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Hello, anybody
that is watching.
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00:00:04,890 --> 00:00:05,860
Hi.
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00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:32,070
Early on with Natalia,
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00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:34,480
she was doing
as many things as possible
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00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:36,900
to cause hurt or harm
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00:00:37,100 --> 00:00:38,960
or mental distress
to the entire family.
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00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:43,380
I've got my adopted daughter
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00:00:43,580 --> 00:00:46,340
trying to poison
and kill my wife.
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00:00:47,510 --> 00:00:50,370
We have had her standing
over my bed with a knife.
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00:00:51,790 --> 00:00:54,650
She's clearly dangerous.
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00:00:55,890 --> 00:00:56,900
At this point, what do we do?
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00:00:57,100 --> 00:00:59,060
We... we take her
to the stress center.
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00:01:07,370 --> 00:01:10,070
She's seen by
a psychiatric doctor.
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00:01:10,270 --> 00:01:12,070
And so, at this point in time,
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we had already begun asking
16
00:01:13,370 --> 00:01:15,070
mental health
professionals for help,
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00:01:15,270 --> 00:01:16,270
trying to find guidance,
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00:01:16,470 --> 00:01:18,790
trying to figure out
the right medication.
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And all we're told
at every turn is,
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"Nothing you can
do about this.
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She is this.
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This doesn't go away.
This doesn't change.
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And she can't stay
at the stress center.
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She's... she's yours.
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00:01:36,470 --> 00:01:37,340
Take her home."
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00:01:42,410 --> 00:01:44,060
But they did say,
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"You can't let Natalia have
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00:01:45,820 --> 00:01:47,620
free roam
of the house anymore.
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00:01:47,820 --> 00:01:49,580
You need to put a latch
on the outside of her door.
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00:01:50,310 --> 00:01:53,000
And anytime she needs food,
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00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,900
bath, bathroom,
whatever is needed,
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00:01:56,100 --> 00:01:59,070
you need to escort her
through the house.
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00:01:59,270 --> 00:02:01,960
You cannot let her freely roam
your home anymore."
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00:02:04,100 --> 00:02:05,170
At this point,
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00:02:05,370 --> 00:02:07,580
we haven't done anything
as a family for a long time.
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We can't go
eat dinner together.
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We can't go to the
grocery store together.
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00:02:12,610 --> 00:02:15,550
We are always
on guard for things.
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We don't do anything.
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00:02:18,510 --> 00:02:21,690
So, it's my son's birthday.
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Ethan, my youngest son,
loved cows.
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So for his birthday,
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00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:27,210
we find a place
in Indianapolis
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that lets you milk
your own cow.
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And it's called
Traders Point Creamery.
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We get inside and they say,
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"We have some release forms
for you to sign."
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00:02:40,510 --> 00:02:43,030
Out there where the cows are
is an electric fence.
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00:02:43,510 --> 00:02:44,900
And you have to say,
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00:02:45,100 --> 00:02:46,170
you know there's
an electric fence there,
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00:02:46,370 --> 00:02:48,380
and if you touch it
and you get harmed,
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00:02:48,580 --> 00:02:50,170
that you're not
going to hold us liable.
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When they say that to us,
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Natalia's eyes lit up
like a Christmas tree.
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"Really?
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00:03:01,370 --> 00:03:02,690
There's a scary
fence out there
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00:03:02,890 --> 00:03:04,860
and, uh, I have to sign this?"
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Happily signs away.
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00:03:11,100 --> 00:03:13,520
It's another quarter mile
from that building
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00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:14,620
to where the fence starts.
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00:03:14,820 --> 00:03:15,960
Everything's fine.
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00:03:19,620 --> 00:03:21,790
The moment we get
within ten feet of the fence,
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00:03:23,580 --> 00:03:25,680
Natalia suddenly
can't walk again.
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00:03:28,890 --> 00:03:31,960
Before we went
on a walk on the trail,
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00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,060
like, uh, my mom and Natalia
sort of stayed back.
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00:03:37,620 --> 00:03:39,070
So Kristine decides
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you're not going to ruin
Ethan's birthday.
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Michael, you take the boys.
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00:03:45,890 --> 00:03:47,580
You go on ahead.
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I will stay back here
and I'll handle this.
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00:03:52,100 --> 00:03:54,690
Myself, my three sons,
we keep going.
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00:03:54,890 --> 00:03:55,960
We keep going. We keep going.
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We get about 40, 50 yards down
and I start hearing screaming.
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00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:02,960
I turn and look.
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00:04:03,370 --> 00:04:05,210
Natalia and Kristine
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00:04:05,410 --> 00:04:06,620
are in a physical altercation.
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00:04:07,890 --> 00:04:10,270
It looks like Natalia's
trying to pull Kristine.
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00:04:11,510 --> 00:04:12,520
Now you might think,
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00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:14,960
"Hey, she's a little person.
How strong can she be?"
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00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,000
She uses her arms a lot.
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00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:20,520
Push herself up on things.
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00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,790
She goes up the stairs
using her arms.
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00:04:22,990 --> 00:04:25,860
She's got guns that
Schwarzenegger would
be impressed with.
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00:04:26,510 --> 00:04:27,790
She's very strong.
85
00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:30,000
My wife is frail.
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00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,170
She's got a degenerative
disease called lupus.
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00:04:32,370 --> 00:04:33,900
She's weak.
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00:04:34,100 --> 00:04:38,550
I start to go back.
Kristine says, "No, go."
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00:04:39,890 --> 00:04:41,070
Okay.
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00:04:41,270 --> 00:04:44,170
She wants my son to have
his birthday. We go.
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00:04:44,370 --> 00:04:46,030
And me and the boys
double time it.
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00:04:48,790 --> 00:04:50,340
We get a little bit
farther down...
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00:04:52,370 --> 00:04:53,550
and we hear the sirens.
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00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:57,440
The second I heard the sirens,
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00:04:58,510 --> 00:05:00,240
I thought Kristine was dead.
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00:05:01,370 --> 00:05:02,340
I think she's dead.
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00:05:04,890 --> 00:05:06,410
And the police have arrived,
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00:05:06,610 --> 00:05:08,960
um, ambulances have arrived.
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00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,650
And we can see
Kristine is there.
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00:05:12,410 --> 00:05:14,580
Kristine's very angry,
very upset.
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00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:17,790
Natalia's over with the EMTs,
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00:05:18,410 --> 00:05:19,690
and Natalia had been trying
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00:05:19,890 --> 00:05:21,550
to pull Kristine
into the electric fence.
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00:05:24,100 --> 00:05:25,960
She'd been screaming out loud.
105
00:05:28,620 --> 00:05:30,380
How am I with language
in this interview?
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Am I allowed to use words?
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"You bitch,
I'm going to kill you.
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I'm going to kill you,
you bitch.
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You're going to die."
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00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:39,900
Kristine's screaming at them,
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00:05:40,100 --> 00:05:41,960
"She needs to be arrested.
She tried to kill me.
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00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,170
She needs to be arrested.
She tried to
kill me."
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We wanted charges.
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00:05:47,370 --> 00:05:48,270
We wanted her arrested.
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00:05:48,470 --> 00:05:50,520
She, admittedly,
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00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,410
to their face when they came
to the 911 call said,
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00:05:54,610 --> 00:05:56,750
"I'm trying to kill her."
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00:05:58,100 --> 00:06:01,380
They made the distinction
that their visual told them,
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00:06:01,580 --> 00:06:04,170
"Hey, that's a little girl.
120
00:06:04,370 --> 00:06:06,520
She's not really trying
to kill anybody. She's sick.
121
00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,270
We're going to take her
to the hospital instead."
122
00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:12,790
But they stated we're not
going to press charges.
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00:06:12,990 --> 00:06:14,960
She's going to get
a mental health evaluation.
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00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,960
I think she was
already in the ambulance
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00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:20,480
by the time I had come back.
126
00:06:21,310 --> 00:06:22,520
I was like,
"Oh, well, I guess,
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00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:24,410
Natalia's mental health
is clearly off.
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00:06:24,610 --> 00:06:26,750
I guess it's good that
she goes to the hospital."
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00:06:34,170 --> 00:06:35,620
I felt a sense of relief,
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00:06:35,820 --> 00:06:38,440
like, uh, it can be
a little safer.
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00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:41,070
Kristine and I said,
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00:06:41,270 --> 00:06:45,620
"She has to go to a hospital
long-term and get help."
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00:06:45,820 --> 00:06:47,520
We didn't know how long.
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00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,380
She can't come home
until she's better.
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00:06:51,580 --> 00:06:53,480
When Natalia was in
the state mental hospital,
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00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,900
she was under 24/7
observation and care
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00:06:57,100 --> 00:06:59,480
of 90 doctors, nurses,
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00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,620
orderlies, therapists,
et cetera.
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00:07:02,820 --> 00:07:05,900
While she's there, she admits
openly and freely that,
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"Yeah, I'm trying to kill her.
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00:07:08,410 --> 00:07:09,790
And by the way,
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00:07:09,990 --> 00:07:12,960
I'm going to tell you,
doctors, and I'm going
to write this in my journal.
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00:07:13,580 --> 00:07:15,060
I'm going to kill
the boys, too.
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00:07:16,890 --> 00:07:20,000
And here's specifically
what I'm going to do to them.
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00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,680
I am going to stab them
with a knife while they sleep.
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00:07:25,100 --> 00:07:27,000
I'm going to drag their bodies
out of the house,
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00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,170
and I'm going to put them
underneath the deck out back."
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Natalia drew this picture
immediately after being
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00:07:35,820 --> 00:07:37,790
admitted to Larue Carter
State Hospital.
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00:07:39,510 --> 00:07:41,790
It says, "bye," as in goodbye.
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00:09:15,680 --> 00:09:17,650
After a couple weeks,
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00:09:18,620 --> 00:09:19,960
we get a phone call from them.
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"You got to come get her."
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00:09:22,510 --> 00:09:23,550
Why?
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00:09:25,620 --> 00:09:27,340
Well, they tried to be
really delicate with it.
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00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:30,680
"Natalia was
propositioning the men."
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00:09:32,790 --> 00:09:33,720
What are you talking about?
158
00:09:41,410 --> 00:09:43,270
Natalia was at Larue Carter.
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00:09:43,470 --> 00:09:46,860
We had been trying to get her
to inpatient treatment.
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00:09:47,060 --> 00:09:49,960
We had been
begging people to help us.
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00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,000
We had been told by everybody,
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00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:53,580
"You need help desperately.
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Your family's in danger.
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00:09:55,100 --> 00:09:56,860
She needs
inpatient treatment."
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"Great.
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00:09:58,990 --> 00:10:00,000
We are at
an inpatient facility.
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00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:00,900
That's fantastic.
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00:10:01,100 --> 00:10:02,240
Can you help us?"
"No."
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00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:06,240
They said, "Mr. Barnett,
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00:10:07,100 --> 00:10:09,550
the state mental hospital,
the adult wing,
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00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:11,930
most of the men there,
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00:10:13,270 --> 00:10:15,550
they're not particularly
good with children.
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00:10:17,270 --> 00:10:19,750
And they're not particularly
good with girls.
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00:11:06,890 --> 00:11:08,070
So, after a month,
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00:11:08,270 --> 00:11:10,900
they need her
out of there because
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00:11:11,100 --> 00:11:14,130
bad things are about to happen
with all the men in the unit.
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00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,100
"Take her home."
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00:11:16,300 --> 00:11:19,170
"She's going to kill us."
"Can't help you."
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00:11:21,100 --> 00:11:23,000
The danger we've been in
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00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:24,900
isn't going anywhere
anytime soon,
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00:11:25,100 --> 00:11:26,370
and it can't be controlled.
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00:11:34,100 --> 00:11:35,210
I'm Beth Karas.
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00:11:35,410 --> 00:11:36,900
I'm an attorney in New York.
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00:11:37,100 --> 00:11:38,480
I'm a former prosecutor.
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00:11:40,580 --> 00:11:43,860
What hooked me in this case
was just the strange story.
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00:11:47,060 --> 00:11:48,860
She's had various diagnoses,
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00:11:49,060 --> 00:11:50,650
the last one being sociopath.
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00:11:52,580 --> 00:11:54,690
But in my opinion,
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there are questions, a lot
of questions with this case.
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00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,380
The fundamental rule
in all investigations
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00:12:01,580 --> 00:12:05,370
is that you follow the facts
wherever they may lead you.
192
00:12:07,790 --> 00:12:11,170
There are some things that
just don't sit right with me.
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00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,060
If she's actually
threatening to kill them,
194
00:12:15,790 --> 00:12:17,370
you got to go
to the police.
195
00:12:23,100 --> 00:12:25,340
Kristine and Michael
don't call the police.
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00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,210
But the neighbor,
who is very concerned,
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00:12:29,410 --> 00:12:32,100
does call the
Department of Child Services,
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00:12:32,300 --> 00:12:36,690
who bring in the police
in March of 2012.
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00:12:36,890 --> 00:12:40,370
They get a report
of child neglect of Natalia.
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00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,270
March comes.
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00:12:44,470 --> 00:12:45,580
Kristine and Natalia
are having the
202
00:12:45,780 --> 00:12:46,930
"who are you?" fight.
203
00:12:48,270 --> 00:12:50,900
Kristine wants Natalia
to write down
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00:12:51,100 --> 00:12:52,270
people she's lived with,
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00:12:52,580 --> 00:12:53,860
places she's been.
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00:12:54,060 --> 00:12:55,650
Tell us about
people you've known.
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00:12:57,100 --> 00:13:00,860
And this night,
Kristine decides
208
00:13:01,310 --> 00:13:02,270
that the most effective way
209
00:13:02,470 --> 00:13:04,760
to make you tell me
who you really are
210
00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,130
is you no longer have
a bedroom or a bed.
211
00:13:08,270 --> 00:13:09,860
You sleep outside.
212
00:13:11,270 --> 00:13:12,240
Grab your blanket.
213
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:14,370
You're sleeping
on the back deck.
214
00:13:16,890 --> 00:13:18,000
Natalia's out there crying
215
00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,070
finally, like,
three hours into this.
216
00:13:21,270 --> 00:13:23,960
Well, I tell Kristine,
"I can't do this."
217
00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,030
I get up, I let Natalia in,
I get her back to her room.
218
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:29,550
One of the neighbors
called CPS.
219
00:13:30,310 --> 00:13:32,380
So CPS shows up on the door,
220
00:13:32,580 --> 00:13:33,790
Child Protective Services,
221
00:13:33,990 --> 00:13:36,030
with a detective from
the local police department.
222
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,100
They come in,
they've gotten this call,
223
00:13:39,300 --> 00:13:41,370
and we're neglecting Natalia.
224
00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,860
The detective for the
Westfield Police Department,
225
00:13:48,060 --> 00:13:49,370
within 10 minutes,
226
00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:51,860
takes a look
at the surroundings,
227
00:13:52,580 --> 00:13:54,170
takes a look at the paperwork,
228
00:13:54,370 --> 00:13:56,550
listens to us speak
for a couple minutes,
229
00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,000
and he immediately realizes
230
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,750
he's not here
to protect Natalia.
231
00:14:04,370 --> 00:14:06,580
He's here to protect my sons.
232
00:14:06,780 --> 00:14:09,170
He knows instantly
they're in grave danger.
233
00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,000
Detective Klaus,
234
00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,650
he conducts an investigation,
he comes back and visits us.
235
00:14:15,370 --> 00:14:16,790
He's got a picture of Natalia
236
00:14:16,990 --> 00:14:20,860
from when she was naturalized
here as a US citizen in 2008,
237
00:14:21,060 --> 00:14:23,310
when she first got here
from the Ukraine.
238
00:14:23,510 --> 00:14:26,580
He's got her naturalization,
uh, information,
239
00:14:26,780 --> 00:14:28,750
basic vital statistics,
stuff like that.
240
00:14:29,860 --> 00:14:32,210
Natalia admitted
to Detective Klaus
241
00:14:32,410 --> 00:14:34,310
that she was told
242
00:14:34,510 --> 00:14:37,170
her new birthday
at the orphanage in Ukraine,
243
00:14:38,580 --> 00:14:41,750
that new birthday being 2003.
244
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:43,790
Another thing,
245
00:14:43,990 --> 00:14:46,580
Detective Klaus showed her
a picture of herself
246
00:14:46,780 --> 00:14:48,170
from when she
entered the country,
247
00:14:49,100 --> 00:14:52,340
but she did not recognize
herself in the picture.
248
00:14:54,060 --> 00:14:55,070
He's not 100% convinced
249
00:14:55,270 --> 00:14:56,930
the girl in the picture
is even her.
250
00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:58,480
Another interesting thing
251
00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,000
he mentions to us
is her height.
252
00:15:01,860 --> 00:15:03,960
Four years ago,
when she was naturalized,
253
00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,380
she hasn't grown a centimeter.
254
00:15:07,580 --> 00:15:09,900
I don't care what kind
of dwarfism you have,
255
00:15:10,100 --> 00:15:12,960
if you're a six-year-old,
you still grow.
256
00:15:14,270 --> 00:15:16,100
He informs us he believes
257
00:15:16,300 --> 00:15:18,550
that her Ukrainian birth
certificate is all bogus.
258
00:15:21,410 --> 00:15:24,000
Here's this business card
to an attorney.
259
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,000
You need to go
to them immediately.
260
00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:27,650
You need to correct her age.
261
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:31,580
What are you talking about?
262
00:15:31,780 --> 00:15:33,960
Correct her age. That's...
263
00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,900
You can't just take an eraser
to her birth certificate.
264
00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:38,210
I'd never heard
of such a thing.
265
00:15:38,410 --> 00:15:40,960
I never... It never even
crossed my mind.
266
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:42,480
I just thought
we have an adult
267
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:44,170
who's masquerading it
as an eight-year-old,
268
00:15:44,370 --> 00:15:45,930
and that's what it is.
269
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:48,900
So, he explains to me,
270
00:15:49,100 --> 00:15:52,000
foreign-born children often
have inaccurate birth records,
271
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:53,690
and sometimes
it needs to be corrected.
272
00:15:53,890 --> 00:15:54,960
This is our
273
00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:57,270
legal recommendation
from the police department.
274
00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:00,760
We have it in writing
from them.
275
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,480
So, the only way to protect
the entire family,
276
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,270
I have to prove she's an adult
277
00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:08,580
and that she definitely has
278
00:16:08,780 --> 00:16:11,030
a fake Ukrainian
birth certificate.
279
00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,000
Kristine and I,
280
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,790
again, we reached out
to the adoption agency.
281
00:16:16,990 --> 00:16:19,690
When we asked them,
"Can you help give us
contact information
282
00:16:19,890 --> 00:16:20,690
for her old family?
283
00:16:20,890 --> 00:16:22,650
We have got to find out
what's going on here,"
284
00:16:23,310 --> 00:16:25,380
they said, "No, we can't."
285
00:16:25,580 --> 00:16:28,860
The answer is always,
"It is a closed adoption.
286
00:16:29,060 --> 00:16:30,580
The other family
does not want
287
00:16:30,780 --> 00:16:33,170
to surrender
any information to you."
288
00:16:33,790 --> 00:16:36,690
It is not until
289
00:16:36,890 --> 00:16:39,380
I got a phone call
from the secretary
of the adoption agency
290
00:16:39,580 --> 00:16:41,380
a little bit later that day,
291
00:16:41,580 --> 00:16:45,550
and she said, "I can't tell
you where she's from,
292
00:16:46,310 --> 00:16:47,750
but check her luggage closer.
293
00:16:50,100 --> 00:16:52,030
Really inspect
those backpacks."
294
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,100
So I go upstairs in the house,
295
00:16:55,300 --> 00:16:57,170
get the backpacks out,
start rummaging through it.
296
00:16:59,790 --> 00:17:02,170
There was a little ID tag
inside of her bag
297
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,170
when we adopted her
298
00:17:04,370 --> 00:17:06,370
that had the original family's
information on it.
299
00:17:07,790 --> 00:17:08,860
What are their names?
300
00:17:10,270 --> 00:17:11,240
Gary and Diane Ciccone.
301
00:17:22,270 --> 00:17:24,170
We know,
according to records that
302
00:17:24,370 --> 00:17:29,580
Natalia starts her early life
in an orphanage in Ukraine.
303
00:17:29,780 --> 00:17:32,170
But all the conflicts
in this case,
304
00:17:32,370 --> 00:17:34,580
boil down to Natalia's age.
305
00:17:34,780 --> 00:17:37,170
Is she a child
or is she an adult?
306
00:17:37,370 --> 00:17:40,270
In 2020,
a Ukrainian investigator
307
00:17:40,470 --> 00:17:43,070
went to track down
Natalia's biological mother,
308
00:17:43,270 --> 00:17:44,380
Anna Gava,
309
00:17:44,580 --> 00:17:47,240
and found Anna Gava's
sister, Tatyana.
310
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:29,070
- Hello.
311
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:38,900
- Anna.
312
00:19:04,470 --> 00:19:05,170
Anna.
313
00:19:08,170 --> 00:19:10,170
This woman, Anna Gava,
314
00:19:10,370 --> 00:19:13,650
who is supposedly
Natalia's biological mother,
315
00:19:13,850 --> 00:19:17,000
just said she's been
going through this saga
316
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:18,650
for 17 years.
317
00:19:18,850 --> 00:19:21,550
Well, she said that in 2020.
318
00:19:22,170 --> 00:19:23,100
Do the math.
319
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:24,690
That means
320
00:19:24,890 --> 00:19:28,070
Natalia may really
have been born in 2003,
321
00:19:28,270 --> 00:19:29,930
which is what
she has said all along.
322
00:19:30,370 --> 00:19:31,930
And in 2008,
323
00:19:32,130 --> 00:19:33,480
Gary and Diane Ciccone,
324
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,240
from New Hampshire
adopted Natalia.
325
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:38,480
By 2009,
326
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:40,900
it's possible that
they found her behavior
327
00:19:41,100 --> 00:19:42,650
to be too hard to manage.
328
00:19:42,850 --> 00:19:46,170
I don't know,
but to Ciccones, it's clear
329
00:19:46,370 --> 00:19:48,070
they wanted to unload her.
330
00:19:48,270 --> 00:19:49,790
Closed adoption
giving virtually
331
00:19:49,990 --> 00:19:51,170
no information about her.
332
00:19:51,370 --> 00:19:52,860
They made a mistake though.
333
00:19:53,060 --> 00:19:55,000
They left their
identifying information
334
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:56,760
on one of the luggage tags.
335
00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,550
So, the Barnett's were able
to track them down.
336
00:20:30,270 --> 00:20:31,760
My name is Judith Irving,
337
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,580
and I'm from
a little town in Indiana.
338
00:20:34,780 --> 00:20:36,070
And, uh...
339
00:20:36,270 --> 00:20:37,480
I— I don't know
what else to say.
340
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:38,930
Okay, can we start over?
341
00:20:39,130 --> 00:20:40,340
I'm so sorry.
342
00:20:40,540 --> 00:20:42,480
Oh, Natalia.
343
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:44,340
The first time
I heard about Natalia,
344
00:20:44,540 --> 00:20:46,930
um, I actually
received an email
345
00:20:47,130 --> 00:20:48,550
from Little People of America.
346
00:20:50,860 --> 00:20:53,380
Little People of America
is an organization
347
00:20:53,580 --> 00:20:56,170
where people with dwarfism
can meet
348
00:20:56,370 --> 00:20:58,170
and come together once a year.
349
00:20:58,370 --> 00:21:00,000
And we're there
for each other,
350
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,650
we help support each other,
we're friends with each other.
351
00:21:02,850 --> 00:21:04,450
It's often where we meet
our husbands,
352
00:21:04,650 --> 00:21:06,480
or wives, or our best friend.
353
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,650
Little people of America
told me that the Ciccones
had adopted a little girl.
354
00:21:09,850 --> 00:21:11,480
She has diastrophic dwarfism
355
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:13,100
and they're trying
to find a home for her.
356
00:21:15,370 --> 00:21:17,070
When I saw her picture,
it was—
357
00:21:17,270 --> 00:21:19,790
I instantly fell in love.
I was like,
358
00:21:19,990 --> 00:21:22,550
"Yeah, this little girl,
Natalia,
359
00:21:22,750 --> 00:21:25,550
she's meant to... She's
meant to be my daughter."
360
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:28,340
I— I heard that she loved
to dance and sing
361
00:21:28,540 --> 00:21:30,860
and be creative,
and I was like...
362
00:21:31,060 --> 00:21:33,240
You know, she's just
meant to be with me.
363
00:21:35,370 --> 00:21:37,580
Dyan and her husband
said that,
364
00:21:37,780 --> 00:21:39,960
"Pay the legal fees
and you can adopt
365
00:21:40,580 --> 00:21:41,650
this little girl."
366
00:21:41,850 --> 00:21:42,860
If I remember right,
367
00:21:43,060 --> 00:21:44,340
she told me that
368
00:21:44,540 --> 00:21:46,070
adoption costs from Ukraine
369
00:21:46,270 --> 00:21:48,070
were around $25,000.
370
00:21:48,270 --> 00:21:50,380
And I find it kinda crazy
371
00:21:50,580 --> 00:21:52,450
that you would adopt a child
372
00:21:52,650 --> 00:21:55,930
and spend $25,000 and only
spend a year with that child?
373
00:21:56,130 --> 00:21:58,930
So, I— I find it odd.
374
00:21:59,130 --> 00:22:01,960
I don't know if there was
a financial scam or not.
375
00:22:04,650 --> 00:22:06,070
My husband decided that
376
00:22:06,270 --> 00:22:08,580
I don't think we can
do this financially.
377
00:22:08,780 --> 00:22:10,760
And I feel like
if you're going to adopt,
378
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,440
both parents have
to be totally into it.
379
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,860
But it broke my heart.
380
00:22:17,060 --> 00:22:20,820
So... Sorry.
It just, uh...
381
00:22:22,100 --> 00:22:24,070
When I wasn't able
to adopt her,
382
00:22:24,270 --> 00:22:26,100
I just wanted her to be happy.
383
00:22:27,170 --> 00:22:27,930
And then
when I found out
384
00:22:28,130 --> 00:22:29,070
what happened to her,
385
00:22:29,270 --> 00:22:31,510
I was like,
"She wasn't happy."
386
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,270
And that was what
broke my heart the most
387
00:22:35,470 --> 00:22:37,340
is that she wasn't happy.
388
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,000
In my heart,
Natalia is the daughter
I never had.
389
00:22:43,270 --> 00:22:47,930
Once we— we told them that
we couldn't adopt Natalia,
390
00:22:48,130 --> 00:22:51,100
they moved on really quickly
to the next couple.
391
00:23:04,750 --> 00:23:06,270
My name is Robyn Farris
392
00:23:06,470 --> 00:23:09,720
and this is my husband,
Dwayne Farris.
393
00:23:12,030 --> 00:23:15,650
Back in 2009,
we received an email
394
00:23:15,850 --> 00:23:17,450
from the Little People
of America
395
00:23:17,650 --> 00:23:19,930
asking us if we might
be interested
396
00:23:20,130 --> 00:23:24,100
in a possible adoption
of a little girl
named Natalia.
397
00:23:25,650 --> 00:23:27,070
And she hooked us up
398
00:23:27,270 --> 00:23:30,580
with the, um, adoptive mom,
Dyan Ciccone.
399
00:23:30,780 --> 00:23:33,170
She had asked us
if we would cover
400
00:23:33,370 --> 00:23:35,340
her previous medical expenses.
401
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,580
So right then and there,
we started to get concerned.
402
00:23:39,780 --> 00:23:42,380
We thought it was
some kind of weird scam
403
00:23:42,580 --> 00:23:43,930
where, you know,
she kinda came across
404
00:23:44,130 --> 00:23:48,170
as a used car salesman
of sorts trying
to "sell" Natalia to us.
405
00:23:49,370 --> 00:23:52,000
So we said, "Heck, no,
we're not gonna do that.
406
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,340
We're not gonna pay
for anything that occurred
in the past."
407
00:23:55,540 --> 00:23:58,270
And I think she harped on it
a little bit.
408
00:23:58,470 --> 00:24:01,480
But then, eventually,
she gave that up.
409
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,580
Another red flag that
we were concerned about
410
00:24:03,780 --> 00:24:07,000
is why Dyan adopted her
411
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:12,240
and so quickly wanted
to basically get rid of her.
412
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,650
We were concerned
about her mental health
413
00:24:16,850 --> 00:24:19,100
coming from an orphanage
in Ukraine.
414
00:24:20,270 --> 00:24:22,170
So we did ask her
if we could
415
00:24:22,370 --> 00:24:24,650
please have
Natalia evaluated,
416
00:24:24,850 --> 00:24:27,380
um, for a psychological
evaluation
417
00:24:27,580 --> 00:24:29,580
to see where
she stood on that.
418
00:24:29,780 --> 00:24:32,000
And, um, Miss Dyan said no.
419
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,930
Why would someone, if they
didn't have anything to hide,
420
00:24:35,130 --> 00:24:37,170
why would they
421
00:24:37,370 --> 00:24:39,760
refuse the psychological
evaluation?
422
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,550
Yeah, definitely shady, weird.
423
00:24:43,750 --> 00:24:46,580
- Um, definitely red flags.
- Mmm-hmm.
424
00:24:46,780 --> 00:24:47,760
But I was still interested.
425
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,240
- I still wanted to pursue.
- Hmm.
426
00:24:51,750 --> 00:24:54,170
So we're driving
to this lake house
in New Hampshire,
427
00:24:54,370 --> 00:24:56,760
where we were meeting
Dyan and Natalia.
428
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,960
And it reminded me
of Camp Crystal Lake.
429
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,550
It was kinda spooky.
430
00:25:03,750 --> 00:25:07,690
He had some concerns
because the driveway
431
00:25:07,890 --> 00:25:09,790
was super steep
and it was gravel.
432
00:25:09,990 --> 00:25:14,170
And us, you know, having
physical disabilities
just like Natalia,
433
00:25:14,370 --> 00:25:15,690
we were wondering, "Wow.
434
00:25:15,890 --> 00:25:18,690
How does she get up
and down the gravel driveway?"
435
00:25:18,890 --> 00:25:21,550
'Cause when we first
saw Natalia,
436
00:25:21,750 --> 00:25:23,170
she didn't have shoes at all.
437
00:25:23,370 --> 00:25:26,000
She has these slippery
braces on her feet.
438
00:25:28,370 --> 00:25:30,000
And if you're stepping
on pebbles,
439
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:31,900
it could definitely
hurt your feet.
440
00:25:32,100 --> 00:25:33,760
So we were just
really surprised
441
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,580
she didn't have any shoes
because you could
442
00:25:36,780 --> 00:25:40,170
fall down the driveway easily
without the proper footing.
443
00:25:43,030 --> 00:25:46,580
But we thought that
she was really adorable.
444
00:25:46,780 --> 00:25:48,340
She was about to turn
six years old
445
00:25:48,540 --> 00:25:51,060
and she definitely
looked her stated age.
446
00:25:51,860 --> 00:25:54,690
But we really
had a feeling that
447
00:25:54,890 --> 00:25:56,930
there was something bad
going on.
448
00:26:04,170 --> 00:26:07,750
We're both Christians
and everybody,
in our opinion,
449
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:09,860
has God given natural gifts
450
00:26:10,060 --> 00:26:13,690
and one of his gifts
is the gift of discernment.
451
00:26:13,890 --> 00:26:16,480
You know, to the regular,
um, average world,
452
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,270
it would just be
more of a sixth sense
or an intuition.
453
00:26:20,470 --> 00:26:24,170
I have a really good
lie detector...
I guess.
454
00:26:24,370 --> 00:26:27,170
But Dyan and Natalia,
455
00:26:27,370 --> 00:26:30,650
I knew that they were lying.
456
00:26:30,850 --> 00:26:33,070
- She was withdrawn and quiet.
- Mmm-hmm.
457
00:26:33,270 --> 00:26:35,170
And didn't engage.
458
00:26:35,370 --> 00:26:37,440
Yeah, she would,
like, look up first
459
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,340
to make sure her
answers were appropriate
460
00:26:42,170 --> 00:26:44,270
- for Dyan.
- And then
you asked her
461
00:26:44,470 --> 00:26:46,860
what the Ukrainian
orphanage was like.
462
00:26:47,060 --> 00:26:49,380
- Oh, yeah, yeah.
- And she
463
00:26:49,580 --> 00:26:52,760
gave an uncoached answer,
it was obvious.
464
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,930
- Yeah,
she said, "It sucked."
- She said, "It sucked."
465
00:26:55,130 --> 00:26:57,070
And then Dyan
interrupted her
466
00:26:57,270 --> 00:26:59,000
and seemed surprised
that she said that
467
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,380
and said, "Oh, no,
it wasn't that bad.
You were fine."
468
00:27:02,580 --> 00:27:06,270
It was almost like Dyan
had to give her approval
469
00:27:06,470 --> 00:27:08,170
- For her to... Yeah.
- ... to come out.
470
00:27:08,370 --> 00:27:10,480
And then as soon as she said
what she was coached to say,
471
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:11,550
she went back in.
472
00:27:11,750 --> 00:27:15,170
I've never seen
another person do that.
473
00:27:15,370 --> 00:27:16,580
- Even in movies.
- Yeah.
474
00:27:16,780 --> 00:27:18,340
Even in The Exorcist.
475
00:27:19,750 --> 00:27:21,100
It scared the
out of me.
476
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,650
I can feel evil
when I come into her room.
477
00:27:28,860 --> 00:27:31,580
I couldn't really put
my finger on whether
478
00:27:31,780 --> 00:27:34,270
it was the situation
that was evil
479
00:27:34,470 --> 00:27:36,690
or Natalia,
480
00:27:36,890 --> 00:27:39,070
there was something
wrong with her.
481
00:27:39,270 --> 00:27:41,340
And I think
that's the first time
482
00:27:41,540 --> 00:27:45,170
I've ever completely
trusted that intuition.
483
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,860
Right then is when
I made the decision
484
00:28:04,750 --> 00:28:06,480
that we— this was
not gonna happen.
485
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,930
As— as hard as it was
to make that decision
486
00:28:09,130 --> 00:28:11,480
'cause I knew how it was
going to affect you...
487
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,170
And when I told you,
I was like, there's...
488
00:28:13,370 --> 00:28:15,170
I can't put my finger on it
489
00:28:15,370 --> 00:28:16,760
but there's something wrong.
490
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,690
When you called Dyan
to tell her we weren't
coming back,
491
00:28:19,890 --> 00:28:20,750
then...
492
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,270
the story just got crazier.
493
00:28:23,470 --> 00:28:24,860
'Cause she went
494
00:28:26,370 --> 00:28:28,000
ballistic on the phone.
495
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,340
She was furious.
496
00:28:30,540 --> 00:28:32,930
I could hear her
through the phone yelling.
497
00:28:33,130 --> 00:28:36,000
- And so I was like, "Okay."
- Yeah.
498
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,580
We need to go, like,
there was no telling what
she was gonna do.
499
00:28:38,780 --> 00:28:40,650
I mean, she went nuts.
500
00:28:49,550 --> 00:28:51,340
Kristine Barnett
501
00:28:51,540 --> 00:28:53,790
tried to contact me
on Facebook
502
00:28:53,990 --> 00:28:56,690
not long after
they adopted Natalia.
503
00:28:56,890 --> 00:28:59,200
And I wouldn't—
wouldn't talk to her.
504
00:29:00,550 --> 00:29:02,450
And I knew that
things were not right.
505
00:29:02,650 --> 00:29:04,790
I don't know if she's trying
to get me on her side
506
00:29:04,990 --> 00:29:08,030
or— or what she's trying
to do. I don't—
I don't know.
507
00:29:08,790 --> 00:29:10,270
But it's...
508
00:29:10,470 --> 00:29:13,480
I'm— I'm not going
to entertain
509
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:15,240
even saying hello to her.
510
00:29:16,580 --> 00:29:20,690
The Barnetts claim that
Natalia had threatened them.
511
00:29:20,890 --> 00:29:22,900
So what if— even
if she did threaten you?
512
00:29:23,100 --> 00:29:23,900
You're the parent.
513
00:29:24,100 --> 00:29:25,960
I've— I'm a teacher.
I have 600 students.
514
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,340
Some of those are from
really rough families.
515
00:29:28,540 --> 00:29:30,580
You know, and I've been told,
516
00:29:30,780 --> 00:29:31,960
"I'm gonna cut you up."
517
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,140
I've been told,
"I'm gonna drink your blood."
518
00:29:34,340 --> 00:29:37,550
Uh, I've been told all kinds
of weird stuff.
519
00:29:37,750 --> 00:29:42,200
But I'm not truly scared
that that's gonna happen.
520
00:29:42,890 --> 00:29:44,690
That child needs help.
521
00:29:44,890 --> 00:29:46,690
So you get that child help.
522
00:29:46,890 --> 00:29:51,450
So yeah, I find actually
being scared of a child, um,
523
00:29:51,650 --> 00:29:54,140
when you're a full-size
grown adult,
524
00:29:54,340 --> 00:29:55,720
a little ridiculous.
525
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,480
So I started posting
on an adoption message board
526
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,240
asking about
527
00:30:03,890 --> 00:30:06,790
if anybody had any experience
of a Natalia.
528
00:30:06,990 --> 00:30:09,140
What was it, like,
a year later,
529
00:30:09,340 --> 00:30:12,450
that Michael Barnett
emailed me out of the blue
530
00:30:12,650 --> 00:30:17,030
and said, "I think
we adopted the little girl
you were talking about."
531
00:30:17,230 --> 00:30:19,960
And he started to...
Said her name, Natalia,
532
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,030
- some other things.
I was like, "Yep, that's her."
- Yeah.
533
00:30:23,230 --> 00:30:25,790
Kristine, his wife,
wanted to talk to you.
534
00:30:25,990 --> 00:30:28,790
Kristine and I kept in touch
over Facebook Messenger
535
00:30:28,990 --> 00:30:29,960
for several years.
536
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,510
It did seem like a lot
of shady stuff going on.
537
00:30:34,890 --> 00:30:36,720
Michael and Kristine Barnett,
I mean,
538
00:30:37,270 --> 00:30:38,960
they lied a lot.
539
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,060
They will do anything
to get what they want.
540
00:30:42,270 --> 00:30:44,510
They lie about Natalia
being violent.
541
00:30:45,580 --> 00:30:48,170
You just don't know
the true Barnetts.
542
00:30:48,370 --> 00:30:51,030
When Kristine started
telling us all these
crazy stories,
543
00:30:51,230 --> 00:30:53,200
we thought, "Wait a minute."
544
00:30:54,170 --> 00:30:56,450
I mean, she's tiny.
545
00:30:56,650 --> 00:30:59,060
- Yeah.
- These stories
don't make sense.
546
00:30:59,790 --> 00:31:02,580
So we started
figuring it out that
547
00:31:02,780 --> 00:31:05,550
everything Kristine told us
wasn't the truth.
548
00:31:05,750 --> 00:31:08,960
Kristine was
using me and Dwayne
549
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,450
because if she could
get us on her side
550
00:31:12,650 --> 00:31:16,030
believing, you know,
that Natalia had issues,
551
00:31:16,230 --> 00:31:19,440
then she would feel justified
in maybe getting rid of her.
552
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,030
Michael and Kristine Barnett
553
00:31:23,230 --> 00:31:26,690
not only lied to get her
554
00:31:26,890 --> 00:31:30,440
into their family, but they
also lied to get rid of her.
555
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,070
If they wanted to claim
she's older than what she is,
556
00:31:36,270 --> 00:31:38,140
I mean, I don't know
where they came up with that.
557
00:31:38,340 --> 00:31:39,380
That's just crazy.
558
00:31:39,580 --> 00:31:41,130
Like, who thinks of that?
559
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:44,450
Detective Clouse
had told me,
560
00:31:44,650 --> 00:31:46,140
"You need
to correct her age.
561
00:31:46,340 --> 00:31:49,860
This is our legal
recommendation
from the police department."
562
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,790
I am attaching
a picture presumably
563
00:32:16,990 --> 00:32:19,340
taken at entry
into United States.
564
00:32:36,370 --> 00:32:39,270
A home study report
was prepared
565
00:32:39,470 --> 00:32:41,900
about the Barnetts,
early 2010,
566
00:32:42,100 --> 00:32:44,070
by a licensed social worker.
567
00:32:44,270 --> 00:32:45,960
One section that
I found very troubling,
568
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,450
and it's the background
information.
569
00:32:48,650 --> 00:32:51,790
The worker asked
Michael and Kristine
570
00:32:51,990 --> 00:32:54,900
if they had ever had
any domestic violence
571
00:32:55,100 --> 00:32:57,440
or disturbances at home
and they both said no.
572
00:32:58,060 --> 00:33:00,550
The state took
their word for it.
573
00:33:00,750 --> 00:33:03,900
Th—they relied
on the self-reporting.
574
00:33:04,100 --> 00:33:06,170
They should have gone
to the local police
to see if their names
575
00:33:06,370 --> 00:33:08,550
ever appeared
because they would
have found
576
00:33:08,750 --> 00:33:09,620
domestic violence
577
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:11,860
in 2003,
578
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:17,130
years before this
home study evaluation.
579
00:33:18,370 --> 00:33:19,550
They're fighting.
580
00:33:19,750 --> 00:33:21,550
Michael's got Kristine
in a headlock.
581
00:33:23,060 --> 00:33:24,960
And then he's pushed her.
582
00:33:28,550 --> 00:33:30,960
These are situations
that are pretty serious.
583
00:33:32,650 --> 00:33:34,580
Scary, you know, to think
of what could have been
584
00:33:34,780 --> 00:33:37,240
and what all the evil,
dark secrets
585
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,750
are that we don't even know
that her coming to light.
586
00:33:42,370 --> 00:33:45,480
It really doesn't
shock me that Michael
and Kristine have
587
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,960
kept some of these
family secrets secret.
588
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,550
This is not the public
persona they want to have.
589
00:33:55,170 --> 00:33:56,690
Every now and then,
590
00:33:56,890 --> 00:33:59,580
Michael and Kristine would
be in the front yard arguing
591
00:33:59,780 --> 00:34:00,900
or fighting,
592
00:34:01,100 --> 00:34:02,900
or... There was no—
I never saw anything physical.
593
00:34:03,100 --> 00:34:04,960
It was just the yelling
and the screaming.
594
00:34:06,790 --> 00:34:08,140
I felt sorry for Michael
595
00:34:08,340 --> 00:34:11,170
because she was degrading him
596
00:34:11,370 --> 00:34:13,270
and calling him a loser
and a jerk.
597
00:34:13,470 --> 00:34:15,960
And I just was like,
"God, that poor guy."
598
00:34:19,890 --> 00:34:22,480
I've been fooled
by thinking that
they were the perfect family,
599
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,620
because I don't think
they were the perfect family.
600
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,900
There were
a number of allegations
601
00:35:05,100 --> 00:35:07,140
that Michael and Kristine
made about Natalia
602
00:35:07,340 --> 00:35:09,690
acting out in a violent way.
603
00:35:09,890 --> 00:35:12,380
Most of them happened
within the home,
604
00:35:12,580 --> 00:35:15,140
but the bottom line
is every incident
605
00:35:15,340 --> 00:35:17,030
was told from
the Barnetts' perspective.
606
00:35:17,230 --> 00:35:20,380
But the last one
was different.
607
00:35:20,580 --> 00:35:24,030
The Traders Point Creamery
incident had witnesses.
608
00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:26,140
I'm Chris.
609
00:35:26,340 --> 00:35:27,930
I worked at Traders
Point Creamery
610
00:35:28,130 --> 00:35:32,650
as a herdsman
from 2012 to 2015.
611
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,650
Uh, so I had gotten a call
612
00:35:37,850 --> 00:35:41,650
that there was some crisis
on the electric fence.
613
00:35:41,850 --> 00:35:43,790
Officers were called
and that we needed
614
00:35:43,990 --> 00:35:47,550
to take them down to where,
uh, the individual was.
615
00:35:50,130 --> 00:35:51,690
So I was under
the impression that
616
00:35:51,890 --> 00:35:54,030
when we got down there,
that there was going to be
617
00:35:54,230 --> 00:35:56,070
uh, a little person who was,
618
00:35:56,270 --> 00:35:58,380
um, distressed, um,
619
00:35:58,580 --> 00:36:01,900
very emotional. When
we get down there, um,
620
00:36:02,100 --> 00:36:04,380
the caretaker seemed
to be the one
621
00:36:04,580 --> 00:36:06,650
who was the emotional one
of the two.
622
00:36:08,340 --> 00:36:10,690
And the little person
seemed to be more calm
623
00:36:10,890 --> 00:36:13,030
and rational about
the whole situation.
624
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,240
There was no mention
of, uh, the caretaker
625
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,310
being at risk
or anything like that.
626
00:36:20,340 --> 00:36:21,900
Natalia had been trying
to pull Kristine
627
00:36:22,100 --> 00:36:23,270
into the electric fence.
628
00:36:23,470 --> 00:36:25,030
She'd been
screaming out loud,
629
00:36:25,230 --> 00:36:26,690
bitch,
I'm gonna kill you.
630
00:36:26,890 --> 00:36:29,100
I am going to kill you,
you bitch. You're gonna die."
631
00:36:32,370 --> 00:36:33,310
So, uh,
632
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,030
I was there with,
uh, the officer.
633
00:36:36,230 --> 00:36:38,480
I don't remember
any of that being said.
634
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,140
I don't remember
there being any threats
635
00:36:41,340 --> 00:36:43,690
about being, "I'm going
to kill you,"
636
00:36:43,890 --> 00:36:45,170
or anything like that.
637
00:36:45,370 --> 00:36:48,580
I just felt like the situation
had kinda been overblown
638
00:36:48,780 --> 00:36:50,900
and it was not really
that big of a deal.
639
00:36:51,100 --> 00:36:52,900
Like, I have
a fairly good memory
640
00:36:53,100 --> 00:36:56,170
and I am positive
I would remember that.
641
00:37:00,130 --> 00:37:02,380
The biggest thing
I remember is thinking that
642
00:37:02,580 --> 00:37:05,900
if I had to deal
with the adult caretaker,
643
00:37:06,100 --> 00:37:08,930
that, uh, I would be
really frustrated,
644
00:37:09,130 --> 00:37:11,030
uh, just
because it felt like
645
00:37:11,230 --> 00:37:13,930
she seemed to be making
the situation worse.
646
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:16,930
My name's Mark Hostetler
647
00:37:17,130 --> 00:37:20,140
and at Traders Point,
I was the farm manager.
648
00:37:20,340 --> 00:37:22,760
I got a phone call from
one of my employees
649
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:24,380
saying, "Hey,
we've got an issue.
650
00:37:24,580 --> 00:37:27,000
There's somebody
on the walking trail.
They're having a crisis.
651
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,690
What should we do?
Can you turn the fence off?"
652
00:37:29,890 --> 00:37:32,140
Or is it dangerous,
was also the question.
653
00:37:32,340 --> 00:37:34,580
And both the answers
I should say were, uh,
654
00:37:34,780 --> 00:37:36,240
"No, it's—
it's not dangerous."
655
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,140
And also, "No, I can't
turn it off 'cause it's
already off, I think."
656
00:37:39,340 --> 00:37:40,900
That section of fence
isn't even on today
657
00:37:41,100 --> 00:37:43,170
because the cows are
in a different part
of the— the farm.
658
00:37:43,370 --> 00:37:46,580
And so my response was
maybe a little callous.
659
00:37:46,780 --> 00:37:49,750
But mostly
because the threat
was so hollow.
660
00:37:53,130 --> 00:37:54,170
I can't imagine
661
00:37:54,370 --> 00:37:56,200
taking a child's threats,
662
00:37:57,130 --> 00:37:59,270
like, so seriously.
663
00:37:59,470 --> 00:38:02,310
Being truly scared.
Now, you could take
their threats serious,
664
00:38:02,890 --> 00:38:04,690
but we're not even
super strong.
665
00:38:04,890 --> 00:38:06,270
We're diastrophics.
666
00:38:06,470 --> 00:38:07,380
We have joint problems.
667
00:38:07,580 --> 00:38:09,650
We have all kinds of issues
that would make it
668
00:38:09,850 --> 00:38:12,790
difficult for us to truly
overcome someone.
669
00:38:12,990 --> 00:38:16,070
We don't have the capability
of truly hurting an adult.
670
00:38:16,270 --> 00:38:19,000
You know, unless, you know,
there was firearms involved.
671
00:38:21,370 --> 00:38:22,960
But someone like me,
672
00:38:23,790 --> 00:38:25,270
I couldn't damage an adult.
673
00:38:25,470 --> 00:38:26,650
They could just hold me off.
674
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,690
If Michael's version
of what happened
675
00:38:33,890 --> 00:38:36,650
at Traders Point Creamery
is not true,
676
00:38:37,580 --> 00:38:40,270
that Natalia really did not
try to push her
677
00:38:40,470 --> 00:38:42,270
into an electric fence
and "kill her,"
678
00:38:42,470 --> 00:38:45,140
then it casts doubt
on all the other allegations
679
00:38:45,340 --> 00:38:47,380
of Natalia's acting out
680
00:38:47,580 --> 00:38:50,580
that Michael and Kristine
have reported.
681
00:38:50,780 --> 00:38:53,140
I don't know though
that anyone can get
to the truth here
682
00:38:53,340 --> 00:38:55,480
because there
are so many stories
683
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:56,960
from everybody.
684
00:38:59,270 --> 00:39:00,170
For example,
685
00:39:00,370 --> 00:39:02,030
Michael's version
of what happened here
686
00:39:02,230 --> 00:39:04,340
is not necessarily reliable.
687
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,270
At the Traders Point incident,
how did the police react?
688
00:39:11,470 --> 00:39:12,170
I don't know.
689
00:39:12,370 --> 00:39:14,860
My— My sons and I
were out in the forest.
690
00:39:15,060 --> 00:39:18,140
We... When we saw
the police lights had arrived,
691
00:39:18,340 --> 00:39:20,380
we still had a good mile,
mile and a half
692
00:39:20,580 --> 00:39:22,380
of running through a forest
693
00:39:22,580 --> 00:39:25,030
to get back on the path
to get back up there.
694
00:39:25,230 --> 00:39:28,760
So by the time all four of us
get all the way back up there,
695
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:30,480
Natalia's already gone.
696
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:32,900
The officer with her
is already gone.
697
00:39:33,100 --> 00:39:35,550
I don't speak to the officers,
I speak to my wife.
698
00:39:38,370 --> 00:39:39,480
We keep going, we keep going.
699
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,550
We're about 40, 50 yards down,
I start hearing screaming.
700
00:39:45,170 --> 00:39:46,790
I turn to look.
701
00:39:46,990 --> 00:39:50,930
Natalia and Kristine
are in a physical altercation.
702
00:39:51,130 --> 00:39:54,030
It looks like Natalia's
trying to pull Kristine.
703
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,380
Look, I don't know
what the truth is,
704
00:40:00,580 --> 00:40:03,380
but this raises
a question in my mind
705
00:40:03,580 --> 00:40:06,270
of whether or not
Michael and Kristine
706
00:40:06,470 --> 00:40:07,860
kinda orchestrated
707
00:40:08,060 --> 00:40:11,070
the Traders Point
Creamery incident.
708
00:40:11,270 --> 00:40:14,270
They wanted
an outside incident
709
00:40:14,470 --> 00:40:17,030
where there would be
you know, some
710
00:40:17,230 --> 00:40:19,240
potential witnesses maybe,
711
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,170
uh, and she would be
taken away
712
00:40:22,370 --> 00:40:23,650
for good this time.
713
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:37,550
Okay.
714
00:40:53,030 --> 00:40:54,030
- Yes.
- Okay.
715
00:40:58,370 --> 00:40:59,270
Yes.
716
00:41:08,790 --> 00:41:09,650
Mmm-hmm.
717
00:41:57,370 --> 00:41:58,310
Mmm-hmm.
718
00:42:05,100 --> 00:42:06,480
The closer you look
719
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:08,240
into this case and dig,
720
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,100
the harder it is to know
where the truth lies.
721
00:42:14,270 --> 00:42:15,170
Maybe there's more than
one villain in this story.
50977
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