 And I thought at that time 1408 01:08:56,261 --> 01:08:59,973 I'd better find something positive to do 1409 01:08:59,973 --> 01:09:02,100 or I'm going to kill myself. 1410 01:09:02,642 --> 01:09:07,439 So I started a group called Families and Survivors United. 1411 01:09:08,106 --> 01:09:10,942 The pre-trial hearings started. 1412 01:09:10,942 --> 01:09:15,155 Judge Matsch said, "Okay, you can be in this courtroom, 1413 01:09:15,155 --> 01:09:17,782 but if you want to give an impact statement, 1414 01:09:17,782 --> 01:09:22,454 you better leave, because you can't do both." 1415 01:09:22,954 --> 01:09:24,539 I said, "Wait a minute. 1416 01:09:24,539 --> 01:09:26,875 I have a right to be in that courtroom." 1417 01:09:28,793 --> 01:09:31,588 On April the 19th, 1995, 1418 01:09:31,588 --> 01:09:34,132 the bomb that shattered the Alfred P. Murrah Building 1419 01:09:34,132 --> 01:09:37,469 in Oklahoma City also shattered my life. 1420 01:09:37,469 --> 01:09:39,888 The victims' lobby in the Oklahoma City bombing 1421 01:09:39,888 --> 01:09:41,097 was so powerful 1422 01:09:41,097 --> 01:09:43,308 that they actually got a law passed. 1423 01:09:44,100 --> 01:09:45,185 [Kimble] It was a miracle. 1424 01:09:45,185 --> 01:09:47,562 It went through the House and Senate 1425 01:09:47,562 --> 01:09:50,607 and was signed by Clinton in two days. 1426 01:09:53,526 --> 01:09:55,612 [Ann Curry] Prosecutors in the Oklahoma City bombing case 1427 01:09:55,612 --> 01:09:59,324 have a valuable new witness, Michael Fortier. 1428 01:09:59,324 --> 01:10:00,492 [Ricks] At first, 1429 01:10:00,492 --> 01:10:02,494 Michael Fortier refuses to cooperate. 1430 01:10:02,494 --> 01:10:05,080 But he's got a wife that's pregnant. 1431 01:10:05,705 --> 01:10:09,000 He makes a deal that he will fully cooperate 1432 01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:11,419 as long as Lori doesn't go to prison. 1433 01:10:13,797 --> 01:10:15,590 [reporter] Fortier said, "McVeigh told me 1434 01:10:15,590 --> 01:10:18,927 he wanted to bomb the building on the anniversary of Waco, 1435 01:10:18,927 --> 01:10:20,178 April 19th, 1436 01:10:20,178 --> 01:10:21,554 and that the bombing would trigger 1437 01:10:21,554 --> 01:10:23,807 a second American Revolution." 1438 01:10:24,432 --> 01:10:27,185 McVeigh confided everything in him. 1439 01:10:27,185 --> 01:10:28,728 And-- and to Lori. 1440 01:10:29,437 --> 01:10:32,273 [Toobin] The most memorable moment in the trial to me 1441 01:10:32,273 --> 01:10:37,737 was when Lori Fortier talked about Timothy McVeigh 1442 01:10:37,737 --> 01:10:43,368 getting Campbell's Soup cans out of the kitchen cabinet 1443 01:10:43,368 --> 01:10:46,371 and laying out how he was going to arrange 1444 01:10:46,371 --> 01:10:49,165 the barrels of explosives in the truck. 1445 01:10:49,165 --> 01:10:51,876 It was so real. It was so vivid. 1446 01:10:51,876 --> 01:10:53,378 It was the kind of thing 1447 01:10:53,378 --> 01:10:55,755 you couldn't make up if you wanted to. 1448 01:10:55,755 --> 01:10:59,968 I sat with Michael Fortier for hundreds of hours. 1449 01:11:00,427 --> 01:11:04,556 I know everybody who was called on the Spotlight phone card. 1450 01:11:05,765 --> 01:11:09,102 When you ask me why I'm so confident 1451 01:11:09,102 --> 01:11:10,562 that we got the right guys 1452 01:11:10,562 --> 01:11:13,273 and that there's no one else kind of out there, 1453 01:11:13,273 --> 01:11:16,609 it's because of things like Fortier and the phone card. 1454 01:11:17,318 --> 01:11:20,071 This was the government's version of the case, 1455 01:11:20,530 --> 01:11:25,076 that the Spotlight calling card is the sum and substance 1456 01:11:25,076 --> 01:11:26,870 of McVeigh and Nichols' contacts, 1457 01:11:26,870 --> 01:11:31,416 and it doesn't disclose any co-conspirators. 1458 01:11:33,251 --> 01:11:34,919 [Coulson] I've seen 302s. 1459 01:11:34,919 --> 01:11:37,589 302s are a report by the FBI. 1460 01:11:37,589 --> 01:11:39,758 Private citizens have said the morning of the bombing 1461 01:11:39,758 --> 01:11:43,386 they saw somebody else in that truck with McVeigh. 1462 01:11:43,386 --> 01:11:45,055 That's very troubling to me. 1463 01:11:45,055 --> 01:11:48,933 And I will tell you why I think that never got followed up. 1464 01:11:48,933 --> 01:11:51,144 Had they introduced that 1465 01:11:51,144 --> 01:11:53,480 and followed that line of investigation, 1466 01:11:53,480 --> 01:11:55,440 that would have diminished his culpability. 1467 01:11:55,440 --> 01:11:57,025 The defense didn't bring it up 1468 01:11:57,025 --> 01:12:00,195 because it's one more witness that says McVeigh was there. 1469 01:12:00,904 --> 01:12:04,449 We didn't call any of the eyewitnesses 1470 01:12:04,449 --> 01:12:07,452 because their testimony would have been damaging to McVeigh. 1471 01:12:07,452 --> 01:12:09,621 To call them, we're establishing 1472 01:12:09,621 --> 01:12:14,084 that McVeigh was in downtown Oklahoma City 1473 01:12:14,084 --> 01:12:16,920 when the government's case was largely circumstantial 1474 01:12:16,920 --> 01:12:18,338 that he was there. 1475 01:12:19,464 --> 01:12:22,175 [reporter] The sister of bombing suspect Timothy McVeigh 1476 01:12:22,175 --> 01:12:25,595 says she's sorry she has to cooperate with prosecutors 1477 01:12:25,595 --> 01:12:27,055 in the case against her brother. 1478 01:12:27,055 --> 01:12:29,140 [Jennifer] I think he's been unfairly demonized. 1479 01:12:29,140 --> 01:12:31,142 He's just a normal person. He's... 1480 01:12:31,935 --> 01:12:34,020 not this evil thing they're painting him to be. 1481 01:12:34,020 --> 01:12:37,357 [reporter] She says FBI agents frightened her into cooperating 1482 01:12:37,357 --> 01:12:40,443 by threatening her with prosecution. 1483 01:12:40,985 --> 01:12:42,153 [Wilkinson] I was responsible 1484 01:12:42,153 --> 01:12:44,447 for trying to prepare Jennifer McVeigh 1485 01:12:44,447 --> 01:12:45,949 as a witness. 1486 01:12:46,324 --> 01:12:48,743 Jennifer McVeigh's testimony, 1487 01:12:49,327 --> 01:12:51,329 I think, was dramatic from beginning to end 1488 01:12:51,329 --> 01:12:53,248 because of who she was. 1489 01:12:53,748 --> 01:12:56,876 She said when she heard about the bombing, 1490 01:12:56,876 --> 01:12:58,837 she immediately had this eerie feeling 1491 01:12:58,837 --> 01:13:03,800 that she knew that her brother might have been involved. 1492 01:13:08,138 --> 01:13:09,389 We did our best. 1493 01:13:09,389 --> 01:13:11,683 We put all of our energy and effort into it, 1494 01:13:11,683 --> 01:13:14,936 and we'll wait and see what the jury says. 1495 01:13:14,936 --> 01:13:17,480 [O'Donnell] Giving the court case number 1496 01:13:17,480 --> 01:13:21,609 for The United States v. Timothy James McVeigh. 1497 01:13:21,609 --> 01:13:24,446 Guilty. Guilty on all 11 counts. 1498 01:13:24,446 --> 01:13:26,573 [people cheering] 1499 01:13:29,617 --> 01:13:32,537 [Jones] It's as though Tim wanted us to fail. 1500 01:13:32,537 --> 01:13:34,497 He wanted to say, "I did it." 1501 01:13:34,497 --> 01:13:36,332 But first, he wanted the jury trial 1502 01:13:36,332 --> 01:13:38,918 just in case he got off. 1503 01:13:38,918 --> 01:13:43,548 But then when he didn't get off, then he wanted the fame, 1504 01:13:43,548 --> 01:13:46,843 or infamy, that he did it. 1505 01:13:47,510 --> 01:13:50,055 I went to Tim, and I said, 1506 01:13:50,055 --> 01:13:51,556 "Tim, I need to tell you 1507 01:13:51,556 --> 01:13:55,226 that I'm not... the lawyer you need for the appeal. 1508 01:13:55,226 --> 01:13:57,270 I'm going to seek to withdraw." 1509 01:13:57,729 --> 01:14:00,690 I told him that I had figured out 1510 01:14:00,690 --> 01:14:04,319 where he had lied and the proof that he had lied. 1511 01:14:04,319 --> 01:14:07,030 And when I finished, he said, 1512 01:14:07,030 --> 01:14:09,032 "How would the truth help me?" 1513 01:14:11,534 --> 01:14:15,872 And I mistakenly said, "I don't know that it would." 1514 01:14:18,166 --> 01:14:20,835 [Wilkinson] People forget that a prosecution is not there 1515 01:14:20,835 --> 01:14:25,548 to lay out a historical record of the entire movement 1516 01:14:25,548 --> 01:14:28,635 or in everything that McVeigh ever did in his life. 1517 01:14:28,635 --> 01:14:29,928 That's what history books are for, 1518 01:14:29,928 --> 01:14:31,805 and that's a different-- different goal. 1519 01:14:31,805 --> 01:14:34,265 Here, it was to prove the elements of the crime 1520 01:14:34,265 --> 01:14:36,267 and hold him accountable. 1521 01:14:36,267 --> 01:14:38,937 The criminal law can only do so much. 1522 01:14:39,979 --> 01:14:41,272 And we got everybody 1523 01:14:41,272 --> 01:14:46,111 who was legally, criminally responsible for the bombing. 1524 01:14:46,611 --> 01:14:49,406 There-- there could have been other people who were... 1525 01:14:49,406 --> 01:14:50,865 If we had the evidence, 1526 01:14:50,865 --> 01:14:52,867 could've been criminally culpable. 1527 01:14:52,867 --> 01:14:55,245 But then there's a whole universe of people 1528 01:14:55,245 --> 01:14:56,955 who were not criminally culpable 1529 01:14:56,955 --> 01:15:01,042 but who bear some measure of moral responsibility. 1530 01:15:02,460 --> 01:15:04,004 [Sands] Tim McVeigh was part of the group 1531 01:15:04,004 --> 01:15:06,798 that wanted to declare war on America. 1532 01:15:07,298 --> 01:15:08,508 The government thought, 1533 01:15:08,508 --> 01:15:10,385 "We tried to round them all up once 1534 01:15:10,385 --> 01:15:12,971 with this sedition trial in '88, 1535 01:15:12,971 --> 01:15:14,180 and we blew it. 1536 01:15:14,180 --> 01:15:15,765 We can't do that again. 1537 01:15:16,307 --> 01:15:17,934 We have to limit this." 1538 01:15:18,810 --> 01:15:21,021 And the American people are none the wiser 1539 01:15:21,021 --> 01:15:26,693 about how ugly and how serious some Americans are 1540 01:15:26,693 --> 01:15:29,821 about destroying this nation. 1541 01:15:31,531 --> 01:15:32,824 [gunshots] 1542 01:15:32,824 --> 01:15:34,617 [Boettcher] We always believed 1543 01:15:34,617 --> 01:15:38,079 that there had to be more people involved. 1544 01:15:39,664 --> 01:15:41,666 We started talking to militia groups, 1545 01:15:41,666 --> 01:15:44,294 people who may have supported them. 1546 01:15:44,294 --> 01:15:48,173 These extreme beliefs just weren't held by a few people. 1547 01:15:48,631 --> 01:15:50,592 Actually, there were a lot of people out there 1548 01:15:50,592 --> 01:15:53,553 who felt the way McVeigh did. 1549 01:15:55,513 --> 01:15:59,142 So we would go to places like Elohim City 1550 01:15:59,142 --> 01:16:00,852 in far eastern Oklahoma, 1551 01:16:00,852 --> 01:16:03,521 where we believed that McVeigh had passed through. 1552 01:16:03,521 --> 01:16:05,273 [children singing nursery rhyme] 1553 01:16:05,899 --> 01:16:08,360 [Boettcher] They were following Christian identity. 1554 01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:12,572 Their belief was anything that wasn't white was subhuman. 1555 01:16:12,572 --> 01:16:14,282 If you just want to boil down to it, 1556 01:16:14,282 --> 01:16:15,658 that's what it was. 1557 01:16:18,870 --> 01:16:21,873 [Coulson] Elohim City is key to a lot of things here. 1558 01:16:22,290 --> 01:16:24,834 I think McVeigh definitely was at Elohim City. 1559 01:16:24,834 --> 01:16:28,713 ATF had an informant that put him there, Carol Howe. 1560 01:16:28,713 --> 01:16:30,215 [Boettcher on recording] NBC has learned 1561 01:16:30,215 --> 01:16:32,550 that the community was penetrated by this woman, 1562 01:16:32,550 --> 01:16:35,178 Carol Howe, a paid government informant, 1563 01:16:35,178 --> 01:16:37,555 who was gathering information on possible threats 1564 01:16:37,555 --> 01:16:39,057 against the U.S. government. 1565 01:16:39,057 --> 01:16:41,226 The government acknowledges in federal documents 1566 01:16:41,226 --> 01:16:43,019 that she was their informant. 1567 01:16:43,019 --> 01:16:45,271 [Toobin] Carol Howe was an Oklahoma aristocrat. 1568 01:16:45,271 --> 01:16:49,651 Her father was the CEO of a Fortune 500 company in Tulsa. 1569 01:16:49,651 --> 01:16:52,112 But when she was just into her 20s, 1570 01:16:52,112 --> 01:16:53,738 she got caught up 1571 01:16:53,738 --> 01:16:57,117 with some really crazy right-wing folks. 1572 01:16:57,951 --> 01:17:01,705 At the same time, she became an informant 1573 01:17:01,705 --> 01:17:04,457 for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. 1574 01:17:05,208 --> 01:17:07,752 We started following the trail of neo-Nazis, 1575 01:17:07,752 --> 01:17:09,921 and she had a neo-Nazi boyfriend, 1576 01:17:09,921 --> 01:17:12,298 a guy named Dennis Mahon. 1577 01:17:12,298 --> 01:17:13,758 The faster this country falls, 1578 01:17:13,758 --> 01:17:15,927 the faster we'll be able to rebuild a nation for ourself. 1579 01:17:15,927 --> 01:17:18,221 [Boettcher on recording] Remarkably, Howe and Mahon 1580 01:17:18,221 --> 01:17:22,100 appeared together in a 1994 German television interview. 1581 01:17:22,100 --> 01:17:24,769 Howe gave the government information before the bombing 1582 01:17:24,769 --> 01:17:27,105 on alleged threats by others in Elohim City, 1583 01:17:27,105 --> 01:17:29,607 including this man, Andreas Strassmeir. 1584 01:17:29,607 --> 01:17:30,984 According to federal documents, 1585 01:17:30,984 --> 01:17:33,319 Strassmeir was the military training officer 1586 01:17:33,319 --> 01:17:34,988 for Mahon's organization. 1587 01:17:34,988 --> 01:17:37,282 Strassmeir was last seen in Germany. 1588 01:17:37,282 --> 01:17:39,284 [ominous music playing] 1589 01:17:39,284 --> 01:17:43,121 This is one of Carol Howe's reports to her ATF handler. 1590 01:17:44,039 --> 01:17:46,041 She's talking about Andreas Strassmeir 1591 01:17:46,041 --> 01:17:47,125 at Elohim City. 1592 01:17:48,126 --> 01:17:51,212 "Andy leads the young adults in guerrilla warfare 1593 01:17:51,212 --> 01:17:53,006 and tactical maneuvers. 1594 01:17:53,923 --> 01:17:56,301 His 'plans,' quote, 1595 01:17:56,301 --> 01:18:00,805 are to forcibly act to destroy the U.S. government 1596 01:18:00,805 --> 01:18:03,808 with direct actions and operations, 1597 01:18:03,808 --> 01:18:08,146 assassinations, bombings, mass shootings, et cetera. 1598 01:18:08,146 --> 01:18:11,649 He believes we cannot out-breed the enemy 1599 01:18:11,649 --> 01:18:15,153 so we must use mass genocide against them. 1600 01:18:15,487 --> 01:18:17,655 And of course the biggest enemy-- 1601 01:18:17,655 --> 01:18:19,407 the U.S. government." 1602 01:18:21,368 --> 01:18:22,786 She reported that there was 1603 01:18:22,786 --> 01:18:24,954 an increasing discussion of violence 1604 01:18:24,954 --> 01:18:28,041 and there was a discussion about blowing up a building, 1605 01:18:28,041 --> 01:18:31,753 even to the point that they made a visit 1606 01:18:31,753 --> 01:18:33,421 to Oklahoma City and drove around. 1607 01:18:33,421 --> 01:18:36,091 There wouldn't have probably been an Oklahoma City bombing, 1608 01:18:36,091 --> 01:18:37,342 in my view, 1609 01:18:37,342 --> 01:18:40,637 had Elohim City been investigated more diligently. 1610 01:18:41,221 --> 01:18:43,556 [Sands] Carol Howe knew what was happening 1611 01:18:43,556 --> 01:18:45,809 and she told them she had seen a guy. 1612 01:18:45,809 --> 01:18:47,644 They identified him as Tim Tuttle. 1613 01:18:47,644 --> 01:18:49,604 At the time, she wouldn't have known anything 1614 01:18:49,604 --> 01:18:50,689 about who this guy was. 1615 01:18:50,689 --> 01:18:52,774 But after the bombing, 1616 01:18:52,774 --> 01:18:55,944 she knew it was Tim McVeigh. She had seen his pictures. 1617 01:18:55,944 --> 01:18:58,988 Tim was walking through camp with Andreas Strassmeir, 1618 01:18:58,988 --> 01:19:03,159 just some guy named Tim Tuttle walking with Andy the German. 1619 01:19:03,993 --> 01:19:07,038 Andy Strassmeir was an important person 1620 01:19:07,038 --> 01:19:10,041 that I thought needed to be interviewed. 1621 01:19:10,792 --> 01:19:13,294 I was able to meet with Strassmeir. 1622 01:19:13,294 --> 01:19:16,047 And I asked a simple question. I said, 1623 01:19:16,047 --> 01:19:21,761 "Why is it that there are 302s, FBI 302s, interviews, 1624 01:19:21,761 --> 01:19:26,224 with all of these different radical people... 1625 01:19:27,726 --> 01:19:29,394 but they don't have you?" 1626 01:19:30,353 --> 01:19:32,772 As I expected, you know, he-- he knew nothing. 1627 01:19:32,772 --> 01:19:35,608 He might have met Tim at a gun show. 1628 01:19:35,608 --> 01:19:36,985 Couldn't remember. 1629 01:19:39,738 --> 01:19:41,906 [Strassmeir] I forgot about this person... 1630 01:19:54,669 --> 01:19:56,421 One of the things that really concerned me 1631 01:19:56,421 --> 01:20:00,008 was when I got a hold of McVeigh's phone records. 1632 01:20:00,467 --> 01:20:02,385 He called Elohim City 1633 01:20:02,385 --> 01:20:05,430 two minutes after calling the Ryder Truck company, 1634 01:20:05,430 --> 01:20:09,851 and he asked to speak to Andreas Strassmeir. 1635 01:20:15,774 --> 01:20:18,610 The FBI interviewed thousands of people 1636 01:20:18,610 --> 01:20:19,986 regarding Timothy McVeigh, 1637 01:20:19,986 --> 01:20:23,823 including his second-grade schoolteacher. 1638 01:20:25,408 --> 01:20:27,410 But they didn't think it was important 1639 01:20:27,410 --> 01:20:29,704 to talk to Andreas Strassmeir. 1640 01:20:30,455 --> 01:20:33,667 He wound up leaving the country and went back to Germany. 1641 01:20:33,667 --> 01:20:35,251 It was like more than a year later 1642 01:20:35,251 --> 01:20:38,380 that the FBI called and did a telephone interview with him. 1643 01:20:39,214 --> 01:20:42,092 [Coulson] Strassmeir, there's controversy about him. 1644 01:20:42,092 --> 01:20:44,886 Some people think he's a source of the Israelis, 1645 01:20:44,886 --> 01:20:46,221 and some people think 1646 01:20:46,221 --> 01:20:48,098 he's a source of the West German government. 1647 01:20:48,556 --> 01:20:49,974 At the time, 1648 01:20:49,974 --> 01:20:52,477 the German government was very unhappy with the FBI. 1649 01:20:52,852 --> 01:20:54,104 Because we have guidelines 1650 01:20:54,104 --> 01:20:56,731 on how we investigate domestic terrorism. 1651 01:20:56,731 --> 01:20:58,274 They're pretty limiting. 1652 01:20:58,274 --> 01:21:00,777 And so they wanted to try to get their own information. 1653 01:21:00,777 --> 01:21:02,487 Somebody should have looked at it. 1654 01:21:02,487 --> 01:21:04,280 I personally was responsible 1655 01:21:04,280 --> 01:21:07,033 for searching the intelligence files 1656 01:21:07,033 --> 01:21:08,493 here in the United States, 1657 01:21:08,493 --> 01:21:11,621 and there's no evidence there was foreign involvement. 1658 01:21:11,621 --> 01:21:13,164 McVeigh had met him at a gun show 1659 01:21:13,164 --> 01:21:16,543 and called him, you know, two weeks 1660 01:21:16,543 --> 01:21:19,295 before he engaged in the bombing. 1661 01:21:19,295 --> 01:21:21,172 That doesn't show there's any connection. 1662 01:21:21,172 --> 01:21:23,174 He met lots of people at gun shows. 1663 01:21:24,467 --> 01:21:26,344 [Jones] There was certainly evidence 1664 01:21:26,344 --> 01:21:30,432 that Tim McVeigh had probably been at Elohim City. 1665 01:21:30,849 --> 01:21:33,059 He kept denying that he had been there, 1666 01:21:33,059 --> 01:21:35,478 but yet, he was stopped, I believe, 1667 01:21:35,478 --> 01:21:37,564 by an Arkansas highway patrolman 1668 01:21:37,564 --> 01:21:40,233 on a road that led to Elohim City. 1669 01:21:40,233 --> 01:21:43,153 There were people that said he had been there. 1670 01:21:44,070 --> 01:21:46,698 [Reyna] I told him, I said, "Tim, you know and I know... 1671 01:21:47,323 --> 01:21:49,909 that you were used." He didn't say anything. 1672 01:21:49,909 --> 01:21:52,120 He didn't say, "No, that didn't happen." 1673 01:21:52,120 --> 01:21:54,247 The way that group was always together, 1674 01:21:54,247 --> 01:21:57,083 there's just no way he was not there. 1675 01:21:59,419 --> 01:22:03,048 Strassmeir was there, Ellison was there, 1676 01:22:03,048 --> 01:22:06,134 Snell was buried there in Elohim City. 1677 01:22:07,010 --> 01:22:09,554 [Sanders] On the day Snell was executed, 1678 01:22:09,554 --> 01:22:13,141 he asked for the TV to be turned on in his cell, 1679 01:22:13,141 --> 01:22:15,143 and the prison watch log notes that, 1680 01:22:15,143 --> 01:22:18,104 "Inmate Snell smiled and chuckled 1681 01:22:18,104 --> 01:22:20,815 as he watched the coverage of the Oklahoma City bombing." 1682 01:22:20,815 --> 01:22:25,362 It's just hard for me to believe that it was all coincidence. 1683 01:22:25,987 --> 01:22:27,405 [Wright] It's not a coincidence. 1684 01:22:27,405 --> 01:22:29,449 Remember, the idea of blowing up the Murrah Building 1685 01:22:29,449 --> 01:22:32,994 was hatched ten years earlier among members 1686 01:22:32,994 --> 01:22:35,872 of the Covenant, Sword, and Arm of the Lord. 1687 01:22:35,872 --> 01:22:39,084 This was a plan that not just McVeigh 1688 01:22:39,084 --> 01:22:41,753 but others who were at Elohim City 1689 01:22:41,753 --> 01:22:44,464 decided to resurrect from the ashes. 1690 01:22:45,006 --> 01:22:47,217 [Sands] I came to understand 1691 01:22:47,217 --> 01:22:49,260 Elohim City was the training ground. 1692 01:22:49,260 --> 01:22:51,763 The Covenant, the Sword, and the Arm of the Lord 1693 01:22:51,763 --> 01:22:53,306 had moved its operations 1694 01:22:53,306 --> 01:22:55,433 to the Cookson Hills of Oklahoma. 1695 01:22:55,433 --> 01:22:58,937 And that's where they were gonna train these people 1696 01:22:58,937 --> 01:23:00,605 to overthrow the government. 1697 01:23:00,605 --> 01:23:03,274 These guys were ready for war. 1698 01:23:07,654 --> 01:23:09,614 [reporter] In court, McVeigh watched intently 1699 01:23:09,614 --> 01:23:11,324 as the jury filed in. 1700 01:23:11,324 --> 01:23:14,119 Judge Richard Matsch asked for their decision. 1701 01:23:14,119 --> 01:23:16,621 "The jury recommends the following," said the judge. 1702 01:23:16,621 --> 01:23:20,208 "That Timothy James McVeigh be sentenced to death." 1703 01:23:21,334 --> 01:23:24,963 [Welch] I went to the bomb site every day after the bombing, 1704 01:23:24,963 --> 01:23:28,591 asking myself, "What can I do to feel better?" 1705 01:23:29,801 --> 01:23:31,302 And I finally came to the conclusion 1706 01:23:31,302 --> 01:23:34,097 that the day we would take Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols 1707 01:23:34,097 --> 01:23:35,598 from their cage to kill them 1708 01:23:35,598 --> 01:23:39,436 was simply not going to be part of my healing process. 1709 01:23:41,187 --> 01:23:44,983 [Sanders] My husband was dying during McVeigh's trial. 1710 01:23:45,525 --> 01:23:48,486 The babies are dead, and then Glenn died. 1711 01:23:49,154 --> 01:23:51,156 The trials came and went. 1712 01:23:51,156 --> 01:23:53,658 There's a lot of unanswered questions. 1713 01:23:54,659 --> 01:23:59,998 I believe I owed it to them to continue that journey 1714 01:23:59,998 --> 01:24:03,335 to try to get answers to these questions. 1715 01:24:04,210 --> 01:24:06,338 Over the years, it's been a balancing act, 1716 01:24:06,338 --> 01:24:10,925 almost like a tightrope act for me, to... 1717 01:24:11,384 --> 01:24:14,471 to not get lumped in with the crazies. 1718 01:24:14,471 --> 01:24:19,517 I needed to just find my truth, not invent it. 1719 01:24:20,560 --> 01:24:24,147 I learned about these groups around the country. 1720 01:24:24,147 --> 01:24:26,107 [ominous music playing] 1721 01:24:26,775 --> 01:24:29,027 [Sanders] They thrive on hate. 1722 01:24:29,027 --> 01:24:31,321 And I think it's like a cancer. 1723 01:24:33,114 --> 01:24:35,116 I went to the Aryan Nation compound 1724 01:24:35,116 --> 01:24:36,868 in Hayden Lake, Idaho. 1725 01:24:37,410 --> 01:24:40,163 I'd heard that Timothy McVeigh had been through there, 1726 01:24:40,163 --> 01:24:43,708 and that's how-- They helped shape his hateful ideals. 1727 01:24:46,503 --> 01:24:50,340 And I said, "I'm here to see Pastor Richard Butler." 1728 01:24:51,383 --> 01:24:54,260 For me, he's the head of the snake. 1729 01:24:55,553 --> 01:24:58,890 But I've got a desperation to know the truth, 1730 01:24:59,683 --> 01:25:03,103 and I'm willing to dance with the devil to get it. 1731 01:25:03,812 --> 01:25:05,313 We're talking about creating 1732 01:25:05,313 --> 01:25:07,315 a national state for the white Aryan. 1733 01:25:07,315 --> 01:25:09,859 [Sanders] He begins his sermon, and he looks at me, and he says, 1734 01:25:09,859 --> 01:25:13,571 "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter," 1735 01:25:13,571 --> 01:25:16,074 and that Timothy McVeigh was a great man 1736 01:25:16,074 --> 01:25:17,534 and a martyr for the cause. 1737 01:25:17,534 --> 01:25:19,661 And he actually teared up when he said, 1738 01:25:19,661 --> 01:25:23,623 "I am so sorry about your little Aryan grandsons." 1739 01:25:23,623 --> 01:25:26,584 He said, "I cried when I saw them on TV." 1740 01:25:30,422 --> 01:25:32,841 [Couric] Since the tragedy here in Oklahoma City, 1741 01:25:32,841 --> 01:25:35,010 some of those who lost loved ones 1742 01:25:35,010 --> 01:25:37,637 have found a new purpose in life. 1743 01:25:38,596 --> 01:25:40,765 Bud Welch, Kathy Wilburn, good morning. 1744 01:25:40,765 --> 01:25:43,143 - So nice to see you both. - [both] Good morning. 1745 01:25:43,143 --> 01:25:45,645 I know that both of you call Bill McVeigh, 1746 01:25:45,645 --> 01:25:49,274 Timothy McVeigh's father, the forgotten victim. 1747 01:25:49,274 --> 01:25:51,109 [Sanders] If I put myself in his shoes, 1748 01:25:51,109 --> 01:25:53,111 and I wonder how it must feel to, 1749 01:25:53,111 --> 01:25:55,739 you know, to wait to have your child executed, 1750 01:25:55,739 --> 01:25:57,407 it's got to be terrifying. 1751 01:25:57,407 --> 01:25:59,451 We have to recognize what an execution is. 1752 01:25:59,451 --> 01:26:01,786 An execution is an event. It's staged. 1753 01:26:01,786 --> 01:26:04,247 We know what time the killing's going to happen. 1754 01:26:04,247 --> 01:26:06,583 It's nothing more than a staged political event. 1755 01:26:06,583 --> 01:26:10,211 It does nothing more or less for society than that. 1756 01:26:12,172 --> 01:26:14,799 [Welch] Tim McVeigh's father was on the news. 1757 01:26:16,051 --> 01:26:19,512 I could see this man, a broken man... 1758 01:26:20,180 --> 01:26:21,890 with grief in his eyes. 1759 01:26:23,016 --> 01:26:24,476 And my thought was, 1760 01:26:24,476 --> 01:26:28,855 "I want to go tell that man that I care how he feels, 1761 01:26:29,356 --> 01:26:30,899 and I don't blame him 1762 01:26:30,899 --> 01:26:32,817 for what his son had done." 1763 01:26:35,070 --> 01:26:37,072 When Bill opened the door, 1764 01:26:37,072 --> 01:26:39,491 and he introduced me to Jennifer... 1765 01:26:40,450 --> 01:26:44,829 and there's a picture kind of behind me of Tim. 1766 01:26:45,497 --> 01:26:47,916 I looked at Bill out of the corner of my eye, 1767 01:26:47,916 --> 01:26:51,252 and I could see at that moment... 1768 01:26:52,420 --> 01:26:55,840 a love that this father had for this son. 1769 01:26:56,758 --> 01:27:00,845 And Jennifer just kind of went to sobbing. 1770 01:27:01,304 --> 01:27:03,682 And I held her face in my hands, 1771 01:27:03,682 --> 01:27:05,350 and I said, "Honey, 1772 01:27:06,059 --> 01:27:08,019 I'll do everything I can 1773 01:27:09,187 --> 01:27:12,691 to keep your brother from being killed." 1774 01:27:13,441 --> 01:27:16,069 All of a sudden, it felt like this tremendous weight 1775 01:27:16,069 --> 01:27:18,363 had been removed from my shoulders, 1776 01:27:18,363 --> 01:27:22,033 and I never felt closer to God than I did at that moment. 1777 01:27:22,701 --> 01:27:25,412 Because what I recognized that... 1778 01:27:25,412 --> 01:27:27,831 that Saturday morning was... 1779 01:27:30,125 --> 01:27:33,378 the day that we... that our parents die, 1780 01:27:33,378 --> 01:27:36,131 we go to the hilltop and we bury them. 1781 01:27:36,881 --> 01:27:41,386 The day our children die, we bury them in our heart, 1782 01:27:42,012 --> 01:27:43,805 and that never goes away. 1783 01:27:44,806 --> 01:27:46,850 [somber music playing] 1784 01:27:50,437 --> 01:27:52,397 [reporter] Terry Nichols entered the courthouse 1785 01:27:52,397 --> 01:27:54,232 on the first day of his trial. 1786 01:27:54,232 --> 01:27:55,942 He will face a crowd of people. 1787 01:27:55,942 --> 01:27:59,738 Twelve of those could ultimately decide if he dies. 1788 01:28:01,239 --> 01:28:02,574 [Boettcher] If I had the opportunity 1789 01:28:02,574 --> 01:28:06,745 to sit down with Terry Nichols, 1790 01:28:06,745 --> 01:28:10,040 I would press on who else was involved. 1791 01:28:10,040 --> 01:28:11,708 Where did the money come from? 1792 01:28:12,500 --> 01:28:15,295 [man 1] Yes! Much to plunder. 1793 01:28:16,421 --> 01:28:18,757 [man 2] I see you boys had a good mission. 1794 01:28:18,757 --> 01:28:20,633 - Nest egg! - [Boettcher] Did the funding 1795 01:28:20,633 --> 01:28:23,345 for the Oklahoma City bombing come from those bank robberies 1796 01:28:23,345 --> 01:28:25,847 that were done by radical groups? 1797 01:28:26,514 --> 01:28:28,308 [Boettcher on recording] The Midwestern Bank Bandits 1798 01:28:28,308 --> 01:28:29,768 are white supremacists 1799 01:28:29,768 --> 01:28:33,355 who allegedly robbed 22 banks in seven states. 1800 01:28:33,355 --> 01:28:36,608 The take: $250,000. 1801 01:28:36,608 --> 01:28:38,193 Law enforcement officials believe 1802 01:28:38,193 --> 01:28:41,237 the money was distributed to other white supremacist groups. 1803 01:28:41,821 --> 01:28:43,990 Members of the gang were frequent visitors 1804 01:28:43,990 --> 01:28:45,617 to Elohim City. 1805 01:28:47,494 --> 01:28:50,121 [Sands] Tim had no visible means of support. 1806 01:28:51,122 --> 01:28:53,875 You gotta feed yourself, you gotta keep the car going, 1807 01:28:53,875 --> 01:28:55,293 you gotta have money for... 1808 01:28:55,293 --> 01:28:57,295 just to be able to spend the night someplace. 1809 01:28:57,295 --> 01:28:59,089 He was always renting a room. 1810 01:28:59,631 --> 01:29:01,257 Where'd the money come from? 1811 01:29:01,800 --> 01:29:06,513 And then I read his sister said that he told her in this letter 1812 01:29:06,513 --> 01:29:09,140 that he got some money out of robbing banks. 1813 01:29:09,140 --> 01:29:10,684 And there were other robberies. 1814 01:29:10,684 --> 01:29:13,478 He also robbed a gun dealer named Roger Moore. 1815 01:29:13,478 --> 01:29:14,813 [Boettcher on recording] About six months 1816 01:29:14,813 --> 01:29:16,606 before the Oklahoma City bombing, 1817 01:29:16,606 --> 01:29:19,651 a masked gunman allegedly robbed gun dealer Roger Moore 1818 01:29:19,651 --> 01:29:22,654 of gold bullion, coins, and weapons. 1819 01:29:22,654 --> 01:29:25,073 [Michel] McVeigh met this fellow, Roger Moore, 1820 01:29:25,073 --> 01:29:26,408 at one of the gun shows, 1821 01:29:26,408 --> 01:29:29,828 and they become something of business partners. 1822 01:29:31,037 --> 01:29:33,873 He and Roger Moore ultimately had a falling out, 1823 01:29:33,873 --> 01:29:37,961 and McVeigh is the mastermind behind a robbery 1824 01:29:37,961 --> 01:29:39,337 at Roger Moore's house. 1825 01:29:39,337 --> 01:29:42,882 And Terry Nichols committed the robbery. 1826 01:29:42,882 --> 01:29:44,676 [Wilkinson] Roger Moore was called as a witness 1827 01:29:44,676 --> 01:29:47,387 because Terry Nichols and Timothy McVeigh 1828 01:29:47,387 --> 01:29:49,389 stole weapons from him, 1829 01:29:49,389 --> 01:29:54,019 and they were used in part to fund the bombing. 1830 01:29:55,687 --> 01:29:57,313 [Sanders] At Terry Nichols' trial, 1831 01:29:57,313 --> 01:29:59,524 he was not like Timothy McVeigh at all. 1832 01:29:59,524 --> 01:30:01,609 He didn't make eye contact with anyone. 1833 01:30:01,609 --> 01:30:03,862 He was always looking down. 1834 01:30:04,988 --> 01:30:06,865 When the judge had a recess, 1835 01:30:06,865 --> 01:30:09,659 I saw this little lady standing out in the hall. 1836 01:30:10,535 --> 01:30:13,038 I realized it was Terry Nichols' mother. 1837 01:30:13,038 --> 01:30:15,915 I walked up to her. I said, "I'm Kathy Wilburn." 1838 01:30:15,915 --> 01:30:18,877 She begins to cry and said, "I know who you are. 1839 01:30:19,544 --> 01:30:21,838 I've seen you on TV." 1840 01:30:21,838 --> 01:30:23,590 And I put my arms around her, and I said, 1841 01:30:23,590 --> 01:30:27,302 "Well, I want you to know how sorry I am for your family." 1842 01:30:27,302 --> 01:30:29,095 And then we went back in the courtroom 1843 01:30:29,095 --> 01:30:30,889 and I just sat down with her. 1844 01:30:30,889 --> 01:30:33,641 It was like Terry Nichols, the bomber, 1845 01:30:33,641 --> 01:30:36,561 became my friend Joyce's son. 1846 01:30:38,813 --> 01:30:40,398 The jury thought he was guilty, 1847 01:30:40,398 --> 01:30:42,192 but they didn't know how guilty. 1848 01:30:42,192 --> 01:30:44,277 They had questions just like I did. 1849 01:30:45,111 --> 01:30:46,780 [reporter] The jury found Nichols guilty 1850 01:30:46,780 --> 01:30:50,492 of only conspiracy and involuntary manslaughter. 1851 01:30:50,492 --> 01:30:51,951 Nichols won't get the death penalty 1852 01:30:51,951 --> 01:30:54,704 for his federal conspiracy conviction. 1853 01:30:55,205 --> 01:30:57,082 There are other people out there, 1854 01:30:57,082 --> 01:31:00,460 and decisions were probably made very early on 1855 01:31:00,460 --> 01:31:02,337 that Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols 1856 01:31:02,337 --> 01:31:03,963 were who they were looking for, 1857 01:31:03,963 --> 01:31:07,759 and the same sort of resources were not used 1858 01:31:07,759 --> 01:31:10,136 to try to find out who else might be involved. 1859 01:31:11,971 --> 01:31:15,308 [Sanders] A few days after the trial, I had a letter. 1860 01:31:15,308 --> 01:31:17,977 Return address was Terry Nichols. 1861 01:31:17,977 --> 01:31:24,192 And I thought, "Mm, you know, I'm not looking for a pen pal. 1862 01:31:24,192 --> 01:31:27,362 And if I was, it wouldn't be the Oklahoma City bomber." 1863 01:31:27,362 --> 01:31:30,115 And then it kind of like dawned on me, 1864 01:31:30,115 --> 01:31:33,326 "Well, who's going to know more about the bombing 1865 01:31:33,326 --> 01:31:34,953 than the bomber himself?" 1866 01:31:36,413 --> 01:31:38,873 We started writing back and forth. 1867 01:31:39,916 --> 01:31:41,626 [Coss] The Terry Nichols relationship, 1868 01:31:41,626 --> 01:31:43,253 I still don't really understand it. 1869 01:31:43,253 --> 01:31:44,754 I frequently tell my mom, 1870 01:31:44,754 --> 01:31:47,173 and when we do presentations around the United States, 1871 01:31:47,173 --> 01:31:48,758 that if I ever saw Terry Nichols 1872 01:31:48,758 --> 01:31:50,719 and we were in a room together for five minutes, 1873 01:31:50,719 --> 01:31:52,303 I'd be the only one that comes out. 1874 01:31:52,303 --> 01:31:54,431 [birds chirping] 1875 01:31:54,431 --> 01:31:56,808 [Sanders] I have forgiven, yes. 1876 01:31:56,808 --> 01:31:59,894 Do I think people should be punished? Yes. 1877 01:31:59,894 --> 01:32:03,148 Forgiveness and punishment are two different things. 1878 01:32:03,148 --> 01:32:07,318 I want everybody involved in this to be accountable. 1879 01:32:08,236 --> 01:32:11,072 You know, forgiveness is a choice you make. 1880 01:32:11,531 --> 01:32:13,533 You can forgive... 1881 01:32:14,325 --> 01:32:16,286 or you can stay bitter. 1882 01:32:16,578 --> 01:32:19,581 And forgiving Terry Nichols 1883 01:32:19,581 --> 01:32:21,499 was one of the best choices I ever made. 1884 01:32:21,499 --> 01:32:23,209 It changed my life. 1885 01:32:25,170 --> 01:32:28,757 Terry Nichols was remorseful, unlike McVeigh. 1886 01:32:28,757 --> 01:32:32,135 And he told me, "Whenever I'm not under the threat 1887 01:32:32,135 --> 01:32:36,014 of the death penalty anymore, I'm gonna tell you everything." 1888 01:32:36,014 --> 01:32:37,766 And he has tried. 1889 01:32:40,101 --> 01:32:43,563 I'd like to read you part of this letter 1890 01:32:43,563 --> 01:32:46,066 that Terry Nichols sent me. 1891 01:32:47,025 --> 01:32:49,778 "So to put everything in a nutshell, Kathy, 1892 01:32:49,778 --> 01:32:53,573 Timothy McVeigh was the manipulated foot soldier, 1893 01:32:53,573 --> 01:32:55,283 Roger Moore the middleman 1894 01:32:55,283 --> 01:32:57,660 who supplied Tim with encouragement, 1895 01:32:57,660 --> 01:33:00,705 instructions, and some explosives. 1896 01:33:00,705 --> 01:33:05,710 And the top dog, the director who orchestrated it all, 1897 01:33:05,710 --> 01:33:09,964 is a rogue FBI agent with the help of others 1898 01:33:09,964 --> 01:33:12,258 who I will not name at this time." 1899 01:33:12,258 --> 01:33:14,177 [somber music playing] 1900 01:33:15,136 --> 01:33:15,929 [Sanders] I don't know 1901 01:33:15,929 --> 01:33:17,806 if what he wrote was true or not, 1902 01:33:17,806 --> 01:33:20,642 but after that letter, he was notified by the warden 1903 01:33:20,642 --> 01:33:23,645 that I was to be taken off of his calling list. 1904 01:33:26,064 --> 01:33:27,899 We've been stopped. 1905 01:33:32,862 --> 01:33:34,364 [reporter] Here's how it works. 1906 01:33:34,364 --> 01:33:36,658 Timothy McVeigh lives in a special confinement unit. 1907 01:33:36,658 --> 01:33:39,411 That is the building there with the green roof. 1908 01:33:39,411 --> 01:33:44,124 He will be transported by van to the execution house. 1909 01:33:47,419 --> 01:33:49,212 [Herbeck] He told us that, 1910 01:33:49,212 --> 01:33:51,965 "When the federal government puts me to death, 1911 01:33:51,965 --> 01:33:53,925 I'm still gonna be the winner, 1912 01:33:53,925 --> 01:33:56,803 because it's 168 for Tim McVeigh 1913 01:33:56,803 --> 01:33:58,930 and one for the government." 1914 01:34:04,769 --> 01:34:07,355 [Michel] You have these three tubes 1915 01:34:07,355 --> 01:34:09,024 that are coming out of a wall 1916 01:34:09,024 --> 01:34:13,028 with the three chemicals, poison, to kill him. 1917 01:34:16,031 --> 01:34:18,324 The executioner was given the order, 1918 01:34:18,324 --> 01:34:21,619 and all of a sudden these tubes started swaying 1919 01:34:21,619 --> 01:34:23,705 in, like, this ghostly way. 1920 01:34:24,289 --> 01:34:28,209 And meanwhile, McVeigh is looking straight up at a camera 1921 01:34:28,209 --> 01:34:32,464 that is giving a live feed to an auditorium 1922 01:34:32,464 --> 01:34:35,800 where other victims, and family members, 1923 01:34:35,800 --> 01:34:38,678 survivors are watching. 1924 01:34:41,389 --> 01:34:44,851 [Sanders] He glares this "go to hell" look at us. 1925 01:34:44,851 --> 01:34:46,978 They push the button... 1926 01:34:47,645 --> 01:34:50,857 and he went... [gasps softly] He was gone. 1927 01:34:54,944 --> 01:34:57,155 [Michel] He died with his eyes open. 1928 01:35:03,495 --> 01:35:05,997 [Clinton] I wondered what would've happened if... 1929 01:35:05,997 --> 01:35:09,167 I'd known Timothy McVeigh when he was a boy. 1930 01:35:09,167 --> 01:35:12,671 I wonder if I would have gone out of my way to befriend him. 1931 01:35:12,671 --> 01:35:15,465 I wonder if-- You know, you can-- 1932 01:35:15,465 --> 01:35:17,008 I wonder about all that. 1933 01:35:17,008 --> 01:35:21,513 McVeigh was a tragic example of a guy who thought 1934 01:35:21,513 --> 01:35:23,014 our differences were more important 1935 01:35:23,014 --> 01:35:24,516 than what we have in common. 1936 01:35:24,516 --> 01:35:28,853 Were there objective reasons that he felt the way he did, 1937 01:35:28,853 --> 01:35:31,356 both personal and psychological? 1938 01:35:31,356 --> 01:35:32,691 Absolutely. 1939 01:35:32,691 --> 01:35:35,026 And political and economic? Yes. 1940 01:35:35,026 --> 01:35:37,195 But we can't blow the house up. 1941 01:35:39,072 --> 01:35:41,324 It doesn't matter whether he was right 1942 01:35:41,324 --> 01:35:43,368 about anything or not. 1943 01:35:43,368 --> 01:35:44,703 What matters is he decided 1944 01:35:44,703 --> 01:35:46,621 he should kill people he didn't know, 1945 01:35:46,621 --> 01:35:48,373 including little kids. 1946 01:35:49,082 --> 01:35:52,168 But the words he used, the arguments he made... 1947 01:35:52,919 --> 01:35:56,423 literally sound like the mainstream today. 1948 01:35:56,423 --> 01:35:57,882 Like he won. 1949 01:35:58,883 --> 01:36:01,219 [bagpipes playing] 1950 01:36:17,736 --> 01:36:21,489 Tim McVeigh set out to destroy the government. 1951 01:36:22,073 --> 01:36:23,742 He destroyed my family. 1952 01:36:24,409 --> 01:36:27,829 My brothers passed away in the Oklahoma City bombing, 1953 01:36:27,829 --> 01:36:29,789 and we go there to remember. 1954 01:36:30,790 --> 01:36:32,417 [man] The risk of terrorism, 1955 01:36:32,417 --> 01:36:34,461 it's always kind of in the back of your head. 1956 01:36:36,087 --> 01:36:39,549 [Kimble] I think there will be civil war in our country. 1957 01:36:40,592 --> 01:36:42,093 It's frightening. 1958 01:36:42,886 --> 01:36:45,096 But there are lessons to be learned 1959 01:36:45,096 --> 01:36:48,058 from what happened here in Oklahoma City. 1960 01:36:48,641 --> 01:36:52,645 The reason we come back here every year 1961 01:36:52,645 --> 01:36:54,606 is that this wasn't a one-off thing. 1962 01:36:54,606 --> 01:36:56,941 It can really happen again. 1963 01:36:58,026 --> 01:37:01,404 Where we're standing now was the Alfred P. Murrah Building. 1964 01:37:01,905 --> 01:37:06,076 The empty chairs represent the 168 victims. 1965 01:37:06,451 --> 01:37:09,204 The gate behind me says "9:01," 1966 01:37:09,204 --> 01:37:13,083 the moment of innocence before the bombing. 1967 01:37:13,083 --> 01:37:17,253 The gate over your shoulder says "9:03," 1968 01:37:17,253 --> 01:37:18,797 the aftermath. 1969 01:37:18,797 --> 01:37:20,215 Today. 1970 01:37:21,591 --> 01:37:26,513 This year we're living in is not much different from 1995. 1971 01:37:27,097 --> 01:37:29,557 People yelling at each other, 1972 01:37:29,557 --> 01:37:33,520 not making arguments based on fact, but emotion. 1973 01:37:34,646 --> 01:37:36,439 Many folks feel left behind. 1974 01:37:36,439 --> 01:37:39,067 Like their American dream has been stolen. 1975 01:37:39,067 --> 01:37:43,905 [all chanting] No sale! No sale! No sale! No sale! No sale! 1976 01:37:43,905 --> 01:37:45,198 No sale! No sale! 1977 01:37:45,198 --> 01:37:48,118 [Boettcher] That rage doesn't disappear. 1978 01:37:48,910 --> 01:37:50,912 It can explode on the fringes, 1979 01:37:50,912 --> 01:37:54,958 as we've seen too many times since April 19th, 1995. 1980 01:37:54,958 --> 01:37:56,960 [indistinct yelling] 1981 01:37:58,169 --> 01:38:00,005 [Boettcher] The Oklahoma City bombing 1982 01:38:00,005 --> 01:38:01,756 was a crossroads. 1983 01:38:02,173 --> 01:38:05,677 It was a huge signpost in history. 1984 01:38:05,677 --> 01:38:08,013 "America, wake up." 1985 01:38:08,013 --> 01:38:11,349 But I think that sign got blown down. 1986 01:38:11,349 --> 01:38:12,934 [reporter 1] ... a mass shooting. 1987 01:38:12,934 --> 01:38:15,061 [reporter 2] ...180-page manifesto. 1988 01:38:15,061 --> 01:38:17,355 [reporter 3] He didn't come to worship. He came to kill. 1989 01:38:17,355 --> 01:38:19,691 [reporter 4] Tree of Life has never been the same. 1990 01:38:19,691 --> 01:38:22,819 [Noble] Every time I hear a news report on mass shootings, 1991 01:38:22,819 --> 01:38:26,656 and domestic terrorism, right-wing extremism, 1992 01:38:26,656 --> 01:38:30,243 it always reminds me of when I was in the movement, 1993 01:38:30,243 --> 01:38:33,121 how dangerously close we as a group got, 1994 01:38:33,121 --> 01:38:35,707 how dangerously close I got 1995 01:38:35,707 --> 01:38:38,376 to committing domestic terrorism. 1996 01:38:40,545 --> 01:38:44,507 So much has changed from our days back in the '80s. 1997 01:38:44,966 --> 01:38:48,970 How mainstream extremism has become, 1998 01:38:49,637 --> 01:38:51,556 that was something we hoped for. 1999 01:38:51,973 --> 01:38:55,268 I'm seeing that now, and honestly, it scares me. 2000 01:38:56,394 --> 01:38:58,229 The closest thing that has happened 2001 01:38:58,229 --> 01:38:59,981 since Oklahoma City, of course, 2002 01:38:59,981 --> 01:39:03,568 is the January 6th riot on the Capitol Building. 2003 01:39:03,568 --> 01:39:05,403 [indistinct yelling] 2004 01:39:08,031 --> 01:39:09,199 [Coss] On January 6th, 2005 01:39:09,199 --> 01:39:12,035 I was the emergency planning specialist 2006 01:39:12,035 --> 01:39:13,161 with the incident commander 2007 01:39:13,161 --> 01:39:14,454 and everybody else who showed up. 2008 01:39:14,454 --> 01:39:16,539 So I was at that scene for about 18 hours. 2009 01:39:16,539 --> 01:39:17,916 [all yelling] 2010 01:39:17,916 --> 01:39:20,168 [Sanders] When I saw the storming of the Capitol 2011 01:39:20,168 --> 01:39:24,297 on January 6th, I'm thinking, "What's the chances 2012 01:39:24,297 --> 01:39:26,466 that my boy's gonna be down at the bombing 2013 01:39:26,466 --> 01:39:28,927 and gonna be involved in this as well?" 2014 01:39:28,927 --> 01:39:31,888 And I was concerned for his safety. 2015 01:39:31,888 --> 01:39:34,099 [all yelling] 2016 01:39:34,099 --> 01:39:36,768 [Coss] There's no call for what they did on January 6th. 2017 01:39:36,768 --> 01:39:38,395 What they did was wrong, 2018 01:39:38,395 --> 01:39:40,271 and they should be prosecuted for it. 2019 01:39:42,065 --> 01:39:44,109 Every single day, we have protests. 2020 01:39:45,068 --> 01:39:47,737 The majority of the people up there are peaceful. 2021 01:39:48,863 --> 01:39:51,950 But as long as our country continues to divide itself, 2022 01:39:51,950 --> 01:39:54,119 I believe there's more to come. 2023 01:39:54,786 --> 01:39:58,456 You poke a dog long enough, the dog's going to bite. 2024 01:39:58,456 --> 01:40:01,459 If you're going to push people to the extremes, 2025 01:40:02,127 --> 01:40:04,129 violence is inevitable. 2026 01:40:13,346 --> 01:40:16,224 [Sanders] I drove up to this building a hundred times. 2027 01:40:16,224 --> 01:40:21,730 We used to go on our break up there over that wall. 2028 01:40:21,730 --> 01:40:23,773 - Mm-hmm. - We would stay... 2029 01:40:23,773 --> 01:40:25,316 We'd take treats and stuff 2030 01:40:25,316 --> 01:40:27,736 and go up there and watch the kids play in the playground. 2031 01:40:27,736 --> 01:40:29,154 [Coss chuckles] 2032 01:40:29,154 --> 01:40:31,072 That's where I found Colton. You know that, right? 2033 01:40:31,072 --> 01:40:32,741 - Yeah. - Right there. 2034 01:40:32,741 --> 01:40:34,743 [somber music playing] 2035 01:40:37,412 --> 01:40:39,873 [Sanders] When I delved into the bombing 2036 01:40:39,873 --> 01:40:41,833 and started having questions, 2037 01:40:41,833 --> 01:40:43,543 I told a reporter, I said, 2038 01:40:43,543 --> 01:40:47,464 "You know, it's not going to be too many years 2039 01:40:47,464 --> 01:40:49,924 that when I tell someone I lost my grandchildren 2040 01:40:49,924 --> 01:40:51,926 in the bombing, they'll say, 'Which one?'" 2041 01:40:51,926 --> 01:40:54,387 - Exactly. - And that's where we are today. 2042 01:40:59,517 --> 01:41:02,562 It's still hard to believe it's been 28 years. 2043 01:41:03,855 --> 01:41:05,315 Yeah. 2044 01:41:06,316 --> 01:41:08,443 Love you guys. We'll see you next year. 2045 01:41:08,443 --> 01:41:09,736 You ready? 2046 01:41:10,612 --> 01:41:12,572 Yeah. Bye, guys. 2047 01:41:45,021 --> 01:41:47,315 [somber music playing] 153501

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