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ALAN BATES: The computer system Post
Office spent an arm and a leg on
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00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:04,960
is faulty.
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00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:06,960
I haven't got that money!
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00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:09,960
The losses must have been caused
by Mr Castleton's own error.
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00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:14,960
You're inside subpostmasters'
Horizon... and he doesn't know?
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00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,960
We're ready to mount
and fund an independent review.
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Mr Rutherford's organisation,
Second Sight,
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will be working for us, the MPs,
and therefore indirectly for you.
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They had no right
to take you to court at all.
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They destroyed our whole life...
for a lie?
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Alan, it's Paula Vennells.
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Where do we go from here?
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Sorry, Martin, I hit every red
light on the way here, mate.
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Oh, come on.
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You don't get no more cheerful, pal.
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Ah, we all do, mate. Long day?
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They're all long days.
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Any specials with these?
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Giro pouch. Cheque pouch.
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I'll have to come back for them.
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WEARILY: Oh.
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MEN SHOUT,
CRASHING
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AGGRESSIVE SHOUTING
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MARTIN YELLS IN PAIN
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Please! No... don't...!
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Don't!
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MUFFLED SHOUTS
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Stay there! Don't look at me!
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YELLING CONTINUES
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Come on, hurry up!
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Hurry up!
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Go, go, go, go!
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MARTIN YELLS
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HE YELPS AND GASPS
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Martin, let's talk about
what happened.
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The total loss to Post Office funds
that day were £54,354.96.
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The police were there
in five minutes.
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They got most of it back.
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This is a culpability interview,
Martin.
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You had the parcel hatch open
and the safe.
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In accordance with section 12,
paragraph 18
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of the subpostmasters' contract...
Martin?
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..you're bound to take
reasonable precautions
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to safeguard official cash
and property.
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DOOR CLOSES
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You are therefore contractually
liable for an amount of...
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Seven and a half thousand pounds?
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So now the armed robbery
is our fault, too.
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It wasn't the robbery
that got me sacked.
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Sacked? What?
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I'm already under investigation
for the Horizon shortfalls,
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and now the robbery.
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Three months' notice.
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Oh, Martin.
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For four years of, every day,
opening that door, waiting for...
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For what?
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For the day to end.
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"Terminated for continued
poor accounting performance,
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"not operating individual
stock units correctly.
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' "Failure to make good losses
in a timely manner."
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'They're just going on'
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and on about the contract
and blaming Martin for everything,
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never accepting
it's Horizon's fault.
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How big did the shortfalls get?
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£61,000 altogether.
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'They've had our savings already.
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'And our parents'.'
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Alan, we've nothing left to give.
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OK.
Wow!
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JO: Every time we meet,
there's more of us...
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Thank you.
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..and we're always ravenous.
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Have we eaten Alan?
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That phone is a full-time job.
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And the effect it had
on the family was...
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00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,960
I mean, not just me and Lisa,
but, you know, the kids, we...
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00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:06,960
I mean, we had to move
the schools, you know,
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cos of the bullying.
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00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:12,640
And then our daughter,
Millie-Jo, she hit her teens and...
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..just stopped eating.
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It was anorexia.
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And they say don't blame yourselves.
But you do.
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Yeah, of course you do.
And nobody understands, do they?
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Jo's always been very kind to us,
hasn't she?
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We call her, "Mum".
Yeah.
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If she's Mum, what's Alan?
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We don't call him Dad.
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Alan's the godfather.
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Shall we, eh, crack on?
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Yep. The Don has spoken.
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You all right?
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00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:52,960
The thing is, Alan, I'm not sure
my computer was really the problem.
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I just had endless power cuts.
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36 of them in one day.
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If you get a power cut in the
middle of a transaction, poof!
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No wonder it comes out wrong.
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00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,960
You see, erm, my husband died...
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and I took over.
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It was just before
Horizon was installed.
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00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:18,960
But then they didn't put the new
electricity lines in properly.
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Oh, Pam. Really?
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Doesn't it just go to show
how absolutely bloody useless
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they can be about
the simplest bloody things?
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I told them
when they closed me down, I said...
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.."If you can prove
that I stole that money,
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"then send the police round,
send them now."
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Since then, I have not slept.
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And I've been scared
every waking moment,
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expecting that knock on the door.
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I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.
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You've got nothing to
be sorry for, Pam.
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00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,960
I'm just so... I'm just so angry.
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I hate being so angry!
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If I ever say
I'm going to give this up,
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remind me about people like Pam.
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So, to, er, to recap, er,
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my chat with Paula Vennells has
resulted in a new investigation
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and mediation scheme which
will allow all of us to apply
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for the compensation we deserve.
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Even people like me and Jo?
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Alan's got their commitment here
in black and white.
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The Post Office says
you may put your case
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through the mediation scheme,
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even if you've already received
a police caution
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or been subject to a criminal
prosecution or conviction.
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If we got our money back.
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00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:02,960
And our good names.
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An apology, even.
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00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,640
Or just getting to the truth.
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00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:09,960
So, with your agreement,
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Kay and I will defend your interests
every step of the way.
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We will look into each individual
case and fight our corner.
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I know, but, Alan,
do you trust them?
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I mean, do we trust them? Really?
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00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,000
Well...
CHUCKLES
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..they're putting money
and effort into it,
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and it's coming from the top, so...
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00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,800
Well, it's got to be worth a try.
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Shall we have a vote?
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All those in favour?
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Great.
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42 pence change.
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Book of six first-class stamps,
please. There you go, thank you.
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Sorry?
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00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:04,960
LOUDER: £3.60.
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00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:20,800
'For a long time,
he suspected the staff, you know,
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'of stealing from the tills.
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'The bad feeling
that's still causing.
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'But if it wasn't them,
then it had to be his fault,
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'like he's stupid, which he isn't.'
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That was before - before we knew
about the Horizon thing.
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Can I talk to him?
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'Well, he won't talk to me
about it, even now.'
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It drives me mad.
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I know he's got depression.
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He's a proud father, and I think
he thinks he's failed us.
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'Failed our family.'
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Gina...
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put him on.
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00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:09,960
Love.
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00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:16,960
It's Alan Bates.
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00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,800
He wants to talk to you.
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00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:21,960
Please, Martin.
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00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:32,960
Martin?
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'Yes.'
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Listen. Martin...
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you're not alone.
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00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:41,960
There's a lot of us, and...
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'there's a new scheme
you can apply for.
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'I'm going to send you the forms.
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'Martin, you might get
some of your money back.'
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Erm...
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..I can't talk to you
right now.
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Ma...
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People are trying to help here!
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'I'm so sorry. Erm...'
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00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,960
He's just... He's...
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I'll send you the forms,
but get him to apply.
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00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:10,960
It's important.
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00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:15,960
I'll try.
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Bloody traffic.
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00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,320
Hi.
Oh, hi.
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00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,960
I'm a little late for a meeting
with Susan Crichton.
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Bob. Good to see you.
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00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,960
Susan's left us.
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00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:33,960
Why?
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New times, new opportunities.
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Moving forward,
I'll be your main point of contact.
189
00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,960
'This is Susan Crichton.
I have left the Post Office.
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'Thank you for NOT leaving
a message.'
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Bob...
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..we need to talk.
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00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,960
'I'm not bloody signing up
to this nonsense.'
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The Post Office want me to stay on,
but it's pointless.
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They've unilaterally taken away
our access to
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00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:02,960
the legal and prosecution files.
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00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:07,960
I can't investigate in a blindfold
with both hands tied behind my back.
198
00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:09,960
Alan, professionally,
I just can't do it.
199
00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:11,640
Bob, grit your teeth.
200
00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:13,320
We can't do this without you.
201
00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:14,960
I don't know
why you're doing it at all.
202
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,960
You do know why.
We have to go to mediation
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00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:19,960
because we can't afford to go
it alone.
204
00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:21,000
You're an idiot to trust them, Alan.
205
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,960
I think they're mostly
just a bunch of lying bastards.
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00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:25,960
And I think they're wasting
your time and mine.
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00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:27,960
Bob, if you walk away now,
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00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,960
you'll never find out
which of those bastards IS lying,
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00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,960
what they knew and when.
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00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,960
And you'll never find out what
happens at the end of the story.
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00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,160
BOB CHUCKLES
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00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:42,960
We must both be mad.
213
00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,800
We are. Pint?
214
00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:48,960
Big day tomorrow.
215
00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:52,960
Your appeal against dismissal.
216
00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:57,960
Martin.
217
00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,480
Why don't I run you a bath?
It'll relax you.
218
00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,960
I'm all right. I'm OK, I'm OK.
219
00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,960
Please let me wash these clothes,
you've been wearing them for days.
220
00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:21,960
Don't you wanna wash your hair,
love?
221
00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:23,960
For tomorrow!
222
00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:24,960
It's a big day.
223
00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:26,960
All I'm saying is...
224
00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,960
..we could just make a little bit
of an effort to look nice.
225
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:31,960
Gina, leave me alone, please.
226
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:33,640
OK.
227
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:43,960
'We've been over this.'
228
00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:45,960
A parcel hatch is about that big.
229
00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:47,960
Then you've got a sack of mail,
which is...
230
00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:49,960
You know how big
a sack of mail is, yeah?
231
00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,480
Once they were in with weapons,
even if the safe was closed,
232
00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,960
what would you do if they threatened
you and said, "Open the safe!"?
233
00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:05,960
I hope you're having
a fabulous morning.
234
00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:07,960
The time is now coming up to 6:20AM,
235
00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:09,960
and it's time
for a little traffic update.
236
00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,960
It looks like there's congestion
on the M62,
237
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,160
and it's building up
to the Runcorn turn-off.
238
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,960
Martin?
239
00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:20,960
You're off early, love.
240
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:29,960
RADIO CONTINUES
241
00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:28,960
Sorry.
242
00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,960
Morning.
Where is he?
243
00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:33,960
We don't know.
Martin?
244
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,960
It's not working.
I know it's not the other one.
245
00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,960
It's...
Are you Mrs Griffiths?
246
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,960
Can we have a word in private?
N...
247
00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,800
ALAN ON PHONE: Yes.
248
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:15,160
OK.
249
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,320
No, I...
250
00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:23,960
Hmm. Of course.
251
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:26,960
Thanks for letting me know.
252
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,960
He never regained consciousness.
253
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:42,160
God.
254
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,960
Gina's had to agree
to switch off life support.
255
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:50,320
Oh, Alan!
256
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:55,960
Blood on their hands now.
257
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,960
He had kids, Lee.
258
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:34,960
I know.
259
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,960
I expect he thought
he was doing them a favour.
260
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,800
Are you doing it, ever?
No, no.
261
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:51,960
No. Not really.
262
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:55,640
GASPS
263
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,960
Sorry. Sorry.
264
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,960
..think about it. I'm sorry.
265
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:11,960
Don't you...
don't you ever do that!
266
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:18,960
I can't have you feeling bad about
this for the rest of your life.
267
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,960
I'd have just walked away.
268
00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,960
I could have just shut the shop.
269
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:39,640
Just put us on a slow boat
to China. I could have done that.
270
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,800
And they'd have chased us all the
way to China for that money, Lee.
271
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:44,960
They were never going to let go.
272
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:49,960
Hey.
273
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:53,960
I know you did it for us.
274
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:00,960
I can't think straight.
275
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,960
I don't know what to do.
276
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,960
It's really very good of you
to come.
277
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,960
We're all so sorry for your loss.
278
00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:15,960
It was four days
before his notice ran out,
279
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,160
and he still hadn't told the staff
he'd been sacked.
280
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:21,960
Yes, it's very hard.
281
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:22,960
And his appeal
282
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,960
against being fined for the robbery,
it didn't come to anything.
283
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:27,960
They didn't decide one way
or the other.
284
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:29,960
Stressful.
285
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:31,960
Obviously.
286
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,320
I used to get so cross with him,
Angela.
287
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:37,960
I never did understand the problem,
288
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,960
and he couldn't explain it,
just every morning going to work
289
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:41,960
and saying he was desperate.
290
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,960
He was really desperate.
291
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,960
Every morning, the same words.
292
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:49,960
"I hate it."
293
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,960
"I can't bear it."
294
00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:01,960
For years.
295
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:07,480
Can you imagine?
296
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:15,960
We, er...
297
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,960
..we're going to do right by you,
Gina.
298
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,320
You can rely on us.
299
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:27,960
Yeah.
300
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,960
So, as we launch
this mediation scheme,
301
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:33,960
I can confirm our agreement
302
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,480
that Martin Griffiths' case
will be dealt with
303
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,800
as a priority by this working group.
304
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,000
Now, you've also received
a request from the family
305
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,960
that any approaches to Gina
should come through me.
306
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,960
Yes. Yes, we are happy
to agree to this, too.
307
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,960
Shall we declare this mediation
scheme up and running? Yes.
308
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,960
We have a long list
of cases to examine.
309
00:20:57,960 --> 00:20:59,960
So let's get started.
310
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,160
Right, then, start with Martin.
311
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,320
First things first...
312
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:08,960
Mr Griffiths.
313
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,960
'Profits falling, Mrs Vennells.
314
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:13,960
'Government subsidy on its way out.
315
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,960
'That means a reckoning
is on the horizon, does it not?'
316
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:18,640
'It does, absolutely.'
317
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:20,960
And the whole point
about this investment programme
318
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,960
is to make sure we have models
that are commercially sustainable.
319
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:26,960
'And my ambition would be...'
320
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,960
'..that within three to four
years' time....'
321
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:31,960
..the Post Office doesn't need
to take taxpayers' money
322
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,960
to support those post offices
that can be commercially profitable.
323
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,640
'So, Paula,
if you don't mind me asking,
324
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,960
'you're CEO of the Post Office...'
325
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:43,960
'..but you're also a priest
in the Church of England.
326
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:45,960
'How do you combine
those two roles?'
327
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,960
Very good, thank you.
328
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:50,960
Good to see you.
Thank you very much.
329
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,960
Just one thing.
This, erm, Horizon business.
330
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,960
Anything in it?
I beg your pardon?
331
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:02,320
Horizon.
Some lurid allegations out there.
332
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:05,960
Well, er...
333
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,320
Well, after two and a half years
of investigations,
334
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,960
it is now clear
that the Horizon system is robust
335
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:15,960
and works as it should.
336
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:17,960
Thank you.
337
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:25,960
'And God said to Solomon...'
338
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,960
"Ask for whatever
you want me to give you."
339
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,960
And Solomon said...
340
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,960
"Give your servant
a discerning heart
341
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:37,960
"to govern your people
342
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,960
"and to distinguish
between right and wrong."
343
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,960
The Lord was pleased
that Solomon had asked for this.
344
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,960
So God said to him...
345
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:50,960
"I will do what you have asked.
346
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,800
"I will give you
a wise and discerning heart."
347
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,160
I've been preparing for this
mediation hearing for months.
348
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,960
You will remember
that I asked to see this data,
349
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,960
the ARQ data from your system,
350
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,960
so that I could see
if it matched up to my data
351
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,320
from my till in my branch.
352
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:17,960
I kept everything, you see.
353
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,480
Now, you told me
354
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,960
I wouldn't be capable
of interpreting the ARQ data
355
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,960
because I was a silly woman
or something.
356
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,960
Anyway, may I direct you
to page seven?
357
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,960
Now, you will clearly see
a two-hour period
358
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,960
when money alterations
were being put in,
359
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,960
but not by me,
because I was serving customers.
360
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,960
There is no functionality
in the Horizon system
361
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:50,960
to remotely access branch terminals.
362
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,960
I just proved there is!
363
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,960
Mrs Stubbs,
we have to tell you now that,
364
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:58,960
at this mediation meeting,
365
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,160
we are under no legal
or moral obligation
366
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,960
to do anything whatsoever.
367
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,960
And we are working on the principle
of the contract,
368
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,960
which says that if you lose money,
you repay it.
369
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:14,960
Well...
370
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,320
I'm finished with this, actually.
371
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:18,960
I'm finished with you.
372
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:20,960
See, I think you're lying to me.
373
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,960
Mrs Stubbs, calm...
And I KNOW you're patronising me.
374
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,960
And I'm going to tell
the whole world what you are like.
375
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,960
May I remind you that you have
signed a non-disclosure agreement?
376
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,960
I'll talk to anyone who will listen,
I'll stand up with all my papers,
377
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,960
and I will prove
you lied about this.
378
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,480
Mrs Stubbs, this will have
legal ramifications... Oh!
379
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,320
You want to take me to court?
I couldn't give a toss!
380
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,640
'The way they treat people...
381
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:56,960
'They are despicable!
382
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,960
'I have never, ever been made
to feel like this...'
383
00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:01,960
'..in my entire life.
384
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,320
Pam? Pam?
385
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:05,960
You're... You're breaking up.
AUDIO CRACKLES
386
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,960
I mean, are they lying
or... or just stupid?
387
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:12,160
Hello?
388
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,160
For a while there,
right at the start of mediation...
389
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,960
..you got close to trusting them,
didn't you?
390
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,960
Maybe...
391
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,960
despite every awful story
they've heard,
392
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,480
despite all the work we've done,
393
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:38,960
they still don't get it.
394
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,960
They actually believe they're right.
395
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:45,960
I understand your impatience,
of course I do.
396
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:47,480
But, Alan, really?
397
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,960
Four closely typed
pages of complaint?
398
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,960
"Finding the truth is the last thing
they're interested in"?
399
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,960
Well, that's been our experience
of their investigation.
400
00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:59,960
Well, will you at least acknowledge
401
00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:00,960
that, before writing to
the minister,
402
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,800
it might possibly have been useful
to raise your concerns with Paula?
403
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,160
Martin Griffiths is dead.
404
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:12,320
Yes, I know.
405
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,960
I, too, am concerned
about the length of time
406
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,960
mediation is taking,
but Paula is very exercised.
407
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:25,480
I'm sorry, James, but, ha, these
mediation hearings are a joke.
408
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,320
Well, let's just ask Paula
about that, shall we?
409
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,960
'No, we have not dragged our feet.'
410
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,960
I've had 22 people working on this,
full-time, for more than a year.
411
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,960
But not a single case finalised.
412
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:43,960
And now I am told
that people are walking out
413
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:44,960
of their mediation meetings.
414
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,960
Yes, it has taken longer
than we would've liked.
415
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:50,960
As chief executive
of the Post Office,
416
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,480
I could not put this scheme in place
and not do it properly.
417
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,640
The system... and the people
who work in our branches
418
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:58,960
are too important for that.
419
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,960
Well, at least we can agree
on that one.
420
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,960
Let's be clear,
we still have allegations here
421
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:06,480
of miscarriage of justice.
422
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:09,960
Our lawyers advise the correct route
423
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,960
for challenges
to criminal prosecutions
424
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,960
is via the Criminal Cases
Review Commission...
425
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:16,960
..to the Appeal Court.
426
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,960
You promised me personally
427
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:21,960
that my constituent, Jo Hamilton,
428
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,960
whom I believe was wrongly convicted
and with whom all of this started,
429
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:27,960
would be eligible for mediation.
430
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,960
Our lawyers advise
that no mediation scheme
431
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,960
has the power to overturn
a criminal conviction.
432
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:35,160
Paula, this is quite wrong.
433
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:38,960
You have broken your word to me.
434
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,320
And you have broken your word
to the subpostmasters.
435
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,960
You have broken your word
to Parliament.
436
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:54,960
'Post Office has broken its word
437
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,480
'to Members of Parliament
in so many different respects.
438
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,160
'It may, of course, be that
the trade of subpostmastering
439
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,960
'was infiltrated
by a sudden rash of criminals.
440
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:08,960
'I have met a lot of these people,
and I personally do not believe it.
441
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,960
'Frankly, I no longer trust
the Post Office
442
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,960
'and will not be negotiating
with it further.
443
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,800
'It has spent public money
on a mediation scheme
444
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,960
'that it has set out to sabotage.'
445
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,960
He says he can get some interest
from the select committee.
446
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:25,960
Oh, not another talking shop.
447
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,960
Personally,
I'm looking forward to it.
448
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,640
Probably more than Paula.
449
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,960
Is it possible to
access the system remotely or not?
450
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:37,960
I hope it is
that we know it is not possible,
451
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,960
and that we're able to explain
why that is.
452
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,480
I need to be able to say,
"No, it is not possible,
453
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,160
"and we're sure of this
because of X, X, X."
454
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:47,960
I need the facts.
455
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:54,960
That's Paula.
456
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:56,960
She looks very smart.
457
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:58,960
Very corporate.
458
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:02,960
Who's the other one?
459
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:04,960
Angela van den Bogerd.
460
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,960
The gruesome twosome.
461
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,960
Don't they have any blokes
at the Post Office?
462
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,960
'I have spent a lot
of the past 12 months...'
463
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:16,320
Yes! Come on, Bob.
464
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,960
..requesting access to documents
that have been challenged.
465
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:24,960
One issue we're looking into relates
to Fujitsu's office in Bracknell.
466
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,960
Now, we first requested
documents relating to that
467
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,480
almost two years ago,
468
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,960
and we have still not been provided
with those documents.
469
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,640
Erm, may I respond?
470
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,960
We did provide
a year's worth of emails
471
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:40,960
that Second Sight requested.
472
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,800
Unfortunately,
those emails that were provided
473
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:44,960
were for the wrong year.
474
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,960
That seems to me an amazing error.
475
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:50,960
Are there any other issues?
476
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:52,960
Probably most important
would be full access
477
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,960
to the legal and prosecution files
held by the Post Office.
478
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:58,960
Paula, why don't you
make those files available?
479
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:00,960
What's the problem?
480
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,320
No, no.
481
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:05,960
Answer my question.
482
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,800
Er, it is the first time,
personally, that I've heard that.
483
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:11,960
I'm happy to go away
and have a look.
484
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,960
They've been told that
under no circumstances
485
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:16,960
could they be given those files.
486
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:17,960
Is that right or wrong?
487
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,960
I... I do not recall that, no.
488
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,960
And you can piss right off.
489
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,960
That sounds to me like a shambles.
490
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:28,960
We are hearing from Bob
491
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:30,960
that your organisation
has been obstructive
492
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:32,480
to his independent work.
493
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,320
Is that right or wrong?
494
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,960
We have provided,
for every single case,
495
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,640
detailed, thorough,
independent investigation.
496
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:41,960
Let me stop you there.
We've just heard from Bob,
497
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,960
who is independent,
that you have not.
498
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:46,960
You are the head
of the organisation.
499
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,960
Will you provide the information,
yes or no?
500
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,960
This is the first time that I have
been asked for this information.
501
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,000
Yes or no?
502
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,960
Will you provide it? Yes or no?
503
00:30:57,960 --> 00:30:59,960
'Give me a simple answer.'
Yes or no?
504
00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:01,960
'I am not prepared, on behalf
of the Post Office to give...'
505
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,960
I think I've got my answer.
You won't provide it.
506
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,640
No, you have not got your answer.
You have not heard a yes or no.
507
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,800
I am simply saying, at the moment,
508
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,960
I am not able to answer
your question.
509
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:14,960
Honestly,
I find it quite astonishing
510
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:16,960
that you don't seem to know anything
511
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,960
about an issue that is so
politically and socially sensitive.
512
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,640
I know a huge amount about this.
I know the really important things.
513
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,640
You are the chief executive,
so the buck stops with you.
514
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:27,960
It does stop with me.
515
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,320
I am not denying at all
that there are problems.
516
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:31,480
Of course there are.
517
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,960
There are problems
in any organisation.
518
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,960
But this is about the reputation
of the Post Office.
519
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:38,960
'What?!'
520
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,960
No, it's not! It's about
people's lives, you moron.
521
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:52,480
Slaughtered her.
522
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,160
Paula's face.
She had no idea what just happened.
523
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,000
Gina Griffiths has pulled out
of the mediation scheme.
524
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,800
Well, that can't be right.
Alan would've known that.
525
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,960
Unless they went to her
behind our backs.
526
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,480
What kind of people go back
on a promise to a grieving widow?
527
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,960
It's not a huge amount of money.
528
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,960
Not, you know, life-changing.
529
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,160
And in return,
you had to pull out of mediation.
530
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,960
I've got nothing coming in, Alan.
531
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,160
I was gonna have to sell the house
just to live.
532
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,960
I imagine they also got you to sign
a non-disclosure agreement,
533
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,640
promising not to talk to anyone
about Martin's case.
534
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,800
I shouldn't even be speaking to you.
535
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,320
They rang up, Alan.
They said it was a one-day offer.
536
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,960
If I didn't say yes
by the end of the day, then...
537
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:45,960
I'm sorry.
538
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,960
It's all right, really.
539
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:50,960
I understand.
540
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:53,320
Well...
CHUCKLES
541
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:55,960
I don't blame you.
542
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,960
When Angela came to see me...
543
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:02,960
Angela Van den Bogerd came here?
544
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,960
She was nice... I thought. Kind.
545
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,960
Now I don't know about any of them.
I think you just...
546
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,960
We just... cling to a notion,
don't we?
547
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,960
That people can't be that bad.
548
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:30,960
PHONE RINGS
549
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,960
'Alan?'
550
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:40,960
Hello, Angela.
551
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,960
Oh, good news.
552
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:45,320
No more reports for Bob to write.
553
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,960
No more need for you
to trail down to London.
554
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:48,960
No more working group meetings.
555
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,960
'A new way forward.'
556
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:53,960
You're closing down
the mediation scheme?
557
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,800
No, no, no. No, no... no.
558
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,960
Not... Not closing it down.
We're... simplifying it.
559
00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:02,800
'We're taking it in-house.
560
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,960
'We'll decide each case
individually.'
561
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:06,960
Closing it down.
562
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,960
After 18 months,
it's in everyone's interest
563
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,960
to speed things along now,
don't you think?
564
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,960
'Oh.'
565
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:20,960
Right.
566
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:23,960
Well, good to talk.
567
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:24,960
'Bye, Alan.'
568
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:26,960
Goodbye, Angela.
569
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:43,960
Oh, you sods.
570
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:46,960
Suzanne?
571
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,960
PHONE RINGS
572
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:58,800
I'm calling to tell you
573
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,960
that I'm not allowed
to talk to you any more.
574
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,960
Sacked again, eh? That was quick.
575
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:06,960
Well, I considered pointing out
that they're not allowed
576
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,960
to just kick you and me
off the working group.
577
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,960
Well, they're not allowed
to go around ruining people's lives
578
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:14,960
or breaking their promises.
579
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,960
But since when
did that ever stop them?
580
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:19,960
'They are not just dropping us,
Alan.
581
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,960
'They're rubbing our noses in it.'
582
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:27,000
They're making us destroy or return
every single document they gave us.
583
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:32,160
The whole investigation.
Three years' work up in smoke.
584
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:34,960
'I'm so sorry, Alan.'
585
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:40,960
Nice knowing you, Bob.
586
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,480
Yeah. Goodbye, Alan.
587
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:46,960
Cheers.
588
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:54,960
Love?
589
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,800
Oh, there you are.
590
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,960
They're going ahead -
without me, without Bob,
591
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,000
without anyone fighting.
our members' corner.
592
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,960
Did look at paint charts, but...
593
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,960
in the end,
I think I just want white.
594
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:21,320
I'll get it done this weekend,
erm... help take my mind off it.
595
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:22,960
You what?
596
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,480
Yeah, so, erm...
597
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:32,960
..test came back positive.
598
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:42,480
Hardly time to catch a cold,
is there? Let alone get cancer.
599
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,800
You'll outlive me.
600
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:56,000
Yeah.
601
00:36:58,960 --> 00:36:59,960
They'll operate.
602
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:02,960
It'll be fine.
603
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,320
I'll live. I want to live.
604
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,640
I have to.
605
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,160
See some bastards go to prison.
606
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,320
SHE SNIFFS,
HE CHUCKLES
607
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:19,960
I'll put the kettle on.
608
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,640
INDISTINCT CHATTER
609
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,960
Mm. Still here, then?
610
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:54,960
Tough old bird.
611
00:37:57,960 --> 00:37:59,960
I've, er...
612
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,960
Oh, God.
613
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:05,960
No, no.
614
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,960
If we can't find a lawyer
by, I don't know, December...
615
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,960
..maybe it's time to call it a day.
616
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:22,160
You once said to me,
617
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,800
"If I ever start talking
about giving up..."
618
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:25,960
That was then.
619
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,960
Don't you dare give up
on account of me, Alan.
620
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,800
Well, I'm not.
It's just, you know...
621
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,960
..12 years is long enough
622
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,480
to keep banging my head
against a brick wall.
623
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,960
Don't you dare!
624
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:45,960
Cos that would mean
the last 12 years of my life
625
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:47,960
meant nothing, too.
626
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:51,160
OK.
627
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,960
New plan, then.
628
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,960
Oh, well, maybe you could've
fought me a bit harder there.
629
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,960
What about if we all apply,
all of us,
630
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,480
to see everything
the Post Office has got on us?
631
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:08,960
Horizon logs, investigation reports,
accounts, all of it.
632
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,960
And, er...
And then, if we can see them,
633
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:14,480
I think we've got
a much better chance...
634
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,640
SPEECH FADES OUT
635
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:20,960
You have a lovely day.
636
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,320
And don't dawdle
when Mummy comes to pick you up.
637
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,640
Are you gonna come in and help?
638
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:28,960
No, darling, not today.
639
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,800
Bye-bye, Joshua.
640
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:34,960
Granny Jo loves you.
641
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:38,000
Bye-bye.
642
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,960
You were only gonna be
helping them make paper hats.
643
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,960
Yeah, it's not the school's fault.
644
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:47,960
They can't let me be alone
with the children
645
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:49,960
when they know
I've got a criminal record.
646
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:52,960
Oh, God.
647
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,480
Mum, will you stop it?
648
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,640
TV PLAYING
649
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,960
SHE GRUNTS
650
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:06,960
SHE SIGHS
651
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,960
Yeah.
652
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,960
It's fine. Love a toast-based meal.
653
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,960
Are you all right?
654
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,960
Yeah.
655
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,960
Never was any good to me, was it,
all that defective equipment?
656
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:32,960
Never did manage to pop
any babies out of it.
657
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,960
And, you know...
when you think about
658
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,960
the life we ended up having...
659
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,960
maybe it's OK
the children never came along.
660
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:57,960
I'm here, sorry.
661
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,960
Oh, I think this might be
what I've been waiting for.
662
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,960
Exciting.
Signature there, please.
663
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:08,960
Cheers. 'Do they think
we're idiots or what?
664
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,960
'146 pages blacked out.
It's ridiculous.'
665
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:17,960
Can you make any sense
of exactly what's been redacted?
666
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:19,160
No, I can't tell, it's all black.
667
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:20,960
But I'll tell you
what's definitely not there.
668
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,000
The memo from my investigator.
669
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,960
The one where he admitted
there's no evidence against me.
670
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,480
'The one that proves
it's a miscarriage of justice.'
671
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:30,960
Ridiculous.
672
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,960
'The subpostmasters
applied to see this information,
673
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:36,480
'as is their right,
674
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,960
'and the Post Office think
they can just refuse to share it.
675
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:40,960
'It's simply inexplicable.'
676
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:42,960
What the Post Office is saying
is this.
677
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,800
That there have been
about half a million users
678
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:46,960
of the Horizon system
679
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,960
since it was introduced in 2001,
involved in Post Office business,
680
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,960
and that only 150 people
681
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:55,960
have applied to the mediation scheme
682
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,960
for events
spanning more than a decade.
683
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,640
The Post Office is saying
684
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,960
that the idea that there is
widespread unfairness
685
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:05,960
is simply not true.
686
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:07,480
Well, I would disagree.
687
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,480
These are people who have been
pillars of the community,
688
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,960
who've had their reputations
dragged through the mud,
689
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,640
who... who've been sent to prison,
some of them,
690
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,320
and I understand that at least one
has committed suicide.
691
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:21,960
And, Mrs Hamilton...
692
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,960
you believe that you have done
nothing wrong?
693
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,960
I have done nothing wrong.
694
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,320
'I did not take a penny
from the Post Office,
695
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,960
'but unfortunately,
the contract which runs the...'
696
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,960
Excuse me, could you just
turn the radio up? Thanks.
697
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,800
'..many of us in the Justice
For Subpostmasters Alliance
698
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:42,960
'didn't receive a copy of,
says quite clearly
699
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,000
'the postmaster is contractually
responsible for the losses.'
700
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:47,160
That's great.
701
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,960
'We did ask the Post office
for an interview.
702
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,960
'No-one was available.'
703
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:56,480
ALAN: 'Alan Bates?'
704
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,960
'Hi, Alan. My name's James Hartley.
I'm a solicitor.
705
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:02,960
'Yeah, I just heard
the Radio 4 piece.
706
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,960
'I... I think I can help.'
707
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,640
'I always say to lawyers,
708
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:10,960
'we're fighting a war
against an enemy
709
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:12,960
'owned by the British government,
710
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,960
'which means they have mighty forces
711
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,960
'and bottomless pockets
funded by the taxpayer.'
712
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,960
While we're just...
skint little people.
713
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:23,960
JAMES CHUCKLES
714
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,960
Well, I specialise in contract law,
715
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,960
and this contract is...
716
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,960
114 pages of complete rubbish.
717
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,960
It's unfair.
718
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:38,960
It's out of date.
719
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,960
It even says you're not allowed
to gamble on the premises.
720
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,960
Yeah, when we've got
lottery terminals, yeah.
721
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:49,960
But, you know, we all signed it,
or some version of it, so...
722
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:50,960
Well, yes, but...
723
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:55,960
a contract that is not properly
understood by both parties
724
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,960
is not necessarily legally binding.
725
00:43:58,960 --> 00:43:59,960
OK.
726
00:43:59,960 --> 00:44:04,000
Look, I think it may be possible
to raise the money
727
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:05,960
to fight them in court.
728
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,960
There are specialist funders
729
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:13,960
who are willing to take the risk,
but only if there are enough of you.
730
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,960
We had 130 applicants
to the mediation scheme
731
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:19,160
before the Post office destroyed it.
732
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,800
Mm.
733
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:25,960
Well, how many would you need?
734
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,320
At least 500.
735
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,960
Well... I can do that.
736
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,960
# Makin' me feel
Like I want too much
737
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,960
# Livin' with you
Is just putting me through it
738
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:50,960
# All of the time... #
739
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:52,960
Hello?
740
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:55,640
'Is that Alan Bates?'
741
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:57,960
Yeah. Who's this?
742
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,960
'I worked at Fujitsu
in technical support.
743
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:03,960
'I was gonna call you...'
744
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:05,960
'..but I wanted to make sure you...'
745
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,960
Hang on, hang on.
You're breaking up.
746
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:10,960
I'm going to pull over.
747
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:20,960
Hello?
748
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:37,960
PHONE RINGS
Hello?
749
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:41,320
Sorry, I got cut off.
750
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,000
I... I lost you.
751
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,160
I don't want anyone knowing
I'm talking to you.
752
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,960
Of course. I understand.
753
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,960
But they're lying. That's the point.
754
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,480
They say there's no remote access
to branch accounts,
755
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:57,960
but there was a whole room
756
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:00,960
full of us inside Fujitsu
working overnights,
757
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,640
doing thousands of corrections
758
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,960
on Horizon
while the postmasters slept.
759
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,960
Nobody's gonna admit it, obviously.
760
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:10,960
Are you still there?
761
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:15,960
Yes! Sorry.
Er, just getting comfortable.
762
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:17,960
Please, go on.
763
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:19,960
'We were just constantly
firefighting.
764
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,960
'Coding errors, bugs,
data corruption.
765
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:24,960
'Horizon was much worse
than I thought.
766
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,960
'It was shocking.
It needed scrapping, really.
767
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,960
'It was hard-coded and hard-designed
for a completely...'
768
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:37,960
# God knows what is hiding
In those weak and drunken hearts
769
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,960
# Guess he kissed the girls
And made them cry
770
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,960
# Those hard faced queens
Of misadventure
771
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:51,960
# People help the people
772
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,960
# And if you're homesick
773
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,960
# Give me your hand
And I'll hold it. #
774
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