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BEN: The critical systems that keep society running
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are connected.
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These systems are
more and more connected
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to the internet quite openly.
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They're just kind of open game.
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But it's exposing them to a massive security risk.
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If you can access it remotely,
so can everybody else.
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Cyber attacks are on the rise.
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You don't think this is just
needless fear-mongering, do you?
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I wish it was.
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Then I could sleep a lot better.
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Malware has infected critical infrastructure everywhere.
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We've gotta begin to think
about what are the rules of war
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if, God forbid, you
wind up with a cyberwar.
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Will cyber attacks trigger an all-out war?
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♪
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The industrialized world runs on an infrastructure
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that we take for granted.
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When things are running well,
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they're pretty easy to forget about.
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But critical infrastructure
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has always been a prime target in war.
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Destroying a power grid or water system can paralyze the enemy.
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And as more and more of that kind of infrastructure
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is connected to digital networks,
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experts are finding it's also vulnerable to cyber attacks.
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In the control system world, if
something fails, it's obvious.
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The lights go out,
a pipe breaks.
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What you don't know is:
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did cyber play a role
in what happened?
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Joe Weiss has been an industrial control systems engineer
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for almost 40 years.
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Joe took me to a power station in California.
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That state's power grid was allegedly hacked by China
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in the early 2000s.
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ICS stands for
Industrial Control Systems.
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It's essentially
a ubiquitous term
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that we're using to
cover this range of things
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that monitor or control
physical processes.
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So like what you see over here,
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all of this stuff is controlling
the electric system.
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So someone from China could
effectively gain access
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to a network that's controlling
something in California?
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Yes.
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I don't think there's any
question that there are
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nation states that are targeting
critical infrastructure.
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Electric, water,
pipelines, you name it.
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We've already had, many
years ago, documented
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where China did try to meddle
with things here, like this.
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What did they do?
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They hacked into what's called
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the California
Independent System Operator,
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which is in Folsom, California.
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Which is what, on an overall
basis, controls this.
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And if they had, what are the
sorts of things we could see?
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'Cause that's obviously
an attack, right?
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That was obviously
an attack, correct.
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And what would've been
a fallout if they...
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Again, depending on
what they would've done,
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they could've affected,
you know, power
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to hundreds of
thousands of customers.
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Shut down California, one of
the most important states?
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Well, they could've certainly
played havoc with the grid.
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This attack is just one case.
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The real turning point was in 2009.
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It was a sophisticated computer virus called Stuxnet,
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and it infiltrated and destroyed nuclear centrifuges
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at a controversial uranium enrichment plant in Iran.
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Observers agree the attack was likely
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a joint US/Israeli operation.
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The critical infrastructure war was on.
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But I wanna know how hackers get inside critical infrastructure
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in the first place.
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Nice to meet you.
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- Ben.
- A pleasure.
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Meredith Patterson is an expert in protocols,
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the instructions machines use to communicate with each other.
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A control system is just
a system that takes some
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reference value and then
monitors a centrifuge
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or a turbine or a fan,
any kind of device
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that has some property
that can be measured.
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Temperature, speed,
direction, whatever.
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Like a power plant, or
a nuclear power plant,
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or critical infrastructure.
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Yeah, a dam, anything like that.
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And are these things secure?
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Well...
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one of the problems with
industrial control systems is
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that the protocols that are used
in them are extremely complex.
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So if you have systems from
different vendors that are using
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different implementations,
you can sometimes end up with
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crosstalk essentially,
because they're speaking
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different dialects
of the same protocol,
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and one ends up introducing
a mistake into the other.
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So if I'm reading
this correctly,
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you're saying that at times
the software involved with
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some of the most critical
infrastructure we have,
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like nuclear power plants,
can break down?
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Can the code essentially...
like there's an exploit?
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There's a vulnerability?
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MEREDITH: That's
exactly what I'm saying.
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Vulnerabilities are
driven by the inputs
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that people send into systems.
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And so if an attacker has
any way to control or modify
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the input that is being
sent to a system,
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they could send it false inputs,
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they could send it
syntactically incorrect inputs.
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It is remarkably easy
to just mess with
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the temperature some place,
in a natural gas plant,
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and catch the entire
plant on fire.
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I mean...
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- Really?
- Oh yeah.
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Baytown near Houston just
frequently has problems
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where a refinery catches,
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and the entire river
goes up for about a day.
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And that's something
that could be done
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if someone got into the system?
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This is something that happens
by accident already, right?
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So if... if somebody
were to get into the system,
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then yes, you could totally
set the river on fire.
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That threat is real,
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and the highest levels of government know it.
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Michael Chertoff was the Secretary of Homeland Security
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under George W. Bush.
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He now runs a cybersecurity consulting firm.
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What's the biggest
threat to America's
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critical infrastructure?
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What's the thing that
scares you the most?
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Well, you know, if you're
talking about what would cause
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the greatest consequence, I
would say anything that affects
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transportation, energy or
finance, or healthcare
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would potentially have
a very, very big impact
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on the United States.
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But here's the dangerous thing.
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We're now moving into what they
call the Internet of Things,
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where everything is
gonna get, quote, "smart".
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So as we build out all these,
you know, widgets that have
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connectivity and wireless,
we've gotta think to ourselves
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what happens if somebody enters
using that wireless and begins
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to affect the actual physical
operation of the system?
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There's also a lot of debate
about what the laws of war
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would be if we did have
a cyber conflict.
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And again, that's not
about stealing information.
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That's literally about using
cyber tools to blow up something
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like a power plant,
or to kill people
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by causing an airliner to crash.
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And so we've got to begin
to think about how do we...
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what are the rules of
war if, God forbid,
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you wind up with a cyberwar.
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Critical infrastructure is clearly a target,
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and attacks against them aren't a pipe dream,
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they're actually happening.
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BEN: I go to meet someone who knows about
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hacking critical infrastructure and works to prevent it.
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Chris Kubecka is anindependent security consultant.
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She says she first got into hacking as a kid.
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What'd you hack into?
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The FBI and the
Department of Justice.
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And how old were you?
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- I was 10.
- What?!
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And I had no idea I was really
doing much of anything
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'cause it was really easy.
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Back in August of 2012,malware dubbed Shamoon infected
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the network of Saudi Arabia's national oil and gas company,
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Saudi Aramco.
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Kubecka was hired to assess the damage.
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Why don't you tell me
what Shamoon is.
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Shamoon was a piece of malware
that began to randomly wipe
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over 35,000 Windows-based
computers in Saudi Aramco.
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When it was discovered
what was going on,
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individuals inside Saudi
physically pulled plugs
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to keep it from getting further.
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And what was the damage?
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The damage was about
85% of their IT systems
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were knocked out, and
when I say IT systems,
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it wasn't just your
desktop computer.
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It was the servers they
connected to, payroll systems,
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databases, any sort of data that
held research and development,
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all the way up to the
voice of our IP phones.
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Did that target any...
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let's say critical
infrastructure, oil production?
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Yes.
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It appeared that the attack
was meant to target
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the production systems
to take them down.
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So it was actually a
critical infrastructure attack?
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Yes, absolutely, it
was targeting it, yes.
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Who did it?
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According to Saudi Aramco, they
think that the Iranians did it.
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And would you agree with that?
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It seemed like it was an
extremely political attack
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done in a way that
was extremely damaging
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to Saudi business culture.
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It seemed like either
it had to do with a group
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related to the Saudi Arab
Spring or Bahrainian Spring,
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which was going on
at the same time,
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or perhaps it was Iranian.
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Have critical infrastructure
attacks increased
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since Stuxnet and Shamoon?
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Yes, they have, absolutely.
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More and more people
are aware of them.
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So now curiosity is peaking.
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And if you went from
just writing code
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to writing code and
being able to move things...
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attacks are gonna get more
and more as curiosity peaks.
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And also, these systems
are more and more connected
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to the internet quite openly.
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They're just kind of open game.
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The Shamoon virus was probably
the most destructive attack
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that the private sector
has seen to date.
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After Shamoon, US Defense Secretary Leon Panetta
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sounded the alarm.
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The collective result
of these kinds of attacks
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could be a cyber Pearl Harbor.
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How would cyber attackers find their targets?
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I learned, in fact, that there's a search engine called Shodan
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dedicated to scanning devices connected to the internet.
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John Matherly is its architect.
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So what am I looking at here?
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Shodan is a search engine
that unlike Google,
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which just looks at the web,
Shodan looks at the internet,
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which can include much
more than just the web.
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All these device
are becoming connected,
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and Shodan finds them.
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It can be buildings,
water treatment facilities,
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factories, webcams, offices,
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everything that you
can possibly imagine.
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If it can have a computer
inside it, Shodan's found it.
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So this is a 3D globe
where the red dots represent
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publicly accessible
control systems.
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So these are control systems
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that are exposing
their raw protocols.
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There's no authentication
on any of these.
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You just connect, and
you have full access.
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BEN: America is
just a big red blob.
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That's not good.
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Most connected
country in the world.
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It's not that
surprising, I guess.
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Very, very connected.
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What was one thing you saw
where you said to yourself,
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like, "How the hell
did this get up online?"
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There are a lot of
things like that.
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(Laughing)
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A big one was one in France.
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It's the hydro electric dam,
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churning like a few
megawatts of power.
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It was pretty big.
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And actually, I can show it.
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And this one actually
had a web interface,
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which is unusual, that
showed a real-time view
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of how much power
was being generated.
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And it also had all sorts
of other stuff exposed.
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That's actually a common
theme with ICS devices.
253
00:12:13,833 --> 00:12:15,366
They will give you
serial numbers,
254
00:12:15,402 --> 00:12:17,035
they're gonna give you
firmware versions,
255
00:12:17,070 --> 00:12:20,171
because it was meant for
engineers to maintain remotely.
256
00:12:20,206 --> 00:12:21,973
And if you're a remote engineer,
257
00:12:22,008 --> 00:12:24,142
you wanna know what
you're working with.
258
00:12:24,177 --> 00:12:25,977
And then you look at
the history of it,
259
00:12:26,012 --> 00:12:28,046
and there's a
history of flooding.
260
00:12:28,081 --> 00:12:31,049
Like there are known
flooding instances of this dam.
261
00:12:31,084 --> 00:12:34,319
And it took 2 years
of poking and prodding
262
00:12:34,354 --> 00:12:36,387
for these guys to secure it.
263
00:12:36,423 --> 00:12:39,157
Do you think something this
vulnerable and this shitty
264
00:12:39,192 --> 00:12:41,326
is lying around
in the US somewhere?
265
00:12:41,361 --> 00:12:42,994
Most likely, yes.
266
00:12:43,029 --> 00:12:45,163
A lot of the guys operating
these things don't understand
267
00:12:45,198 --> 00:12:49,334
that if you can access it
remotely without logging in
268
00:12:49,369 --> 00:12:52,503
over the internet,
so can everybody else.
269
00:12:55,442 --> 00:12:57,742
Shodan proves that critical infrastructure is in danger
270
00:12:57,777 --> 00:13:00,912
all over the world, but who else has figured that out,
271
00:13:00,947 --> 00:13:02,680
and what are they doing with it?
272
00:13:08,621 --> 00:13:09,754
BEN: Everyone was telling me that
273
00:13:09,789 --> 00:13:11,556
critical infrastructure control systems
274
00:13:11,591 --> 00:13:14,125
were not only outdated, but ripe for an attack.
275
00:13:15,929 --> 00:13:17,962
If accessing them could be as simple as finding them
276
00:13:17,998 --> 00:13:20,431
on the internet, how hard could it be to trigger
277
00:13:20,467 --> 00:13:23,134
the nightmarish damage everyone was warning about?
278
00:13:24,738 --> 00:13:26,571
I went to meet Stuart McClure,
279
00:13:26,606 --> 00:13:29,607
the founder and owner of a security firm called Cylance.
280
00:13:31,911 --> 00:13:34,612
He shows me a device called a Programmable Logic Controller,
281
00:13:34,647 --> 00:13:36,714
or PLC.
282
00:13:36,750 --> 00:13:40,284
PLCs have been around since the 1960s, but in the digital age,
283
00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,587
they're the weak link for hackers to exploit.
284
00:13:44,758 --> 00:13:46,724
First off, why don't you
explain to me what a PLC is.
285
00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,494
Yeah, a PLC is a
Programmable Logic Controller.
286
00:13:49,529 --> 00:13:51,896
Basically it controls
the physical world
287
00:13:51,931 --> 00:13:54,165
by programming, or computers.
288
00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:55,666
So you typically
find these though
289
00:13:55,702 --> 00:13:57,101
in a lot of critical
infrastructure, right?
290
00:13:57,137 --> 00:13:58,569
Absolutely.
291
00:13:58,605 --> 00:14:01,072
Any kind of oil and gas or
industrial control systems.
292
00:14:01,107 --> 00:14:03,775
Anything that tries to
control, like I said,
293
00:14:03,810 --> 00:14:06,911
the physical world
or physical elements
294
00:14:06,946 --> 00:14:10,348
for power or oil and gas,
transportation, you name it,
295
00:14:10,383 --> 00:14:13,618
they all require the use of PLCs
in some form or fashion
296
00:14:13,653 --> 00:14:15,186
to make them work every day.
297
00:14:15,221 --> 00:14:18,423
As I understand it, PLCs are
quite buggy and easy to exploit,
298
00:14:18,458 --> 00:14:19,957
are they not?
299
00:14:19,993 --> 00:14:23,294
Well yeah, they're built on 30,
40 years of code that has
300
00:14:23,329 --> 00:14:26,464
really never been audited
for security, or very rarely.
301
00:14:26,499 --> 00:14:28,866
So they often have a lot of
vulnerabilities and exploits
302
00:14:28,902 --> 00:14:30,802
that have yet to be discovered.
303
00:14:30,837 --> 00:14:32,270
And of course,
hackers love that.
304
00:14:32,305 --> 00:14:33,838
So you know how to hack a PLC?
305
00:14:33,873 --> 00:14:34,839
Yes.
306
00:14:34,874 --> 00:14:36,007
And you're gonna show us?
307
00:14:36,042 --> 00:14:37,275
Yes, absolutely.
308
00:14:37,310 --> 00:14:38,976
Let's get to it,
let's try it out.
309
00:14:39,012 --> 00:14:41,512
So what this is is
a rig that we built
310
00:14:41,548 --> 00:14:44,715
to represent the physical world
out there that usually has
311
00:14:44,751 --> 00:14:46,818
very large versions
of these things.
312
00:14:46,853 --> 00:14:51,122
This PLC is hooked up to
this air pump and compressor,
313
00:14:51,157 --> 00:14:55,026
which is going to allow us
to over-pressurize a bottle
314
00:14:55,061 --> 00:14:56,794
and make it explode.
315
00:14:56,830 --> 00:14:58,029
So...
316
00:14:58,064 --> 00:14:59,330
BEN: And are you gonna
run any code on it?
317
00:14:59,365 --> 00:15:00,865
STUART: I am.
318
00:15:00,900 --> 00:15:03,334
I'm actually running code that
we have in Python right now.
319
00:15:03,369 --> 00:15:07,004
First we set our variable
to the IP address of the PLC.
320
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:11,042
Then override our memory
address here, MX0.0, which is
321
00:15:11,077 --> 00:15:14,378
the area in ladder logic
which allows us to control
322
00:15:14,414 --> 00:15:18,049
the safety disable, and
override that, which allows us
323
00:15:18,084 --> 00:15:21,219
to control the PLC itself
and do anything we want with it.
324
00:15:21,254 --> 00:15:23,554
So would you like
to do the honours?
325
00:15:23,590 --> 00:15:25,156
Alright.
326
00:15:26,426 --> 00:15:27,692
Just hit enter.
327
00:15:27,727 --> 00:15:32,563
(Loud buzzing)
328
00:15:36,636 --> 00:15:37,835
(Explosion)
329
00:15:37,871 --> 00:15:39,370
Woo!
330
00:15:41,908 --> 00:15:43,875
STUART: Judas Priest!
331
00:15:43,910 --> 00:15:45,610
That actually
sounded like a bomb.
332
00:15:45,645 --> 00:15:48,546
Yeah, now I won't hear for
a while, but that was good.
333
00:15:48,581 --> 00:15:51,449
Why is it so easy
to control a PLC?
334
00:15:51,484 --> 00:15:53,451
Well, it's so easy because
335
00:15:53,486 --> 00:15:55,553
the way that these things
have been designed,
336
00:15:55,588 --> 00:15:57,955
they never really considered
security from the ground up.
337
00:15:57,991 --> 00:16:00,258
So when they designed them,
they designed them just to work.
338
00:16:00,293 --> 00:16:02,426
Now what's happening is
more and more of them
339
00:16:02,462 --> 00:16:04,862
are getting hacked up, which
is requiring manufacturers
340
00:16:04,898 --> 00:16:07,031
to go back and redesign them.
341
00:16:07,066 --> 00:16:09,400
And you don't think this is just
needless fear-mongering, do you?
342
00:16:09,435 --> 00:16:10,801
I wish it was.
343
00:16:10,837 --> 00:16:12,703
Then I could sleep a lot better.
344
00:16:12,739 --> 00:16:14,539
You can make it more difficult,
345
00:16:14,574 --> 00:16:16,908
you can make it
more challenging, but
346
00:16:16,943 --> 00:16:19,944
at the end of the day it's built
so foundationally insecure that
347
00:16:19,979 --> 00:16:23,481
it makes it incredibly easy
for attackers to gain access.
348
00:16:25,952 --> 00:16:28,152
All the experts I've spoken say our critical infrastructure
349
00:16:28,188 --> 00:16:31,289
is vulnerable, and I wonder what Washington is doing about it.
350
00:16:32,926 --> 00:16:35,626
The best guy to ask that question is Michael Daniel.
351
00:16:35,662 --> 00:16:39,597
He advises President Obama on cybersecurity issues.
352
00:16:39,632 --> 00:16:42,934
So what's the attack
that keeps you up at night?
353
00:16:42,969 --> 00:16:46,971
I would say it's one
that is focused on our
354
00:16:47,006 --> 00:16:51,275
critical infrastructure that has
some unintended consequences.
355
00:16:51,311 --> 00:16:54,178
That's the one that
really I think worries me,
356
00:16:54,214 --> 00:16:57,248
because we don't really actually
understand how these incredibly
357
00:16:57,283 --> 00:17:00,785
complex systems actually
interact with each other.
358
00:17:02,522 --> 00:17:04,922
So you fear that another
superpower might infiltrate
359
00:17:04,958 --> 00:17:07,825
critical infrastructure and
set off an unneeded conflict?
360
00:17:07,860 --> 00:17:11,662
So that is certainly a concern,
although I would actually say
361
00:17:11,698 --> 00:17:16,634
that I'm less worried about
that than I am other actors
362
00:17:16,669 --> 00:17:20,104
that have less interest
in the overall sort of
363
00:17:20,139 --> 00:17:23,641
international current,
you know, status quo.
364
00:17:23,676 --> 00:17:25,343
Who are these adversaries?
365
00:17:25,378 --> 00:17:28,045
So you know, the Director
of National Intelligence
366
00:17:28,081 --> 00:17:29,880
has talked about them
in his testimony.
367
00:17:29,916 --> 00:17:33,017
So Iran and North Korea
certainly top the list.
368
00:17:33,052 --> 00:17:36,787
Although we are not
unconcerned about terrorists
369
00:17:36,823 --> 00:17:39,824
and other actors who don't
bill themselves so much
370
00:17:39,859 --> 00:17:43,327
as terrorists, but certainly
cyber hacktivists and others.
371
00:17:43,363 --> 00:17:44,662
Everything's crackable.
372
00:17:44,697 --> 00:17:48,232
You cannot prevent
all cyber intrusions.
373
00:17:48,268 --> 00:17:49,900
That's just impossible.
374
00:17:49,936 --> 00:17:52,103
You'll never be able
to prevent all of them.
375
00:17:52,138 --> 00:17:54,038
Everything is
penetrable eventually.
376
00:17:58,578 --> 00:18:00,745
Everyone's told me that no critical infrastructure system
377
00:18:00,780 --> 00:18:04,248
is bulletproof, and one US government agency
378
00:18:04,284 --> 00:18:06,217
is trying to keep track of the cyber attacks
379
00:18:06,252 --> 00:18:08,019
happening across the country.
380
00:18:16,696 --> 00:18:17,895
I'm about to meet
with Martin Edwards,
381
00:18:17,930 --> 00:18:20,765
who's the guy tasked
by Homeland Security
382
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,834
at ICS-CERT to protect
US critical infrastructure
383
00:18:23,870 --> 00:18:25,536
against a cyber attack.
384
00:18:28,207 --> 00:18:30,174
BEN: Edwards is somebody who knows the cyber attacks
385
00:18:30,209 --> 00:18:32,610
being lobbed at America's critical infrastructure.
386
00:18:32,645 --> 00:18:36,180
This sort of looks a lot like
Enemy of the State or something.
387
00:18:36,215 --> 00:18:39,784
So what you're in is you're in
the National Cybersecurity
388
00:18:39,819 --> 00:18:42,019
and Communications
Integration Center,
389
00:18:42,055 --> 00:18:45,723
which is more or less the DHS
Operations Center for Cyber.
390
00:18:45,758 --> 00:18:47,591
These are where all
the different analysts
391
00:18:47,627 --> 00:18:50,027
from ICS-CERT, US-CERT
are actively defending
392
00:18:50,063 --> 00:18:52,029
the country's networks.
393
00:18:52,065 --> 00:18:55,032
In 2015 alone, the Department of Homeland Security
394
00:18:55,068 --> 00:18:58,069
spent $1.25 billion on cybersecurity.
395
00:18:59,906 --> 00:19:02,206
You know, we've cleaned up
the place a little bit
396
00:19:02,241 --> 00:19:04,675
for you to come in,
but it's definitely
397
00:19:04,711 --> 00:19:08,913
a very highly active
environment all the time.
398
00:19:10,416 --> 00:19:12,116
Edwards has declassified
the control room,
399
00:19:12,151 --> 00:19:15,219
so we won't see any real-time
threats, but it still gives us
400
00:19:15,254 --> 00:19:17,888
a rare look into their
nation-wide monitoring system.
401
00:19:20,660 --> 00:19:23,828
And how does ICS-CERT
protect the United States?
402
00:19:23,863 --> 00:19:25,229
Yeah, it's tough, it's tough.
403
00:19:25,264 --> 00:19:26,797
It's a big problem.
404
00:19:26,833 --> 00:19:29,100
If there is an incident, either
criminal or nation state level,
405
00:19:29,135 --> 00:19:32,636
we'll send an instant response
team to those companies to work
406
00:19:32,672 --> 00:19:36,240
hand-in-hand with them to
clean up, mitigate the event.
407
00:19:36,275 --> 00:19:39,610
Do you see an awful lot of
nation state actors going after
408
00:19:39,645 --> 00:19:41,112
critical infrastructure?
409
00:19:41,147 --> 00:19:43,080
I would say we see
the whole spectrum.
410
00:19:43,116 --> 00:19:46,250
They all look different,
and we save the word "attack"
411
00:19:46,285 --> 00:19:49,954
for something that is
purposeful and intentional
412
00:19:49,989 --> 00:19:52,990
with an intentional consequence.
413
00:19:53,025 --> 00:19:57,795
A lot of what we see is sort of
reconnaissance, and then
414
00:19:57,830 --> 00:20:00,765
of course yes, we do see the
nation state level actors
415
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,768
either in the espionage business
416
00:20:03,803 --> 00:20:06,704
or prepping the battlefield
type of perspective, right?
417
00:20:06,739 --> 00:20:09,440
So you're trying to
understand the infrastructure
418
00:20:09,475 --> 00:20:11,142
for some future unknown use.
419
00:20:13,413 --> 00:20:15,713
So if most threats Homeland Security see are about
420
00:20:15,748 --> 00:20:18,783
espionage, at what point does a cyber attack cross the line?
421
00:20:20,553 --> 00:20:23,621
At what point does the
administration consider
422
00:20:23,656 --> 00:20:26,157
a critical infrastructure
attack an act of war?
423
00:20:26,192 --> 00:20:29,326
So that is not something
that is well defined.
424
00:20:29,362 --> 00:20:34,298
Fortunately we haven't seen
one of those events here
425
00:20:34,333 --> 00:20:36,801
in the United States in
a way that would, you know,
426
00:20:36,836 --> 00:20:38,469
probably cross that threshold.
427
00:20:38,504 --> 00:20:42,640
And so therefore I think
that we focus on, you know,
428
00:20:42,675 --> 00:20:44,975
really raising the
level of cybersecurity
429
00:20:45,011 --> 00:20:46,844
in our critical infrastructure.
430
00:20:46,879 --> 00:20:49,146
It's one of the areas
that we've worked very hard on
431
00:20:49,182 --> 00:20:51,849
over the course of
this administration.
432
00:20:53,052 --> 00:20:55,986
Even as the US tries to shore up its cyber defenses,
433
00:20:56,022 --> 00:20:58,856
there's little incentive not to attack.
434
00:20:58,891 --> 00:21:00,424
You know, mutually
assured destruction
435
00:21:00,460 --> 00:21:02,593
is another way of
describing deterrence.
436
00:21:02,628 --> 00:21:05,229
If you attack me, I will
fight back, and therefore
437
00:21:05,264 --> 00:21:08,666
it's not in your interest to
attack me in the first place.
438
00:21:08,701 --> 00:21:11,535
And that's where the
difficulty of proving
439
00:21:11,571 --> 00:21:14,872
who actually launched an
attack becomes a major issue,
440
00:21:14,907 --> 00:21:18,175
because it's very rare for a
nation state or a criminal group
441
00:21:18,211 --> 00:21:22,012
to go directly from the server
it controls at the target.
442
00:21:22,048 --> 00:21:24,548
They will often launch
from around the world.
443
00:21:24,584 --> 00:21:26,617
They may hop multiple points.
444
00:21:26,652 --> 00:21:30,054
They may enlist computers
that they've hijacked
445
00:21:30,089 --> 00:21:33,257
as being the spears basically
that they throw at the target.
446
00:21:33,292 --> 00:21:34,959
I mean, you're painting
a pretty dark picture then.
447
00:21:34,994 --> 00:21:37,595
When you get attacked, even
if it's major infrastructure,
448
00:21:37,630 --> 00:21:41,198
the first question is: how sure
am I that I know the country
449
00:21:41,234 --> 00:21:43,300
that either caused it
or allowed it to happen?
450
00:21:43,336 --> 00:21:46,670
And that ambiguity and
that uncertainty is one of
451
00:21:46,706 --> 00:21:49,440
the obstacles to having a
very clear deterrent policy.
452
00:21:53,412 --> 00:21:55,279
Experts and hackers agree that a new war
453
00:21:55,314 --> 00:21:57,515
on critical infrastructure has not only begun,
454
00:21:57,550 --> 00:21:59,149
it's well underway.
455
00:22:01,754 --> 00:22:11,762
♪
41794
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