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www.titlovi.com
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Sometimes when I'm up here,
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I feel I'm high in the balcony
of the theater,
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looking down on a stage
where a great drama has been played.
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Oklahomans have always been builders.
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It is one of our finest qualities.
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And there is one other quality
we Oklahomans have always shared.
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We are...
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the dreamers.
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Everything around us,
all is the result of someone's dream.
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There can be no builders
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if there are not also dreamers.
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We are the wanderers,
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the gamblers, the builders,
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the dreamers and the preservers.
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We are the cast
of a human drama called, Oklahoma.
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Yes, I see that.
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I've never looked at it
quite that way before.
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That's the way I've always felt about it.
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Let your healing virtue fill this room...
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and heal every person in it.
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I borrowed my mom's car
to go get a pack of cigarettes.
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And when I returned mom told me
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that the police had been there
looking for me,
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and I said, "What for?"
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"They said, well, something about...
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that woman that come up missing
from that store out there."
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She goes, "They wanted to talk
to you for something about this."
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So I said, "Can you take me down there?"
So my mom was gonna take me down there.
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We went to the car and started to back up
out of the driveway,
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and a police car
pulled in the driveway behind us.
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They said, "Are you Tommy Ward,"
and I said, "Yeah."
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They said, "Well, we had call-inssaying
that you had lived in Ada all your life,
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and that you might know who it was
that took this woman from the store."
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And I said, "Well, no.
I've seen them composite drawings on TV."
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I said,
"They don't look like nobody I know."
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And he goes, "We've got some better
pictures down here at the police station.
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We'd like for you to come down here
to look atto see if you might know 'em.
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'Cause..." and he goes,
"Would you help us out?
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If you do recognize someone
you would tell us who it is."
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And I said, "Yeah, sure."
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They took me downstairs to this basement
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and they start asking me questions
about my whereabouts.
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And then at that point,
I mean, they just come at me
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and started saying, "You did it,
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you know you did it,
this is how you did it.
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They kept on.
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And at first, I kept telling them,
"No, I didn't."
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And they wouldn't take
a "No, I didn't do it" for an answer.
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They kept lying to me,
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and lying to me.
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And in fact, after a while,
it just got me to lie.
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They'd just sit there
and kept telling me that...
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more like, "Use your imagination.
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What about your dream?"
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- Did you kill this girl?
- No, I didn't.
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I wouldn't kill nobody.
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I wouldn't take nobody's life
away from them.
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- Who killed this girl?
- I don't know.
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I have no idea.
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I keep on telling them
over and over again that I didn't do it.
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He goes, "Well, if you didn't do it,
Why would you flunk the test so bad?"
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I said, "I don't know." I said,
"Look my nerves, I'm a nervous person.
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I've got bad nerves,
or something, you know?
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And I also, it could've been...
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the dream that I had after y'all
come talk to me the first time
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I had a dream."
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And they were, "What about your dream?"
That's when I told them my dream story.
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I was sitting in his vehicle...
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and I remember...
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like seeing, like through a glass
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where I seen,
like hands handing money to hands.
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And then I had a flash in my dream.
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I seen this guy kissing on this girl
and she said, "Leave me alone."
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I said, "Leave her alone." He said,
"If you don't like it, you can go home."
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And then I had to flash in my dream,
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and I was standing at the sink
trying to get something black off my arm.
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He said,
"Your dreams don't make no sense."
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And I said, "Well, what dream makes sense?
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Y'all just sitting there,
asking me what my dream was about."
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And then, he told me
that we had to get rid of her...
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and asked me a good place
to get rid of her.
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I told him about a house
and about this ditch down by the...
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Sandy River.
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I thought they'd go out
and say that there was flies
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because it was just a made-up story.
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Did Denise Haraway,
she begged y'all not to hurt her,
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or what did she say
when all this was happening?
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She was asking us just to let her go.
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Well, I went in
at ten o'clock that morning
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and I think it was after six o'clock,
it was late in the evening,
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when they turned the video tape on and...
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I gave the bogus confession.
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College Heights, Missionary Baptist.
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Turn that on,
so we can see where we're going.
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Well, I got a BB gun
when I was about to seven years old,
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and I was taught at that time...
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you kill nothing...
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except to eat...
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or to protect yourself.
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Five in the clip, nothing in the chamber.
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I've had 'em say, "Why?
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Why nothing in the chamber?" It's...
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personal conviction.
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If it came right down to it,
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I don't think I would have a problem
with shooting somebody,
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but it's only in self-defense.
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Capital punishment...
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if there is no doubt whatsoever...
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I'm still against it.
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Of course, being a preacher,
I go with the biblical...
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rendition of that.
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God's the only one that should take life.
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It's not up to us to play God and say,
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"Well, you did this,
so you need to die for it."
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And you go back into the law
and it does say that,
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"And eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth."
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But as far as being able
to say when somebody should die...
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and how they should die...
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that's up to God.
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Okay, just stop right here,
we're gonna say prayer.
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We're gonna say prayer, Mama.
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- Huh?
- We're gonna say prayer right here, okay?
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Say a prayer?
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- Yeah.
- So we can eat.
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So we can eat.
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Lord, we thank you for this day
and the blessings you've given.
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We thank you, Lord, for these
that have traveled this far.
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We ask, Lord, that things be done
for your honor and Glory.
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We ask Lord that you bless this food
to the nourishment of our bodies.
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These are bodies in your service.
Forgive us where we've failed you.
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- For as Christ's name, amen.
- Amen.
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I had heard about the confessions,
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and it was by his own mouth,
when he called me.
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He was telling me
about them keeping him in there,
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and then how they would go over...
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Like he would say something,
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and it was almost like they was trying
to read to him what they want him to say.
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And he said, "I told 'em a dream,"
that's what he said.
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"I told 'em a dream.
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I had a dream
and I told 'em it was a dream.
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And they took that dream as a confession."
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What's going on, you know?
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How could this be possible?
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Here's the one of Tommy.
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I told you I thought
it was the same one as this one.
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- Is it?
- Yeah, it is.
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This is a picture of Tommy.
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I'm not sure if there's a date on the back
of it but it looked like he's more...
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six, seven.
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These are... Look there.
You know who that is.
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There's no way he would have ever done
anything like that.
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And I know that because we know his heart.
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And we know the type of person he is
and there's just no way.
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Denise...
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never showed up, never called home.
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But there was no evidence
of where she was.
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One interesting thing that happened,
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that they found out by talking to people,
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was that, all over town, people said
they were dreaming about the case.
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Dennis Smith was
the Chief Detective on the case.
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So I went to see him...
and I started talking about the case.
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And he says,
"Let me show you something else, first,
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because I'm not worried about that case.
Those guys are in jail already."
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He says,
"It's a case that burns at my stomach.
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We had another murder here
about a year-and-a-half ago,
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a girl named Debbie Carter.
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And we still haven't got that person,"
he says.
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And I knew Debbie Carter.
We lived on the same street.
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And I knew her,
every time I look at those pictures,
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it just tears me apart.
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"And that's the one
I would want to solve."
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And he hesitates and he says,
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"Well, actually, it is solved.
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We know who did it."
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And I said, "Well, what's the problem
if you know who did it?"
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And he said...
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"We can't do anything about it."
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I had went down there one day after work,
to the police department.
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I go in and ask him and talk to him.
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"Well, we just don't know anything.
We hadn't come up with anything."
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And I'd leave there so upset
because I think...
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they've gotta do something,
they've gotta know something.
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In small towns like Ada,
the prosecutors and the police...
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are under enormous pressure
to solve a crime.
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00:12:42,303 --> 00:12:45,515
In a neighborhood where there are
several crimes, could it be the same guy?
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It's total fear, total terror,
you know, it's, "Find the guy."
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00:12:52,146 --> 00:12:54,524
Well, it's gotta be two men
who did this, okay?
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Because it's so violent.
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00:13:04,659 --> 00:13:07,036
I've been down and read this case file,
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every interview,
everything that's in that file.
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00:13:10,415 --> 00:13:13,876
And what there is a mention of,
quite often, is Ron Williamson.
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Where you live...
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I know it. That's what gets me, man.
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00:13:20,425 --> 00:13:23,303
- You are a very good suspect.
- I know it.
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00:13:24,387 --> 00:13:25,513
I'm just telling you.
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Dennis Smith and some local police thought
that Ron might have been a good suspect
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because of his personal history.
199
00:13:35,565 --> 00:13:39,485
In 1978, Ron had a case in Tulsa, Oklahoma
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where he had picked up this gal
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00:13:41,571 --> 00:13:45,116
and apparently had forced himself on her
and had raped her.
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He had also been arrested
in Oklahoma City.
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00:13:49,662 --> 00:13:50,913
But in both cases,
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he was found not guilty in trial.
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00:13:54,167 --> 00:13:57,045
He was a regular at the Coachlight and...
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00:13:57,378 --> 00:14:01,466
there was a report that had Ron
Williamson in the Coachlight that night.
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00:14:02,342 --> 00:14:05,928
He was drinking a lot,
partying a lot, raising hell,
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00:14:06,012 --> 00:14:07,388
no real job.
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00:14:07,889 --> 00:14:10,308
Lived very near the crime scene.
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00:14:18,566 --> 00:14:21,402
They are very concerned
that you are the one that did it.
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00:14:23,154 --> 00:14:26,574
Don't you think they've got better things
to do than keep coming back on you?
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00:14:26,657 --> 00:14:28,284
No, that's it.
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00:14:30,286 --> 00:14:33,498
I'll tell you what, if that's
your opinion, you're sadly mistaken.
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00:14:34,207 --> 00:14:35,708
I've read the reports.
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00:14:36,751 --> 00:14:40,588
They seriously think that you're capable
of committing this type of crime, Ron.
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They're hoping that you didn't.
217
00:14:44,884 --> 00:14:46,135
You know what I'm saying?
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00:14:46,928 --> 00:14:50,640
And if the allegations were to get
right again, the same guy's liable to...
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00:14:51,641 --> 00:14:52,641
do it again.
220
00:14:53,101 --> 00:14:55,311
You know,
this scene doesn't look like the scene
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00:14:55,395 --> 00:14:59,899
of a guy that goes around, you know,
pulling just your basic rapes.
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00:15:03,027 --> 00:15:06,030
Ron was very suspicious,
had a bad reputation.
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00:15:06,114 --> 00:15:08,994
And at that time in his life, the only
person Ron was hanging around with
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was Dennis Fritz.
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00:15:30,513 --> 00:15:34,308
And this is their biggest concern
with you, with Ron,
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00:15:34,392 --> 00:15:37,311
because with the history
of both of you...
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00:15:37,937 --> 00:15:41,357
they feel like
it's a very strong possibility.
228
00:15:42,024 --> 00:15:43,276
Something went wrong.
229
00:15:43,359 --> 00:15:47,071
Either rejection, resistance, whatever...
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and somebody got killed.
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I had got home from work at eight o'clock.
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00:16:05,256 --> 00:16:07,383
Phone rung and it was Dennis Smith.
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00:16:07,467 --> 00:16:10,511
He wanted me to come down
and sign some papers.
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00:16:10,595 --> 00:16:13,806
And I said, "Sign some papers?
What's going on?"
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00:16:14,724 --> 00:16:16,225
He said, "Come down and me
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00:16:16,309 --> 00:16:18,394
and Bill Peterson will talk to you
about it."
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00:16:20,354 --> 00:16:21,939
So I went down there.
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00:16:22,899 --> 00:16:25,902
They handed me this paper. "Sign it."
239
00:16:25,985 --> 00:16:28,154
I said, "What's going on?"
240
00:16:28,237 --> 00:16:29,739
They wanted to exhume her.
241
00:16:30,114 --> 00:16:32,033
I said, "No.
242
00:16:32,116 --> 00:16:33,993
No, we're not gonna do that."
243
00:16:34,076 --> 00:16:36,162
And he said, "Her daddy signed it."
244
00:16:36,245 --> 00:16:39,040
I say, "I don't care what he did.
I'm not signing it.
245
00:16:39,415 --> 00:16:41,209
You're not going out there
and getting her."
246
00:16:41,292 --> 00:16:44,587
They said, "Well, Peggy,
do you want this solved?"
247
00:16:44,670 --> 00:16:46,547
And I said, "More than anybody."
248
00:16:46,631 --> 00:16:48,049
And he said, "Well...
249
00:16:48,966 --> 00:16:50,843
We have found a handprint."
250
00:16:55,473 --> 00:16:58,100
There was a palm print
on the side of the wall.
251
00:16:58,226 --> 00:16:59,852
I believe it was below a window.
252
00:17:00,937 --> 00:17:04,315
We're somebody had actually put
their bloody palm against the wall
253
00:17:04,774 --> 00:17:06,609
and had a smear there.
254
00:17:07,818 --> 00:17:11,489
The original report says
that the handprint is not Debbie's.
255
00:17:11,572 --> 00:17:15,535
And they'd said that it wasn't Ron's
and it wasn't Dennis's.
256
00:17:15,618 --> 00:17:17,703
They couldn't go to court
with this hand print.
257
00:17:18,621 --> 00:17:22,667
Because, if they had a palm print
from a person that was not Debbie Carter's
258
00:17:22,750 --> 00:17:26,254
and if it was not Dennis Fritz
and if it was not Ron Williamson's,
259
00:17:26,337 --> 00:17:28,548
then the prosecution
probably had a problem.
260
00:17:29,257 --> 00:17:31,676
Somebody else was there
with a bloody palm print.
261
00:17:33,261 --> 00:17:36,347
So they exhumed the body and develop...
262
00:17:37,265 --> 00:17:40,977
additional prints
and palm print off of Debbie's body.
263
00:17:41,519 --> 00:17:44,063
And later determined,
at that point in time,
264
00:17:44,146 --> 00:17:46,941
it was Debbie Carter's palm print.
265
00:17:50,611 --> 00:17:53,990
That was the hardest thing for me to do,
was to sign that paper.
266
00:17:55,074 --> 00:17:57,910
And I told him I said,
"Oh, wait a minute.
267
00:17:58,995 --> 00:18:00,288
Tell you what I'll do.
268
00:18:01,122 --> 00:18:03,332
I'll sign that on one condition."
269
00:18:03,416 --> 00:18:04,959
Bill said, "What's that?"
270
00:18:05,042 --> 00:18:09,046
I said, "I get to go with you
when you go out there and get her."
271
00:18:09,130 --> 00:18:11,132
I thought, "I get one more kiss,
272
00:18:11,215 --> 00:18:14,093
one more hug, one more kiss."
273
00:18:20,474 --> 00:18:22,393
I was at work one morning,
274
00:18:22,476 --> 00:18:26,147
and this guy that lived out
on the other side of Rosedale Cemetery,
275
00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,524
he come to work at eight o'clock.
276
00:18:28,608 --> 00:18:30,985
He come up me and he said,
"What are they doing?
277
00:18:31,068 --> 00:18:34,363
They're out there, it looks like
they're digging up Debbie's grave."
278
00:18:34,447 --> 00:18:35,447
"Are they?"
279
00:18:36,032 --> 00:18:38,826
I run and got my keys and my car.
280
00:18:38,909 --> 00:18:40,369
I clocked out.
281
00:18:40,453 --> 00:18:43,331
So she leaves work.
She knows exactly what's going on.
282
00:18:43,414 --> 00:18:45,041
She hauls across town.
283
00:18:45,916 --> 00:18:47,918
Gets there, and when she's there...
284
00:18:49,378 --> 00:18:50,421
Just empty hole.
285
00:18:51,339 --> 00:18:55,635
Her open grave is there
and there's nobody there with her.
286
00:18:58,763 --> 00:19:00,890
And I just walk over and sit down.
287
00:19:03,059 --> 00:19:04,310
I was so upset
288
00:19:04,393 --> 00:19:07,396
because they wouldn't let me go,
I sat there and cried.
289
00:19:09,148 --> 00:19:12,610
There's that big old vault down there,
and Debbie's gone.
290
00:19:14,362 --> 00:19:18,074
They must've went out there
at 6:30 or seven and started that.
291
00:19:19,241 --> 00:19:21,744
But I was so upset
because they wouldn't let me go.
292
00:19:23,829 --> 00:19:25,289
They wouldn't let me.
293
00:19:28,250 --> 00:19:29,585
I just sat there...
294
00:19:30,252 --> 00:19:31,921
kicked my feet in that dirt.
295
00:19:32,963 --> 00:19:36,175
Sat on the side of her grave
and just kicked my feet in that dirt.
296
00:19:39,261 --> 00:19:40,429
I was so mad.
297
00:19:43,808 --> 00:19:46,268
And I went and got me a 12-pack
and went home.
298
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,692
I think,
some of the biggest changes came...
299
00:19:52,775 --> 00:19:55,569
after Debbie's body had been exhumed.
300
00:20:00,783 --> 00:20:02,576
My Aunt Peggy had really...
301
00:20:02,910 --> 00:20:04,161
started to drink.
302
00:20:04,245 --> 00:20:06,497
Oh, yes, got to drinking.
303
00:20:06,664 --> 00:20:08,666
Ooh-wee!
304
00:20:09,709 --> 00:20:11,335
Pills wasn't working.
305
00:20:12,253 --> 00:20:13,421
Nothing worked.
306
00:20:14,088 --> 00:20:15,297
I got to drinking.
307
00:20:16,132 --> 00:20:18,050
I'd get off at midnight...
308
00:20:18,467 --> 00:20:22,054
and I'd stop at a convenience store
and get me a whole 12-pack.
309
00:20:22,471 --> 00:20:24,557
And I'd hit them country roads,
310
00:20:25,141 --> 00:20:29,019
roll my windows down,
turn that radio up,
311
00:20:29,103 --> 00:20:32,106
and I just sang and drank
312
00:20:32,189 --> 00:20:34,024
and sang and drink.
313
00:20:35,151 --> 00:20:37,445
Throw out them beer cans,
get me another one.
314
00:20:40,614 --> 00:20:43,075
She kind of developed
almost like a double life,
315
00:20:43,159 --> 00:20:46,078
in that she would just drive
country roads and drink,
316
00:20:46,579 --> 00:20:49,790
and somehow make it home and get up and...
317
00:20:50,499 --> 00:20:52,251
go do shift work all over again.
318
00:20:56,589 --> 00:20:58,174
There's times I just...
319
00:20:59,175 --> 00:21:03,012
I mean, I've been on anti-depressers
now for 35 years.
320
00:21:03,679 --> 00:21:05,514
You know, it's bad.
321
00:21:06,056 --> 00:21:07,056
It's bad.
322
00:21:07,558 --> 00:21:11,604
Because I had such a hard time
and still do at times.
323
00:21:14,064 --> 00:21:15,441
That hand print...
324
00:21:15,941 --> 00:21:17,568
and exhuming Debbie's body,
325
00:21:17,651 --> 00:21:21,655
was a pivotal moment in the relationship
that my mom and her sister had.
326
00:21:22,364 --> 00:21:24,700
And my mom actually admitted her.
327
00:21:24,784 --> 00:21:29,663
That was the first time that Peggy
went to a psychiatric hospital because...
328
00:21:30,247 --> 00:21:33,209
they broke her that day
by having her sign those papers.
329
00:21:35,085 --> 00:21:38,297
She would be so drunk and so out of it,
330
00:21:38,380 --> 00:21:40,674
you know, that she just would be...
331
00:21:42,843 --> 00:21:46,555
on one hand just sloppy
and on the other hand just crazy,
332
00:21:46,639 --> 00:21:50,559
you know, with rage and anger.
And that's when I...
333
00:21:50,684 --> 00:21:53,062
...really I look back on it.
334
00:21:53,145 --> 00:21:55,940
And that's when I had to decide, you know,
335
00:21:56,023 --> 00:21:58,859
that's when I learned
I had to separate myself from it.
336
00:22:00,694 --> 00:22:02,363
I've had to put it on the shelf.
337
00:22:03,155 --> 00:22:05,866
I had a seven year old child,
I had to move on.
338
00:22:08,118 --> 00:22:11,413
That was just the breaking point
for my mom, she just couldn't...
339
00:22:12,081 --> 00:22:14,458
she couldn't do it anymore
and she told her, "I can't...
340
00:22:14,542 --> 00:22:16,669
I can't relive this with you every day."
341
00:22:19,922 --> 00:22:22,299
I don't think
it was ever the same after that.
342
00:22:27,596 --> 00:22:31,851
That hand print is
what sent them on their way to court.
343
00:22:32,476 --> 00:22:34,937
Debbie's case moved pretty fast
after that.
344
00:22:43,946 --> 00:22:45,239
Mr. Williams...?
345
00:22:46,782 --> 00:22:49,535
I never killed nobody! I'm gonna prove it!
346
00:23:04,466 --> 00:23:05,801
Oh my goodness.
347
00:23:06,552 --> 00:23:08,053
He come in one day...
348
00:23:09,179 --> 00:23:11,599
and he was real upset about something.
349
00:23:12,224 --> 00:23:14,704
Mr. Williamson, any further
outbursts of anger and this hearing
350
00:23:14,768 --> 00:23:16,687
will be conducted without your presence.
351
00:23:16,770 --> 00:23:17,771
That's fine with me.
352
00:23:17,855 --> 00:23:19,690
This is your own personal decision
to waive...
353
00:23:19,773 --> 00:23:21,191
I said, I'm threatening!
354
00:23:21,275 --> 00:23:24,778
He gets mad.
I don't know what the lawyer says to him.
355
00:23:25,195 --> 00:23:27,197
But he flips this table.
356
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,243
Papers go everywhere, people sit back.
357
00:23:31,327 --> 00:23:34,079
I'm going, "Oh my goodness."
358
00:23:34,830 --> 00:23:37,708
He throwed my little girl
around that apartment like that,
359
00:23:37,791 --> 00:23:38,791
I'll bet you.
360
00:23:39,418 --> 00:23:42,212
Oh my goodness, and I just sat there.
361
00:23:43,047 --> 00:23:46,300
Court record will reflect
that Ron Williamson attempted
362
00:23:46,383 --> 00:23:48,469
to overturn a table
363
00:23:48,552 --> 00:23:51,513
and go after the co-defendant
in this matter
364
00:23:51,597 --> 00:23:54,433
and had to be subdued
and escorted out of the court room.
365
00:23:54,516 --> 00:23:56,727
...first game of the one.
366
00:23:56,810 --> 00:23:58,604
Here's the payout pitch.
367
00:23:58,687 --> 00:24:02,316
It's a hit! There it goes!
It's out of here!
368
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,402
Ron was a small-town boy
369
00:24:05,486 --> 00:24:08,197
with a family
that was very devoutly religious.
370
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,700
Now thou wicked hateful devil,
I come against you!
371
00:24:11,784 --> 00:24:15,829
And I charge you, devil,
take your hands off God's property.
372
00:24:16,372 --> 00:24:19,041
By the time Ron was finishing high school,
373
00:24:19,124 --> 00:24:21,961
he thought, as did a number of scouts,
374
00:24:22,044 --> 00:24:25,673
that in this section of Oklahoma,
he was gonna be the next Mickey Mantle.
375
00:24:25,756 --> 00:24:28,342
From an early age,
he was on that trajectory
376
00:24:28,425 --> 00:24:30,803
to be a professional sports star.
377
00:24:34,890 --> 00:24:37,017
He was drafted and took off.
378
00:24:37,393 --> 00:24:39,019
He was a party boy.
379
00:24:39,103 --> 00:24:42,439
Didn't take care of himself,
a lot of booze, lot of girls.
380
00:24:42,523 --> 00:24:46,360
Cocaine hit that part of the world,
hit American in early '70s and, you know,
381
00:24:46,443 --> 00:24:47,861
Ron was in the middle of it.
382
00:24:51,532 --> 00:24:54,034
He threw his shoulder out.
Hurt his shoulder.
383
00:24:54,118 --> 00:24:59,665
And he came back in rehab
and then went back and he hurt it again.
384
00:24:59,748 --> 00:25:03,585
And I think he kind of realized, then,
he probably wasn't gonna make it.
385
00:25:03,669 --> 00:25:06,880
But I think he went back maybe
a third time and couldn't do nothing.
386
00:25:07,715 --> 00:25:11,093
He just got hurt and couldn't get
over it. It is a very sad thing.
387
00:25:11,176 --> 00:25:14,013
And then later on,
I guess it just destroyed him.
388
00:25:14,096 --> 00:25:18,308
He just was so down because
he couldn't make it and couldn't play.
389
00:25:18,392 --> 00:25:20,728
It's just like
the whole world falls in on you.
390
00:25:22,730 --> 00:25:26,942
He just had so much difficulty
with letting go of that dream.
391
00:25:27,151 --> 00:25:31,780
That was his lifelong, the only dream
he ever had in his life, and it was gone.
392
00:25:34,408 --> 00:25:37,036
He just didn't handle it well at all,
393
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,747
and he turned to drugs and alcohol.
394
00:25:44,460 --> 00:25:47,504
He started showing signs of,
I guess it would be...
395
00:25:48,297 --> 00:25:50,466
called manic depressive back then,
396
00:25:50,549 --> 00:25:53,719
bipolar now, I'm not sure what the...
397
00:25:53,886 --> 00:25:56,180
I'm not sure Ron was ever
properly diagnosed.
398
00:26:01,268 --> 00:26:03,538
Ron had been in trouble
and he was in and out of
399
00:26:03,562 --> 00:26:05,022
that same house up the street.
400
00:26:06,273 --> 00:26:09,651
He would come and use the phone
across the street at the neighbors house.
401
00:26:09,735 --> 00:26:11,528
And then I guess he would come out...
402
00:26:11,612 --> 00:26:14,823
and, like, sit on the curb
and smoke, or whatever.
403
00:26:14,907 --> 00:26:18,285
So he was sitting across the street
from our house...
404
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:20,913
looking towards our house.
405
00:26:27,336 --> 00:26:28,378
What can I say?
406
00:26:30,089 --> 00:26:32,966
We were scared to death.
We thought he was watching us.
407
00:26:33,050 --> 00:26:35,636
We had been inundated with all this fear.
408
00:26:37,012 --> 00:26:38,555
I was terrified of him.
409
00:26:39,389 --> 00:26:42,226
I said it's gotta be more than one.
410
00:26:42,309 --> 00:26:43,477
She could've handled...
411
00:26:44,478 --> 00:26:45,478
one.
412
00:26:45,687 --> 00:26:46,939
'Cause I knew Debbie.
413
00:26:47,022 --> 00:26:49,775
She told me one time, "As long as I've got
414
00:26:49,858 --> 00:26:52,277
teeth and nails and feet
415
00:26:52,361 --> 00:26:54,446
There ain't nobody ever gonna rape me."
416
00:26:59,868 --> 00:27:01,703
Dennis Fritz is my father.
417
00:27:02,204 --> 00:27:06,667
He grew up in both Missouri
and in a town in Oklahoma called Talihina.
418
00:27:07,376 --> 00:27:10,129
My mother was a year older than him,
419
00:27:10,212 --> 00:27:13,715
and they met there when she was a senior
and he was a junior.
420
00:27:17,636 --> 00:27:21,849
He was a school teacher.
He did that for most of my childhood...
421
00:27:22,808 --> 00:27:24,101
in the state of Oklahoma.
422
00:27:24,184 --> 00:27:25,394
He'd move around,
423
00:27:25,853 --> 00:27:28,147
town to town, and teach and coach.
424
00:27:29,189 --> 00:27:32,192
His daughter was in the house
when her mom was shot in the head.
425
00:27:32,693 --> 00:27:36,238
by a young man who lived
in the neighborhood, who was crazy.
426
00:27:37,531 --> 00:27:39,700
And the daughter was a toddler.
427
00:27:42,244 --> 00:27:44,788
It was Christmas Eve, December 24th,
428
00:27:44,872 --> 00:27:49,418
and we had been living
out at a house outside of Durant
429
00:27:49,501 --> 00:27:53,797
and we'd been renting that house
from a near neighbor.
430
00:27:54,256 --> 00:27:57,551
And he had a nephew.
431
00:27:58,385 --> 00:28:01,305
That night
he actually came over to our house.
432
00:28:01,388 --> 00:28:04,516
He knocked on the door
and my mom answered, she recognized him.
433
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,101
He ask to use the phone.
434
00:28:06,185 --> 00:28:09,730
He came in and she stepped out
of the room while he did so,
435
00:28:09,813 --> 00:28:11,231
and I was still in there.
436
00:28:11,315 --> 00:28:16,278
So when she came back in she found
that he was doing something with me
437
00:28:16,361 --> 00:28:19,573
that was somewhat
what she fell inappropriate,
438
00:28:19,907 --> 00:28:22,910
at the time, and so she scolded him.
439
00:28:22,993 --> 00:28:26,496
She told him
she was going to call his uncle
440
00:28:26,580 --> 00:28:28,457
and the police and so on, so forth.
441
00:28:28,540 --> 00:28:30,584
So he left.
442
00:28:30,667 --> 00:28:33,837
He went back to his uncle's house
and he broke into his gun cabinet,
443
00:28:33,921 --> 00:28:36,632
took the gun out, came back,
and shot her through the window.
444
00:28:37,883 --> 00:28:41,970
Got word to my dad
and everybody and the police were called.
445
00:28:42,512 --> 00:28:45,933
My dad was just torn apart.
It destroyed him.
446
00:28:47,476 --> 00:28:51,063
He couldn't care for me
for a period of time following that.
447
00:28:51,438 --> 00:28:53,815
I end up moving to my grandmother's
448
00:28:53,899 --> 00:28:56,944
and then, I think he floated around
in jobs and just,
449
00:28:57,027 --> 00:29:00,155
you know, just wasn't real stable
during that period.
450
00:29:00,822 --> 00:29:02,783
Has there been any time...
451
00:29:04,076 --> 00:29:06,662
in your life, I think you said
something like that,
452
00:29:06,745 --> 00:29:10,249
that you have gotten mad enough at someone
where you wanted to kill them?
453
00:29:10,332 --> 00:29:14,419
Well, yes, there has,
the man that took my wife's life.
454
00:29:15,170 --> 00:29:17,798
And I wanted to kill the man.
455
00:29:20,175 --> 00:29:21,975
It messed Dennis up for a long time.
456
00:29:22,052 --> 00:29:25,305
He worked on the railroad,
he taught school.
457
00:29:25,389 --> 00:29:27,683
He somehow ended up in Oklahoma
458
00:29:28,267 --> 00:29:31,395
and started hanging around Ada,
looking for friends, just something to do,
459
00:29:31,979 --> 00:29:33,397
and met Ron.
460
00:29:34,064 --> 00:29:36,024
That was his big mistake.
461
00:29:37,734 --> 00:29:41,613
He was kind of talking crazy
that night, you know?
462
00:29:41,697 --> 00:29:43,573
Like talking about...
463
00:29:44,866 --> 00:29:48,829
he didn't wanna live, you know,
and he didn't care to live no more.
464
00:29:48,912 --> 00:29:50,747
He'd been drinking a lot.
465
00:29:52,124 --> 00:29:53,124
And...
466
00:29:53,709 --> 00:29:56,378
He passed this girl,
this girl passed him on the street
467
00:29:56,461 --> 00:30:00,007
He said, "I'd like to rape her
and kill her.
468
00:30:00,757 --> 00:30:03,635
You know, like that." I said,
"What are you talking about?
469
00:30:03,719 --> 00:30:05,721
You are talking out of your mind."
470
00:30:08,932 --> 00:30:11,518
Fritz, I don't know.
His story doesn't really check out.
471
00:30:11,977 --> 00:30:14,396
He never did tell anyone
where he was that night.
472
00:30:15,314 --> 00:30:17,607
And he called in sick to work
the next day.
473
00:30:18,275 --> 00:30:20,986
Did you find any pubic hairs...
474
00:30:21,987 --> 00:30:23,405
that match that of Dennis Fritz?
475
00:30:23,780 --> 00:30:25,032
Yes, sir, I did.
476
00:30:25,115 --> 00:30:27,993
I found one pubic hair from a washcloth.
477
00:30:29,244 --> 00:30:31,204
My opinion that it is consistent,
478
00:30:31,872 --> 00:30:33,957
I believe it was Dennis Fritz's...
479
00:30:34,750 --> 00:30:36,501
pubic hair, it's his.
480
00:30:36,585 --> 00:30:38,837
I think Ron was kind of the mastermind.
481
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,756
You know, it was his deal,
he thought of it.
482
00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:42,257
Dennis was just kind of...
483
00:30:42,674 --> 00:30:44,468
along for the ride, or whatever.
484
00:30:45,344 --> 00:30:47,804
In Dennis's case, he was found guilty,
485
00:30:48,513 --> 00:30:51,099
and they move into the sentencing phase.
486
00:30:51,475 --> 00:30:56,521
And Dennis came within one vote
of getting the death penalty.
487
00:31:03,987 --> 00:31:08,116
RON WILLIAMSON'S
TRIAL STARTS APR 27
488
00:31:10,285 --> 00:31:12,621
The defendant says, "Just imagine this.
489
00:31:13,622 --> 00:31:18,418
When I was living in Tulsa, been drinking
and taking Quaaludes all day,
490
00:31:18,502 --> 00:31:21,463
and then drove to Coachlight,
and drank some more.
491
00:31:21,546 --> 00:31:22,964
I got a little bit drunker.
492
00:31:23,632 --> 00:31:25,467
I ended up at Debbie Carter's door.
493
00:31:25,550 --> 00:31:29,054
Knocked on the door, and she said,
'Just a minute, I'm on the phone.'
494
00:31:29,638 --> 00:31:32,432
I burst in the door,
I raped and killed her."
495
00:31:34,851 --> 00:31:37,104
I sit there and thinking how...
496
00:31:38,438 --> 00:31:40,232
Why did they do it? I...
497
00:31:40,315 --> 00:31:42,109
Oh, I hated them so bad.
498
00:31:42,859 --> 00:31:43,902
I just...
499
00:31:45,695 --> 00:31:47,364
I didn't look at them that much.
500
00:31:47,489 --> 00:31:49,491
I kept my head down a lot.
501
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,494
It was just sickening to look at them.
502
00:31:53,662 --> 00:31:56,540
Look at Debbie Carter,
you tell me she didn't resist...
503
00:31:57,332 --> 00:31:59,376
with every fiber in her body.
504
00:32:13,390 --> 00:32:16,435
She had all these little places
on her nose.
505
00:32:17,185 --> 00:32:21,231
It looks like somebody put out cigarettes
on her nose. Oh, it was...
506
00:32:24,109 --> 00:32:27,070
And her lips were so big
and Debbie had little lips.
507
00:32:27,904 --> 00:32:29,239
He just...
508
00:32:30,449 --> 00:32:31,950
Was so mad at her.
509
00:32:32,242 --> 00:32:34,286
He done so much to her.
510
00:32:34,369 --> 00:32:37,247
One of her little eyes
was all messed up, they said.
511
00:32:37,497 --> 00:32:38,707
And then he had...
512
00:32:39,124 --> 00:32:41,543
stuffed a wash rag down her throat.
513
00:32:42,461 --> 00:32:44,546
They had that wash rag at court.
514
00:32:45,547 --> 00:32:48,258
But they said the inside of her cheeks...
515
00:32:49,384 --> 00:32:51,219
looked like hamburger meat
516
00:32:51,303 --> 00:32:54,264
where she had tried
to get that wash rag up.
517
00:32:56,641 --> 00:32:59,436
Well, I found out when I went to court
518
00:32:59,519 --> 00:33:01,938
that there was two things...
519
00:33:03,023 --> 00:33:05,775
that he used on Debbie's neck.
520
00:33:08,153 --> 00:33:11,698
Her cowboy belt
and her electric blanket cord.
521
00:33:13,658 --> 00:33:15,118
I bought both of them.
522
00:33:18,497 --> 00:33:19,998
Bought both of them.
523
00:33:24,294 --> 00:33:27,797
Question is who killed Debbie Carter?
524
00:33:28,507 --> 00:33:29,883
Who killed Debbie Carter?
525
00:33:30,634 --> 00:33:33,345
The death was caused by the defendant.
526
00:33:34,554 --> 00:33:37,265
We had lot of people
that grew up in Ada who would tell us...
527
00:33:37,933 --> 00:33:40,286
You know when they were kids,
you know how your parents say,
528
00:33:40,310 --> 00:33:42,604
"You be home by dark
'cause the boogeyman's out there"?
529
00:33:42,687 --> 00:33:44,814
Well, for them,
the boogeyman was Ron Williamson.
530
00:33:47,859 --> 00:33:51,947
Ron Williamson lived
in a little thing behind his mom's house.
531
00:33:52,447 --> 00:33:54,324
And you could step outside
532
00:33:54,407 --> 00:33:59,162
the back fence of Williamson's mom's house
and see Debbie Sue Carter's... apartment.
533
00:33:59,246 --> 00:34:02,666
A guy with a pretty good arm
could put a baseball through the window.
534
00:34:02,749 --> 00:34:05,752
Halfway between them,
on the intersecting street,
535
00:34:05,835 --> 00:34:07,629
was a woman named Andrea Hardcastle
536
00:34:07,712 --> 00:34:10,924
that Ron Williams did exactly the same
thing too as he did to Debbie Carter
537
00:34:11,007 --> 00:34:12,300
except he didn't kill her.
538
00:34:15,095 --> 00:34:18,598
My neighbor that used to live
across the street from me, Roy Haney,
539
00:34:18,682 --> 00:34:21,184
him, and what he introduced
as Ronnie Williamson
540
00:34:21,268 --> 00:34:22,936
came over to my house.
541
00:34:23,019 --> 00:34:24,688
It was on a Friday or Saturday night.
542
00:34:25,063 --> 00:34:27,732
He said that the girls like me
should share themselves,
543
00:34:27,816 --> 00:34:30,151
and he told me
that he was going to fuck me.
544
00:34:31,027 --> 00:34:33,196
He hit me and he knocked me on the floor.
545
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,366
And handling my breast, between my legs.
546
00:34:36,449 --> 00:34:37,826
He was very rough.
547
00:34:38,868 --> 00:34:40,620
I was screaming at first.
548
00:34:42,330 --> 00:34:45,000
And he kept telling me
that if I didn't do what he told me to do
549
00:34:45,083 --> 00:34:46,751
that he was gonna fuck me up.
550
00:34:48,878 --> 00:34:51,214
Andrea Hardcastle was a young girl
at the time.
551
00:34:51,298 --> 00:34:55,927
She came forward
and stated that Ron had molested her...
552
00:34:56,344 --> 00:34:59,055
some years before,
although she never pressed charges.
553
00:35:00,056 --> 00:35:02,809
She was also friends
with Dennis Smith's daughter...
554
00:35:04,436 --> 00:35:07,480
and also knew Debbie Carter
as well, so...
555
00:35:08,565 --> 00:35:11,443
You know, all those kids
knew each other basically, so...
556
00:35:11,943 --> 00:35:13,945
Ronnie was sitting on top of my chest
557
00:35:14,029 --> 00:35:17,198
and he said, "You know
I'm gonna have to kill you, don't you?"
558
00:35:17,824 --> 00:35:19,034
And I said, "Yes."
559
00:35:20,035 --> 00:35:22,912
And I had already made my peace with God
560
00:35:22,996 --> 00:35:25,498
and just hoped
that someone would find the kids.
561
00:35:27,792 --> 00:35:30,295
Glen Gore was one of our witnesses.
562
00:35:30,962 --> 00:35:34,090
He testified that yes,
563
00:35:34,174 --> 00:35:36,301
Ron Williamson and Dennis Fritz
564
00:35:36,426 --> 00:35:38,762
was at the Coachlight that night.
565
00:35:39,220 --> 00:35:44,476
And him and Debbie
were kind of arguing with each other.
566
00:35:45,685 --> 00:35:49,439
On the night of December the 7th, 1982,
did you have an occasion to see him?
567
00:35:49,522 --> 00:35:50,522
Yes.
568
00:35:50,982 --> 00:35:52,025
And where was that?
569
00:35:52,108 --> 00:35:53,610
It was at the Coachlight.
570
00:35:53,693 --> 00:35:55,862
I can't remember
who I was sitting there with us.
571
00:35:55,945 --> 00:35:58,573
Anyway, I went up to get me another drink
572
00:35:58,657 --> 00:36:01,326
and Debbie said,
"Glen, would you rescue me?"
573
00:36:01,785 --> 00:36:03,870
Saying he was bugging her so...
574
00:36:04,663 --> 00:36:06,998
they went out... me and her
went out on the dance floor.
575
00:36:07,499 --> 00:36:09,417
Do you know, did you hear...
576
00:36:09,501 --> 00:36:12,837
or do you know if Ron Williamson,
what he said to Mrs. Carter?
577
00:36:12,921 --> 00:36:15,006
No, I was just walking by.
578
00:36:15,090 --> 00:36:17,926
She tapped me on the shoulder,
said, "Save me."
579
00:36:18,009 --> 00:36:19,344
Save me.
580
00:36:20,011 --> 00:36:22,972
But you did see
the defendant Ron Williams talk to her?
581
00:36:23,056 --> 00:36:24,056
Yes.
582
00:36:32,232 --> 00:36:36,069
As the club was closing,
the Carpenters, both Terry and Mike,
583
00:36:36,152 --> 00:36:40,949
both saw Debbie
and somebody arguing in her car.
584
00:36:41,032 --> 00:36:43,410
She kind of push him away
and got in the car and drove off.
585
00:36:45,453 --> 00:36:49,791
Gary Rogers, agent with the Oklahoma State
Bureau of Investigation, testified next.
586
00:36:49,874 --> 00:36:53,503
"Ron Williamson told him
and Rusty Featherstone
587
00:36:53,586 --> 00:36:55,547
that he dreamed
about killing Debbie Carter;
588
00:36:55,630 --> 00:36:57,507
that he was on her
with a cord around her neck.
589
00:36:58,383 --> 00:37:02,512
One of Agents asked him why,
and he answered, "'She made me mad.'"
590
00:37:03,805 --> 00:37:07,267
Then the witnesses testified
who told you about...
591
00:37:07,934 --> 00:37:12,188
hearing Ron Williamson talk about his
involvement in Debbie Carter's death.
592
00:37:12,564 --> 00:37:15,233
Terri Holland was the first one of those.
593
00:37:15,316 --> 00:37:18,820
She heard him say
to someone else there in the jail...
594
00:37:20,238 --> 00:37:22,038
"...he said he shoved a coke bottle
up her ass
595
00:37:22,115 --> 00:37:23,783
and her panties down on the ground.
596
00:37:24,784 --> 00:37:27,036
And Mell Hett was the state last witness,
597
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,164
who told you,
tried to explain a little bit
598
00:37:29,247 --> 00:37:31,207
about the science of hair comparison,
599
00:37:31,291 --> 00:37:35,003
and the results that can be
obtained from those kinds of test.
600
00:37:35,086 --> 00:37:37,672
Told you that there were two on the bed,
601
00:37:37,756 --> 00:37:39,966
on Debbie Carter's bedding,
two pubic hairs,
602
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,802
consistent with those of Ron Williamson,
603
00:37:43,344 --> 00:37:46,139
and that there were two head
or scalp hairs...
604
00:37:46,222 --> 00:37:49,142
on the washcloth taken
from Debbie Carter's mouth
605
00:37:49,225 --> 00:37:52,395
that were consistent with the head hairs
of Ron Williamson.
606
00:37:55,815 --> 00:37:57,859
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury,
607
00:37:57,942 --> 00:37:59,736
you've heard all the evidence
in this case.
608
00:38:01,488 --> 00:38:03,114
The evidence is overwhelming.
609
00:38:04,741 --> 00:38:06,159
The facts cry out...
610
00:38:07,076 --> 00:38:08,578
for a guilty verdict.
611
00:38:09,996 --> 00:38:12,874
I'm gonna ask you to say,
"Ron Williamson,
612
00:38:13,541 --> 00:38:16,753
you deserve to die
for what you did to Debbie Carter."
613
00:38:23,051 --> 00:38:26,846
"We the jury drawn in panel
and sworn in the above entitled cause,
614
00:38:26,930 --> 00:38:30,058
drew up on our own,
having here for found the defendant,
615
00:38:30,141 --> 00:38:33,186
Ron Keith Williamson,
guilty of murder in the first degree,
616
00:38:33,269 --> 00:38:35,480
states his punishment as death."
617
00:38:44,739 --> 00:38:45,990
One of the things
618
00:38:46,074 --> 00:38:48,368
that's really troubling
about Debbie's murder
619
00:38:48,451 --> 00:38:51,663
is that when you begin
to look at everything else,
620
00:38:52,372 --> 00:38:54,749
to realize that she was
just collateral damage.
621
00:38:55,458 --> 00:38:58,586
That it changed everything
about our family
622
00:38:58,670 --> 00:39:00,630
and about how...
623
00:39:02,131 --> 00:39:04,050
certainly I've view the world.
624
00:39:04,884 --> 00:39:07,554
Certainly changed everything
for my aunt...
625
00:39:09,389 --> 00:39:11,641
but that she was really
just collateral damage
626
00:39:11,724 --> 00:39:13,518
in something bigger?
627
00:39:15,103 --> 00:39:18,398
It is sickening
that we don't even know what all...
628
00:39:18,481 --> 00:39:21,568
It's 30-something years later
and we don't even know what all that is
629
00:39:21,651 --> 00:39:23,236
and how that fits together.
630
00:39:26,447 --> 00:39:28,825
New information tonight
in a rape and murder case
631
00:39:28,908 --> 00:39:31,077
that a victim's family thought was over.
632
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,454
Now that family has learned
their daughter's killer
633
00:39:33,538 --> 00:39:35,290
could still be on the loose.
634
00:39:35,373 --> 00:39:38,293
New DNA testing could mean
that the two men convicted
635
00:39:38,376 --> 00:39:41,462
of the 1982 rape and murder
of Debbie Carter of Ada
636
00:39:41,546 --> 00:39:42,672
could go free.
637
00:39:43,006 --> 00:39:45,216
It's our big story tonight at six.
638
00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:48,678
Eyewitness News 5 reporter, Steve Volker,
joins us live from Ada tonight.
639
00:39:48,761 --> 00:39:51,973
And Steve, some shocking news
in this case that many thought was solved.
640
00:39:52,056 --> 00:39:56,311
It was in this county courthouse
where Ron Williamson and Dennis Fritz
641
00:39:56,394 --> 00:39:57,937
were sentenced 12 years ago.
642
00:39:58,021 --> 00:40:01,649
And it will be in this courthouse where
we will learn if they will be set free.
643
00:40:04,649 --> 00:40:08,649
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