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1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,960
The computer system Post Office
spent an arm and a leg on is faulty.
2
00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,960
Oh, my God, it's just doubled
right in front of my eyes.
3
00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:09,960
I haven't got that money.
4
00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:11,960
The Horizon system
was working properly.
5
00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:14,960
The losses must have been caused
by Mr Castleton's own error.
6
00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,960
How many other subpostmasters
have you found?
7
00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:19,960
Six. Who will go on the record?
8
00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:23,160
I'm thinking set up a meeting,
send out invitations,
9
00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:24,800
see if anyone turns up.
10
00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,960
The Post Office told us
you're the only one.
11
00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:29,160
That was a lie.
12
00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:31,800
From this moment forwards,
13
00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:36,800
none of us
will be the only one ever again.
14
00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,320
I just think you've made a mistake,
Sam.
15
00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,160
I know, but they said if I pleaded
guilty, I could have the shop back.
16
00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,960
How is that ever gonna work?
17
00:01:04,960 --> 00:01:07,000
You'll be a convicted criminal.
18
00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:14,960
Look, I'm your husband, and I have
to read about this in the newspaper.
19
00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:16,000
Was on my own in the interview.
20
00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,320
I thought I was doing
the right thing.
21
00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:21,800
Jas, please.
You're an innocent woman.
22
00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:23,960
You should've pleaded not guilty
like we agreed.
23
00:01:23,960 --> 00:01:26,960
Come on. We're gonna be late.
24
00:01:26,960 --> 00:01:28,960
They'll have started without us.
25
00:01:45,960 --> 00:01:48,800
It was unbelievable.
26
00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,480
The lowest day of my life.
27
00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:53,960
Uh, hi.
28
00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,960
Uh... sorry we're late.
29
00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,800
Um, got a bit lost. Sorry.
30
00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:01,960
Are you... Is this...?
31
00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,480
We're all former subpostmasters.
Come in. It's OK.
32
00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,480
Please, uh... find a seat.
33
00:02:10,640 --> 00:02:12,960
Uh, I'm Jaz Singh.
34
00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,160
I'm Sam, from Walsall.
Yeah, Walsall.
35
00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,800
Well, we're all sharing our stories,
er...
36
00:02:21,640 --> 00:02:24,960
Go on. Go on.
37
00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,960
I had no problems till they sent us
a new Horizon PIN pad.
38
00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:36,800
They just won't have it that there's
something wrong with the thing.
39
00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:37,960
They say I'm piggybacking -
40
00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,000
going into the till
to pay out a pension with one hand,
41
00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:41,960
and paying myself with the other.
42
00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:46,960
I'm guessing they also said you were
the only ones having these problems.
43
00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:48,000
And I'm guessing they said the same
44
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,960
to everyone else in this room,
right?
45
00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:51,960
I'm such a fool, I believed them.
46
00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:53,960
I believed them when they said,
47
00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:55,960
"Just confess
you took that £5,000, Sam,
48
00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:57,960
"and you'll be back in your shop
tomorrow."
49
00:02:57,960 --> 00:02:58,960
You shouldn't have done that.
50
00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,960
It was the new PIN pad.
It wasn't your fault.
51
00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:03,960
It was.... It wasn't her fault.
52
00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,960
Actually, I pleaded guilty too.
53
00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:08,960
So did I.
54
00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,960
You did? I can't believe it.
55
00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,320
I-I-I thought we were on our own,
you know.
56
00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:17,960
Not any more.
57
00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,000
I'm a mother.
I don't want to go to prison.
58
00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,960
Look. We're changing your plea, OK?
59
00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:24,960
Not guilty.
60
00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,960
And this time,
I'm coming to court with you.
61
00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:29,960
Hey.
62
00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,960
Now, if you're thinking of going
to court, just be careful.
63
00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:39,800
Well, there are people here
who've done time.
64
00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,960
We've all lost our businesses
and our savings.
65
00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:49,000
The question is,
what are we going to do about it?
66
00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:54,960
MPs, neither use nor ornament.
67
00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:55,960
Stop it.
68
00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,800
Be nice. At least he's taken
the trouble to turn up.
69
00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:05,960
Um... Mrs Hamilton?
70
00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:06,960
James Arbuthnot.
71
00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:08,960
Thank you for coming.
72
00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:10,640
My pleasure.
73
00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:11,960
Jo's mum.
Hello.
74
00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:15,640
So, one way or another,
75
00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:18,000
we're all fighting back
every way we can.
76
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,960
We're even thinking
about suing the Post Office.
77
00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:22,960
I'd like to see you try,
with no money.
78
00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,960
Well, good job talking to your MP
costs absolutely nothing.
79
00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:28,960
Is this homemade?
It looks delicious.
80
00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:30,960
Thank you, I will.
81
00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,800
We thought maybe you could talk
to the government or something.
82
00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,480
Yes, indeed.
83
00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,960
There are two other cases
in my constituency alone.
84
00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:41,960
Wow. Really?
85
00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:42,960
It's very odd, isn't it?
86
00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,960
I mean, the Post Office
is a national institution.
87
00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,960
You think you could trust them
to listen to their own people.
88
00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:51,960
Personally, Mr Arbuthnot...
James, please.
89
00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,960
..I wouldn't trust them
as far as I could throw them.
90
00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,960
I'm going to ask
around the House,
91
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,960
see how many members
are hearing similar stories,
92
00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,960
make an approach to Post Office
management at the highest level.
93
00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,960
I think I feel a campaign coming on.
94
00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:18,960
Oh, that's lovely.
95
00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:23,320
And so my client, Mrs Kaur,
96
00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,960
seeks permission to change her plea
to not guilty.
97
00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:28,960
This is because she had
no solicitor with her
98
00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,320
during her interview under caution,
99
00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,960
and because there is also
a technical issue
100
00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,960
which you may consider requires
expert evidence
101
00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,960
concerning a PIN pad.
102
00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:40,960
I can't see anything here.
103
00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,960
Her PIN pad was faulty.
Quiet, please.
104
00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,960
Very well, Mrs Kaur,
I vacate your plea.
105
00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:50,960
How do you now plead?
106
00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:55,960
Not guilty.
107
00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,480
Is that him?
The so-called trade unionist.
108
00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:13,960
He's got a bloody nerve.
109
00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:15,480
Federation man.
110
00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:17,960
A federation man
who calls out of nowhere.
111
00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:20,960
How do we know we can trust him?
112
00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:24,960
We don't.
113
00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,640
Hi, Alan.
114
00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:33,960
Yeah.
115
00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:34,960
Never even heard of Fenny Compton.
116
00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:36,960
MURMURING
117
00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,960
All right, everyone,
shall we make a start?
118
00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,000
Shall we make a start? Thanks.
119
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,960
Right.
120
00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,480
So, welcome to the second meeting
121
00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,640
of the Justice For Subpostmasters
Alliance.
122
00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,960
Now, before we get on
to our campaign update,
123
00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,960
we have a guest
who'd like permission to speak.
124
00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,960
This is Michael Rudkin, friends,
125
00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,960
an executive officer of the National
Federation For Subpostmasters.
126
00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:14,160
DISGRUNTLED MURMURING
127
00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:15,960
Not any more.
128
00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:17,960
The federation sent me back
my membership fee,
129
00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:19,480
said they wouldn't represent me.
130
00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,960
They told me to get
a good criminal lawyer.
131
00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:23,640
And that was the last I heard
of them.
132
00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:27,800
My so-called union has been in bed
with the Post Office for years.
133
00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:28,960
I can either leave
by the way I came in
134
00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:30,960
or I can tell you my story.
135
00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:32,960
Up to you, pal.
136
00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,160
You think you're the little guys,
137
00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,960
facing up to one powerful enemy?
You're wrong.
138
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,960
Post Office don't make
the computers, do they?
139
00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,960
No, they don't... design the kit.
140
00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,960
They don't write the software,
they don't run the network.
141
00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:53,960
That's Fujitsu.
142
00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,960
Multinational corporation.
Headquarters in Bracknell.
143
00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:02,960
I've been there.
I've seen what they can do.
144
00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,960
Two years ago, I got myself
an invitation to Fujitsu
145
00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,960
to sort out the issue with
the foreign exchange stock control
146
00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:09,960
that we were all
having problems with.
147
00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:12,960
Er, Michael Rudkin,
to see George Delph.
148
00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:15,960
Thanks, mate.
149
00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,800
'19th of August 2008.'
150
00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,960
Cheers. Thanks, mate.
Mr Rudkin.
151
00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:26,320
George Delph, hi.
152
00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:28,960
Hi. Good to meet you.
And you.
153
00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,000
Welcome to Fujitsu.
Cheers.
154
00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:32,960
If you'd like to follow me.
155
00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,960
Horizon is the largest IT system
in Europe.
156
00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,960
We're very proud of that.
Outside the military, that is.
157
00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,800
Cost a billion pounds.
158
00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,960
We've rolled out 40,000 terminals
to your members.
159
00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,960
So this accounts for all
the James Bond stuff, does it?
160
00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,000
'All I'm expecting is he'll give me
a bit of training I can pass on.'
161
00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,960
All right.
State-of-the-art everything.
162
00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,000
That must be why a lot of my members
have been complaining
163
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,960
about your rubbish
foreign exchange stock control.
164
00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,320
We can help.
165
00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:11,960
A lot of my members
been losing money.
166
00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,960
Oh, the bottom line!
Me included.
167
00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:18,960
Meet your friendly
covert operations team.
168
00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:25,960
I get in there, and this guy sits
me down at a Horizon terminal.
169
00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,960
So, easiest way to help
is if I just show you
170
00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,960
how to adjust your stock control
manually.
171
00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,640
And I said to him, "Is this live?"
172
00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:37,960
Sure. Look at the clock.
173
00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,960
So, if I start by adjusting this
from sterling to euros.
174
00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:45,960
'And I said to him...'
175
00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,960
You're inside
some subpostmaster's Horizon,
176
00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:50,960
and he doesn't know.
177
00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:52,960
He said, "yeah".
178
00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:55,960
"Yeah, I am."
179
00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,960
How else am I gonna show you
how to do this?
180
00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,160
'And then,
right in front of my eyes,
181
00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,960
'he starts changing
the subpostmaster's figures.'
182
00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:07,960
Excuse me.
183
00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,960
I've been telling my members
for years
184
00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,640
no-one else has access
to their branch accounts.
185
00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:16,160
Uh, OK. Well, um...
186
00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,960
I'd better put the figures
back the way they were, then,
187
00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:19,960
or they won't balance tonight.
188
00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,640
'Ladies and gentlemen,
you know what this means.'
189
00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:37,960
It means they can sneak in
behind your back,
190
00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,960
change your figures,
bugger off and leave with no trace.
191
00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:45,960
It's remote access.
192
00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:47,960
Well, makes sense.
193
00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:49,960
It's how they send updates
and bug-fixes.
194
00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:51,960
No, no. No, the help line.
They said that...
195
00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:53,480
They said that was impossible.
196
00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:55,960
They said the branch accounts
were totally secure.
197
00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:56,960
That's what they told me.
198
00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:57,960
They lied.
199
00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:01,960
JO: But if they're getting
into our accounts
200
00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:03,960
and messing about in there...
201
00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:05,960
Then it's a bit rich
for them to claim
202
00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:07,960
that we have 100% responsibility
when money goes missing.
203
00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:09,960
Exactly.
MURMURS OF AGREEMENT
204
00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,960
So, I drive home from Fujitsu.
205
00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,960
The next morning, I wake up,
206
00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,960
and my wife is stood
at the foot of our bed...
207
00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,960
and there's an auditor beside her.
208
00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:35,960
"Your Post Office is now
£44,000 in deficit," says he.
209
00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:37,320
MURMURING
210
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,960
Coincidence?
211
00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:42,960
Revenge.
212
00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,320
My wife ran the Post Office when
I was away on federation business.
213
00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,960
So, although I was
the subpostmaster...
214
00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:52,960
..my poor wife...
215
00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:56,960
..is now a convicted criminal.
216
00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:57,960
MURMURING AND GASPS
217
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:02,480
You're welcome.
218
00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:11,960
JO: Wait.
219
00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,960
Mr Rudkin, thank you.
220
00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:18,320
Thank you.
221
00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,960
Yeah, it won't do any good.
222
00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,160
AGITATED MURMURS
223
00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:37,640
So they punished him.
224
00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,960
They punished him
for standing up to 'em.
225
00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:44,960
It's what they did to me.
226
00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:46,960
They knew I had to fight them,
227
00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:48,960
but they knew
I didn't stand a chance.
228
00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:50,960
They just did it
to teach me a lesson,
229
00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,640
to teach everyone
in this room a lesson.
230
00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,960
That's what we're up against.
THAT is what we're up against.
231
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,160
The Post Office
are still investigating,
232
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,960
so it's going to take
a bit longer than we thought
233
00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,960
as it's now 36 charges.
234
00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:17,960
How many?
36 charges.
235
00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,160
No, no, no, that's totally wrong.
236
00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:21,960
I've got the indictment right here,
Jas.
237
00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:23,960
It's definitely now 36 charges.
238
00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,960
But... it was 19.
239
00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,960
Where have all these new ones
come from?
240
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,960
Sam?
I don't know, I don't remember.
241
00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,960
And what about this - her shortfall?
242
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,960
It's now 11,000.
That's more than doubled.
243
00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,960
You're selling everyone stamps
with a picture of the Queen on them.
244
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:44,960
We love the Queen, don't we?
245
00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:48,960
Is she all right?
Yeah, yeah. Just...
246
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,480
All these delays,
they're doing both our heads in.
247
00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,960
Jas, I think we should get
a medical report.
248
00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,160
When cases go on and on like this,
it can be hard for the defendant.
249
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:05,000
She's fine.
250
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,800
I'll just go and see
if they're ready for us.
251
00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,320
Everyone's eyes are on me.
252
00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:28,960
It's OK.
253
00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,160
PHONE RINGS
254
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:45,960
Sam, can you get the phone?
255
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:49,960
Hello?
256
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:51,960
Oh, it's Jo.
257
00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,960
Gosh, you had me worried there.
I'm just checking in on you.
258
00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:57,960
'Are you OK?'
259
00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,480
I'm up and down.
260
00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:02,960
Are you getting out at all?
261
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:05,960
Oh, I can't go out.
262
00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,960
Not to the gurdwara,
not even to the supermarket.
263
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,000
I see people I know, and sometimes,
they look surprised to see me,
264
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:14,960
and I wonder...
265
00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:17,960
..do they think
I've gone to prison already?
266
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:22,960
Oh, Sam... if I just had the money
for a stupid train ticket.
267
00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,960
I wouldn't be much fun for you, Jo.
268
00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,800
Oh, God!
269
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:29,960
Sam, what is it?
270
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:31,960
It's OK, it's OK.
I'm all right, Jo.
271
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,960
It's just the postman.
272
00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,960
Every time the door goes...
273
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,160
I think it's them, come to get me.
274
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,800
Oh.
275
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:48,960
'Oh, you poor thing.'
276
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,480
Yeah, I'd no idea this
was happening to other people.
277
00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:57,960
I thought I was the only one.
278
00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,960
There were nights I was just
sobbing, didn't know what to do,
279
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:02,960
how to get out of this mess.
280
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:04,960
It sounds like
it was very traumatic for you.
281
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:06,960
Well, it's not just me
that it's traumatic for.
282
00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,800
'I just think that the Post Office
needs to investigate this.
283
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:12,960
'There's just got
to be something else going on,
284
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,960
'cos it can't be happening
to this many people.'
285
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,960
Jo was great.
286
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:19,960
She's a natural.
287
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:21,960
Yeah, but who's listening?
288
00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,160
How concerned are you about these
allegations against the Post Office?
289
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,960
'I'm very concerned about this.
290
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:29,960
'Cases seem to be cropping up
all over the country.'
291
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:31,960
And who knew
a Tory MP could be so nice?
292
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,960
'The Post Office have been,
I think, pretty hard-nosed
293
00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:36,800
'in the way they've taken
the cases to court.'
294
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,960
Trouble is,
nobody watches local news.
295
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,960
'And I think their bosses need
to think again
296
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:44,480
'and be more sympathetic.'
297
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:12,320
PAULA VENNELLS: Be ready.
298
00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:17,960
'There are a tiny number
of ex-subpostmasters
299
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:19,960
'who appear to be making
distinct allegations
300
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,960
'with respect to the operation
of the Horizon system.'
301
00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:24,960
But in two of the cases,
302
00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,960
the individuals have in the past
pleaded guilty to false accounting.
303
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,160
I have written back
to the Member of Parliament,
304
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,960
making clear
that Post Office Limited
305
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,960
does not accept
any of the allegations
306
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:38,960
that are being made
307
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:40,960
and will robustly
defend its position
308
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,000
if any civil action is mounted
against it.
309
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:48,800
ALAN: Freedom of information.
310
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:49,960
Just when you think
you've cracked it,
311
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,960
they come up with a new trick
to keep us in the dark.
312
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:53,960
Listen to this.
313
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:55,960
You're only allowed a question,
314
00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:57,960
to ask a question,
315
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,960
that will take one person
less than 18 hours to research.
316
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:03,960
I mean, what?
317
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:07,960
What do you think?
318
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:09,640
Hey.
319
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:13,960
Trying to have a life here, Alan.
320
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:24,960
I...
321
00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:32,960
I just want to be able to...
take you on holiday again, Suzanne.
322
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,960
A proper holiday abroad.
323
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:38,960
Not just... camping.
324
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:45,960
And still half of Snowdonia
waiting to be climbed.
325
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:53,960
A, the Post Office has taken
all our money.
326
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,960
B, my knees are way too old
for Snowdon now.
327
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,160
And, C, you can't possibly
go on holiday.
328
00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,960
You're too busy campaigning,
morning, noon and night.
329
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,160
This is all taking too long.
330
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:16,960
'My next guest is famous
for pranking the nation
331
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,960
'with hidden camera comedy shows
like Trigger Happy...'
332
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:28,160
FRONT DOOR OPENS
333
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,960
Hiya. You OK? Sorry I'm late.
334
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:34,960
SHE GASPS
335
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:36,960
SHE SHUDDERS
336
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,640
Got held up, so...
337
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:44,960
It's OK.
Sam.
338
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,960
Sammy, what...? What have you...?
339
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:50,480
Sam!
340
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:51,960
It's OK.
341
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:53,800
It's OK.
Sam, what have you done?
342
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:55,960
Why have you done this? Huh?
It's not fair.
343
00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,960
Sam, look at me. What...?
344
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:00,480
I had to do something.
345
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:01,960
I had to do something.
346
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:03,960
I need an ambulance, please.
347
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,800
45 Falfield Road, Walsall.
348
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:08,640
It's not fair.
WS2 9WB.
349
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:09,960
B for Bravo.
It's not fair.
350
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:22,960
I don't want to do it.
They're here to help you.
351
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:24,960
I tried everything.
Ssh.
352
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,960
I tried everything, Jas,
I tried everything. I know.
353
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,960
I know, it's OK, I'm here.
354
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,960
Hey, can you stop staring at us?
Just mind your own business!
355
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:39,960
Sam, come on. It's OK, Sam.
356
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,640
What's the next one?
357
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,960
Candy, OK. See if you can find it.
358
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,960
He's doing well. Yeah, he'll
be doing the spelling bee soon.
359
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,160
Eh?
360
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:54,960
KNOCK ON DOOR
361
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,960
Hello. Mr Singh?
362
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,640
Yeah, yeah.
Can I have a word?
363
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,960
Yeah. Um, two minutes
and then burgers. OK?
364
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:11,960
NURSE: Hey, how are you doing?
365
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,960
'I want to stress she'll be sedated,
she won't feel anything.'
366
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:17,960
ECT had a lot of bad press
at one point,
367
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,160
but we continue to find it
very useful in giving relief
368
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,960
to patients as severely depressed
as Saman.
369
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,960
And nothing else we've tried
has worked, so...
370
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,960
Just don't go home and Google it,
Mr Singh.
371
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,960
We'll talk more later.
Yeah.
372
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:56,960
Like you're not gonna Google it.
373
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:58,960
'I know. It's mad.'
374
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:02,000
But you know the worst thing, Jo?
375
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,640
If I'd have let her carry on
pleading guilty, like she wanted to
376
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,960
in the first place...
377
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,960
all right, yeah, she-she might have
gone to prison, but....
378
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:17,960
..she'd be out by now.
379
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,960
Oh, Jas.
380
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:22,960
My boy would have a mother.
381
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:26,960
And Sam would be free.
382
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:30,480
BEEPING
383
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:34,960
WOMAN: Treat.
384
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,960
PAULA VENNELLS: The problem
is relatively very small.
385
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:02,160
Very few complaints.
386
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:06,480
But this is a very serious matter
for the Post Office,
387
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,160
whose business rests on our
reputation for being trustworthy.
388
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,960
Well, we all represent
constituents who tell us
389
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,960
that your helpline
is of little value,
390
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,960
that the training you offer
is minimal.
391
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,960
Angela is our
Head of Network Services.
392
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:23,960
Thank you. Um...
393
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,960
Well, the helpline
and support are there.
394
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:32,960
Now, whether staff take it up
or not, that's another matter.
395
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,960
Mrs Vennells,
is the Post Office saying
396
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,960
that Horizon is 100% foolproof?
397
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,960
Because that would make it
the first perfect software system
398
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,960
ever implemented by government.
399
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:47,960
The system is robust.
400
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,960
Gentlemen, we have nothing to hide.
401
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,960
Indeed, we're ready to mount
and fund an independent review.
402
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,960
Well, that's marvellous,
and I'm sure Mr Bates
403
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:00,960
and the Justice For
Subpostmasters Alliance
404
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,960
will be thrilled
to get involved with that.
405
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:17,960
Bet you've missed me, Susan.
406
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,640
Sleepy?
407
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,960
I wish.
408
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:26,960
I'm a proud public servant now.
409
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,960
Well, I'd wager it's not half
as much fun as your old life.
410
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,960
Chasing down villains
and fraudsters with me.
411
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:36,960
Susan.
412
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,960
I don't know.
413
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:41,960
That's why I hired you.
414
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,960
Ah. Angela Van Den Bogerd
is Head of Network Services.
415
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,640
Bob Rutherford from Second Sight.
416
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,480
Here to help.
417
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,960
We've pulled a dozen files
for you to look at,
418
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,960
all the cases
the MPs have been pushing.
419
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:03,960
Anything else you want, though,
we can provide.
420
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,960
Accounts, procedures, backgrounds,
I'll draw up a list.
421
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,960
And I'd like to visit Fujitsu
in Bracknell.
422
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,960
No problem.
423
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,160
Oh, are you not staying?
424
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,960
Knowing you of old, Bob, I imagine
you're itching to get on the road.
425
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,000
Thank you, all.
426
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,960
'Alan, you can't go
and meet him on your own.
427
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,960
'Because how will you know
what to ask this investigator?
428
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,960
'And because she's my neighbour,
and she's really nice,
429
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:33,960
'and she wants to help.'
430
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:38,640
"Kay Linnell,
Past Master and Liveryman."
431
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,960
'Kay Linnell, forensic accountant.
432
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,480
'Alan, bite her hand off!'
433
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:44,960
Alan?
434
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:49,960
Alan Bates?
435
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,960
Kay Linnell,
Past Master and Liveryman
436
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:55,960
of the Worshipful Company
of Arbitrators.
437
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:57,640
You've been looking me up.
438
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,960
And Board of the Inland Revenue's
former Chief Prosecuting
439
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:03,800
and Investigating Accountant.
440
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:05,960
Now, that was a fun job.
441
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:07,960
Shall we?
442
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:10,320
May I underline that,
443
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,640
although the Post Office
has agreed to fund
444
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,960
this independent investigation,
445
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:16,960
Mr Rutherford's organisation,
Second Sight,
446
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,960
will be working for us, the MPs,
447
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,960
and therefore, indirectly, for you,
448
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,960
Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance.
449
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:26,960
So...
450
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,960
Alan, Kay,
what would you like to know?
451
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:32,800
Well, I'd like to know
452
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,960
exactly what makes you think
you're qualified to do this job.
453
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,960
Well, I'm a forensic accountant
of many years' experience.
454
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,480
I don't doubt your paper
qualifications, Mr Rutherford.
455
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:44,960
I have them here in front of me.
456
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,640
But I see nothing to persuade me
457
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,480
that Second Sight
is remotely capable
458
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,960
of producing
a truly independent report.
459
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:55,960
One that's ready
to bite the hand that feeds you.
460
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,960
Bob Rutherford is a member
of the Association
461
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,960
of Certified Fraud Examiners.
462
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:02,960
He has led hundreds
of investigations all over the world
463
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,960
into banking fraud, corruption,
rogue traders, subprime mortgages.
464
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:08,960
Doesn't answer my question.
465
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,320
How can we be sure
you will investigate fairly
466
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:13,960
and independently?
467
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,960
Because the people
who suggested me know me of old,
468
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:21,800
and they want to hire me because
they know what I like to do best,
469
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,960
which is to clear innocent people
who look guilty.
470
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:28,320
I still don't see
how we can trust him
471
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,960
when he's taking Post Office money.
472
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,960
Well, you can't pay him.
473
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:35,960
I'll help in my spare time.
474
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,960
What I really need is lawyers
who'll work for nothing.
475
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:39,960
KAY CHUCKLES
476
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,000
One day, you'll find
your precious lawyers
477
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,800
and we'll get this scandal
into court.
478
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,960
But we'll need evidence
which mortals like us haven't a hope
479
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:50,960
of getting our hands on.
480
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,960
But Bob's outfit, Second Sight...
481
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,960
they'll have access
to seven years of raw data.
482
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:00,960
This Bob...
483
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,960
he can't just look
at individual cases, though.
484
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,960
He has to look at Horizon
as a whole, as a system.
485
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,960
Am I to take it you're happy
to support his investigation?
486
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,960
Well, being as it's the only one
we've got...
487
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,320
JO: When I first came
to the Post Office,
488
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:31,000
they were introducing chip and PIN,
and it never worked properly.
489
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:36,960
The base unit,
the Horizon computer...
490
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:38,960
whatever you call it,
491
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,960
the thing that sits
under the counter,
492
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,960
I thought of it
as like an alien thing.
493
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,960
Sometimes, engineers
would come from Fujitsu,
494
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:48,160
with their clever badges on,
495
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,960
and I never had any idea
what they were doing.
496
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,960
This is probably
a really stupid question, Bob.
497
00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:01,960
There are no such things
as stupid questions,
498
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:03,160
only stupid answers.
499
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,960
That £36,000
I'm supposed to have lost...
500
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:13,960
..where did it go?
501
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:15,960
I haven't got it.
502
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:16,960
So who has?
503
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,960
I don't know...
504
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,960
but I'm going to find out.
505
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,960
MICHAEL RUDKIN:
It's a bed-and-breakfast now.
506
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,960
We're private people, Bob.
507
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:44,960
This was our family home.
508
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:48,320
But the Post office gave us
no option.
509
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,800
No other way of making a living.
510
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:53,960
Thank you.
511
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,000
Cheers, love.
512
00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:02,960
My wife has had it
so much harder than me.
513
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,960
Susan was in charge while I was
away on federation business.
514
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,960
She never told me, so I had no idea
she was in trouble.
515
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:16,960
Even though at least half
my work in federation
516
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:17,960
was Horizon-related by then.
517
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:21,960
I said to her...
518
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:25,960
.."You've ruined my fucking career.
519
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:28,960
"You've destroyed our business."
520
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,960
Mr Rudkin, please don't feel obliged
to divul...
521
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:37,160
WEAKLY: I said I'd divorce her.
522
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,960
Now, they punished my wife...
523
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,960
who never stole a penny piece...
524
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:49,960
just because I got inside Fujitsu
525
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,320
and saw something
that I shouldn't have.
526
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:03,640
I think
what I had was a computer bug.
527
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,960
I think it was called
a Callendar Square Bug.
528
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:09,960
I can't be sure.
529
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:11,960
But it was real.
530
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,960
It was real. Other people had it.
531
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,960
Yeah, I tried...
I tried to tell the court that,
532
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,960
and I just kept
sort of saying it wrong.
533
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,960
And the more I tried, the more I...
534
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:30,960
I can't explain it.
535
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,960
Well, it was like...
536
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:37,960
I was on the edge of...
537
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,000
a great, dark hole.
538
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:48,960
I was...
I was just falling into it.
539
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,640
The thing is,
I knew that they were lying,
540
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,960
and I knew I was telling the truth.
541
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,960
And I just thought,
"This is British justice.
542
00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:01,960
"That's all I've got to do,
is tell the truth."
543
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,960
Oh.
544
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:08,960
Sorry.
Oh, no, no, no. God, no!
545
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,320
I don't wanna upset you,
I was just trying to tell you...
546
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,960
No...
547
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,960
No, it's just,
the more of you people I meet,
548
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,960
the less I... know
how you're all still standing.
549
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:26,960
Yeah.
550
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,960
Susan.
551
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,960
We need to speak now.
552
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,960
Always good to see an old friend,
but I do have a diary.
553
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:38,800
Not today, you don't.
554
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:41,960
Lee Castleton.
555
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:43,960
You know, the one you hounded
556
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,960
all the way to the Royal Courts
of Justice?
557
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,320
When you knew he had no money.
558
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,800
You have humiliated him,
559
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,960
you have bankrupted him,
and I don't get it.
560
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,960
Yes. I don't know why we did that.
561
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,320
Well, let me suggest two reasons.
One, you're stupid.
562
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,000
Or, two, you want to rub his nose
in the dirt,
563
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,800
use him
to frighten off everyone else.
564
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,960
I wasn't even here then.
565
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,960
Oh, please.
What is wrong with you people?
566
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:11,960
Are we ever to see the PIN pad
567
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,960
that Mrs Kaur alleges was
responsible for her shortfalls?
568
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:17,320
Your Honour, I can now confirm
569
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:21,800
that Post Office Limited is unable
to produce the PIN pad in question.
570
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,960
I'm told
it was sent away for repair
571
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,960
and has been reprogrammed.
572
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:30,960
So it WAS faulty?
573
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:35,960
In those circumstances, Your Honour,
the prosecution offers no evidence.
574
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,960
This matter has dragged on
for three years.
575
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,960
I direct that a not-guilty verdict
be entered
576
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,960
on all 36 counts on the indictment.
577
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,480
Mrs Kaur, you're free to leave.
578
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,960
Court rise.
579
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:00,960
Congratulations.
580
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,960
Hey. See?
581
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:07,960
You were right. It was faulty.
582
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,960
Sam, three years of our lives,
but it's over now, OK? No.
583
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,960
Because they won't ever put another
picture in the paper, will they,
584
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:16,960
to say I'm innocent?
585
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:20,960
Come on.
586
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:25,640
We're making progress.
587
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,960
Now the investigation
is properly up and running,
588
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:30,960
I just thought, enough go-betweens.
589
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:32,960
What a good idea
to bring you two together.
590
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,960
I do hope it's been useful
for both of you.
591
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,960
Terrific idea. Thank you, James.
592
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:40,960
And, Alan, I do hope
you'll take away from this
593
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:42,960
a sure understanding
that Post Office
594
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,960
is as fully committed as you are
to resolving this situation.
595
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:48,960
Thank you.
596
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,960
And, erm....
if there's anything else?
597
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:55,960
Uh, no, I...
598
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:57,000
Er...
599
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,960
Why are you only looking
at 12 cases?
600
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,960
Well, they are the 12 cases put
forward by Members of Parliament.
601
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,960
All the cases where we are alert
602
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,960
to the possibility
of miscarriage of justice.
603
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:13,960
There are a lot more, though, Paula.
604
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,960
Victims who were never charged
with any criminal offence.
605
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,960
But perhaps your people
haven't told you about that.
606
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,960
About all the destitution -
people sleeping in their cars,
607
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,960
losing their house, their health.
608
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,160
Surely you'd like to hear
from them, too?
609
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:36,960
SCOFFS
610
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:38,960
Is that your throwaway exit line?
611
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:40,960
ALAN CHUCKLES
612
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,960
I was just thinking, you know,
if you knew the full story,
613
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:45,160
you wouldn't want that
on your conscience.
614
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:46,960
So...
615
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,960
Well, shall I suggest a few names?
616
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,960
STUTTERS
617
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:54,960
Yes, erm...
618
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:57,960
Good idea.
619
00:35:57,960 --> 00:35:59,160
These are what I have here.
620
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,800
PHONE RINGS
621
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,960
Bob, good to hear from you.
622
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:12,960
The day you went to Fujitsu...
623
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,320
are you sure it was
the 19th of August?
624
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,960
Uh, 2008, yeah.
625
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:19,960
Never forget that -
last day of our old life.
626
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:24,960
Michael, you're not down
as a visitor on their security logs.
627
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,960
Post Office are denying
that your visit ever happened.
628
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,960
Course they are.
629
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,960
Michael,
can you prove you were there?
630
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,960
Bob, it was four years ago.
631
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,960
'I don't work for the Post Office
any more.'
632
00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:02,960
Look at your new best friend
pretending she can do a proper job.
633
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:06,960
'It's lovely
to be here. Thank you.'
634
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,960
INTERVIEWER: 'Paula, how often do
you get to visit a place like this?'
635
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:11,960
'Probably once a month if I can.'
636
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:12,960
Oh, please!
637
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:14,960
'And what reaction do you get?
I mean, you're the big boss.
638
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:16,960
'No.
639
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:18,960
'This is the Post Office.
640
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:20,960
'I get treated the same
as everybody else,
641
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,640
'and they tell me how it is.'
642
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,960
'And what's it like being the
chief executive of a major company?'
643
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,960
'Well, I think you can tell
by the smile on my face
644
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:30,960
'that it's... it's great.
645
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,320
'Retail is detail...'
Shut up.
646
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,960
Shut up, you silly cow.
647
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:37,960
Come on.
Come and get your breakfast.
648
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:45,960
I shall present evidence to show
649
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,160
that the Post Office
has made failures in support,
650
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:49,960
investigation, training,
651
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,320
and I found clear evidence
of two bugs.
652
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:53,480
Two?
653
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,960
We gave you 47 cases. 47!
654
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,320
And this draft report
of yours only mentions three.
655
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:02,960
Where's Michael Rudkin,
656
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:04,960
who can prove they're lying
about remote access?
657
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:06,960
He can't prove it, actually.
658
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:08,960
Well, Members of Parliament
659
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:10,960
would certainly like to see
more individual cases. Oh!
660
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,640
Look, the point
is not individual cases.
661
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,960
The point is total systemic failure,
which you don't mention.
662
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,960
Well, we haven't found
hard evidence of that, either.
663
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,960
Well, what would you call
the endless PIN pad anomalies
664
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,960
and shortfalls doubling
before people's eyes
665
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,960
and overnight so-called corrections?
666
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,960
Well, there are 68,000 users,
667
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,000
processing six million transactions
a day.
668
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,960
Well, this is just the gospel
according to the Post Office.
669
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,800
Alan. For it to be systemic,
that would have to mean
670
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,960
that the whole network was affected.
and it just isn't.
671
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,960
What about the way they abuse
their power and prosecute people
672
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:46,960
without investigating properly?
673
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:51,960
And then... And then terminate them
on three months' notice
674
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:53,960
and walk away
with their life savings?
675
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:55,960
Is that not a systemic failure?
676
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:56,960
We all agreed from the beginning
677
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,640
that the report should be accurate
and evidence-based.
678
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,960
The Post Office has left
a trail of destruction
679
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,960
ever since the day
that Horizon was introduced,
680
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:06,960
and we're just sitting around
chatting about it
681
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,960
while they're still ruining lives...
682
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:10,960
systemically.
683
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,960
ALAN SIGHS
I agreed to this.
684
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:17,960
I must've been mad.
685
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,960
Welshmen with bees in their bonnets.
686
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,960
I was born in Liverpool.
687
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,960
He's an accountant, Alan.
He's naturally cautious.
688
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,960
I can be cautious.
689
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:31,960
Wasn't me in there
banging the table.
690
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:34,960
I've never seen you angry before.
691
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,160
All that grandstanding,
you mean?
692
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:38,960
I learnt that from you, Kay.
KAY CHUCKLES
693
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,960
Ah, I don't get angry,
I just get frustrated.
694
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:45,960
Second Sight are going to have to
695
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:47,960
come up with something better
than this.
696
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:57,960
PHONE RINGS
697
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:03,960
'Bob, how's it going?'
698
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,160
Michael. Good. Um... any luck?
699
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,960
It's been a long time.
A lot of water under the bridge.
700
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:11,960
Yes, OK.
701
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:12,960
'I understand.'
702
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,960
But, uh... see attached.
703
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,960
Oh, my fucking good God.
704
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:37,960
Michael, thank you.
705
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:39,960
'Thank you so much.'
706
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,960
So, Bob, I can confirm
that in August 2008,
707
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:50,960
the basement of Fujitsu's building
in Bracknell
708
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,960
did contain
a Horizon test environment.
709
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,960
Note, a TEST environment.
710
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,960
And that's what we believe
your subpostmaster Mr Rudkin saw.
711
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,160
He got the wrong end of the stick.
712
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,960
The test environment
wasn't physically connected
713
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,960
to the live Horizon system,
so... it wasn't possible
714
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:12,960
for the transactions
he thought he saw to be real.
715
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:17,960
Got it. Thank you.
716
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,960
That's cleared that up.
Good.
717
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:26,800
I'll see you out.
718
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,960
Thank you for joining me
by conference call.
719
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,960
I'm sorry for the short notice
in keeping the board updated.
720
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:35,960
The Horizon review interim report
721
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,960
will be presented to MPs
in one week's time.
722
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,960
The report has found
no systemic issues
723
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,960
with the Horizon computer system,
but I am concerned
724
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:50,960
that the report from
the independent forensic accountant
725
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:52,960
is not as factual as expected...
726
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:56,960
..and could lead to loose language.
727
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,960
ALAN: What are you?
Poacher-turned-gamekeeper?
728
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,960
This report of yours turns out
to be not half-bad, considering.
729
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,000
Faint praise. I like it.
730
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,160
Oh, I just hope
it makes a difference.
731
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,960
What got Michael Rudkin
into the final version?
732
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,960
Hm.
An email inviting him to Bracknell,
733
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,960
copied to seven
named Post office executives.
734
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:30,160
Hold on.
735
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,480
So, first, they say he wasn't there,
736
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:34,960
then they say he was there.
737
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,960
But, what, his glasses were broken?
BOB CHUCKLES
738
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:39,960
I wonder if they even know
they're talking bollocks.
739
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,960
Welcome on board, Bob.
740
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:47,960
Yeah, they still say that there's
no remote access into your accounts.
741
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,960
I'm sorry, but I don't think
I'm going to be able to prove
742
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,640
that they're wrong and that
you're right on this one.
743
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:55,960
But, Alan, there are things in...
744
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,960
documents that I found
in the Post Office files.
745
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,960
Beyond belief.
746
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,960
Someone else I need to tell first.
747
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,000
Good morning.
Good morning, Mr Frog.
748
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,160
There he is!
There he is.
749
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,480
Let's say good morning.
Hello, all.
750
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,960
Bob, we're baby-sitting
in the sunshine.
751
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:18,960
Isn't he gorgeous?
CHUCKLES
752
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,800
I was hoping you'd be sitting
somewhere quiet.
753
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:24,960
Yeah, I can do that,
or I can put the kettle on.
754
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:26,960
Oh, me and Joshua
will put the kettle on.
755
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:33,960
Your investigator, Ryan Fleming.
756
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:35,160
The toad?
757
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,960
Did you ever see
his report about you?
758
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:40,960
No.
759
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,000
The 17th of May, 2006,
760
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,960
he recorded that he had analysed
your Horizon accounts
761
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,960
and was unable to find
any evidence of theft.
762
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,960
Mm.
763
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:01,960
Yes. No evidence means they had
no right to charge you with theft,
764
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,960
and therefore no right
to plea-bargain you down
765
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:06,960
to false accounting.
766
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:12,960
Jo, no evidence means they had no
right to take you to court at all.
767
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,960
Everything I've gone through.
768
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,320
Everything I've lost.
769
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:35,960
FORCEFULLY: Ten... years...
770
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:39,960
..of heartache...
771
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:41,960
and sleepless nights...
772
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:43,960
and always skint.
773
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,960
Er, they destroyed our whole life
for a lie?
774
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,960
What kind of people are they?
775
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,960
NEWS REPORT:
'The Second Sight report
776
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:03,960
'presented to MPs
in Westminster today
777
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,960
'was expected to include criticism
of the Horizon computer system
778
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:09,960
'and of the senior management
of the Post Office.
779
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:14,000
'But while the report does raise
concerns about unreliable hardware
780
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,960
'and poor training,
a Post Office spokesman said
781
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,960
'the investigation clearly shows
its Horizon system as a whole
782
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:21,960
'is operating as it should.
783
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:22,960
'MPs praised the Post Office
784
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,320
'for the way they've dealt
with these difficult issues.'
785
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:36,960
PHONE RINGS
786
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:42,480
Alan Bates.
787
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:45,960
Alan, it's Paula Vennells.
788
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:51,480
Paula.
789
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:54,000
Joking...
790
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,960
So, I was thinking...
791
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:00,960
..where do we go from here?
792
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:04,960
Well, um...
793
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,960
I've been thinking about that, too.
794
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,320
Well, great. Should the two of us
try and find a way forward?
795
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:15,960
If you want something done properly,
do it yourself.
796
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:18,960
Exactly.
797
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:22,960
Well...
798
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:24,960
How can I help?
799
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,960
# God knows what is hiding
800
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:35,160
# In those weak and drunken hearts
801
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,960
# Guess he kissed the girls
And made them cry
802
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,960
# Those hard-faced queens
Of misadventure
803
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:48,960
# People help the people
804
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,960
# And if you're homesick
805
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,960
# Give me your hand
And I'll hold it. #
806
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:57,960
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