All language subtitles for The Thick Of It s04e06xxx

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Tickel's dead!

I need to have the e-mail.
I'll do it.

Are you for the chop, Mrs Murray?

Ha-ha! Very funny!

Quiet Batpeople
on every fucking paper!

What are you doing at my computer?!

I'm bringing down Mannion
by leaking an e-mail.

Mr Tickel's medical records
were illegally acquired.

I have decided
to stand down as leader.

The Guardian have received
an e-mail from Fergus

with all of our comments
about Mr Tickel underneath.

You were supposed to redact it,
send the top e-mail,

not the whole fucking exchange!

If a government can't leak,
do you know what happens?

Dark shit builds up.

What the fuck is going on?
There's going to be an inquiry.

And then it bursts!

This is an inquiry into the death
of Mr Douglas Tickel,

and the practice and culture
of the dissemination of confidential information

between political parties
and the public media.

Mr Weir.

Thank you, Lord Goolding.

Our first witness today is,
er, is Mr Stewart Pearson.

No, it's... It's fine.

Er, yeah, um, I, Stewart Pearson,
do sincerely declare and affirm

that the evidence I shall give
will be the truth, the whole truth,

and, and nothing but,
er, the truth.

On page 235
of your witness statement,

you describe yourself as the,
the human router in government.

Can you, er, can you explain
what you meant by that?

Um, I'm a-a router

in the sense that I control
the governmental, informational

ingestion and egestion process.

Mr Pearson just to clarify...

your job is to make sure
that the public perception

of your government's programme
is a positive one. Is that fair?

It's not about perception. Yeah?

I believe in government
as a transceiver, hm?

Transceiver.

Yeah, it's really important, sure,
to give out a strong signal,

but to be effective,
you've got to listen for an echo.

Could you possibly
speak in plain English?

I'm sorry, I-I thought I was.

So what IS clear is that
you are an important man, Mr Pearson.

I'm just a lad from Leeds
with a lust for life, yeah?

There's an African proverb
that's stuck with me, yeah?

"If you think you're too small
to make a difference,

"you've never spent a night
with a mosquito."

So... part of your job...

is to make sure that the government's
message gets across clearly?

Is that right?

That's correct.

And despite the sarcasm marinating
that question, I'm very successful in that endeavour.

No, there was no sarcasm
intended at all, Mr Pearson.

Sorry, I must have
misread your... face.

Does your job
intrude on your home life?

No.

No, when I close the front door,
I...

I'm no longer Stewart Pearson.

When you, when you...

I mean, when I... when I close
it from the... from the inside.

You know, when I close it
from the outside then I...

then I very much AM Stewart Pearson.

So who are you at home?

Er, I'm a husband,

I'm a... pardon me, a lover,

I'm a carpenter, I'm a cook,
I'm a flautist.

A-a...? A flautist.

Right. I play the flute.

And I dabble on the Irish bodhran.

Erm, and would you like to express
any remorse for Mr Tickel's death?

What would you like to say
to his family?

Er, I would like to offer them
maximum respect, you know?

And maximum remorse.

And maximum assurance that Mr Tickel
did not die in vain.

We're here. You know?

How can we make the government
and the media inclusive without being intrusive? Yeah...

And if we can answer that,

at least we can make sure
there are no more Mr Tickels.

I mean that... I mean that
not in the sense of, you know,

wiping out the Tickel family name.

I mean it in the sense that nothing
like this will ever happen again.

Hello, Mr Pearson. Hi.

Tab 28 in your bundle there,
page 263...

a paper that you presented in
2006, The Iconography of Consensus.

Would you care to summarise
the argument you present there?

Sure, yeah, the main thrust...
Bearing in mind Lord Goolding's desire for plainness and clarity.

Right. OK.

Er, I hypothesise that...

Sorry.

I say...

that the design structure
for a parliamentary democracy

should be that
of the Pompidou Centre.

Morally and structurally
explicit and open,

a porous membrane.

Maybe just a little bit plainer,
Mr Pearson.

People...

should know, er...

what politicians are doing.

Brilliant.

Thanks.

Government should be porous?

Yes. But not leaking?

Come on. If someone is determined
to leak information,

there's nothing that anyone
can do about that.

So as Director of Communications,

you are unable to prevent
sensitive material

being communicated to journalists?

If someone chokes on a packet
of crisps, do you issue an arrest warrant for Gary Lineker?

Is it fair to say that you
have in fact changed nothing,

and government communications
carries on exactly as they did before, by leaks and whispers?

No, it is not fair to say that.

In fact, as you disapprove
and condemn these practices,

are they not more covert
and more hidden and more secret than ever before?

I think that is also
an unreasonable assertion.

In spite of your desire to create
a political Pompidou Centre,

haven't you created
the opposite, Centrepoint?

Everybody sees it looming over them,
but nobody has any idea what happens inside.

I think there's some kind of club
on the top floor.

So, Mr Pearson, have you identified
the source of the leak...

No... of Mr Tickel's records?

No. Have you ever leaked yourself?

No.

No, I was, I was over that
pre-Britpop.

Do you have any idea where the leak
might have come from?

Well, you know,
if this was CSI Miami,

I guess we'd be looking for the
person who had the most to gain from the leak being made public.

Well, er, despite your shirt,
this ISN'T CSI Miami.

Who do you think would benefit
most from the leak?

Well, I guess I'd be sending
David Caruso knocking on the door of Mr Malcolm Tucker.

Can I ask you,
how would you describe yourself?

Er, I'm a media strategist.

So you would be Stewart Pearson's
opposite number?

Er, well, I'd be
Stewart Pearson's opposite

in every possible way, I think.

You have a lot of control and power
over your party, don't you?

Ah-ha!

I wish, yes! Um, no.

I think that that's been overstated.

So this reputation you have
as an enforcer,

that's completely
misrepresenting you, is it?

It's baloney. Politicians who have to
do things that they don't want to do,

such as resign...

er, because they've been caught
with their fingers in the till, or, you know,

with their knickers up a flagpole
or whatever, they...

sometimes it's very convenient
for them to have a bogeyman.

"Malcolm made me do it."
Well, I didn't make them do it.

These are people who just find
themselves stuck in a room with one exit,

and I simply show them the door.

I've highlighted some quotes.

The Guardian.

"Malcolm Tucker
has the physical demeanour and the political instincts

"of a velociraptor."

Yes, The Guardian,
the newspaper that hates newspapers.

Telegraph... The Telegr-arse.

"Tucker's writ runs through
the lifeblood of Westminster

"like raw alcohol,
at once cleansing and corroding."

The Times.

"If you make eye contact
with Malcolm Tucker,

"you have spilled his pint."

The Spectator.
"Iago with a BlackBerry."

I mean, you're saying these
quotes are, what, misguided?

The Spectator...! Um...

No, I'm saying you're taking these
out of context, you're not contextualising these.

If you were to put them
into a perspective, if you were to place them into the landscape,

you would see that there might be
a lot of axes being ground here.

I don't see the difference between
what you have just done and a leak, by the way.

The difference is that
what I've just read out was not obtained illegally.

How do you know that?

You don't know what confidences
have been breached

in order to form these opinions,
for that is what they are.

So, you accept leaking
as part and parcel of the political media machinery?

Yes, I mean if you didn't
have leaking,

the newspapers would just be
full of long-lense bikini shots,

and adverts for sheds,
and offers to buy three pairs of trousers for a tenner, etcetera.

It's just... It's the way it is.
Big deal, no-one dies.

One person did die, Mr Tucker.

Would you tell us how it works?
You know, you do me a favour, I do you a favour. Yeah?

And what might you expect in return?

Anything. What?

Well, a Kit-Kat, you might get.

I've had a Kit-Kat,
I've had, er, a-a big meal.

Could you give us an example?

Um... Well, yes.

I...

This is The Daily Mirror,

and I could get drummed out of the
Magic Circle for showing you this.

Anyway, this is The Daily Mirror...

about the Quiet Batpeople,
er, policy of Mrs Nicola Murray.

I was there that day. You can't see
me cos I've been cropped out here,

but this information here,
I made sure that those notes were in that place,

that they were available,
and that the picture editor knew where to find them.

Sorry, I'm just trying to...
trying to get this clear.

Was Mrs Murray not the subject of
huge derision as a result of this?

Er, no she was a subject
of huge derision before this.

But it was...

You were, you were trying to
undermine the leader of your party?

I was...

Would you say you were a loyal man,
Mr Tucker?

I'm loyal, yes.
I'm loyal to my party

and I feel that Mrs Murray's policies
were turning the party into...

I don't know if you've seen those
calendars with pictures of dogs that are dressed up in...

They've got little dresses
and hats on?

She was turning my party into that,
she was humiliating my party,

so I thought it was
absolutely vital

to focus the public's attention
onto that.

And yet you maintain that
you had great, I don't know, what, respect for Mrs Murray as a person.

Yeah. Yes. She was a great laugh
occasionally. Great dancer.

She's got terrific... hair.

She did a good job at DoSAC.

A much better job than her successor,
who, let's not forget,

was playing on a slide when the news
of Mr Tickel's death came out.

Thank you, Mr Tucker,
we're well versed in the events surrounding the death of Mr Tickel.

So tell me,

the PFI e-mail that led to the... to
the resignation of Nicola Murray.

Did you... Did you engineer that?

Mr Tucker? No. No.

No, I didn't.

And, er, the leaking of Mr Tickel's
health records?

I mean, do I detect your hand
in that, for instance?

No. No, no, no, no, no.

Look, politics is a war,
and politicians,

sometimes they lose
ideological limbs. Right?

They get media shrapnel
right in the face.

Sometimes they get a bullet
right in the brain.

Civilians know there is no way that
I would ever attack a civilian,

a real person,
and especially not somebody

with a history of mental illness.

Because that sort of thing...

makes me queasy.

So you're an ethical... leaker?

I use leaking to show up corruption,
to show up hypocrisy,

to show up idiocy.

And also the fourth horseman
of the political apocalypse, duplicity.

For instance, Fergus Williams...

He's coming up next, right?
Mm-hmm.

This is a guy,
he's a member of the junior party in this coalition, right?

This guy has already opened
a private channel to Dan Miller,

the Leader of the Opposition,

in order to talk about possibly
setting up a coalition with him,

because he knows very well
that this coalition government that he is lumbered with

is being torn to pieces,
like a bread stick at a picnic.

Mr Tucker,
you have just used this inquiry

to commit a leak in front of us!

I've not committed a leak!
Everybody in Westminster knows these talks have taken place. Everyone.

You're supposed to be investigating
this, discovering this stuff.

Now, you cannot not know what I
or anyone else tell you. Right?

You can't not know that. You cannot
not know what you now know.

Mr Tucker, are you familiar with
the rules of association football?

I understand if you're going
to have an affair you'd better take precautions,

like getting a superinjunction.
I ask you because this is me giving you a yellow card.

You're not to use this inquiry
to score political points.

Sorry, I'm... I apologise.

Did you see Mr Malcolm Tucker's
evidence earlier?

Er, yeah, I, er, saw it
out of the corner of my eye.

Do you want me to read what he said
about you? No, that's fine. That was the bit that I saw.

Embarrassing, I imagine.
Er, no, not at all.

Er, it was,
er... almost flattering, yeah,

to get, er, to get Tuckered.

It's a right of passage
in... in... in politics.

It happens to all of us, it's...

You know, it's like when
you're in a Russian jail, you get your face tattooed.

Mr Tucker mentioned meetings
between you and the Leader of the Opposition.

Did these take place?

They did, yes. Er, myself and Adam

were part of a team who had very
general, non-committal discussions

with, amongst others... Mr Miller.

And you discussed a potential
future coalition with his party

and the removal of your own party
leader, is that correct?

Sorry, could I... possibly answer
that question with another question?

I mean, not THAT question I'm just
asking but a further question.

Go on.

You do realise that YOU'RE being
spun here? You do see that?

Spun? Cos, you know...

Malcolm Tucker's not your common
or garden spin... doctor, right?

No, he's the, he's
the chief medical officer of spin.

He is Spinoza, you see,
so he'd... He had...

He didn't come here in order
to answer your questions,

he came here in order to get
you to then ask HIS questions...

Mr Williams, I don't want you to
answer with another question, I want you to answer it with an answer.

He's conducting you like, um...

Goldie.

Did you talk to Mr Miller
about removing your party leader?

Sorry, are you getting
Tucker's questions sort of beamed straight into your brain?

Mr Williams.

Finally,
on the subject of frustration,

would you say it's difficult to steer
policy ideas through your department?

Huh...

Er, yes, there are...

blockages. There is one person
in particular,

and, well, you know, I don't want
to identify her... or him,

if she was a man,
but this particular person, er...

is... er, rather inept,

and has hampered
a lot of our initiatives,

and she, or her-him, is,
um...

very difficult to remove.

And so she's a... He is a...

They are a stubborn blockage,
shall we say,

like, you know, when you get hair
and, um, soap in a plughole,

with... skin flakes.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr Williams.
That's, that's fine.

Sorry, can I just say...
We are very pressed for time.

Yeah, but I really didn't want
the last thing that I said, erm...

I'm sorry... to be skin flakes.
Thank you.

When did you first
become aware of Mr Tickel?

When he became the only, erm,
key worker

to refuse our offer
of alternative accommodation.

Then he sort of dropped off my radar.

The next thing I knew,
he was sewing badges on his tent

and shouting abuse
through a loudhailer.

Did you ever feel yourself
to be culpable in any way for his...

for his homelessness?

Look, he was homeless only in
the sense that he had no home. Er...

No, no, a housing association
flat was found, which he declined.

The POLICY didn't make him homeless.

The policy of selling off
the block of flats where he lived.

He made a positive decision
to be homeless.

It's the difference between
being punched in the face and punching yourself in the face.

Um...

Well, and why do you think,
to use your phrase,

he punched himself in the face?

Why? Well, because he was mentally,
er, er...

Because he... he had, er...

mental issues.

The e-mail leaked to The Guardian,

which you'll find on pages
276 to 277 in the evidence,

one of your advisers
describes Mr Tickel as...

erm, "fucking Florence Shiteingale".

Do you not feel that's, er,
a little callous?

This is, this is
rough and tumble office banter,

schoolboy showers stuff,
and schoolgirls' showers, er...

Not that... I mean, not,
not literally, but, er...

Are you familiar with the phrase
"data smuggling"?

Data... what?

Passing on data from a closed system
to an unauthorised source in exchange for money.

Oh, yes, I... I...
Well, seems everyone's at it.

A...are you at it, Mr Mannion?

No, I'm... I'm... I'm not very good
with technology.

The Papermate pen is still
cutting-edge technology as far as I'm concerned.

Writes upside-down, you know!

You've told the enquiry
that you didn't feel at all guilty

over Mr Tickel's death.

Well, I... I felt bad.
B... but not guilty.

I didn't kill him,
I've never killed anyone.

Noted, but I mean, do you think
you could've made a difference

if you had been contactable
that day? Why?

He wasn't trying to call me.
I... I'm not The Samaritans.

In fact,

apparently, tonally,
I have a very depressing voice.

Mr Mannion,
do you know Mr Alastair Leyton,

a senior executive at The Times?

Yes.

Did you ring Mr Leyton on 25th April

to tell him that Mr Tickel's medical
records had been unlawfully obtained

and that this might form the basis
of an explosive news story?

Did I, er, ring him on that day,
do you mean?

I, well, I can't remember.

Well, did you ring him
on any day telling him?

Look, I came into politics
to make a difference,

t...to dare, to get things done,

n...not to leak things,

or... or spin, or... or blag,

or... smuggle,

but to serve, with honest, hard work.

To do.

And did you DO something? Did you
contact your friend at The Times?

No, I... I didn't do that.

Perhaps we could start
by just giving us an idea

of what a... You know,
what a special adviser does?

Um, er...

Well, technically, essentially,
we just advise a minister.

Erm, sort of, media strategies,
political strategies...

that sort of thing.

But you're not permanent
members of the Civil Service?

Er, no, they're like the...
the worker ants.

We're more like...
Er, well, not the queens.

That would be, er, Peter Mannion and
to a lesser extent Fergus Williams.

We're more like the solider ants
that defend the queens.

Would you like to add anything,
Mr Kenyon?

Yes, I'm not sure
that the ant analogy helps...

at all.

Mr Smith, how would you characterise
your relationship with Mr Kenyon?

Er, well, I... I... I think
when you get two silverbacks like Adam and I in a room,

there's always going to be
a certain amount of chest-beating, but, erm...

there's a mutual respect.

Would you agree, Mr Kenyon?

Yes.

What about data smuggling?

I...is that something
that you were aware of?

Yeah, I mean of... of course I was
aware of it. I think we all were...

Absolutely. Yeah.

But I would say, I would say
it was, er, it was endemic, it happens every time.

Endemic?
It's commonplace.

Hospitals, er,
anywhere with public information.

GPs, passport offices,
you know, you name it,

they've all been known
to slip information for money.

Do any of you know
of specific individuals

who will offer this...
this information trade?

No. I don't, no. No.

Right, so just to clarify,
you say that it's endemic...

Rife, absolutely.

But you don't know anyone
who actually does it?

No. No.

No, I mean, I could if I needed to.
I...

have a very wide web of contacts.

Right, but it's not contacts...

not contacts that you use? Er, no.

My position is,
if you leak, you're weak.

If I'm going to come at you,
I'm going to come at you head on...

man-on-man.

That's how I like it...
Er, politically speaking.

You yourselves were subject to
a leak, weren't you, in The Guardian?

How did you feel about the e-mail
containing your thoughts

about Mr Tickel's death?

Um, it was, it was shameful
and it was insensitive...

Absolutely... and we would like
to apologise for that.

It's, it's dreadful. I agree.

I mean, their comments were
absolutely unforgivable, mortifying.

"How many Mr Tickels does it take
to change a lightbulb?"

"He doesn't have a lightbulb,
he's in a tent."

Mmm...

"How do you turn Mr Tickel
into Mr Happy?"

"Lithium."

"What's the difference between
Mr Tickel and Captain Oates?"

"Captain Oates
has a less stupid name."

And one feel that is particularly
cruel, Ms Messinger,

given... Mmm.

Mr Tickel's mental health, erm,
issues.

"The fucker's a nutbag."

I'm s... sor... I... I... I...

It... That is not OK.

Sorry.

If I could add a... a... a...
a mea culpa here,

rather than-than dancing around it.

Others may choose to attempt to
wriggle off the hook of, er, shame,

but, um, I cannot.

I cannot deny that my name
is on those e-mails,

and yet I do not recognise that man.

It is me and yet it is another,
and for that I am, um, truly sorry.

This has been a humbling moment
in my quest

to become the man I know I can be.

How did you react to the news
of Mr Tickel's death?

Shock. Absolute shock.
Fell to pieces. Devastation.

Awful, I mean we couldn't believe
it, it was... tragic...

Can I just refer you
to Dr Tara Strachan,

who I believe was in your department
for a meeting at that time,

and she described
the atmosphere in the office

as an atmosphere of elation,

and you, Mr Smith,
were seen to be punching the air.

Do you remember doing that?

I, er... I do not remember to that.

S... Well,
if you weren't punching the air, do you remember what you were doing?

I...I cannot say to that.

Is it fair to say that information
coming in and out of DoSAC is...

sticky, for want of a better word?

Yes. I would certainly agree
with that... to that.

If I... if I may speak freely
at this point,

I...I think the reason for a lot of
leaks coming out of DoSAC is that

it's very hard to get information
out of the official channels.

There's a kind of blockage,
is there? Exactly that.

Um, and an information blockage.
Er, and it... and it...

and it has to find its way out
through other... routes.

No, it is actually Terri Coverley,
um...

who is Head of Press, in name only.

Good, yes. It's Terri, definitely.
Yep.

I, Teresa Jessica Coverley,
do sincerely declare and affirm

that the evidence I shall give will
be the truth,

the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth.

Please be seated, Mrs Coverley.
Thank you very much.

Mr Hodge has some questions.

Very good to see you this morning,
infamous Terri Coverley.

Why are you smiling?
I'm not smiling.

Yeah, or rather I'm smiling,
but it's something I do when I'm nervous, erm...

And you have a guilty conscience?
No, no. No, no.

No, I don't have a guilty conscience
but I do have a guilty face.

Um, I... I...

I do blush a lot
and that's a circulation thing, not a moral thing,

though I do ACT guilty, um...

When I was a child, um...

my brother's hamster was put
into a remote control... aeroplane.

Tragic consequences, and, um...
unfortunately I was blamed for that,

though I had nothing to do with it.
It was... it was that I just looked guilty,

so I would ask you...
to bear that in mind.

Can you explain to us how
communications works in government?

Well, um, I use an analogy.

Erm...

I like to think that dealing
with the press

is not so much herding cats,
it's more herding sheep,

and I am the shepherdess,
um... if you like.

It's, it's... In order to be
an efficient shepherdess,

one needs a number of things,
I mean...

Firstly, one needs a whistle,
that's my voice.

Secondly, one needs a coat,
and that's my coat.

And thirdly, one needs a dog,

and that, in my case,
is a lady called Robyn.

How was your relationship
with Nicola Murray?

Professionally or personally?

Professionally. Not good.

And personally?

Not good. No, I mean she resented
me, she was jealous of me, I think.

I mean, a lot of women are.

It's no secret that... Well,
she's a woman who has issues, er...

Major issues.

I felt... If you want me to be
truthful, I felt very sorry for her.

And your relationship
with Peter Mannion?

Oh...

Yeah, very, very, very good.

Um, yes.
Both professionally and personally.

Although of course, I... I draw
a... you know, between the two.

But he's a lovely man to... work
with, to be... to be with,

to be close to, and...

Several others have referred
to you as a blockage.

Perhaps they meant...

"buffer".

Because I am a buffer
between their heads...

and things
that want to hurt their heads.

Who, in your opinion,

was responsible for the PFI e-mail
being leaked?

Well, it's not for me to say,

and I don't want to be accused
of telling tales before school...

But I think it was Malcolm Tucker.

Why do you think that? Erm...

Feminine intuition.

Feel it in my water.

Any reasons beyond your bladder?

Well, Malcolm can be very, very
tough. I mean, that's no secret.

Can you give me an example?

Well, he can send
very forthright texts.

Would you say he was bullying?

Well, I can look after myself.

I mean, I wasn't bullied at school.
I was very popular.

But if you were somebody w... who...
who had been bullied at school,

somebody who was weak
or not popular,

someone like Robyn, for example,
yes, I think Malcolm Tucker

would be very, very intimidating
indeed, yes...

You're happy to go on record
saying Malcolm was a bully?

Um... Malcolm is a bully?

Mmm...

We'll need a yes or a no.

Well, yes, then. Yes.

Mr Tucker is in next.
I can't imagine he'll be very happy about that.

No, he won't. No, he won't.

Right... Well, I think we can
leave it there, Mrs Coverley.

Oh, good. Sorry, I mean, thank you.

Thank you, thank you very much...

Your Lordship.

We may need to call you back,

as I feel there are some issues
that still need clarification.

Very good, yes, of course.

Thank you for agreeing to return to
us at such short notice, Mr Tucker.

It's no problem. You only appear in
front of the Goolding Inquiry twice,

once on the way up and once on the
way down. Let's hope not.

Glad to see you again, Mr Tucker.

Nice to be here.

Did you watch the evidence
given by Terri Coverley?

Yes. And I found her quite funny,
without resulting to vulgarity.

She was very clear
that she regarded you as a bully,

something you denied
in your first testimony.

How do you respond to that?

Um, well, I respond thusly.
That's slander.

We're trying to clarify
the culture of communications

over which you presided.

And we have a contradiction
between participants.

Well, I would say that I'm someone
who lives and breathes communication,

so I would lend more weight
to my words,

rather than to someone who
is just in it for the pension.

And how is that not slander?

Well, because that's true.

She wants a pension more
than Richard Hammond wants a punch in the face.

You know, she sat here for an hour.

You can't have looked at her
and thought this was not a person who isn't mentally unrobust?

I'd like to return to
the Batpeople photograph, if I may.

Why not? Yes, one of my triumphs.

You said you were cropped
out of the original photo.

Sadly, yes.

But they have enlarged.
Can we show the enlargement?

They've enlarged that photograph
for us.

Now, could we go to the close-up
of the folders

that you're carrying...

in that photograph, there we are.

Who enlarged this? Er...

Was it The Guardian that did this
for you? I believe so...

I didn't know they were offering
that service. They should do passport photos.

Thank you. They'd double
their revenue if they did passport photos a couple of times.

This is the folder that you are
carrying in your hand,

and you see there there's a document
poking up out of the top,

on the notepad.

Um, there's a series of numbers
written across the top there.

Would you be able to tell us
what the first two numbers are?

I don't... Well, they look like
telephone numbers, I don't know.

Yes, they are Mr Tickel's
mobile phone number

and his ex-wife's landline number.

Yeah.

Well, there's nothing untoward
about me having those.

Well, actually Mrs Tickel's phone
number was ex-directory.

But let's just leave that
to one side for a moment.

Very wise.

The bottom set of numbers.

Do you have any recollection
as to what they might be?

No.

Really? You didn't even look.

Where are we going with this?

They are Mr Tickel's NHS number

and his National Insurance number.

Mr Tucker.

Ffff...

So why would you have that?

I don't, I don't recall...

Sorry, can I just clarify that?

Are you saying you don't recall
having them,

or you don't recall
how you obtained them?

Um...

I don't... recall having them!

But it... It appears to me that
you have been rather careless

in this instance, Mr Tucker.

Not at all.

No? You were photographed
with these papers,

you flaunted your ruse
to puff yourself up,

thereby drawing attention
to this photograph,

this photograph which
is now implicating you

in a rather troubling way.

Sorry, I didn't hear
a question there.

Is there a question here?

It was an observation, Mr Tucker.

It's an observation,

so what are we, is this an inquiry
or an observatory?

It's an opticians.

You'd like a question.
Here is a question for you.

Do you have an explanation
for having these numbers?

Those numbers are not necessarily
what you say they are.

Did you request this information?

Um...

Because, Mr Tucker, if you didn't
request the information, the only

other way that it could have come to
you would have been if somebody had

supplied you with his NHS number,
which would, of course, be illegal.

Yes.

Yes. As would obtaining
his health records

and releasing them to the press.

Which you denied all
knowledge of earlier,

and you would have
committed a crime.

Well, I...

Mr Tucker, a very serious crime.

Well, as you say, I denied it.

Yes. And, um...

Do you repeat that denial here?

I'm not sure that you know exactly
how this all works.

Mr Tucker,
are you repeating that denial?

Yes, I'm...

I... I am.

I deny it. I do deny it.

Thank you.

Of course you were, until quite
recently, Leader of the Opposition.

You led your party for...

For two years, yes.

For 22 months and nine days.

Yes, I was rounding up.

How does it feel to lose that
position so abruptly,

and so publicly?

Um, horrible. It feels horrible.

I think I felt as I would feel

if I were being strangled to
death by somebody I trusted.

Yes, er, the press have been
unkind to you over

much of your recent career,
haven't they?

Well, when you're
a high-profile politician,

you expect to be in the public gaze.
Um, I would say that there's a...

there's a certain level of extra
scrutiny that is afforded

to women in the public gaze,
I'm sure you would agree.

Well, you were, um, followed around
for six months

by a man dressed as a pork chop.

Is that the particular
kind of scrutiny that,

that you're saying is reserved
for women?

No, that was just reserved for me.

If we, um,
just could turn to tab 16.

We have some articles,
there's quite a few, actually.

On top of the second page here there
is an exploded view of your face.

Yes, well they have, um...

They have magnified
a picture of my top lip,

er, in the hope of finding
a moustache, which I do not have,

I never have had a moustache, so...

If we, er, yes, again, if we turn
to the fourth page of this tab.

"Frumpy, grumpy and dangerous
to know."

"How Nicola Murray went from
gold to lead in six months."

I mean, this is typical of, er,
of many of the pieces

printed about you at the time,
about a year ago, wasn't it?

Yes, it was.

Over 35 major articles.

Yes. Yeah.

I mean, I suppose the point I'd make
is that we're sitting here

in our ivory, um, inquiry.

And out there, in the real world,
there is actual news happening.

You know, we've got the chief whip's
office, you know,

during the course of this morning has
come under very particular scrutiny,

there are funding issues, there's
the justice minister crisis

that's suddenly sort of spiralling
out of control.

I just, I don't quite know why we're,
we're focussing on my moustache.

Which I don't have.

I'm afraid both of those very
recent developments

may well be the subject of police
investigations,

so cannot be discussed in this room.

Which shows they've done the job.

Done the job?

Well, it just seems to me that
somebody is engineering

this flurry of press reports in order
to divert attention from the, er,

shall we say dramatic revelations
of this inquiry. I mean, it just,

it just seems like there's another
story every five minutes.

And who would that somebody be?

Well, um. I...
Maybe we should ask Taggart!

Would you care to make a specific
allegation against someone?

Er, no I wouldn't care to, no.

On a completely unrelated matter,

Malcolm Tucker was pleased to see
you go, is that a fair statement?

Yes, I think that would be
fair to say. Yes.

Mmm.

Did he engineer the leaking of the
e-mail that led to your resignation?

Er, well, I don't have
any solid evidence

that he did that. Um...

Sounds like somebody else's career
has just gone into the shredder!

I have asked for all mobile phones
to be turned completely off, please.

I'm sorry, Mrs Murray.

Yes, it is...

Mr Hodge.

Mrs Murray, we spoke earlier about
your husband's interests

in the key worker, er,
housing sell off.

Yes, we spoke about his lack
of interest in fact, to be precise.

Yes, well, I've no wish to retread
that particular ground.

No, I've no wish to either,

I mean, I really do want to make that
quite clear.

I'm finding this constant reiteration
of my husband's, er,

innocent position to be wearing
in the extreme.

Mrs Murray, may I remind you

that you did ask for this inquiry
to be set up.

I didn't not want an inquiry.

Well, presumably there was something
that you feel that needed

to be said, needed to be asked,
about, er, about PFI, about leaking.

I think, er, that it's a good idea
to have an inquiry

every now and then.
I just think it, um...

Livens things up a bit.

On that subject, was it, um,

Mr Tucker who persuaded you call for
an inquiry into Mr Tickel's death?

Er, I called for the inquiry

after Mr Tucker had spoken to me.

Is there a better party
happening elsewhere?

I'm sorry Mrs Murray, in view of
events developing

outside of this room, some of
which may be subject to police

investigations, and consequently
to re-examine the parameters

of this inquiry, I think we'll leave
it there for the moment, Mrs Murray.

Well, yeah, I have actually prepared
a very brief statement,

which I think will
clarify my position on...

I'm afraid we don't have
the time for that.

It is very brief. Um, I think it was
Gandhi who once said

that an honest man is a gift
from God and a gift to...

I'm sure a written submission will
suffice. Thank you so much.

I'm now going to adjourn
for a short period.

Fuck's sake.

Please be seated. Thank you
for your attendance, Ms Murdoch.

Um, Mr Weir has some questions.

If I can turn to you, Ms Murdoch.

How would you describe your
relationship with Ms Coverley?

Do you, do you get on well with her,
with her?

No.

Can you, um... Can you expand
on that for us a little?

No.

I do not...

get on with her.

Um, we do not get on.

I think we do!

There may have been times when we do
get on, and have got on.

Um, I do not recall to that.
Thank you.

Ms Coverley, you compared Ms Murdoch
to a dog and described her as weak

in our last interview.

Yeah, er, I like, I like weak dogs,
I have, I have one myself, so...

Would you say that there is a
culture of bullying within DoSAC?

If I could ask you first,
Ms Murdoch.

Um, I'd say there was a culture
of bullying ME at DoSAC.

You've experienced bullying there?

Well, you know, I, I see them
all standing around, you know,

chattering like squirrels
on Red Bull.

When I ask them
what they're talking about,

they usually bark a tea order at me.

Or, you know, or call me, er,
the blonde bombshite,

if I can use that word,
or some other horrible sweary thing.

That's the form that
the bullying takes?

And if you refuse to make
your boss's tea, you know,

they, they call you
Mariella Shitstrop.

Or Flouncy Sinatra, which,
which doesn't even really work!

And can I ask you both about
the leaked Guardian e-mail?

Oh, yes!

Ask anything you like, I don't
know anything about that bit.

Yeah, thank you, Robyn. The e-mail
was leaked from my computer,

which is proof that it was not me
that sent it, um,

people do not leak from their own
computers, that's not how it's done.

How is it done then, Mrs Coverley?

I don't know.

Well, you've just said
something that implies

you do know how it's done.

I don't know.

How do you know, then,

that leaking is done from other
people's computers?

Do you learn this from
a leakers' charter?

Is it perhaps put up on
a staff notice board?

Mr Glenn Cullen informed me.

He, er, he told me that if leaking is
done, it's done from other computers.

Glenn Cullen.

Yeah, I'm not saying anything about
Glenn Cullen himself, you understand.

You know, he is a very,
very trustworthy individual.

Borderline priest.

No, Terri's right.
I heard it was Glenn who did it.

No, I did not say that
Glenn Cullen did it.

No, I, when I, I meant that Glenn
told you, not that,

that I meant that Glenn did it.

To return for the moment to
the subject of bullying,

where did Malcolm Tucker
stand in all this?

The department's a horrible place,
and when Malcolm was there

he was part of that, you know,
he was the big bully.

The other people are horribly rude,

and the rudeness is unnecessary,
but, you know,

I don't get any sense that they've,
they've got a big plan or anything.

You know, to be honest,

I think they're just trying to get
through the day without

cocking up, and drink as many hot
drinks as possible in the process.

Moving on, do you know
anything about Malcolm Tucker's

involvement with data smuggling?
Specifically private NHS details.

I think...

Er, no, no, I'm afraid we don't.

I don't. Um, would it be
possible for me to revise my,

the opinion that I gave of Malcolm
Tucker on my first appearance?

Your Lordship? Yes?

You may revise it, but of course
it will stay on the record.

OK, um, well, I just wanted to make
it absolutely clear that

having thought about it in the grand
scheme of things,

I don't think it is fair to say that
Malcolm is a bully or he's brutal.

Certainly not when you compare him
to some of his fellow countrymen.

Well, I think Malcolm's really
difficult, and you do too, Terri.

Don't know why you're being so coy.
It's not like he'll do a... you know.

A you know? What's, what's this?

You know,
that story about you in the papers.

A story involving me
in the newspapers is not the subject

of this investigation, so we are not
going to discuss it any further.

Now, er, Miss Murdoch, what
about the use of data smuggling,

er, within government?

Do you know anything about that?

Yeah, loads. Um, there are dodgy
people in the NHS

and the benefits office who talk
to investigators all the time.

Do you have experience of this?
Yeah, I've been on the receiving end of it.

I didn't know that the
notes your GP makes are available

to your local pharmacist.

I went to see my mother's
doctor about her alcohol problem,

which is a private family matter.

Next thing I knew,
it's all round the village.

Yes.
And now it's all round the world.

Exactly.

She's saying that that's your fault.

How?

Oh.

As you can see,
Baroness Sureka is not with us

and will remain absent while she
deals with the personal allegations

published in the Sunday Times.

This in no way invalidates
the inquiry, nor does it compromise

the integrity of any questioning
conducted by Baroness Sureka.

Mr Hodge.

Thank you.

Er, Oliver Reeder, you were a senior
advisor to Nicola Murray

during her time as
Secretary of State at DoSAC.

Yup. I was, er, the senior advisor.

Good, and when Ms Murray became
Leader of the Opposition,

er, you were also one of her
senior advisors?

Yeah. Again, the,
the senior advisor, yeah.

I see, and now you're a senior
advisor to Mr Dan Miller?

Yeah, yeah, slight, a slightly less
pivotal role with, with Dan,

but part of a, kind of,
larger pivot, really.

Mm-hmm, thank you.
Er, well, Mr Reeder,

they say that in politics
knowledge is power.

True, yes, although that doesn't
mean that Carol Vorderman

should be Prime Minister!

Or should I say Stephen Fry,
cos Carol's just maths, but yeah.

You've known Malcolm Tucker for,
for some years now.

Yes, I have, yes.

He seems like a,
an intimidating person. Is he?

Er, well, I mean not, not to me.

No?

No, er, no, er, no,
although he doesn't,

he doesn't suffer fools gladly,
I think that's fair to say,

or, um, or clever people,
to be honest.

So he's never, er, bullied you?

Well, do I, do I look like I could
be bullied by Mr Tucker?

I could... No.

Could you turn to tab nine?

You'll find it in your,
in your folder there, yeah.

Um, we have some, er,
some quotes here.

Some evidence from several
civil servants who, who all

independently suggest that Mr Tucker,
in fact, regularly did bully you.

"Mr Tucker threatened to remove
Mr Reeder's appendix,

"throw away Mr Reeder,

"and appoint the useless flap
of colon as special advisor."

Yeah.

Um... Well that's, yes!

That's banter.

"Mr Tucker told Mr Reeder that he
would have him smothered,

"eviscerated, stuff, fitted with
wheels, and donated to an orphanage."

That's, what... cos this
is out of context,

what you don't have there
is my reply.

And so, you know, it's just him.
And what was that?

Er, well, I don't remember
what it was on this occasion.

It would have been, but it would
have been a, you know, kkk!

It would have been a zinger, because
I gave as good as I got,

so it's not bullying.
Very good.

Is there anything about the leaking
of the so-called PFI e-mail

that you feel that this inquiry
should, should be aware of?

Oh, God, um...

I mean, um...

I mean, to be brutally frank,

I'm, I'm struggling to
remember here, but...

Well, please take your time.
There's no hurry.

Of course, yeah, I mean I think,
you know, what,

what you have to remember,
in this instance, is that on the day

that all of that stuff took place,
um, I was in hospital.

So I'm, you know, I'm cut off,
essentially, I didn't have a phone.

But I mean, I hadn't mentioned, er,
the use of a phone, I mean...

Yes, no, I know,
I'm simply saying I was...

You weren't working
remotely from the hospital?

No, no, not remotely, um, er, in,
in either sense. No. No.

Did you have any visitors?

Erm...

You must be able to remember that.

Well, if you're not completely sure,
Mr Reeder,

you can always check with
the visitors' records.

Well, don't, let's not do that, um,
let's not do that for the moment,

let me just, if, just give,
bear with me, er, but I did, yes,

I think I was visited
by colleagues from the office.

Can you give us a name?

Er, Malcolm is, um,
is his name, Malcolm's name,

Malcolm, Malcolm Tucker visited me.

I'm assuming this wasn't a social
visit, what did, er,

what did he,
what did Mr Tucker want?

He wanted to, he, I mean,
what, what, OK.

I mean, I'm really, I'm,
I'm anxious, I'm keen,

I'm trying my best to answer your,
er, questions truthfully...

I should remind you
you are under oath, Mr...

Absolutely, yes, I'm under oath,
so this is... but, but, er...

What you have to understand is,

everybody has something on
everyone here, right?

So in this circumstance, if you
inadvertently say or do something,

um, er, you know, you shouldn't,
then that's it, that's it,

that's it, it's done,
your career is done.

You know, look what happened to
a member of this inquiry, right?

So you have to...

This is not the place to discuss
those allegations. No, of course.

Mr Reeder, if you feel... Yeah.

You feel under pressure, am I right?
Is that because of something that you know?

Yes, no, er, general pressure,
I feel under a, a sort of,

just that, it's the jitters of work.

Who leaked the e-mail, Mr Reeder?

Glenn, er, Cullen.

Er, he was in DoSAC at the time,

and he, er, still had access to
the e-mail, and he hated his life,

he, he, you know, he hated Nicola
Murray because she'd previously

destroyed his chances
of standing as an MP.

Most helpful,
Glenn Cullen is our next witness.

Most interesting, thank you.

Oh, well, OK.
That's fine, thank you.

Mr Cullen.

I wonder if I could start by taking
you back to that time two years ago.

You left Nicola Murray, and you went
to work for Fergus Williams.

Yes, yes I did, that's right.

And you found yourself in a
coalition with the very party

that you opposed. That must have
been extremely distressing.

Er, no, not at all, as a matter
of fact. I was very invigorated

by the idea of, er, trying to forge
a new way in politics.

Mm-hmm, so all was rosy?

Well, um,
can't think of any negatives.

No friction?

No, the only F word was fun.

Thank you, Mr Cullen.

Mr Cullen.

Would you say there's a culture
of leaking in the government?

Yes, I would. Yes, leaking and lying.

To your knowledge have any of your
colleagues lied to this inquiry?

Well, I mean, that's a bit like
asking, you know, um,

does a cow drink milk?

Does it?

Probably.

But what I meant to say was, er, yes,

um, my colleagues lie constantly,
it's a professional necessity.

Have you ever leaked, Mr Cullen?

First of all, may I just say, er,
welcome back, Baroness Sureka,

big hugs, I'm sure
I speak to everyone here

when I say that we're all thinking of
you, er, and, er, you have been...

I'd rather you, um, swapped the
ham-fisted flattery for actually

answering my question,
which was have you ever leaked?

Right. No, it's a very simple
question

and it's got a very simple answer.
No, I haven't.

Um, you'll be aware of Ollie
Reeder's testimony to the inquiry

where he said that you were, in
fact, responsible for the PFI leak.

Yes, I am.

But, no, which means to say
I am aware of, of that.

But, gosh, you've got to be careful
what you say here, haven't you?

You certainly do, Mr Cullen.
Let's hope we're up to it.

Is there any truth at all
in Mr Reeder's accusations?

Absolutely none whatsoever.

He's talking out of his...
out of his other cheeks, if you...

Why would Oliver Reeder
suggest that you were behind

the PFI e-mail leak, then?

I've absolutely no idea.

It's very difficult for me
to get into the mindset of somebody

so entirely self-serving and,
um, spiritually ugly.

I mean, anyone who's been unfortunate
enough to have come across

Ollie Reeder will know that
he is a genuinely...

atrocious person.

Mmm. Do you believe Mr Reeder was
trying to cover himself in that case?

Well, I do believe he has the
emotional tools for the task. Yes, certainly.

Do you believe that Ollie Reeder
was behind the leak?

No.

You see...

A leak of this magnitude
would require

one essential item
that Ollie lacks.

And that's a spine.

He is a man without a spine,
he is a man worm,

he's a writhing mollusc without
any strategies or convictions,

he simply slimes his way into
the nearest crack every night,

and I would like to put on record
that I apologise to this committee

for being the man who brought him
into the world of politics.

The whole truth,
and nothing but the truth.

Thank you for returning to this
inquiry, Mr Tucker.

That's no problem, no.

I had a hair appointment, but I
think they can fit me in next week.

There's no need to be so flippant
about this inquiry.

Well, it's just, you know, you keep
asking me the same questions,

I can't really help it
if you don't like the answers.

Maybe you could try a little
harder in answering.

I'm amazed you've stayed at the top
of politics for, for quite

so long with such apparently
poor powers of recall.

Maybe it's my age.
It's good to see you back.

Thank you. Nice to see you too.

At your last appearance
at this inquiry,

you admitted that you have leaked.
Is that correct?

Well, everyone leaks. Many, many
people who appeared here in

front of you, er, have leaked, but
they've just lied about it to you.

Mr Tucker,
that's an incredibly serious charge,

do you have any evidence to
substantiate that allegation?

Well, you will forgive me
if I don't do your job for you.

Because if you can't spot
a sprayed-on halo

while someone doing a, you know,
"What me, guv?" panto act,

maybe you shouldn't be sitting
behind that desk.

At your last appearance
we asked you very specifically

how you came by Mr Tickel's NHS
number and National Insurance number,

and you could not recall.

Have you had any more time
to think about it?

Yes, I have.

And could you tell us any more?

No.

You've got no recollection at all?

No. By the way, you should not be
talking to me about this,

because you've been
a victim of a leaking,

a very unfortunate victim,
and I have every sympathy with you.

How can you possibly give me
a fair hearing when you've been

a victim of the very crime that
you are accusing me of?

You are prejudiced, this entire
inquiry, therefore, is prejudiced.

I can see what you're doing.

It smacks of desperation
and it will not work.

Does it?

No, listen, there you go again,
see that's it,

you're just rushing to judgment.

You are totally discredited here.

I am obliged to remind you,
Mr Tucker, that you are under oath,

and if you lie to this inquiry, it
may result in a criminal prosecution.

Sorry, please don't insult my
intelligence by acting as if

you're all so naive that you don't
know how this all works.

Everybody in this room has bent
the rules to get in here,

because you don't get in this room
without bending the rules,

you don't get to where you are
without bending the rules,

that's the way it is.

Mr Tucker, I'm going to give you
one more chance

to respond to my question.

How did you acquire
Mr Tickel's NHS number

and his National Insurance number?

Who said I acquired it?

A photograph.

No, no, the photograph
shows me holding it.

Doesn't show me acquiring it.

You'd have to ask the person
that gave me the folder.

Who gave you the folder?
I don't remember.

You are being deliberately evasive.

I...

I don't...

recall, you know. I don't,
I don't know, I can't remember.

Very well.

Regardless of how you came by
Mr Tickel's mental health records,

did you then leak them to the media?

I can't recall.

So that's not a denial?

Je ne remember rien.

Well, if you can't recall,

it leaves open the possibility
that you did leak them.

Let me tell you this.

The whole planet's leaking,
everybody is leaking.

You know, everyone's spewing
out their guts onto the internet.

Putting up their,
their relationship status,

and, er, photos of their vajazzles.

We've come to a point where there
are people, millions of people,

who are quite happy to trade a
kidney in order to go on television.

And to show people their knickers,
to show people their skid marks,

and then complain to OK Magazine
about a breach of privacy.

The exchange of private information,
that is what drives our economy.

But you come after me

because you can't, you can't arrest
a land mass, can you?

You can't, you can't cuff a country.

You might as well just go and go,

you can't lynch that guy there,
can you?

But you decide that you can sit
there, you can judge,

and you can ogle me
like a Page Three girl.

You don't like it?
Well, you don't like yourself.

You don't like your species,
and you know what?

Neither do I, but how dare you come
and lay this at my door.

How dare you blame me for this.

Which is the result
of a political class...

which has given up on morality.

And simply pursues popularity
at all costs.

I am you, and you are me.

Are you finished?

Ah, I'm finished anyway.

You didn't finish me.

Would you like to stand down?

Thanks.

Subtitles by MemoryOnSmells
http://UKsubtitles.ru.

Are you not the human router?

The human router, yes.

But I think you'll find that leaking
is very much a 3G business.

You know? It's, it's off
the house wi-fi grid.

I assume you're referring to
the leaking of Mr Tickel's

medical records, and I would like to
say, I find that disgraceful,

and I would like that on the record.

Everything we say here
is on the record,

Mr Williams, that's how this works.

Well, that's great.

When I was a journalist, OK,
when I, when I was a journalist at the Mail, I used leaks.

Now I'm in government,
I do not leak.

Wayne Rooney, for example,
he used to score goals for Everton.

And now he plays for,
for Manchester United.

Now, nobody expects him to score
goals for Everton any more, do they?

I mean, if he did that,
United would give him the sack.

Although you did previously
describe yourself as a shepherdess.

Now, did you have something
to add to that?

I just, shepherdess, did she say,
did you say shepherdess?

Yes, I was, I was giving an analogy,
I mean to be, to be fair,

Perhaps it would be more
accurate to describe myself

as a sheep in shepherdess's
clothing.

Do you follow?

Err, no, not, not, er, completely.
No.

The shepherdess analogy
is flawed anyway.

Malcolm Tucker is very much
a political Flintstone. You know.

He carved his press
releases into stone tablets.

He uses a bird's beak to play
his Happy Monday vinyls. He leaks.

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