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telegram is one of the fastest growing
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and biggest social messaging apps text
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apps in the world popular all around the
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world including in the United States but
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almost nothing or very little seems to
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be known about the company it's
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headquartered in Dubai where we are now
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it is run and owned and the software is
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designed written by Pavo dorov who began
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it some years ago who almost never does
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interviews it turns out he's in a very
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interesting person extremely interesting
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person we learned that the other day
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while talking to him and he has agreed
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to sit down and tell us about himself
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and his company and we thought it'd be
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definitely worth hearing and with that
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Pao thank you for joining us well thank
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you for having me so um I confess I used
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telegram I didn't know anything about
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you or the company and I was just kind
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of amazed by your story and if you
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wouldn't mind just recreating a little
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bit um for our audience where are you
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from how did you start this and why uh
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that will be a long story that's okay uh
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I was was born in 1984 in the Soviet
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Union so it was a fun year to be born in
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and uh back then I could witness you
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know the deficiencies of the centralized
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system we had in the Soviet Union when I
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was four years old my family moved to
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Italy where I could compare what I saw
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in tourin Italy with what I experienced
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in the Soviet Union and I thought the
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capitalist system the free market system
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is definitely better at least for me um
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and uh I went to school in Italy I uh
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became sort of a part of the um European
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as a result but then when the Soviet
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Union collapsed we decided to move back
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to Russia uh in Italy though we me and
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my brother we had a lot of fun time uh
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he was shown live on Italian TV as a
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young Prodigy kid who could Sol
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cubic equations in uh real time uh being
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just you know 10 years old and that was
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considered to be impossible back then in
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Italy I don't know what a cubic equation
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is so yeah it sounds
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difficult definitely and you know when I
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first went to school in it I didn't know
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how to speak Italian I didn't know a
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single Italian word and a lot of
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teachers said this guy well this kid
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will not going to be successful in our
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school by the end of the first year was
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second best by the end of the uh next
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year I was the best student in our class
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so it also showed me that well you could
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Excel you could compete I like that in
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competitive environment and then when we
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got back to Russia it was a little bit
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chaotic the only reason we got back is
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my father got uh an offer to run one of
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the departments in the St Petersburg
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State University he's one of the uh
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famous Scholars and writers uh uh
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dealing with ancient Roman literature
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and uh that experience was very
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different and uh I still enjoyed it
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because in Russia in the '90s you had
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this experimental schools where uh you
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were taught everything like we had six
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foreign languages we had math like very
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specialized six foreign languages at
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once six foreign languages in parallel
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you would have math similar that you
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would have in specialist math schools
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and like chemistry at the same level you
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would have schools specialized in
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chemistry and biology so that was really
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intense uh my brother he became world
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champion in maths in international
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olympiads in maths and programming many
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times in a row uh absolute best myself I
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was just the best student at my school
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also did uh some victories in local
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competitions in several areas but we
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both were very passionate about coding
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and uh designing stuff and uh we because
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we brought this
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IBM uh PC XT computer from Italy back in
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the early 90s we were one of the few
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families in Russia who could actually uh
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teach ourselves how to
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program and uh we started to do that I
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was uh in the University I was building
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website for my fellow
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students and uh as a result you know
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I started a company that became what
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they call the Facebook of Russia we
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don't like to name it that way because
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uh we actually managed to do a lot of
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things before Facebook and that defined
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how the social
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media uh industry developed in the years
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to come the company's name was VK I
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started it with I was 21 years old I
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just graduated University and uh it
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eventually became the largest social
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network the most popular social network
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in Russia Ukraine B Russia Kazakhstan
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and a bunch of other post Soviet
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countries uh that was an significant
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effort on my side because I at a certain
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point was the sole employee of the
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company I would write the code myself I
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would do the design myself myself I
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would uh manage the servers myself it
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was quite intense I even responded to
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customer support requests uh barely
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slapped but that was a fun time when I
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was 21 22 years old um and then the
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company grew like I said to somewhere
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about 100 million active users which was
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a lot back then it's uh was I think
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201 uh 12 or 2011 when we fa this the
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our first issues in Russia because you
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see I was still a big believer in this
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values of free market freedoms freedom
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of speech freedom of assembly so when
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the Russian opposition started to use VK
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to organize large protests in Russia
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where like almost half a million people
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will would go and protest on the main
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square or some of the main squares of
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the city uh we were requ requested to
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ban these communities on BK by the
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government and uh I refused so the
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government asked you to shut down
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Communications between
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their opponents well BK is a social
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networking platform so they have this
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large public communities that anybody
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can join anybody can read what people
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are discussing or what the
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administrators are posting they can
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comment they can share so it was a tool
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for these protesters to organize
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themselves back then it wasn't about us
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you know siding with with one side with
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one part of the uh political uh fight or
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the other it was us defending the
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freedom of speech and the freedom of
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assembly which we believed was the right
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thing but that didn't go too well with
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with the government and uh they were not
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too happy about that I would say and uh
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in a few years from then in 20 13 we had
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a similar situation where uh you know
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you had this protests in Ukraine where
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people again would use VK to organize
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themselves and go to the main square of
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the city and uh show their disagreement
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with the government yes and we received
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a request SL demand from the Russian
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side saying you have to give us the
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private data of the organiz
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of this protest and our response was
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wait wait a minute this is a different
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country we won't betray our Ukrainian
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users because you asked us to do that we
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decided to refuse and uh that didn't go
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too well with the Russian government as
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well so at the end of that year I had to
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make
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a difficult decision because I was
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offered basically a a choice between two
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suboptimal options
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uh one of which was uh I would start
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complying to whatever know the leaders
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of the country told me to do it the
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other one was I
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could um sell my stake in the company
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retire resign as the CEO and leave the
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country um I chose the
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letter uh that's a it's a if I can just
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ask you to pause it it's a little
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strange because I have heard people say
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that telegram is a part of the Russian
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government and you're describing the
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opposite you're saying you had to leave
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the country because you wouldn't bow to
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their demands well that exactly like
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you're saying people who have very
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limited knowledge of where telegram came
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from they would make these
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claims they could be encouraged by our
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competitors who see it is an easy way to
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discredit us because you know telegram
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is spreading like forest fire two and a
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half ion users sign up every day and
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we're sort of a threat so I'm not
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surprised there's this perception
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because our competitors they spend tens
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of billions on marketing and they're
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known for using PR firms to also engage
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in campaigns like that so how do you how
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much do you spend on marketing zero zero
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dollars in dollars zero dollars we've
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never spent anything on acquiring users
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for marketing purposes we never promoted
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telegram uh you know on other social
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Platforms in any way uh this is very
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different
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from other apps you could see them being
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promoted here or there t is different
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all of our growth is purely organic and
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uh we got to almost 900 million users uh
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without uh having to spend anything
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on ads to promote teleg amazing I'm I'm
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sorry to interrupt your no it's just
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it's just interesting because I have
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heard people say that um but it sounds
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like the opposite of the truth so you
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decided to sell the company resign as
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CEO and leave your
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country yes that's what I did it was a
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bit painful because obviously my first
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company was my baby I created my stuff
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there was a lot of creativity time and
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effort invested in that platform but at
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the same time uh you know I understood
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that i' would rather be free I would
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want to take orders from anyone and uh I
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left behind probably a comfortable life
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uh but for me it was never about you
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know becoming rich for me everything in
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my life was about becoming free yes
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and to the extent it is possible my
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mission in life was to allow other
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people to also become free in a sense
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and using the platforms that we create
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or I
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created uh My Hope was that they could
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express their
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freedoms this is the mission of telegram
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and it was also in part the mission of
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my previous company BK we wanted to
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pause this interview just for a minute
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to point something out when the Russian
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government asked pav durov to use his
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social media company to censor its
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political opponents he refused he said
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he would rather resign and leave the
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country where he was born then
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participate in something like that such
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was his commitment to free speech now
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you got to compare that what he did what
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pav durov did to what Mark Zuckerberg
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did or Prague agarwall the guy who ran
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Twitter before Elon Musk bought it both
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of them have collaborated with
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governments to censor people and that's
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shameful so we believe pavle when he
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says that his his app telegram will be a
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Bastion of free speech because it has
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been we believe him cuz he's shown how
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committed to that he is so we've decided
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that we're going to launch with pride
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our own telegram channel to give one
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more Avenue to reach people with our
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content free from censorship so if
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you're on telegram we ask that you would
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subscribe to our new channel for by
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searching for a username listed below
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we're honored uh to be doing this we're
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going to get back to our conversation
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with Pablo durov so you start telegram
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after you leave Russia correct yeah so
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the idea for telegram came with when we
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were still based in
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Russia because at some point we had this
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uh very stressful situation where armed
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policemen would come to my house try to
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break in because I refused to take down
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this uh opposition groups that I
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mentioned earlier and I realized there
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is no secure means of communication I
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realized I want to tell my brother
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what's going on to coordinate whatever
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we want to do and the every tool to
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communicate I could use was not really
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secure not encrypted uh it was not safe
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to use them so I thought hm it could be
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a good idea to actually come up with a
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know a decently crypted messaging app uh
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and my brother being the genius that he
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is he was able to create this encryption
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standard that we're using up until this
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day with minor changes
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uh but the IDE your brother wrote the
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encryption yes well my brother like two
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phds in maths super smart he could you
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know he's he's an expert in
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cryptography uh he designed uh the basic
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principles of the telegram's encryption
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I was more on the user interface side
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the way how the app works the features
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Etc he was responsible for it for the
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encryption side so where did you go when
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you left
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Russia we tried several places we first
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went to Berlin we tried to set up a
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company in Berlin we then tried London
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Singapore San Francisco you name it
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we've we've been everywhere and uh why
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didn't you stay in any of those places
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oh because the bureaucratic hurdles were
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just uh too difficult to overcome you
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know I was bringing the best inclass
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programmers in the world to these places
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and I was trying to hire them uh from a
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local company and the response I got in
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places like Germany for example is that
327
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no no no you can't hire people from
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outside of the European Union because
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you should first run some newspaper ad
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in the local uh magazine whatever and
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then for for six months nobody responds
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from engineers that are available inside
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the European Union and Germany then
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you're allowed kind of to hire Outsiders
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and I thought it was a crazy idea
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because why didn't you just say they
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were illiterate
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refugees well because we didn't consider
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ourselves refu we were you know very
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successful people we could have gone
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anywhere I know but if you told them you
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00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,759
were illiterate refugees they would let
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you
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stay yeah so you so you go from Germany
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to Singapore to London to San Francisco
346
00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:08,399
what happened in San Francisco well in
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00:16:05,039 --> 00:16:11,159
San Francisco we really thought that
348
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would be the place for us to be in
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because all the tech companies are there
350
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or around San Francisco and uh there
351
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were two things that happened that uh
352
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:25,079
made us uh think twice uh well one thing
353
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:28,078
is pretty obvious uh I was in San
354
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Francisco I got attacked on the street
355
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after visiting
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uh I think it was Jack dorsy uh in
357
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Twitter in the Twitter's office and uh I
358
00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:43,360
was walking back at 8:00 p.m. to my
359
00:16:40,679 --> 00:16:46,519
hotel and I got attacked in the street
360
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:48,480
uh this is the only country where I got
361
00:16:46,519 --> 00:16:51,318
attacked in the streets what what
362
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:53,879
happened just three big guys tried to
363
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grab my phone from my hands I was
364
00:16:53,879 --> 00:16:58,919
tweeting uh about the fact that I just
365
00:16:56,198 --> 00:17:01,639
met uh the founder of Twitter that
366
00:16:58,919 --> 00:17:04,918
seemed right like a right idea for me
367
00:17:01,639 --> 00:17:07,640
back then uh to do and uh I got attacked
368
00:17:04,919 --> 00:17:12,000
uh I didn't want to let them have my
369
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:14,759
phone um they probably didn't expect uh
370
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:16,720
resistance so I snatched my phone back
371
00:17:14,759 --> 00:17:19,199
there was a short fight with the guys
372
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there was a little bit blood involved
373
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but I managed to run away uh and decided
374
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I should probably they probably don't
375
00:17:25,038 --> 00:17:27,480
mug a lot of Russians they might have
376
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been
377
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:31,880
surprised well there were much taller
378
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than me I must admit and there are three
379
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of them but uh I think I put up a good
380
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fight were you surprised did this
381
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:42,200
happened in San Francisco completely
382
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yeah it was it was a shock to me because
383
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:48,319
I I traveled a lot that was the first uh
384
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place I I got attacked and I thought all
385
00:17:48,319 --> 00:17:53,639
right maybe we shouldn't uh look at San
386
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Francisco maybe there are other places
387
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:59,640
in America where where you don't get
388
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attacked yeah exactly uh
389
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:04,919
but you know there there's this second
390
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part which was probably more alarming
391
00:18:04,919 --> 00:18:10,640
there in the
392
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US we got too much attention from the
393
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:16,038
the FBI the security agencies wherever
394
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we came to the US so to give you an
395
00:18:16,038 --> 00:18:22,519
example last time I was in the US I
396
00:18:19,079 --> 00:18:25,519
brought an engineer that is working for
397
00:18:22,519 --> 00:18:29,480
telegram and there was an attempt to
398
00:18:25,519 --> 00:18:32,679
secretly hire my engineer behind my back
399
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:34,360
by cyber security off officers or agents
400
00:18:32,679 --> 00:18:36,640
whatever they are called the US
401
00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:38,158
government should to hire your engineer
402
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:41,038
that's my understanding that's what he
403
00:18:38,159 --> 00:18:44,240
told me to write code for them or to
404
00:18:41,038 --> 00:18:47,200
break into telegram they were curious to
405
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:50,038
learn which open-source libraries are
406
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:52,759
integrated to the telegram's app you
407
00:18:50,038 --> 00:18:56,440
know on the client's side and they were
408
00:18:52,759 --> 00:18:59,839
trying to persuade him to use certain
409
00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:02,279
open-source tools that he would then
410
00:18:59,839 --> 00:19:04,918
integrate into the telegram's code that
411
00:19:02,279 --> 00:19:07,440
in my understanding would serve as back
412
00:19:04,919 --> 00:19:10,000
doors would allow the US government to
413
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:12,279
spy on people who use telegram the US
414
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,919
government or maybe any other government
415
00:19:12,279 --> 00:19:16,599
because a back door is a back door
416
00:19:13,919 --> 00:19:19,280
regardless of who is using it that's
417
00:19:16,599 --> 00:19:20,798
right and and and you're that's a little
418
00:19:19,279 --> 00:19:22,480
surprising to hear maybe it's not
419
00:19:20,798 --> 00:19:26,000
surprising it's it's
420
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:29,480
offensive you're confident that happened
421
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:32,279
yes there is no reason for my engineer
422
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:34,440
to make up the stories also because I
423
00:19:32,279 --> 00:19:37,639
personally experienced
424
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:40,759
similar pressure in the US whenever I
425
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:43,159
would go to the US I would have two FBI
426
00:19:40,759 --> 00:19:47,240
agents greeting me at the airport asking
427
00:19:43,159 --> 00:19:50,159
questions one time I was uh having my
428
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:54,679
breakfast like 9:00 a.m. and
429
00:19:50,159 --> 00:19:57,960
uh the FBI showed up my house that I was
430
00:19:54,679 --> 00:20:00,280
renting and uh that was quite surprising
431
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:03,079
and I thought you know we're getting too
432
00:20:00,279 --> 00:20:05,759
much attention here uh it's probably not
433
00:20:03,079 --> 00:20:08,599
the best environment to run why would
434
00:20:05,759 --> 00:20:11,079
the had you committed a crime no they
435
00:20:08,599 --> 00:20:14,079
were interested to learn more about
436
00:20:11,079 --> 00:20:17,319
telegram they knew I you know left
437
00:20:14,079 --> 00:20:20,839
Russia they they knew what we
438
00:20:17,319 --> 00:20:23,200
were doing but they wanted details and
439
00:20:20,839 --> 00:20:25,439
my understanding is that they wanted to
440
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:29,679
establish a relationship
441
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:31,679
to in a way control telegram better I'm
442
00:20:29,679 --> 00:20:35,120
I I understand they were doing their job
443
00:20:31,679 --> 00:20:37,919
it's just that for us running a privacy
444
00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:40,359
focused social media platform that
445
00:20:37,919 --> 00:20:42,440
probably wasn't the best environment to
446
00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:45,639
be and we want to be focused on what we
447
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:47,960
do not on uh government relations of
448
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:51,559
that sort the government
449
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:55,880
relations um so then you came to UAE to
450
00:20:51,558 --> 00:20:59,279
Dubai yes seven years ago we uh moved
451
00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:02,880
here we first wanted just to try it
452
00:20:59,279 --> 00:21:05,279
for half a year see if it works out and
453
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:09,120
it turned out to be a great place we
454
00:21:05,279 --> 00:21:12,119
never looked back and we never wanted to
455
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:15,158
change thee for any other place after
456
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:18,278
that why well for a number of reasons
457
00:21:15,159 --> 00:21:20,960
first the ease of doing business here is
458
00:21:18,278 --> 00:21:22,880
uh so high for example you can hire
459
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:25,558
people from anywhere in the world as
460
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:28,039
long as you're paying them a good salary
461
00:21:25,558 --> 00:21:30,079
the residence permits they granted
462
00:21:28,038 --> 00:21:32,158
automatically it's very different if you
463
00:21:30,079 --> 00:21:34,480
try to do that in Europe in some other
464
00:21:32,159 --> 00:21:38,240
countries it's very different from them
465
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:40,400
second it's very tax efficient uh third
466
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:44,558
uh the infrastructure is great you get a
467
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:47,440
lot for uh the minimum amount of taxes
468
00:21:44,558 --> 00:21:50,399
you're paying the the the the roads the
469
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:53,240
airports the hotels the everything I
470
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:55,120
think you witnessed it yourself yes but
471
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,640
I think more importantly is that it's a
472
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,798
neutral place it's a neutral country
473
00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:02,559
it's a small country that wants to be
474
00:21:58,798 --> 00:22:06,679
friends with friend with everybody uh
475
00:22:02,558 --> 00:22:09,879
it's not aligned geopolitically with any
476
00:22:06,679 --> 00:22:13,000
of the big superpowers and I think it's
477
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:15,880
uh the best place for a neutral platform
478
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:18,000
like ours to be in if we want to make
479
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:20,278
sure we can defend our users privacy and
480
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,558
freedom of speech so in the time that
481
00:22:20,278 --> 00:22:25,640
you've been here there have been a
482
00:22:21,558 --> 00:22:29,240
number of wars and threats of War
483
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:30,679
precursors to war um
484
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,200
have you had any pressure from the
485
00:22:30,679 --> 00:22:35,360
government here honestly any pressure
486
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:38,240
from the government here um to reveal a
487
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:40,319
back door into tegram or to ban anyone
488
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:44,720
or to make any changes to your business
489
00:22:40,319 --> 00:22:47,038
zero that's the best part for all the
490
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:49,079
seven years we've been here there's
491
00:22:47,038 --> 00:22:51,278
there's been zero pressure coming from
492
00:22:49,079 --> 00:22:53,879
the eue towards telegram they've been
493
00:22:51,278 --> 00:22:56,200
very supportive very helpful and it's a
494
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:59,000
big contrast from you know whatever
495
00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:00,558
we've experienced before um what about
496
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,400
what you've experienced since since you
497
00:23:00,558 --> 00:23:03,879
moved here in those seven years have you
498
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,159
come under pressure from other
499
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:09,840
governments under whose jurisdiction you
500
00:23:06,159 --> 00:23:12,840
don't fall but to to accommodate their
501
00:23:09,839 --> 00:23:16,000
demands well of course well telegram is
502
00:23:12,839 --> 00:23:21,558
is a large platform we are popular in
503
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:24,519
many many countries and uh we we've uh
504
00:23:21,558 --> 00:23:26,480
been uh receiving a lot of requests
505
00:23:24,519 --> 00:23:28,960
demands some of them were legit
506
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:31,480
legitimate like if uh
507
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:33,000
there was a group of people who was
508
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:36,159
promoting violence there was some
509
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:38,038
terrorist activity that was uh you know
510
00:23:36,159 --> 00:23:44,200
spreading violence in some parts of the
511
00:23:38,038 --> 00:23:46,798
world publicly uh posting uh things that
512
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:49,600
any decent human being would disallow or
513
00:23:46,798 --> 00:23:52,720
wouldn't want to be posted we would help
514
00:23:49,599 --> 00:23:54,719
them but in some other cases where we
515
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:58,839
thought it would be crossing the line it
516
00:23:54,720 --> 00:24:00,960
wouldn't be uh you know in line with our
517
00:23:58,839 --> 00:24:04,558
values of freedom of speech and and
518
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:07,319
protecting people's private
519
00:24:04,558 --> 00:24:09,399
correspondence we would ignore can can
520
00:24:07,319 --> 00:24:12,678
you give us an example of a request that
521
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:15,120
you thought crossed into censorship and
522
00:24:12,679 --> 00:24:18,559
and spying violating people's
523
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:21,158
privacy well there's a I would say a
524
00:24:18,558 --> 00:24:24,798
very funny story related to your home
525
00:24:21,159 --> 00:24:29,200
country um after the events of January
526
00:24:24,798 --> 00:24:31,240
the 6th uh we received a letter from
527
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:34,759
I I believe uh
528
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:37,839
Congressman of the democratic side um
529
00:24:34,759 --> 00:24:41,480
and uh they requested that we would
530
00:24:37,839 --> 00:24:45,759
share all the data we had in relation to
531
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:48,519
what they called this you Uprising or um
532
00:24:45,759 --> 00:24:51,200
and we checked it with our lawyers and
533
00:24:48,519 --> 00:24:52,639
they said you better ignore it but the
534
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:56,200
letter seemed very
535
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:59,520
serious uh and the letter said you know
536
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:02,798
if you're fail to comply with this
537
00:24:59,519 --> 00:25:05,759
request you will be in violation with
538
00:25:02,798 --> 00:25:08,319
know the US Constitution or
539
00:25:05,759 --> 00:25:09,879
something uh so they wanted data on
540
00:25:08,319 --> 00:25:10,918
people who voted for the other guy in
541
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,200
the
542
00:25:10,919 --> 00:25:16,360
election but they wanted the data of
543
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:19,319
people yeah who were demonstrating in
544
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:21,319
Washington or wherever they were doing
545
00:25:19,319 --> 00:25:24,359
uh they Pro you're probably right they
546
00:25:21,319 --> 00:25:28,480
were I'm not an expert in the
547
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:30,879
politics uh What uh what funny about
548
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:33,599
that is two years exactly two sorry two
549
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:37,120
weeks after that letter we got another
550
00:25:33,599 --> 00:25:43,000
letter a new letter from the Republican
551
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:46,879
side of the Congress and there we read
552
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:50,159
that if we give out any
553
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:52,080
data according to the previous request
554
00:25:50,159 --> 00:25:56,799
we would be in violation of the US
555
00:25:52,079 --> 00:25:58,879
Constitution so we got two letters that
556
00:25:56,798 --> 00:26:01,679
said whatever we do
557
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:04,240
would be violating the US Constitution
558
00:26:01,679 --> 00:26:06,559
in a way that was my understanding of
559
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,120
this letters uh from the same
560
00:26:06,558 --> 00:26:11,480
legislative body both from the US
561
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:14,199
Congress yes so how do you respond to
562
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:16,599
that
563
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:20,679
well the same way we respond to most
564
00:26:16,599 --> 00:26:23,398
such requests we decided to ignore them
565
00:26:20,679 --> 00:26:25,759
because it's such a complicated matter
566
00:26:23,398 --> 00:26:28,398
related to internal politics in the US
567
00:26:25,759 --> 00:26:30,000
we don't want to take any if you I
568
00:26:28,398 --> 00:26:32,719
believe this strongly if you ignore your
569
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:35,640
problems most of them do go away it's
570
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:38,679
very true it is very no it says it but
571
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:41,840
it's true um that's amazing have you
572
00:26:38,679 --> 00:26:45,240
ever had demands that you can't
573
00:26:41,839 --> 00:26:48,759
ignore well it it depends unreasonable
574
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:51,159
demands so I would say the largest
575
00:26:48,759 --> 00:26:54,398
pressure towards telegram is not coming
576
00:26:51,159 --> 00:26:57,000
from governments uh it's coming from
577
00:26:54,398 --> 00:26:59,359
Apple and Google huh so when it comes to
578
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:03,119
freedom of speech those two platforms
579
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:07,678
they could basically censor whatever is
580
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,678
you can read access on your
581
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:13,119
smartphones so I mean do you run the
582
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:16,200
risk of being thrown out of their stores
583
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:18,759
exactly that's what they make very clear
584
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:22,480
that if we fail to comply with the
585
00:27:18,759 --> 00:27:24,839
guidelines so they call it uh telr could
586
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:27,200
be removed from the
587
00:27:24,839 --> 00:27:29,278
stores well that would be not a small
588
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,960
thing for you right well it's not W be a
589
00:27:29,278 --> 00:27:34,000
small thing for us because obviously a
590
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:37,000
big chunk of the world population will
591
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:39,079
lose access to available tool that
592
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:42,398
they're using every day but you know it
593
00:27:39,079 --> 00:27:43,678
will not also be a small thing for them
594
00:27:42,398 --> 00:27:46,038
I mean there
595
00:27:43,679 --> 00:27:49,679
should I I believe there there must be
596
00:27:46,038 --> 00:27:51,119
find some compromise in such cases but
597
00:27:49,679 --> 00:27:52,960
Apple and Google are not very
598
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:56,319
compromising when it comes to the
599
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:59,440
guidelin if they believe some content is
600
00:27:56,319 --> 00:28:01,678
against their rules they will see to it
601
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:05,080
that all the apps that are distributed
602
00:28:01,679 --> 00:28:05,840
through their uh stores comply with
603
00:28:05,079 --> 00:28:08,678
these
604
00:28:05,839 --> 00:28:10,278
rules are any of those rules or do you
605
00:28:08,679 --> 00:28:12,759
interpret any of those rules do you
606
00:28:10,278 --> 00:28:15,640
believe any of them to be
607
00:28:12,759 --> 00:28:19,319
political in
608
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:21,679
nature some of them but it's not the
609
00:28:19,319 --> 00:28:25,558
rules it's the application of the rules
610
00:28:21,679 --> 00:28:28,720
the rules themselves they're pretty
611
00:28:25,558 --> 00:28:32,359
General right so
612
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:35,519
there must be no violence discrimination
613
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:37,759
public uh publicly available I don't
614
00:28:35,519 --> 00:28:40,519
know child abuse materials it's hard to
615
00:28:37,759 --> 00:28:43,200
disagree with that yes uh but then when
616
00:28:40,519 --> 00:28:47,440
they start to apply those rules
617
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:51,720
sometimes we are not agreeing with with
618
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:53,919
their interpretations and we try to uh
619
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:57,720
you get back to Apple or Google whoever
620
00:28:53,919 --> 00:29:00,320
it is and say look we think you got it
621
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:03,679
wrong we think actually this
622
00:29:00,319 --> 00:29:05,599
is legitimate way of people expressing
623
00:29:03,679 --> 00:29:07,600
their opinions and sometimes they do
624
00:29:05,599 --> 00:29:09,558
agree to their credit sometimes they
625
00:29:07,599 --> 00:29:11,759
disagree and we still have to take some
626
00:29:09,558 --> 00:29:14,240
content down at least in the version of
627
00:29:11,759 --> 00:29:16,119
telegram that it distributed through
628
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:19,159
that
629
00:29:16,119 --> 00:29:20,918
platforms so there are a bunch of a
630
00:29:19,159 --> 00:29:23,120
number of conflicts going on around the
631
00:29:20,919 --> 00:29:25,799
world right now and that may
632
00:29:23,119 --> 00:29:28,398
accelerate so would you expect that the
633
00:29:25,798 --> 00:29:29,839
number of Demands and the intensity of
634
00:29:28,398 --> 00:29:32,479
those demands the Persistence of those
635
00:29:29,839 --> 00:29:35,319
demands would increase as the wars
636
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:37,720
become more
637
00:29:35,319 --> 00:29:40,200
intense let's see I'm really hopeful
638
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,880
that the past is is behind us I want to
639
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:45,600
be
640
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:50,880
optimistic um I think now we reached a
641
00:29:45,599 --> 00:29:54,480
point where uh politicians and societies
642
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:57,880
know what to expect from social media
643
00:29:54,480 --> 00:30:02,240
platforms and where there uh you know
644
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:05,278
the red lines are yes uh we also learned
645
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:08,480
much more about the requirements coming
646
00:30:05,278 --> 00:30:11,359
from both them and Google
647
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:13,839
slapple so and our users get better
648
00:30:11,359 --> 00:30:17,000
educated as well what what is allowed it
649
00:30:13,839 --> 00:30:19,439
was not allowed so I don't necessarily
650
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:22,599
believe that things are going to get
651
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:25,278
worse it does seem like the red line for
652
00:30:22,599 --> 00:30:27,519
for governments is allowing organized
653
00:30:25,278 --> 00:30:29,880
opposition to their rule that's what you
654
00:30:27,519 --> 00:30:31,960
saw in Russia with nval and and the
655
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:34,278
Ukraine crisis in 2014 that's what you
656
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:37,759
saw from that Democratic member of
657
00:30:34,278 --> 00:30:39,480
Congress after January 6th 2020
658
00:30:37,759 --> 00:30:42,839
definitely there's a p pattern here
659
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:46,159
telgram has been used by protesters in
660
00:30:42,839 --> 00:30:49,278
places like Hong Kong yes barus
661
00:30:46,159 --> 00:30:52,360
Kazakhstan even in Barcelona back in the
662
00:30:49,278 --> 00:30:56,519
day yes so it's it's it's been a tool
663
00:30:52,359 --> 00:30:59,038
for Theos to a large extent but it
664
00:30:56,519 --> 00:31:02,278
doesn't really matter whether it's
665
00:30:59,038 --> 00:31:05,278
opposition or the ruling party that is
666
00:31:02,278 --> 00:31:09,798
using tou for us we apply the rules
667
00:31:05,278 --> 00:31:11,440
equally to all sides we don't uh become
668
00:31:09,798 --> 00:31:13,158
prejudiced in this way it's not that we
669
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,840
are rooting for the opposition or We are
670
00:31:13,159 --> 00:31:18,559
rooting for the ruling party of it's not
671
00:31:15,839 --> 00:31:21,720
that we don't care but we think it's
672
00:31:18,558 --> 00:31:24,278
important to uh have this platform that
673
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,639
is neutral to all voices because we
674
00:31:24,278 --> 00:31:29,359
believe
675
00:31:25,638 --> 00:31:32,879
that the competition of different ideas
676
00:31:29,359 --> 00:31:36,199
can result in progress and a better
677
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:38,679
world for everyone that's um in start
678
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:42,399
contrast to say Facebook which has said
679
00:31:38,679 --> 00:31:43,919
in public you know we tip the scale in
680
00:31:42,398 --> 00:31:45,638
favor of this or that movement and this
681
00:31:43,919 --> 00:31:48,200
or that country all far from the west
682
00:31:45,638 --> 00:31:50,638
and far from Western media attention but
683
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:53,679
they've said that what do you think of
684
00:31:50,638 --> 00:31:56,839
that tech companies choosing
685
00:31:53,679 --> 00:31:59,038
governments well I think that's one of
686
00:31:56,839 --> 00:32:02,240
the reasons why we ended up here in the
687
00:31:59,038 --> 00:32:04,119
UAE out of all places right so you you
688
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:07,519
don't want to be geopolitically aligned
689
00:32:04,119 --> 00:32:11,398
you don't want to select the winners in
690
00:32:07,519 --> 00:32:12,960
any of this uh political fights and
691
00:32:11,398 --> 00:32:15,558
that's why you have to be in a neutral
692
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:20,600
place but I think Facebook in particular
693
00:32:15,558 --> 00:32:23,480
has uh a lot of uh reasons apart from
694
00:32:20,599 --> 00:32:27,480
being based in the US for doing what
695
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:30,480
they're doing uh I I think every app and
696
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:33,440
platform plays its own role and we
697
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:36,480
believe that Humanity does need a
698
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:39,600
neutral platform like telegram uh that
699
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,839
would be respectful to people's privacy
700
00:32:39,599 --> 00:32:43,240
and
701
00:32:40,839 --> 00:32:45,119
freedoms maybe the mo from a political
702
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:47,638
perspective it seems like the most
703
00:32:45,119 --> 00:32:50,119
provocative thing telegram does is offer
704
00:32:47,638 --> 00:32:53,199
something called channels which seem
705
00:32:50,119 --> 00:32:55,918
sort of readymade for organizing groups
706
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,798
of people can you explain to viewers who
707
00:32:55,919 --> 00:32:58,919
aren't familiar with them what a
708
00:32:56,798 --> 00:33:02,200
telegram channel is
709
00:32:58,919 --> 00:33:06,320
yes so telegram channel is a one too
710
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:09,919
many broadcast tool that allows people
711
00:33:06,319 --> 00:33:13,038
to uh quickly disseminate any message to
712
00:33:09,919 --> 00:33:16,080
millions of people so there's a Channel
713
00:33:13,038 --> 00:33:19,200
people subscribe to it it's a one-way
714
00:33:16,079 --> 00:33:22,960
communication meaning a channel can be
715
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:26,000
used by say a president or a head of
716
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:29,159
state and uh everybody else will not be
717
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:30,880
able to send a message to the president
718
00:33:29,159 --> 00:33:32,639
but the president will be able to send a
719
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,919
message to all of the people who
720
00:33:32,638 --> 00:33:39,038
subscribe to his channel yes or her
721
00:33:34,919 --> 00:33:42,159
channel so the point here is uh channels
722
00:33:39,038 --> 00:33:45,200
are so easy to use and they're so deeply
723
00:33:42,159 --> 00:33:47,960
integrated in the messaging user
724
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:50,639
interface that they became extremely
725
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:53,278
popular so you receive it like a text
726
00:33:50,638 --> 00:33:55,479
exactly so it's it's a very familiar
727
00:33:53,278 --> 00:33:58,398
form for a lot of people and since we
728
00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:02,599
launched launch channels 8 years ago I
729
00:33:58,398 --> 00:34:04,918
believe uh a few other apps popular apps
730
00:34:02,599 --> 00:34:07,359
followed in our footsteps and copied
731
00:34:04,919 --> 00:34:10,679
that feature as well not nearly as
732
00:34:07,359 --> 00:34:14,480
advanced was we have but it shows that
733
00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:18,000
it's a really uh high quality and
734
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:20,320
demanded feature that the world
735
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,199
needs I think it's and you don't have to
736
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,440
answer any of these questions if you
737
00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:26,279
don't want if it's too personal but um
738
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,878
you're the owner you you own it and it's
739
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:31,960
very unusual in fact I've never seen it
740
00:34:28,878 --> 00:34:34,679
um to have a large business like this
741
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,918
owned by one person why didn't you take
742
00:34:34,679 --> 00:34:37,599
and you could have cashed in on private
743
00:34:35,918 --> 00:34:40,078
Equity money along the way but you
744
00:34:37,599 --> 00:34:43,000
didn't why didn't
745
00:34:40,079 --> 00:34:46,119
you well that's true as of now till was
746
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:49,599
100% owned by myself which is like I
747
00:34:46,119 --> 00:34:54,119
said quite uh unusual I've never heard
748
00:34:49,599 --> 00:34:54,879
of that before the the reason I tried to
749
00:34:54,119 --> 00:34:58,838
you
750
00:34:54,878 --> 00:35:00,319
know stay away from Ben Capital money at
751
00:34:58,838 --> 00:35:02,679
least the early stages of our
752
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:07,039
development is because we wanted to be
753
00:35:02,679 --> 00:35:10,078
independent we knew that our mission and
754
00:35:07,039 --> 00:35:14,639
our goals not necessarily consistent
755
00:35:10,079 --> 00:35:17,599
with the goals of uh funds that could be
756
00:35:14,639 --> 00:35:20,519
investing into us and also for me it was
757
00:35:17,599 --> 00:35:23,000
never about money right so I have a few
758
00:35:20,519 --> 00:35:26,159
hundred million dollars in my bank
759
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:28,079
account or in Bitcoin since 10 years ago
760
00:35:26,159 --> 00:35:33,759
and uh I don't do anything anything with
761
00:35:28,079 --> 00:35:38,119
it I don't own any like real estate Jets
762
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:40,240
or Yachts I don't think those uh this
763
00:35:38,119 --> 00:35:42,800
lifestyle is for me I like to focus on
764
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,799
what we are doing uh with Tel you don't
765
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:47,359
own
766
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:50,160
anything like big assets You Don't Own
767
00:35:47,358 --> 00:35:55,920
no big assets an island in Hawaii or no
768
00:35:50,159 --> 00:35:57,920
no no no land no real estate nothing why
769
00:35:55,920 --> 00:36:00,519
well because for me my number number one
770
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:04,599
priority in life is my freedom and once
771
00:36:00,519 --> 00:36:07,800
you start buying things first it will
772
00:36:04,599 --> 00:36:09,440
tie you down to a physical location in
773
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,760
my view it's my personal view I don't
774
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:14,079
have nothing against people who are
775
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:15,920
buying real estate but in my personal
776
00:36:14,079 --> 00:36:18,519
view it would be like this for me and
777
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:21,880
the second reason is I like to stay
778
00:36:18,519 --> 00:36:25,679
focused on what we do at telegram so I
779
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:28,240
know that if I buy a house I I buy a jet
780
00:36:25,679 --> 00:36:32,879
something like that I would be spending
781
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:34,439
time on trying to make it nice and yeah
782
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,079
this will require a lot of time and
783
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:39,400
effort would you go with leather seats
784
00:36:36,079 --> 00:36:42,400
or velvet seats exactly and you're not
785
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:44,838
even going to choose yes for me I would
786
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:47,519
rather make decisions that would
787
00:36:44,838 --> 00:36:50,279
influence how a billion people
788
00:36:47,519 --> 00:36:52,920
communicate rather than choosing the
789
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,920
color of seats in the house that only I
790
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:57,680
and my relatives probably bunch of my
791
00:36:54,920 --> 00:37:00,280
friends will see
792
00:36:57,679 --> 00:37:01,919
interesting and you didn't take cuz I I
793
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:04,280
just want I just have to say it a third
794
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:07,200
time haven't seen this before you
795
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:09,040
obviously were famous as a young man as
796
00:37:07,199 --> 00:37:10,679
a company Builder and entrepreneur and
797
00:37:09,039 --> 00:37:13,159
so you could have really taken a lot of
798
00:37:10,679 --> 00:37:15,078
money and you didn't because you didn't
799
00:37:13,159 --> 00:37:17,480
want to be
800
00:37:15,079 --> 00:37:19,480
controlled I just didn't see any reason
801
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:22,800
to do that you know I had enough money
802
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:25,559
to get by well to be completely Fair
803
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:29,720
tgram did takes outside money we issued
804
00:37:25,559 --> 00:37:31,960
bonds 3 years ago so we rais debt uh and
805
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:34,598
that was
806
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:37,480
uh and and before that we had a
807
00:37:34,599 --> 00:37:40,920
cryptocurrency project that also raised
808
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:44,920
some funds so there were instances where
809
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:47,440
we raised outside uh funding but uh when
810
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:49,159
it comes to company's Equity yeah you
811
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,720
didn't give up ownership we didn't give
812
00:37:49,159 --> 00:37:54,639
anyone ownership or voting control or
813
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:56,919
anything like that because we also
814
00:37:54,639 --> 00:37:59,879
believe in efficiency I think that
815
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:04,000
having my myself as the sole owner
816
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:05,640
director and product manager for this uh
817
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:08,039
extensive period of time and the
818
00:38:05,639 --> 00:38:10,358
company's development allowed us to move
819
00:38:08,039 --> 00:38:12,838
faster and be how could you be the only
820
00:38:10,358 --> 00:38:15,559
product manager are you still the only
821
00:38:12,838 --> 00:38:18,000
product manager in the company exactly I
822
00:38:15,559 --> 00:38:22,039
still come up with all most of the
823
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:24,719
features uh I still work directly with
824
00:38:22,039 --> 00:38:27,279
every engineer every designer who is
825
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:28,838
implementing these features um you know
826
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:32,079
I'm running this company because I enjoy
827
00:38:28,838 --> 00:38:35,318
it I'm the only product manager because
828
00:38:32,079 --> 00:38:37,920
I think this is the way I can
829
00:38:35,318 --> 00:38:40,480
contribute how big is your HR
830
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,440
department zero well you could say it's
831
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,159
me
832
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,838
and because the way we are engineer no
833
00:38:44,159 --> 00:38:48,480
no you need a big HR department you
834
00:38:45,838 --> 00:38:52,440
don't think you don't Suffer Without
835
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:55,838
one we in a way decentralized that we
836
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:58,800
started a platform where we host
837
00:38:55,838 --> 00:39:01,119
contests for engine Engineers it's
838
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:03,560
actually contest.com we have the
839
00:39:01,119 --> 00:39:06,280
separate uh platform for that and we
840
00:39:03,559 --> 00:39:08,000
select the best of the best Engineers as
841
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:11,560
a result of the
842
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:15,358
competitions that we organize we hold
843
00:39:11,559 --> 00:39:17,719
them every like month or two months so
844
00:39:15,358 --> 00:39:20,358
after a series of these competitions we
845
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:24,879
select the best of the best of the best
846
00:39:20,358 --> 00:39:27,880
and they then maybe could join our team
847
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:30,000
which is just about 30 Engineers so it's
848
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:33,920
it's really compact the team super
849
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:36,159
efficient it's like a a Navy sealed team
850
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:40,880
and uh uh this is how we operate we
851
00:39:36,159 --> 00:39:42,799
don't need HR department to find uh
852
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:45,599
super talented
853
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:47,000
Engineers why doesn't everyone do this I
854
00:39:45,599 --> 00:39:49,160
look at some of these tech companies or
855
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,880
Elon Musk famously when he showed up at
856
00:39:49,159 --> 00:39:51,679
Twitter I mean there were people doing
857
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:52,599
things that he didn't even know what
858
00:39:51,679 --> 00:39:54,799
they were doing and they didn't know
859
00:39:52,599 --> 00:39:56,519
what they were doing they were like
860
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,039
there was a World Peace Department and a
861
00:39:56,519 --> 00:40:00,239
foosball Department
862
00:39:58,039 --> 00:40:03,079
and why doesn't
863
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:05,519
everybody run their business like you
864
00:40:03,079 --> 00:40:08,680
well it's an interesting question I
865
00:40:05,519 --> 00:40:11,679
think it all boils down to the question
866
00:40:08,679 --> 00:40:14,960
of uh Independence anyway I asked this
867
00:40:11,679 --> 00:40:17,078
question to the predecessors of el Jack
868
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:21,358
dorsy Jack and
869
00:40:17,079 --> 00:40:24,560
um um and the his predecessor as well
870
00:40:21,358 --> 00:40:29,519
and uh what you say dick cost I his name
871
00:40:24,559 --> 00:40:30,960
and uh this Jack he told me that uh if I
872
00:40:29,519 --> 00:40:33,119
told him look you can run this company
873
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:37,720
with 20 people you don't need so many
874
00:40:33,119 --> 00:40:40,519
people here and the response was I agree
875
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:43,838
with you but if we start firing so many
876
00:40:40,519 --> 00:40:46,039
people it will make the Wall Street
877
00:40:43,838 --> 00:40:48,199
scared they will think something's very
878
00:40:46,039 --> 00:40:51,639
wrong with the company and we don't want
879
00:40:48,199 --> 00:40:54,199
to do that and that's why we got to keep
880
00:40:51,639 --> 00:40:56,519
all this uh employees around so to keep
881
00:40:54,199 --> 00:40:59,239
the stock price high he had to run it
882
00:40:56,519 --> 00:40:59,239
inefficiently
883
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,720
I mean that's what you're saying if I
884
00:41:01,679 --> 00:41:06,559
understood him correctly that's what
885
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:11,279
what but to to his to his credit El has
886
00:41:06,559 --> 00:41:13,519
to take Twitter private before he could
887
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:15,160
do all
888
00:41:13,519 --> 00:41:16,400
theorization there's I mean there's
889
00:41:15,159 --> 00:41:18,519
something sort of profound in what
890
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,200
you're saying I mean the whole point of
891
00:41:18,519 --> 00:41:21,719
a publicly traded company or one of the
892
00:41:20,199 --> 00:41:23,759
points so the public can participate in
893
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,799
the ownership of the company but also so
894
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:28,000
Outsiders can assess the operations of
895
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,359
the company and so there transparencies
896
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,318
we know how the company is run because
897
00:41:29,358 --> 00:41:33,838
it's owned by the
898
00:41:31,318 --> 00:41:36,279
public and so it would be by definition
899
00:41:33,838 --> 00:41:39,239
more efficient you would think but
900
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,400
you're saying that it's wildly less
901
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,838
efficient that you wind up with a
902
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,200
foosball department when it's publicly
903
00:41:41,838 --> 00:41:44,799
traded but when it's privately held you
904
00:41:43,199 --> 00:41:47,399
don't I mean that's kind of the opposite
905
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:49,599
of what you would think right well I
906
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:52,880
guess most tech Founders would actually
907
00:41:49,599 --> 00:41:55,680
agree that running a public
908
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:57,680
company is uh less efficient than
909
00:41:55,679 --> 00:42:00,078
running a private company because you
910
00:41:57,679 --> 00:42:02,318
have to be accountable to much more
911
00:42:00,079 --> 00:42:03,599
people there's a lot of redundancy
912
00:42:02,318 --> 00:42:06,759
bureaucracy
913
00:42:03,599 --> 00:42:09,680
involved so from a purely like
914
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,839
efficiency standpoint I would argue and
915
00:42:09,679 --> 00:42:13,879
I think a lot of people would agree with
916
00:42:10,838 --> 00:42:16,559
me that we a a public company is
917
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:20,838
suboptimal however there are other
918
00:42:16,559 --> 00:42:23,440
advantages of of uh getting listed and
919
00:42:20,838 --> 00:42:26,000
of course that is relevant when you want
920
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:28,760
to acquire other companies cash right
921
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:31,000
yes you can have access to cheap Capital
922
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:34,040
you know there's a lot of things you can
923
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:37,358
do but you don't want to do any of those
924
00:42:34,039 --> 00:42:38,960
things well not not presently definitely
925
00:42:37,358 --> 00:42:41,400
I am enjoying running my company in The
926
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:44,079
Way It Is Well who knows what the future
927
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:46,920
holds but uh as of now I think we are
928
00:42:44,079 --> 00:42:51,000
doing a great job with uh with telegram
929
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:54,440
900 million users will probably cross a
930
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:57,480
billion uh monthly active users within a
931
00:42:54,440 --> 00:43:00,119
year from now I think we're doing great
932
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,838
why would we lose this momentum right
933
00:43:00,119 --> 00:43:04,240
now can I just go back to something you
934
00:43:01,838 --> 00:43:06,960
said the at the outset you don't have an
935
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:08,479
HR department you only have 30 Engineers
936
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:11,119
working for
937
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:13,960
you you run the products you own the
938
00:43:11,119 --> 00:43:16,280
company such a tight organization but
939
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:19,440
how do you get new users if you spend
940
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:21,040
zero money for Acquisitions if you're
941
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,639
not advertising if you're not paying to
942
00:43:21,039 --> 00:43:24,838
bring people in how do you how do you do
943
00:43:22,639 --> 00:43:27,639
that how do you get to a billion for
944
00:43:24,838 --> 00:43:30,480
free because people love our product
945
00:43:27,639 --> 00:43:32,039
what we realized pretty early on is that
946
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:36,719
people are
947
00:43:32,039 --> 00:43:41,079
smart people like to use good things and
948
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:43,598
they don't like to use inferior things
949
00:43:41,079 --> 00:43:46,720
that's why whenever you have a person
950
00:43:43,599 --> 00:43:49,519
who who started to use Telegram and
951
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:52,199
they're there for a while and they start
952
00:43:49,519 --> 00:43:53,719
to discover all the features all their
953
00:43:52,199 --> 00:43:56,799
uh you know the speed the security the
954
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:58,598
pro everything that we have uh they
955
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,440
don't want want to go back and they
956
00:43:58,599 --> 00:44:02,480
start inviting their friends
957
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,720
recommending them you should really
958
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:07,039
check this app out because it's so much
959
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:10,039
better than everything else also because
960
00:44:07,039 --> 00:44:11,759
people realize that whatever uh
961
00:44:10,039 --> 00:44:14,079
messaging apps they're using right now
962
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:16,760
they're like five six years behind
963
00:44:14,079 --> 00:44:19,920
They're copying what we did six years
964
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:22,839
ago and that's not a you know very high
965
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:25,079
quality copy that they make of our
966
00:44:22,838 --> 00:44:26,599
features so people love quality that's
967
00:44:25,079 --> 00:44:29,079
why they move they also love the
968
00:44:26,599 --> 00:44:31,119
independent they also love the Privacy
969
00:44:29,079 --> 00:44:33,880
they love the freedom there are a lot of
970
00:44:31,119 --> 00:44:35,800
reasons why somebody would switch to
971
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,280
telegram from other apps so one of the
972
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,680
things we learned when Elon Musk bought
973
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:42,519
Twitter is that the Intel agencies not
974
00:44:39,679 --> 00:44:45,239
just us but a bunch of other countries
975
00:44:42,519 --> 00:44:47,079
The Usual Suspects um were all over the
976
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,959
company I mean they were some of them
977
00:44:47,079 --> 00:44:50,720
were present working at the company they
978
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,440
had access to the direct messages you
979
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,959
can just imagine well you know because
980
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:57,920
you run one but the wealth of data
981
00:44:54,960 --> 00:45:00,960
flowing through would be of great
982
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:03,119
interest to to governments does that
983
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:06,119
make you paranoid that you'll be
984
00:45:03,119 --> 00:45:08,920
penetrated I mean I I assume governments
985
00:45:06,119 --> 00:45:11,160
would like to know what's going on sort
986
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:13,318
of privately on telegram well there's
987
00:45:11,159 --> 00:45:16,239
definitely a lot of responsibility that
988
00:45:13,318 --> 00:45:18,719
we have on our shoulders and we I
989
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:22,919
wouldn't say we are paranoid but I think
990
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:27,039
it makes sense to stay prudent and uh
991
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:30,240
you know not being uh too accessible not
992
00:45:27,039 --> 00:45:33,318
traveling to weird places you don't
993
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:36,759
travel to weird places I hope
994
00:45:33,318 --> 00:45:40,679
not like I travel to places where I have
995
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:45,119
uh confidence that you know those places
996
00:45:40,679 --> 00:45:48,318
are uh consistent with what we do in our
997
00:45:45,119 --> 00:45:50,519
values I don't go to any of the big
998
00:45:48,318 --> 00:45:54,279
geopolitical powers of the countries
999
00:45:50,519 --> 00:45:57,719
like China or Russia or the US so uh you
1000
00:45:54,280 --> 00:46:00,400
don't go to the US I try not to I can go
1001
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:02,078
but you know it's uh too much attention
1002
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,800
like I described before yeah because at
1003
00:46:02,079 --> 00:46:06,359
some point if you run something like
1004
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,800
this you're a player in World politics I
1005
00:46:06,358 --> 00:46:10,159
mean by Def whether you want to be or
1006
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:12,039
not don't you think we definitely don't
1007
00:46:10,159 --> 00:46:16,159
want to be a player we want to be a
1008
00:46:12,039 --> 00:46:19,440
neutral platform that is impartial and
1009
00:46:16,159 --> 00:46:21,558
you know doesn't take any side but
1010
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:24,639
you're probably right there's some role
1011
00:46:21,559 --> 00:46:26,800
we have to play well not taking aside is
1012
00:46:24,639 --> 00:46:28,279
the one thing you're not allowed to do
1013
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:31,800
right right I mean aren't you required
1014
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:33,839
to take aide in the modern world I think
1015
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:36,599
that's a big problem because I think
1016
00:46:33,838 --> 00:46:40,000
that kind of
1017
00:46:36,599 --> 00:46:42,400
um attitude can result in our world
1018
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:45,559
becoming a more dangerous place because
1019
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:49,639
at the end of the day we all have to try
1020
00:46:45,559 --> 00:46:52,359
to understand each other and try to get
1021
00:46:49,639 --> 00:46:55,078
closer to each other in in terms of
1022
00:46:52,358 --> 00:46:57,358
getting to know the positions of the
1023
00:46:55,079 --> 00:46:59,079
other people even those they're
1024
00:46:57,358 --> 00:47:01,799
drastically different from our own
1025
00:46:59,079 --> 00:47:05,119
positions and that's how we get to some
1026
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:07,839
compromise and and move forward if we're
1027
00:47:05,119 --> 00:47:10,079
strictly divided and everybody is
1028
00:47:07,838 --> 00:47:13,078
required to take a side and we can't
1029
00:47:10,079 --> 00:47:14,839
take a side because we are this platform
1030
00:47:13,079 --> 00:47:18,880
that people should
1031
00:47:14,838 --> 00:47:22,400
use to collaborate and to find common
1032
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:24,519
ground and hopefully to move forward if
1033
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:27,800
we lose that we can end up in a much
1034
00:47:24,519 --> 00:47:30,159
more dangerous place
1035
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:33,000
how often do you intersect with the
1036
00:47:30,159 --> 00:47:34,679
National Security Agency NSA and I asked
1037
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,639
that as someone whose texts were read by
1038
00:47:34,679 --> 00:47:38,719
them so I I I know that they're very
1039
00:47:36,639 --> 00:47:39,920
active in this world um what's your
1040
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:45,519
experience
1041
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:47,519
been well I think the NSA is not uh an
1042
00:47:45,519 --> 00:47:50,358
agency that works with you directly
1043
00:47:47,519 --> 00:47:53,318
right I don't come and C you're so
1044
00:47:50,358 --> 00:47:54,920
diplomatic I love it the N is not an
1045
00:47:53,318 --> 00:47:59,119
agency that works with you directly no
1046
00:47:54,920 --> 00:48:01,119
that is true that is true true so my
1047
00:47:59,119 --> 00:48:04,280
knowledge of my interactions with the
1048
00:48:01,119 --> 00:48:06,838
NSA is very limited yes I could read
1049
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:10,599
something in the newspapers about you
1050
00:48:06,838 --> 00:48:14,000
know my phone being penetrated with
1051
00:48:10,599 --> 00:48:17,079
Pegasus or something like that I no idea
1052
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:19,760
whether it's true or not but this is the
1053
00:48:17,079 --> 00:48:23,920
only source of information I can have
1054
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:26,880
about me personally being of interest to
1055
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:28,760
any of uh you know the secret agencies
1056
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:31,400
but you've got to think even though you
1057
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:33,839
haven't done an interview in seven years
1058
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:35,200
is uh you know you're it's it's widely
1059
00:48:33,838 --> 00:48:36,679
known by people who are interested who
1060
00:48:35,199 --> 00:48:38,439
you are in your role in this I mean
1061
00:48:36,679 --> 00:48:39,960
you've got to think you're under just
1062
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:43,599
crazy amounts of surveillance wouldn't
1063
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:47,000
you think that's probably true you know
1064
00:48:43,599 --> 00:48:51,079
it would sound funny but I assume by
1065
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:53,318
default that the devices I use I are
1066
00:48:51,079 --> 00:48:55,599
compromised yes because you you you will
1067
00:48:53,318 --> 00:48:57,318
still use an iPhone or an Android phone
1068
00:48:55,599 --> 00:48:58,838
and uh
1069
00:48:57,318 --> 00:49:02,358
now After experiencing what I
1070
00:48:58,838 --> 00:49:04,400
experienced in the US I have very
1071
00:49:02,358 --> 00:49:08,480
limited faith
1072
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:10,519
in platforms developed in the US from a
1073
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:13,719
security standpoint yes privacy
1074
00:49:10,519 --> 00:49:17,280
standpoint exactly yeah because in a lot
1075
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:19,838
of countries ours America included
1076
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,280
spying is described as quote security
1077
00:49:19,838 --> 00:49:23,239
you're looking at it from the other
1078
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,119
perspective you're assuming that
1079
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:27,879
security is privacy and my right not to
1080
00:49:25,119 --> 00:49:30,480
be spied upon but big governments
1081
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:32,318
describe spying upon you as security
1082
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:36,679
thank you for this
1083
00:49:32,318 --> 00:49:38,440
correction um so last question do you
1084
00:49:36,679 --> 00:49:40,558
since you've done this since you were in
1085
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:43,000
college and you've been at the center of
1086
00:49:40,559 --> 00:49:45,119
it where do you see it going and by this
1087
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:47,358
I mean the free exchange the private
1088
00:49:45,119 --> 00:49:49,960
exchange of information between
1089
00:49:47,358 --> 00:49:51,759
Sovereign individuals human beings
1090
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:54,199
nonslaved
1091
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:56,280
when I was a child that was possible
1092
00:49:54,199 --> 00:49:57,719
it's increasingly difficult are we
1093
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,000
moving toward a world where there just
1094
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:01,679
is no private
1095
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:05,159
communication or do you think that
1096
00:50:01,679 --> 00:50:08,960
privacy will remain despite say AI or
1097
00:50:05,159 --> 00:50:08,960
just massive increases in computing
1098
00:50:09,079 --> 00:50:16,680
power well this depends on the extent of
1099
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:18,680
privacy uh when you say privacy will
1100
00:50:16,679 --> 00:50:21,039
remain do you mean that we have absolute
1101
00:50:18,679 --> 00:50:22,879
privacy now I don't think that we do and
1102
00:50:21,039 --> 00:50:25,239
I think the world is becoming less
1103
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:27,240
amenable government's becoming less
1104
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:29,279
tolerant of privacy it's clearly the
1105
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:31,000
trend because they have more
1106
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:34,559
technological
1107
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:39,079
power but will they win I guess will
1108
00:50:34,559 --> 00:50:42,079
there ever be a way to preserve privacy
1109
00:50:39,079 --> 00:50:45,480
you know can is there a place for it I
1110
00:50:42,079 --> 00:50:48,798
believe in that I an optimist I think
1111
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:51,719
some new secure Hardware you know
1112
00:50:48,798 --> 00:50:55,039
communication devices will be created uh
1113
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:56,959
in a similar way that now we have uh
1114
00:50:55,039 --> 00:51:02,400
Hardware wallets to store your
1115
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:04,240
cryptocurrency yes maybe we'll have
1116
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:06,760
secure
1117
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:11,558
communication devices you know to send
1118
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:14,480
messages or do voice calls it's possible
1119
00:51:11,559 --> 00:51:19,720
uh I do believe that you know the world
1120
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:22,639
develops in cycles and uh if things seem
1121
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:25,118
to go in one direction today doesn't
1122
00:51:22,639 --> 00:51:27,480
seem doesn't mean that tomorrow they
1123
00:51:25,119 --> 00:51:29,720
will go the same direction
1124
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:34,119
I also feel that at some point
1125
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:37,959
people will get tired of uh what they
1126
00:51:34,119 --> 00:51:42,400
experienc today and they would decide to
1127
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:45,920
you know move to some other direction so
1128
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:48,880
it's I I seen it after covid for example
1129
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:51,400
so during Co you had a lot of
1130
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:53,480
restrictions also on social media
1131
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:57,079
platforms you most social media
1132
00:51:53,480 --> 00:52:00,838
platforms you were not really allowed
1133
00:51:57,079 --> 00:52:06,039
to express doubt in relation to
1134
00:52:00,838 --> 00:52:08,679
lockdowns or vaccines or masks and uh at
1135
00:52:06,039 --> 00:52:11,838
some point I could feel that the
1136
00:52:08,679 --> 00:52:14,440
sentiment changed people started to feel
1137
00:52:11,838 --> 00:52:16,880
very very tired and sometimes
1138
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:19,480
angry with the fact that they were not
1139
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:23,880
allowed to express their opinions
1140
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:26,519
particularly after the end of uh the
1141
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:28,920
pandemic uh PE a lot of people start
1142
00:52:26,519 --> 00:52:28,920
started to
1143
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:35,960
be even more skeptical about the
1144
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:38,000
restrictions in their freedoms that they
1145
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:41,480
experienced during the pandemic what was
1146
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:44,000
your position as a business owner uh
1147
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:46,639
during covid did you must have come
1148
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:49,559
under pressure to censor opinions on
1149
00:52:46,639 --> 00:52:52,558
lockdowns vaccines masking what how did
1150
00:52:49,559 --> 00:52:54,680
you respond so our position is pretty
1151
00:52:52,559 --> 00:52:56,960
straightforward we're a neutral platform
1152
00:52:54,679 --> 00:52:59,118
we were helping governments to spread
1153
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:01,519
their message about the lockdowns and
1154
00:52:59,119 --> 00:53:04,160
masks and accidents we had dozens of
1155
00:53:01,519 --> 00:53:06,639
governments who we really helped uh you
1156
00:53:04,159 --> 00:53:09,679
know de simulate their information but
1157
00:53:06,639 --> 00:53:12,199
we also didn't want to restrict the
1158
00:53:09,679 --> 00:53:16,159
voices that were critical of all these
1159
00:53:12,199 --> 00:53:19,639
measures we thought it made sense for
1160
00:53:16,159 --> 00:53:23,039
this opposing views to collide and
1161
00:53:19,639 --> 00:53:25,719
hopefully you know see some truth come
1162
00:53:23,039 --> 00:53:29,279
out of those debates and of course we
1163
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:31,358
got critic for that but uh looking back
1164
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:33,240
I think it was the right strategy so you
1165
00:53:31,358 --> 00:53:35,519
allowed people to voice doubts about the
1166
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:36,639
so-called science throughout the
1167
00:53:35,519 --> 00:53:39,440
throughout the
1168
00:53:36,639 --> 00:53:41,960
experience exactly during the pandemic
1169
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:45,358
we I think were one of the few or maybe
1170
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:51,119
the only major social media platform
1171
00:53:45,358 --> 00:53:52,838
that didn't uh take down accounts that
1172
00:53:51,119 --> 00:53:55,440
were
1173
00:53:52,838 --> 00:53:57,239
skeptical uh in relation to some of
1174
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:59,240
these measures so why why are you not
1175
00:53:57,239 --> 00:54:01,598
famous and treated as a hero in the
1176
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:01,598
United
1177
00:54:01,679 --> 00:54:06,598
States shouldn't there be a parade in
1178
00:54:03,838 --> 00:54:08,279
your honor if you're the only social
1179
00:54:06,599 --> 00:54:10,280
media platform not to take down what
1180
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:12,559
turned out to be true or in some to some
1181
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,760
extent true more certainly more true
1182
00:54:12,559 --> 00:54:16,920
than the CDC
1183
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:19,799
guidance I mean why why why weren't you
1184
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:23,440
times Man of the Year why isn't your
1185
00:54:19,798 --> 00:54:23,440
face on the
1186
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:28,680
nickel I'm not an expert in us
1187
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:36,879
politics but to to be fair you have now
1188
00:54:33,159 --> 00:54:41,639
uh Twitter or a yeah that uh seemingly
1189
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:44,079
becoming more Pro freedom of speech uh
1190
00:54:41,639 --> 00:54:46,440
and uh I think it is it's it's it's it's
1191
00:54:44,079 --> 00:54:50,798
a great development and back to our
1192
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:52,599
earlier discussion about how all of this
1193
00:54:50,798 --> 00:54:55,119
is developing in
1194
00:54:52,599 --> 00:54:56,920
Cycles things are starting to change it
1195
00:54:55,119 --> 00:54:59,760
seems
1196
00:54:56,920 --> 00:55:02,318
so do you I mean but in in some ways
1197
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:05,240
Elon buying
1198
00:55:02,318 --> 00:55:08,838
Twitter sort of ends your
1199
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:10,919
Monopoly but you still greet it
1200
00:55:08,838 --> 00:55:13,599
cheerfully you're still in favor of it
1201
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:16,358
definitely we we love the fact that uh
1202
00:55:13,599 --> 00:55:18,000
Elan bought Twitter we thought it was a
1203
00:55:16,358 --> 00:55:21,279
great development for a number of
1204
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:24,679
reasons first reason is just Innovation
1205
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:27,480
you could see ax doing trying a lot of
1206
00:55:24,679 --> 00:55:30,199
things some of them will turn out to be
1207
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:31,960
mistakes some of them will work but at
1208
00:55:30,199 --> 00:55:34,358
least they're trying to innovate that's
1209
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:36,559
something we didn't have outside of
1210
00:55:34,358 --> 00:55:39,358
telegram and a few other companies in
1211
00:55:36,559 --> 00:55:44,039
this industry for the last 10 years what
1212
00:55:39,358 --> 00:55:47,239
you saw from the big players they would
1213
00:55:44,039 --> 00:55:49,319
rather copy The Proven models the
1214
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:50,838
features that apps like
1215
00:55:49,318 --> 00:55:54,719
telegram
1216
00:55:50,838 --> 00:55:57,199
launch and just scale them on a larger
1217
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:59,318
audience this features would be a pale
1218
00:55:57,199 --> 00:56:02,199
will be pale pale reflections of what we
1219
00:55:59,318 --> 00:56:03,880
built but this was the way those
1220
00:56:02,199 --> 00:56:07,838
companies operate still
1221
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:10,798
operate what x is trying to do is uh in
1222
00:56:07,838 --> 00:56:13,400
line what we're building you know
1223
00:56:10,798 --> 00:56:15,440
Innovation trying different things uh
1224
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:18,960
trying to give power to the
1225
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:21,318
creators uh trying to get the ecosystem
1226
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:24,159
economy going those are all exciting
1227
00:56:21,318 --> 00:56:25,880
things and uh I think we need more
1228
00:56:24,159 --> 00:56:30,000
companies like that I was I don't know
1229
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:31,920
if it's good for Humanity that um like Y
1230
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:33,400
is spending so much time on Twitter
1231
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:36,358
making it better but it's definitely
1232
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:39,280
good for the social media
1233
00:56:36,358 --> 00:56:41,679
industry when you see the other the guys
1234
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:43,880
who run these other companies like what
1235
00:56:41,679 --> 00:56:45,318
do you do know them and do you ever talk
1236
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,880
about freedom of speech I mean if you're
1237
00:56:45,318 --> 00:56:48,000
running you're running to Mark not you
1238
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,000
don't have to answer of course if you
1239
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:51,039
don't want but like if you're running to
1240
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:54,639
Mark
1241
00:56:51,039 --> 00:56:57,319
Zuckerberg yeah I we met with Mark more
1242
00:56:54,639 --> 00:57:00,798
than 10 years ago I was still running VK
1243
00:56:57,318 --> 00:57:03,519
and I told them I told Mark and his
1244
00:57:00,798 --> 00:57:06,400
colleagues about
1245
00:57:03,519 --> 00:57:09,159
our uh app platform we launched an app
1246
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:11,160
platform I think it was 2009 at VK they
1247
00:57:09,159 --> 00:57:12,239
were very interested it was an
1248
00:57:11,159 --> 00:57:14,038
interesting
1249
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:18,318
meeting
1250
00:57:14,039 --> 00:57:22,760
um they ended up trying to copy not what
1251
00:57:18,318 --> 00:57:26,358
we did but what I told them we did uh it
1252
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:28,280
was funny um I remember him asking
1253
00:57:26,358 --> 00:57:33,880
whether we were planning
1254
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:36,960
to uh start something on a global uh
1255
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:40,400
basis on the global Lael level like go
1256
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:43,679
uh for international expansion I said no
1257
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:47,760
and I asked him whether he was going to
1258
00:57:43,679 --> 00:57:50,598
try to capture more of my domestic
1259
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:53,240
Market where I was working on and he
1260
00:57:50,599 --> 00:57:57,039
said no and we both ended up doing
1261
00:57:53,239 --> 00:57:58,358
exactly that in like two or three weeks
1262
00:57:57,039 --> 00:58:00,280
that was so I'm thinking I shouldn't go
1263
00:57:58,358 --> 00:58:02,519
into business with Mark
1264
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:05,798
Zuckerberg
1265
00:58:02,519 --> 00:58:05,798
uh no
1266
00:58:06,358 --> 00:58:11,598
comment pav J that thank you very much
1267
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:13,079
it a great conversation I appreciate and
1268
00:58:11,599 --> 00:58:15,960
we're rooting for you thank you for
1269
00:58:13,079 --> 00:58:15,960
having me of
1270
00:58:17,119 --> 00:58:21,720
course free speech is bigger than any
1271
00:58:19,719 --> 00:58:23,439
one person or any one organization
1272
00:58:21,719 --> 00:58:25,279
societies are defined by what they will
1273
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:28,318
not permit what we're watching is the
1274
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:30,400
total inversion of virtue hey it's
1275
00:58:28,318 --> 00:58:31,759
Tucker Carlson the internet is crowded
1276
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:34,240
with interesting things that don't
1277
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:36,359
really matter on TCN we attempt to bring
1278
00:58:34,239 --> 00:58:39,558
you interesting things that actually do
1279
00:58:36,358 --> 00:58:42,880
matter and a lot of them interviews long
1280
00:58:39,559 --> 00:58:45,798
form and short videos documentaries you
1281
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:49,599
can find all of it on tuckercarlson.com
1282
00:58:45,798 --> 00:58:49,599
and we hope you will
96707
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