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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:08,563 --> 00:00:10,643 When I was six years old we moved to Chicago, 2 00:00:11,434 --> 00:00:13,193 a little country boy in the big city. 3 00:00:14,293 --> 00:00:15,205 While I was there, 4 00:00:15,266 --> 00:00:17,094 you won't believe the things I saw people do: 5 00:00:17,716 --> 00:00:20,462 theft, vandalism, sometimes worse. 6 00:00:21,468 --> 00:00:23,819 Things were different in small town Mississippi, 7 00:00:24,433 --> 00:00:25,721 where everyone knows everyone. 8 00:00:26,251 --> 00:00:28,260 If you were up to no good, you'd never get away with it. 9 00:00:29,343 --> 00:00:33,354 But the anonymity of a densely populated city, like Chicago, 10 00:00:33,654 --> 00:00:36,968 seemed to expose a more primal aspect of human nature. 11 00:00:38,500 --> 00:00:40,096 Religions call it sin. 12 00:00:41,529 --> 00:00:43,090 And faiths around the globe 13 00:00:43,540 --> 00:00:44,643 have their own prescriptions 14 00:00:45,016 --> 00:00:47,874 for preventing, and punishing, sin. 15 00:00:49,018 --> 00:00:51,581 I wonder, if we put all those ideas together, 16 00:00:52,448 --> 00:00:54,364 could we actually conquer sin? 17 00:00:57,474 --> 00:01:00,240 I'm travelling to the front lines of our battle with sin. 18 00:01:02,138 --> 00:01:04,660 From blood-soaked mass rituals... 19 00:01:04,952 --> 00:01:07,676 So this is where sin went viral? 20 00:01:11,041 --> 00:01:12,930 To a festival that conquers evil. 21 00:01:13,311 --> 00:01:17,813 We light candles everywhere and remove the evil from us. 22 00:01:18,343 --> 00:01:19,747 I'll meet an executioner, 23 00:01:20,510 --> 00:01:21,638 tortured by guilt... 24 00:01:22,142 --> 00:01:24,996 Why do I have to continue to sin over and over and over, 25 00:01:25,057 --> 00:01:26,481 when I know it's wrong? 26 00:01:28,678 --> 00:01:30,010 And the Hanoi jailer 27 00:01:30,164 --> 00:01:31,724 who seems blind to it. 28 00:01:32,406 --> 00:01:33,869 John McCain was my friend. 29 00:01:34,639 --> 00:01:37,012 I'll learn about purging sin from a corpse... 30 00:01:37,385 --> 00:01:39,807 They would lay this directly on the dead body and then eat it. 31 00:01:41,553 --> 00:01:43,469 And ask if the biggest sins... 32 00:01:43,530 --> 00:01:45,993 So your grandfather was the one in Auschwitz? 33 00:01:46,054 --> 00:01:47,395 The Master of Hell. 34 00:01:47,493 --> 00:01:48,973 can ever be forgiven. 35 00:02:01,987 --> 00:02:05,035 Every year, on Good Friday in the Philippines, 36 00:02:05,641 --> 00:02:07,449 the people of the town of San Pedro 37 00:02:07,510 --> 00:02:10,016 re-enact the Passion of Christ. 38 00:02:16,873 --> 00:02:20,355 They parade a man, portraying Jesus, to a small hill, 39 00:02:21,139 --> 00:02:22,627 where they nail him to a cross, 40 00:02:23,031 --> 00:02:24,542 using real nails, 41 00:02:26,793 --> 00:02:27,959 and crucify him. 42 00:02:38,230 --> 00:02:39,909 But that's not the only aspect 43 00:02:39,970 --> 00:02:42,198 of Christ's agony they recreate. 44 00:02:46,618 --> 00:02:48,674 Many villagers whip themselves, 45 00:02:49,116 --> 00:02:52,299 just as the Bible says Roman soldiers whipped Jesus. 46 00:02:54,281 --> 00:02:56,307 Sharp pieces of bamboo make sure 47 00:02:56,368 --> 00:02:58,207 the whips draw plenty of blood. 48 00:03:04,485 --> 00:03:07,065 What could drive shopkeepers and taxi drivers 49 00:03:07,755 --> 00:03:09,867 to take up such a bloody ritual? 50 00:03:13,887 --> 00:03:15,858 The answer lies across the globe 51 00:03:16,263 --> 00:03:17,723 in Perugia, Italy. 52 00:03:21,628 --> 00:03:24,411 I'm meeting historian, Roberto Rusconi, 53 00:03:24,472 --> 00:03:25,835 at the Church of San Bevignate. 54 00:03:32,987 --> 00:03:36,447 Inside frescoes from nearly 800 years ago, 55 00:03:36,930 --> 00:03:40,468 tell the strange story of how self-flagellation, 56 00:03:40,679 --> 00:03:41,707 went viral. 57 00:03:43,017 --> 00:03:44,503 You see here, they... 58 00:03:44,871 --> 00:03:47,357 made a representation of the Flagellants. 59 00:03:48,634 --> 00:03:52,224 They are scourging themselves naked to the waist. 60 00:03:53,154 --> 00:03:54,861 The monks in the monasteries, 61 00:03:54,921 --> 00:03:57,392 they used to make this kind of penance, 62 00:03:57,725 --> 00:04:01,071 to wash away every sin in your soul. 63 00:04:01,676 --> 00:04:04,436 But what made them think that flagellation 64 00:04:04,497 --> 00:04:06,095 would make them right with God? 65 00:04:06,937 --> 00:04:09,606 We have to make expiation for our sins, 66 00:04:09,955 --> 00:04:12,582 and the only way is scourge ourselves, 67 00:04:12,926 --> 00:04:16,585 and be beaten as Jesus Christ was beaten. 68 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,477 Our souls, as you know, have the original sin 69 00:04:19,538 --> 00:04:23,411 and you have to wash away every part of it in your soul. 70 00:04:23,898 --> 00:04:25,863 And you have to wash it with your own blood? 71 00:04:25,924 --> 00:04:29,341 Yes. It was more effective than soap. 72 00:04:35,382 --> 00:04:37,728 The Christian concept of original sin, 73 00:04:38,038 --> 00:04:41,354 began when Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree. 74 00:04:44,736 --> 00:04:48,160 Their defiance of God corrupted the entire human race, 75 00:04:48,768 --> 00:04:51,230 making sin something even devout monks 76 00:04:51,291 --> 00:04:53,004 must purge through penance. 77 00:05:00,688 --> 00:05:04,021 But the walls of San Bevignate reveal something more, 78 00:05:04,790 --> 00:05:07,733 how flagellation spread from the monastery 79 00:05:08,046 --> 00:05:09,769 to the everyday believer. 80 00:05:11,245 --> 00:05:14,165 So, in the corner, you see their representation 81 00:05:14,226 --> 00:05:16,673 to be the image of Raniero Fasani. 82 00:05:16,733 --> 00:05:18,547 Raniero Fasani. 83 00:05:18,608 --> 00:05:21,551 Raniero Fasani's a normal person, a lay person. 84 00:05:21,704 --> 00:05:25,195 He had visions when Our Lady appeared to him. 85 00:05:29,082 --> 00:05:32,867 Fasani had taken up the practice of self-flagellation. 86 00:05:39,589 --> 00:05:41,710 Then, in 1260, 87 00:05:42,071 --> 00:05:44,362 he had a vision of the Virgin Mary. 88 00:05:47,557 --> 00:05:50,467 She told him that the common people, like him, 89 00:05:50,843 --> 00:05:55,020 needed to purge their sins through a great public flagellation. 90 00:05:56,438 --> 00:05:59,905 Fasani began urging the Perugians to whip themselves. 91 00:06:05,059 --> 00:06:07,483 The Holy Mother came to him and said, 92 00:06:07,577 --> 00:06:11,480 'Listen, this is not just for monks, this is for everybody.' 93 00:06:11,541 --> 00:06:13,339 You gotta go back and tell them, 94 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:15,035 'Get out there and start whipping.' 95 00:06:15,096 --> 00:06:18,605 Yes. Don't rely on monks, do it yourself. 96 00:06:19,448 --> 00:06:20,982 So Fasani has his vision. 97 00:06:21,043 --> 00:06:23,306 He comes in and he explains it, 98 00:06:23,803 --> 00:06:24,283 and... 99 00:06:25,943 --> 00:06:26,880 people followed him? 100 00:06:26,941 --> 00:06:29,028 So, he was followed by a lot of people 101 00:06:29,089 --> 00:06:32,391 in town and countryside, and they started scourging, 102 00:06:32,601 --> 00:06:35,981 as he suggested, and it became a practice for lay people. 103 00:06:36,444 --> 00:06:38,180 It went out from the walls 104 00:06:38,771 --> 00:06:41,118 of the churches and it entered the square. 105 00:06:46,202 --> 00:06:49,611 And it happened here in Perugia, in the year 1260. 106 00:06:52,449 --> 00:06:55,770 This place was crowded with thousands of people. 107 00:06:55,831 --> 00:06:56,766 All flagellating? 108 00:06:56,827 --> 00:06:57,861 All flagellating. 109 00:06:58,835 --> 00:07:00,064 They're drawing blood? 110 00:07:00,314 --> 00:07:03,772 So, the square would have been covered with blood, right? 111 00:07:03,965 --> 00:07:04,629 Yes. 112 00:07:05,685 --> 00:07:09,135 As catastrophes like the Black Death swept across Europe, 113 00:07:09,508 --> 00:07:11,824 so did mass flagellations. 114 00:07:12,788 --> 00:07:14,927 Believers thought that bloody penance 115 00:07:14,988 --> 00:07:18,316 would bring salvation in this life and the next. 116 00:07:19,477 --> 00:07:21,824 So, we're literally... 117 00:07:22,534 --> 00:07:24,179 standing in the square 118 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:24,639 Yeah. 119 00:07:24,719 --> 00:07:26,593 where sin went viral? 120 00:07:26,970 --> 00:07:27,494 Yes. 121 00:07:27,555 --> 00:07:28,980 It just spread out. 122 00:07:43,503 --> 00:07:44,396 It seems to me, 123 00:07:45,552 --> 00:07:49,382 there was a deep human desire to take action against sin, 124 00:07:50,128 --> 00:07:52,553 sometimes by beating ourselves up. 125 00:07:53,416 --> 00:07:55,074 But to the Catholic faithful, 126 00:07:55,435 --> 00:07:57,900 flagellation was something more than that. 127 00:07:58,562 --> 00:08:00,929 It was a way to share the burdens of Jesus, 128 00:08:01,208 --> 00:08:02,877 whom they believed died 129 00:08:03,151 --> 00:08:05,341 to wipe away the sins of humanity. 130 00:08:06,395 --> 00:08:07,655 It does what... 131 00:08:08,369 --> 00:08:10,261 penance is supposed to do, 132 00:08:11,042 --> 00:08:12,527 bring us closer to God. 133 00:08:21,126 --> 00:08:23,314 But what if a sinner doesn't do penance? 134 00:08:26,167 --> 00:08:28,118 Is there another way back to God? 135 00:08:39,522 --> 00:08:42,277 In the misty borderlands of England and Wales, 136 00:08:43,131 --> 00:08:45,096 there once was a way. 137 00:08:50,847 --> 00:08:52,393 Journalist, Sal Masekela, 138 00:08:52,462 --> 00:08:54,667 has come to the village of Ratlinghope, 139 00:08:55,089 --> 00:08:58,791 to learn about the lost tradition of sin-eating. 140 00:09:09,976 --> 00:09:14,230 Dafydd Mills Daniels is a religious scholar and theologian. 141 00:09:14,291 --> 00:09:15,257 -Hey. -Hello. 142 00:09:15,318 --> 00:09:16,178 -How are you? -I'm Sal. 143 00:09:16,239 --> 00:09:17,058 How are you? Nice to meet you. 144 00:09:17,242 --> 00:09:18,735 -Dafydd? -Yes, Dafydd. Yeah. 145 00:09:18,934 --> 00:09:21,065 This is a beautiful country. 146 00:09:21,162 --> 00:09:21,698 Yeah. 147 00:09:21,759 --> 00:09:24,300 And we brought you here because this is the home, 148 00:09:24,361 --> 00:09:26,751 or would have been the home, of the very last sin-eater 149 00:09:27,107 --> 00:09:29,579 in England, a man called Richard Munslow, who died in 1906. 150 00:09:30,550 --> 00:09:33,631 Munslow was a prosperous farmer for much of his life, 151 00:09:34,384 --> 00:09:37,618 but he died performing bizarre rituals... 152 00:09:37,919 --> 00:09:38,985 with the dead. 153 00:09:42,622 --> 00:09:43,379 Sin-eating. 154 00:09:44,055 --> 00:09:45,625 What exactly does that mean? 155 00:09:45,873 --> 00:09:48,806 Well, sin-eating was a practice prevalent in this area, 156 00:09:48,867 --> 00:09:50,942 England-Wales border, about 500 years ago. 157 00:09:51,003 --> 00:09:52,873 It started to die out in the 19th Century. 158 00:09:53,097 --> 00:09:55,009 And it was a practice that involved 159 00:09:55,565 --> 00:09:57,300 people taking on other people's sins. 160 00:09:57,855 --> 00:09:59,496 And where does the eating part come in? 161 00:09:59,557 --> 00:10:00,808 Ah, right, it's a good question. 162 00:10:00,869 --> 00:10:02,393 Why don't we go into the barn and get some things, 163 00:10:02,454 --> 00:10:03,417 and I'll show you how that worked? 164 00:10:03,478 --> 00:10:04,315 Alright, cool. 165 00:10:07,785 --> 00:10:09,199 Okay, let's see if this is open. 166 00:10:14,073 --> 00:10:15,725 Yeah, so here we are in Munslow's barn. 167 00:10:15,786 --> 00:10:17,047 Wow! 168 00:10:20,278 --> 00:10:21,605 Why don't you grab hold of... 169 00:10:21,666 --> 00:10:22,747 -These chairs? -Yeah. 170 00:10:23,591 --> 00:10:24,664 And I'll take this board. 171 00:10:26,560 --> 00:10:28,401 So why don't you put those chairs out there. 172 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:29,629 Okay. 173 00:10:30,151 --> 00:10:32,128 So when you had a sudden death, 174 00:10:32,555 --> 00:10:35,463 and so it hadn't been possible for a priest to come to the house 175 00:10:35,575 --> 00:10:36,917 for the person who died, 176 00:10:37,467 --> 00:10:39,429 and they'd sort of be considered to die in a state of sin, 177 00:10:40,073 --> 00:10:43,498 then the family may well have called a sin-eater. 178 00:10:44,331 --> 00:10:45,219 What have you got there? 179 00:10:45,817 --> 00:10:47,786 Well this is some of the paraphernalia 180 00:10:48,284 --> 00:10:49,313 of a sin-eater. 181 00:10:50,310 --> 00:10:51,139 And what they used... 182 00:10:51,422 --> 00:10:52,250 were things like this. 183 00:10:52,310 --> 00:10:54,294 So they would have a wooden plate, 184 00:10:55,121 --> 00:10:56,023 a wooden bowl, 185 00:10:57,387 --> 00:10:58,075 some bread, 186 00:11:00,428 --> 00:11:01,555 and some salt. 187 00:11:06,430 --> 00:11:08,266 So, you'd have this process, 188 00:11:09,386 --> 00:11:10,660 usually outside the house. 189 00:11:12,091 --> 00:11:13,281 The body would be laid out. 190 00:11:16,673 --> 00:11:17,787 They would take out the salt, 191 00:11:18,599 --> 00:11:20,532 put it in the plate, 192 00:11:21,595 --> 00:11:22,879 put the bread on top of it 193 00:11:23,099 --> 00:11:25,128 and then actually lay this directly on the dead body. 194 00:11:30,141 --> 00:11:31,018 Where a sin-eater 195 00:11:31,315 --> 00:11:33,523 would lift it up and eat it. 196 00:11:48,306 --> 00:11:50,555 They also consumed liquid, as well as bread. 197 00:11:51,334 --> 00:11:52,493 So in some places milk, 198 00:11:52,996 --> 00:11:54,001 but also beer. 199 00:11:54,312 --> 00:11:56,677 And we'd pour it into the bowl. 200 00:11:56,815 --> 00:11:59,533 And again, the sin-eater would lift it directly from the body. 201 00:12:03,070 --> 00:12:04,817 At the end of the ceremony of sin-eating, 202 00:12:04,935 --> 00:12:05,979 the sin-eater would have said, 203 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:07,925 'I give easement and rest now to thee, 204 00:12:07,998 --> 00:12:09,757 come not down the lanes or in our meadows, 205 00:12:09,818 --> 00:12:11,812 and for thy peace I pawn mine own soul.' 206 00:12:11,905 --> 00:12:13,155 Mmmmm. 207 00:12:13,563 --> 00:12:16,955 Translation: Ghosts, please don't hang out here. 208 00:12:17,015 --> 00:12:18,639 Exactly, yeah. 209 00:12:19,190 --> 00:12:24,713 Why would they think then that food, milk, beer 210 00:12:25,046 --> 00:12:28,585 would be a process to absolve someone of their sins? 211 00:12:28,646 --> 00:12:30,612 Yeah. Here we had this idea of sin 212 00:12:30,673 --> 00:12:32,366 being its own entity or substance. 213 00:12:32,893 --> 00:12:36,073 The sin of this other person has been transferred into the food 214 00:12:36,134 --> 00:12:37,611 and then into the sin-eater themselves. 215 00:12:37,672 --> 00:12:40,106 When a soul is weighed down by sin, it's burdened. 216 00:12:40,167 --> 00:12:42,027 It has difficulty in the afterlife, 217 00:12:42,088 --> 00:12:44,105 gets caught between heaven and earth, 218 00:12:44,272 --> 00:12:45,363 and can come back as a ghost. 219 00:12:45,523 --> 00:12:46,607 Mmmm. 220 00:12:48,208 --> 00:12:52,006 What type of person would become a sin-eater? 221 00:12:52,425 --> 00:12:53,889 Well, usually desperately poor. 222 00:12:53,949 --> 00:12:56,064 So, essentially what you have here is people 223 00:12:56,268 --> 00:12:58,087 selling the only thing they have of value, 224 00:12:58,148 --> 00:12:59,744 which is their own soul. 225 00:13:00,566 --> 00:13:01,898 This person sells his own soul, 226 00:13:01,959 --> 00:13:03,669 but then he stops the community being affected 227 00:13:03,730 --> 00:13:06,175 and disturbed by this dead person's soul coming back. 228 00:13:08,746 --> 00:13:12,474 But if sin-eating was an act of desperation for the destitute, 229 00:13:15,028 --> 00:13:18,211 why did a successful farmer like Richard Munslow 230 00:13:18,373 --> 00:13:20,824 choose to dine over the dead? 231 00:13:33,574 --> 00:13:37,208 This rugged borderland between England and Wales 232 00:13:37,268 --> 00:13:39,531 was the scene of many battles over the centuries, 233 00:13:40,754 --> 00:13:44,467 and it's a place with a rich tradition of ghost stories. 234 00:13:47,966 --> 00:13:51,255 Sal Masekela and historian, Dafydd Mills Daniels, 235 00:13:51,809 --> 00:13:55,032 are on the trail of England's last known sin-eater, 236 00:13:55,872 --> 00:13:57,371 a man whose job 237 00:13:57,749 --> 00:14:03,120 was to rid the dead of sin and purge the land of ghosts. 238 00:14:05,192 --> 00:14:07,548 Here we are at Richard Munslow's tombstone. 239 00:14:08,098 --> 00:14:09,144 This is his actual grave site? 240 00:14:09,205 --> 00:14:09,861 Yeah. This is it. 241 00:14:09,922 --> 00:14:10,977 Wow! 242 00:14:11,612 --> 00:14:13,180 So this is the final sin-eater. 243 00:14:14,512 --> 00:14:15,735 And there you see... 244 00:14:16,671 --> 00:14:17,856 his family, his children. 245 00:14:17,917 --> 00:14:18,732 Yeah. 246 00:14:18,891 --> 00:14:20,023 Four children. 247 00:14:20,621 --> 00:14:24,766 Wow, this gives more of a sense of him as a person. 248 00:14:24,827 --> 00:14:25,753 Yeah, it does. 249 00:14:26,079 --> 00:14:27,552 And you mentioned earlier that 250 00:14:28,015 --> 00:14:29,617 usually it was poor people 251 00:14:29,973 --> 00:14:33,637 that chose to practice this, almost out of necessity, 252 00:14:34,168 --> 00:14:35,472 not necessarily choice. 253 00:14:35,988 --> 00:14:38,018 Munslow was a farmer, 254 00:14:38,561 --> 00:14:39,862 a family man, 255 00:14:39,923 --> 00:14:41,904 it seemed like he was fairly successful. 256 00:14:42,304 --> 00:14:44,418 Why would he choose this? 257 00:14:44,818 --> 00:14:46,661 Yeah, it is a curious choice, isn't it, 258 00:14:46,722 --> 00:14:47,719 particularly for someone like Munslow. 259 00:14:47,975 --> 00:14:49,622 The basic motivation he seems to have had 260 00:14:49,683 --> 00:14:51,859 is that his children died quite suddenly. 261 00:14:54,843 --> 00:14:57,342 Three of Munslow's young children, 262 00:14:57,430 --> 00:15:00,731 took sick and died in a single week in 1870. 263 00:15:03,491 --> 00:15:07,273 Dafydd believes Munslow may have linked his personal tragedy 264 00:15:07,708 --> 00:15:11,949 to the notion that unforgiven sins were haunting the village. 265 00:15:12,514 --> 00:15:14,783 This fear about the souls from the dead 266 00:15:14,844 --> 00:15:16,629 coming back to haunt their own society. 267 00:15:16,739 --> 00:15:18,911 What the sin-eater was doing was saving society 268 00:15:18,979 --> 00:15:20,794 from negative consequences of sin. 269 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,251 So while they were viewed somewhat as a pariah, 270 00:15:24,731 --> 00:15:26,214 within the community, 271 00:15:26,581 --> 00:15:28,772 there's also the sense of this is a value. 272 00:15:29,059 --> 00:15:30,053 Right. Yes. 273 00:15:30,158 --> 00:15:31,949 Christ, taking on the sins of the world, 274 00:15:32,010 --> 00:15:33,305 but he has to die for that atonement to happen. 275 00:15:33,366 --> 00:15:35,360 And so Munslow, he's agreed to be damned. 276 00:15:35,420 --> 00:15:39,217 Munslow seemed to have viewed it as this act of self-sacrificial love. 277 00:15:45,154 --> 00:15:46,589 Personal tragedy 278 00:15:47,186 --> 00:15:50,619 led Richard Munslow to become the last sin-eater. 279 00:15:51,574 --> 00:15:53,612 Bereft by the loss of his children, 280 00:15:54,432 --> 00:15:56,228 he sacrificed his soul 281 00:15:56,715 --> 00:15:58,674 to save the soul of his community. 282 00:15:59,453 --> 00:16:02,085 He provided grieving families with a sense of peace 283 00:16:02,146 --> 00:16:03,957 that he himself would never know. 284 00:16:05,318 --> 00:16:07,891 For someone already so heavily burdened, 285 00:16:09,036 --> 00:16:10,975 it was an incredibly noble act. 286 00:16:20,638 --> 00:16:22,250 Christians believe that we must 287 00:16:22,311 --> 00:16:24,391 reckon with our sins on Judgement Day. 288 00:16:25,735 --> 00:16:28,132 But does that day come in Heaven, 289 00:16:28,816 --> 00:16:30,614 or down here on Earth? 290 00:16:35,799 --> 00:16:37,664 I'm meeting Jerry Givens... 291 00:16:38,670 --> 00:16:40,414 Man, this is a lovely place. 292 00:16:40,514 --> 00:16:42,060 It is. Beautiful. 293 00:16:45,436 --> 00:16:49,051 A man who has always been a firm believer in God... 294 00:16:49,494 --> 00:16:51,517 This is God's creation, these trees, 295 00:16:51,814 --> 00:16:53,231 aw, look at the beauty. 296 00:16:55,915 --> 00:17:00,787 And who spent 17 years as executioner for the state of Virginia. 297 00:17:05,165 --> 00:17:06,648 I want to understand 298 00:17:07,164 --> 00:17:09,643 how a man can take another man's life 299 00:17:09,788 --> 00:17:12,109 and not believe he's committed a sin. 300 00:17:14,346 --> 00:17:17,439 How many different ways of execution did you take part in? 301 00:17:17,932 --> 00:17:21,550 It was 25 by electrocution, 302 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,400 and 37 by lethal injection. 303 00:17:25,532 --> 00:17:28,052 -You executed... -62 people. 304 00:17:28,113 --> 00:17:29,887 -Personally? -62 people. 305 00:17:31,623 --> 00:17:32,974 How did you feel? I mean, 306 00:17:33,759 --> 00:17:35,563 what kind of adjustments did you have to make, 307 00:17:36,049 --> 00:17:37,248 mentally or emotionally? 308 00:17:38,095 --> 00:17:38,858 Well, 309 00:17:39,321 --> 00:17:41,521 before each execution I would pray. 310 00:17:42,337 --> 00:17:43,868 -You would pray? -Mm-hm. 311 00:17:43,928 --> 00:17:46,147 I received the condemned 15 days... 312 00:17:47,328 --> 00:17:48,690 before I kill him. 313 00:17:51,617 --> 00:17:53,372 During that 15 day period, 314 00:17:53,696 --> 00:17:55,300 I'm trying to prepare him 315 00:17:55,919 --> 00:17:58,764 for his next destination. 316 00:17:59,238 --> 00:18:00,550 For electrocution, 317 00:18:00,761 --> 00:18:01,959 you had to shave the head. 318 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:03,938 So I would put my hand on his head 319 00:18:04,005 --> 00:18:05,724 and I would pray silently to him. 320 00:18:05,785 --> 00:18:07,236 And we used to get on our knees. 321 00:18:07,296 --> 00:18:08,800 'Now I lay me down to sleep, 322 00:18:08,974 --> 00:18:10,449 I pray the Lord my soul to keep. 323 00:18:10,697 --> 00:18:12,523 If I should die before I wake, 324 00:18:12,686 --> 00:18:14,650 I pray the Lord my soul to take.' 325 00:18:15,918 --> 00:18:17,227 Yeah. I know that. 326 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,031 So these guys are gonna die before they wake. 327 00:18:24,693 --> 00:18:26,762 Did you think what you were doing was a sin? 328 00:18:26,892 --> 00:18:28,682 That's when I first started, 329 00:18:29,621 --> 00:18:31,448 nah, not really, because... 330 00:18:32,019 --> 00:18:34,219 what I used to say, Morgan, I say, well, God, 331 00:18:34,892 --> 00:18:36,993 these people don't deserve to live 332 00:18:37,057 --> 00:18:38,514 for what they done to other people. 333 00:18:39,878 --> 00:18:41,171 They should have to suffer, 334 00:18:41,755 --> 00:18:42,790 for what they done. 335 00:18:45,093 --> 00:18:46,180 I'll give you an example 336 00:18:46,472 --> 00:18:49,002 of one of the crimes that this guy committed. 337 00:18:49,347 --> 00:18:50,854 There was an 86 year old woman. 338 00:18:51,785 --> 00:18:54,254 He nailed her feet to the wooden floor, 339 00:18:54,315 --> 00:18:56,000 and nailed her hands to the chair, 340 00:18:56,514 --> 00:18:59,469 and poured gasoline on her house and set it on fire. 341 00:19:01,482 --> 00:19:02,685 You know? And to me, 342 00:19:03,045 --> 00:19:04,837 does this guy deserve to live 343 00:19:04,898 --> 00:19:07,127 after doing this to another human being? 344 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:11,303 And it's in the Bible, 345 00:19:11,807 --> 00:19:12,687 'eye for an eye.' 346 00:19:13,108 --> 00:19:14,514 But it also says, 347 00:19:14,837 --> 00:19:15,813 'Thou shalt not...' 348 00:19:15,897 --> 00:19:16,540 Kill. 349 00:19:18,826 --> 00:19:19,807 How do we... 350 00:19:20,345 --> 00:19:22,753 come to terms with two opposites there? 351 00:19:22,992 --> 00:19:24,837 Because, Morgan, 352 00:19:25,217 --> 00:19:28,238 inside of each human being lives a thing called 'death'. 353 00:19:29,591 --> 00:19:30,473 You understand? 354 00:19:30,724 --> 00:19:32,274 It can't sentence you to death, 355 00:19:32,335 --> 00:19:33,858 you're already sentenced to death! 356 00:19:33,919 --> 00:19:35,162 God said you're gonna die. 357 00:19:36,903 --> 00:19:40,102 But Jerry's conviction that he was doing God's will 358 00:19:40,163 --> 00:19:41,733 was eventually shaken. 359 00:19:42,529 --> 00:19:44,437 God brought Earl Washington to me. 360 00:19:44,497 --> 00:19:45,639 Who is Earl Washington? 361 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,281 Earl Washington was a man on Death Row. 362 00:19:48,407 --> 00:19:50,421 He was innocent, but he was sentenced to death 363 00:19:50,482 --> 00:19:52,389 for a crime that he didn't commit. 364 00:19:52,700 --> 00:19:56,700 In 1993, Earl Washington became the first man ever 365 00:19:56,761 --> 00:20:00,677 exonerated from Virginia's Death Row, by DNA evidence. 366 00:20:01,755 --> 00:20:03,514 Back in 1985, 367 00:20:04,057 --> 00:20:07,924 Jerry had come within nine days of carrying out his execution. 368 00:20:09,038 --> 00:20:11,140 But when one man is found innocent... 369 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:13,891 It cast doubt on the whole system. 370 00:20:13,952 --> 00:20:15,117 That's right, on the whole system. 371 00:20:15,431 --> 00:20:17,599 In all of my prayers I will always ask God 372 00:20:17,660 --> 00:20:20,455 to never allow me to execute an innocent man, 373 00:20:20,516 --> 00:20:23,269 'cause I didn't want to be in the position to take an innocent life. 374 00:20:23,442 --> 00:20:26,821 So now you're in serious doubt about what you do. 375 00:20:26,882 --> 00:20:28,109 -Am I right about that? -Yeah. 376 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:29,995 It put doubt here. 377 00:20:31,312 --> 00:20:33,134 It put doubt in the executioner. 378 00:20:34,616 --> 00:20:36,367 Despite his growing doubt, 379 00:20:36,937 --> 00:20:40,554 Jerry continued his work as executioner for several years. 380 00:20:41,864 --> 00:20:43,776 Then, in 1999, 381 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:46,535 Jerry helped a friend buy a car 382 00:20:46,723 --> 00:20:49,065 with what proved to be drug money. 383 00:20:50,135 --> 00:20:52,137 He was convicted of money laundering 384 00:20:52,438 --> 00:20:54,266 and lying to a Grand Jury, 385 00:20:54,750 --> 00:20:55,923 and went to prison. 386 00:20:56,948 --> 00:20:59,046 Even though he still claims innocence, 387 00:21:00,536 --> 00:21:03,580 he sees this moment not as a fall from grace, 388 00:21:05,030 --> 00:21:07,032 but as his salvation... 389 00:21:07,855 --> 00:21:08,847 from sin. 390 00:21:09,375 --> 00:21:10,507 When this happened, 391 00:21:11,956 --> 00:21:13,825 God told me afterwards say, 392 00:21:13,886 --> 00:21:16,184 'Well, I brought Earl Washington to you, 393 00:21:16,404 --> 00:21:18,834 I answered your prayer, but you didn't leave.' 394 00:21:19,084 --> 00:21:21,464 So God said, 'Well, if you wanna do that, 395 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,508 I'll bring this here case against you.' 396 00:21:25,308 --> 00:21:27,186 I will make sure that you will leave.' 397 00:21:28,555 --> 00:21:29,339 I went to prison, 398 00:21:29,864 --> 00:21:31,008 for 57 month, 399 00:21:31,342 --> 00:21:33,721 and that's what helped me change my mind. 400 00:21:34,986 --> 00:21:36,963 If I offered you the job now? 401 00:21:37,348 --> 00:21:38,432 No, I wouldn't do it. 402 00:21:38,746 --> 00:21:39,425 Why not? 403 00:21:39,775 --> 00:21:43,271 Because I've learned that innocent people be executed. 404 00:21:44,602 --> 00:21:47,255 The court system is not great, right? It's not fair. 405 00:21:47,524 --> 00:21:49,059 You will not tell me that, 406 00:21:49,224 --> 00:21:50,423 because it's a sin? 407 00:21:50,830 --> 00:21:53,003 It is a sin. It is, it's a sin to kill. 408 00:21:54,248 --> 00:21:57,190 After Jerry was released in 2004, 409 00:21:57,513 --> 00:21:59,939 he became an anti-death penalty activist. 410 00:22:01,081 --> 00:22:02,784 He has travelled around the world, 411 00:22:02,974 --> 00:22:05,849 trying to educate people about alternatives, 412 00:22:06,149 --> 00:22:07,504 to capital punishment. 413 00:22:10,850 --> 00:22:13,514 Why do we have to kill a person 414 00:22:14,541 --> 00:22:16,072 to show that killing is wrong? 415 00:22:18,668 --> 00:22:19,950 If I cut this finger, 416 00:22:20,713 --> 00:22:22,711 do I have to cut this finger to stop the bleeding? 417 00:22:22,772 --> 00:22:23,567 No. 418 00:22:25,016 --> 00:22:26,771 That's just compounding the error. 419 00:22:27,784 --> 00:22:28,994 Yeah. You know, we all have sinned 420 00:22:29,055 --> 00:22:30,258 and come short of the glory of God, 421 00:22:30,318 --> 00:22:31,763 we all, as humans. 422 00:22:32,468 --> 00:22:34,116 We live in a simple world. 423 00:22:34,550 --> 00:22:37,407 Why do I continue to sin over and over and over, 424 00:22:37,561 --> 00:22:39,264 if I know it's wrong? 425 00:22:44,196 --> 00:22:45,915 How can we know what's right 426 00:22:46,469 --> 00:22:47,477 and what's wrong? 427 00:22:48,922 --> 00:22:51,313 You can avoid the seven deadly sins, 428 00:22:52,546 --> 00:22:54,255 you can follow the Ten Commandments, 429 00:22:54,795 --> 00:22:57,654 but the Bible rules aren't clear in every situation. 430 00:23:00,209 --> 00:23:02,591 Jerry found himself caught between, 431 00:23:04,369 --> 00:23:05,706 'an eye for an eye,' 432 00:23:06,696 --> 00:23:08,173 and 'thou shalt not kill', 433 00:23:10,104 --> 00:23:12,628 and stuck in a moral dilemma over life... 434 00:23:13,341 --> 00:23:14,242 and death. 435 00:23:16,863 --> 00:23:19,711 What he did, maybe that's what we all need to do, 436 00:23:21,098 --> 00:23:23,280 wrestle with ourselves and our faith, 437 00:23:24,814 --> 00:23:27,096 to do what we believe is right. 438 00:23:33,933 --> 00:23:37,313 But this struggle doesn't have to be morose or solitary. 439 00:23:40,284 --> 00:23:43,183 In fact, it can be a celebration. 440 00:23:53,586 --> 00:23:55,008 I'm in London, 441 00:23:55,412 --> 00:23:58,010 home to nearly half a million Hindus, 442 00:24:01,857 --> 00:24:03,610 to experience Diwali, 443 00:24:04,030 --> 00:24:05,363 the Hindu New Year. 444 00:24:06,862 --> 00:24:08,995 This five-day festival of light 445 00:24:09,255 --> 00:24:11,630 celebrates the triumph of good over evil, 446 00:24:12,496 --> 00:24:14,513 and the wiping away of bad deeds, 447 00:24:15,007 --> 00:24:16,362 from the previous year. 448 00:24:19,979 --> 00:24:23,440 I'm visiting Tarun and Jaymin Patel and their family... 449 00:24:23,793 --> 00:24:27,279 -Oh, welcome! Namaste. -Namaste. 450 00:24:27,465 --> 00:24:30,370 To learn more about this ancient tradition. 451 00:24:36,236 --> 00:24:39,957 Thank you so much for inviting us into your home. 452 00:24:40,335 --> 00:24:42,390 Tell me about your celebration. 453 00:24:42,450 --> 00:24:44,631 Diwali is an annual festival. 454 00:24:44,692 --> 00:24:47,729 It's the biggest festival of the year in Hindu calendar. 455 00:24:49,473 --> 00:24:52,400 We do a big family dinner. 456 00:24:52,753 --> 00:24:57,654 It means all our family get together and we all eat lots of food. 457 00:25:01,572 --> 00:25:04,150 But the greatest thing of all is that during Diwali, 458 00:25:04,211 --> 00:25:06,612 it's important that we also remember God, 459 00:25:06,673 --> 00:25:08,334 and we keep him central. 460 00:25:08,541 --> 00:25:10,392 Diwali centres around the story 461 00:25:10,453 --> 00:25:12,856 of a beautiful princess called Sita, 462 00:25:13,945 --> 00:25:16,456 an avatar of the Goddess Lakshmi. 463 00:25:17,899 --> 00:25:19,813 She was kidnapped and imprisoned, 464 00:25:21,555 --> 00:25:24,647 by a many-headed demon king called Ravana, 465 00:25:26,234 --> 00:25:28,503 backed by an army of demons. 466 00:25:30,221 --> 00:25:32,649 But Sita's husband, Lord Ram, 467 00:25:33,168 --> 00:25:34,890 an avatar of Vishnu, 468 00:25:35,803 --> 00:25:37,606 came to rescue his wife. 469 00:25:39,783 --> 00:25:41,324 Armed with his bow, 470 00:25:41,804 --> 00:25:44,266 he took on Ravana's demon army. 471 00:25:46,986 --> 00:25:49,082 With one final arrow... 472 00:25:54,224 --> 00:25:55,552 he slayed Ravana, 473 00:25:58,172 --> 00:26:00,742 and freed his beloved wife. 474 00:26:02,530 --> 00:26:05,887 Hindu tradition says that Ram and Sita's subjects 475 00:26:06,053 --> 00:26:09,575 lit oil lamps to guide the couple back to their kingdom, 476 00:26:12,740 --> 00:26:15,090 representing the triumph of good 477 00:26:15,378 --> 00:26:17,464 over the darkness of evil. 478 00:26:19,972 --> 00:26:21,782 It is festival of light, 479 00:26:21,843 --> 00:26:23,886 but we're welcoming you, God, come in. 480 00:26:23,947 --> 00:26:26,217 It's like Ram came that time. 481 00:26:26,277 --> 00:26:28,159 We light candles everywhere, 482 00:26:28,325 --> 00:26:31,412 and we believe that the evil from us, 483 00:26:31,473 --> 00:26:32,963 the darkness from us, 484 00:26:33,024 --> 00:26:35,364 we should remove and bring the light, 485 00:26:35,424 --> 00:26:37,677 the good things, from everybody. 486 00:26:37,737 --> 00:26:38,694 That's perfect. 487 00:26:38,755 --> 00:26:41,508 Ram was a symbol of righteousness. 488 00:26:41,569 --> 00:26:43,100 He was the ideal father, 489 00:26:43,284 --> 00:26:46,508 the ideal son, the ideal brother, the ideal husband. 490 00:26:46,971 --> 00:26:49,352 So those things over Diwali, 491 00:26:49,413 --> 00:26:52,533 as Hindus we will reflect on, and we will try and be that 492 00:26:52,693 --> 00:26:55,085 on a personal level, as much as we can, 493 00:26:55,146 --> 00:26:56,440 for as long as we can. 494 00:26:56,644 --> 00:27:00,292 If you reflect back, you will realize that you committed sin. 495 00:27:00,353 --> 00:27:02,012 That is what Diwali is about. 496 00:27:02,072 --> 00:27:03,021 Gotcha. 497 00:27:06,283 --> 00:27:08,950 It's the opportunity to forgive and forget. 498 00:27:09,116 --> 00:27:10,344 Do you manage that? 499 00:27:10,529 --> 00:27:11,234 We try. 500 00:27:13,368 --> 00:27:15,575 Forgive, yes; forget, perhaps not. 501 00:27:17,639 --> 00:27:19,443 Ah yes, I gotcha. 502 00:27:19,691 --> 00:27:22,395 Okay. There is sin and karma. 503 00:27:22,566 --> 00:27:23,617 Are they compatible? 504 00:27:23,678 --> 00:27:25,599 Do they sort of mean the same thing? 505 00:27:25,660 --> 00:27:27,126 Karma is the... 506 00:27:27,539 --> 00:27:28,831 good things that you do. 507 00:27:29,149 --> 00:27:31,098 You accumulate good karma. 508 00:27:31,239 --> 00:27:33,689 And bad things that you do in life, 509 00:27:33,750 --> 00:27:35,634 you accumulate bad karma. 510 00:27:35,795 --> 00:27:38,268 So the idea is to make the good karma 511 00:27:38,537 --> 00:27:39,600 bigger than the bad karma. 512 00:27:39,997 --> 00:27:43,120 You really want to weigh heavily on the good 513 00:27:43,181 --> 00:27:43,561 Yes. 514 00:27:43,755 --> 00:27:45,105 and try your best to... 515 00:27:45,339 --> 00:27:48,718 Get to moksha, which is the salvation of the soul. 516 00:27:48,779 --> 00:27:49,226 Right. 517 00:27:49,287 --> 00:27:52,775 And the karma dictates how fast 518 00:27:52,836 --> 00:27:55,648 or slow you go towards moksha. 519 00:27:55,815 --> 00:27:56,888 It's not a sprint, 520 00:27:57,271 --> 00:27:58,309 it's a marathon. 521 00:27:58,438 --> 00:28:00,269 So, we've gotta be patient 522 00:28:00,667 --> 00:28:01,836 and we've gotta persevere. 523 00:28:02,032 --> 00:28:03,852 But with faith as your light, 524 00:28:04,815 --> 00:28:05,721 you will get there. 525 00:28:06,067 --> 00:28:09,217 You just explained a lot of stuff with that one sentence. 526 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:10,894 Thank you. 527 00:28:11,226 --> 00:28:12,381 You're welcome. 528 00:28:15,663 --> 00:28:17,227 After celebrating at home, 529 00:28:17,617 --> 00:28:20,256 this third and most important day of Diwali, 530 00:28:20,317 --> 00:28:23,166 culminates with families going to the temple. 531 00:28:29,677 --> 00:28:31,709 The rituals done in the home 532 00:28:31,952 --> 00:28:33,939 are performed again as a community, 533 00:28:34,165 --> 00:28:35,959 on a much grander scale. 534 00:28:55,328 --> 00:28:57,166 The last ritual of the evening, 535 00:28:57,513 --> 00:29:00,443 is the ultimate display of light overcoming darkness, 536 00:29:04,090 --> 00:29:07,029 clearing away the bad karma of the past year, 537 00:29:07,231 --> 00:29:10,758 and lighting the way toward the liberation of the soul. 538 00:29:25,137 --> 00:29:29,042 Just like the yearly cleansing of the monsoon rains in India, 539 00:29:29,829 --> 00:29:32,939 Diwali is a time for Hindus to clean up their karma, 540 00:29:33,409 --> 00:29:37,137 to renew their efforts to avoid the temptations of selfishness, 541 00:29:38,538 --> 00:29:40,890 to keep working on moksha, 542 00:29:41,451 --> 00:29:42,958 or liberation. 543 00:29:44,786 --> 00:29:46,961 We all make mistakes in judgement. 544 00:29:47,626 --> 00:29:48,655 Our conscience, 545 00:29:48,818 --> 00:29:50,317 often guided by faith, 546 00:29:50,694 --> 00:29:52,306 leads us to correct them. 547 00:29:53,181 --> 00:29:56,264 But faith can also drive us to commit sins, 548 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,442 and believe we have done nothing wrong. 549 00:30:15,987 --> 00:30:18,083 The Christian idea of sin, 550 00:30:18,382 --> 00:30:20,800 has shaped how western civilization 551 00:30:20,861 --> 00:30:23,360 grapples with questions of right and wrong. 552 00:30:30,176 --> 00:30:33,939 But I want to understand sin from a different perspective. 553 00:30:34,802 --> 00:30:36,595 So I've come to Vietnam, 554 00:30:39,353 --> 00:30:42,542 a country with three overlapping religious traditions: 555 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:44,279 Confucianism, 556 00:30:44,892 --> 00:30:45,759 Taoism 557 00:30:46,376 --> 00:30:47,417 and Buddhism. 558 00:30:54,683 --> 00:30:56,865 This country was devastated by war 559 00:30:56,926 --> 00:30:58,566 for much of the 20th Century. 560 00:30:59,585 --> 00:31:02,323 Sin is an inevitable part of war. 561 00:31:03,896 --> 00:31:05,957 American bombing campaigns 562 00:31:06,018 --> 00:31:08,573 killed tens of thousands of civilians. 563 00:31:10,216 --> 00:31:12,688 Vietcong executed tens of thousands 564 00:31:12,749 --> 00:31:14,280 of South Vietnamese villagers, 565 00:31:15,250 --> 00:31:18,901 and were infamous for torturing captured Americans. 566 00:31:22,815 --> 00:31:24,229 Here, in Hanoi, 567 00:31:24,290 --> 00:31:27,454 the Hoa Lo Prison held hundreds of American POWs, 568 00:31:28,262 --> 00:31:30,344 they knew it as the Hanoi Hilton. 569 00:31:36,518 --> 00:31:38,487 I'm meeting Tran Trong Duyet, 570 00:31:38,912 --> 00:31:40,020 the former Director, 571 00:31:40,169 --> 00:31:43,111 to understand how he looks back on those days now. 572 00:31:43,446 --> 00:31:45,250 Mr. Duyet, so nice to meet you. 573 00:31:45,457 --> 00:31:46,144 And you. 574 00:31:46,519 --> 00:31:48,885 So, this is the famous Hanoi Hilton? 575 00:31:49,497 --> 00:31:50,560 You worked here? 576 00:31:56,159 --> 00:31:57,834 I'd like to talk to you some more about that. 577 00:31:57,895 --> 00:32:00,196 Let's go and sit down and talk. Okay? 578 00:32:01,582 --> 00:32:04,222 Perhaps the most famous prisoner at Hoa Lo, 579 00:32:04,623 --> 00:32:06,469 was a young John McCain, 580 00:32:09,587 --> 00:32:12,142 who was taken there in 1967, 581 00:32:12,276 --> 00:32:14,797 after he was shot down over North Vietnam. 582 00:32:16,031 --> 00:32:19,084 McCain never fully recovered from the physical 583 00:32:19,237 --> 00:32:22,525 and mental torture he suffered at the hands of his captors. 584 00:32:31,384 --> 00:32:32,768 Now, that's John McCain, 585 00:32:33,281 --> 00:32:34,815 yeah, and that's you, right? 586 00:32:35,308 --> 00:32:36,042 Yeah. 587 00:32:36,785 --> 00:32:41,130 So, can you share your memories 588 00:32:41,191 --> 00:32:43,199 of John McCain with us? 589 00:32:46,588 --> 00:32:48,337 What I remember the most was, 590 00:32:48,430 --> 00:32:51,367 when we come to meet together 591 00:32:51,714 --> 00:32:53,573 after my working time, 592 00:32:53,853 --> 00:32:55,843 and he'd teach me English, 593 00:32:55,904 --> 00:32:58,437 and we talked together, just like friends, 594 00:32:58,703 --> 00:33:02,518 and we had a very kind of, like, friendly relationship. 595 00:33:03,658 --> 00:33:04,345 Interesting. 596 00:33:04,738 --> 00:33:07,059 Well McCain says that he was tortured. 597 00:33:07,833 --> 00:33:09,375 Does that fit your recollection? 598 00:33:12,510 --> 00:33:16,127 I have to say there was no torture at all. 599 00:33:16,419 --> 00:33:17,818 John McCain was my friend. 600 00:33:18,405 --> 00:33:20,272 So you're saying that there was no torture at all. 601 00:33:20,333 --> 00:33:21,297 He was never tortured? 602 00:33:22,188 --> 00:33:25,478 100%, no torture. 603 00:33:25,783 --> 00:33:26,790 We save him. 604 00:33:27,215 --> 00:33:28,680 He nearly die 605 00:33:29,126 --> 00:33:32,262 when he gone into the lake in Hanoi. 606 00:33:32,328 --> 00:33:36,332 And we actually rescue him and cure him. 607 00:33:37,052 --> 00:33:37,815 Okay. 608 00:33:38,330 --> 00:33:40,773 Well let me just ask you in a general sense. 609 00:33:41,885 --> 00:33:45,035 Do you have any feelings about that scenario, 610 00:33:45,095 --> 00:33:47,358 where people regret what they did in prison, 611 00:33:47,846 --> 00:33:49,317 or during war? 612 00:33:54,104 --> 00:33:57,358 In the war, of course, there's no other choice. 613 00:33:57,418 --> 00:33:59,562 It's a duty of each soldier 614 00:34:00,155 --> 00:34:01,631 to do what they were told. 615 00:34:02,239 --> 00:34:03,901 I am really proud, 616 00:34:04,341 --> 00:34:05,771 that I tried my best, 617 00:34:06,356 --> 00:34:08,766 to do the duty to my country. 618 00:34:14,676 --> 00:34:17,224 I'm not sure whether Mr. Duyet 619 00:34:17,285 --> 00:34:20,075 simply doesn't remember what happened in the war, 620 00:34:20,572 --> 00:34:22,401 whether he's avoiding the truth, 621 00:34:23,021 --> 00:34:25,057 or whether his apparent lack of guilt 622 00:34:25,118 --> 00:34:28,070 stems from a difference in cultural perspective. 623 00:34:29,208 --> 00:34:30,349 To gain insight, 624 00:34:30,410 --> 00:34:33,892 I'm going to Hanoi's Confucian Temple of Literature, 625 00:34:34,755 --> 00:34:37,132 to meet Dr. Duong Ngoc Dung, 626 00:34:37,432 --> 00:34:39,175 a professor of religious studies. 627 00:34:39,652 --> 00:34:40,919 Dr. Dung, I presume? 628 00:34:40,979 --> 00:34:42,575 Oh, yeah. Are you Mr. Freeman? 629 00:34:42,635 --> 00:34:43,608 I am Mr. Freeman. 630 00:34:43,669 --> 00:34:44,755 Okay, please. Please. 631 00:34:44,816 --> 00:34:45,596 -Thank you. -Okay. 632 00:34:47,709 --> 00:34:49,379 Now, I had this conversation 633 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,288 with the Head of the Hanoi Hilton. 634 00:34:51,349 --> 00:34:52,827 Oh yeah, yeah, I know him. 635 00:34:53,651 --> 00:34:56,003 Were there some bad things that happened, 636 00:34:56,309 --> 00:34:59,634 and his idea was that if so, 637 00:35:00,243 --> 00:35:01,688 it doesn't really matter. 638 00:35:01,796 --> 00:35:03,217 Because yes, you're a soldier, yes. 639 00:35:03,277 --> 00:35:03,756 Yeah. 640 00:35:03,932 --> 00:35:05,973 He's say, soldier to soldier, 641 00:35:06,620 --> 00:35:08,083 it's an even deal. 642 00:35:08,236 --> 00:35:08,833 Okay. 643 00:35:08,894 --> 00:35:10,012 Big question is, 644 00:35:10,492 --> 00:35:13,633 do the Vietnamese look at sin the way we in the west do? 645 00:35:14,426 --> 00:35:17,834 The dominant religion in Vietnam is Buddhism, 646 00:35:18,144 --> 00:35:21,578 but the dominant moral education 647 00:35:21,639 --> 00:35:24,178 teachings is Confucianism. 648 00:35:24,919 --> 00:35:26,636 According to Confucian philosophy, 649 00:35:26,799 --> 00:35:30,360 we sin because we are not well educated. 650 00:35:30,768 --> 00:35:34,317 There are five cardinal laws of morality. 651 00:35:34,987 --> 00:35:36,738 Number one thing is benevolence, 652 00:35:37,087 --> 00:35:38,630 and then righteousness, 653 00:35:39,157 --> 00:35:42,081 trust, wisdom and then social rituals. 654 00:35:42,661 --> 00:35:44,396 These five cardinal rules, 655 00:35:45,650 --> 00:35:47,286 if I break one 'em, I haven't done 656 00:35:47,347 --> 00:35:49,113 anything as far as God is concerned, 657 00:35:49,295 --> 00:35:52,526 I've actually sinned against society? 658 00:35:52,592 --> 00:35:54,352 -Yeah. Against society, yes. -Yeah. 659 00:35:54,671 --> 00:35:57,427 You destroy your social relationship. 660 00:35:57,779 --> 00:36:00,194 Confucian ethics is very practical. 661 00:36:00,368 --> 00:36:03,001 It is not metaphysical, it is not philosophical. 662 00:36:03,246 --> 00:36:06,211 It just asks us to do something 663 00:36:07,130 --> 00:36:11,037 that we want people to do the same thing to us. 664 00:36:11,517 --> 00:36:12,284 Golden Rule: 665 00:36:12,345 --> 00:36:14,585 Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. 666 00:36:14,646 --> 00:36:15,256 Exactly. 667 00:36:15,513 --> 00:36:18,732 So a good, concise explanation 668 00:36:18,872 --> 00:36:22,394 of Confucian philosophy would be what? 669 00:36:23,655 --> 00:36:25,563 Something like, we should be... 670 00:36:26,004 --> 00:36:29,202 personally responsible for social harmony. 671 00:36:29,604 --> 00:36:31,268 Brings up the question, however, 672 00:36:31,398 --> 00:36:34,234 of a whole society going off the rails, 673 00:36:34,407 --> 00:36:35,900 like Nazi Germany. 674 00:36:36,301 --> 00:36:38,137 The holocaust happened because... 675 00:36:38,238 --> 00:36:39,766 the community allowed it to happen. 676 00:36:40,066 --> 00:36:40,930 Yes, of course. 677 00:36:41,271 --> 00:36:42,588 One of the weaknesses 678 00:36:42,975 --> 00:36:44,447 of Confucian philosophy is that 679 00:36:44,649 --> 00:36:46,353 it has put a lot of power 680 00:36:46,467 --> 00:36:47,754 on the role of the King. 681 00:36:48,652 --> 00:36:50,226 So if the King is a good guy, 682 00:36:50,816 --> 00:36:52,004 people can benefit. 683 00:36:52,215 --> 00:36:53,785 But if the King is a bad guy, 684 00:36:53,846 --> 00:36:55,465 oh my God, everything, you know... 685 00:36:55,699 --> 00:36:57,124 Everything goes to pieces. 686 00:36:57,184 --> 00:36:59,030 Yes, yes, exactly like that. 687 00:36:59,287 --> 00:37:03,313 Confucian ethics act like glue holding society together. 688 00:37:04,570 --> 00:37:06,331 But under despotic leaders, 689 00:37:06,392 --> 00:37:08,638 or the immense pressure of war, 690 00:37:09,138 --> 00:37:10,476 the Confucian mandate 691 00:37:10,537 --> 00:37:13,224 to be a good member of society can blind people 692 00:37:14,007 --> 00:37:16,303 to the fundamental morality of their actions, 693 00:37:17,179 --> 00:37:18,678 even in retrospect. 694 00:37:21,019 --> 00:37:23,289 So now let's go back to the idea 695 00:37:23,649 --> 00:37:26,279 of Mr. Duyet at the prison. 696 00:37:26,951 --> 00:37:30,656 Because, his thinking is that 697 00:37:30,717 --> 00:37:33,242 if you're in uniform you're bound to do it, 698 00:37:33,303 --> 00:37:35,062 it doesn't matter what it is. 699 00:37:35,774 --> 00:37:38,708 Personally, I think he's totally wrong. 700 00:37:39,018 --> 00:37:41,168 I can refuse because I'm human being. 701 00:37:41,228 --> 00:37:42,870 -You can think. -Okay. 702 00:37:42,931 --> 00:37:44,348 Right, Confucius, 703 00:37:44,409 --> 00:37:48,380 he lives in the perfectibility of human nature. 704 00:37:48,918 --> 00:37:50,855 You should think before you do something, right? 705 00:37:54,762 --> 00:37:56,662 Nothing in life is more liberating 706 00:37:57,217 --> 00:38:00,587 than to fight for a cause that is larger than yourself. 707 00:38:01,805 --> 00:38:04,899 Now that might be a bit of Confucian wisdom, 708 00:38:05,337 --> 00:38:06,237 but in fact, 709 00:38:06,710 --> 00:38:09,056 those are the words of Senator John McCain. 710 00:38:10,141 --> 00:38:12,662 The Confucian tradition of Vietnam, 711 00:38:13,346 --> 00:38:17,223 drives its people to do what society asks them to do; 712 00:38:18,618 --> 00:38:20,684 but that doesn't mean that its adherents 713 00:38:20,745 --> 00:38:24,197 must blindly follow a leader down a path towards sin. 714 00:38:25,699 --> 00:38:29,285 Confucius would expect us to be well-mannered, 715 00:38:29,779 --> 00:38:30,687 to be trustful, 716 00:38:31,475 --> 00:38:32,646 to have a good head 717 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:34,060 and a good heart. 718 00:38:37,939 --> 00:38:40,258 But when society goes off the rails, 719 00:38:42,608 --> 00:38:45,696 and people commit the most heinous of sins, 720 00:38:47,358 --> 00:38:49,353 can there ever be forgiveness? 721 00:38:59,306 --> 00:39:02,059 The town of Terezin, in the Czech Republic, is a 722 00:39:02,436 --> 00:39:06,177 memorial to one of the most horrific sins in human history, 723 00:39:09,557 --> 00:39:10,675 The Holocaust. 724 00:39:13,837 --> 00:39:16,917 The Nazis turned the town into a Jewish prison ghetto. 725 00:39:17,807 --> 00:39:18,526 From here, 726 00:39:18,778 --> 00:39:22,907 they sent nearly 140,000 Jews to extermination camps. 727 00:39:26,609 --> 00:39:28,153 Christianity teaches that 728 00:39:28,634 --> 00:39:30,498 all things can be forgiven. 729 00:39:31,924 --> 00:39:33,650 But how do you forgive a sin, 730 00:39:33,871 --> 00:39:35,477 as monstrous as this? 731 00:39:41,313 --> 00:39:44,409 Rainer Hoess is a German activist, 732 00:39:45,399 --> 00:39:47,542 who has devoted his life to reckoning 733 00:39:47,603 --> 00:39:49,296 with the crimes of the Holocaust. 734 00:39:51,081 --> 00:39:53,764 He has come to meet Dr. Tomas Kraus, 735 00:39:54,140 --> 00:39:55,804 a Jewish community leader, 736 00:39:56,211 --> 00:39:59,366 to understand the sins that were committed at Terezin. 737 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:01,933 Hello. Nice to meet you. 738 00:40:02,065 --> 00:40:03,219 Nice to meet you, the same. 739 00:40:03,646 --> 00:40:07,173 So, let me know a little bit more about your history... 740 00:40:07,943 --> 00:40:08,618 here. 741 00:40:09,196 --> 00:40:10,556 Here, we are in Terezin, 742 00:40:10,681 --> 00:40:13,183 and behind us is the ghetto. 743 00:40:14,208 --> 00:40:17,185 The trains were going right into the ghetto, 744 00:40:17,465 --> 00:40:19,640 and the gates closed after the trains. 745 00:40:21,985 --> 00:40:22,658 And then, 746 00:40:22,985 --> 00:40:25,346 actually, they took the people out of the ghetto 747 00:40:25,407 --> 00:40:27,177 and they were sending them to Auschwitz. 748 00:40:29,119 --> 00:40:31,553 So it starts here in Terezin, and it ends up 749 00:40:32,087 --> 00:40:34,554 in the... in the way of Auschwitz. 750 00:40:35,278 --> 00:40:37,556 My father was sent here to Terezin 751 00:40:37,617 --> 00:40:39,052 with the very first transport. 752 00:40:39,725 --> 00:40:41,771 It was November 1941. 753 00:40:42,892 --> 00:40:45,728 The family of my mother was also affected. 754 00:40:48,968 --> 00:40:51,655 She was from a family with seven children, 755 00:40:51,716 --> 00:40:53,647 and she was the only one who survived. 756 00:40:54,698 --> 00:40:56,344 So we are very... 757 00:40:56,647 --> 00:40:58,950 emotionally attached to this place. 758 00:40:59,297 --> 00:41:00,951 Wow! Oh my goodness. 759 00:41:04,649 --> 00:41:06,469 This is the main entrance. 760 00:41:06,530 --> 00:41:08,196 And as you can see, it's black and white. 761 00:41:08,573 --> 00:41:09,588 Very symbolic. 762 00:41:09,991 --> 00:41:11,941 Some people say that it's swallowing people. 763 00:41:14,639 --> 00:41:16,777 The prison was meant to be a holding place 764 00:41:16,838 --> 00:41:18,778 for Jewish and political prisoners, 765 00:41:20,275 --> 00:41:21,918 but inmates were tortured, 766 00:41:22,242 --> 00:41:24,065 hanged, or shot. 767 00:41:29,752 --> 00:41:31,189 And over there now, 768 00:41:32,061 --> 00:41:33,540 this is the Tunnel of Death, 769 00:41:34,184 --> 00:41:36,661 and nobody who was behind it, 770 00:41:36,965 --> 00:41:38,757 would come out alive. 771 00:41:54,481 --> 00:41:56,346 This is the Jewish cell here, 772 00:41:56,875 --> 00:41:57,971 which is for us, 773 00:41:58,536 --> 00:42:00,508 a very important site, because, 774 00:42:01,361 --> 00:42:04,141 it was used for Jews from the ghetto, 775 00:42:05,077 --> 00:42:06,124 as a punishment. 776 00:42:06,456 --> 00:42:07,903 And in the cell, 777 00:42:07,964 --> 00:42:10,090 which was built only for a dozen of people, 778 00:42:10,151 --> 00:42:13,465 at one time it had, like, 90 people. 779 00:42:13,901 --> 00:42:14,992 And none of them survived? 780 00:42:15,053 --> 00:42:16,064 None of them survived. 781 00:42:18,228 --> 00:42:19,576 It's sad. 782 00:42:19,637 --> 00:42:22,379 It's a strange feeling to be here. Everything... 783 00:42:23,219 --> 00:42:25,594 shows me exactly what I saw in Auschwitz, 784 00:42:25,655 --> 00:42:26,884 what I saw in Buchenwald, 785 00:42:27,005 --> 00:42:28,625 in Majdanek, in Treblinka, 786 00:42:28,825 --> 00:42:31,897 in all these different, disgusting camps. 787 00:42:32,795 --> 00:42:34,921 My grandfather organized the genocide. 788 00:42:35,807 --> 00:42:36,992 He was a master in it. 789 00:42:40,499 --> 00:42:42,883 Rainer's grandfather was Rudolf Hoess, 790 00:42:45,658 --> 00:42:48,889 the commandant of the Auschwitz Extermination Camp, 791 00:42:49,558 --> 00:42:53,022 and one of the chief architects of Hitler's final solution. 792 00:42:55,403 --> 00:42:56,704 At his trial, 793 00:42:57,334 --> 00:42:59,651 Hoess admitted his role in the Holocaust 794 00:43:00,369 --> 00:43:01,907 and was sentenced to death. 795 00:43:03,615 --> 00:43:06,411 Before his execution in 1947, 796 00:43:06,971 --> 00:43:08,499 Hoess gave confession 797 00:43:08,745 --> 00:43:10,135 and was absolved 798 00:43:10,495 --> 00:43:11,939 by a Catholic priest. 799 00:43:13,732 --> 00:43:15,023 But Hoess's sins 800 00:43:15,570 --> 00:43:16,800 were not eradicated. 801 00:43:19,117 --> 00:43:22,291 They have scarred the lives of countless Jewish families, 802 00:43:22,689 --> 00:43:25,020 generation upon generation. 803 00:43:26,170 --> 00:43:27,560 They've also left their mark 804 00:43:28,174 --> 00:43:29,417 on Rainer Hoess. 805 00:43:31,893 --> 00:43:32,925 What is your feeling? 806 00:43:33,581 --> 00:43:36,220 Do you feel any responsibility? 807 00:43:36,723 --> 00:43:38,485 Well I'm not guilty, I wasn't even born 808 00:43:38,546 --> 00:43:39,991 when things like that happened. 809 00:43:41,694 --> 00:43:43,668 But responsibility, of course. 810 00:43:44,798 --> 00:43:46,725 My family is not dealing with it. 811 00:43:47,525 --> 00:43:48,541 So they're big deniers, 812 00:43:48,706 --> 00:43:50,924 they glorify more my grandfather. 813 00:43:51,738 --> 00:43:53,052 It never happens. 814 00:43:53,750 --> 00:43:55,431 I'm the black sheep in my family. 815 00:43:55,981 --> 00:43:58,476 But I'm proud to be the black sheep. 816 00:43:59,703 --> 00:44:01,806 I'm wearing a cruelty name. 817 00:44:03,074 --> 00:44:06,296 I think it's important to use the name 818 00:44:06,357 --> 00:44:07,817 to change things in life. 819 00:44:08,873 --> 00:44:10,366 So this is our joint mission; 820 00:44:10,427 --> 00:44:12,403 because I feel also my responsibility. 821 00:44:12,464 --> 00:44:15,827 I have to give the witness of my parents 822 00:44:16,134 --> 00:44:16,947 to further generations. 823 00:44:17,311 --> 00:44:19,804 Your grandfather was the one in Auschwitz... 824 00:44:19,865 --> 00:44:20,984 The Master of Hell. 825 00:44:21,489 --> 00:44:24,872 And my father was the prisoner there. 826 00:44:25,836 --> 00:44:29,279 So it's very important that we not only are admitting, 827 00:44:29,340 --> 00:44:31,812 it's very important that we are sending out the message... 828 00:44:32,273 --> 00:44:33,135 to the world. 829 00:44:33,985 --> 00:44:36,236 My father, and my mother, by miracle, 830 00:44:37,217 --> 00:44:39,487 they survived and they came back from the camps. 831 00:44:39,847 --> 00:44:43,735 Their main slogan was, 'Never again. Never again.' 832 00:44:43,850 --> 00:44:45,985 It was a mantra for them. 'Never again'. 833 00:44:46,756 --> 00:44:49,076 It's on us, the second, third generations 834 00:44:49,137 --> 00:44:50,682 continue to take the torch. 835 00:44:54,151 --> 00:44:56,529 It's interesting, your pin, Zachor. 836 00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:57,846 Remember. 837 00:44:57,907 --> 00:44:58,807 Why you have it? 838 00:44:58,868 --> 00:45:01,018 It is together with the survivors. 839 00:45:01,599 --> 00:45:04,635 We deliver it to pupils and people in the world, 840 00:45:04,852 --> 00:45:06,219 1.6 million times. 841 00:45:06,707 --> 00:45:10,630 And, our idea was that, if you use that pin, 842 00:45:11,017 --> 00:45:13,383 maybe in the jewellery box at home, 843 00:45:13,808 --> 00:45:17,555 sometimes one of the grand kids or kids ask about it. 844 00:45:18,048 --> 00:45:20,519 So it gets delivered over centuries, 845 00:45:20,859 --> 00:45:21,825 over generations. 846 00:45:22,478 --> 00:45:23,693 It's a wonderful idea, 847 00:45:23,915 --> 00:45:26,186 because this is how you fight. 848 00:45:29,932 --> 00:45:31,129 If we do nothing, 849 00:45:31,512 --> 00:45:32,052 we learned nothing. 850 00:45:32,705 --> 00:45:33,321 Exactly. 851 00:45:33,382 --> 00:45:35,369 I think that's the message I deliver. 852 00:45:36,241 --> 00:45:38,444 And we have to raise our warning finger, 853 00:45:39,671 --> 00:45:41,753 because it's a never ending story. 854 00:45:44,804 --> 00:45:47,032 The teachings of Christianity ask us 855 00:45:47,093 --> 00:45:50,129 to hold two seemingly contradictory ideas 856 00:45:50,190 --> 00:45:51,225 at the same time: 857 00:45:52,192 --> 00:45:54,065 that sin must be forgiven, 858 00:45:54,703 --> 00:45:57,890 but that we inherit original sin. 859 00:45:59,024 --> 00:46:01,249 Well it may not be so contradictory, 860 00:46:02,150 --> 00:46:03,786 'cause it points to a subtle truth, 861 00:46:04,782 --> 00:46:07,254 that all sin can ultimately be forgiven, 862 00:46:08,157 --> 00:46:09,751 but it takes honesty, 863 00:46:10,124 --> 00:46:11,071 courage, 864 00:46:11,552 --> 00:46:14,392 and sometimes many lifetimes of work. 865 00:46:23,784 --> 00:46:26,465 Religions differ in how they define sin, 866 00:46:28,382 --> 00:46:31,640 but all faiths strive to steer us away 867 00:46:31,701 --> 00:46:32,941 from our baser instincts, 868 00:46:34,002 --> 00:46:35,518 our selfishness. 869 00:46:38,281 --> 00:46:40,538 They make us wrestle with right and wrong. 870 00:46:42,078 --> 00:46:43,234 They keep us honest 871 00:46:43,295 --> 00:46:44,692 about our own failings, 872 00:46:45,742 --> 00:46:47,876 and help us to ask for, 873 00:46:48,402 --> 00:46:50,477 and offer, forgiveness. 874 00:46:51,308 --> 00:46:52,690 A poet once wrote, 875 00:46:53,447 --> 00:46:54,753 'To err is human, 876 00:46:56,073 --> 00:46:57,068 to forgive, 877 00:46:57,792 --> 00:46:58,733 divine.' 878 00:47:01,419 --> 00:47:02,476 Forgiveness, 879 00:47:03,959 --> 00:47:05,546 I think this may be the best 880 00:47:05,689 --> 00:47:06,719 of human qualities. 64128

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