Original subtitles

telegram is one of the fastest growing

and biggest social messaging apps text

apps in the world popular all around the

world including in the United States but

almost nothing or very little seems to

be known about the company it's

headquartered in Dubai where we are now

it is run and owned and the software is

designed written by Pavo dorov who began

it some years ago who almost never does

interviews it turns out he's in a very

interesting person extremely interesting

person we learned that the other day

while talking to him and he has agreed

to sit down and tell us about himself

and his company and we thought it'd be

definitely worth hearing and with that

Pao thank you for joining us well thank

you for having me so um I confess I used

telegram I didn't know anything about

you or the company and I was just kind

of amazed by your story and if you

wouldn't mind just recreating a little

bit um for our audience where are you

from how did you start this and why uh

that will be a long story that's okay uh

I was was born in 1984 in the Soviet

Union so it was a fun year to be born in

and uh back then I could witness you

know the deficiencies of the centralized

system we had in the Soviet Union when I

was four years old my family moved to

Italy where I could compare what I saw

in tourin Italy with what I experienced

in the Soviet Union and I thought the

capitalist system the free market system

is definitely better at least for me um

and uh I went to school in Italy I uh

became sort of a part of the um European

as a result but then when the Soviet

Union collapsed we decided to move back

to Russia uh in Italy though we me and

my brother we had a lot of fun time uh

he was shown live on Italian TV as a

young Prodigy kid who could Sol

cubic equations in uh real time uh being

just you know 10 years old and that was

considered to be impossible back then in

Italy I don't know what a cubic equation

is so yeah it sounds

difficult definitely and you know when I

first went to school in it I didn't know

how to speak Italian I didn't know a

single Italian word and a lot of

teachers said this guy well this kid

will not going to be successful in our

school by the end of the first year was

second best by the end of the uh next

year I was the best student in our class

so it also showed me that well you could

Excel you could compete I like that in

competitive environment and then when we

got back to Russia it was a little bit

chaotic the only reason we got back is

my father got uh an offer to run one of

the departments in the St Petersburg

State University he's one of the uh

famous Scholars and writers uh uh

dealing with ancient Roman literature

and uh that experience was very

different and uh I still enjoyed it

because in Russia in the '90s you had

this experimental schools where uh you

were taught everything like we had six

foreign languages we had math like very

specialized six foreign languages at

once six foreign languages in parallel

you would have math similar that you

would have in specialist math schools

and like chemistry at the same level you

would have schools specialized in

chemistry and biology so that was really

intense uh my brother he became world

champion in maths in international

olympiads in maths and programming many

times in a row uh absolute best myself I

was just the best student at my school

also did uh some victories in local

competitions in several areas but we

both were very passionate about coding

and uh designing stuff and uh we because

we brought this

IBM uh PC XT computer from Italy back in

the early 90s we were one of the few

families in Russia who could actually uh

teach ourselves how to

program and uh we started to do that I

was uh in the University I was building

website for my fellow

students and uh as a result you know

I started a company that became what

they call the Facebook of Russia we

don't like to name it that way because

uh we actually managed to do a lot of

things before Facebook and that defined

how the social

media uh industry developed in the years

to come the company's name was VK I

started it with I was 21 years old I

just graduated University and uh it

eventually became the largest social

network the most popular social network

in Russia Ukraine B Russia Kazakhstan

and a bunch of other post Soviet

countries uh that was an significant

effort on my side because I at a certain

point was the sole employee of the

company I would write the code myself I

would do the design myself myself I

would uh manage the servers myself it

was quite intense I even responded to

customer support requests uh barely

slapped but that was a fun time when I

was 21 22 years old um and then the

company grew like I said to somewhere

about 100 million active users which was

a lot back then it's uh was I think

201 uh 12 or 2011 when we fa this the

our first issues in Russia because you

see I was still a big believer in this

values of free market freedoms freedom

of speech freedom of assembly so when

the Russian opposition started to use VK

to organize large protests in Russia

where like almost half a million people

will would go and protest on the main

square or some of the main squares of

the city uh we were requ requested to

ban these communities on BK by the

government and uh I refused so the

government asked you to shut down

Communications between

their opponents well BK is a social

networking platform so they have this

large public communities that anybody

can join anybody can read what people

are discussing or what the

administrators are posting they can

comment they can share so it was a tool

for these protesters to organize

themselves back then it wasn't about us

you know siding with with one side with

one part of the uh political uh fight or

the other it was us defending the

freedom of speech and the freedom of

assembly which we believed was the right

thing but that didn't go too well with

with the government and uh they were not

too happy about that I would say and uh

in a few years from then in 20 13 we had

a similar situation where uh you know

you had this protests in Ukraine where

people again would use VK to organize

themselves and go to the main square of

the city and uh show their disagreement

with the government yes and we received

a request SL demand from the Russian

side saying you have to give us the

private data of the organiz

of this protest and our response was

wait wait a minute this is a different

country we won't betray our Ukrainian

users because you asked us to do that we

decided to refuse and uh that didn't go

too well with the Russian government as

well so at the end of that year I had to

make

a difficult decision because I was

offered basically a a choice between two

suboptimal options

uh one of which was uh I would start

complying to whatever know the leaders

of the country told me to do it the

other one was I

could um sell my stake in the company

retire resign as the CEO and leave the

country um I chose the

letter uh that's a it's a if I can just

ask you to pause it it's a little

strange because I have heard people say

that telegram is a part of the Russian

government and you're describing the

opposite you're saying you had to leave

the country because you wouldn't bow to

their demands well that exactly like

you're saying people who have very

limited knowledge of where telegram came

from they would make these

claims they could be encouraged by our

competitors who see it is an easy way to

discredit us because you know telegram

is spreading like forest fire two and a

half ion users sign up every day and

we're sort of a threat so I'm not

surprised there's this perception

because our competitors they spend tens

of billions on marketing and they're

known for using PR firms to also engage

in campaigns like that so how do you how

much do you spend on marketing zero zero

dollars in dollars zero dollars we've

never spent anything on acquiring users

for marketing purposes we never promoted

telegram uh you know on other social

Platforms in any way uh this is very

different

from other apps you could see them being

promoted here or there t is different

all of our growth is purely organic and

uh we got to almost 900 million users uh

without uh having to spend anything

on ads to promote teleg amazing I'm I'm

sorry to interrupt your no it's just

it's just interesting because I have

heard people say that um but it sounds

like the opposite of the truth so you

decided to sell the company resign as

CEO and leave your

country yes that's what I did it was a

bit painful because obviously my first

company was my baby I created my stuff

there was a lot of creativity time and

effort invested in that platform but at

the same time uh you know I understood

that i' would rather be free I would

want to take orders from anyone and uh I

left behind probably a comfortable life

uh but for me it was never about you

know becoming rich for me everything in

my life was about becoming free yes

and to the extent it is possible my

mission in life was to allow other

people to also become free in a sense

and using the platforms that we create

or I

created uh My Hope was that they could

express their

freedoms this is the mission of telegram

and it was also in part the mission of

my previous company BK we wanted to

pause this interview just for a minute

to point something out when the Russian

government asked pav durov to use his

social media company to censor its

political opponents he refused he said

he would rather resign and leave the

country where he was born then

participate in something like that such

was his commitment to free speech now

you got to compare that what he did what

pav durov did to what Mark Zuckerberg

did or Prague agarwall the guy who ran

Twitter before Elon Musk bought it both

of them have collaborated with

governments to censor people and that's

shameful so we believe pavle when he

says that his his app telegram will be a

Bastion of free speech because it has

been we believe him cuz he's shown how

committed to that he is so we've decided

that we're going to launch with pride

our own telegram channel to give one

more Avenue to reach people with our

content free from censorship so if

you're on telegram we ask that you would

subscribe to our new channel for by

searching for a username listed below

we're honored uh to be doing this we're

going to get back to our conversation

with Pablo durov so you start telegram

after you leave Russia correct yeah so

the idea for telegram came with when we

were still based in

Russia because at some point we had this

uh very stressful situation where armed

policemen would come to my house try to

break in because I refused to take down

this uh opposition groups that I

mentioned earlier and I realized there

is no secure means of communication I

realized I want to tell my brother

what's going on to coordinate whatever

we want to do and the every tool to

communicate I could use was not really

secure not encrypted uh it was not safe

to use them so I thought hm it could be

a good idea to actually come up with a

know a decently crypted messaging app uh

and my brother being the genius that he

is he was able to create this encryption

standard that we're using up until this

day with minor changes

uh but the IDE your brother wrote the

encryption yes well my brother like two

phds in maths super smart he could you

know he's he's an expert in

cryptography uh he designed uh the basic

principles of the telegram's encryption

I was more on the user interface side

the way how the app works the features

Etc he was responsible for it for the

encryption side so where did you go when

you left

Russia we tried several places we first

went to Berlin we tried to set up a

company in Berlin we then tried London

Singapore San Francisco you name it

we've we've been everywhere and uh why

didn't you stay in any of those places

oh because the bureaucratic hurdles were

just uh too difficult to overcome you

know I was bringing the best inclass

programmers in the world to these places

and I was trying to hire them uh from a

local company and the response I got in

places like Germany for example is that

no no no you can't hire people from

outside of the European Union because

you should first run some newspaper ad

in the local uh magazine whatever and

then for for six months nobody responds

from engineers that are available inside

the European Union and Germany then

you're allowed kind of to hire Outsiders

and I thought it was a crazy idea

because why didn't you just say they

were illiterate

refugees well because we didn't consider

ourselves refu we were you know very

successful people we could have gone

anywhere I know but if you told them you

were illiterate refugees they would let

you

stay yeah so you so you go from Germany

to Singapore to London to San Francisco

what happened in San Francisco well in

San Francisco we really thought that

would be the place for us to be in

because all the tech companies are there

or around San Francisco and uh there

were two things that happened that uh

made us uh think twice uh well one thing

is pretty obvious uh I was in San

Francisco I got attacked on the street

after visiting

uh I think it was Jack dorsy uh in

Twitter in the Twitter's office and uh I

was walking back at 8:00 p.m. to my

hotel and I got attacked in the street

uh this is the only country where I got

attacked in the streets what what

happened just three big guys tried to

grab my phone from my hands I was

tweeting uh about the fact that I just

met uh the founder of Twitter that

seemed right like a right idea for me

back then uh to do and uh I got attacked

uh I didn't want to let them have my

phone um they probably didn't expect uh

resistance so I snatched my phone back

there was a short fight with the guys

there was a little bit blood involved

but I managed to run away uh and decided

I should probably they probably don't

mug a lot of Russians they might have

been

surprised well there were much taller

than me I must admit and there are three

of them but uh I think I put up a good

fight were you surprised did this

happened in San Francisco completely

yeah it was it was a shock to me because

I I traveled a lot that was the first uh

place I I got attacked and I thought all

right maybe we shouldn't uh look at San

Francisco maybe there are other places

in America where where you don't get

attacked yeah exactly uh

but you know there there's this second

part which was probably more alarming

there in the

US we got too much attention from the

the FBI the security agencies wherever

we came to the US so to give you an

example last time I was in the US I

brought an engineer that is working for

telegram and there was an attempt to

secretly hire my engineer behind my back

by cyber security off officers or agents

whatever they are called the US

government should to hire your engineer

that's my understanding that's what he

told me to write code for them or to

break into telegram they were curious to

learn which open-source libraries are

integrated to the telegram's app you

know on the client's side and they were

trying to persuade him to use certain

open-source tools that he would then

integrate into the telegram's code that

in my understanding would serve as back

doors would allow the US government to

spy on people who use telegram the US

government or maybe any other government

because a back door is a back door

regardless of who is using it that's

right and and and you're that's a little

surprising to hear maybe it's not

surprising it's it's

offensive you're confident that happened

yes there is no reason for my engineer

to make up the stories also because I

personally experienced

similar pressure in the US whenever I

would go to the US I would have two FBI

agents greeting me at the airport asking

questions one time I was uh having my

breakfast like 9:00 a.m. and

uh the FBI showed up my house that I was

renting and uh that was quite surprising

and I thought you know we're getting too

much attention here uh it's probably not

the best environment to run why would

the had you committed a crime no they

were interested to learn more about

telegram they knew I you know left

Russia they they knew what we

were doing but they wanted details and

my understanding is that they wanted to

establish a relationship

to in a way control telegram better I'm

I I understand they were doing their job

it's just that for us running a privacy

focused social media platform that

probably wasn't the best environment to

be and we want to be focused on what we

do not on uh government relations of

that sort the government

relations um so then you came to UAE to

Dubai yes seven years ago we uh moved

here we first wanted just to try it

for half a year see if it works out and

it turned out to be a great place we

never looked back and we never wanted to

change thee for any other place after

that why well for a number of reasons

first the ease of doing business here is

uh so high for example you can hire

people from anywhere in the world as

long as you're paying them a good salary

the residence permits they granted

automatically it's very different if you

try to do that in Europe in some other

countries it's very different from them

second it's very tax efficient uh third

uh the infrastructure is great you get a

lot for uh the minimum amount of taxes

you're paying the the the the roads the

airports the hotels the everything I

think you witnessed it yourself yes but

I think more importantly is that it's a

neutral place it's a neutral country

it's a small country that wants to be

friends with friend with everybody uh

it's not aligned geopolitically with any

of the big superpowers and I think it's

uh the best place for a neutral platform

like ours to be in if we want to make

sure we can defend our users privacy and

freedom of speech so in the time that

you've been here there have been a

number of wars and threats of War

precursors to war um

have you had any pressure from the

government here honestly any pressure

from the government here um to reveal a

back door into tegram or to ban anyone

or to make any changes to your business

zero that's the best part for all the

seven years we've been here there's

there's been zero pressure coming from

the eue towards telegram they've been

very supportive very helpful and it's a

big contrast from you know whatever

we've experienced before um what about

what you've experienced since since you

moved here in those seven years have you

come under pressure from other

governments under whose jurisdiction you

don't fall but to to accommodate their

demands well of course well telegram is

is a large platform we are popular in

many many countries and uh we we've uh

been uh receiving a lot of requests

demands some of them were legit

legitimate like if uh

there was a group of people who was

promoting violence there was some

terrorist activity that was uh you know

spreading violence in some parts of the

world publicly uh posting uh things that

any decent human being would disallow or

wouldn't want to be posted we would help

them but in some other cases where we

thought it would be crossing the line it

wouldn't be uh you know in line with our

values of freedom of speech and and

protecting people's private

correspondence we would ignore can can

you give us an example of a request that

you thought crossed into censorship and

and spying violating people's

privacy well there's a I would say a

very funny story related to your home

country um after the events of January

the 6th uh we received a letter from

I I believe uh

Congressman of the democratic side um

and uh they requested that we would

share all the data we had in relation to

what they called this you Uprising or um

and we checked it with our lawyers and

they said you better ignore it but the

letter seemed very

serious uh and the letter said you know

if you're fail to comply with this

request you will be in violation with

know the US Constitution or

something uh so they wanted data on

people who voted for the other guy in

the

election but they wanted the data of

people yeah who were demonstrating in

Washington or wherever they were doing

uh they Pro you're probably right they

were I'm not an expert in the

politics uh What uh what funny about

that is two years exactly two sorry two

weeks after that letter we got another

letter a new letter from the Republican

side of the Congress and there we read

that if we give out any

data according to the previous request

we would be in violation of the US

Constitution so we got two letters that

said whatever we do

would be violating the US Constitution

in a way that was my understanding of

this letters uh from the same

legislative body both from the US

Congress yes so how do you respond to

that

well the same way we respond to most

such requests we decided to ignore them

because it's such a complicated matter

related to internal politics in the US

we don't want to take any if you I

believe this strongly if you ignore your

problems most of them do go away it's

very true it is very no it says it but

it's true um that's amazing have you

ever had demands that you can't

ignore well it it depends unreasonable

demands so I would say the largest

pressure towards telegram is not coming

from governments uh it's coming from

Apple and Google huh so when it comes to

freedom of speech those two platforms

they could basically censor whatever is

you can read access on your

smartphones so I mean do you run the

risk of being thrown out of their stores

exactly that's what they make very clear

that if we fail to comply with the

guidelines so they call it uh telr could

be removed from the

stores well that would be not a small

thing for you right well it's not W be a

small thing for us because obviously a

big chunk of the world population will

lose access to available tool that

they're using every day but you know it

will not also be a small thing for them

I mean there

should I I believe there there must be

find some compromise in such cases but

Apple and Google are not very

compromising when it comes to the

guidelin if they believe some content is

against their rules they will see to it

that all the apps that are distributed

through their uh stores comply with

these

rules are any of those rules or do you

interpret any of those rules do you

believe any of them to be

political in

nature some of them but it's not the

rules it's the application of the rules

the rules themselves they're pretty

General right so

there must be no violence discrimination

public uh publicly available I don't

know child abuse materials it's hard to

disagree with that yes uh but then when

they start to apply those rules

sometimes we are not agreeing with with

their interpretations and we try to uh

you get back to Apple or Google whoever

it is and say look we think you got it

wrong we think actually this

is legitimate way of people expressing

their opinions and sometimes they do

agree to their credit sometimes they

disagree and we still have to take some

content down at least in the version of

telegram that it distributed through

that

platforms so there are a bunch of a

number of conflicts going on around the

world right now and that may

accelerate so would you expect that the

number of Demands and the intensity of

those demands the Persistence of those

demands would increase as the wars

become more

intense let's see I'm really hopeful

that the past is is behind us I want to

be

optimistic um I think now we reached a

point where uh politicians and societies

know what to expect from social media

platforms and where there uh you know

the red lines are yes uh we also learned

much more about the requirements coming

from both them and Google

slapple so and our users get better

educated as well what what is allowed it

was not allowed so I don't necessarily

believe that things are going to get

worse it does seem like the red line for

for governments is allowing organized

opposition to their rule that's what you

saw in Russia with nval and and the

Ukraine crisis in 2014 that's what you

saw from that Democratic member of

Congress after January 6th 2020

definitely there's a p pattern here

telgram has been used by protesters in

places like Hong Kong yes barus

Kazakhstan even in Barcelona back in the

day yes so it's it's it's been a tool

for Theos to a large extent but it

doesn't really matter whether it's

opposition or the ruling party that is

using tou for us we apply the rules

equally to all sides we don't uh become

prejudiced in this way it's not that we

are rooting for the opposition or We are

rooting for the ruling party of it's not

that we don't care but we think it's

important to uh have this platform that

is neutral to all voices because we

believe

that the competition of different ideas

can result in progress and a better

world for everyone that's um in start

contrast to say Facebook which has said

in public you know we tip the scale in

favor of this or that movement and this

or that country all far from the west

and far from Western media attention but

they've said that what do you think of

that tech companies choosing

governments well I think that's one of

the reasons why we ended up here in the

UAE out of all places right so you you

don't want to be geopolitically aligned

you don't want to select the winners in

any of this uh political fights and

that's why you have to be in a neutral

place but I think Facebook in particular

has uh a lot of uh reasons apart from

being based in the US for doing what

they're doing uh I I think every app and

platform plays its own role and we

believe that Humanity does need a

neutral platform like telegram uh that

would be respectful to people's privacy

and

freedoms maybe the mo from a political

perspective it seems like the most

provocative thing telegram does is offer

something called channels which seem

sort of readymade for organizing groups

of people can you explain to viewers who

aren't familiar with them what a

telegram channel is

yes so telegram channel is a one too

many broadcast tool that allows people

to uh quickly disseminate any message to

millions of people so there's a Channel

people subscribe to it it's a one-way

communication meaning a channel can be

used by say a president or a head of

state and uh everybody else will not be

able to send a message to the president

but the president will be able to send a

message to all of the people who

subscribe to his channel yes or her

channel so the point here is uh channels

are so easy to use and they're so deeply

integrated in the messaging user

interface that they became extremely

popular so you receive it like a text

exactly so it's it's a very familiar

form for a lot of people and since we

launched launch channels 8 years ago I

believe uh a few other apps popular apps

followed in our footsteps and copied

that feature as well not nearly as

advanced was we have but it shows that

it's a really uh high quality and

demanded feature that the world

needs I think it's and you don't have to

answer any of these questions if you

don't want if it's too personal but um

you're the owner you you own it and it's

very unusual in fact I've never seen it

um to have a large business like this

owned by one person why didn't you take

and you could have cashed in on private

Equity money along the way but you

didn't why didn't

you well that's true as of now till was

100% owned by myself which is like I

said quite uh unusual I've never heard

of that before the the reason I tried to

you

know stay away from Ben Capital money at

least the early stages of our

development is because we wanted to be

independent we knew that our mission and

our goals not necessarily consistent

with the goals of uh funds that could be

investing into us and also for me it was

never about money right so I have a few

hundred million dollars in my bank

account or in Bitcoin since 10 years ago

and uh I don't do anything anything with

it I don't own any like real estate Jets

or Yachts I don't think those uh this

lifestyle is for me I like to focus on

what we are doing uh with Tel you don't

own

anything like big assets You Don't Own

no big assets an island in Hawaii or no

no no no land no real estate nothing why

well because for me my number number one

priority in life is my freedom and once

you start buying things first it will

tie you down to a physical location in

my view it's my personal view I don't

have nothing against people who are

buying real estate but in my personal

view it would be like this for me and

the second reason is I like to stay

focused on what we do at telegram so I

know that if I buy a house I I buy a jet

something like that I would be spending

time on trying to make it nice and yeah

this will require a lot of time and

effort would you go with leather seats

or velvet seats exactly and you're not

even going to choose yes for me I would

rather make decisions that would

influence how a billion people

communicate rather than choosing the

color of seats in the house that only I

and my relatives probably bunch of my

friends will see

interesting and you didn't take cuz I I

just want I just have to say it a third

time haven't seen this before you

obviously were famous as a young man as

a company Builder and entrepreneur and

so you could have really taken a lot of

money and you didn't because you didn't

want to be

controlled I just didn't see any reason

to do that you know I had enough money

to get by well to be completely Fair

tgram did takes outside money we issued

bonds 3 years ago so we rais debt uh and

that was

uh and and before that we had a

cryptocurrency project that also raised

some funds so there were instances where

we raised outside uh funding but uh when

it comes to company's Equity yeah you

didn't give up ownership we didn't give

anyone ownership or voting control or

anything like that because we also

believe in efficiency I think that

having my myself as the sole owner

director and product manager for this uh

extensive period of time and the

company's development allowed us to move

faster and be how could you be the only

product manager are you still the only

product manager in the company exactly I

still come up with all most of the

features uh I still work directly with

every engineer every designer who is

implementing these features um you know

I'm running this company because I enjoy

it I'm the only product manager because

I think this is the way I can

contribute how big is your HR

department zero well you could say it's

me

and because the way we are engineer no

no you need a big HR department you

don't think you don't Suffer Without

one we in a way decentralized that we

started a platform where we host

contests for engine Engineers it's

actually contest.com we have the

separate uh platform for that and we

select the best of the best Engineers as

a result of the

competitions that we organize we hold

them every like month or two months so

after a series of these competitions we

select the best of the best of the best

and they then maybe could join our team

which is just about 30 Engineers so it's

it's really compact the team super

efficient it's like a a Navy sealed team

and uh uh this is how we operate we

don't need HR department to find uh

super talented

Engineers why doesn't everyone do this I

look at some of these tech companies or

Elon Musk famously when he showed up at

Twitter I mean there were people doing

things that he didn't even know what

they were doing and they didn't know

what they were doing they were like

there was a World Peace Department and a

foosball Department

and why doesn't

everybody run their business like you

well it's an interesting question I

think it all boils down to the question

of uh Independence anyway I asked this

question to the predecessors of el Jack

dorsy Jack and

um um and the his predecessor as well

and uh what you say dick cost I his name

and uh this Jack he told me that uh if I

told him look you can run this company

with 20 people you don't need so many

people here and the response was I agree

with you but if we start firing so many

people it will make the Wall Street

scared they will think something's very

wrong with the company and we don't want

to do that and that's why we got to keep

all this uh employees around so to keep

the stock price high he had to run it

inefficiently

I mean that's what you're saying if I

understood him correctly that's what

what but to to his to his credit El has

to take Twitter private before he could

do all

theorization there's I mean there's

something sort of profound in what

you're saying I mean the whole point of

a publicly traded company or one of the

points so the public can participate in

the ownership of the company but also so

Outsiders can assess the operations of

the company and so there transparencies

we know how the company is run because

it's owned by the

public and so it would be by definition

more efficient you would think but

you're saying that it's wildly less

efficient that you wind up with a

foosball department when it's publicly

traded but when it's privately held you

don't I mean that's kind of the opposite

of what you would think right well I

guess most tech Founders would actually

agree that running a public

company is uh less efficient than

running a private company because you

have to be accountable to much more

people there's a lot of redundancy

bureaucracy

involved so from a purely like

efficiency standpoint I would argue and

I think a lot of people would agree with

me that we a a public company is

suboptimal however there are other

advantages of of uh getting listed and

of course that is relevant when you want

to acquire other companies cash right

yes you can have access to cheap Capital

you know there's a lot of things you can

do but you don't want to do any of those

things well not not presently definitely

I am enjoying running my company in The

Way It Is Well who knows what the future

holds but uh as of now I think we are

doing a great job with uh with telegram

900 million users will probably cross a

billion uh monthly active users within a

year from now I think we're doing great

why would we lose this momentum right

now can I just go back to something you

said the at the outset you don't have an

HR department you only have 30 Engineers

working for

you you run the products you own the

company such a tight organization but

how do you get new users if you spend

zero money for Acquisitions if you're

not advertising if you're not paying to

bring people in how do you how do you do

that how do you get to a billion for

free because people love our product

what we realized pretty early on is that

people are

smart people like to use good things and

they don't like to use inferior things

that's why whenever you have a person

who who started to use Telegram and

they're there for a while and they start

to discover all the features all their

uh you know the speed the security the

pro everything that we have uh they

don't want want to go back and they

start inviting their friends

recommending them you should really

check this app out because it's so much

better than everything else also because

people realize that whatever uh

messaging apps they're using right now

they're like five six years behind

They're copying what we did six years

ago and that's not a you know very high

quality copy that they make of our

features so people love quality that's

why they move they also love the

independent they also love the Privacy

they love the freedom there are a lot of

reasons why somebody would switch to

telegram from other apps so one of the

things we learned when Elon Musk bought

Twitter is that the Intel agencies not

just us but a bunch of other countries

The Usual Suspects um were all over the

company I mean they were some of them

were present working at the company they

had access to the direct messages you

can just imagine well you know because

you run one but the wealth of data

flowing through would be of great

interest to to governments does that

make you paranoid that you'll be

penetrated I mean I I assume governments

would like to know what's going on sort

of privately on telegram well there's

definitely a lot of responsibility that

we have on our shoulders and we I

wouldn't say we are paranoid but I think

it makes sense to stay prudent and uh

you know not being uh too accessible not

traveling to weird places you don't

travel to weird places I hope

not like I travel to places where I have

uh confidence that you know those places

are uh consistent with what we do in our

values I don't go to any of the big

geopolitical powers of the countries

like China or Russia or the US so uh you

don't go to the US I try not to I can go

but you know it's uh too much attention

like I described before yeah because at

some point if you run something like

this you're a player in World politics I

mean by Def whether you want to be or

not don't you think we definitely don't

want to be a player we want to be a

neutral platform that is impartial and

you know doesn't take any side but

you're probably right there's some role

we have to play well not taking aside is

the one thing you're not allowed to do

right right I mean aren't you required

to take aide in the modern world I think

that's a big problem because I think

that kind of

um attitude can result in our world

becoming a more dangerous place because

at the end of the day we all have to try

to understand each other and try to get

closer to each other in in terms of

getting to know the positions of the

other people even those they're

drastically different from our own

positions and that's how we get to some

compromise and and move forward if we're

strictly divided and everybody is

required to take a side and we can't

take a side because we are this platform

that people should

use to collaborate and to find common

ground and hopefully to move forward if

we lose that we can end up in a much

more dangerous place

how often do you intersect with the

National Security Agency NSA and I asked

that as someone whose texts were read by

them so I I I know that they're very

active in this world um what's your

experience

been well I think the NSA is not uh an

agency that works with you directly

right I don't come and C you're so

diplomatic I love it the N is not an

agency that works with you directly no

that is true that is true true so my

knowledge of my interactions with the

NSA is very limited yes I could read

something in the newspapers about you

know my phone being penetrated with

Pegasus or something like that I no idea

whether it's true or not but this is the

only source of information I can have

about me personally being of interest to

any of uh you know the secret agencies

but you've got to think even though you

haven't done an interview in seven years

is uh you know you're it's it's widely

known by people who are interested who

you are in your role in this I mean

you've got to think you're under just

crazy amounts of surveillance wouldn't

you think that's probably true you know

it would sound funny but I assume by

default that the devices I use I are

compromised yes because you you you will

still use an iPhone or an Android phone

and uh

now After experiencing what I

experienced in the US I have very

limited faith

in platforms developed in the US from a

security standpoint yes privacy

standpoint exactly yeah because in a lot

of countries ours America included

spying is described as quote security

you're looking at it from the other

perspective you're assuming that

security is privacy and my right not to

be spied upon but big governments

describe spying upon you as security

thank you for this

correction um so last question do you

since you've done this since you were in

college and you've been at the center of

it where do you see it going and by this

I mean the free exchange the private

exchange of information between

Sovereign individuals human beings

nonslaved

when I was a child that was possible

it's increasingly difficult are we

moving toward a world where there just

is no private

communication or do you think that

privacy will remain despite say AI or

just massive increases in computing

power well this depends on the extent of

privacy uh when you say privacy will

remain do you mean that we have absolute

privacy now I don't think that we do and

I think the world is becoming less

amenable government's becoming less

tolerant of privacy it's clearly the

trend because they have more

technological

power but will they win I guess will

there ever be a way to preserve privacy

you know can is there a place for it I

believe in that I an optimist I think

some new secure Hardware you know

communication devices will be created uh

in a similar way that now we have uh

Hardware wallets to store your

cryptocurrency yes maybe we'll have

secure

communication devices you know to send

messages or do voice calls it's possible

uh I do believe that you know the world

develops in cycles and uh if things seem

to go in one direction today doesn't

seem doesn't mean that tomorrow they

will go the same direction

I also feel that at some point

people will get tired of uh what they

experienc today and they would decide to

you know move to some other direction so

it's I I seen it after covid for example

so during Co you had a lot of

restrictions also on social media

platforms you most social media

platforms you were not really allowed

to express doubt in relation to

lockdowns or vaccines or masks and uh at

some point I could feel that the

sentiment changed people started to feel

very very tired and sometimes

angry with the fact that they were not

allowed to express their opinions

particularly after the end of uh the

pandemic uh PE a lot of people start

started to

be even more skeptical about the

restrictions in their freedoms that they

experienced during the pandemic what was

your position as a business owner uh

during covid did you must have come

under pressure to censor opinions on

lockdowns vaccines masking what how did

you respond so our position is pretty

straightforward we're a neutral platform

we were helping governments to spread

their message about the lockdowns and

masks and accidents we had dozens of

governments who we really helped uh you

know de simulate their information but

we also didn't want to restrict the

voices that were critical of all these

measures we thought it made sense for

this opposing views to collide and

hopefully you know see some truth come

out of those debates and of course we

got critic for that but uh looking back

I think it was the right strategy so you

allowed people to voice doubts about the

so-called science throughout the

throughout the

experience exactly during the pandemic

we I think were one of the few or maybe

the only major social media platform

that didn't uh take down accounts that

were

skeptical uh in relation to some of

these measures so why why are you not

famous and treated as a hero in the

United

States shouldn't there be a parade in

your honor if you're the only social

media platform not to take down what

turned out to be true or in some to some

extent true more certainly more true

than the CDC

guidance I mean why why why weren't you

times Man of the Year why isn't your

face on the

nickel I'm not an expert in us

politics but to to be fair you have now

uh Twitter or a yeah that uh seemingly

becoming more Pro freedom of speech uh

and uh I think it is it's it's it's it's

a great development and back to our

earlier discussion about how all of this

is developing in

Cycles things are starting to change it

seems

so do you I mean but in in some ways

Elon buying

Twitter sort of ends your

Monopoly but you still greet it

cheerfully you're still in favor of it

definitely we we love the fact that uh

Elan bought Twitter we thought it was a

great development for a number of

reasons first reason is just Innovation

you could see ax doing trying a lot of

things some of them will turn out to be

mistakes some of them will work but at

least they're trying to innovate that's

something we didn't have outside of

telegram and a few other companies in

this industry for the last 10 years what

you saw from the big players they would

rather copy The Proven models the

features that apps like

telegram

launch and just scale them on a larger

audience this features would be a pale

will be pale pale reflections of what we

built but this was the way those

companies operate still

operate what x is trying to do is uh in

line what we're building you know

Innovation trying different things uh

trying to give power to the

creators uh trying to get the ecosystem

economy going those are all exciting

things and uh I think we need more

companies like that I was I don't know

if it's good for Humanity that um like Y

is spending so much time on Twitter

making it better but it's definitely

good for the social media

industry when you see the other the guys

who run these other companies like what

do you do know them and do you ever talk

about freedom of speech I mean if you're

running you're running to Mark not you

don't have to answer of course if you

don't want but like if you're running to

Mark

Zuckerberg yeah I we met with Mark more

than 10 years ago I was still running VK

and I told them I told Mark and his

colleagues about

our uh app platform we launched an app

platform I think it was 2009 at VK they

were very interested it was an

interesting

meeting

um they ended up trying to copy not what

we did but what I told them we did uh it

was funny um I remember him asking

whether we were planning

to uh start something on a global uh

basis on the global Lael level like go

uh for international expansion I said no

and I asked him whether he was going to

try to capture more of my domestic

Market where I was working on and he

said no and we both ended up doing

exactly that in like two or three weeks

that was so I'm thinking I shouldn't go

into business with Mark

Zuckerberg

uh no

comment pav J that thank you very much

it a great conversation I appreciate and

we're rooting for you thank you for

having me of

course free speech is bigger than any

one person or any one organization

societies are defined by what they will

not permit what we're watching is the

total inversion of virtue hey it's

Tucker Carlson the internet is crowded

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