Original subtitles

ladies and gentlemen

welcome to another episode of Money Talks

an exclusive conversation

with some of the most brilliant minds in business

entrepreneurship in finance

once again we're here in beautiful Kuala Lumpur

Malaysia and I'm joined by a dynamic duo

two guys that I've known for a couple years now

and I've had the ability to reconnect with them

and I wanted to have the opportunity for you guys

to sit under their teaching

and really be able to understand

the intricacies of building a 50 million dollar

plus e commerce empire

now these two gentlemen are the founders of upscale 9

an e commerce organization that manages multiple brands

and has become quite successful

over the last couple years

one of the founders who lives here in Malaysia

by the name of Daniel and the other one is Hanzi

he currently lives in Los Angeles

California but together

they've been able to build a phenomenal business

and I wanted to sit down because e commerce

as you guys know

is a hot topic and I wanted to bring the pioneers

the forefront leaders of this industry

right here today to money talks to have a conversation

so boys welcome

good to have you guys here

thank you I know it's the first time we're doing this

I know it's the first time you guys are on camera

podcasting cause you guys are just low key ballers

but I appreciate you guys

taking the time to sit down and sauce these

guys up

but before we kind of get into the intricacies of e

commerce I wanna start with you Daniel

give a give the audience a little bit of a background

cause here's the thing

Malaysia e commerce entering the space right

is not super easy yeah

so talk to me about

talk to me about how you got started

with entrepreneurship how did that journey kind of uh

begin yeah

it's kind of like a long time

so it's kind of like flashback

cause the UPS and downs are crazy

like set five years ago

we don't even have like e commerce

e commerce is nothing here

and like for me wanting to get into e commerce

I didn't actually start with e commerce

I started with a social media management

I built um

Instagram pages back then

it was so easy to get into export page

you kinda like what year was that

uh 2000

16 2,015

so like OG OG yeah

OG OG because like that's where uh

the explore patient you can like exploit it

um using um um

I I didn't build like a personal branding

I build like a

a niche pages like a memes or sports beauty

so that's where I got into um um

finding like like viral content and then reposting them

so that's like the simple truth was

was that when like hashtags were going off

was that yeah yeah

those kind of stuff yeah

and they're like liking big accounts liking each other

yeah yeah

so that's where you get to like blew up so easily

so I got like

I got to building like a million followers in just like

a week it was so easy

and then I was just flipping accounts

and until like Instagram kind of like catch up

they start like uh

banning all this accounts

so that's where you know

like it was kind of hard

so we have to make it we were using bots back then

yeah to like all the pages

and then when when um

everything went down I started like um

um figuring things like how can I monetize it

because I keep flipping so I don't know how to monetize

then they are like since I'm

I'm having like multiple followers in those industry

they are brands that reach out like hey um

back then it was like shout out

so can you give us a shout out

we'll send you products so I

I feel like let's just do it

I got like $10 per shout out

so that it was pretty good

like I was only like 18 19 back then

so that even in Malaysia that that's really good

so I accepted those offer

and then they keep coming back

so for me like it must be working for them

something must be working for them

yeah something was working

it was a simple shout out

so and and and like

like each post we're getting like thousands of likes

it was so easy because I know how to exploit it

and like why not

I try it then I tried

my only failed miserably because one thing is like

the Shopify wasn't even a thing back then

Paypal wasn't even a thing in Malaysia

so I only had like a like a cash on delivery

which I couldn't do because it's overseas

my audience are like 90% overseas

so I had to figure out

how can I actually get into this space

because I know they're making banks

they keep coming back so um

I tried and tried um

I did um

I hop into because back then also

there weren't a lot of courses on YouTube

you can you couldn't like

even if you type Facebook at tutorial on YouTube

it wasn't a thing bro

it wasn't a thing like these days it was so easy

you can just type in getting anything out front

so this is like everyone had easy back then

it was so hard

so you have like to figure it out as you go

and it's all about your experience so um

I I

I tried like it almost

it took me like a year to break even

I was a student back then

so it was

it was like juggling between between two things and

and um yeah

a year to break even and I almost had nothing and um

I sold my last accounts because it wasn't working

I was thinking like jumping into another thing

finding other cash flow I was flipping burgers

all the stuff I've done it

tell me anything like I've so pajamas on the street

I've so like even like using Instagram

hashtag to just like selling people

who wants to buy it I've tried it but no

Ting Tings wasn't working really well until like

I discovered um

there was a Facebook groups yeah

so so I think like back then

Facebook groups were starting to like

you know

people are going there and talk sharing the experience

and I Learned about uh properly

I Learned properly about income

like discovering a thing about income in like a forum

so that's where I I started like

like exploring more building websites using Shopify

everything like up to this day

I even custom code my own website yeah

so no one can like

like lie to me like if this cost this much

this cost this hours I know everything yeah

so we we like

so that's the thing like back then

everything like not like

there weren't many people selling themes

many people selling apps

so you had to like figure out on your own

so that's why yeah

issues you have to build as much as people say oh

you can't came in the early days yeah

there was like no assistance

exactly had to figure out your own lane

you had to pack your way through the system yeah

people keep saying it's

it's definitely definitely was easy

but you know like

it was hard

because there weren't a lot of accessibility back then

yeah so um

I figured it out and then another year

another six months um

start like everything kind of took off

um yeah life's life's will definitely change um

but then I struck with another issue which was um um

payment process events

so funny thing is how were you processing before

was it Paypal or what were you

it was only Paypal yeah so then I got striped

which which I actually flew to Singapore

to incorporate in company

but initially on the first place

they rejected me because I was in a citizen

they wanted a local there

but I didn't know anyone

I didn't have any families or friends there

so it was hard and then like I

I next year I went on again and like kind of like

like back then can I open a company

I really need a payment processor

so then they approved so it was a good thing

so I I like

I keep pushing the numbers

and then I was doing like about 10 k days back then

it was huge like that

I feel like the wheel is in my hand like it was crazy

and then payment processes struck

band struck and everything like crushed

like everything crashed and mind you

like there were about 200 k dollars on hold

and I have about

roughly 5 to 6 thousand soldiers spending yeah

so what I did was it was so stupid

so I told the suppliers um

the money hasn't come in yet

can you fulfill the orders

so that was a stupid move

and then like he actually okay

let me just fulfill the orders

all Lord is fulfilled now I'm

I'm in debt with him so I own him like

like $100,000 and like one month later

he keeps like asking like

where's the money like you can do this

you're running a business

so I told him like to just wait

something is happening and

and um

uh yeah

like later um

uh that month uh

he he actually he

he wants to send someone here

like a lawyer here to like talk to me what like

like going to sue me over what's happening

so I told him like like there's some issue

and then what I did was like back then again

you had to figure your thing out

um you create some sort of a loop with a strap account

for example so what I did was

I keep incorporating new companies for

new strap accounts

and then I Learned that if you skill really high over

like the week

usually on the 50 you got banned

so what I did was like

I was surfing through the week and the day number five

meaning day number five six

seven you don't get that

money but you get the money from day one to day five

so I keep like repeating the process over like

across few months and then what it called

I managed to pay him back and up

what happened to the 200 grand that was on hold

no I didn't get it what yeah

it was so bad yeah I didn't get it

because they accused me of money laundering

because Malaysia was yeah

cause there's no payment processing exactly in them

it's a fuck ton of money yeah

you know you know what year um

a payment processor are like

consider a thing in Malaysia

it was 2019 yeah

it wasn't like did I see somebody in their 20s

yeah hundreds of thousands of

what the heck is this man doing yeah

I went to the like like the um like like like um um

I met a lot of um um

like authorities asking me like like um

why are you doing this do you have the papers

and and why are you like

transecting a lot of money from the UK

for example but like back then

like scaling

if it works in the US is gonna confirm work in the UK

it was so easy but yeah I I didn't get the money back

so I managed to pay this player and up until today

we both still use it so we became best friends

so it was good then like

I figure out like

until when I'm gonna have like this kind of issue

so I start looking for someone

there were a lot of people approaching me for

you know like partners

partnerships opportunities

and then I told them like we

we can task first and see if we can vibe and then like

like I think like

um uh

I think after I Han

I we

I also talk to Han and then after a few months

I decided let's try to work

and then we process like more than a million

I didn't even had a call with him

video call didn't even tax him

it was all true a telegram

yeah we talk on Telegram

then I was crazy yeah

I was like damn

this dude is holding a lot of cash right now

I better like do some background checks like

and he was doing affiliate

I think back then yeah

and then turns out like Han used to be

a supplier

that I purchased my social media account with

so it was like so he was selling you social media pages

yeah so

so it was it was

he was also like did some flipping on social media

so we both were hustling yeah

and then and then like that the dress is pretty much

yeah history

lovely Hanzi yeah

good to see you bro good to see you bro

uh we met in 2,020

uh huh uh

I flipped to New York you uh

took me out smoke some shisha

and I knew that you were still in the e commerce game

I knew at the moment that you work with Daniel

I didn't know that you guys were still collaborating

together

tell me about a little bit about your journey bro

cause I know you're you're one of the low key

low key guys but you guys been crushing yeah

so I started you know what affiliate marketing is yes

I started I was in I was a big affiliate like 2016

2017 for you I was promoting like neutral okay

I was selling like you know

information products like vision impairment like

you know Facebook ads Facebook

but I was a big native guy like Rev content

you know content ad

I forgot it's been a long time

so and then I started dropshipping around 2017

2018 and then I came across

the first product that was selling was

I remember some you know

you know Vampire Diaries yeah

I was selling the one of the products there

and then I got shut down and I was

you got money to copyright copyright yeah

I was like five to 5 to 10 kbs there

and then luckily I think my third

fourth product I tested was a hair serum

so that took off then again

I had issues at same as then

you know that time I was doing like 20 k a day

and then I had issues with Stripe Paypal yeah

but issues yeah

so back in the day I think

Paypal and stripe

didn't know what to do with all these

cause e commerce was still new yeah

processing was kind of crazy

like if you were doing these numbers

they didn't know like how to

you know they should let them use money for them too

you know transaction fees and everything

they didn't know you know

it's high risk went to shut them down

stuff like that but eventually I got shut down

like three to four months in

and then I think two to three months after

I was also on the same page as then

I was on the Facebook groups looking for partners

you know to create this

you know to see what we could work on

and then

yeah partner with then

and then we started our brand 4 Chics back in 2018

and then the first month we did

was it 300 300 k yeah

300 300 k

and then just exponentially yeah

how much how much is that brand done up to date so far

30 million 30 30 million yeah

crazy yeah

and that's what three years

three years four

five or four five years

so from zero to hero a brand off scratch

two dudes meet middle of the internet right

that's crazy yeah

so 30 mill in this is in the beauty niche right

what kind of got you guys

was it like like a lucky strike and you're like

hey this just happened to work

then you went to like branded products

and it was initially like a white label

or was it like straight dropship

at the beginning yes

we started testing this we tested a bunch of products

and then we tested this product in July

around July I think of 2018

dropship dropshipping from straight from

you know

Aliexpress and all that dropified and then over the

yeah over the law

but it was the worst

you can't even complain

there's no there's not many options

yeah

and then we're doing all these numbers and I was like

yo damn

like let's just create a brand yeah

where we can actually sell it

and try to exit in a few years

and then we ordered you know

some samples from Alibaba and then dance designer guy

so he you know design the bottles and everything

we got a bunch of samples

like this was like near end of 2018

yeah I don't remember to exactly

and then give a bunch of trial and error

the brand that really took off 2019 till you know Covid

Covid was really good for us

everyone's home

they want to try a bunch of products

and what was your guys main form of marketing this

was it Facebook ads

were you guys running on Instagram influencers

what was kind of like the main approach for her

we did everything but I would see 90% Facebook yeah

I was running all the ads

Dan was doing all the creatives

the web dev work so it was like perfect synergy

you know and I had all the payment processes in lock

cause I was in the US

had a good relationship with Paypal since

you know my affiliate days and all that

so it's perfect it was a really good

let me ask you let me ask you this

now people are jumping into ecom right

people that are brand new

obviously not OGS kind of like when we were starting

is it still a good viable option to make money

is Facebook ads still a good

viable option for advertising

what are you guys thoughts

I think like um

if you were to start like with nothing

um you could

you don't have actually because Facebook requires money

you request money some money

so I would just start with organic first

like see if it gets traction

so like like

um we also like whenever we start something in you

TikTok will be a good opportunity as well

because the videos are easy to blow up there

so you have like you have to like these did there

there are a lot of formats like the best hooks

the best you know

all the things you can just like take the product

record it posting on TikTok

if it gets it doesn't have to get any purchase

you only need tractions

like see like what kind of hood works best look

so if it gets traction meaning like they are eyeballs

so you're kind of like optimizing the ad prior to yeah

exactly yeah

so you don't have to like spend a lot on the like

studio shoot because like order a lot of samples

those are very costly

so this is everything is expensive

so you

you might as well just opt into like organic first

and then get into Facebook

like for us Facebook is still king

but like for someone that's starting out is

there are not just gonna be Facebook

adspen cost they're gonna be like apps themes

shopify stripe percentage they're taking a lot of fees

so those are like logistics is not a headache

so I would just start with organic first

get traction because we try it like with a product

it's getting like 5 million views easily yeah

and and we didn't even have the set website set up yet

we just wanted to test

so now that it's kind of like a proof

so you're literally

you're not even setting up the store

nothing proof of concept creative

create an account wow

post the videos it gets a lot of views

people are asking like even if people are asking

that's a good sign

that people really want to buy the product yes yeah

so and

and these days the way that we start

usually it's create for

so we like when we have the capital

we usually start by investing some capital

into the brand with making

it more branded

making it have like some specific audience

and then we can you know

start pushing yeah

so instead of like back then

where it was just drop shipping and testing things out

these days it's kind of hard yeah

what I tell always people who want to start e commerce

they when they asked me I said learn how to sell first

yeah instead of creating a store and all that

it's you gotta

I would always tell him to start with affiliate

marketing that's like the core

you know so

that's what really made me save a lot of money

on Facebook ads you know

instead of doing making all these websites

video editing all those is very important

but learning how to you know copyright

yeah copyright

it's the skills bro yeah

it's skills yeah

what's good what skills would you say

affiliate marketing kind of like cemented for you

copywriting and learning how to sell

you know psychology

bio psychology you know

the hooks and goals how we come up with those

I think that those are bread and butter

you know really sell product

like let's say for example

we have 10 people promoting the same product

like we can guarantee me and then right crush

cause there's so many ways you can sell a product

you know

so for this hair removal thing that we're selling right

you can promote it to so many demographics

you can sell to old people

you can sell to young people

pregnant people pregnant people

and it's the approach that's the same product

but it's the approach of the product

that makes a difference

so when people see the product is dying

the product is never dead

it's the same thing like

like you only like innovate the product

the product has been like for a long time

so either like you innovate the product

if you can't innovate to the people you market it to

so you kind of like have to um

change the angles change to like the the

the make it very specific

so you back then if we're selling like hair removal

it can just say I say like hit hair removal

try this now these days

gotta be specific struggling with um

um um

you know like specific pain

um like for um

like for skin skincare you struggling with acne

there are a lot of acne types

so you gotta be very specific to that specific audience

so that's one of the way it's like red

it's like it's like

it's like identifying the

the the character that you're trying to sell to

knowing their profile and identifying their need

before I let you continue on

you mentioning Reddit maybe you guys considered as

what I'm trying to convey is most people

they just grab a product cause I don't I

I don't think that there's

there's this thing as a saturated product genuinely

I don't think that exist all there is

is saturated forms of presenting product

or maybe you saturate that specific avenue

for that specific period of time

or maybe the product isn't relevant

something about along those lines

what are your guys's thoughts with regards to like

these marketing angles that you were talking about

because most people will grab a product

that clearly is working let's say on TikTok

they test it

but then how many angles are you supposed to try

like most people are like generic

it doesn't work okay

the problem is the product

nobody's ever like maybe I'm the problem

you know I mean

maybe I'm the person that's not marketing well

that has like shitty copywriting yeah

what do you think so we always look for problems

you know yeah

let's say okay

so this hair remover product

the first angle we went with was

you know people are struggling with razors

you know ingrown hairs

razor cuts stuff like that

and then we we did for this brand

we did around 20 mill already

right for one year so in the first 10 mill

it kind of got saturated

and we started looking for other angles

summer is coming up bikini woman wanna go out

you know they wanna

so that's the angle we went with

and the product took off again

so this continuous ways

we always like always testing for new angles

you know the website copywriting

we change it up you know

time to time yeah

also yeah

um do you guys play with the branding at all

or is it usually like the same brand

or you guys playing white label

how married are you guys like the branding per se of

of the product do you guys altering that as well

to kind of give it like a new

a new feel yeah

that that's actually for for us

it's kind of important start

so we don't really go really hard in like um um

like making like

making sure the audience is only like

the top 1% can buy it for example

so what when I do is like make a brand

but make it like still appeal to the mass audience ever

so yeah make it ever again so for colors for example

we don't really choose one segmented audience for that

who likes that specific color

we go for the general colors like

you know like for beauty

it's gonna be pink for like wellness

either blue or nude color

so we keep it simple but you know

like it's still a main thing when it comes to like

pushing the product as well yeah

we wanna make sure that the

the product that we sell right now

can also be expanded into other product lines

it has to be because yeah

as you start gaining all this customer data

so many people forget about the customer that buy

was once

and they don't build this ladder of value products

that they can sell to customers as a continuation

you were talking about Reddit already okay

yeah so basically um

if you find a product

and you see something interesting on TikTok

like for example hair removal

what are people struggling with most

yeah on

uh with razors

you know they'll give you a list of like

you know 10

a lot

a lot on Reddit people talk about their struggles there

you know what work for them

what didn't work for them

and also based on that

we also come up with a lot of angles ourselves

you know so Reddit helps

that's a gold mine yeah

cause um

like whenever we got the angles

we talked about it and then you

we don't just stop there yet

like you don't only use in copywriting

but visuals so when they

because on Reddit

like especially people who hits the product

like comparing

people who lifts the product and hits the product

people who hits the product gives like

super in depth review

so you can get the visual out of it

and with that visual we actually do the shit

so it's gonna like people will be um

damned that resonates a lot with me

because I struggle with that too

for example if you're pregnant

like pregnant woman's uh

pregnant ladies are

find it really hard to shave and then it helps yeah

so they made it very very visual and

and it's so easy for us to

so they help you understand their struggle is that

and now you're taking the struggle

and you're adapting the entire creative

in the marketing angle to appeal to the problem exactly

that this individual is created

which you're assuming that the same problem

every other pregnant woman is facing right

and then you attack that marketing approach

exactly from that angle there's a great book

um that I always recommend to people

it's uh

forget what

what the name is called is Scientific Advertising

it's an old school book by uh

I forget I forget

I'll put it in the captions

but uh

Scientific Advertising

which is breakthrough Advertising sorry

breakthrough Advertising who's the name

do you guys know the name of the calendar anyways

it's fine uh

but Breakthrough Advertising

it's all about this exact philosophy

because back in the day

everything was run through newspaper

and everything was run through direct mail

so breakthrough advertising was this idea of

I need to be able to sell the product just with copy

and I think that most people just rely on

for example let me focus on the

the product features or

let me focus on making sure that the images are nice

yeah but they never focus on the copy

they never focus on the angle

they never focus on appealing to the pain point

and what I tell people is like

if you're not able to sell something with the copy

alone

then the copy and the angle's not strong enough and uh

I Learned that with a breakthrough advertising

and it was kind of one of those foundational books that

to me when it comes to copywriting has

has has worked efficiently

I was talking to a guy by one of my mentors

his name is J Abraham OG OG Marketing Legend

and he says that his favorite book is Breakthrough

Advertising

because what it's helped him understand was that

if you can resonate with people

just with text right

then everything else is a bonus

that just validates

the entire purpose of the conversation

what is your guy's opinion

as you guys kind of see e commerce evolving

a common issue amongst come UPS

or amongst people that are just doing six figures

you know it's easy to do $100,000 a month right

what's a common one that you guys are like

these people cannot the struggles

yeah like what we can't yeah

I would yeah

systems is definitely one thing because like

we just know how to sell you know

in the beginning we didn't know we don't know

we never worked 9 to 5 right

so we don't know how you know corporations work

you know

what what kind of positions we need to fill you know

project managers operations managers

logistics

like everything we just had to learn on our own

and someone that just started off

and once they try to get to the next level

that's one big obstacle they'll hit

there are no cars courses available for that yeah

cause you can like as one person

we can't do everything alone yeah

me and then when we first started

like we were working 20 hours a day

not even joking yeah

a goes down at account goes and with buy a new one yeah

like our you know our store goes down

we have to build a new one

you know it's like

and right now it's we have all these systems in place

um so it makes our day to day test so much easier

who builds out the systems

is that something that you guys have sat down

you're like you know what

like we need to build out a process

so that we can deliver this to an employee

that can actually do it day to day

or did you bring in a genius into your company

that builds out processes

that builds out systems

human resources or project manager

different people

have different kind of perspectives about it

what was kind of your guys approach

so so the first thing we talked about is like

yo damn

like we're working too much like we need

we need some we need some help

so usually it starts with the problem yeah

so we I think

the first position we hired was an operations manager

yeah

so we went out up work and then we wrote a simple copy

I think we got it from indeed or something

we just copy paste it and then we just we just

made it geared towards e commerce yeah

no online so luckily

we found the one and she still with us until now

five years five

six years I believe

and she and she builds out the system

she builds out the systems that the roles

obviously she doesn't know e commerce is best as us

but you know through meetings and stuff like that

she catches on and we tell her what we need

we need we need video editors

we need copywriters

we need more people on the logistics team

customer service so she's good because she's back

her background is like culprit yeah

she's good with that and that really helped us a lot

yeah in your guys opinion

how does somebody go from Hustler to boss

you know because you just don't you know

because like we come from a hustle back on

I'm gonna hustle to make my money

but now you guys are in boss mode

like you guys are really running a fucking business

like a real deal cash machine

is it building up a team

is it being able to find your lane

cause I know you guys operate as cofounders

so you guys

obviously can't be overlapping each other's tasks

in your guys opinion

I'll let you guys answer individually

what is that one ingredient

that entrepreneurs that are still in Hustler mode

they're still doing the 20 hour days

which is not sustainable it's not fucking sustainable

yeah and that's why I think a lot of people hate e

commerce and hate dropshipping

is because it's like it's like

they always feel like they're putting out fires

and that's not the business model

that's not how the business model should be operated

that's when you're in hustle mode

what is the one ingredient to go from Hustler to boss

I think like

they are comparing like good days and bad days

they are a lot of bad days

so like when those bad days come in

like what are you gonna do about it

so either like like for example

your team made a mistake are you gonna like

like just like make make a fuss about it

or are you gonna still work on it and find like

solutions so I think it

it takes a lot um

before like even becoming a boss

you need to master your craft first

understanding like like

what can you actually do

instead of just like telling them

you need to figure out your own solution

because as much as you want to be a boss

they are still learning to be your team members as well

so you don't expect you don't

you can expect them to you know like

like step up and then make their own solutions

even like if they

if they're like the experts in the industry

so I I believe like managing expectations first

and then knowing your craft

that's when you once you start um

understanding like like the

the the

the gist of it and you know

like the work around around it

and then that's when you can guide instead of like

telling people

so a lot of people just tell instead of guide

so I would I would start with by guiding

understanding like what works first and what doesn't

and then um

and once you finish all the trainings

that's when you can just like

like be more relaxed

what does guiding look like in your company

yeah so guiding involves a lot of um

um we

we

usually the first step is that we go through a meeting

and then we just walk it like use loom or I mean

if it's simple we'll just use loom

and then have them to check out the video

understand and extract information as best as you can

and then recreate your own version of it

the ones that it's easy for you to understand

and then it will be like

some sort of ASOP in the company

and then once that is done

that's where we start having like

even if if like a new team members come in

they'll like go through everything

so anyway um

we me and Han

we didn't really like we have a lot of sops right now

but back then it was just us knowing that yeah

and it was so hard because like when someone comes in

we have to keep repeating the same thing because like

facts yeah

especially when things are changing and

and like like it's not gonna be the same

so now we have like

someone to actually work on it with us

and then once they like understand all that stuff

they can update it on their own

and that's what we like about it

it's always updated so it's not just us telling them

hey um

um there's a new thing

like sometimes they just discover on their end

they make the update and then they just tell us whether

so these days it's a lot of um

hey can I make this update

we sometimes we we don't even

we didn't even know like

it's good that they're catching up

and they're just letting us know

so that's when you know that you're the boss

yeah it's when the delegation yeah

you don't have to do

you don't really have to do delegating anymore

yeah the company just runs smoothly

just check in but obviously we're always yeah

we're very me and Dan are still very hands on yeah

cause we still want the brand to grow right yeah

you know we have the vision correct right yeah

so yeah there you can go ahead

yeah so in the beginning

you're like

even if you tell like team members what to do

it's like they don't do it right yeah

so we're actually like

grand can and then to do it right yeah

so super tough so even then we were in a boss

we're just you know

it was like it was like a team member

it's a team member friends yeah

so that's when we really you know

dived in me and then had a meeting

and we sat down with our operations manager okay

this is how we can onboard a video editor

a customer service rep a project manager

you know all these different departments

and once that started going smooth

it's changed the game for us right yeah

it's like yeah

so these days

we're now no longer like in as much involved

like hiring like

like scouting for new talents or training

so these days there are a lot of um

guidelines that we create

like videos and that we usually

when they are on boarded

we usually have them watch these few videos

that we preselect so you know

like there are a lot of courses these days yeah

pro like 20 is like 80 20 game so like 20% are reliable

so we take that 20% and then we know because we

we've been doing that yeah

you know we got what's good and what's yeah

we got our hands dirty so we know

so that actually made our team members got like better

because they got a show card

they don't have to learn you know

from E to Z discovering like new courses

what's working because we know what's working

yeah but one of the bad

I mean the hardest positions to hire

I would say is media bar oh yeah

so one state uh

back then it's like if you know how to media buy

you don't really have to stick with one company

you know you have multiple sources of ink

you can run as for every like every company

so even as to this day I do a lot of the media buying

but I'll have a right hand that I train myself

that I really trust you need

you need to really hide

cause they're we're spending 40

50 thousand dollars a day right

let's say you know

egg was wrong with it

put the you can't just have a whatever person in right

it's like one day we lost like 30 40,000 yeah

was that was that

cause you had somebody running ads or

it's actually my mind

yeah we also try like hired different media buyers

it was a lot of feels yeah

I think like the most failure that we had

when it comes to hiring is media buyers

cause it was that hard yeah

so to what is what is the what is the number one

so let's say I have a couple VAs right

people already do customer service

the basic stuff maybe a little bit of product research

what is the No. 1

most important role that an e commerce

entrepreneur needs to fulfill

in order to scale their business Hanzi

so scaling is a whole different game

you need like

you need your assistance in place before you actually

you know try to get to the next level right

from 10 k to 20 k

you definitely need your payment processors right

your Paypal Email Paypal call Paypal

be like oh

I think my revenue is gonna jump up

like don't please don't flag the account

write a nice email stuff like that

so you're anticipating with payment processors

you're letting them know yo

we're about to scale

like having giving you guys a heads up

super important like

you're humanizing

the experience of the payment processor

so they're not getting caught off guard right

so that was like my

I used to have a call with Paypal every week

you know we're gonna be expecting this kind of revenue

why our dispute rates went up

why you know

why our shipments are late

stuff like that right

but one important I think

customer service is one of the most important part yeah

that's what a lot of people uh

you know people starting off avoid charge bags right

you're not gonna have returning customers

not a business you just running

you know cash flow

yeah cash flow

you don't have a brand

it's like it's like a pump and dunk like crypto

you know back then you can do that

but these days it's all been a day yeah

it's all been to make it

customers and like customer service is like well

because the lifetime

because the customer so expensive to acquire

now that that that's what I tell people is like

if the only type

of approach that you have with the customer

is the first sale then like you said

it's a pump and dump you don't really have a business

you've just sold a QVC

and a QVC nowadays is not sustainable

because the customers

nowadays are so educated about the market

like back in the day we could run a sponsored post

you could run a YouTube ad

and most people didn't even know that it was

that they were being advertised to nowadays

everybody knows that it's an ad

everybody knows what a Shopify store looks like

everybody knows what a funnel looks like

when you're going through it

so there needs to be kind of like

discredibility and trust that's being built

do you guys have like a specific mechanism for okay

now you have a winning product

how do you build a ladder of products attached to that

one to increase the lifetime value of the customer

yeah so I think like we usually start with the

the niche that we're in so for example

if it's a hair removal

we start studying the competitor

usually we go with big names

and then study what kind of products do they have

that is complementary

the so the first thing that you want to know

you want to build first

is something that complementary for that product

so for our for example our eyelash brand

the Lash Serum really took off

and then we need to figure out what's the next product

because we need to make sure

people are buying more

so we actually meet another serum for your eyebrow

so people bought that bundle easily and our

it will be double almost overnight

so and it was a really good um

a time for us because um um

we were already skilling the eyelash serum

and we don't even have to start marketing

on the eyebrow because people are already interested

with the prime returning cost yeah

returning customer rate right now is like 60% 60% yeah

for that brand so for that brand yeah

so the problem works yeah

it's not just this is that's oh yeah

that's important too but that's a misconception

we'll talk about in just a second

product quality that's a common is misconception

when it comes to e commerce

and I hear it people are like

oh yeah dropship being or e commerce

you just buy a product from Ali Baba

you forex the price

and you just try to sell it to people right

but that's no longer the thing

you know what it's like it's like

did you did you guys do crypto at all

like did you guys like at all

like see the space when like

there was a shit coins and all that okay

so it's very much like that phase when something's new

the scammers try to like

take advantage of the loopholes and finesse

but once things start getting more regulated

start getting a little bit more intense and kind of

there's a little bit more heat in the market

or potentially like competitors

only the best live

so this kind of concept of pumping and dumping products

like you said is no longer sustainable

you have to have a strategy attached to it

you mention the strategy of kind of building that

latter value

products that have like a synergy attached to

so you have something for lashes

it only makes sense to have something for the eyebrows

right it's literally fucking one inch away right yeah

I wanna kind of merge over to Facebook ads

since you were talking about it kind of being this

kind of your sauce probably Facebook ads God um

I wanna talk a little bit about what that looks like

nowadays uh

with cost being higher with uh

tracking being a little bit more complicated

what are some strategies not

not tactics that in three months will become irrelevant

what are some perspectives that you implement

when you're advertising that are valuable

so everyone tries to be you know

profitable when they're first

you know to the cold audience

right when you're first advertising

so our CPA CPAs went up like I would see over 50%

so for this product right now

we are having like $15 CPA when we first started

like little over a year earlier

so right now it's like $30 right

so right now

we try to make it up through increasing our a O

V through up sales shipping

you know insurance

stuff like that right

and also we go heavy and retargeting

let's say you know

our products we offer 20% off

30% off right

but that's where we make most of our money

even because break

we for the first for the cool audience

we mostly break even but for the back and the retarding

the returning customer

is where we make most of the money honestly

so you have to kind of have a strategy

and that's funny that you say that

because most people don't even retarget

most people just cold traffic

cold traffic cold traffic

what is your backend marketing

you guys have email SMS you guys

how does that function with you guys

you guys play a lot with that

a lot we invest a lot in beckend

um especially emails SMS

um

um yeah

we we

we we have a lot of um

for backhand it's not our brand butter

so that's why we outsourced that

that's the only thing we outsourced

because we've worked with yeah agencies

um for few years and they did a really good job and um

and they they control all of our backhand

so meaning like our um um

let's say we are having a sale for this

month they will handle everything all the SMS emails

all that stuff you know

Hanzi question for you

cold traffic break even retarganing

that's where you make your money uh

do you guys use any other advertising platform

apart from Facebook

is there any what's what's your B tier

I will see 90% Facebook 10% Google so Google

talk to me a little bit about Google Google

we run a lot I don't run it anymore

my media buyer does

so right now we're spending like 5K day

that's pure we targeting

so Facebook at dcaras on Facebook right

30 days later dcara

because most of the time

when you see it in first impression

you're not gonna know by yeah

but Google right you're scrolling through a website

you're scrolling through other hair removal methods

you see alright

right click there's a discount

first time buy discount 30% off they buy

you know so it's Google makes up like

you really need to set up your media buying correctly

in order to have a brand that's gonna be profitable

the long let me let

I'll give you guys a little sauce that we used to do

when we were running e commerce

you guys do any Google shopping

yeah we do

so how we run we running Google Shopping was

we would create a second brand

that was running the same product

so on column one

we would have the original brand that we were running

Facebook ads for

and that would be labeled on Google Shopping No. 1

and then we would create a second brand

Google Shopping alone it was just a retargeting brand

no Facebook ads

but it would be cheaper than the first one

because you would have the buyer right

I got you a little sauce I got you a little sauce

because they would come in and be like

ha

I got the brand No. 1 because I found them for cheaper

but cheaper version is you yeah

and then we would run No. 3

No. 4 No. 5

all in latter value but it was this

it was all connected to the same back end

to the same fulfillment

and to the same payment processor

so we had run 1 2

3 4

5 but 2 through 5 was just simply Google Shopping

we targeting we clean the entire fucking market

so yeah we were

this man's like hey bro

let's go try this out tomorrow

yes you know

it works super well so uh

kind of moving a little bit along uh

with with the future of e commerce

where you guys see

where do you guys see kind of the future of ecom

I know it's getting a little bit difficult

but you guys clearly are still absolutely smashing it

Daniel what are your

what are your thoughts on the future of ecom

yeah um

you know like e commerce is a huge space

so right now like there's TikTok ads and and um

you know like a lot of catching up especially after um

the lockdowns people are going out there

they buying like offline now

and so we didn't stop there

we still keep on kept on testing new things

finding like new new channels like Amazon

even if it's TikTok

like although like Facebook is still king

there are still other channels that you know

helps with the cash flow as well

so you don't wanna miss out and

and and any other channels

so for us um like

like there's gonna be a time that um um

any any

any brands is gonna be going into like

a stagnant phase where you couldn't make like

as much as you make back then

but it's still consistent

so what we do now now that we have the systems ready

we start looking out for new partners

so for new brands that are you know

like people have the product and and they

they are getting like traction

so but they don't know like

instead of wasting years learning by themselves

we

we actually can just acquire or partner out with him

with them so that's where

what we think the future would be is building like

like a more in each industry

so we would wanna go into wellness

we wanna go because with us it's not about um um

we don't get investors we don't get fundings

we actually use our own cash

so that's where it it

it's best to use uh

because we make sure that we don't lose the cash

cause it's our own money

so we start looking for partners that

that are growing and that we build with them

and then build more relationships

and that's where we figure out like

by dominating the industry

you can't do it on your own

so you gotta get a lot of people coming into

together and work with you yeah

future Recon what do you see

the biggest struggle right now

is most people don't buy in the first touch right

so you really need to build a community

I think that's the most important

people just try to sell the product

put up a Facebook ad once in Google ads

they're not gonna buy this so many other

this is so many

too much noise and too many copycats of the same yeah

same products like they don't they don't know what's

you know so you really have to I would say content

content super important right

build a community of Facebook group

a people struggling with hair removal

stuff like that

that's what we really trying to focus on right now

because honestly back in 2018

we were just trying to sell right

we didn't care and give a shit right

we just were broke

we just wanted to make some money right so uh

the future I would say is definitely you need to learn

you really need like I

would say like ambassador or like face of the brand

you have to be more real with the customer

there's so many influencers you just pay them out post

they don't they're not gonna fall for that anymore

cause we tried ourselves

we used to spend 10 50 thousand dollars a month

it doesn't it doesn't work anymore bro yeah

you really have to be real with the customers

these days so that's yeah

even like you

with the micro influencer is not just about posting

even if you're a small audience

is not just about posting

it's about like like

you are actually using the product

and you post it all the time

so they're not gonna buy on the first time

so next time you post it someone's gonna like

oh that that's kind of cool

she's still using it

and then the next time you post it

and with a discount code for example

so you gotta treat it like like a flow

so people won't buy the first time

so

that's why when it comes to working with influencers

we don't really spend a lot with a lot of influences

we just work with few influences that we know for sure

they actually fuck with the product yeah yeah

actually yeah

they were usually usually they are old customers

so that that's why the marketing for us yeah

they do the marketing for us

so we have an affiliate program called refersion

so we pay out a bunch of affiliates every month

right so they bring us

you know a couple thousand dollars

probably tens of thousand dollars a month

in just referral sales

so you really have to build a community

and also

I would say you really need like an incredible product

but you have to be on the channel

you can just rely on Facebook

you know Google YouTube

try to you know

build the community go to college

so we're starting a new skincare brand

right it's called

it's like a daily refresh spray

it's called yuzu

so what we're planning to do is while we're

you know we're

we really push Facebook ads

Google as TikTok stuff like that

we plan to go to colleges and actually spread and run

like a new real life ambassador product right

do you remember do you remember

there was an app that fucking crushed by doing that

it's no longer around it's called Get Yak

do you remember that app it was a

it was a it was a privacy app

back in the day that they used in colleges

and Snapchat was doing the same exact thing

where basically they would go to uh

the university they would hire three or 4

5 of the most influential people in the college

based off of followers or based off of whatever

and then they would have that person talking

post about the app

and everybody in the school would download

and that was the first thing

the second thing that they were doing is

they would just run targeted ads

hyperfocus to that location

so instead of running global

it would they would just run to that city

and the people in that city felt like it was a global

mainstream product

just because they were just getting bombarded with it

left right and center

oh this products going viral

this product when reality

it's just going viral in that specific nation

that specific area but I agree with you

there has to be a humanized effect

in the multi channels where a lot of people miss out

strategy

talk to me about how much time you guys spend planning

sitting down and being like okay

like where do we move next

cause it seems like you guys really are pioneering e

commerce

I hear a lot of things that most people talk about

but they don't actually implement

a lot of people talk about

maybe one or two of the ingredients

but you guys seem to be really pulling through

how much time do you guys sit together as founders

and really just pen to the

pen to the paper and just

I need to figure out new strategies

I need to figure out how the markets working

talk to me a little bit about that

yeah so we're always brainstorming

yeah you know

but most of our focus right now is we're trying to exit

right but then that's hard

but we're trying to build team to really

you know grow the brand

we're focusing a lot on wholesale these days

that's what we kind of you know discussed

Ulta Beauty reached out to us the other day

and a lot of acquirers but

uh like that part like

you know corporate

that's like most mostly corporate right

so we don't know much

so that's what we're mostly trying to strategize on

you know how to price our products right

how to get into these big box stores target

old Sephora because a lot of them reach out to us

but we don't know how to you know respond

so that's one building e commerce business is easy

but actually scaling it into like real

you know like a handheld

you know it's

it's different games so well

it's a different level

so one thing is like making the money

the other thing is like growing it

growing it

and then taking it to a place where it's enticing

for somebody to acquire I was talking with

with another guest that I had on Money Talks

a couple weeks ago his name's Alvin Poe

he exited um

a a software company for 30 million uh

and he was telling me that

the number one thing that investors look at is

when I buy this the same way

when you guys try and get like

some sort of acquisition

or you try to get some equity deal and some more

in some other niche is how can I make my money back

yeah what a lot of these guys are looking at these vcs

these private equity firms

these investment branches

whatever they whatever they may be

they look at can I plug and play right

so

it all comes down to systems and automation and teams

so that was the big thing

the big caveat for me was most people

if they leave the business

the business dies so I realized

now you guys are in a great place

because you're no longer working in the business

you're working on the business

so how do I package this thing

in order to be presentable for an exit

and I guess that takes the next

that's where you guys are like the next level right

so how do I from 50 m's in sales now

how do I get the 50M payout check for the actual brand

how important is branding

how important is kind of like the

the

the eye candy per se of the brand

with regards to being enticing to Ulta

Beauty or Sephora and things of this nature

yeah I think like

like the the product itself have to be like really good

it has to make like the first impression

so like most of the product that we choose

even to partner with someone

by an equity inside a company

we look for a product that that's a first comer

so yeah you know

like like even yeah

first wow factor yeah

that's a wow factor even by looking at it

you thing like I never seen that kind of product before

so that alone is a is a unit factor for us

not only soft one problem

multiple problem and it's

it has a while factor that's no one knows about it

so it's not just gonna gonna be like a simple um

a product um

um that that's you know

like you have it everywhere in stores

it's gonna be like

something that's only available to be purchased online

for example so um

that alone um will actually make its own brand

because it's like its own specific thing

so the complementary products are the common products

so

people are more familiar with the rest of the products

so they will understand oh

this brand is

you don't have to educate exactly about the add ons

exactly yeah

so they know about it oh

and and they like oh

I can just buy more because they have everything there

and and the product itself built its own brand

and that's where you know like

like we don't usually start with branding

we start with the product and then we find like

like what kind of brand ideas

concept that fits within the product and the industry

yeah so that's why how we usually start wrapping it up

what's next what's next in the pipeline

what's next in the perspective

I know you guys are doing exits

but I'm curious about this mention

this idea of investing

or buying into companies and different niches

which seems to be kind of part of you guys strategy

uh when you guys come into one of these companies um

because obviously

as people listen to this on Money Talks

there will be plenty of people running

seven figure brands and be like yo

let me

let me find see if I can get a hold of Honzi and

and pitching my idea

see if I can get a hold Daniel pitching my idea

what is it that you guys look for

when it comes to these micro brands

that you can actually scale from 6 to 7

from 7 to eight so we try to look for

so we try to think of how we started right

they have they know how to run ads

they have a good product but they don't have systems

they don't know how to scale payment processors

logistics right

so right off the bat with be

you know partner with a with a brand

we can the profits will go up

because we have the best shipping rates right

and we know how to build systems for

you know our processors

a lot of them have payment process issues

a on my my strike is going down

but we have connects right

so that's

but the one thing we really look for is actually

you know the product the product

you know the ice plunge yes

so

we recently just partnered out with one of these guys

that just so he was doing 5K at a

and then we did some CRO work

right web dev conversion optimization

and then now they're doing 10 cages

doubled in two weeks

just you need

like a unique product or something that's trending

and we try to take over by

you know

scaling with paid media and our branding skills

you know

you're having heavily experienced team members

because for them like not

not just of course like it's a different product

you there's different angles

but there's like a templated

because we had success with our brands

then it's easy to replicate to other brands

cause it's the same thing

it's all about selling

so you can replicate the kind of um um

creatives the kind of um um

Seattle work kind of website

what made a conversion rate increase

so yeah our average like

conversion rate is roughly like 5 to 7% and

and that's what matters most

because you can't pay Facebook to get more traffic

but you can't pay like to make sure

you can make sure that the website you have

converse even better yes

so you you don't have to pay too much

let me ask you guys uh

two more questions on on the logistical site

so what what is your cogs versus what you sell

what what is your what is your price there

so I usually when I was doing e commerce heavy

it was like 25%

but I know it might be different with brands

cause you have to spend more time with with

with branding and packaging and

and things of this nature

how do you guys price this

in a way where you guys are still highly profitable

so what's your kind of pricing model and perspective

with that testing is everything

we don't do multiples anything like that

we play around we go from like

let's say we initially test a product for 39

it doesn't work we go to 29

yeah eventually we go to 2019

you know

we play around with the shipping and everything

but the reason we actually pick

you know

the health and beauty cosmetics super profitable

yeah you buy let's say eyelash serum right

you get it for like $2 right

we sell for 39

but we make the the branding

the perceived value so that actually

someone will actually purchase it for $39

so I would say it's all you know again

I mean if you start looking at luxury brand

they do the exact same thing like Jill

like if you bro if you look at a Louis Vuitton ship

that shit doesn't cost a thousand bucks

like let's be honest what does that cost 30 yeah

thirty like it's all in the packaging

the branding experience

the experience that you give to the customer

like even if you look at Kylie

Jenner's products and things of

this nature that shit doesn't cost you

like brother looks like it was made from in China

as it was most likely or something along those lines

so you the pricing model

something that you guys kind of just gauge

and then you kind of traffic wise

you kind of like feel it out

feel it out yeah

interesting any last thoughts

I'm gonna give you guys one

like one data set is what I like to call them when

when advice uh

to not just entrepreneurs and e commerce

but come up

entrepreneurs that are trying to get to the next level

in order to kind of inspire them

or give them a little data set to march them forward

like I think like it's it's

it's not about like we

we all have like our days where we

you know we can wake up

wake up and do work and some days

you know it's just not working

but it's I feel like it long term wise

it's like about how hungry you are

when it went in this space

like if you wanna like for us

we don't even like spend so back then when you know

like you feel like um

you're the king

you have everything you tend to spend a lot

but these days me and on we don't even spend

we just work and then we try to give back

so as much as we wanna give back

there's like there's a sense

of responsibilities now we have families now we have

you know people working less with have we have like

like not just our own family

but we have team that have their own families

so how can we actually benefit them as well

so it's all about giving back and and to give back

you gotta be hungry you gotta like wanting more

and then your team got to be hungry with you as well

so

how much did they wanna help their own family as well

to build this

we gotta we gotta go all in and and you know

like it's not just me doing my thing you do your thing

it's gotta be together that's what I often tell people

it's not that there's food missing

is that you're just not hungry enough yeah

and that's often the case

you kind of get complacent

you're doing 50K a month

you're making 30 k profit 20 k profit

like you're cruising

but if you wanna start taking it to the next level

you're gonna have to onboard people

is it they're gonna help level you up

but simultaneously

you're now you have more people to feed yeah

it's not just yourself right

piece of advice

I would say mindset is everything right

instead of learning how to sell

you gotta work on your mindset to be hungry

like what what what are you striving for

do you want a better life

do you wanna provide for you know kids in Africa

do you wanna give back to the community

so I think that changed the game for me in 2018

when I dropped out of college yeah

when I dropped out of college right

it's like cause my parents were there Asian

she would they work at a so my dad was a cab driver

my mom was she used to work at a nail salon

so what's my why to retire them

so how hungry am I I'm super hungry like

you know they provide

they try their best

they what came from Korea to the US with nothing

and you know they work their ass off

they try to provide for me

so now I gotta give back

so that was like my biggest reason that fueled

you know how do before I wrap it up

your why being hungry

how do you

cause you said your team used to be hungry

how do you motivate your team

yes so a lot of people think it's monetary value

so for us it's like like giving them access to us

and we're not just stopping them there

so like for example

we know for sure they're not gonna be working with us

10 years 20 years later

but we wanna let them know that

they are going to have their own opportunity

and we want to be there for them

so for example we straight away just ask like

um don't you wanna build a business

what kind of business I wanna help

we straight away say

I wanna have what resources do you need

what kind of like things do you need to buy

who do you need

so we want them to not only work in that

you know like in that industry by themselves

we want them to build their own team

find their own people grow as a person yeah

grow as a person as a business

so and and and that's why they they became like hungry

they don't like

usually most people like working with us

no like working like in in e commerce

they just feel like especially VA stages

feel like they need to fulfill their day to day task

and that's it for us

it's not just about just about that we wanna like hey

I I think you can do this well

if you have like your own team

and then you can you know

find clients and we can help you find clients

and then that's where like they get the draft like oh

he's right they see a bigger yeah yeah

yeah

because like a lot of them are like pretty much closed

they just you know like especially Vas

they work in their room

they're not like meeting a lot of people

they're not going out

we do that and then so for us it's if it's not us

then who's gonna like teach them yeah

we also help them a lot yeah

to us and like we don't just talk about business

we talk about you know yeah

so a lot of our you know these in Philippines right

so the one the other day

one of our VS got robbed their house right

so we gave them you know

everything we bought everything they lost we

you know we had a meeting talk with them

like what he strongly with struck the stuff like this

we help them at like emotionally

not just monetary like yeah

like we just across the country just so you know

learning how to do business

I agree because there's this

this idea that money is the only motivator

and it isn't that there was a

there was so something that we do inside Capital Club

I'm big about like water right

and there's like

fluoride and tap water and things like that

don't drink the tap water

so every single one of our employees

they get a reverse osmosis water machine

so as soon as you get on boarded clean water instantly

right and we've had employees that you know

in the Philippines

they have like all the what is it the the

the what's the big is it like hurricanes or

oh yeah they have what is it that they get crazy stuff

so sometimes typhoons right

so

sometimes we're in situations where we have employees

where their roofs literally blow off

so there

we are making sure that they get new roofs and things

of this nature so there's

there's a factor of gratitude that transcends uh

the paycheck and I think that like you guys said

in order to keep somebody hungry

you also need to be able to give them a vision

yeah and a lot of these people

they don't have a vision

because nobody's ever given them an opportunity

outside of oh

here is your paycheck this is all you can do

so they live in the confines of their room

exactly not only in their room

but in the mental room that they created for themselves

I think what you guys are doing is super cool

I I've appreciated seeing you guys scale

I look forward to seeing you guys

build out your exit strategy

and the next money talks will do

will be how to exit for an e commerce business

and go from hero to zero from zero to hero

and now from hero to complete exit voice

thank you so much for sure for joining me today

appreciate I uh

I I appreciate the data sets and uh

thank you so much for uh

the pioneering that you guys are doing in the space

ladies and gentlemen

that is another episode of Money Talks

I hope you guys enjoyed it just as much as I did

that you guys were able to take some data sets away

and I will see you guys on the next one