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(Man) They don't like
my coming over here.
4
00:00:36,706 --> 00:00:39,664
I've come over here
as a visitor.
5
00:00:39,664 --> 00:00:40,581
For about three weeks.
6
00:00:40,581 --> 00:00:41,539
I've got my parents over here.
7
00:00:41,539 --> 00:00:44,749
I've got my brothers over here,
sisters over here.
8
00:00:44,749 --> 00:00:45,624
And what happened exactly?
9
00:00:45,624 --> 00:00:48,206
What happened when you got
to Heathrow Airport?
10
00:00:48,206 --> 00:00:49,082
They've only one attitude.
11
00:00:49,082 --> 00:00:51,248
They're not interested
in people coming over here,
12
00:00:51,248 --> 00:00:53,749
whether as a visitor
or as an immigrant
13
00:00:53,749 --> 00:00:55,415
or as any damn thing.
14
00:00:55,415 --> 00:00:58,248
If they wanted me to be
a visitor over here
15
00:00:58,248 --> 00:00:59,041
like I requested them,
16
00:00:59,041 --> 00:01:00,749
I've got enough
of friends to prove
17
00:01:00,749 --> 00:01:02,415
that I am a genuine visitor
over here.
18
00:01:02,415 --> 00:01:05,415
I've got a brother
who is here for last about...
19
00:01:05,415 --> 00:01:06,248
seven to eight years.
20
00:01:06,248 --> 00:01:09,041
I'd never seen him.
I left him as a baby over here.
21
00:01:09,041 --> 00:01:12,749
And there I am now over here,
I just can't meet him.
22
00:01:12,749 --> 00:01:15,791
I can't see my house
where my people live.
23
00:01:15,791 --> 00:01:17,499
I exercise the benefit
of the doubt
24
00:01:17,499 --> 00:01:20,708
more than any other minister
that we've ever had
25
00:01:20,708 --> 00:01:22,499
in charge of immigration.
26
00:01:22,499 --> 00:01:24,416
But if we did it
in every single case
27
00:01:24,416 --> 00:01:26,750
there wouldn't be
immigration control.
28
00:01:26,750 --> 00:01:28,291
Anybody could come in.
29
00:01:28,291 --> 00:01:30,042
Now, the fact
of the matter is
30
00:01:30,042 --> 00:01:31,750
that there's a serious pressure
31
00:01:31,750 --> 00:01:33,916
to come and settle
in this country
32
00:01:33,916 --> 00:01:37,042
from certain areas
of the Commonwealth.
33
00:01:37,042 --> 00:01:37,833
It's irrefutable.
34
00:01:37,833 --> 00:01:42,833
If... When I was in Bangladesh
at the beginning of the year,
35
00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:44,625
I went into one village
36
00:01:44,625 --> 00:01:46,416
and I said to the men
in the village,
37
00:01:46,416 --> 00:01:48,043
"How many people here
would like
38
00:01:48,043 --> 00:01:50,084
"to come and live in England?"
39
00:01:50,084 --> 00:01:51,043
He said, "The whole village."
40
00:01:51,043 --> 00:01:54,959
The fact of the matter is
there is a substantial pressure
41
00:01:54,959 --> 00:01:56,959
and we cannot take them all,
42
00:01:56,959 --> 00:02:01,375
and therefore a control system
has to be applied.
43
00:02:01,375 --> 00:02:02,500
Now, once you get to that stage,
44
00:02:02,500 --> 00:02:06,375
there are difficult problems
when you get to the borderline.
45
00:02:06,375 --> 00:02:09,208
There are some cases
that are absolutely plain.
46
00:02:09,208 --> 00:02:11,375
But there are some cases
when you're on the borderline.
47
00:02:11,375 --> 00:02:14,626
You're not absolutely sure
one way or the other.
48
00:02:14,626 --> 00:02:17,084
And we do exercise
the benefit of the doubt
49
00:02:17,084 --> 00:02:19,084
in a great many cases,
50
00:02:19,084 --> 00:02:21,710
and sometimes
we make mistakes.
51
00:02:21,710 --> 00:02:24,877
That has to be the case
in any human system.
52
00:02:24,877 --> 00:02:29,293
Now, what I am anxious to do is
to limit the number of mistakes
53
00:02:29,293 --> 00:02:33,752
and particularly to limit
any kind of suggestion
54
00:02:33,752 --> 00:02:36,543
that the motivation is wrong,
55
00:02:36,543 --> 00:02:39,668
that it should be racialist
or restrictive
56
00:02:39,668 --> 00:02:44,251
or in some other way seeking
to frustrate the rights
57
00:02:44,251 --> 00:02:46,918
of those who have to come.
58
00:02:56,793 --> 00:02:59,086
Can I speak to extension 2-6...
59
00:02:59,086 --> 00:03:00,586
You're the Home Office,
aren't you?
60
00:03:00,586 --> 00:03:01,961
(Woman) 'That's right.'
61
00:03:01,961 --> 00:03:03,669
2-6-2-2.
62
00:03:03,669 --> 00:03:05,878
'Right.'
63
00:03:09,836 --> 00:03:10,586
(Man) '2-6-2-2?'
64
00:03:10,586 --> 00:03:12,461
- Mr Potts?
- 'Speaking.'
65
00:03:12,461 --> 00:03:15,045
Mr Potts, good morning.
Mr Davis.
66
00:03:15,045 --> 00:03:16,377
'Mr Davis, yes?'
67
00:03:16,377 --> 00:03:17,461
You got a minute to spare?
68
00:03:17,461 --> 00:03:20,169
'Not really, no.
I'm very busy, I'm afraid.'
69
00:03:20,169 --> 00:03:20,836
You're very busy?
70
00:03:20,836 --> 00:03:23,252
'I'm going to put you onto
the telephone enquiry bureau...'
71
00:03:23,252 --> 00:03:26,420
No, no, no, no, no!
This is very important,
72
00:03:26,420 --> 00:03:29,754
- and before I...
- 'I'm very sorry, Mr Davis,
73
00:03:29,754 --> 00:03:31,420
'but if you want to ask me
a question,
74
00:03:31,420 --> 00:03:34,295
'I suggest that you ring
the telephone enquiry line...'
75
00:03:34,295 --> 00:03:36,004
But this concerns you...
76
00:03:36,004 --> 00:03:38,337
This concerns you
and a letter you wrote to me.
77
00:03:38,337 --> 00:03:39,295
'I'm sure it does concern me,
78
00:03:39,295 --> 00:03:42,545
'but I just do not have time
to deal with it at the moment,
79
00:03:42,545 --> 00:03:44,795
'and I suggest you ring
the telephone enquiry...'
80
00:03:44,795 --> 00:03:48,879
Mr Potts, I suggest you change
your name to Mr Schmuck.
81
00:03:48,879 --> 00:03:50,128
That's what I suggest.
82
00:03:50,128 --> 00:03:52,962
'You do that,
Mr Reuben Davis.'
83
00:03:52,962 --> 00:03:54,754
(Click)
84
00:03:54,754 --> 00:03:56,587
That's it.
85
00:03:56,587 --> 00:03:59,088
Mr Potts. You know him?
86
00:03:59,088 --> 00:04:00,421
(Woman) 'He's one of the...
87
00:04:00,421 --> 00:04:04,296
'um... officers in one of our
case-working groups, I think.'
88
00:04:04,296 --> 00:04:09,296
Yeah, well, Mr Potts
refused to vary her leave.
89
00:04:09,713 --> 00:04:10,171
'Mm-hm?'
90
00:04:10,171 --> 00:04:12,588
And to give her
a right of abode.
91
00:04:12,588 --> 00:04:13,047
'Mm.'
92
00:04:13,047 --> 00:04:16,755
And the next thing I have here,
I wrote again,
93
00:04:16,755 --> 00:04:19,755
because I thought
he must have made a mistake.
94
00:04:19,755 --> 00:04:21,588
Now, this old lady,
she can't have any children.
95
00:04:21,588 --> 00:04:24,463
She's 68 years of age.
She can't breed any kids.
96
00:04:24,463 --> 00:04:27,671
You should give her
a bit of rest and peace.
97
00:04:27,671 --> 00:04:28,129
'Mm.'
98
00:04:28,129 --> 00:04:30,589
And I've got this letter
from him.
99
00:04:30,589 --> 00:04:31,048
'Mm?'
100
00:04:31,048 --> 00:04:34,922
"Dear sir,
re. Mrs Eleni Charalambous.
101
00:04:34,922 --> 00:04:37,881
"I refer to the appeal
made by the above name
102
00:04:37,881 --> 00:04:40,255
"against the Secretary
of State's decision
103
00:04:40,255 --> 00:04:41,756
"to refuse her request
to be allowed
104
00:04:41,756 --> 00:04:43,964
"to remain permanently
in the United Kingdom.
105
00:04:43,964 --> 00:04:46,339
"Taking all the facts
into consideration,
106
00:04:46,339 --> 00:04:50,048
"it has been decided
to maintain the refusal."
107
00:04:50,048 --> 00:04:53,213
Now, I'm sure that
the Secretary of State
108
00:04:53,213 --> 00:04:54,213
has personally...
109
00:04:54,213 --> 00:04:56,672
if he was personally involved,
he would go mad.
110
00:04:56,672 --> 00:04:59,589
I know that because I know
he's a man of compassion,
111
00:04:59,589 --> 00:05:03,340
and I know he wouldn't treat
the widows of British soldiers
112
00:05:03,340 --> 00:05:04,673
like this in this manner.
113
00:05:04,673 --> 00:05:09,673
But I'm sure... Mr Potts, I
don't know why he refused this.
114
00:05:10,090 --> 00:05:11,923
Now, could I take it
to somebody else?
115
00:05:11,923 --> 00:05:14,173
Because if it goes
to an appeal court,
116
00:05:14,173 --> 00:05:16,798
you'll be the laughing stock
of everybody.
117
00:05:16,798 --> 00:05:18,590
It'll be disgraceful, inhumane,
118
00:05:18,590 --> 00:05:20,632
and the British people
are not inhumane.
119
00:05:20,632 --> 00:05:25,632
Your mother has the right
to have abode in this country.
120
00:05:26,923 --> 00:05:27,423
Yes?
121
00:05:27,423 --> 00:05:29,673
But unfortunately
in the Home Office
122
00:05:29,673 --> 00:05:32,256
they have a lot
of young boys and girls
123
00:05:32,256 --> 00:05:33,590
- working there...
- (Barber) Yes?
124
00:05:33,590 --> 00:05:34,673
...who don't know
the difference
125
00:05:34,673 --> 00:05:36,758
between arsehole time
and breakfast time.
126
00:05:36,758 --> 00:05:41,215
They make decisions on behalf
of the Secretary of State.
127
00:05:41,215 --> 00:05:44,424
The Secretary of State,
he doesn't know what's going on.
128
00:05:44,424 --> 00:05:48,341
I'm sure the Home Secretary,
he knows about this case,
129
00:05:48,341 --> 00:05:51,424
or the Minister, Mr Alex Lyon,
130
00:05:51,424 --> 00:05:54,174
he'll have no difficulty.
131
00:05:54,174 --> 00:05:57,716
At the moment
we're waiting for an appeal.
132
00:05:57,716 --> 00:05:58,716
We have the right of appeal,
133
00:05:58,716 --> 00:06:01,507
and when the appeal comes,
then we'll see.
134
00:06:01,507 --> 00:06:01,924
Yes.
135
00:06:01,924 --> 00:06:03,341
Before she came here,
where was she?
136
00:06:03,341 --> 00:06:08,216
She was used to live in the
camp, in the tent, you know?
137
00:06:08,884 --> 00:06:09,717
And, er...
138
00:06:09,717 --> 00:06:11,175
(Mr Davis) That's why
the Home Office
139
00:06:11,175 --> 00:06:14,092
didn't want to send her back
in the tent.
140
00:06:14,092 --> 00:06:15,009
(Barber laughs)
141
00:06:15,009 --> 00:06:18,258
Not going to have an abortion,
is she, or anything?
142
00:06:18,258 --> 00:06:20,300
Not going to have a baby,
is she?
143
00:06:20,300 --> 00:06:22,342
No, no, no.
144
00:06:22,342 --> 00:06:22,800
Jesus.
145
00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,258
(Mr Davis) That's why
they send them back, you see.
146
00:06:25,258 --> 00:06:26,051
Send young girls back
147
00:06:26,051 --> 00:06:28,175
or women back who are
gonna have abortions,
148
00:06:28,175 --> 00:06:29,759
- free medical treatment.
- Nice.
149
00:06:29,759 --> 00:06:33,342
She's almost 70 now,
you know.
150
00:06:33,342 --> 00:06:34,342
Well, they're mad up there.
151
00:06:34,342 --> 00:06:37,425
They're mad
up in the Home Office.
152
00:06:37,425 --> 00:06:38,092
Stark raving mad.
153
00:06:38,092 --> 00:06:42,718
Old lady, she wants somebody
to look after her, you know?
154
00:06:42,718 --> 00:06:43,801
Peace and quiet.
155
00:06:43,801 --> 00:06:44,551
Is she a good cook?
156
00:06:44,551 --> 00:06:46,968
Er, in my... yes.
Is very good cook.
157
00:06:46,968 --> 00:06:49,635
All right, then.
I'm looking for a good cook.
158
00:06:49,635 --> 00:06:53,217
So even if I marry her myself,
she'll stay in the country.
159
00:06:53,217 --> 00:06:54,676
All right, then, Mr Davis.
160
00:06:54,676 --> 00:06:56,010
- All right?
- Thank you very much.
161
00:06:56,010 --> 00:06:58,843
So you'll be... What will you
be? You won't be my father.
162
00:06:58,843 --> 00:07:01,676
You'll be my uncle,
won't you, or something?
163
00:07:01,676 --> 00:07:04,301
All right. Bye-bye, anyway.
164
00:07:04,301 --> 00:07:06,760
- Bye-bye. Adio.
- Adio.
165
00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:08,801
Adio. Bye.
166
00:07:08,801 --> 00:07:11,760
Thank you very much.
Bye-bye, Mr Davis.
167
00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,260
(They murmur)
168
00:07:14,260 --> 00:07:17,385
(Woman murmurs)
169
00:07:20,218 --> 00:07:21,344
OK, thank you.
170
00:07:21,344 --> 00:07:22,761
(Speaks Italian)
171
00:07:22,761 --> 00:07:25,510
Bye-bye. Thank you.
172
00:07:28,677 --> 00:07:30,844
(Mr Davis)
Yeah, are you the CIO?
173
00:07:30,844 --> 00:07:34,761
I have... My name is Mr Davis,
Reuben Davis.
174
00:07:34,761 --> 00:07:37,094
And I have some
very distressed people
175
00:07:37,094 --> 00:07:39,094
in my office at the moment.
176
00:07:39,094 --> 00:07:42,552
It appears that they have
their little sister...
177
00:07:42,552 --> 00:07:46,637
She came here last night.
Only a child of 14.
178
00:07:46,637 --> 00:07:49,511
And you've locked her up.
179
00:07:49,803 --> 00:07:53,219
I'd like to know
what it's all about.
180
00:07:53,219 --> 00:07:55,887
Well, I've made
the arrangements today.
181
00:07:55,887 --> 00:07:56,845
I'm making arrangements now,
182
00:07:56,845 --> 00:08:01,845
and I'm getting her into
the Cambridge School of English.
183
00:08:02,178 --> 00:08:04,261
Yes.
184
00:08:04,261 --> 00:08:06,845
Yes, I will, but I don't
want this child detained.
185
00:08:06,845 --> 00:08:11,845
She's only a baby. You can't
lock up young kids of 14.
186
00:08:14,678 --> 00:08:18,345
I can't dictate to you?
No, I'm not dictating to you.
187
00:08:18,345 --> 00:08:20,512
It's... But it's inhumane,
what you're doing.
188
00:08:20,512 --> 00:08:24,596
A young child of 14 years
of age came alone
189
00:08:24,596 --> 00:08:26,137
and you just lock her up.
190
00:08:26,137 --> 00:08:29,596
Surely, you have the power
to release her
191
00:08:29,596 --> 00:08:31,888
in the custody of her sister?
192
00:08:31,888 --> 00:08:34,846
And please can we see her,
Mr Davis?
193
00:08:34,846 --> 00:08:39,471
(Mr Davis) Well, why don't
you wish to exercise it?
194
00:08:39,596 --> 00:08:41,846
Where is she at the moment?
195
00:08:41,846 --> 00:08:45,055
In Harmondsworth Detention...
A young girl on her own?
196
00:08:45,055 --> 00:08:50,055
With all those different people
in here in Harmondsworth?
197
00:08:53,889 --> 00:08:57,639
What's that?
For people coming on holidays?
198
00:08:57,639 --> 00:09:00,722
Is that what it's for?
199
00:09:05,430 --> 00:09:08,221
And that's where she...
You sound... you...
200
00:09:08,221 --> 00:09:10,221
Excuse me if I may say so,
201
00:09:10,221 --> 00:09:12,930
are you a Pakistani
immigration officer?
202
00:09:12,930 --> 00:09:15,972
You sound as if you've got
a foreign accent.
203
00:09:15,972 --> 00:09:18,430
I can't hear you very well.
204
00:09:18,430 --> 00:09:20,764
Can't understand you.
205
00:09:22,639 --> 00:09:24,139
I'm not being abusive at all.
206
00:09:24,139 --> 00:09:28,098
I know you've got
Mr Chirin Gheling there
207
00:09:28,098 --> 00:09:30,640
as an immigration officer.
208
00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,348
And Mr Gomez.
209
00:09:35,098 --> 00:09:36,222
Yes, because it does matter,
210
00:09:36,222 --> 00:09:40,098
because English people
won't take a young girl of 14
211
00:09:40,098 --> 00:09:41,057
and lock her up,
212
00:09:41,057 --> 00:09:43,973
and that's why I'm asking you.
213
00:09:45,057 --> 00:09:46,473
And you are the people...
214
00:09:46,473 --> 00:09:50,098
You are the people
that turn round to Amin
215
00:09:50,098 --> 00:09:52,389
and tell Amin
what a bastard he is
216
00:09:52,389 --> 00:09:55,306
for letting...
not letting British...
217
00:09:55,306 --> 00:09:58,599
You're the type of people...
218
00:09:59,599 --> 00:10:04,265
I think I'll have to talk to
the Chief Immigration Officer.
219
00:10:04,766 --> 00:10:07,223
We'll get her out.
220
00:10:07,223 --> 00:10:09,432
We will get her out.
221
00:10:10,182 --> 00:10:14,099
All right, now,
we phone the Home Office.
222
00:10:14,099 --> 00:10:15,891
I'm gonna phone
the Home Office now
223
00:10:15,891 --> 00:10:18,682
and I'll speak to the guy
at the Home Office.
224
00:10:18,682 --> 00:10:20,641
- Morte.
- (Woman) 'Maude?'
225
00:10:20,641 --> 00:10:23,641
Yes, please.
Alex Lyon's secretary.
226
00:10:23,641 --> 00:10:24,682
'Oh, Mr Moore.'
227
00:10:24,682 --> 00:10:28,432
Could you please get
this child released?
228
00:10:28,432 --> 00:10:31,433
(Man) 'I'll have to ask
for more details, Mr Davis.
229
00:10:31,433 --> 00:10:33,017
'Does she come from Cyprus?'
230
00:10:33,017 --> 00:10:33,808
She's from Cyprus,
231
00:10:33,808 --> 00:10:37,224
and she's in the Turkish sector
of Cyprus...
232
00:10:37,224 --> 00:10:37,725
'Yeah?'
233
00:10:37,725 --> 00:10:41,059
...and she came... Her sister's
here with me at the moment.
234
00:10:41,059 --> 00:10:41,516
'Yeah.
235
00:10:41,516 --> 00:10:45,266
'I'll certainly make enquiries
about this girl's situation
236
00:10:45,266 --> 00:10:46,017
'because of her age.
237
00:10:46,017 --> 00:10:48,266
'But other than that
I cannot say.'
238
00:10:48,266 --> 00:10:50,059
- I've never met you.
- 'Yeah.'
239
00:10:50,059 --> 00:10:52,391
I'll say this
about your governor.
240
00:10:52,391 --> 00:10:55,683
He's a decent feller
and he's a nice chap.
241
00:10:55,683 --> 00:10:58,683
I wouldn't like to change
my opinion about him.
242
00:10:58,683 --> 00:11:00,100
I want to keep the same opinion.
243
00:11:00,100 --> 00:11:03,601
'Yes, so, if you can assure
the girl's sister
244
00:11:03,601 --> 00:11:06,726
'that we are considering the
case urgently on her behalf.'
245
00:11:06,726 --> 00:11:09,060
Yeah, I wouldn't like her
to spend another night
246
00:11:09,060 --> 00:11:09,684
in that place.
247
00:11:09,684 --> 00:11:11,434
'No, of course not.
We are considering it now.'
248
00:11:11,434 --> 00:11:13,225
Good. I won't phone you
no more.
249
00:11:13,225 --> 00:11:16,726
Have a nice weekend and
I won't bother you anymore.
250
00:11:16,726 --> 00:11:19,101
And thank you.
I'm grateful to you.
251
00:11:19,101 --> 00:11:22,434
- 'My pleasure. Bye.'
- Bye-bye.
252
00:11:23,976 --> 00:11:27,809
Well, OK.
They're going to act. Today.
253
00:11:27,809 --> 00:11:31,893
And they are looking
into the matter right away.
254
00:11:31,893 --> 00:11:35,769
I wouldn't be surprised
if she'll be out tonight.
255
00:11:35,769 --> 00:11:36,769
I hope so.
256
00:11:36,769 --> 00:11:40,061
(Tannoy announcement)
257
00:11:45,727 --> 00:11:48,019
Excuse me.
258
00:12:04,226 --> 00:12:08,062
They can take her,
they can undress her,
259
00:12:08,062 --> 00:12:11,561
and examine her private parts,
260
00:12:11,561 --> 00:12:12,478
under the law,
261
00:12:12,478 --> 00:12:17,478
for... they call it... they can
photograph her, measure her...
262
00:12:19,519 --> 00:12:23,519
...and they can examine
her private parts
263
00:12:23,519 --> 00:12:27,853
for the purposes
of identification.
264
00:12:28,020 --> 00:12:30,103
- Did you know that?
- No, I didn't.
265
00:12:30,103 --> 00:12:31,895
Well, this is the law.
266
00:12:31,895 --> 00:12:32,770
This is disgusting.
267
00:12:32,770 --> 00:12:35,728
Yeah, well, that's what
I call it, disgusting,
268
00:12:35,728 --> 00:12:37,103
but they can do.
269
00:12:37,103 --> 00:12:39,186
And Securicor employees
270
00:12:39,186 --> 00:12:42,854
may also be authorised
by the Home Secretary
271
00:12:42,854 --> 00:12:44,228
to do these things.
272
00:12:44,228 --> 00:12:44,979
They can also do it.
273
00:12:44,979 --> 00:12:48,771
So, any man there,
if he wants to examine her,
274
00:12:48,771 --> 00:12:51,395
and he's a Securicor guard,
275
00:12:51,395 --> 00:12:54,979
he can under the law
take this young girl
276
00:12:54,979 --> 00:12:56,604
undress her, strip her,
277
00:12:56,604 --> 00:13:00,395
and examine her private parts
if he wants to.
278
00:13:00,395 --> 00:13:03,145
Did any of this happen to her?
279
00:13:03,145 --> 00:13:06,187
(Speaks foreign language)
280
00:13:07,937 --> 00:13:09,228
- No.
- No.
281
00:13:09,228 --> 00:13:13,688
She wasn't?
Well, thank God for that.
282
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,772
How long you been working here?
283
00:13:21,772 --> 00:13:23,105
Half past three.
284
00:13:23,105 --> 00:13:24,980
Half past... Pardon?
285
00:13:24,980 --> 00:13:27,313
Half past three.
Half past three.
286
00:13:27,313 --> 00:13:30,438
No, how many years
have you been here working?
287
00:13:30,438 --> 00:13:31,647
Half past three years.
288
00:13:31,647 --> 00:13:33,521
You mean
three and a half years?
289
00:13:33,521 --> 00:13:33,980
Yeah.
290
00:13:33,980 --> 00:13:36,563
And when you came here,
then what happened?
291
00:13:36,563 --> 00:13:40,938
I understand now that the
police came and picked you up.
292
00:13:40,938 --> 00:13:41,480
Yeah.
293
00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:43,313
And what did they do to you?
294
00:13:43,313 --> 00:13:45,147
They arrested both of them here?
295
00:13:45,147 --> 00:13:47,522
Your wife was working
here as well?
296
00:13:47,522 --> 00:13:50,397
Yeah. She is deported.
297
00:13:50,397 --> 00:13:52,106
- Pardon?
- She is deported.
298
00:13:52,106 --> 00:13:54,106
They deported the wife?
299
00:13:54,106 --> 00:13:56,481
And what about you?
300
00:13:56,481 --> 00:13:58,814
They told you
you can have an appeal?
301
00:13:58,814 --> 00:14:00,481
- Yeah.
- And you have an appeal now.
302
00:14:00,481 --> 00:14:05,481
It took me a year to break him
in to use this certain machine.
303
00:14:05,648 --> 00:14:08,065
You understand?
One whole year.
304
00:14:08,065 --> 00:14:09,481
We spent a lot of time
with him,
305
00:14:09,481 --> 00:14:13,106
overtime and Saturdays to break
him in to work this machine.
306
00:14:13,106 --> 00:14:17,230
- He's a nice type of chap, too.
- Gentleman.
307
00:14:32,148 --> 00:14:34,440
(Mr Davis) How did I get
into this business?
308
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,565
Well, I used to be
a personnel director
309
00:14:38,565 --> 00:14:41,690
for a large export group...
310
00:14:42,024 --> 00:14:42,857
in the clothing industry,
311
00:14:42,857 --> 00:14:47,482
I've always been interested
in the clothing industry.
312
00:14:47,482 --> 00:14:49,107
Every factory would be about...
313
00:14:49,107 --> 00:14:53,524
The machines would be 40
per cent idle in every factory
314
00:14:53,524 --> 00:14:55,983
because of the shortage
of workers.
315
00:14:55,983 --> 00:15:00,983
So, I went abroad and
I managed to contact 100 girls
316
00:15:01,274 --> 00:15:04,691
who had come to this country
for two years on a contract
317
00:15:04,691 --> 00:15:07,941
earning about 35,
40 pound a week.
318
00:15:07,941 --> 00:15:09,858
I came back to this country,
319
00:15:09,858 --> 00:15:11,775
I went to the Department
of Employment
320
00:15:11,775 --> 00:15:15,816
and I asked them
for work permits
321
00:15:15,816 --> 00:15:17,025
for the applicants.
322
00:15:17,025 --> 00:15:19,232
The Department of Employment
said, "Sorry, Mr Davis,
323
00:15:19,232 --> 00:15:20,316
"we can't give you
work permits,
324
00:15:20,316 --> 00:15:23,984
"because there are half
a million people unemployed."
325
00:15:23,984 --> 00:15:24,776
I said, "Goody-goody,
326
00:15:24,776 --> 00:15:28,400
"if there's a half a million
people unemployed,
327
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:29,484
"that's what we want.
328
00:15:29,484 --> 00:15:31,400
"Give us 1,000 machinists,
329
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:32,901
"British workers first,
330
00:15:32,901 --> 00:15:34,859
"and we will employ them
immediately.
331
00:15:34,859 --> 00:15:37,400
"They'll all be working
within 24 hours."
332
00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:38,859
They said,
"I'm sorry, Mr Davis,
333
00:15:38,859 --> 00:15:42,567
"but there are
no machinists unemployed."
334
00:15:42,567 --> 00:15:43,859
So, I said to them,
335
00:15:43,859 --> 00:15:47,609
"Well, can I have work permits
for these people coming in?"
336
00:15:47,609 --> 00:15:48,442
They said, "No, Mr Davis,
337
00:15:48,442 --> 00:15:50,442
"you can't have work permits
for these people,
338
00:15:50,442 --> 00:15:54,567
"because there's a half
a million people unemployed."
339
00:15:54,567 --> 00:15:57,318
They said, "Mr Davis,
would you mind trainees?"
340
00:15:57,318 --> 00:16:00,485
I said, "Yes, I don't mind
taking Jack the Ripper's sister,
341
00:16:00,485 --> 00:16:02,860
"as long as she can
use a machine."
342
00:16:02,860 --> 00:16:07,526
So they sent me along
to the trainees' department
343
00:16:07,526 --> 00:16:09,526
to see if I could get
some trainees
344
00:16:09,526 --> 00:16:12,860
and I had a letter
from the trainees' department
345
00:16:12,860 --> 00:16:14,401
saying, "I'm sorry, Mr Davis,
346
00:16:14,401 --> 00:16:17,985
"young girls today don't want to
go into the clothing industry.
347
00:16:17,985 --> 00:16:19,110
"They want to work in shops.
348
00:16:19,110 --> 00:16:20,568
"They would like to work
in stores
349
00:16:20,568 --> 00:16:23,568
"or they would like
to work in offices."
350
00:16:23,568 --> 00:16:25,234
I came back again
with this letter
351
00:16:25,234 --> 00:16:29,527
to the Department of Employment
and they said to me,
352
00:16:29,527 --> 00:16:32,986
"Mr Davis, if we give you
the work permits,
353
00:16:32,986 --> 00:16:34,277
"the unions will go mad."
354
00:16:34,277 --> 00:16:36,819
So, I went along to the union
and the union...
355
00:16:36,819 --> 00:16:39,736
Here's a letter here from
the National Union of Tailors
356
00:16:39,736 --> 00:16:40,861
and Garment Workers,
357
00:16:40,861 --> 00:16:44,611
and they said, no, Mr Davis,
we will support the application
358
00:16:44,611 --> 00:16:46,694
because if you have
no machinists,
359
00:16:46,694 --> 00:16:51,444
then you don't need finishers,
and you don't need designers,
360
00:16:51,444 --> 00:16:52,402
because they're the mainstay,
361
00:16:52,402 --> 00:16:54,653
machinists are the mainstay
of the business,
362
00:16:54,653 --> 00:16:58,111
and they gave me a letter
supporting the application.
363
00:16:58,111 --> 00:17:01,779
The Department of Employment
then said to me, yes, Mr Davis,
364
00:17:01,779 --> 00:17:04,153
don't worry, we can get
these workers for you.
365
00:17:04,153 --> 00:17:07,654
We've got thousands of Ugandan
Asians coming into the country
366
00:17:07,654 --> 00:17:11,904
and you're sure to get as
many machinists as you can get.
367
00:17:11,904 --> 00:17:14,362
Subsequently, I went down
to four of the camps,
368
00:17:14,362 --> 00:17:19,362
where these girls and
all these Ugandan Asians were,
369
00:17:20,112 --> 00:17:21,569
to see if I could
recruit labour,
370
00:17:21,569 --> 00:17:25,528
and I managed to find one girl
only out of the whole issue.
371
00:17:25,528 --> 00:17:27,987
One girl said she would
come and work for me
372
00:17:27,987 --> 00:17:29,236
if I bought her a house.
373
00:17:29,236 --> 00:17:31,737
So I said, "Listen, my darling,
you buy me a house
374
00:17:31,737 --> 00:17:33,113
"and I'll come
and work for you."
375
00:17:33,113 --> 00:17:36,154
I came back, I went along
to the Department of Employment
376
00:17:36,154 --> 00:17:39,529
and I said, "Department of
Employment, what shall I do?"
377
00:17:39,529 --> 00:17:41,780
And they gave me
a wonderful answer.
378
00:17:41,780 --> 00:17:43,613
They said to me, "Mr Davis,
379
00:17:43,613 --> 00:17:47,738
"the best thing to do is
don't take export orders."
380
00:17:47,738 --> 00:17:49,488
Now, this man must
have been a genius,
381
00:17:49,488 --> 00:17:53,780
because I understand that
he's been promoted since then.
382
00:17:53,780 --> 00:17:55,613
Are you married?
383
00:17:55,613 --> 00:17:56,072
No.
384
00:17:56,072 --> 00:17:58,030
Are you engaged to be married?
385
00:17:58,030 --> 00:17:58,488
Yeah.
386
00:17:58,488 --> 00:18:02,154
And why don't you get married
if you're engaged to be married?
387
00:18:02,154 --> 00:18:05,906
And if you get married
you'll be able to stay here
388
00:18:05,906 --> 00:18:10,447
under the new ruling
by the Home Secretary.
389
00:18:10,447 --> 00:18:12,781
Yeah.
That's a good idea.
390
00:18:12,781 --> 00:18:16,864
It's a good... Well, if
you're engaged to the girl...
391
00:18:16,864 --> 00:18:18,572
- Yeah.
- ...you're gonna marry her.
392
00:18:18,572 --> 00:18:20,781
You don't get engaged
unless you marry her.
393
00:18:20,781 --> 00:18:21,238
Exactly.
394
00:18:21,238 --> 00:18:23,405
Or do you get engaged...
Is this a habit with you?
395
00:18:23,405 --> 00:18:24,906
- Always to get engaged?
- No.
396
00:18:24,906 --> 00:18:26,906
And they teach you
to speak English in school?
397
00:18:26,906 --> 00:18:29,572
Yes, I have been to school
in evening classes.
398
00:18:29,572 --> 00:18:32,155
They taught you to say
God save the King?
399
00:18:32,155 --> 00:18:33,530
Yes, sure, I have got.
400
00:18:33,530 --> 00:18:35,822
Used to sing it in school?
Empire days?
401
00:18:35,822 --> 00:18:38,531
Used to have the British flag
and wave it about?
402
00:18:38,531 --> 00:18:41,239
- The Union Jack?
- That's right.
403
00:19:00,573 --> 00:19:04,281
Mr Lyon gave me some
very good news today.
404
00:19:04,281 --> 00:19:08,698
Mr Lyon told me that
he's going to stop me
405
00:19:08,698 --> 00:19:11,366
and put me out of business,
406
00:19:11,366 --> 00:19:15,075
and I can't carry on
my business anymore,
407
00:19:15,075 --> 00:19:19,157
because I charge people
for what I do.
408
00:19:19,157 --> 00:19:20,949
So, I said,
"Well, under the laws,
409
00:19:20,949 --> 00:19:23,407
"you're empowered
to give me a grant.
410
00:19:23,407 --> 00:19:28,116
"So, if you give me the grant,
I won't charge people."
411
00:19:28,116 --> 00:19:31,324
He's gonna instruct them up
there not to answer my letters,
412
00:19:31,324 --> 00:19:35,407
not to talk to me, not to
discuss anything with me.
413
00:19:35,407 --> 00:19:37,324
(Woman) Yes.
414
00:19:38,075 --> 00:19:41,908
So, what do you think
that'll mean for your business?
415
00:19:41,908 --> 00:19:44,659
Nothing at all.
416
00:19:45,117 --> 00:19:46,533
Not a thing.
417
00:19:46,533 --> 00:19:49,659
I said you can't stop me
representing people
418
00:19:49,659 --> 00:19:51,200
if I go up to
the adjudicators' court.
419
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:55,241
He said, "The adjudicator might
not want to listen to you."
420
00:19:55,241 --> 00:19:59,575
I said... "You're telling me,"
I said, "now...
421
00:20:00,784 --> 00:20:03,158
"...you're telling me
that the adjudicator...
422
00:20:03,158 --> 00:20:05,659
"you have no control
over the adjudicator,
423
00:20:05,659 --> 00:20:10,659
"and now you say the
adjudicators won't listen to me?
424
00:20:10,742 --> 00:20:11,825
"Supposed to be independent,
425
00:20:11,825 --> 00:20:16,076
"and you're telling me
they won't listen to me?
426
00:20:16,284 --> 00:20:18,534
"So, that's your independence?"
427
00:20:18,534 --> 00:20:20,826
I said, "According
to the immigration law,
428
00:20:20,826 --> 00:20:25,826
"the adjudicator must listen
to anybody, any appellant
429
00:20:26,159 --> 00:20:28,743
"or any appellant's
representative
430
00:20:28,743 --> 00:20:30,284
"they wish to appoint.
431
00:20:30,284 --> 00:20:31,534
"That's the law."
432
00:20:31,534 --> 00:20:34,201
"Yes, but they may not
want to listen to you."
433
00:20:34,201 --> 00:20:37,826
I said, "Come on." I said,
"You know it's not independent,
434
00:20:37,826 --> 00:20:39,451
"because next time
I go up there,
435
00:20:39,451 --> 00:20:41,118
"I'm gonna wear
my pith helmet up there.
436
00:20:41,118 --> 00:20:43,910
"You know these colonial
magistrates." I told him that.
437
00:20:43,910 --> 00:20:46,493
- (Woman) What did he say?
- Oh, he smiled.
438
00:20:46,493 --> 00:20:49,619
He knows the score.
He's not a fool.
439
00:20:49,619 --> 00:20:53,036
He knows what it's all about.
440
00:20:53,911 --> 00:20:58,036
He knows I'm absolutely right.
He knows.
441
00:20:58,036 --> 00:21:02,160
Probably that's what
he got the needle about.
442
00:21:07,036 --> 00:21:09,036
If he was so concerned
443
00:21:09,036 --> 00:21:12,911
that we're charging
these immigrants money,
444
00:21:12,911 --> 00:21:17,911
why doesn't he give them
free legal advice?
445
00:21:18,327 --> 00:21:21,411
The same as anybody
can get in the court.
446
00:21:21,411 --> 00:21:22,370
It's easy for him to do that,
447
00:21:22,370 --> 00:21:25,787
to say they can get
legal advice, legal aid.
448
00:21:25,787 --> 00:21:27,703
Won't give them legal aid.
449
00:21:27,703 --> 00:21:31,495
So, what do they have to do?
It's all down to one thing.
450
00:21:31,495 --> 00:21:34,536
They must go to where
he wants them to go
451
00:21:34,536 --> 00:21:37,370
and that is the UKIAS,
that's all there is to it.
452
00:21:37,370 --> 00:21:39,703
(Woman) You reckon there's
a connection between UKIAS...
453
00:21:39,703 --> 00:21:43,286
Course it is.
Any idiot can see that.
454
00:21:43,286 --> 00:21:46,870
UKIAS get a 125,000 grant.
455
00:21:46,870 --> 00:21:48,745
People don't want to go
to the UKIAS.
456
00:21:48,745 --> 00:21:50,536
They can go to anyone they want.
457
00:21:50,536 --> 00:21:51,370
They choose to come to me
458
00:21:51,370 --> 00:21:53,495
because they think
I can do a job much better.
459
00:21:53,495 --> 00:21:55,329
(Lewin) Is that
what you told him?
460
00:21:55,329 --> 00:21:58,496
Well, I said give me a grant.
461
00:22:00,913 --> 00:22:02,663
Well, no, he said UKIAS.
462
00:22:02,663 --> 00:22:05,371
I said it's like me suing you
463
00:22:05,371 --> 00:22:09,579
and sending you to
my solicitor to help you.
464
00:22:20,038 --> 00:22:22,287
(Man speaks in foreign language)
465
00:22:22,287 --> 00:22:25,204
(Woman speaks quietly)
466
00:22:26,329 --> 00:22:29,039
Yeah, I suppose it is.
467
00:22:30,914 --> 00:22:31,997
(Typing)
468
00:22:31,997 --> 00:22:36,163
We will write a letter on
her behalf to the Home Office...
469
00:22:36,163 --> 00:22:36,580
Yes.
470
00:22:36,580 --> 00:22:38,288
...and say that
for family reasons
471
00:22:38,288 --> 00:22:41,789
she would like to stay here
for a year more,
472
00:22:41,789 --> 00:22:46,122
and as I said
to her a year ago
473
00:22:46,122 --> 00:22:47,914
that we are an independent body.
474
00:22:47,914 --> 00:22:52,914
We are not controlled
in our direction of the work
475
00:22:53,413 --> 00:22:54,455
as to how we do.
476
00:22:54,455 --> 00:22:56,330
We are entirely
independent on that.
477
00:22:56,330 --> 00:22:58,205
Though we are
a government-funded body
478
00:22:58,205 --> 00:23:01,164
but we don't take directions
from the Home Office
479
00:23:01,164 --> 00:23:02,915
or from anybody
from the Home Office
480
00:23:02,915 --> 00:23:05,581
how we should do
with our clients.
481
00:23:05,581 --> 00:23:07,581
What advice we give you,
what advice,
482
00:23:07,581 --> 00:23:10,164
the answer is entirely
between us and the clients.
483
00:23:10,164 --> 00:23:13,831
We absolutely were under no
directions from the Home Office
484
00:23:13,831 --> 00:23:17,790
as far as how
our job's concerned.
485
00:23:17,790 --> 00:23:18,414
Is that clear?
486
00:23:18,414 --> 00:23:19,623
Because some people
have got some doubt
487
00:23:19,623 --> 00:23:22,082
that, oh, because we are
a government-funded body,
488
00:23:22,082 --> 00:23:24,289
we are under their thumb.
It is not so.
489
00:23:24,289 --> 00:23:25,915
We are not under their thumb
490
00:23:25,915 --> 00:23:29,123
as far as our duties
are concerned.
491
00:23:29,123 --> 00:23:29,790
- OK?
- Yes.
492
00:23:29,790 --> 00:23:33,540
Now, you have come
well and truly freely to us...
493
00:23:33,540 --> 00:23:33,957
Yes.
494
00:23:33,957 --> 00:23:35,666
...and our service
is free of charge,
495
00:23:35,666 --> 00:23:37,832
we do not charge you a penny.
496
00:23:37,832 --> 00:23:39,791
And because we don't
charge you a penny,
497
00:23:39,791 --> 00:23:42,083
it doesn't mean
it's a cheap service.
498
00:23:42,083 --> 00:23:44,540
It's a specialised service
by itself.
499
00:23:44,540 --> 00:23:46,207
No, this is our speciality.
500
00:23:46,207 --> 00:23:48,624
The immigration
is our speciality.
501
00:23:48,624 --> 00:23:50,374
You've seen your sister,
have you?
502
00:23:50,374 --> 00:23:51,290
(Man) Yes, I just left her.
503
00:23:51,290 --> 00:23:55,248
Well, I've telephoned
Immigration to find out
504
00:23:55,248 --> 00:23:59,290
what the situation is
as far as they see it.
505
00:23:59,290 --> 00:24:02,415
Um... it appears
that the main problem is
506
00:24:02,415 --> 00:24:06,500
that she applied for an entry
certificate last year
507
00:24:06,500 --> 00:24:08,249
and was refused.
508
00:24:08,249 --> 00:24:09,833
Um... she was refused
509
00:24:09,833 --> 00:24:12,708
because they didn't consider
she had especial incentive
510
00:24:12,708 --> 00:24:16,249
to go back to Guyana,
if she came here.
511
00:24:16,249 --> 00:24:21,249
Um... now they say that they
interviewed her all yesterday,
512
00:24:22,583 --> 00:24:25,500
um... and that she wasn't...
513
00:24:25,500 --> 00:24:29,458
well, didn't really give them
all the true details,
514
00:24:29,458 --> 00:24:32,208
and I think they told you
this as well, didn't they?
515
00:24:32,208 --> 00:24:32,958
(Man) Mm-hm, mm-hm.
516
00:24:32,958 --> 00:24:35,375
Yes. I think she must be
a bit confused.
517
00:24:35,375 --> 00:24:37,167
Do you think she is
a bit confused?
518
00:24:37,167 --> 00:24:38,459
Well, I was confused
when I was there
519
00:24:38,459 --> 00:24:41,542
because, you know,
I don't think it's...
520
00:24:41,542 --> 00:24:43,751
It's a catch,
you know what I mean?
521
00:24:43,751 --> 00:24:45,417
They're pumping things
in your head
522
00:24:45,417 --> 00:24:48,292
and they're trying to catch
you, you know what I mean?
523
00:24:48,292 --> 00:24:49,959
It's a test, more or less,
you know?
524
00:24:49,959 --> 00:24:52,459
And they are trying
to tempt you to do this,
525
00:24:52,459 --> 00:24:54,292
and before you know
what you said,
526
00:24:54,292 --> 00:24:56,209
they confuse you
with something else.
527
00:24:56,209 --> 00:24:58,126
It's, you know, it's...
I don't know.
528
00:24:58,126 --> 00:25:00,334
It's more or less they are
putting things in your mouth
529
00:25:00,334 --> 00:25:05,334
and they want... they're hoping
that you will say those things.
530
00:25:05,542 --> 00:25:06,209
Mm.
531
00:25:06,209 --> 00:25:11,210
What do you think her incentive
is to go back to Guyana?
532
00:25:11,794 --> 00:25:13,502
You see, once she comes here
as a visitor,
533
00:25:13,502 --> 00:25:17,585
she is quite entitled to make
an application to stay here
534
00:25:17,585 --> 00:25:20,127
for studies
or for permanent settlement
535
00:25:20,127 --> 00:25:21,710
or for anything else.
536
00:25:21,710 --> 00:25:22,669
So as far as you're concerned...
537
00:25:22,669 --> 00:25:25,502
But this is what they want
to avoid her doing, we think.
538
00:25:25,502 --> 00:25:26,377
So how do you avoid that?
539
00:25:26,377 --> 00:25:29,919
You're guilty before
you prove yourself.
540
00:25:29,919 --> 00:25:30,335
No.
541
00:25:30,335 --> 00:25:33,377
Yes, are, because
they say that, you know,
542
00:25:33,377 --> 00:25:34,794
she want to come here to settle.
543
00:25:34,794 --> 00:25:36,418
(Woman) Well, this is
what they suspect.
544
00:25:36,418 --> 00:25:38,335
Yeah, this is what
they suspect, right?
545
00:25:38,335 --> 00:25:39,752
It's not a suspicion anymore
546
00:25:39,752 --> 00:25:41,835
because it's a fact now,
isn't it?
547
00:25:41,835 --> 00:25:44,544
(Woman) It's not a fact, no.
They suspect.
548
00:25:44,544 --> 00:25:45,211
Well, it's a fact
549
00:25:45,211 --> 00:25:47,461
because they're sending her
back, aren't they?
550
00:25:47,461 --> 00:25:48,087
It's true to say
551
00:25:48,087 --> 00:25:50,378
that Immigration
can refuse people here
552
00:25:50,378 --> 00:25:52,336
permission to enter
the country as a visitor
553
00:25:52,336 --> 00:25:56,503
without definite proof that
they're not genuine visitors.
554
00:25:56,503 --> 00:25:59,753
So, you're guilty
before you're innocent?
555
00:25:59,753 --> 00:26:01,795
I know what
the British Constitution says.
556
00:26:01,795 --> 00:26:04,087
I went to school
in my childhood days
557
00:26:04,087 --> 00:26:06,795
and that's one
of the fundamental rights.
558
00:26:06,795 --> 00:26:10,169
You're innocent
until you're proven guilty.
559
00:26:10,169 --> 00:26:11,169
You know what I mean?
560
00:26:11,169 --> 00:26:13,045
All this detention thing
they have there.
561
00:26:13,045 --> 00:26:16,170
I'd like them to go and spend
some time there themselves,
562
00:26:16,170 --> 00:26:18,754
Just live there
for a day or so,
563
00:26:18,754 --> 00:26:19,962
and see how they like it.
564
00:26:19,962 --> 00:26:23,712
Yes, I know
it's not very pleasant.
565
00:26:23,712 --> 00:26:25,170
Um...
566
00:26:25,170 --> 00:26:26,462
I've been living over here
long enough.
567
00:26:26,462 --> 00:26:29,004
I know a lot of things
and you know I'm not stupid.
568
00:26:29,004 --> 00:26:33,796
But you behave decently
and they try to make you stupid.
569
00:26:33,796 --> 00:26:36,129
Well, the only thing
we can do now,
570
00:26:36,129 --> 00:26:38,088
as she has been refused,
571
00:26:38,088 --> 00:26:40,088
um... if you want to,
572
00:26:40,088 --> 00:26:42,962
she can appeal
against this decision.
573
00:26:42,962 --> 00:26:47,046
Um... but only after
she's been sent back.
574
00:26:48,089 --> 00:26:50,338
What, put her though
all this again?
575
00:26:50,338 --> 00:26:51,296
No. I think they...
576
00:26:51,296 --> 00:26:55,546
(Woman) If I can just explain
what the appeal procedure is.
577
00:26:55,546 --> 00:26:57,672
She will have to lodge
the appeal
578
00:26:57,672 --> 00:27:01,963
within 28 days of her return.
579
00:27:01,963 --> 00:27:02,672
The appeal will...
580
00:27:02,672 --> 00:27:04,755
(Man) And they're gonna
pay for all the passage
581
00:27:04,755 --> 00:27:05,588
and all that, I suppose?
582
00:27:05,588 --> 00:27:07,130
Well, the airline
that brought her here
583
00:27:07,130 --> 00:27:09,505
has to take her back, yes.
She doesn't pay for that.
584
00:27:09,505 --> 00:27:11,005
No, but if you appeal
and you do win,
585
00:27:11,005 --> 00:27:14,213
they have to pay for the passage
and everything else, won't they?
586
00:27:14,213 --> 00:27:17,755
Or you have to spend
all the money all over again?
587
00:27:17,755 --> 00:27:20,506
- And that's justice?
- (Woman) It may well be, yes.
588
00:27:20,506 --> 00:27:23,964
You could take that up with
the Home Office. I don't know.
589
00:27:23,964 --> 00:27:24,756
No, I could take it up
590
00:27:24,756 --> 00:27:27,631
for what they've done to her
since yesterday.
591
00:27:27,631 --> 00:27:30,255
I call it torture.
592
00:27:32,006 --> 00:27:36,422
Mm. Well,
what are you going to do?
593
00:27:36,422 --> 00:27:38,172
What do you want to do?
594
00:27:38,172 --> 00:27:39,631
I can only give you advice.
595
00:27:39,631 --> 00:27:42,839
So ask me questions,
and I'll help you if I can.
596
00:27:42,839 --> 00:27:46,131
I just want to go home
and sleep.
597
00:27:46,631 --> 00:27:51,547
Um... and think it over
so you want to decide...
598
00:27:51,547 --> 00:27:53,132
No, go to sleep. I'm so tired.
599
00:27:53,132 --> 00:27:55,423
Mm, and what about
the appeal from abroad?
600
00:27:55,423 --> 00:27:58,507
Do you want go through
with that or not?
601
00:27:58,507 --> 00:27:59,340
Or haven't you decided?
602
00:27:59,340 --> 00:28:01,715
I don't think... I mean,
you come over here to visit,
603
00:28:01,715 --> 00:28:04,924
and all this argy-bargy
just to visit.
604
00:28:04,924 --> 00:28:05,590
Is it worth it,
605
00:28:05,590 --> 00:28:08,049
visiting a country
under these circumstances?
606
00:28:08,049 --> 00:28:08,965
I don't think it is.
607
00:28:08,965 --> 00:28:10,007
Well, that's for you
to decide.
608
00:28:10,007 --> 00:28:15,007
No, you see, the visit is over.
I mean, that's her visit.
609
00:28:15,173 --> 00:28:15,590
Mm.
610
00:28:15,590 --> 00:28:20,590
Well, I'm trying to find out
whether Miss Rama...
611
00:28:21,548 --> 00:28:22,298
Rama Khan...
612
00:28:22,298 --> 00:28:25,298
- (Man) Shanti Devi.
- Shanti Devi Rama Khan.
613
00:28:25,298 --> 00:28:26,174
She's a girl from Guyana
614
00:28:26,174 --> 00:28:27,966
who came here
from Toronto yesterday.
615
00:28:27,966 --> 00:28:32,966
I'm trying to find out
whether she's gone yet or not.
616
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,633
Well, I think
she's supposed to go at 2:30.
617
00:28:36,633 --> 00:28:39,383
I'm not quite sure really.
618
00:28:39,383 --> 00:28:42,800
To Toronto. Mm.
619
00:28:43,841 --> 00:28:47,424
(Man) I don't mind
if they let her stay for a day.
620
00:28:47,424 --> 00:28:50,133
That'd be all right.
621
00:28:50,133 --> 00:28:53,050
But just to come
and go like this,
622
00:28:53,050 --> 00:28:57,383
it's probably like people like
animals in the zoo, you know,
623
00:28:57,383 --> 00:28:59,093
which are bad
and you send them back.
624
00:28:59,093 --> 00:29:01,051
You know, that's the only way
you can think of it.
625
00:29:01,051 --> 00:29:04,967
You're not human beings
anymore. You're just animals.
626
00:29:04,967 --> 00:29:09,509
No... you know,
it makes me think of Nazism
627
00:29:09,509 --> 00:29:12,258
and all that sort of thing.
628
00:29:29,967 --> 00:29:32,968
(Phone ringing)
629
00:29:34,135 --> 00:29:34,843
(Man) 'Hello?'
630
00:29:34,843 --> 00:29:36,426
Hello. Can I speak to you
about a client
631
00:29:36,426 --> 00:29:40,052
that you have detained
down in the Immigration there?
632
00:29:40,052 --> 00:29:42,052
- 'Who's that speaking, please?'
- Mr Davis.
633
00:29:42,052 --> 00:29:44,760
- 'Mr Reuben Davis?'
- Yes, it is Mr Reuben Davis.
634
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,218
'And what's the name
of your client, Mr Davis?'
635
00:29:47,218 --> 00:29:48,551
Mr Sharif Ali.
636
00:29:48,551 --> 00:29:50,885
'Well, I'm afraid
that I have instructions
637
00:29:50,885 --> 00:29:51,677
'from the Home Office
638
00:29:51,677 --> 00:29:55,135
'to have no further dealings
with you, Mr Davis, and...'
639
00:29:55,135 --> 00:29:58,135
- Can you tell me...
- '...to advise you that, er...
640
00:29:58,135 --> 00:30:00,593
'should you wish your client
to be represented
641
00:30:00,593 --> 00:30:03,928
'then you should advise him
to either represent himself
642
00:30:03,928 --> 00:30:06,803
'or to seek some
further representative.'
643
00:30:06,803 --> 00:30:09,136
Would you advise me, then,
644
00:30:09,136 --> 00:30:11,136
as the Home Office advised you,
645
00:30:11,136 --> 00:30:13,552
to tell me where
these people should go
646
00:30:13,552 --> 00:30:14,386
for representation?
647
00:30:14,386 --> 00:30:17,177
'No, they have not,
but, as I've been advised
648
00:30:17,177 --> 00:30:20,177
'to have no further dealings
with you and...'
649
00:30:20,177 --> 00:30:21,928
Is that what the Home Office
told you,
650
00:30:21,928 --> 00:30:25,053
that you mustn't have
any further dealings with me?
651
00:30:25,053 --> 00:30:25,886
'Goodbye, Mr Davis.'
652
00:30:25,886 --> 00:30:28,302
Can you please tell me why?
653
00:30:28,302 --> 00:30:30,552
(Click)
654
00:30:30,552 --> 00:30:31,928
Just cut me off.
655
00:30:31,928 --> 00:30:35,552
Can't... can't deal
with me anymore.
656
00:30:35,552 --> 00:30:37,387
You see, the Home Office,
I explained to you,
657
00:30:37,387 --> 00:30:38,970
they want to nationalise
my business.
658
00:30:38,970 --> 00:30:41,637
They don't want me to act
on your behalf
659
00:30:41,637 --> 00:30:46,637
because I fight too strongly
for my clients.
660
00:30:50,054 --> 00:30:51,012
So there's not much I can do.
661
00:30:51,012 --> 00:30:55,096
So I advise you now
to go down to the... Dover,
662
00:30:55,096 --> 00:30:56,137
go to Dover now,
663
00:30:56,137 --> 00:30:59,054
and speak to
the Chief Immigration Officer,
664
00:30:59,054 --> 00:31:03,137
tell him that your brother's
not illegally in this country,
665
00:31:03,137 --> 00:31:03,970
he's not,
666
00:31:03,970 --> 00:31:08,096
he has been here legally
with the consent
667
00:31:08,096 --> 00:31:08,846
of the Home Office,
668
00:31:08,846 --> 00:31:13,471
to remain in the country
until the appeal is heard.
669
00:31:45,847 --> 00:31:48,681
Anyway, he's gone back.
670
00:31:48,972 --> 00:31:50,180
He's gone back.
671
00:31:50,180 --> 00:31:52,430
Did you explain to him
about the appeal?
672
00:31:52,430 --> 00:31:57,056
Yes, I did. They don't
want to know anything.
673
00:31:57,056 --> 00:31:59,931
He looked so miserable.
674
00:32:00,847 --> 00:32:04,098
He was hardly talking to us.
675
00:32:05,472 --> 00:32:06,098
(Man) Crying.
676
00:32:06,098 --> 00:32:10,889
Crying all the time,
coming from his eyes.
677
00:32:10,889 --> 00:32:12,389
(Ben Lewin) What about
the immigration officer?
678
00:32:12,389 --> 00:32:15,765
What was his mood?
What was his attitude?
679
00:32:15,765 --> 00:32:17,348
He was very joyful.
680
00:32:17,348 --> 00:32:21,932
He was very joyful
because he's sending him back.
681
00:32:21,932 --> 00:32:26,390
And he was the chief
immigration officer himself.
682
00:32:26,390 --> 00:32:30,181
- (Ben Lewin) Which one?
- The one with the beard.
683
00:32:30,181 --> 00:32:34,015
He is the one
who stamped his passport
684
00:32:34,015 --> 00:32:34,556
to go back
685
00:32:34,556 --> 00:32:39,264
and he called a young chap
inside to interview us,
686
00:32:39,264 --> 00:32:41,431
and he was sitting next to him.
687
00:32:41,431 --> 00:32:44,848
But mostly questions
he was asking.
688
00:32:44,848 --> 00:32:47,307
(Ben Lewin) What was
his attitude to you?
689
00:32:47,307 --> 00:32:49,100
Well... To me?
690
00:32:49,100 --> 00:32:49,933
(Ben Lewin) Yeah.
691
00:32:49,933 --> 00:32:52,100
He look all right, but to him,
692
00:32:52,100 --> 00:32:57,100
they ask him who organise
this press to come here
693
00:32:57,516 --> 00:33:02,141
and he told them
that you organise it.
694
00:33:02,141 --> 00:33:03,100
(Ben Lewin) That I organised it?
695
00:33:03,100 --> 00:33:07,808
Yeah, but I think
they were a bit annoyed
696
00:33:07,808 --> 00:33:09,724
to see the press down here.
697
00:33:09,724 --> 00:33:10,474
They didn't like it.
698
00:33:10,474 --> 00:33:14,100
They didn't like it
when they see the press.
699
00:33:14,100 --> 00:33:16,766
They close all the windows.
700
00:33:16,766 --> 00:33:20,059
They... they put
the lights inside.
701
00:33:20,059 --> 00:33:22,266
All the windows were open
when we get in
702
00:33:22,266 --> 00:33:27,266
and when we sit down
they put curtains...
703
00:33:27,517 --> 00:33:29,684
(Woman)
Inside the police station?
704
00:33:29,684 --> 00:33:31,392
Yeah.
705
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,183
(Ben Lewin) What's your
experience been like here?
706
00:33:44,183 --> 00:33:47,142
Experience?
What sort of experience? Oh!
707
00:33:47,142 --> 00:33:51,142
My goodness!
This is experience? Oh!
708
00:33:51,142 --> 00:33:51,976
Experience is horrible.
709
00:33:51,976 --> 00:33:56,351
Everybody's got the same story,
all back along behind there.
710
00:33:56,643 --> 00:33:57,393
How are you treated?
711
00:33:57,393 --> 00:34:00,226
Obviously when I'm treated
as a prisoner over here,
712
00:34:00,226 --> 00:34:02,476
you can make a zebra out of me,
713
00:34:02,476 --> 00:34:03,768
like right now you are seeing.
714
00:34:03,768 --> 00:34:06,226
I'm not allowed to step out
of this place,
715
00:34:06,226 --> 00:34:07,351
as if I'm a criminal.
716
00:34:07,351 --> 00:34:10,518
I've not committed any crime.
717
00:34:10,518 --> 00:34:13,893
Everybody is depressed. You can
see people crying around here.
718
00:34:13,893 --> 00:34:14,518
(Ben Lewin) Hmm?
719
00:34:14,518 --> 00:34:17,060
(Man) You can see
people crying around here.
720
00:34:17,060 --> 00:34:20,810
(Ben Lewin) Do people here
understand why they're in here?
721
00:34:20,810 --> 00:34:23,143
Well, most of them,
if they've not understood,
722
00:34:23,143 --> 00:34:25,893
they're made to understand,
do you see?
723
00:34:25,893 --> 00:34:28,726
We had one person
in the morning today.
724
00:34:28,726 --> 00:34:29,476
Two of them, rather.
725
00:34:29,476 --> 00:34:31,476
They were going to
United States of America,
726
00:34:31,476 --> 00:34:32,393
coming from Saudi Arabia.
727
00:34:32,393 --> 00:34:35,686
They had a transit halt
of about 18 hours over here
728
00:34:35,686 --> 00:34:37,435
and they had hotel booking
and everything.
729
00:34:37,435 --> 00:34:40,435
These people never
allowed them to go the hotel.
730
00:34:40,435 --> 00:34:41,351
They said this was the hotel
731
00:34:41,351 --> 00:34:44,601
and when those poor chaps
landed over here,
732
00:34:44,601 --> 00:34:46,435
they were shocked.
733
00:34:46,435 --> 00:34:48,143
They were just shocked, you see.
734
00:34:48,143 --> 00:34:49,601
They felt they were
taking them to a hotel.
735
00:34:49,601 --> 00:34:51,726
They didn't know
that they were putting them
736
00:34:51,726 --> 00:34:52,476
to a detention camp.
737
00:34:52,476 --> 00:34:54,268
(Ben Lewin) Before this,
did you regard yourself
738
00:34:54,268 --> 00:34:57,895
as having any British sympathy,
British connections?
739
00:34:57,895 --> 00:35:02,812
I did always feel that I was
possessing a British passport
740
00:35:02,812 --> 00:35:03,937
and that was something.
741
00:35:03,937 --> 00:35:05,436
Till such time I have realised
742
00:35:05,436 --> 00:35:07,603
that possessing
a British passport,
743
00:35:07,603 --> 00:35:09,145
I think it's a discredit.
744
00:35:09,145 --> 00:35:11,062
Mind you, I'm not going
to possess it anymore.
745
00:35:11,062 --> 00:35:13,436
When I go home,
I will think it over,
746
00:35:13,436 --> 00:35:14,978
whether I should possess it
747
00:35:14,978 --> 00:35:17,520
or just ask
for some other nationality
748
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,436
of some other country,
not this one.
749
00:35:20,436 --> 00:35:24,062
He holds a British passport.
750
00:35:24,311 --> 00:35:26,687
And these men, they were
kicked out of Burma,
751
00:35:26,687 --> 00:35:29,186
you know about Burma,
you see, for about ten years.
752
00:35:29,186 --> 00:35:33,021
For ten good years of his life,
he has slogged.
753
00:35:33,021 --> 00:35:34,854
He has slogged.
754
00:35:34,854 --> 00:35:37,105
Just because
he's a national of this place,
755
00:35:37,105 --> 00:35:39,979
obviously he's not
going to be entitled to work
756
00:35:39,979 --> 00:35:41,479
in any other country
other than this.
757
00:35:41,479 --> 00:35:43,562
So, wherever for these
ten years he has worked here
758
00:35:43,562 --> 00:35:46,105
he has worked illegally,
do you see?
759
00:35:46,105 --> 00:35:47,854
All this... all these years.
And poor chap,
760
00:35:47,854 --> 00:35:50,604
he did not have money to come
over here all these years.
761
00:35:50,604 --> 00:35:54,063
So now he has borrowed
money from his friends,
762
00:35:54,063 --> 00:35:55,854
and landed over here.
763
00:35:55,854 --> 00:35:56,729
(Man murmurs)
764
00:35:56,729 --> 00:35:58,646
Same place, detention room.
765
00:35:58,646 --> 00:36:00,437
(Ben Lewin) What's the average
length of stay here?
766
00:36:00,437 --> 00:36:02,730
What seems to be the time
that people have to...
767
00:36:02,730 --> 00:36:04,106
The average length?
768
00:36:04,106 --> 00:36:06,147
I won't tell you average length
769
00:36:06,147 --> 00:36:08,772
because most of the people
around over here
770
00:36:08,772 --> 00:36:10,230
have stayed more
than a week over here.
771
00:36:10,230 --> 00:36:11,897
In fact for myself
I have 15 days.
772
00:36:11,897 --> 00:36:13,605
This gentleman must be
about 13 days.
773
00:36:13,605 --> 00:36:16,064
And there are people who have
stayed for two months
774
00:36:16,064 --> 00:36:17,480
and one month.
775
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:18,480
(Ben Lewin) Mm.
776
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,730
This gentleman over here,
he had,
777
00:36:21,730 --> 00:36:26,147
I think, a pure British
passport before about 1939.
778
00:36:26,147 --> 00:36:27,939
39, yeah. In the year '39.
779
00:36:27,939 --> 00:36:30,438
He has been setting off
for United Kingdom.
780
00:36:30,438 --> 00:36:33,647
Setting off for
the United Kingdom by bus.
781
00:36:33,647 --> 00:36:34,271
Past 40 years.
782
00:36:34,271 --> 00:36:35,773
(Ben Lewin)
How long has he been here?
783
00:36:35,773 --> 00:36:37,648
(Man) He's been here
for about two months now.
784
00:36:37,648 --> 00:36:39,981
- (Ben Lewin) For how long?
- For two months, I think.
785
00:36:39,981 --> 00:36:41,356
(Ben Lewin) What's happening
with his case?
786
00:36:41,356 --> 00:36:42,981
Well, God alone knows
what's happening with his case.
787
00:36:42,981 --> 00:36:45,690
So far he has not been asked
to come to the Immigration.
788
00:36:45,690 --> 00:36:47,815
Nobody has informed him
anything about it.
789
00:36:47,815 --> 00:36:50,564
This man wanted to come
from Karachi to this place
790
00:36:50,564 --> 00:36:51,564
and settle over here.
791
00:36:51,564 --> 00:36:52,731
He says he has a right
to settle
792
00:36:52,731 --> 00:36:54,648
because he has got
a pure British passport.
793
00:36:54,648 --> 00:36:56,940
Mr Lewin, if you'd like to come
and have a word with me, please.
794
00:36:56,940 --> 00:36:59,439
(Ben Lewin) I think I'll have
a word with you here.
795
00:36:59,439 --> 00:37:01,439
Look, I'm not required to come
and have a word with you.
796
00:37:01,439 --> 00:37:05,398
I'll have a word with you here,
if you like, Mr Mitchell.
797
00:37:05,398 --> 00:37:08,357
You're not prepared to come
and have a word with me, then?
798
00:37:08,357 --> 00:37:09,857
We can talk here.
799
00:37:09,857 --> 00:37:10,399
Oh, I see.
800
00:37:10,399 --> 00:37:12,399
Well, tell me,
have you got permission
801
00:37:12,399 --> 00:37:14,982
from the Home Office PRO
for this?
802
00:37:14,982 --> 00:37:17,273
I spoke on Wednesday
to Alex Lyon,
803
00:37:17,273 --> 00:37:19,190
the Minister of Immigration
804
00:37:19,190 --> 00:37:21,273
and he has no objection himself
805
00:37:21,273 --> 00:37:25,024
to my filming any matters
involving immigration control.
806
00:37:25,024 --> 00:37:27,108
I'll give you his home
telephone number.
807
00:37:27,108 --> 00:37:27,607
No, no.
808
00:37:27,607 --> 00:37:31,232
You say you did this on, what,
Wednesday of this week?
809
00:37:31,232 --> 00:37:34,607
I spoke to Alex Lyon
on Wednesday of this week.
810
00:37:34,607 --> 00:37:35,357
He has no objection
811
00:37:35,357 --> 00:37:37,024
to my filming anything
involving immigration control.
812
00:37:37,024 --> 00:37:42,025
But did this include the people
in the detention accommodation?
813
00:37:42,650 --> 00:37:43,441
The only proviso was,
814
00:37:43,441 --> 00:37:46,817
that if officials working
in the Immigration service
815
00:37:46,817 --> 00:37:48,400
didn't wish to be included
in the film,
816
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,942
then I should respect
their wishes,
817
00:37:50,942 --> 00:37:52,274
and I've agreed to do that.
818
00:37:52,274 --> 00:37:54,358
So, you've not
taken it up directly
819
00:37:54,358 --> 00:37:57,191
with the press
relations officer?
820
00:37:57,191 --> 00:38:00,274
You've gone straight to Mr Lyon?
821
00:38:00,274 --> 00:38:00,900
(Ben Lewin) Yes.
822
00:38:00,900 --> 00:38:02,525
But the press relations
officer is acquainted with me.
823
00:38:02,525 --> 00:38:05,400
All right. Well, if you say
you've cleared it...
824
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,608
(Ben Lewin) I haven't asked...
I haven't on this occasion
825
00:38:09,608 --> 00:38:11,650
asked the Home Office
for any facility,
826
00:38:11,650 --> 00:38:14,401
to provide me with any facility.
827
00:38:14,401 --> 00:38:17,901
But as a personal discussion
between myself and Mr Lyon,
828
00:38:17,901 --> 00:38:20,234
- he has nothing to hide.
- No, very well.
829
00:38:20,234 --> 00:38:22,234
(Ben Lewin) I don't know
if your opinion differs.
830
00:38:22,234 --> 00:38:24,151
Well, if you say
that you've done that,
831
00:38:24,151 --> 00:38:26,192
there's nothing
much more I can do.
832
00:38:26,192 --> 00:38:27,192
All right, thank you, Mr Lewin.
833
00:38:27,192 --> 00:38:29,651
But if you talk to the officer
like this, he believes in you,
834
00:38:29,651 --> 00:38:32,484
but when I tell him that I am
right, he doesn't believe in me.
835
00:38:32,484 --> 00:38:35,234
When I tell him that I have
come as a visitor, he says no.
836
00:38:35,234 --> 00:38:37,359
When I tell him I've got
business over there, he says no.
837
00:38:37,359 --> 00:38:39,026
When I tell him that
my wife is pregnant
838
00:38:39,026 --> 00:38:41,734
and I'm expected
to reach home earlier,
839
00:38:41,734 --> 00:38:42,317
they say no.
840
00:38:42,317 --> 00:38:44,776
When you say that you
have talked to somebody,
841
00:38:44,776 --> 00:38:46,402
he just takes it for granted
that you have talked.
842
00:38:46,402 --> 00:38:50,318
Why doesn't he phone after
the minister concerned and ask
843
00:38:50,318 --> 00:38:51,860
whether you have
taken permission or not?
844
00:38:51,860 --> 00:38:55,235
But just merely, I suppose,
because you are white,
845
00:38:55,235 --> 00:38:55,985
and I'm brown,
846
00:38:55,985 --> 00:39:00,111
he takes you for granted
and with me, no.
847
00:39:00,111 --> 00:39:02,568
(Vehicle approaches)
848
00:39:02,568 --> 00:39:03,819
(Ben Lewin)
I think we'd best be off.
849
00:39:03,819 --> 00:39:06,527
Well, we can see some
new faces coming over here.
850
00:39:06,527 --> 00:39:08,985
- They're the latest.
- (Ben Lewin) Yes.
851
00:39:08,985 --> 00:39:11,527
(First man)
The latest criminals, you see.
852
00:39:11,527 --> 00:39:13,152
God knows what is their crime.
853
00:39:13,152 --> 00:39:15,944
Because over here
people come with visas
854
00:39:15,944 --> 00:39:19,194
and even they are refused.
855
00:39:27,611 --> 00:39:31,153
(Lewin) Have you been assisted
at all by any outside agency?
856
00:39:31,153 --> 00:39:33,820
(First man) Well, my brother
approached the UKIAS
857
00:39:33,820 --> 00:39:35,986
and they said they are
going to take care of it,
858
00:39:35,986 --> 00:39:38,236
and UKIAS, I tell you,
that's a body
859
00:39:38,236 --> 00:39:41,028
which just doesn't get
into my head, you see?
860
00:39:41,028 --> 00:39:42,986
I've been here
for bloody 15 days.
861
00:39:42,986 --> 00:39:45,903
Nobody has come
to see me so far. Nobody.
862
00:39:45,903 --> 00:39:49,028
One person did come,
day before yesterday.
863
00:39:49,028 --> 00:39:51,612
But that is when
I phone him up to find out
864
00:39:51,612 --> 00:39:53,570
as to what's the fate
of my case.
865
00:39:53,570 --> 00:39:55,612
The man says it's
with the Home Office
866
00:39:55,612 --> 00:39:57,612
and he doesn't know
the fate of it.
867
00:39:57,612 --> 00:40:00,195
I was working one day
late in the office
868
00:40:00,195 --> 00:40:03,113
and then I had a telephone call
from Benjani
869
00:40:03,113 --> 00:40:08,113
and he said that I should
inform the... Immigration
870
00:40:08,113 --> 00:40:11,779
that he would like to go back
if he's not let in.
871
00:40:11,779 --> 00:40:15,946
So, I found him...
he was in a bit of a mood,
872
00:40:15,946 --> 00:40:20,529
so I decided that I go
and see him personally.
873
00:40:20,529 --> 00:40:24,363
So I visited him
in the detention centre
874
00:40:24,363 --> 00:40:28,446
and I gave him a bit of advice.
875
00:40:28,446 --> 00:40:31,446
And advice was that...
876
00:40:31,446 --> 00:40:33,988
be patient.
877
00:40:34,072 --> 00:40:36,905
I wanna stick this
up the Immigration.
878
00:40:36,905 --> 00:40:37,446
Of course.
879
00:40:37,446 --> 00:40:42,446
And that is my main...
my main idea.
880
00:40:42,780 --> 00:40:43,697
Yeah.
881
00:40:43,697 --> 00:40:47,863
And that's why I want to do
this, because I think myself
882
00:40:47,863 --> 00:40:52,655
that it's wrong what
they are doing to people.
883
00:40:52,655 --> 00:40:53,238
It is wrong.
884
00:40:53,238 --> 00:40:57,280
They are making people suffer
for nothing
885
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,823
and they're bloody hypocrites
886
00:40:59,823 --> 00:41:03,572
and therefore...
and that is the main reason
887
00:41:03,572 --> 00:41:07,073
why I wanna have a go
at the Immigration.
888
00:41:07,073 --> 00:41:07,489
Yes.
889
00:41:07,489 --> 00:41:09,614
Well, let 'em change
their bloody laws.
890
00:41:09,614 --> 00:41:11,989
They give people passports,
British passports,
891
00:41:11,989 --> 00:41:14,280
when they need them,
when they wanna milk 'em,
892
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:15,823
and after they can't
milk 'em anymore,
893
00:41:15,823 --> 00:41:20,031
the passports, they might
as well put it down the toilet.
894
00:41:20,489 --> 00:41:22,823
Now...
895
00:41:22,823 --> 00:41:23,906
I came to see you
896
00:41:23,906 --> 00:41:28,907
because I don't have many
contacts in Pakistan and India,
897
00:41:29,699 --> 00:41:34,699
and I wanted to arrange,
in view of the new ruling,
898
00:41:35,116 --> 00:41:37,032
by Lord Denning,
899
00:41:37,032 --> 00:41:38,657
that people don't...
900
00:41:38,657 --> 00:41:43,657
or wives of patrioles
don't have to...
901
00:41:45,032 --> 00:41:47,740
...go to the British
High Commission
902
00:41:47,740 --> 00:41:51,615
in Delhi or Pakistan,
903
00:41:51,615 --> 00:41:52,407
Karachi,
904
00:41:52,407 --> 00:41:54,532
to get the entry certificates.
905
00:41:54,532 --> 00:41:58,407
It could be given
from this country...
906
00:41:58,407 --> 00:42:02,366
...and therefore people
don't have to wait 21 months
907
00:42:02,366 --> 00:42:04,574
before they can join
their husbands
908
00:42:04,574 --> 00:42:08,324
and before fathers
can see their children.
909
00:42:08,324 --> 00:42:12,700
So, I've come to you to see
if we can sort of arrange
910
00:42:12,700 --> 00:42:17,700
whereby we can fetch over
100, 200 or 300 wives...
911
00:42:19,449 --> 00:42:22,700
...of patrioles
into this country,
912
00:42:22,700 --> 00:42:26,199
without having to wait
in long queues
913
00:42:26,199 --> 00:42:29,783
and being messed about
for 21 months
914
00:42:29,783 --> 00:42:31,950
and maybe longer.
915
00:42:31,950 --> 00:42:34,659
Now, do you have
such contacts there?
916
00:42:34,659 --> 00:42:35,701
Yes, yes, we have.
917
00:42:35,701 --> 00:42:38,909
Do you think.... Are you
interested in doing this?
918
00:42:38,909 --> 00:42:40,200
Yes.
919
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,367
It says that, um...
920
00:42:42,742 --> 00:42:47,742
golden years for
the Pakistani in Britain.
921
00:42:47,867 --> 00:42:48,951
(Man) Hello?
922
00:42:48,951 --> 00:42:50,575
You will be delighted
to hear that
923
00:42:50,575 --> 00:42:53,450
that you could bring
your children,
924
00:42:53,450 --> 00:42:56,617
your wife from Pakistan
925
00:42:56,617 --> 00:42:59,159
and you don't have
to wait so long.
926
00:42:59,159 --> 00:43:02,367
You need a passport.
927
00:43:02,826 --> 00:43:04,492
Marriage certificate.
928
00:43:04,492 --> 00:43:07,576
And a birth certificate.
929
00:43:07,576 --> 00:43:12,493
We are bringing a flight
from Pakistan
930
00:43:12,493 --> 00:43:15,201
to carry 300 families,
931
00:43:15,201 --> 00:43:20,201
so if you like to be
one of the passengers,
932
00:43:20,868 --> 00:43:23,743
please contact us.
933
00:43:24,368 --> 00:43:25,160
And especially, you see,
934
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,618
they don't have to worry
about any legal aspects
935
00:43:27,618 --> 00:43:30,243
and they don't have
to be scared
936
00:43:30,243 --> 00:43:31,119
that they'll be sent back.
937
00:43:31,119 --> 00:43:35,410
People from India,
Bangladesh, has got no fear.
938
00:43:35,410 --> 00:43:39,619
They could come,
jumping up to Britain,
939
00:43:39,619 --> 00:43:40,369
without any problem.
940
00:43:40,369 --> 00:43:43,744
But the people from Pakistan,
they've got a bit of problem,
941
00:43:43,744 --> 00:43:44,577
which I'm taking care of.
942
00:43:44,577 --> 00:43:47,078
You know, they won't have
any problem. They will come.
943
00:43:47,078 --> 00:43:50,619
After this high court
judgement, I feel,
944
00:43:50,619 --> 00:43:53,452
that if we arrange a flight,
945
00:43:53,452 --> 00:43:55,369
and people come here,
946
00:43:55,369 --> 00:43:57,536
at the airport,
the immigration officers
947
00:43:57,536 --> 00:44:01,828
will have to give them the OK
to enter the country
948
00:44:01,828 --> 00:44:04,327
as legal immigrants
949
00:44:04,327 --> 00:44:05,577
to join their husbands.
950
00:44:05,577 --> 00:44:06,786
What airline
will accept them?
951
00:44:06,786 --> 00:44:11,161
Of course, they're all
immigrants, all of them.
952
00:44:11,161 --> 00:44:12,453
If you like...
953
00:44:12,453 --> 00:44:13,662
- Yeah.
- Yes.
954
00:44:13,662 --> 00:44:16,578
We are bringing them by Russian
Airlines. No, let them...
955
00:44:16,578 --> 00:44:20,079
No, we'll even
bring them by Air India.
956
00:44:20,079 --> 00:44:21,079
No, no.
957
00:44:21,079 --> 00:44:21,704
British Airways.
958
00:44:21,704 --> 00:44:23,620
We'll bring them by British
Airways and Air India.
959
00:44:23,620 --> 00:44:27,704
Look, we've got a very small
country over here, very small,
960
00:44:27,704 --> 00:44:30,286
compared to, you know,
the world,
961
00:44:30,286 --> 00:44:32,537
- a tiny little country.
- Yeah.
962
00:44:32,537 --> 00:44:33,704
Why overpopulate it?
963
00:44:33,704 --> 00:44:36,245
Why make it worse
for everybody that's here?
964
00:44:36,245 --> 00:44:37,245
No, it's not overcrowded.
965
00:44:37,245 --> 00:44:38,745
Listen, why did they
come in the first place?
966
00:44:38,745 --> 00:44:43,745
You tell me, why did they
come here in the first place?
967
00:44:43,787 --> 00:44:44,496
Why did they come?
968
00:44:44,496 --> 00:44:45,496
Why did somebody
allow them to come here?
969
00:44:45,496 --> 00:44:48,038
Because they did think they'd
have a better life over here.
970
00:44:48,038 --> 00:44:51,038
No, why did somebody
allow them here?
971
00:44:51,038 --> 00:44:52,621
- Because they...
- They needed 'em.
972
00:44:52,621 --> 00:44:55,871
- Yeah, they needed them, right?
- They needed them then.
973
00:44:55,871 --> 00:44:56,996
Yeah, but they don't
need 'em now.
974
00:44:56,996 --> 00:44:58,496
You can't say it like that,
they don't need them now.
975
00:44:58,496 --> 00:45:00,663
They just keep the manpower
and they don't...
976
00:45:00,663 --> 00:45:04,371
they don't want their wives
and children.
977
00:45:04,371 --> 00:45:05,871
Why is that?
978
00:45:05,871 --> 00:45:07,538
I know what we're gonna do.
979
00:45:07,538 --> 00:45:10,913
We are going to bring
three loads of aeroplanes,
980
00:45:10,913 --> 00:45:14,246
three loads, and we'll see
what the Home Office does.
981
00:45:14,246 --> 00:45:17,039
We are going to bring
three loads of aeroplanes
982
00:45:17,039 --> 00:45:18,622
full up with wives and children,
983
00:45:18,622 --> 00:45:22,247
which have been stranded in
India, Pakistan, Bangladesh,
984
00:45:22,247 --> 00:45:24,831
right into Heathrow Airport,
Gatwick Airport,
985
00:45:24,831 --> 00:45:26,205
Stansted and Luton Airport.
986
00:45:26,205 --> 00:45:29,247
- Is that all?
- No, maybe we'll bring more.
987
00:45:29,247 --> 00:45:32,039
It's a matter
of opening a floodgate.
988
00:45:32,039 --> 00:45:36,997
If we open this, we open
the floodgate to everybody,
989
00:45:36,997 --> 00:45:38,039
to the world.
990
00:45:38,039 --> 00:45:42,706
The British islands are swamped.
They can't take any more people!
991
00:45:42,706 --> 00:45:45,497
My wife and my children
have to stay with me.
992
00:45:45,497 --> 00:45:46,455
Yes, your wife and children...
993
00:45:46,455 --> 00:45:49,957
But if they're allowed to come
here, and they're not allowed.
994
00:45:49,957 --> 00:45:53,540
That's what we're going to
request, the British Government.
995
00:45:53,540 --> 00:45:55,832
To be more human. They're not.
996
00:45:55,832 --> 00:45:57,665
At least some of their officers.
997
00:45:57,665 --> 00:46:02,165
They don't want to
consider us on equal par.
998
00:46:02,165 --> 00:46:06,206
What they want, to give
the rights to you as white man.
999
00:46:06,206 --> 00:46:07,289
We have the same rights.
1000
00:46:07,289 --> 00:46:10,248
Either they shouldn't
admit us in this country.
1001
00:46:10,248 --> 00:46:13,456
If they have... if they have...
1002
00:46:13,456 --> 00:46:16,124
we are working very honourably,
1003
00:46:16,124 --> 00:46:21,124
we are living very, very,
very honestly, hard-working.
1004
00:46:21,373 --> 00:46:24,791
We work... It is eight o'clock
and I'm still working.
1005
00:46:24,791 --> 00:46:28,374
I earn my living and I earn
the right to bring my family
1006
00:46:28,374 --> 00:46:30,125
to enjoy the benefits
of my work
1007
00:46:30,125 --> 00:46:34,791
and they can't do that in India
or Pakistan or Bangladesh.
1008
00:46:34,791 --> 00:46:35,708
They have to be here
1009
00:46:35,708 --> 00:46:39,624
so that my children can be here
to enjoy all the benefits,
1010
00:46:39,624 --> 00:46:44,207
which by my hard work
I deserve in this country.
1011
00:46:44,207 --> 00:46:45,083
I deserve as much as you.
1012
00:46:45,083 --> 00:46:50,083
First of all, my criticism is
that the adventure is ill-timed
1013
00:46:51,125 --> 00:46:52,374
in the sense that
1014
00:46:52,374 --> 00:46:56,417
the divisional court
is considering that matter.
1015
00:46:56,417 --> 00:46:58,583
It might prejudice
their decision.
1016
00:46:58,583 --> 00:47:03,208
Secondly, that the way
it has been propagated,
1017
00:47:03,208 --> 00:47:05,333
that they don't need
an entry certificate,
1018
00:47:05,333 --> 00:47:08,583
that it has already
been decided by court.
1019
00:47:08,583 --> 00:47:10,917
I'm just saying
they don't need the law.
1020
00:47:10,917 --> 00:47:12,042
That's my view as a lawyer.
1021
00:47:12,042 --> 00:47:15,709
But when you tell the people
the law has already decided,
1022
00:47:15,709 --> 00:47:17,333
now that is a mischief.
1023
00:47:17,333 --> 00:47:19,709
It's the wrong way to put it.
1024
00:47:19,709 --> 00:47:22,375
The way it has been advertised
in the court of appeal
1025
00:47:22,375 --> 00:47:25,084
has now said Pakistanis
don't need entry certificate,
1026
00:47:25,084 --> 00:47:26,750
the court of appeal
has not said.
1027
00:47:26,750 --> 00:47:30,876
So one thing was that is
a wrong way to inform people.
1028
00:47:30,876 --> 00:47:33,543
And secondly, I come back
with the same thing.
1029
00:47:33,543 --> 00:47:36,793
That people ought to know
what risk they are taking.
1030
00:47:36,793 --> 00:47:40,543
If they are taking, knowingly,
they are taking risk,
1031
00:47:40,543 --> 00:47:43,459
if they know
when they are in the air,
1032
00:47:43,459 --> 00:47:45,292
before they land at the airport,
1033
00:47:45,292 --> 00:47:47,835
that all may not be
lovely and green,
1034
00:47:47,835 --> 00:47:50,001
they might have to stay
in detention
1035
00:47:50,001 --> 00:47:52,292
and are ready to fight
for their rights,
1036
00:47:52,292 --> 00:47:54,292
then I'm all for it.
1037
00:47:54,292 --> 00:47:57,001
Mr Dooley, how about
a nice cup of coffee
1038
00:47:57,001 --> 00:47:59,168
and we sit down
and we have a little talk.
1039
00:47:59,168 --> 00:48:01,128
What about Coca-Cola?
1040
00:48:01,128 --> 00:48:01,877
Better still.
1041
00:48:01,877 --> 00:48:05,627
Cheers, man. Best of luck.
1042
00:48:09,961 --> 00:48:12,711
(Speaking Urdu)
1043
00:48:14,794 --> 00:48:16,794
I made a terrible mistake.
1044
00:48:16,794 --> 00:48:18,252
My brother-in-law
came from Finland
1045
00:48:18,252 --> 00:48:20,086
and I took him
down Hatton Garden
1046
00:48:20,086 --> 00:48:21,169
and I just bought him a watch.
1047
00:48:21,169 --> 00:48:22,335
(Mr Dooley) You are very angry?
1048
00:48:22,335 --> 00:48:25,460
(Mr Davis) No,
I didn't know he sold watches.
1049
00:48:25,460 --> 00:48:27,544
Let my advertisement
go through first.
1050
00:48:27,544 --> 00:48:27,961
Yes.
1051
00:48:27,961 --> 00:48:29,752
It will take another...
about a week.
1052
00:48:29,752 --> 00:48:33,129
You know, this advertisement
may come this Saturday.
1053
00:48:33,129 --> 00:48:33,545
Yes.
1054
00:48:33,545 --> 00:48:37,420
And it reads... should I show...
should I read, would you say?
1055
00:48:37,420 --> 00:48:37,962
Please.
1056
00:48:37,962 --> 00:48:39,712
In Urdu or in English or what?
1057
00:48:39,712 --> 00:48:40,670
Well, I don't understand Urdu.
1058
00:48:40,670 --> 00:48:41,920
You'll have to tell me
in English what it means.
1059
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:46,211
Yeah, it's written, how many
beds you've got in your house.
1060
00:48:46,211 --> 00:48:47,129
In your home.
1061
00:48:47,129 --> 00:48:51,962
Um... how many trees
are in the lawn.
1062
00:48:51,962 --> 00:48:53,837
And what is the colour
of your dog.
1063
00:48:53,837 --> 00:48:56,003
And how many animals
you got in the house.
1064
00:48:56,003 --> 00:48:57,378
(Mr Davis) What do they
want to know that for?
1065
00:48:57,378 --> 00:49:01,170
Yeah, but this is what these
people are asked in Pakistan.
1066
00:49:01,170 --> 00:49:04,336
So these are the questions
which are asked
1067
00:49:04,336 --> 00:49:08,462
by the entry...
the entry visa officer
1068
00:49:08,462 --> 00:49:10,671
in British High Commission
in Pakistan.
1069
00:49:10,671 --> 00:49:12,879
(Mr Davis) How many trees
they got in the house?
1070
00:49:12,879 --> 00:49:15,879
- What, in Pakistan or here?
- In Pakistan.
1071
00:49:15,879 --> 00:49:16,713
And if they don't know,
1072
00:49:16,713 --> 00:49:19,254
they don't think that
they are the right people.
1073
00:49:19,254 --> 00:49:20,754
If they don't answer
the right question
1074
00:49:20,754 --> 00:49:22,004
they say no,
we don't give you visa.
1075
00:49:22,004 --> 00:49:24,130
Well, I've been living
in a house 17 years.
1076
00:49:24,130 --> 00:49:26,421
I don't know how many trees
I've got in my house.
1077
00:49:26,421 --> 00:49:29,088
So therefore
I can't go anywhere.
1078
00:49:29,088 --> 00:49:31,130
This is how they prolong it.
1079
00:49:31,130 --> 00:49:33,963
This is how they prolong
the... the dates.
1080
00:49:33,963 --> 00:49:35,796
They give them...
keep giving them dates
1081
00:49:35,796 --> 00:49:37,421
until somebody pay
them the money.
1082
00:49:37,421 --> 00:49:39,630
And they ask them
the colour of the...
1083
00:49:39,630 --> 00:49:41,922
Yeah, the colour of the dog.
1084
00:49:41,922 --> 00:49:42,714
The colour of the dog.
1085
00:49:42,714 --> 00:49:46,296
Do they ask how many times
the dog has a piss each day?
1086
00:49:46,296 --> 00:49:48,338
Yeah, of course they do.
1087
00:49:48,338 --> 00:49:49,338
They ask them.
1088
00:49:49,338 --> 00:49:50,880
And if they can't answer them,
1089
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:52,213
they don't give them
any entry permit.
1090
00:49:52,213 --> 00:49:56,839
No, why Home Office should
write a letter to me? Why?
1091
00:49:56,839 --> 00:49:59,296
They're very worried.
They're worried.
1092
00:49:59,296 --> 00:50:02,588
If the law is all right,
why should they write to me?
1093
00:50:02,588 --> 00:50:04,213
Who wrote it?
1094
00:50:04,213 --> 00:50:05,047
Yeah.
1095
00:50:05,047 --> 00:50:06,755
God Almighty.
1096
00:50:06,755 --> 00:50:08,380
Hello?
1097
00:50:08,380 --> 00:50:10,756
That's right, yes.
1098
00:50:10,756 --> 00:50:13,464
Mr who?
Oh, yes, he's here, yes.
1099
00:50:13,464 --> 00:50:16,214
One second, please, yes.
1100
00:50:16,214 --> 00:50:17,631
For you.
1101
00:50:17,631 --> 00:50:19,589
Hullo.
1102
00:50:21,214 --> 00:50:26,214
I've been informed that you
must have no dealings with me.
1103
00:50:28,048 --> 00:50:32,090
Is that... is that
what you're saying?
1104
00:50:32,132 --> 00:50:37,132
Yes, Mr Dooley has been
over to my office to see me
1105
00:50:37,673 --> 00:50:41,923
to discuss this plane
we're bringing in tomorrow.
1106
00:50:41,923 --> 00:50:44,716
Can I help him with it?
1107
00:50:44,716 --> 00:50:49,674
Yes, well, we've got...
no, we've got a letter from you.
1108
00:50:50,257 --> 00:50:51,882
It says that, er...
1109
00:50:51,882 --> 00:50:53,549
the Minister of State,
Mr Lyon,
1110
00:50:53,549 --> 00:50:56,298
has asked me to express
to you his concern
1111
00:50:56,298 --> 00:50:57,174
about this advertisement
1112
00:50:57,174 --> 00:51:01,674
and to endorse the observations
of Mr Sibghat Kadri.
1113
00:51:01,674 --> 00:51:04,924
Who's Mr Sibg...
I know Mr Kadi.
1114
00:51:04,924 --> 00:51:07,174
Kadri. I know him well,
1115
00:51:07,174 --> 00:51:08,174
and he's only a young barrister.
1116
00:51:08,174 --> 00:51:12,091
I mean, the barristers
that Mr Dooley has been to
1117
00:51:12,091 --> 00:51:15,174
are very senior members
of the bar.
1118
00:51:15,174 --> 00:51:18,758
I mean they're
real pukka barristers
1119
00:51:18,758 --> 00:51:23,758
and, er, the advice
he's got from them is OK.
1120
00:51:24,341 --> 00:51:26,675
Bring them in.
1121
00:51:34,341 --> 00:51:37,092
Just like that?
1122
00:51:37,216 --> 00:51:38,800
Yes, well, when... Right.
1123
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,134
Well, then, Justice Denning,
1124
00:51:41,134 --> 00:51:44,008
Lord Justice Denning,
if he will issue...
1125
00:51:44,008 --> 00:51:47,758
(Clears throat) ...corpus
habeus, mandamus papers...
1126
00:51:47,758 --> 00:51:49,718
I don't see
how you can return them.
1127
00:51:49,718 --> 00:51:51,592
It'd be contempt of court.
1128
00:51:51,592 --> 00:51:54,467
(Clears throat) Mr Wicks.
1129
00:51:55,384 --> 00:52:00,384
But, Mr Wicks, in all fairness,
I told Mr Dooley to cancel it.
1130
00:52:00,718 --> 00:52:03,259
I've tried to tell him
to cancel it.
1131
00:52:03,259 --> 00:52:06,051
Because I told him
that it's silly.
1132
00:52:06,051 --> 00:52:09,551
He should hire a ship, a boat.
1133
00:52:09,551 --> 00:52:12,009
A great big boat.
1134
00:52:12,759 --> 00:52:15,551
Well, if there's nothing
further you can add,
1135
00:52:15,551 --> 00:52:17,342
then we'll have to see
and wait to...
1136
00:52:17,342 --> 00:52:20,135
wait and see what happens.
1137
00:52:20,135 --> 00:52:22,260
Ah, bye-bye.
1138
00:52:22,260 --> 00:52:23,260
He's gone mad.
1139
00:52:23,260 --> 00:52:24,136
Nothing further I can add,
1140
00:52:24,136 --> 00:52:27,719
these people will be
returned and...
1141
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:28,301
Yeah.
1142
00:52:28,301 --> 00:52:30,136
So the next meeting
will be in a hall?
1143
00:52:30,136 --> 00:52:32,510
Yeah. Would you arrange
for a hall, or what?
1144
00:52:32,510 --> 00:52:36,635
Well, I had to tell him that
we've got a ship coming over.
1145
00:52:36,635 --> 00:52:37,427
Get them all worried.
1146
00:52:37,427 --> 00:52:39,136
And there's a plane
coming over tomorrow.
1147
00:52:39,136 --> 00:52:41,427
And you can bet your life
that down at the airport
1148
00:52:41,427 --> 00:52:44,136
there'll be about 600
immigration officers.
1149
00:52:44,136 --> 00:52:45,927
So we'll give
the poor immigrants
1150
00:52:45,927 --> 00:52:47,260
a chance in Dover to get in.
1151
00:52:47,260 --> 00:52:50,177
Cos there'll be no immigration
officers in Dover.
1152
00:52:50,177 --> 00:52:53,386
They're gonna transfer
them all to Heathrow.
1153
00:52:53,386 --> 00:52:53,886
Yeah.
1154
00:52:53,886 --> 00:52:56,469
With all the Securicor people.
1155
00:52:56,469 --> 00:52:56,928
Yeah.
1156
00:52:56,928 --> 00:52:59,302
Which is good because I've got
some people coming in Dover
1157
00:52:59,302 --> 00:53:01,511
so I don't want to
get them aggravation.
1158
00:53:01,511 --> 00:53:05,678
So they'll be able to come in.
Let's divert 'em, shall we?
1159
00:53:05,678 --> 00:53:06,137
Yeah.
1160
00:53:06,137 --> 00:53:07,386
We'll tell 'em
they're coming to Heathrow.
1161
00:53:07,386 --> 00:53:09,011
We'll get the plane
to land at Gatwick
1162
00:53:09,011 --> 00:53:11,928
and we'll have those immigration
officers running up and down.
1163
00:53:11,928 --> 00:53:15,178
They'll be giddy. They won't
know where they're running.
1164
00:53:15,178 --> 00:53:16,178
OK, then, Mr Dooley.
1165
00:53:16,178 --> 00:53:17,803
OK, then. Fine.
Thanks a lot.
1166
00:53:17,803 --> 00:53:18,469
And I'll see you.
1167
00:53:18,469 --> 00:53:21,428
Yes. Thank you for calling
and that's lovely.
1168
00:53:21,428 --> 00:53:22,178
Yeah, yeah.
1169
00:53:22,178 --> 00:53:23,928
I'll have to put in
a word first, you see.
1170
00:53:23,928 --> 00:53:27,345
No, we'll fight. You ready
to fight? Then we'll fight.
1171
00:53:27,345 --> 00:53:28,929
Yeah, yes. Yes.
1172
00:53:28,929 --> 00:53:31,804
(Speaks Urdu)
1173
00:53:34,971 --> 00:53:36,512
I'm not asking any money
or anything.
1174
00:53:36,512 --> 00:53:37,721
(Mr Davis)
And therefore you should...
1175
00:53:37,721 --> 00:53:40,470
Asking people to come forward.
And let's do together.
1176
00:53:40,470 --> 00:53:42,929
(Mr Davis) Yes, but nobody's
come forward, you see?
1177
00:53:42,929 --> 00:53:44,804
You should form yourself
into a group.
1178
00:53:44,804 --> 00:53:49,345
Those long waiting queues,
they should be eliminated.
1179
00:53:49,345 --> 00:53:50,012
Yes, that's it.
1180
00:53:50,012 --> 00:53:51,887
They must make these
arrangements in such a way...
1181
00:53:51,887 --> 00:53:54,512
Yeah, well, what the public
is going to do for this?
1182
00:53:54,512 --> 00:53:56,012
So, what we people
are going to do for this?
1183
00:53:56,012 --> 00:53:59,555
Are we doing anything? Are
we writing to the Home Office?
1184
00:53:59,555 --> 00:54:02,263
We have to agitate here
to the Home Office.
1185
00:54:02,263 --> 00:54:04,847
And if you can bring
numbers, 200, 300,
1186
00:54:04,847 --> 00:54:08,388
they won't send
a planeload of people back.
1187
00:54:08,388 --> 00:54:09,847
We can have 'em out on bail.
1188
00:54:09,847 --> 00:54:13,097
We can have them out on bail
to be with you,
1189
00:54:13,097 --> 00:54:14,638
and I think you'll win the case.
1190
00:54:14,638 --> 00:54:17,055
Actually, they cannot
withstand the impact
1191
00:54:17,055 --> 00:54:19,180
which will be generated
by the numbers.
1192
00:54:19,180 --> 00:54:23,555
(Mr Davis) You've got
people fighting for you.
1193
00:54:23,555 --> 00:54:25,930
There should be
some reason why.
1194
00:54:25,930 --> 00:54:27,972
Sorry about this,
you see, and that's it.
1195
00:54:27,972 --> 00:54:30,888
I thought that you people
really need help.
1196
00:54:30,888 --> 00:54:32,556
But you don't need help, do you?
1197
00:54:32,556 --> 00:54:33,639
No, they don't need help.
1198
00:54:33,639 --> 00:54:35,889
I mean, Pakistanis
don't need help.
1199
00:54:35,889 --> 00:54:36,681
What help do you need?
1200
00:54:36,681 --> 00:54:38,973
They think everybody on fast
now. They're too tired to come.
1201
00:54:38,973 --> 00:54:40,556
Yeah, that's a possibility,
you know.
1202
00:54:40,556 --> 00:54:43,723
Tomorrow is a festival,
you see. Today's a fast.
1203
00:54:43,723 --> 00:54:44,639
What, tomorrow's Ramadan?
1204
00:54:44,639 --> 00:54:47,347
Yes, end of Ramadan
tomorrow, yes.
1205
00:54:47,347 --> 00:54:48,098
The end of Ramadan?
1206
00:54:48,098 --> 00:54:50,681
It's a feast day, you know,
it's a holiday.
1207
00:54:50,681 --> 00:54:51,639
All right, OK.
1208
00:54:51,639 --> 00:54:52,597
We're fasting for Ramadan.
1209
00:54:52,597 --> 00:54:56,264
All right, we'll go along then.
We'll speak to them tomorrow.
1210
00:54:56,264 --> 00:54:57,431
- Yes.
- It's a good idea.
1211
00:54:57,431 --> 00:54:58,848
That's what we should have
done in the first place.
1212
00:54:58,848 --> 00:55:01,347
Gone to the mosques.
In the first place.
1213
00:55:01,347 --> 00:55:03,514
Yeah, you're right.
1214
00:55:13,015 --> 00:55:15,974
Well, the people here
in this country,
1215
00:55:15,974 --> 00:55:17,765
who are living here, you see,
1216
00:55:17,765 --> 00:55:21,099
they are living
scattered all over
1217
00:55:21,099 --> 00:55:23,890
and they're not organised.
1218
00:55:23,890 --> 00:55:28,306
That has been the main,
you see, difficulty,
1219
00:55:28,306 --> 00:55:30,974
that, as you have
witnessed inside,
1220
00:55:30,974 --> 00:55:35,640
that there has not been
a good gathering over here.
1221
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:39,433
I mean, some of us...
for instance, myself,
1222
00:55:39,433 --> 00:55:42,142
I'm not faced
with any difficulty
1223
00:55:42,142 --> 00:55:44,307
so far as this problem
is concerned.
1224
00:55:44,307 --> 00:55:47,433
But I'm interested
in the problem itself
1225
00:55:47,433 --> 00:55:48,683
and its solution,
1226
00:55:48,683 --> 00:55:53,683
because the solution,
it is so, so difficult
1227
00:55:54,850 --> 00:55:56,474
for the Pakistanis
1228
00:55:56,474 --> 00:56:01,474
that so far
we haven't seen anything,
1229
00:56:01,558 --> 00:56:03,016
you see, coming out.
1230
00:56:03,016 --> 00:56:08,016
People whose wives
are waiting to join them,
1231
00:56:08,433 --> 00:56:11,225
they are giving dates.
1232
00:56:12,059 --> 00:56:16,684
Their applications
to be examined in Islamabad
1233
00:56:16,684 --> 00:56:19,434
in 1977.
1234
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:21,059
You see?
1235
00:56:21,059 --> 00:56:26,059
For instance, this gentleman,
his daughter, you see,
1236
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:31,308
has applied
to come to her father,
1237
00:56:31,308 --> 00:56:34,517
and she has applied
in Islamabad,
1238
00:56:34,517 --> 00:56:36,642
and she has been given a date
1239
00:56:36,642 --> 00:56:39,726
for her application
to be examined
1240
00:56:39,726 --> 00:56:42,935
and for her
to be interviewed
1241
00:56:42,935 --> 00:56:45,226
in July '77.
1242
00:56:45,226 --> 00:56:47,768
When did she apply?
1243
00:56:47,768 --> 00:56:49,435
About six month ago.
1244
00:56:49,435 --> 00:56:51,060
She applied six months ago.
1245
00:56:51,060 --> 00:56:53,144
And she was already
in this country
1246
00:56:53,144 --> 00:56:55,185
over four and a half years,
1247
00:56:55,185 --> 00:56:57,560
and she went back in 1969.
1248
00:56:57,560 --> 00:56:59,768
What kind of business
are you doing here?
1249
00:56:59,768 --> 00:57:04,060
(Ben Lewin) I'm making a film
about it, about these problems.
1250
00:57:04,060 --> 00:57:06,435
Well, how do you like
this jacket?
1251
00:57:06,435 --> 00:57:08,435
- (Ben Lewin) How do I like it?
- Yes.
1252
00:57:08,435 --> 00:57:11,060
(Ben Lewin)
I've had it for ten years.
1253
00:57:11,060 --> 00:57:12,268
- Ten years?
- Yes.
1254
00:57:12,268 --> 00:57:15,394
It's time
you had a new one now.
1255
00:57:15,394 --> 00:57:16,894
- You think so?
- Yes.
1256
00:57:16,894 --> 00:57:17,853
I'm very attached to this one.
1257
00:57:17,853 --> 00:57:22,145
Oh, it's very nice, but we are
dealing in leather jackets.
1258
00:57:22,145 --> 00:57:22,936
(Ben Lewin) Oh, yeah?
1259
00:57:22,936 --> 00:57:24,436
We are dealing
in leather jackets,
1260
00:57:24,436 --> 00:57:27,853
and actually these are
very expensive garments.
1261
00:57:27,853 --> 00:57:30,186
But we'll do a deal,
cheap for you,
1262
00:57:30,186 --> 00:57:32,145
since you are interested
in our problems.
1263
00:57:32,145 --> 00:57:36,769
(Ben Lewin) Mm. You'll also
take interest in mine?
1264
00:57:36,769 --> 00:57:37,269
Yes. Yes.
1265
00:57:37,269 --> 00:57:40,602
(Ben Lewin) Well, I've never
really regarded this jacket
1266
00:57:40,602 --> 00:57:43,436
as one of my problems.
1267
00:58:02,270 --> 00:58:04,228
Thanet House.
1268
00:58:04,228 --> 00:58:07,146
And we go in there.
1269
00:58:12,020 --> 00:58:13,187
- (Woman coughs)
- All right.
1270
00:58:13,187 --> 00:58:14,729
Would you like to go
in the waiting room?
1271
00:58:14,729 --> 00:58:16,770
We're gonna have
a colonial hearing today.
1272
00:58:16,770 --> 00:58:18,395
Of course. In there.
1273
00:58:18,395 --> 00:58:20,229
Now, I've forgot my native boy.
1274
00:58:20,229 --> 00:58:24,271
He's coming along
with a palm leaf in a minute
1275
00:58:24,271 --> 00:58:26,688
and he's wearing a loincloth.
1276
00:58:26,688 --> 00:58:27,147
Is he?
1277
00:58:27,147 --> 00:58:30,229
So, please show him
the way to the waiting room.
1278
00:58:30,229 --> 00:58:30,730
I will.
1279
00:58:30,730 --> 00:58:34,980
Right, and my two bearers
will come along in a minute.
1280
00:58:34,980 --> 00:58:37,229
- Is that OK?
- (Laughing) Yes, sir.
1281
00:58:37,229 --> 00:58:40,063
Are you calling
any more witnesses?
1282
00:58:40,063 --> 00:58:40,896
Er... yes.
1283
00:58:40,896 --> 00:58:42,938
The names were all taken,
weren't they?
1284
00:58:42,938 --> 00:58:46,063
The coach will be along
in about one hour.
1285
00:58:46,063 --> 00:58:46,813
(They laugh)
1286
00:58:46,813 --> 00:58:49,271
You'd had two witnesses,
hadn't you?
1287
00:58:49,271 --> 00:58:49,771
Yes.
1288
00:58:49,771 --> 00:58:51,147
And there's one more to go.
1289
00:58:51,147 --> 00:58:53,981
Yes, we have
this gentleman to go.
1290
00:58:53,981 --> 00:58:54,731
Oh, fine. Any more?
1291
00:58:54,731 --> 00:58:58,355
The coach. I don't know what
time the coach will be down.
1292
00:58:58,355 --> 00:58:59,148
Are you joking?
1293
00:58:59,148 --> 00:59:00,230
No, they've just come off...
1294
00:59:00,230 --> 00:59:03,772
They've just come off.
The plane has just landed.
1295
00:59:03,772 --> 00:59:06,064
With the 72 Pakistanis.
1296
00:59:06,064 --> 00:59:06,689
(Woman laughs)
1297
00:59:06,689 --> 00:59:08,564
They'll be along soon.
They're coming straight along.
1298
00:59:08,564 --> 00:59:11,939
Right. We're in
the big tribunal room.
1299
00:59:11,939 --> 00:59:13,313
Are we? That's fine.
1300
00:59:13,313 --> 00:59:16,647
I never know whether
he's joking or not.
1301
00:59:16,897 --> 00:59:19,022
- It's hot in Africa.
- I was gonna say.
1302
00:59:19,022 --> 00:59:21,480
It's goddamn hot
in this midday sun.
1303
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:26,481
- Mr McCall will like that.
- Tigers all around me.
1304
00:59:26,732 --> 00:59:29,898
There we are. Have you
already been a witness?
1305
00:59:29,898 --> 00:59:30,356
Yeah.
1306
00:59:30,356 --> 00:59:32,523
Oh, so you can sit
anywhere you like.
1307
00:59:32,523 --> 00:59:36,523
And do you want him...
Shall I sit him there?
1308
00:59:36,523 --> 00:59:38,606
You're gonna be straightaway...
1309
00:59:38,606 --> 00:59:41,565
(Mr Davis) Isn't it a fact
you refused these people
1310
00:59:41,565 --> 00:59:45,314
because they were Cypriots?
1311
00:59:45,314 --> 00:59:46,690
(Man) You're coming very close
1312
00:59:46,690 --> 00:59:49,690
to attacking
this witness's character.
1313
00:59:49,690 --> 00:59:52,940
- (Mr Davis) Am I really?
- (Man) Yes.
1314
00:59:54,023 --> 00:59:55,940
(Mr Davis) Do you know
a Chirin Gheling?
1315
00:59:55,940 --> 00:59:57,691
(Man) Well, do you know
a Mr Chirin Gheling?
1316
00:59:57,691 --> 00:59:59,607
(Man 2) Yes, he's
the Chief Immigration Officer
1317
00:59:59,607 --> 01:00:02,399
mentioned in the last
paragraph here.
1318
01:00:02,399 --> 01:00:04,649
(Mr Davis) Very well.
Did you know what...
1319
01:00:04,649 --> 01:00:07,232
did you know that
Mr Chirin Gheling told me
1320
01:00:07,232 --> 01:00:09,774
that he doesn't like Cypriots,
they're all liars?
1321
01:00:09,774 --> 01:00:12,024
(Mr McCall) Mr...
Don't answer that question.
1322
01:00:12,024 --> 01:00:12,941
It's completely irrelevant.
1323
01:00:12,941 --> 01:00:14,066
(Mr Davis) I'm asking
if he knows about it.
1324
01:00:14,066 --> 01:00:16,274
(Mr McCall) Well, I'm telling
him not to answer it.
1325
01:00:16,274 --> 01:00:16,941
(Mr Davis) Why?
1326
01:00:16,941 --> 01:00:18,733
(Mr McCall) Because
it's completely irrelevant.
1327
01:00:18,733 --> 01:00:19,649
(Mr Davis) Why?
1328
01:00:19,649 --> 01:00:21,774
(Mr McCall) Because I say so.
1329
01:00:21,774 --> 01:00:24,108
(Mr Davis) Why?
1330
01:00:24,108 --> 01:00:26,607
(Mr McCall) Mr Davis,
please get on with it.
1331
01:00:26,607 --> 01:00:29,232
(Mr Davis) The reason
for not letting this man in
1332
01:00:29,232 --> 01:00:33,608
was that you thought
he had too much money.
1333
01:00:33,608 --> 01:00:34,942
£550.
1334
01:00:34,942 --> 01:00:37,775
(Mr Gaughn) One of the
reasons was that, er...
1335
01:00:37,775 --> 01:00:42,775
his funds compared
with his, um... salary
1336
01:00:42,942 --> 01:00:47,151
initially, as the driver
of a shunting locomotive
1337
01:00:47,151 --> 01:00:51,984
and then subsequently
after being a refugee,
1338
01:00:51,984 --> 01:00:54,109
um...
1339
01:00:54,275 --> 01:00:55,984
...as the driver of a bulldozer,
1340
01:00:55,984 --> 01:01:00,109
that, er... he seemed
to have a lot of money
1341
01:01:00,109 --> 01:01:02,860
compared with his earnings.
1342
01:01:02,860 --> 01:01:04,193
(Mr Davis) Well,
on the same flight
1343
01:01:04,193 --> 01:01:06,860
there was a chap
by the name of Chris Ndulu.
1344
01:01:06,860 --> 01:01:11,860
He was sent back because
he never had enough money.
1345
01:01:13,026 --> 01:01:16,276
He only had £320.
1346
01:01:16,401 --> 01:01:18,152
On himself.
Now, what's enough money?
1347
01:01:18,152 --> 01:01:20,276
I want to ascertain
what is enough money.
1348
01:01:20,276 --> 01:01:22,317
(Mr McCall) Don't answer
that question. It's irrelevant.
1349
01:01:22,317 --> 01:01:24,860
(Mr Davis) I think it's a lot
of rubbish with you people!
1350
01:01:24,860 --> 01:01:26,359
You look at a person's face
1351
01:01:26,359 --> 01:01:30,110
and they turn round
and say too much money,
1352
01:01:30,110 --> 01:01:31,484
not enough money.
1353
01:01:31,484 --> 01:01:32,568
You went to Greece
for a holiday.
1354
01:01:32,568 --> 01:01:35,944
How much money
did you take with you?
1355
01:01:35,944 --> 01:01:37,902
(Mr McCall) You needn't
answer that question.
1356
01:01:37,902 --> 01:01:39,111
(Mr Davis) Can't answer
this question,
1357
01:01:39,111 --> 01:01:42,235
you can't answer that question,
you can't answer this...
1358
01:01:42,235 --> 01:01:47,235
It's a perfect, legitimate,
relevant question.
1359
01:01:47,610 --> 01:01:50,485
(Mr McCaw) I don't agree
with you. Don't answer it.
1360
01:01:50,485 --> 01:01:51,986
(Mr Davis) Because
I know people here,
1361
01:01:51,986 --> 01:01:54,777
that come over here,
to this country...
1362
01:01:54,777 --> 01:01:58,235
Six weeks ago,
an Arab come to this country
1363
01:01:58,235 --> 01:02:00,819
and, sir, these people said,
1364
01:02:00,819 --> 01:02:03,194
"Are you gonna work
in this country?"
1365
01:02:03,194 --> 01:02:03,944
Man says no.
1366
01:02:03,944 --> 01:02:07,111
"If I gave you a chance
to work in this country..."
1367
01:02:07,111 --> 01:02:07,736
(Mr McCaw) Mm.
1368
01:02:07,736 --> 01:02:08,737
"...would you work
in this country?"
1369
01:02:08,737 --> 01:02:11,695
The Arab said, "Look at
my passport, you idiot.
1370
01:02:11,695 --> 01:02:14,070
"I'm the son
of the Sheik of Kuwait!"
1371
01:02:14,070 --> 01:02:17,195
(Mr McCaw) Mr Davis,
you really go too far.
1372
01:02:17,195 --> 01:02:18,778
Now, get on with it, please.
1373
01:02:18,778 --> 01:02:21,945
Otherwise I'll have to withdraw
my recognition of you.
1374
01:02:21,945 --> 01:02:22,737
(Mr Davis) Have to...
1375
01:02:22,737 --> 01:02:24,195
(Mr McCall) I'll have to
withdraw my recognition of you
1376
01:02:24,195 --> 01:02:27,987
as an advocate
in this, er... hearing.
1377
01:02:27,987 --> 01:02:29,570
I've got the power so to do.
1378
01:02:29,570 --> 01:02:30,528
(Mr Davis) Of course you have.
1379
01:02:30,528 --> 01:02:31,737
(Mr McCaw)
You've tried my patience...
1380
01:02:31,737 --> 01:02:34,154
(Mr Davis) Of course you have
your instructions as well
1381
01:02:34,154 --> 01:02:35,154
from the Home Office.
1382
01:02:35,154 --> 01:02:37,570
(Mr McCaw) Well, now,
under those circumstances,
1383
01:02:37,570 --> 01:02:40,654
you bring me to
the brink of withdrawing.
1384
01:02:40,654 --> 01:02:42,404
That is an infamous observation.
1385
01:02:42,404 --> 01:02:44,779
(Mr Davis)
There has been instruction...
1386
01:02:44,779 --> 01:02:46,237
There's the evidence here.
1387
01:02:46,237 --> 01:02:49,237
(Mr McCaw) I am a completely
independent adjudicator,
1388
01:02:49,237 --> 01:02:51,071
subject to no influence
whatsoever.
1389
01:02:51,071 --> 01:02:55,571
"From your conduct in this
building, as reported to me,
1390
01:02:55,571 --> 01:02:59,029
"by certain of my colleagues
and staff,
1391
01:02:59,029 --> 01:03:01,071
"I have for some time suspected
1392
01:03:01,071 --> 01:03:03,571
"that you are not a fit
and proper person
1393
01:03:03,571 --> 01:03:08,404
"to be allowed to represent
appellants before adjudicators."
1394
01:03:08,404 --> 01:03:11,779
Took 'em two years
to find out that I wasn't a...
1395
01:03:11,779 --> 01:03:13,739
fit and proper person.
1396
01:03:13,739 --> 01:03:15,905
It's up to me to decide
1397
01:03:15,905 --> 01:03:19,488
with whom the Home Office
will deal.
1398
01:03:20,363 --> 01:03:21,905
And, er...
1399
01:03:21,905 --> 01:03:25,280
where there's such
a wide range of choice
1400
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:28,238
and there is this very...
1401
01:03:28,238 --> 01:03:29,822
difficult question,
1402
01:03:29,822 --> 01:03:34,030
about the control
of a professional agent,
1403
01:03:34,030 --> 01:03:36,572
um... I think
that it's legitimate
1404
01:03:36,572 --> 01:03:38,780
to make the ruling
in the way that I did.
1405
01:03:38,780 --> 01:03:41,613
(Lewin) As you would know
from a Sunday Times comment,
1406
01:03:41,613 --> 01:03:44,156
though, there is a certain
Levantine philosophy
1407
01:03:44,156 --> 01:03:46,698
that you get only
what you pay for.
1408
01:03:46,698 --> 01:03:50,698
Well, I think there is
a feeling among some groups
1409
01:03:50,698 --> 01:03:54,948
that unless the advice
that is offered to them
1410
01:03:54,948 --> 01:03:55,740
is paid for,
1411
01:03:55,740 --> 01:03:58,157
it's unlikely to be
very sound advice,
1412
01:03:58,157 --> 01:03:59,990
but I think it's...
1413
01:03:59,990 --> 01:04:04,448
it's an attitude
that we ought to try to resist
1414
01:04:04,448 --> 01:04:07,573
because I'm absolutely certain
1415
01:04:07,573 --> 01:04:11,198
that the voluntary
organisations, by and large,
1416
01:04:11,198 --> 01:04:12,865
give excellent advice
1417
01:04:12,865 --> 01:04:15,157
and that the kind
of efforts that are made
1418
01:04:15,157 --> 01:04:18,615
by members of parliament
in particular
1419
01:04:18,615 --> 01:04:21,074
on behalf of constituents,
1420
01:04:21,074 --> 01:04:24,074
are... very effective,
1421
01:04:24,074 --> 01:04:27,158
and therefore it is unnecessary
1422
01:04:27,158 --> 01:04:29,907
in dealing with immigration
1423
01:04:29,907 --> 01:04:32,866
to have paid agencies,
in my view.
1424
01:04:32,866 --> 01:04:34,949
(Ben Lewin) It is unnecessary?
1425
01:04:34,949 --> 01:04:36,282
Mm.
1426
01:04:36,282 --> 01:04:37,824
(Coughs)
1427
01:04:37,824 --> 01:04:40,116
(Mr Lyon)
On 7th August this year,
1428
01:04:40,116 --> 01:04:43,032
I asked Mr Davis to see me.
1429
01:04:43,032 --> 01:04:47,574
He explained that he considered
immigration control
1430
01:04:47,574 --> 01:04:48,615
to be a joke,
1431
01:04:48,615 --> 01:04:51,950
and since the situation
was what it was
1432
01:04:51,950 --> 01:04:52,992
that he saw no reason
1433
01:04:52,992 --> 01:04:56,992
why he should not base
a business upon it.
1434
01:04:56,992 --> 01:04:59,658
There is little evidence
to show that at any stage
1435
01:04:59,658 --> 01:05:02,324
that he's done anything
that is illegal.
1436
01:05:02,324 --> 01:05:04,867
But he is the kind
of engaging conman
1437
01:05:04,867 --> 01:05:09,700
who works in the East End
markets, selling plates.
1438
01:05:09,700 --> 01:05:11,200
(People laugh)
1439
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:12,950
With people who are immigrants
1440
01:05:12,950 --> 01:05:17,825
he is a very dangerous man
indeed to be let at large.
1441
01:05:17,825 --> 01:05:18,658
(Man coughs)
1442
01:05:18,658 --> 01:05:19,783
Therefore I decided
1443
01:05:19,783 --> 01:05:24,284
that we were going to put
a stop to his activities.
1444
01:05:24,617 --> 01:05:29,118
He claims that his average
price is about £50.
1445
01:05:29,118 --> 01:05:33,118
On that basis, if my honourable
friend is right in saying
1446
01:05:33,118 --> 01:05:36,242
that he does 1,000 cases a year,
1447
01:05:36,242 --> 01:05:39,034
his average income is £50,000.
1448
01:05:39,034 --> 01:05:41,201
(Man) How are the public
to sum you up, Mr Davis?
1449
01:05:41,201 --> 01:05:43,576
Your sincerity might bring
tears to their eyes.
1450
01:05:43,576 --> 01:05:45,701
At the same time
they might feel that
1451
01:05:45,701 --> 01:05:48,242
no minister would call you
an East End conman
1452
01:05:48,242 --> 01:05:49,826
if he didn't have some facts
to back him up.
1453
01:05:49,826 --> 01:05:52,743
(Mr Davis) He's accused me of
selling plates off of a barrow.
1454
01:05:52,743 --> 01:05:56,161
There's nothing wrong in
selling plates off of a barrow.
1455
01:05:56,161 --> 01:05:58,577
Maybe Alex Lyon doesn't
eat off plates.
1456
01:05:58,577 --> 01:06:01,702
Maybe he eats off the floor.
I don't know.
1457
01:06:01,702 --> 01:06:05,535
Mr Lyon said in Parliament
that you earn £50,000 a year.
1458
01:06:05,535 --> 01:06:07,702
He said you told him that.
Is that true?
1459
01:06:07,702 --> 01:06:12,702
No, I told Alex Lyon
that I earn £50,000 a week.
1460
01:06:12,827 --> 01:06:13,410
Not a year.
1461
01:06:13,410 --> 01:06:16,618
Because Alex Lyon,
after five minutes,
1462
01:06:16,618 --> 01:06:18,660
I realised I was
talking to a nut.
1463
01:06:18,660 --> 01:06:23,660
I... I run my organisation
in this manner.
1464
01:06:23,827 --> 01:06:26,285
People who can afford to pay
1465
01:06:26,285 --> 01:06:30,036
subsidise the people
who cannot afford to pay.
1466
01:06:30,036 --> 01:06:33,369
And I say that I earn about
seven and a half thousand.
1467
01:06:33,369 --> 01:06:37,578
About seven and a half thousand
to ten thousand a year.
1468
01:06:37,578 --> 01:06:41,036
Alex Lyon can make
any allegation he likes.
1469
01:06:41,036 --> 01:06:42,703
When I was with Alex Lyon,
1470
01:06:42,703 --> 01:06:45,911
and he told me
he wants to be a priest,
1471
01:06:45,911 --> 01:06:47,453
and I said, "Well,
good luck to you,
1472
01:06:47,453 --> 01:06:49,036
"I hope you'll be
a bishop one day
1473
01:06:49,036 --> 01:06:51,411
"and I can become your curate."
1474
01:06:51,411 --> 01:06:53,536
He's gonna be a parish priest?
God help us.
1475
01:06:53,536 --> 01:06:56,494
He'll be worse than
Oliver Cromwell, won't he?
1476
01:06:56,494 --> 01:06:57,078
(Laughs)
1477
01:06:57,078 --> 01:06:58,203
They've done
some shocking things.
1478
01:06:58,203 --> 01:07:01,912
I think when anyone takes
a young girl of 13 years of age
1479
01:07:01,912 --> 01:07:03,287
for no apparent reason
1480
01:07:03,287 --> 01:07:04,954
and sticks 'em
in a concentration camp...
1481
01:07:04,954 --> 01:07:07,412
Because we've got concentration
camps in this country.
1482
01:07:07,412 --> 01:07:11,662
I took a lady out of the
concentration camp last week.
1483
01:07:11,662 --> 01:07:13,495
She was there
six months pregnant
1484
01:07:13,495 --> 01:07:15,746
and she has been there
for seven weeks.
1485
01:07:15,746 --> 01:07:16,662
She committed no crime.
1486
01:07:16,662 --> 01:07:19,079
She came over here
to join her husband.
1487
01:07:19,079 --> 01:07:21,954
Yeah, it's a legal right
for a woman to join her husband.
1488
01:07:21,954 --> 01:07:23,787
He is a resident
in this country.
1489
01:07:23,787 --> 01:07:27,537
Right of abode in this country,
in the United Kingdom.
1490
01:07:27,537 --> 01:07:30,454
Why can't she join her husband?
1491
01:07:30,454 --> 01:07:34,955
So, I brought my wife with me
on 12th October
1492
01:07:34,955 --> 01:07:38,747
and then they take her
in a detention centre
1493
01:07:38,747 --> 01:07:42,080
and they locked her up
to seven weeks over there.
1494
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:44,371
- (Man) For how long?
- Seven weeks.
1495
01:07:44,371 --> 01:07:45,872
(Ben Lewin)
Which detention centre?
1496
01:07:45,872 --> 01:07:50,164
Er... Harmondsworth
Detention Centre.
1497
01:07:50,164 --> 01:07:52,955
So I have to go there.
1498
01:07:53,122 --> 01:07:54,455
If I take her any food,
1499
01:07:54,455 --> 01:07:57,747
they say the food
is not allowed,
1500
01:07:57,747 --> 01:07:59,038
and she was pregnant.
1501
01:07:59,038 --> 01:08:01,122
She had to feed two people
1502
01:08:01,122 --> 01:08:04,580
and they just giving her
only rice dinnertime,
1503
01:08:04,580 --> 01:08:05,705
and rice the night-time.
1504
01:08:05,705 --> 01:08:07,998
(Ben Lewin) How much pregnant
is she? What's her...
1505
01:08:07,998 --> 01:08:10,831
(Man) She was over
six months pregnant
1506
01:08:10,831 --> 01:08:14,873
and sometimes she was
quite hungry there.
1507
01:08:14,873 --> 01:08:17,206
(Ben Lewin)
Could she rest there?
1508
01:08:17,206 --> 01:08:19,289
She have no rest at all.
1509
01:08:19,289 --> 01:08:20,081
(Ben Lewin) Why not?
1510
01:08:20,081 --> 01:08:23,914
Because they never,
er... open her room
1511
01:08:23,914 --> 01:08:25,539
so she can lie down somewhere.
1512
01:08:25,539 --> 01:08:27,997
- (Ben Lewin) Her bedroom?
- Bedroom, yes.
1513
01:08:27,997 --> 01:08:30,081
(Ben Lewin)
Why? What happened?
1514
01:08:30,081 --> 01:08:35,081
They're locked from 9am,
nine o'clock,
1515
01:08:35,165 --> 01:08:37,664
and up till 9pm.
1516
01:08:37,664 --> 01:08:40,166
They don't open the room
till 9 or 10.
1517
01:08:40,166 --> 01:08:42,040
(Ben Lewin)
So, she couldn't lie down?
1518
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:43,665
No, she couldn't lie down.
1519
01:08:43,665 --> 01:08:47,707
If she tries, sometimes
she like to be, like relax,
1520
01:08:47,707 --> 01:08:52,124
then she have to make
two chairs together.
1521
01:08:52,124 --> 01:08:54,372
(Ben Lewin)
What did you do once...
1522
01:08:54,372 --> 01:08:57,331
once they put her inside
the detention centre?
1523
01:08:57,331 --> 01:09:01,082
Well, I went to see someone
at the detention centre.
1524
01:09:01,082 --> 01:09:04,915
I went to see
the UK Advisory Service.
1525
01:09:04,915 --> 01:09:08,582
I said, what I should do?
They said you can see your MP.
1526
01:09:08,582 --> 01:09:12,125
But our MP was sitting in
the House of Commons that time.
1527
01:09:12,125 --> 01:09:14,624
I couldn't speak
to my MP at all.
1528
01:09:14,624 --> 01:09:16,332
Then I was fail everywhere
1529
01:09:16,332 --> 01:09:19,750
then I went to see
the solicitor.
1530
01:09:19,750 --> 01:09:23,416
The solicitor said to me,
"I will take £100."
1531
01:09:23,416 --> 01:09:24,208
(Ben Lewin) How much?
1532
01:09:24,208 --> 01:09:27,916
£100, before I spoke to anybody.
1533
01:09:27,916 --> 01:09:29,416
I said OK.
1534
01:09:29,416 --> 01:09:32,041
Go ahead, I gave him £100.
1535
01:09:32,041 --> 01:09:33,666
(Ben Lewin)
What did he do for the £100?
1536
01:09:33,666 --> 01:09:36,875
Well, he just took it
and put it in his pocket.
1537
01:09:36,875 --> 01:09:38,750
(Ben Lewin)
No, but what work did he do?
1538
01:09:38,750 --> 01:09:41,291
What work he done,
he done this one.
1539
01:09:41,291 --> 01:09:43,499
He wrote a letter to MP
1540
01:09:43,499 --> 01:09:47,209
and he wrote a letter
to immigration officer
1541
01:09:47,209 --> 01:09:50,625
and he sent a copy
to the Home Office as well.
1542
01:09:50,625 --> 01:09:55,625
So, then they says, OK,
we will be... stop your wife.
1543
01:09:55,666 --> 01:10:00,666
As long as his MP
involve in this case.
1544
01:10:00,834 --> 01:10:02,375
So it was seven weeks.
1545
01:10:02,375 --> 01:10:07,333
I never heard after that what
is going on, where I'm going.
1546
01:10:07,333 --> 01:10:09,709
I got fed up, you know?
1547
01:10:09,709 --> 01:10:12,541
Then I went to Mr Davis.
1548
01:10:12,541 --> 01:10:17,460
Then he told me that...
he phoned to everywhere.
1549
01:10:17,460 --> 01:10:19,835
I mean in the journalists'
papers there's...
1550
01:10:19,835 --> 01:10:22,793
I know he done
a lot of work for me.
1551
01:10:22,793 --> 01:10:26,460
Then he put in the papers,
Times, Guardian,
1552
01:10:26,460 --> 01:10:28,460
It came to the Guardian.
1553
01:10:28,460 --> 01:10:30,293
She was released same day
1554
01:10:30,293 --> 01:10:32,626
when the article
came in the paper.
1555
01:10:32,626 --> 01:10:34,877
(Ben Lewin) Your wife doesn't
speak English, does she?
1556
01:10:34,877 --> 01:10:36,418
No, she cannot
speak English at all.
1557
01:10:36,418 --> 01:10:39,210
(Ben Lewin) What does she think
of her whole experience?
1558
01:10:39,210 --> 01:10:40,043
Was she surprised that...
1559
01:10:40,043 --> 01:10:43,460
Well, she was thinking, that
we were thinking everywhere,
1560
01:10:43,460 --> 01:10:48,460
that is Britain is very great,
very humanity over there,
1561
01:10:48,793 --> 01:10:50,710
people is nice,
1562
01:10:50,710 --> 01:10:52,210
and everything is going well,
1563
01:10:52,210 --> 01:10:54,377
people love dogs and cats.
1564
01:10:54,377 --> 01:10:56,170
But I've seen different in here.
1565
01:10:56,170 --> 01:10:57,335
People love dogs and cats.
1566
01:10:57,335 --> 01:11:01,835
They don't love people
each and other.
1567
01:11:01,835 --> 01:11:03,003
Huh?
1568
01:11:03,003 --> 01:11:05,044
So, I'm pregnant woman.
1569
01:11:05,044 --> 01:11:08,585
What I have suffer,
I know, she says.
1570
01:11:08,585 --> 01:11:12,128
But nobody else knows.
1571
01:11:12,128 --> 01:11:16,753
I don't want you to think
that I am for immigration.
1572
01:11:16,753 --> 01:11:17,419
I'm against it.
1573
01:11:17,419 --> 01:11:21,627
I don't believe we should have
a million Pakistanis over here
1574
01:11:21,627 --> 01:11:23,503
and five million Africans
1575
01:11:23,503 --> 01:11:28,503
and, er... four and a half
million West Indians.
1576
01:11:30,670 --> 01:11:31,295
I'm against...
1577
01:11:31,295 --> 01:11:35,920
But the British Government
printed a lot of passports,
1578
01:11:35,920 --> 01:11:40,253
and they didn't know what
to do with these passports.
1579
01:11:40,253 --> 01:11:41,045
They printed too many
1580
01:11:41,045 --> 01:11:43,420
and they gave them out
to all these people.
1581
01:11:43,420 --> 01:11:45,920
Well, if you give
these passports out,
1582
01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:47,378
on the front page...
I've got...
1583
01:11:47,378 --> 01:11:48,920
No, I don't think
I have mine with me.
1584
01:11:48,920 --> 01:11:50,920
But in front of the passport
it says,
1585
01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:53,045
Her Majesty
with the Privy Council...
1586
01:11:53,045 --> 01:11:55,130
You know all this jazz?
1587
01:11:55,130 --> 01:11:56,838
Let the holder have free, er...
1588
01:11:56,838 --> 01:12:00,629
and in school they taught 'em
to sing God Save The King
1589
01:12:00,629 --> 01:12:01,504
and God Save The Queen.
1590
01:12:01,504 --> 01:12:04,379
See, the public don't know.
They don't know what's...
1591
01:12:04,379 --> 01:12:08,921
You, Mr Lewin, you've been
to Harmondsworth.
1592
01:12:08,921 --> 01:12:11,546
You've seen cases
of girls locked up.
1593
01:12:11,546 --> 01:12:14,213
Now, I'll ask you. You've been
asking me a lot of questions.
1594
01:12:14,213 --> 01:12:18,546
I'll ask you a lot of...
I'll ask you just one question.
1595
01:12:18,546 --> 01:12:21,588
Were you surprised
at the things you saw?
1596
01:12:21,588 --> 01:12:25,172
(♪ Steel band plays
"Rule Britannia")
115666
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