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Did you have some interaction
with a Conrad Roy Junior?
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-Yes, I did.
-And could you please describe that?
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Objection.
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Overruled.
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I was... I was... I responded
to an assault call, sir.
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Okay. And what
did you do when you arrived?
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We attempted to find the person
that had been assaulted.
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Okay. And at some point
in time, did you come into, um,
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the physical presence
of Conrad Roy III?
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- I did.
- Okay. And uh,
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did you make any observationsof him?
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Yes, his face was swollen red
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and he had some uh,lacerations to his face.
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Did you obtaina written statement from him?
15
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I did, yes.
16
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I found myself at a home
located on Perkins Lane.
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And what did you do
when you arrived at that location?
18
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I interviewed an older male
and a female.
19
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Okay. And do you remember
the older male's name?
20
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Conrad Roy.
21
00:02:42,241 --> 00:02:44,410
And did you ask him
specifically what happened?
22
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Yes, I did.
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Before concluding my investigation,
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a male party was subsequently
placed under arrest.
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-And who was that male party that was...
-The father.
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-The one you were speaking to?
-Correct.
27
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-And what was he arrested for?
-Assault and battery domestic.
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Yeah. You know, you think at first
it's kind of embarrassing.
29
00:03:10,728 --> 00:03:12,396
But you know what?
It doesn't really matter.
30
00:03:12,563 --> 00:03:14,857
I know what happened
that night with my son.
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And I know, like,
I was being a parent.
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And I know things got out of control
and we both fought each other.
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And, um...
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and I'd do it again
just... just like that.
35
00:03:29,038 --> 00:03:31,958
You know, sometimes, like,
you say it, you know, like...
36
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My father always said,
"If you ever take a swing at me,
37
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you're gonna, um,
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00:03:37,379 --> 00:03:39,131
you're gonna get it."
You know? It's like,
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"You're gonna make sure
you don't do that ever again."
40
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And I just felt like
I had to do the same thing.
41
00:04:57,002 --> 00:04:59,421
Hard to describe the feelingin the courtroom today.
42
00:04:59,588 --> 00:05:01,298
Pretty much everyone on edge.
43
00:05:01,465 --> 00:05:03,384
Now, the defense
will present their case.
44
00:05:03,550 --> 00:05:05,886
They've already called
several witnesses this morning
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00:05:06,053 --> 00:05:09,515
and things will move forwardin this landmark trial.
46
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You have to remember thatthis case has two families
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who were basically tryingto do the same thing.
48
00:05:17,481 --> 00:05:20,860
They both want a version of the story
in which it is not their fault.
49
00:05:21,026 --> 00:05:23,070
The Roys are hoping for
a version of the story
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00:05:23,237 --> 00:05:26,657
where the suicide of their sonis Michelle's fault,
51
00:05:26,824 --> 00:05:29,869
and that she was waiting for the momentwhen she could pounce on this kid
52
00:05:30,036 --> 00:05:32,580
and make him kill himselfand get a bunch of sympathy.
53
00:05:32,747 --> 00:05:34,624
And the Carters are hoping for
a version of the story
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where Michelle's actions
are not her fault.
55
00:05:38,169 --> 00:05:40,880
And that's what Peter Bregginwas arguing.
56
00:05:41,047 --> 00:05:44,342
- Morning, Doctor.
- Good morning, Your Honor.
57
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Please raise your right hand.
In this matter before the court,
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00:05:48,012 --> 00:05:49,848
you swear the testimony you're about
to give to be the truth, the whole truth
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00:05:50,014 --> 00:05:51,391
and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
60
00:05:51,558 --> 00:05:52,976
-I do.
-Thank you.
61
00:05:53,143 --> 00:05:56,646
All right. Please take a seat, sir.
Make yourself nice and comfortable.
62
00:05:58,773 --> 00:06:02,652
I got a call out of the blue
from the attorney, Mr. Cataldo.
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00:06:02,819 --> 00:06:06,531
What he said is,
"Doc, we got this case
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00:06:06,698 --> 00:06:10,202
that we don't know what's going on
and we can't figure out...
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00:06:11,787 --> 00:06:15,749
Um... Give us a hand."
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00:06:18,168 --> 00:06:19,920
I was originally called in
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to see whether Conrad Roy's medicationhad made him suicidal.
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He was on psychiatric drugs,antidepressants,
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00:06:32,558 --> 00:06:37,187
and if you look at the research
on what the psych drugs do...
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00:06:37,354 --> 00:06:38,939
they can cause suicide.
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00:06:40,399 --> 00:06:43,861
I concluded it was
a contributing factor,
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but not an overwhelming factor,
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00:06:46,363 --> 00:06:49,575
because there were many other
things impinging on Conrad.
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00:07:04,173 --> 00:07:07,969
Conrad was reacting
to a very unhappy,
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00:07:08,136 --> 00:07:12,640
angry, and at times,
violent divorce. We know that.
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The father charged the motherwith assault.
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There're all these thingscoming to bear on him.
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Then I found out that Michelle was...
on psychiatric drugs too.
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And so, we have these two kids;
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00:07:32,244 --> 00:07:35,038
they're not star crossed,
they're drug crossed.
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00:07:36,081 --> 00:07:41,128
When did Michelle Carter start,
uh, consuming SSRIs?
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She started Prozac
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on February 17, 2011,
uh, ten milligrams.
84
00:07:50,970 --> 00:07:53,973
And, uh,
she was just a young girl then,
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00:07:54,140 --> 00:07:55,975
fourteen going on 15.
86
00:07:56,142 --> 00:07:57,602
Okay, thank you.
87
00:08:00,730 --> 00:08:05,860
Prozac greatly increase the riskof suicide in young people her age.
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00:08:07,570 --> 00:08:10,573
And she never should'vebeen given Prozac
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00:08:10,740 --> 00:08:12,575
because she was bulimic,
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00:08:12,742 --> 00:08:16,371
and that would increasethe power of Prozac over her.
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00:08:16,538 --> 00:08:19,874
And not long after
her first exposure to Prozac,
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00:08:20,041 --> 00:08:22,168
she climbed up on a stool
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00:08:22,335 --> 00:08:24,838
and put a noose around her neck
in her closet.
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00:08:44,733 --> 00:08:47,986
Now at the same moment, Conrad Roy,
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00:08:48,153 --> 00:08:50,739
whom at that point she thought
was a sweet boyfriend
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00:08:50,906 --> 00:08:52,700
without any serious problems,
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00:08:52,866 --> 00:08:58,372
was admitted to a psychiatric hospital
for a serious suicide attempt.
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00:09:44,627 --> 00:09:48,173
So now Michelle, who's a youngster,
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00:09:48,340 --> 00:09:51,343
who's on Prozac at the time,
100
00:09:51,509 --> 00:09:55,222
is dealing
with this huge disclosure.
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00:09:55,388 --> 00:09:58,642
It's... And he is saying
"I'm not who you thought I was."
102
00:10:01,645 --> 00:10:04,231
And furthermore,as announced to her
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00:10:04,398 --> 00:10:07,859
that voices are telling himselfto kill himself tonight.
104
00:10:16,702 --> 00:10:19,079
Michelle becomes desperate.
105
00:10:21,540 --> 00:10:23,334
Conrad won't answer her.
106
00:10:25,794 --> 00:10:28,005
And she thinks he's killed himself.
107
00:10:38,766 --> 00:10:43,479
Conrad, at least four times,attempted suicide,
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00:10:43,646 --> 00:10:45,731
once nearly killing himself.
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00:10:47,775 --> 00:10:50,153
He overdosed on acetaminophen.
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00:10:51,654 --> 00:10:53,322
And the EMTs call me.
111
00:10:54,907 --> 00:10:56,743
And, um, they ask, they're like,
112
00:10:56,909 --> 00:11:00,830
"Well, he threw...
You know, threw up a lot.
113
00:11:00,997 --> 00:11:04,042
Do you want him to be seen?"
114
00:11:04,209 --> 00:11:07,003
I said "Absolutely."
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00:11:20,642 --> 00:11:23,603
He almost needed
a liver transplant at that time.
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00:11:24,896 --> 00:11:26,857
He said he would never
do that again.
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00:11:27,023 --> 00:11:28,984
He said, "I promise you
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00:11:29,151 --> 00:11:31,528
I will nev...
never do that again."
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00:11:34,197 --> 00:11:36,450
I said, "You know that if you died,
120
00:11:37,534 --> 00:11:42,623
mom would want to die too.
You know that, right?"
121
00:12:02,142 --> 00:12:05,895
And how is this relevantto your clinical analysis of this case?
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00:12:06,062 --> 00:12:08,481
Well, it has to do with the...
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00:12:09,774 --> 00:12:11,943
effects of Conrad...
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00:12:13,612 --> 00:12:16,531
on what will eventually become
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00:12:17,908 --> 00:12:21,828
her idea taken from him
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00:12:22,829 --> 00:12:25,165
that he's going to kill himself,
127
00:12:26,249 --> 00:12:31,505
and that all he cares about
is doing it swiftly and quickly
128
00:12:31,672 --> 00:12:34,091
and not botching it.
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00:12:34,258 --> 00:12:38,846
She's following his lead
into a very dark place.
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00:13:47,499 --> 00:13:49,501
Probably the most common
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00:13:49,668 --> 00:13:52,337
adverse effect of
antidepressants is nightmares.
132
00:13:52,504 --> 00:13:54,464
So, this is just spot on.
133
00:13:54,631 --> 00:13:59,094
She's clearly out of her mind,
and so is he.
134
00:14:41,721 --> 00:14:44,432
You can't lookat one text message.
135
00:14:44,599 --> 00:14:49,520
You have to look at thetotality of their relationship.
136
00:14:49,687 --> 00:14:51,105
You have somebody, Conrad Roy,
137
00:14:51,272 --> 00:14:54,526
who has been suicidal
for a very long time,
138
00:14:54,692 --> 00:14:58,446
really, at this point in time,
intent on killing himself.
139
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,951
She, if you look at herfor a year and a half,
140
00:15:03,118 --> 00:15:06,871
never wanted him to die.Didn't want him to kill himself.
141
00:15:09,875 --> 00:15:11,960
What caused her to switch?
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00:15:13,879 --> 00:15:15,338
It struck me
143
00:15:15,505 --> 00:15:18,717
that she was in an extremelyabusive relationship.
144
00:15:18,884 --> 00:15:22,721
There's this constant harassing of her
145
00:15:22,888 --> 00:15:25,807
while he's not telling family.
146
00:15:25,974 --> 00:15:27,935
And at one point toward the end,
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00:15:28,101 --> 00:15:29,686
Conrad tells her...
148
00:15:29,853 --> 00:15:33,190
"The one thingthat will make me hate you
149
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is if you tell anyonethat I'm suicidal."
150
00:15:37,027 --> 00:15:39,530
And she listens.
151
00:15:41,115 --> 00:15:42,616
Michelle got it all.
152
00:15:42,783 --> 00:15:44,660
There's this huge pyramid
of his misery
153
00:15:44,827 --> 00:15:47,079
and at the bottom of it
is sitting Michelle Carter
154
00:15:47,246 --> 00:15:48,789
and nobody else.
155
00:15:48,956 --> 00:15:53,711
Conrad told Michelle
that his mother knew
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that he was suicidal.
157
00:16:03,679 --> 00:16:06,599
He actually screenshotted her, Michelle,
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00:16:06,766 --> 00:16:10,061
his laptop, of methodshow to kill yourself.
159
00:16:14,481 --> 00:16:16,692
Michelle says, "Well,didn't she say anything to you?"
160
00:16:16,858 --> 00:16:18,569
And Conrad responded,
161
00:16:18,735 --> 00:16:21,446
"No, she just looked at itand walked away."
162
00:16:27,953 --> 00:16:30,581
What Conrad is doing is manipulating
163
00:16:30,748 --> 00:16:34,668
and lying to Michelle,saying, "My mom even knows."
164
00:16:39,465 --> 00:16:42,676
The whole story became deeper,
165
00:16:43,803 --> 00:16:48,766
and the theme was running
the exact opposite
166
00:16:48,933 --> 00:16:52,853
of the DA's witch hunt.
167
00:16:53,020 --> 00:16:56,983
In fact, both were victims
of the psychiatric drugs.
168
00:16:58,276 --> 00:17:01,487
What is a involuntary intoxication?
169
00:17:01,654 --> 00:17:06,242
Well, by definition,
it's an intoxication,
170
00:17:06,409 --> 00:17:08,411
which means that
171
00:17:08,578 --> 00:17:12,749
the neurochemistry of the brain
has been disrupted.
172
00:17:12,916 --> 00:17:16,711
And that this intoxication
is observable
173
00:17:16,878 --> 00:17:20,965
through thoughts,
behaviors, activities.
174
00:17:22,759 --> 00:17:27,889
They involve, in general,
things like impulsivity,
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00:17:28,056 --> 00:17:29,933
impaired judgment...
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00:17:30,100 --> 00:17:32,310
And specifically, Dr. Breggin,
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00:17:32,477 --> 00:17:34,855
as to Michelle Carter,
did you have an opinion
178
00:17:35,021 --> 00:17:38,108
of whether or not she was
involuntarily intoxicated?
179
00:17:39,234 --> 00:17:41,611
-Yes.
-And what is that opinion?
180
00:17:41,778 --> 00:17:44,781
She was involuntarily intoxicated.
181
00:17:44,948 --> 00:17:51,914
She was taking Prozac
and she then switched to Celexa.
182
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,125
And are you able to pinpoint
183
00:17:55,292 --> 00:17:58,170
about when she became
involuntarily intoxicated?
184
00:17:58,337 --> 00:18:01,173
Yes, on July 2nd,
185
00:18:01,340 --> 00:18:06,262
she begins to help him go to heaven.
186
00:18:15,855 --> 00:18:19,650
At this point, she hasan involuntary intoxication
187
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where she's not forming
a criminal intent,
188
00:18:24,071 --> 00:18:26,532
"I'm gonna harm him."
189
00:18:26,699 --> 00:18:29,577
She's not doing something
she thinks is criminal,
190
00:18:29,744 --> 00:18:31,454
"This is bad."
191
00:18:32,705 --> 00:18:34,290
She's thinking
192
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that it's a good thingto help him die.
193
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That she can mitigatethe circumstances.
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That she can then goand help his family.
195
00:18:55,186 --> 00:18:58,982
And like anybody who's
in a hypomanic state,
196
00:18:59,149 --> 00:19:01,568
she gets very angry
when she's disrupted.
197
00:19:11,161 --> 00:19:13,121
This is now the way.
198
00:19:13,288 --> 00:19:16,166
She's found the way to finally help.
199
00:22:49,758 --> 00:22:53,512
Involuntary intoxicationis a diagnosis that I never use,
200
00:22:53,678 --> 00:22:57,557
and that most of the colleaguesthat I know don't use.
201
00:22:57,724 --> 00:22:59,977
But that is using
forensic psychiatry.
202
00:23:00,143 --> 00:23:03,522
So, without, you know,
without any consensus
203
00:23:03,689 --> 00:23:06,441
by our profession that
it's even real.
204
00:23:06,608 --> 00:23:10,237
In some children and adolescentstaking antidepressants,
205
00:23:10,404 --> 00:23:12,281
it can be disinhibiting.
206
00:23:12,448 --> 00:23:14,575
I wouldn't call it drastic,
you know?
207
00:23:14,742 --> 00:23:19,079
But, uh, if you become manic
when you're on antidepressant,
208
00:23:19,246 --> 00:23:21,290
that's pretty drastic, you know,
209
00:23:21,457 --> 00:23:24,794
and that happens in a very
small proportion of cases.
210
00:23:29,173 --> 00:23:30,925
You may resume when
you are ready, Miss Rayburn.
211
00:23:31,092 --> 00:23:32,468
Thank you very much, Your Honor.
212
00:23:32,635 --> 00:23:34,345
-Uh, good morning, sir.
-Morning.
213
00:23:34,512 --> 00:23:36,597
You would agree with me
at the time
214
00:23:36,764 --> 00:23:39,684
between July 2nd
and July 12th, 2014,
215
00:23:39,851 --> 00:23:42,145
the defendant was going
to camp, correct?
216
00:23:42,311 --> 00:23:43,813
- Yes.
- Okay.
217
00:23:43,980 --> 00:23:46,858
She was interacting with
friends at times, correct?
218
00:23:47,025 --> 00:23:48,985
- Yes.
- She's seeking therapy
219
00:23:49,152 --> 00:23:52,322
-and talking to her therapist, correct?
-Yes.
220
00:23:52,488 --> 00:23:54,949
And you would agree with me that
the therapist describes her appearance
221
00:23:55,116 --> 00:23:57,577
as good eye contact,
well groomed, correct? Okay?
222
00:23:57,744 --> 00:23:59,162
- Yeah.
- All right.
223
00:23:59,329 --> 00:24:03,083
Short-term memory intact.
Judgment good. Correct?
224
00:24:03,249 --> 00:24:06,086
-Behavior, no abnormalities, correct?
-Yeah.
225
00:24:06,252 --> 00:24:07,712
Her affect is appropriate.
226
00:24:07,879 --> 00:24:10,548
Her short, uh, long-term memory's
intact, correct?
227
00:24:10,715 --> 00:24:12,133
-Yeah.
-Her insight is good.
228
00:24:12,300 --> 00:24:13,677
-Correct?
-Yeah.
229
00:24:13,844 --> 00:24:16,888
And you're now telling us that she
didn't know right from wrong
230
00:24:17,055 --> 00:24:18,432
at that same time?
231
00:24:18,598 --> 00:24:20,934
Well, actually,
she thought she was doing
232
00:24:21,101 --> 00:24:23,061
absolutely the right thing.
233
00:24:23,228 --> 00:24:24,771
You would agree with me, though,
234
00:24:24,938 --> 00:24:29,401
that on July 10th
into July 11th 2014,
235
00:24:29,568 --> 00:24:31,486
the defendant is telling friends,
236
00:24:31,653 --> 00:24:35,282
specifically Sam Boardman,
that Conrad is missing.
237
00:24:35,449 --> 00:24:36,825
- Correct?
- Yes.
238
00:24:36,992 --> 00:24:38,619
But at the same time,
you would agree with me
239
00:24:38,786 --> 00:24:41,037
-she's communicating with Conrad?
-Yes.
240
00:24:41,204 --> 00:24:43,915
She's telling people he's missing,
she doesn't know where he is.
241
00:24:44,082 --> 00:24:45,458
She's getting updates
from the family.
242
00:24:45,625 --> 00:24:47,335
All while speaking to him, correct?
243
00:24:47,502 --> 00:24:52,132
Yes. It's very strange.
I can't find a rational reason
244
00:24:52,298 --> 00:24:54,050
why she would ever have been
doing this.
245
00:24:54,217 --> 00:24:57,220
I think it's part of a very
confused, delusional state
246
00:24:57,387 --> 00:24:59,472
that... Where she's coming
in and out of, uh,
247
00:24:59,639 --> 00:25:01,016
"What's happening?
What am I doing?"
248
00:25:01,182 --> 00:25:02,601
How about the rational reason
249
00:25:02,767 --> 00:25:05,061
that she wanted to know
how her friends would react
250
00:25:05,228 --> 00:25:06,980
when he killed himself?
251
00:25:07,147 --> 00:25:10,275
No. I can't imagine that
would be motivating her
252
00:25:10,442 --> 00:25:14,905
to be opening up this
horrible, bizarre activity
253
00:25:15,072 --> 00:25:17,115
she's involved in. I...
254
00:25:17,282 --> 00:25:21,078
I mean, you would expect her
not to do anything like that.
255
00:25:21,245 --> 00:25:23,830
But she's saying
she's concerned for him,
256
00:25:23,997 --> 00:25:28,168
while at the same time
talking to him.
257
00:25:28,335 --> 00:25:29,878
Yeah. I think it's really crazy.
258
00:25:30,045 --> 00:25:34,049
And in fact, Sam does,
I would suggest to you,
259
00:25:34,216 --> 00:25:36,593
she then shows concern.
Correct?
260
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,555
- Well, of course, yeah.
- Okay.
261
00:25:39,722 --> 00:25:44,852
Focusing now on July 12th
into the 13th. 9:48 PM.
262
00:25:45,019 --> 00:25:47,605
To Sam:
"I'm so fucking stupid.
263
00:25:47,772 --> 00:25:49,356
The generator he got
the other day...
264
00:25:49,523 --> 00:25:51,359
I think that he...
the noise I heard...
265
00:25:51,525 --> 00:25:53,945
I just looked it up;
they emit carbon monoxide.
266
00:25:54,111 --> 00:25:55,696
I think he poisoned himself
with it."
267
00:25:55,863 --> 00:25:58,032
And so it goes, correct?
268
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,118
- That's actually a question.
- Yeah. Yeah.
269
00:26:01,285 --> 00:26:02,787
Okay. Now,
you would agree with me, sir,
270
00:26:02,954 --> 00:26:05,540
that there were text messages
between the defendant
271
00:26:05,706 --> 00:26:08,918
and Conrad Roy about exactly
how he was gonna kill himself.
272
00:26:09,085 --> 00:26:10,503
-Weren't there?
-Yeah. Absolutely.
273
00:26:10,670 --> 00:26:12,922
Okay. So, her telling Sam,
274
00:26:13,089 --> 00:26:17,427
"I think the noise
that I heard, uh, I looked...
275
00:26:17,594 --> 00:26:19,762
I think the generator he got today,
276
00:26:19,929 --> 00:26:22,015
I think that was the noise
I heard. I looked it up.
277
00:26:22,182 --> 00:26:24,392
They can emit carbon monoxide."
278
00:26:24,559 --> 00:26:26,353
She already knew that, didn't she?
279
00:26:26,519 --> 00:26:27,937
- Yes.
- Okay.
280
00:26:29,689 --> 00:26:34,903
And now talking to Ally,
she says, "Ha, ha, yeah.
281
00:26:35,070 --> 00:26:37,447
But I don't know;
he's in a bad place right now,"
282
00:26:37,614 --> 00:26:39,324
talking to Con... about Conrad,
correct?
283
00:26:39,491 --> 00:26:40,867
Yes.
284
00:26:41,034 --> 00:26:42,411
She's telling Ally
he's in a bad place.
285
00:26:42,577 --> 00:26:45,163
He's dead, sir, at that point.
286
00:26:45,330 --> 00:26:47,291
Did you factor that
in your opinion then?
287
00:26:47,457 --> 00:26:51,879
The fact that she knows he's dead,
and in saying, "Ha, ha, yeah.
288
00:26:52,045 --> 00:26:54,882
But I don't know;
he's in a bad place right now."
289
00:26:55,048 --> 00:26:57,176
Did you factor that
into your opinion?
290
00:26:58,302 --> 00:26:59,803
Yes, I factored every...
291
00:26:59,970 --> 00:27:02,056
every bit of this
into my opinion, yes.
292
00:27:02,222 --> 00:27:04,808
So, she's telling
one person one thing
293
00:27:04,975 --> 00:27:07,019
and other people
other things, correct?
294
00:27:07,186 --> 00:27:08,854
Yes, she is.
295
00:27:09,021 --> 00:27:10,523
So now, the next morning,
296
00:27:10,689 --> 00:27:15,111
July 13th, 2014 at 9:02,
her mother texts her, correct?
297
00:27:15,277 --> 00:27:16,695
Yes.
298
00:27:16,862 --> 00:27:19,657
"Hi, Michelle.
What are you doing?" Right?
299
00:27:19,824 --> 00:27:21,826
Michelle responds,
"I'm at home."
300
00:27:21,993 --> 00:27:24,579
Mom says, "Doing what?"
301
00:27:24,745 --> 00:27:27,707
Michelle responds,
"Nothing, ha, ha."
302
00:27:27,874 --> 00:27:30,042
Doesn't tell her mother anything
about what's going on,
303
00:27:30,209 --> 00:27:31,836
- does she?
- No.
304
00:27:32,003 --> 00:27:34,839
-She only tells her friends, correct?
-Yes.
305
00:27:35,006 --> 00:27:37,675
These same friends
that she has been asking
306
00:27:37,842 --> 00:27:41,179
to hang out with her
for the past year
307
00:27:41,346 --> 00:27:43,640
and who routinely
don't hang out with her.
308
00:27:43,806 --> 00:27:46,935
-Isn't that true?
-Oh, I don't know that.
309
00:27:47,101 --> 00:27:48,895
Would you factor it
into your opinion,
310
00:27:49,062 --> 00:27:51,773
the fact that these...
the defendant wanted to hang out
311
00:27:51,940 --> 00:27:54,693
with her friends and her friends
didn't have time with her that summer?
312
00:27:54,859 --> 00:27:58,363
Could that impact
your opinion?
313
00:27:58,530 --> 00:28:01,408
That it turned her
into a crazy person
314
00:28:01,575 --> 00:28:03,201
who transformed her character,
315
00:28:03,368 --> 00:28:04,911
-became grandiose...
-No.
316
00:28:05,078 --> 00:28:07,330
...and encouraged a young man
whom she loved
317
00:28:07,497 --> 00:28:10,792
and had been working with a...
again and again to...
318
00:28:10,959 --> 00:28:13,045
to get better,
that she turned on him
319
00:28:13,211 --> 00:28:15,547
and started to encourage him to die?
320
00:28:15,714 --> 00:28:17,299
No, I don't think so.
321
00:28:17,466 --> 00:28:20,552
She's psychotic, deluded.
She's disturbed.
322
00:28:20,719 --> 00:28:24,807
Everything you're describing
is why I concluded
323
00:28:24,973 --> 00:28:27,810
she's got an involuntary
intoxication.
324
00:28:29,895 --> 00:28:32,564
-All right, just coming in. You ready?
-Yep.
325
00:28:32,731 --> 00:28:34,108
So far this morning
we've been hearing from
326
00:28:34,275 --> 00:28:36,569
Dr. Peter Breggin, that paints
a very different picture
327
00:28:36,735 --> 00:28:39,155
than what we saw last week
in those messages.
328
00:28:39,321 --> 00:28:43,284
And the biggest question here now
is will Michelle Carter testify?
329
00:28:43,451 --> 00:28:44,952
Are you gonna call Michelle
to the stand tomorrow?
330
00:28:45,119 --> 00:28:46,996
Uh. I have no comment.
We're going to proceed tomorrow
331
00:28:47,163 --> 00:28:49,040
with the continuation of the trial.
332
00:28:49,206 --> 00:28:51,584
Part of the drama of this case
333
00:28:51,751 --> 00:28:54,711
was the adult world confrontingwhat teenagers are like.
334
00:28:54,878 --> 00:28:57,506
All right, guys. Can you stop?
You've already got her picture.
335
00:28:58,715 --> 00:29:01,593
And I think for the parents
it must be sort of impossible
336
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,136
to understand what happened,
337
00:29:03,303 --> 00:29:06,723
'cause it's so farfrom what is, you know,
338
00:29:06,890 --> 00:29:10,769
acceptable human behavior,what she did in the last few weeks.
339
00:29:12,104 --> 00:29:16,066
And I think the biggest mysteryof the story is not...
340
00:29:16,233 --> 00:29:17,776
why Michelle Carter
did what she did,
341
00:29:17,943 --> 00:29:20,320
but what Michelle Carter
thought she was doing.
342
00:29:22,573 --> 00:29:24,575
What's reallyinteresting about this case
343
00:29:24,742 --> 00:29:26,535
is that we havethis very detailed record
344
00:29:26,702 --> 00:29:28,829
of what was said between them.
345
00:29:28,996 --> 00:29:31,790
This detailed record
of their minds coming together
346
00:29:31,957 --> 00:29:34,043
and interacting with each other.
347
00:29:34,210 --> 00:29:35,878
In the past we wouldn't have
had that record.
348
00:29:36,045 --> 00:29:39,131
All we would've had was
a person commits suicide
349
00:29:39,298 --> 00:29:41,759
and we're all left wondering
what happened.
350
00:29:42,843 --> 00:29:44,720
Are we talking aboutyoung psychopaths?
351
00:29:44,887 --> 00:29:48,099
Are we talking aboutnarcissistic personality disorders,
352
00:29:48,266 --> 00:29:49,642
borderline disorders?
353
00:29:49,809 --> 00:29:52,770
Are we just talking about
young, troubled kids
354
00:29:52,937 --> 00:29:56,232
who don't have a well-developed
frontal cortex
355
00:29:56,399 --> 00:29:58,192
and just don't have
the self-awareness
356
00:29:58,359 --> 00:30:01,029
and the ability to see
what they're doing?
357
00:30:01,195 --> 00:30:03,573
But now because we have thisrecord of this dialogue
358
00:30:03,740 --> 00:30:06,242
between them, we havethis opportunity to see
359
00:30:06,409 --> 00:30:08,661
what was going oninside their minds,
360
00:30:08,828 --> 00:30:12,540
inside that thought processbetween the two of them.
361
00:30:42,779 --> 00:30:46,033
The idea that this was a casewhere a girlfriend killed a boyfriend
362
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:47,743
is really weird.
363
00:30:47,910 --> 00:30:49,620
The way that I read it is...
364
00:30:49,787 --> 00:30:52,456
the relationship was much more
Michelle's fantasy
365
00:30:52,623 --> 00:30:56,043
and Michelle's idea
than it was Conrad's.
366
00:30:57,127 --> 00:31:01,423
Conrad was alternatelykind of mean to her,
367
00:31:01,590 --> 00:31:03,509
kind of sweet to her...
368
00:31:03,676 --> 00:31:07,304
kind of negging herfor most of the relationship.
369
00:31:09,432 --> 00:31:13,144
They really weirdly connected
on this slightly mean,
370
00:31:13,311 --> 00:31:15,730
slightly competitive level
that they both had.
371
00:31:19,692 --> 00:31:23,988
They had this kind of gamethat they would play together.
372
00:31:26,950 --> 00:31:28,368
They would finisheach other's sentences,
373
00:31:28,534 --> 00:31:31,663
they would play weird word gamesand free associations.
374
00:31:43,258 --> 00:31:45,677
And it's, like,kind of sexy, kind of weird,
375
00:31:45,844 --> 00:31:48,430
kind of excitingif you're a teenage boy.
376
00:31:50,432 --> 00:31:52,350
They both sort of likedthis kind of
377
00:31:52,517 --> 00:31:54,603
brinkmanship with each other.
378
00:32:01,943 --> 00:32:03,570
They talked a lot about
379
00:32:03,737 --> 00:32:06,990
"Let's meet, let's hang out.When are we going to hang out?"
380
00:32:07,157 --> 00:32:08,575
They'd come to the brinkof seeing each other
381
00:32:08,742 --> 00:32:10,160
and then they'd always back away.
382
00:32:10,327 --> 00:32:13,122
So, their whole relationship
was the text messages.
383
00:32:21,714 --> 00:32:25,176
The fact thatwe now all live our lives
384
00:32:25,342 --> 00:32:28,137
via smart phones
385
00:32:28,304 --> 00:32:31,766
is completely central to this case.
386
00:32:31,932 --> 00:32:35,102
It's every parent's worst nightmare.
387
00:32:36,562 --> 00:32:40,149
You have two teenagersconnecting in the most
388
00:32:40,316 --> 00:32:42,902
cataclysmic possible way.
389
00:32:44,779 --> 00:32:46,447
Conrad, he found someone
390
00:32:46,614 --> 00:32:50,034
who he could confidethese thoughts in.
391
00:32:50,201 --> 00:32:56,082
And Michelle found this accessto immediate sort of intimacy.
392
00:32:58,376 --> 00:33:00,587
When peopleare communicating through text,
393
00:33:00,753 --> 00:33:02,839
strange things can start to happen.
394
00:33:03,006 --> 00:33:05,592
You don't necessarily
experience the other person
395
00:33:05,759 --> 00:33:07,301
as another person.
396
00:33:07,468 --> 00:33:09,470
You can't see them,
you can't hear them,
397
00:33:09,636 --> 00:33:11,889
you can't see their body language.
398
00:33:13,265 --> 00:33:16,227
You have this voice with youall day long
399
00:33:16,393 --> 00:33:19,730
that will suddenly pop upand say things to you.
400
00:33:21,106 --> 00:33:22,983
I think in some wayspeople experience that
401
00:33:23,150 --> 00:33:24,693
as a voice in their head,
402
00:33:24,860 --> 00:33:27,905
almost as if it's likean internal hallucination.
403
00:33:29,490 --> 00:33:31,742
You're really interacting
with these characters
404
00:33:31,909 --> 00:33:35,746
inside your mind without really
understanding,
405
00:33:35,913 --> 00:33:37,665
on a more conscious, rational level,
406
00:33:37,832 --> 00:33:40,334
these text messages are coming
from another person
407
00:33:40,501 --> 00:33:42,545
with their own life
and their own thoughts
408
00:33:42,712 --> 00:33:44,672
and their own feelings.
409
00:33:50,803 --> 00:33:54,224
In some ways,the big moral failing from Michelle
410
00:33:54,390 --> 00:33:59,104
has to do with an eerie inability
to fully apprehend reality.
411
00:34:19,666 --> 00:34:22,002
There's one levelof the conversation
412
00:34:22,169 --> 00:34:25,589
that is a kid that's
gonna kill himself.
413
00:34:27,007 --> 00:34:30,761
And then there's another levelthat's a romantic fantasy.
414
00:35:18,935 --> 00:35:21,729
There is an amazingintensity to the messages
415
00:35:21,896 --> 00:35:25,942
that's totally incommensuratewith the relationship they had before.
416
00:35:28,945 --> 00:35:32,282
And what I found is thatthere was all of these references
417
00:35:32,449 --> 00:35:35,911
to different TV shows,to movies, to songs...
418
00:35:37,913 --> 00:35:40,749
But by far, by far
the most common source
419
00:35:40,916 --> 00:35:43,418
for that kind of language was Glee.
420
00:35:45,420 --> 00:35:49,216
Glee is a TV show that is setin an American high school
421
00:35:49,383 --> 00:35:53,512
and the stars are Lea Micheleand Cory Monteith,
422
00:35:53,679 --> 00:35:55,097
who are not only the starsof the show
423
00:35:55,264 --> 00:35:56,974
but were a couple in real life.
424
00:35:57,140 --> 00:36:00,644
And Michelle was obsessedwith Lea Michele.
425
00:36:03,230 --> 00:36:06,400
So, often when she was writingto Conrad or writing about Conrad,
426
00:36:06,567 --> 00:36:11,739
she would borrow from text
that was in this TV show.
427
00:36:11,906 --> 00:36:14,533
You are my first love.
428
00:36:14,700 --> 00:36:21,290
And I want more than anything
for you to be my last.
429
00:36:27,463 --> 00:36:29,507
And I think she connected
with Lea Michele
430
00:36:29,674 --> 00:36:33,136
on kind of a profound level
that went beyond
431
00:36:33,302 --> 00:36:36,889
what a normal teen identifying
with a star...
432
00:36:37,056 --> 00:36:39,559
you know, might feel like.
433
00:36:39,726 --> 00:36:42,603
A star of the popular show Glee
found dead
434
00:36:42,770 --> 00:36:45,356
in his hotel roomin Vancouver. The body...
435
00:36:45,523 --> 00:36:50,570
In 2013, Cory Monteithoverdosed in a hotel room and died.
436
00:36:50,737 --> 00:36:52,614
This was a year,
basically, to the day,
437
00:36:52,781 --> 00:36:54,324
before Conrad died.
438
00:36:54,491 --> 00:36:57,410
The cast of Glee
puts on a tribute episode.
439
00:37:01,331 --> 00:37:04,000
Lea Michele sings a songin his honor
440
00:37:04,167 --> 00:37:05,669
and everyone's devastated
441
00:37:05,835 --> 00:37:08,088
because the character has diedin the show.
442
00:37:08,255 --> 00:37:11,633
So, it's an incredibly eeriepiece of television, because...
443
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,886
you know that this actual actor
OD'd in a hotel
444
00:37:15,053 --> 00:37:17,931
somewhere in Canada,
but in the world of the show,
445
00:37:18,098 --> 00:37:20,641
this football quarterback
has died tragically
446
00:37:20,808 --> 00:37:24,854
and everyone is singing
pop songs to mourn him.
447
00:37:25,897 --> 00:37:29,942
And Michelle introduces that to Conradin October 2013.
448
00:37:32,403 --> 00:37:35,156
Michelle says, "I just want youto know how much I love you
449
00:37:35,323 --> 00:37:38,493
and it really made me think of whatit would be like if you weren't here."
450
00:37:38,660 --> 00:37:41,412
Totally out of the blue
from what was happening.
451
00:37:45,917 --> 00:37:48,920
It's sort of the first momentwhere you realize that Michelle
452
00:37:49,087 --> 00:37:51,047
has, like, a completely other story
453
00:37:51,214 --> 00:37:54,050
that's going on that has nothing
to do with Conrad specifically.
454
00:37:55,635 --> 00:37:59,556
But the idea thatshe would be the person in Glee
455
00:37:59,723 --> 00:38:02,017
who had a boyfriendwho was the quarterback
456
00:38:02,184 --> 00:38:03,935
who had sort of tragically died,
457
00:38:04,102 --> 00:38:08,982
I think was kind of more real to her
than it probably is to most people.
458
00:38:10,108 --> 00:38:13,946
-I had it all planned out.
-Now what?
459
00:38:15,364 --> 00:38:18,992
-I don't know, something different.
-Maybe something better.
460
00:38:19,159 --> 00:38:21,328
I just... I don't think
that that's possible.
461
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:24,665
He was my person.
462
00:38:31,922 --> 00:38:34,425
One of the eerie partsof the text messages
463
00:38:34,592 --> 00:38:37,845
that Michelle sent to her friendswhere she quotes from Lea Michele,
464
00:38:38,012 --> 00:38:40,598
is that they don't all come from Glee;
465
00:38:40,765 --> 00:38:43,726
they come from interviews
that the real actress is giving
466
00:38:43,893 --> 00:38:48,481
about her real dead boyfriend
to real talk show hosts.
467
00:38:48,648 --> 00:38:50,900
I literally lived
every day of my life
468
00:38:51,067 --> 00:38:53,820
feeling like the luckiest girl
in the whole world.
469
00:38:53,986 --> 00:38:56,614
I just... I just thought
he was the greatest man.
470
00:39:01,786 --> 00:39:03,913
This is weird.
This is really weird.
471
00:39:08,418 --> 00:39:13,465
I think it translates to that Michellehad little if any idea of who she was.
472
00:39:13,631 --> 00:39:17,427
That she identifiedextremely strongly
473
00:39:17,594 --> 00:39:20,096
with this other world,this other life.
474
00:39:38,240 --> 00:39:41,618
Alice was a teammateof Michelle's
475
00:39:41,785 --> 00:39:45,831
on a travel softball teamin the spring of 2012.
476
00:39:47,082 --> 00:39:49,835
They instantly became
incredibly close.
477
00:39:50,002 --> 00:39:53,130
They went to, uh,
each other's houses,
478
00:39:53,297 --> 00:39:56,091
they slept over, they took
a team trip to Montreal
479
00:39:56,258 --> 00:40:00,387
and when other, uh, kids on the team
were going out to eat as a group,
480
00:40:00,554 --> 00:40:02,097
they would kind of sneak off
and eat together,
481
00:40:02,264 --> 00:40:04,308
just the two of them.
482
00:40:05,434 --> 00:40:07,728
It was an intense teen friendship
483
00:40:07,895 --> 00:40:10,731
that was almost likea love affair for Michelle.
484
00:40:32,295 --> 00:40:33,796
Kind of abruptly,
485
00:40:33,963 --> 00:40:35,715
right around the time
that Michelle met Conrad,
486
00:40:35,882 --> 00:40:37,926
Alice cut off contact with her.
487
00:40:41,888 --> 00:40:45,975
And in 2014, in the summer...
488
00:40:47,310 --> 00:40:51,982
Michelle, for some reason,
starts really missing Alice.
489
00:40:52,148 --> 00:40:54,734
And this is all happening
right around the time
490
00:40:54,901 --> 00:40:56,820
that Conrad is really suicidal.
491
00:41:04,578 --> 00:41:09,458
It seems to me that a lot of theemotional logic of the case
492
00:41:09,625 --> 00:41:11,752
really has more to do withthe friendship with Alice
493
00:41:11,919 --> 00:41:14,338
than it has to do withthe relationship with Conrad.
494
00:41:22,972 --> 00:41:25,015
I called Aliceand I said, you know,
495
00:41:25,182 --> 00:41:26,850
"I want to interview youbecause it sounds like
496
00:41:27,017 --> 00:41:29,270
Michelle was in love with you."
497
00:41:29,436 --> 00:41:31,939
And I met Alice and her mother.
498
00:41:33,189 --> 00:41:37,277
The reason they were meeting me
was to refute exactly that story.
499
00:41:37,444 --> 00:41:40,697
So, they were meeting to say,
500
00:41:40,864 --> 00:41:43,241
"Michelle is a sociopath,
and she made this all up.
501
00:41:43,408 --> 00:41:46,703
There was never anything physical
about the relationship."
502
00:41:47,746 --> 00:41:51,833
And if I didn't feel for Michellein any moment before that,
503
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:53,835
in that moment I felt...
504
00:41:54,002 --> 00:41:56,588
a sympathy for how alone she was.
505
00:41:59,216 --> 00:42:02,010
She had this desire for thingsto be more intense,
506
00:42:02,177 --> 00:42:04,638
more like storiesthan they really were.
507
00:42:15,107 --> 00:42:16,609
She didn't live in reality;
508
00:42:16,775 --> 00:42:22,281
like, she lived in some kind
of fantasy... I think.
509
00:42:22,448 --> 00:42:26,660
But she's just not
a well person, so...
510
00:42:27,870 --> 00:42:32,124
How can you be that angry
or how can you be that...
511
00:42:36,170 --> 00:42:37,547
when someone is not...
512
00:42:39,006 --> 00:42:40,716
She's not well.
513
00:42:40,883 --> 00:42:43,177
That's all I say.
She's not well.
514
00:43:09,371 --> 00:43:12,499
The pattern that would happenin the last few weeks of Conrad's life
515
00:43:12,666 --> 00:43:16,002
is Conrad would say,"I'm gonna do it tonight."
516
00:43:16,169 --> 00:43:18,505
Then the next morning
he would be alive.
517
00:43:18,672 --> 00:43:22,008
Then a few days later he would say,
"Okay, I'm ready to do it tonight.
518
00:43:22,175 --> 00:43:23,844
I'm gonna do it,"
and then the next morning,
519
00:43:24,011 --> 00:43:25,721
he would be alive.
520
00:43:55,209 --> 00:43:58,129
July 12th, when Conrad dies,
521
00:43:58,295 --> 00:44:00,172
there's a kind of reality flicker,
522
00:44:00,339 --> 00:44:04,760
where it's not entirely clearthat it's actually happened.
523
00:44:18,983 --> 00:44:20,652
I'll tell you somethingreally weird.
524
00:44:20,818 --> 00:44:23,446
Five days before Conrad died,
Michelle goes to a movie theater
525
00:44:23,613 --> 00:44:25,365
and sees The Fault in Our Stars.
526
00:44:25,532 --> 00:44:28,535
And at the climax of the movie,
527
00:44:28,701 --> 00:44:30,495
the boy, Gus,
528
00:44:30,662 --> 00:44:34,332
is dying in a gas station in a Jeep.
529
00:44:34,499 --> 00:44:38,253
And he calls his girlfriendfor help.
530
00:44:38,420 --> 00:44:41,715
-Augustus.
-Hazel Grace.
531
00:44:41,882 --> 00:44:45,802
Hi. Oh, my God, hi.
Hi. I love you.
532
00:44:45,969 --> 00:44:48,638
And she calls the policeand he gets into an ambulance.
533
00:44:50,057 --> 00:44:52,351
So, it doesn't seem implausibleto me
534
00:44:52,517 --> 00:44:56,605
that there were other storiesin Michelle's mind
535
00:44:56,772 --> 00:45:00,651
that reminded her of what washappening at that moment.
536
00:45:00,818 --> 00:45:05,280
And I think the question iswhether or not
537
00:45:05,447 --> 00:45:08,075
she was kind of writingsome story in her head
538
00:45:08,242 --> 00:45:09,952
or writing some moviethat for some reason
539
00:45:10,119 --> 00:45:13,289
had to end with him dying.
540
00:45:13,455 --> 00:45:18,085
Or whether she literally hasno idea what she's done.
541
00:45:23,507 --> 00:45:28,054
What is obvious to meis that when
542
00:45:28,220 --> 00:45:32,808
he really needed someoneto understand how serious it was,
543
00:45:32,975 --> 00:45:38,731
and to go over his headto the cops, to his mother,
544
00:45:38,898 --> 00:45:40,400
she wasn't that person.
545
00:45:40,566 --> 00:45:45,196
And that's her kind of tragic failing.
546
00:45:47,322 --> 00:45:51,952
She, who wanted so badlyto have a best friend
547
00:45:52,119 --> 00:45:54,663
or someone she could sort ofhave this intense,
548
00:45:54,830 --> 00:45:57,082
dyadic affair with,
549
00:45:57,249 --> 00:45:58,667
had the opportunity to do that
550
00:45:58,834 --> 00:46:02,171
with this kid who that night
needed someone
551
00:46:02,338 --> 00:46:06,467
to be his friend and to say,"You are being fucking crazy
552
00:46:06,634 --> 00:46:09,762
and I'm calling the police."And...
553
00:46:09,929 --> 00:46:12,598
she didn't do it.
554
00:46:50,428 --> 00:46:52,305
"His death is my fault.
555
00:46:52,472 --> 00:46:54,975
Like, honestly,
I could've stopped him.
556
00:46:55,141 --> 00:46:57,686
I was on the phone with him
and he got out of the car
557
00:46:57,852 --> 00:47:00,939
because it was working.
And he got scared
558
00:47:01,106 --> 00:47:04,025
and I fucking told him
to get back in, Sam,
559
00:47:04,192 --> 00:47:07,946
because I knew he would do it
all over again the next day.
560
00:47:08,113 --> 00:47:11,616
And I couldn't have him live that way,
the way he was living, anymore.
561
00:47:11,783 --> 00:47:15,579
I couldn't do it.
I wouldn't let him."
562
00:47:15,746 --> 00:47:17,831
Those were her words, Your Honor.
563
00:47:17,998 --> 00:47:21,418
She says to her friend,
"If I had done something,
564
00:47:21,585 --> 00:47:24,922
if I had just told him
that I loved him,
565
00:47:25,089 --> 00:47:27,174
he would still be alive."
566
00:47:27,341 --> 00:47:29,176
Your Honor, this is a suicide,
567
00:47:29,343 --> 00:47:31,595
as I said in my opening
statement, and I say now.
568
00:47:31,762 --> 00:47:35,349
What we're dealing with
is a suicide and not a homicide.
569
00:47:35,516 --> 00:47:38,018
And this is the government's burden
570
00:47:38,185 --> 00:47:42,440
to prove that it was a homicide,
a manslaughter under the elements.
571
00:47:42,606 --> 00:47:45,026
Proof, not by a probable cause,
572
00:47:45,192 --> 00:47:46,569
not by clear
and convincing evidence,
573
00:47:46,736 --> 00:47:49,447
but proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
574
00:47:49,614 --> 00:47:53,284
If you go through and you look
at who actually created
575
00:47:53,451 --> 00:47:55,620
this suicidal situation,
576
00:47:55,786 --> 00:47:58,956
he brought her,
with all of her baggage,
577
00:47:59,123 --> 00:48:03,586
along for this sad journey of his
to eventually take his own life.
578
00:48:03,753 --> 00:48:05,463
Despite his issues,
579
00:48:05,630 --> 00:48:08,341
Conrad Roy was a very
self-aware young man.
580
00:48:08,508 --> 00:48:11,094
He knew when he needed help.
581
00:48:11,261 --> 00:48:13,304
You know what he said was
the one reason
582
00:48:13,471 --> 00:48:16,641
that he wanted to live?
His family.
583
00:48:16,808 --> 00:48:19,811
Before the defendant got
her hooks into him
584
00:48:19,978 --> 00:48:24,024
and started telling him to die
every day, he was hopeful.
585
00:48:24,190 --> 00:48:28,028
This is a gentlemanwho was sadly subjected
586
00:48:28,194 --> 00:48:29,863
to domestic violence.
587
00:48:30,030 --> 00:48:33,992
In fact, he tells that he had
daily intrusive thoughts
588
00:48:34,159 --> 00:48:35,994
of witnessing domestic violence.
589
00:48:36,161 --> 00:48:38,205
Those are his words
he's telling his therapist
590
00:48:38,372 --> 00:48:40,165
in the counselors
in the records, Your Honor.
591
00:48:40,332 --> 00:48:42,876
During the days
leading up to this, Your Honor,
592
00:48:43,043 --> 00:48:46,880
he told her, "I'm scared.
I don't have it in me.
593
00:48:47,047 --> 00:48:50,217
Another day wouldn't hurt."
594
00:48:50,384 --> 00:48:53,470
Every time he came up
with an excuse not to do it,
595
00:48:53,637 --> 00:48:55,889
she kicked his feet out
right from under him
596
00:48:56,056 --> 00:49:00,060
and told him why it didn't matter,
why he still needed to die.
597
00:49:00,227 --> 00:49:03,647
Mr. Roy himself
stated to Michelle Carter,
598
00:49:03,814 --> 00:49:05,191
"I want to die."
599
00:49:05,357 --> 00:49:08,319
Straight up. Those words.
"I want to die."
600
00:49:08,486 --> 00:49:11,363
To turn around and say
she's bullying him
601
00:49:11,530 --> 00:49:14,492
or she got him to do something
he didn't want to do,
602
00:49:14,659 --> 00:49:17,745
he's asking her,
"You want to help?"
603
00:49:17,912 --> 00:49:20,373
His words. "You want to help?"
604
00:49:20,539 --> 00:49:23,209
He doesn't tell her, "Stop this.
605
00:49:23,376 --> 00:49:27,630
Don't call me, lose my number,
stop texting me, block call,"
606
00:49:27,797 --> 00:49:31,050
nothing of the like.
He continues to use her
607
00:49:31,217 --> 00:49:34,512
for his support
to carry out his plan.
608
00:49:39,350 --> 00:49:41,102
He goes down to K-mart.
609
00:49:41,269 --> 00:49:45,023
He doesn't do a U-turn.Not seeking any help.
610
00:49:45,190 --> 00:49:48,276
Police department down the roada half a mile.
611
00:49:48,443 --> 00:49:51,279
He has his cell phone with him.What's he do?
612
00:49:51,446 --> 00:49:53,782
He actually... In the phone records,
he calls Michelle Carter.
613
00:49:53,949 --> 00:49:55,700
The first phone call
right there, he calls her.
614
00:49:55,867 --> 00:49:57,244
He doesn't call 911.
615
00:49:57,410 --> 00:49:59,537
Doesn't call anybody else,
he calls Michelle.
616
00:49:59,703 --> 00:50:01,163
I suggest why?
Because he knows
617
00:50:01,330 --> 00:50:04,333
that she is encouraging
and supporting his plan.
618
00:50:07,878 --> 00:50:09,797
She created the harm, Your Honor,
619
00:50:09,964 --> 00:50:13,301
when she told himto get back in the car.
620
00:50:13,467 --> 00:50:16,095
He was scared.
She knows he's gonna die
621
00:50:16,262 --> 00:50:19,766
and she says, "I could've done
something to stop it,
622
00:50:19,932 --> 00:50:23,728
and if I had, he would still
be alive today."
623
00:50:23,895 --> 00:50:27,357
She, by her own admission,
she caused his death.
624
00:50:27,523 --> 00:50:31,986
She knew at that moment
he did not want to die.
625
00:50:32,153 --> 00:50:35,990
The Commonwealth is conflating
this idea of "he was scared"
626
00:50:36,157 --> 00:50:38,243
as "he didn't want to do it."
627
00:50:38,410 --> 00:50:40,995
That's what they're doing;
they're saying he... he told...
628
00:50:41,162 --> 00:50:44,249
Michelle told a friend that
Conrad got out of the car
629
00:50:44,416 --> 00:50:46,209
and he was scared
because it was working.
630
00:50:46,376 --> 00:50:48,295
So, Conrad apparently knew
it was working
631
00:50:48,461 --> 00:50:50,005
and yet chose to get back in.
632
00:50:50,172 --> 00:50:52,048
But because he was scared or afraid,
633
00:50:52,215 --> 00:50:54,342
they want to basically
replace that word,
634
00:50:54,509 --> 00:50:57,763
that somehow, therefore, after that,
635
00:50:57,929 --> 00:51:01,016
by going back in the car,
that wasn't his own decision.
636
00:51:01,183 --> 00:51:03,435
He chose to get in that car.
637
00:51:03,602 --> 00:51:06,021
He chose to breathe in the fumes.
638
00:51:06,188 --> 00:51:07,648
There's no evidence
that Michelle Carter
639
00:51:07,814 --> 00:51:12,027
has any physical actions
whatsoever in this case.
640
00:51:12,194 --> 00:51:15,197
It was all of his physical activity.
641
00:51:15,364 --> 00:51:17,866
Did he get back in the car?
Yes.
642
00:51:18,033 --> 00:51:19,994
But she was the cause of that,
Your Honor;
643
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:23,831
she ordered him back in that car
knowing what would happen.
644
00:51:23,998 --> 00:51:25,416
It's a new day and age, Your Honor.
645
00:51:25,583 --> 00:51:27,793
And the phones that we have now
646
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:31,589
allow you to be
virtually present with somebody.
647
00:51:31,756 --> 00:51:34,884
People fall in love
on the Internet and via text.
648
00:51:35,051 --> 00:51:38,471
People bully via text
and the Internet.
649
00:51:38,638 --> 00:51:42,767
And you can encourage someone
to die via text
650
00:51:42,934 --> 00:51:46,312
and you can commit a crime via text.
651
00:51:46,479 --> 00:51:49,690
She absolutely knew
what she was doing.
652
00:51:49,857 --> 00:51:54,237
She absolutely knew it was wrong
and she absolutely
653
00:51:54,404 --> 00:51:56,614
caused the death
of this 18-year-old boy.
654
00:51:56,781 --> 00:51:58,616
And I ask you to find her guilty.
655
00:52:13,214 --> 00:52:15,634
This world is sick today,
in my opinion.
656
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:17,802
No one has any morals.
657
00:52:17,969 --> 00:52:19,888
Lack of character.
658
00:52:20,055 --> 00:52:23,475
Uh. I just find it... I just
find it very troubling today.
659
00:52:23,642 --> 00:52:25,602
Because the right thing to do
would've been for her
660
00:52:25,769 --> 00:52:27,688
to go get him help.
661
00:52:27,854 --> 00:52:30,899
He wanted to get out of the car,
I believe. He did get out.
662
00:52:31,066 --> 00:52:34,820
She told him to get back in,
quote, unquote, and do it.
663
00:52:34,987 --> 00:52:38,157
I'm sorry, but she...
she deserves manslaughter.
664
00:52:38,323 --> 00:52:39,783
Absolutely.
665
00:52:39,950 --> 00:52:42,411
I honestly think
it was foul what she did.
666
00:52:42,578 --> 00:52:45,497
She really shouldn't have done that.
I mean, if you really love somebody,
667
00:52:45,664 --> 00:52:47,541
you don't encourage them
to kill themselves.
668
00:52:47,708 --> 00:52:49,752
That's just...
That's absolutely crazy.
669
00:52:49,919 --> 00:52:51,295
It's kind of like murder.
670
00:52:51,462 --> 00:52:53,172
it's basically murder,
is how I see it in my eyes.
671
00:52:53,339 --> 00:52:54,798
It's basically murder.
672
00:52:54,965 --> 00:52:57,635
She was pretty much saying,
"Just do it."
673
00:52:57,802 --> 00:52:59,428
But there's nothing
illegal about that.
674
00:52:59,595 --> 00:53:01,097
And then didn't he stop,
675
00:53:01,263 --> 00:53:02,640
and then she said,
"What are you doing?
676
00:53:02,807 --> 00:53:05,059
Get back in the car.
You already have it all set up.
677
00:53:05,226 --> 00:53:06,852
You know, just end it already."
678
00:53:07,019 --> 00:53:08,396
Wow.
679
00:53:08,563 --> 00:53:10,731
But that's more of
a moral thing, I think.
680
00:53:10,898 --> 00:53:12,275
But there's nothing illegal
about it.
681
00:53:12,441 --> 00:53:13,818
-There's actually nothing wrong with it.
-No, no.
682
00:53:13,985 --> 00:53:15,403
She's not guilty.
She didn't do anything illegal.
683
00:53:15,570 --> 00:53:18,031
-No, she didn't...
-It was wrong, but it's not illegal.
684
00:53:18,197 --> 00:53:19,949
That's like me telling you
to jump off a bridge.
685
00:53:20,116 --> 00:53:22,660
-If you jump off it, is it my fault?
-Yeah.
686
00:53:22,827 --> 00:53:26,289
She would've said to him,
"Jump... Jump over the bridge."
687
00:53:26,456 --> 00:53:28,416
He would've done it,
so therefore it's...
688
00:53:28,583 --> 00:53:30,376
it is her fault.
689
00:53:30,543 --> 00:53:33,546
How can this woman be held
responsible for something that
690
00:53:33,713 --> 00:53:35,131
she in essence did not do
691
00:53:35,298 --> 00:53:37,592
and he had free will
over his actions?
692
00:53:37,759 --> 00:53:39,594
It's mind boggling to me.
693
00:53:39,761 --> 00:53:41,972
If she was telling him to
rob a bank and he robbed a bank,
694
00:53:42,138 --> 00:53:45,475
is she responsible for this
when he went in and...
695
00:53:45,642 --> 00:53:48,436
and did those actions voluntarily?
I don't know.
696
00:53:48,603 --> 00:53:51,314
I just don't see how you can
punish this girl
697
00:53:51,481 --> 00:53:53,150
the rest of her life for this.
698
00:53:54,276 --> 00:53:57,195
My wife and I talk about this
and, you know,
699
00:53:57,362 --> 00:54:00,324
she thinks in one direction
and I think in the other.
700
00:54:00,490 --> 00:54:02,534
That's 'cause we're married,
go figure.
701
00:54:02,701 --> 00:54:06,330
She thinks it's more
the responsibility of the victim
702
00:54:06,497 --> 00:54:10,125
than the responsibility of the...
the young lady, you know?
703
00:54:10,292 --> 00:54:12,418
And I can see her point.
704
00:54:12,585 --> 00:54:19,509
I think it was more immoral
or, uh, unethical, you know,
705
00:54:19,676 --> 00:54:21,970
to not report that to somebody.
706
00:54:22,136 --> 00:54:24,097
I don't know.
I guess it's on the judge,
707
00:54:24,264 --> 00:54:26,975
how he's gonna...
how he's gonna rule it.
708
00:54:27,142 --> 00:54:30,437
Certainly wouldn't want
to date her next.
709
00:54:37,319 --> 00:54:40,030
Breaking news:
The judge has reached a verdict
710
00:54:40,197 --> 00:54:42,240
in the Michelle Carter
manslaughter trial.
711
00:54:42,407 --> 00:54:46,745
This is a highly anticipated decisionof whether Michelle Carter is guilty
712
00:54:46,912 --> 00:54:51,291
of involuntary manslaughterin her boyfriend, Conrad Roy's death.
713
00:54:51,458 --> 00:54:53,168
-Come on, get out of there.
-Come on.
714
00:54:53,335 --> 00:54:54,920
Get out of there.
715
00:54:55,087 --> 00:54:58,715
Judge Lawrence Moniztook just two days to decide this.
716
00:54:58,882 --> 00:55:01,093
He will announce it at 11:00 AM.
717
00:55:06,473 --> 00:55:09,602
Michelle Carter's fatenow in the hands of the judge,
718
00:55:09,768 --> 00:55:11,562
who will render the ultimate verdict.
719
00:55:11,729 --> 00:55:14,023
And at the center of this trial,
720
00:55:14,190 --> 00:55:18,611
whether it's a crimeto tell someone to commit suicide.
721
00:55:18,778 --> 00:55:20,529
Good afternoon, everyone.
722
00:55:20,696 --> 00:55:22,656
Good afternoon, Your Honor.
723
00:55:24,700 --> 00:55:26,786
The law does not require
724
00:55:26,953 --> 00:55:30,998
that any explanation
as to a verdict be given.
725
00:55:31,165 --> 00:55:36,170
Nonetheless, I am of the opinion
726
00:55:36,337 --> 00:55:42,510
that some explanation
of my verdicts is warranted.
727
00:55:42,677 --> 00:55:45,680
I have essentially divided
the evidence in this case
728
00:55:45,847 --> 00:55:48,558
into three components.
729
00:55:48,725 --> 00:55:50,435
The first component
730
00:55:50,602 --> 00:55:56,524
comprises roughly the period
of June 29th, 2014
731
00:55:56,691 --> 00:55:58,985
through the ending of the text messages
732
00:55:59,152 --> 00:56:06,368
between Miss Carter and Mr. Roy
on or about July 12th, 2014.
733
00:56:07,494 --> 00:56:11,748
The second period commences
immediately thereafter,
734
00:56:11,915 --> 00:56:16,586
through July 13th, 2014.
735
00:56:18,547 --> 00:56:20,632
This court first finds
736
00:56:20,799 --> 00:56:22,759
that the Commonwealth has proven
737
00:56:22,926 --> 00:56:25,596
beyond a reasonable doubt
738
00:56:25,762 --> 00:56:28,390
that the actions taken
by Miss Carter
739
00:56:28,557 --> 00:56:33,604
as to the period from June 30th
to July 12th
740
00:56:33,771 --> 00:56:38,567
constituted wanton
and reckless conduct by her,
741
00:56:39,902 --> 00:56:44,073
and serious disregard
of the well-being of Mr. Roy.
742
00:56:46,409 --> 00:56:52,415
The Commonwealth has not proven,
as to that time period,
743
00:56:52,581 --> 00:56:56,043
that said reckless
or wanton behavior
744
00:56:56,210 --> 00:56:59,130
caused the death of Mr. Roy.
745
00:57:02,091 --> 00:57:04,427
Mr. Roy was struggling
with his issues
746
00:57:04,594 --> 00:57:07,805
and took significant actions
of his own.
747
00:57:09,098 --> 00:57:12,143
He secured the generator.
He secured the water pump.
748
00:57:12,310 --> 00:57:15,563
He researched how to fix
the generator.
749
00:57:17,982 --> 00:57:21,778
He located his vehicle
in an unnoticeable area
750
00:57:21,945 --> 00:57:25,699
and commenced his attempt
by starting the pump.
751
00:57:28,118 --> 00:57:33,999
However, he breaks that chain
of self-causation
752
00:57:35,750 --> 00:57:37,586
by exiting the vehicle.
753
00:57:39,045 --> 00:57:42,424
He takes himself out of
the toxic environment
754
00:57:42,591 --> 00:57:44,301
that it has become.
755
00:57:45,844 --> 00:57:50,557
When Miss Carter realizes that
Mr. Roy has exited the truck,
756
00:57:51,725 --> 00:57:54,978
she instructs him to get back
into the truck,
757
00:57:56,814 --> 00:58:01,318
which she has reason to know
is or is becoming
758
00:58:01,485 --> 00:58:05,823
a toxic environment
inconsistent with human life.
759
00:58:07,950 --> 00:58:11,078
This court finds where one's action
760
00:58:11,245 --> 00:58:14,749
create a life-threatening risk
to another,
761
00:58:14,915 --> 00:58:18,002
there is a duty
to take reasonable steps
762
00:58:18,169 --> 00:58:21,130
to alleviate the risk.
763
00:58:22,131 --> 00:58:25,175
The reckless failure
to fulfill this duty
764
00:58:25,342 --> 00:58:28,303
can result in a charge
of manslaughter.
765
00:58:30,180 --> 00:58:33,392
Knowing that Mr. Roy
is in the truck,
766
00:58:33,558 --> 00:58:36,979
knowing the condition of the truck,
767
00:58:37,145 --> 00:58:39,773
Miss Carter takes no action
768
00:58:41,066 --> 00:58:44,403
in the furtherance of the duty
that she has created
769
00:58:44,570 --> 00:58:47,781
by instructing Mr. Roy
to get back into the truck.
770
00:58:49,491 --> 00:58:53,037
Consequently, this court
has found that the Commonwealth
771
00:58:53,203 --> 00:58:55,414
has proven beyond a reasonable doubt
772
00:58:55,581 --> 00:59:00,711
that Miss Carter's actions
and also her failure to act
773
00:59:00,878 --> 00:59:04,256
where she had a self-created
duty to Mr. Roy,
774
00:59:04,423 --> 00:59:08,803
constituted each and all
wanton and reckless conduct.
775
00:59:09,887 --> 00:59:12,014
And this court further finds
that the Commonwealth
776
00:59:12,181 --> 00:59:14,558
has proven beyond a reasonable doubt
777
00:59:14,725 --> 00:59:19,230
that said conduct
caused the death of Mr. Roy.
778
00:59:19,397 --> 00:59:21,691
Miss Carter, please stand.
779
00:59:24,026 --> 00:59:28,031
This court,
having reviewed the evidence
780
00:59:28,197 --> 00:59:30,867
and applied the law thereto,
781
00:59:31,034 --> 00:59:36,080
now finds you guilty
on the indictment charging you
782
00:59:36,247 --> 00:59:41,711
with the involuntary manslaughter
of the person Conrad Roy III.
783
00:59:41,878 --> 00:59:43,296
You may be seated.
784
00:59:43,463 --> 00:59:47,634
That verdict is now recorded
and it is in writing as well.
785
00:59:47,801 --> 00:59:51,221
This matter will stand
continued to August 3rd
786
00:59:51,388 --> 00:59:53,640
for a sentencing hearing.
Thank you very much.
787
00:59:53,807 --> 00:59:55,392
All rise.
788
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:06,278
Very, very disappointed
with the outcome,
789
01:00:06,445 --> 01:00:08,697
however, because the case
is still pending,
790
01:00:08,864 --> 01:00:10,699
beyond saying I'm disappointed,
791
01:00:10,866 --> 01:00:14,077
I'm not gonna comment any further,
so thank you all.
792
01:00:14,244 --> 01:00:17,081
-Do you have an appeal plan?
-Are you surprised though?
793
01:00:28,175 --> 01:00:29,552
Good afternoon.
794
01:00:29,718 --> 01:00:32,930
Since we still have to return to court
for the sentencing phase of this case,
795
01:00:33,097 --> 01:00:35,099
I will keep my comments brief.
796
01:00:35,266 --> 01:00:36,809
Although we are very pleased
with the verdict,
797
01:00:36,976 --> 01:00:39,145
in reality, there are no winners
here today.
798
01:00:39,312 --> 01:00:42,315
Conrad, an 18-year-old boy, is dead,
and the young woman...
799
01:00:42,481 --> 01:00:45,151
a young woman is now convicted
of causing his death.
800
01:00:45,318 --> 01:00:47,111
Two families have been torn apart
801
01:00:47,278 --> 01:00:49,822
and will be affected by this
for years to come.
802
01:00:49,989 --> 01:00:51,365
This was a unique case
803
01:00:51,532 --> 01:00:54,243
that dealt with a lot of important
issues in our society today.
804
01:00:54,410 --> 01:00:56,829
But in the end,
the case was really about
805
01:00:56,996 --> 01:00:59,290
one young man and one young woman
806
01:00:59,457 --> 01:01:02,502
who were brought together
by tragic circumstances.
807
01:01:11,302 --> 01:01:13,555
What do you want
the sentence to be?
808
01:01:16,558 --> 01:01:17,976
What do you want
the sentence to be?
809
01:01:18,143 --> 01:01:19,853
Are you satisfied
with what happened though?
810
01:01:20,020 --> 01:01:21,646
Do you feel like you get some relief?
811
01:01:21,813 --> 01:01:24,774
Mr. Roy, what kind of relief
are you feeling right now?
812
01:01:28,945 --> 01:01:30,530
- Come on.
- Careful behind you.
813
01:01:34,493 --> 01:01:36,662
Would you like
to say anything to the judge?
814
01:01:36,828 --> 01:01:38,747
Justice for Conrad.
815
01:01:42,417 --> 01:01:45,337
-Hey guys. tell us how you feel?
-No comment.
816
01:01:45,504 --> 01:01:47,297
Come on, get the door unlocked.
817
01:01:47,464 --> 01:01:50,843
Can you tell us what you think
about this verdict?
818
01:01:52,595 --> 01:01:55,431
Can you just tell us what you
think about the verdict?
819
01:01:55,598 --> 01:01:57,224
Do you feel like
justice was served here?
820
01:01:57,391 --> 01:01:59,518
Watch out. Excuse me.
821
01:02:10,821 --> 01:02:14,575
There are many verdicts
that you'll see,
822
01:02:14,742 --> 01:02:16,744
whether I've been involved
in them or, you know,
823
01:02:16,911 --> 01:02:19,163
many cases that I haven't
been involved, you'll say,
824
01:02:19,330 --> 01:02:22,166
"Well, this prosecution really
has the law on their side.
825
01:02:22,333 --> 01:02:24,210
They have the facts on their side.
826
01:02:24,377 --> 01:02:26,796
I don't think that
that was the case here.
827
01:02:26,963 --> 01:02:28,715
I think, you know, people...
828
01:02:28,881 --> 01:02:31,426
There are plenty of people
who are still scratching their head,
829
01:02:31,593 --> 01:02:33,219
thinking, "How is this a crime?"
830
01:02:33,386 --> 01:02:37,681
How could the judge do what he did
and find her guilty on this evidence?
831
01:02:37,848 --> 01:02:42,019
In rendering his verdict,he went so far as to say
832
01:02:42,186 --> 01:02:46,649
up until the point in time
that Conrad was in the truck
833
01:02:46,815 --> 01:02:51,237
with the water pump going,
it was on Conrad Roy;
834
01:02:51,403 --> 01:02:53,030
Michelle would not have
been found guilty.
835
01:02:53,197 --> 01:02:56,117
Then it turned on a dimeand said, however,
836
01:02:56,283 --> 01:03:00,705
when he got out of his truck,
she had a self-created duty,
837
01:03:00,871 --> 01:03:03,249
knowing that he was getting
back into the car,
838
01:03:03,416 --> 01:03:06,002
to prevent it when she
wasn't physically present.
839
01:03:06,168 --> 01:03:09,755
Um, that's when it obviously
went downhill and that was, uh,
840
01:03:09,922 --> 01:03:13,301
was somewhat of a surprise
to hear him saying that.
841
01:03:20,808 --> 01:03:23,520
The huge questionat the heart of this case
842
01:03:23,686 --> 01:03:26,940
is whether Michelle told Conradto get back in the truck.
843
01:03:28,316 --> 01:03:29,984
It's a big question,
because there's...
844
01:03:30,151 --> 01:03:31,986
there's meta-data for the phone calls.
845
01:03:32,153 --> 01:03:34,072
But there's no recordings.
846
01:03:34,239 --> 01:03:37,200
So, there's absolutely no way
to know whether
847
01:03:37,367 --> 01:03:39,828
Michelle telling him
to get back in the truck
848
01:03:39,995 --> 01:03:42,914
was an event that took place,
whether it was something
849
01:03:43,081 --> 01:03:45,208
that she wanted people
to think had happened.
850
01:03:45,375 --> 01:03:47,878
Whether it was like
a manifestation of her guilt.
851
01:03:49,755 --> 01:03:53,675
Why did Michelle wait two monthsto tell Samantha Boardman,
852
01:03:53,842 --> 01:03:56,470
"I told him to get backin the truck"?
853
01:04:07,981 --> 01:04:11,485
I don't think we can know that
Michelle's story is at all true.
854
01:04:11,652 --> 01:04:15,030
It's not... I don't think
it's a true story.
855
01:04:15,197 --> 01:04:17,116
There's no text she said it.
856
01:04:17,283 --> 01:04:21,328
There's no recording of a phone
that she said it.
857
01:04:21,495 --> 01:04:26,459
Michelle frequently madecontradictory statements.
858
01:04:26,625 --> 01:04:30,546
One of the most striking was
that she told her friends
859
01:04:30,713 --> 01:04:33,049
that she had never had sex.
860
01:04:47,855 --> 01:04:51,943
Then she told a friend that
she had had sex with Conrad.
861
01:05:02,662 --> 01:05:06,291
Then she told her friend
that Conrad had raped her.
862
01:05:06,458 --> 01:05:08,793
That he had forced himself on her.
863
01:05:19,096 --> 01:05:22,849
What's scary about Michelle's
description of being assaulted
864
01:05:23,016 --> 01:05:25,477
is that her friends don't believe her.
865
01:05:25,644 --> 01:05:27,729
That there's a sense that, like,
866
01:05:27,896 --> 01:05:29,940
Michelle says some stuff that's true
867
01:05:30,107 --> 01:05:33,569
and some stuff that's not true
and everyone kind of knows it.
868
01:05:33,736 --> 01:05:38,032
I didn't see the DA
bringing that up and saying,
869
01:05:38,198 --> 01:05:41,285
"Well, Michelle was raped by Conrad.
870
01:05:41,452 --> 01:05:44,079
How do we know
she was raped by Conrad?
871
01:05:44,246 --> 01:05:46,790
She actually told somebody
in a text."
872
01:05:46,957 --> 01:05:50,878
The DA said again and again
873
01:05:51,045 --> 01:05:54,048
she was a liarwho couldn't be trusted,
874
01:05:54,215 --> 01:05:57,927
because the DA was obsessedwith not making her sympathetic
875
01:05:58,094 --> 01:06:01,639
without realizing she wasundermining her own case.
876
01:06:01,806 --> 01:06:06,519
But this is the constant twisting
by the DA of data
877
01:06:06,686 --> 01:06:09,731
so that it became impossible
to disentangle.
878
01:06:12,942 --> 01:06:19,199
Most of America believes that shetexted him this in writing.
879
01:06:19,365 --> 01:06:20,825
According to prosecutors,
880
01:06:20,992 --> 01:06:23,077
Carter even texting him to getback in the truck
881
01:06:23,244 --> 01:06:24,954
when he has second thoughts.
882
01:06:25,121 --> 01:06:28,958
And when I meet people in airports
and I'd say to them, uh,
883
01:06:29,125 --> 01:06:31,461
"Hey folks, do you know about this...
884
01:06:31,628 --> 01:06:33,672
this, uh, lady, uh, you know,
885
01:06:33,838 --> 01:06:35,715
who supposedly told
her boyfriend to kill himself?"
886
01:06:35,882 --> 01:06:38,385
"Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
She... She texted her to death."
887
01:06:38,552 --> 01:06:41,054
I said, "Would you believe that there
was never anything written down?
888
01:06:41,221 --> 01:06:42,722
We have no written record."
889
01:06:42,889 --> 01:06:44,349
"No, Doc."
890
01:06:44,516 --> 01:06:45,934
And people get mad.
891
01:06:46,101 --> 01:06:48,312
They say things like
fake news again.
892
01:06:48,478 --> 01:06:51,063
They we're just cherry picking
when to believe Michelle
893
01:06:51,230 --> 01:06:52,982
and when not to believe Michelle.
894
01:06:54,483 --> 01:06:56,194
We are appealing the verdict,
895
01:06:56,360 --> 01:06:58,946
and we'll appeal itfor as long as it takes.
896
01:07:00,073 --> 01:07:03,826
To now treat this juvenile
897
01:07:03,993 --> 01:07:07,789
as, uh, somebody who committed
a homicide,
898
01:07:07,956 --> 01:07:11,417
I think is unfair,
unjust and illegal,
899
01:07:11,584 --> 01:07:14,838
and I think eventually
the court system will see it.
900
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:33,106
Here's Michelle coming in right now.
901
01:07:35,650 --> 01:07:37,861
Keep your head up.
Love you, Michelle.
902
01:08:16,150 --> 01:08:17,860
Your Honor,
the Commonwealth is asking this court
903
01:08:18,027 --> 01:08:20,363
to impose a sentence
of not less than seven,
904
01:08:20,529 --> 01:08:23,407
no more than 12 years
in state prison.
905
01:08:23,574 --> 01:08:25,701
Your Honor, as the evidence proved,
906
01:08:25,868 --> 01:08:29,038
the facts in this case
are egregious.
907
01:08:29,205 --> 01:08:32,625
There is no earthly reason
why Conrad Henri Roy
908
01:08:32,792 --> 01:08:36,588
should not be here today
with his loving family,
909
01:08:36,754 --> 01:08:38,548
enjoying life,
910
01:08:38,715 --> 01:08:41,467
sharing his many gifts with the world.
911
01:08:41,634 --> 01:08:45,388
But he is not,
and the reason he is not here
912
01:08:45,555 --> 01:08:48,350
is the defendant, Michelle Carter.
913
01:08:48,516 --> 01:08:51,561
Her actions killed Conrad Roy.
914
01:08:51,728 --> 01:08:54,898
She ended his life
to better her own.
915
01:08:55,065 --> 01:08:56,816
For all of these reasons,
Your Honor,
916
01:08:56,983 --> 01:08:59,444
the Commonwealth respectfully
asks this court
917
01:08:59,611 --> 01:09:01,696
to impose our recommendation.
Thank you.
918
01:09:01,863 --> 01:09:03,782
Thank you, Miss Flynn.
919
01:09:03,949 --> 01:09:05,784
Who speaks for the defendant?
920
01:09:06,868 --> 01:09:09,746
Mr. Cataldo, do you have
any evidence to present?
921
01:09:11,164 --> 01:09:16,420
Your Honor, I will summarize by saying,
as this court is well aware,
922
01:09:16,587 --> 01:09:20,174
we're guided with the idea
in the juvenile justice system
923
01:09:20,340 --> 01:09:25,012
that the goal is not punitive,
but yet rehabilitative.
924
01:09:25,179 --> 01:09:28,307
Miss Carter was 17 years old
at the time.
925
01:09:28,474 --> 01:09:31,727
We have a body of law from both
the United States Supreme Court
926
01:09:31,894 --> 01:09:33,270
as well as the SJC
927
01:09:33,437 --> 01:09:35,815
about the adolescent
brain development,
928
01:09:35,981 --> 01:09:38,734
what a court can consider
on sentencing.
929
01:09:38,901 --> 01:09:41,278
And there is a clear body that says
930
01:09:41,445 --> 01:09:45,366
adolescents are not as culpable
as full-grown adults.
931
01:09:45,533 --> 01:09:48,870
Miss Carter will have to live
with the consequences of this
932
01:09:49,036 --> 01:09:50,454
for the rest of her life,
933
01:09:50,621 --> 01:09:52,748
with the publicity
that this case has gained.
934
01:09:52,915 --> 01:09:55,376
Um, that will be substantial.
935
01:09:55,543 --> 01:10:00,340
I think treatment is appropriate
in this particular case for Miss Carter.
936
01:10:00,506 --> 01:10:04,218
Miss Carter does regret
what happened.
937
01:10:04,385 --> 01:10:07,472
She also sent a letter
to the probation department
938
01:10:07,639 --> 01:10:12,852
where she accepts responsibility
for her actions, her words,
939
01:10:13,019 --> 01:10:15,271
her letter.
The court has reviewed all this.
940
01:10:15,438 --> 01:10:19,693
Your Honor, I suggest that she
is not a danger to the public
941
01:10:19,859 --> 01:10:24,322
and in the remedial system,
the juvenile system, uh,
942
01:10:24,489 --> 01:10:27,701
probation is appropriate.
Thank you very much, Your Honor.
943
01:10:27,868 --> 01:10:29,369
Thank you very much.
944
01:10:29,536 --> 01:10:31,037
All rise.
945
01:10:56,647 --> 01:10:58,732
This court is now in session.
Be seated, please.
946
01:10:58,899 --> 01:11:01,318
No talking while court's in session.
947
01:11:01,485 --> 01:11:03,736
You need to understand, all of you,
948
01:11:05,321 --> 01:11:07,782
that this court has not nor should it
949
01:11:07,949 --> 01:11:10,994
allow any emotional response
to this case to enter
950
01:11:11,161 --> 01:11:14,247
into its determinations in any way.
951
01:11:14,414 --> 01:11:20,128
Everyone is entitled
to a decision devoid of any emotion
952
01:11:20,295 --> 01:11:22,339
with respect to this case.
953
01:11:24,383 --> 01:11:28,887
Now I know that there has beensignificant media coverage of this case.
954
01:11:29,054 --> 01:11:32,683
I assure youthat I have steadfastly avoided
955
01:11:32,849 --> 01:11:35,185
any of that.
956
01:11:35,352 --> 01:11:37,479
But by the end of todaypeople will wonder why
957
01:11:37,646 --> 01:11:39,273
what has happened has happened.
958
01:11:39,440 --> 01:11:42,234
People may wonderwhy all of this has happened.
959
01:11:42,401 --> 01:11:45,154
I have not found
960
01:11:45,321 --> 01:11:49,199
that Miss Carter's age
or level of maturity
961
01:11:50,826 --> 01:11:52,953
or even her mental illness
962
01:11:55,164 --> 01:11:58,334
have any significant impact
on her actions.
963
01:12:00,461 --> 01:12:03,255
She was a bright young lady,
did well in school,
964
01:12:03,422 --> 01:12:08,511
and I am satisfied that she
was mindful of the actions
965
01:12:08,678 --> 01:12:11,138
for which she now stands convicted.
966
01:12:12,723 --> 01:12:16,602
On the other hand, even if the age
and the maturity level
967
01:12:16,769 --> 01:12:21,399
of the person at the time that
they have committed the crime
968
01:12:23,985 --> 01:12:27,280
doesn't gre... doesn't garner
a great deal of significance,
969
01:12:27,447 --> 01:12:31,367
the fact that they are still
of that young age
970
01:12:31,534 --> 01:12:34,788
offers a greater promise
of rehabilitation.
971
01:12:36,081 --> 01:12:37,791
Miss Carter, please stand.
972
01:12:44,005 --> 01:12:47,467
Miss Carter, a guilty finding
having entered on the indictment
973
01:12:47,634 --> 01:12:51,513
charging you with
the involuntary manslaughter
974
01:12:51,680 --> 01:12:53,932
of Conrad Roy III
975
01:12:54,099 --> 01:12:56,727
now sentences you to
two and a half years
976
01:12:56,893 --> 01:12:59,354
in the Bristol County
House of Correction.
977
01:13:00,731 --> 01:13:05,319
Fifteen months of said sentence
shall be deemed a committed sentence
978
01:13:05,486 --> 01:13:08,155
and the balance thereof
shall be suspended
979
01:13:08,322 --> 01:13:11,825
until August 1st of 2022.
980
01:13:13,410 --> 01:13:16,622
That is the sentence of the court.
You may be seated.
981
01:13:17,831 --> 01:13:19,500
Mr. Cataldo,
do you wish to be heard?
982
01:13:19,667 --> 01:13:21,335
I do, Your Honor.
983
01:13:21,502 --> 01:13:23,754
- May I approach?
- You may.
984
01:13:33,180 --> 01:13:35,308
Your Honor, what I have just filed
985
01:13:35,474 --> 01:13:37,518
is a motion to stay
the execution of the sentence.
986
01:13:37,685 --> 01:13:40,771
- Let me take a look at it, please.
- Okay, thank you.
987
01:13:51,991 --> 01:13:54,702
I guess we have all come
to know each other a little bit.
988
01:13:54,869 --> 01:13:57,539
I anticipated this motion,
Mr. Cataldo,
989
01:13:57,705 --> 01:13:59,624
and I took some significant time
990
01:13:59,791 --> 01:14:02,127
to review the case
of Commonwealth versus Hodge.
991
01:14:02,293 --> 01:14:05,088
which is found at 380 Mass 851.
992
01:14:05,255 --> 01:14:10,427
The conviction may be reversible,
but the time spent in prison is not.
993
01:14:12,470 --> 01:14:17,642
I am satisfied that there is
an issue worthy of presentation
994
01:14:17,809 --> 01:14:19,603
to the appellate court.
995
01:14:19,770 --> 01:14:21,188
In fact, this court
996
01:14:21,355 --> 01:14:24,358
believes that the wisdom
of the appellate court
997
01:14:24,524 --> 01:14:28,445
will be of instruction now
and going forward.
998
01:14:28,612 --> 01:14:31,323
I don't know what
the appeals court will do.
999
01:14:31,490 --> 01:14:35,494
I don't know if it goes to the SJC,
what the SJC will do.
1000
01:14:35,661 --> 01:14:38,831
But I am satisfied
that a grant of a stay
1001
01:14:38,997 --> 01:14:42,501
through the Massachusetts
court system only
1002
01:14:43,836 --> 01:14:45,212
is warranted.
1003
01:14:45,379 --> 01:14:49,216
This order will not encompass
anything with respect
1004
01:14:49,383 --> 01:14:52,094
to the federal system.
1005
01:14:52,261 --> 01:14:54,847
Is there anything further,
Mr. Cataldo or Mr. Madeira?
1006
01:14:55,014 --> 01:14:56,724
One minute please.
1007
01:15:04,232 --> 01:15:05,691
We're all set. Thank you.
1008
01:15:05,858 --> 01:15:08,945
And we are adjourned.
Thank you very much.
1009
01:15:09,112 --> 01:15:10,738
All rise.
1010
01:15:27,629 --> 01:15:29,256
I don't understand how a month ago
1011
01:15:29,423 --> 01:15:31,216
it's a guilty verdict
giving the family hope
1012
01:15:31,383 --> 01:15:32,968
that there might be some type
of justice,
1013
01:15:33,135 --> 01:15:36,096
to just have her go home tonight
and have a nice meal.
1014
01:15:36,263 --> 01:15:38,515
I just don't get it. Like I said,
it's saying to me...
1015
01:15:38,682 --> 01:15:40,684
I don't have a law degree,
I don't have...
1016
01:15:40,851 --> 01:15:42,353
But it saying
as long I'm under 18,
1017
01:15:42,520 --> 01:15:44,230
I can bully anyone.
1018
01:15:45,356 --> 01:15:46,941
Are you pleased with the stay?
1019
01:15:47,108 --> 01:15:49,860
Very much so, yes. Yes.
1020
01:15:50,027 --> 01:15:53,197
You have to remember, people weretotally split about this case.
1021
01:15:53,364 --> 01:15:56,075
So, the reason that it's
so interesting to me,
1022
01:15:56,242 --> 01:15:58,911
like, the difference between
the conviction and the sentencing,
1023
01:15:59,078 --> 01:16:02,457
is that it expresses
the complete kind of craziness
1024
01:16:02,623 --> 01:16:05,209
that this case drives people to
in terms of trying to come up
1025
01:16:05,376 --> 01:16:08,671
with one objective conclusion of
what should happen to Michelle Carter.
1026
01:16:08,838 --> 01:16:10,923
If this appeal lingers to 2022,
1027
01:16:11,090 --> 01:16:12,759
conceivably she will never
serve time in jail?
1028
01:16:12,926 --> 01:16:14,802
Conceivably, yes.
1029
01:16:16,095 --> 01:16:19,307
It's like you were responsible,it was involuntary manslaughter.
1030
01:16:19,474 --> 01:16:21,893
But you can basically never go to jail?
1031
01:16:37,742 --> 01:16:40,203
I would be surprised
if she serves time.
1032
01:17:10,276 --> 01:17:14,029
I have reviewed
the Commonwealth's motion
1033
01:17:14,196 --> 01:17:17,074
and have considered the arguments
just presented to the court.
1034
01:17:17,241 --> 01:17:20,119
The court now allows
the Commonwealth's motion
1035
01:17:20,286 --> 01:17:22,580
to revoke the stay of sentence.
1036
01:17:22,747 --> 01:17:25,875
Miss Carter will now be taken
into custody.
1037
01:17:32,381 --> 01:17:34,926
This matter is adjourned.
Thank you very much.
1038
01:17:35,093 --> 01:17:36,469
All rise.
87857
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