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From the beginning, I
was telling my comrades,
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my colleagues, the war
cabinet, the Prime Minister
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that this is going to be
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a multi-month war of attrition.
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The creditors will asphyxiate us
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and keep on asphyxiating us
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until we reach the deadline.
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There had to be certain
repayments by the Greek state
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to the International Monetary Fund
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and to the European Central
Bank, money we didn't have.
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So either we agreed to
borrow it from them in order
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to pretend that we were repaying them
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or there had to be a debt
restructure, which is what
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the purpose of our election was.
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And only at the very last
moment when they realised
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that we're not going to back
down, would they come to us
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with an honourable agreement.
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That was of the essence... a capacity
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to withstand the pressure,
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however great it was, up
until the very last moment
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because the very last moment would be
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the only moment of truth.
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Everything before that would be
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a labyrinth of deception.
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The Troika were adamant
that Tsípras should not be able
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to present himself as a prime minister
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who managed to get a deal with them.
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They wanted him to be presented as somebody
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that was completely and
utterly ritually humiliated.
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So every time he said yes to their demands,
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they asked for something more.
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The pressure upon me to resign had reached
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its heights.
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I didn't resign because I
knew they would not allow him
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to surrender without
dragging him through the mud,
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without closing down the banks, without
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imposing a tremendous cost upon the people
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of Greece for having resisted.
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And as long as I maintained
in my heart of hearts
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the slightest subjective
probability of belief that,
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when he's in the mud, he would turn around
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and say, "Yanis, okay,
you were right. Let's do it.
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Let's now confront them.
Let's now resist them.
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Let's now say no to them..."
I stayed and I didn't resign.
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On the 21st of June 2015,
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he made his last ditch attempt
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to surrender.
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Again, they wouldn't accept
his white flag. At that point,
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he himself recognized
that he's in an impasse.
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So, he called a referendum
saying to the people of Greece,
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"Well, this is the ultimatum
that the Troika is giving us.
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Yes or no?"
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I am very negatively surprised
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by today's decisions by
the Greek government.
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They have apparently rejected
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the last proposals on the
table from the three institutions
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and on that negative basis
have proposed to parliament
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to have a referendum with, again,
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a negative advice to the Greek people.
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We will hear from the Greek
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minister today in our meeting,
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and then talk about future consequences.
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The purpose of what
we are doing altogether is
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to actually restore the stability
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of the economy in Greece.
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The Greek people on
fifth July will be asked
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to agree or not to agree
with the institution's proposal.
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That leaves open the
possibility of negotiations
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through the night and
the day, and the night
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and the day ahead of us,
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that would improve
the institution's proposal.
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In my view, the tragedy was
that he called the referendum
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with the intention of losing it,
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whereas I fought that referendum
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because I wanted us to win it.
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Both of us shared the belief
that we were going to lose it
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because the moment
the referendum was called,
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the ATMs ran out of cash.
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The ECB closed down
our banks in a bid through
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what I referred to at the
time as the finance minister
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of Greece, poignantly
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and willfully, as a kind
of financial terrorism.
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Because there's nothing more terroristic
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than closing down the ATMs of the people
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before they go on a vote, in order
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to extract from them the vote you want
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as a creditor of that nation.
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Now, what is terrorism? It's the pursuit
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of political agendas by means
of inspiring fear in people,
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mind numbing fear. Well, the choice
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that we were given, accept
a non-viable agreement
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or we'll shut your banks,
can be classified as such.
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It was a pure case of financial terrorism.
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There was no economic reason
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to close down the
banks except, effectively,
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to blackmail the people
of Greece to vote in favour
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of the Troika deal, in favour
of the Troika ultimatum.
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With the media and the
television screens blasting out
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at people in their living rooms
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propaganda that if they
vote "no" to the ultimatum
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of the Troika, Armageddon
will hit, and demonising me
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and the government and
anyone who opposes the Troika.
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We thought that this
combination in the end, would
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push the percentage of voters who
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supported us below 50%.
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I thought this was
inevitable. So did Tsípras.
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The difference was that
he wanted this to happen,
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and I was struggling
against this happening.
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Let me tell you something,
which is probably unknown.
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Ever since we declared the referendum
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and we incensed our European
partners, we had the most
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interesting proposals coming from Brussels.
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They won't be a "yes" verdict.
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I'm quite confident that the
Greek people have had enough
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of extending and pretending,
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like the rest of the world, by the way.
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Just to nail you down a little bit more -
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Please do. So, if there's a
"yes" vote come Monday night,
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you will not be finance minister.
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I will not. A banner demanding
a "no" vote appeared from
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the window of the
country's finance ministry.
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Greece's colourful,
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frequently controversial
finance minister has been warned
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by many leaving figures in
Europe that a "no" vote is a vote
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to leave the Euro.
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He resolutely rejects that.
What you're actually doing here
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is taking your country out of the Euro.
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But you can't tell people
because you know they wouldn't
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vote for it. No, no, absolutely
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not. Absolutely not.
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Our membership of the Euro is not at stake,
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whether there is a "yes" or
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or a "no", there will be
an agreement on Monday.
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The head of the Eurogroup
says that's fantasy,
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you're nowhere near an
agreement. Who's right?
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He would say that, wouldn't he?
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He really desperately wants
a "yes" vote so as to be able
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to go back to his constituency
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and to say that they managed
to humiliate our government.
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This is just petty politics.
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It's really not good for Europe.
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It's obvious that we will
see in the next day various
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forms of orchestrated attempts towards...
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economic aggression.
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It cannot be described in any other way,
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but I don't think that this will induce
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fear in the population.
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I think that it will induce protests.
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It's our time to say "no",
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because they want the whole our land.
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They want our freedom.
They want our rights.
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They want our properties.
They want our homeland.
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I think the Greek people will fight back.
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We're not populists. We're
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trying to do the right thing by the people.
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More a six day scramble than a campaign.
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But the passion being felt on
both sides is without question.
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25,000, maybe more,
in Athens Central Square
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for the final "no" rally.
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My hope was that a good referendum result,
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a courageous cry by the Greek people,
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would make it impossible
for Alexis Tsípras, my comrade
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and Prime Minister, to betray them,
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to go back on them, to say no to them.
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I wanted to give the Greek people the
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opportunity to write history.
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In the end, 62% courageously,
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magnificently, voted against the Troika.
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It seems you can push people too far.
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A five-year-long depression,
the impoverishment of a nation,
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and finally the Greeks have
said "Όχι", "no." Enough.
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All the talk of the economic damage
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that would be caused, the
Armageddon that was sure
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to follow, did not deter them.
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For five years, they've
swallowed economic medicine
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that has made their condition worse.
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They're not going to take any more of it.
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That night, I allowed myself
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to enter the prime ministerial residence
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at around midnight
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once the result was out, convinced, it was
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mind over matter,
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if you want, that it can't be.
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Alexis must now honor that 62%.
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I walked into Maximus residence,
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the prime ministerial
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residence, together with Danae, my wife.
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It was like entering a freezer.
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Suddenly, I felt like a foreign body.
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I could tell that these
were people in mourning,
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not in celebration.
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And I remember when the final result
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was flashed on the
television screen in the main
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living area of the residence,
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that I jumped up and punched
the air, and then turned around
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and realised I was the
only one doing it in the room.
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Finally, when I entered
his office, I could see
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that he was distraught,
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that he was mourning our victory.
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It was a given
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that the conversation would not end
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well. That night,
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my simple message to him was,
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"The people out there wrote history.
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Are we going to honour it?"
And he started giving me all
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sorts of excuses.
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He even mentioned a word
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that in Greek history resonates awfully.
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The name is "Γουδή".
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Γουδή is a suburb of Athens
where there was an execution
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of government ministers
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after 1922, effectively an
allusion to being executed.
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I turned around and said, "Fantastic.
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Let them make our day.
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Imagine if we get executed
for doing the right thing.
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We will become legends, Alexis."
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He offered
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me all sorts of different positions
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00:16:01,412 --> 00:16:03,092
in the government. I turned them all down.
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And he said to me,
"it's time to surrender."
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I disagreed, and I resigned.
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A shock announcement
after a triumphant victory.
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Greek finance minister Yanis
Varoufakis is stepping down.
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He's expected to remain in the Syriza party
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and is extremely popular at home.
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But as Tsípras's government
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and Eurozone leaders meet this week,
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both sides will be hoping a
fresh face on the negotiating
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table will bring new
impetus to bailout talks.
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00:18:42,762 --> 00:18:45,039
Yanis Varoufakis resigned
earlier this morning.
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Does that make it any more
likely that Greece is going
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to be able to reach a deal
with its European creditors?
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Yes. I believe European leaders
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00:18:54,472 --> 00:18:57,932
and Eurogroup officials are relieved that
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Mr Varoufakis will no longer be
representing Greece at the meetings.
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Varoufakis's origins in the center
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of politics convinced
some in Syriza that he was,
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00:19:08,012 --> 00:19:09,772
as they put it, a neoliberal,
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00:19:10,152 --> 00:19:12,852
but they soon found out
otherwise. In the negotiations,
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00:19:13,402 --> 00:19:16,412
Varoufakis was the toughest in
favour of a strong deal for Greece,
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00:19:16,632 --> 00:19:20,212
and the most prepared of all
the ministers to, if necessary,
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default on Greece's debts
and exit the Eurozone.
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I never imagined what happened was going
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to happen. Any regrets
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as you look back on what
happened during that period, as to
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00:19:37,092 --> 00:19:38,399
how it was handled with creditors?
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00:19:38,482 --> 00:19:41,452
Well, plenty, a myriad
of regrets. We failed.
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Do you think you messed up at all?
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There were mistakes, of course.
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It takes incredible obstinacy to argue
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that one has not made mistakes, especially
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during a five-month period
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of extremely intense
negotiations against creditors
254
00:20:00,892 --> 00:20:03,639
who were not particularly
interested in having a rational
255
00:20:03,722 --> 00:20:06,552
bargaining session, a rational negotiation.
256
00:20:06,732 --> 00:20:08,729
We made mistakes.
There's no doubt about that.
257
00:20:08,812 --> 00:20:11,032
And I hold myself responsible
for a number of them.
258
00:20:12,792 --> 00:20:15,412
If you could do it all again,
what would you change?
259
00:20:19,342 --> 00:20:22,612
There is an infinity of things
that I would've changed.
260
00:20:23,552 --> 00:20:25,372
But what should I have done differently,
261
00:20:26,022 --> 00:20:30,799
given what I knew? When
we were elected, the clash
262
00:20:30,882 --> 00:20:32,322
with the creditors would've happened
263
00:20:32,512 --> 00:20:36,172
by default within four weeks, which is
264
00:20:37,132 --> 00:20:38,089
a very short space of time
265
00:20:38,172 --> 00:20:39,809
once you're elected. You have four weeks
266
00:20:39,892 --> 00:20:41,212
before Armageddon hits.
267
00:20:43,432 --> 00:20:48,199
Now, my policy was to extend
268
00:20:48,282 --> 00:20:51,212
that period until June, at least,
269
00:20:51,392 --> 00:20:55,612
or July, to give ourselves
another four months during which
270
00:20:56,472 --> 00:21:00,972
to try to establish the ground for
271
00:21:01,192 --> 00:21:03,412
an honorable compromise with the creditors.
272
00:21:03,942 --> 00:21:06,972
These four months, instead of
being four months during which
273
00:21:07,512 --> 00:21:08,589
the Prime Minister and myself
274
00:21:08,672 --> 00:21:11,412
and the rest of the war cabinet
were getting more united,
275
00:21:12,282 --> 00:21:15,412
more prepared and bonded
276
00:21:16,612 --> 00:21:19,532
together in such a way
as to maximise our chances
277
00:21:19,632 --> 00:21:21,332
of overcoming,
278
00:21:22,582 --> 00:21:24,669
those four months were used by
279
00:21:24,752 --> 00:21:28,372
Mrs. Merkel to pry Tsípras away from me,
280
00:21:30,432 --> 00:21:33,332
to co-opt him and to prepare him
281
00:21:34,072 --> 00:21:38,249
for the very humiliating
process of gradual capitulation,
282
00:21:38,332 --> 00:21:41,372
which led to the surrender
of that following summer.
283
00:21:45,792 --> 00:21:50,572
We had weapons that we
could use. We didn't use them.
284
00:21:51,622 --> 00:21:54,169
There was a part of our debt, 27 billion,
285
00:21:54,252 --> 00:21:55,849
which is not a very large part of the debt,
286
00:21:55,932 --> 00:21:59,012
but it was a significant part
of the debt that was parked
287
00:22:00,432 --> 00:22:02,772
on the books of the European Central Bank.
288
00:22:03,572 --> 00:22:08,109
But that 27 billion was
Greek government debt
289
00:22:08,192 --> 00:22:11,072
written in Greek law, which
means that I had the capacity
290
00:22:11,172 --> 00:22:14,489
as the Minister of Finance
to restructure it, to postpone
291
00:22:14,572 --> 00:22:16,512
by 20 years its repayment.
292
00:22:17,212 --> 00:22:18,389
And then the ECB would have
293
00:22:18,472 --> 00:22:20,872
to contest my decision in a Greek court,
294
00:22:21,212 --> 00:22:22,749
and I would've won, I can assure.
295
00:22:22,832 --> 00:22:24,359
We should remind people that Greek courts
296
00:22:24,442 --> 00:22:25,632
don't act very fast.
297
00:22:26,372 --> 00:22:29,589
Yes, and that that's the one
occasion where this delay
298
00:22:29,672 --> 00:22:31,752
in inefficiency would be a godsend.
299
00:22:33,292 --> 00:22:37,189
And the reason why this
was an important weapon was
300
00:22:37,272 --> 00:22:40,909
because the only reason
why the Euro still exists today is
301
00:22:40,992 --> 00:22:42,349
because Mario Draghi, the president
302
00:22:42,432 --> 00:22:44,472
of the European Central
Bank, has saved the Euro,
303
00:22:44,892 --> 00:22:46,909
and he saved it through a kind
304
00:22:46,992 --> 00:22:49,352
of quantitative easing
like you had here in Britain,
305
00:22:49,452 --> 00:22:52,949
you still have. The problem
that Draghi faced was
306
00:22:53,032 --> 00:22:55,409
that the Central Bank of
Germany, which belongs to the,
307
00:22:55,492 --> 00:22:58,672
is part and parcel of the
European Central Bank,
308
00:23:00,172 --> 00:23:01,512
was constantly on his case,
309
00:23:01,882 --> 00:23:03,632
constantly trying to undermine him.
310
00:23:04,342 --> 00:23:06,989
They even took Draghi
311
00:23:07,072 --> 00:23:09,629
and the European Central
Bank to the Constitutional Court
312
00:23:09,712 --> 00:23:13,712
of Germany in Karlsruhe,
effectively asking the German judges,
313
00:23:13,852 --> 00:23:16,432
the German Central bank
is asking the German judges
314
00:23:16,972 --> 00:23:19,552
to rule that the Central Bank,
through quantitative easing,
315
00:23:20,052 --> 00:23:22,909
was effectively violating
the German Constitution.
316
00:23:22,992 --> 00:23:26,309
And if the German
judges agreed, effectively
317
00:23:26,392 --> 00:23:28,392
that would stop QE in Europe
318
00:23:28,492 --> 00:23:30,152
and that would end the Eurozone.
319
00:23:31,292 --> 00:23:32,512
Why am I telling you this?
320
00:23:32,982 --> 00:23:35,432
Because the Central Bank's defence
321
00:23:36,172 --> 00:23:38,679
in the Constitutional Court
of Germany was, "Yes,
322
00:23:38,762 --> 00:23:40,832
we're buying debt against our charter
323
00:23:41,012 --> 00:23:44,352
but don't worry about it
because it'll never be written down
324
00:23:44,812 --> 00:23:46,292
and it will never be restructured."
325
00:23:46,952 --> 00:23:48,889
So, if we restructured that small amount,
326
00:23:48,972 --> 00:23:53,212
relatively small amount,
that effectively would be
327
00:23:53,792 --> 00:23:56,372
adding fuel to the case of the Bundesbank,
328
00:23:56,752 --> 00:23:59,172
and the whole of the
Eurozone would be in jeopardy.
329
00:23:59,282 --> 00:24:00,972
That was a major weapon we had.
330
00:24:01,432 --> 00:24:03,452
And we had an agreement
with the Prime Minister
331
00:24:03,552 --> 00:24:05,792
and with the inner cabinet,
what I call the war cabinet,
332
00:24:05,962 --> 00:24:09,729
that we would use it the moment the war
333
00:24:09,812 --> 00:24:10,889
of attrition reached the stage
334
00:24:10,972 --> 00:24:12,812
where they would shut
down our banking sector.
335
00:24:13,382 --> 00:24:15,282
But when they did shut down our banks,
336
00:24:15,422 --> 00:24:17,549
and I reminded my colleagues, my comrades,
337
00:24:17,632 --> 00:24:20,239
that we had agreed we
would unleash that little weapon
338
00:24:20,322 --> 00:24:23,802
that we had, they
vetoed it and they said no.
339
00:24:26,492 --> 00:24:29,002
After the surrender, what happened?
340
00:24:30,402 --> 00:24:34,442
A litany of small surrenders
341
00:24:35,102 --> 00:24:39,522
and abuses of logic against
an already suffering population.
342
00:24:42,382 --> 00:24:44,079
In other words, in a country
343
00:24:44,162 --> 00:24:47,522
that was suffering a
humanitarian hunger crisis,
344
00:24:48,842 --> 00:24:52,419
VAT on food was increasing, signed
345
00:24:52,502 --> 00:24:55,962
and sealed by a
government of the radical left.
346
00:24:58,542 --> 00:25:02,109
The social democratic
governments of the 1990s,
347
00:25:02,192 --> 00:25:05,442
they had introduced a small top-up payment
348
00:25:06,342 --> 00:25:08,122
for the minimum pension.
349
00:25:08,302 --> 00:25:11,522
So, pensioners receiving
something like €200,
350
00:25:13,592 --> 00:25:15,722
well below the poverty level,
351
00:25:16,432 --> 00:25:18,722
were given a top-up of another €100.
352
00:25:20,242 --> 00:25:23,762
A government of the
radical left signed a law
353
00:25:24,752 --> 00:25:25,802
that did away with it.
354
00:25:27,822 --> 00:25:32,122
The saving was minuscule for
the budget of the government
355
00:25:32,822 --> 00:25:36,722
but the creditors were insistent on having
356
00:25:37,382 --> 00:25:39,359
the radical left government remove
357
00:25:39,442 --> 00:25:42,482
that €100 payment from
the poorest of the poor
358
00:25:43,142 --> 00:25:44,162
and elderly people.
359
00:25:45,882 --> 00:25:49,522
Pensions had already
been cut 12 times, by 42%,
360
00:25:50,062 --> 00:25:51,362
before 2015.
361
00:25:53,462 --> 00:25:55,402
So what did they do after they surrendered?
362
00:25:56,202 --> 00:25:58,642
A further 20% reduction.
363
00:26:00,062 --> 00:26:02,802
But the plot gets worse
and thickens further.
364
00:26:04,782 --> 00:26:09,162
The whole property
bundle of the Greek state,
365
00:26:09,532 --> 00:26:13,322
which includes archeological
sites, national treasures,
366
00:26:14,592 --> 00:26:18,482
beaches, ports,
367
00:26:19,122 --> 00:26:20,482
airports, railways,
368
00:26:21,892 --> 00:26:24,242
every single public asset,
369
00:26:24,872 --> 00:26:27,799
it's including water, including
electricity, mountains,
370
00:26:27,882 --> 00:26:31,599
even the Lycabettus Hill in
Athens where I take my dog
371
00:26:31,682 --> 00:26:34,682
for a walk every morning, every asset
372
00:26:35,822 --> 00:26:37,002
was bundled together
373
00:26:37,982 --> 00:26:41,962
and inserted into something
that they called "the Superfund."
374
00:26:43,272 --> 00:26:46,772
The Superfund has one objective,
375
00:26:48,572 --> 00:26:52,409
a fire sale. To sell
everything, to sell as much of it
376
00:26:52,492 --> 00:26:54,249
as possible and take the money
377
00:26:54,332 --> 00:26:55,492
and give it to the creditors.
378
00:26:59,572 --> 00:27:01,892
I do not believe that in
the history of humanity,
379
00:27:03,752 --> 00:27:07,829
you ended up with this kind of transfer
380
00:27:07,912 --> 00:27:12,692
of property rights from one nation to
381
00:27:13,562 --> 00:27:17,852
another entity without having
first being defeated at war.
382
00:28:42,072 --> 00:28:43,252
It is part of human nature
383
00:28:44,312 --> 00:28:45,712
that when you've committed a crime,
384
00:28:46,432 --> 00:28:50,129
when you've damaged
other people, it is quite natural,
385
00:28:50,212 --> 00:28:52,909
I understand that, that
you would like to think
386
00:28:52,992 --> 00:28:54,032
that everybody's like you.
387
00:28:56,132 --> 00:28:58,112
And the moment you
manage to convert someone
388
00:28:58,692 --> 00:28:59,872
who is against those acts
389
00:29:00,452 --> 00:29:02,472
to actually carry them
out, you feel better.
390
00:29:03,292 --> 00:29:06,072
So, from the Troika's perspective,
391
00:29:07,132 --> 00:29:09,232
having a government being elected in Greece
392
00:29:09,572 --> 00:29:13,712
of the radical left, which
they managed to turn...
393
00:29:14,342 --> 00:29:17,272
take somebody like
Tsípras, who made his career
394
00:29:18,132 --> 00:29:19,469
by saying, "No,
395
00:29:19,552 --> 00:29:21,592
Mrs. Merkel, you're going
to have to leave our land
396
00:29:21,852 --> 00:29:24,292
and you're going to have to
allow us to restore our dignity."
397
00:29:25,052 --> 00:29:29,112
Go back, Merkel, go back.
398
00:29:30,452 --> 00:29:34,629
To have him in the end
implement every single one
399
00:29:34,712 --> 00:29:37,912
of the policies that he
was elected to oppose,
400
00:29:38,852 --> 00:29:41,172
and also doing a mea culpa
401
00:29:41,952 --> 00:29:46,172
and being the greatest apologist
for that failed programme.
402
00:29:47,442 --> 00:29:51,452
That is a wet dream for every torturer,
403
00:29:52,112 --> 00:29:54,852
for every oppressor, for every tyrant.
404
00:30:02,192 --> 00:30:05,449
The Syriza government,
once it broke with our contract
405
00:30:05,532 --> 00:30:09,292
with our voters, was
bathed in glory by the media.
406
00:30:12,432 --> 00:30:17,332
The lure of that kind
of credibility is the worst
407
00:30:18,262 --> 00:30:20,132
enemy of progressive politics.
408
00:30:24,512 --> 00:30:26,972
You were at the height of Greek power.
409
00:30:28,152 --> 00:30:32,252
Oh, not power. Maybe I
was in the center of the frame
410
00:30:32,872 --> 00:30:35,849
but I was the finance
minister of a bankrupt country.
411
00:30:35,932 --> 00:30:37,892
That doesn't make you
particularly powerful, Amy,
412
00:30:38,192 --> 00:30:40,972
It makes you a target,
413
00:30:41,942 --> 00:30:43,612
especially a target of the establishment.
414
00:30:44,482 --> 00:30:48,342
So what awaited you in the coming years?
415
00:30:50,492 --> 00:30:52,222
Nothing angers
416
00:30:52,842 --> 00:30:55,539
and concentrates the mind
of the oligarchy more than
417
00:30:55,622 --> 00:30:58,902
that feeling, which is
completely unfamiliar to them,
418
00:30:59,322 --> 00:31:00,742
of not remaining in control.
419
00:31:01,812 --> 00:31:05,472
The 62% of the Greeks who
voted against them, that "no"
420
00:31:06,212 --> 00:31:07,352
had to be discredited.
421
00:31:08,202 --> 00:31:12,472
Those people had to be
made not only to regret
422
00:31:13,642 --> 00:31:16,952
their choices, but also to denounce it,
423
00:31:17,612 --> 00:31:19,792
and to denounce anyone
that was associated with it.
424
00:31:21,372 --> 00:31:25,592
By a historical accident, I
was chosen to be the person
425
00:31:26,062 --> 00:31:27,352
that the oligarchy targeted.
426
00:31:28,712 --> 00:31:32,512
I had to be brought down
symbolically in order to represent
427
00:31:33,132 --> 00:31:36,749
the complete collapse of
428
00:31:36,832 --> 00:31:39,029
what they call themselves
"the Greek Spring."
429
00:31:39,112 --> 00:31:41,672
You never lectured or hectored
your colleagues in the Eurozone?
430
00:31:41,832 --> 00:31:42,749
Absolutely not. But I can tell
431
00:31:42,832 --> 00:31:43,392
you what I did.
432
00:31:43,572 --> 00:31:45,269
But a lot of people said you did.
I'm exceptionally proud of what
433
00:31:45,352 --> 00:31:46,269
I did. A lot of people said you did.
434
00:31:46,352 --> 00:31:46,872
Well, that -
435
00:31:47,232 --> 00:31:49,072
A lot of people said you were the key
436
00:31:49,552 --> 00:31:51,509
obstacle - bring them here so
that they can actually confront me.
437
00:31:51,592 --> 00:31:54,072
I need to confront my accusers, Tim.
438
00:31:54,262 --> 00:31:57,312
According to you, everybody's
been lying about what took place.
439
00:31:57,512 --> 00:31:58,230
Bring somebody here in front of me -
440
00:31:58,313 --> 00:31:59,569
about what took place, except you.
441
00:31:59,652 --> 00:32:00,939
- bring somebody here in front of me.
442
00:32:01,022 --> 00:32:02,712
It's not credible, Yanis Varoufakis,
443
00:32:03,062 --> 00:32:05,712
that everybody has lied
about this except you.
444
00:32:06,062 --> 00:32:08,429
Well, you are - that's
stretching in credibility, isn't it?
445
00:32:08,512 --> 00:32:10,272
- you are interviewing me.
446
00:32:10,912 --> 00:32:12,952
I can only tell you what I experienced.
447
00:32:13,412 --> 00:32:15,312
"We would desist from doing anything
448
00:32:15,422 --> 00:32:17,392
that was against Greece's interest."
449
00:32:17,492 --> 00:32:20,309
That's what you wrote. And then
you signed an agreement that you
450
00:32:20,392 --> 00:32:22,112
now say is -
451
00:32:22,452 --> 00:32:23,370
Tim, I didn't.
452
00:32:23,453 --> 00:32:24,569
I resigned on the ninth.
453
00:32:24,652 --> 00:32:26,559
But you said a "no" vote
would strengthen your
454
00:32:26,642 --> 00:32:28,112
bargaining position.
455
00:32:28,632 --> 00:32:30,669
Yes, provided we still wanted to bargain.
456
00:32:30,752 --> 00:32:32,109
But it didn't. Because
we didn't want to bargain
457
00:32:32,192 --> 00:32:34,689
after that. My prime minister decided
458
00:32:34,772 --> 00:32:36,792
to surrender on the
night of the referendum.
459
00:32:38,622 --> 00:32:42,612
They were daily fake news stories that were
460
00:32:43,272 --> 00:32:47,892
so abundantly untrue that
they confirmed brilliantly
461
00:32:48,152 --> 00:32:52,572
Joseph Goebbels' dictum that
if you want awful propaganda,
462
00:32:53,232 --> 00:32:57,769
if you want a gigantic
lie to stick, you have
463
00:32:57,852 --> 00:33:01,652
to make sure that the
lie is out of proportion,
464
00:33:02,042 --> 00:33:04,492
that it is humongous in size
465
00:33:05,152 --> 00:33:07,372
and that you repeat it constantly.
466
00:33:08,402 --> 00:33:09,812
This is exactly what they did.
467
00:33:10,112 --> 00:33:12,852
But of course, this is nothing personal.
468
00:33:13,082 --> 00:33:15,372
This is what an oligarchy does when an
469
00:33:15,532 --> 00:33:16,612
oligarchy gets threatened.
470
00:33:16,742 --> 00:33:18,412
Thank you for your talk, Mr. Varoufakis,
471
00:33:18,552 --> 00:33:21,172
and I have to say content-wise,
472
00:33:21,452 --> 00:33:23,492
I sympathise with you very much
473
00:33:23,912 --> 00:33:27,889
but I read the reconstruction
474
00:33:27,972 --> 00:33:28,890
of the Guardian last week,
475
00:33:28,973 --> 00:33:30,373
which I'm sure you've read as well.
476
00:33:30,512 --> 00:33:32,269
I'd like to confront you with a few quotes,
477
00:33:32,352 --> 00:33:33,492
two very brief ones.
478
00:33:34,072 --> 00:33:36,812
The first one is,
"Varoufakis had done nothing
479
00:33:36,912 --> 00:33:39,412
but exasperate his
fellow finance ministers."
480
00:33:39,802 --> 00:33:41,212
It's true. And second of all...
481
00:33:50,922 --> 00:33:53,332
content-wise, you may or may not be right,
482
00:33:53,792 --> 00:33:56,489
but everyone just seems to hate you and -
483
00:33:56,572 --> 00:33:57,572
No, that's not true.
484
00:33:58,032 --> 00:34:00,372
Don't overdo it. Look...
485
00:34:00,512 --> 00:34:04,092
- excuse me, sir, isn't the
reason that you lost the battle,
486
00:34:04,242 --> 00:34:07,142
the battle that was so important, isn't it
487
00:34:07,242 --> 00:34:09,179
not because it was
totally impossible, but also
488
00:34:09,262 --> 00:34:11,662
because of the way
you personally interacted
489
00:34:11,892 --> 00:34:13,639
with everyone, made only enemies
490
00:34:13,722 --> 00:34:15,729
and that was the reason
that in the end they just weren't
491
00:34:15,812 --> 00:34:17,422
able and willing to listen to you?
492
00:34:17,682 --> 00:34:19,179
Wasn't that one of the huge problems?
493
00:34:19,262 --> 00:34:21,422
Well, the answer to this
very question is very simple:
494
00:34:22,042 --> 00:34:25,622
No. I had very good relationships.
495
00:34:30,262 --> 00:34:32,309
I had a very good relationship
personally with all of them,
496
00:34:32,392 --> 00:34:36,369
especially with Wolfgang
Schäuble. With Dijsselbloem,
497
00:34:36,452 --> 00:34:39,732
I didn't have a relationship,
either positive or negative.
498
00:34:40,312 --> 00:34:43,039
He confirms this. My relations
499
00:34:43,122 --> 00:34:46,332
with my interlocutors in
Brussels, in Berlin, Paris,
500
00:34:48,002 --> 00:34:49,612
were at a personal level, very good,
501
00:34:50,232 --> 00:34:53,089
mostly. Especially with the
German Finance Minister
502
00:34:53,172 --> 00:34:54,692
after their first one or two meetings,
503
00:34:54,922 --> 00:34:56,009
they became very cordial
504
00:34:56,092 --> 00:34:59,929
and very warm. With the
French, perfect. With the head
505
00:35:00,012 --> 00:35:01,252
of the European Central Bank
506
00:35:01,432 --> 00:35:05,852
and the number two, Benoît Cœuré, splendid.
507
00:35:08,632 --> 00:35:11,572
The problem Greece's
creditors had with me was
508
00:35:12,192 --> 00:35:14,132
one and very simple.
509
00:35:15,522 --> 00:35:18,732
They could see in me,
someone that would rather die
510
00:35:19,562 --> 00:35:22,989
than sign on the dotted line of another
511
00:35:23,072 --> 00:35:24,772
extend-and-pretend bailout loan.
512
00:35:28,592 --> 00:35:30,652
The pressure which was inordinate,
513
00:35:30,842 --> 00:35:34,092
that was being asserted upon
me, was just a walk in the park
514
00:35:34,572 --> 00:35:36,052
compared to what my dad went through.
515
00:35:37,832 --> 00:35:39,449
My dad ended up in a concentration camp
516
00:35:39,532 --> 00:35:41,532
because he was refusing
to put his signature
517
00:35:41,622 --> 00:35:43,172
where he was being told to put it.
518
00:35:45,352 --> 00:35:47,369
So when I was in Brussels and in Frankfurt
519
00:35:47,452 --> 00:35:51,869
and in Berlin, and I was being confronted
520
00:35:51,952 --> 00:35:56,649
by this immense pressure,
I caught myself on a couple
521
00:35:56,732 --> 00:35:58,772
of occasions thinking "if only they knew."
522
00:36:01,752 --> 00:36:05,852
Yes. So what kept you? Because it was hard.
523
00:36:06,672 --> 00:36:08,569
Yes. If you signed you could get
524
00:36:08,652 --> 00:36:09,570
out. Yes, I was,
525
00:36:09,653 --> 00:36:11,292
I would be free,
526
00:36:13,512 --> 00:36:15,892
but I never did it.
527
00:36:17,812 --> 00:36:21,532
I believed in my own spirit.
528
00:36:26,312 --> 00:36:27,692
Do you regret not signing?
529
00:36:28,552 --> 00:36:32,772
No, never. Never.
530
00:36:33,292 --> 00:36:36,212
I resisted. Never.
531
00:36:44,282 --> 00:36:46,772
They would have these big sacks that
532
00:36:46,882 --> 00:36:49,412
were originally used to carry potatoes,
533
00:36:50,392 --> 00:36:52,652
and they would put him
in there together with a cat.
534
00:36:54,652 --> 00:36:57,692
A cat. Tied them and throw it in the sea.
535
00:36:58,542 --> 00:37:01,882
So the cat would be
drowning and tear up his face.
536
00:37:03,382 --> 00:37:05,419
And then they would pull him
out and say, "Will you sign?"
537
00:37:05,502 --> 00:37:08,402
"No." Do it again, with a cat.
538
00:37:09,752 --> 00:37:14,002
Some occasions, with
snakes. They had to endure
539
00:37:15,902 --> 00:37:18,882
serial killings.
540
00:37:20,102 --> 00:37:23,399
So they would line them
up on top of a cliff next
541
00:37:23,482 --> 00:37:27,602
to the sea, overlooking the waves
542
00:37:28,382 --> 00:37:30,762
and they would line ten of them up
543
00:37:31,022 --> 00:37:33,119
and they would go to the first one
544
00:37:33,202 --> 00:37:34,159
and say, "Okay, will you sign?"
545
00:37:34,242 --> 00:37:37,842
and say, "no." Shot in the head.
546
00:37:38,232 --> 00:37:41,602
Some would break and sign, the rest died.
547
00:37:42,292 --> 00:37:44,432
So, that was one of the favorite
548
00:37:45,572 --> 00:37:47,112
tortures,
549
00:37:47,242 --> 00:37:49,632
which is not torture, just murder.
550
00:37:51,342 --> 00:37:55,232
Do you have a message for
the young people of today?
551
00:37:55,582 --> 00:37:57,752
Yes. They must try always.
552
00:37:58,612 --> 00:38:00,192
You must try hard.
553
00:38:14,412 --> 00:38:15,602
After the referendum,
554
00:38:16,182 --> 00:38:18,762
how did the public respond to the betrayal?
555
00:38:25,812 --> 00:38:29,542
Most people failed to
recognize what a motivating force
556
00:38:30,252 --> 00:38:31,342
dignity can be
557
00:38:32,162 --> 00:38:34,782
and a project for restoring it.
558
00:38:36,732 --> 00:38:41,469
Unemployment, not being able to fend
559
00:38:41,552 --> 00:38:43,549
for oneself, to put food on the table,
560
00:38:43,632 --> 00:38:44,792
to look after their children,
561
00:38:45,302 --> 00:38:46,732
these are all scourges.
562
00:38:47,912 --> 00:38:52,469
But the worst effect that
they have on the human soul is
563
00:38:52,552 --> 00:38:56,569
that they deny one a
sense of dignity, a sense
564
00:38:56,652 --> 00:38:58,352
of autonomy, a sense of pride.
565
00:38:59,922 --> 00:39:02,662
The beauty of that
566
00:39:03,042 --> 00:39:06,062
Syntagma Square gathering
on the 3rd of July in 2015
567
00:39:07,442 --> 00:39:09,519
was disenfranchised, powerless
568
00:39:09,602 --> 00:39:10,822
people got together
569
00:39:11,442 --> 00:39:14,919
and, by the act of getting
together, they managed
570
00:39:15,002 --> 00:39:17,742
to feel dignity flooding
back into their souls.
571
00:39:18,982 --> 00:39:20,242
So, when three days later,
572
00:39:20,622 --> 00:39:22,562
the prime minister
overthrew the people's will
573
00:39:23,262 --> 00:39:27,562
and took that energy, that
dignity restoration project,
574
00:39:28,022 --> 00:39:30,322
and shoved it into the dustbin of history
575
00:39:30,782 --> 00:39:35,059
by converting their courageous "no" into
576
00:39:35,142 --> 00:39:38,132
an undignified "yes",
577
00:39:39,232 --> 00:39:43,009
the very same people who were elated on
578
00:39:43,092 --> 00:39:44,692
that night were distraught.
579
00:39:45,372 --> 00:39:48,732
I could see people on street
corners bumping into each other
580
00:39:49,592 --> 00:39:53,012
and without speaking, they would hug
581
00:39:53,232 --> 00:39:55,972
and cry as a result of the indignity
582
00:39:56,312 --> 00:39:57,452
of the moment of surrender.
583
00:39:59,052 --> 00:40:00,932
This contrast is going
to stay with me forever.
584
00:40:01,402 --> 00:40:04,102
And if I'm motivated by anything, it is
585
00:40:04,202 --> 00:40:05,862
by the disappointment
586
00:40:05,962 --> 00:40:09,602
and rage at the dying
of that particular light,
587
00:40:10,622 --> 00:40:13,042
and an urgency for restoring it.
44558
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