Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated:
1
00:00:02,052 --> 00:00:04,272
Larry Summers is a very smart economist
2
00:00:05,362 --> 00:00:08,272
who is also a systems
man, an establishment man.
3
00:00:09,412 --> 00:00:13,232
He rose to be the treasury
secretary of Bill Clinton
4
00:00:13,812 --> 00:00:17,432
and implemented the complete
unshackling of Wall Street.
5
00:00:18,552 --> 00:00:20,909
Interestingly, he's also the man
6
00:00:20,992 --> 00:00:23,312
that President Obama brought back in
7
00:00:24,012 --> 00:00:25,992
to the administration to fix things.
8
00:00:26,182 --> 00:00:29,752
When I sat down with him that late night at
9
00:00:29,952 --> 00:00:34,549
a particular Washington
DC hotel bar, he said, "Yanis,
10
00:00:34,632 --> 00:00:38,432
there are two kinds of
politicians: the outsiders,
11
00:00:39,192 --> 00:00:41,192
who are quite happy to get on a soapbox
12
00:00:41,292 --> 00:00:43,169
and tell the world what they believe in,
13
00:00:43,252 --> 00:00:45,552
but very soon they get
jettisoned by the system
14
00:00:45,972 --> 00:00:47,712
and in the end, make no difference.
15
00:00:48,612 --> 00:00:49,712
And there are the insiders.
16
00:00:50,252 --> 00:00:52,309
And the golden rule of the
insiders is you never turn
17
00:00:52,392 --> 00:00:54,229
against another insider
and you use whatever
18
00:00:54,312 --> 00:00:58,392
information you get internally
within the establishment.
19
00:00:58,862 --> 00:01:01,912
What kind of politician are
you?" That was his question.
20
00:02:27,812 --> 00:02:29,472
In my first meeting with Michel Sapin,
21
00:02:29,772 --> 00:02:33,312
the French finance
minister, we spent an hour
22
00:02:34,022 --> 00:02:35,152
like brothers-in-arms.
23
00:02:36,292 --> 00:02:38,352
He agreed with everything I put forward,
24
00:02:38,692 --> 00:02:41,152
as ideas about the debt,
about the Greek programme,
25
00:02:41,412 --> 00:02:42,672
the ending of austerity.
26
00:02:42,932 --> 00:02:47,392
It was a meeting of souls, minds,
27
00:02:48,012 --> 00:02:49,392
ideologists.
28
00:02:50,532 --> 00:02:53,712
And then we step out for the
traditional press conference.
29
00:02:55,532 --> 00:02:58,609
We need a short space of time during which
30
00:02:58,692 --> 00:03:00,662
to table our proposals.
31
00:03:01,442 --> 00:03:02,582
And then he starts speaking.
32
00:03:07,562 --> 00:03:10,782
"My obligation to my creditors
33
00:03:11,122 --> 00:03:14,102
to keep on imposing the
austerian programme."
34
00:03:15,382 --> 00:03:18,302
I thought, what? As we were walking away,
35
00:03:19,082 --> 00:03:21,779
he became affable
again. And I turned around
36
00:03:21,862 --> 00:03:25,142
and said, "who are you and
what have you done to my Michel?"
37
00:03:25,882 --> 00:03:29,342
All he said was, "Yanis,
you must understand.
38
00:03:30,212 --> 00:03:32,272
France is not what it used to be."
39
00:03:58,602 --> 00:03:59,949
Is Mr. Varoufakis
40
00:04:00,032 --> 00:04:01,352
someone you can do business with?
41
00:04:01,702 --> 00:04:03,129
Well, he's clearly an able
42
00:04:03,212 --> 00:04:05,472
and intelligent representative
of the Greek government.
43
00:04:22,332 --> 00:04:26,512
As Dr Schäuble said, we
didn't reach an agreement.
44
00:04:26,932 --> 00:04:29,072
It was never on the cards that we would.
45
00:04:30,542 --> 00:04:33,842
We didn't even agree to
disagree from where I'm standing.
46
00:04:34,072 --> 00:04:35,319
What we are suggesting
47
00:04:35,402 --> 00:04:38,439
to our European partners
is you may not like the fact
48
00:04:38,522 --> 00:04:40,922
that we were elected
because we're a left-wing party,
49
00:04:42,262 --> 00:04:45,042
but use us in the context
of a European project
50
00:04:45,582 --> 00:04:48,242
for turning a page in Greece
and turning a page in Europe.
51
00:04:49,562 --> 00:04:51,719
I don't know if and
when they run out of cash
52
00:04:51,802 --> 00:04:54,362
because I don't control the till in Athens.
53
00:04:54,552 --> 00:04:55,802
That is their responsibility.
54
00:04:56,422 --> 00:05:00,082
All that I know is that we
can only release further
55
00:05:00,622 --> 00:05:02,442
loans
56
00:05:02,752 --> 00:05:06,279
from the European funds if
there is a full agreement on the
57
00:05:06,362 --> 00:05:09,562
total package and if they
start implementing reforms.
58
00:05:10,992 --> 00:05:13,539
Good evening. The new Greek
government's not even a week
59
00:05:13,622 --> 00:05:16,082
old, but today the first major standoff.
60
00:05:16,262 --> 00:05:18,159
The country's Finance
Minister said he'll no longer
61
00:05:18,242 --> 00:05:19,679
cooperate with the Troika.
62
00:05:19,762 --> 00:05:21,919
Greece has just four weeks to find a way
63
00:05:22,002 --> 00:05:23,002
to make its repayments
64
00:05:23,262 --> 00:05:26,042
or the country will quite
simply run out of money.
65
00:05:26,902 --> 00:05:30,242
In my first Eurogroup meeting, I tried
66
00:05:31,102 --> 00:05:35,442
in my rookie speech to signal a readiness
67
00:05:35,542 --> 00:05:38,602
to compromise. To say to them that,
68
00:05:40,152 --> 00:05:43,882
"Look folks, here there is a clash
69
00:05:44,032 --> 00:05:45,522
between two different principles.
70
00:05:46,392 --> 00:05:48,002
There's the principle of continuity.
71
00:05:48,622 --> 00:05:49,659
Yes, we are a new government,
72
00:05:49,742 --> 00:05:52,599
but that does not mean that we do not have
73
00:05:52,682 --> 00:05:54,439
commitments to you." It is of
74
00:05:54,522 --> 00:05:56,869
the utmost importance
that Greece remains on
75
00:05:56,952 --> 00:05:58,172
on a path of recovery.
76
00:05:58,712 --> 00:06:03,449
"And I'm here dedicated
to working with you, sitting
77
00:06:03,532 --> 00:06:05,452
around the table for as long as it takes
78
00:06:06,112 --> 00:06:08,092
to find an honorable compromise,
79
00:06:08,432 --> 00:06:09,732
one that allows us to breathe
80
00:06:10,672 --> 00:06:14,929
and at the same time helps repay most
81
00:06:15,012 --> 00:06:16,532
of the loans to our creditors."
82
00:06:18,162 --> 00:06:20,772
This requires commitment to reform process
83
00:06:20,952 --> 00:06:22,372
and to fiscal sustainability.
84
00:06:23,512 --> 00:06:25,012
Taking unilateral steps
85
00:06:25,112 --> 00:06:28,452
or ignoring previous
arrangements is not the way forward.
86
00:06:30,792 --> 00:06:33,112
"But at the same time, there's
the principle of democracy,
87
00:06:33,322 --> 00:06:36,572
with a new mandate to
contest those agreements."
88
00:06:38,372 --> 00:06:40,572
I thought this was the
89
00:06:43,662 --> 00:06:46,492
apotheosis of moderation.
90
00:06:49,492 --> 00:06:51,929
I could see Wolfgang Schäuble,
the German finance minister,
91
00:06:52,012 --> 00:06:53,332
getting very agitated.
92
00:06:54,872 --> 00:06:59,492
He gets the floor and very quickly comes up
93
00:06:59,602 --> 00:07:00,932
with a classic line.
94
00:07:02,172 --> 00:07:06,012
"Elections cannot be allowed
to change economic policy."
95
00:07:06,672 --> 00:07:09,629
To which of course, I retorted
that this is excellent news
96
00:07:09,712 --> 00:07:12,812
for the Chinese Communist
Party because they agree.
97
00:07:16,722 --> 00:07:20,172
This Eurogroup was never
meant to settle any issues.
98
00:07:21,072 --> 00:07:22,372
I was invited...
99
00:07:23,052 --> 00:07:25,969
I was invited because I'm the new kid
100
00:07:26,052 --> 00:07:27,212
on the block, so to speak.
101
00:08:02,532 --> 00:08:07,472
The idea of Troika visits comprising
102
00:08:08,092 --> 00:08:11,189
cabals of technocrats
from the three institutions in
103
00:08:11,272 --> 00:08:13,392
lockstep walking into our ministries
104
00:08:14,132 --> 00:08:18,312
and trying to implement a
program which has failed,
105
00:08:19,012 --> 00:08:22,009
at least in the estimation
of our government,
106
00:08:22,092 --> 00:08:25,152
and, I think, of our people,
that is a thing of the past.
107
00:08:25,852 --> 00:08:30,369
It is true that we have
already wasted the last
108
00:08:30,452 --> 00:08:31,552
of our liquidity
109
00:08:32,332 --> 00:08:35,792
and we're in a very difficult situation.
110
00:08:36,092 --> 00:08:40,189
How long do you have left? It depends. You
111
00:08:40,272 --> 00:08:43,109
famously sort of recorded
some of your Eurogroup meetings
112
00:08:43,192 --> 00:08:46,469
because you wanted
113
00:08:46,552 --> 00:08:48,309
to make sure that the
briefings were accurate to
114
00:08:48,392 --> 00:08:49,752
what you had heard in the meeting.
115
00:08:50,132 --> 00:08:51,312
What's so strange about that?
116
00:08:51,592 --> 00:08:55,252
I had to report to parliament.
We want to end this.
117
00:08:55,752 --> 00:08:57,769
We want to end this. This is
not going to be a government
118
00:08:57,852 --> 00:09:01,169
that's going to fool you into believing
119
00:09:01,252 --> 00:09:02,849
that we are interested in
a reform programme just
120
00:09:02,932 --> 00:09:04,892
because we want the next loan tranche.
121
00:09:05,112 --> 00:09:07,049
You may have gathered
that we don't give a damn
122
00:09:07,132 --> 00:09:08,372
about the next loan tranche.
123
00:09:08,752 --> 00:09:12,739
We prefer to go down in flames than
124
00:09:12,822 --> 00:09:14,982
to keep extending this indignity.
125
00:09:15,292 --> 00:09:16,419
What, you were
126
00:09:16,502 --> 00:09:17,902
secretly recording conversations?
127
00:09:18,302 --> 00:09:22,062
Absolutely. You know, it
didn't happen by design.
128
00:09:22,192 --> 00:09:24,182
I go into the first meeting
129
00:09:24,322 --> 00:09:25,622
of ministers of finance.
130
00:09:26,252 --> 00:09:28,062
That was my inaugural
131
00:09:28,882 --> 00:09:30,452
Eurogroup meeting as it's called.
132
00:09:32,042 --> 00:09:33,069
At the end of that meeting,
133
00:09:33,152 --> 00:09:34,902
which was a soul-destroying meeting,
134
00:09:35,402 --> 00:09:38,942
I came out dazed, confused,
135
00:09:39,772 --> 00:09:41,479
with a threat that the banks
136
00:09:41,562 --> 00:09:44,182
of our nation would be
closed within five days.
137
00:09:45,192 --> 00:09:48,062
These are seriously stressful moments.
138
00:09:48,982 --> 00:09:50,159
I called my secretary
139
00:09:50,242 --> 00:09:54,359
and said, "Fotini, get
me a transcript of the ten-
140
00:09:54,442 --> 00:09:58,102
and-a-half hours. I would
have to inform the Cabinet,
141
00:09:58,242 --> 00:10:01,782
the Prime Minister, and I have to confess
142
00:10:01,932 --> 00:10:03,212
that after ten and a half hours.
143
00:10:03,482 --> 00:10:06,342
Of course I remember what
had happened, but not verbatim.
144
00:10:07,002 --> 00:10:10,302
When you are under so much psychological
145
00:10:10,602 --> 00:10:13,899
and physical stress, there are things - you
146
00:10:13,982 --> 00:10:15,599
forgot who exactly said what
147
00:10:15,682 --> 00:10:17,579
and the order in which it was said.
148
00:10:17,662 --> 00:10:20,302
So I asked for a transcript,
a minutes of the meeting.
149
00:10:20,962 --> 00:10:24,172
And she called me ten
minutes later saying, "Minister,
150
00:10:24,812 --> 00:10:28,852
I was told that there are no
minutes, no records at all."
151
00:10:29,392 --> 00:10:33,709
And then it's wall-to-wall
coverage globally and
152
00:10:33,792 --> 00:10:36,969
a version of the truth
that has nothing to do
153
00:10:37,052 --> 00:10:40,652
with the truth, is registered as the truth,
154
00:10:41,952 --> 00:10:43,729
and I have absolutely no
way of defending myself.
155
00:10:43,812 --> 00:10:45,892
So after a while, I started
recording every meeting.
156
00:10:47,012 --> 00:10:49,732
I watched the transmission of fake news
157
00:10:49,952 --> 00:10:51,412
during my period in office.
158
00:10:51,602 --> 00:10:53,649
There's been a very
serious misunderstanding,
159
00:10:53,732 --> 00:10:56,772
which I hope was not intentional
by members of the press.
160
00:10:57,312 --> 00:10:59,139
Not everybody, thankfully. You
161
00:10:59,222 --> 00:11:00,589
won't deal with the Troika.
162
00:11:00,672 --> 00:11:03,512
Is that right? You will not deal
with the institutions - No it is not -
163
00:11:03,682 --> 00:11:06,289
that are your creditors -
By the way, I was listening
164
00:11:06,372 --> 00:11:09,052
to your report, and I
have to tell you, you know,
165
00:11:09,152 --> 00:11:10,692
I'm a great BBC fan,
166
00:11:11,522 --> 00:11:14,452
I've never listened to
such an inaccurate report.
167
00:11:14,772 --> 00:11:17,572
I would be in a meeting
in some godforsaken,
168
00:11:17,682 --> 00:11:21,412
neon-lit room in
Brussels with the creditors'
169
00:11:21,672 --> 00:11:23,449
representatives, Europe ministers,
170
00:11:23,532 --> 00:11:27,649
and so on.
171
00:11:27,732 --> 00:11:31,852
Some of my interlocutors
or their minions would
172
00:11:31,962 --> 00:11:34,369
send a message to one
173
00:11:34,452 --> 00:11:37,452
or two key journalists waiting outside,
174
00:11:38,132 --> 00:11:40,199
representing the Wall Street
Journal, the Financial Times.
175
00:11:40,282 --> 00:11:44,142
This was genuinely fake news, reporting
176
00:11:44,252 --> 00:11:45,932
that I said something which I had not said
177
00:11:46,202 --> 00:11:47,482
or that something was said to me
178
00:11:47,632 --> 00:11:49,062
which not was not said to me.
179
00:11:51,112 --> 00:11:54,329
Those journalists would
not necessarily print it in the
180
00:11:54,412 --> 00:11:55,892
newspaper, but they would tweet it -
181
00:11:56,592 --> 00:11:59,372
that we heard that this was what
Varoufakis said or what was said
182
00:11:59,972 --> 00:12:03,172
to Varoufakis. Very soon after
that, it was printed all over the world.
183
00:12:07,272 --> 00:12:11,812
It was reproduced as fact
and then they would print it,
184
00:12:12,602 --> 00:12:14,969
reporting that the world
press is saying this, not
185
00:12:15,052 --> 00:12:16,532
reporting their own sources.
186
00:12:23,592 --> 00:12:26,502
There is no democratic deficit in Brussels.
187
00:12:26,732 --> 00:12:28,279
It's like saying that there is a deficit
188
00:12:28,362 --> 00:12:30,342
of oxygen on the moon.
189
00:12:30,572 --> 00:12:32,299
There's no deficit of oxygen on the moon,
190
00:12:32,382 --> 00:12:33,899
there's just no oxygen. Similarly,
191
00:12:33,982 --> 00:12:35,302
there's no democracy in Brussels.
192
00:12:35,552 --> 00:12:36,582
Brussels is a cartel.
193
00:12:42,902 --> 00:12:44,459
European countries fought long
194
00:12:44,542 --> 00:12:47,902
and hard to establish democratic
regimes. And we have them,
195
00:12:48,202 --> 00:12:51,502
and it's a magnificent thing
that we have functioning
196
00:12:52,212 --> 00:12:54,422
democracies, at least formally speaking.
197
00:12:55,202 --> 00:12:57,862
But at the same time, we
created the European Union.
198
00:12:58,962 --> 00:13:01,022
We brought together these nation states
199
00:13:01,482 --> 00:13:04,422
and pushed all the important
decisions onto Brussels.
200
00:13:05,802 --> 00:13:09,099
The first version of the
European Common Market
201
00:13:09,182 --> 00:13:11,542
of the European Union was the so-called
202
00:13:11,862 --> 00:13:15,022
European Communities of Coal
and Steel, exactly like OPEC.
203
00:13:15,402 --> 00:13:18,179
But the problem with a cartel is
204
00:13:18,262 --> 00:13:20,262
that it is inimical to democracy.
205
00:13:21,292 --> 00:13:22,582
OPEC could never be democratic.
206
00:13:23,442 --> 00:13:27,219
The only way of fixing prices
is through an agreement
207
00:13:27,302 --> 00:13:28,582
between oligarchs.
208
00:13:29,962 --> 00:13:31,979
So a pan-European cartel, which is
209
00:13:32,062 --> 00:13:34,182
what the European Union
was, was always meant
210
00:13:34,442 --> 00:13:37,422
and always designed to
be a democracy-free zone.
211
00:13:38,082 --> 00:13:40,462
To legitimize that cartel, at
some point it was important
212
00:13:40,602 --> 00:13:43,262
to create something called
the European Parliament,
213
00:13:44,232 --> 00:13:46,899
which is, however, the
only parliament in the history
214
00:13:46,982 --> 00:13:48,539
of the world that doesn't have the capacity
215
00:13:48,622 --> 00:13:51,222
to initiate legislation, which
makes it a joke really...
216
00:13:51,812 --> 00:13:52,822
just a rubber stamp.
217
00:14:06,562 --> 00:14:10,702
Now, one of the things that
you mentioned is that they had
218
00:14:11,222 --> 00:14:13,339
imposed a four
219
00:14:13,422 --> 00:14:16,462
and a half percent primary surplus.
220
00:14:16,882 --> 00:14:19,742
No country's ever had that
kind of a primary surplus
221
00:14:19,842 --> 00:14:22,182
for the length of time that was dictated.
222
00:14:22,522 --> 00:14:23,559
How did the Greek government,
223
00:14:23,642 --> 00:14:26,022
the previous Greek government
sign a program like that?
224
00:14:26,362 --> 00:14:27,579
And how could the ECB
225
00:14:27,662 --> 00:14:30,142
and the Troika propose a program like that?
226
00:14:33,362 --> 00:14:37,062
And one more question. Are
they serious about doing that?
227
00:14:39,092 --> 00:14:40,582
Have they changed their mind? Now?
228
00:14:41,542 --> 00:14:43,062
I think it's the politics of denial.
229
00:14:43,562 --> 00:14:46,822
The greatest embarrassment
for the Troika officials that I
230
00:14:47,362 --> 00:14:50,342
worked with was that the
proposals I was putting to them
231
00:14:50,972 --> 00:14:52,769
would've normally been the kinds
232
00:14:52,852 --> 00:14:54,572
of proposals they would be putting forward.
233
00:14:56,352 --> 00:14:57,589
For instance, when it came
234
00:14:57,672 --> 00:15:00,172
to the debt restructuring
proposals, the debt swaps,
235
00:15:01,012 --> 00:15:04,349
I had worked on them with
people like Thomas Mayer,
236
00:15:04,432 --> 00:15:06,389
who used to be the chief
economist of Deutsche Bank,
237
00:15:06,472 --> 00:15:09,132
of all places, of all institutions.
238
00:15:09,962 --> 00:15:14,212
What if we were to admit
that an unpayable debt
239
00:15:15,352 --> 00:15:18,332
cannot be paid and it
has to be restructured?
240
00:15:18,682 --> 00:15:21,252
This is something that Wall
Street lawyers do every day.
241
00:15:21,992 --> 00:15:24,929
So why were they insisting
on rejecting these proposals
242
00:15:25,012 --> 00:15:28,129
and sticking to a programme
which they themselves understood
243
00:15:28,212 --> 00:15:29,289
to be catastrophic for Greece
244
00:15:29,372 --> 00:15:30,852
and not particularly helpful to them?
245
00:15:31,102 --> 00:15:35,089
Amartya Sen put it brilliantly
to me once. He said, "Your
246
00:15:35,172 --> 00:15:37,372
trouble, Yanis, was
that you were negotiating
247
00:15:37,602 --> 00:15:39,932
with creditors who did
not want their money back."
248
00:15:40,312 --> 00:15:41,492
The beauty of it all was
249
00:15:41,962 --> 00:15:45,852
that this interpretation
was offered to me by
250
00:15:46,832 --> 00:15:50,652
one of the top officials of
the Troika, Christine Lagarde,
251
00:15:51,152 --> 00:15:53,852
the managing director of the
International Monetary Fund,
252
00:15:54,792 --> 00:15:57,772
who in our first face-to-face,
one-on-one meeting
253
00:15:58,472 --> 00:16:02,972
at some point, astounded me
by admitting that the programme
254
00:16:03,162 --> 00:16:05,349
that she and the rest of the Troika
255
00:16:05,432 --> 00:16:07,292
who were imposing upon
Greece all those years,
256
00:16:07,752 --> 00:16:10,292
and which they still
wanted to impose upon me
257
00:16:10,472 --> 00:16:14,212
and my government, could not work.
258
00:16:14,392 --> 00:16:15,979
This is verbatim. She said,
259
00:16:16,062 --> 00:16:17,079
"Yanis, of course you're right.
260
00:16:17,162 --> 00:16:18,572
This programme cannot work."
261
00:16:20,282 --> 00:16:23,482
This is not to say that
it's difficult to make it work.
262
00:16:24,202 --> 00:16:25,612
It's an impossibility theorem.
263
00:16:26,352 --> 00:16:29,009
You know, deep down, I
don't know whether you have
264
00:16:29,092 --> 00:16:30,332
this, you probably don't.
265
00:16:30,752 --> 00:16:32,292
You're Noam Chomsky, you wouldn't.
266
00:16:32,392 --> 00:16:36,612
But I'm less experienced in this game
267
00:16:36,912 --> 00:16:39,572
of clashing with powers
that be at that level.
268
00:16:40,352 --> 00:16:44,532
And deep down, I think
if I psychoanalyse myself,
269
00:16:45,372 --> 00:16:47,599
I really wanted to think
that the adults know
270
00:16:47,682 --> 00:16:51,092
what they're doing and that
I'm the child that is recalcitrant,
271
00:16:51,272 --> 00:16:52,412
kicking and screaming.
272
00:16:52,672 --> 00:16:54,469
But deep down, the adults,
273
00:16:54,552 --> 00:16:57,089
the people in power at
the top of the IMF know
274
00:16:57,172 --> 00:16:58,909
what they're doing, and my complaints
275
00:16:58,992 --> 00:17:01,869
and protestations, maybe they're not
276
00:17:01,952 --> 00:17:03,059
completely accurate.
277
00:17:03,142 --> 00:17:05,852
Maybe they know more than I think they do.
278
00:17:06,192 --> 00:17:08,169
But when these people turn around to me
279
00:17:08,252 --> 00:17:09,772
and say, "You're right, it can't work.
280
00:17:09,962 --> 00:17:12,372
What we are trying to impose
upon your nation can't work.
281
00:17:13,152 --> 00:17:18,052
But Yanis, you must understand we have
282
00:17:19,132 --> 00:17:21,812
invested so much political
capital in this programme,
283
00:17:22,032 --> 00:17:23,132
we can't go back.
284
00:17:23,712 --> 00:17:25,812
And your credibility, my credibility,
285
00:17:26,642 --> 00:17:27,772
depends on accepting it."
286
00:17:28,112 --> 00:17:29,969
Of course, I didn't give a
damn about my credibility
287
00:17:30,052 --> 00:17:31,972
with Christine Lagarde
or any of these people.
288
00:17:32,392 --> 00:17:36,492
All I cared about was my
credibility with the voters, the Greeks
289
00:17:36,592 --> 00:17:39,332
who were languishing in debtors' prison.
290
00:17:47,082 --> 00:17:49,452
Well, that's only 10% of the story.
291
00:17:50,792 --> 00:17:53,092
Look, the IMF is the worst of the worst.
292
00:17:54,122 --> 00:17:57,549
They're throwing a spanner in the
works. My interpretation is they're being
293
00:17:57,632 --> 00:17:59,652
so recalcitrant and so obnoxious,
294
00:18:00,632 --> 00:18:02,692
they can't possibly want a solution
295
00:18:03,472 --> 00:18:05,372
and they can't possibly
want a default either.
296
00:18:06,312 --> 00:18:07,732
It seems to me that they want out.
297
00:18:12,912 --> 00:18:14,952
You know, the Eurogroup,
by the way, doesn't exist.
298
00:18:15,592 --> 00:18:17,492
Did you know that? I didn't know it.
299
00:18:18,212 --> 00:18:21,412
I found out that it doesn't
exist when in the Eurogroup,
300
00:18:21,952 --> 00:18:25,772
I contested a decision made
301
00:18:25,892 --> 00:18:29,272
by its president.
302
00:18:29,392 --> 00:18:31,432
I contested the legality of that decision.
303
00:18:32,162 --> 00:18:34,102
And he turned and he
said, "Oh, I can do it."
304
00:18:34,972 --> 00:18:37,469
I put my hand up again. I said, "Excuse me.
305
00:18:37,552 --> 00:18:38,909
I would like a legal opinion from the
306
00:18:38,992 --> 00:18:40,592
secretariat as to whether this is true.
307
00:18:41,462 --> 00:18:43,719
I'm a minister of finance.
I belong to the Eurogroup.
308
00:18:43,802 --> 00:18:46,322
I have the right to ask for legal advice
309
00:18:46,832 --> 00:18:48,322
from the Eurogroup secretariat."
310
00:18:49,272 --> 00:18:51,399
There was a kerfuffle
for about 10, 15 minutes.
311
00:18:51,482 --> 00:18:55,099
They were sort of talking on the phone
312
00:18:55,182 --> 00:18:57,659
and trying to find out what
to answer. And the answer,
313
00:18:57,742 --> 00:18:58,782
the official answer, came.
314
00:18:59,142 --> 00:19:01,319
And the official answer was, lo
315
00:19:01,402 --> 00:19:04,872
and behold, "Minister,
316
00:19:05,882 --> 00:19:07,782
the Eurogroup does not exist in law.
317
00:19:09,292 --> 00:19:11,579
It's not mentioned in any
European Union treaty.
318
00:19:11,662 --> 00:19:14,269
It's an informal meeting and
319
00:19:14,352 --> 00:19:16,352
therefore its president
can do anything he likes."
320
00:19:30,902 --> 00:19:35,029
Today's Eurogroup meeting
condemned the awfully inaccurate
321
00:19:35,112 --> 00:19:38,232
and unhelpful supposed leaks that
322
00:19:39,452 --> 00:19:43,032
marred the aftermath of the
previous Eurogroup meeting in Riga.
323
00:19:43,842 --> 00:19:46,912
Thank you. Now I'd like to turn to Yanis.
324
00:19:48,292 --> 00:19:51,872
Let me start also with a comment on leaks.
325
00:19:52,612 --> 00:19:55,992
It would be good if there were none,
326
00:19:56,572 --> 00:19:57,712
but if there are leaks,
327
00:19:58,172 --> 00:19:59,732
it would be good if they were accurate.
328
00:20:00,672 --> 00:20:02,429
I remember years and years
329
00:20:02,512 --> 00:20:06,369
before entering politics, how
grateful I was to people like
330
00:20:06,452 --> 00:20:09,152
Julian Assange and
WikiLeaks. As a young man,
331
00:20:09,832 --> 00:20:14,432
I was terrified by 1984,
George Orwell's book. I felt,
332
00:20:14,612 --> 00:20:16,869
my goodness, this is a very prescient,
333
00:20:16,952 --> 00:20:19,149
very prophetic book
because technology is going
334
00:20:19,232 --> 00:20:22,472
to make it absolutely possible, inevitable
335
00:20:23,302 --> 00:20:25,552
that Big Brother will have a way of knowing
336
00:20:25,762 --> 00:20:27,779
where I am at every point in time,
337
00:20:27,862 --> 00:20:29,489
what I'm saying, who am I speaking with,
338
00:20:29,572 --> 00:20:32,749
and so on and so forth. And
that is a terrifying thought.
339
00:20:32,832 --> 00:20:35,672
I mean this is our reality, as we all know.
340
00:20:37,812 --> 00:20:41,512
And I could not imagine
what would stop tyranny from
341
00:20:42,202 --> 00:20:44,072
developing on the basis of Big Brother.
342
00:20:45,262 --> 00:20:46,512
What could stop Big Brother?
343
00:20:47,352 --> 00:20:51,419
And the whole notion of
WikiLeaks gave me hope long
344
00:20:51,502 --> 00:20:53,662
before it became
well-known internationally.
345
00:20:54,322 --> 00:20:57,542
And what is that notion?
That we take the technologies
346
00:20:57,642 --> 00:21:02,462
of Big Brother and we convert
them into a gigantic mirror
347
00:21:02,892 --> 00:21:04,742
that we turn towards
the face of Big Brother,
348
00:21:05,562 --> 00:21:07,142
so that Big Brother knows that
349
00:21:07,242 --> 00:21:09,422
as he's watching us, we are watching him.
350
00:21:11,252 --> 00:21:15,142
That idea liberated me
from the fear of technology
351
00:21:15,482 --> 00:21:17,222
and the fear of Big Brother.
352
00:21:18,332 --> 00:21:20,902
Once, he called me and he
said, "I've got something very
353
00:21:21,422 --> 00:21:22,822
interesting for you to hear."
354
00:21:23,562 --> 00:21:25,502
And I went to the embassy
355
00:21:25,802 --> 00:21:29,859
and he played a tape of a
discussion that was leaked
356
00:21:29,942 --> 00:21:33,662
to WikiLeaks from unknown sources between
357
00:21:35,172 --> 00:21:38,142
apparatchiks of the International
Monetary Fund, where
358
00:21:38,812 --> 00:21:41,699
they were confirming everything
I was saying about the Greek
359
00:21:41,782 --> 00:21:45,619
programme and the Greek
austerity with, actually, a degree
360
00:21:45,702 --> 00:21:50,262
of passion and a degree of
indignity that the IMF, Germany,
361
00:21:50,922 --> 00:21:53,199
the German government of
Germany, the German government,
362
00:21:53,282 --> 00:21:55,142
the European Central Bank, were doing this
363
00:21:55,682 --> 00:21:56,782
to the poor Greek people.
364
00:21:57,482 --> 00:21:58,922
We have to break down these barriers
365
00:21:59,122 --> 00:22:01,339
and we have to turn the mirror towards
366
00:22:01,422 --> 00:22:02,462
the face of Big Brother.
367
00:22:04,602 --> 00:22:08,422
But what tangibly can you do going forward?
368
00:22:08,812 --> 00:22:09,739
Okay.
369
00:22:09,822 --> 00:22:14,222
I would like us to demand
collectively as Europeans,
370
00:22:14,362 --> 00:22:17,099
as European citizens,
that we shall all agree
371
00:22:17,182 --> 00:22:20,542
that every time Cameron,
Tsípras, Merkel meet,
372
00:22:21,132 --> 00:22:24,542
that their meetings should be live-streamed
373
00:22:25,522 --> 00:22:27,482
and we should be able
to listen to what they say.
374
00:22:32,202 --> 00:22:37,142
How about that? How about demanding
375
00:22:37,692 --> 00:22:42,262
that the European Central Bank governing
376
00:22:43,232 --> 00:22:47,222
board meetings record minutes
377
00:22:47,992 --> 00:22:49,742
which are then published on the internet.
378
00:22:51,562 --> 00:22:55,539
It's like a clapometer. We don't need new
379
00:22:55,622 --> 00:22:56,819
institutions or treaties for this.
380
00:22:56,902 --> 00:22:59,422
We can agree this for next week, tomorrow.
381
00:23:00,122 --> 00:23:04,902
An informed body politic is
a powerful body politic, which
382
00:23:05,732 --> 00:23:08,062
disempowers those politicians
383
00:23:08,402 --> 00:23:09,582
who are running agendas
384
00:23:09,692 --> 00:23:11,622
against the interest of the majority.
385
00:23:11,992 --> 00:23:14,759
Mr Varoufakis, you've been in
virtual deadlock for months now.
386
00:23:14,842 --> 00:23:17,259
Isn't the truth that you're going to have
387
00:23:17,342 --> 00:23:19,259
to row back on some of
the promises you made
388
00:23:19,342 --> 00:23:21,419
to get elected in order to reach agreement
389
00:23:21,502 --> 00:23:22,822
with Greece's creditors?
390
00:23:23,562 --> 00:23:26,382
We have compromised to a very large extent.
391
00:23:27,242 --> 00:23:29,379
Is there going to be a
redistribution of the burdens
392
00:23:29,462 --> 00:23:32,062
of the crisis from the
shoulders of the weak,
393
00:23:33,082 --> 00:23:35,982
who can't bear them anymore,
onto the shoulders of those
394
00:23:36,082 --> 00:23:38,262
who were partly responsible
for causing the crisis
395
00:23:38,362 --> 00:23:40,099
and who are not burdened
396
00:23:40,182 --> 00:23:41,702
by those burdens at all at the moment?
397
00:23:46,352 --> 00:23:47,689
I should make an announcement,
398
00:23:47,772 --> 00:23:50,409
give a press conference, as
I always do after Eurogroup,
399
00:23:50,492 --> 00:23:52,212
and then the Prime Minister should come out
400
00:23:52,432 --> 00:23:54,852
and declare that the next
day there will be no payment
401
00:23:55,472 --> 00:23:58,489
to the IMF and call our partners
402
00:23:58,572 --> 00:24:01,329
and institutions to urgent discussions on
403
00:24:01,412 --> 00:24:02,449
how to resolve this situation.
404
00:24:02,532 --> 00:24:03,652
That was my recommendation.
405
00:24:04,712 --> 00:24:07,772
Before the conversation
could come to a conclusion,
406
00:24:07,912 --> 00:24:12,012
the phone rings and it's the Bank
of Greece, Yannis Stournaras, who
407
00:24:12,652 --> 00:24:14,229
absolutely by accident
408
00:24:14,312 --> 00:24:16,372
and miraculously, happened
409
00:24:16,512 --> 00:24:19,652
to find 650 millions for us.
410
00:24:20,762 --> 00:24:24,092
Yeah? Isn't it astonishing?
411
00:24:24,522 --> 00:24:27,572
What, what a stroke of
luck at the very last moment.
412
00:24:30,452 --> 00:24:31,899
I mean, they think we're complete idiots,
413
00:24:31,982 --> 00:24:35,359
don't they. I said, "Look,
this money never existed.
414
00:24:35,442 --> 00:24:38,849
They created it." Alexis
is very smart. You know,
415
00:24:38,932 --> 00:24:40,772
he said, "Bastards.
416
00:24:41,872 --> 00:24:43,412
Now they're making it impossible
417
00:24:44,082 --> 00:24:45,412
that we should default on them."
418
00:24:50,552 --> 00:24:55,332
So we have been dragged
further and further into a labyrinth.
419
00:24:55,682 --> 00:24:56,682
This is what's going on.
420
00:25:04,432 --> 00:25:06,972
It is quite clear that
the reason why we had
421
00:25:07,492 --> 00:25:11,729
a deposit flight was
because every day, even
422
00:25:11,812 --> 00:25:15,092
before we were elected,
Greeks were being told
423
00:25:15,242 --> 00:25:17,049
that if we are elected
and if we stay in power
424
00:25:17,132 --> 00:25:20,412
for more than a few days, the
ATMs will cease functioning.
425
00:25:25,002 --> 00:25:26,002
Right on cue.
426
00:25:26,252 --> 00:25:27,432
But this is Brussels, right?
427
00:25:27,852 --> 00:25:32,192
So... I've been asked whether the people
428
00:25:32,582 --> 00:25:34,672
manning and womanning those institutions,
429
00:25:35,662 --> 00:25:38,529
the apparatchiks, the
bureaucrats, whether they're awful
430
00:25:38,612 --> 00:25:40,312
people, evil people.
431
00:25:41,452 --> 00:25:42,889
The answer is very clear:
432
00:25:42,972 --> 00:25:45,232
no, they're not. They're not even that
433
00:25:45,822 --> 00:25:49,352
because, let's face it, truly
evil people are interesting.
434
00:25:50,942 --> 00:25:54,552
Homo Bureaucraticus is a banal creature.
435
00:25:55,422 --> 00:25:57,872
Homo Bureaucraticus
comes to you with a list,
436
00:25:58,732 --> 00:26:00,752
and boxes that they need to be ticked.
437
00:26:02,612 --> 00:26:05,669
And the whole conversation,
which has a semblance
438
00:26:05,752 --> 00:26:07,712
of a conversation, is
not really a conversation -
439
00:26:07,852 --> 00:26:09,629
it is an algorithm, the purpose of which is
440
00:26:09,712 --> 00:26:12,712
to extract all those demands, all those
441
00:26:13,062 --> 00:26:14,312
concessions from you.
442
00:26:15,772 --> 00:26:19,389
So in the end, the
people that you're dealing
443
00:26:19,472 --> 00:26:20,709
with are like robots.
444
00:26:20,792 --> 00:26:23,712
They're like automata.
They're neither good nor bad,
445
00:26:24,252 --> 00:26:27,872
and they had effectively to
be bleached of human content
446
00:26:28,492 --> 00:26:30,429
in order to be performing their duties.
447
00:26:30,512 --> 00:26:31,709
There is a Darwinian process
448
00:26:31,792 --> 00:26:35,512
of selection within those
institutions that selects for banality.
449
00:26:35,732 --> 00:26:37,469
And even if one is not banal, one has
450
00:26:37,552 --> 00:26:41,369
to become banal in
order to rise to the position
451
00:26:41,452 --> 00:26:43,959
of power that is necessary
for them to be facing
452
00:26:44,042 --> 00:26:45,972
someone like a minister of finance.
453
00:26:47,192 --> 00:26:51,652
And, as a politician who has
been elected to serve the public
454
00:26:52,592 --> 00:26:56,732
facing them, it is of the
essence that you bypass them,
455
00:26:57,462 --> 00:27:00,232
that you go beyond the banal
456
00:27:01,252 --> 00:27:03,112
and you meet genuinely interesting people
457
00:27:03,772 --> 00:27:05,549
who are at the top of those institutions.
458
00:27:05,632 --> 00:27:09,272
People like Christine Lagarde,
like Wolfgang Schäuble,
459
00:27:09,412 --> 00:27:13,992
who were nastier in many
important ways, or nicer.
460
00:27:14,292 --> 00:27:15,992
But at least they were human beings.
461
00:27:17,702 --> 00:27:21,549
It's my considered opinion
that now the agreement has
462
00:27:21,632 --> 00:27:25,069
to be reached at a level
of political leaders, heads
463
00:27:25,152 --> 00:27:27,232
of state, prime ministers, chancellors,
464
00:27:27,892 --> 00:27:31,692
Greeks need a missing ingredient: hope.
465
00:27:33,692 --> 00:27:36,489
A speech of hope for
Greece is precisely that
466
00:27:36,572 --> 00:27:39,572
which would take and
make all the difference now.
467
00:27:39,752 --> 00:27:42,772
A speech of hope for Greece
468
00:27:43,422 --> 00:27:45,212
would benefit our creditors
469
00:27:45,832 --> 00:27:49,109
as our renaissance will
eliminate the probability
470
00:27:49,192 --> 00:27:51,172
of defaulting on their loans.
471
00:27:52,712 --> 00:27:54,332
Who should deliver the speech of hope?
472
00:27:55,722 --> 00:27:57,682
Well, I think it should be
the German chancellor.
473
00:28:01,712 --> 00:28:06,572
So Tsípras was obviously banking on Merkel
474
00:28:06,672 --> 00:28:07,852
to be the good cop.
475
00:28:08,042 --> 00:28:10,289
Usually she's the one that is full
476
00:28:10,372 --> 00:28:14,812
of understanding. This time
she said, "Oh, by the way,
477
00:28:15,352 --> 00:28:17,809
you need to have a
surplus, primary surplus,
478
00:28:17,892 --> 00:28:19,212
of 2.5% next year.
479
00:28:19,912 --> 00:28:22,852
No less than that." It's ridiculous.
480
00:28:43,192 --> 00:28:46,809
You may have noticed
that in my presentation, I try
481
00:28:46,892 --> 00:28:49,909
to be positive, to talk
about a possible agreement.
482
00:28:49,992 --> 00:28:51,129
An agreement that we're tabling,
483
00:28:51,212 --> 00:28:54,532
which we deeply believe
that if it was accepted,
484
00:28:55,192 --> 00:28:58,569
or it became the foundation
upon which an agreement is
485
00:28:58,652 --> 00:29:01,292
based, a final agreement, a compromise,
486
00:29:02,312 --> 00:29:04,452
we would make this crisis go away.
487
00:29:05,432 --> 00:29:09,852
In this frame of mind, I'm
going to refuse to discuss
488
00:29:10,482 --> 00:29:11,652
speculation about failure.
489
00:29:24,102 --> 00:29:28,932
There are moments when
your interlocutor surprises you.
490
00:29:31,152 --> 00:29:33,129
And that moment in my relationship
491
00:29:33,212 --> 00:29:36,412
with the German finance minister,
Wolfgang Schäuble, came when
492
00:29:38,272 --> 00:29:40,852
he broke with the tradition
of the previous months,
493
00:29:41,602 --> 00:29:44,809
when he was effectively
instructing me to do
494
00:29:44,892 --> 00:29:48,309
as I'm told. It came when I
asked him a simple question.
495
00:29:48,392 --> 00:29:51,292
"So let's say, Wolfgang, that
I sign on the dotted line here.
496
00:29:52,192 --> 00:29:53,992
Do you think this would
be end of the crisis?
497
00:29:54,972 --> 00:29:58,012
Because my fear is that
if I sign on the dotted line,
498
00:29:58,522 --> 00:30:00,309
this crunch that we just experienced,
499
00:30:00,392 --> 00:30:02,689
and which we're experiencing
now, is simply going
500
00:30:02,772 --> 00:30:03,690
to repeat itself in six months'
501
00:30:03,773 --> 00:30:07,372
time, only it will be
worse." And he agreed.
502
00:30:08,752 --> 00:30:10,612
And I thought, oh my God, he's agreeing.
503
00:30:11,872 --> 00:30:13,852
If if he's agreeing,
what am I going to say?
504
00:30:17,192 --> 00:30:18,692
And then he added,
505
00:30:20,612 --> 00:30:23,752
"But you realize that I cannot be seen
506
00:30:25,432 --> 00:30:29,532
to be acquiescent with you."
507
00:30:30,522 --> 00:30:32,802
And what he meant, it was clear
508
00:30:33,492 --> 00:30:36,952
- and there was a
logic to it as well - that if
509
00:30:38,332 --> 00:30:42,192
it was revealed that the two
of us had struck an agreement
510
00:30:42,382 --> 00:30:47,189
that was mutually beneficial,
that would be signalled
511
00:30:47,272 --> 00:30:50,112
to the good people of
Spain: that if they voted
512
00:30:50,252 --> 00:30:53,049
for a government like ours,
they could get a good deal
513
00:30:53,132 --> 00:30:55,392
for Spain; to the good people of Ireland;
514
00:30:56,172 --> 00:30:57,472
to the good people of Italy.
515
00:30:58,622 --> 00:31:00,992
Finally, to the good people of France.
516
00:31:02,212 --> 00:31:04,552
And Wolfgang was clear on this.
517
00:31:05,492 --> 00:31:08,472
He wanted the Troika in Paris,
518
00:31:09,932 --> 00:31:11,952
and we Greeks were collateral damage.
519
00:31:12,222 --> 00:31:13,312
What is really going on?
520
00:31:13,722 --> 00:31:17,929
There is a titanic battle
between, on the one hand,
521
00:31:18,012 --> 00:31:19,472
the IMF and Berlin.
522
00:31:19,752 --> 00:31:21,559
I mean, there is that. And
at the same time there is
523
00:31:21,642 --> 00:31:22,672
Paris versus Berlin.
524
00:31:22,932 --> 00:31:24,349
So Greece is a little mouse
525
00:31:24,432 --> 00:31:27,509
that is being squashed while
the elephants are tussling
526
00:31:27,592 --> 00:31:29,192
trying to work out their differences.
527
00:31:30,592 --> 00:31:33,512
I said to him, "Wolfgang,
I want to ask you a favour.
528
00:31:34,452 --> 00:31:36,832
Can you please stop telling me what to do?
529
00:31:37,372 --> 00:31:38,392
And just for 10 minutes
530
00:31:38,662 --> 00:31:40,472
have a conversation with me as a friend.
531
00:31:42,172 --> 00:31:45,352
And the question is this:
if you were in my shoes,
532
00:31:46,082 --> 00:31:47,312
would you sign that document?"
533
00:31:48,132 --> 00:31:49,989
He didn't answer for a good while.
534
00:31:50,072 --> 00:31:51,632
It felt like centuries to me.
535
00:31:51,812 --> 00:31:53,252
It was probably a couple of minutes.
536
00:31:54,212 --> 00:31:55,432
Two minutes can be a very,
537
00:31:55,702 --> 00:31:58,032
very long time under the circumstances.
538
00:31:59,292 --> 00:32:01,872
And he turned back to me
and he said, "No, I wouldn't."
539
00:32:04,092 --> 00:32:07,152
And I said, "Okay, so what do we do?"
540
00:32:08,332 --> 00:32:13,112
And he just raised his shoulders
in a state of despondency,
541
00:32:13,492 --> 00:32:15,672
of genuine fatigue.
542
00:32:16,632 --> 00:32:19,872
A few days later, in a Eurogroup
meeting, during a break,
543
00:32:20,852 --> 00:32:23,032
he actually congratulated
me for not signing.
544
00:32:23,252 --> 00:32:25,632
He said to me, these are words he used,
545
00:32:26,172 --> 00:32:27,829
"If you signed, you would be answerable
546
00:32:27,912 --> 00:32:29,472
to your people."
547
00:32:30,172 --> 00:32:32,552
Today, the Greek government
has huge challenges.
548
00:32:32,712 --> 00:32:34,512
I would never change my job with him.
549
00:32:35,842 --> 00:32:36,842
I'm quite happy.
550
00:32:41,552 --> 00:32:44,652
To make the transition
from academic to politician,
551
00:32:45,102 --> 00:32:47,172
there had to be a major crisis.
552
00:32:50,352 --> 00:32:52,252
I'm only an accidental politician.
553
00:32:53,092 --> 00:32:54,812
I only threw my hat in the proverbial ring
554
00:32:55,162 --> 00:32:58,412
because of the intensity of the crisis
555
00:33:03,392 --> 00:33:06,132
and the opportunity to put my
money where my mouth was.
556
00:33:11,802 --> 00:33:15,452
Once you make the transition
from academia to politics,
557
00:33:16,652 --> 00:33:20,452
suddenly there's no
possibility of genuine dialogue.
558
00:33:21,092 --> 00:33:24,292
I was expecting that when
finance ministers get together,
559
00:33:25,752 --> 00:33:28,652
we discuss finance, we discuss economics.
560
00:33:30,062 --> 00:33:33,412
Never did we have a discussion
on those matters. Not once.
561
00:33:34,512 --> 00:33:37,329
And when, because I was
representing a country whose
562
00:33:37,412 --> 00:33:38,852
political economy was dying,
563
00:33:40,162 --> 00:33:44,252
when I brought these issues
to the table, I was looked at
564
00:33:44,752 --> 00:33:49,489
as an outsider, that
impolitely barged in demanding
565
00:33:49,572 --> 00:33:52,532
to have a conversation
that was beyond the pale.
566
00:33:53,512 --> 00:33:55,512
We would have a meeting
that would last ten hours,
567
00:33:57,112 --> 00:33:58,329
and we would spend one,
568
00:33:58,412 --> 00:34:01,812
one and a half hours with
little speeches, monologues
569
00:34:02,552 --> 00:34:05,492
and then the rest of the
time, eight hours, nine hours,
570
00:34:06,152 --> 00:34:10,732
was spent negotiating.
What? The communique.
571
00:34:12,462 --> 00:34:15,032
Arguing and nitpicking
572
00:34:15,862 --> 00:34:17,419
regarding particular words
573
00:34:17,502 --> 00:34:19,152
that could go in the press release.
574
00:34:19,982 --> 00:34:24,049
That contrast between
academic life, where you live
575
00:34:24,132 --> 00:34:27,992
or die on the basis of the
quality of your opinions,
576
00:34:28,692 --> 00:34:33,552
to the Eurogroup, where
ideas really don't get discussed,
577
00:34:33,942 --> 00:34:35,912
even policies do not get discussed,
578
00:34:36,632 --> 00:34:41,272
I have to say, I had not expected that.
579
00:34:41,822 --> 00:34:43,942
Unfortunately, agreement
has not been reached as yet.
580
00:34:44,092 --> 00:34:45,749
But there will come a point
where Greece will either have
581
00:34:45,832 --> 00:34:47,832
to compromise or it will have to default.
582
00:34:48,092 --> 00:34:50,349
And that is when you'll compromise, isn't
583
00:34:50,432 --> 00:34:51,350
It? We have compromised enormously
584
00:34:51,433 --> 00:34:52,552
But you have to -
585
00:34:52,772 --> 00:34:55,592
But we're not going to sign on an agreement
586
00:34:56,022 --> 00:34:57,712
that makes this crisis worse.
587
00:34:58,172 --> 00:35:01,269
We are going to compromise, compromise,
588
00:35:01,352 --> 00:35:03,192
compromise without being compromised.
589
00:35:03,862 --> 00:35:05,102
That is what we're going to do.
590
00:35:35,512 --> 00:35:36,430
What was your strategy?
591
00:35:36,513 --> 00:35:37,852
What was your long term plan?
592
00:35:42,552 --> 00:35:47,402
My strategy was to bombard
them with moderate proposals
593
00:35:47,592 --> 00:35:50,992
regarding the debt,
proposals that were moderate,
594
00:35:52,252 --> 00:35:54,512
technocratically advanced,
595
00:35:55,532 --> 00:35:57,872
but at this very same time that did the job
596
00:35:58,132 --> 00:36:02,272
of getting us out of debtors' prison.
597
00:36:03,062 --> 00:36:06,949
To back this strategy, there were a couple
598
00:36:07,032 --> 00:36:08,392
of tactics involved.
599
00:36:10,092 --> 00:36:11,312
One was a deterrence plan.
600
00:36:12,432 --> 00:36:15,152
I knew that the way they
would try to defeat us,
601
00:36:16,492 --> 00:36:19,632
to asphyxiate us, would be
through closing down the banks.
602
00:36:20,292 --> 00:36:24,472
So I had a plan for deterring
the closure of the banks.
603
00:36:25,622 --> 00:36:27,392
This involved primarily two things.
604
00:36:27,772 --> 00:36:31,272
Number one was the threat
that if you close down my banks,
605
00:36:31,532 --> 00:36:34,349
I'm going to haircut
the bonds that are owed
606
00:36:34,432 --> 00:36:35,672
by the Central Bank of Europe.
607
00:36:36,092 --> 00:36:39,152
And if I do that, I know you're
going to have huge problems
608
00:36:40,632 --> 00:36:42,229
maintaining Italy within the Euro
609
00:36:42,312 --> 00:36:45,832
because of a legal dispute
with the Bundesbank,
610
00:36:46,052 --> 00:36:47,392
the Central Bank of Germany.
611
00:36:48,052 --> 00:36:49,069
The second part of it was
612
00:36:49,152 --> 00:36:52,072
to create a parallel payment
system that I would be able to
613
00:36:52,592 --> 00:36:57,112
activate outside the banking
sector, outside the financial
614
00:36:57,292 --> 00:37:00,269
circuits that would
allow Greeks to transact
615
00:37:00,352 --> 00:37:03,392
with one another using the website
616
00:37:04,372 --> 00:37:06,392
of the Greek tax office.
617
00:37:13,972 --> 00:37:16,352
Why not threaten to take
Greece out of the Euro?
618
00:37:24,812 --> 00:37:26,852
The moment you start
talking about leaving the Euro
619
00:37:27,732 --> 00:37:32,272
in public, it becomes
a self-fulfilling prophecy
620
00:37:33,942 --> 00:37:36,019
because the Euro is a very fragile thing.
621
00:37:36,102 --> 00:37:37,352
Even though it looks hard
622
00:37:38,252 --> 00:37:42,649
and hard-nosed, all it takes for the Euro
623
00:37:42,732 --> 00:37:46,069
to collapse is for a critical
mass of people to think
624
00:37:46,152 --> 00:37:49,189
that it's going to
collapse. If a sufficient
625
00:37:49,272 --> 00:37:51,269
number of people start
thinking that Greece is out
626
00:37:51,352 --> 00:37:52,549
of the Euro, Greece is out of the Euro
627
00:37:52,632 --> 00:37:53,792
before you even know it.
628
00:37:55,412 --> 00:37:59,032
So for me, getting out of
the Euro was not the plan,
629
00:37:59,292 --> 00:38:02,289
was not the objective. For
others, it should have been.
630
00:38:02,372 --> 00:38:03,509
It wasn't for me. For me, it was
631
00:38:03,592 --> 00:38:04,992
a debt restructure within the Euro.
632
00:38:05,612 --> 00:38:08,029
Of course, I was prepared
to contemplate getting out
633
00:38:08,112 --> 00:38:09,752
of the Euro if needs be.
634
00:38:10,932 --> 00:38:13,872
But if this is not your aim,
635
00:38:14,372 --> 00:38:17,819
you should not speak
the languages of Grexit.
636
00:38:17,902 --> 00:38:20,792
Toying with Grexit, which
is something we don't do,
637
00:38:21,252 --> 00:38:22,952
we are refusing to discuss it
638
00:38:23,192 --> 00:38:26,752
because as I've said before,
even worrying about it is like
639
00:38:27,232 --> 00:38:28,349
worrying about being hit
640
00:38:28,432 --> 00:38:31,349
by a comet in a universe in
which comets are attracted
641
00:38:31,432 --> 00:38:33,312
to you if you're worried about them.
642
00:38:36,052 --> 00:38:38,049
Actually, it was put to me by
somebody very high up in the
643
00:38:38,132 --> 00:38:42,132
IMF that the only alternative to this slow
644
00:38:43,232 --> 00:38:46,729
Chinese torture kind of process is to do
645
00:38:46,812 --> 00:38:47,812
what the Poles did,
646
00:38:48,192 --> 00:38:51,812
what Balcerowicz did
in 1990s, which is to say,
647
00:38:52,142 --> 00:38:53,419
"We're not playing ball here.
648
00:38:53,502 --> 00:38:55,222
We're not going to go through this process.
649
00:38:55,512 --> 00:38:57,212
But instead, here is a document,
650
00:38:59,182 --> 00:39:02,172
which is our national plan for revival,
651
00:39:02,452 --> 00:39:03,572
recovery, growth, whatever."
652
00:39:05,992 --> 00:39:07,932
And ever since,
653
00:39:08,082 --> 00:39:11,212
I've been working on a
document like that. Now I have one
654
00:39:12,512 --> 00:39:14,752
and I've been trying to
convince the rest of the cabinet
655
00:39:14,882 --> 00:39:17,132
that we should adopt this strategy.
656
00:39:17,932 --> 00:39:22,332
I was in a minority, but even
though we gave a great deal,
657
00:39:23,282 --> 00:39:25,249
the concessions were just, for me,
658
00:39:25,332 --> 00:39:27,292
they were too many. Too many, and too deep.
659
00:39:28,522 --> 00:39:30,649
Even then,
660
00:39:30,732 --> 00:39:33,612
they wouldn't even release some liquidity.
661
00:39:48,742 --> 00:39:53,082
My Troika interlocutors,
from possibly the first week,
662
00:39:54,112 --> 00:39:57,602
they surmised I'm not somebody
they can do business with,
663
00:39:58,222 --> 00:39:59,842
and they had to get rid of me.
664
00:40:00,502 --> 00:40:04,122
It was the only way of maintaining the
665
00:40:04,932 --> 00:40:07,442
fraudulent bankruptcy concealment process.
666
00:40:09,262 --> 00:40:10,402
So I had to go.
667
00:40:10,822 --> 00:40:12,162
It was clear from the beginning,
668
00:40:12,422 --> 00:40:15,842
and they tried a variety of
ways until they succeeded.
51550
Can't find what you're looking for?
Get subtitles in any language from opensubtitles.com, and translate them here.