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Let me put up this next memo.
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You want me to read this?
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Yes, please.
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"February 4, 2004.
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Subject: What you know.
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There are known knowns.
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There are known unknowns.
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There are unknown unknowns.
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But there are also
unknown knowns.
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That is to say,
things that you think you know
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that it turns out
you did not."
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I wonder if in the future
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public figures will write
as many memos as I did.
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I doubt it.
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I must have gotten
in the habit of dictating
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things that were important.
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Not a diary.
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Not a journal.
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They're almost all
working documents.
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Now, they've become historical
documents in retrospect,
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but at the time,
they all had a purpose.
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In the later years
of my using the dictaphone,
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why, they were called
snowflakes,
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because they were
on white paper.
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What would you say
the total number of memos
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might be?
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They said I dictated 20,000
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just in the last six years
at the Pentagon.
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There have to be millions.
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00:04:02,741 --> 00:04:05,942
"July 27, 2001."
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00:04:05,943 --> 00:04:10,915
A memo to Condoleezza Rice
concerning Iraq.
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00:04:10,916 --> 00:04:15,053
"We have discussed Iraq
on a number of occasions.
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The discussions
have been inconclusive.
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Sanctions are being limited
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in a way that cannot weaken
Saddam Hussein.
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We can publicly acknowledge
that the sanctions don't work
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over extended periods
and stop the pretense
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00:04:31,470 --> 00:04:33,110
of having a policy
that is keeping Saddam
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'in the box'
when we know he has crawled
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a good distance out of the box.
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00:04:40,946 --> 00:04:42,547
Within a few years,
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the U.S. will undoubtedly
have to confront
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00:04:44,229 --> 00:04:48,959
a Saddam armed
with nuclear weapons.
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00:04:54,959 --> 00:04:57,462
If Saddam's regime
were oustered,
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we would have
a much-improved position
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in the region
and elsewhere."
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Why the obsession
with Iraq and Saddam?
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00:05:17,382 --> 00:05:19,717
Well, you love that word,
"obsession."
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I can see the glow
in your face when you say it.
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Well, I'm an obsessive person.
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Are you? I'm not.
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I'm--
I'm cool.
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I'm measured.
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00:05:28,860 --> 00:05:31,796
If you look
at the range of my memos,
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there might be 1/10 of 1%
about Iraq.
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00:05:35,666 --> 00:05:37,467
The reason I was concerned
about Iraq
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is 'cause four-star generals
would come to me and say,
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"Mr. secretary,
we have a problem.
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00:05:44,410 --> 00:05:47,477
Our orders are to fly over
the northern part of Iraq
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00:05:47,478 --> 00:05:50,047
and the Southern part of Iraq
on a daily basis,
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00:05:50,048 --> 00:05:53,618
with the Brits,
and we are getting shot at.
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00:05:53,619 --> 00:05:55,953
At some moment--
could be tomorrow,
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00:05:55,954 --> 00:05:58,054
could be next month,
could be next year--
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00:05:58,055 --> 00:06:00,124
one of our planes
is gonna be shot down
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00:06:00,125 --> 00:06:03,828
and our pilots and crews
are gonna be killed
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00:06:03,829 --> 00:06:05,830
or they're gonna be
captured."
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00:06:05,831 --> 00:06:07,498
The question will be,
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00:06:07,499 --> 00:06:10,701
"what in the world were
we flying those flights for?
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00:06:10,702 --> 00:06:12,837
What was
the cost-benefit ratio?
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00:06:12,838 --> 00:06:14,871
What was our country gaining?"
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00:06:14,872 --> 00:06:16,207
So you sit down and you say,
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00:06:16,208 --> 00:06:17,809
"I think I'm gonna see
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if I can get
the president's attention.
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00:06:19,610 --> 00:06:21,912
Remind him that our planes
are being shot at,
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00:06:21,913 --> 00:06:25,148
remind him that we don't have
a fresh policy for Iraq,
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00:06:25,149 --> 00:06:30,054
and remind him that we've got
a whole range of options."
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Not an obsession.
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00:06:31,456 --> 00:06:36,527
A very measured,
nuanced approach,
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I think.
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00:06:42,867 --> 00:06:45,869
In my confirmation hearing
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00:06:45,870 --> 00:06:50,107
when I was nominated
to be secretary of defense,
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00:06:50,108 --> 00:06:52,011
the best question
I was asked was,
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"what do you worry about
when you go to bed at night?"
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And my answer was, in effect,
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"intelligence.
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00:07:00,752 --> 00:07:02,720
The danger
that we can be surprised
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00:07:02,721 --> 00:07:04,922
because of
a failure of imagining
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00:07:04,923 --> 00:07:06,862
what might happen
in the world."
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00:07:09,862 --> 00:07:14,898
There are known knowns,
the things we know we know.
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00:07:14,899 --> 00:07:16,234
There are known unknowns,
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00:07:16,235 --> 00:07:20,071
the things we know
we don't know.
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00:07:20,072 --> 00:07:21,472
There are also
that third category
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of unknown unknowns,
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the things we don't know
we don't know.
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00:07:25,911 --> 00:07:29,213
And you can only know more
about those things
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00:07:29,214 --> 00:07:32,987
by imagining what they might be.
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00:07:37,088 --> 00:07:41,993
Pearl harbor was
a failure of imagination.
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We didn't know we didn't know
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00:07:44,161 --> 00:07:47,803
that they could do what they
did the way they did it.
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00:07:51,803 --> 00:07:55,172
We had people working
on breaking codes.
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00:07:55,173 --> 00:07:57,073
We had people thinking through,
102
00:07:57,074 --> 00:07:59,980
"what are the kinds of things
they might do?"
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00:08:01,980 --> 00:08:04,016
And lo and behold,
the carriers were able to,
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00:08:05,016 --> 00:08:08,953
on a Sunday morning,
get very close to Hawaii,
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00:08:08,954 --> 00:08:13,994
launch their planes, and
impose enormous destruction.
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00:08:28,973 --> 00:08:31,275
Was it failure of imagination
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or failure to look
at the intelligence
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that was available?
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They had thought through
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00:08:39,650 --> 00:08:43,653
a great many
more obvious possibilities.
111
00:08:43,654 --> 00:08:47,992
People were chasing
the wrong rabbit.
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00:08:47,993 --> 00:08:51,362
That one possibility
was not something
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00:08:51,363 --> 00:08:55,270
that they had imagined
was likely.
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"July 23, 2001.
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00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:08,778
Subject:
'Pearl harbor post-mortem.'
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00:09:08,779 --> 00:09:11,114
in some future hearing,
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00:09:11,115 --> 00:09:13,783
I am going to say
that I do not want
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00:09:13,784 --> 00:09:17,787
to be sitting before this panel
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00:09:17,788 --> 00:09:22,726
in a modern-day version
of a pearl harbor post-mortem:
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00:09:22,727 --> 00:09:27,965
Who didn't do what,
when, where, and why.
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00:09:27,966 --> 00:09:31,869
None of us would want
to have to be back here
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00:09:31,870 --> 00:09:35,272
going through that agony."
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00:09:35,273 --> 00:09:39,944
A month or so before
September 11, 2001,
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00:09:39,945 --> 00:09:44,181
it would be wrong to think
that someone who wrote it--
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namely me, was prescient.
126
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I wasn't.
127
00:09:47,385 --> 00:09:49,954
I simply had read enough history
128
00:09:49,955 --> 00:09:51,792
that I worried.
129
00:09:53,792 --> 00:09:55,225
American 11, climb,
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00:09:55,226 --> 00:09:58,995
maintain flight level 350.
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00:09:58,996 --> 00:10:01,436
American 11, climb,
maintain flight level 350.
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00:10:04,436 --> 00:10:06,341
American 11, Boston.
133
00:10:09,341 --> 00:10:11,679
The American on the frequency,
how do you hear me?
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00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:16,279
American 11,
if you hear Boston center
135
00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,450
re-contact Boston center
on 127.82.
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00:10:19,451 --> 00:10:22,291
That's American 11, 127.82.
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00:10:26,291 --> 00:10:27,792
My military assistant,
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00:10:27,793 --> 00:10:30,427
admiral Ed Giambastiani,
came in and said,
139
00:10:30,428 --> 00:10:33,431
"a plane has hit
the world trade center."
140
00:10:33,432 --> 00:10:36,300
It was assumed
to be an accident.
141
00:10:36,301 --> 00:10:39,369
And I went into my office
from the conference room,
142
00:10:39,370 --> 00:10:41,490
and admiral Giambastiani said,
"another plane has hit
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00:10:41,491 --> 00:10:43,074
the other world
trade center tower."
144
00:10:43,075 --> 00:10:44,441
And of course, at that point,
145
00:10:44,442 --> 00:10:46,076
it wasn't an accident;
It was an attack.
146
00:10:46,077 --> 00:10:50,751
Within minutes,
I felt the Pentagon shake.
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00:10:53,751 --> 00:10:57,388
That's how our day began
on September 11th.
148
00:11:05,130 --> 00:11:08,766
They had hit the center
of economic power in New York,
149
00:11:08,767 --> 00:11:12,135
and they then had hit
the center of military power
150
00:11:12,136 --> 00:11:13,336
at the Pentagon.
151
00:11:13,337 --> 00:11:15,239
You need to find out
what had happened.
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00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:16,874
What was it?
153
00:11:16,875 --> 00:11:19,442
I got up and
went down the hall, and--
154
00:11:19,443 --> 00:11:21,745
on my floor,
until the smoke was so bad
155
00:11:21,746 --> 00:11:23,279
I had to get outside.
156
00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,050
Then I went downstairs and
outside and around the corner,
157
00:11:26,051 --> 00:11:29,119
and here were pieces of
that American airlines airplane
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00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,493
just spread all over the apron,
all over the grass.
159
00:11:34,493 --> 00:11:36,826
Flames and smoke,
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00:11:36,827 --> 00:11:38,896
people being brought out
of the building
161
00:11:38,897 --> 00:11:42,068
who were injured
and burned and wounded.
162
00:11:44,068 --> 00:11:46,369
The first responders
really hadn't arrived yet.
163
00:11:46,370 --> 00:11:48,147
There were
very few people there.
164
00:11:55,147 --> 00:11:58,215
How do you think
that they got away with 9/11?
165
00:11:58,216 --> 00:12:01,121
It seems amazing in retrospect.
166
00:12:04,121 --> 00:12:07,490
Everything seems amazing
in retrospect.
167
00:12:07,491 --> 00:12:10,465
Pearl harbor seems amazing
in retrospect.
168
00:12:13,465 --> 00:12:16,139
It's a failure of imagination.
169
00:12:22,139 --> 00:12:28,144
It's not as though you aren't
aware of possibilities,
170
00:12:28,145 --> 00:12:31,581
but you tend to favor
some possibilities
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00:12:31,582 --> 00:12:33,321
more than others.
172
00:12:36,321 --> 00:12:39,322
And it's enormously important
to have priorities.
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00:12:39,323 --> 00:12:40,590
What are you gonna worry about?
174
00:12:40,591 --> 00:12:42,058
What is it you want to do?
175
00:12:42,059 --> 00:12:43,459
What are you gonna
be prepared for?
176
00:12:43,460 --> 00:12:44,994
And you have to pick and choose.
177
00:12:44,995 --> 00:12:46,596
Well, to the extent
you pick and choose
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00:12:46,597 --> 00:12:48,231
and you're wrong...
179
00:12:51,001 --> 00:12:53,275
...the penalty can be enormous.
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00:12:58,275 --> 00:13:03,113
"September 30, 2001."
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00:13:03,114 --> 00:13:07,321
Memorandum.
Title: "Strategic thoughts."
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00:13:09,321 --> 00:13:13,056
"The U.S. strategic theme
should be aiding local peoples
183
00:13:13,057 --> 00:13:15,191
to rid themselves of terrorists
184
00:13:15,192 --> 00:13:17,327
and to free themselves
of regimes
185
00:13:17,328 --> 00:13:21,498
that support terrorism.
186
00:13:21,499 --> 00:13:25,869
The regimes of such states
should see that it will be fatal
187
00:13:25,870 --> 00:13:29,410
to host terrorists
who attack the United States.
188
00:13:33,410 --> 00:13:36,080
The United States government
should envision
189
00:13:36,081 --> 00:13:38,349
a goal along these lines.
190
00:13:38,350 --> 00:13:43,320
New regimes in Afghanistan
and another key state or two
191
00:13:43,321 --> 00:13:46,290
that supports terrorism.
192
00:13:46,291 --> 00:13:48,492
Syria out of Lebanon.
193
00:13:48,493 --> 00:13:50,360
Dismantlement or destruction
194
00:13:50,361 --> 00:13:53,902
of weapons of mass destruction
capabilities.
195
00:13:56,902 --> 00:13:59,269
If the war does not
significantly change
196
00:13:59,270 --> 00:14:01,171
the world's political map,
197
00:14:01,172 --> 00:14:04,511
the U.S. will not
achieve its aim."
198
00:14:15,654 --> 00:14:18,455
On my orders,
the United States military
199
00:14:18,456 --> 00:14:19,306
has begun strikes
200
00:14:20,024 --> 00:14:22,692
against Al-Qaeda
terrorist training camps
201
00:14:22,693 --> 00:14:24,260
and military installations
202
00:14:24,261 --> 00:14:26,566
of the Taliban regime
in Afghanistan.
203
00:14:43,414 --> 00:14:46,316
In relatively short order,
a matter of weeks,
204
00:14:46,317 --> 00:14:47,584
Kabul was occupied,
205
00:14:47,585 --> 00:14:49,186
the Taliban was defeated
206
00:14:49,187 --> 00:14:52,221
and run out of the country
in large measure,
207
00:14:52,222 --> 00:14:54,659
and a lot of Al-Qaeda
were killed.
208
00:14:55,659 --> 00:15:00,397
Osama Bin Laden escaped
into Pakistan eventually.
209
00:15:00,398 --> 00:15:03,466
The target of the
largest manhunt in history
210
00:15:03,467 --> 00:15:05,034
still eludes capture.
211
00:15:05,035 --> 00:15:06,637
Cave by cave, for any sign
212
00:15:06,638 --> 00:15:08,038
of Osama Bin Laden,
dead or alive.
213
00:15:09,006 --> 00:15:12,042
The high probability that
Osama Bin Laden is still alive.
214
00:15:12,043 --> 00:15:14,077
With Afghanistan's
porous borders,
215
00:15:14,078 --> 00:15:16,412
it's possible Bin Laden
has already slipped
216
00:15:16,413 --> 00:15:17,388
out of the country.
217
00:15:23,388 --> 00:15:29,158
Osama gets away,
and a confusion sets in.
218
00:15:29,159 --> 00:15:34,565
People began to think
that Saddam was connected
219
00:15:34,566 --> 00:15:39,268
with Al-Qaeda and with 9/11.
220
00:15:39,269 --> 00:15:40,119
Oh, I don't think so.
221
00:15:41,005 --> 00:15:45,042
It was very clear that
the direct planning for 9/11
222
00:15:45,043 --> 00:15:47,710
was done by
Osama Bin Laden's people,
223
00:15:47,711 --> 00:15:51,547
Al-Qaeda,
and in Afghanistan.
224
00:15:51,548 --> 00:15:53,082
I don't think
the American people
225
00:15:53,083 --> 00:15:55,252
were confused about that.
226
00:15:55,253 --> 00:15:59,723
In 2003,
in a Washington Post poll,
227
00:15:59,724 --> 00:16:02,158
69% said they believe
it is likely
228
00:16:02,159 --> 00:16:04,561
the Iraqi leader
was personally involved
229
00:16:04,562 --> 00:16:07,764
in the attacks
carried out by Al-Qaeda.
230
00:16:07,765 --> 00:16:11,435
I don't remember anyone
in the bush administration
231
00:16:11,436 --> 00:16:13,403
saying anything like that,
232
00:16:13,404 --> 00:16:16,739
nor do I recall
anyone believing that.
233
00:16:16,740 --> 00:16:19,143
Mr. secretary, today
in a broadcast interview was--
234
00:16:19,144 --> 00:16:22,646
Saddam Hussein said,
"there is only one truth.
235
00:16:22,647 --> 00:16:26,282
Iraq has no weapons
of mass destruction whatsoever."
236
00:16:26,283 --> 00:16:27,451
And he went on to say,
237
00:16:27,452 --> 00:16:29,052
"I would like to tell you
directly
238
00:16:29,053 --> 00:16:31,754
we have no relationship
with Al-Qaeda."
239
00:16:31,755 --> 00:16:34,624
And Abraham Lincoln was short.
240
00:16:36,693 --> 00:16:38,295
Would you care
to respond directly
241
00:16:38,296 --> 00:16:41,403
to what Saddam Hussein
has said today?
242
00:16:45,403 --> 00:16:47,504
I--
243
00:16:47,505 --> 00:16:50,273
how does one respond to that?
244
00:16:50,274 --> 00:16:53,277
It's just a continuous pattern.
245
00:16:53,278 --> 00:16:57,147
This is a case of the local liar
coming up again
246
00:16:57,148 --> 00:16:58,481
and people repeating
what he said
247
00:16:58,482 --> 00:17:00,817
and forgetting to say
that he never--
248
00:17:00,818 --> 00:17:05,154
almost never--
rarely tells the truth.
249
00:17:14,598 --> 00:17:16,799
There are two sides to the coin.
250
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,470
One is,
251
00:17:19,471 --> 00:17:22,605
"belief in the inevitability
of conflict
252
00:17:22,606 --> 00:17:27,376
can become one
of its main causes."
253
00:17:27,377 --> 00:17:31,147
That is a truth.
254
00:17:31,148 --> 00:17:34,785
The other side of the coin,
which is also true, is,
255
00:17:34,786 --> 00:17:38,125
"if you wish for peace,
prepare for war."
256
00:17:41,125 --> 00:17:42,526
But if both were true,
257
00:17:42,527 --> 00:17:46,697
well, you can use that
to justify anything.
258
00:17:46,698 --> 00:17:49,799
There's a similar thing
in Rumsfeld’s rules
259
00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,169
where I say,
260
00:17:52,170 --> 00:17:56,440
"all generalizations are false,
261
00:17:56,441 --> 00:18:00,410
including this one."
262
00:18:00,411 --> 00:18:03,650
There it is.
263
00:18:05,650 --> 00:18:07,918
The president did
harden his stand towards--
264
00:18:07,919 --> 00:18:10,653
the United States
is on the road to war.
265
00:18:10,654 --> 00:18:12,588
Administration
officials say the effort
266
00:18:12,589 --> 00:18:14,758
to pressure Iraq has moved
into a final phase.
267
00:18:14,759 --> 00:18:16,927
All the military pieces
should be in place
268
00:18:16,928 --> 00:18:18,170
to go to war with Iraq.
269
00:18:25,170 --> 00:18:27,837
On January 11, 2003,
270
00:18:27,838 --> 00:18:30,440
the vice president's office
called
271
00:18:30,441 --> 00:18:32,808
and requested that I come over
to meet with him
272
00:18:32,809 --> 00:18:37,847
and the Saudi ambassador,
prince Bandar.
273
00:18:37,848 --> 00:18:39,549
It was unusual.
I mean, I--
274
00:18:39,550 --> 00:18:42,486
I wasn't often
in the vice president's office.
275
00:18:42,487 --> 00:18:43,620
We sat down.
276
00:18:43,621 --> 00:18:47,723
Dick proceeded to tell Bandar
277
00:18:47,724 --> 00:18:51,929
that the president
was going to invade Iraq
278
00:18:51,930 --> 00:18:54,431
and change the regime in Iraq.
279
00:18:54,432 --> 00:18:57,834
That was the first time
that I'd heard anything
280
00:18:57,835 --> 00:19:00,269
that sounded truly definitive.
281
00:19:00,270 --> 00:19:03,739
What was the Saudi
ambassador's reaction to this?
282
00:19:03,740 --> 00:19:06,977
He wanted reassurance
that when it was all over,
283
00:19:06,978 --> 00:19:09,212
Saddam Hussein would be gone.
284
00:19:09,213 --> 00:19:11,847
They needed to know
that the president was serious.
285
00:19:11,848 --> 00:19:13,482
That is why, I'm sure,
286
00:19:13,483 --> 00:19:16,787
the vice president said it
the way he said it.
287
00:19:16,788 --> 00:19:19,222
Is it at all strange
that you would hear about it
288
00:19:19,223 --> 00:19:20,824
in this way?
289
00:19:20,825 --> 00:19:22,994
No.
290
00:19:23,994 --> 00:19:26,266
No, I don't think so.
291
00:19:28,266 --> 00:19:32,768
If the purpose of the war
is to get rid of Saddam Hussein,
292
00:19:32,769 --> 00:19:34,249
why can't they just
assassinate him?
293
00:19:35,006 --> 00:19:38,342
Why do you have
to invade his country?
294
00:19:38,343 --> 00:19:39,543
Who's "they?"
295
00:19:39,544 --> 00:19:40,394
Us.
296
00:19:41,011 --> 00:19:42,379
You said, "they."
297
00:19:42,380 --> 00:19:43,579
You didn't say, "we."
298
00:19:43,580 --> 00:19:44,780
Well, "we."
299
00:19:44,781 --> 00:19:45,631
I will rephrase it.
300
00:19:46,017 --> 00:19:47,057
Why do we have to do that?
301
00:19:48,019 --> 00:19:52,992
We don't assassinate
leaders of other countries.
302
00:19:54,992 --> 00:19:58,327
Well, Dora Farms,
we were doing our best.
303
00:19:58,328 --> 00:20:01,037
That was an act of war.
304
00:20:06,037 --> 00:20:07,437
The beginning of the war,
305
00:20:07,438 --> 00:20:10,507
even before it started,
306
00:20:10,508 --> 00:20:13,477
George tenet came to see me
in my office at the Pentagon.
307
00:20:13,478 --> 00:20:16,646
He said, "we think we know
where Saddam Hussein is."
308
00:20:16,647 --> 00:20:18,649
I said, "terrific,"
and I called the White House
309
00:20:18,650 --> 00:20:20,717
and said to the president,
"we're coming over."
310
00:20:20,718 --> 00:20:22,958
We met in his office.
311
00:20:26,958 --> 00:20:28,691
George tenet would go
from the oval office
312
00:20:28,692 --> 00:20:31,761
in to a side office
and talk to the people
313
00:20:31,762 --> 00:20:33,864
in the central
intelligence agency
314
00:20:33,865 --> 00:20:38,934
who were talking to the agents
on the ground in Iraq.
315
00:20:38,935 --> 00:20:40,437
The word came back
316
00:20:40,438 --> 00:20:43,373
that somebody had identified
Saddam Hussein
317
00:20:43,374 --> 00:20:45,877
as being at Dora Farms.
318
00:20:46,877 --> 00:20:51,647
George tenet was convinced
that his people on the ground
319
00:20:51,648 --> 00:20:53,416
were giving him
the straight dope.
320
00:20:53,417 --> 00:20:55,085
They were certain he was there.
321
00:21:00,391 --> 00:21:02,027
We'd put on alert aircraft.
322
00:21:03,027 --> 00:21:08,569
The aircraft took off
and went to that location.
323
00:21:12,569 --> 00:21:15,404
The president
went around the room asking,
324
00:21:15,405 --> 00:21:17,574
"should we do this
or not?"
325
00:21:17,575 --> 00:21:18,935
Everyone in the room,
as I recall,
326
00:21:19,009 --> 00:21:21,978
agreed it was
sufficiently solid intelligence,
327
00:21:21,979 --> 00:21:23,447
sufficient to do it.
328
00:21:23,448 --> 00:21:24,847
We just were so hopeful
329
00:21:24,848 --> 00:21:26,783
that by killing Saddam Hussein,
330
00:21:26,784 --> 00:21:30,987
we could end the need for a war,
331
00:21:30,988 --> 00:21:34,130
that in fact, by that act,
you would change the regime.
332
00:21:39,130 --> 00:21:42,865
The planes went in,
and they struck the farm...
333
00:21:46,104 --> 00:21:48,040
...killed some people.
334
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,509
They came out
with a stretcher with a body.
335
00:21:53,510 --> 00:21:56,479
People there
on the ground asserted
336
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,382
that it was Saddam Hussein.
337
00:21:58,383 --> 00:22:01,518
They think they killed him.
338
00:22:01,519 --> 00:22:05,122
And it turned out, it was not.
339
00:22:09,626 --> 00:22:11,694
What a wonderful
thing it would have been
340
00:22:11,695 --> 00:22:14,730
if he could have been killed.
341
00:22:14,731 --> 00:22:18,434
The war would have been avoided.
342
00:22:18,435 --> 00:22:19,669
It's possible.
343
00:22:19,670 --> 00:22:21,137
May not have been,
344
00:22:21,138 --> 00:22:22,775
but it's possible.
345
00:22:34,652 --> 00:22:37,754
You wonder why
they didn't respond
346
00:22:37,755 --> 00:22:39,689
to all the efforts
that were made
347
00:22:39,690 --> 00:22:43,893
to avoid that war.
348
00:22:43,894 --> 00:22:45,996
How could they be that mixed up
349
00:22:45,997 --> 00:22:49,969
in what the inevitable
next steps would be?
350
00:22:51,969 --> 00:22:53,836
Why they wouldn't sit down
351
00:22:53,837 --> 00:22:57,606
and have
an agonizing reappraisal,
352
00:22:57,607 --> 00:23:01,444
and it come to some
logical conclusion?
353
00:23:27,238 --> 00:23:29,239
I was elected to congress.
354
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,074
I was 30 years old.
355
00:23:31,075 --> 00:23:35,679
It was during the Vietnam war
and the civil rights era.
356
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,516
There were big issues before us.
357
00:23:39,517 --> 00:23:41,550
I would come back sometimes
358
00:23:41,551 --> 00:23:44,254
knowing I didn't know
if I voted right,
359
00:23:44,255 --> 00:23:46,922
that there are arguments here
and there were arguments there.
360
00:23:46,923 --> 00:23:49,492
"Ugh, I hope I voted
the right way.
361
00:23:49,493 --> 00:23:50,493
Why did I do what I did?"
362
00:23:51,028 --> 00:23:54,764
And I'd sit down
and dictate that.
363
00:23:54,765 --> 00:23:56,900
After almost every vote,
every amendment,
364
00:23:56,901 --> 00:24:01,203
I would go back
with my little dictaphone.
365
00:24:01,204 --> 00:24:03,772
I would dictate a note and say,
366
00:24:03,773 --> 00:24:05,040
"here was the vote.
367
00:24:05,041 --> 00:24:06,876
The ayes were this.
The nays were that.
368
00:24:06,877 --> 00:24:08,845
Here were the amendments,
and here's what I did
369
00:24:08,846 --> 00:24:11,181
and why I did it."
370
00:24:11,182 --> 00:24:14,183
And then when I went
in the executive branch,
371
00:24:14,184 --> 00:24:18,121
I would want to clarify
my own thinking,
372
00:24:18,122 --> 00:24:20,162
so I would try to put it down
on paper and edit it,
373
00:24:21,025 --> 00:24:23,259
and I'd go through
three, four, five drafts,
374
00:24:23,260 --> 00:24:25,528
getting it the way
I really wanted it.
375
00:24:25,529 --> 00:24:28,765
I would do it
for communications to my staff.
376
00:24:28,766 --> 00:24:31,835
I wanted them to know
what I was thinking.
377
00:24:31,836 --> 00:24:34,304
Did you imagine
that they would produce
378
00:24:34,305 --> 00:24:35,872
this vast archive?
379
00:24:35,873 --> 00:24:37,239
Oh, it never crossed my mind.
380
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,643
I never knew
what I was gonna do next.
381
00:24:39,644 --> 00:24:41,764
The only thing I've ever
volunteered for in my life--
382
00:24:42,012 --> 00:24:43,813
one was to go in the Navy,
383
00:24:43,814 --> 00:24:46,916
and the other was
to run for congress.
384
00:24:46,917 --> 00:24:48,718
The other was to get married.
385
00:24:58,996 --> 00:25:01,331
You look at being
married to the same woman
386
00:25:01,332 --> 00:25:03,967
all those decades--
387
00:25:03,968 --> 00:25:07,136
when you're 20, 21, 22,
388
00:25:07,137 --> 00:25:10,105
what did you know?
389
00:25:10,106 --> 00:25:13,276
Both of us were young
and unformed.
390
00:25:13,277 --> 00:25:16,313
How in the world
can you be that lucky?
391
00:25:16,314 --> 00:25:18,181
How did you propose?
392
00:25:18,182 --> 00:25:20,686
Imperfectly.
393
00:25:22,686 --> 00:25:27,723
I was getting ready
to leave for Pensacola.
394
00:25:27,724 --> 00:25:29,726
About 10:00 in the morning,
I said to my folks,
395
00:25:29,727 --> 00:25:30,960
"I'll be back.
396
00:25:30,961 --> 00:25:33,063
I'm gonna go down
and see Joyce."
397
00:25:33,064 --> 00:25:34,364
I asked her to marry me.
398
00:25:34,365 --> 00:25:35,798
I didn't get down on my knees.
399
00:25:35,799 --> 00:25:37,933
I didn't do anything fancy.
400
00:25:37,934 --> 00:25:39,835
I didn't want to get married,
401
00:25:39,836 --> 00:25:41,671
but I sure as heck
didn't want her
402
00:25:41,672 --> 00:25:43,772
to marry anyone else.
403
00:25:43,773 --> 00:25:46,108
And I was correct.
404
00:25:46,109 --> 00:25:47,030
It was a good decision.
405
00:25:48,011 --> 00:25:50,349
It just hadn't been
part of my plan.
406
00:25:56,019 --> 00:25:58,188
Director of the
office of economic opportunity
407
00:25:58,189 --> 00:26:01,760
was Rumsfeld’s first job
for Richard Nixon.
408
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,363
Later, when O.E.O. Seemed
headed for extinction,
409
00:26:06,364 --> 00:26:10,836
Mr. Nixon named him director
of the cost of living council.
410
00:26:11,836 --> 00:26:13,103
After friction developed
411
00:26:13,104 --> 00:26:15,404
between Rumsfeld
and H.R. Haldeman,
412
00:26:15,405 --> 00:26:18,708
Rumsfeld requested a change
413
00:26:18,709 --> 00:26:21,310
and was sent to Brussels
as the U.S. ambassador
414
00:26:21,311 --> 00:26:24,413
to the north Atlantic
treaty organization.
415
00:26:24,414 --> 00:26:26,082
He got out just in time
416
00:26:26,083 --> 00:26:28,221
and survived Watergate
with reputation intact.
417
00:26:31,221 --> 00:26:34,790
A person who works
that hard to become president
418
00:26:34,791 --> 00:26:38,961
had to believe that
everything he did or thought
419
00:26:38,962 --> 00:26:43,833
would be useful to preserve.
420
00:26:43,834 --> 00:26:46,135
He puts in place
these recording devices,
421
00:26:46,136 --> 00:26:48,738
like other presidents had,
422
00:26:48,739 --> 00:26:50,306
and then he'd go about
being himself,
423
00:26:50,307 --> 00:26:52,107
and sometimes
he'd let his hair down
424
00:26:52,108 --> 00:26:56,046
and say things in ways
that he might not have said
425
00:26:56,047 --> 00:26:59,082
had he remembered
that each second of the day
426
00:26:59,083 --> 00:27:00,683
that it was being recorded.
427
00:27:00,684 --> 00:27:02,986
All of us say things
we shouldn't say,
428
00:27:02,987 --> 00:27:05,922
that on reflection,
we wish we hadn't said.
429
00:27:05,923 --> 00:27:08,725
I expect he just felt that
on balance,
430
00:27:08,726 --> 00:27:10,160
everything was worth preserving
431
00:27:10,161 --> 00:27:12,099
because he was
an historic figure.
432
00:28:06,250 --> 00:28:08,918
Did presidents after
Nixon make recordings
433
00:28:08,919 --> 00:28:10,319
in the White House?
434
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,387
The only president
I was close enough to
435
00:28:12,388 --> 00:28:14,824
to answer that question about
was Gerald R. Ford,
436
00:28:14,825 --> 00:28:17,360
and I can assure you he did not.
437
00:28:17,361 --> 00:28:21,064
My guess is that people
tend not to fall
438
00:28:21,065 --> 00:28:23,199
in exactly the same potholes
439
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,003
that their predecessors do.
440
00:28:27,003 --> 00:28:29,772
More often than not,
they make original mistakes.
441
00:28:29,773 --> 00:28:31,775
We all do.
442
00:28:31,776 --> 00:28:35,345
But I assume the presidency
under extraordinary...
443
00:28:35,346 --> 00:28:39,249
Gerald Ford had announced,
when he first took office,
444
00:28:39,250 --> 00:28:43,286
that he was not gonna have
a chief of staff.
445
00:28:43,287 --> 00:28:45,521
He was going to be
the anti-Nixon,
446
00:28:45,522 --> 00:28:49,358
the anti-Haldeman,
the anti-Ehrlichman.
447
00:28:49,359 --> 00:28:51,928
He had said he was
gonna have a coordinator
448
00:28:51,929 --> 00:28:53,797
or something like that.
449
00:28:53,798 --> 00:28:54,879
And that's when I told him
450
00:28:55,031 --> 00:28:56,311
he'd have to find somebody else,
451
00:28:56,312 --> 00:28:57,933
because it wasn't gonna work,
452
00:28:57,934 --> 00:29:01,237
and I didn't want
to be a party to it.
453
00:29:01,238 --> 00:29:05,112
After a while,
he agreed that I was right.
454
00:29:08,112 --> 00:29:10,246
At the time,
there were a number of people
455
00:29:10,247 --> 00:29:13,348
still being looked at
by what was then called,
456
00:29:13,349 --> 00:29:17,854
"the special prosecutor."
457
00:29:17,855 --> 00:29:20,123
This is really
an extraordinary moment.
458
00:29:20,124 --> 00:29:25,194
The White House is filled
with lawyers and investigators.
459
00:29:25,195 --> 00:29:27,865
That's exactly right.
460
00:29:28,865 --> 00:29:32,501
It was September 29, 1974,
461
00:29:32,502 --> 00:29:35,070
in the morning
that I dictated this memo
462
00:29:35,071 --> 00:29:38,477
on the subject of the safe
in the chief of staff's office.
463
00:29:40,477 --> 00:29:44,180
"I arrived
at approximately 5:00 P.M.
464
00:29:44,181 --> 00:29:47,018
I wanted to clean out the
place so that I could move in,
465
00:29:48,018 --> 00:29:50,553
and I wanted to make sure that
there was nothing in the place
466
00:29:50,554 --> 00:29:52,354
that I didn't want there,
467
00:29:52,355 --> 00:29:57,527
such as recording equipment,
telephone bugs, and the like.
468
00:29:57,528 --> 00:30:00,095
At approximately 5:15 P.M.,
469
00:30:00,096 --> 00:30:03,066
bill Walker commented
that there was a safe
470
00:30:03,067 --> 00:30:05,067
in the cupboard."
471
00:30:05,068 --> 00:30:08,006
This says, "to the left
of the fireplace."
472
00:30:09,006 --> 00:30:10,472
If you're standing
in the fireplace,
473
00:30:10,473 --> 00:30:11,874
it was to the left.
474
00:30:11,875 --> 00:30:13,108
Actually, it was to the right
475
00:30:13,109 --> 00:30:14,576
if you faced the fireplace.
476
00:30:24,654 --> 00:30:26,456
So here's a safe,
and it's locked.
477
00:30:26,457 --> 00:30:28,892
And I thought, "oh, my goodness.
478
00:30:28,893 --> 00:30:31,894
I wonder
what's in that safe?"
479
00:30:31,895 --> 00:30:33,563
I said to Dick Cheney,
480
00:30:33,564 --> 00:30:35,464
my assistant who was helping me,
481
00:30:35,465 --> 00:30:37,533
"look, why don't we get
the secret service,
482
00:30:37,534 --> 00:30:40,403
get 'em down here with people
who can move the safe
483
00:30:40,404 --> 00:30:42,905
and open it
or do whatever they have to do."
484
00:30:42,906 --> 00:30:45,107
And what happened
to the safe in the end?
485
00:30:45,108 --> 00:30:48,143
The end for me was when
I got it out of my office
486
00:30:48,144 --> 00:30:52,081
under a proper
chain of evidence.
487
00:31:01,025 --> 00:31:04,661
♪ I'm dreaming ♪
488
00:31:04,662 --> 00:31:10,600
♪ of a white Christmas ♪
489
00:31:10,601 --> 00:31:12,002
♪ just like the ones ♪
490
00:31:13,002 --> 00:31:18,240
♪ I used to know ♪
491
00:31:18,241 --> 00:31:22,278
♪ where the treetops glisten ♪
492
00:31:22,279 --> 00:31:24,079
♪ and children listen ♪
493
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:25,414
They put the word out,
494
00:31:25,415 --> 00:31:27,255
"stay tuned
to armed forces radio.
495
00:31:31,255 --> 00:31:32,654
When you hear it said
496
00:31:32,655 --> 00:31:37,226
that the temperature is rising
to 105 degrees
497
00:31:37,227 --> 00:31:40,997
and you hear, 'I'm dreaming
of a white Christmas,'
498
00:31:40,998 --> 00:31:43,236
you'll know
the evacuation is ordered."
499
00:31:46,236 --> 00:31:50,973
The north Vietnamese
and Viet Cong forces
500
00:31:50,974 --> 00:31:53,041
moved into Saigon
501
00:31:53,042 --> 00:31:56,150
directly towards
the U.S. facilities.
502
00:32:00,150 --> 00:32:02,552
The scenes of the helicopter
503
00:32:02,553 --> 00:32:05,054
lifting people off
of the roof of the building
504
00:32:05,055 --> 00:32:06,255
were really heartbreaking,
505
00:32:06,256 --> 00:32:08,191
because you had
really wonderful people
506
00:32:08,192 --> 00:32:10,360
who'd worked with our forces
507
00:32:10,361 --> 00:32:12,495
and knew that their circumstance
508
00:32:12,496 --> 00:32:14,596
when the Vietcong
and north Vietnamese
509
00:32:14,597 --> 00:32:17,266
took over that country
would be difficult,
510
00:32:17,267 --> 00:32:20,268
that they'd be killed
or put in jail.
511
00:32:20,269 --> 00:32:21,709
They kept lifting
more and more out,
512
00:32:22,006 --> 00:32:23,309
and more kept coming.
513
00:32:26,309 --> 00:32:28,310
They ended up landing
so many helicopters
514
00:32:28,311 --> 00:32:31,314
on the carrier that they
started shoving helicopters off
515
00:32:31,315 --> 00:32:34,616
so that they could get
more helicopters on.
516
00:32:49,333 --> 00:32:52,634
Were you with the president
when all of this was going down?
517
00:32:52,635 --> 00:32:55,570
Yes, I was in the oval office
518
00:32:55,571 --> 00:32:58,173
with secretary Kissinger
and the president
519
00:32:58,174 --> 00:33:01,781
and other close aides
to the president.
520
00:33:04,781 --> 00:33:08,186
It was a day anyone involved
will never forget.
521
00:33:10,186 --> 00:33:17,059
The inevitable ugly ending
of an unsuccessful effort.
522
00:33:17,060 --> 00:33:20,532
Do you think that there's
a lesson to be taken from this?
523
00:33:22,532 --> 00:33:24,333
Well, one would hope
that most things
524
00:33:24,334 --> 00:33:28,171
that happen in life
prove to be lessons.
525
00:33:28,172 --> 00:33:29,372
Some things work out.
526
00:33:29,373 --> 00:33:31,710
Some things don't.
That didn't.
527
00:33:33,710 --> 00:33:36,363
If that's a lesson--
yes, it's a lesson.
528
00:33:53,363 --> 00:33:56,298
President Gerald Ford
had given a talk
529
00:33:56,299 --> 00:33:58,433
to a labor group.
530
00:34:05,209 --> 00:34:06,741
He went out the back,
531
00:34:06,742 --> 00:34:10,446
and we went into
a freight elevator.
532
00:34:10,447 --> 00:34:12,180
The doors went open,
533
00:34:12,181 --> 00:34:13,482
we walked out,
534
00:34:13,483 --> 00:34:16,718
and the top door came back down,
535
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,323
and it hit Gerald Ford
right across the forehead.
536
00:34:20,324 --> 00:34:25,328
And he ended up with a cut
about an inch and a half wide.
537
00:34:25,329 --> 00:34:28,163
Of course, at that moment,
Chevy chase and these people
538
00:34:28,164 --> 00:34:30,232
were talking about Ford
bumping his head
539
00:34:30,233 --> 00:34:32,773
or stumbling.
540
00:34:37,773 --> 00:34:40,243
So we went up in the room
and the doctor started
541
00:34:40,244 --> 00:34:42,678
putting powder on it
to see if he could calm it down
542
00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:45,348
so it didn't look like
a neon sign.
543
00:34:45,349 --> 00:34:47,415
It came time to leave.
544
00:34:47,416 --> 00:34:49,785
He waved and shook hands.
545
00:34:49,786 --> 00:34:53,221
Got out to the street corner...
546
00:34:54,423 --> 00:34:55,725
A shot rang out.
547
00:34:57,561 --> 00:35:01,163
Sara Jane Moore
was across the street,
548
00:35:01,164 --> 00:35:02,603
fired a bullet.
549
00:35:07,603 --> 00:35:08,870
It went by his head,
550
00:35:08,871 --> 00:35:10,372
by the secret service
guy's head,
551
00:35:10,373 --> 00:35:13,209
by my head.
552
00:35:16,213 --> 00:35:18,281
A matter of inches
from both of us.
553
00:35:21,418 --> 00:35:22,618
We got in the car,
554
00:35:22,619 --> 00:35:24,486
pushed him down
on the floor, and...
555
00:35:24,487 --> 00:35:26,656
Secret service man on top,
I'm on top.
556
00:35:26,657 --> 00:35:28,857
The car races out of the city...
557
00:35:30,527 --> 00:35:32,962
...not knowing
what might be next.
558
00:35:32,963 --> 00:35:34,930
Finally you hear
this muffled thing
559
00:35:34,931 --> 00:35:36,665
from president Ford,
and he says,
560
00:35:36,666 --> 00:35:37,799
"come on, you guys.
561
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,267
Get off.
You're heavy."
562
00:35:39,268 --> 00:35:41,404
And so we sat up,
563
00:35:41,405 --> 00:35:45,876
went to the airplane, and left.
564
00:35:46,876 --> 00:35:48,810
I used to tease him and say
565
00:35:48,811 --> 00:35:53,316
I hoped he appreciated fully
how I handled his departure
566
00:35:53,317 --> 00:35:55,817
from the hotel in San Francisco.
567
00:35:55,818 --> 00:35:57,252
No one ever noticed
568
00:35:57,253 --> 00:35:59,965
that he had the neon sign
on his forehead.
569
00:36:07,965 --> 00:36:11,801
"Mr. President,
I care a great deal
570
00:36:11,802 --> 00:36:15,437
about you as a person
and about your success.
571
00:36:15,438 --> 00:36:18,741
I care deeply about the country
572
00:36:18,742 --> 00:36:21,243
and believe
it is vitally important
573
00:36:21,244 --> 00:36:23,578
that you be re-elected.
574
00:36:23,579 --> 00:36:27,350
The morale is low
in the White House
575
00:36:27,351 --> 00:36:30,757
because of the organizational
approach you have tolerated.
576
00:36:33,757 --> 00:36:37,692
The job you need done
cannot be done
577
00:36:37,693 --> 00:36:40,501
unless major changes
take place."
578
00:36:44,501 --> 00:36:47,303
Dick Cheney and I
both attached our resignations
579
00:36:47,304 --> 00:36:50,739
to the memo.
580
00:36:50,740 --> 00:36:52,575
There wasn't anything
in the memo
581
00:36:52,576 --> 00:36:54,616
I hadn't talked to him about
four, five, six times.
582
00:36:54,617 --> 00:36:57,312
I decided that putting it down
in one place,
583
00:36:57,313 --> 00:36:58,848
deciding to resign,
584
00:36:58,849 --> 00:37:02,987
causing him to register
how strongly we felt about it.
585
00:37:03,987 --> 00:37:07,522
He ended up separating
the positions
586
00:37:07,523 --> 00:37:11,294
of secretary of state
and national security advisor,
587
00:37:11,295 --> 00:37:13,729
which Henry had held
both of them.
588
00:37:13,730 --> 00:37:17,799
And he made
several other changes.
589
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:19,368
Put George Herbert Walker bush
590
00:37:19,369 --> 00:37:22,638
in the central
intelligence agency.
591
00:37:22,639 --> 00:37:25,508
He wanted to make a change
at the Pentagon,
592
00:37:25,509 --> 00:37:28,944
asked me to become
secretary of defense,
593
00:37:28,945 --> 00:37:33,448
then my deputy, Dick Cheney,
to become chief of staff.
594
00:37:33,449 --> 00:37:37,687
Of course, this becomes
known as the Halloween massacre.
595
00:37:37,688 --> 00:37:38,888
Oh.
596
00:37:38,889 --> 00:37:40,723
I guess it is.
597
00:37:40,724 --> 00:37:42,991
You know, a narrative
gets built out there
598
00:37:42,992 --> 00:37:44,727
over a period of time.
599
00:37:44,728 --> 00:37:47,997
Big personalities
going at each other.
600
00:37:47,998 --> 00:37:50,700
In fact,
it's perfectly understandable.
601
00:37:50,701 --> 00:37:52,468
They represent
different institutions,
602
00:37:52,469 --> 00:37:53,949
and they have
different perspectives.
603
00:37:54,003 --> 00:37:55,837
But it gets written up
in the media
604
00:37:55,838 --> 00:37:58,874
as though it's jealousies
and personalities
605
00:37:58,875 --> 00:38:01,643
and that type of thing
as opposed to
606
00:38:01,644 --> 00:38:03,349
different perspectives.
607
00:38:06,349 --> 00:38:08,718
When Shakespeare wrote history,
608
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:14,756
it was all character defects,
jealousies,
609
00:38:14,757 --> 00:38:16,926
misunderstandings,
610
00:38:16,927 --> 00:38:19,662
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
611
00:38:19,663 --> 00:38:22,497
In Shakespeare,
it's the motivating force
612
00:38:22,498 --> 00:38:23,348
of history.
613
00:38:28,137 --> 00:38:31,007
Maybe Shakespeare got it wrong.
614
00:38:32,007 --> 00:38:34,743
Well, you know,
it was a different time.
615
00:38:34,744 --> 00:38:37,480
He was dealing
with different issues.
616
00:38:37,481 --> 00:38:38,714
Maybe he had it right.
617
00:38:38,715 --> 00:38:41,021
Maybe it just was different
later.
618
00:38:45,021 --> 00:38:48,624
Nelson Rockefeller has taken
himself out of consideration
619
00:38:48,625 --> 00:38:50,158
as a vice presidential candidate
620
00:38:50,159 --> 00:38:51,960
on president Ford's ticket
next year.
621
00:38:51,961 --> 00:38:53,721
Rockefeller has
little choice in the matter.
622
00:38:53,722 --> 00:38:56,531
Rumsfeld's calculated plan
to pave his own way
623
00:38:56,532 --> 00:38:58,466
as a running mate
for president Ford.
624
00:38:58,467 --> 00:39:00,220
Donald Rumsfeld has
been mentioned for months
625
00:39:00,221 --> 00:39:02,781
as a possible vice presidential
running mate with president Ford.
626
00:39:03,005 --> 00:39:04,439
...in congress think
his new job
627
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:05,808
as defense secretary is a means
628
00:39:05,809 --> 00:39:07,442
of putting Rumsfeld
in the running
629
00:39:07,443 --> 00:39:09,044
for the vice presidency.
630
00:39:09,045 --> 00:39:11,080
Donald Rumsfeld
takes over the Pentagon
631
00:39:11,081 --> 00:39:13,749
but also keeps most
of his personal influence
632
00:39:13,750 --> 00:39:14,984
with president Ford.
633
00:39:14,985 --> 00:39:16,185
...the shake-up
took place.
634
00:39:16,186 --> 00:39:17,752
The consensus is that Rumsfeld
635
00:39:17,753 --> 00:39:19,087
again emerged the winner.
636
00:39:19,088 --> 00:39:20,555
Rumsfeld's
conservative influence
637
00:39:20,556 --> 00:39:22,036
at the White House
will be carried on
638
00:39:22,037 --> 00:39:23,892
by 34-year-old
Richard Cheney,
639
00:39:23,893 --> 00:39:25,794
who said in his office
this afternoon,
640
00:39:25,795 --> 00:39:29,101
he'll be running things
just like don did.
641
00:39:31,101 --> 00:39:34,736
In November 1975...
642
00:39:36,873 --> 00:39:41,544
I became the youngest secretary
of defense in history.
643
00:39:56,559 --> 00:39:57,926
It's important, I suppose,
644
00:39:57,927 --> 00:40:00,229
to go back
and set the background
645
00:40:00,230 --> 00:40:02,702
for this occasion.
646
00:40:05,702 --> 00:40:08,870
Henry Kissinger had the job
647
00:40:08,871 --> 00:40:13,241
of fostering Detentes,
648
00:40:13,242 --> 00:40:16,614
a lessening of tension
with the Soviet Union.
649
00:40:18,614 --> 00:40:20,783
The more talk there was
about Detentes
650
00:40:20,784 --> 00:40:22,618
and the more
these negotiations went on
651
00:40:22,619 --> 00:40:26,689
and the more people sat around
clinking champagne glasses
652
00:40:26,690 --> 00:40:28,256
with great big smiles,
653
00:40:28,257 --> 00:40:30,526
and the world saw all of that,
654
00:40:30,527 --> 00:40:32,060
the congress
and the American people
655
00:40:32,061 --> 00:40:34,796
would not be in favor of
increasing defense investment.
656
00:40:34,797 --> 00:40:38,600
It was really fundamental
differences of approach.
657
00:40:38,601 --> 00:40:42,971
Weakness, historically,
tends to prove to be provocative
658
00:40:42,972 --> 00:40:45,707
and create instabilities
in wars and conflicts.
659
00:40:45,708 --> 00:40:47,877
Strength on our part
will contribute
660
00:40:47,878 --> 00:40:49,318
to peace and stability
in the world.
661
00:40:49,319 --> 00:40:50,745
I'm not saying with certainty
662
00:40:50,746 --> 00:40:51,913
that the Russians are coming.
663
00:40:51,914 --> 00:40:53,649
I'm saying the trends are here.
664
00:40:53,650 --> 00:40:55,450
I'm not saying
the Russians are 10 feet tall.
665
00:40:55,451 --> 00:40:56,785
I'm saying they used to be 5'3".
666
00:40:56,786 --> 00:40:58,153
They're now 5'9 1/2",
667
00:40:58,154 --> 00:41:00,157
and they're growing,
and we're not.
668
00:41:02,157 --> 00:41:06,928
To be brand-new
in the department of defense
669
00:41:06,929 --> 00:41:11,966
with a presidential campaign
going on,
670
00:41:11,967 --> 00:41:15,303
my task was to meet with members
of the United States congress.
671
00:41:15,304 --> 00:41:18,540
Small, intimate setting
where I could take
672
00:41:18,541 --> 00:41:19,774
a classified briefing
673
00:41:19,775 --> 00:41:22,278
and show them
the overhead photographs
674
00:41:22,279 --> 00:41:24,846
that were highly classified,
that were top secret,
675
00:41:24,847 --> 00:41:28,253
let them see for themselves
what the Soviet Union was doing.
676
00:41:31,253 --> 00:41:34,290
I would get 6 or 8 or 10 of them
677
00:41:34,291 --> 00:41:36,058
and bring them down
to the Roosevelt room,
678
00:41:36,059 --> 00:41:37,892
which is right
across from the oval office
679
00:41:37,893 --> 00:41:39,333
in the west wing
of the White House.
680
00:41:39,334 --> 00:41:40,995
Not in the Pentagon;
In the White House.
681
00:41:40,996 --> 00:41:44,198
In the White House, absolutely.
682
00:41:44,199 --> 00:41:46,067
If you have a meeting
in the White House
683
00:41:46,068 --> 00:41:47,268
in the Roosevelt room,
684
00:41:47,269 --> 00:41:48,636
and the president stops by
685
00:41:48,637 --> 00:41:49,872
and says hello to 'em,
686
00:41:49,873 --> 00:41:54,109
it is much more memorable
for them.
687
00:41:54,110 --> 00:41:56,946
I had a major fraction of
all the United States senators
688
00:41:56,947 --> 00:41:58,913
and all the members
of the congress
689
00:41:58,914 --> 00:42:00,281
come in to those meetings,
690
00:42:00,282 --> 00:42:04,118
you know, night after
night after night.
691
00:42:04,119 --> 00:42:06,589
When you would show
these photographs to people
692
00:42:06,590 --> 00:42:09,325
from satellites
or from a u-2,
693
00:42:09,326 --> 00:42:11,030
people were amazed by them.
694
00:42:15,030 --> 00:42:20,803
In addition, we prepared a
unclassified series of charts.
695
00:42:20,804 --> 00:42:25,306
One was on U.S./U.S.S.R.
Military manpower.
696
00:42:25,307 --> 00:42:30,946
Another one had U.S. and Soviet
military investment...
697
00:42:36,152 --> 00:42:39,059
Intercontinental
ballistic missile developments...
698
00:42:44,059 --> 00:42:47,328
Changes in
strategic force levels...
699
00:42:48,264 --> 00:42:52,334
Warheads, megatonnage,
700
00:42:52,335 --> 00:42:56,738
estimated production rates.
701
00:42:56,739 --> 00:42:59,975
No one statistic
was determinative.
702
00:42:59,976 --> 00:43:02,910
What was important is,
what were the trend lines?
703
00:43:27,404 --> 00:43:32,411
Did it come as a surprise
that Carter beat Ford in 1976?
704
00:43:34,411 --> 00:43:39,281
He started out way behind.
705
00:43:39,282 --> 00:43:42,451
If it had gone on
another week or two,
706
00:43:42,452 --> 00:43:45,888
he might very well have won.
707
00:44:06,275 --> 00:44:08,176
The republican
national convention
708
00:44:08,177 --> 00:44:10,913
begins here tomorrow, and most
of the players are in place.
709
00:44:10,914 --> 00:44:13,154
Everybody's playing the
vice presidential guessing game.
710
00:44:13,155 --> 00:44:14,883
One big question remains.
711
00:44:14,884 --> 00:44:16,722
Who will be Reagan's
vice presidential choice?
712
00:44:16,723 --> 00:44:18,599
The Republicans are
floating some of the rumors
713
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,189
in an effort to keep--
714
00:44:20,190 --> 00:44:22,063
the list includes former
ambassador George Bush,
715
00:44:22,064 --> 00:44:23,792
who gave Reagan his
toughest primary battle,
716
00:44:23,793 --> 00:44:25,761
or the defense secretary,
Donald Rumsfeld.
717
00:44:25,762 --> 00:44:27,620
The questions about
Rumsfeld are whether his ties
718
00:44:27,621 --> 00:44:29,163
to republican big business are too close
719
00:44:29,164 --> 00:44:31,165
and whether he's too ambitious
to fit in
720
00:44:31,166 --> 00:44:32,487
playing second fiddle to Reagan.
721
00:44:35,070 --> 00:44:38,741
There is the picture
of Donald Rumsfeld
722
00:44:38,742 --> 00:44:43,345
as Machiavelli,
and that you managed
723
00:44:43,346 --> 00:44:46,147
George H.W. Bush
into the CIA
724
00:44:46,148 --> 00:44:50,151
as a way of destroying
his presidential ambitions.
725
00:44:50,152 --> 00:44:52,053
It's utter nonsense.
726
00:44:52,054 --> 00:44:53,254
He had to know the truth.
727
00:44:53,255 --> 00:44:55,256
And why he would
promote that idea--
728
00:44:55,257 --> 00:44:58,426
he must have believed it
for some reason.
729
00:44:58,427 --> 00:45:00,495
I suppose it's kind of
more fun for somebody
730
00:45:00,496 --> 00:45:02,830
to be able to say
they were pushed,
731
00:45:02,831 --> 00:45:04,938
rather than they tripped.
732
00:45:09,938 --> 00:45:13,875
Reagan was up a floor above.
733
00:45:13,876 --> 00:45:17,312
I was with my wife, Joyce.
734
00:45:17,313 --> 00:45:19,413
I had a man glued at my hip,
735
00:45:19,414 --> 00:45:22,451
ready to tell me
if governor Reagan called
736
00:45:22,452 --> 00:45:25,523
and wanted me
to be vice president.
737
00:45:27,523 --> 00:45:33,529
The press was filled
with this excitement
738
00:45:33,530 --> 00:45:37,332
about the possibility
of president Reagan
739
00:45:37,333 --> 00:45:39,567
selecting Gerald R. Ford.
740
00:45:39,568 --> 00:45:43,337
I was stunned at the thought.
741
00:45:43,338 --> 00:45:46,107
It's like sticking four hands
on the steering wheel.
742
00:45:46,108 --> 00:45:48,843
You're gonna end up
putting the truck in the ditch.
743
00:45:48,844 --> 00:45:50,078
My phone rang.
744
00:45:50,079 --> 00:45:52,046
It was governor Reagan.
745
00:45:52,047 --> 00:45:54,316
He said, "don,
746
00:45:54,317 --> 00:45:57,386
I want you to know
that I've decided to have
747
00:45:57,387 --> 00:46:02,223
George Bush be
my vice presidential nominee."
748
00:46:02,224 --> 00:46:05,294
I said, "fantastic.
749
00:46:05,295 --> 00:46:08,163
I am so relieved
750
00:46:08,164 --> 00:46:11,066
that you decided
not to have Gerald Ford."
751
00:46:11,067 --> 00:46:13,968
He said, "oh, no, don.
752
00:46:13,969 --> 00:46:16,038
Jerry and I decided together
753
00:46:16,039 --> 00:46:17,359
that it wouldn't be
a good idea."
754
00:46:20,909 --> 00:46:23,145
It seems to me
that if that decision
755
00:46:23,146 --> 00:46:25,314
had gone
a slightly different way,
756
00:46:25,315 --> 00:46:27,381
you would have been
vice president
757
00:46:27,382 --> 00:46:32,287
and future president
of the United States.
758
00:46:32,288 --> 00:46:33,630
That's possible.
759
00:46:40,630 --> 00:46:43,232
I was living in Illinois
760
00:46:43,233 --> 00:46:46,901
and was chief executive officer
of a pharmaceutical company,
761
00:46:46,902 --> 00:46:49,971
G.D. Searle and co.
762
00:46:49,972 --> 00:46:53,375
In a barracks in Beirut,
763
00:46:53,376 --> 00:46:57,613
a truck loaded with explosives
764
00:46:57,614 --> 00:47:01,418
came racing through the gate,
under the building.
765
00:47:03,418 --> 00:47:07,427
Killed 241 Americans.
766
00:47:11,427 --> 00:47:14,395
Shortly after,
the secretary of state,
767
00:47:14,396 --> 00:47:16,330
George Shultz, called and said
768
00:47:16,331 --> 00:47:18,366
that they wanted me to serve
769
00:47:18,367 --> 00:47:21,435
as special envoy
for president Reagan
770
00:47:21,436 --> 00:47:22,671
to the Middle East.
771
00:47:22,672 --> 00:47:24,640
...with our new representative.
772
00:47:24,641 --> 00:47:28,042
So, don, good luck,
and our hearts are with you.
773
00:47:28,043 --> 00:47:29,477
Mr. President--
774
00:47:29,478 --> 00:47:33,982
I began traveling in the region.
775
00:47:33,983 --> 00:47:38,486
I would send cables back
776
00:47:38,487 --> 00:47:43,929
trying to report back
on my observations.
777
00:47:45,929 --> 00:47:50,364
I entitled one of them,
back in November of 1983,
778
00:47:50,365 --> 00:47:52,175
"the swamp."
779
00:47:59,175 --> 00:48:01,509
"I suspect we ought
to lighten our hand
780
00:48:01,510 --> 00:48:04,613
in the Middle East.
781
00:48:04,614 --> 00:48:08,616
We should move the framework
away from the current situation
782
00:48:08,617 --> 00:48:11,620
where everyone is telling us
everything is our fault
783
00:48:11,621 --> 00:48:13,689
and angry with us
784
00:48:13,690 --> 00:48:17,959
to a basis where
they are seeking our help.
785
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,062
In the future,
we should never use U.S. troops
786
00:48:21,063 --> 00:48:25,200
as a peacekeeping force.
787
00:48:25,201 --> 00:48:28,537
We're too big a target.
788
00:48:28,538 --> 00:48:34,642
Let the Fijians
or New Zealanders do that.
789
00:48:34,643 --> 00:48:36,243
And keep reminding ourselves
790
00:48:36,244 --> 00:48:39,247
that it is easier
to get into something
791
00:48:39,248 --> 00:48:41,086
than it is to get out of it.
792
00:48:44,086 --> 00:48:45,354
I promise you,
793
00:48:45,355 --> 00:48:48,689
you will never hear
out of my mouth the phrase,
794
00:48:48,690 --> 00:48:51,027
'the U.S. seeks
a just and lasting peace
795
00:48:52,027 --> 00:48:53,766
in the Middle East.'
796
00:48:57,766 --> 00:49:00,569
there is little that is just,
797
00:49:00,570 --> 00:49:04,339
and the only things I've seen
that are lasting
798
00:49:04,340 --> 00:49:09,182
are conflict, blackmail,
and killing."
799
00:49:30,733 --> 00:49:34,703
We arrived at night,
as I recall.
800
00:49:34,704 --> 00:49:40,107
The building where
Saddam Hussein had his office
801
00:49:40,108 --> 00:49:41,375
had sandbags all around it
802
00:49:41,376 --> 00:49:42,810
because Baghdad is so close
803
00:49:42,811 --> 00:49:44,613
to the Iranian border.
804
00:49:44,614 --> 00:49:46,381
And they were at war with Iran,
805
00:49:46,382 --> 00:49:48,817
and they were being shelled
from time to time.
806
00:49:48,818 --> 00:49:51,553
We went into this building,
got in an elevator,
807
00:49:51,554 --> 00:49:53,622
went up,
got out of the elevator,
808
00:49:53,623 --> 00:49:56,323
and the three or four people
I was with
809
00:49:56,324 --> 00:49:57,526
were walking along.
810
00:49:57,527 --> 00:50:01,296
All of a sudden,
an Iraqi cut me off
811
00:50:01,297 --> 00:50:04,499
and took me down a corridor,
a dark corridor.
812
00:50:04,500 --> 00:50:07,636
Oh, yeah, I don't know,
20 paces, 30 paces.
813
00:50:07,637 --> 00:50:09,671
And then into a room.
814
00:50:09,672 --> 00:50:11,305
And I was alone in the room,
815
00:50:11,306 --> 00:50:13,508
and I looked up,
and here is this man
816
00:50:13,509 --> 00:50:17,111
in fatigues
with a pistol on his hip.
817
00:50:17,112 --> 00:50:19,080
And it turned out
to be Tariq Aziz,
818
00:50:19,081 --> 00:50:22,856
the deputy prime minister
and foreign minister.
819
00:50:27,856 --> 00:50:32,259
It was hours that we were
in there talking alone.
820
00:50:32,260 --> 00:50:34,462
It looked like
it had leather walls,
821
00:50:34,463 --> 00:50:35,796
padded walls,
822
00:50:35,797 --> 00:50:37,732
maybe Naugahyde or something.
823
00:50:37,733 --> 00:50:39,453
We would have a meeting
with Saddam Hussein
824
00:50:39,454 --> 00:50:42,337
the next morning,
and the time was set.
825
00:50:42,338 --> 00:50:46,246
And we went in,
and there he was.
826
00:50:50,246 --> 00:50:55,716
A brutal dictator
in his military fatigues
827
00:50:55,717 --> 00:50:57,759
with his pistol at his hip.
828
00:51:03,759 --> 00:51:05,493
It was just a preliminary step,
829
00:51:05,494 --> 00:51:07,495
and it became almost iconic...
830
00:51:08,831 --> 00:51:12,701
...my shaking hands
with this brutal dictator
831
00:51:12,702 --> 00:51:16,813
who later became known as
"the butcher of Baghdad."
832
00:51:24,813 --> 00:51:26,614
He postured constantly
833
00:51:26,615 --> 00:51:30,584
and was presenting himself
as the great leader,
834
00:51:30,585 --> 00:51:32,486
which dictators apparently do.
835
00:51:32,487 --> 00:51:36,258
They foster that,
and have schoolkids praise them,
836
00:51:36,259 --> 00:51:38,459
make sure that their image
is everywhere,
837
00:51:38,460 --> 00:51:41,328
whether in a photograph
or a statue,
838
00:51:41,329 --> 00:51:45,167
and cause people
to bow and kowtow.
839
00:51:45,168 --> 00:51:47,835
And, you know, if you see
your picture everywhere
840
00:51:47,836 --> 00:51:50,671
long enough,
and if you see enough statues,
841
00:51:50,672 --> 00:51:53,741
pretty soon you might even
begin to believe that.
842
00:51:53,742 --> 00:51:57,578
He almost became
a caricature of himself,
843
00:51:57,579 --> 00:52:02,850
by my standards, as an outsider
not prone to worship idols.
844
00:52:02,851 --> 00:52:08,189
He was living
his image of himself,
845
00:52:08,190 --> 00:52:10,597
which was pretend.
846
00:52:49,864 --> 00:52:51,433
There are those
who suggest today
847
00:52:51,434 --> 00:52:52,933
that the United States
is in decline,
848
00:52:52,934 --> 00:52:54,803
that, in fact, we should allow
849
00:52:54,804 --> 00:52:57,638
someone else to contribute
to the stability in the world.
850
00:52:57,639 --> 00:52:59,406
I happen to disagree with that,
851
00:52:59,407 --> 00:53:01,343
and I think that we need
to provide leadership,
852
00:53:01,344 --> 00:53:03,512
and I think that leadership
can make an enormous difference
853
00:53:03,513 --> 00:53:06,948
in what the world's gonna look like
in the 1990s and the year 2000.
854
00:53:06,949 --> 00:53:09,317
If you read the newspapers
or watch television today,
855
00:53:09,318 --> 00:53:11,453
and you look at the polls,
856
00:53:11,454 --> 00:53:12,953
first they rank Gorbachev
857
00:53:12,954 --> 00:53:14,989
as the reason that
these changes are occurring,
858
00:53:14,990 --> 00:53:16,890
and second,
they gave Reagan some credit,
859
00:53:16,891 --> 00:53:18,959
which is ridiculous.
860
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:21,796
The credit belongs
to Truman and Adenauer
861
00:53:21,797 --> 00:53:24,633
and to steadfastness
over a period of 40 years.
862
00:53:24,634 --> 00:53:26,003
The credit goes
to the investments
863
00:53:27,003 --> 00:53:28,403
of billions of dollars
864
00:53:28,404 --> 00:53:29,884
over a long, sustained
period of time
865
00:53:30,005 --> 00:53:32,473
by people who were carped at
and criticized
866
00:53:32,474 --> 00:53:35,310
and said, "oh, my goodness,
you're warmongers."
867
00:53:35,311 --> 00:53:37,678
It went to the concept
of peace through strength.
868
00:53:37,679 --> 00:53:41,383
And we need to understand
how we got to where we are,
869
00:53:41,384 --> 00:53:44,852
because going forward, we're
gonna have to make a judgment
870
00:53:44,853 --> 00:53:47,656
as to what role
our country ought to play,
871
00:53:47,657 --> 00:53:50,457
and a passive role
would be terribly dangerous.
872
00:53:50,458 --> 00:53:51,692
But who do we want to lead--
873
00:53:51,693 --> 00:53:53,662
provide leadership in the world?
874
00:53:53,663 --> 00:53:54,513
Somebody else?
875
00:54:08,610 --> 00:54:11,546
We're here today
to swear in don Rumsfeld
876
00:54:11,547 --> 00:54:13,515
as secretary of defense
and welcome him back
877
00:54:13,516 --> 00:54:15,750
to the public service.
878
00:54:15,751 --> 00:54:18,620
We were colleagues in government
for nearly six years,
879
00:54:18,621 --> 00:54:21,023
and here, quite simply, is a
man who's been an executive,
880
00:54:22,023 --> 00:54:24,565
a statesman, and a human being
of the first order.
881
00:54:30,565 --> 00:54:32,600
I assume that Dick Cheney
brought you
882
00:54:32,601 --> 00:54:34,669
into the bush administration.
883
00:54:34,670 --> 00:54:37,339
I would assume that's the case.
884
00:54:37,340 --> 00:54:42,544
I don't think George W. Bush's
father recommended it.
885
00:54:47,048 --> 00:54:51,752
Obviously, George W. Bush
was his own man,
886
00:54:51,753 --> 00:54:54,458
made his own decisions.
887
00:54:56,458 --> 00:54:58,059
"Subject: Chain of command."
888
00:54:59,027 --> 00:55:02,464
A memo to Condoleezza Rice.
889
00:55:02,465 --> 00:55:05,600
"Because I've failed
to get you and the N.S.C. Staff
890
00:55:05,601 --> 00:55:08,470
to stop giving tasks
to combatant commanders
891
00:55:08,471 --> 00:55:09,803
and the joint staff,
892
00:55:09,804 --> 00:55:11,638
I've drafted
the attached memorandum.
893
00:55:11,639 --> 00:55:13,107
I'd hoped it would
not be necessary
894
00:55:13,108 --> 00:55:14,975
for me to do it this way,
895
00:55:14,976 --> 00:55:16,643
but since your last memo stated
896
00:55:16,644 --> 00:55:19,381
that we should work it out
from our end,
897
00:55:19,382 --> 00:55:20,915
I'm forced to do so.
898
00:55:20,916 --> 00:55:22,584
You are making a mistake.
899
00:55:22,585 --> 00:55:24,118
You're not in
the chain of command.
900
00:55:24,119 --> 00:55:27,055
Since you cannot seem
to accept that fact,
901
00:55:27,056 --> 00:55:29,056
my only choices
are to go to the president
902
00:55:29,057 --> 00:55:30,991
and ask him to tell you to stop
903
00:55:30,992 --> 00:55:34,129
or to tell anyone
in the department of defense
904
00:55:34,130 --> 00:55:35,696
not to respond to you
905
00:55:35,697 --> 00:55:38,066
or the national
security council staff.
906
00:55:38,067 --> 00:55:40,167
I've decided
to take the latter course.
907
00:55:40,168 --> 00:55:42,470
If it fails, I'll have to go
to the president.
908
00:55:42,471 --> 00:55:43,837
One way or other, it will stop,
909
00:55:43,838 --> 00:55:46,473
while I am secretary of defense.
910
00:55:46,474 --> 00:55:48,045
Thanks."
911
00:55:51,045 --> 00:55:52,814
Waging a high-profile war
912
00:55:52,815 --> 00:55:54,915
has thrust Donald Rumsfeld
into the public eye.
913
00:55:54,916 --> 00:55:56,850
Two months into
the war against terror--
914
00:55:56,851 --> 00:55:59,421
Rumsfeld, who has
become the voice of the war.
915
00:55:59,422 --> 00:56:00,921
80% public approval.
916
00:56:00,922 --> 00:56:03,056
Give and take
with the Pentagon press corps
917
00:56:03,057 --> 00:56:05,197
is now must-see television.
918
00:56:09,197 --> 00:56:10,564
Greetings.
919
00:56:10,565 --> 00:56:11,799
Good morning.
920
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:13,201
Good afternoon.
921
00:56:13,202 --> 00:56:15,169
You know, something's
neither good nor bad
922
00:56:15,170 --> 00:56:18,071
but thinking makes it so,
I suppose.
923
00:56:18,072 --> 00:56:19,441
Yes, you may ask that...
924
00:56:20,708 --> 00:56:22,209
But will I answer that?
No.
925
00:56:22,210 --> 00:56:23,912
I do not want the record to show
926
00:56:23,913 --> 00:56:26,080
that I even bothered
to deny it, however.
927
00:56:26,081 --> 00:56:29,049
So I've decided that
I'm not gonna go asking
928
00:56:29,050 --> 00:56:30,618
for an unclassified
piece of paper.
929
00:56:30,619 --> 00:56:32,520
I don't need it.
You need it.
930
00:56:32,521 --> 00:56:35,457
So you get told things
every day that don't happen.
931
00:56:35,458 --> 00:56:36,957
It doesn't seem
to bother people.
932
00:56:36,958 --> 00:56:39,727
But I'm working my way
over to figuring out
933
00:56:39,728 --> 00:56:41,162
how I won't answer that.
934
00:56:41,163 --> 00:56:42,663
We'll make this
the last question.
935
00:56:42,664 --> 00:56:44,232
Last question.
936
00:56:44,233 --> 00:56:45,987
Mr. secretary, could I just
ask one thing about Gitmo?
937
00:56:45,988 --> 00:56:47,008
Oh, no, no, I love that ending.
938
00:56:47,009 --> 00:56:48,736
I'm--uh--
939
00:56:48,737 --> 00:56:51,143
if you think I'm gonna mess
that one up, you're wrong.
940
00:57:01,016 --> 00:57:04,185
The U.S. and its Afghan
allies clearly have the momentum
941
00:57:04,186 --> 00:57:06,120
in the battle for Tora Bora.
942
00:57:06,121 --> 00:57:08,023
Secretary Rumsfeld admitted
it is unclear
943
00:57:09,023 --> 00:57:10,591
when this fight will end.
944
00:57:10,592 --> 00:57:12,560
The number of
prisoners is climbing.
945
00:57:12,561 --> 00:57:14,962
Two weeks ago,
secretary Rumsfeld dismissed
946
00:57:14,963 --> 00:57:17,165
the idea of detaining
large numbers
947
00:57:17,166 --> 00:57:18,665
of captured fighters.
948
00:57:18,666 --> 00:57:20,567
Well, this week,
he reversed himself,
949
00:57:20,568 --> 00:57:24,643
saying a large number would
likely be taken into custody.
950
00:57:27,643 --> 00:57:30,278
"January 19, 2002."
951
00:57:30,279 --> 00:57:31,812
The subject:
952
00:57:31,813 --> 00:57:35,616
"Status of Taliban
and Al-Qaeda."
953
00:57:35,617 --> 00:57:37,685
"The United States
has determined
954
00:57:37,686 --> 00:57:40,754
that Al-Qaeda and Taliban
individuals
955
00:57:40,755 --> 00:57:44,225
under the control
of the department of defense,
956
00:57:44,226 --> 00:57:47,761
are not entitled
to prisoner of war status
957
00:57:47,762 --> 00:57:52,734
for purposes of the Geneva
conventions of 1949."
958
00:57:52,735 --> 00:57:54,968
Don't you think
that the decision on Geneva
959
00:57:54,969 --> 00:57:57,772
caused so much trouble?
960
00:57:57,773 --> 00:58:00,808
Oh, my goodness, it would
have been so much easier
961
00:58:00,809 --> 00:58:02,877
if you could treat people,
all of them,
962
00:58:02,878 --> 00:58:06,113
the same as prisoners of war.
963
00:58:06,114 --> 00:58:09,149
Then you wouldn't have
to interrogate anybody.
964
00:58:09,150 --> 00:58:13,654
You could just house them
someplace.
965
00:58:13,655 --> 00:58:15,924
Now, would that have been
a responsible thing
966
00:58:15,925 --> 00:58:18,792
for the president
to do? No.
967
00:58:18,793 --> 00:58:22,230
The president needed to know
what was gonna happen next.
968
00:58:22,231 --> 00:58:24,265
Every day,
the intelligence reports said,
969
00:58:24,266 --> 00:58:25,899
"this is a risk.
This is a risk.
970
00:58:25,900 --> 00:58:27,900
Watch out for this.
Something could happen there."
971
00:58:27,901 --> 00:58:31,978
It was the responsibility of the president
to try to prevent a future attack.
972
00:58:36,978 --> 00:58:38,712
Tell you what I'm gonna do.
973
00:58:38,713 --> 00:58:41,281
I am gonna stay here
974
00:58:41,282 --> 00:58:44,285
and answer as many
detainee questions
975
00:58:44,286 --> 00:58:46,988
as need to be answered.
976
00:58:46,989 --> 00:58:48,549
I don't know
that I'll know the answers
977
00:58:48,550 --> 00:58:49,857
to all the questions,
but I--
978
00:58:49,858 --> 00:58:51,292
if I don't, we'll find them,
979
00:58:51,293 --> 00:58:54,062
because it seems to me
it's time to tap down
980
00:58:54,063 --> 00:58:56,296
some of this hyperbole
that we're finding.
981
00:58:56,297 --> 00:58:58,066
Mr. secretary--
Mr. secretary--
982
00:58:58,067 --> 00:58:59,667
- Mr. secretary--
- Mr. secretary.
983
00:58:59,668 --> 00:59:01,308
Is John Walker being treated
the same way
984
00:59:01,309 --> 00:59:03,337
- as the other detainees?
- Yes.
985
00:59:03,338 --> 00:59:04,906
Shackled,
hooded in the transfer--
986
00:59:04,907 --> 00:59:06,607
oh, my goodness.
Now, look.
987
00:59:06,608 --> 00:59:08,642
Is he being treated
like the other detainees,
988
00:59:08,643 --> 00:59:11,044
shackled, hooded,
and what have you?
989
00:59:11,045 --> 00:59:15,049
Oh, well,
let me say this about that.
990
00:59:15,050 --> 00:59:18,752
When people are moved,
they are restrained.
991
00:59:18,753 --> 00:59:21,689
That is true in prisons
across the globe.
992
00:59:21,690 --> 00:59:25,759
Will any single prisoner
be treated humanely?
993
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:27,160
You bet.
994
00:59:27,161 --> 00:59:29,196
When they are being moved
from place to place,
995
00:59:29,197 --> 00:59:30,964
will they be restrained in a way
996
00:59:30,965 --> 00:59:33,401
so that they are less likely
to be able to
997
00:59:33,402 --> 00:59:35,203
kill an American soldier?
998
00:59:35,204 --> 00:59:36,337
You bet.
999
00:59:36,338 --> 00:59:39,107
Is it inhumane
to do that? No.
1000
00:59:39,108 --> 00:59:40,841
Would it be stupid
to do anything else?
1001
00:59:40,842 --> 00:59:42,142
Yes.
1002
00:59:42,143 --> 00:59:43,710
Mr. secretary--
1003
01:00:01,664 --> 01:00:04,000
what about all these
so-called "torture memos?"
1004
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:07,003
Well, there were, what,
one or two or three.
1005
01:00:08,003 --> 01:00:10,071
I don't know the number,
but there were not
1006
01:00:10,072 --> 01:00:12,172
"all" of these
so-called memos.
1007
01:00:12,173 --> 01:00:14,942
They were mischaracterized
as torture memos,
1008
01:00:14,943 --> 01:00:17,912
and they came, not out of
the bush administration per se,
1009
01:00:17,913 --> 01:00:21,114
but they came out of
the U.S. department of justice,
1010
01:00:21,115 --> 01:00:22,917
blessed by the Attorney General,
1011
01:00:22,918 --> 01:00:26,386
the senior legal official
of the United States of America,
1012
01:00:26,387 --> 01:00:29,390
having been nominated
by a president and confirmed
1013
01:00:29,391 --> 01:00:34,162
by the United States senate
overwhelmingly.
1014
01:00:34,163 --> 01:00:36,196
Little different cast
I just put on it
1015
01:00:36,197 --> 01:00:38,471
than the one you did.
1016
01:00:44,005 --> 01:00:47,308
I'll chalk that one up.
1017
01:00:47,309 --> 01:00:49,219
Was the reaction unfair?
1018
01:00:57,219 --> 01:00:59,252
Well, I've never read them.
1019
01:00:59,253 --> 01:01:00,488
- Really?
- No.
1020
01:01:00,489 --> 01:01:02,364
I'm not a lawyer.
What would I know?
1021
01:01:09,364 --> 01:01:12,799
I've never seen so much
misinformation communicated
1022
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:18,309
about a place than was the case
about Guantanamo bay, Cuba.
1023
01:01:21,309 --> 01:01:25,212
This prison was
exceedingly well-run,
1024
01:01:25,213 --> 01:01:27,047
yet the impression that's left
1025
01:01:27,048 --> 01:01:29,884
is that it was a terrible place,
1026
01:01:29,885 --> 01:01:33,120
and people were tortured,
and people were abused.
1027
01:01:33,121 --> 01:01:34,888
Prisons aren't pretty places,
1028
01:01:34,889 --> 01:01:37,792
but that prison
is probably as well-run
1029
01:01:37,793 --> 01:01:39,398
as any prison
on the face of the earth.
1030
01:01:43,398 --> 01:01:48,035
If you go and ask somebody
in a big audience,
1031
01:01:48,036 --> 01:01:50,104
"how many people do you think
were waterboarded
1032
01:01:50,105 --> 01:01:52,339
at Guantanamo?"
1033
01:01:52,340 --> 01:01:54,942
And people stick their hands up,
and someone will say,
1034
01:01:54,943 --> 01:01:56,310
"well, hundreds."
1035
01:01:56,311 --> 01:01:58,379
The answer is,
"nobody."
1036
01:01:58,380 --> 01:02:02,049
Zero were waterboarded
at Guantanamo.
1037
01:02:02,050 --> 01:02:04,852
The military
never waterboarded anybody
1038
01:02:04,853 --> 01:02:06,187
in an interrogation.
1039
01:02:06,188 --> 01:02:09,457
The CIA waterboarded,
as I understand it,
1040
01:02:09,458 --> 01:02:11,225
three people.
1041
01:02:11,226 --> 01:02:13,528
But it wasn't at Guantanamo,
and it wasn't done
1042
01:02:13,529 --> 01:02:16,964
by the United States
department of defense.
1043
01:02:16,965 --> 01:02:18,899
Al Qahtani
was never waterboarded?
1044
01:02:18,900 --> 01:02:20,868
No.
1045
01:02:20,869 --> 01:02:22,270
Now, were there some things done
1046
01:02:22,271 --> 01:02:24,238
that shouldn't have been done
at Guantanamo?
1047
01:02:24,239 --> 01:02:25,161
You bet.
1048
01:02:47,161 --> 01:02:48,562
When someone looked
like they were
1049
01:02:48,563 --> 01:02:50,397
a very high-value detainee,
1050
01:02:50,398 --> 01:02:52,433
the department of defense
didn't deal with them.
1051
01:02:52,434 --> 01:02:55,903
The central intelligence agency
did, and properly so.
1052
01:02:55,904 --> 01:02:59,207
In the case of Qahtani,
1053
01:02:59,208 --> 01:03:01,075
he was a high-value detainee,
1054
01:03:01,076 --> 01:03:05,212
and for some reason,
he wasn't transferred.
1055
01:03:05,213 --> 01:03:07,281
Someone junior
in the chain of command
1056
01:03:07,282 --> 01:03:10,884
decided that he was probably
the 20th hijacker.
1057
01:03:10,885 --> 01:03:13,120
General hill wrote a memo.
1058
01:03:13,121 --> 01:03:16,457
"There are three categories
of interrogation techniques
1059
01:03:16,458 --> 01:03:19,326
that we would like you
to consider for approval."
1060
01:03:19,327 --> 01:03:21,863
How unusual were
these techniques?
1061
01:03:21,864 --> 01:03:23,330
Oh, they ran the gamut.
1062
01:03:23,331 --> 01:03:25,566
One of the techniques
recommended was waterboarding,
1063
01:03:25,567 --> 01:03:28,201
which I rejected.
1064
01:03:28,202 --> 01:03:31,538
Others would be,
"yelling at the detainee,
1065
01:03:31,539 --> 01:03:33,040
techniques of deception,
1066
01:03:33,041 --> 01:03:34,601
where you'd use
multiple interrogator--
1067
01:03:34,602 --> 01:03:36,012
interviewer may identify himself
1068
01:03:37,012 --> 01:03:38,312
as a citizen of a foreign--
1069
01:03:38,313 --> 01:03:40,113
with a reputation
for harsh treatment--
1070
01:03:40,114 --> 01:03:41,348
category II techniques--
1071
01:03:41,349 --> 01:03:42,917
stress positions, like standing,
1072
01:03:42,918 --> 01:03:44,218
for a maximum of four hours.
1073
01:03:44,219 --> 01:03:45,540
Falsified documents
or reports--
1074
01:03:46,021 --> 01:03:47,950
the use of isolation
facility for up to 30 days.
1075
01:03:47,951 --> 01:03:49,656
Deprivation of light
and auditory stimuli.
1076
01:03:49,657 --> 01:03:51,192
Hood placed over his head
1077
01:03:51,193 --> 01:03:52,893
during transportation
and questioning.
1078
01:03:52,894 --> 01:03:54,495
20 hour interrogations.
1079
01:03:54,496 --> 01:03:56,736
Removal of all comfort items,
including religious items.
1080
01:03:56,737 --> 01:03:59,433
Removal of clothing. Forced
grooming, shaving of facial hair.
1081
01:03:59,434 --> 01:04:02,069
Detainee individual phobias,
such fear of dogs,
1082
01:04:02,070 --> 01:04:03,404
to induce stress.
1083
01:04:03,405 --> 01:04:05,573
Category III techniques.
Use of non--
1084
01:04:05,574 --> 01:04:10,044
physical contact such as
grabbing and light pushing."
1085
01:04:10,045 --> 01:04:11,516
I think that's all.
1086
01:04:14,516 --> 01:04:18,956
Good grief,
that's a pile of stuff.
1087
01:04:20,956 --> 01:04:24,225
Jim Haynes, the general counsel,
1088
01:04:24,226 --> 01:04:26,459
sent it to me with a cover memo.
1089
01:04:26,460 --> 01:04:28,696
"I recommend that you approve
most of the things
1090
01:04:28,697 --> 01:04:31,332
in category I, if not all,
1091
01:04:31,333 --> 01:04:33,667
most of the things
in category II, if not all,
1092
01:04:33,668 --> 01:04:36,504
and one or two or three
of the things in category III.
1093
01:04:36,505 --> 01:04:38,605
But disapprove the others."
1094
01:04:38,606 --> 01:04:41,575
I remember one of the things
required that
1095
01:04:41,576 --> 01:04:44,611
he'd stand for three or four,
five, six hours.
1096
01:04:44,612 --> 01:04:47,448
When I approved it,
I wrote down that, you know,
1097
01:04:47,449 --> 01:04:49,549
I stand for eight or ten
hours a day.
1098
01:04:49,550 --> 01:04:51,390
I forget what I said,
but something like that.
1099
01:04:54,188 --> 01:04:56,357
Needless to say,
I did not intend
1100
01:04:56,358 --> 01:04:59,331
that my memo would then be sent
back down the chain of command.
1101
01:05:02,331 --> 01:05:06,634
In the case of Qahtani,
1102
01:05:06,635 --> 01:05:08,602
some of the things
that were done to him
1103
01:05:08,603 --> 01:05:10,175
were not approved.
1104
01:05:14,175 --> 01:05:16,710
And the interrogation plan
1105
01:05:16,711 --> 01:05:19,212
involving the duration
and the combination
1106
01:05:19,213 --> 01:05:23,456
of the techniques
was not proper.
1107
01:05:27,456 --> 01:05:29,656
Up came a concern expressed
to the general counsel.
1108
01:05:29,657 --> 01:05:32,017
"We hear some of these things
are being done to this fellow
1109
01:05:32,027 --> 01:05:34,495
that aren't approved
or aren't proper
1110
01:05:34,496 --> 01:05:35,997
in the interrogation plan."
1111
01:05:35,998 --> 01:05:37,230
And he came in and told me,
1112
01:05:37,231 --> 01:05:40,134
and I immediately
rescinded that memo.
1113
01:05:40,135 --> 01:05:42,403
Some weeks later, we reissued
1114
01:05:42,404 --> 01:05:45,171
the enhanced
interrogation techniques.
1115
01:05:45,172 --> 01:05:47,774
There was criticism
from some of the military people
1116
01:05:47,775 --> 01:05:50,745
in the chain
that by suspending them
1117
01:05:50,746 --> 01:05:52,279
for a period of weeks,
1118
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:55,222
we were putting at risk
the American people.
1119
01:06:00,222 --> 01:06:05,225
How do you know
when you're going too far?
1120
01:06:05,226 --> 01:06:08,328
You can't know with certainty.
1121
01:06:08,329 --> 01:06:11,503
All the easy decisions
are made down below.
1122
01:06:15,503 --> 01:06:17,337
When you say,
"how can you know?"
1123
01:06:17,338 --> 01:06:19,540
The answer is,
"you can't."
1124
01:06:19,541 --> 01:06:23,611
Wouldn't it be wonderful
if we could see around corners,
1125
01:06:23,612 --> 01:06:25,645
have our imaginations anticipate
1126
01:06:25,646 --> 01:06:28,049
every conceivable thing
that could happen and then,
1127
01:06:28,050 --> 01:06:30,317
from that full array
and spectrum,
1128
01:06:30,318 --> 01:06:33,795
pick out the ones
that will happen?
1129
01:06:56,677 --> 01:06:58,578
Is there any
evidence to indicate
1130
01:06:58,579 --> 01:07:03,250
that Iraq has attempted to
or is willing to supply
1131
01:07:03,251 --> 01:07:05,585
terrorists with weapons
of mass destruction?
1132
01:07:05,586 --> 01:07:08,622
As we know,
there are known knowns.
1133
01:07:08,623 --> 01:07:10,658
There are things
we know we know.
1134
01:07:10,659 --> 01:07:12,759
We also know
there are known unknowns.
1135
01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:14,727
That is to say,
we know there's some things
1136
01:07:14,728 --> 01:07:16,497
we do not know.
1137
01:07:16,498 --> 01:07:18,832
But there are also
unknown unknowns,
1138
01:07:18,833 --> 01:07:21,267
the ones we don't know
we don't know.
1139
01:07:21,268 --> 01:07:24,538
We just want to know,
are you aware of any evidence,
1140
01:07:24,539 --> 01:07:26,707
because that would increase
our level of belief
1141
01:07:26,708 --> 01:07:28,843
from faith to something
that would be...
1142
01:07:28,844 --> 01:07:31,780
- Yeah...
- Based on evidence.
1143
01:07:32,780 --> 01:07:36,149
"Subject: To discuss with P.,"
1144
01:07:36,150 --> 01:07:40,721
meaning the president
of the United States.
1145
01:07:40,722 --> 01:07:43,156
"The absence of evidence
1146
01:07:43,157 --> 01:07:45,132
is not evidence of absence."
1147
01:07:50,132 --> 01:07:54,134
When you say,
"the absence of evidence
1148
01:07:54,135 --> 01:07:57,571
is not evidence of absence,"
what you're saying
1149
01:07:57,572 --> 01:08:02,142
is that there is an absence
of evidence about something,
1150
01:08:02,143 --> 01:08:07,714
but you ought not to say
that therefore that is proof
1151
01:08:07,715 --> 01:08:09,783
that something doesn't exist.
1152
01:08:09,784 --> 01:08:13,687
It's an easy thing to go
from the first part of that
1153
01:08:13,688 --> 01:08:15,488
in the wrong direction and say,
1154
01:08:15,489 --> 01:08:21,228
"well, the absence of evidence
means it isn't there."
1155
01:08:21,229 --> 01:08:23,229
If an inspection team
goes in now
1156
01:08:23,230 --> 01:08:24,764
and finds nothing because
1157
01:08:24,765 --> 01:08:26,666
perhaps Iraq is very good
at hiding it
1158
01:08:26,667 --> 01:08:28,935
or perhaps they have nothing--
1159
01:08:28,936 --> 01:08:30,904
but you all are of the belief
that they have it--
1160
01:08:30,905 --> 01:08:33,840
if they find nothing, does it
make your job more difficult
1161
01:08:33,841 --> 01:08:37,178
in trying to assemble
an international coalition
1162
01:08:37,179 --> 01:08:40,216
to disarm him by other means?
1163
01:08:42,216 --> 01:08:44,218
Goodness gracious,
that is kind of like
1164
01:08:44,219 --> 01:08:47,453
looking down the road
for every conceivable pothole
1165
01:08:47,454 --> 01:08:49,956
you can find
and then driving into it.
1166
01:08:49,957 --> 01:08:52,526
I just don't--
I don't get up in the morning
1167
01:08:52,527 --> 01:08:54,661
and ask myself that.
1168
01:08:54,662 --> 01:08:56,496
The--
1169
01:08:56,497 --> 01:08:58,965
we know they have
weapons of mass destruction.
1170
01:08:58,966 --> 01:09:00,901
We know
they have active programs.
1171
01:09:00,902 --> 01:09:05,206
There isn't any debate about it.
1172
01:09:05,207 --> 01:09:09,542
It was thought to be
the best intelligence available.
1173
01:09:09,543 --> 01:09:10,778
How do you describe it
1174
01:09:10,779 --> 01:09:13,647
when it turns out
to be not accurate?
1175
01:09:13,648 --> 01:09:16,349
Do you describe that
as a failure of intelligence?
1176
01:09:16,350 --> 01:09:20,720
I suppose some can,
not unfairly, suggest that.
1177
01:09:20,721 --> 01:09:23,556
Saddam Hussein
may have been fearful
1178
01:09:23,557 --> 01:09:26,926
that he would be discovered
as having those weapons,
1179
01:09:26,927 --> 01:09:29,229
removed them or destroyed them,
1180
01:09:29,230 --> 01:09:32,966
but not wanted to tell anybody
that he'd done so.
1181
01:09:32,967 --> 01:09:36,237
He may have destroyed them,
1182
01:09:36,238 --> 01:09:38,339
unwilling to admit it,
1183
01:09:38,340 --> 01:09:42,809
fearful of being seen as weak.
1184
01:09:42,810 --> 01:09:46,746
Wouldn't it be strange
if he had destroyed his W.M.D.
1185
01:09:46,747 --> 01:09:48,952
And got invaded anyway?
1186
01:09:50,952 --> 01:09:52,992
Of course, I'm not suggesting
that that's the case.
1187
01:09:52,993 --> 01:09:56,256
I honestly do not know
what the case is.
1188
01:09:56,257 --> 01:09:59,893
All I know is that
the intelligence community
1189
01:09:59,894 --> 01:10:04,797
persuaded the president
and secretary Powell.
1190
01:10:04,798 --> 01:10:07,038
He spent days preparing himself
to make his presentation
1191
01:10:08,002 --> 01:10:09,670
to the united nations.
1192
01:10:09,671 --> 01:10:12,372
And he spent years
trying to explain
1193
01:10:12,373 --> 01:10:14,642
why he had done it.
1194
01:10:14,643 --> 01:10:16,443
It's a short sentence.
1195
01:10:16,444 --> 01:10:18,951
The reason he presented it
was 'cause he believed it.
1196
01:10:22,951 --> 01:10:25,653
"October 15, 2001.
1197
01:10:25,654 --> 01:10:28,322
Subject: Definition.
1198
01:10:28,323 --> 01:10:31,058
Please give me
a good definition for terrorism
1199
01:10:31,059 --> 01:10:34,694
and some elaboration as to
what it is and what it isn't."
1200
01:10:34,695 --> 01:10:37,398
"December 28, 2001.
1201
01:10:37,399 --> 01:10:41,801
Subject:
Adopting common terminology.
1202
01:10:41,802 --> 01:10:45,706
I suggest we use
the following terms.
1203
01:10:45,707 --> 01:10:47,474
'Afghan Taliban':
1204
01:10:47,475 --> 01:10:50,510
Afghan officials and fighters
of the former regime."
1205
01:10:50,511 --> 01:10:53,413
"October 31, 2002.
1206
01:10:53,414 --> 01:10:55,683
Subject:
Definition of victory.
1207
01:10:55,684 --> 01:10:57,850
Where is that definition
of victory?"
1208
01:10:57,851 --> 01:11:00,621
"January 6, 2003.
1209
01:11:00,622 --> 01:11:02,723
Subject: Terminology.
1210
01:11:02,724 --> 01:11:04,625
I want to make a list of things
1211
01:11:04,626 --> 01:11:05,959
I've done at the Pentagon,
1212
01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:09,929
like getting rid of words.
1213
01:11:09,930 --> 01:11:13,634
National missile defense,
requirements,
1214
01:11:13,635 --> 01:11:16,937
readiness--
ready for what?"
1215
01:11:16,938 --> 01:11:19,973
"October 1, 2003.
1216
01:11:19,974 --> 01:11:24,044
Subject: Please get me the
Oxford dictionary definition
1217
01:11:24,045 --> 01:11:26,412
of 'several'
and type it up for me.
1218
01:11:26,413 --> 01:11:27,648
Thanks."
1219
01:11:27,649 --> 01:11:29,983
"May 14, 2004.
1220
01:11:29,984 --> 01:11:31,585
Definition.
1221
01:11:31,586 --> 01:11:34,121
Please give me
the dictionary definition
1222
01:11:34,122 --> 01:11:37,457
of 'scapegoat.'
1223
01:11:37,458 --> 01:11:38,497
thanks."
1224
01:11:42,497 --> 01:11:47,134
And where did this term
"shock and awe" come from?
1225
01:11:47,135 --> 01:11:48,602
I don't know.
1226
01:11:48,603 --> 01:11:51,537
Apparently, general Franks
read it.
1227
01:11:51,538 --> 01:11:53,139
He used it.
1228
01:11:53,140 --> 01:11:57,478
It became
part of a press discussion.
1229
01:11:57,479 --> 01:12:00,647
But the idea of shock and awe?
1230
01:12:00,648 --> 01:12:04,019
I've told you all I know
about that phrase.
1231
01:13:09,984 --> 01:13:11,984
I picked up a newspaper today,
1232
01:13:11,985 --> 01:13:13,953
and I couldn't believe it.
1233
01:13:13,954 --> 01:13:18,058
I read eight headlines
that talked about chaos,
1234
01:13:18,059 --> 01:13:20,794
violence, unrest.
1235
01:13:20,795 --> 01:13:22,563
And it just was, "Henny Penny,
1236
01:13:22,564 --> 01:13:23,764
the sky is falling."
1237
01:13:23,765 --> 01:13:25,232
I've never seen
anything like it.
1238
01:13:25,233 --> 01:13:27,701
And here is a country
that's being liberated.
1239
01:13:27,702 --> 01:13:30,636
Here are people
who are going from being
1240
01:13:30,637 --> 01:13:32,104
repressed
and held under the thumb
1241
01:13:32,105 --> 01:13:34,474
of a vicious dictator,
and they're free,
1242
01:13:34,475 --> 01:13:36,676
and all this newspaper could do,
1243
01:13:36,677 --> 01:13:38,612
with 8 or 10 headlines--
1244
01:13:38,613 --> 01:13:39,912
they showed a man bleeding,
1245
01:13:39,913 --> 01:13:42,782
a civilian who they claimed
we had shot.
1246
01:13:42,783 --> 01:13:46,487
One thing after another,
it's just unbelievable
1247
01:13:46,488 --> 01:13:48,755
how people can take that away
1248
01:13:48,756 --> 01:13:51,657
from what is happening
in that country.
1249
01:13:51,658 --> 01:13:54,161
Stuff happens.
1250
01:13:54,162 --> 01:13:56,082
But in terms of what's going on
in that country,
1251
01:13:57,030 --> 01:14:00,501
it is a fundamental
misunderstanding
1252
01:14:00,502 --> 01:14:04,036
to see those images
over and over and over again
1253
01:14:04,037 --> 01:14:06,038
of some boy walking out
with a vase,
1254
01:14:06,039 --> 01:14:07,508
and saying, "oh, my goodness.
1255
01:14:07,509 --> 01:14:08,942
You didn't have a plan."
1256
01:14:08,943 --> 01:14:10,109
That's nonsense.
1257
01:14:10,110 --> 01:14:11,678
They know what they're doing,
1258
01:14:11,679 --> 01:14:13,112
and they're doing
a terrific job.
1259
01:14:13,113 --> 01:14:15,181
And it's untidy,
and freedom's untidy,
1260
01:14:15,182 --> 01:14:17,283
and free people
are free to make mistakes
1261
01:14:17,284 --> 01:14:20,086
and commit crimes
and do bad things.
1262
01:14:20,087 --> 01:14:22,656
They're also free
to live their lives
1263
01:14:22,657 --> 01:14:23,991
and do wonderful things.
1264
01:14:23,992 --> 01:14:25,692
And that's
what's gonna happen here.
1265
01:14:25,693 --> 01:14:27,701
Mr. secretary--
1266
01:14:33,701 --> 01:14:36,536
this was another violent
day in the streets of Baghdad.
1267
01:14:36,537 --> 01:14:38,671
One of Washington's
nightmares came true today.
1268
01:14:38,672 --> 01:14:41,241
The bush administration
is admitting it wasn't fully
1269
01:14:41,242 --> 01:14:44,211
prepared for the huge task
of governing post-war Iraq.
1270
01:14:44,212 --> 01:14:46,779
Now troops patrol these
streets knowing that to many,
1271
01:14:46,780 --> 01:14:48,814
they are not liberators,
but occupiers.
1272
01:14:48,815 --> 01:14:50,255
It's a situation
the Pentagon admits
1273
01:14:50,256 --> 01:14:51,751
it failed to anticipate.
1274
01:14:51,752 --> 01:14:53,319
The Pentagon is
scoffing at suggestions
1275
01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:56,625
that an organized guerrilla
resistance is forming.
1276
01:14:57,625 --> 01:15:01,694
"July 23, 2003."
1277
01:15:01,695 --> 01:15:03,964
To general John Abizaid.
1278
01:15:03,965 --> 01:15:07,233
"Subject: Definitions.
1279
01:15:07,234 --> 01:15:13,040
Attached are the definitions
of 'guerilla warfare,'
1280
01:15:13,041 --> 01:15:19,282
'insurgency,'
and 'unconventional warfare.'
1281
01:15:21,282 --> 01:15:24,585
they came from
the Pentagon dictionary.
1282
01:15:24,586 --> 01:15:26,224
Thanks."
1283
01:15:30,224 --> 01:15:32,326
It seemed to me
that there are ways
1284
01:15:32,327 --> 01:15:35,696
you can talk about
what the enemy's doing
1285
01:15:35,697 --> 01:15:38,665
that help the enemy
unintentionally
1286
01:15:38,666 --> 01:15:42,234
and ways you can talk about
what the enemy's doing
1287
01:15:42,235 --> 01:15:43,603
that harm the enemy,
1288
01:15:43,604 --> 01:15:46,739
that make his task
less legitimate,
1289
01:15:46,740 --> 01:15:47,907
more difficult.
1290
01:15:47,908 --> 01:15:49,710
What you're seeing is
1291
01:15:49,711 --> 01:15:53,613
Rumsfeld floundering around,
trying to figure out,
1292
01:15:53,614 --> 01:15:55,081
what do all those words mean?
1293
01:15:55,082 --> 01:15:57,117
What do other people think
they mean?
1294
01:15:57,118 --> 01:15:59,219
What are the best ones to use
1295
01:15:59,220 --> 01:16:02,188
that will benefit
the United States of America?
1296
01:16:02,189 --> 01:16:05,959
One of you suggested
I go to the dictionary.
1297
01:16:05,960 --> 01:16:07,760
I didn't ask this question.
1298
01:16:07,761 --> 01:16:09,696
Yes, but he would have.
1299
01:16:09,697 --> 01:16:12,032
I have since gone
to the dictionary,
1300
01:16:12,033 --> 01:16:14,901
and I have looked up
several things,
1301
01:16:14,902 --> 01:16:16,903
one of which I can't
immediately recapture,
1302
01:16:16,904 --> 01:16:18,904
but one was "guerrilla war."
1303
01:16:18,905 --> 01:16:20,072
Another was "insurgency."
1304
01:16:20,073 --> 01:16:22,675
Another was
"unconventional war."
1305
01:16:22,676 --> 01:16:23,876
Pardon me?
1306
01:16:23,877 --> 01:16:25,112
"Quagmire"?
1307
01:16:26,648 --> 01:16:29,782
No, that's someone
else's business.
1308
01:16:29,783 --> 01:16:31,917
Quagmire's the--
I don't do quagmires.
1309
01:16:31,918 --> 01:16:34,187
As I looked at the dictionary,
1310
01:16:34,188 --> 01:16:36,322
I'm not uncomfortable
with "unconventional,"
1311
01:16:36,323 --> 01:16:38,892
because it is not an army,
and it is not a Navy,
1312
01:16:38,893 --> 01:16:40,727
and it is not an air force.
1313
01:16:40,728 --> 01:16:42,696
But even there,
the dictionary--
1314
01:16:42,697 --> 01:16:43,996
the Pentagon dictionary--
1315
01:16:43,997 --> 01:16:46,001
I haven't looked
in a regular dictionary.
1316
01:16:47,001 --> 01:16:51,304
The Pentagon dictionary does not
even land that one perfectly
1317
01:16:51,305 --> 01:16:52,344
on what's taking place.
1318
01:16:56,344 --> 01:16:57,905
The bush administration has been
1319
01:16:58,011 --> 01:16:59,979
on a stepped-up P.R. Campaign
1320
01:16:59,980 --> 01:17:01,848
to stop the erosion
of support at home
1321
01:17:01,849 --> 01:17:03,684
for the dangerous mission
in Iraq.
1322
01:17:03,685 --> 01:17:05,685
Today, an unprecedented
series of bombings
1323
01:17:05,686 --> 01:17:07,386
left a trail
of death and devastation.
1324
01:17:07,387 --> 01:17:09,790
The concern
that Iraq's reconstruction is,
1325
01:17:09,791 --> 01:17:12,392
in fact, falling well short
of expectations.
1326
01:17:12,393 --> 01:17:14,428
Today in Fallujah,
Iraqi guerrillas
1327
01:17:14,429 --> 01:17:17,264
used a roadside bomb to bring
an American patrol to--
1328
01:17:17,265 --> 01:17:20,399
Briggs accused the Rumsfeld
team of being under-prepared
1329
01:17:20,400 --> 01:17:23,403
for post-war conditions
on the ground and unwilling
1330
01:17:23,404 --> 01:17:25,938
to share decision-making
with other government agencies.
1331
01:17:25,939 --> 01:17:28,041
Acknowledgement
that long-simmering tensions
1332
01:17:28,042 --> 01:17:30,911
over Iraq and its aftermath,
particularly between
1333
01:17:30,912 --> 01:17:32,778
the departments of state
and defense,
1334
01:17:32,779 --> 01:17:34,980
have now reached full boil.
1335
01:17:46,327 --> 01:17:49,429
October of 2003.
1336
01:17:49,430 --> 01:17:52,364
I became worried
that we were having trouble
1337
01:17:52,365 --> 01:17:55,469
measuring progress,
1338
01:17:55,470 --> 01:17:58,775
and I wrote a memo called
"global war on terror."
1339
01:18:01,775 --> 01:18:06,846
"Are we winning or losing
the global war on terror?
1340
01:18:06,847 --> 01:18:10,050
Is D.O.D. Changing
fast enough to deal
1341
01:18:10,051 --> 01:18:14,490
with the new 21st-century
security environment?
1342
01:18:16,490 --> 01:18:20,993
Are the changes we have
and are making too modest
1343
01:18:20,994 --> 01:18:23,199
and incremental?
1344
01:18:26,199 --> 01:18:28,769
My impression is that
we have not yet
1345
01:18:28,770 --> 01:18:31,304
made truly bold moves,
1346
01:18:31,305 --> 01:18:35,407
although we have made many
sensible, logical moves
1347
01:18:35,408 --> 01:18:37,144
in the right direction."
1348
01:18:37,145 --> 01:18:39,014
"But are they enough," I asked.
1349
01:18:40,014 --> 01:18:41,947
"Today we lack metrics to know
1350
01:18:41,948 --> 01:18:45,818
if we are winning or losing
the global war on terror.
1351
01:18:45,819 --> 01:18:50,090
Are we killing or deterring
more terrorists every day
1352
01:18:50,091 --> 01:18:52,893
than the madrassas
and the radical clerics
1353
01:18:52,894 --> 01:18:56,529
are recruiting and deploying
against us?
1354
01:18:56,530 --> 01:18:59,566
It's pretty clear
that the coalition can win
1355
01:18:59,567 --> 01:19:03,469
in Afghanistan and Iraq
1356
01:19:03,470 --> 01:19:06,406
in one way or another,
1357
01:19:06,407 --> 01:19:10,376
but it will be
a long, hard slog."
1358
01:19:25,493 --> 01:19:28,394
It was Christmastime.
1359
01:19:28,395 --> 01:19:34,300
I can recall going up
to the secure phone closet.
1360
01:19:34,301 --> 01:19:36,269
It's in the second floor
of our house,
1361
01:19:36,270 --> 01:19:39,272
not too far from my bedroom.
1362
01:19:39,273 --> 01:19:42,209
What was in there
was a noise system
1363
01:19:42,210 --> 01:19:45,448
that sounded like an ocean wave.
1364
01:19:47,448 --> 01:19:50,951
They had scooped up some people,
1365
01:19:50,952 --> 01:19:53,553
low-level people,
1366
01:19:53,554 --> 01:19:57,890
who might have some reason
to know where he might be.
1367
01:19:57,891 --> 01:20:00,260
He'd been moving
around the country every day,
1368
01:20:00,261 --> 01:20:02,062
sleeping a different place,
1369
01:20:02,063 --> 01:20:05,197
moving around in taxicabs.
1370
01:20:05,198 --> 01:20:08,969
Also moving around
were some body doubles,
1371
01:20:08,970 --> 01:20:12,339
people who looked
exactly like Saddam Hussein,
1372
01:20:12,340 --> 01:20:16,175
indeed, had the same
distinguishing marks
1373
01:20:16,176 --> 01:20:17,544
on their bodies.
1374
01:20:17,545 --> 01:20:21,046
Some low-level individual
said that he believed
1375
01:20:21,047 --> 01:20:23,282
he knew where
Saddam Hussein was.
1376
01:20:23,283 --> 01:20:27,056
They inspected this farm
out in the middle of nowhere.
1377
01:20:30,056 --> 01:20:34,193
There was a trapdoor.
1378
01:20:34,194 --> 01:20:36,563
They opened this up.
1379
01:20:36,564 --> 01:20:41,067
Lo and behold, here was
this bedraggled, bearded man
1380
01:20:41,068 --> 01:20:42,206
down in that hole.
1381
01:20:45,206 --> 01:20:50,542
Saddam Hussein clearly
concluded it was all a bluff.
1382
01:20:50,543 --> 01:20:54,214
The United States
was a paper tiger.
1383
01:20:54,215 --> 01:20:56,319
They weren't gonna do anything.
1384
01:20:59,319 --> 01:21:01,287
The first Gulf war
left him feeling
1385
01:21:01,288 --> 01:21:03,223
that no one
was gonna bother him.
1386
01:21:03,224 --> 01:21:05,925
He was the person who prevailed.
1387
01:21:05,926 --> 01:21:09,161
He obviously felt
that he was a survivor.
1388
01:21:09,162 --> 01:21:12,532
And he was, for a while.
1389
01:21:12,533 --> 01:21:16,969
Someone said, "do you want
to go see Saddam Hussein,"
1390
01:21:16,970 --> 01:21:18,103
after he was captured.
1391
01:21:18,104 --> 01:21:19,939
And I said,
"no."
1392
01:21:19,940 --> 01:21:23,547
I said, "I would like
to talk to Tariq Aziz."
1393
01:21:27,547 --> 01:21:31,617
It's a complicated situation
for me.
1394
01:21:31,618 --> 01:21:33,319
As the number two man,
1395
01:21:33,320 --> 01:21:35,287
simultaneously
deputy prime minister
1396
01:21:35,288 --> 01:21:37,456
and foreign minister
for Saddam Hussein,
1397
01:21:37,457 --> 01:21:39,326
and you meet with him,
you come away
1398
01:21:39,327 --> 01:21:43,095
with that he is a perfectly
rational, logical individual.
1399
01:21:43,096 --> 01:21:45,197
I've spent hours and hours
with him.
1400
01:21:45,198 --> 01:21:48,268
You wonder what goes on
in a mind like that.
1401
01:21:48,269 --> 01:21:51,136
I would love to talk
to Tariq Aziz and figure out
1402
01:21:51,137 --> 01:21:52,706
what in the world
they were thinking.
1403
01:21:52,707 --> 01:21:55,274
What else might
the United States have done
1404
01:21:55,275 --> 01:21:56,643
to reach out to them
1405
01:21:56,644 --> 01:21:59,511
and get them
to behave rationally.
1406
01:22:12,592 --> 01:22:15,394
On February 6, 2003,
1407
01:22:15,395 --> 01:22:17,997
to Jim Haynes.
1408
01:22:17,998 --> 01:22:19,698
"Subject: Detainees.
1409
01:22:19,699 --> 01:22:22,434
I am concerned
that the detainee issues
1410
01:22:22,435 --> 01:22:25,006
we were wrestling with
have not been resolved.
1411
01:22:26,006 --> 01:22:27,674
And as far as I can see...
1412
01:22:27,675 --> 01:22:31,644
...it has just
dropped into a black pit.
1413
01:22:31,645 --> 01:22:33,412
We have to get it figured out.
Thanks."
1414
01:22:33,413 --> 01:22:35,215
"January 10, 2003.
1415
01:22:35,216 --> 01:22:36,066
Subject: Detainees.
1416
01:22:37,018 --> 01:22:38,385
I have simply got to know
1417
01:22:38,386 --> 01:22:40,252
when you folks
are going to be prepared
1418
01:22:40,253 --> 01:22:42,654
to brief the White House
on detainees.
1419
01:22:42,655 --> 01:22:45,692
In fact, I don't think
I'll even do it that way.
1420
01:22:45,693 --> 01:22:49,161
Instead, let me just say,
you should be prepared
1421
01:22:49,162 --> 01:22:50,362
to brief the White House..."
1422
01:22:50,363 --> 01:22:51,764
"Subject: The N.S.C."
1423
01:22:51,765 --> 01:22:54,033
"Or the principals committee
on detainees,
1424
01:22:54,034 --> 01:22:57,269
including the most recent
issue that has been raised,
1425
01:22:57,270 --> 01:22:59,371
no later than next Tuesday."
1426
01:22:59,372 --> 01:23:01,107
"January 14.
1427
01:23:01,108 --> 01:23:04,077
I want to get briefed
on the Iraqi detainees fast.
1428
01:23:04,078 --> 01:23:05,444
I'm really worried about it.
1429
01:23:05,445 --> 01:23:08,662
Thanks."
1430
01:23:21,662 --> 01:23:23,630
When the pictures came,
1431
01:23:23,631 --> 01:23:26,666
it had an impact
that was well beyond
1432
01:23:26,667 --> 01:23:29,269
anything that I'd experienced.
1433
01:23:29,270 --> 01:23:31,170
Why do you think
the pictures did it?
1434
01:23:31,171 --> 01:23:35,075
What it showed was people
engaging in acts of abuse
1435
01:23:35,076 --> 01:23:39,182
that were disgusting
and revolting.
1436
01:23:42,182 --> 01:23:46,086
There were pictures
showing that prison guards
1437
01:23:46,087 --> 01:23:47,821
in the midnight shift
1438
01:23:47,822 --> 01:23:50,756
were doing things to prisoners
that didn't kill them,
1439
01:23:50,757 --> 01:23:54,794
that didn't create injuries
that were permanent,
1440
01:23:54,795 --> 01:23:57,296
but they were engaging
in sadistic things,
1441
01:23:57,297 --> 01:24:00,466
and there was nudity involved.
1442
01:24:00,467 --> 01:24:05,438
I knew that it would create
a advantage for the terrorists,
1443
01:24:05,439 --> 01:24:08,140
for Al-Qaeda and for the people
in the insurgency,
1444
01:24:08,141 --> 01:24:09,309
who were out recruiting.
1445
01:24:09,310 --> 01:24:10,777
They could show
that the Americans
1446
01:24:10,778 --> 01:24:12,578
were treating people badly.
1447
01:24:12,579 --> 01:24:14,880
It worked against everything
we were trying to do.
1448
01:24:14,881 --> 01:24:17,416
I walked in
and said to the president,
1449
01:24:17,417 --> 01:24:19,685
"I'm the senior person,
and I believe in accountability.
1450
01:24:19,686 --> 01:24:22,193
Here's my resignation."
1451
01:24:26,193 --> 01:24:27,594
It was in my handwriting.
1452
01:24:27,595 --> 01:24:28,894
I didn't want to dictate it
1453
01:24:28,895 --> 01:24:31,574
or have it typed up by somebody.
1454
01:24:41,574 --> 01:24:43,408
I felt a very strong sense
1455
01:24:43,409 --> 01:24:49,162
that something terrible
had happened on my watch.
1456
01:25:02,162 --> 01:25:05,564
He said, "don, I recognize
how you feel about this,
1457
01:25:05,565 --> 01:25:09,269
but that's not gonna
solve the problem."
1458
01:25:09,270 --> 01:25:13,639
I testified before the house,
testified before the senate,
1459
01:25:13,640 --> 01:25:18,711
tried to figure out
how everything happened.
1460
01:25:18,712 --> 01:25:20,380
When a ship runs aground,
1461
01:25:20,381 --> 01:25:22,648
the captain of the ship's
generally relieved.
1462
01:25:22,649 --> 01:25:24,450
You don't relieve
your presidents,
1463
01:25:24,451 --> 01:25:26,618
and I couldn't find anyone
that I thought
1464
01:25:26,619 --> 01:25:30,956
it would be fair and responsible
to pin the tail on.
1465
01:25:30,957 --> 01:25:34,294
So I sat down and wrote
a second letter of resignation,
1466
01:25:34,295 --> 01:25:36,595
and I still believe to this day
1467
01:25:36,596 --> 01:25:39,732
that I was correct
and it would have been better,
1468
01:25:39,733 --> 01:25:42,335
better for the administration
and the department of defense
1469
01:25:42,336 --> 01:25:43,803
and better for me,
1470
01:25:43,804 --> 01:25:45,505
if the department
could have started fresh
1471
01:25:45,506 --> 01:25:48,675
with someone else
in the leadership position.
1472
01:25:48,676 --> 01:25:50,376
So you wish
it had been accepted?
1473
01:25:50,377 --> 01:25:52,733
Yes.
1474
01:26:12,733 --> 01:26:16,536
There's a claim
that the interrogation rules
1475
01:26:16,537 --> 01:26:18,737
used in Guantanamo
1476
01:26:18,738 --> 01:26:21,009
migrated to Iraq,
1477
01:26:22,009 --> 01:26:27,980
where they led
to incredible abuse.
1478
01:26:27,981 --> 01:26:29,881
The evidence is to the contrary.
1479
01:26:29,882 --> 01:26:31,451
There were 12 investigations
1480
01:26:31,452 --> 01:26:34,420
that looked at these issues,
1481
01:26:34,421 --> 01:26:35,854
some by civilians,
1482
01:26:35,855 --> 01:26:37,956
distinguished people like
Dr. Harold brown
1483
01:26:37,957 --> 01:26:40,827
and Dr. James Schlesinger,
former secretaries of defense,
1484
01:26:40,828 --> 01:26:42,694
others by military officials.
1485
01:26:42,695 --> 01:26:48,268
To suggest that
the procedures from Guantanamo
1486
01:26:48,269 --> 01:26:51,837
migrated over to Iraq
1487
01:26:51,838 --> 01:26:56,908
is to suggest that
the procedures in Guantanamo
1488
01:26:56,909 --> 01:26:58,711
would have encouraged the kind
1489
01:26:58,712 --> 01:27:03,515
of unbelievably bad, illegal,
improper behavior
1490
01:27:03,516 --> 01:27:04,951
that took place at Abu Ghraib,
1491
01:27:04,952 --> 01:27:06,919
and there's nothing
that would have permitted
1492
01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:08,420
anything like that.
1493
01:27:08,421 --> 01:27:10,622
Anyone who reads
the investigative reports
1494
01:27:10,623 --> 01:27:13,430
knows that's not the case.
1495
01:27:16,430 --> 01:27:20,332
This is from
the Schlesinger report.
1496
01:27:20,333 --> 01:27:23,836
"Changes in D.O.D.
Interrogation policies
1497
01:27:23,837 --> 01:27:28,407
between December 2, 2002,
and April 16, 2003,
1498
01:27:28,408 --> 01:27:32,511
were an element contributing
to uncertainties in the field
1499
01:27:32,512 --> 01:27:36,316
as to which techniques
were authorized.
1500
01:27:36,317 --> 01:27:39,419
Although specifically limited
by the secretary of defense
1501
01:27:39,420 --> 01:27:43,322
to Guantanamo, and requiring
his personal approval,
1502
01:27:43,323 --> 01:27:45,625
given in only two cases,
1503
01:27:45,626 --> 01:27:47,186
the augmented techniques
for Guantanamo
1504
01:27:48,028 --> 01:27:50,095
migrated to Afghanistan and Iraq
1505
01:27:50,096 --> 01:27:54,867
where they were neither limited
nor safeguarded."
1506
01:27:54,868 --> 01:27:56,368
Mm-hmm.
1507
01:27:56,369 --> 01:27:59,971
Yeah, I think
that's a fair assessment.
1508
01:27:59,972 --> 01:28:01,680
Mm-hmm.
1509
01:28:06,680 --> 01:28:09,052
Are you saying
stuff just happens?
1510
01:28:13,052 --> 01:28:17,055
Well, we know that
1511
01:28:17,056 --> 01:28:21,493
in every war
there are things that evolve
1512
01:28:21,494 --> 01:28:25,497
that hadn't been planned for
or fully anticipated
1513
01:28:25,498 --> 01:28:29,535
and that things occur
which shouldn't occur.
1514
01:28:59,899 --> 01:29:05,404
Wouldn't it have been
better not to go there at all?
1515
01:29:05,405 --> 01:29:07,650
Well, I guess time will tell.
1516
01:29:17,650 --> 01:29:21,920
Barack Obama opposed
most of the structures
1517
01:29:21,921 --> 01:29:25,892
that president George W. Bush
put in place:
1518
01:29:25,893 --> 01:29:30,429
Guantanamo bay, the concept
of indefinite detention,
1519
01:29:30,430 --> 01:29:33,769
the patriot act,
military commissions.
1520
01:29:35,769 --> 01:29:39,538
Here we are, years later,
1521
01:29:39,539 --> 01:29:41,711
and they're all still there.
1522
01:29:44,711 --> 01:29:48,648
I think that kind of has to
validate, to some extent,
1523
01:29:48,649 --> 01:29:52,561
the decisions that were made
by president George W. Bush.
1524
01:30:01,561 --> 01:30:05,163
We went to Bethesda
and Walter Reed
1525
01:30:05,164 --> 01:30:08,067
a great many times.
1526
01:30:08,068 --> 01:30:11,970
The strength that you felt
from the families
1527
01:30:11,971 --> 01:30:13,572
and the people wounded
1528
01:30:13,573 --> 01:30:18,544
was just absolutely
an inspiration.
1529
01:30:18,545 --> 01:30:20,212
It was an intensive care unit.
1530
01:30:20,213 --> 01:30:22,886
The doctor said,
"this guy's not gonna make it."
1531
01:30:25,886 --> 01:30:29,221
We walked in, met the man,
talked to him,
1532
01:30:29,222 --> 01:30:31,029
talked to the family.
1533
01:30:37,029 --> 01:30:40,733
I don't know what the word is.
1534
01:30:40,734 --> 01:30:44,036
But the family--
the wife said,
1535
01:30:44,037 --> 01:30:46,813
"I know he'll make it."
1536
01:30:52,813 --> 01:30:56,215
I think it was probably
two, three, four weeks later
1537
01:30:56,216 --> 01:30:57,916
I went back, and sure as heck,
1538
01:30:57,917 --> 01:30:59,618
the doctor said he made it.
1539
01:30:59,619 --> 01:31:01,693
Unbelievable.
1540
01:31:06,693 --> 01:31:08,260
So we're
a very fortunate country,
1541
01:31:08,261 --> 01:31:10,196
and the good lord willing,
1542
01:31:10,197 --> 01:31:14,533
we won't have
to be engaged in wars,
1543
01:31:14,534 --> 01:31:16,935
but I'm afraid,
human nature being what it is,
1544
01:31:16,936 --> 01:31:20,007
that we'll have to continue
to ask young men and women
1545
01:31:21,007 --> 01:31:23,709
to come and serve our country,
1546
01:31:23,710 --> 01:31:26,178
and their lives will be at risk.
1547
01:31:48,234 --> 01:31:52,203
When you're in a position
like secretary of defense,
1548
01:31:52,204 --> 01:31:55,675
do you feel that you actually
are in control of history
1549
01:31:55,676 --> 01:31:59,682
or that history
is controlling you?
1550
01:32:02,682 --> 01:32:05,283
Oh, neither.
1551
01:32:05,284 --> 01:32:07,819
Obviously,
you don't control history,
1552
01:32:07,820 --> 01:32:12,292
and you are failing
if history controls you.
1553
01:32:27,673 --> 01:32:29,375
Are you surprised
when you go back
1554
01:32:29,376 --> 01:32:31,376
and read these memos?
1555
01:32:31,377 --> 01:32:33,112
Oh, my goodness, yes.
1556
01:32:33,113 --> 01:32:37,883
I can't believe
some of the things I wrote.
1557
01:32:37,884 --> 01:32:40,694
I don't know where
all those words came from.
1558
01:32:47,694 --> 01:32:51,363
"February 4, 2004.
1559
01:32:51,364 --> 01:32:56,736
Subject: What you know.
1560
01:32:56,737 --> 01:32:59,170
There are knowns knowns.
1561
01:32:59,171 --> 01:33:02,340
There are known unknowns.
1562
01:33:02,341 --> 01:33:06,245
There are unknown unknowns.
1563
01:33:06,246 --> 01:33:11,250
But there are also
unknown knowns.
1564
01:33:11,251 --> 01:33:15,420
That is to say,
things that you think you know
1565
01:33:15,421 --> 01:33:18,694
that it turns out
you did not."
1566
01:33:20,694 --> 01:33:22,394
If you take those words
1567
01:33:22,395 --> 01:33:26,869
and try to connect them
in each way that is possible...
1568
01:33:29,869 --> 01:33:32,337
There was at least
one more combination
1569
01:33:32,338 --> 01:33:33,839
that wasn't there:
1570
01:33:33,840 --> 01:33:38,144
The unknown knowns.
1571
01:33:38,145 --> 01:33:41,746
Things that
you possibly may know
1572
01:33:41,747 --> 01:33:44,050
that you don't know you know.
1573
01:33:44,051 --> 01:33:46,419
But the memo doesn't say that.
1574
01:33:46,420 --> 01:33:51,857
It says we know less,
not more, than we think we do.
1575
01:33:51,858 --> 01:33:53,291
Is that right?
I reversed it?
1576
01:33:53,292 --> 01:33:55,198
Put it up again.
Let me see.
1577
01:33:58,198 --> 01:34:02,300
"There are also unknown knowns.
1578
01:34:02,301 --> 01:34:06,906
That is to say,
things that you think you know
1579
01:34:06,907 --> 01:34:09,308
that it turns out you did not."
1580
01:34:09,309 --> 01:34:12,044
Yeah, I think that memo
is backwards.
1581
01:34:12,045 --> 01:34:18,320
I think that it's closer
to what I said here than that.
1582
01:34:21,320 --> 01:34:23,060
Unknown knowns.
1583
01:34:28,060 --> 01:34:31,730
I think you're probably, Errol,
chasing the wrong rabbit here.
1584
01:34:56,922 --> 01:34:59,358
As ubiquitous
as those suicide bombers
1585
01:34:59,359 --> 01:35:03,194
have become in Iraq, far more
people are now being killed
1586
01:35:03,195 --> 01:35:05,363
by executions
than by those bombings.
1587
01:35:05,364 --> 01:35:07,366
Another 40 bodies today dumped
1588
01:35:07,367 --> 01:35:09,167
on the streets of Baghdad,
tortured.
1589
01:35:09,168 --> 01:35:11,370
But with
an especially deadly October
1590
01:35:11,371 --> 01:35:13,104
and Iraq tipping toward chaos--
1591
01:35:13,105 --> 01:35:16,341
the U.S. is on
the brink of failure in Iraq.
1592
01:35:16,342 --> 01:35:19,778
A parade of generals called
Rumsfeld’s war strategy flawed.
1593
01:35:19,779 --> 01:35:22,413
The democrats are in;
Donald Rumsfeld is out.
1594
01:35:22,414 --> 01:35:25,151
Firing secretary of
defense Donald Rumsfeld
1595
01:35:25,152 --> 01:35:28,323
and replacing him with a veteran
of his father's administration.
1596
01:35:31,323 --> 01:35:34,225
Mr. President,
thank you for your kind words.
1597
01:35:34,226 --> 01:35:38,863
The great respect that I have
for your leadership
1598
01:35:38,864 --> 01:35:44,370
in this little-understood,
unfamiliar war,
1599
01:35:44,371 --> 01:35:49,041
the first war
of the 21st century.
1600
01:35:49,042 --> 01:35:50,576
It is not well known.
1601
01:35:50,577 --> 01:35:52,310
It was not well understood.
1602
01:35:52,311 --> 01:35:55,547
It is complex for people
to comprehend.
1603
01:35:55,548 --> 01:35:58,517
And I know with certainty
that, over time,
1604
01:35:58,518 --> 01:36:04,261
the contributions you've made
will be recorded by history.
1605
01:36:08,261 --> 01:36:10,496
Thank you.
1606
01:36:10,497 --> 01:36:11,501
Mr. secretary.
1607
01:36:14,501 --> 01:36:16,035
This way.
1608
01:36:27,079 --> 01:36:30,349
"December 15, 2006.
1609
01:36:30,350 --> 01:36:32,084
To: Pentagon personnel.
1610
01:36:32,085 --> 01:36:34,385
From: Donald Rumsfeld.
1611
01:36:34,386 --> 01:36:37,956
Subject: 'Snowflakes--
1612
01:36:37,957 --> 01:36:41,864
the blizzard is over.'
1613
01:36:44,864 --> 01:36:46,197
over the past six years,
1614
01:36:46,198 --> 01:36:51,103
thousands of these memos
have fallen,
1615
01:36:51,104 --> 01:36:52,604
sometimes in blizzards,
1616
01:36:52,605 --> 01:36:56,110
and sometimes in cold
and lonely isolation.
1617
01:36:58,110 --> 01:37:00,612
Yet, as surprising
as this may seem
1618
01:37:00,613 --> 01:37:05,517
to those who may have been
buried in the deluge,
1619
01:37:05,518 --> 01:37:07,119
there are many people
in the department
1620
01:37:08,020 --> 01:37:11,189
who have never received
a snowflake.
1621
01:37:11,190 --> 01:37:15,493
This snowflake
is especially for them.
1622
01:37:15,494 --> 01:37:19,197
Its message is, perhaps
typically, to the point.
1623
01:37:19,198 --> 01:37:22,568
Thank you.
1624
01:37:22,569 --> 01:37:25,237
The blizzard is over."
1625
01:37:45,692 --> 01:37:47,695
One last question.
1626
01:37:49,695 --> 01:37:52,096
Why are you doing this?
1627
01:37:52,097 --> 01:37:55,634
Why are you talking to me?
1628
01:37:55,635 --> 01:37:58,239
That is a vicious question.
1629
01:38:00,239 --> 01:38:02,000
I'll be darned if I know.
129330
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