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[Matt Ross-Spang] America is
a relatively new country.

We don't have like
old Templar Knight churches.

To me, that's the old
recording studios.

Those are kind of our temples,
our castles.

[Mark]
A traditional studio
that's properly put together

could be a magical place,
we call them "temples of sound".

The first time I walked into
a recording studio I knew
that's where I wanted to be.

[Steven]
It's really about an
environment, uh,

that was specifically created
for recording.

So it's not in someone's house
or basement,

it's a specific place
just for the process
of making music.

[Marc] The traditional recording
studio has just got to be
an environment

that fosters creativity and
gives everyone an opportunity
to make something magical.

[rock music playing]

[music stops playing]

When I was growing up the bands,
the only dream we had was we
gotta go get in the studio.

When bands do finally make
that decision that they--

"You know what, let's take our
game up a little bit"

most of the time they think
about going into a studio.

If you wanted to do a
multi-track production,

you kind of had to go someplace

that had a pretty fair amount of
relatively expensive gear,

and there weren't a lot of
people with experience in
operating that gear,

and getting stuff done that way.

So you automatically,
by engaging that process,

you brought yourself
into a kind of a certain level
of participation.

You know, you just want to get
out of your environment

and go to this new place
where the entire focus is about
creating this art.

You know, it's about
the environment,
and the character, the vibe,

and the accommodations,
and the service,
so that you get your job done.

And of course, the equipment
should all be pristine and
everything should be there,

so you can, you know,
create your art in the most
respectful fashion.

The benefit
of the recording studio has
always been the kind of temple,

the safe space for an artist
to go, you know,
for musicians to go.

I think it helps when they're
well equipped, regardless of,

uh, how elaborate the design
might be.

I think it helps to have
instruments and equipment
that's available to musicians.

They're artists that don't have
access to those things usually,
you know.

They for instance, maybe
they've always been using a
synthesizer for a piano patch

or an organ patch.

To some degree there's a real
experience when they sit behind
a real piano, you know.

Different things happen,
accidents happen.

Try and really make the
technical aspect work in
support of the musical aspect.

If you have ideas
or if you're getting creative,

you don't wanna wait to get into
the creative process.

You wanna say
that "I wanna be
able to do this"

and a good engineer will have
you ready to do that quickly.

You know, we worked in these
amazing facilities.

We could have anything
we wanted.

We had all the best studios,
we had all the best gear,

the best musicians, the best
engineers, the best producers,
the best writers,

everyone who
is at the top of their game.

[rock music playing]

The acoustics that you're
recording in make
a pretty big imprint

on the recording
that you make.

The room accentuates
the music you put in there.

[Richard]
I love how they sound.

I mean how acoustically
it's just peaceful

and somehow I find
that very focusing.

[Michael] Well-designed studios,
well-designed control rooms,

and well-designed, uh,
isolation rooms are invaluable.

There's no replacing a sound
quality that you can get, the
space factor is enormous.

Hospital-grade power,
and all the floating floors,
and custom hanging ceiling,

and just doing everything like
acoustically correct,

and the lighting, changing the
feel if you change the color.

Like there's a it's
creative environment,

it's a fun environment,
people are comfortable.

Just wanna feel creative and
we hear all the time people say,

"I never worked
so creatively so fast.

I just felt as in the space
and it's just it's neat

and you just feel creative
and you just kinda get
into your work."

I love being in studios.
I love it. I've always loved it
since I was a kid.

It always seemed like this
incredibly cool laboratory,
you know.

And I love that environment.

[Matt Sawicki] You can come here
and be as loud as you want.

Nobody will come and tell
you not to be.

Being able to check out
on reality of the world, and be
able to just be in this space,

and doing your own thing,
and not have to worry about

what else is happening
is like very powerful.

[rock music playing]

People don't often think about
the building facility really
being part of a tool.

They think about it
when they're in their basement

and the heater kicks on
in the middle of the take,

and they think about it when the
train goes by, or they think
about it when it starts raining,

but when you're in a building
like this,

uh, those things
aren't problems.

[Barry] The studio in themselves
have the expertise and history
behind them to,

I think, improve upon
what the general public can do.

I make it a point, with almost
every record that I make,

to include some aspect of the
recording in a,
"real recording studio".

It's important.

You know, you go to the right
place, it's not gonna get
worse, you know.

It can only... You know,
there's only levels of winning.

Just spend a little money on it.

They see that,
and they experience that,
and they feel like music stars,

and they should feel like music
stars, they deserve that,

and I think it certainly doesn't
hurt their performance.

This person is renting
a space, buying a space.

They're buying more
and more equipment.

They're putting in the effort
to make this a business.

First of all, you have
to absolutely love what you do.

You have to really love it.
It's not an easy business.

I mean you're working very hard
for a very boutique industry.

And even regardless of
a studio space, you know,

the engineer is probably more
important than the room,
you know.

It's always been the engineer,
and then the gear,
and then the room, to me.

The mix of the really good
talented people that we have,
where we have the music,

the ears, the understanding
of corporate communications,
the understanding of broadcast.

I know my limitations
and I depend heavily
on the engineer.

I trust their ears.

I trust their instincts.

Now, at the end of the day, I'm
producing the project and the
final call is obviously mine,

but I love working
with engineers who are also
musicians,

who know me and have
the kind of relationship with me

where they want my music to be
the best it can be.

I'm not a transaction to them.

I think the three of us as
individuals are all smart enough

to realize that we're not very
intelligent.

[Kenny laughing]

So we're better off just to like
listen to somebody

that knows what the hell
they're talking about.

Okay, at this point,
he's like the fourth member.

Like he just really clicked
with us.

He'll have an idea, we listen.

We're not, you know, like,
"No, that's stupid or whatever,"

unless it's stupid,
which is very rare.

First of all, the energy in the
control room for me is special.

I think that translates
for the artist.

The artist has a little
audience, but a very loving
and supportive one.

[Kristeen] Tony is a great vocal
coach. I've really never found
anybody else

who makes me feel as
supported.

Like he won't just say,
"Great vocal", you know,
like which--

[laughs]
So many people do.

Like he gives me very specific
feedback and I like that.

The important aspect
of the recording process
is that you go somewhere

that makes you feel creative
and you have people around you
to help you feel creative.

I think a lot of people can
record themselves at home,

but I know for me I need to
collaborate with people.

And, you know, really when you
can, uh, devote your time
to just the one aspect,

you can do it so much better

than when you're trying to split
yourself between all these
different roles.

I don't trust myself completely
just to do everything on my own.

I don't know if I have enough
love to make an entire record
all by myself,

but I know with twelve other
people, we could certainly get
up enough love and emotion.

To invest that record and that's
what it is about being in a
studio, it's that process.

One of the reasons why
I've been playing music

and playing in bands
for as long as I has now

is because I get to
have very close relationships

where we have shared goals
and those relationships

that I get through my band are
probably the most important
adult relationships that I have.

But when I'm working with people
and they value the integrity of
the music as much as I do,

then I can trust them, and this
is how I know they do, 'cause
they're not afraid to tell me,

"No, dude. I wouldn't do that."

[Steve] Having been in bands
and being a musician makes me

sympathetic to the bands
that I'm working with.

It also gives me a perspective
where I kind of understand
their problems, you know.

And if there's a conflict
or if there's a some problem,
it's likely a problem

that I've experienced firsthand
and so it makes me
sympathetic.

And in some cases, I'll have an
insight of how to get through
a situation without,

you know, ruffling anybody's
feathers or without causing
an additional suffering.

[Vance] Everything for me
is about the sound.

I will talk to guitar players
and guitar players who worked
with me would back me up.

I will literally talk to them
about I need something
that goes

[mimicking guitar sounds]

You know, and they'll
go, "Oh, like, uh."

I think there's a sense of
play with me in the studio
and there's a sense of, uh,

exploration and curiosity, uh,
which hopefully they find fun
and, uh, and useful.

I'm gonna be able to help you
achieve your vision,

and you're gonna be happy with
your product,
and you're gonna run out,

and you're gonna go
wanna sell your product.

Part of our job is to give it
longevity and depth,

putting things that you
know will be discovered,
not on the fifth listen,

not on the tenth listen,
but maybe on the fifteenth
listen,

because there's nothing better
for me than when someone says,

"Steve, what's that little sound
that's on that song?"

and you go, "Now,
for you to know
that little sound

means you've heard that song
fifteen, twenty times

and if you've heard that song
fifteen or twenty times,

it means that it means
something to you."

I think it's important

to find people, whether it's
engineers or mastering people
or whoever,

mixers, that, you know,
inevitably can have a stake
in what it is you do.

I've always, always
enjoyed being in a big studio.

Um, it feels better, it sounds
better, all that stuff is great.

But there's limitations there.

There was only a limited
selection of professional
audio gear

that was available in the '50s
and '60s, and Technisonic
had all of it.

It had the big microphones,
the instruments, the reverb
chambers, the EMT 140s,

and Ampex tape recorders,
and Mr. Harrison was always keen
on getting the latest thing.

So we had access
to virtually everything,

but it was a concrete floor,
the Transite walls.

And you're familiar
with that material,

it's a kind of a hard asbestos
like material with holes
drilled in it.

So it was very institutional.

We had big incandescent lights
in the control room, and I spoke
to Geoff Emerick about this,

and he laughed, because
it's just like Abbey Road.

But the fact is most
professional recording studios

in that era were equipped
very similarly.

[Doug] Working on Gravity Kills
stuff, it's funny, you know,
console,

and all my outboard gear,

samplers, and synthesizers,
and, you know, my Pro Tools rig,
and I would take it with me.

Like if we went to go mix
down,

I needed to stick it on a
truck and drive the whole
studio out.

I needed to hit the play button,
and we needed to play everything
off of the keyboards,

trigger everything MIDI-wise,
and then record it on the
12-inch tape.

And now, literally that entire
studio is on my laptop.

When we first started
recording, we were recording
on 4-track cassettes.

Uh, when Pro Tools
really came online,

when the people started
legitimately using it on major
label records, uh,

it changed for us, 'cause it
allowed us to actually get
a record done quicker.

[Bill] When I started all the
recording equipment
was custom-built.

It was an 8-input, 2-bus,
4-track console.

So each it was custom made
by Bob Bushnell, uh,

using API components

back when all the consoles
were handmade.

There was no such thing as an
off-the-shelf mixing console.

You would hire a company, uh,
to build the console for you.

History-wise, one used to be
able to buy a 2-inch 24-track
in the '70s

and a simple automated console
that was tape automated,

and, uh, say about $120,000,
$140,000 in equipment
not the studio,

and charge about 120 an hour.

Now, we have much more invested
than that and we can't charge
120 an hour.

So we have to be pretty clever.

In the '90s
when software started getting
easy and available,

and eventually by the end of the
'90s started getting cheap, uh,
everything changed drastically.

Because then, uh,
all of the all of our clients
had their own software,

and they had their own studios,

even if it was just in a broom
closet in their production
house, in their office.

Um, agencies that previously
had shied away from setting up
a studio,

'cause it was quarter million
dollars to set up a studio,
now they're saying,

"Really? So we can go out and
spend like 10 grand,

and have a decent enough room
where we can do all of our demos
for our clients in house?"

Uh, that just gutted the
business.

The availability
of the software,
how inexpensive it was,

it just gutted the business.

Having, you know, the software
the software that you can
actually put it down,

get it down, and get it the way
you sound, the way you want it
to sound,

and the way you like it,
and then that could be
your album.

Software is getting cheaper
and people are expecting to pay
low prices for software.

So the days of spending, you
know, hundreds of dollars for
individual pieces of software,

it really doesn't exist anymore.

Now, I think as the industry's
changed to the extent

that everybody has a little
recording device,

it's not as good of an idea to
spend huge amounts of money.

We have to figure out how to
deliver, uh, that extra quality
and still be reasonably priced.

Quality of audio is has always
been driven by the technology,

right back to the point where
drummers played very quietly,

because there was no
amplification.

And then all of a sudden,
you got electric guitars
and drummers played louder.

So now, the art form
has always been led by
technology.

You know, multi-track recording
led to the Beach Boys
and multi-layered harmonies.

Studio design led to the
Bee Gees doing "Jive Talkin'"
and those tight records.

[Bill] From roughly '75
to mid-'80s,

it was really idealized
in a lot of people's minds.

And those of us who were going
through it, didn't understand
that this would be the case.

it's like when I was
in high school, a friend of mine
had a '68 Camaro.

I mean, you know, who knew?
It was just a car.

But now, people look back
on the whole patina of the
business in those days

and attribute
a lot of it to the equipment.

Partly, it was, because we were
always fighting the equipment,

but it was a teamwork effort
with the musicians, and the
engineers, and the designers,

and the business people trying
to recreate the moment
as best we possibly could.

Nowadays, people just create
moments, uh, from scratch.

This is not necessarily bad,
but it's a different
kind of thing.

[Steve Lillywhite] I didn't
enter music to become a typist.

That's so much of being a
producer now is being a typist,

but you must always
look behind you.

You can only learn
from the past.

You can't learn from the future
because you don't know it yet.

This has been this perfect
marriage of like lowering
budgets,

but more efficient recording
techniques and technology.

[Bill] When you see an ad
for a digital audio workstation,

it's generally implying that you
don't need anybody,

you just need our box,
and you can cut the hits.

The challenge of keeping things
current is difficult, too,

because the time
you get to the point that

you barely pay something off you
gotta buy something new and, uh,

the rate of change
is short in this industry.

[Steve] You know, the technology
industry, which is what the
music business is now,

it's technology industry,
you know, it's moving fast.

Some people embrace that and
some people are a little
bit hesitant to embrace it.

Now, we are on the very
technological side of this
industry.

You know, we're virtualizing
basically the whole entire
recording studio.

Some people love that,
other people aren't quite used
to it yet.

The change that's most affected
me as a record producer,

for sure, is going from analog
to digital and I love that
change.

What I really love about it is
it enables me to do my day's
work quicker.

The tools that we use are
to make it as inexpensive
and as fast as possible,

the highest quality
with the fastest speed.

[Bill] The middle-class studio
is the place that's most
endangered today,

because of the pressure
from both sides.

The latest, and greatest,
and most amazing technology
is prohibitively expensive,

yet entry-level technology
is almost free.

People are gonna have big
budgets and they go
to the big studio

that still has that technology
and equipment or they'll just do
it themselves

or have their nephew do it.

[Gary] They call their bedroom
a recording studio and, uh,
I can't compete with them,

because they're only charging
$15, $20 an hour.

[Jason] It's just plug something
into a computer and I'm
a recording engineer now.

And it's not.

You're a recordist, you're
someone that is just recording.

[Michael] People wanna have this
conversation about technology
and sound,

which is a good conversation,
but the sort of I think
the other conversation

is how a lot of younger record
makers today go about
making records.

And it's not necessarily
in an informed
or an organized fashion.

No, they're trying to make it
up, uh, figure it out
as to do it.

And I think that's a problem.

What I'd love to see
is people treat all audio

the way it should be treated
instead of an afterthought.

The amount of tracks that come
in that are distorted,
that are labeled improperly,

that have bad editing done
that, you know,
that are just out of tune.

Sing it again.

We have a lot of people
coming up into this business

who have never listened to music
other than, uh,
mp3s through ear buds.

And if that's all that somebody
has ever experienced, they don't
know how good music could sound.

They don't understand
the difference.

People who, uh, pay attention
to details make great
recordings on anything

and that is so much
more important than
the technology itself.

But that being said,
the technology has such
incredible potential.

We live in a good
enough society.

Stuff that is recorded
in not in a studio
is often good enough.

When it got to people just
listening to music on the stereo
speakers on their laptop

or just carrying around their
phones,

you might as well have just gone
back to the AM transistor radio
back in the '60s.

When I think of older people
and their connection to music,

it was the experience of
listening to it and it could be
a very enveloping experience.

You know, there was a higher
preponderance of good sounding
systems, um, then there is now.

I think it's interesting that
with all the progress and all
the technology that we have,

most people are listening on
worse systems than they were
thirty, forty years ago.

You don't hear horrible
audio anymore.

The problem is you don't often
hear great audio anymore.

The average is probably better
than it used to be.

[Steve] I used to hate vinyl.

For me, vinyl was the weak
link in the whole process.

Ss would tear something
terrible on vinyl.

So when CDs came in, I thought
this was the weak link fixed.

But it's the mentality of
the people making the music
that is changing.

You know, when you look at music
rather than listen to music,
it's going to be different.

I loved all aspects
of the production,

but I was particularly drawn
to the reproduction of a moment.

I had watched records being made
where the performance happens,

and the tape machine is there,
and the tape machine is your
witness to the performance.

And you play it back, and that
performance, that moment lives.

Because there's something
really great about the first
time a song comes together,

when it all gels
and everything connects,

and, you know, those
moments when that does happen,

if you are lucky enough
to capture that to tape,
it's really great.

There's not much I like
more given enough time

And the right kind of gear
of getting a lot of it
on the floor

and making the band sound
good on the floor, and doing
a big tracking project.

It's the love of creating,

whether it be spontaneously,
in a live situation,

which is unparalleled.

What you experience on stage
in front of people,
you're a lightning rod,

and you're just receiving,
and it's the music
is flowing through you.

In the studio,
when you're creating something,

and there are those moments
when you're so in it,

and that happens,
it's the same lightning rod.

And then you sit back
and you look at what
you've created. That's magic.

I think you've got like two
things going and ultimately
it's best if they come to a peak

and if you can record it
at the peak.

You still have the passion
and you have performed it
enough times

to where you're nailing it.

The best records are gonna be
done when you don't realize
you're making them.

[rock music playing]

Artists, when they're thinking
about the recording, sometimes
take their eye off their art.

You don't have a song,
you don't have shit.

So you couldn't just show up
with a room full of cats,

you know, on someone's dime

and wing some shit
that you were gonna compose
on the fly in the studio.

Whereas, unfortunately, today
that's exactly what happens.

People come to me and say,
"Hey, can you mix this record
and make it sound like that?"

No, I can't.
I can mix the record,
it's gonna sound great,

but the only way it can sound
like that is if we get that
artist in that studio,

and those songs,
and all of that stuff,
and the time of day we record

like all those things make that
record sound the way
that it sounds.

In the old days, hit records
a lot of times used to align
with well-made records.

[Carl] It really just comes
down to patience.

Making sure
it's right from square one.

You know, I tell a lot of
the guys that I work with,

especially assistants,
something like that.

Like "We don't put our name
on it till the quality
is in there."

And that's what
we have to live by.

[Danny] Performance is way more
important than sound quality.

[Matt Sawicki] I like hearing
emotion come out of something.

[Carl] I can tune you,
I can time you, I can make you
sound like Katy Perry,

I can do all of those things,
but I can't give emotion.

And that's the one thing
that artists still need to be
able to find.

You know, it's the music
business, I wanna be
entertained.

[Steve] Most important part
about making a record
absolutely is, uh,

not the bass drum sound,
it's nothing like that.

It's making the song speak
to you, and by definition,
to make a song speak to someone,

it is through the vocal.

Just 'cause we have the tools
to fix, to edit, to tune,
to manipulate,

you know,
isn't it great just to sing?

Listen to those
old Motown Records,
listen to Aretha Franklin,

listen to some of those great
Atlantic Records
that Tommy Dowd recorded,

and I think we're losing
that in our musicality.

People don't play very well,
because they don't have to.

Somebody will play the drums
pretty shitty

and then they'll just expect
I'm gonna cut it together
and make it better.

Or, uh, "Oh, cool,
I played this 4-bar section,
uh, played it really well,

I'm gonna quantize that
and then I'm just gonna loop it
everywhere."

Okay, well. I mean that is a way
to make records,

but that's not I mean
it's a way to make records.

The work is not as satisfying
these days

to sit in front of your computer
by yourself and fix music.

[Doug] Copying and pasting
for all the downsides of it,

it saves people a lot of money
or tuning their vocal
but it's kind of like

Close enough. Let's just.

Right, moving on.
Moving on, moving on.

Now, that hasn't helped
live performances at all.

People go to shows all the time.

And they come back, I'm like,
"How were they?"

and they're like, "They had
no business being on stage."
Like, "It was really terrible."

Like, "It was bad.
These guys cannot play."

And you listen to the record
and you're like and it's like,

"I know", 'cause
there's a lot of trickery.

More and more people are
afraid of committing to things,
because they don't have to.

When I started out,
you wanted this guitar tone,

that's the guitar tone
you were gonna end up with
at the end of the day.

Now, people will record the
direct signal from the guitar,

and they'll put an amplifier
plug-in on it,

and they may change it as
they're listening throughout

or they may just send me
the DI'd guitars.

Recorded this great bass
player once, T-Bone Wolk.

Played Saturday Night Live
for years, he played with
Hall & Oates.

Plays the first verse in the
chorus and he stops, he goes,

"Okay, fly it to the second
and third." Bullshit.

I go, "You're T-Bone Wolk."

Like, "You don't get it, you're
like the greatest bass player
I've ever met in my life.

Can't you just play it?
'Cause I know you're gonna play
something cool."

"Yeah, alright, Carl."
Punch in and record,
and he just kills it.

And it that's the stuff
that I miss.

I miss the musicality
throughout a song.

There's always been boy bands,
there's always been pop stars,

you know, manufactured music,
and that's not gonna change.

The difference is, is now
you don't have any filters.

You know, well, before when
I was a kid, record companies
were filters.

They separated
the wheat, you know,
and it's not nearly as, uh,

as easy as it used to be
I think.

But we used to have to save up
money, go out, and buy records,

and listen to 'em over and over
until we were absolutely sure
we didn't like it.

Whereas now,
it's first listen...

I mean
think of all the bands

that you if you listen
to one time

Would you have ever listened
to Bob Dylan more than once
if you only, you know,

if it if you didn't pay
for it?

The devaluation of the product
that we create

has sort of affected
all aspects of the business.

People just don't see
the effort and the expense

that goes into creating
these pieces of art.

One thing I learned
over the years,

recording so many
different people,
is how talented people are.

[Richard] So once you get
to a certain level,

it's this magnetic force
that draws people together

and that's why it's a small
incestuous business.

[Danny]
The players are so damn good.

I watched an 18-year-old
drummer clip just yesterday
that blew my mind.

And the way that that kid was
playing wasn't even taught

or believed to be possible
when I was growing up.

Kids are learning how to play.

Now, learning how to play
something interesting that
someone wants to listen to

not just once but a couple of
times, that's the challenge.

"If I sound like Beyoncé,
if I sound like Justin Bieber,

am I really as good
as they are?"

And be honest with yourself.
Compare your music
with theirs and go,

"No, it's not good enough.
I'm gonna keep working until I
get something that is as good."

Over the past couple of
years, it's just like, uh,
things have slowed down,

and slowed down,
and slowed down.

[Steve] Well, first of all,
most of them, uh,
have really closed down,

but the others that are still
around, they're struggling.

Has been tricky for sure,
because right when we opened up
the studio was in 2006.

And if we remember,
back then nobody had any money
to do anything.

And you just don't see
the people like we used to see
and activity going on.

I mean we had three
control rooms and five studios,

and days when they were
all busy, and people
coming and going.

[Gary] New York, you know,
rent, insurance, all of that,
through the roof.

The building that we bought,
I wanna say we bought it
for $240,000

and to buy a similar building
now would be an investment
of well over a million dollars.

Big studios close
because they're worth more
as a home

than they are as a studio
or something like that.

The land value is worth
a it could be a Starbucks
or something.

[Gary]
Trying to sustain a large space
uh, with expensive equipment

uh, is just not realistic.

I don't think New York
really has a recording studio
culture anymore,

because of the
cost of real estate.

And in London other
than Abbey Road
and a couple of other places,

there really isn't anything.

A number of large studios
have closed, because there is
just less work in large studios.

Can you even imagine in this day
and age if somebody just wants
to do a song demo,

of them coming into a studio,
and paying a big studio
to do that?

People would not
do that anymore.

That, uh... They have
software at home.

[Steve] So many of the studios
that I even worked at as a kid

or interned at,
they're all gone.

The business has to change
just like any business would
when technology strikes.

So now, it's gotta be more about
the experience, uh, the service,
the atmosphere, the vibe,

getting away and coming
to this creative place,

that's really what a commercial
studio has to sell
themselves on.

Budgets have been slashed,
so we have to adjust our prices.

Man, when I started off,
I remember what the studio rate
at Ardent,

Studio A was 1,850 a day,
plus engineer, plus tape.

Nobody batted an eye.

Because the economy was
really in the tank, studio rates
just kind of evened out.

Everybody's got their rates down
as low as they dare go
to be competitive.

It does feel like at times
there's a little bit of a race
to the bottom in terms of rates.

Up to a certain level bands
weren't going to studios.

Record labels would sign
a group or an act or something
like that and they would say,

"We're not sending you anywhere.
You're from Rochester.

Like what's the best studio in
Rochester? Okay, we'll
bring the producer to you.

Just... You know, we don't have
to pay for gas, food, lodging."

[calm music playing]

There are so many studios now
where guys are charging what?
50, 60 bucks an hour.

That's for the studio, for the
personnel, for everything, you
get 60 bucks an hour, right?

That's what studios were
getting in 1985.
So in 30 years

[scoffs]

In 30 years, studios
and engineers are getting paid
exactly the same amount

that they were getting paid
in 1985.

Okay, you could say,
"Well, things are cheaper now,
so, you know."

Well, I'm sorry but, uh,
real estate isn't cheaper,

hiring a contractor
is not cheaper.

Things are cheaper in some ways,
but microphones
still cost money,

mic pres still costs a lot of
money, compressors still cost
a lot of money,

room build-outs
still cost a lot of money.

That does not change one salient
fact and that is the person
who's recording your album

is making today exactly
the same amount of money
that I made in 1985.

I don't know
that it's just this industry.

I mean it seems to me that this
is a problem across the board.

If you really look at wages
for the Americans,

they have stagnated
over the past 30 years.

Yet things are two to three
times more expensive.

People, uh, are insured,
yet they can't pay their bills.

The music business
is just a little microcosm

of the fucked-upness of the
whole fucking system right now.

And until we fix all of that,

but in particular
in the music industry,

people are gonna have
a very tough time making
a living in this business

and very few people are gonna
find a path to retirement.

The worst times were
hand-to-mouth, you know,
really dealing with, uh,

trends that you, uh,
every small business knows.

A big hurdle is just trying
not to worry about where
money's gonna come from

and where the next session's
coming from, and I think the
only way of doing that is,

you know, you get judged by your
last project that you do, um,

and so concentrating on that
what you're doing that day
and doing it really well.

It's a matter of adapting
to the smaller market.

So that's big.

And being able to come up
with new ideas to shift parts
of the business to, uh,

continue to, you know,
grow or build or survive.

These days we have to
compete with a lot more than
people had to compete

with when they're in the '60s
and '70s, because people have
the internet and their phone.

They can be watching a movie,
they can be playing a game,

they can communicate with anyone
anywhere in the world
or they can listen to music.

Whereas it in past times,
you know,
there were three TV channels,

they went off the air
at ten o'clock, there weren't
that many things to do, right?

And so listening to records
is something

that people would engage
in a more focused way.

The industry is depressed.
It's transitioning.

It's just transitioning
from old model to the new model.

There used to be a business to
it. You know, it was a business.

And now, it's like a bunch
of people make music,

and they put
it up on the internet for free,

people listen to it for free,
and somehow, somewhere somebody
makes some money.

Well, I'm not sure anymore
what the music industry is.

The music industry Is kind of
this many-headed beast that goes
in a lot of different directions

at the same time and on
a regular basis eats itself.

[Marc] It's hard enough to get
anybody to wanna sign any band

and it has been for obviously
eons and eons,

but of course downsizing,
you know, now just exacerbates
that problem.

Right when Too Much Stereo came
out we had redone our deal
with Virgin Records

and we kinda started seeing a
bunch of people at the record
label just getting fired.

Almost anyone
can make a record

and most importantly now,
can get it, "out there".

[Vance]
You can record a record
on your laptop in your bedroom.

You can put it out
on iTunes yourself.

Now, that is power to be able to
publish, self-publish,

to record yourself, do yourself,

and publish yourself,
and put it out there.
That is serious power.

The problem with it is not
everybody should do that.

Anything is available
for us to hear.

I mean every song, whether
it's great to you or horrible
to you, it's right in your face.

So the "music industry"
is flooded with shit,

with a lot of bad music,
and nobody is curating it.

And because everybody can record
at home, in the computer,

nobody wants to pay
to come to a place like this.

Not nobody, but not everybody.

You're no longer bound
by coming up with that
big chunk of money

to get a thousand CDs pressed.

You know, you don't have
to do that anymore.

You know, in 2006,
streaming came out and, uh,
Spotify was on the market,

and then there was Pandora
came out,

and YouTube was becoming
more and more of a place where
people were putting up music,

and all of a sudden sales
plummeted, and they continued
to plummet.

And they've been falling
continually for the past ten
years.

Our business is affected
by changes in the overall studio
environment,

in, you know, the worldwide
studio environment,

which has been affected
by changes in the distribution
of music.

Now, music distribution being
primarily electronic now,

there is much less emphasis on
physical manufactured goods,

much less emphasis on retail
sales, much less money in the
recording business generally.

So a lot of
bigger recording studios

that depended on major label
product being their bread
and butter, um,

a lot of those studios have gone
under, because the profit
has kinda fallen out of that.

[Steve Ewing] We started seeing
that radio was not actually
selling records anymore.

iTunes was really bumpin'.

I think the music business
imploded because people
didn't want to foresee

what was gonna happen with how
technology was going to change
the music business.

You know, as soon as people,

you know, started downloading
pirated music
in the early 2000s,

that's when, you know,
a light bulb should come on
in the music business and go,

"Okay, we have to change
our business model now."

If we think we are gonna compete
with free by selling people
$15 CDs,

you know, we better
get our heads checked.

So in 1976, Congress
reformed all of the copyright
code called "Title 17"

and in it they put provisions
for how much radio had to pay
songwriters

for the songs
that they spin.

We have no such statutory rate
for songwriters to be paid
off streaming.

I got a royalty check the other
day, Melissa Etheridge record,
she did a soul record,

it's a really great record, it's
on Concord, I got mixed points
on it, I made one penny.

One penny.
On that record.

So, you know,
I mean what's the point?

[Danny] Bottom line is
it's literally the same
kind of money.

It's 1980 dollars, it's 1985
dollars, it's the same money.

So I have no expectations
of making any money.

You know, there's a lot of
people out there that,

you know, illegally download our
record, which I can't fight it.

[laughs]
So might as well
just accept it.

And if they have it
and they like it, great.

Those people often will buy
a shirt or something
and realistically nowadays too,

especially when dealing
with labels,

we make more money off
of selling a T-shirt to somebody
at a show

than we do selling
a 12-inch record to them, so...

I don't think we'll ever get
back to a place where you can
make Nirvana money.

I think today's Billy Corgan
doesn't get to buy a Jaguar,

but I kind of think
that that's cooler, too.

Nobody's buying music.

Sales are how
we reap the reward.

Uh, although, these days sales,
uh, don't exist.

The music has become free.

That's not right,
but it's become that way.

You certainly don't get it
from the streaming services
that are out there, at all.

I mean it's pennies and it's
not, you know, it's just not
worth talking about that.

I mean even you're Taylor Swift
and you're not really making
much money from streaming.

[Richard]
My income has not waned.

I mean I'm not I'm still, you
know, increasing every year.

Uh, but I think I've just been
very fortunate,

but a lot of my friends, it's a
very different story, you know.

Where we used to put out records
and then tour to support
those records,

now it's sort of the reverse.

Now, we put out records
to support tours.

The applecart is flipped
around backwards.

Uh, my friends who do indie
records and are out on the road,

they are only making money
playing live and selling vinyl.

Go figure.

I hate using the term
"trickle-down".

But, you know, like if more
people were buying records,

you know, more engineers
and producers could stay afloat,

and, uh,
and be able to do it well.

I don't think the consumer
gives a shit.

I think the consumer is like,
"Well, music has always been
free for me."

Even if you're my age, music's
always been free to some degree,

because you could listen
to the radio.

But the difference is radio
is mandated to pay
and streaming sites are not.

They think of it as a product
that's replaceable like with
any other product.

That concerns me

because any art form
is so important to a culture.

It's the heart of the culture.

It concerns me
that there's no heart.

[Steve] Society as a whole,
we're kind of underfunding
our creative people.

It's happened in journalism,
it's happening everywhere,
nobody cares about content.

If the general economy has any
say in the creative economies,

then there are some very rich
people and the rest of us
are hosed.

Well, of course, it sucks.

I mean it's just a different
time and those days are gone,
you know.

And it's just different.

Has it affected me?
Yes. I'm making less money
for the same amount of work.

But I'm doing something I love.

It was told to me a long time
ago if you do something
you love,

you never work a day
in your life.

My account has changed,
my bank, but the love
of what I do hasn't.

I always wanted to own
a recording studio and for
my sins, they gave me one.

The definition of a recording
studio has changed so much
over the years.

I used to believe in the
traditional model, because
that's what I grew up in.

That it was a fancy place
with beautiful wood walls,
and floors,

and, you know,
a dead part, and a live part,

and a big fancy console,
and everything else.

I still love that definition,
but I have come to realize
in recent years

that a recording studio can be
anywhere where talented people
get together and create.

[Brian] What a recording studio
is isn't so much defined
by the space

that you're in but what you're
doing in the space.

[Richard] Most of the sessions
I do now, like nine out of ten,

I'm doing at my house,
in my studio.

There's pros and cons.

I mean the great thing about
the way the industry is now

is that we're seeing a lot of
incredible talent develop
in bedrooms

as people become their own
producers and engineers
out of necessity,

and sometimes it's amazing.

You know, sometimes it's
phenomenal, because it's really
pure and it's unadulterated.

It's unaffected by labels
or by "producers" or, you know,

people telling them how things
should be.

[Steve] These guys are doing it
from bedrooms, from basements,
from living rooms.

I mean they're making
incredible-sounding music
with great songs

and they're doing it without,
you know, being elite
or rich or having,

you know, to book out some big
studio for, you know,
25 grand a week.

[Andy] Honestly, most of the
time when I've gone to something
that is like a pro studio,

it's been there's at
least a little bit of like
posturing to it, you know.

On my end as a performer
like a little bit more nervous
or, you know.

Um, so there is probably some
truth in just more casual
the atmosphere,

uh, the better for comfort
level, performing,
and stuff like that.

[Sunyatta] Playing in studios
was always a little bit
intimidating,

typically the engineer is a very
accomplished musician,

and they're around really
accomplished musicians all day,

and people put their part down,
and then I'm like, "Ooh".

You know, get real like just,
uh, stage fright basically,
um, in the studio.

The first guitar solo
I ever recorded,
I did like over 70 takes.

And I was like near tears,
and just losing my mind,

and like that performance
is one of the worst things
I've ever done.

It's like let it be sort of
off the cuff, let it be casual,
you know.

We did home recordings too
and I didn't have
any of that fear

and the process was just a lot
smoother just because of
the sort of stage fright

that I used to get
in that situation.

It's strange that I found
like I'm just more comfortable

with it being in my extra
bedroom, you know.

I'm not a fan of tan walls,
and oak trim,
and the glass right there,

and dual speakers with wooden
horns, and "this is a console".

You know, who gives a shit
what kind of microphone it is

if the person isn't inspired to
do their thing in front of it.

I've always been fascinated
by the control of having
a home studio.

And by control I mean control
over how much you're spending,

control over the
availability of time,
control over your schedule,

and ultimately control
frequently over, uh, you know,
just the musical workflow,

how does this work and not
feeling bad about walking away
from the room if you need to.

You know, and saying...
It's not happening right now.

Now, that's the other
disadvantage of mixing in
a studio is I got to go there,

I can't mix in my pajamas unless
I have no shame, the client
is paying for that room,

so I can't just say after six
hours, "Uh, I'm not feeling like
mixing today."

Here, I can do that. Whatever.

Uh, you know, I'm a little tired
today, I don't feel like mixing.

If I blow off a day it's because
I need to blow off the day,
I need the space,

I need to reset my head, I need
to get away from it, whatever.

There is some kind of urgency
to it in comparison
to a home studio

where you can just be like,
"Uh, I'm gonna go make a pizza

and I'll come back in a half an
hour," you know.

But again, there was so much
urgency when I had the space

that I never could like
have fun doing it.

Shame Club recorded an album
uh, at a place called
Mousetrap.

The Mousetrap in Norman,
Oklahoma, with Carl Amburn.

Well, he had like a full studio
built into this, uh, barn
in like his mom's backyard.

So that was really,
really chill.

We would just like
sleep in the barn.

He had like on cots or
whatever, and he had AC
in the in the sound room,

so like there wasn't a bathroom
out there, there was just like
a piss tree.

Like if you had to take a shit,
you would have to go
into the house

and walk past his mom,
you know, and be like, "Hi".

I mean why to why I have
to why be pigeonholed
into something?

I mean I think being open
to different spaces

sometimes I record vocals
in my bedroom, at my house.

And I love the fact that I can
do that, 'cause financially

and economically,
it saves me money,

to know that I can be able to do
that or I edit vocals
on GarageBand,

because I don't have the time
right now to learn Pro Tools.

I write lyrics
in fits and starts,
and it's really, really nice.

Once I get that specific,
uh, lightning strike to just go
in and start recording vocals.

And spreading those songs
apart, um, and getting some
arrangement going.

And if we had to book
a studio, at those super,

you know, right at that moment,
um, that would be,
you know, an obstacle.

You know,
there's a Rundgren album cover

where there's a picture
of him and a mic is taped
to like a broom

up against the back of a chair,
and it's his living room, and
he's at home making a recording,

and I've always been really,
really intrigued by that.

Any place that is comfortable
and makes good music
is a studio to me.

It can be cheap, and shitty,
and still have personality,

and like that's the important
thing that I wanna convey.

If it's just you and your
laptop, and, you know, a couple
of hundred bucks for the gear,

you can have
your creative outlet.

If you wanna create art,
why should you have
a barrier of having to,

you know, be rich or be elite
just so that you can create
your art?

I think it's a fantastic thing
that everyone can walk
into a music shop,

and spend a few hundred bucks,
and get a recording interface,
and spend 14.99,

and get a bunch of great
processing plugins
that can reproduce

what a big commercial studio
can do.

Because it used to be that
you couldn't you had to have
a bunch of money

or you had to be pre-approved
from someone else

in order to get access to ever
even recording stuff.

Now, every any kid can just do
that on their phone

or, you know,
that's just amazing to me.

And some people will see that as
a negative thing and I disagree.

I think that's a positive thing.

There's no reason, you know,
nobody else has to press play,

you know, but everyone should
be able to at least...

-Hit record.
-Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

[calm music plays]

[Kenny] Home recording
has definitely picked up,

but I don't think
that it renders the recording
studio obsolete by any means.

The thing you that one might
think is, "Well, when you have
a professional recording studio

that you're gonna be worried
about people recording at home,

and the home recording
revolution, and the laptop
revolution,"

and, uh, I was aware
of that when we started
my studio 1980.

I think I'm probably on the
sixth or seventh backlash

from recording people
going record at home,

realize it's harder than
they think, or realize
they really love it,

and then they wanna get
into a studio, and do it.

What I've found is that the home
recording revolution really has
just given me better educated,

more experienced clients.

[Matt Ross-Spang] If you do
a home studio and you record
a little bit,

you realize why you need
to go to a studio.

I think that's for a while.

A few years ago, we had a big
boom in home recording and
studios were really suffering,

but I think people now
are realizing it doesn't sound
as good,

you need to collaborate with
people, you need to have experts

and professionals work with you
if you wanna have
a bigger sound.

[Jeff] There's obviously
the studio and the acoustic
design of a room

that gives it
its own personality,

but more important
than anything are the people
that work there.

[Matt Ross-Spang] What you don't
have is the guy who's been
recording for 30 years,

who knows how to get interesting
sounds and push you in ways

that you need to be pushed
to do stuff.

I mean one of the roles
of an engineer is to make the
technological process disappear,

so that the musicians
and producer can just get
at the music

and be as creative as possible,
and there's not time wasted
trying to figure out

how to get a sound or how
to make the computer
do what you want it to do.

That's to me why people come
to studios to work
with certain people.

In one sense, I think there has
been kind of a resurgence
of appreciation for

what is a traditional
type of production ethic.

You really have to be diverse
to be able to be able to
make it.

Had to adapt
over the years and, uh,

or obviously we couldn't have
stayed in business
first two years.

To become kind of like this
eight-armed octopus.

[David] Our longevity is partly
because we also did related
things that also were, uh,

contributed to income here.

We do rock, but we also
do hip-hop, but also
we're a post house.

Programming, uh, coding at the
earliest website times, yeah.

But then we're also a music
house, we've done custom music.

It's a recording studio which is
about 7000 square feet
of our 12,000.

Um, we have the vinyl
mastering suite.

We've expanded that into
digital mastering as well.

We do the next step
in vinyl production,
which is electroplating,

and then we have a company
called Mara Machines, which
restores MCI tape machines.

And we weren't afraid to tackle
really things a little beyond

what the scope
of just recording.

[Steve] You know, technology
disrupts a lot of industries and
you just have to continue on,

there's nothing you can do
about it.

So I mean do I see it as a
bad thing that now a lot more
people have access to,

you know, low-priced tools
to create art?

No, I don't see it
as a bad thing.

Do I want guys who've spent
their careers running
commercial studios to fail?

I don't want that either.

[Marc] The only way for those
big rooms to sustain themselves

is just to really have
corporate clients,

and do film and TV stuff
or else they're
just gonna have to like,

you know, lose the memories
of what they used to make
and deal with it.

You have to have
a core clientele

and you have to serve that
clientele within their means.

And that's our challenge, you
know, to make the most of what
we've got, and look out,

and figure out how we can be
a value to people,

and generate the sort of income
that keeps us going.

[Jason] A successful place
is probably one that's
owner-occupied and owner-run.

Too many paychecks
bring the bills down.

You know, you can hope that you
get millionaires now and again,

but you cannot base a business
on the occasional occurrence
of millionaire clients.

And whatever, may be the
millionaire musicians go away,

but, okay,
I'm alright with that.

Let me make $30,000 a year
writing dumb songs.

Nobody sits down and listens
to a record anymore.

That just makes
a guy like me sad.

That doesn't mean it's right.

I miss that and I miss
the importance of creating
that experience for people,

but now other people
are creating other experiences,

and what I see as an exciting
thing is these, uh,

audio experiences that are being
created that I have never even
thought of yet,

and I see young people
who care a lot, and that
gives me great hope.

But I think the pendulum swings
and certainly being in business
this 30-plus years, um,

you see that pendulum swing
a lot.

In some ways,
it's kind of over already.

I think like the golden era,
it's kind of passed.

No reason of being scared
of that, you know.

It's just the change
has already happened.

Maybe it's just somebody else's
golden era right now.

The sonic communication
business is still very strong.

People are talking
about budgets going down.

I'm a very positive-looking guy.

I mean vinyl's selling
like crazy.

We have the internet now,
which means anyone can promote
their music and put it out,

so there's more ways
to get your music out there.

The options now
are incredible for people

and I think it's not
any different than it was
back in the day,

you just have to be
talented and you have to think
outside the box.

[David] It's in our court.
What can we do to continue
to be relevant?

In 35 years,
we've managed to remain
relevant.

[Chris] I think it's a great
time to be making music
in this industry.

Right now, I'm working on
a project from a band
from Singapore,

and they Hightail
me their tracks,

and I mix it
and send it back to them,
and that's awesome.

[Mark] I think it all has to
stem from a love of music,
and enjoyment of other people,

dedication to doing what we do.

I have a saying which is, uh,
"This stuff is way too
important to take seriously."

I'm not afraid by any of it,
I just enjoy it and, uh,

you know, any obstacles
can be gotten around.

Often when something kinda dries
up, it bubbles up someplace else

and you just have to be able to
adapt and, um, and take
advantage of that.

Yeah, of course, it's changed.

You don't earn as much money,
but for me it was never
about the money.

I honestly say that, you know,
if you make great art,
the money will happen.

Every artist has their own
unique ability to create.

I want everyone making art.
I think it's a beautiful thing.

I think, you know, what will be
amazing is if that more people
can get attracted to this art

and to the art of music
and music production that
normally wouldn't have.

That's the key to success
and the key to satisfying work.

Because eventually people
will be able to make money in
this industry, it's inevitable.

And it's a lot more fun, because
we don't have some A&R guy
breathing down our neck

and telling us it needs more
shaker or cowbell
or what have you.

[Danny] What I wanna do is
make records that family,
and friends,

and a handful of other people
like to listen to.

Anything we get back
from that, feels really good.

[Brian] The future of the music
business as it relates
to the idea of people

who make their living
creating music,

I think is bright.

I actually think that how
it's going right now,
it's pretty beautiful.

[Mark] There's a lot of promise.

I think this is probably
the best time there is to be
in the record business.

[Steve Higdon] There's a lot
more acceptance of a broad range
of cool stuff now.

People are affording great music
tools, they are making
great music.

Music definitely is something
that is capable of making every
single person on Earth react.

Music is so tied to emotion
and it's so personal.

It's all I know.

What makes your arm hair stand
up when something sends
a shiver down your spine?

[Matt Ross-Spang]
Transcends language,
it transcends age,

it transcends sex,
race, everything.

It just, you know, uh,
it's just amazing.

[Mark] I really enjoy tracking
records with musicians.

I love the creativity of that,
and discovering sounds,

and taking a song, an idea,
a vision, a dream, and making it
perceptible to other people.

We're fixing it in some way
that it will, um, that it can
travel through space and time,

and touch other people,
and make something
that will hopefully outlast us,

and maybe continue to change
the world in the future.

Making and creating
great things, that's what it is,
that's what it's about for me.

And that satisfies me.

And if I can make money
doing that, then great.

I will continue to do that
until I'm dead.

[rock music playing]