All language subtitles for Tantura

Afghanistan: no.

Argentina: abstention.

France: yes.

Ghana: no.

Lebanon: no.

Soviet Union: yes.

United Kingdom: abstain.

United States: yes.

The resolution of the
ad hoc committee

for Palestine was adopted
by 33 votes.

Thirteen against, 10 abstained.

My name is Yitzhak Pinto.

I'm 93 years of age.
I was born in 1927.

What you see here

are original items that the
Kibbutz and its members used.

Everything works.

Nachsholim is 73 years old.

On June 14, 1948, we were here,

one month after the
establishment of the State.

At that point the Alexandroni
Brigade had seized Tantura

and we were suddenly informed:
"You're not going anywhere.

"You will build
your kibbutz here."

63 people came to settle here.
Of them,

only three girls
and myself remain.

Far away.

Just put it there and that's it.

Give it to me.

No, not to you.
Put it there.

"Look, see the
glory of this day..."

We came to Tantura in 1948.

- In June, 1948.
- In June 1948.

-June 14.

- What was here at the beginning?
- Sand and more sand.

And the Arab village of Tantura.

We came to the Arab village.

Each of us took a
room in the village.

It was a very big village.

That's where we settled.

One house was
turned into a dining hall.

It was the sheikh's house.

- Six tables, that's it.
- In front, there was a terrace

with this smooth burgundy floor,
on cement, so beautiful.

We always danced there,
by the sea.

We were a few
meters from the sea.

We loved the village too,
even though it was horrible.

What we remember
are the good memories.

Yes, exactly,

- I have only good memories...
- Me too.

...because I'm fed up with
remembering bad things.

My name is Teddy Katz.

Teddy is short for Theodor.

I was named after Binyamin Ze'ev

Theodor Herzl.

My whole life I thought,
and I still think

that the root of the disaster,

including the part... that can
be called the contamination,

is 1948.

To this day,

the vast majority

of what happened in 1948

is not only hushed up,
but also destroyed.

In the War of Independence,
we knew one simple thing:

it's either me or them.

It's either me or them.
You never

knew if you'd even come back.

The Arabs are an evil,
cruel, vindictive enemy,

but...

we were better, in battle.

Always.

For the most part

we were kids, 18 years old.

Some were even 17.

The feeling was of something
that didn't exist in the world.

We knew that by
fighting the war,

we would establish the State.

"A state is seized
by the sword."

That's what my father told me:

"You take a country by force."

Of course we killed them.

We killed them...

without remorse.

Just like that.

If you killed,
you did a good thing.

When I think of myself,

I was willing to kill,

because that's how I was raised,

that this way,
we'll destroy our enemies,

or they'll avoid us,
because they fear us.

I didn't talk to
anyone about it.

Nobody.

What about your wife?
I assume you lived with her

for many years.
You didn't talk to her about it?

-I never told her.

What would I tell her?
That I was a murderer?

Nice. Do you want
anything to drink?

Not yet.

Teddy, how's it going?

Thank God, it's going well.

Teddy, if you get tired, tell me
and we'll take a break, okay?

Okay.

I want you tell me what you

remember as
naturally as you can.

Look, before you begin,

I want to tell you
that I've had a few strokes.

I'm not sure that I
remember everything.

The first stroke was
linked to this incident.

Do you think people
were killed there

after the battle ended?
Are you sure?

First of all, I'm sure of it,
secondly, they told me so...

and thirdly, I have the tapes.

Where are the tapes?

In the other room.

We have a room,
called the "Tantura" room.

There is an entire collection:

tapes, folders,
books, you name it.

Everything on Tantura is
in that room. Should I get it?

Yes.

How many tapes are there?
- If you have a few days...

That's the thing.
There are about 140 hours.

Half are interviews with Arabs,
and half with Jews.

This is where they
said everything.

Here, tapes...

I approached people and told
them I wanted to write a paper.

These are the soldiers
of the Alexandroni Brigade.

It's also arranged by date.

How long did you spend on this,
recording them?

Around two years.

So what?
You go to them and hit "Record"?

Each person who spoke to me,
did it at his own home.

I went from house to house, and

they each sent
me to more people.

You need to take into account
that they were in their 70s,

meaning that

we recorded the tapes
some 20 years ago.

Can I listen to them?

You can take the
tapes and listen to them,

but if you want to
make a movie out of it,

be careful, because you'll
be hunted down like I was.

Let's organize it a bit, so
that we have it all on record.

- Your name is Asher Breitbart.
- Asher Breitbart.

How did you find
Asher's address?

Henio.

Do you do a lot of this, Teddy?

Yes.

And people remember a lot of it?

Some remember more, some less.

Yeah, people don't remember much
from the War of Independence.

I collect whatever
each person remembers.

What one person
remembers is his truth.

Whatever a person
tells me is what

he is left with after 49 years.

It's possible that
someone next to him

saw and remembers
things differently.

Right, right.

I gather versions,

For all I care I'll gather 360
versions. I crosscheck them.

At some point,
all the versions intersect.

What happened in Tantura

I can't tell you...
There are all kinds of rumors

that prisoners were killed...
that prisoners weren't killed...

I don't know.
These are things I heard...

and I didn't take
part in them in a...

That's it. What...

But from what you heard,
because obviously...

the underlying idea was
that in Tantura, probably...

some people at least,
maybe even all of them,

retaliated for the deaths
of many of our men,

and many Arabs were massacred.
Those were the rumors.

Undoubtedly,
it was a combination

of all kinds of things...

of... vengeance and cruelty...
and people who came from...

Some people came from
the death camps.

The question is:
What happened there

that people were in
such a trance that...

based on several testimonies,

they released their anger
on everyone they saw.

What happened there?

Look...

it's a story I tried to make
sense of after the war.

After the war, I asked myself:

How can one become a
normal person after all this?

How do you make
peace with yourself?

Just to be a normal person. You
killed and murdered without...

If a friend of yours was killed,
you would lose control.

- Your nerves...
- You would lose control.

Everyone there had
their residual issues...

And then it unloads.

Then it simply unloads.
You can't help it.

I need to understand something.

- Did you understand what I...
- Absolutely,

but I want to add something
that keeps me occupied.

Can you attribute this
behavior that you're

describing,
which is the behavior of people,

it's not the behavior
of murderers...

It's the behavior
of normal people...

No, it's not the
behavior of people.

I'm saying it's the behavior of

regular people
of flesh and blood.

It's not the normal
behavior of people.

That's what I'm telling you.

My name is Yaacov Erez,

and in a few days
time I will be 95.

At the time the State
was established,

I was in battle in
Arab Kfar Saba,

We heard Ben Gurion's speech.

We were lying between
the rocks and were tired.

There was a truck with a radio.

He turned up the volume, and we
heard them declaring the State.

Only then did the war begin.

Six thousand soldiers fell
in the War of Independence.

There wasn't one battle from

which everyone came back.
Not one.

Henio, are you okay?

I'm not dying yet.
Yes? I'm fine.

But... its eating at me:
Why I can't tell...

You can tell.

I want to tell you
about Tantura.

Tantura is a very
interesting story.

I remember the
battle for Tantura.

It was a serious battle.

The village was eradicated.

That's it.

Tantura was a classic battle.

I crossed a field,
at five in the morning.

Have you ever seen Gary Cooper
running in the movies,

with bullets fired at his feet?

That's how it was for me.

I commanded the force that
took Tantura from the north.

And...

Ehhh...

There was a battle,

we had hardly any casualties,

and that's it.

I understand that what happened
in Tantura after the takeover,

with the killing,
I understand it was...

Don't say killing.
I didn't say killing.

Whatever, but...

that's more or less what
happened. The question...

I wouldn't say killing.
I wouldn't say killing,

but there was a bit more,
actually...

They killed a bit more.
It didn't happen in many places.

It happened here and there.
What can I say? Leave it.

The question is if...

talking about it afterwards,
did anyone...

I'm sorry.
I put too much emphasis on it.

I don't know what to tell you.
Look...

Erase it.

I found seven Jewish people

who did, in fact, say that
there was a massacre,

but later,
they all fell into line

and denied it.
They took their orders from...

I don't remember
his last name, Henio.

This affair began at...

the university, in Haifa.

There was this guy, Teddy Katz.

He submitted his M.A. thesis
to the university...

I submitted my thesis.
I received my grade, 97.

and then when the thesis
substance came to light,

there was a massive outcry.

I mostly dealt with
what happened here.

What happened here?

Tantura.

What happened here
wasn't only pushing

away the Palestinians
from their village.

What happened here, is that they
did not let the Palestinians

go away just like this.

They, first of all,
killed many, many of them

and there was not
any reason to do it.

We were turned into murderers.

We lined up the Arabs
and shot them for no reason.

Nothing of the sort happened.

Not even one person
was murdered there.

This story that a trench was dug

and 300 people were shot
and put in it is a myth.

If anyone was killed,
it was in battle.

This was an outstanding
master's thesis from

the department of
Middle Eastern History

that was widely acclaimed.

I didn't expect any problem for
him with this work, I must say.

And... he got, as you know,
he got a very high grade.

And we all forgot about it
until a journalist in "Maariv"

decided to go to the library,

and he publishes in the weekly
supplement of "Maariv,"

and then all hell broke out.

Hello, Mr. Katz.

In your thesis you claim there

was a massacre
in Tantura in 1948

and that 200 Arabs were killed,
were murdered.

How did you reach
these conclusions?

There are dozens of testimonies,

recorded testimonies,
people spoke,

and the material is recorded.

We spoke with several professors
from the University of Haifa.

Although they declined to
take part in this broadcast,

they seriously
doubt the authenticity

of the material you assembled.

I sat with 135 interviewees,

half of them Jews,
half of them Arabs.

I heard what they said,
I recorded them.

- I sat with people--
- Mr. Katz...

-and asked myself,
-Mr. Katz...

"Do any of them look like a

"murderer,
God forbid, or a killer?"

And I confess, they all
look like normal people...

It never happened.

It never happened.

He claimed. And then we,
the brigade, went to war.

The veterans of the Alexandroni

Brigade, some of whom
I knew in person,

called me and complained

how it comes that the university
approved such a thesis

and I said, "Well...

"he interviewed you,
you told him things."

They argued that he distorted
what they said to him,

and I said, "If you have
complaints, let's meet

"and we shall try and find a way

"to cope with it in the
framework of the university."

I wasn't blinded
by the great respect

I undoubtedly have
for these people, for

what they did for
the State of Israel.

They fought for a
year and a half in

order for a state to
be established here,

but you saw they couldn't fathom

how such an academic study
could take place.

We couldn't stick
around in silence

so we decided to sue
him for defamation.

Look, there was a trial
and it was proven that he lied.

I hate to say this,

you're investigating now,

and you're...

we're done with Teddy Katz.

Why did you take this case?

As a matter of fact, since 1948

there hadn't been a legal case
that dealt with the Nakba,

as the Nakba,
or with the events of the Nakba.

It was the first case
that raised this matter

and I thought it was a very

important trial for
our awareness,

for Israelis,
who repress this event.

And in my opinion
the Alexandroni soldiers

were naive enough,
so I thought at first,

to file a defamation
suit instead

of letting it be forgotten.

Now, what was it all about?

A university thesis

that would have obviously
been forgotten after a while.

No, they insisted
on a defamation suit,

and I was glad they did.

It started with one day
of legal proceedings,

if I remember correctly
Teddy was questioned,

yes, Teddy was questioned,

but things evolved differently
from what I expected.

Did you bring the tapes to the
trial? Did you play the tapes?

No, we didn't even get to that.

The judge threw him out
She didn't want to hear him.

She didn't want to listen.
He tried

to speak,
she couldn't care less.

Up against people
from the brigades,

and the university...
he's a nobody.

My name is Dr. Drora Pilpel

and I presided over the case
known as the Tantura Affair.

The atmosphere in the courtroom,

as I remember,
was one of great malaise

on the part of the
Alexandroni men,

a strong drive of their lawyer
to prove they were in the right,

then there was Mr. Katz,
who kind of

reminded me of Moses,

slow of speech
and slow of tongue.

You could tell he was frightened
by the situation,

he was simply frightened.

And he had this
look as if to say,

"When will this
day in court end?"

This is an affair
that we actually

don't know what happened there,

and there's a mosaic...

Formally we don't
know what happened.

- Formally we don't know.
- Formally...

What do you think
really happened?

That's a question.

That's a question. Yes.

It was clear to me, as it is

today, that there
was no genocide.

Look, I don't think Teddy Katz
talked about genocide,

he did say that
prisoners were killed.

His theory was that they were

lined up against
a wall and shot.

- I think that was his theory.
- Among other things.

Yes.

Had you heard a clear confession
in those cassettes,

by Israeli soldiers,

that hint or talk
about such things,

would you have
ruled differently?

- Did you hear the tapes?
- Would you like to listen?

- I can play them for you.
- Yes.

Yes, I want to listen.

This I never heard.

This I never heard.
If it's true, it's a shame.

Calm down, Fifi,
it was long ago.

Listen, in my opinion,
if he had such things,

he should have seen it through.

We seized ten prisoners,
I think. I saw them.

I don't remember.

Some of these younger soldiers
I remember,

it's not nice to say,
they put them

in a barrel and
shot at the barrel,

and I remember the
blood in the barrel.

No, no, don't write that.

Rumor had it someone
lined them up and shot them,

but I didn't see
and I don't know.

And shot them why?

Why? Because he wasn't human.
And I know who it was.

But I don't believe it.

You're talking about
Company B commander?

No, not a commander, just
a soldier. I don't believe it.

I don't believe... I didn't
see it with my own eyes.

These were rumors...

I saw some who were lined up
in front of the houses and...

There was no massacre.

There was no massacre.

There was no massacre.
It's not true.

- There were stories...
- I don't think so, Michal.

- There were...
- No.

There was no massacre there.

But they said...

Someone from... not you.

Were people murdered?

I don't think so.

I don't know.
There were rumors, but...

No. There was no murder.

We had a company
commander in Tantura

who later became an important
man in the Defense Ministry.

He shot one Arab after
another with his gun

because they didn't
give up their weapons.

He shot them one by one with his
Parabellum and killed there...

No!

He did what he did and...

That's it.

That's Micha Vitkon.
He was with me, the...

I don't know what to say, I...

I don't remember, maybe I
saw but I don't remember.

That's not who we are.

Shooting in the head
with a Parabellum,

that's exactly
what the Nazis did.

I don't believe that...
I didn't hear,

that's for sure,
but I don't believe it either.

Tantura was a big village...

It was, relatively,
one of the wealthiest villages.

We were on very
friendly terms with them.

When I was little,
maybe five or six years old,

we drove from
Zichron to Tantura,

and we lived with the
Arabs together in the houses.

We had wonderful relations.

Later there were wars,
but there were good days too.

There were all kinds of plans
on how to seize Tantura.

We were told
that it was the only port

that served the Arab gangs.

The plan that was
ultimately executed:

Company A from the north,
Company B from the eastern side,

and Company C from the south.

It wasn't enough that Company A
was in the north,

two navy boats with machine guns

were called in to
open fire on them.

Once you surround
them from all sides,

they fight harder,
they have no choice.

Towards the morning
the village was seized.

All the men were rounded up.

A large number of
weapons was seized.

Obviously women,
children and the

elderly were permitted to leave.

At one point I
entered the village,

and it was a beautiful place.

I remember when the battle
was over, we went for a swim.

We played around in the clear,
beautiful, wonderful, water.

Look, that's more
or less all I remember

about the Tantura affair.

I don't even remember
what was done

with the population
that was rounded up.

I really don't remember
what happened.

From the morning of May 23,

until the evening when
they left the village,

they didn't remember
what happened.

Before that they
remembered all the details.

After that they
remembered that some

of them bathed in
the Tantura beach

before leaving the place.

Yet surprisingly throughout the
day, they remembered nothing.

We split up, rounded up the

residents,
and entered the backyards.

In each yard there were
40 to 50 people.

Forty to 50?

Yes, yes, inside the yards.
They were afraid.

They couldn't be alone,
so they gathered in these yards.

And they didn't have weapons?

No, these were the residents,
residents.

I'll just write
down the details.

Rizek Ashmawi.

- You were born in...?
- Tantura.

They started rounding up the
people from 10:30 or 11:00...

they started rounding
up the people.

The men on one side, the
women and children on the other.

Men and women
separated from the start?

Yes.

But in the same place?
Could everyone see everyone?

Yes.

- Where was this?
- On the beach.

The women and children
were separated from the men

and they sat them
down on the beach.

As a 13-year-old,
who were you with?

I was... I went with the men.

Uh-huh.

In battle a maximum of ten
people from Tantura were killed.

No more than ten people from

Tantura were
killed in the battle.

After they occupied,
they started

to pile people and shot them.

We occupied Tantura,
we caught a lot of Arabs.

We rounded them up.

It's a story...

Great.

There were some 15, 20.

We kept an eye on them.

Along came a man with
an Australian hat,

with a hand gun,

he yelled in Arabic:
"Get up! Get up!"

They got up.

He went near them and looked.

He took a step back,
drew his gun -

bang, bang, bang, bang,
he killed them all.

I was horrified.

In cold blood, yes?

I didn't ask him, I asked people
who knew: "Why did he do it?"

"You have no idea
how many Jews these

"people killed,
you have no idea."

And that was it.

Were you mad at him?

No, of course not.

I just asked why,
that's all, no more than that.

I didn't care.

Tell me something,
when you saw people being shot,

did you see other
soldiers around?

What did the soldiers do?

Twice I saw they
put them against the wall,

bang, they killed them.

My question is,
when they shot, were all

the soldiers pleased
or did anyone...

Of course.
If you don't want someone to

kill, you won't let them,
they all wanted it.

They all wanted it...

Sure, the senior
officers wanted it, sure.

- Yes.
- Yes. They killed many people.

They removed them from
their homes in their pajamas.

They took them like cows in
front of them and killed them.

That's where I saw

about 20 to 25 men
were put up against the wall

and between them...
- Along the walls?

They put one next to the other.

We heard the gunfire
and I saw them falling.

and one of them called:
"Mother, mother,"

so the mother of this young man,

she pounced on him

and this soldier shot her too.

So that was the only
woman they shot?

- Three women.
- Ah, three.

There seem to have
been three forms of killing.

Two that occurred
on the beach and

at the same time in the houses,

and a third form, that was
perhaps the most terrible,

and that's what
happened on the other

side of the village
next to the cemetery.

The guys shot them,
struck them and...

I even remember guys
that killed. But that I don't...

there were guys...

He'd say: "Dig me
a hole" and he would

shoot him in the
head and kill him.

- Okay, but that's not...
- We'll get to that,

because we have to see
what happened here,

why they did it,
but we'll get to that.

Tantura... you know what?
I don't...

I encountered things that...
Let's move on.

Why?

I disliked it so much back then.

- Okay.
- I don't like it to this day.

- No problem.
- I want to forget it.

But if you didn't like it,
it's even more of a sign...

Look, the images engraved
in my memory, till this date,

are the men in the cemetery
in the evening.

Listen, I saw many people
getting killed around the world,

and I saw there people dying.

I saw and I moved aside.
That's all.

Leave me alone with this.
Enough. I'm done with it.

It seems that it's engraved
down to the bone.

Yes. Even things
I haven't mentioned.

For instance, did you see them
being lined up in rows?

Did you see them digging?

These are things that...

No, I'm trying to
sidestep the subject...

I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about
the aftermath that

I saw. How? What?
Leave me alone.

Listen, I hear
people confessing,

but do you think it's true?

Shlomo Ambar is a lieutenant
colonel, maybe even a colonel.

But how does he dare
to say something...

Well, he's strong, he's strong.

He needs to be
a little responsible

for his words,

which are painful to both sides:

To the soldiers and also to
the other side that was hurt.

I was born in Tantura.

How old were you
when Tantura was destroyed?

Eighteen or 20.

I remember everything
that happened in Tantura.

I haven't forgotten a thing.

They put the children and women
in a house owned by my uncle,

when they started shooting,

what could my uncle do?
Nothing, right?

Did you see your
brothers being killed?

How would I see? There
was gunfire, how would I see?

Tell me how.

When you hear gunfire,
you're scared to death, no?

You run, right?

I snuck in among
the people that left.

I saw people running,
so I ran with them.

I didn't understand
what was going on.

If I had, I wouldn't have run.

I'm telling you, there's no
tragedy comparable with Tantura.

By the way, in Tantura our
men were killed by Arab fire,

their Jeep got stuck in the mud.

They shot them
and tortured them.

What do you mean?

They slaughtered them.

The guys in the Jeep thought it
was all over.

We found them in an awful state.

An awful state.

They were tortured,
they took their genitals

and stuck them in their mouths.

That's something
you never forget.

The first three to four months
I was a murderer.

What does that mean?

I didn't take captives.

During battle,
if someone raised hands,

I didn't take captives.

It shocked me so badly
that I couldn't let it go.

If a squad of, you know,
would stand with their hands up,

on that same day, if I saw it,

I would have shot them all down.

How many people do you think
you killed this way?

I didn't count.

I can't really know.

I had a machine
gun with 250 bullets.

Look, I shot,
I fought along with everyone.

I can't count.

One guy went ballistic,

Moshe Barbalat was his name.

We attended elementary
school together in Bnei Brak,

He took a grenade
and threw it into a room

and many Arabs
were injured or killed.

You're telling me
about the grenade...

If I tell you the name,
will you remember it?

I'll say it... Barbalat.

It's Moishe Barbalat.

Moishele Barbalat?

Ehh... a rascal, but a fighter.

There are all kinds
of stories about him.

Stories... yes, from back then.

But... nothing special.

In Tantura he did
something else.

He grabbed a woman,
young and good looking,

went into a house,

prepared a bedroom
and wanted to fuck her.

Then he was caught,
they beat him and threw him out.

But I don't remember a grenade.

He wanted to rape a woman,
that's true.

This guy, I remember it well,
he took a girl,

a pretty girl,

from the pile of people where
we sat near the big house,

they wanted to rape her there.

So her uncle stood up and said:
"I want the girl."

So one guy shot him on the spot.

The girl came back half dead,
like a rag.

"When the regiment marches,
the enemy kneels at its feet.

"Its villages fall into
the hands of our fellows,

"Kakun and Tantura,
the regiment will act vigorously

"to destroy the
enemy like vermin."

People went wild in Tantura.
It was awful.

Tantura was a rich village,
beautiful houses,

they lived there like Europeans,
you know?

And the women were beautifully

dressed,
this village was really...

One guy raped
there a sixteen-year-old

girl or something of the sort.

You understand?
But this is very ugly.

There was one guy,
he passed away, he was a savage.

He just took them

and murdered them
in the enclosures.

In the enclosures.
They were in enclosures,

you know,
surrounded by barbed wire.

All the men were rounded up.

They were all
sitting on the ground,

and someone comes and takes
a machine gun and starts...

and then reloaded the cartridge,

what do you think?

But we weren't like that

He was exceptional,
that guy and what he did.

And it was hushed.

And some guys took
flamethrowers and

ran after people
and incinerated them.

It was horrifying.

It's forbidden to tell,

I'm not going to talk
about it... because...

it could cause a huge scandal.

I don't want to talk about it...
That's it.

But it happened,
what can you do? It happened.

He's riding the donkey.
I had a donkey there too.

They weren't with me.

No, they weren't with me.

- But you remember those donkeys?
- Yes, yes.

There were many Arab casualties

and they were scattered,
like garbage.

No consideration, no nothing.

On the roads, the paths,
between the houses,

they were scattered everywhere.

I don't even remember
if they were buried or not,

but I know they were taken away.

What about the burial?
Who dealt with it?

Of the Arabs?

We didn't wait around for it.

They gathered them
and we didn't wait around.

A cart with two mules
took all their corpses

and brought them
to the cemetery.

Do you remember
them being buried there?

- No, of course not. I didn't go.
- They dug...?

No, no, it's of no interest.

Let's go back to the scene,
and we'll end there.

The scene where
everyone was gathered

by the house... the factory?

The men were no longer there.

- When the battle was over.
- Yes?

After they took the men,
the women,

children and elderly remained.

How much longer
did they remain in the village?

About a day or two.

With all the bodies,
and all the...?

The bodies -- two
days later I brought

people from Fureidis
and they buried them.

So the families
remained in the village

with the bodies
scattered around?

With all the bodies, yes.

I was born in Tantura in 1935.

We were born in Tantura
and we stayed until 1948.

They occupied the
village and that was it.

They brought us, women
and children, to the mosque,

and arrested the men
that were still alive.

The men that were murdered,
they gathered their bodies

and piled them up on a cart.

I happened to look and I saw the
bodies of my father and brother

among the other bodies.

They were in a pile by the pit.

I asked a man who
was standing there,

he said they're going
to bury them in the pit.

I asked, "They want to
bury them all in one pit?"

He said,
"At least they're being buried,

"so the animals and
birds won't eat them."

- Hello, Mr. Sokoler.
- Hello.

- Can I call you Motl?
- Yes.

- Shall we begin?
- Yes.

On Saturday two guys said to me,
"You have to join us."

I asked, "Why?"

They said, "We have
to go to Tantura tonight."

We were there for a few days,
then we had to bury the dead.

So we buried them...
I took workers from Fureidis,

we buried them and that was it.

How many were killed?

Some 270, 280.
I buried them.

I came back two days later and

there was a hill
like a mountain.

They inflated,

and then it dropped.

He's totally nuts, this Sokoler.

You know how many
auto-suggestions,

inventions, imaginary fictions

he collected throughout
these 50 years?

The issue is,
what is the relative

value of different
kinds of sources.

I am considered
a radical on this issue,

I don't believe witnesses.

And Teddy's thesis was...
about 90% or so

based on oral evidence.

Which is good for folklore,
but not for history.

Teddy, technically, did all the
evils in taking the evidence.

He mixed up what he was told,
what he wrote in his paper,

what he was thinking

and it's all a salad,
you cannot differentiate them.

But you never listened to the
actual audio tapes

- of the Hebrew...
- No, no.

The whole work
was error after error.

I think that a student that
wrote such a lousy, sloppy work

should be thrown
out of the university,

he's not entitled
to his defense.

The apology:

"I wish to clarify

"that after reexamining matters,

"it is clear to me
beyond any doubt

"that there is no
basis for the claim

"that people were
killed in Tantura

"after the surrender
of the village.

"I wish to clarify

"that the things I wrote
were apparently misunderstood

"and I retract any conclusion
I drew in the research

"with regard to the
occurrence of the massacre

"and the killing of defenseless
and unarmed people.

"Signed, Teddy Katz."

I made all kinds of
mistakes in my life,

but apparently

the biggest mistake I ever made
was releasing that apology.

And, of course,
I regret that to this day.

Very much.

As I later found out,

there had been a meeting
at attorney Erdenist's office

with Teddy Katz, his wife,
I think, other lawyers,

the lawyer who initially
represented him, Atlas.

Who was absent?
I was absent.

They came to someone
whom they knew I was defending,

that I was his lawyer,
without me,

they forbade him from telling me

to come to that
nighttime meeting.

How can you define it other than
taking someone hostage?

It's disgraceful.

It disgraces and shames
the Alexandroni Brigade.

You want to defend your name,
is that how you address it?

After the lawsuit was dropped,
he told me, "Help me,

"I can't live with this,
cancel the agreement."

And we asked to
revoke the agreement,

and the agreement
could have been revoked,

but the judge refused. We filed
an appeal to the Supreme Court,

which was also dismissed,

and ultimately it was Teddy Katz
versus a whole group

who all wanted to bury it.

To bury this trial,

and perhaps even bury Teddy Katz
along with the trial.

The university should
have told the court,

"With all due respect, this
matter is an academic debate."

But to go so far as removing

Teddy Katz's thesis from
the library shelves?

On the library's shelves,
though vastly

different, there's also
Hitler's "Mein Kampf,"

sitting there on those shelves.

All that remained
was to burn it.

When the university takes sides

supporting the
plaintiffs at court,

and doesn't
unequivocally support the

author of the thesis
and his instructor,

this constitutes a
deviation from the

most fundamental
academic principals.

And this is in fact is what the

university did,
this was the goal:

To silence him as he'd expressed
himself in his work.

And that was the price he paid.

Suddenly he became
an "Israel-hater,"

an unwanted man in this country,
a troublemaker.

It was an awful
and terrible time.

And then the threats
started on the phone.

The kids started getting
phone calls about...

their father.

"We'll destroy you,
we'll show you."

"Who are you? What are you?"

It was scary.

You feel like the
country is against you.

Look, I think that
societies don't like

dealing with the darker
sides of their history.

We can't imagine
that a fourth grade

teacher enters the
classroom and says,

"Hello, children,
we're a nation who

"committed murder or
the transfer of a population

"in order to
establish the State."

Every public
tells itself a story

justifying itself
and its conduct,

and that all the wrong,
negative things we did,

we did because it was forced
on us, not because we wanted to.

That's why people
get annoyed when

you tell them
anything different.

War has everything.

Take the Americans for example,
what did they do in Vietnam?

They threw prisoners
from helicopters.

You can't say this
to the Americans.

You won't say it,
America wouldn't

tolerate you saying
something like that.

In my opinion,
we are a pure nation.

Believe me, we're pure.

We were so good.

So humane.

And we had high morals.

Many people who
contacted us said,

"Listen, we know it happened,
but why say it?

"Why talk about it?

"It's unnecessary.
Okay, it happened."

"You're destroying the country's
wonderful reputation."

Many people said that.

Had I testified there, that guy
would have received his degree.

Do you understand?

He would have
received his degree.

But...

That guy was silenced.

- His name is Teddy.
- Teddy, yes.

He was silenced.
Yes, he was silenced.

He lost in this case.

But he wrote something
that he didn't get backing for.

But he told the truth.

He told the truth, yes.
He told the truth.

But the guys denied all of it,

and they interviewed Henio,
they interviewed me.

They interviewed other people.

We didn't know, we didn't hear.

But everyone knew?

Of course everyone knew.

Everyone knew.

I think the self-image of Israel
as a moral society

is something I haven't seen
anywhere else in the world.

How important it
is to be exceptional.

We are the Chosen People.

This is part of the Israeli
self-identification

as a very superior moral people,

and I grew up on this... "The
most moral army in the world."

And I think it's
very hard for Israelis

to admit that they
commit war crimes.

Because, basically, the project
of Zionism has a problem.

It's a tragedy in a sense.

Jews had to escape from Europe

to find a safe haven,

but you cannot
create a safe haven by

creating a catastrophe
for other people.

Every village that fought us,
we fought.

All along the road to Haifa,
all the villages fought us.

So the goal in
all these villages

was to fight them
so they'd leave.

So they fled without fighting.

They fled, no fighting,
no nothing.

When we entered the villages
the pita bread was still warm.

Did we drive them out?

We fought,
we didn't drive anyone out.

Whoever fled, fled.

In the operation
to take the Galilee,

that was conducted a bit later,

there were two Arab villages,

I don't remember which was
Druze and which was Arab,

Nahf and Sajur.

One we ravaged,
and the other we didn't touch,

we didn't take a single
hair off their heads.

What do you mean by "ravaged?"

Leave it.

Leave it?

It was a time when
Ben Gurion said

we have to do everything so that
Arabs flee the Galilee.

So we beat them up, and burned,
and did all kinds of things

to get them to flee.

Now, everyone and their morals,

and everyone and
their interpretations.

In most of the battles I focused
on taking over Arab villages.

There was always an order --
and it came from Ben Gurion --

"Drive the people out."

And that's it,
so they were driven out.

Lod, Ramle, Tantura,
they were driven out.

Obviously people did it.
Someone did the job.

We'd arrive at a village,
it became standard, automatic.

The buses would come
and take the people away.

When we occupied a place,
tractors razed the place.

Razed it.

Nothing remained of the village.

Why? They didn't
want anyone to return,

or to leave any
trace of the place.

Ethnic cleansing,
which is what happened here,

is exactly executed like that.

There's no big program. There's
no big command from Ben Gurion.

You just make sure that
people understand that

the less Arabs would be
in what becomes a Jewish state,

the better.

You know, you don't get
a manual book

of how to execute an ethnic...

there is not "The Dummy's Guide
to an Ethnic Cleanser,"

or, you know, how to do it.

If you can achieve
it by intimidating

them two days before,
by horror stories,

okay.

If that doesn't work,

and you shoot two,
three of them and they leave,

very good.

And if this doesn't work,
because they resist,

and you massacre,
then you massacre.

It's amazing that Ben Gurion
understood so early on

that this issue of what
happened to those

750-800,000 Palestinians in '48

would be perhaps
the main issue that

would preoccupy
the State of Israel

throughout all its years.

But in the late 50's he
turns this into a state project.

He says, "I want a study written

"that will prove that the
Arabs left on their own accord

"and weren't driven out by the
Israeli Defense Forces."

I found correspondence related
to the writing of the study.

One of the historians
approached by

Ben Gurion to conduct
the study wrote,

"You asked me to
write a study proving that

"the Palestinians left
of their own accord,

"following their leaders'
command to do so."

There wasn't even
an attempt to say,

"I wrote this study that
shows X, Y or Z." No.

Ben Gurion demands
that history be written

and that an allegedly certified
narrative be created

that will show that
the Palestinians

left of their own accord.

In 1988 we marked
the 40th anniversary

of the War of Independence.

IDF archives were
due to release the

historical documentation
from the war.

People gathered in
the archive and said,

"We can't release
everything immediately."

Therefore they wrote
a policy document

detailing criteria as
to which historical

documentation we
reveal and which we don't.

For example,
the State decides it does not

want to release
material that indicates:

"Deportation of Arabs"

or "The evacuation of
communities and residents."

Or, and this is my favorite one,

"Violent behavior
towards prisoners

"that violates the
Geneva Convention."

Or, "Violent behavior
towards the

"Arab population
and acts of cruelty:

"killing, murder not
in accordance with

"combat conditions,
rape, robbery, looting --

"material that may
harm the IDF's image,

"as an occupying army

"devoid of moral standards."

What do we learn from this?

That the State of Israel wants
to protect, in any possible way,

the founding myth of Israeliness

which is that we
are the most moral

army and society in the world.

That's the DNA
of the Zionist story.

So what we, the public, have
when we go to the archives

is only material
that's passed this filter,

meaning it's only material that
proves there was no expulsion,

there was no
population transfer,

there was no
destruction of villages.

Now, it must be said,
this story is a lie,

and therefore
the State understands this

and invests
tremendous resources in

preventing people
-- not from abroad,

but its own residents -- from

knowing the truth
about its past.

In the morning after the battle,

the women and children were

gathered by the
village entrance,

south of the cemetery,
and from there

they were kicked
out to Fureidis.

In Fureidis they
don't have enough

food, they couldn't
sustain themselves

and after two to
three weeks a decision

is made to deport them eastward.

The issue of the
Arab population in the

territories occupied
by the Jewish forces

becomes acute:
what do we do with these people?

When it comes to Tantura,
there's another issue:

they have the
information and memory

of what occurred in the village.

There's a secret we don't want

known between
Tel Aviv and Haifa,

in the center of the country.

One thousand people who know it,

in the next generation,
that's...

hundreds of thousands.

It's best these
people are not around.

This article is from Maariv
newspaper on June 20, 1948.

"There were old people so weak
they were on the verge of death.

"A boy with two paralyzed legs,

"another boy whose
hands were severed,

"the sick,
who death had already marked.

"One woman carried
her child in one arm

"and with the other hand
she held her elderly mother.

"The latter couldn't
keep up the pace,

"she yelled and
begged her daughter to

"slow down,
but the daughter didn't consent.

"Finally the old lady collapsed
onto the road and couldn't move.

"The daughter
pulled out her hair,

"tore off her dress
in anger and in fear

"lest she not make it on time.

"And worse than this
was the association

"to Jewish mothers
and grandmothers

"who lagged this
way on the roads

"under the crop of murderers."

A Jew almost couldn't escape
this comparison,

certainly not in
1948 when European

roads were still full
of Jewish refugees.

But the journalist is appalled
by the comparison,

so he goes on to say,

"There is obviously no room
for a such a comparison,

"this fate -- they brought
upon themselves."

He makes the
comparison and then writes,

"There is no room
for this comparison."

Why did he put it in
if there was no room for it?

Because he
understood that to some

degree, there was
room for comparison.

When the decision is made to
evacuate the refugees of Tantura

from Fureidis beyond
the border lines,

the decision includes
carrying it out like a PR event.

And conducting a PR event means
you invite Israeli journalists,

you invite foreign journalists,
you invite film crews,

which was pretty
rare in those days.

In fact,
it was a well-produced event,

meant to be shown
to the whole world.

This is the Mukhtar of Fureidis.

"Red Cross officials
took a child in their arms

"and the photographers
took pictures,

"and with this humane
act we'll meet again

in the Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer
newsreel."

Buses run by the
Red Cross conveying

Arab refugees from
territory of Israel.

Trudging on a journey
across no man's land.

They are mostly
women and children.

This is an example

of how a transfer of population
goes on in Palestine.

The picture that emerges is that
the Palestinian refugee story

is in fact not so terrible,

there's a sense of order,
a certain logic.

That is to say, "we have no
score to settle with Tantura,

"and they have no
score to settle with us,

"see how well
we're treating them."

The MGM film crew was also
in Tantura a day or two before.

The footage shot
there didn't make

it to the newsreel's final cut.

But we got our hands
on the original footage.

In this footage we see a staging
of the battle of Tantura.

We don't see the
original residents,

we don't see the
soldiers being shot at.

What we see is an
abandoned village and

a reenactment of
the battle of Tantura,

intended to portray
it as devoid of

cruelty, irregular incidents,
et cetera.

But the truth has its own power.

When we examine
the raw footage we see

a village abandoned
by its residents.

We see destruction,

We see barrels
that were shot at,

We see the remnants of looting.

It's very easy not to deal
with stories of this kind,

but the power of truth cannot be

hidden, and when it's hot,
it surfaces,

and more people ask questions.

To find out more
about what happened,

I went to the IDF archive

and searched for
all the documents

that could shed light
on what happened.

I accidentally came across
two or three documents

that clearly weren't
indented for me to reach.

And one was written by the
Chief of Staff to Alexandroni:

"Re: Tantura,

"I was informed by the
Department of Arab Affairs

"that our soldiers
who entered Tantura

"carried out many
acts of sabotage

"after the occupation,
without any reason."

Another letter from June 9th,

from Tantura base to
the region commander:

"I checked yesterday the
mass grave at Tantura cemetery.

"I found everything in order."

It's not me using the
term "mass grave,"

it's not me who says
"burial site in Tantura,"

and it's not me using
the chilling words,

"everything in order."

Look what a pastoral village
this should have been.

Like in Greece.

And what's left of this village

is this single house
where we're sitting now.

Everything around was destroyed.

What I heard is that there was
a mass murder in Tantura.

and all the bodies that remained
here were buried in mass graves.

They were buried by
people from Fureidis.

It was horrible.
What they saw was horrific.

They said, "We buried people
everywhere. Everywhere".

At knee height,
slightly above the knees.

This deep.

They just lay the body down
and covered it.

In 1991 there was a man
from Kibbutz Nachsholim,

he wanted to
build a diving club.

As they were digging, they

revealed bones.

Where?

Bones from a mass grave,
here behind us.

When I asked them,
"What are you doing?"

they were digging
with a backhoe loader.

Here, right here.

Here, where I'm standing.

Under me, here.

So as they were working I saw
many bones, many, many bones,

I asked him,
"What are these bones?

"What are these bones?"
I was shocked.

He said, "These bones are from
the days of Napoleon Bonaparte."

I said, "I'm afraid
you're mistaken, these

"are mass graves from
this village, from '48."

So he closed the matter,

he covered it all up
and disappeared.

In the parking lot here,
there's a

cemetery. They turned
it into a parking lot.

A parking lot!

There are graves there,
there's a whole cemetery there.

Everybody knows there's a whole

cemetery there,
no one addressed that.

They leveled the whole place and
turned it into a parking lot.

Where's the justice?
Where's the justice?

Where's the justice here?
There is no justice.

We don't know about it,
because we weren't here.

We weren't here
in the beginning.

What we knew is that
there was a mass grave.

Do you think there
was a mass grave?

- Yes.
- What did you see?

We didn't see anything,
but they said so.

- Alexandroni's soldiers?
- No, not them.

No, they didn't
talk about it with us.

Some people who remained in
Fureidis came and showed us.

- Arabs?
- Yes, yes.

That the grave is here.

But we didn't hear or see
and we don't know.

We didn't see traces either.

Yes, we came after that.

There was nothing.
We saw nothing.

- Um Rasmi.
- Yes?

Do you remember where
the dead were buried?

In the cemetery,

but not next to the existing

graves, on the side.
On the side.

When you go there you'll see
the old cemetery in one place,

and the new graves in another

place, not far away,
but separate.

When you enter by
the railroad tracks,

the cemetery is on the right.

It's a big cemetery.

South of the structure, in this
whole area, there were graves.

From this structure southwards,

to the palm trees,
that's all a cemetery.

There were three trees there,

30 meters north of
those trees, more or less,

they dug a pit that was
surrounded by piles of soil.

There must be two mass graves in

Tantura, according to
the oral history.

And not only according
to the oral history.

You go to people in Fureidis,

they tell you, "Of course
there are two mass graves,

"we know where they are."
- Where are they?

Under the parking lot.

It's quite clear that at least
a significant part of the bodies

are buried...

In the ground
under the parking lot.

I thought the conclusive proof,

the unequivocal proof,

would be if I dug

and found the mass grave

where the people were buried.

Who would have an
interest to dig it up?

You say to me, "Dig it up,

"because there's
something there."

What? I say there isn't,
so who's gonna decide?

If we had the ability to go
and look for the mass graves

and find them and excavate them,

official Israel -- government,

foreign ministry,
mainstream academia --

would find a way of saying

that what we see
is not what we see.

I don't think it holds water,

there is no reason to do it,

I don't think they'd
find anything there,

and I don't think
it's worth the effort.

Don't you want to
solve it once and for all?

I don't care if it isn't solved.

For me, and I don't think
for the State of Israel...

It doesn't worth.

It's a huge project,

if it is possible at all,
which I very much doubt,

and for what?
Because some idiot said?

We have on screen
a current aerial photograph

of the Tantura area.

We'll bring up an
aerial photo from 1946.

We see the village
before the war,

and all that's left
of Tantura is one

house on the beach,
and the boats,

that surprisingly appear in
all the photos along the shore.

In this photo from 1946
we can see the village center.

We see the main road,
the entry to the village,

the area of the cemetery.

South of the cemetery,
we have this

plot, surrounded by cactuses,

and in it we see three trees.

One, two, three.

If we shift from the photo
from '46 to the photo from '49,

we can see that after the war

we have what
looks like a trench,

an open trench.

Its length is 35 meters, its
width is between 3 to 5 meters.

This specific area underwent
a form of engineering activity

let's call it
"a manipulation of the surface."

To make a trench like this
you need a tractor.

It's not that someone removed
this layer of soil with a hoe.

We will move on to 1949
and we can clearly see,

someone did something,
very focused and specific

Where is it today, this thing?

We can see that it's here.

And this is the parking lot
of the beach and the museum.

No road was paved here,
nothing was built here.

We can see that the base
of the trench is 2.6 meters

and the upper section
is about 3.5 meters.

So this is an open trench,
about one meter deep.

This is an open trench
what you see here?

It's an open trench.

Yes, it's an open trench.

You have more
or less the precise

location of something
you suspect,

something that
can perhaps solidify

the testimonies, the story.

But to conclude and say,
let's dig there and find out...

You know what?
Maybe yes. Maybe no.

But I have a feeling

that if you think you'll go dig
and find something,

someone beat you to it.

This is a dug trench.

Looking at it in a
3D rendered model

you will get a better picture.

You see it almost a year later.
Do you understand?

Someone may have opened it
and cleaned up the area.

It's not in preparation for...

it's more like...

A clean up or a
change of the area.

Tampering with evidence?

Of some sort, yes.

Sadly and shamefully,

the current generation
doesn't understand

that when they walk
in this area of Tantura,

they're actually walking

over mass graves where
ex-residents were buried,

and it was hidden in such a way
that future generations

will walk there without knowing
what they are stepping on.

Of course, it's much easier

to ignore the whole
thing and then

you walk with a
clear conscience.

You didn't dirty
your conscience.

You didn't see, you don't know,
you don't recognize...

So everything is fine.

I simply can't.

There are people
here who don't care.

Our history, as it is conveyed
to us, is far from the truth.

There needs to be
a change in thinking,

about everything that happened,

to recognize the fact that
there was a Nakba here. Period.

And if there are places...

where a monument is needed on
a mass grave, it must be done.

Because that's the history,
that's

the truth.
No need to be ashamed.

Yes, there was a war here, fine.

But there are people here to
whom we must pay our respects.

Recognition, only recognition.
Before even doing anything.

As customary
nowadays in Australia.

Clearly the
aboriginals are still

deprived, suffering, rejected,

but the State, symbolically,
through countless

gestures,
recognizes their injustice.

And this recognition
is a starting point.

To say it explicitly:
In 1948 terrible

injustices were inflicted
on the Palestinians,

robbery, looting,
deportation and massacre.

This thing doesn't even...

glitter on the horizon
of public life in Israel.

Let's say people from
Fureidis show up and say,

"We want to construct a monument
in memory of our loved ones."

I don't think they'd let them.

The entire kibbutz, not just me.

They wouldn't let them.

Because if they ask for it,
it means it's important to them.

Yes, it's important.

If it's important to them,
then it harms me.

There is no Tantura here,
there is no Tantura here now.

There is no Tantura village.

- They can take --
- It's history.

-- whoever is buried there

and bury them in Fureidis.

But a monument
is not for graves.

A monument is so that
you won't forget what happened.

Right. That's what they want.

That's what they want,
and I don't.

I don't want that.

I think they have the right to
remember, what do you want?

Fine, they can remember quietly.

Like we remember
that we were in Europe,

they want to remember
that they were here.

It won't help, my friends.

Once there's a sign,
there's ownership.

He's asking what we think, not

what will help.
What do you want?

A sign is ownership.

It's about property.
"This is mine."

That's it.

It will not end.

When they say they've come
to terms with it, yes.

If they haven't, no.
That's it.

Come to terms with what?

That we're here.

I have a different opinion
and I will say it.

I was in Warsaw last year

and you see monuments everywhere

in memory of what
happened there.

If they did it in their city,

we can also do that.

There are things
you don't want to remember.

Right?

Yes.

I made myself forget.

Yes, yes.

I was horribly traumatized.

I lost my best friends.

So forgetting is a
self-defense mechanism?

Yes, and I tried
not to think about it.

To this day.

To this day.

Listen, war is war.

Not everyone can
know what war is.

And I say, whoever wasn't there

can't judge anyone else.

Really can't judge anyone else.

Later on,
didn't you ever ask yourself,

"What the hell did I do?
Why did I do it?"

I'm telling the truth: no.

I'm telling the truth: no.

At night, sometimes I would
suddenly wake up,

but gradually... I decided
not to think about these things.

Not to think about them at all.

And I stopped and that was it.