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1
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Good. Yeah.
Beautiful colour...
2
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Let's go...
3
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We know, but I think
it's worth our trying to remember,
4
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that the Middle Ages were religious,
profoundly religious,
5
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in a way that we can't really conceive
nowadays.
6
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I want you now to imagine, if you can,
that you are inside that church,
7
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which you see as a model, and into which
this altarpiece was once placed.
8
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So no big windows,
obviously no electric light,
9
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but a space like this
with very narrow windows.
10
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The light would be filtering in.
11
00:03:35,260 --> 00:03:39,419
You're not in the National Gallery,
you're inside that church.
12
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Low light, maybe the sound of chanting,
13
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maybe the sound of prayers
being spoken slowly.
14
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The smell of incense used
to carry up the prayers of the faithful
15
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to the heavenly realm.
16
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And, if you will, now, just imagine
that you are looking at this painting
17
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by the light of candles.
18
00:04:00,180 --> 00:04:05,180
Candles which flicker. Candles
which would shine against the gold.
19
00:04:05,420 --> 00:04:08,579
And you might think - because, remember,
you can't read, you can't write,
20
00:04:08,580 --> 00:04:12,904
the year is 1377, your houses are
too hot in summer, too cold in winter,
21
00:04:12,980 --> 00:04:16,739
death is part of the threnody of everyday life,
people are dying all the time -
22
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you might think to yourself,
23
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"if I'm good, I can perhaps get up
to the kingdom everlasting,
24
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"where all is good, great and golden
25
00:04:26,900 --> 00:04:29,221
And I think another thing
might also happen.
26
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By the flickering candlelight,
27
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you might think that
these figures were moving.
28
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If they were moving, they were real,
29
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and could hear your prayer and intercede
for you with Christ and the Virgin in Heaven.
30
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So the painting would be acting as a
sacramental channel from earth to Heaven.
31
00:04:49,540 --> 00:04:53,386
And in a sense,
that's how this painting worked.
32
00:04:53,460 --> 00:04:56,819
I don't mean to make this sound as crude,
perhaps, as I am,
33
00:04:56,820 --> 00:05:00,108
but if you will, for a moment, just imagine
that I've brought from my pocket
34
00:05:00,180 --> 00:05:04,265
a picture of a sweet grey, fluffy kitten,
and I've pinned it here,
35
00:05:04,340 --> 00:05:08,629
and I've said, "Here are the darts,
aim for the eyes of the grey, fluffy kitten."
36
00:05:08,700 --> 00:05:12,625
It's just a bit of paper, but in some way,
you feel that you might,
37
00:05:12,700 --> 00:05:15,619
in a peculiar way you can't quite explain,
38
00:05:15,620 --> 00:05:19,059
be hurting some fluffy kitten,
somehow, somewhere.
39
00:05:19,060 --> 00:05:23,939
So I'm not suggesting to you that,
in the year 1377, or any time onwards,
40
00:05:23,940 --> 00:05:27,819
people felt, "Oh! They're moving!
They're real! They can hear me!"
41
00:05:27,820 --> 00:05:30,426
But with a same kind
of grey, fluffy kitten analogy,
42
00:05:30,500 --> 00:05:33,788
I am suggesting to you that
there is a very strong attachment
43
00:05:33,860 --> 00:05:38,627
between representation
and the thing itself.
44
00:05:38,700 --> 00:05:42,139
So we're now in the National Gallery,
having a look quite quietly,
45
00:05:42,140 --> 00:05:46,668
thinking about aesthetics and gold and
colours made from ground pigment.
46
00:05:47,660 --> 00:05:54,270
But what we must remember is how
this was originally intended to be seen.
47
00:05:54,340 --> 00:05:58,619
So, I've tried to sort of pull together
my first thoughts,
48
00:05:58,620 --> 00:06:00,539
and I don't mean this to be a criticism...
49
00:06:00,540 --> 00:06:02,747
I don't... I'm quite keen on criticism.
50
00:06:02,820 --> 00:06:05,539
No, I'm just trying to be very open here.
51
00:06:05,540 --> 00:06:08,271
I think what comes out of it
is that, as an organisation -
52
00:06:08,340 --> 00:06:10,659
I suppose that's probably
a bit why I'm here -
53
00:06:10,660 --> 00:06:13,539
our public voice is quite
weakly represented
54
00:06:13,540 --> 00:06:17,147
when we have forums together
and we're talking about things.
55
00:06:17,260 --> 00:06:20,150
And I kind of tried to chunk
that up this morning, of,
56
00:06:20,260 --> 00:06:22,786
"How does that manifest itself?"
57
00:06:22,860 --> 00:06:25,750
One is that just, quite simply,
I still find it quite amazing
58
00:06:25,820 --> 00:06:29,347
that we don't kind of really talk much
about the public and the visitors.
59
00:06:29,420 --> 00:06:34,108
But actually, I don't think that, when
it comes to a lot of what we talk about,
60
00:06:34,180 --> 00:06:35,739
in some of our meetings
61
00:06:35,740 --> 00:06:39,267
that actually are talking about
communications out to the public,
62
00:06:39,340 --> 00:06:43,140
we're not necessarily focusing on those
52 million people and their needs
63
00:06:43,260 --> 00:06:45,422
as much as I think we could be
and should be.
64
00:06:45,500 --> 00:06:48,504
It would be good to think
that we could foster a culture
65
00:06:48,580 --> 00:06:50,628
where we focus a little bit more on,
66
00:06:50,700 --> 00:06:53,619
you know, "What are our public needs
and how are we meeting them?"
67
00:06:53,620 --> 00:06:56,021
- Yeah.
- I was thinking... My next little diagram -
68
00:06:56,100 --> 00:06:59,229
this was all three o'clock in the morning,
son of stuff -
69
00:06:59,300 --> 00:07:02,339
I was thinking, if we are, you know,
the National Gallery,
70
00:07:02,340 --> 00:07:05,019
and we were talking about, you know,
Old Masters at our heart,
71
00:07:05,020 --> 00:07:08,308
and we are a number of things,
we're conservation, research,
72
00:07:08,380 --> 00:07:12,430
preservation, heritage, all around
the collection and education of it,
73
00:07:12,500 --> 00:07:18,064
we are also a visitor attraction, and I know
that word's horrid, but we are also that,
74
00:07:18,140 --> 00:07:24,671
and if our mission is to make our Old
Masters more central lo modern cultural life,
75
00:07:24,740 --> 00:07:27,220
then I think there needs
to be more of that dialogue
76
00:07:27,300 --> 00:07:30,139
around the audience as the centre as well.
77
00:07:30,140 --> 00:07:33,779
Still having art at the centre, but it's like
having another bubble that comes off,
78
00:07:33,780 --> 00:07:35,779
where we're looking
at those audience needs,
79
00:07:35,780 --> 00:07:37,862
and the conversations will talk about,
you know,
80
00:07:37,940 --> 00:07:41,859
how are people reacting to us emotionally,
in terms of their pleasure,
81
00:07:41,860 --> 00:07:44,511
in terms of intellectualism,
in terms of the academic side,
82
00:07:44,580 --> 00:07:46,628
in terms of self-development, spiritually?
83
00:07:46,700 --> 00:07:50,864
And those kind of conversations can help
inform the son of decision-making
84
00:07:50,940 --> 00:07:53,859
that we're doing in meetings
like that titian meeting yesterday.
85
00:07:53,860 --> 00:07:56,067
I thought that meeting yesterday
was fantastic,
86
00:07:56,140 --> 00:07:58,666
and I think the outcome
was absolutely right.
87
00:07:58,740 --> 00:08:02,870
But I think, going forward, it would be good
if we could have more conversation
88
00:08:02,940 --> 00:08:05,899
about the audience that are gonna...
what their needs are,
89
00:08:05,900 --> 00:08:09,621
and what our communications
need to reflect going forward.
90
00:08:09,700 --> 00:08:12,779
Alongside, you know,
what we want to say about the art,
91
00:08:12,780 --> 00:08:16,779
we also need to be thinking the end person
that's gonna see our communications.
92
00:08:16,780 --> 00:08:18,669
- Yeah.
- What are their needs?
93
00:08:18,740 --> 00:08:20,779
And I found some of the meetings
that we have,
94
00:08:20,780 --> 00:08:23,750
particularly the sort of, you know,
very large meetings,
95
00:08:23,820 --> 00:08:27,779
where perhaps a curator's standing up
and talking about a subject, is fantastic,
96
00:08:27,780 --> 00:08:31,579
but there needs to be the other dialogue
that goes on that then carries it on
97
00:08:31,580 --> 00:08:34,219
so we're not just seeing it
from "What's our perspective?"
98
00:08:34,220 --> 00:08:36,222
but "What's the perspective of the people
99
00:08:36,300 --> 00:08:38,871
"that are actually gonna see
what we're trying to show them
100
00:08:38,980 --> 00:08:41,347
"through our exhibitions
and marketing and stuff?"
101
00:08:41,420 --> 00:08:44,499
So my hope - and this is, you know,
if there's this opportunity
102
00:08:44,500 --> 00:08:47,709
to talk about one's vision going forward
with the trustees in June -
103
00:08:47,780 --> 00:08:51,785
my hope is that we can make that dialogue
more central to what we're doing
104
00:08:51,900 --> 00:08:55,019
at exec, and in some
of our exhibition meetings.
105
00:08:55,020 --> 00:08:59,150
And on my side, I'm trying to imbue,
you know, the marketing and PR side
106
00:08:59,260 --> 00:09:01,739
with more of that stepping back
107
00:09:01,740 --> 00:09:04,499
and actually looking at things
from the audience point of view.
108
00:09:04,500 --> 00:09:07,947
So it's a question of balance. I'm trying
to get, perhaps, a more balanced view,
109
00:09:08,060 --> 00:09:13,863
where our processes enable us to look
at the end user's needs, sort of thing...
110
00:09:13,980 --> 00:09:15,948
- Yes.
- ...alongside the curatorial needs.
111
00:09:16,060 --> 00:09:21,059
I understand all this. I would like to have
some examples of where you've felt...
112
00:09:21,060 --> 00:09:25,224
we've failed, or because we hadn't...
113
00:09:29,020 --> 00:09:30,499
done this...
114
00:09:30,500 --> 00:09:34,539
A lot of what we do is absolutely beautiful
in terms of exhibitions,
115
00:09:34,540 --> 00:09:37,271
lovely when it comes to the marketing,
beautiful imagery,
116
00:09:37,340 --> 00:09:39,502
absolutely gorgeous, high quality...
117
00:09:39,580 --> 00:09:42,899
But I think, because we're sometimes
not going through that process
118
00:09:42,900 --> 00:09:46,699
of thinking of it
from the audience perspective,
119
00:09:46,700 --> 00:09:49,067
we sometimes don't do that,
120
00:09:49,140 --> 00:09:52,019
what's - ugh - crudely called in marketing
a sort of call to action.
121
00:09:52,020 --> 00:09:54,739
We don't say, "This is the reason
why you must come and see it."
122
00:09:54,740 --> 00:09:57,107
Now, with something like Leonardo,
it does it itself.
123
00:09:57,180 --> 00:09:58,979
- Everybody wants to see it.
- Yeah.
124
00:09:58,980 --> 00:10:00,709
You could argue we should
have done less.
125
00:10:00,780 --> 00:10:02,499
No, no. So Leo isn't a good example.
126
00:10:02,500 --> 00:10:05,859
You've just got to put up that beautiful
picture and everybody wants to see it.
127
00:10:05,860 --> 00:10:10,059
But other things, we need to actually make
them come alive in a different way,
128
00:10:10,060 --> 00:10:12,819
because people don't get it immediately.
129
00:10:12,820 --> 00:10:15,266
They don't understand,
you know, what we offer.
130
00:10:15,340 --> 00:10:18,019
And it's part of that conversation
we had a few days ago about,
131
00:10:18,020 --> 00:10:19,863
"What's the National Gallery represent?"
132
00:10:19,940 --> 00:10:22,379
When you look at the research
we've done recently,
133
00:10:22,380 --> 00:10:27,147
people love the National Gallery when
they get here and they understand it,
134
00:10:27,260 --> 00:10:30,299
but to the average, sort of,
person on the street, as it were,
135
00:10:30,300 --> 00:10:33,739
they don't quite understand
what we are and what we've got.
136
00:10:33,740 --> 00:10:36,391
The fact we've got these amazing paintings,
they don't get it,
137
00:10:36,460 --> 00:10:38,542
cos we're quite discreet
in how we tell them that.
138
00:10:38,620 --> 00:10:42,750
You know, I do have
some prejudices to overcome.
139
00:10:42,860 --> 00:10:47,661
What I don't want is to end up
with the gallery...
140
00:10:49,500 --> 00:10:53,779
producing things to the kind of lowest
common denominator of public taste.
141
00:10:53,780 --> 00:10:56,099
But I don't even want the kind of av...
142
00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:59,468
I mean, I'd rather have
spectacular success followed by...
143
00:11:02,340 --> 00:11:04,979
sort of, really interesting failure,
144
00:11:04,980 --> 00:11:07,301
- than have kind of average, you know'?
- No...
145
00:11:07,380 --> 00:11:10,145
In fact, I'm quite in favour
of those things going up and down.
146
00:11:10,260 --> 00:11:11,500
OK, thanks.
147
00:11:11,580 --> 00:11:11,699
I'm going to try something
a little bit new today,
148
00:11:11,700 --> 00:11:15,019
I'm going to try something
a little bit new today,
149
00:11:15,020 --> 00:11:17,910
which is because the painting is slight...
150
00:11:17,980 --> 00:11:22,304
is sort of rather more abstract
than most of the ones we talk about.
151
00:11:22,380 --> 00:11:28,501
So we're going to have a bit of a go
with some touch drawings.
152
00:11:28,580 --> 00:11:32,699
I... I son of made a very, sort of,
153
00:11:32,700 --> 00:11:35,783
simple sketch of the main structures
of the picture
154
00:11:35,860 --> 00:11:40,860
and then put it through this very exciting
machine that heats it up and it all goes furry.
155
00:11:41,740 --> 00:11:47,065
I don't know whether it's going to work
for you, but I just thought it was worth a try
156
00:11:47,140 --> 00:11:51,739
and that it might help some people
get the overall structure of the picture,
157
00:11:51,740 --> 00:11:55,381
which is not a narrative painting
or a painting with great detail.
158
00:11:55,460 --> 00:12:00,068
So the sort of abstract shapes
within it are quite useful,
159
00:12:00,140 --> 00:12:02,899
to, sort of, get a sense of.
160
00:12:02,900 --> 00:12:07,269
And then we'll move on to
a normal reproduction as well.
161
00:12:07,340 --> 00:12:09,979
- If you could possibly...
- I'll pass those around.
162
00:12:09,980 --> 00:12:13,701
Thank you.
Raised image here.
163
00:12:15,860 --> 00:12:18,830
Professor Whitestick,
I'll be back in a minute.
164
00:12:20,780 --> 00:12:23,226
Raised image here.
165
00:12:32,940 --> 00:12:37,940
So, today we're talking about Camille
Pissarro's Boulevard Montmartre at Night.
166
00:12:40,500 --> 00:12:45,540
It was made in 1897,
so just over a hundred years ago.
167
00:12:45,620 --> 00:12:50,059
Certainly, the viewpoint he takes,
which is a viewpoint from a hotel window,
168
00:12:50,060 --> 00:12:53,819
high above, an aerial viewpoint
of these streets,
169
00:12:53,820 --> 00:12:57,019
adds to the sense of someone
who's a little bit distant.
170
00:12:57,020 --> 00:13:00,388
Whereas his colleagues
would have a viewpoint like that
171
00:13:00,460 --> 00:13:02,827
but include, somehow,
a sense of themselves,
172
00:13:02,900 --> 00:13:05,739
even if it was just
a bit of balcony or whatever,
173
00:13:05,740 --> 00:13:08,819
he... you just get no sense
of the window frame,
174
00:13:08,820 --> 00:13:11,059
no sense of his presence,
175
00:13:11,060 --> 00:13:14,587
and the whole thing is viewed,
you know, at a distance.
176
00:13:14,660 --> 00:13:17,739
And the particular painting
we're looking at,
177
00:13:17,740 --> 00:13:22,348
though it was one of a whole series
of 14 of the Boulevard Montmartre...
178
00:13:22,420 --> 00:13:27,028
He went for these big campaigns,
painting a lot of pictures at once,
179
00:13:27,100 --> 00:13:29,899
trying to capture the changing light effects,
180
00:13:29,900 --> 00:13:31,899
so he might have several paintings
on the go.
181
00:13:31,900 --> 00:13:35,979
But this is an exceptional one,
because it's the only night-time one.
182
00:13:35,980 --> 00:13:39,019
His work's always a little bit dappled,
you might say,
183
00:13:39,020 --> 00:13:41,500
and full of little brushstrokes,
184
00:13:41,580 --> 00:13:46,179
but in this one, nothing is very clear
because it's dark and it's been raining,
185
00:13:46,180 --> 00:13:51,180
and all the sort of things that can be seen
are sort of merged together
186
00:13:51,300 --> 00:13:56,022
in this great sort of watery pool
of colour, light and shape.
187
00:13:56,100 --> 00:14:00,379
What we're thinking about
is the general structure of the picture,
188
00:14:00,380 --> 00:14:03,659
and we're thinking about it a bit like a flag.
189
00:14:03,660 --> 00:14:08,507
So you're seeing an aerial view
of a street scene.
190
00:14:09,540 --> 00:14:13,147
At the front of the picture is the...
191
00:14:13,260 --> 00:14:17,739
is an upside-down V
going in towards the middle.
192
00:14:17,740 --> 00:14:21,347
So it's a flag divided into four triangles.
193
00:14:21,420 --> 00:14:26,139
The bottom, upside-down V triangle
is the street.
194
00:14:26,140 --> 00:14:28,939
So it's basically a great whoosh of space,
195
00:14:28,940 --> 00:14:33,739
leading towards the point
where all the triangles converge,
196
00:14:33,740 --> 00:14:36,505
which is exactly halfway down the picture.
197
00:14:36,580 --> 00:14:41,580
And then, the right-hand side is a V with
its apex meeting the disappearing point,
198
00:14:44,540 --> 00:14:48,147
and then, the left-hand side
is a triangle on its left-hand side,
199
00:14:48,260 --> 00:14:50,831
and then, the top is a real V,
200
00:14:50,900 --> 00:14:53,739
and that, of course, represents the sky.
201
00:14:53,740 --> 00:14:58,621
Take both your hands and put them
son of at the top of the picture,
202
00:14:58,700 --> 00:15:00,065
and then come down a bit.
203
00:15:00,140 --> 00:15:03,739
If you go from the top corners,
and then down a little bit,
204
00:15:03,740 --> 00:15:09,622
and then you move your hands
inwards and downwards,
205
00:15:09,700 --> 00:15:12,590
following the diagonals...
206
00:15:12,660 --> 00:15:15,779
Can you feel the tops of the buildings?
207
00:15:15,780 --> 00:15:18,306
I've only put the main sort of forms in.
208
00:15:18,380 --> 00:15:20,699
And above that is an empty space,
209
00:15:20,700 --> 00:15:26,343
which is a beautiful, deep, soft, smoky,
dark bluey-mauve
210
00:15:26,420 --> 00:15:28,699
that dominates the painting.
211
00:15:28,700 --> 00:15:30,539
So that's the sky.
212
00:15:30,540 --> 00:15:37,150
Take that line of the tops of the buildings
and go to the... where the two lines meet.
213
00:15:37,260 --> 00:15:40,499
Do you see that they meet
at a sort of bubble,
214
00:15:40,500 --> 00:15:42,299
where the lines converge?
215
00:15:42,300 --> 00:15:46,862
Yes? So that's
the sort of disappearing point.
216
00:15:46,940 --> 00:15:52,947
And he punctuates that
with a tiny little dot of light.
217
00:15:53,740 --> 00:15:57,739
So, overall, it's a really dark picture.
218
00:15:57,740 --> 00:16:02,740
It's almost like a sort of semi-transparent
curtain's been drawn over the whole scene,
219
00:16:03,540 --> 00:16:05,508
and it's very much nighttime.
220
00:16:05,580 --> 00:16:10,139
And yet, it's punctuated all over the place
by these flares of light.
221
00:16:10,140 --> 00:16:13,030
And they sort of emphasize the structure
222
00:16:13,100 --> 00:16:17,539
and give a sense of excitement
of this son of city scene,
223
00:16:17,540 --> 00:16:20,059
which is a great characteristic
of this picture.
224
00:16:20,060 --> 00:16:25,060
So, not surprisingly, the furthest light
of a great line of streetlights,
225
00:16:25,500 --> 00:16:31,507
the furthest light is at the point
where all these triangles converge.
226
00:16:31,580 --> 00:16:36,580
It's almost like a sort of great symphony
to light in darkness, there.
227
00:16:38,300 --> 00:16:41,539
And there are all these people,
out there on the street.
228
00:16:41,540 --> 00:16:44,305
I've read people son of trying
to make something
229
00:16:44,380 --> 00:16:47,139
of this being something
to do with his anarchism as well.
230
00:16:47,140 --> 00:16:51,019
Certainly, in the paintings
where you can see more clearly,
231
00:16:51,020 --> 00:16:54,342
the daylight pictures, he does make...
232
00:16:54,420 --> 00:16:59,790
he does ensure that he defines the different
people and their different social class.
233
00:16:59,860 --> 00:17:04,502
So you see people with top hats,
you see people who are selling things,
234
00:17:04,580 --> 00:17:06,389
you know, you see all sorts.
235
00:17:06,460 --> 00:17:10,819
In this picture, you don't get that,
because it's all so ill-defined.
236
00:17:10,820 --> 00:17:17,829
But he is unlike many of his colleagues
in that he does show all strata of society.
237
00:17:30,580 --> 00:17:32,548
238
00:17:44,860 --> 00:17:47,459
Remember to keep
looking around you.
239
00:17:47,460 --> 00:17:49,110
Always look around. Be careful, though.
240
00:17:49,180 --> 00:17:51,379
Let's go nice and slowly, don't run.
241
00:17:51,380 --> 00:17:53,986
I don't want you to fall over.
242
00:18:00,420 --> 00:18:03,310
It doesn't have a magic carpet next to it,
but it is the painting.
243
00:18:03,380 --> 00:18:05,348
Please, have a seat.
244
00:18:09,020 --> 00:18:11,910
So this is the story of Moses.
245
00:18:13,100 --> 00:18:16,343
It's the story about how a little baby boy
is sent down the river
246
00:18:16,420 --> 00:18:19,310
and then picked up again,
given to the princess,
247
00:18:19,380 --> 00:18:21,419
who gives it back to the mother,
248
00:18:21,420 --> 00:18:25,499
and he grows up to be an amazing
and fantastic person.
249
00:18:25,500 --> 00:18:30,500
Now, if you like the story of Moses, you
might like to see more stories about Moses.
250
00:18:32,020 --> 00:18:35,741
And there are lots of other storm
about Moses in the National Gallery.
251
00:18:35,820 --> 00:18:38,699
But if you think to yourself,
"I've had it up to here with Moses,
252
00:18:38,700 --> 00:18:40,859
"I'm sick of Moses,
I want to see somebody else,"
253
00:18:40,860 --> 00:18:44,459
there's lots of other stories you might wanna
learn about in the National Gallery.
254
00:18:44,460 --> 00:18:47,499
There are people writing.
255
00:18:47,500 --> 00:18:51,107
There are people eating
and being surprised.
256
00:18:51,180 --> 00:18:53,699
There are people -
you might not believe this -
257
00:18:53,700 --> 00:18:56,499
there's an old man over there
who's being fed by ravens.
258
00:18:56,500 --> 00:18:59,939
There's a raven, a little black bird,
that's giving him his food.
259
00:18:59,940 --> 00:19:04,821
All these amazing stories
in National Gallery paintings for you to see.
260
00:19:15,860 --> 00:19:20,699
This is a portrait
which was commissioned by Henry
261
00:19:20,700 --> 00:19:24,939
lo fulfill another one
of his demands, really,
262
00:19:24,940 --> 00:19:30,151
to, as I say, to son of almost
meet Christina by proxy
263
00:19:30,260 --> 00:19:32,019
through the medium of the portrait,
264
00:19:32,020 --> 00:19:34,579
so that he could decide
whether he wanted to marry her.
265
00:19:34,580 --> 00:19:40,622
So Holbein is dispatched to Brussels
in March 1538.
266
00:19:40,700 --> 00:19:46,150
This is following the death of Henry VIII's
third wife, Jane Seymour.
267
00:19:46,260 --> 00:19:51,260
And Henry is sort of desperately trying
to identify a suitable fourth wife.
268
00:19:51,940 --> 00:19:54,750
Holbein arrives, Hans Holbein,
269
00:19:54,820 --> 00:19:58,619
sent by the King of England,
to paint a portrait
270
00:19:58,620 --> 00:20:02,059
on the understanding
that if it satisfies the King,
271
00:20:02,060 --> 00:20:06,579
she's then going to go over to London
and become the Queen of England.
272
00:20:06,580 --> 00:20:09,311
Henry is said to have fallen in love with it,
273
00:20:09,380 --> 00:20:14,380
and to have been very, very keen
to arrange the marriage.
274
00:20:14,900 --> 00:20:16,584
But that doesn't happen.
275
00:20:16,660 --> 00:20:21,499
There's an anecdotal statement-
we don't know whether this is true -
276
00:20:21,500 --> 00:20:25,221
that Christina herself
said to the English envoy,
277
00:20:25,300 --> 00:20:30,591
"if I had two heads, one should be
at the disposal of the King of England."
278
00:20:30,660 --> 00:20:33,699
So it seems that she herself had a sense
279
00:20:33,700 --> 00:20:37,068
that this wouldn't necessarily
be a good match for her.
280
00:20:37,140 --> 00:20:40,059
And, ultimately, Henry gave up.
281
00:20:40,060 --> 00:20:43,621
This is a very sort of simple picture
in its composition.
282
00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:46,699
The sort of frontal pose
is very deliberate here,
283
00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:51,379
so that Henry could actually sort of see
exactly what she looked like,
284
00:20:51,380 --> 00:20:55,590
no sort of profile view that's hiding
any blemishes or imperfections.
285
00:20:55,660 --> 00:20:58,339
But the use of light
across the features, again,
286
00:20:58,340 --> 00:21:03,340
is very, very subtle
and carefully modulated
287
00:21:03,460 --> 00:21:06,111
so that there's a hint of an expression,
288
00:21:06,180 --> 00:21:08,459
there's a hint of animation in her features.
289
00:21:08,460 --> 00:21:13,261
She seems to be ever so subtly
sort of wryly observing the artist
290
00:21:13,340 --> 00:21:15,499
as she observes him.
291
00:21:15,500 --> 00:21:18,539
And I always feel, looking at this painting,
this portrait,
292
00:21:18,540 --> 00:21:22,750
that this really is a young woman
fully in possession of her faculties.
293
00:21:22,820 --> 00:21:26,459
Very intelligent, squarely facing the world,
294
00:21:26,460 --> 00:21:30,019
and ready for anything
that the world might throw at her.
295
00:21:30,020 --> 00:21:33,149
So I'll stop there and say
thank you very much and goodbye.
296
00:21:33,260 --> 00:21:33,379
How did Leonardo da Vinci start off
with a blank panel and a palette of oil paints
297
00:21:33,380 --> 00:21:38,380
How did Leonardo da Vinci start off
with a blank panel and a palette of oil paints
298
00:21:39,860 --> 00:21:43,865
and create a painting
of such sublime beauty'?
299
00:21:44,740 --> 00:21:48,062
If you just look
at that flower in the comer there,
300
00:21:48,140 --> 00:21:49,939
how did that happen?
301
00:21:49,940 --> 00:21:54,901
It's this wonderful mixture
of observation and imagination.
302
00:21:56,860 --> 00:21:58,379
What was in the artist's...
303
00:21:58,380 --> 00:22:03,179
What was Velazquez�s intention
on painting Venus with her back to us,
304
00:22:03,180 --> 00:22:05,911
but with that bewitching look in the mirror?
305
00:22:07,740 --> 00:22:09,699
And how did Stubbs achieve
306
00:22:09,700 --> 00:22:13,619
such an anatomically accurate
representation of a horse?
307
00:22:13,620 --> 00:22:16,619
This painting is huge, so physically,
308
00:22:16,620 --> 00:22:19,739
there must have been great challenges
in painting it.
309
00:22:19,740 --> 00:22:22,739
But artistically, look at the detail,
310
00:22:22,740 --> 00:22:26,426
look at the observation
that the artist was able to represent.
311
00:22:28,140 --> 00:22:33,140
And what was in Van Gogh's mind when
he painted this glorious vase of sunflowers,
312
00:22:33,300 --> 00:22:36,339
with its brilliant use of colour
to convey mood?
313
00:22:36,340 --> 00:22:40,061
Just look at the number of colours
that are in this painting.
314
00:22:40,140 --> 00:22:42,859
It's really yellow and green,
315
00:22:42,860 --> 00:22:46,739
but with this amazing blue stripe through it,
316
00:22:46,740 --> 00:22:48,979
and a blue frame to the vase.
317
00:22:48,980 --> 00:22:55,226
And how does that use of blue, juxtaposed
against that great splurge of yellow,
318
00:22:55,300 --> 00:22:57,780
represent something in the artist's mind?
319
00:22:58,740 --> 00:23:03,099
All of it, really, is about looking,
and about reflecting,
320
00:23:03,100 --> 00:23:06,539
and about learning ways
to decode paintings
321
00:23:06,540 --> 00:23:09,589
and understand what
the artist's intention was.
322
00:23:09,660 --> 00:23:11,779
And however you look at a painting,
323
00:23:11,780 --> 00:23:15,099
whether it's through a very
art historical perspective,
324
00:23:15,100 --> 00:23:19,788
or whether it's through looking at its history
and how it came to be at the gallery,
325
00:23:19,860 --> 00:23:23,419
or whether it's through looking
at colour or form or composition,
326
00:23:23,420 --> 00:23:26,583
this gallery provides you
with wonderful opportunities
327
00:23:26,660 --> 00:23:29,099
to explore the human condition.
328
00:23:29,100 --> 00:23:34,100
And we hope, with Take One Picture, that
it's not just about knowledge and learning.
329
00:23:34,500 --> 00:23:36,264
That's one half of it.
330
00:23:36,340 --> 00:23:41,340
The other half of it is finding your own
creative response to the paintings,
331
00:23:42,460 --> 00:23:46,067
finding ways in which these paintings
have a relevance to you today.
332
00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:50,019
And I think many of you
will go back into your schools
333
00:23:50,020 --> 00:23:52,751
and find a whole myriad of ways
334
00:23:52,820 --> 00:23:57,820
to give your pupils the chance
to do this very same exploration.
335
00:23:57,940 --> 00:24:00,102
336
00:24:53,100 --> 00:24:55,579
No, it's nice to see it up here.
337
00:24:55,580 --> 00:24:58,345
I think that you should make a proposal.
338
00:24:59,260 --> 00:25:00,579
- That it be cleaned.
- Do you?
339
00:25:00,580 --> 00:25:02,230
- Yeah, yeah.
- For... Well, that's...
340
00:25:02,300 --> 00:25:06,699
So just state that it would benefit
from a good cleaning and restoration.
341
00:25:06,700 --> 00:25:09,579
I'm bothered by all the retouching up here.
342
00:25:09,580 --> 00:25:12,099
I'm bothered by all the retouching,
evident retouching,
343
00:25:12,100 --> 00:25:15,309
- in the mantle of the Madonna, of the blue.
- Yeah, yeah. But it...
344
00:25:15,380 --> 00:25:17,539
Which is not nearly so...
345
00:25:17,540 --> 00:25:19,459
- But I do see that.
- Her mouth...
346
00:25:19,460 --> 00:25:21,064
- And also...
- Yeah.
347
00:25:21,140 --> 00:25:25,539
Is this retouching?
Or is ii crazed varnish?
348
00:25:25,540 --> 00:25:27,269
- Crazed varnish.
- Just crazed varnish.
349
00:25:27,340 --> 00:25:28,939
- Similarly, round her mouth.
- Yeah.
350
00:25:28,940 --> 00:25:31,227
Actually, look, that's ground.
That honey colour.
351
00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:33,539
He's dragged the lighter colour
across the shadow.
352
00:25:33,540 --> 00:25:35,619
- Yeah.
- Then there's that little orangey bit.
353
00:25:35,620 --> 00:25:37,748
- That's ground. Absolutely.
- Yes. Yes.
354
00:25:37,820 --> 00:25:39,629
- Yeah.
- Ya.
355
00:25:42,580 --> 00:25:44,708
- Not retouching.
- No.
356
00:27:00,060 --> 00:27:04,579
This is the story
of Samson and Delilah,
357
00:27:04,580 --> 00:27:07,982
Old Testament story, in which we are told
358
00:27:09,940 --> 00:27:14,309
how the Philistines want
to bring down the power of the Israelites.
359
00:27:14,380 --> 00:27:17,179
And, in particular, to break Samson.
360
00:27:17,180 --> 00:27:21,071
So they're going to advance
their secret weapon, Delilah,
361
00:27:21,140 --> 00:27:26,140
and have her seduce Samson
so that they can destroy the Israelites.
362
00:27:27,340 --> 00:27:30,339
So, in a sense, you've got a spy story.
363
00:27:30,340 --> 00:27:35,340
You've got the beautiful spy
going off to sleep with the enemy.
364
00:27:35,740 --> 00:27:39,939
And in the Biblical account,
we're told how, time after time,
365
00:27:39,940 --> 00:27:43,706
she goes to his campaign lent,
all decked up and looking gorgeous,
366
00:27:43,780 --> 00:27:48,581
trying to find out where his strength lies.
367
00:27:48,660 --> 00:27:53,499
Time after time after time, he lies,
368
00:27:53,500 --> 00:27:56,979
but his desire for her becomes so great
369
00:27:56,980 --> 00:28:01,499
that, bit by bit, visit after visit,
370
00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:05,027
he finally tells her.
371
00:28:06,540 --> 00:28:11,102
I want all of you to imagine
that you are a spy,
372
00:28:11,180 --> 00:28:16,180
and that you have been sent
by your people, your tribe, your nation,
373
00:28:16,780 --> 00:28:21,780
to be very nice
and get secrets out of the enemy.
374
00:28:22,980 --> 00:28:25,539
So, first of all, the enemy is the enemy.
375
00:28:25,540 --> 00:28:30,540
But after you've had a drink or two,
a meal, chat with the enemy,
376
00:28:31,980 --> 00:28:34,459
and pretended to love the enemy,
377
00:28:34,460 --> 00:28:38,590
you are beginning to feel differently
towards the enemy.
378
00:28:38,660 --> 00:28:43,660
And what has been pretended...
might become real.
379
00:28:43,700 --> 00:28:46,379
It messes with your mind.
380
00:28:46,380 --> 00:28:51,379
And I think Rubens, who's this painter
of great psychological import,
381
00:28:51,380 --> 00:28:56,466
has realized what's going on
in the mind of Delilah.
382
00:28:57,140 --> 00:29:02,140
She has pretended to,
and perhaps eventually come to feel, love.
383
00:29:02,980 --> 00:29:07,542
And she has finally slept with Samson.
384
00:29:09,020 --> 00:29:11,466
He has fallen asleep. This can happen.
385
00:29:12,340 --> 00:29:14,779
-
- And...
386
00:29:14,780 --> 00:29:19,780
she knows that this consummation
of his desire
387
00:29:19,900 --> 00:29:23,871
is going to lead directly to his death.
388
00:29:24,740 --> 00:29:28,059
The Philistines are emerging
through the open door there,
389
00:29:28,060 --> 00:29:31,348
flames shining, reflecting on their armour.
390
00:29:31,420 --> 00:29:35,823
We've got this kind
of hermetic sealant of curtain,
391
00:29:35,900 --> 00:29:38,744
purple, rich purple curtain, hanging,
392
00:29:38,820 --> 00:29:41,779
the rich scarlet of her dress,
393
00:29:41,780 --> 00:29:46,739
the gold of her cloak,
making this hot and rich.
394
00:29:46,740 --> 00:29:51,587
Various light sources are adding to this,
plus the covert haircut.
395
00:29:51,660 --> 00:29:54,619
The candle is being held
by this old woman,
396
00:29:54,620 --> 00:29:59,579
and very carefully, the barber
is making his first incision.
397
00:29:59,580 --> 00:30:03,301
We're not looking at a Delilah triumphant,
398
00:30:03,380 --> 00:30:06,779
she's not going, "Yes! Gotcha!" is she?
399
00:30:06,780 --> 00:30:10,059
She's looking ambiguous.
400
00:30:10,060 --> 00:30:15,060
She is bending tenderly over him,
with, perhaps, a look of dismay.
401
00:30:15,100 --> 00:30:18,939
I'm not going to tell you what you think
she's feeling, we'll all read it differently,
402
00:30:18,940 --> 00:30:21,102
but her body is leaning away.
403
00:30:21,180 --> 00:30:23,499
On the one hand,
literally on the left hand,
404
00:30:23,500 --> 00:30:26,071
there's a tender gesture of hand on back.
405
00:30:26,140 --> 00:30:28,579
But the other hand is away from him.
406
00:30:28,580 --> 00:30:33,019
It really is on the one hand,
and on the other.
407
00:30:33,020 --> 00:30:38,020
She has, over the time that
she has been trying to seduce Samson,
408
00:30:39,500 --> 00:30:44,500
as any human being would, gone through
a series of mental transformations.
409
00:30:44,620 --> 00:30:47,146
It must be very distressing, now,
410
00:30:47,260 --> 00:30:52,260
to realize that the man
that she has just had these relations with
411
00:30:53,860 --> 00:30:58,860
is now going to die,
directly as a consequence of her actions.
412
00:31:00,540 --> 00:31:03,066
She has,
and I'm hesitating to use this word,
413
00:31:03,140 --> 00:31:05,939
she has betrayed him.
414
00:31:05,940 --> 00:31:09,342
But then she must think to herself,
"But, no.
415
00:31:09,420 --> 00:31:12,742
"I was working for my country.
416
00:31:12,820 --> 00:31:16,019
"To have done otherwise
would have been to betray my country."
417
00:31:16,020 --> 00:31:20,939
It's about betrayal, it's about notions
of one's tribe or people,
418
00:31:20,940 --> 00:31:23,939
and about what, perhaps,
might be happening in the mind
419
00:31:23,940 --> 00:31:26,979
of anyone put into this kind of position.
420
00:31:26,980 --> 00:31:31,939
But imagine, if you 'will, now, going
into the house of the bürgermeister,
421
00:31:31,940 --> 00:31:34,579
and seeing this above his fireplace.
422
00:31:34,580 --> 00:31:38,301
And there you would be,
with, you know, the bürgermeister,
423
00:31:38,380 --> 00:31:43,944
with a rather large painting behind you
of Delilah with her breasts uncovered.
424
00:31:44,860 --> 00:31:46,100
What would you say?
425
00:32:28,180 --> 00:32:32,699
You have to view paintings,
or narrative paintings, as early films,
426
00:32:32,700 --> 00:32:34,699
and as forms of entertainment.
427
00:32:34,700 --> 00:32:38,739
So the artist to decide at what point
in the story are they going...
428
00:32:38,740 --> 00:32:40,939
is he or she going to focus on?
429
00:32:40,940 --> 00:32:43,147
So again, when you come to your work,
430
00:32:43,260 --> 00:32:46,499
when you've had all your different ideas,
you have to sift through.
431
00:32:46,500 --> 00:32:50,346
Which moment? What point?
What's the climax?
432
00:32:50,420 --> 00:32:54,744
What, to you, is the most important thing
that you can communicate?
433
00:32:54,820 --> 00:32:59,059
And how can you interpret
that form of encounters, experiences,
434
00:32:59,060 --> 00:33:01,459
or chance meetings the best?
435
00:33:01,460 --> 00:33:03,622
Paintings are very, very ambiguous.
436
00:33:03,700 --> 00:33:07,739
You can look at them in one way,
you can interpret them in another.
437
00:33:07,740 --> 00:33:12,099
And as your experiences change - and
I know, because I come in here every day -
438
00:33:12,100 --> 00:33:16,583
paintings change,
and how you look at them changes as well.
439
00:33:46,380 --> 00:33:49,539
Can we get straight on
to the proposed Sport Relief?
440
00:33:49,540 --> 00:33:52,669
I don't see that the use of the portico
for various purposes
441
00:33:52,740 --> 00:33:57,419
is much different from the idea of projecting
things onto the front of the gallery,
442
00:33:57,420 --> 00:34:00,663
which we've always,
you know, resolutely objected to,
443
00:34:00,740 --> 00:34:03,859
on the grounds that, you know,
it's a tremendous opportunity for us
444
00:34:03,860 --> 00:34:07,459
if we're doing something for the gallery.
445
00:34:07,460 --> 00:34:09,699
I mean, there are various ways
of looking at it.
446
00:34:09,700 --> 00:34:13,379
But I think the right decision was that we
should not have people projecting things,
447
00:34:13,380 --> 00:34:16,499
using our fa�ade as a billboard, if you like.
448
00:34:16,500 --> 00:34:20,659
When... because it diminishes the impact
of any occasion when we wish to do it.
449
00:34:20,660 --> 00:34:23,140
But it also just looks
as if we're up for sale, you know?
450
00:34:23,260 --> 00:34:26,699
I mean, frankly... I mean, I know there's
an alternative way of looking at it,
451
00:34:26,700 --> 00:34:31,700
which is that everyone, you know...
it gains publicity for the... for the gallery,
452
00:34:31,780 --> 00:34:35,148
but does it, actually...
get the right type of publicity'?
453
00:34:35,260 --> 00:34:38,819
The right type of recognition?
I mean, this is the interesting question.
454
00:34:38,820 --> 00:34:42,381
I'm inclined to say no, because,
obviously, a very worthy charity,
455
00:34:42,460 --> 00:34:44,979
but is it more worthy
than a hundred other charities?
456
00:34:44,980 --> 00:34:47,819
One of the things
that we need to balance it, again,
457
00:34:47,820 --> 00:34:51,347
is the profile aspect of it,
is that it's an opportunity for us, potentially,
458
00:34:51,420 --> 00:34:53,659
to take a little bit more involvement,
if you like,
459
00:34:53,660 --> 00:34:57,267
in something that has the potential
to be broadcast to 18 million viewers.
460
00:34:57,340 --> 00:34:59,379
And I think that's the balance, isn't it'?
461
00:34:59,380 --> 00:35:01,579
You know, is... are we...
462
00:35:01,580 --> 00:35:05,346
are we either happy not to align ourselves
with these chosen charities
463
00:35:05,420 --> 00:35:08,979
or do we think,
"It's going to happen anyway.
464
00:35:08,980 --> 00:35:12,382
"Should we perhaps try and take
a bit more ownership of it and..."
465
00:35:12,460 --> 00:35:15,299
- What's going to happen anyway?
- Well, the event is.
466
00:35:15,300 --> 00:35:17,739
We weren't consulted about
whether we wanted something
467
00:35:17,740 --> 00:35:19,859
to obstruct the access
to the National Gallery.
468
00:35:19,860 --> 00:35:21,939
We'd never have said,
'We want a marathon to end
469
00:35:21,940 --> 00:35:23,465
"in front of the National Gallery."
470
00:35:23,540 --> 00:35:26,699
Because a marathon, the end of a marathon
involves people on either side,
471
00:35:26,700 --> 00:35:28,739
so you can't get into the National Gallery.
472
00:35:28,740 --> 00:35:30,344
So someone else has made the decision
473
00:35:30,420 --> 00:35:33,151
we're a great place
for the end of a marathon.
474
00:35:33,260 --> 00:35:37,099
That's... And now, it's got so we're told
it's going to happen anyway.
475
00:35:37,100 --> 00:35:39,699
Well, I want to be involved in the decision
476
00:35:39,700 --> 00:35:42,988
as to whether the National Gallery
is the right place for ending a marathon.
477
00:35:43,060 --> 00:35:46,739
And I'm not, instead, someone else
is making that decision,
478
00:35:46,740 --> 00:35:49,619
'We're going to end a marathon
in front of the National Gallery."
479
00:35:49,620 --> 00:35:52,271
Then we're being told, 'Well,
since it'll happen anyway,
480
00:35:52,340 --> 00:35:54,339
"no one'll be able to get
into the gallery,
481
00:35:54,340 --> 00:35:56,339
"can we have a marvelous
photo opportunity
482
00:35:56,340 --> 00:35:59,699
"to show that in fact, the National Gallery
is all about Sports Relief?"
483
00:35:59,700 --> 00:36:02,579
I mean... And also, you say, you know,
"chosen charities".
484
00:36:02,580 --> 00:36:05,231
Who's going to choose them?
I mean, it's going to be a...
485
00:36:05,300 --> 00:36:09,739
I do have a hell of a lot of requests
to use the gallery for charitable purposes.
486
00:36:09,740 --> 00:36:12,619
I mean, one problem with this, of course,
is also that, you know,
487
00:36:12,620 --> 00:36:17,581
the whole question of a charity...
which we are,
488
00:36:18,580 --> 00:36:22,619
assist... you know, using its facilities
and everything for another charity,
489
00:36:22,620 --> 00:36:25,226
which trustees are, you know,
very concerned about.
490
00:36:25,300 --> 00:36:28,939
It's always a worry of ours that...
491
00:36:28,940 --> 00:36:30,659
You know, when people have asked
492
00:36:30,660 --> 00:36:33,425
if they can have charitable events
within the National Gallery,
493
00:36:33,500 --> 00:36:35,459
- we've always...
- We don't do that.
494
00:36:35,460 --> 00:36:39,339
But we appear in the backdrop,
with our banners, like it or not.
495
00:36:39,340 --> 00:36:42,699
And that's just part of the London...
that's part of that landmark.
496
00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:48,742
So this race, I imagine,
will end in Trafalgar Square,
497
00:36:50,500 --> 00:36:51,859
and I...
498
00:36:51,860 --> 00:36:56,388
You know, you can imagine the footage,
the filming of an individual,
499
00:36:56,460 --> 00:37:00,699
running up towards Trafalgar Square,
to the north terrace.
500
00:37:00,700 --> 00:37:02,111
We'll be in the backdrop.
501
00:37:02,180 --> 00:37:04,699
I just feel that the National Gallery
is a whole...
502
00:37:04,700 --> 00:37:07,739
- It closes the whole end of this square.
- Mm.
503
00:37:07,740 --> 00:37:10,779
And all these events are going on,
all these things are being planned
504
00:37:10,780 --> 00:37:13,659
- without us being properly involved.
- Consulted.
505
00:37:13,660 --> 00:37:16,231
And that all we say is at the last minute,
you know,
506
00:37:16,300 --> 00:37:18,939
"Well, it's gonna happen anyway,
so can we just use it?"
507
00:37:18,940 --> 00:37:22,342
- Jill, you're...
- Yeah, and I think we should use this.
508
00:37:22,420 --> 00:37:25,579
And Greg and I go back to Westminster
and just use this as an example
509
00:37:25,580 --> 00:37:27,859
of things that they have to talk to us about,
510
00:37:27,860 --> 00:37:29,779
so that we're
much more joined up with them,
511
00:37:29,780 --> 00:37:31,350
because we need more notice on this,
512
00:37:31,420 --> 00:37:34,579
so I think we should pick that up
as an action point if you support that.
513
00:37:34,580 --> 00:37:36,389
- I totally do, yes.
- Yeah!
514
00:37:36,460 --> 00:37:38,940
And it would be a good example
to be able to quote.
515
00:37:39,020 --> 00:37:41,419
I supported Julie when
we first heard about this,
516
00:37:41,420 --> 00:37:44,059
cos I thought the exposure is fantastic,
517
00:37:44,060 --> 00:37:47,099
and it is very populist and it actually
gets us to 18 million people,
518
00:37:47,100 --> 00:37:49,699
and it's therefore a good association,
519
00:37:49,700 --> 00:37:52,067
and my only concern in this
520
00:37:52,140 --> 00:37:56,139
is that obviously, it is setting a precedent
in terms of charities, so it does...
521
00:37:56,140 --> 00:37:58,659
you know, in associating
with charities to a degree.
522
00:37:58,660 --> 00:38:00,739
And that was the only struggle
I've had with it,
523
00:38:00,740 --> 00:38:03,739
of how to then actually say no
to other organizations.
524
00:38:03,740 --> 00:38:07,267
Whereas before, we can be very cut...
you know, cut and dry on it.
525
00:38:07,340 --> 00:38:10,179
But outside of that,
if you're able to get round that,
526
00:38:10,180 --> 00:38:12,819
or felt that we could associate with it
and it's a one-off,
527
00:38:12,820 --> 00:38:14,779
and that we're not going
to do this as a habit,
528
00:38:14,780 --> 00:38:16,619
I think it actually could be quite doable.
529
00:38:16,620 --> 00:38:19,385
I mean, I would have thought
that at this relatively early stage,
530
00:38:19,460 --> 00:38:21,459
we'd be at a point where,
if we wanted to do it,
531
00:38:21,460 --> 00:38:23,859
we could work with them
so we actually make it possible.
532
00:38:23,860 --> 00:38:26,261
So it's only a half-hour shot
of an interview,
533
00:38:26,340 --> 00:38:28,699
and maybe one can keep
the portico open
534
00:38:28,700 --> 00:38:30,979
by having people directed
through a different way.
535
00:38:30,980 --> 00:38:33,819
I mean, I think if we believed in it,
we could make it happen.
536
00:38:33,820 --> 00:38:35,659
- And could you...
- But it's... Sony.
537
00:38:35,660 --> 00:38:39,426
Could you articulate what you think
the National Gallery gets out of it?
538
00:38:39,500 --> 00:38:41,739
I think it's an associa... I think it's actually...
539
00:38:41,740 --> 00:38:45,347
Cos we do appear rather on our pedestal,
physically, literally.
540
00:38:45,420 --> 00:38:49,739
It's actually a way to be there
and seen to be part of common culture.
541
00:38:49,740 --> 00:38:54,739
Sport Relief has a massive following,
and is very much for the nation, as it were.
542
00:38:54,740 --> 00:38:58,699
So it's associating with something
that gives a lot of pleasure to a lot of people.
543
00:38:58,700 --> 00:39:00,225
It's how I'd sort of rationalize it,
544
00:39:00,300 --> 00:39:03,659
but I do accept it is quite difficult
in setting precedents with charities,
545
00:39:03,660 --> 00:39:05,579
and we do get many, many requests.
546
00:39:05,580 --> 00:39:08,819
I think what they're looking for
is either a no or a yes in principle.
547
00:39:08,820 --> 00:39:11,391
If the answer is yes in principle,
then we can -
548
00:39:11,460 --> 00:39:14,139
Jill and I, or whomever -
can work to shape that,
549
00:39:14,140 --> 00:39:18,139
so that if we think, then, that we need
to sort of get more out of it, if you like,
550
00:39:18,140 --> 00:39:19,299
we can be doing that,
551
00:39:19,300 --> 00:39:22,579
whether that's in terms of profile
or actually financially as well.
552
00:39:22,580 --> 00:39:24,423
OK, what about Chinese New Year?
553
00:39:24,500 --> 00:39:26,459
Why shouldn't we be involved in that?
554
00:39:26,460 --> 00:39:28,419
I mean, would you say yes
to Chinese New Year?
555
00:39:28,420 --> 00:39:31,139
- Well, you don't have quite the same...
- We don't want...
556
00:39:31,140 --> 00:39:34,819
...rationale in terms of profile, do you?
- You know, it's a profile-raising thing.
557
00:39:34,820 --> 00:39:37,619
Whereas it's different from
other events that are happening,
558
00:39:37,620 --> 00:39:41,739
simply because of the breadth
of the reach you'd get.
559
00:39:41,740 --> 00:39:44,266
The example...
Well, one criterion would be
560
00:39:44,340 --> 00:39:46,739
how many millions are going
to be actually watching it?
561
00:39:46,740 --> 00:39:49,739
I think it would be dangerous
to suggest that we'll be able
562
00:39:49,740 --> 00:39:51,310
to get a lot of coverage per se,
563
00:39:51,380 --> 00:39:55,299
but on the other hand, if we feel that,
you know, as per our corporate objectives,
564
00:39:55,300 --> 00:39:59,299
we want to be seen as more approachable
in the very positive sense,
565
00:39:59,300 --> 00:40:02,779
it is one way of doing it
for half an hour once a year.
566
00:40:02,780 --> 00:40:05,699
- So, you know... And if we said...
- That's interesting.
567
00:40:05,700 --> 00:40:08,859
- ...this is not something we'll do...
- That's an interesting one, Jill.
568
00:40:08,860 --> 00:40:10,779
Half an hour every year,
there'll be our...
569
00:40:10,780 --> 00:40:13,260
- that's going to be one of our fences.
- Well, no...
570
00:40:13,340 --> 00:40:16,150
- No, no, seriously...
- We might say we'll consider
571
00:40:16,260 --> 00:40:19,419
one thing a year that supports
something that is...
572
00:40:19,420 --> 00:40:21,099
- loved by the nation...
- Compatible.
573
00:40:21,100 --> 00:40:22,739
...and compatible and for everyone.
574
00:40:22,740 --> 00:40:24,424
I mean, one could rationalize that.
575
00:40:24,500 --> 00:40:28,059
We'd decide, if there wasn't an opportunity
on certain years, we wouldn't do it.
576
00:40:28,060 --> 00:40:30,179
- Perhaps...
- We wouldn't do it if... Sorry.
577
00:40:30,180 --> 00:40:32,659
If it causes a lot of disruption to our public.
578
00:40:32,660 --> 00:40:34,659
But if there's something
that's not going to,
579
00:40:34,660 --> 00:40:38,107
and we can work with Sports Relief to make
it minimum disruption to our visitors...
580
00:40:38,180 --> 00:40:40,579
Let's talk about that for a bit,
the disruption.
581
00:40:40,580 --> 00:40:44,062
Because we sat round this table,
and we were all sure
582
00:40:44,140 --> 00:40:47,939
that we were going to work
with Harry Potter to make it work.
583
00:40:47,940 --> 00:40:49,988
What actually happened was that, in fact,
584
00:40:50,060 --> 00:40:52,139
the National Gallery
was completely blocked,
585
00:40:52,140 --> 00:40:53,979
and inasmuch as it wasn't blocked,
586
00:40:53,980 --> 00:40:59,020
people were just using the Sainsbury Wing
as a spectator point to look out the gallery.
587
00:40:59,100 --> 00:41:03,499
I think the gallery did probably make
the right decision about Harry Potter.
588
00:41:03,500 --> 00:41:05,179
It was most unsatisfactory.
589
00:41:05,180 --> 00:41:09,902
But in fact, none of the sort of guarantee
that we were talking about
590
00:41:12,140 --> 00:41:17,140
actually could be effectively
implemented at the time.
591
00:41:17,780 --> 00:41:20,659
We're talking about a certain type
of advertising.
592
00:41:20,660 --> 00:41:22,859
And when you see a football match
on television,
593
00:41:22,860 --> 00:41:26,979
and you see these huge signs,
they're all about running shoes and things.
594
00:41:26,980 --> 00:41:29,460
I mean, they're...
there's some sort of relationship.
595
00:41:29,540 --> 00:41:32,225
They're not about Goya and Picasso, even.
596
00:41:33,340 --> 00:41:36,459
So it seems to me
the more disparity there is
597
00:41:36,460 --> 00:41:40,459
between the different types of public
which are for one thing and the other,
598
00:41:40,460 --> 00:41:43,099
the more it actually looks
as if one's just short of cash.
599
00:41:43,100 --> 00:41:46,099
I mean, in other words,
or is in desperate need of publicity.
600
00:41:46,100 --> 00:41:49,179
I mean, I just don't know.
I just don't see how it's seriously going to..
601
00:41:49,180 --> 00:41:51,579
The name National Gallery
can be announced a lot,
602
00:41:51,580 --> 00:41:53,659
but what, in this context,
would that do for us'?
603
00:41:53,660 --> 00:41:56,231
What does that tell people
about what the gallery really is'?
604
00:41:56,300 --> 00:41:58,667
You have to continue
with these negotiations, anyway.
605
00:42:21,260 --> 00:42:23,499
One of the highlights
of the gallery,
606
00:42:23,500 --> 00:42:25,659
a painting that many people
come along and see.
607
00:42:25,660 --> 00:42:30,268
At some point, in 1533,
these two men, meeting as they did,
608
00:42:30,340 --> 00:42:33,779
did what we might do, were we to meet
a fellow countryman in a foreign place.
609
00:42:33,780 --> 00:42:36,226
They had their picture taken.
610
00:42:36,300 --> 00:42:39,579
Clearly, there's no handing a camera
to a passer-by or a waiter.
611
00:42:39,580 --> 00:42:43,426
The only way, until the advent
of photography, to have an image,
612
00:42:43,500 --> 00:42:45,939
is to have a painter paint you.
613
00:42:45,940 --> 00:42:48,699
They had money. They were wealthy.
614
00:42:48,700 --> 00:42:53,700
They could pay for the bat painter
living in England to capture their image.
615
00:42:55,940 --> 00:43:00,104
And the top painter living and working
in London in 1533
616
00:43:00,180 --> 00:43:03,459
was the German painter Hans Holbein.
617
00:43:03,460 --> 00:43:05,779
And at some point, the three men,
618
00:43:05,780 --> 00:43:08,943
Hans Holbein, Jean de Dinteville,
Georges de Selve,
619
00:43:09,020 --> 00:43:12,342
would have got together
and discussed this composition.
620
00:43:13,300 --> 00:43:16,383
They're the ones telling
the painter what to do.
621
00:43:18,620 --> 00:43:21,464
Probably, Jean de Dinteville
having the greater say,
622
00:43:21,540 --> 00:43:23,941
because it was his painting, he paid,
623
00:43:24,020 --> 00:43:27,579
it went back to his ch�teau in Polisy,
624
00:43:27,580 --> 00:43:30,948
and it could well be
that Hans Holbein had no idea
625
00:43:31,020 --> 00:43:34,739
of the whole significance of everything
he was being asked to make.
626
00:43:34,740 --> 00:43:39,579
I have a colleague who thinks
this is all about a murder that took place.
627
00:43:39,580 --> 00:43:42,106
And I look at it and I see,
"But where? What?"
628
00:43:42,180 --> 00:43:45,739
And he says, "I'm not telling you.
You'll steal my idea and publish it."
629
00:43:45,740 --> 00:43:49,028
So none of us knows what it is,
but all we have is what we can go on.
630
00:43:50,020 --> 00:43:54,499
And there is the lute case,
the box, the empty box,
631
00:43:54,500 --> 00:43:58,419
which perhaps reminds us
of the coffin, of death,
632
00:43:58,420 --> 00:44:03,420
which is also alluded to here
by this distorted skull.
633
00:44:04,900 --> 00:44:07,062
It's an example of anamorphosis.
634
00:44:07,140 --> 00:44:10,859
You look at it full on,
from where you are, it's unreadable,
635
00:44:10,860 --> 00:44:14,546
but from where you are, it reads as a skull.
636
00:44:15,580 --> 00:44:17,859
And we don't know whose idea it was.
637
00:44:17,860 --> 00:44:24,106
Did Holbein say, "Your Excellencies,
why not have an anamorphic skull?
638
00:44:24,180 --> 00:44:27,539
"See, I've made one here,"
and they thought, "Oh, that's good, yeah.
639
00:44:27,540 --> 00:44:30,111
"That'll look really good back
in the ch�teau at Polisy."
640
00:44:30,180 --> 00:44:33,139
Or had one of these two men
heard about it and said,
641
00:44:33,140 --> 00:44:36,819
"Master Holbein, can you fashion
for us a cunning perspective?"
642
00:44:36,820 --> 00:44:39,391
We don't know.
643
00:44:39,460 --> 00:44:44,944
But all of you know that to put a skull,
which is a symbol of death, into a portrait
644
00:44:45,020 --> 00:44:47,990
is a strange and unusual thing, perhaps.
645
00:44:49,100 --> 00:44:51,979
Certain symbols,
certain objects are multivalent,
646
00:44:51,980 --> 00:44:54,579
they carry manifold symbols.
647
00:44:54,580 --> 00:45:00,303
But not the skull. The skull is always,
is it not, a symbol of death?
648
00:45:00,380 --> 00:45:05,380
So perhaps the reading of this
might be that death is ever present.
649
00:45:05,660 --> 00:45:09,859
Hiding, but ever present.
You never know when it might occur.
650
00:45:09,860 --> 00:45:12,306
And in fact, he didn't make old bones at all.
651
00:45:12,380 --> 00:45:15,499
But perhaps, carried within this,
652
00:45:15,500 --> 00:45:19,579
was a message
which Jean de Dinteville could talk about
653
00:45:19,580 --> 00:45:23,949
when he showed anyone this painting
in his house at Polisy.
654
00:45:24,020 --> 00:45:26,619
Maybe the message was
something like this.
655
00:45:26,620 --> 00:45:30,102
No matter how rich, young -
656
00:45:30,180 --> 00:45:35,949
he was 29, or in his 29th year,
he in his 25th year-
657
00:45:36,020 --> 00:45:41,020
handsome, interested in
and worried about the world you are,
658
00:45:41,580 --> 00:45:45,301
in the end, it all comes down
to the grim invincible,
659
00:45:45,380 --> 00:45:49,699
and the only thing to be considered
in this world is salvation,
660
00:45:49,700 --> 00:45:54,501
represented by
the almost hidden crucifix, top left.
661
00:46:19,900 --> 00:46:21,939
It's a brilliant thing about art,
662
00:46:21,940 --> 00:46:24,227
it encompasses everything.
663
00:46:24,300 --> 00:46:29,300
It's not just about either drawing
or painting, it's about life.
664
00:46:29,980 --> 00:46:34,030
It's about music, it's about film,
it's about philosophy,
665
00:46:34,100 --> 00:46:38,179
it's about mathematics, it's about science,
it's about literature.
666
00:46:38,180 --> 00:46:42,549
Anything you are interested in...
goes into art.
667
00:46:43,580 --> 00:46:47,739
And that's why I became an artist,
and that's what fascinates me.
668
00:46:47,740 --> 00:46:51,506
It doesn't matter what you're interested in,
it can all feed in.
669
00:46:52,420 --> 00:46:56,779
And I want to also talk about how we can
use these paintings in the collection.
670
00:46:56,780 --> 00:46:58,987
Because it might seem to you,
"Hang on a minute.
671
00:46:59,060 --> 00:47:04,060
'We're looking at 17th century,
16th century, 19th century.
672
00:47:04,380 --> 00:47:09,147
'What on earth use is that for us today
in the 21st century?"
673
00:47:09,260 --> 00:47:11,739
Now, I don't make paintings.
674
00:47:11,740 --> 00:47:14,779
I do a lot of drawing.
But I make installations.
675
00:47:14,780 --> 00:47:18,979
So I make things that take over a room
that people can interact with.
676
00:47:18,980 --> 00:47:22,779
And yet, these paintings here give me
a huge amount of inspiration.
677
00:47:22,780 --> 00:47:24,779
And I come in here almost every day.
678
00:47:24,780 --> 00:47:26,942
So I want them to do that for you.
679
00:47:27,020 --> 00:47:30,659
Now, I'm going to be
sort of blunt about this,
680
00:47:30,660 --> 00:47:32,739
because it's important that you know this.
681
00:47:32,740 --> 00:47:35,939
The collection is founded on slavery.
682
00:47:35,940 --> 00:47:39,023
John Julius Angerstein,
who had the nucleus of the collection,
683
00:47:39,100 --> 00:47:44,100
worked for Lloyd's,
who were insurers against slave-boats.
684
00:47:44,180 --> 00:47:49,180
And it's very important that people
absolutely understand
685
00:47:49,420 --> 00:47:53,948
that a lot of the institutions,
whether you're talking Tate,
686
00:47:54,020 --> 00:47:56,830
whether you're talking British Museum,
687
00:47:57,780 --> 00:48:01,227
a lot of these big institutions
are founded from money,
688
00:48:01,300 --> 00:48:05,099
and it's something, obviously,
that should never be forgotten,
689
00:48:05,100 --> 00:48:07,944
and should always be understood.
690
00:48:08,020 --> 00:48:12,699
And also, Britain's
very, very shameful part in that
691
00:48:12,700 --> 00:48:15,146
shouldn't, obviously, be forgotten either.
692
00:48:15,260 --> 00:48:18,819
Let's start first with Stubbs,
the great horse painter.
693
00:48:18,820 --> 00:48:22,029
You look at this portrait of a horse,
694
00:48:22,100 --> 00:48:24,739
and it's hard to imagine that this is painted
695
00:48:24,740 --> 00:48:29,064
by someone that didn't really
particularly train as an artist.
696
00:48:29,140 --> 00:48:31,859
He was largely self-taught.
697
00:48:31,860 --> 00:48:34,859
He established a career first
as a portrait painter,
698
00:48:34,860 --> 00:48:40,230
and as an anatomist,
he studied anatomy at York Hospital,
699
00:48:40,300 --> 00:48:46,467
and ended up actually drawing illustrations
for a new book on midwifery.
700
00:48:47,620 --> 00:48:52,262
So he's already established himself
as an artist in one way,
701
00:48:52,340 --> 00:48:57,340
but then he set himself down
for 18 months in a farmhouse -
702
00:48:57,860 --> 00:49:03,230
this was in 1756-
and devoted that time, a year and a half,
703
00:49:03,300 --> 00:49:05,859
to studying the anatomy of horses.
704
00:49:05,860 --> 00:49:10,468
He was close to a tannery
that took the hides off of them,
705
00:49:10,540 --> 00:49:15,307
and they gave him
the corpses of these horses.
706
00:49:15,380 --> 00:49:19,979
And he rigged up, in this farmhouse,
a great iron bar,
707
00:49:19,980 --> 00:49:22,028
and pulley systems,
708
00:49:22,100 --> 00:49:25,139
and he put planks of wood
underneath the horses' legs,
709
00:49:25,140 --> 00:49:26,739
so that he would suspend them,
710
00:49:26,740 --> 00:49:30,739
literally, from hooks, on the ceiling,
like a piece of meal,
711
00:49:30,740 --> 00:49:33,311
and then would start to go about drawing
712
00:49:33,380 --> 00:49:36,499
all of the muscles that he could see,
and the tendons,
713
00:49:36,500 --> 00:49:40,579
and then he would scalpel away,
and lift away another layer of muscles,
714
00:49:40,580 --> 00:49:44,659
and draw what was underneath,
until he eventually got to the skeleton.
715
00:49:44,660 --> 00:49:48,699
And then he would animate that,
he would draw and write notes.
716
00:49:48,700 --> 00:49:50,828
So this was big news,
what Stubbs was doing.
717
00:50:03,460 --> 00:50:06,782
'Scuse me.
No photos, please. 'Scuse me.
718
00:50:44,860 --> 00:50:45,019
I'm very bad at maths.
719
00:50:45,020 --> 00:50:46,939
I'm very bad at maths.
720
00:50:46,940 --> 00:50:49,979
I was bad at maths at your age,
I'm bad at maths at my age,
721
00:50:49,980 --> 00:50:52,659
and I will always be bad at maths,
I think - I'd like to change.
722
00:50:52,660 --> 00:50:55,659
The reason why I like an
rather than maths -
723
00:50:55,660 --> 00:50:57,619
although they are connected somehow -
724
00:50:57,620 --> 00:51:01,067
is that in art, you can be right
in lots of different ways,
725
00:51:01,140 --> 00:51:04,379
but in maths, you can only really be
right once, otherwise you're wrong.
726
00:51:04,380 --> 00:51:06,579
I do really like that about an.
727
00:51:06,580 --> 00:51:09,939
One of the reasons I wanted to show you
this painting is to talk about saints,
728
00:51:09,940 --> 00:51:11,739
but is also to talk about storytelling.
729
00:51:11,740 --> 00:51:14,107
I think that's really, really important.
730
00:51:14,180 --> 00:51:16,659
Think about the way that a painting,
731
00:51:16,660 --> 00:51:20,107
whether it's this painting -
this is by an artist called Bellini -
732
00:51:20,180 --> 00:51:23,899
or it's Diana and Actaeon, or it's Death
of Actaeon, which we're gonna be seeing,
733
00:51:23,900 --> 00:51:25,699
or it's Bacchus and Ariadne,
734
00:51:25,700 --> 00:51:30,103
a painting has got to tell its whole story
in a single image.
735
00:51:30,180 --> 00:51:33,179
A book or a poem has time.
736
00:51:33,180 --> 00:51:36,299
The one thing that paintings don't have
is time - do you know what I mean?
737
00:51:36,300 --> 00:51:38,419
So a film unfolds over two hours.
738
00:51:38,420 --> 00:51:40,419
You've got time to introduce characters.
739
00:51:40,420 --> 00:51:43,059
You've got time to show
the plot going in and out.
740
00:51:43,060 --> 00:51:47,819
A book, a huge book, can take you
six months to read or longer, can't it?
741
00:51:47,820 --> 00:51:49,390
Can do. Can do.
742
00:51:49,460 --> 00:51:52,379
It means you're living
with the story for six months,
743
00:51:52,380 --> 00:51:54,339
and it goes in and out, it weaves around,
744
00:51:54,340 --> 00:51:57,099
new characters are introduced,
different things happen.
745
00:51:57,100 --> 00:51:58,779
That's got time, too.
746
00:51:58,780 --> 00:52:03,422
But a painting doesn't have time. A painting
has the speed of light to tell you the story.
747
00:52:03,500 --> 00:52:05,779
It has the time it takes to see the painting.
748
00:52:05,780 --> 00:52:09,262
So telling a story in a painting
is incredible skilful.
749
00:52:09,340 --> 00:52:13,059
So I wanna think a little bit more, before we
move on to 'Titian, which we will do soon,
750
00:52:13,060 --> 00:52:15,419
about how this artist tells the story.
751
00:52:15,420 --> 00:52:17,739
What else is in the painting?
752
00:52:17,740 --> 00:52:22,740
Can you think of a reason... Cos in
the actual story, there's no woodcutters.
753
00:52:23,580 --> 00:52:26,106
In the story, there's just St Peter Martyr
754
00:52:26,180 --> 00:52:28,859
and his assistant,
who you can see there escaping,
755
00:52:28,860 --> 00:52:33,699
walking along, alongside a wood,
near Milan in northern Italy,
756
00:52:33,700 --> 00:52:35,899
when they were set upon by assassins.
757
00:52:35,900 --> 00:52:38,819
One assassin killed St Peter Martyr,
758
00:52:38,820 --> 00:52:40,739
and as St Peter Martyr was dying,
759
00:52:40,740 --> 00:52:44,619
he wrote "I believe" in blood on the ground.
760
00:52:44,620 --> 00:52:46,031
Now, he's not doing it in this one,
761
00:52:46,100 --> 00:52:49,459
but there's another version of this scene
in another gallery in London,
762
00:52:49,460 --> 00:52:51,099
a place called the Courtauld Gallery,
763
00:52:51,100 --> 00:52:53,459
where he is writing "I believe" in blood.
764
00:52:53,460 --> 00:52:55,539
It's quite... It's quite gruesome, isn't it'?
765
00:52:55,540 --> 00:52:57,739
Quite a gruesome story.
But quite moving, as well.
766
00:52:57,740 --> 00:53:00,664
The other guy escapes.
No mention of woodcutters.
767
00:53:01,620 --> 00:53:05,102
Totally irrelevant.
Why do you think he put them in?
768
00:53:05,180 --> 00:53:07,148
And they take up so much space.
769
00:53:07,260 --> 00:53:10,459
The woodcutters and what they're involved
with, in other words, the wood,
770
00:53:10,460 --> 00:53:12,379
take up most of the painting.
771
00:53:12,380 --> 00:53:14,179
Why did he do that? Yeah?
772
00:53:14,180 --> 00:53:16,939
Maybe because it gives the painting
a little more character?
773
00:53:16,940 --> 00:53:19,939
Definitely gives the painting
more character. It totally does.
774
00:53:19,940 --> 00:53:24,229
Think about this. A tragic event,
perhaps made more tragic
775
00:53:24,300 --> 00:53:27,779
if there are people around
who don't recognize what's going on.
776
00:53:27,780 --> 00:53:29,384
Who don't see it as a tragedy.
777
00:53:29,460 --> 00:53:33,059
I'm trying to think of an example. I wonder
if you might know an example, I don't know.
778
00:53:33,060 --> 00:53:36,579
But there's something... It happens a lot
in plays by Shakespeare, for example.
779
00:53:36,580 --> 00:53:38,779
There are people who don't know
what's happening,
780
00:53:38,780 --> 00:53:41,021
and they go, "What's happening
over there?"
781
00:53:41,100 --> 00:53:43,944
There's a lovely painting,
which is not actually in this gallery,
782
00:53:44,020 --> 00:53:46,459
but it's a painting of the fall of Icarus.
783
00:53:46,460 --> 00:53:48,859
Icarus was the one who made the 'wings...
Do you know it?
784
00:53:48,860 --> 00:53:50,859
He made wings of wax,
flew too close to the sun.
785
00:53:50,860 --> 00:53:53,619
Fantastic painting,
where almost all of the painting
786
00:53:53,620 --> 00:53:55,619
is people not noticing what's going on,
787
00:53:55,620 --> 00:53:58,226
people ploughing the fields
and doing lots of other things,
788
00:53:58,300 --> 00:54:01,699
while in the background,
he plunks into the ocean and dies.
789
00:54:01,700 --> 00:54:04,988
There's a famous poem about that
by Auden, which is a really good poem
790
00:54:05,060 --> 00:54:08,179
about how people don't really notice
these things happening.
791
00:54:08,180 --> 00:54:11,299
I think these woodcutters are partly there
to make it even more tragic,
792
00:54:11,300 --> 00:54:13,701
because they just keep going
on and on and on.
793
00:54:21,100 --> 00:54:23,899
It's amazing, isn't it,
how it adds a sense of narrative
794
00:54:23,900 --> 00:54:26,899
as soon as there's an object,
and this is what this pole...
795
00:54:26,900 --> 00:54:30,985
I'm seeing all sorts of paintings
in the gallery where there's sort of...
796
00:54:32,140 --> 00:54:37,624
Suddenly, there might be some sort
of story... woven into this pose.
797
00:54:39,100 --> 00:54:44,584
We can't help ourselves but add narrative
when we're dealing with the human body.
798
00:54:45,980 --> 00:54:50,383
And if you want to include
any elements from the room,
799
00:54:50,460 --> 00:54:53,859
thinking about vertical lines behind,
or horizontal lines,
800
00:54:53,860 --> 00:54:56,227
finding lines of connection.
801
00:54:56,300 --> 00:54:58,579
So try and constantly look
at the relationship
802
00:54:58,580 --> 00:55:01,311
between the head and the shoulder girdle,
803
00:55:01,380 --> 00:55:03,339
between the shoulder girdle
and the pelvis.
804
00:55:03,340 --> 00:55:09,871
Be brave and add that vertical line
to contrast the curves of the body.
805
00:55:15,260 --> 00:55:17,979
Now that we're slowing down,
and really looking,
806
00:55:17,980 --> 00:55:21,699
so start to move more quickly
around the body,
807
00:55:21,700 --> 00:55:23,987
making marks in sort
of continuous movement
808
00:55:24,060 --> 00:55:27,143
as you... as you work around it
with your eyes.
809
00:55:27,260 --> 00:55:30,946
Leave a leg, move back to a shoulder.
Go up to the top of the head.
810
00:55:31,020 --> 00:55:34,979
Move very freely around, so you get
a sense of how this pose is working.
811
00:55:34,980 --> 00:55:37,142
This hand should be big.
812
00:55:37,260 --> 00:55:40,339
- Cos it's going to hide that forearm.
- It should be... Yes.
813
00:55:40,340 --> 00:55:43,339
Yeah, cos it's... the gap between it...
814
00:55:43,340 --> 00:55:47,339
The gap between the son of nipple
and first knuckle of the hand,
815
00:55:47,340 --> 00:55:49,419
- if you can sort of draw that gap...
- Mm.
816
00:55:49,420 --> 00:55:52,619
- Then you'll be seeing... As you move...
- That's that line there, right?
817
00:55:52,620 --> 00:55:53,739
- Ah.
- That's that line.
818
00:55:53,740 --> 00:55:55,947
- That's the line of the crease in her elbow.
- Yeah.
819
00:55:56,020 --> 00:56:01,020
But I'm thinking about the actual bit of air
between breast and... and fist.
820
00:56:02,780 --> 00:56:05,619
- Mm. Yeah. That space is... that gap.
- Yeah. Yeah.
821
00:56:05,620 --> 00:56:08,659
So trying to sort of measure
that space, really,
822
00:56:08,660 --> 00:56:10,899
- and place the hand so that it...
- Mm.
823
00:56:10,900 --> 00:56:14,063
It's like bookending, isn't it,
the space in the middle?
824
00:56:14,140 --> 00:56:15,779
- Mm.
- If that makes sense.
825
00:56:15,780 --> 00:56:18,863
- Easier said than done.
- Yeah! Get her hand in!
826
00:56:23,940 --> 00:56:26,859
- I think... I'm not sure...
- If you're wrestling with it,
827
00:56:26,860 --> 00:56:29,067
just draw it a few times
on another piece of paper,
828
00:56:29,140 --> 00:56:30,824
and then come back.
829
00:56:40,900 --> 00:56:43,939
Think about how you want
to use your pencil.
830
00:56:43,940 --> 00:56:46,859
You can work in cross-hatching
to build up tone,
831
00:56:46,860 --> 00:56:53,345
you can start to smudge chalk
if you want to think about light and dark.
832
00:56:55,580 --> 00:56:58,739
If you're using the chalks,
you might want to switch.
833
00:56:58,740 --> 00:57:03,428
If you've been using the black chalk,
maybe explore the red chalk as well,
834
00:57:03,500 --> 00:57:06,539
so you get the much softer mark
with the red chalk.
835
00:57:06,540 --> 00:57:09,510
Black chalk's slightly more
sort of bound together.
836
00:57:11,540 --> 00:57:13,747
See if that changes the way that you draw.
837
00:57:17,500 --> 00:57:20,099
Just have another 30 seconds
on this drawing.
838
00:57:20,100 --> 00:57:22,939
So if you're working your way
around the figure,
839
00:57:22,940 --> 00:57:29,266
just see if you want to, in very brief strokes,
complete this pose.
840
00:57:29,340 --> 00:57:31,308
841
00:57:32,980 --> 00:57:34,948
842
00:57:53,060 --> 00:57:55,791
843
00:58:05,620 --> 00:58:09,545
...from yesterday!
So good!
844
00:58:33,260 --> 00:58:35,706
845
00:58:49,500 --> 00:58:53,059
Reception. Does that mean...
No. He's just gone to check.
846
00:58:53,060 --> 00:58:55,506
See how many we have left.
847
00:59:43,300 --> 00:59:45,268
Very beautiful.
848
01:01:07,900 --> 01:01:09,868
What a blessing.
849
01:01:10,980 --> 01:01:14,699
Maybe a kind gesture.
More awakening.
850
01:01:14,700 --> 01:01:16,668
Awakening gesture.
851
01:01:18,540 --> 01:01:18,659
Even while the exhibition's been open,
852
01:01:18,660 --> 01:01:20,739
Even while the exhibition's been open,
853
01:01:20,740 --> 01:01:23,983
have there been insights that you've been
getting into the work of Leonardo?
854
01:01:24,060 --> 01:01:27,099
One of the things that you do
as you start working on an exhibition
855
01:01:27,100 --> 01:01:30,139
is to think about what
the whole narrative will be.
856
01:01:30,140 --> 01:01:32,939
But you're also cataloguing
each work individually,
857
01:01:32,940 --> 01:01:36,069
so at a certain point,
it becomes a mosaic, perhaps,
858
01:01:36,140 --> 01:01:38,339
rather than a seamless narrative.
859
01:01:38,340 --> 01:01:41,779
And, obviously, that remains the case
to some degree.
860
01:01:41,780 --> 01:01:44,779
But at the same time, you are beginning
to see these works together,
861
01:01:44,780 --> 01:01:48,779
you're beginning to be able to appreciate
what makes them very special
862
01:01:48,780 --> 01:01:50,942
as a kind of viewing experience.
863
01:01:51,020 --> 01:01:53,419
And I suppose
what I've been struck about...
864
01:01:53,420 --> 01:01:56,739
Well, I suppose what I've been struck by,
over and over again,
865
01:01:56,740 --> 01:01:58,939
is this quality within these works,
866
01:01:58,940 --> 01:02:03,940
whereby the paintings show figures
that are incredibly present,
867
01:02:04,780 --> 01:02:09,104
incredibly vital, and yet extraordinarily
remote and other, as if they...
868
01:02:09,180 --> 01:02:12,699
And that's something that, for me,
is very much a unifying factor.
869
01:02:12,700 --> 01:02:16,068
So I suppose what I've been doing
is seeing the works together,
870
01:02:16,140 --> 01:02:21,140
thinking about what makes them
a complete oeuvre by a single artist,
871
01:02:22,660 --> 01:02:24,579
what makes them Leonardo.
872
01:02:24,580 --> 01:02:28,346
And it's really, I suppose,
I've been struck, over and over again,
873
01:02:28,420 --> 01:02:32,499
by the quality of thought allied
with a kind of pitch of emotion
874
01:02:32,500 --> 01:02:34,739
and an intensity of craft,
875
01:02:34,740 --> 01:02:39,109
and it's that, really, that seeing the pictures
together has made me understand
876
01:02:39,180 --> 01:02:41,099
about this extraordinary artist.
877
01:02:41,100 --> 01:02:45,150
And have there been any insights,
anything you've learned that surprised you,
878
01:02:45,260 --> 01:02:47,939
particularly since the work
has been gathered here?
879
01:02:47,940 --> 01:02:53,265
What I've been amazed by
is how profound and layered and endless
880
01:02:53,340 --> 01:02:55,699
the viewing experience is with Leonardo.
881
01:02:55,700 --> 01:03:00,700
How you always feel that this is an artist
who goes on giving with each of the works.
882
01:03:00,900 --> 01:03:04,899
And in fact, one of the ways I think
you can distinguish a Leonardo painting
883
01:03:04,900 --> 01:03:07,426
from one by a member of his workshop
884
01:03:07,500 --> 01:03:11,339
is that... is this process
of endless revelation,
885
01:03:11,340 --> 01:03:15,939
whereby it's almost as if sort of
onion layers are being peeled away,
886
01:03:15,940 --> 01:03:18,386
and yet you never, ever
quite get to the core.
887
01:03:18,460 --> 01:03:23,460
Leonardo's capacity to paint the invisible,
just out of reach, is really extraordinary,
888
01:03:24,740 --> 01:03:26,579
and that's been the revelation,
889
01:03:26,580 --> 01:03:29,060
but it's not about, you know,
who painted what,
890
01:03:29,140 --> 01:03:31,099
or... or anything of that kind,
891
01:03:31,100 --> 01:03:33,699
it's really about the personality of the artist.
892
01:03:33,700 --> 01:03:37,386
I think, for what it's worth, that it's
this spiritual quality in Leonardo's work
893
01:03:37,460 --> 01:03:40,379
that has raised this exhibition
to the event it's been,
894
01:03:40,380 --> 01:03:43,145
in the sense that it's not
just about the name,
895
01:03:43,260 --> 01:03:45,339
it's about something to do
with the way in which
896
01:03:45,340 --> 01:03:48,939
these pictures speak
to people across time.
897
01:03:48,940 --> 01:03:51,420
Leonardo created
a kind of archive of drawings,
898
01:03:51,500 --> 01:03:54,139
and they're about invention
and they're about observation,
899
01:03:54,140 --> 01:03:57,699
and they're about looking
and thinking and so on.
900
01:03:57,700 --> 01:03:59,987
And they're... and he kept some of those,
901
01:04:00,060 --> 01:04:04,941
and they go on being an extraordinary
point of reference for each new stage.
902
01:04:05,020 --> 01:04:10,020
He's an artist who constantly refines and
revisits certain themes over and over again.
903
01:04:10,100 --> 01:04:12,299
And really, as I say, in doing that,
904
01:04:12,300 --> 01:04:14,779
each of these works
becomes ever more considered,
905
01:04:14,780 --> 01:04:16,899
ever more felt, as well.
906
01:04:16,900 --> 01:04:19,471
And that's the difference
between him and his pupils.
907
01:04:19,540 --> 01:04:21,941
It's really in his... it's really in his...
908
01:04:22,020 --> 01:04:24,339
That's the difference
between him and his pupils.
909
01:04:24,340 --> 01:04:26,899
It's really in his pupils' work
that you just don't see that.
910
01:04:26,900 --> 01:04:30,819
You can see motifs being repeated,
you can see beautiful craft,
911
01:04:30,820 --> 01:04:34,302
but you don't see
that exquisiteness of thought.
912
01:06:31,300 --> 01:06:32,979
- OK, great, thanks.
- OK.
913
01:06:32,980 --> 01:06:34,579
Great, thanks very much.
914
01:06:34,580 --> 01:06:37,265
So, I've already taken
some samples.
915
01:06:37,340 --> 01:06:39,459
I took a couple to look at the varnish,
916
01:06:39,460 --> 01:06:44,460
cos, as you can probably see,
with a bit of an angle,
917
01:06:44,820 --> 01:06:47,779
there's a varnish layer
which shows up clearly.
918
01:06:47,780 --> 01:06:49,987
- It doesn't come all the way to the edge.
- OK.
919
01:06:50,060 --> 01:06:52,739
There's a sort of drip
of it that's running down here.
920
01:06:52,740 --> 01:06:54,739
Stops there, does it?
Yeah.
921
01:06:54,740 --> 01:06:56,699
So I've taken some to look at the varnish,
922
01:06:56,700 --> 01:07:00,068
and then my other samples mainly
concentrate on this brown layer,
923
01:07:00,140 --> 01:07:02,899
which is the layer that seems
to have contracted and pulled
924
01:07:02,900 --> 01:07:05,221
and reticulated across the surface.
925
01:07:05,300 --> 01:07:07,739
What's interesting, I suppose,
from my point of view,
926
01:07:07,740 --> 01:07:10,311
is how that layer relates
to the paint below,
927
01:07:10,380 --> 01:07:13,139
and how... how it sits on the surface,
928
01:07:13,140 --> 01:07:16,939
whether it's separated from the paint
by anything in between.
929
01:07:16,940 --> 01:07:20,899
And if we can see a bit more
about the layer in cross-section,
930
01:07:20,900 --> 01:07:23,471
whether it's got pigment in it.
931
01:07:23,540 --> 01:07:26,987
So those types of things will be
very interesting about a sample, so...
932
01:07:27,060 --> 01:07:28,819
a cross-section sample.
933
01:07:28,820 --> 01:07:32,302
So, given this varnish layer
goes to the border,
934
01:07:32,380 --> 01:07:34,859
- it would be perfectly all right...
- Mm, we could lake...
935
01:07:34,860 --> 01:07:36,739
- ...to look at that border...
- Exactly.
936
01:07:36,740 --> 01:07:39,107
...In a place where there's
a damage, really.
937
01:07:39,180 --> 01:07:41,619
I'm sort of looking up there, in a way,
938
01:07:41,620 --> 01:07:44,739
because, although
there's this large loss here,
939
01:07:44,740 --> 01:07:47,141
that may not actually have that layer...
940
01:07:47,260 --> 01:07:48,859
- Yeah.
- ...reaching that point.
941
01:07:48,860 --> 01:07:50,699
But up there, I think it probably does.
942
01:07:50,700 --> 01:07:53,146
- Do you think? Perhaps...
- That might be worth looking at.
943
01:07:53,260 --> 01:07:56,059
- And I think the comers all have damage...
- Yeah.
944
01:07:56,060 --> 01:07:59,739
...where, in the past,
from framing problems...
945
01:07:59,740 --> 01:08:01,779
- so it might be worth looking up there.
- Mm.
946
01:08:01,780 --> 01:08:06,780
But for the complete sequence of layers,
probably, one's best confined to that...
947
01:08:06,980 --> 01:08:09,347
- that pan, because, as you say...
- I think so. Yeah.
948
01:08:09,420 --> 01:08:12,379
So, really, let's have
a little look up at the top.
949
01:08:12,380 --> 01:08:14,860
OK. Get the microscope on.
950
01:08:15,780 --> 01:08:17,350
Cos there are these damages here.
951
01:08:17,420 --> 01:08:21,982
You could probably be quite safe
taking some here.
952
01:08:26,100 --> 01:08:29,741
As a preliminary, that's the thing
we ought to look at, really.
953
01:09:17,540 --> 01:09:19,144
I think that should do it, actually.
954
01:09:19,260 --> 01:09:22,139
So... that's a very tiny bit,
just from the edge,
955
01:09:22,140 --> 01:09:24,179
of the sort of inner side of the damage.
956
01:09:24,180 --> 01:09:26,139
I don't know, can you even see it, actually'?
957
01:09:26,140 --> 01:09:28,539
- So... So, OK.
- A bit easier for me to do my analysis.
958
01:09:28,540 --> 01:09:31,783
Right, OK, good!
Fantastic. Thanks very much.
959
01:09:32,780 --> 01:09:36,341
So, I'd better just note down
where this comes from, I think.
960
01:09:40,740 --> 01:09:42,583
Oh, I'll put it on this one.
961
01:09:44,740 --> 01:09:46,390
Great, thanks.
962
01:12:01,580 --> 01:12:04,231
Yeah, would we...
Would it be worth it?
963
01:12:39,380 --> 01:12:41,064
I think that's a real...
964
01:12:51,340 --> 01:12:56,340
Actually, we made a reservation
for dinner for six pm. And we're...
965
01:12:57,140 --> 01:12:59,819
It could work out.
It could work out perfectly.
966
01:12:59,820 --> 01:13:01,139
Hello!
967
01:13:01,140 --> 01:13:03,459
Is it possible to buy the tickets?
968
01:13:03,460 --> 01:13:06,339
All advance sales
are completely sold out.
969
01:13:06,340 --> 01:13:08,339
The only way to get in...
970
01:13:08,340 --> 01:13:10,308
971
01:13:17,820 --> 01:13:19,339
- I think that's OK.
- That's OK?
972
01:13:19,340 --> 01:13:20,466
- Yeah, don't worry.
- OK.
973
01:13:33,740 --> 01:13:35,981
974
01:13:38,660 --> 01:13:40,628
975
01:14:56,740 --> 01:14:58,059
976
01:14:58,060 --> 01:15:00,427
977
01:15:02,700 --> 01:15:04,668
978
01:15:05,660 --> 01:15:09,299
The main challenge that we're
dealing with is that our income,
979
01:15:09,300 --> 01:15:11,939
and what's available to us to spend,
980
01:15:11,940 --> 01:15:15,899
is 3.2 million less next year
than it was this year.
981
01:15:15,900 --> 01:15:19,659
So it's a... it's a significant reduction
982
01:15:19,660 --> 01:15:23,059
in what we have got available
to us to spend.
983
01:15:23,060 --> 01:15:27,699
Now, of course, some of the income we had
this year was exceptional, from Leonardo,
984
01:15:27,700 --> 01:15:31,099
and our costs will go down
as well next year,
985
01:15:31,100 --> 01:15:34,821
so we're spending less on exhibitions
than we were this year.
986
01:15:36,180 --> 01:15:39,379
We're also spending less
on our capital programme next year,
987
01:15:39,380 --> 01:15:42,019
so we're one and a half million down,
988
01:15:42,020 --> 01:15:44,619
because we're spending a million less
on the capital,
989
01:15:44,620 --> 01:15:47,819
and we're spending half a million less
on exhibitions.
990
01:15:47,820 --> 01:15:51,539
Also, this year, we've been able
to afford the compensation payments
991
01:15:51,540 --> 01:15:55,619
to a range of staff who have left,
which was in the region of 700,000.
992
01:15:55,620 --> 01:15:59,179
So all of those costs
won't appear again next year.
993
01:15:59,180 --> 01:16:01,819
But that still leaves us
about a million short.
994
01:16:01,820 --> 01:16:06,019
And the way that we have managed
to break even for next year
995
01:16:06,020 --> 01:16:09,979
is because of the savings
we've made in staff costs.
996
01:16:09,980 --> 01:16:13,979
So that has enabled us to present
a balanced budget.
997
01:16:13,980 --> 01:16:17,701
So the work that we've done this year,
in changes to invigilation arrangements
998
01:16:17,780 --> 01:16:21,182
and in the posts that have been reduced,
999
01:16:21,260 --> 01:16:23,499
has enabled us to balance this budget.
1000
01:16:23,500 --> 01:16:25,579
And there's a little bit more detail
about that
1001
01:16:25,580 --> 01:16:27,899
later on in the paper,
which I'll come lo.
1002
01:16:27,900 --> 01:16:30,619
One of the big risks that we face
over the coming years
1003
01:16:30,620 --> 01:16:32,939
is the likelihood of further cuts,
1004
01:16:32,940 --> 01:16:37,940
which, although I'm hopeful
that won't be the case during 2012-13,
1005
01:16:38,660 --> 01:16:42,859
it's not impossible that there will be
another spending review in 2012-13,
1006
01:16:42,860 --> 01:16:47,059
which will reduce our grant in aid
still further
1007
01:16:47,060 --> 01:16:50,499
in the following two years,
1008
01:16:50,500 --> 01:16:53,499
which can be by as much
as five per cent each year.
1009
01:16:53,500 --> 01:16:55,779
And that's just what
they've told us about, so...
1010
01:16:55,780 --> 01:16:57,939
- Yeah.
- And things have worsened considerably
1011
01:16:57,940 --> 01:17:01,019
since the spending review 18 months ago.
1012
01:17:01,020 --> 01:17:03,751
Are we being too cautious
on that front?
1013
01:17:03,820 --> 01:17:08,659
It's so... you know, only at 1.7 million
of new income,
1014
01:17:08,660 --> 01:17:11,499
when, you know, last couple of years,
they've gone way over that,
1015
01:17:11,500 --> 01:17:13,179
and way over our budget figures.
1016
01:17:13,180 --> 01:17:15,499
Are we... are we being too careful
with that figure?
1017
01:17:15,500 --> 01:17:20,179
It's best to be cautious, because
there are things that we don't know about.
1018
01:17:20,180 --> 01:17:25,186
For example, I've only budgeted in here
for one per cent increase in staff costs,
1019
01:17:25,300 --> 01:17:27,379
on the basis of the autumn statement.
1020
01:17:27,380 --> 01:17:30,099
Now, we don't know what
the payrolls will actually be.
1021
01:17:30,100 --> 01:17:34,979
And, in recent years, they've actually been...
provided flexibility
1022
01:17:34,980 --> 01:17:38,499
that puts us under pressure
to actually pay more, so there are...
1023
01:17:38,500 --> 01:17:41,139
And then there are uncertainties
over energy costs,
1024
01:17:41,140 --> 01:17:43,699
which can be very volatile,
1025
01:17:43,700 --> 01:17:46,499
and there's the possibility of further cuts.
1026
01:17:46,500 --> 01:17:48,899
So I would prefer to budget cautiously
1027
01:17:48,900 --> 01:17:53,099
and know that we may well
come in in a better position,
1028
01:17:53,100 --> 01:17:56,979
which will provide us with the opportunity
to cover such eventualities if we need to.
1029
01:17:56,980 --> 01:18:01,379
Last year, this current year,
we've budgeted for 2.8 million.
1030
01:18:01,380 --> 01:18:06,099
And as of December, you were 4.9 million,
not including 1.1 of campaign income.
1031
01:18:06,100 --> 01:18:08,019
So you were at six altogether.
1032
01:18:08,020 --> 01:18:10,182
Now we're budgeting for 1.7 million.
1033
01:18:10,300 --> 01:18:12,459
No one's gonna really
look that closely at this,
1034
01:18:12,460 --> 01:18:16,579
but, I mean, it looks like we're spending
53p for every pound we raise.
1035
01:18:16,580 --> 01:18:19,939
And what we have in our budget,
is our budget really realistic, then?
1036
01:18:19,940 --> 01:18:21,779
It's cautious, but is it realistic,
1037
01:18:21,780 --> 01:18:25,739
when we're raising twice
what we put in here, historically?
1038
01:18:25,740 --> 01:18:30,740
This is reflecting what we would expect
to bring in. You're right, it's very cautious.
1039
01:18:31,780 --> 01:18:36,780
But it... it enables us to balance a budget
that has accommodated the costs
1040
01:18:37,780 --> 01:18:41,699
that we consider to be reasonable
to do what we want to do next year.
1041
01:18:41,700 --> 01:18:46,700
And it provides us with some flexibility
to cover eventualities that we can't predict,
1042
01:18:46,940 --> 01:18:51,619
and also, new projects that might
come up during the course of the year.
1043
01:18:51,620 --> 01:18:55,579
So we could include more income,
1044
01:18:55,580 --> 01:18:58,699
but then we'd be including
a much bigger contingency,
1045
01:18:58,700 --> 01:19:01,180
- which I'm not sure is a brilliant message.
- Yeah.
1046
01:19:04,380 --> 01:19:07,539
Here is the decline
of the empire.
1047
01:19:07,540 --> 01:19:10,146
Here, something terrible has occurred,
1048
01:19:10,260 --> 01:19:14,231
it's the end of Carthage,
their overthrow by Rome.
1049
01:19:15,140 --> 01:19:19,419
The men are all being taken off,
prisoners, to Rome.
1050
01:19:19,420 --> 01:19:21,779
The women are weeping for them.
1051
01:19:21,780 --> 01:19:26,780
Here, the sun is descending,
I think, in the sky.
1052
01:19:26,940 --> 01:19:31,940
It's a very dramatic sunset,
with quite a lot of red in it.
1053
01:19:32,900 --> 01:19:37,899
Turner himself referred to it
as an ensanguined sunset,
1054
01:19:37,900 --> 01:19:40,299
an ensanguined sky,
1055
01:19:40,300 --> 01:19:45,300
and here, these rough brush...
1056
01:19:45,700 --> 01:19:48,539
marks of the brush, in a dark red,
1057
01:19:48,540 --> 01:19:52,779
I think, if you go into the exhibition,
you'll see it is a dark, browny red,
1058
01:19:52,780 --> 01:19:56,499
almost, perhaps, like encrusted blood.
1059
01:19:56,500 --> 01:20:01,379
So this is a very dramatic view of empire.
1060
01:20:01,380 --> 01:20:06,380
So, here, I think Turner really starts to
detach himself from Claude in many ways,
1061
01:20:07,580 --> 01:20:12,379
because these are not tranquil
depictions of classical subjects,
1062
01:20:12,380 --> 01:20:15,019
these are reflections on history.
1063
01:20:15,020 --> 01:20:20,020
And Turner was immensely interested in
and influenced by history.
1064
01:20:20,340 --> 01:20:25,187
He also wrote poetry on this subject.
1065
01:20:26,100 --> 01:20:30,779
And he can't have avoided, of course,
1066
01:20:30,780 --> 01:20:35,779
the events around the painting
of these compositions in 1815,
1067
01:20:35,780 --> 01:20:37,748
and this one in 1817.
1068
01:20:37,820 --> 01:20:40,903
It was, of course, the very end
of the Napoleonic Wars,
1069
01:20:40,980 --> 01:20:44,139
the end of the Napoleonic Empire,
1070
01:20:44,140 --> 01:20:47,579
and, by contrast,
the rise of the British Empire.
1071
01:20:47,580 --> 01:20:50,265
But Turner took a very long view
of these things.
1072
01:20:50,340 --> 01:20:53,819
He was interested
in the rise and fall of empires
1073
01:20:53,820 --> 01:20:56,949
over hundreds and thousands of years.
1074
01:20:57,860 --> 01:20:59,624
Do come in.
1075
01:21:05,980 --> 01:21:10,019
So, welcome. Now, you're looking
at a picture of Frederick Rihel,
1076
01:21:10,020 --> 01:21:12,859
painted in 1663.
1077
01:21:12,860 --> 01:21:15,179
It came into the National Gallery in 1960.
1078
01:21:15,180 --> 01:21:19,499
It had been quite obscured
by lots of accumulated yellow varnishes.
1079
01:21:19,500 --> 01:21:21,707
The picture was restored
not that long ago,
1080
01:21:21,780 --> 01:21:24,699
but the varnish that was used
was very, very degraded.
1081
01:21:24,700 --> 01:21:29,619
And what you are seeing now is a picture
where I've done quite a lot of cleaning.
1082
01:21:29,620 --> 01:21:31,499
That means using solvents
1083
01:21:31,500 --> 01:21:34,859
to reduce or remove
discoloured varnishes from the paint
1084
01:21:34,860 --> 01:21:37,299
over most of the surface area.
1085
01:21:37,300 --> 01:21:42,300
There's an area roughly corresponding
to here where I haven't cleaned, so...
1086
01:21:43,420 --> 01:21:47,419
Not yet. It's a little hard to see
the differences, I suppose, now.
1087
01:21:47,420 --> 01:21:49,419
I can tell you, it looked much worse.
1088
01:21:49,420 --> 01:21:51,939
No, I think the interesting thing
about a yellow varnish,
1089
01:21:51,940 --> 01:21:54,859
everyone understands
that a yellow varnish makes...
1090
01:21:54,860 --> 01:21:57,619
shifts all the colours
toward the warmer end of the spectrum.
1091
01:21:57,620 --> 01:22:00,939
You know, blue becomes green,
and I would say a yellow filter...
1092
01:22:00,940 --> 01:22:04,299
film over a yellow colour
doesn't change it much at all.
1093
01:22:04,300 --> 01:22:07,739
And so you might wonder about a picture
like this, which is mostly warm colours,
1094
01:22:07,740 --> 01:22:10,819
you know, white, red, brown, yellow,
about the distortion.
1095
01:22:10,820 --> 01:22:14,379
I mean, there are two things I would point
out that have changed quite a lot,
1096
01:22:14,380 --> 01:22:17,419
and you can distinguish
some quite important things
1097
01:22:17,420 --> 01:22:19,539
that are going on in the picture.
1098
01:22:19,540 --> 01:22:23,859
The differences between the yellow and
white impasto, very typical of Rembrandt,
1099
01:22:23,860 --> 01:22:26,059
was completely impossible to see.
1100
01:22:26,060 --> 01:22:29,139
I mean, the sleeve and the sash
were more or less the same colour.
1101
01:22:29,140 --> 01:22:30,619
But the other thing I think...
1102
01:22:30,620 --> 01:22:33,499
the other important thing
to think about while we clean pictures
1103
01:22:33,500 --> 01:22:37,710
that people often underestimate is the fact
that varnishes not only change colour,
1104
01:22:37,780 --> 01:22:39,659
they often go a little bit foggy.
1105
01:22:39,660 --> 01:22:42,939
They develop a fine craquelure
and they scatter light.
1106
01:22:42,940 --> 01:22:47,339
And it's really, on a microscopic level, like
looking at a shattered windscreen on a car.
1107
01:22:47,340 --> 01:22:50,099
There's still a film there,
but you can't really see through it.
1108
01:22:50,100 --> 01:22:53,939
And that really changes
the way you see the darker colours.
1109
01:22:53,940 --> 01:22:58,940
So they become much lighter,
and so you can't see the distinctions
1110
01:22:59,100 --> 01:23:03,299
that are in the painting between, say,
quite dark, very dark and extremely dark.
1111
01:23:03,300 --> 01:23:05,701
And that's really important
with a picture like this,
1112
01:23:05,780 --> 01:23:09,499
where there's so much going on that's
about distinctions between brown and black.
1113
01:23:09,500 --> 01:23:14,459
And really, the illusion of depth and volume
and spatial recession
1114
01:23:14,460 --> 01:23:17,739
is the key gain, I think, from this picture.
1115
01:23:17,740 --> 01:23:20,019
I think the kind of investigation
1116
01:23:20,020 --> 01:23:23,339
I was saying before that we do
as pan of any restoration,
1117
01:23:23,340 --> 01:23:25,379
even preliminary to any restoration,
1118
01:23:25,380 --> 01:23:28,299
has shown some other interesting things
about this painting.
1119
01:23:28,300 --> 01:23:31,383
And I'm gonna take
my one visual aid here.
1120
01:23:33,580 --> 01:23:36,379
We... Oops. Sorry about that.
1121
01:23:36,380 --> 01:23:38,619
We... Sorry. We normally take...
1122
01:23:38,620 --> 01:23:41,899
do X-radiographs of pictures like this
before we start restoration,
1123
01:23:41,900 --> 01:23:46,900
so here is a typical X-ray,
where you can see the denser pigments,
1124
01:23:48,300 --> 01:23:50,819
the ones with the heavier atomic weights,
show up white,
1125
01:23:50,820 --> 01:23:54,711
and luckily, it just so happens
that lead white, white pigment,
1126
01:23:54,780 --> 01:23:56,939
is actually one of the heaviest pigments,
1127
01:23:56,940 --> 01:23:59,419
so you can see the distribution
of some of these things.
1128
01:23:59,420 --> 01:24:02,699
And it tells you very important information
about how a picture is planned.
1129
01:24:02,700 --> 01:24:05,659
For example, you know, the sky
is sort of painted around the head.
1130
01:24:05,660 --> 01:24:08,579
The head isn't on top of it,
because we don't see that going through.
1131
01:24:08,580 --> 01:24:10,419
You learn all kinds of interesting things
1132
01:24:10,420 --> 01:24:11,939
that are often very revealing about
a particular painter's way of working,
1133
01:24:11,940 --> 01:24:15,059
that are often very revealing about
a particular painter's way of working,
1134
01:24:15,060 --> 01:24:18,139
certain mannerisms of how he might
handle impasto, and all the rest.
1135
01:24:18,140 --> 01:24:20,179
But the fascinating thing about this picture,
1136
01:24:20,180 --> 01:24:22,179
which many of you
may have already worked out,
1137
01:24:22,180 --> 01:24:25,459
is that if you turn it sideways,
there's another picture.
1138
01:24:25,460 --> 01:24:28,979
And this is very, very unusual
for this kind of picture.
1139
01:24:28,980 --> 01:24:30,744
Rembrandt did this a great deal,
1140
01:24:30,820 --> 01:24:32,579
something like a quarter of his self-portraits
are recycled and reused,
1141
01:24:32,580 --> 01:24:34,579
something like a quarter of his self-portraits
are recycled and reused,
1142
01:24:34,580 --> 01:24:39,099
but it's very unusual in the context
of an important commission.
1143
01:24:39,100 --> 01:24:41,419
This is not a painting for the marketplace.
1144
01:24:41,420 --> 01:24:43,939
This picture was
for a rather important client.
1145
01:24:43,940 --> 01:24:48,779
So we can't be absolutely certain
about this underlying painting.
1146
01:24:48,780 --> 01:24:50,619
It... I think it's fair to say
1147
01:24:50,620 --> 01:24:53,219
it's the same sort of body type and
general characteristics as Frederick Rihel,
1148
01:24:53,220 --> 01:24:54,779
it's the same sort of body type and
general characteristics as Frederick Rihel,
1149
01:24:54,780 --> 01:24:59,779
so you might say that he may have changed
it in response to this event that happened,
1150
01:24:59,780 --> 01:25:01,539
is one theory.
1151
01:25:01,540 --> 01:25:05,579
This in itself is quite a bold
and very unusual composition.
1152
01:25:05,580 --> 01:25:07,979
There are more or less
no full-length portraits
1153
01:25:07,980 --> 01:25:12,379
after his experiences
with the reception of The Night Watch.
1154
01:25:12,380 --> 01:25:13,859
So that in itself is unusual,
1155
01:25:13,860 --> 01:25:14,499
So that in itself is unusual,
1156
01:25:14,500 --> 01:25:16,059
and to have this great empty space
1157
01:25:16,060 --> 01:25:19,099
with what look like trees
and the rest coming through
1158
01:25:19,100 --> 01:25:21,139
is quite fascinating.
1159
01:25:21,140 --> 01:25:23,899
But, for whatever reason,
of which we can't be certain,
1160
01:25:23,900 --> 01:25:29,748
this picture, which is probably not entirely
finished, but very far along, was changed.
1161
01:25:29,820 --> 01:25:32,459
And then we get into
some interesting things
1162
01:25:32,460 --> 01:25:34,339
about what happened when it was changed.
1163
01:25:34,340 --> 01:25:34,499
Because he, amazingly enough,
just turned it sideways and started again.
1164
01:25:34,500 --> 01:25:39,500
Because he, amazingly enough,
just turned it sideways and started again.
1165
01:25:40,140 --> 01:25:44,139
There's no priming
in between the two paintings.
1166
01:25:44,140 --> 01:25:48,139
There's a brown quartz, son of sandy
ground, very typical of late Rembrandt,
1167
01:25:48,140 --> 01:25:50,059
underneath the first composition,
1168
01:25:50,060 --> 01:25:54,859
but he just turned it and started right
on the other canvas, as best we can tell.
1169
01:25:54,860 --> 01:25:55,139
And away he went.
And it's interesting to think about that,
1170
01:25:55,140 --> 01:25:57,619
And away he went.
And it's interesting to think about that,
1171
01:25:57,620 --> 01:26:02,620
because oil paint becomes more
transparent naturally over the centuries,
1172
01:26:03,660 --> 01:26:07,739
slightly more transparent, and so that's
why you can often see pentimenti,
1173
01:26:07,740 --> 01:26:10,979
changes that were not intended to be seen.
1174
01:26:10,980 --> 01:26:13,745
Everyone thinks about, you know,
the horse's legs in Vel�zquez,
1175
01:26:13,820 --> 01:26:15,779
when you see three or four of them,
as he's adjusting it,
1176
01:26:15,780 --> 01:26:16,179
when you see three or four of them,
as he's adjusting it,
1177
01:26:16,180 --> 01:26:17,739
and you can see them coming through.
1178
01:26:17,740 --> 01:26:20,664
And there's a fair bit of that
happening in this picture.
1179
01:26:20,740 --> 01:26:23,019
I know the light's a little low in the evening,
1180
01:26:23,020 --> 01:26:26,779
but here, for example,
is the hat of the standing man.
1181
01:26:26,780 --> 01:26:30,539
And his face is here, so you can see
a little bit of the pink showing through.
1182
01:26:30,540 --> 01:26:33,939
And then some odd kind of shapes
coming through the horse's belly.
1183
01:26:33,940 --> 01:26:36,419
And they have to do
with the underlying composition.
1184
01:26:36,420 --> 01:26:36,899
And they have to do
with the underlying composition.
1185
01:26:36,900 --> 01:26:40,579
Now... now we're getting into interesting
problems of restoration history,
1186
01:26:40,580 --> 01:26:44,899
because, as I said, what you're seeing now
is a picture that's largely cleaned,
1187
01:26:44,900 --> 01:26:47,339
at least in the first sense
of the varnish coming off,
1188
01:26:47,340 --> 01:26:50,859
so you can see the kind of damages
that are very typical of a picture...
1189
01:26:50,860 --> 01:26:54,103
Actually, this picture's in a pretty good state
for its size and its age.
1190
01:26:54,220 --> 01:26:57,059
There are certain losses that, who knows
what the reasons are?
1191
01:26:57,060 --> 01:26:57,819
There are certain losses that, who knows
what the reasons are?
1192
01:26:57,820 --> 01:27:00,059
But there are other problems
with this picture
1193
01:27:00,060 --> 01:27:05,100
that I think result from previous restorers'
confusion about what was going on.
1194
01:27:05,220 --> 01:27:08,939
It's important to remember that
before the mid 19th century,
1195
01:27:08,940 --> 01:27:13,459
the kind of materials available to restorers
to thin or remove varnishes
1196
01:27:13,460 --> 01:27:17,139
was fairly limited,
they were fairly blunt instruments,
1197
01:27:17,140 --> 01:27:17,699
you couldn't really have
the distillation of organic solvents
1198
01:27:17,700 --> 01:27:19,899
you couldn't really have
the distillation of organic solvents
1199
01:27:19,900 --> 01:27:21,779
that you could know their reactions,
1200
01:27:21,780 --> 01:27:24,899
and really predict and understand
the chemistry of what was going on.
1201
01:27:24,900 --> 01:27:27,259
So there was often issues
with over-cleaning.
1202
01:27:27,260 --> 01:27:30,699
And I think what may have happened here
is that, if you think about Rembrandt
1203
01:27:30,700 --> 01:27:33,670
and his characteristic accents
of very thick impasto,
1204
01:27:33,740 --> 01:27:35,699
that create this wonderful relief,
1205
01:27:35,700 --> 01:27:38,819
there was a bit of that going on
from the underlying composition.
1206
01:27:38,820 --> 01:27:39,099
There was a bit of that going on
from the underlying composition.
1207
01:27:39,100 --> 01:27:43,099
And I imagine if you're cleaning
brown varnish off a brown painting,
1208
01:27:43,100 --> 01:27:46,661
and you suddenly start to see
some very exciting impasto,
1209
01:27:46,740 --> 01:27:50,299
that you know is Rembrandt,
it was quite exciting.
1210
01:27:50,300 --> 01:27:56,660
And we can't be absolutely certain, but,
for example, this ornament on the boot...
1211
01:27:56,740 --> 01:27:59,459
I think I've asked you about this
before, haven't I'?
1212
01:27:59,460 --> 01:27:59,739
I think I've asked you about this
before, haven't I'?
1213
01:27:59,740 --> 01:28:04,740
It's... it's unlike any... He's basically wearing
a kind of fancy dress hunting outfit,
1214
01:28:05,740 --> 01:28:10,499
you know, a typical militia kind of party gear,
with a vaguely martial idea.
1215
01:28:10,500 --> 01:28:12,899
And so this boot is along those lines too,
1216
01:28:12,900 --> 01:28:16,939
and has this odd ornament of a type
that I've never seen anywhere else.
1217
01:28:16,940 --> 01:28:20,099
And if you then refer back to this X-ray...
1218
01:28:20,100 --> 01:28:20,699
And if you then refer back to this X-ray...
1219
01:28:20,700 --> 01:28:22,304
Er, let's see.
1220
01:28:24,500 --> 01:28:27,819
The... Let's see, where am I?
1221
01:28:27,820 --> 01:28:31,427
Hello... There we are.
So it's this...
1222
01:28:32,620 --> 01:28:36,739
This thing on his boot
is actually the top of this kind of...
1223
01:28:36,740 --> 01:28:40,739
He's wearing a kind of tabard, jerkin,
kind of hunting, riding...
1224
01:28:40,740 --> 01:28:41,179
He's wearing a kind of tabard, jerkin,
kind of hunting, riding...
1225
01:28:41,180 --> 01:28:45,099
Funnily enough, he seems to be
in riding gear, the standing figure as well.
1226
01:28:45,100 --> 01:28:47,499
Maybe it's just
a son of country squire look.
1227
01:28:47,500 --> 01:28:50,139
But that's a detail
of his underlying costume.
1228
01:28:50,140 --> 01:28:54,099
Now, it could be that Rembrandt
just fortuitously thought,
1229
01:28:54,100 --> 01:28:56,059
"That's rather good, I'll use that."
1230
01:28:56,060 --> 01:28:58,499
But it does seem a little odd to me...
1231
01:28:58,500 --> 01:29:01,379
...because it's this perfect triangle,
it doesn't really curve,
1232
01:29:01,380 --> 01:29:01,979
...because it's this perfect triangle,
it doesn't really curve,
1233
01:29:01,980 --> 01:29:06,819
and the whole idea about this picture
is, with a very limited palette, he's...
1234
01:29:06,820 --> 01:29:10,711
Thank you. He's created this amazing thing
of the horse coming out on the diagonal.
1235
01:29:10,780 --> 01:29:12,899
Even the boot is Misting out
and coming up,
1236
01:29:12,900 --> 01:29:16,019
and if you think, the thing should be
probably a metre and a half higher,
1237
01:29:16,020 --> 01:29:19,379
you know, it's really coming down,
looking down in the way that the kind of...
1238
01:29:19,380 --> 01:29:21,144
Well, equestrian portraits of this type
1239
01:29:21,260 --> 01:29:22,019
are supposed to sort of create this
kind of grandeur and authority, if not power.
1240
01:29:22,020 --> 01:29:25,899
Are supposed to sort of create this
kind of grandeur and authority, if not power.
1241
01:29:25,900 --> 01:29:28,419
Think of the Vel�zquez Olivares
or something like that.
1242
01:29:28,420 --> 01:29:31,939
So this doesn't seem
to square with that to me.
1243
01:29:31,940 --> 01:29:34,059
But we'll be looking at that very closely.
1244
01:29:34,060 --> 01:29:37,339
I mean, we'll take a look with a microscope
and take some samples and see.
1245
01:29:37,340 --> 01:29:41,939
It looks to me like you can see traces of this
kind of mouse-coloured brown-grey paint,
1246
01:29:41,940 --> 01:29:42,659
within the impasto of the...
of the boot ornament,
1247
01:29:42,660 --> 01:29:46,142
within the impasto of the...
of the boot ornament,
1248
01:29:46,260 --> 01:29:50,151
which suggests to me
that this is an earlier, misguided cleaning.
1249
01:29:50,260 --> 01:29:55,260
You know, something quite different than,
say, the natural increase in transparency.
1250
01:29:55,300 --> 01:29:59,459
There's other evidence of very harsh
cleaning of this picture, anyway.
1251
01:29:59,460 --> 01:30:02,699
This kind of broken-up islands
that look a bit like sort of...
1252
01:30:02,700 --> 01:30:03,299
I don't know, fractals
or sort of steamy looking thing.
1253
01:30:03,300 --> 01:30:05,539
I don't know, fractals
or sort of steamy looking thing.
1254
01:30:05,540 --> 01:30:07,979
That's very typical kind of result
1255
01:30:07,980 --> 01:30:11,499
of undercutting
with harsh solvents or reagents.
1256
01:30:11,500 --> 01:30:13,099
So this picture has suffered a bit,
1257
01:30:13,100 --> 01:30:15,819
and I think there was much more
confusion in the lower areas,
1258
01:30:15,820 --> 01:30:18,579
where there is sort of
brown on brown on brown.
1259
01:30:18,580 --> 01:30:22,426
It's a little confusing if you're not
really aware of what's happening.
1260
01:30:23,620 --> 01:30:23,939
1261
01:30:23,940 --> 01:30:25,101
1262
01:32:05,460 --> 01:32:07,428
Easy...
1263
01:32:13,340 --> 01:32:13,419
In what sense does the work
that you do feed into the exhibition,
1264
01:32:13,420 --> 01:32:17,619
In what sense does the work
that you do feed into the exhibition,
1265
01:32:17,620 --> 01:32:20,019
beyond the fact that it made
the restoration possible?
1266
01:32:20,020 --> 01:32:22,379
In order
to conserve a picture,
1267
01:32:22,380 --> 01:32:24,979
you have to understand
the materials of which it's made,
1268
01:32:24,980 --> 01:32:27,899
how it's painted, what its condition is,
1269
01:32:27,900 --> 01:32:28,219
and, most of all,
how it's going to behave
1270
01:32:28,220 --> 01:32:30,539
and, most of all,
how it's going to behave
1271
01:32:30,540 --> 01:32:33,749
towards any proposed
conservation treatment.
1272
01:32:33,820 --> 01:32:38,820
What that means is that we can only
touch a picture if we can do it safely.
1273
01:32:39,460 --> 01:32:44,460
And one of the reasons why pictures
are investigated so carefully
1274
01:32:44,660 --> 01:32:47,619
for their physical and chemical state
1275
01:32:47,620 --> 01:32:48,859
is for the scientists at the gallery
to be able to advise restorers
1276
01:32:48,860 --> 01:32:52,619
is for the scientists at the gallery
to be able to advise restorers
1277
01:32:52,620 --> 01:32:57,620
on the kind of conservation treatment
they intend to use on the picture.
1278
01:32:57,900 --> 01:33:01,699
And, most of all,
so that we can guarantee
1279
01:33:01,700 --> 01:33:06,700
that what is done to a National Gallery
picture is absolutely safe for it.
1280
01:33:06,980 --> 01:33:09,499
How has our understanding
of Leonardo changed now,
1281
01:33:09,500 --> 01:33:11,019
How has our understanding
of Leonardo changed now,
1282
01:33:11,020 --> 01:33:13,539
having got to the end of this exhibition?
1283
01:33:13,540 --> 01:33:18,540
Well, there are in fact very few paintings
by Leonardo extant,
1284
01:33:18,860 --> 01:33:20,699
that have come down to us.
1285
01:33:20,700 --> 01:33:23,779
And so the study,
the intense study of one of them,
1286
01:33:23,780 --> 01:33:25,779
the National Gallery's
Virgin of the Rocks,
1287
01:33:25,780 --> 01:33:30,139
provided the most complete information
about Leonardo's painting technique.
1288
01:33:30,140 --> 01:33:31,744
Provided the most complete information
about Leonardo's painting technique.
1289
01:33:31,820 --> 01:33:35,499
We know quite a lot
about the way he drew on paper,
1290
01:33:35,500 --> 01:33:40,219
but, before this exhibition, and
before these studies were undertaken,
1291
01:33:40,220 --> 01:33:45,219
quite little was known about the actual way
in which Leonardo painted.
1292
01:33:45,220 --> 01:33:47,179
And now, we know a great deal more.
1293
01:33:47,180 --> 01:33:48,979
And what is it that we know'?
1294
01:33:48,980 --> 01:33:50,739
- Well, that's...
- Some of it.
1295
01:33:50,740 --> 01:33:51,259
Well, we know every detail of this picture.
1296
01:33:51,260 --> 01:33:54,379
Well, we know every detail of this picture.
1297
01:33:54,380 --> 01:33:59,059
It's one of the most intensively studied
pictures in the National Gallery collection.
1298
01:33:59,060 --> 01:34:02,179
So we know how Leonardo
prepared his panel,
1299
01:34:02,180 --> 01:34:04,059
what kind of ground he used.
1300
01:34:04,060 --> 01:34:08,579
We know that there were two phases
of drawing on this picture.
1301
01:34:08,580 --> 01:34:11,899
In fact, it went through a radical
transformation from an earlier design
1302
01:34:11,900 --> 01:34:12,459
In fact, it went through a radical
transformation from an earlier design
1303
01:34:12,460 --> 01:34:16,379
to the design that you now see
expressed in paint on the surface.
1304
01:34:16,380 --> 01:34:21,380
And what that means, in fact,
because of that transformation of design,
1305
01:34:21,420 --> 01:34:25,659
it means this picture's actually very
complicated in its manner of painting.
1306
01:34:25,660 --> 01:34:30,099
So we've been able to analyze what we'd
call the layer structure of the picture,
1307
01:34:30,100 --> 01:34:32,539
all the different layers of paint
that Leonardo applied
1308
01:34:32,540 --> 01:34:33,779
all the different layers of paint
that Leonardo applied
1309
01:34:33,780 --> 01:34:36,179
in working toward the first composition,
1310
01:34:36,180 --> 01:34:39,179
and then, his second,
finished, composition.
1311
01:34:39,180 --> 01:34:43,579
And we also know, in doing that,
a great deal about the materials.
1312
01:34:43,580 --> 01:34:48,179
For example, the pigments he used,
the binding media he used, and so on.
1313
01:34:48,180 --> 01:34:51,859
So we can provide
a very complete description
1314
01:34:51,860 --> 01:34:53,179
of how this work of an was created.
1315
01:34:53,180 --> 01:34:54,750
Of how this work of an was created.
1316
01:34:54,820 --> 01:34:58,699
Right, that's perfect.
I'm gonna work it down from there, OK?
1317
01:34:58,700 --> 01:35:00,509
All right.
1318
01:35:06,380 --> 01:35:08,539
What did we not know before?
1319
01:35:08,540 --> 01:35:11,619
When you plan the exhibitions,
you think about the different works
1320
01:35:11,620 --> 01:35:13,419
that you want to bring together,
1321
01:35:13,420 --> 01:35:13,819
you go and look at them, of course,
1322
01:35:13,820 --> 01:35:15,819
you go and look at them, of course,
1323
01:35:15,820 --> 01:35:18,379
and you're very familiar
with every individual work,
1324
01:35:18,380 --> 01:35:20,659
but you never actually see them together,
1325
01:35:20,660 --> 01:35:24,299
and that is the magic of any exhibition,
if ii works,
1326
01:35:24,300 --> 01:35:27,304
that there is a magic
that all of a sudden happens,
1327
01:35:27,420 --> 01:35:29,866
when works start talking to each other.
1328
01:35:29,980 --> 01:35:34,139
Sometimes, it doesn't happen, and then
you know that you've failed as a curator.
1329
01:35:34,140 --> 01:35:34,459
But when you see that it does happen,
1330
01:35:34,460 --> 01:35:36,508
But when you see that it does happen,
1331
01:35:37,460 --> 01:35:41,829
there are relationships that, all of a sudden,
start to become more evident,
1332
01:35:41,860 --> 01:35:46,707
there are new themes that you discover,
even during the exhibition.
1333
01:35:46,740 --> 01:35:50,419
You spend so much time preparing
for an exhibition, writing a catalogue,
1334
01:35:50,420 --> 01:35:53,151
thinking about
each individual work in detail,
1335
01:35:53,260 --> 01:35:55,099
but it is only when you see them
together in the same room
1336
01:35:55,100 --> 01:35:55,703
but it is only when you see them
together in the same room
1337
01:35:55,740 --> 01:35:57,708
that things start to become apparent.
1338
01:35:57,780 --> 01:36:02,707
So for us, over the last three months, living
with these works together in one space,
1339
01:36:02,780 --> 01:36:07,780
we have learned a great deal about how
Leonardo really developed as a painter,
1340
01:36:07,940 --> 01:36:10,819
how his students were responding
to him in Milan,
1341
01:36:10,820 --> 01:36:13,459
how others did not really respond to him
1342
01:36:13,460 --> 01:36:15,739
and just continued
to do what they were doing before,
1343
01:36:15,740 --> 01:36:15,899
and just continued
to do what they were doing before,
1344
01:36:15,900 --> 01:36:19,899
how he was working with his workshop,
how he collaborated with his students.
1345
01:36:19,900 --> 01:36:21,939
There are still very many open questions.
1346
01:36:21,940 --> 01:36:24,059
And I think we have also learned
a great deal
1347
01:36:24,060 --> 01:36:26,699
about the two versions of
The Virgin of the Rocks.
1348
01:36:26,700 --> 01:36:29,099
And still, it is a bit of a puzzle.
1349
01:36:29,100 --> 01:36:32,859
An historians have thought about it for,
I believe, over a hundred years
1350
01:36:32,860 --> 01:36:35,499
and they've tried to work out
the chronology
1351
01:36:35,500 --> 01:36:36,379
and the relationship
between these two paintings,
1352
01:36:36,380 --> 01:36:38,019
and the relationship
between these two paintings,
1353
01:36:38,020 --> 01:36:40,099
a commission
that is very well documented,
1354
01:36:40,100 --> 01:36:42,939
but yet, we don't quite know
why there are two pictures
1355
01:36:42,940 --> 01:36:44,510
and who painted them and when.
1356
01:37:00,700 --> 01:37:03,579
Originally, it was only men
who were allowed to model.
1357
01:37:03,580 --> 01:37:06,979
Early Renaissance artists
were drawing from men only,
1358
01:37:06,980 --> 01:37:11,030
and then having to sort of adapt those
drawings for the women in their paintings.
1359
01:37:11,100 --> 01:37:13,059
It was definitely a male profession,
1360
01:37:13,060 --> 01:37:16,269
because women would be seen as...
Prostitutes.
1361
01:37:16,340 --> 01:37:18,139
Ya. It wasn't the sort of thing
women could be seen to be doing.
1362
01:37:18,140 --> 01:37:19,710
Ya. It wasn't the sort of thing
women could be seen to be doing.
1363
01:37:19,740 --> 01:37:22,459
But it is always a decision,
when you're making a drawing,
1364
01:37:22,460 --> 01:37:24,979
you have to go for it,
because if you skirt around it,
1365
01:37:24,980 --> 01:37:27,019
- you get a very strange figure.
- It's there.
1366
01:37:27,020 --> 01:37:29,179
It's there. It's just part of everything else.
1367
01:37:29,180 --> 01:37:33,499
But you're right, you don't see... in the
gallery, you can't think of any examples.
1368
01:37:33,500 --> 01:37:35,468
- Yeah.
- I think it's a very...
1369
01:37:36,660 --> 01:37:38,779
- healthy thing to have life drawing.
- Mm.
1370
01:37:38,780 --> 01:37:39,019
- Healthy thing to have life drawing.
- Mm.
1371
01:37:39,020 --> 01:37:42,339
- Yeah, it's liberating, isn't it?
- I'm 51, it's the first time I've done it.
1372
01:37:42,340 --> 01:37:44,059
- If I did it when I was younger...
- Yeah.
1373
01:37:44,060 --> 01:37:47,179
- ...It might have changed my outlook.
- It just reminds you that...
1374
01:37:47,180 --> 01:37:49,059
- It's a very free experience.
- Exactly.
1375
01:37:49,060 --> 01:37:51,699
- To see a body as it is.
- Stripped of everything.
1376
01:37:51,700 --> 01:37:54,339
- And it's the safe environment as well.
- Yeah.
1377
01:37:54,340 --> 01:37:57,059
- It's a sort of encoded environment.
- No one starts giggling.
1378
01:37:57,060 --> 01:37:59,339
Yeah. And that it's just celebrating how...
1379
01:37:59,340 --> 01:37:59,419
- just how beautiful it is.
- How we are.
1380
01:37:59,420 --> 01:38:01,139
- Just how beautiful it is.
- How we are.
1381
01:38:01,140 --> 01:38:04,701
How beautiful we are, yeah.
It's a really good thing to just focus on.
1382
01:38:04,780 --> 01:38:06,589
And then it, as you say, it changes your...
1383
01:38:18,700 --> 01:38:20,059
Oh, it's blowing up!
1384
01:38:20,060 --> 01:38:20,743
Oh, it's blowing up!
1385
01:38:21,860 --> 01:38:23,819
Go... No, stay there!
1386
01:38:23,820 --> 01:38:26,471
Put the light...
put the lights carefully, yeah?
1387
01:38:34,940 --> 01:38:39,309
Why don't you fuck off home and
leave fucking London alone, yeah?
1388
01:38:40,580 --> 01:38:40,699
You fucking idiots. Yeah?
1389
01:38:40,700 --> 01:38:42,659
You fucking idiots. Yeah?
1390
01:38:42,660 --> 01:38:44,859
I suggest
you keep your mouth closed.
1391
01:38:44,860 --> 01:38:46,828
1392
01:39:04,100 --> 01:39:06,068
1393
01:39:07,740 --> 01:39:09,708
1394
01:39:28,020 --> 01:39:30,341
1395
01:39:48,740 --> 01:39:51,141
It's this question of
what's the water doing?
1396
01:39:51,260 --> 01:39:54,699
If you could just nail
what the role of the water is.
1397
01:39:54,700 --> 01:39:58,739
We're saying here how he's doing
the thing that we've already talked about.
1398
01:39:58,740 --> 01:40:01,903
And that'll be about endings and...
1399
01:40:02,740 --> 01:40:03,259
- Erm...
- OK, just help me with one thing...
1400
01:40:03,260 --> 01:40:04,899
- Erm...
- OK, just help me with one thing...
1401
01:40:04,900 --> 01:40:08,461
- The passing and everything...
- Right, help me with one thing.
1402
01:40:09,500 --> 01:40:13,819
- Erm... Cuyp... let's say...
- Yeah. Yeah.
1403
01:40:13,820 --> 01:40:19,429
- ...has cows, tree, grass, light.
- Yeah.
1404
01:40:21,620 --> 01:40:23,899
If Cuyp's work...
Is Cuyp's work a... a metaphor?
1405
01:40:23,900 --> 01:40:25,299
If Cuyp's work...
Is Cuyp's work a... a metaphor?
1406
01:40:25,300 --> 01:40:27,899
Or just a cute picture of a cow
and grass?
1407
01:40:27,900 --> 01:40:29,019
- No.
- OK. What...
1408
01:40:29,020 --> 01:40:31,099
- Nor's this. We're just saying it is.
- Right.
1409
01:40:31,100 --> 01:40:34,099
What I'm getting at is, basically,
if that weren't water...
1410
01:40:34,100 --> 01:40:36,099
- Mm.
- If that was afield...
1411
01:40:36,100 --> 01:40:38,299
How is the water metaphorical,
you're saying?
1412
01:40:38,300 --> 01:40:40,299
Yeah, how does it help him
generate metaphor?
1413
01:40:40,300 --> 01:40:41,711
- OK...
- Do you see what I mean?
1414
01:40:41,780 --> 01:40:43,299
Yeah, but let me do it, then.
1415
01:40:43,300 --> 01:40:45,019
I can see what you mean,
I'm now gonna do it.
1416
01:40:45,020 --> 01:40:45,350
I can see what you mean,
I'm now gonna do it.
1417
01:40:46,300 --> 01:40:48,419
- Are these your glasses? No.
- No.
1418
01:40:48,420 --> 01:40:51,583
No, they're mine. They're mine.
They're mine. Thanks.
1419
01:40:55,820 --> 01:40:57,504
- OK. Got it.
- OK.
1420
01:41:06,540 --> 01:41:07,739
Action.
1421
01:41:07,740 --> 01:41:11,699
The Fighting Temeraire.
How different the mood would be
1422
01:41:11,700 --> 01:41:15,546
- if it weren't for the accent of...
- That's just coming off...
1423
01:41:17,620 --> 01:41:19,031
Still set.
1424
01:41:20,460 --> 01:41:22,099
Action.
1425
01:41:22,100 --> 01:41:25,739
The Fighting Temeraire.
How different the mood would be
1426
01:41:25,740 --> 01:41:26,299
if it weren't for the accent
of that black buoy.
1427
01:41:26,300 --> 01:41:29,819
If it weren't for the accent
of that black buoy.
1428
01:41:29,820 --> 01:41:34,099
But how exactly Turner gets
the balance between the two blacks,
1429
01:41:34,100 --> 01:41:39,100
the buoy and the tug, with that
precise sense of space between them,
1430
01:41:39,660 --> 01:41:44,660
the massive, heavy treatment of the sunset,
and then the subtle glow beneath,
1431
01:41:45,060 --> 01:41:46,939
it's very hard to say where light
meets darkness,
1432
01:41:46,940 --> 01:41:48,739
it's very hard to say where light
meets darkness,
1433
01:41:48,740 --> 01:41:51,141
so subtle is the grade.
1434
01:41:51,260 --> 01:41:55,899
How he gets all those things is
the essence of the success of the picture.
1435
01:41:55,900 --> 01:42:00,579
Water becomes a metaphor for feeling,
1436
01:42:00,580 --> 01:42:02,939
for yearning, the sense of loss,
1437
01:42:02,940 --> 01:42:07,707
the depth of emotion
that his subject is about.
1438
01:42:07,780 --> 01:42:11,299
A metaphor is a literary thing,
that comes from the mind.
1439
01:42:11,300 --> 01:42:15,299
But the painting is made powerful
by what's actually in it.
1440
01:42:15,300 --> 01:42:18,819
The precise shapes of those sails,
1441
01:42:18,820 --> 01:42:20,902
with the light shining on them.
1442
01:42:22,540 --> 01:42:27,379
And then, their repeat
in the sliver of light by the black buoy.
1443
01:42:27,380 --> 01:42:31,899
And then, the wonderful,
lively fullness of that sunset,
1444
01:42:31,900 --> 01:42:37,066
and the placid shimmer
of the blue cityscape on the horizon.
1445
01:42:38,020 --> 01:42:43,020
It's through the doing and the redoing
of all those calling and answering elements
1446
01:42:43,460 --> 01:42:49,786
that Turner makes light on the Thames
into such a tremendous metaphor.
1447
01:43:01,780 --> 01:43:03,987
OK. That will work.
1448
01:43:05,060 --> 01:43:07,379
1449
01:43:07,380 --> 01:43:09,428
1450
01:43:15,900 --> 01:43:18,339
1451
01:43:18,340 --> 01:43:20,502
Bit tricky with the leads.
1452
01:43:29,980 --> 01:43:31,948
Go behind you...
1453
01:43:34,740 --> 01:43:36,708
Got no handholds this time.
1454
01:43:47,300 --> 01:43:48,540
OK.
1455
01:44:01,580 --> 01:44:03,548
- That's it.
- Yeah.
1456
01:44:06,700 --> 01:44:08,828
- There we go, same again.
- OK.
1457
01:44:14,340 --> 01:44:17,310
Uh... I can get one. Hang on a sec.
1458
01:44:24,660 --> 01:44:26,469
1459
01:44:48,460 --> 01:44:50,303
- So... OK.
- 120.
1460
01:44:57,020 --> 01:44:58,988
Go all the way up.
1461
01:45:01,300 --> 01:45:05,579
OK. Good. Obviously, it's not a problem
because of that shadow.
1462
01:45:05,580 --> 01:45:08,743
- That's right.
- And how about the right wing'?
1463
01:45:12,980 --> 01:45:14,948
Did, erm...
1464
01:45:17,780 --> 01:45:20,386
Would these have adjusted down
on autumn?
1465
01:45:21,380 --> 01:45:24,179
- Haven't the levels dropped?
- The new fittings that you've added
1466
01:45:24,180 --> 01:45:25,899
will stay at a hundred per cent.
1467
01:45:25,900 --> 01:45:30,619
But the other fittings that were in the room
previously will have dropped, possibly.
1468
01:45:30,620 --> 01:45:33,146
Maybe what we should do
is close the blinds again,
1469
01:45:33,260 --> 01:45:37,549
and set everything back
to the full output level.
1470
01:45:40,980 --> 01:45:44,143
- But these should be at a hundred.
- Exactly. Yes.
1471
01:45:44,260 --> 01:45:46,099
- Darren!
- Yep'?
1472
01:45:46,100 --> 01:45:49,946
Come back to the...
the light on the centre panel.
1473
01:45:50,820 --> 01:45:54,579
Can you see enough from up there
to see what's happening'?
1474
01:45:54,580 --> 01:45:57,579
- Yep.
- We've got a huge frame shadow.
1475
01:45:57,580 --> 01:46:00,619
I don't think there's going to be anything
we can do about that.
1476
01:46:00,620 --> 01:46:05,579
It's because the frames are causing it
to sit behind the glass so far back.
1477
01:46:05,580 --> 01:46:08,139
- Right.
- But...
1478
01:46:08,140 --> 01:46:10,499
Do you have your card handy?
1479
01:46:10,500 --> 01:46:13,499
Put your card over the first fixture.
1480
01:46:13,500 --> 01:46:15,619
Take it away.
1481
01:46:15,620 --> 01:46:18,099
Again.
1482
01:46:18,100 --> 01:46:20,068
Take it away.
1483
01:46:24,540 --> 01:46:26,819
Take it away.
1484
01:46:26,820 --> 01:46:29,630
Tweak that one up a wee bit too.
1485
01:46:32,940 --> 01:46:34,819
There you go.
1486
01:46:34,820 --> 01:46:36,982
OK, move along to the next.
1487
01:46:40,860 --> 01:46:42,828
Take it away.
1488
01:46:44,300 --> 01:46:47,031
Again. Take it away.
1489
01:46:49,180 --> 01:46:51,547
Let me let my eyes adjust a moment.
1490
01:46:54,020 --> 01:46:58,025
I forgot my sunglasses this morning.
I always bring my sunglasses up.
1491
01:46:58,660 --> 01:47:01,140
- Good.
- Kevin.
1492
01:47:03,420 --> 01:47:05,866
So that's 150 at the top.
1493
01:47:08,420 --> 01:47:11,739
All right, there, we're getting
more in line now. Good.
1494
01:47:11,740 --> 01:47:14,619
Good. Let's check the centre panel again,
1495
01:47:14,620 --> 01:47:17,271
because we've added this light.
1496
01:47:18,140 --> 01:47:20,108
140.
1497
01:47:22,580 --> 01:47:24,742
And now the left... left wing.
1498
01:47:28,140 --> 01:47:29,899
- 140.
- That's a shame about the shadow,
1499
01:47:29,900 --> 01:47:32,859
- but I'm afraid there's just nothing...
- We've got to live with it.
1500
01:47:32,860 --> 01:47:36,342
Not without... backing it uncomfortably.
1501
01:47:37,780 --> 01:47:40,739
- Well, there's no more room, is there?
- There really isn't.
1502
01:47:40,740 --> 01:47:44,139
Wheelchairs... Let's go and use that...
1503
01:47:44,140 --> 01:47:47,781
You've been heroic.
With the exception of the shadow...
1504
01:47:50,060 --> 01:47:52,819
it's a lot better
than I thought it was gonna be.
1505
01:47:52,820 --> 01:47:55,019
So thank you guys very much.
1506
01:47:55,020 --> 01:47:56,988
No problem.
1507
01:48:04,380 --> 01:48:06,781
Go ahead, 0-1, over.
1508
01:48:07,740 --> 01:48:11,179
I'll take you to an extreme example.
We were discussing natural light,
1509
01:48:11,180 --> 01:48:14,299
and how now, no one notices
where the lighting is in the painting.
1510
01:48:14,300 --> 01:48:15,745
Like, where's this one lit from?
1511
01:48:16,740 --> 01:48:19,739
I think from this side...
Top left. Yeah.
1512
01:48:19,740 --> 01:48:23,659
And it's the fact that in the 17th century,
we know people were much more aware.
1513
01:48:23,660 --> 01:48:26,299
But when van der Doort
wrote the inventory for Charles I,
1514
01:48:26,300 --> 01:48:30,339
he recorded every painting and said
whether it was lit from the left or the right.
1515
01:48:30,340 --> 01:48:32,539
Which you just don't even do now.
1516
01:48:32,540 --> 01:48:36,099
Cos we're so used to electric light
coming down and doing it all for us,
1517
01:48:36,100 --> 01:48:37,939
- we don't realize...
- Right.
1518
01:48:37,940 --> 01:48:40,420
...It's important to record how it was.
1519
01:48:41,940 --> 01:48:44,579
I assume he did it
cos he was gonna hang the paintings
1520
01:48:44,580 --> 01:48:46,739
- according to which way they were lit.
- Yeah.
1521
01:48:46,740 --> 01:48:48,659
This was in a big church,
1522
01:48:48,660 --> 01:48:51,619
and you could probably find,
actually, which chapel it was in,
1523
01:48:51,620 --> 01:48:53,619
and see where the light was
during the day,
1524
01:48:53,620 --> 01:48:57,909
how it worked, what was
the optimum time for it to be viewed.
1525
01:48:58,740 --> 01:49:02,419
So he probably never imagined that
it would be shown in this kind of context,
1526
01:49:02,420 --> 01:49:04,149
with electric lighting and...
1527
01:49:04,260 --> 01:49:07,939
No, and that's something
that you have got to address, in a sense.
1528
01:49:07,940 --> 01:49:10,699
We don't address it, we say
everything's gonna be designed
1529
01:49:10,700 --> 01:49:13,619
- to be seen dead front on, evenly lit.
- Yeah.
1530
01:49:13,620 --> 01:49:15,659
I can give you one... Cos we're nearby...
1531
01:49:15,660 --> 01:49:20,029
Let's go to the Rubens gallery first.
I'll show you an extreme example of that.
1532
01:49:26,060 --> 01:49:29,819
OK, this is exceptional,
cos we know where this painting was.
1533
01:49:29,820 --> 01:49:34,579
And it still exists, the actual venue,
it was in Rockox's own house
1534
01:49:34,580 --> 01:49:36,459
and it was above his chimney piece.
1535
01:49:36,460 --> 01:49:41,019
And chimneys in the 17th century weren't
like these little miserable things we get now.
1536
01:49:41,020 --> 01:49:43,459
The height of a chimney
was always about here.
1537
01:49:43,460 --> 01:49:47,019
That's the top ledge of it.
So it would have been at least that high.
1538
01:49:47,020 --> 01:49:49,979
You've got to imagine...
You're gonna have to look down on the...
1539
01:49:49,980 --> 01:49:52,699
You know, the painting's way above you
and you're looking up.
1540
01:49:52,700 --> 01:49:55,299
You could actually walk into chimneys
in the 17th century.
1541
01:49:55,300 --> 01:49:57,419
And you can gum, the lighting's on the left.
1542
01:49:57,420 --> 01:50:00,499
OK? That's where the windows were.
The windows were quite high too.
1543
01:50:00,500 --> 01:50:04,939
Now, it has one immediate effect,
which you don't get now,
1544
01:50:04,940 --> 01:50:06,739
when you light it evenly,
1545
01:50:06,740 --> 01:50:09,059
is the lighting is stronger on the left,
1546
01:50:09,060 --> 01:50:11,819
because that's the source
of the natural light.
1547
01:50:11,820 --> 01:50:15,859
And therefore,
it picks up her very strongly,
1548
01:50:15,860 --> 01:50:18,739
and the five figures
in the doorway look very faint.
1549
01:50:18,740 --> 01:50:21,739
And that's worth noticing,
because you wouldn't expect that.
1550
01:50:21,740 --> 01:50:25,779
And now, in this light, they look almost
as if they're competing spatially,
1551
01:50:25,780 --> 01:50:28,899
and they're very bright, you know,
the guys coming in to arrest him.
1552
01:50:28,900 --> 01:50:31,028
But when you actually
put it in its original place,
1553
01:50:31,140 --> 01:50:32,939
and we did this a couple of years ago,
1554
01:50:32,940 --> 01:50:36,786
switch off all the electric lights, which
always takes a bit of persuading to do,
1555
01:50:36,860 --> 01:50:39,147
you'll find the painting clicks and pops,
1556
01:50:39,260 --> 01:50:42,579
because those guys
fade back into the distance
1557
01:50:42,580 --> 01:50:45,099
and this stuff, it almost looks too harsh.
1558
01:50:45,100 --> 01:50:48,379
Because the light's stronger,
it becomes much smoother.
1559
01:50:48,380 --> 01:50:51,179
He must have known he was doing that,
cos he's made the contrast.
1560
01:50:51,180 --> 01:50:53,819
See, the ground's sneaking
through between the white.
1561
01:50:53,820 --> 01:50:55,339
You can see the warm ground.
1562
01:50:55,340 --> 01:50:59,299
So he's made it to catch the light
and so this is the focal point.
1563
01:50:59,300 --> 01:51:02,459
Would he have painted it in the same light
as it would have been displayed?
1564
01:51:02,460 --> 01:51:04,659
- Yes, he probably painted it in situ.
- Mm.
1565
01:51:04,660 --> 01:51:08,499
I mean, there's quite a lot of evidence that
artists did go and place paintings in situ.
1566
01:51:08,500 --> 01:51:10,459
Rockox was a friend of his.
1567
01:51:10,460 --> 01:51:12,144
And if not, he would have touched it up.
1568
01:51:12,260 --> 01:51:14,339
And that brings you to a different problem.
1569
01:51:14,340 --> 01:51:16,579
What happens... He used tinted varnishes,
1570
01:51:16,580 --> 01:51:19,859
which we know existed
from Pliny's time in antiquity.
1571
01:51:19,860 --> 01:51:22,699
Cos he would have thought,
"Oh, that bit's now too bright."
1572
01:51:22,700 --> 01:51:24,659
- Yes.
- And if we clean them all off,
1573
01:51:24,660 --> 01:51:27,539
we think we're very scientific,
we strip all the varnish off,
1574
01:51:27,540 --> 01:51:30,139
and so we destroy any of that evidence.
1575
01:51:30,140 --> 01:51:35,140
Even when we find original varnish, we tend
to get very excited and take them off.
1576
01:51:35,300 --> 01:51:39,459
And so that's something we'll never know,
how much the artist toned it back.
1577
01:51:39,460 --> 01:51:41,299
But you can see in this painting...
1578
01:51:41,300 --> 01:51:43,699
I think the painting's much finer over here.
1579
01:51:43,700 --> 01:51:46,619
If you come here, see,
he's just done zigzags.
1580
01:51:46,620 --> 01:51:48,019
- Hasn't bothered...
- Yeah.
1581
01:51:48,020 --> 01:51:49,899
To do any real modeling at all.
1582
01:51:49,900 --> 01:51:52,019
Cos he knows this is the dark corner.
1583
01:51:52,020 --> 01:51:54,705
And he also knows it's above your eyeline.
1584
01:51:55,860 --> 01:51:57,828
And so you see these differences...
1585
01:51:59,340 --> 01:52:01,707
And he also knows the window
lets in the breeze,
1586
01:52:01,780 --> 01:52:04,899
so he's made the candle blow from the left.
1587
01:52:04,900 --> 01:52:07,499
Yeah, that's quite...
So you lose all that.
1588
01:52:07,500 --> 01:52:11,141
I mean, context is almost kind of crucial
for a painting like this.
1589
01:52:11,260 --> 01:52:15,299
And you read a lot of rubbish because
people say it's above a fireplace,
1590
01:52:15,300 --> 01:52:17,379
oh, it's the flickering firelight.
1591
01:52:17,380 --> 01:52:20,579
If you actually look at a firelight,
it doesn't reflect back.
1592
01:52:20,580 --> 01:52:23,979
The thing that light reflects off is floor.
1593
01:52:23,980 --> 01:52:26,859
And so, I mean, if this was a palace,
for instance,
1594
01:52:26,860 --> 01:52:30,659
and we can try it when we go to a
banqueting hall and switch off all the lights.
1595
01:52:30,660 --> 01:52:33,859
You know, how much light do you get
from the windows bouncing off the floor,
1596
01:52:33,860 --> 01:52:35,191
and illuminating the ceiling.
1597
01:52:35,260 --> 01:52:39,739
And you can test it... The only place I know
it really works well is Palazzo Barberini.
1598
01:52:39,740 --> 01:52:42,059
- Anyway, thank you very much.
- Yes.
1599
01:52:42,060 --> 01:52:43,585
See you.
See you.
1600
01:53:11,740 --> 01:53:14,419
Do you want the light?
Please.
1601
01:53:14,420 --> 01:53:16,388
Yeah, it's not doing...
1602
01:54:04,940 --> 01:54:06,863
1603
01:54:35,020 --> 01:54:38,103
Aaah. Not that square. Not that square.
1604
01:54:38,220 --> 01:54:40,666
1605
01:54:43,260 --> 01:54:44,785
1606
01:54:50,020 --> 01:54:51,749
1607
01:54:55,940 --> 01:55:00,219
- The Titian cuts across here.
- OK.
1608
01:55:00,220 --> 01:55:03,139
- So this would... This would be one wall.
- Yeah. Right, I get it.
1609
01:55:03,140 --> 01:55:06,779
So it's... it's 'within that... within that space.
1610
01:55:06,780 --> 01:55:08,623
So it's not a very big...
1611
01:55:08,740 --> 01:55:10,469
How far do you have
to be from the paintings? What...
1612
01:55:10,620 --> 01:55:12,739
- The barrier there.
- Oh, that's just the barrier.
1613
01:55:12,740 --> 01:55:14,230
- Yeah.
- And what is the barrier?
1614
01:55:14,300 --> 01:55:15,779
- It's...
- It's just a little...
1615
01:55:15,780 --> 01:55:19,619
It can be up for grabs, but it would be like...
probably like a rope...
1616
01:55:19,620 --> 01:55:20,701
- Yeah.
- Thing.
1617
01:55:20,940 --> 01:55:23,139
- OK. I think it's fine, space-wise.
- Yeah?
1618
01:55:23,140 --> 01:55:25,541
I don't think it's a problem.
What's the floor like?
1619
01:55:25,700 --> 01:55:29,147
Erm... it is concrete,
with wood over the top.
1620
01:55:29,340 --> 01:55:32,549
But maybe you could put
some vinyl or something'?
1621
01:55:32,740 --> 01:55:34,579
- Well...
- Actually, this is the floor.
1622
01:55:34,580 --> 01:55:37,539
- Shall we have a look at the floor?
- Yeah. It's concrete underneath.
1623
01:55:37,540 --> 01:55:39,819
It's oak, I think, over concrete.
1624
01:55:39,820 --> 01:55:41,499
I mean, I think we just have to look
1625
01:55:41,500 --> 01:55:44,579
at the visual aesthetic of the thing
to be in front of the Titians.
1626
01:55:44,580 --> 01:55:46,939
I just think, if you put
a floor intervention on there,
1627
01:55:46,940 --> 01:55:49,420
it might look a little bit... artificial.
1628
01:55:49,540 --> 01:55:50,871
- And actually...
- Yeah.
1629
01:55:50,940 --> 01:55:53,379
If it was Ed, you could
ask him if you would dance on that.
1630
01:55:53,380 --> 01:55:54,979
- As a question. So...
- Yes. OK.
1631
01:55:54,980 --> 01:55:57,379
Or Carlos. It's a question.
Would you mind...
1632
01:55:57,380 --> 01:55:59,939
- Dancing on that?
- Yeah, and they would have a point of view,
1633
01:55:59,940 --> 01:56:01,459
- and we'd respect it.
- Yeah. OK.
1634
01:56:01,460 --> 01:56:03,539
But I think the question
would have to be asked.
1635
01:56:03,540 --> 01:56:06,299
I don't think it'd be a problem.
They won't be doing massive...
1636
01:56:06,300 --> 01:56:08,099
- They're not...
- ...jumps and leaps...
1637
01:56:08,100 --> 01:56:10,059
- Even Carlos.
- Well, not in here, no.
1638
01:56:10,060 --> 01:56:12,139
- Yeah, even Carlos! Yeah...
- OK.
1639
01:56:12,140 --> 01:56:14,539
But I think, you know,
putting just dance floor...
1640
01:56:14,540 --> 01:56:16,139
- Like, a lino's no use.
- It's no use.
1641
01:56:16,140 --> 01:56:18,899
You'd have to build a sprung floor.
Then you get a whole other...
1642
01:56:18,900 --> 01:56:20,419
- That would be...
- ...dynamic.
1643
01:56:20,420 --> 01:56:22,741
If you come to a gallery
to dance in front of the Titians,
1644
01:56:22,820 --> 01:56:24,424
- that's the nature of the event.
- OK.
1645
01:56:24,500 --> 01:56:27,339
So one has to find what would
be the most appropriate thing.
1646
01:56:27,340 --> 01:56:29,308
Woman) OK.
1647
01:56:48,740 --> 01:56:50,939
So, good morning, everybody.
1648
01:56:50,940 --> 01:56:53,307
And thank you so much
for coming this morning.
1649
01:56:54,220 --> 01:56:56,859
'Titian called these works
something special.
1650
01:56:56,860 --> 01:56:59,659
He called them poems, "poesie".
1651
01:56:59,660 --> 01:57:04,499
And that was the first time
that an artist had referred to his works
1652
01:57:04,500 --> 01:57:07,151
in a way comparing himself
1653
01:57:07,260 --> 01:57:12,260
to the intellectual capacity of poets,
1654
01:57:13,380 --> 01:57:15,939
of poets of the ancient times.
1655
01:57:15,940 --> 01:57:20,940
And, of course, Titian's favourite poet,
who he was very familiar with,
1656
01:57:22,820 --> 01:57:27,701
and was able to read in the many
wonderful vernacular translations
1657
01:57:27,740 --> 01:57:29,739
that were circulating at that time,
1658
01:57:29,740 --> 01:57:34,740
was Ovid, who, of course,
was a Roman poet,
1659
01:57:35,740 --> 01:57:39,619
and who wrote the wonderful
Metamorphoses.
1660
01:57:39,620 --> 01:57:44,620
Ovid told these tales of the gods
from the Greek pantheon
1661
01:57:45,180 --> 01:57:50,220
with such a mixture of humour and levity,
1662
01:57:51,540 --> 01:57:54,703
and, at the same time,
1663
01:57:54,780 --> 01:57:58,619
acknowledging
the tragic elements of the...
1664
01:57:58,620 --> 01:58:03,620
of human beings son of tangled up
in the loves and affairs of the gods.
1665
01:58:05,100 --> 01:58:10,100
And it was these subjects that
Titian chose to send to Philip.
1666
01:58:11,420 --> 01:58:16,420
And I now just want to look at the picture
and see all the different tools
1667
01:58:17,660 --> 01:58:21,739
that 'Tahitian has used
to bring the story to life
1668
01:58:21,740 --> 01:58:24,823
and to make us really feel
1669
01:58:26,820 --> 01:58:29,459
all sons of different, conflicting emotions,
1670
01:58:29,460 --> 01:58:31,539
just as Ovid did.
1671
01:58:31,540 --> 01:58:34,819
And I think the reason
that Tahitian loved Ovid so much
1672
01:58:34,820 --> 01:58:38,427
was that he was tragicomic, yes,
1673
01:58:39,260 --> 01:58:42,699
but he was also a poet
that really used words
1674
01:58:42,700 --> 01:58:44,350
in a very, very visual way,
1675
01:58:45,020 --> 01:58:48,059
whereas Wan was a gainer
1676
01:58:48,060 --> 01:58:53,060
who could conjure up poetry visually.
1677
01:58:53,100 --> 01:58:56,739
And that's why,
in this famous letter to Philip,
1678
01:58:56,740 --> 01:58:59,141
he called these works poems.
1679
01:58:59,260 --> 01:59:04,260
And I think that as we sit there
and feel that lyrical quality emanating forth,
1680
01:59:05,980 --> 01:59:10,339
that we can understand why that was
1681
01:59:10,340 --> 01:59:12,741
and why they're still called
"poesie" to this day.
1682
01:59:24,940 --> 01:59:29,619
Today's ten-minute talk
is on Michelangelo's Entombment,
1683
01:59:29,620 --> 01:59:32,699
this large painting behind me.
1684
01:59:32,700 --> 01:59:36,659
This is quite an extraordinary example
of the National Gallery's collection.
1685
01:59:36,660 --> 01:59:41,059
I don't know if any of you were looking at it
and thought that it looked a bit odd.
1686
01:59:41,060 --> 01:59:46,059
There are some
really quite unusual features in this painting.
1687
01:59:46,060 --> 01:59:50,899
It's perhaps not the most typical way,
for example to represent the subject.
1688
01:59:50,900 --> 01:59:57,749
And also, well, I suppose what I most notice
about it is its unfinished stale.
1689
01:59:57,820 --> 02:00:01,739
That's quite a curious aspect
of what's going on.
1690
02:00:01,740 --> 02:00:04,339
I don't know what you think, but for me,
1691
02:00:04,340 --> 02:00:06,939
it's really great to have
mysteries and questions
1692
02:00:06,940 --> 02:00:09,779
hanging over paintings
that are 500 years old,
1693
02:00:09,780 --> 02:00:11,748
because sometimes,
we tend to look at them
1694
02:00:11,820 --> 02:00:14,744
and think because they're 500 years old,
1695
02:00:14,820 --> 02:00:17,187
we know everything
there is to know about them.
1696
02:00:17,300 --> 02:00:18,745
And, of course, that's not the case,
1697
02:00:18,820 --> 02:00:20,899
and every single one of us,
as an individual,
1698
02:00:20,900 --> 02:00:23,579
brings a different story
to a painting like this,
1699
02:00:23,580 --> 02:00:25,099
and sees something different.
1700
02:00:25,100 --> 02:00:28,939
I absolutely do see someone texting
on a mobile phone.
1701
02:00:28,940 --> 02:00:31,939
Of course, that's probably not
what everyone else sees at all.
1702
02:00:31,940 --> 02:00:36,339
But that's actually what can help
keep these paintings alive for us,
1703
02:00:36,340 --> 02:00:38,979
the mystery around
what the artist had intended,
1704
02:00:38,980 --> 02:00:41,711
because it's not always
completely obvious.
1705
02:00:41,780 --> 02:00:45,102
I'm going to stop there. If you do want
to ask questions, please do.
1706
02:01:13,820 --> 02:01:15,743
Something all artists are interested in
1707
02:01:15,820 --> 02:01:19,219
is how painting can kind of freeze reality.
1708
02:01:19,220 --> 02:01:23,939
So someone who died a long time ago
is still here, looking at us.
1709
02:01:23,940 --> 02:01:26,979
This lobster, which existed a long time ago,
1710
02:01:26,980 --> 02:01:30,419
which now doesn't exist at all,
of course, is here, preserved.
1711
02:01:30,420 --> 02:01:33,788
The amazing preservation, and here it is.
1712
02:01:33,860 --> 02:01:35,862
The drinking horn still exists.
1713
02:01:35,940 --> 02:01:39,739
It's probably the only thing in the painting,
I imagine, that does still exist.
1714
02:01:39,740 --> 02:01:41,788
But it's that idea of something
being ephemeral,
1715
02:01:41,820 --> 02:01:44,139
something like a lemon.
1716
02:01:44,140 --> 02:01:47,110
And artists were really intrigued
by the idea that they could do that,
1717
02:01:47,180 --> 02:01:49,706
preserve something forever, really.
1718
02:01:49,740 --> 02:01:53,539
Well, it won't last forever,
but it'll last longer than us,
1719
02:01:53,540 --> 02:01:55,699
barring some disaster.
1720
02:01:55,700 --> 02:01:57,668
And that's an interesting idea.
1721
02:01:59,180 --> 02:02:01,739
I'll tell you a joke about Moses.
1722
02:02:01,740 --> 02:02:04,539
He goes up... This is not true.
1723
02:02:04,540 --> 02:02:08,539
He goes up onto the mountain,
comes down with the Ten Commandments.
1724
02:02:08,540 --> 02:02:11,459
And he gathers the Israelites around him,
1725
02:02:11,460 --> 02:02:15,179
and he says, "OK, guys. I've been up there,
I've had a word with Him.
1726
02:02:15,180 --> 02:02:17,819
"Do you want the good news
or the bad news?"
1727
02:02:17,820 --> 02:02:22,419
And they say, "Good news." He says, "The
good news is, I've got Him down to ten.
1728
02:02:22,420 --> 02:02:25,230
"The bad news is
that adultery's still on the list."
1729
02:02:28,940 --> 02:02:33,940
Anyway, this painting got vandalized
a couple of months ago.
1730
02:02:33,980 --> 02:02:37,701
Some crazy guy came in
with a red aerosol.
1731
02:02:37,780 --> 02:02:41,059
Luckily, they got the restoration team
in straightaway,
1732
02:02:41,060 --> 02:02:43,711
took it down, took it away,
worked all night.
1733
02:02:43,780 --> 02:02:45,819
And I came in the next morning,
and it was...
1734
02:02:45,820 --> 02:02:47,179
- Oh, it was already up?
- Yeah.
1735
02:02:47,180 --> 02:02:49,579
It was back up there, cleaned up, perfect.
1736
02:02:49,580 --> 02:02:52,059
Sadly, these things happen
from time to time.
1737
02:02:52,060 --> 02:02:54,619
But you just have to learn to live with it.
1738
02:02:54,620 --> 02:02:57,059
Now, let me show you the last Claude,
1739
02:02:57,060 --> 02:02:59,745
because there's a nice little story
attached to this one.
1740
02:03:02,740 --> 02:03:06,819
To come back to that research
on Watteau was fundamental.
1741
02:03:06,820 --> 02:03:10,579
Bringing the works together
was also an important element.
1742
02:03:10,580 --> 02:03:14,019
Now we will see from
what will come out of the...
1743
02:03:14,020 --> 02:03:16,859
- The copy...
- Of the study of the partition.
1744
02:03:16,860 --> 02:03:20,299
I have ordered a big electronic copy
of the partition,
1745
02:03:20,300 --> 02:03:22,699
and we have sent it to William Christie,
who believes -
1746
02:03:22,700 --> 02:03:25,019
and I think all the scholars believe -
1747
02:03:25,020 --> 02:03:29,819
that Watteau represented very accurately
every movement, musical movement,
1748
02:03:29,820 --> 02:03:32,379
- so it's not...
- Well, we've consulted...
1749
02:03:32,380 --> 02:03:37,059
- Yeah.
- ...a number of musicologists ourselves.
1750
02:03:37,060 --> 02:03:39,419
- Yeah.
- And the consensus now is
1751
02:03:39,420 --> 02:03:42,059
- that that is not a real...
- A real partition.
1752
02:03:42,060 --> 02:03:44,179
- It's not a real piece of music.
- OK.
1753
02:03:44,180 --> 02:03:47,150
Probably an energetic restorer put it in!
1754
02:03:47,260 --> 02:03:49,539
Well, yeah, whatever.
1755
02:03:49,540 --> 02:03:52,779
I mean, I haven't compared
the music in the painting
1756
02:03:52,780 --> 02:03:55,670
- with the music in the print line by line.
- I was going to ask.
1757
02:03:55,740 --> 02:03:59,099
That is something I must do.
But I am told that it's not a guitar piece,
1758
02:03:59,100 --> 02:04:01,739
because you would expect
a number of chords.
1759
02:04:01,740 --> 02:04:03,151
- OK.
- It's not a singing piece,
1760
02:04:03,260 --> 02:04:08,710
cos there are no words, other than there's
what appear to be the remains of a title.
1761
02:04:08,780 --> 02:04:11,419
- Yes.
- We can't actually make out what that is.
1762
02:04:11,420 --> 02:04:14,419
It's impossible to read,
and we've looked at that quite carefully.
1763
02:04:14,420 --> 02:04:17,185
- Yeah.
- Er... So if it's not a guitar piece,
1764
02:04:17,260 --> 02:04:20,099
and it's not a singing pan,
I mean, what is it?
1765
02:04:20,100 --> 02:04:23,379
We conclude that it might be...
1766
02:04:23,380 --> 02:04:28,339
the only possibility
is that it is music for the guitar
1767
02:04:28,340 --> 02:04:33,299
and that she is rather awkwardly
holding it like this,
1768
02:04:33,300 --> 02:04:35,979
so he can actually see what he's playing,
1769
02:04:35,980 --> 02:04:38,019
but, in fact, he's not playing, so...
1770
02:04:38,020 --> 02:04:40,579
- At that particular...
- So that was another...
1771
02:04:40,580 --> 02:04:42,708
So he's just "according" his guitar,
do you think?
1772
02:04:42,780 --> 02:04:44,459
- Because we...
- Tuning, yeah.
1773
02:04:44,460 --> 02:04:46,144
- Tuning, sorry.
- You mean tuning, yeah.
1774
02:04:46,260 --> 02:04:48,299
- Or is he playing, because...
- Yeah, but...
1775
02:04:48,300 --> 02:04:52,339
He could be... I don't know,
he could be about to, you know, tap it, or...
1776
02:04:52,340 --> 02:04:54,099
- Yeah.
- And on this,
1777
02:04:54,100 --> 02:04:58,459
there is some written documents, now,
from the different musicologist who did...
1778
02:04:58,460 --> 02:05:01,419
- I've got... I've got letters or emails.
- Correspondence.
1779
02:05:01,420 --> 02:05:03,459
- That could be... Can we...
- Yes, yes.
1780
02:05:03,460 --> 02:05:06,459
That's incorporated
into a draft catalogue entry
1781
02:05:06,460 --> 02:05:08,619
- which I wrote last year.
- OK.
1782
02:05:08,620 --> 02:05:11,579
OK. That we can...
We could use this information?
1783
02:05:11,580 --> 02:05:14,539
- You could use this information.
- Because it would be interesting
1784
02:05:14,540 --> 02:05:19,419
to see who are these musicologists,
and seeing with Bill...
1785
02:05:19,420 --> 02:05:22,139
as I would say he's more a musician
than a musicologist,
1786
02:05:22,140 --> 02:05:23,739
- I would say.
- Yeah.
1787
02:05:23,740 --> 02:05:26,859
The drawings I saw in Berlin,
1788
02:05:26,860 --> 02:05:29,139
there, we discovered that we...
1789
02:05:29,140 --> 02:05:33,339
with Bill, that we know which music
is performed at a place,
1790
02:05:33,340 --> 02:05:37,659
and it's so complex
in the positions on the instrument
1791
02:05:37,660 --> 02:05:39,659
that he must have known music.
1792
02:05:39,660 --> 02:05:42,419
Because that's still also an element
that was not clear.
1793
02:05:42,420 --> 02:05:44,619
- Yes.
- In these drawings,
1794
02:05:44,620 --> 02:05:48,219
it cannot be otherwise
than he knows how to play,
1795
02:05:48,220 --> 02:05:49,699
and knowing music.
1796
02:05:49,700 --> 02:05:52,539
- And that's also an element.
- That's an important thing to prove.
1797
02:05:52,540 --> 02:05:54,939
Yes. Yes. That's also the element
of the drawings
1798
02:05:54,940 --> 02:05:59,707
which are in the Kupferstichkabinett
by Dr Altcappenberg, in Berlin.
1799
02:05:59,780 --> 02:06:02,059
The... the...
1800
02:06:02,060 --> 02:06:04,619
The drawings we... I saw there last week.
1801
02:06:04,620 --> 02:06:07,299
And so, from the work
that was done by Bill,
1802
02:06:07,300 --> 02:06:10,819
he knows now that in the... in the...
1803
02:06:10,820 --> 02:06:13,979
in the different drawings,
there's one of an oboe,
1804
02:06:13,980 --> 02:06:15,982
then another one of a viola da gamba,
1805
02:06:17,380 --> 02:06:19,139
and there's no scores there.
1806
02:06:19,140 --> 02:06:21,142
There's only drawings of positions.
1807
02:06:21,260 --> 02:06:23,379
- So you have the...
- They're convincing, yeah.
1808
02:06:23,380 --> 02:06:26,419
Yes. And also how the... the complexity of...
1809
02:06:26,420 --> 02:06:31,420
We've several musicians, also, from the
Berliner Philharmoniker who came to see,
1810
02:06:33,140 --> 02:06:36,299
and everyone is convinced
you cannot draw if you don't know music.
1811
02:06:36,300 --> 02:06:38,951
- Yeah.
- It's like we would say...
1812
02:06:40,460 --> 02:06:45,500
In photography, it's like the... in film,
to make just that moment.
1813
02:06:46,620 --> 02:06:50,419
Yes. Mm. No, I think everybody accepts
that Watteau knew musicians,
1814
02:06:50,420 --> 02:06:52,499
and he knew his musical instruments.
1815
02:06:52,500 --> 02:06:54,339
I mean, that represents the type...
1816
02:06:54,340 --> 02:06:57,459
But it's clear that he was knowing music?
That's not clear for me.
1817
02:06:57,460 --> 02:07:00,099
Well, it's not clear that he actually
plays music himself.
1818
02:07:00,100 --> 02:07:01,859
- Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- No.
1819
02:07:01,860 --> 02:07:03,703
Which is a different thing.
1820
02:07:03,780 --> 02:07:07,099
But that represents a guitar
1821
02:07:07,100 --> 02:07:12,100
of a type that was being made
in Paris around 1700.
1822
02:07:12,980 --> 02:07:16,299
- Yeah.
- I mean, you know, that's pretty accurate.
1823
02:07:16,300 --> 02:07:18,939
Did I say the black's
been strengthened or not?
1824
02:07:18,940 --> 02:07:21,147
- Cos black's the most soluble paint.
- I don't know.
1825
02:07:21,260 --> 02:07:23,149
She's missing a few fingernails,
1826
02:07:23,260 --> 02:07:25,979
which makes you wonder,
did they also take off a few notes?
1827
02:07:25,980 --> 02:07:29,339
You've got to be very careful interpreting
what is now there
1828
02:07:29,340 --> 02:07:30,979
- as musical notes.
- OK.
1829
02:07:30,980 --> 02:07:34,899
- Yeah.
- Anyway... it's good to hear the case.
1830
02:07:34,900 --> 02:07:37,099
- Yeah.
- You were a surprise...
1831
02:07:37,100 --> 02:07:39,899
And good luck with your exhibition,
whatever happens.
1832
02:07:39,900 --> 02:07:41,504
- Danke, danke.
- Thank you.
1833
02:07:45,500 --> 02:07:47,699
She's just looking too...
1834
02:07:47,700 --> 02:07:49,539
Well, I think - I know I'm biased -
1835
02:07:49,540 --> 02:07:51,739
I think it�s the most beautiful room
in the gallery.
1836
02:07:51,740 --> 02:07:54,659
- What are you going to say?
- Look at that, the Subleyras.
1837
02:07:54,660 --> 02:07:57,819
- Yeah.
- I mean, that's...
1838
02:07:57,820 --> 02:07:59,948
Have a look.
1839
02:08:00,860 --> 02:08:04,579
- That touch, that very delicate...
- Yeah, delicate touch.
1840
02:08:04,580 --> 02:08:08,979
...touch, you know, she can't believe...
1841
02:08:08,980 --> 02:08:11,939
She's totally in love
with this shepherd boy.
1842
02:08:11,940 --> 02:08:15,149
You know, she just can't believe
how beautiful he is.
1843
02:08:15,260 --> 02:08:16,859
And she's got to just touch him
1844
02:08:16,860 --> 02:08:19,739
- to make sure that he's real.
- That he's real.
1845
02:08:19,740 --> 02:08:22,823
And the dogs! That dog is amazing.
1846
02:08:24,020 --> 02:08:26,179
- Anyway.
- Yeah. Well, I'm glad...
1847
02:08:26,180 --> 02:08:29,019
- I mustn't keep you.
- That's...
1848
02:08:29,020 --> 02:08:31,339
It's lovely to be back.
1849
02:08:31,340 --> 02:08:33,627
Well, you must come
and see us more often.
1850
02:08:35,340 --> 02:08:37,379
And in the middle
of the 16th century,
1851
02:08:37,380 --> 02:08:40,939
we have something called the
Counter-Reformation taking place
1852
02:08:40,940 --> 02:08:45,699
in Italy, in response
to the challenge of Luther,
1853
02:08:45,700 --> 02:08:49,699
as he challenges the Catholic Church.
1854
02:08:49,700 --> 02:08:54,419
And what he... one of the things that comes
into question is the value of images.
1855
02:08:54,420 --> 02:08:59,420
Are images dangerous, because they are
likely to be understood as replicants of God
1856
02:08:59,740 --> 02:09:02,579
or replicants of figures from the Bible?
1857
02:09:02,580 --> 02:09:04,379
Or are they important
1858
02:09:04,380 --> 02:09:09,380
as a way into understanding
the word of God as it was written?
1859
02:09:09,620 --> 02:09:12,099
So this is a debate that's taking place,
1860
02:09:12,100 --> 02:09:15,707
and what happens in Italy
is there is a proliferation of images.
1861
02:09:15,780 --> 02:09:18,339
In other words, the response
is to make more images,
1862
02:09:18,340 --> 02:09:21,059
and to make them
as emotional as possible,
1863
02:09:21,060 --> 02:09:25,619
so that you feel a sense within yourself
of what is... what is happening.
1864
02:09:25,620 --> 02:09:29,059
And the message is one of fraternal love.
It's a universal message,
1865
02:09:29,060 --> 02:09:31,499
and it's something
that we can all relate to.
1866
02:09:31,500 --> 02:09:34,739
And the idea is that you go away
from the experience of viewing
1867
02:09:34,740 --> 02:09:37,061
feeling more love
towards your fellow man.
1868
02:09:44,860 --> 02:09:47,499
I gum
all I would like to point out here
1869
02:09:47,500 --> 02:09:50,709
is that, having seen that issue
with the blanched ground downstairs,
1870
02:09:50,780 --> 02:09:52,659
and how that disrupted that space,
1871
02:09:52,660 --> 02:09:56,739
I think you might have your eye in enough
to start to recognize it here.
1872
02:09:56,740 --> 02:09:59,859
I mean, the more dramatic examples
are something like this,
1873
02:09:59,860 --> 02:10:02,139
where you've got the parts of the table.
1874
02:10:02,140 --> 02:10:04,179
Again, this isn't him correcting something,
1875
02:10:04,180 --> 02:10:08,019
but the actual paint he's subsequently
applied on top of the ground
1876
02:10:08,020 --> 02:10:10,459
is very close in colour
to what that would have been.
1877
02:10:10,460 --> 02:10:12,699
He certainly didn't intend
a great blotchy space.
1878
02:10:12,700 --> 02:10:15,619
And again, we have more and more
empirical evidence about that,
1879
02:10:15,620 --> 02:10:18,739
beyond just looking at the material itself.
1880
02:10:18,740 --> 02:10:23,740
This rather pale thing is absolutely...
it's a strong shadow cast from her arm.
1881
02:10:24,180 --> 02:10:27,499
You see it, the way it goes up the side
of the table and makes a sharp angle.
1882
02:10:27,500 --> 02:10:29,739
It's the cast shadow of the arm falling.
1883
02:10:29,740 --> 02:10:33,819
And so, obviously,
that must be a darker value than this.
1884
02:10:33,820 --> 02:10:36,539
And, see, that gets to the core
of what I was saying downstairs
1885
02:10:36,540 --> 02:10:39,539
about when the pigment change
is so localized
1886
02:10:39,540 --> 02:10:42,819
that it's really quite disruptive
to understanding what the thing is.
1887
02:10:42,820 --> 02:10:47,339
That is a different kind of argument
about what you might do as a restorer
1888
02:10:47,340 --> 02:10:52,139
to correct that, or at least to reduce
the effects of... problematic effects.
1889
02:10:52,140 --> 02:10:54,099
One of the most fundamental issues...
1890
02:10:54,100 --> 02:10:55,659
Well, I wouldn't say problematic,
1891
02:10:55,660 --> 02:10:58,739
but it's certainly an open question
where this picture is concerned,
1892
02:10:58,740 --> 02:11:01,939
and it has to do with the basic construction
of the space, where the wall is,
1893
02:11:01,940 --> 02:11:03,179
is that a window'?
1894
02:11:03,180 --> 02:11:05,579
Is it a picture of a picture?
All those kinds of issues.
1895
02:11:05,580 --> 02:11:09,659
Anyway, the evidence provided
by the ground and the shadows
1896
02:11:09,660 --> 02:11:12,499
suggests that this table
is right up against the wall.
1897
02:11:12,500 --> 02:11:15,899
You have a painted shadow
here in black paint
1898
02:11:15,900 --> 02:11:19,139
of the fish's head against the wall,
which tells you that it's quite close,
1899
02:11:19,140 --> 02:11:21,179
and the fact that that's cast there,
1900
02:11:21,180 --> 02:11:26,180
I think is also pretty important in...
in fixing where that thing sits in space.
1901
02:11:26,900 --> 02:11:29,619
Again, this kind of ground colour here,
1902
02:11:29,620 --> 02:11:33,419
and then mixed with a bit of white,
an applied shadow,
1903
02:11:33,420 --> 02:11:35,419
it all kind of starts to make sense.
1904
02:11:35,420 --> 02:11:39,739
This has still got quite a bit of retouching
that needs to be done.
1905
02:11:39,740 --> 02:11:41,539
And you can see the brush wipings here
1906
02:11:41,540 --> 02:11:44,499
that are partially covered in
ground-coloured paint by Vel�zquez,
1907
02:11:44,500 --> 02:11:46,659
and have been exposed by old cleanings,
1908
02:11:46,660 --> 02:11:50,379
and you have the basic ground colour,
a darker shadow,
1909
02:11:50,380 --> 02:11:53,419
and what would have probably been
an even darker one into the table.
1910
02:11:53,420 --> 02:11:56,902
It all starts to make sense
if you start to substitute this colour.
1911
02:11:57,940 --> 02:12:00,419
But I think you... I hope you might agree
1912
02:12:00,420 --> 02:12:04,859
that this, then, is pretty fundamental
to understanding what's going on.
1913
02:12:04,860 --> 02:12:08,019
Similarly, this area of the old woman's chin,
1914
02:12:08,020 --> 02:12:11,459
it sort of comes forward, now,
in a sort of Cubist way,
1915
02:12:11,460 --> 02:12:13,739
and that's, again,
because of blanched ground.
1916
02:12:13,740 --> 02:12:14,819
It should be much darker.
1917
02:12:14,820 --> 02:12:18,539
So if you start to, wherever you see this,
substitute a darker value,
1918
02:12:18,540 --> 02:12:21,699
I think all kinds of things
start falling into place
1919
02:12:21,700 --> 02:12:24,059
about the way the elements are modeled,
1920
02:12:24,060 --> 02:12:26,819
and where they are
in relation to one another.
1921
02:12:26,820 --> 02:12:31,019
And it's such a limited palette
and such an austere kind of image,
1922
02:12:31,020 --> 02:12:35,179
I think these issues
are really pretty fundamental
1923
02:12:35,180 --> 02:12:37,979
to your reading
and understanding of the picture.
1924
02:12:37,980 --> 02:12:40,019
And what he's trying to do.
1925
02:12:40,020 --> 02:12:44,179
So that's why we might take
a slightly different view
1926
02:12:44,180 --> 02:12:46,387
about how to approach its retouching.
1927
02:12:47,300 --> 02:12:51,703
Everything that Larry is now doing
in terms of retouching
1928
02:12:51,780 --> 02:12:54,819
is on top of a layer of varnish.
1929
02:12:54,820 --> 02:12:57,819
That, once it's cleaned, it's varnished,
1930
02:12:57,820 --> 02:13:00,059
and then Larry works on top of the varnish,
1931
02:13:00,060 --> 02:13:02,419
so that all the work that he does,
1932
02:13:02,420 --> 02:13:07,019
the tens, if not hundreds of hours
that goes into restoring a picture,
1933
02:13:07,020 --> 02:13:09,979
the next time it's cleaned, it comes right off.
1934
02:13:09,980 --> 02:13:14,699
The whole... the basic principle
of modern conservation
1935
02:13:14,700 --> 02:13:17,819
is that anything that we do
should be reversible.
1936
02:13:17,820 --> 02:13:21,819
That the next generation
can reverse it very easily.
1937
02:13:21,820 --> 02:13:25,459
Months or years of work
is gone in 15 minutes.
1938
02:13:25,460 --> 02:13:27,739
That's... that's OK.
1939
02:13:27,740 --> 02:13:32,299
It... it gets to the core of how you feel
about whether this is a document
1940
02:13:32,300 --> 02:13:35,859
or a kind of... an archaeological thing,
1941
02:13:35,860 --> 02:13:38,939
or whether you want to restore it
as an image you read.
1942
02:13:38,940 --> 02:13:41,739
And how confident you are
in what you're doing.
1943
02:13:41,740 --> 02:13:45,299
It's not just because I... Dawson
and I scratch our heads and think,
1944
02:13:45,300 --> 02:13:47,419
'Wouldn't it be lovely
if that was this or that?"
1945
02:13:47,420 --> 02:13:52,379
It's based on an understanding
of the material, historical sources,
1946
02:13:52,380 --> 02:13:56,659
and comparative images, and evidence,
as I showed you downstairs,
1947
02:13:56,660 --> 02:14:01,619
of Vel�zquez himself mixing colours
to match the ground that he used.
1948
02:14:01,620 --> 02:14:03,739
So it's important to remember that, too.
1949
02:14:03,740 --> 02:14:07,979
There are really good reasons
for the decisions we take
1950
02:14:07,980 --> 02:14:10,299
in matters like this.
1951
02:14:10,300 --> 02:14:14,779
I just wanna also make sure that you
understand what Larry has been saying
1952
02:14:14,780 --> 02:14:18,023
about him using the ground colour
in the modeling.
1953
02:14:18,820 --> 02:14:23,189
That... that it was the original ground colour,
that he trusted,
1954
02:14:23,300 --> 02:14:27,099
and he thought, "Oh, that looks
just right in that shadow."
1955
02:14:27,100 --> 02:14:30,059
He doesn't cover it.
And this isn't just Vel�zquez.
1956
02:14:30,060 --> 02:14:34,099
There are lots of painters
who use ground colour in modeling
1957
02:14:34,100 --> 02:14:35,779
as a kind of mid-tone sometimes.
1958
02:14:35,780 --> 02:14:37,779
Caravaggio does it, for instance.
1959
02:14:37,780 --> 02:14:39,219
It's not at all uncommon.
1960
02:14:39,220 --> 02:14:43,659
The intent is to restore the thing
as a work of art that you read.
1961
02:14:43,660 --> 02:14:47,059
At the end of the process, that wall
should more or less carry on across,
1962
02:14:47,060 --> 02:14:51,099
going from light to dark in a way
that I hope you won't be able to see.
1963
02:14:51,100 --> 02:14:53,939
I don't want to leave the impression
that we believe
1964
02:14:53,940 --> 02:14:57,059
that our retouchings and restorations
make the picture look as it did.
1965
02:14:57,060 --> 02:15:00,379
You know, we're just trying to help you
understand what it is.
1966
02:15:00,380 --> 02:15:02,179
And maybe what it was, but not...
1967
02:15:02,180 --> 02:15:04,706
It's... it's a balancing act, but it's...
1968
02:15:04,780 --> 02:15:07,699
A restoration is not a... not a renewal.
1969
02:15:07,700 --> 02:15:11,379
No. Of course, they're physical objects
made of organic materials.
1970
02:15:11,380 --> 02:15:13,979
And the second that they're finished,
they start to age.
1971
02:15:13,980 --> 02:15:16,179
And that's... that's just that.
1972
02:15:16,180 --> 02:15:19,707
We haven't really talked
about the meaning of this.
1973
02:15:19,780 --> 02:15:23,459
It naturally invites some consideration
1974
02:15:23,460 --> 02:15:27,299
of the relationship of religion
to contemporary life.
1975
02:15:27,300 --> 02:15:31,539
The two women in the foreground are
clearly figures from contemporary life.
1976
02:15:31,540 --> 02:15:34,942
And one has to... has to wonder.
1977
02:15:35,860 --> 02:15:39,819
What's this really about?
Are they simply sewing people,
1978
02:15:39,820 --> 02:15:42,859
and the meal is going
to go through the hatch
1979
02:15:42,860 --> 02:15:45,459
and be sewed in the other room?
1980
02:15:45,460 --> 02:15:50,460
Or do they, in some way, represent
a modern-day Mary and Martha?
1981
02:15:50,580 --> 02:15:52,459
Do you remember the story?
1982
02:15:52,460 --> 02:15:55,299
Christ comes to visit Mary and Martha,
1983
02:15:55,300 --> 02:16:00,300
and Mary sits attentively at Christ's feet,
and listens to his teaching,
1984
02:16:01,140 --> 02:16:04,499
while Martha makes herself very busy
going about all the chem,
1985
02:16:04,500 --> 02:16:08,739
and then comes to complain
that she's been left to do everything
1986
02:16:08,740 --> 02:16:10,859
and Mary isn't helping.
1987
02:16:10,860 --> 02:16:13,979
And Christ chides her and says...
1988
02:16:13,980 --> 02:16:17,099
says, "Martha, Martha, you're
concerned about so many things.
1989
02:16:17,100 --> 02:16:20,179
"But Mary's really taken the better path in...
1990
02:16:20,180 --> 02:16:22,979
"in allowing time
for her spiritual development."
1991
02:16:22,980 --> 02:16:25,539
And so we have to ask ourselves,
is this...
1992
02:16:25,540 --> 02:16:28,739
is this Martha and Mary in the foreground,
in contemporary guise?
1993
02:16:28,740 --> 02:16:34,031
With the old woman chiding,
that gesture, saying, "Hurry up."
1994
02:16:34,100 --> 02:16:39,100
Or is it maybe the worker preparing
the garlic mayonnaise,
1995
02:16:39,500 --> 02:16:41,502
so busy at work,
1996
02:16:41,580 --> 02:16:46,580
and the older, wiser woman reminding
her to allow time for her spiritual life?
1997
02:16:49,740 --> 02:16:54,740
There are the great words used often
in relation to this painting
1998
02:16:55,340 --> 02:16:57,819
of St Teresa of Avila.
1999
02:16:57,820 --> 02:17:00,710
"The Lord walks
even among the kitchen pots,
2000
02:17:00,780 --> 02:17:03,511
"helping you in matters
spiritual and material."
2001
02:17:05,940 --> 02:17:08,989
We have to go over
to conservation studio number two.
2002
02:17:12,740 --> 02:17:15,819
2003
02:17:15,820 --> 02:17:17,788
2004
02:19:48,740 --> 02:19:50,105
2005
02:19:50,180 --> 02:19:52,148
Keep it up! Back to base!
2006
02:19:52,260 --> 02:19:54,228
2007
02:20:31,420 --> 02:20:33,661
I'm no longer visiting,
2008
02:20:33,740 --> 02:20:36,983
because in fact I have the...
2009
02:21:16,420 --> 02:21:18,422
Moved on from
the great and the good...
2010
02:22:25,740 --> 02:22:28,027
Hello.
2011
02:22:28,100 --> 02:22:30,139
What a treat to be here,
2012
02:22:30,140 --> 02:22:32,029
without lots and lots of people,
2013
02:22:32,100 --> 02:22:34,059
which I suppose it's going to attract.
2014
02:22:34,060 --> 02:22:36,139
Yes, it must be a great attraction.
2015
02:22:36,140 --> 02:22:38,302
No, I'll take this.
2016
02:22:43,260 --> 02:22:44,989
Good to see you.
2017
02:22:45,900 --> 02:22:48,062
What, don't we get any wine?
We're guests.
2018
02:22:52,740 --> 02:22:55,419
It is very fun. I'm in London now.
2019
02:22:55,420 --> 02:22:57,548
John is around for a couple of weeks.
2020
02:22:57,620 --> 02:22:59,145
Well, I'm here for...
2021
02:22:59,260 --> 02:23:02,389
Lovely. Very good.
I can't believe we've never been here before.
2022
02:23:02,460 --> 02:23:04,059
Or I haven't.
2023
02:23:04,060 --> 02:23:06,108
I think my friend...
2024
02:23:08,740 --> 02:23:10,819
Ebony frames are,
of course, interesting.
2025
02:23:10,820 --> 02:23:14,461
World first. I want to explain where
I think the ripple moulding comes from.
2026
02:23:14,540 --> 02:23:17,942
These mouldings are called ripple
mouldings. This wave... wave pattern.
2027
02:23:18,020 --> 02:23:23,020
They're very interesting. They're really
the only ornament, frame ornament
2028
02:23:23,980 --> 02:23:27,499
that does not ultimately
come from antiquity.
2029
02:23:27,500 --> 02:23:30,788
It is sort of a non-classical ornament.
2030
02:23:30,860 --> 02:23:35,860
And I think it came about
because of the way the ebony is...
2031
02:23:35,900 --> 02:23:39,819
is... is... worked with.
2032
02:23:39,820 --> 02:23:42,739
Because, when you work with ebony,
2033
02:23:42,740 --> 02:23:47,740
it... it is not carved or planed
like other woods.
2034
02:23:48,140 --> 02:23:52,059
It is scraped with a scraper
at right angles to the wood.
2035
02:23:52,060 --> 02:23:54,028
Like...
2036
02:23:54,100 --> 02:23:57,229
Something like this, a metal...
a metal scraper that is...
2037
02:23:58,420 --> 02:24:02,027
scraped across the piece of wood
and lowered incrementally.
2038
02:24:02,100 --> 02:24:04,785
But the process of scraping is very...
2039
02:24:06,780 --> 02:24:09,101
the force is quite... is quite...
2040
02:24:11,900 --> 02:24:15,143
It is... the wood is very hard, and it's...
2041
02:24:15,260 --> 02:24:17,739
it is... it's quite difficult.
2042
02:24:17,740 --> 02:24:19,822
You only scrape a tiny bit off each time.
2043
02:24:20,740 --> 02:24:23,141
And in the process, there...
2044
02:24:23,260 --> 02:24:27,231
The whole apparatus
that you use tends to vibrate
2045
02:24:27,300 --> 02:24:31,339
and what you have is...
is a ripple effect on the straight moulding.
2046
02:24:31,340 --> 02:24:33,308
This was just done straight, and...
2047
02:24:33,380 --> 02:24:35,499
I'm not sure whether
you can see it in the light,
2048
02:24:35,500 --> 02:24:37,339
but you can certainly feel it.
2049
02:24:37,340 --> 02:24:41,739
There is a... a ripple that is voluntary.
2050
02:24:41,740 --> 02:24:44,739
That's a ripple that just happens
when you try to scrape it straight,
2051
02:24:44,740 --> 02:24:47,739
and then you have to sand it out
and straighten it out.
2052
02:24:47,740 --> 02:24:51,819
But I think that this type of ripple,
out of this accidental ripple...
2053
02:24:51,820 --> 02:24:55,142
And then this is done...
run over a track that goes up and down.
2054
02:24:55,260 --> 02:24:58,707
The knife goes up and down or the wood
goes up and down as it's scraped along.
2055
02:24:58,780 --> 02:25:03,659
And normally, I'm against illuminating
the way frames are made,
2056
02:25:03,660 --> 02:25:06,339
because it somehow
doesn't seem important.
2057
02:25:06,340 --> 02:25:08,388
If... if you go to a Rembrandt exhibition,
2058
02:25:08,460 --> 02:25:11,059
nobody's going to tell you
how the canvas is prepared
2059
02:25:11,060 --> 02:25:13,950
and the paints are... are made,
2060
02:25:14,020 --> 02:25:16,339
and all this technical bits.
2061
02:25:16,340 --> 02:25:18,866
But I find it interesting
with the ebony frame,
2062
02:25:18,940 --> 02:25:21,739
that I think it is... it is an accidental...
2063
02:25:21,740 --> 02:25:25,904
and a... and a discovery
from the making of the frame.
2064
02:25:29,100 --> 02:25:31,182
Yes, lovely.
2065
02:25:32,260 --> 02:25:33,830
Oh, it's 8:45 already.
2066
02:25:33,900 --> 02:25:37,746
There's plenty of room for you all now.
And it's time for me to begin.
2067
02:25:37,820 --> 02:25:42,109
I'm talking about the strangely named
Triumph of Pan.
2068
02:25:43,340 --> 02:25:48,301
Poussin has reconstructed these really
recondite elements of ancient art.
2069
02:25:48,420 --> 02:25:54,302
That... that is one explanation for his...
his way of painting.
2070
02:25:54,420 --> 02:25:58,499
He may have thought
that painting in antiquity
2071
02:25:58,500 --> 02:26:00,548
was closer to sculpture,
2072
02:26:00,620 --> 02:26:03,703
precisely because
so much more sculpture had survived,
2073
02:26:03,780 --> 02:26:09,469
and he... he could only reconstruct
ancient painting in that way.
2074
02:26:09,540 --> 02:26:11,659
But it's curious...
2075
02:26:11,660 --> 02:26:15,059
So many of the things that attract him
about the ancient world
2076
02:26:15,060 --> 02:26:18,899
which he puts into this
strange, strange painting
2077
02:26:18,900 --> 02:26:20,390
are actually unnaturalistic.
2078
02:26:20,460 --> 02:26:25,139
So, he knows, for example,
that ancient statues of Pan,
2079
02:26:25,140 --> 02:26:28,781
as indeed is the case of figures in worship,
2080
02:26:28,860 --> 02:26:32,739
their faces were actually coated
with special substances
2081
02:26:32,740 --> 02:26:36,108
to make them seem more animated,
or just as a type of offering.
2082
02:26:36,180 --> 02:26:39,219
So the red colour,
it's very, very extraordinary.
2083
02:26:39,220 --> 02:26:41,219
But what makes it extraordinary, of course,
2084
02:26:41,220 --> 02:26:45,544
is actually that the rest of the sculpture
appears to be made of polished brass.
2085
02:26:45,620 --> 02:26:48,624
It means that Poussin's actually thought,
"Maybe, in antiquity,
2086
02:26:48,700 --> 02:26:50,702
"they did not patinate their sculptures."
2087
02:26:50,780 --> 02:26:52,499
And he was very, very learned
2088
02:26:52,500 --> 02:26:57,028
and in touch with all the most erudite
students of antiquity in his day.
2089
02:26:57,100 --> 02:27:00,659
Some of these things that I've been
mentioning aren't actually mentioned, even,
2090
02:27:00,660 --> 02:27:03,106
by modem art historical commentators
on this painting,
2091
02:27:03,180 --> 02:27:05,579
but they would be of great interest to...
2092
02:27:05,580 --> 02:27:09,299
and these subjects are of great interest,
the colouring of fem and so on,
2093
02:27:09,300 --> 02:27:11,029
to archaeologists today.
2094
02:27:11,100 --> 02:27:14,979
But I don't think it's quite adequate
as an explanation of this picture,
2095
02:27:14,980 --> 02:27:19,542
that Poussin has just become
that much more obsessed by the antique.
2096
02:27:20,500 --> 02:27:23,390
I think the clue
to the stylistic character of this work
2097
02:27:23,460 --> 02:27:29,786
lies in the fact that Poussin must have
known that he was painting pictures
2098
02:27:29,860 --> 02:27:34,149
which would hang beside
old paintings by Mantegna.
2099
02:27:34,220 --> 02:27:37,622
Mantegna and Poussin
are the two European artists
2100
02:27:37,740 --> 02:27:41,579
who are most interested in trying
to put something sculptural into painting.
2101
02:27:41,580 --> 02:27:44,106
And this becomes particularly interesting
2102
02:27:44,180 --> 02:27:48,629
in the context of this so-called "paregone",
the contest between the arts.
2103
02:27:48,700 --> 02:27:53,419
Tedious to us to try and work out whether
painting or sculpture is the greatest art.
2104
02:27:53,420 --> 02:27:56,469
But within that,
the structure of that argument,
2105
02:27:56,540 --> 02:28:00,899
people fought very intelligently about what
could painting do that sculpture couldn't do.
2106
02:28:00,900 --> 02:28:04,621
And you could always say of sculpture
that movement is frozen,
2107
02:28:04,700 --> 02:28:06,543
that space can't really be represented.
2108
02:28:06,620 --> 02:28:10,899
How odd, to find a painter
who's actually deliberately imitating
2109
02:28:10,900 --> 02:28:13,710
those precise qualities in sculpture
in their painting.
2110
02:28:13,780 --> 02:28:16,419
It's a kind of reversal of what
everyone else was doing.
2111
02:28:16,420 --> 02:28:18,499
And I think it's a reversal which he's done
2112
02:28:18,500 --> 02:28:22,141
for people who think about art
in a very, very sophisticated way,
2113
02:28:22,260 --> 02:28:27,260
people who like turning on its head
the priorities and values of other people,
2114
02:28:28,500 --> 02:28:31,339
as well as the people
who are not only learned,
2115
02:28:31,340 --> 02:28:33,547
but like to exhibit their learning.
2116
02:28:33,620 --> 02:28:36,899
In short, this picture is very, very elitist.
2117
02:28:36,900 --> 02:28:40,819
Making it accessible is quite hard work.
It's worth doing, of course.
2118
02:28:40,820 --> 02:28:44,222
But it's really hard work,
cos it was painted, I think,
2119
02:28:44,300 --> 02:28:49,466
not just as a subject which was
for very, very learned people,
2120
02:28:49,540 --> 02:28:52,659
who liked to be more learned
than other people, and show it,
2121
02:28:52,660 --> 02:28:57,951
but also, its style is painted
for an extremely sophisticated
2122
02:28:58,020 --> 02:29:00,659
and very... probably very small public.
2123
02:29:00,660 --> 02:29:03,059
I'm really thrilled we have it
in the National Gallery.
2124
02:29:03,060 --> 02:29:05,659
I personally don't know
whether I like it or not.
2125
02:29:05,660 --> 02:29:10,139
But I certainly think it's one of the most
fascinating paintings in the National Gallery.
2126
02:29:10,140 --> 02:29:12,427
It's very, very extraordinary.
Thank you very much.
2127
02:29:16,740 --> 02:29:20,461
Part of the appeal
of Vermeers paintings,
2128
02:29:20,540 --> 02:29:24,101
and other paintings
like them in the 17th century,
2129
02:29:24,180 --> 02:29:27,899
is that they create an ideal world,
2130
02:29:27,900 --> 02:29:33,543
an ideal image that is seductive,
2131
02:29:33,620 --> 02:29:38,467
and absolutely pleasant to look at.
2132
02:29:38,540 --> 02:29:41,942
You're drawn into the beauty of it.
2133
02:29:42,020 --> 02:29:46,059
I think it's not just us in the 21st century
2134
02:29:46,060 --> 02:29:48,739
that the painting has that impact on.
2135
02:29:48,740 --> 02:29:52,739
I think it was exactly the same
in the 17th century.
2136
02:29:52,740 --> 02:29:58,031
Pan of that, of course,
is in the way in which Vermeer paints.
2137
02:29:58,100 --> 02:30:01,339
He has an absolutely unique style
2138
02:30:01,340 --> 02:30:06,340
that somehow finds a balance
between realism and abstraction.
2139
02:30:06,980 --> 02:30:10,029
From a distance, even a short distance,
2140
02:30:10,100 --> 02:30:12,546
you're struck by how realistic this is.
2141
02:30:12,620 --> 02:30:14,899
You think, "Oh, wow" you know,
2142
02:30:14,900 --> 02:30:17,739
"That woman, I wanna step closer
and get to know her."
2143
02:30:17,740 --> 02:30:22,739
But as you get closer,
just like Impressionist paintings,
2144
02:30:22,740 --> 02:30:26,870
that sense of realism
dissolves into abstraction,
2145
02:30:26,940 --> 02:30:30,023
and it remains forever elusive,
2146
02:30:30,100 --> 02:30:34,788
again, creating a barrier
between our world
2147
02:30:34,860 --> 02:30:38,579
and this ideal world
represented in the paintings.
2148
02:30:38,580 --> 02:30:42,579
I think that is intentional
on Vermeer's part,
2149
02:30:42,580 --> 02:30:46,710
to emphasize and to maintain
2150
02:30:46,780 --> 02:30:51,339
the perfection
of the world that he's created.
2151
02:30:51,340 --> 02:30:54,549
It's also,
as so many of Vermeer's paintings,
2152
02:30:54,620 --> 02:30:58,466
a very ambiguous painting.
2153
02:30:58,540 --> 02:31:00,781
Because of the woman's restraint,
2154
02:31:00,860 --> 02:31:06,344
because of the absolute regularity
and almost austerity of the composition,
2155
02:31:07,340 --> 02:31:10,708
it's hard to tell exactly
what the painting is about,
2156
02:31:10,780 --> 02:31:13,021
what might be going on in this painting.
2157
02:31:13,100 --> 02:31:16,104
Art historians can go on endlessly
2158
02:31:16,180 --> 02:31:19,899
about the symbolism
of the painting in the background,
2159
02:31:19,900 --> 02:31:23,666
and, you know, the angle of this
and the juxtaposition of that.
2160
02:31:24,540 --> 02:31:30,104
But how do we know that that's entirely
what Vermeer had in mind'?
2161
02:31:30,180 --> 02:31:33,339
And, of course, you know,
as any other an historian,
2162
02:31:33,340 --> 02:31:36,899
I've written, you know,
"This means this, this means that,"
2163
02:31:36,900 --> 02:31:41,819
but there's always an element of ambiguity,
a question there
2164
02:31:41,820 --> 02:31:49,147
that I firmly believe is absolutely intentional
on the part of the best artists,
2165
02:31:50,060 --> 02:31:54,499
because it's designed to keep you intrigued,
to keep you coming back,
2166
02:31:54,500 --> 02:31:57,139
to keep your attention on this painting,
2167
02:31:57,140 --> 02:32:01,304
and each time you come to the painting,
depending on your mood,
2168
02:32:01,380 --> 02:32:05,059
who else is in the room,
what you had for lunch,
2169
02:32:05,060 --> 02:32:07,339
it's going to look slightly different,
2170
02:32:07,340 --> 02:32:09,547
it's going to appeal to you,
2171
02:32:09,620 --> 02:32:13,227
you're going to engage with it
in an entirely different way.
2172
02:32:18,020 --> 02:32:21,706
It's a very, very interesting
relationship between his painting technique
2173
02:32:21,780 --> 02:32:25,339
and the things that we value and prize
about Caravaggio.
2174
02:32:25,340 --> 02:32:30,139
The immediacy of the effect of the models,
the dramatic lighting,
2175
02:32:30,140 --> 02:32:33,339
a lot of the things
he does in his working practice
2176
02:32:33,340 --> 02:32:34,865
as well as the application of paint,
2177
02:32:34,940 --> 02:32:38,706
are all kind of inextricably bound
with what we treasure in them.
2178
02:32:38,780 --> 02:32:42,227
So I'll start off with
Boy Bitten by a Lizard.
2179
02:32:42,300 --> 02:32:44,780
The main thing I'd like
to convey about this picture
2180
02:32:44,860 --> 02:32:49,860
is to get you to understand a little bit about
how he's using his priming, his ground,
2181
02:32:50,900 --> 02:32:54,700
that's the layer he puts on the canvas
before he starts painting the figure.
2182
02:32:54,780 --> 02:32:59,308
In this case, it's a kind of rich
kind of bricky red-brown colour.
2183
02:32:59,380 --> 02:33:01,779
This is something that he's exploiting, then,
2184
02:33:01,780 --> 02:33:04,019
in the subsequent build-up of the paint.
2185
02:33:04,020 --> 02:33:07,388
The brown colour is left exposed,
quite deliberately,
2186
02:33:07,460 --> 02:33:11,909
to help him evolve
the modeling of the flesh tones.
2187
02:33:11,980 --> 02:33:14,939
Bellori, an important critic writing
in the 1670s,
2188
02:33:14,940 --> 02:33:18,342
was already writing about this,
how he leaves the ground exposed
2189
02:33:18,420 --> 02:33:20,502
to give the middle colours
of the flesh painting.
2190
02:33:20,580 --> 02:33:24,187
And you can see that in the shadow
and sort of around the breast,
2191
02:33:24,300 --> 02:33:27,349
in the shadowed part of the cheek,
the shadowed part of the hands,
2192
02:33:27,420 --> 02:33:30,779
and quite a lot of the drapery painting
is essentially the ground colour.
2193
02:33:30,780 --> 02:33:32,779
And it's a very economical
way of proceeding,
2194
02:33:32,780 --> 02:33:35,539
because once you establish the figure,
you use the ground,
2195
02:33:35,540 --> 02:33:40,019
you can put a very thin, translucent
brown colour to push the shadows back,
2196
02:33:40,020 --> 02:33:42,182
and then,
when you build the lighter colours up,
2197
02:33:42,300 --> 02:33:45,907
when you're mixing the light coloured paint
and putting it on top of a darker ground,
2198
02:33:45,980 --> 02:33:48,062
it gets very opaque very quickly.
2199
02:33:48,140 --> 02:33:50,063
And so it's extremely economical.
2200
02:33:50,140 --> 02:33:52,711
I mean, the dark grounds are things
that were evolved
2201
02:33:52,780 --> 02:33:55,899
and used more and more frequently in Italy
throughout the 16th century,
2202
02:33:55,900 --> 02:33:58,659
particularly in north Italy,
where he was formed.
2203
02:33:58,660 --> 02:34:02,790
And I think, however, that he managed
to exploit this technique
2204
02:34:02,860 --> 02:34:05,704
and kind of make it his own
and bend it toward his purposes
2205
02:34:05,780 --> 02:34:08,101
in a very characteristic way.
2206
02:34:09,060 --> 02:34:12,979
We, with Renaissance paintings,
have the ability, generally,
2207
02:34:12,980 --> 02:34:17,739
to look with infrared reflectography
and see evidence of initial drawing.
2208
02:34:17,740 --> 02:34:21,222
And that's based on, say,
a carbon-containing charcoal or something,
2209
02:34:21,300 --> 02:34:23,499
drawn on top of a light ground,
2210
02:34:23,500 --> 02:34:26,819
and so you... the contrast is something
we can pick up with infrared.
2211
02:34:26,820 --> 02:34:29,790
Now, with these pictures, traditionally,
with the dark ground,
2212
02:34:29,860 --> 02:34:33,339
and whatever kind of paint
that might have been used to draw,
2213
02:34:33,340 --> 02:34:35,659
you really don't see anything
with that technique.
2214
02:34:35,660 --> 02:34:38,339
So it's always been a great mystery
about Caravaggio.
2215
02:34:38,340 --> 02:34:41,549
Did he draw'? And in what sense
did he do preparatory drawing?
2216
02:34:41,620 --> 02:34:44,021
Because we don't have, really,
drawings on paper.
2217
02:34:44,100 --> 02:34:48,947
He's playing a bit of a game with you about,
you know, what skill is and what craft is
2218
02:34:49,020 --> 02:34:51,864
and how speedy and confident he was.
2219
02:34:51,940 --> 02:34:55,739
There's a kind of... seemingly,
a taste or a desire to look,
2220
02:34:55,740 --> 02:34:59,419
to have that kind of sprezzatura,
the brio, the ability to do something,
2221
02:34:59,420 --> 02:35:01,419
to knock it off very confidently.
2222
02:35:01,420 --> 02:35:04,469
But, like many things in Caravaggio,
what may seem...
2223
02:35:04,540 --> 02:35:06,739
what is indeed revolutionary
2224
02:35:06,740 --> 02:35:12,144
is still grounded in a very careful
and considered use of his materials,
2225
02:35:12,260 --> 02:35:16,899
and somebody who always, whatever
the sordid details of his personal life,
2226
02:35:16,900 --> 02:35:21,499
somebody who always was in really
fantastic control of his materials
2227
02:35:21,500 --> 02:35:23,579
and understanding
of how the paint worked.
2228
02:35:23,580 --> 02:35:25,821
So I think that's the thing
I'd like to leave with you.
2229
02:35:34,460 --> 02:35:38,739
What's going on, here?
What's happened in my absence?
2230
02:35:38,740 --> 02:35:40,788
In your absence.
2231
02:35:40,860 --> 02:35:43,339
Well, we've done a bit of a rehang,
as you can tell.
2232
02:35:43,340 --> 02:35:45,899
Yeah, definitely.
It's changed a lot, actually.
2233
02:35:45,900 --> 02:35:50,303
I think there's only two or three pictures
that haven't actually moved.
2234
02:35:50,380 --> 02:35:51,819
Yeah, but I mean, the...
2235
02:35:51,820 --> 02:35:53,390
- Yeah.
- We basically had to do it
2236
02:35:53,460 --> 02:35:56,499
to find a spot
for The Virgin of the Rocks.
2237
02:35:56,500 --> 02:35:57,865
- Yeah.
- And here it is, now.
2238
02:35:57,940 --> 02:35:58,987
And what do you think?
2239
02:36:00,420 --> 02:36:03,026
I was thinking
that it looks strange, actually.
2240
02:36:03,100 --> 02:36:05,307
That's changed a lot from before.
2241
02:36:05,380 --> 02:36:10,339
First reaction is something that...
2242
02:36:10,340 --> 02:36:13,739
I think it's visual. No? Isn't it? It is, er...
2243
02:36:13,740 --> 02:36:16,391
- Well, it's interest...
- It's another...
2244
02:36:17,100 --> 02:36:19,779
another world of colour,
you know what I mean?
2245
02:36:19,780 --> 02:36:23,421
It's a completely different world.
We saw it downstairs in the exhibition,
2246
02:36:23,500 --> 02:36:27,539
how nicely it worked with the other,
later Milanese pictures,
2247
02:36:27,540 --> 02:36:30,191
and that the composition
may be Florentine,
2248
02:36:30,260 --> 02:36:33,019
but the whole painting is Milanese.
2249
02:36:33,020 --> 02:36:35,779
Ah... Ya,
there is a theoretical issue,
2250
02:36:35,780 --> 02:36:38,431
that, as you said, it's a Milanese painting,
2251
02:36:38,500 --> 02:36:43,459
but also visually, I think that is
something a little bit puzzling, isn't it?
2252
02:36:43,460 --> 02:36:47,749
You know, also, because, even
if the drawing probably is Florentine...
2253
02:36:47,820 --> 02:36:49,902
Well, the idea, the composition
is Florentine.
2254
02:36:49,980 --> 02:36:52,426
And, of course, you know...
and now you have...
2255
02:36:52,500 --> 02:36:55,504
It... it's a difficult picture
to find a place for, actually...
2256
02:36:55,580 --> 02:36:56,820
- Yeah.
- ...In the gallery,
2257
02:36:56,900 --> 02:36:58,902
- And there is an argument to be made...
- Yeah.
2258
02:36:58,980 --> 02:37:02,427
And I think, you know, in a way it works,
and you show him, you know,
2259
02:37:02,500 --> 02:37:06,107
together with Verrocchio, with his teacher,
and, you know, side by side...
2260
02:37:06,220 --> 02:37:07,904
But, yeah...
2261
02:37:07,980 --> 02:37:10,019
- Yeah.
- It doesn't sing as nicely.
2262
02:37:10,020 --> 02:37:11,431
- No.
- It did sing downstairs.
2263
02:37:11,500 --> 02:37:13,379
The only things...
2264
02:37:13,380 --> 02:37:17,829
Well, the constructive thing, how...
how Leonardo... evolution...
2265
02:37:17,900 --> 02:37:19,902
- Yeah, how...
- ...is completely different.
2266
02:37:19,980 --> 02:37:21,779
How it moves into a different direction.
2267
02:37:21,780 --> 02:37:25,102
If you put in relation
with his old Florentine friends...
2268
02:37:25,220 --> 02:37:27,666
- Yeah. Yeah.
- ...that is quite a struggle, but actually,
2269
02:37:27,740 --> 02:37:34,225
is a contrast, the way of seeing the hang,
the display of our own, that is...
2270
02:37:34,300 --> 02:37:37,059
I think it's quite strange.
2271
02:37:37,060 --> 02:37:40,223
But there's something quite nice
about this being situated in the comer,
2272
02:37:40,300 --> 02:37:42,109
because you enter the Sainsbury Wing,
2273
02:37:42,180 --> 02:37:44,419
and you kind of meander
throughout the rooms,
2274
02:37:44,420 --> 02:37:46,899
and you discover the Leonardo
in the comer,
2275
02:37:46,900 --> 02:37:50,739
almost as if you discovered
a little kind of grouping in the cave...
2276
02:37:50,740 --> 02:37:52,469
- Which I think is quite nice.
- Mm.
2277
02:37:52,540 --> 02:37:53,701
Yeah.
Mm-hm.
2278
02:37:57,140 --> 02:37:58,790
One receiving, over.
2279
02:38:04,300 --> 02:38:07,224
In 'Titian's letter, he says,
"I am painting...
2280
02:38:08,540 --> 02:38:11,225
"Diana Surprised by Actaeon,
2281
02:38:11,300 --> 02:38:14,110
"and... and Actaeon..."
2282
02:38:14,180 --> 02:38:17,866
The word he um is "lacerated",
by his own hounds.
2283
02:38:17,940 --> 02:38:21,339
So originally, these two pictures
would have been the pair
2284
02:38:21,340 --> 02:38:22,944
that he wanted to send to King Philip.
2285
02:38:23,020 --> 02:38:26,899
This painting remains in Titian's studio,
it was never finished by Tahitian,
2286
02:38:26,900 --> 02:38:29,380
and is bought from his studio
after his death.
2287
02:38:29,460 --> 02:38:32,464
So he decides not to do this,
and instead, he produces...
2288
02:38:32,540 --> 02:38:34,739
- This one.
- Diana and Callisto as the pair.
2289
02:38:34,740 --> 02:38:36,819
- So he has two...
- Completely different.
2290
02:38:36,820 --> 02:38:41,303
Yes, different, but they both show Diana
as taking vengeance on... on a mortal,
2291
02:38:41,380 --> 02:38:42,950
on a...
2292
02:38:43,860 --> 02:38:46,101
And the mom... and also, the moment of...
2293
02:38:46,180 --> 02:38:49,139
Interestingly,
they're kind of opposite pictures,
2294
02:38:49,140 --> 02:38:54,140
because here, the pregnant nymph
Callisto is being exposed,
2295
02:38:55,420 --> 02:38:57,739
and Diana realizes she's pregnant.
2296
02:38:57,740 --> 02:39:01,739
Here, it's Diana who's being exposed
and who is... by Actaeon.
2297
02:39:01,740 --> 02:39:04,949
Here, there is a female victim of Diana,
and here, a male victim.
2298
02:39:05,020 --> 02:39:08,308
Erm...
They probably hung opposite each other,
2299
02:39:08,380 --> 02:39:11,111
so we've tried to suggest that
by putting them a bit differently.
2300
02:39:11,180 --> 02:39:13,419
But we also want people
to see this with that.
2301
02:39:13,420 --> 02:39:16,947
- This picture we acquired 25 years ago.
- From?
2302
02:39:17,020 --> 02:39:20,103
From Lord Harewood.
It was in England?
2303
02:39:20,180 --> 02:39:23,980
In England. Earl Harewood
had the painting from Lord Darnley,
2304
02:39:24,940 --> 02:39:31,550
who... whose great-great-great-grandfather
purchased it at the Orleans sale.
2305
02:39:31,620 --> 02:39:32,781
Mm.
2306
02:39:32,860 --> 02:39:34,942
How it got to the Orleans collection,
2307
02:39:35,020 --> 02:39:37,227
it got to the Orleans collection because...
2308
02:39:38,100 --> 02:39:41,024
it was one of the pictures that...
2309
02:39:43,660 --> 02:39:44,819
from...
2310
02:39:44,820 --> 02:39:49,820
The Queen of Sweden acquired it
on her way to Rome...
2311
02:39:50,140 --> 02:39:51,630
I think. Yes.
2312
02:39:51,700 --> 02:39:54,544
That's... that's the best explanation.
2313
02:39:54,620 --> 02:39:57,739
And then, these pictures
were actually presented from...
2314
02:39:57,740 --> 02:40:02,621
by the Spanish crown to,
I think, a French ambassador,
2315
02:40:02,700 --> 02:40:08,150
who... who was acquiring them
for the Regent of France,
2316
02:40:08,260 --> 02:40:10,739
who was, of course,
a very, very great art collector.
2317
02:40:10,740 --> 02:40:12,788
Painted in the 1550s,
2318
02:40:12,860 --> 02:40:15,339
sent to Spain, stay in Spain until...
2319
02:40:15,340 --> 02:40:18,708
A couple of hundred years.
And then go to France,
2320
02:40:18,740 --> 02:40:21,579
into a semi-royal collection
of the Duc d'Orleans.
2321
02:40:21,580 --> 02:40:25,380
And then to England.
I'm very fond of the Duc d �Orleans, and...
2322
02:40:25,460 --> 02:40:27,659
- Well, he was a good guy.
- Yeah.
2323
02:40:27,660 --> 02:40:30,391
He was also, you know, a...
he was an amateur cook.
2324
02:40:30,460 --> 02:40:31,791
- Yeah?
- You know, he loved...
2325
02:40:31,860 --> 02:40:36,866
he was one of the first
very, very princely or noble people
2326
02:40:36,940 --> 02:40:39,059
who is known to have
liked to do his own cooking
2327
02:40:39,060 --> 02:40:41,540
- and experiment with cooking.
- I didn't know that.
2328
02:40:41,620 --> 02:40:45,139
What he did after dinner
is a different matter.
2329
02:40:45,140 --> 02:40:46,499
2330
02:40:46,500 --> 02:40:50,059
- Yes, a common habit.
- But I think it's nice he was a cook.
2331
02:40:50,060 --> 02:40:53,951
Yeah. Anyway. But he loved... Also, we know
he liked arranging his own paintings.
2332
02:40:54,020 --> 02:40:56,307
- OK.
- But what amazes me about him
2333
02:40:56,380 --> 02:40:59,899
is that when he got the great collection
of the Queen of Sweden, from Rome,
2334
02:40:59,900 --> 02:41:03,143
he took ten or 15 years to negotiate.
2335
02:41:03,260 --> 02:41:05,706
He then hung...
2336
02:41:05,780 --> 02:41:07,942
He... he wanted to see the paintings...
2337
02:41:08,900 --> 02:41:12,268
Obviously, he would have new,
French frames made for them.
2338
02:41:13,500 --> 02:41:15,309
Of course, cos everyone would do that.
2339
02:41:15,380 --> 02:41:17,339
But before he had the frames made,
2340
02:41:17,340 --> 02:41:21,868
he wanted to see them in the frames
which that...
2341
02:41:21,940 --> 02:41:27,231
"cette grande Princesse",
the Queen of Sweden, had seen them in.
2342
02:41:27,300 --> 02:41:28,904
And I think that's fantastic.
2343
02:42:51,900 --> 02:42:54,062
Right, OK.
2344
02:42:55,740 --> 02:42:59,301
I'm going to read a poem
called Callisto's Song.
2345
02:42:59,380 --> 02:43:03,979
Callisto was the nymph
who was then turned into a bear,
2346
02:43:03,980 --> 02:43:08,702
who ended her life flung up
into the heavens as a constellation.
2347
02:43:08,780 --> 02:43:10,979
She became the Great Bear.
2348
02:43:10,980 --> 02:43:15,030
So, in order to write her poem in her voice,
2349
02:43:15,100 --> 02:43:19,981
I had to imagine
how a constellation might sound.
2350
02:43:21,260 --> 02:43:26,059
So on the page, visually,
I've translated her noise,
2351
02:43:26,060 --> 02:43:28,222
her song as a star,
2352
02:43:28,300 --> 02:43:32,942
into every word being
divided by an asterisk.
2353
02:43:33,020 --> 02:43:35,059
So it looks like a constellation.
2354
02:43:35,060 --> 02:43:38,659
In my head,
I feel if I could read it as I hear her,
2355
02:43:38,660 --> 02:43:41,630
there would be kind of white noise,
2356
02:43:41,700 --> 02:43:46,339
star... crunching, crackling noises
between every word.
2357
02:43:46,340 --> 02:43:51,267
But I can't really do that, so probably
the most you'll hear is a little syncopation.
2358
02:43:53,580 --> 02:43:55,548
Callisto's Song.
2359
02:43:56,740 --> 02:44:00,870
* stars * stars * stars * stars *
2360
02:44:00,940 --> 02:44:03,659
*and*I*am*made*of*them*now*
2361
02:44:03,660 --> 02:44:06,419
* looking * down * on * myself * then *
2362
02:44:06,420 --> 02:44:10,339
* a * colorito * woman * yes *
* that * was * me *
2363
02:44:10,340 --> 02:44:12,024
* in * my * red * sandals *
2364
02:44:12,100 --> 02:44:16,739
* the * great * outdoors * curtained *
* golden * embroidered *
2365
02:44:16,740 --> 02:44:19,550
* and * heatshimmer *
* above * blue * mountains *
2366
02:44:19,620 --> 02:44:23,139
* nothing * vertical *
* not * even * the * plinth *
2367
02:44:23,140 --> 02:44:27,579
* and * no * speech * no * names * then *
* just * a * cry *
2368
02:44:27,580 --> 02:44:30,139
* as * the * busy * body * nymphs *
* stripped * me *
2369
02:44:30,140 --> 02:44:33,739
* because * we * all * had *
* rounded * bellies * then *
2370
02:44:33,740 --> 02:44:39,304
* but * nine * months * gone * so *
* my * navel * curved * like * a * gash *
2371
02:44:39,380 --> 02:44:43,659
* and * o * so * noticeable * among *
* all * the * diagonals *
2372
02:44:43,660 --> 02:44:46,391
* and * everyone *
* looking * a 'different' way *
2373
02:44:46,460 --> 02:44:49,899
* looking * a * lot *
* especially * the * goddess *
2374
02:44:49,900 --> 02:44:54,110
* her * arrow-arm * pointing *
* bow-mouth * strung *
2375
02:44:54,180 --> 02:44:59,059
* and * dogs * crouched * because *
* they * sensed * consequences *
2376
02:44:59,060 --> 02:45:04,060
* and * gods * arriving * and * doing *
* what * gods * do * upstairs *
2377
02:45:04,580 --> 02:45:06,947
* and * the * artist's * finger * loaded *
2378
02:45:07,020 --> 02:45:11,708
* and * the * paint * alive *
* alive * with * stars *
2379
02:45:11,780 --> 02:45:16,149
* stars * stars * stars * stars *
2380
02:45:17,060 --> 02:45:22,544
So can we start off by talking about the...
the painting?
2381
02:45:22,620 --> 02:45:25,624
Diana's such a powerful... figure.
2382
02:45:25,700 --> 02:45:30,700
Oh, she's female...
but full of fire and strength.
2383
02:45:32,740 --> 02:45:35,139
She's very intriguing.
2384
02:45:35,140 --> 02:45:37,461
Her reaction to Callisto is fascinating,
2385
02:45:37,540 --> 02:45:41,059
because... because Diana is, of course,
the goddess of chastity.
2386
02:45:41,060 --> 02:45:44,659
She's actually faced with another female
2387
02:45:44,660 --> 02:45:47,819
at the kind of maximum
moment of fecundity.
2388
02:45:47,820 --> 02:45:52,542
So there's a tension
and a kind of fury in Diana
2389
02:45:52,620 --> 02:45:56,499
that you feel goes beyond
anything that Callisto's done.
2390
02:45:56,500 --> 02:46:00,221
Because, after all, in... in a sense,
Callisto's been raped.
2391
02:46:00,300 --> 02:46:04,146
And now, in this revelation,
she's raped again,
2392
02:46:04,260 --> 02:46:06,659
by the pointing finger.
2393
02:46:06,660 --> 02:46:09,139
So... it's...
2394
02:46:09,140 --> 02:46:14,140
I think it's the dynamic of these different
sides of femaleness, of womanhood,
2395
02:46:14,500 --> 02:46:17,739
that come through in the story
as Titian tells it.
2396
02:46:17,740 --> 02:46:23,304
If you like, every poem is a kind of...
crude translation of something else.
2397
02:46:23,380 --> 02:46:28,380
Our poems... our poems never,
never reach what we want them to.
2398
02:46:28,740 --> 02:46:33,507
You know, we're always, in a way,
hampered by language.
2399
02:46:34,580 --> 02:46:36,499
And that's what's wonderful.
2400
02:46:36,500 --> 02:46:39,139
Yeats talks about
the fascination of what's difficult.
2401
02:46:39,140 --> 02:46:41,579
And the fact that language isn't perfect,
2402
02:46:41,580 --> 02:46:45,499
the fact that when I say the word "hand",
it is not my hand,
2403
02:46:45,500 --> 02:46:47,819
is really beautiful and poignant to me,
2404
02:46:47,820 --> 02:46:52,820
so in a... in a way, all of my poems
are efforts to translate something else.
2405
02:46:52,980 --> 02:46:54,979
And they never quite do.
2406
02:46:54,980 --> 02:46:58,143
But... but the gap is...
the meaning is all in the gaps.
2407
02:46:58,260 --> 02:47:01,150
And I... I felt that with Callisto's Song,
2408
02:47:01,260 --> 02:47:05,139
that I'd set myself, you know,
not just a gap,
2409
02:47:05,140 --> 02:47:07,620
but, you know, several light years
to straddle
2410
02:47:07,700 --> 02:47:11,899
between what she might sing
and how I might transcribe it.
2411
02:47:11,900 --> 02:47:14,506
2412
02:48:13,380 --> 02:48:16,350
2413
02:52:01,780 --> 02:52:05,785
subtitles by Yasmeen Khan
220530
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