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When I was six years
old we moved to Chicago,
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00:00:11,434 --> 00:00:13,193
a little country boy
in the big city.
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00:00:14,293 --> 00:00:15,205
While I was there,
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00:00:15,266 --> 00:00:17,094
you won't believe the
things I saw people do:
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00:00:17,716 --> 00:00:20,462
theft, vandalism,
sometimes worse.
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00:00:21,468 --> 00:00:23,819
Things were different in
small town Mississippi,
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00:00:24,433 --> 00:00:25,721
where everyone knows everyone.
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00:00:26,251 --> 00:00:28,260
If you were up to no good,
you'd never get away with it.
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00:00:29,343 --> 00:00:33,354
But the anonymity of a densely
populated city, like Chicago,
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00:00:33,654 --> 00:00:36,968
seemed to expose a more
primal aspect of human nature.
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00:00:38,500 --> 00:00:40,096
Religions call it sin.
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00:00:41,529 --> 00:00:43,090
And faiths around the globe
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00:00:43,540 --> 00:00:44,643
have their own prescriptions
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00:00:45,016 --> 00:00:47,874
for preventing,
and punishing, sin.
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00:00:49,018 --> 00:00:51,581
I wonder, if we put all
those ideas together,
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00:00:52,448 --> 00:00:54,364
could we actually conquer sin?
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00:00:57,474 --> 00:01:00,240
I'm travelling to the front
lines of our battle with sin.
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00:01:02,138 --> 00:01:04,660
From blood-soaked
mass rituals...
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00:01:04,952 --> 00:01:07,676
So this is where sin went viral?
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00:01:11,041 --> 00:01:12,930
To a festival
that conquers evil.
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00:01:13,311 --> 00:01:17,813
We light candles everywhere
and remove the evil from us.
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00:01:18,343 --> 00:01:19,747
I'll meet an executioner,
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00:01:20,510 --> 00:01:21,638
tortured by guilt...
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00:01:22,142 --> 00:01:24,996
Why do I have to continue to
sin over and over and over,
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00:01:25,057 --> 00:01:26,481
when I know it's wrong?
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00:01:28,678 --> 00:01:30,010
And the Hanoi jailer
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00:01:30,164 --> 00:01:31,724
who seems blind to it.
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00:01:32,406 --> 00:01:33,869
John McCain was my friend.
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00:01:34,639 --> 00:01:37,012
I'll learn about
purging sin from a corpse...
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00:01:37,385 --> 00:01:39,807
They would lay this directly on
the dead body and then eat it.
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00:01:41,553 --> 00:01:43,469
And ask if the biggest sins...
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00:01:43,530 --> 00:01:45,993
So your grandfather
was the one in Auschwitz?
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00:01:46,054 --> 00:01:47,395
The Master of Hell.
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00:01:47,493 --> 00:01:48,973
can ever be forgiven.
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00:02:01,987 --> 00:02:05,035
Every year, on Good
Friday in the Philippines,
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00:02:05,641 --> 00:02:07,449
the people of the
town of San Pedro
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00:02:07,510 --> 00:02:10,016
re-enact the Passion of Christ.
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00:02:16,873 --> 00:02:20,355
They parade a man, portraying
Jesus, to a small hill,
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00:02:21,139 --> 00:02:22,627
where they nail him to a cross,
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00:02:23,031 --> 00:02:24,542
using real nails,
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and crucify him.
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00:02:38,230 --> 00:02:39,909
But that's not the only aspect
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00:02:39,970 --> 00:02:42,198
of Christ's agony they recreate.
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00:02:46,618 --> 00:02:48,674
Many villagers whip themselves,
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00:02:49,116 --> 00:02:52,299
just as the Bible says
Roman soldiers whipped Jesus.
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00:02:54,281 --> 00:02:56,307
Sharp pieces of bamboo make sure
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00:02:56,368 --> 00:02:58,207
the whips draw plenty of blood.
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00:03:04,485 --> 00:03:07,065
What could drive
shopkeepers and taxi drivers
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00:03:07,755 --> 00:03:09,867
to take up such a bloody ritual?
50
00:03:13,887 --> 00:03:15,858
The answer lies across the globe
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00:03:16,263 --> 00:03:17,723
in Perugia, Italy.
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00:03:21,628 --> 00:03:24,411
I'm meeting historian,
Roberto Rusconi,
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00:03:24,472 --> 00:03:25,835
at the Church of San Bevignate.
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00:03:32,987 --> 00:03:36,447
Inside frescoes from
nearly 800 years ago,
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00:03:36,930 --> 00:03:40,468
tell the strange story
of how self-flagellation,
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00:03:40,679 --> 00:03:41,707
went viral.
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00:03:43,017 --> 00:03:44,503
You see here, they...
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00:03:44,871 --> 00:03:47,357
made a representation
of the Flagellants.
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00:03:48,634 --> 00:03:52,224
They are scourging themselves
naked to the waist.
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00:03:53,154 --> 00:03:54,861
The monks in the monasteries,
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00:03:54,921 --> 00:03:57,392
they used to make
this kind of penance,
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00:03:57,725 --> 00:04:01,071
to wash away every
sin in your soul.
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00:04:01,676 --> 00:04:04,436
But what made them
think that flagellation
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00:04:04,497 --> 00:04:06,095
would make them right with God?
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00:04:06,937 --> 00:04:09,606
We have to make
expiation for our sins,
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00:04:09,955 --> 00:04:12,582
and the only way is
scourge ourselves,
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00:04:12,926 --> 00:04:16,585
and be beaten as Jesus
Christ was beaten.
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00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,477
Our souls, as you know,
have the original sin
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00:04:19,538 --> 00:04:23,411
and you have to wash away
every part of it in your soul.
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00:04:23,898 --> 00:04:25,863
And you have to
wash it with your own blood?
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00:04:25,924 --> 00:04:29,341
Yes. It was more
effective than soap.
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00:04:35,382 --> 00:04:37,728
The Christian concept
of original sin,
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00:04:38,038 --> 00:04:41,354
began when Adam and Eve ate
from the forbidden tree.
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00:04:44,736 --> 00:04:48,160
Their defiance of God corrupted
the entire human race,
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00:04:48,768 --> 00:04:51,230
making sin something
even devout monks
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00:04:51,291 --> 00:04:53,004
must purge through penance.
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00:05:00,688 --> 00:05:04,021
But the walls of San Bevignate
reveal something more,
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00:05:04,790 --> 00:05:07,733
how flagellation spread
from the monastery
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00:05:08,046 --> 00:05:09,769
to the everyday believer.
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00:05:11,245 --> 00:05:14,165
So, in the corner,
you see their representation
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00:05:14,226 --> 00:05:16,673
to be the image
of Raniero Fasani.
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00:05:16,733 --> 00:05:18,547
Raniero Fasani.
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00:05:18,608 --> 00:05:21,551
Raniero Fasani's a normal
person, a lay person.
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00:05:21,704 --> 00:05:25,195
He had visions when Our
Lady appeared to him.
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00:05:29,082 --> 00:05:32,867
Fasani had taken up the
practice of self-flagellation.
86
00:05:39,589 --> 00:05:41,710
Then, in 1260,
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00:05:42,071 --> 00:05:44,362
he had a vision of
the Virgin Mary.
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00:05:47,557 --> 00:05:50,467
She told him that the
common people, like him,
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00:05:50,843 --> 00:05:55,020
needed to purge their sins through
a great public flagellation.
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00:05:56,438 --> 00:05:59,905
Fasani began urging the
Perugians to whip themselves.
91
00:06:05,059 --> 00:06:07,483
The Holy Mother came
to him and said,
92
00:06:07,577 --> 00:06:11,480
'Listen, this is not just for
monks, this is for everybody.'
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00:06:11,541 --> 00:06:13,339
You gotta go back and tell them,
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00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:15,035
'Get out there and
start whipping.'
95
00:06:15,096 --> 00:06:18,605
Yes. Don't rely on
monks, do it yourself.
96
00:06:19,448 --> 00:06:20,982
So Fasani has his vision.
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00:06:21,043 --> 00:06:23,306
He comes in and he explains it,
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00:06:23,803 --> 00:06:24,283
and...
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00:06:25,943 --> 00:06:26,880
people followed him?
100
00:06:26,941 --> 00:06:29,028
So, he was followed
by a lot of people
101
00:06:29,089 --> 00:06:32,391
in town and countryside,
and they started scourging,
102
00:06:32,601 --> 00:06:35,981
as he suggested, and it became
a practice for lay people.
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00:06:36,444 --> 00:06:38,180
It went out from the walls
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00:06:38,771 --> 00:06:41,118
of the churches and
it entered the square.
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00:06:46,202 --> 00:06:49,611
And it happened here in
Perugia, in the year 1260.
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00:06:52,449 --> 00:06:55,770
This place was crowded
with thousands of people.
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00:06:55,831 --> 00:06:56,766
All flagellating?
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00:06:56,827 --> 00:06:57,861
All flagellating.
109
00:06:58,835 --> 00:07:00,064
They're drawing blood?
110
00:07:00,314 --> 00:07:03,772
So, the square would have been
covered with blood, right?
111
00:07:03,965 --> 00:07:04,629
Yes.
112
00:07:05,685 --> 00:07:09,135
As catastrophes like the Black
Death swept across Europe,
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00:07:09,508 --> 00:07:11,824
so did mass flagellations.
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00:07:12,788 --> 00:07:14,927
Believers thought
that bloody penance
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00:07:14,988 --> 00:07:18,316
would bring salvation in
this life and the next.
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00:07:19,477 --> 00:07:21,824
So, we're literally...
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standing in the square
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Yeah.
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00:07:24,719 --> 00:07:26,593
where sin went viral?
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00:07:26,970 --> 00:07:27,494
Yes.
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00:07:27,555 --> 00:07:28,980
It just spread out.
122
00:07:43,503 --> 00:07:44,396
It seems to me,
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00:07:45,552 --> 00:07:49,382
there was a deep human desire
to take action against sin,
124
00:07:50,128 --> 00:07:52,553
sometimes by beating
ourselves up.
125
00:07:53,416 --> 00:07:55,074
But to the Catholic faithful,
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00:07:55,435 --> 00:07:57,900
flagellation was
something more than that.
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00:07:58,562 --> 00:08:00,929
It was a way to share
the burdens of Jesus,
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00:08:01,208 --> 00:08:02,877
whom they believed died
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00:08:03,151 --> 00:08:05,341
to wipe away the
sins of humanity.
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00:08:06,395 --> 00:08:07,655
It does what...
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00:08:08,369 --> 00:08:10,261
penance is supposed to do,
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00:08:11,042 --> 00:08:12,527
bring us closer to God.
133
00:08:21,126 --> 00:08:23,314
But what if a sinner
doesn't do penance?
134
00:08:26,167 --> 00:08:28,118
Is there another
way back to God?
135
00:08:39,522 --> 00:08:42,277
In the misty borderlands
of England and Wales,
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00:08:43,131 --> 00:08:45,096
there once was a way.
137
00:08:50,847 --> 00:08:52,393
Journalist, Sal Masekela,
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00:08:52,462 --> 00:08:54,667
has come to the
village of Ratlinghope,
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00:08:55,089 --> 00:08:58,791
to learn about the lost
tradition of sin-eating.
140
00:09:09,976 --> 00:09:14,230
Dafydd Mills Daniels is a
religious scholar and theologian.
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00:09:14,291 --> 00:09:15,257
-Hey.
-Hello.
142
00:09:15,318 --> 00:09:16,178
-How are you?
-I'm Sal.
143
00:09:16,239 --> 00:09:17,058
How are you?
Nice to meet you.
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00:09:17,242 --> 00:09:18,735
-Dafydd?
-Yes, Dafydd. Yeah.
145
00:09:18,934 --> 00:09:21,065
This is a beautiful country.
146
00:09:21,162 --> 00:09:21,698
Yeah.
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00:09:21,759 --> 00:09:24,300
And we brought you here
because this is the home,
148
00:09:24,361 --> 00:09:26,751
or would have been the home,
of the very last sin-eater
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00:09:27,107 --> 00:09:29,579
in England, a man called Richard
Munslow, who died in 1906.
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00:09:30,550 --> 00:09:33,631
Munslow was a prosperous
farmer for much of his life,
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00:09:34,384 --> 00:09:37,618
but he died performing
bizarre rituals...
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00:09:37,919 --> 00:09:38,985
with the dead.
153
00:09:42,622 --> 00:09:43,379
Sin-eating.
154
00:09:44,055 --> 00:09:45,625
What exactly does that mean?
155
00:09:45,873 --> 00:09:48,806
Well, sin-eating was a practice
prevalent in this area,
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00:09:48,867 --> 00:09:50,942
England-Wales border,
about 500 years ago.
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00:09:51,003 --> 00:09:52,873
It started to die out
in the 19th Century.
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00:09:53,097 --> 00:09:55,009
And it was a practice
that involved
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00:09:55,565 --> 00:09:57,300
people taking on
other people's sins.
160
00:09:57,855 --> 00:09:59,496
And where does
the eating part come in?
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00:09:59,557 --> 00:10:00,808
Ah, right, it's a good question.
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00:10:00,869 --> 00:10:02,393
Why don't we go into the
barn and get some things,
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00:10:02,454 --> 00:10:03,417
and I'll show you
how that worked?
164
00:10:03,478 --> 00:10:04,315
Alright, cool.
165
00:10:07,785 --> 00:10:09,199
Okay, let's see if this is open.
166
00:10:14,073 --> 00:10:15,725
Yeah, so here we are
in Munslow's barn.
167
00:10:15,786 --> 00:10:17,047
Wow!
168
00:10:20,278 --> 00:10:21,605
Why don't you grab hold of...
169
00:10:21,666 --> 00:10:22,747
-These chairs?
-Yeah.
170
00:10:23,591 --> 00:10:24,664
And I'll take this board.
171
00:10:26,560 --> 00:10:28,401
So why don't you put
those chairs out there.
172
00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:29,629
Okay.
173
00:10:30,151 --> 00:10:32,128
So when you had a sudden death,
174
00:10:32,555 --> 00:10:35,463
and so it hadn't been possible
for a priest to come to the house
175
00:10:35,575 --> 00:10:36,917
for the person who died,
176
00:10:37,467 --> 00:10:39,429
and they'd sort of be considered
to die in a state of sin,
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00:10:40,073 --> 00:10:43,498
then the family may well
have called a sin-eater.
178
00:10:44,331 --> 00:10:45,219
What have you got there?
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00:10:45,817 --> 00:10:47,786
Well this is some
of the paraphernalia
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00:10:48,284 --> 00:10:49,313
of a sin-eater.
181
00:10:50,310 --> 00:10:51,139
And what they used...
182
00:10:51,422 --> 00:10:52,250
were things like this.
183
00:10:52,310 --> 00:10:54,294
So they would have
a wooden plate,
184
00:10:55,121 --> 00:10:56,023
a wooden bowl,
185
00:10:57,387 --> 00:10:58,075
some bread,
186
00:11:00,428 --> 00:11:01,555
and some salt.
187
00:11:06,430 --> 00:11:08,266
So, you'd have this process,
188
00:11:09,386 --> 00:11:10,660
usually outside the house.
189
00:11:12,091 --> 00:11:13,281
The body would be laid out.
190
00:11:16,673 --> 00:11:17,787
They would take out the salt,
191
00:11:18,599 --> 00:11:20,532
put it in the plate,
192
00:11:21,595 --> 00:11:22,879
put the bread on top of it
193
00:11:23,099 --> 00:11:25,128
and then actually lay this
directly on the dead body.
194
00:11:30,141 --> 00:11:31,018
Where a sin-eater
195
00:11:31,315 --> 00:11:33,523
would lift it up and eat it.
196
00:11:48,306 --> 00:11:50,555
They also consumed
liquid, as well as bread.
197
00:11:51,334 --> 00:11:52,493
So in some places milk,
198
00:11:52,996 --> 00:11:54,001
but also beer.
199
00:11:54,312 --> 00:11:56,677
And we'd pour it into the bowl.
200
00:11:56,815 --> 00:11:59,533
And again, the sin-eater would
lift it directly from the body.
201
00:12:03,070 --> 00:12:04,817
At the end of the
ceremony of sin-eating,
202
00:12:04,935 --> 00:12:05,979
the sin-eater would have said,
203
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:07,925
'I give easement and
rest now to thee,
204
00:12:07,998 --> 00:12:09,757
come not down the lanes
or in our meadows,
205
00:12:09,818 --> 00:12:11,812
and for thy peace I
pawn mine own soul.'
206
00:12:11,905 --> 00:12:13,155
Mmmmm.
207
00:12:13,563 --> 00:12:16,955
Translation: Ghosts,
please don't hang out here.
208
00:12:17,015 --> 00:12:18,639
Exactly, yeah.
209
00:12:19,190 --> 00:12:24,713
Why would they think
then that food, milk, beer
210
00:12:25,046 --> 00:12:28,585
would be a process to absolve
someone of their sins?
211
00:12:28,646 --> 00:12:30,612
Yeah. Here we had
this idea of sin
212
00:12:30,673 --> 00:12:32,366
being its own
entity or substance.
213
00:12:32,893 --> 00:12:36,073
The sin of this other person has
been transferred into the food
214
00:12:36,134 --> 00:12:37,611
and then into the
sin-eater themselves.
215
00:12:37,672 --> 00:12:40,106
When a soul is weighed
down by sin, it's burdened.
216
00:12:40,167 --> 00:12:42,027
It has difficulty
in the afterlife,
217
00:12:42,088 --> 00:12:44,105
gets caught between
heaven and earth,
218
00:12:44,272 --> 00:12:45,363
and can come back as a ghost.
219
00:12:45,523 --> 00:12:46,607
Mmmm.
220
00:12:48,208 --> 00:12:52,006
What type of person
would become a sin-eater?
221
00:12:52,425 --> 00:12:53,889
Well, usually desperately poor.
222
00:12:53,949 --> 00:12:56,064
So, essentially what
you have here is people
223
00:12:56,268 --> 00:12:58,087
selling the only thing
they have of value,
224
00:12:58,148 --> 00:12:59,744
which is their own soul.
225
00:13:00,566 --> 00:13:01,898
This person sells his own soul,
226
00:13:01,959 --> 00:13:03,669
but then he stops the
community being affected
227
00:13:03,730 --> 00:13:06,175
and disturbed by this dead
person's soul coming back.
228
00:13:08,746 --> 00:13:12,474
But if sin-eating was an act of
desperation for the destitute,
229
00:13:15,028 --> 00:13:18,211
why did a successful farmer
like Richard Munslow
230
00:13:18,373 --> 00:13:20,824
choose to dine over the dead?
231
00:13:33,574 --> 00:13:37,208
This rugged borderland
between England and Wales
232
00:13:37,268 --> 00:13:39,531
was the scene of many
battles over the centuries,
233
00:13:40,754 --> 00:13:44,467
and it's a place with a rich
tradition of ghost stories.
234
00:13:47,966 --> 00:13:51,255
Sal Masekela and historian,
Dafydd Mills Daniels,
235
00:13:51,809 --> 00:13:55,032
are on the trail of England's
last known sin-eater,
236
00:13:55,872 --> 00:13:57,371
a man whose job
237
00:13:57,749 --> 00:14:03,120
was to rid the dead of sin
and purge the land of ghosts.
238
00:14:05,192 --> 00:14:07,548
Here we are at Richard
Munslow's tombstone.
239
00:14:08,098 --> 00:14:09,144
This is his actual grave site?
240
00:14:09,205 --> 00:14:09,861
Yeah. This is it.
241
00:14:09,922 --> 00:14:10,977
Wow!
242
00:14:11,612 --> 00:14:13,180
So this is the final sin-eater.
243
00:14:14,512 --> 00:14:15,735
And there you see...
244
00:14:16,671 --> 00:14:17,856
his family, his children.
245
00:14:17,917 --> 00:14:18,732
Yeah.
246
00:14:18,891 --> 00:14:20,023
Four children.
247
00:14:20,621 --> 00:14:24,766
Wow, this gives more of a
sense of him as a person.
248
00:14:24,827 --> 00:14:25,753
Yeah, it does.
249
00:14:26,079 --> 00:14:27,552
And you mentioned earlier that
250
00:14:28,015 --> 00:14:29,617
usually it was poor people
251
00:14:29,973 --> 00:14:33,637
that chose to practice this,
almost out of necessity,
252
00:14:34,168 --> 00:14:35,472
not necessarily choice.
253
00:14:35,988 --> 00:14:38,018
Munslow was a farmer,
254
00:14:38,561 --> 00:14:39,862
a family man,
255
00:14:39,923 --> 00:14:41,904
it seemed like he was
fairly successful.
256
00:14:42,304 --> 00:14:44,418
Why would he choose this?
257
00:14:44,818 --> 00:14:46,661
Yeah, it is a curious
choice, isn't it,
258
00:14:46,722 --> 00:14:47,719
particularly for
someone like Munslow.
259
00:14:47,975 --> 00:14:49,622
The basic motivation
he seems to have had
260
00:14:49,683 --> 00:14:51,859
is that his children
died quite suddenly.
261
00:14:54,843 --> 00:14:57,342
Three of Munslow's
young children,
262
00:14:57,430 --> 00:15:00,731
took sick and died in
a single week in 1870.
263
00:15:03,491 --> 00:15:07,273
Dafydd believes Munslow may
have linked his personal tragedy
264
00:15:07,708 --> 00:15:11,949
to the notion that unforgiven
sins were haunting the village.
265
00:15:12,514 --> 00:15:14,783
This fear about
the souls from the dead
266
00:15:14,844 --> 00:15:16,629
coming back to haunt
their own society.
267
00:15:16,739 --> 00:15:18,911
What the sin-eater was
doing was saving society
268
00:15:18,979 --> 00:15:20,794
from negative
consequences of sin.
269
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,251
So while they were viewed
somewhat as a pariah,
270
00:15:24,731 --> 00:15:26,214
within the community,
271
00:15:26,581 --> 00:15:28,772
there's also the
sense of this is a value.
272
00:15:29,059 --> 00:15:30,053
Right. Yes.
273
00:15:30,158 --> 00:15:31,949
Christ, taking on the
sins of the world,
274
00:15:32,010 --> 00:15:33,305
but he has to die for
that atonement to happen.
275
00:15:33,366 --> 00:15:35,360
And so Munslow, he's
agreed to be damned.
276
00:15:35,420 --> 00:15:39,217
Munslow seemed to have viewed it as
this act of self-sacrificial love.
277
00:15:45,154 --> 00:15:46,589
Personal tragedy
278
00:15:47,186 --> 00:15:50,619
led Richard Munslow to
become the last sin-eater.
279
00:15:51,574 --> 00:15:53,612
Bereft by the loss
of his children,
280
00:15:54,432 --> 00:15:56,228
he sacrificed his soul
281
00:15:56,715 --> 00:15:58,674
to save the soul
of his community.
282
00:15:59,453 --> 00:16:02,085
He provided grieving families
with a sense of peace
283
00:16:02,146 --> 00:16:03,957
that he himself
would never know.
284
00:16:05,318 --> 00:16:07,891
For someone already
so heavily burdened,
285
00:16:09,036 --> 00:16:10,975
it was an incredibly noble act.
286
00:16:20,638 --> 00:16:22,250
Christians believe that we must
287
00:16:22,311 --> 00:16:24,391
reckon with our sins
on Judgement Day.
288
00:16:25,735 --> 00:16:28,132
But does that day
come in Heaven,
289
00:16:28,816 --> 00:16:30,614
or down here on Earth?
290
00:16:35,799 --> 00:16:37,664
I'm meeting Jerry Givens...
291
00:16:38,670 --> 00:16:40,414
Man, this is a lovely place.
292
00:16:40,514 --> 00:16:42,060
It is. Beautiful.
293
00:16:45,436 --> 00:16:49,051
A man who has always
been a firm believer in God...
294
00:16:49,494 --> 00:16:51,517
This is God's
creation, these trees,
295
00:16:51,814 --> 00:16:53,231
aw, look at the beauty.
296
00:16:55,915 --> 00:17:00,787
And who spent 17 years as executioner
for the state of Virginia.
297
00:17:05,165 --> 00:17:06,648
I want to understand
298
00:17:07,164 --> 00:17:09,643
how a man can take
another man's life
299
00:17:09,788 --> 00:17:12,109
and not believe he's
committed a sin.
300
00:17:14,346 --> 00:17:17,439
How many different ways of
execution did you take part in?
301
00:17:17,932 --> 00:17:21,550
It was 25 by electrocution,
302
00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,400
and 37 by lethal injection.
303
00:17:25,532 --> 00:17:28,052
-You executed...
-62 people.
304
00:17:28,113 --> 00:17:29,887
-Personally?
-62 people.
305
00:17:31,623 --> 00:17:32,974
How did you feel?
I mean,
306
00:17:33,759 --> 00:17:35,563
what kind of adjustments
did you have to make,
307
00:17:36,049 --> 00:17:37,248
mentally or emotionally?
308
00:17:38,095 --> 00:17:38,858
Well,
309
00:17:39,321 --> 00:17:41,521
before each execution
I would pray.
310
00:17:42,337 --> 00:17:43,868
-You would pray?
-Mm-hm.
311
00:17:43,928 --> 00:17:46,147
I received the
condemned 15 days...
312
00:17:47,328 --> 00:17:48,690
before I kill him.
313
00:17:51,617 --> 00:17:53,372
During that 15 day period,
314
00:17:53,696 --> 00:17:55,300
I'm trying to prepare him
315
00:17:55,919 --> 00:17:58,764
for his next destination.
316
00:17:59,238 --> 00:18:00,550
For electrocution,
317
00:18:00,761 --> 00:18:01,959
you had to shave the head.
318
00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:03,938
So I would put my
hand on his head
319
00:18:04,005 --> 00:18:05,724
and I would pray
silently to him.
320
00:18:05,785 --> 00:18:07,236
And we used to get on our knees.
321
00:18:07,296 --> 00:18:08,800
'Now I lay me down to sleep,
322
00:18:08,974 --> 00:18:10,449
I pray the Lord my soul to keep.
323
00:18:10,697 --> 00:18:12,523
If I should die before I wake,
324
00:18:12,686 --> 00:18:14,650
I pray the Lord
my soul to take.'
325
00:18:15,918 --> 00:18:17,227
Yeah. I know that.
326
00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,031
So these guys are gonna
die before they wake.
327
00:18:24,693 --> 00:18:26,762
Did you think what
you were doing was a sin?
328
00:18:26,892 --> 00:18:28,682
That's when I first started,
329
00:18:29,621 --> 00:18:31,448
nah, not really, because...
330
00:18:32,019 --> 00:18:34,219
what I used to say,
Morgan, I say, well, God,
331
00:18:34,892 --> 00:18:36,993
these people don't
deserve to live
332
00:18:37,057 --> 00:18:38,514
for what they done
to other people.
333
00:18:39,878 --> 00:18:41,171
They should have to suffer,
334
00:18:41,755 --> 00:18:42,790
for what they done.
335
00:18:45,093 --> 00:18:46,180
I'll give you an example
336
00:18:46,472 --> 00:18:49,002
of one of the crimes
that this guy committed.
337
00:18:49,347 --> 00:18:50,854
There was an 86 year old woman.
338
00:18:51,785 --> 00:18:54,254
He nailed her feet
to the wooden floor,
339
00:18:54,315 --> 00:18:56,000
and nailed her
hands to the chair,
340
00:18:56,514 --> 00:18:59,469
and poured gasoline on her
house and set it on fire.
341
00:19:01,482 --> 00:19:02,685
You know? And to me,
342
00:19:03,045 --> 00:19:04,837
does this guy deserve to live
343
00:19:04,898 --> 00:19:07,127
after doing this to
another human being?
344
00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:11,303
And it's in the Bible,
345
00:19:11,807 --> 00:19:12,687
'eye for an eye.'
346
00:19:13,108 --> 00:19:14,514
But it also says,
347
00:19:14,837 --> 00:19:15,813
'Thou shalt not...'
348
00:19:15,897 --> 00:19:16,540
Kill.
349
00:19:18,826 --> 00:19:19,807
How do we...
350
00:19:20,345 --> 00:19:22,753
come to terms with
two opposites there?
351
00:19:22,992 --> 00:19:24,837
Because, Morgan,
352
00:19:25,217 --> 00:19:28,238
inside of each human being
lives a thing called 'death'.
353
00:19:29,591 --> 00:19:30,473
You understand?
354
00:19:30,724 --> 00:19:32,274
It can't sentence you to death,
355
00:19:32,335 --> 00:19:33,858
you're already
sentenced to death!
356
00:19:33,919 --> 00:19:35,162
God said you're gonna die.
357
00:19:36,903 --> 00:19:40,102
But Jerry's conviction
that he was doing God's will
358
00:19:40,163 --> 00:19:41,733
was eventually shaken.
359
00:19:42,529 --> 00:19:44,437
God brought
Earl Washington to me.
360
00:19:44,497 --> 00:19:45,639
Who is Earl Washington?
361
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,281
Earl Washington
was a man on Death Row.
362
00:19:48,407 --> 00:19:50,421
He was innocent, but he
was sentenced to death
363
00:19:50,482 --> 00:19:52,389
for a crime that
he didn't commit.
364
00:19:52,700 --> 00:19:56,700
In 1993, Earl Washington
became the first man ever
365
00:19:56,761 --> 00:20:00,677
exonerated from Virginia's
Death Row, by DNA evidence.
366
00:20:01,755 --> 00:20:03,514
Back in 1985,
367
00:20:04,057 --> 00:20:07,924
Jerry had come within nine days
of carrying out his execution.
368
00:20:09,038 --> 00:20:11,140
But when one man is
found innocent...
369
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:13,891
It cast doubt
on the whole system.
370
00:20:13,952 --> 00:20:15,117
That's right,
on the whole system.
371
00:20:15,431 --> 00:20:17,599
In all of my prayers
I will always ask God
372
00:20:17,660 --> 00:20:20,455
to never allow me to
execute an innocent man,
373
00:20:20,516 --> 00:20:23,269
'cause I didn't want to be in the
position to take an innocent life.
374
00:20:23,442 --> 00:20:26,821
So now you're in serious
doubt about what you do.
375
00:20:26,882 --> 00:20:28,109
-Am I right about that?
-Yeah.
376
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:29,995
It put doubt here.
377
00:20:31,312 --> 00:20:33,134
It put doubt in the executioner.
378
00:20:34,616 --> 00:20:36,367
Despite his growing doubt,
379
00:20:36,937 --> 00:20:40,554
Jerry continued his work as
executioner for several years.
380
00:20:41,864 --> 00:20:43,776
Then, in 1999,
381
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:46,535
Jerry helped a friend buy a car
382
00:20:46,723 --> 00:20:49,065
with what proved
to be drug money.
383
00:20:50,135 --> 00:20:52,137
He was convicted
of money laundering
384
00:20:52,438 --> 00:20:54,266
and lying to a Grand Jury,
385
00:20:54,750 --> 00:20:55,923
and went to prison.
386
00:20:56,948 --> 00:20:59,046
Even though he still
claims innocence,
387
00:21:00,536 --> 00:21:03,580
he sees this moment not
as a fall from grace,
388
00:21:05,030 --> 00:21:07,032
but as his salvation...
389
00:21:07,855 --> 00:21:08,847
from sin.
390
00:21:09,375 --> 00:21:10,507
When this happened,
391
00:21:11,956 --> 00:21:13,825
God told me afterwards say,
392
00:21:13,886 --> 00:21:16,184
'Well, I brought Earl
Washington to you,
393
00:21:16,404 --> 00:21:18,834
I answered your prayer,
but you didn't leave.'
394
00:21:19,084 --> 00:21:21,464
So God said, 'Well,
if you wanna do that,
395
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,508
I'll bring this here
case against you.'
396
00:21:25,308 --> 00:21:27,186
I will make sure
that you will leave.'
397
00:21:28,555 --> 00:21:29,339
I went to prison,
398
00:21:29,864 --> 00:21:31,008
for 57 month,
399
00:21:31,342 --> 00:21:33,721
and that's what helped
me change my mind.
400
00:21:34,986 --> 00:21:36,963
If I offered you the job now?
401
00:21:37,348 --> 00:21:38,432
No, I wouldn't do it.
402
00:21:38,746 --> 00:21:39,425
Why not?
403
00:21:39,775 --> 00:21:43,271
Because I've learned that
innocent people be executed.
404
00:21:44,602 --> 00:21:47,255
The court system is not great, right?
It's not fair.
405
00:21:47,524 --> 00:21:49,059
You will not tell me that,
406
00:21:49,224 --> 00:21:50,423
because it's a sin?
407
00:21:50,830 --> 00:21:53,003
It is a sin.
It is, it's a sin to kill.
408
00:21:54,248 --> 00:21:57,190
After Jerry was
released in 2004,
409
00:21:57,513 --> 00:21:59,939
he became an anti-death
penalty activist.
410
00:22:01,081 --> 00:22:02,784
He has travelled
around the world,
411
00:22:02,974 --> 00:22:05,849
trying to educate people
about alternatives,
412
00:22:06,149 --> 00:22:07,504
to capital punishment.
413
00:22:10,850 --> 00:22:13,514
Why do we have to kill a person
414
00:22:14,541 --> 00:22:16,072
to show that killing is wrong?
415
00:22:18,668 --> 00:22:19,950
If I cut this finger,
416
00:22:20,713 --> 00:22:22,711
do I have to cut this
finger to stop the bleeding?
417
00:22:22,772 --> 00:22:23,567
No.
418
00:22:25,016 --> 00:22:26,771
That's just
compounding the error.
419
00:22:27,784 --> 00:22:28,994
Yeah. You know,
we all have sinned
420
00:22:29,055 --> 00:22:30,258
and come short of
the glory of God,
421
00:22:30,318 --> 00:22:31,763
we all, as humans.
422
00:22:32,468 --> 00:22:34,116
We live in a simple world.
423
00:22:34,550 --> 00:22:37,407
Why do I continue to sin
over and over and over,
424
00:22:37,561 --> 00:22:39,264
if I know it's wrong?
425
00:22:44,196 --> 00:22:45,915
How can we know what's right
426
00:22:46,469 --> 00:22:47,477
and what's wrong?
427
00:22:48,922 --> 00:22:51,313
You can avoid the
seven deadly sins,
428
00:22:52,546 --> 00:22:54,255
you can follow the
Ten Commandments,
429
00:22:54,795 --> 00:22:57,654
but the Bible rules aren't
clear in every situation.
430
00:23:00,209 --> 00:23:02,591
Jerry found himself
caught between,
431
00:23:04,369 --> 00:23:05,706
'an eye for an eye,'
432
00:23:06,696 --> 00:23:08,173
and 'thou shalt not kill',
433
00:23:10,104 --> 00:23:12,628
and stuck in a moral
dilemma over life...
434
00:23:13,341 --> 00:23:14,242
and death.
435
00:23:16,863 --> 00:23:19,711
What he did, maybe that's
what we all need to do,
436
00:23:21,098 --> 00:23:23,280
wrestle with ourselves
and our faith,
437
00:23:24,814 --> 00:23:27,096
to do what we believe is right.
438
00:23:33,933 --> 00:23:37,313
But this struggle doesn't
have to be morose or solitary.
439
00:23:40,284 --> 00:23:43,183
In fact, it can
be a celebration.
440
00:23:53,586 --> 00:23:55,008
I'm in London,
441
00:23:55,412 --> 00:23:58,010
home to nearly half
a million Hindus,
442
00:24:01,857 --> 00:24:03,610
to experience Diwali,
443
00:24:04,030 --> 00:24:05,363
the Hindu New Year.
444
00:24:06,862 --> 00:24:08,995
This five-day festival of light
445
00:24:09,255 --> 00:24:11,630
celebrates the triumph
of good over evil,
446
00:24:12,496 --> 00:24:14,513
and the wiping
away of bad deeds,
447
00:24:15,007 --> 00:24:16,362
from the previous year.
448
00:24:19,979 --> 00:24:23,440
I'm visiting Tarun and Jaymin
Patel and their family...
449
00:24:23,793 --> 00:24:27,279
-Oh, welcome! Namaste.
-Namaste.
450
00:24:27,465 --> 00:24:30,370
To learn more about
this ancient tradition.
451
00:24:36,236 --> 00:24:39,957
Thank you so much for
inviting us into your home.
452
00:24:40,335 --> 00:24:42,390
Tell me about your celebration.
453
00:24:42,450 --> 00:24:44,631
Diwali is an annual festival.
454
00:24:44,692 --> 00:24:47,729
It's the biggest festival of
the year in Hindu calendar.
455
00:24:49,473 --> 00:24:52,400
We do a big family dinner.
456
00:24:52,753 --> 00:24:57,654
It means all our family get together
and we all eat lots of food.
457
00:25:01,572 --> 00:25:04,150
But the greatest thing of
all is that during Diwali,
458
00:25:04,211 --> 00:25:06,612
it's important that
we also remember God,
459
00:25:06,673 --> 00:25:08,334
and we keep him central.
460
00:25:08,541 --> 00:25:10,392
Diwali centres around the story
461
00:25:10,453 --> 00:25:12,856
of a beautiful
princess called Sita,
462
00:25:13,945 --> 00:25:16,456
an avatar of the
Goddess Lakshmi.
463
00:25:17,899 --> 00:25:19,813
She was kidnapped
and imprisoned,
464
00:25:21,555 --> 00:25:24,647
by a many-headed demon
king called Ravana,
465
00:25:26,234 --> 00:25:28,503
backed by an army of demons.
466
00:25:30,221 --> 00:25:32,649
But Sita's husband, Lord Ram,
467
00:25:33,168 --> 00:25:34,890
an avatar of Vishnu,
468
00:25:35,803 --> 00:25:37,606
came to rescue his wife.
469
00:25:39,783 --> 00:25:41,324
Armed with his bow,
470
00:25:41,804 --> 00:25:44,266
he took on Ravana's demon army.
471
00:25:46,986 --> 00:25:49,082
With one final arrow...
472
00:25:54,224 --> 00:25:55,552
he slayed Ravana,
473
00:25:58,172 --> 00:26:00,742
and freed his beloved wife.
474
00:26:02,530 --> 00:26:05,887
Hindu tradition says that
Ram and Sita's subjects
475
00:26:06,053 --> 00:26:09,575
lit oil lamps to guide the
couple back to their kingdom,
476
00:26:12,740 --> 00:26:15,090
representing the triumph of good
477
00:26:15,378 --> 00:26:17,464
over the darkness of evil.
478
00:26:19,972 --> 00:26:21,782
It is festival of light,
479
00:26:21,843 --> 00:26:23,886
but we're welcoming
you, God, come in.
480
00:26:23,947 --> 00:26:26,217
It's like Ram came that time.
481
00:26:26,277 --> 00:26:28,159
We light candles everywhere,
482
00:26:28,325 --> 00:26:31,412
and we believe that
the evil from us,
483
00:26:31,473 --> 00:26:32,963
the darkness from us,
484
00:26:33,024 --> 00:26:35,364
we should remove
and bring the light,
485
00:26:35,424 --> 00:26:37,677
the good things, from everybody.
486
00:26:37,737 --> 00:26:38,694
That's perfect.
487
00:26:38,755 --> 00:26:41,508
Ram was a symbol
of righteousness.
488
00:26:41,569 --> 00:26:43,100
He was the ideal father,
489
00:26:43,284 --> 00:26:46,508
the ideal son, the ideal
brother, the ideal husband.
490
00:26:46,971 --> 00:26:49,352
So those things over Diwali,
491
00:26:49,413 --> 00:26:52,533
as Hindus we will reflect on,
and we will try and be that
492
00:26:52,693 --> 00:26:55,085
on a personal level,
as much as we can,
493
00:26:55,146 --> 00:26:56,440
for as long as we can.
494
00:26:56,644 --> 00:27:00,292
If you reflect back, you will
realize that you committed sin.
495
00:27:00,353 --> 00:27:02,012
That is what Diwali is about.
496
00:27:02,072 --> 00:27:03,021
Gotcha.
497
00:27:06,283 --> 00:27:08,950
It's the opportunity
to forgive and forget.
498
00:27:09,116 --> 00:27:10,344
Do you manage that?
499
00:27:10,529 --> 00:27:11,234
We try.
500
00:27:13,368 --> 00:27:15,575
Forgive, yes;
forget, perhaps not.
501
00:27:17,639 --> 00:27:19,443
Ah yes, I gotcha.
502
00:27:19,691 --> 00:27:22,395
Okay. There is sin and karma.
503
00:27:22,566 --> 00:27:23,617
Are they compatible?
504
00:27:23,678 --> 00:27:25,599
Do they sort of
mean the same thing?
505
00:27:25,660 --> 00:27:27,126
Karma is the...
506
00:27:27,539 --> 00:27:28,831
good things that you do.
507
00:27:29,149 --> 00:27:31,098
You accumulate good karma.
508
00:27:31,239 --> 00:27:33,689
And bad things that
you do in life,
509
00:27:33,750 --> 00:27:35,634
you accumulate bad karma.
510
00:27:35,795 --> 00:27:38,268
So the idea is to
make the good karma
511
00:27:38,537 --> 00:27:39,600
bigger than the bad karma.
512
00:27:39,997 --> 00:27:43,120
You really want to weigh
heavily on the good
513
00:27:43,181 --> 00:27:43,561
Yes.
514
00:27:43,755 --> 00:27:45,105
and try your best to...
515
00:27:45,339 --> 00:27:48,718
Get to moksha, which
is the salvation of the soul.
516
00:27:48,779 --> 00:27:49,226
Right.
517
00:27:49,287 --> 00:27:52,775
And the karma dictates how fast
518
00:27:52,836 --> 00:27:55,648
or slow you go towards moksha.
519
00:27:55,815 --> 00:27:56,888
It's not a sprint,
520
00:27:57,271 --> 00:27:58,309
it's a marathon.
521
00:27:58,438 --> 00:28:00,269
So, we've gotta be patient
522
00:28:00,667 --> 00:28:01,836
and we've gotta persevere.
523
00:28:02,032 --> 00:28:03,852
But with faith as your light,
524
00:28:04,815 --> 00:28:05,721
you will get there.
525
00:28:06,067 --> 00:28:09,217
You just explained a lot of
stuff with that one sentence.
526
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:10,894
Thank you.
527
00:28:11,226 --> 00:28:12,381
You're welcome.
528
00:28:15,663 --> 00:28:17,227
After celebrating at home,
529
00:28:17,617 --> 00:28:20,256
this third and most
important day of Diwali,
530
00:28:20,317 --> 00:28:23,166
culminates with families
going to the temple.
531
00:28:29,677 --> 00:28:31,709
The rituals done in the home
532
00:28:31,952 --> 00:28:33,939
are performed again
as a community,
533
00:28:34,165 --> 00:28:35,959
on a much grander scale.
534
00:28:55,328 --> 00:28:57,166
The last ritual of the evening,
535
00:28:57,513 --> 00:29:00,443
is the ultimate display of
light overcoming darkness,
536
00:29:04,090 --> 00:29:07,029
clearing away the bad
karma of the past year,
537
00:29:07,231 --> 00:29:10,758
and lighting the way toward
the liberation of the soul.
538
00:29:25,137 --> 00:29:29,042
Just like the yearly cleansing
of the monsoon rains in India,
539
00:29:29,829 --> 00:29:32,939
Diwali is a time for Hindus
to clean up their karma,
540
00:29:33,409 --> 00:29:37,137
to renew their efforts to avoid
the temptations of selfishness,
541
00:29:38,538 --> 00:29:40,890
to keep working on moksha,
542
00:29:41,451 --> 00:29:42,958
or liberation.
543
00:29:44,786 --> 00:29:46,961
We all make
mistakes in judgement.
544
00:29:47,626 --> 00:29:48,655
Our conscience,
545
00:29:48,818 --> 00:29:50,317
often guided by faith,
546
00:29:50,694 --> 00:29:52,306
leads us to correct them.
547
00:29:53,181 --> 00:29:56,264
But faith can also
drive us to commit sins,
548
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,442
and believe we have
done nothing wrong.
549
00:30:15,987 --> 00:30:18,083
The Christian idea of sin,
550
00:30:18,382 --> 00:30:20,800
has shaped how
western civilization
551
00:30:20,861 --> 00:30:23,360
grapples with questions
of right and wrong.
552
00:30:30,176 --> 00:30:33,939
But I want to understand sin
from a different perspective.
553
00:30:34,802 --> 00:30:36,595
So I've come to Vietnam,
554
00:30:39,353 --> 00:30:42,542
a country with three overlapping
religious traditions:
555
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:44,279
Confucianism,
556
00:30:44,892 --> 00:30:45,759
Taoism
557
00:30:46,376 --> 00:30:47,417
and Buddhism.
558
00:30:54,683 --> 00:30:56,865
This country was
devastated by war
559
00:30:56,926 --> 00:30:58,566
for much of the 20th Century.
560
00:30:59,585 --> 00:31:02,323
Sin is an inevitable
part of war.
561
00:31:03,896 --> 00:31:05,957
American bombing campaigns
562
00:31:06,018 --> 00:31:08,573
killed tens of
thousands of civilians.
563
00:31:10,216 --> 00:31:12,688
Vietcong executed
tens of thousands
564
00:31:12,749 --> 00:31:14,280
of South Vietnamese villagers,
565
00:31:15,250 --> 00:31:18,901
and were infamous for
torturing captured Americans.
566
00:31:22,815 --> 00:31:24,229
Here, in Hanoi,
567
00:31:24,290 --> 00:31:27,454
the Hoa Lo Prison held
hundreds of American POWs,
568
00:31:28,262 --> 00:31:30,344
they knew it as
the Hanoi Hilton.
569
00:31:36,518 --> 00:31:38,487
I'm meeting Tran Trong Duyet,
570
00:31:38,912 --> 00:31:40,020
the former Director,
571
00:31:40,169 --> 00:31:43,111
to understand how he looks
back on those days now.
572
00:31:43,446 --> 00:31:45,250
Mr. Duyet, so
nice to meet you.
573
00:31:45,457 --> 00:31:46,144
And you.
574
00:31:46,519 --> 00:31:48,885
So, this is the
famous Hanoi Hilton?
575
00:31:49,497 --> 00:31:50,560
You worked here?
576
00:31:56,159 --> 00:31:57,834
I'd like to talk to you
some more about that.
577
00:31:57,895 --> 00:32:00,196
Let's go and sit down and talk.
Okay?
578
00:32:01,582 --> 00:32:04,222
Perhaps the most famous
prisoner at Hoa Lo,
579
00:32:04,623 --> 00:32:06,469
was a young John McCain,
580
00:32:09,587 --> 00:32:12,142
who was taken there in 1967,
581
00:32:12,276 --> 00:32:14,797
after he was shot down
over North Vietnam.
582
00:32:16,031 --> 00:32:19,084
McCain never fully
recovered from the physical
583
00:32:19,237 --> 00:32:22,525
and mental torture he suffered
at the hands of his captors.
584
00:32:31,384 --> 00:32:32,768
Now, that's John McCain,
585
00:32:33,281 --> 00:32:34,815
yeah, and that's you, right?
586
00:32:35,308 --> 00:32:36,042
Yeah.
587
00:32:36,785 --> 00:32:41,130
So, can you share your memories
588
00:32:41,191 --> 00:32:43,199
of John McCain with us?
589
00:32:46,588 --> 00:32:48,337
What I remember the most was,
590
00:32:48,430 --> 00:32:51,367
when we come to meet together
591
00:32:51,714 --> 00:32:53,573
after my working time,
592
00:32:53,853 --> 00:32:55,843
and he'd teach me English,
593
00:32:55,904 --> 00:32:58,437
and we talked together,
just like friends,
594
00:32:58,703 --> 00:33:02,518
and we had a very kind of,
like, friendly relationship.
595
00:33:03,658 --> 00:33:04,345
Interesting.
596
00:33:04,738 --> 00:33:07,059
Well McCain says
that he was tortured.
597
00:33:07,833 --> 00:33:09,375
Does that fit your recollection?
598
00:33:12,510 --> 00:33:16,127
I have to say there
was no torture at all.
599
00:33:16,419 --> 00:33:17,818
John McCain was my friend.
600
00:33:18,405 --> 00:33:20,272
So you're saying that
there was no torture at all.
601
00:33:20,333 --> 00:33:21,297
He was never tortured?
602
00:33:22,188 --> 00:33:25,478
100%, no torture.
603
00:33:25,783 --> 00:33:26,790
We save him.
604
00:33:27,215 --> 00:33:28,680
He nearly die
605
00:33:29,126 --> 00:33:32,262
when he gone into
the lake in Hanoi.
606
00:33:32,328 --> 00:33:36,332
And we actually rescue
him and cure him.
607
00:33:37,052 --> 00:33:37,815
Okay.
608
00:33:38,330 --> 00:33:40,773
Well let me just ask
you in a general sense.
609
00:33:41,885 --> 00:33:45,035
Do you have any feelings
about that scenario,
610
00:33:45,095 --> 00:33:47,358
where people regret
what they did in prison,
611
00:33:47,846 --> 00:33:49,317
or during war?
612
00:33:54,104 --> 00:33:57,358
In the war, of course,
there's no other choice.
613
00:33:57,418 --> 00:33:59,562
It's a duty of each soldier
614
00:34:00,155 --> 00:34:01,631
to do what they were told.
615
00:34:02,239 --> 00:34:03,901
I am really proud,
616
00:34:04,341 --> 00:34:05,771
that I tried my best,
617
00:34:06,356 --> 00:34:08,766
to do the duty to my country.
618
00:34:14,676 --> 00:34:17,224
I'm not sure whether Mr. Duyet
619
00:34:17,285 --> 00:34:20,075
simply doesn't remember
what happened in the war,
620
00:34:20,572 --> 00:34:22,401
whether he's avoiding the truth,
621
00:34:23,021 --> 00:34:25,057
or whether his
apparent lack of guilt
622
00:34:25,118 --> 00:34:28,070
stems from a difference
in cultural perspective.
623
00:34:29,208 --> 00:34:30,349
To gain insight,
624
00:34:30,410 --> 00:34:33,892
I'm going to Hanoi's Confucian
Temple of Literature,
625
00:34:34,755 --> 00:34:37,132
to meet Dr. Duong Ngoc Dung,
626
00:34:37,432 --> 00:34:39,175
a professor of
religious studies.
627
00:34:39,652 --> 00:34:40,919
Dr. Dung, I presume?
628
00:34:40,979 --> 00:34:42,575
Oh, yeah.
Are you Mr. Freeman?
629
00:34:42,635 --> 00:34:43,608
I am Mr. Freeman.
630
00:34:43,669 --> 00:34:44,755
Okay, please. Please.
631
00:34:44,816 --> 00:34:45,596
-Thank you.
-Okay.
632
00:34:47,709 --> 00:34:49,379
Now, I had this conversation
633
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,288
with the Head of
the Hanoi Hilton.
634
00:34:51,349 --> 00:34:52,827
Oh yeah, yeah, I know him.
635
00:34:53,651 --> 00:34:56,003
Were there some
bad things that happened,
636
00:34:56,309 --> 00:34:59,634
and his idea was that if so,
637
00:35:00,243 --> 00:35:01,688
it doesn't really matter.
638
00:35:01,796 --> 00:35:03,217
Because yes,
you're a soldier, yes.
639
00:35:03,277 --> 00:35:03,756
Yeah.
640
00:35:03,932 --> 00:35:05,973
He's say, soldier to soldier,
641
00:35:06,620 --> 00:35:08,083
it's an even deal.
642
00:35:08,236 --> 00:35:08,833
Okay.
643
00:35:08,894 --> 00:35:10,012
Big question is,
644
00:35:10,492 --> 00:35:13,633
do the Vietnamese look at sin
the way we in the west do?
645
00:35:14,426 --> 00:35:17,834
The dominant religion
in Vietnam is Buddhism,
646
00:35:18,144 --> 00:35:21,578
but the dominant moral education
647
00:35:21,639 --> 00:35:24,178
teachings is Confucianism.
648
00:35:24,919 --> 00:35:26,636
According to
Confucian philosophy,
649
00:35:26,799 --> 00:35:30,360
we sin because we are
not well educated.
650
00:35:30,768 --> 00:35:34,317
There are five cardinal
laws of morality.
651
00:35:34,987 --> 00:35:36,738
Number one thing is benevolence,
652
00:35:37,087 --> 00:35:38,630
and then righteousness,
653
00:35:39,157 --> 00:35:42,081
trust, wisdom and
then social rituals.
654
00:35:42,661 --> 00:35:44,396
These five cardinal rules,
655
00:35:45,650 --> 00:35:47,286
if I break one
'em, I haven't done
656
00:35:47,347 --> 00:35:49,113
anything as far as
God is concerned,
657
00:35:49,295 --> 00:35:52,526
I've actually sinned
against society?
658
00:35:52,592 --> 00:35:54,352
-Yeah. Against society, yes.
-Yeah.
659
00:35:54,671 --> 00:35:57,427
You destroy
your social relationship.
660
00:35:57,779 --> 00:36:00,194
Confucian ethics
is very practical.
661
00:36:00,368 --> 00:36:03,001
It is not metaphysical,
it is not philosophical.
662
00:36:03,246 --> 00:36:06,211
It just asks us to do something
663
00:36:07,130 --> 00:36:11,037
that we want people to
do the same thing to us.
664
00:36:11,517 --> 00:36:12,284
Golden Rule:
665
00:36:12,345 --> 00:36:14,585
Do unto others as you would
have them do unto you.
666
00:36:14,646 --> 00:36:15,256
Exactly.
667
00:36:15,513 --> 00:36:18,732
So a good, concise explanation
668
00:36:18,872 --> 00:36:22,394
of Confucian philosophy
would be what?
669
00:36:23,655 --> 00:36:25,563
Something like, we should be...
670
00:36:26,004 --> 00:36:29,202
personally responsible
for social harmony.
671
00:36:29,604 --> 00:36:31,268
Brings up the question, however,
672
00:36:31,398 --> 00:36:34,234
of a whole society
going off the rails,
673
00:36:34,407 --> 00:36:35,900
like Nazi Germany.
674
00:36:36,301 --> 00:36:38,137
The holocaust
happened because...
675
00:36:38,238 --> 00:36:39,766
the community
allowed it to happen.
676
00:36:40,066 --> 00:36:40,930
Yes, of course.
677
00:36:41,271 --> 00:36:42,588
One of the weaknesses
678
00:36:42,975 --> 00:36:44,447
of Confucian philosophy is that
679
00:36:44,649 --> 00:36:46,353
it has put a lot of power
680
00:36:46,467 --> 00:36:47,754
on the role of the King.
681
00:36:48,652 --> 00:36:50,226
So if the King is a good guy,
682
00:36:50,816 --> 00:36:52,004
people can benefit.
683
00:36:52,215 --> 00:36:53,785
But if the King is a bad guy,
684
00:36:53,846 --> 00:36:55,465
oh my God, everything,
you know...
685
00:36:55,699 --> 00:36:57,124
Everything goes to pieces.
686
00:36:57,184 --> 00:36:59,030
Yes, yes, exactly like that.
687
00:36:59,287 --> 00:37:03,313
Confucian ethics act like
glue holding society together.
688
00:37:04,570 --> 00:37:06,331
But under despotic leaders,
689
00:37:06,392 --> 00:37:08,638
or the immense pressure of war,
690
00:37:09,138 --> 00:37:10,476
the Confucian mandate
691
00:37:10,537 --> 00:37:13,224
to be a good member of
society can blind people
692
00:37:14,007 --> 00:37:16,303
to the fundamental
morality of their actions,
693
00:37:17,179 --> 00:37:18,678
even in retrospect.
694
00:37:21,019 --> 00:37:23,289
So now let's go back to the idea
695
00:37:23,649 --> 00:37:26,279
of Mr. Duyet at the prison.
696
00:37:26,951 --> 00:37:30,656
Because, his thinking is that
697
00:37:30,717 --> 00:37:33,242
if you're in uniform
you're bound to do it,
698
00:37:33,303 --> 00:37:35,062
it doesn't matter what it is.
699
00:37:35,774 --> 00:37:38,708
Personally, I think
he's totally wrong.
700
00:37:39,018 --> 00:37:41,168
I can refuse because
I'm human being.
701
00:37:41,228 --> 00:37:42,870
-You can think.
-Okay.
702
00:37:42,931 --> 00:37:44,348
Right, Confucius,
703
00:37:44,409 --> 00:37:48,380
he lives in the perfectibility
of human nature.
704
00:37:48,918 --> 00:37:50,855
You should think before
you do something, right?
705
00:37:54,762 --> 00:37:56,662
Nothing in life
is more liberating
706
00:37:57,217 --> 00:38:00,587
than to fight for a cause
that is larger than yourself.
707
00:38:01,805 --> 00:38:04,899
Now that might be a bit
of Confucian wisdom,
708
00:38:05,337 --> 00:38:06,237
but in fact,
709
00:38:06,710 --> 00:38:09,056
those are the words of
Senator John McCain.
710
00:38:10,141 --> 00:38:12,662
The Confucian
tradition of Vietnam,
711
00:38:13,346 --> 00:38:17,223
drives its people to do what
society asks them to do;
712
00:38:18,618 --> 00:38:20,684
but that doesn't mean
that its adherents
713
00:38:20,745 --> 00:38:24,197
must blindly follow a leader
down a path towards sin.
714
00:38:25,699 --> 00:38:29,285
Confucius would expect
us to be well-mannered,
715
00:38:29,779 --> 00:38:30,687
to be trustful,
716
00:38:31,475 --> 00:38:32,646
to have a good head
717
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:34,060
and a good heart.
718
00:38:37,939 --> 00:38:40,258
But when society
goes off the rails,
719
00:38:42,608 --> 00:38:45,696
and people commit the
most heinous of sins,
720
00:38:47,358 --> 00:38:49,353
can there ever be forgiveness?
721
00:38:59,306 --> 00:39:02,059
The town of Terezin,
in the Czech Republic, is a
722
00:39:02,436 --> 00:39:06,177
memorial to one of the most
horrific sins in human history,
723
00:39:09,557 --> 00:39:10,675
The Holocaust.
724
00:39:13,837 --> 00:39:16,917
The Nazis turned the town
into a Jewish prison ghetto.
725
00:39:17,807 --> 00:39:18,526
From here,
726
00:39:18,778 --> 00:39:22,907
they sent nearly 140,000
Jews to extermination camps.
727
00:39:26,609 --> 00:39:28,153
Christianity teaches that
728
00:39:28,634 --> 00:39:30,498
all things can be forgiven.
729
00:39:31,924 --> 00:39:33,650
But how do you forgive a sin,
730
00:39:33,871 --> 00:39:35,477
as monstrous as this?
731
00:39:41,313 --> 00:39:44,409
Rainer Hoess is a
German activist,
732
00:39:45,399 --> 00:39:47,542
who has devoted his
life to reckoning
733
00:39:47,603 --> 00:39:49,296
with the crimes
of the Holocaust.
734
00:39:51,081 --> 00:39:53,764
He has come to meet
Dr. Tomas Kraus,
735
00:39:54,140 --> 00:39:55,804
a Jewish community leader,
736
00:39:56,211 --> 00:39:59,366
to understand the sins that
were committed at Terezin.
737
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:01,933
Hello.
Nice to meet you.
738
00:40:02,065 --> 00:40:03,219
Nice to meet you, the same.
739
00:40:03,646 --> 00:40:07,173
So, let me know a little bit
more about your history...
740
00:40:07,943 --> 00:40:08,618
here.
741
00:40:09,196 --> 00:40:10,556
Here, we are in Terezin,
742
00:40:10,681 --> 00:40:13,183
and behind us is the ghetto.
743
00:40:14,208 --> 00:40:17,185
The trains were going
right into the ghetto,
744
00:40:17,465 --> 00:40:19,640
and the gates closed
after the trains.
745
00:40:21,985 --> 00:40:22,658
And then,
746
00:40:22,985 --> 00:40:25,346
actually, they took the
people out of the ghetto
747
00:40:25,407 --> 00:40:27,177
and they were sending
them to Auschwitz.
748
00:40:29,119 --> 00:40:31,553
So it starts here in
Terezin, and it ends up
749
00:40:32,087 --> 00:40:34,554
in the... in the
way of Auschwitz.
750
00:40:35,278 --> 00:40:37,556
My father was sent
here to Terezin
751
00:40:37,617 --> 00:40:39,052
with the very first transport.
752
00:40:39,725 --> 00:40:41,771
It was November 1941.
753
00:40:42,892 --> 00:40:45,728
The family of my mother
was also affected.
754
00:40:48,968 --> 00:40:51,655
She was from a family
with seven children,
755
00:40:51,716 --> 00:40:53,647
and she was the only
one who survived.
756
00:40:54,698 --> 00:40:56,344
So we are very...
757
00:40:56,647 --> 00:40:58,950
emotionally attached
to this place.
758
00:40:59,297 --> 00:41:00,951
Wow!
Oh my goodness.
759
00:41:04,649 --> 00:41:06,469
This is the main entrance.
760
00:41:06,530 --> 00:41:08,196
And as you can see,
it's black and white.
761
00:41:08,573 --> 00:41:09,588
Very symbolic.
762
00:41:09,991 --> 00:41:11,941
Some people say that
it's swallowing people.
763
00:41:14,639 --> 00:41:16,777
The prison was meant
to be a holding place
764
00:41:16,838 --> 00:41:18,778
for Jewish and
political prisoners,
765
00:41:20,275 --> 00:41:21,918
but inmates were tortured,
766
00:41:22,242 --> 00:41:24,065
hanged, or shot.
767
00:41:29,752 --> 00:41:31,189
And over there now,
768
00:41:32,061 --> 00:41:33,540
this is the Tunnel of Death,
769
00:41:34,184 --> 00:41:36,661
and nobody who was behind it,
770
00:41:36,965 --> 00:41:38,757
would come out alive.
771
00:41:54,481 --> 00:41:56,346
This is the Jewish cell here,
772
00:41:56,875 --> 00:41:57,971
which is for us,
773
00:41:58,536 --> 00:42:00,508
a very important site, because,
774
00:42:01,361 --> 00:42:04,141
it was used for Jews
from the ghetto,
775
00:42:05,077 --> 00:42:06,124
as a punishment.
776
00:42:06,456 --> 00:42:07,903
And in the cell,
777
00:42:07,964 --> 00:42:10,090
which was built only
for a dozen of people,
778
00:42:10,151 --> 00:42:13,465
at one time it had,
like, 90 people.
779
00:42:13,901 --> 00:42:14,992
And none of them survived?
780
00:42:15,053 --> 00:42:16,064
None of them survived.
781
00:42:18,228 --> 00:42:19,576
It's sad.
782
00:42:19,637 --> 00:42:22,379
It's a strange feeling to be here.
Everything...
783
00:42:23,219 --> 00:42:25,594
shows me exactly what
I saw in Auschwitz,
784
00:42:25,655 --> 00:42:26,884
what I saw in Buchenwald,
785
00:42:27,005 --> 00:42:28,625
in Majdanek, in Treblinka,
786
00:42:28,825 --> 00:42:31,897
in all these different,
disgusting camps.
787
00:42:32,795 --> 00:42:34,921
My grandfather
organized the genocide.
788
00:42:35,807 --> 00:42:36,992
He was a master in it.
789
00:42:40,499 --> 00:42:42,883
Rainer's grandfather
was Rudolf Hoess,
790
00:42:45,658 --> 00:42:48,889
the commandant of the
Auschwitz Extermination Camp,
791
00:42:49,558 --> 00:42:53,022
and one of the chief architects
of Hitler's final solution.
792
00:42:55,403 --> 00:42:56,704
At his trial,
793
00:42:57,334 --> 00:42:59,651
Hoess admitted his
role in the Holocaust
794
00:43:00,369 --> 00:43:01,907
and was sentenced to death.
795
00:43:03,615 --> 00:43:06,411
Before his execution in 1947,
796
00:43:06,971 --> 00:43:08,499
Hoess gave confession
797
00:43:08,745 --> 00:43:10,135
and was absolved
798
00:43:10,495 --> 00:43:11,939
by a Catholic priest.
799
00:43:13,732 --> 00:43:15,023
But Hoess's sins
800
00:43:15,570 --> 00:43:16,800
were not eradicated.
801
00:43:19,117 --> 00:43:22,291
They have scarred the lives
of countless Jewish families,
802
00:43:22,689 --> 00:43:25,020
generation upon generation.
803
00:43:26,170 --> 00:43:27,560
They've also left their mark
804
00:43:28,174 --> 00:43:29,417
on Rainer Hoess.
805
00:43:31,893 --> 00:43:32,925
What is your feeling?
806
00:43:33,581 --> 00:43:36,220
Do you feel any responsibility?
807
00:43:36,723 --> 00:43:38,485
Well I'm not guilty,
I wasn't even born
808
00:43:38,546 --> 00:43:39,991
when things like that happened.
809
00:43:41,694 --> 00:43:43,668
But responsibility, of course.
810
00:43:44,798 --> 00:43:46,725
My family is not
dealing with it.
811
00:43:47,525 --> 00:43:48,541
So they're big deniers,
812
00:43:48,706 --> 00:43:50,924
they glorify more
my grandfather.
813
00:43:51,738 --> 00:43:53,052
It never happens.
814
00:43:53,750 --> 00:43:55,431
I'm the black
sheep in my family.
815
00:43:55,981 --> 00:43:58,476
But I'm proud to
be the black sheep.
816
00:43:59,703 --> 00:44:01,806
I'm wearing a cruelty name.
817
00:44:03,074 --> 00:44:06,296
I think it's important
to use the name
818
00:44:06,357 --> 00:44:07,817
to change things in life.
819
00:44:08,873 --> 00:44:10,366
So this is our joint mission;
820
00:44:10,427 --> 00:44:12,403
because I feel also
my responsibility.
821
00:44:12,464 --> 00:44:15,827
I have to give the
witness of my parents
822
00:44:16,134 --> 00:44:16,947
to further generations.
823
00:44:17,311 --> 00:44:19,804
Your grandfather was
the one in Auschwitz...
824
00:44:19,865 --> 00:44:20,984
The Master of Hell.
825
00:44:21,489 --> 00:44:24,872
And my father was
the prisoner there.
826
00:44:25,836 --> 00:44:29,279
So it's very important that
we not only are admitting,
827
00:44:29,340 --> 00:44:31,812
it's very important that we
are sending out the message...
828
00:44:32,273 --> 00:44:33,135
to the world.
829
00:44:33,985 --> 00:44:36,236
My father, and my
mother, by miracle,
830
00:44:37,217 --> 00:44:39,487
they survived and they
came back from the camps.
831
00:44:39,847 --> 00:44:43,735
Their main slogan was,
'Never again. Never again.'
832
00:44:43,850 --> 00:44:45,985
It was a mantra for them.
'Never again'.
833
00:44:46,756 --> 00:44:49,076
It's on us, the second,
third generations
834
00:44:49,137 --> 00:44:50,682
continue to take the torch.
835
00:44:54,151 --> 00:44:56,529
It's interesting,
your pin, Zachor.
836
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:57,846
Remember.
837
00:44:57,907 --> 00:44:58,807
Why you have it?
838
00:44:58,868 --> 00:45:01,018
It is together
with the survivors.
839
00:45:01,599 --> 00:45:04,635
We deliver it to pupils
and people in the world,
840
00:45:04,852 --> 00:45:06,219
1.6 million times.
841
00:45:06,707 --> 00:45:10,630
And, our idea was that,
if you use that pin,
842
00:45:11,017 --> 00:45:13,383
maybe in the
jewellery box at home,
843
00:45:13,808 --> 00:45:17,555
sometimes one of the grand kids
or kids ask about it.
844
00:45:18,048 --> 00:45:20,519
So it gets delivered
over centuries,
845
00:45:20,859 --> 00:45:21,825
over generations.
846
00:45:22,478 --> 00:45:23,693
It's a wonderful idea,
847
00:45:23,915 --> 00:45:26,186
because this is how you fight.
848
00:45:29,932 --> 00:45:31,129
If we do nothing,
849
00:45:31,512 --> 00:45:32,052
we learned nothing.
850
00:45:32,705 --> 00:45:33,321
Exactly.
851
00:45:33,382 --> 00:45:35,369
I think that's the
message I deliver.
852
00:45:36,241 --> 00:45:38,444
And we have to raise
our warning finger,
853
00:45:39,671 --> 00:45:41,753
because it's a
never ending story.
854
00:45:44,804 --> 00:45:47,032
The teachings of
Christianity ask us
855
00:45:47,093 --> 00:45:50,129
to hold two seemingly
contradictory ideas
856
00:45:50,190 --> 00:45:51,225
at the same time:
857
00:45:52,192 --> 00:45:54,065
that sin must be forgiven,
858
00:45:54,703 --> 00:45:57,890
but that we inherit
original sin.
859
00:45:59,024 --> 00:46:01,249
Well it may not be
so contradictory,
860
00:46:02,150 --> 00:46:03,786
'cause it points
to a subtle truth,
861
00:46:04,782 --> 00:46:07,254
that all sin can
ultimately be forgiven,
862
00:46:08,157 --> 00:46:09,751
but it takes honesty,
863
00:46:10,124 --> 00:46:11,071
courage,
864
00:46:11,552 --> 00:46:14,392
and sometimes many
lifetimes of work.
865
00:46:23,784 --> 00:46:26,465
Religions differ in
how they define sin,
866
00:46:28,382 --> 00:46:31,640
but all faiths strive
to steer us away
867
00:46:31,701 --> 00:46:32,941
from our baser instincts,
868
00:46:34,002 --> 00:46:35,518
our selfishness.
869
00:46:38,281 --> 00:46:40,538
They make us wrestle
with right and wrong.
870
00:46:42,078 --> 00:46:43,234
They keep us honest
871
00:46:43,295 --> 00:46:44,692
about our own failings,
872
00:46:45,742 --> 00:46:47,876
and help us to
ask for,
873
00:46:48,402 --> 00:46:50,477
and offer, forgiveness.
874
00:46:51,308 --> 00:46:52,690
A poet once wrote,
875
00:46:53,447 --> 00:46:54,753
'To err is human,
876
00:46:56,073 --> 00:46:57,068
to forgive,
877
00:46:57,792 --> 00:46:58,733
divine.'
878
00:47:01,419 --> 00:47:02,476
Forgiveness,
879
00:47:03,959 --> 00:47:05,546
I think this may be the best
880
00:47:05,689 --> 00:47:06,719
of human qualities.
64128
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