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Do you guys know
who the hell I am?

- Anybody, any...
- Woo!

Good but I was kinda
hoping you didn't, but...

I had been feeling

a bit of an outsider for a
little bit of time, you know.

So it wasn't any shocker

that that big
conversation came about.

It's as simple as this.

I mean, Jeff all but said,

I want my band back.

May as well have
said those words.

He didn't though, you know.

I am not putting
words in Jeff's mouth.

I'm not gonna do that.

He did not say I want my band
back, but he actually did.

And he had every right in the
world to say that, you know.

I think the hyperbolic
way that he said it was,

"I think a circle can
only have one center."

Well, what does that mean?

I think Jay
was the kind of person

who jumps into the
deep end of the pool

and swims for survival.

I think that's how he
learned a lot of things.

He sorta jumped into
them and felt his way.

Very, very intuitively.

Some people play music
for the drugs and the chicks

and for all their friends
to think they're cool.

Everybody already knew
Jay Bennett was cool.

You know, he was a normal dude

that just happened to be an
insanely gifted musician.

Here's a guy who
lives music. He is the song.

He becomes the part.

Because he and his brother
Jeff were so close in age

they were constant playmates

even starting from the point

when we would put
one in the crib

with the other one to play.

And that's when they began
their hat collection.

They had hats that represented

any kind of male role.

So they were sailors,
they were soldiers,

they were astronauts.

Then they were explorers.

I think probably all in
total they had about 50 hats.

Jay was probably less than a
year old when that started.

So from then on that generated

a lot of their imaginary play.

Sewing with Miss Bennett.

All right, you got this going?

- Yeah.
- - Okay.

Step one, thread
under that thing,

around that little guy,

and then just push
down on the gas pedal

and wind your bobbin.

Push it back over.

Push the little guy back up.

Thread the needle.

You go through that
little thing in the foot,

pull it back that way.

Close that.

This is kinda set about right.

That's set about right.

This is straight and zigzag.

And then clamp
down on something.

There's the foot lifter.

Besides the hats being some
kind of a security thing,

at some point in
his preschool years,

he got a button down the
front, button collar,

long sleeve red shirt,

sort of a dusty red shirt

and wore it every day.

And it fell apart to the point

where he didn't wear
it to bed anymore

but he would put it
on in the morning

and it was just a vest

except that the cuffs
were still there.

The sleeves weren't there.

And I remember seeing
him reaching down

and putting the cuffs on,

which no longer had buttons.

They had safety pins, you know.

So he would put this vest
on and put the cuffs on.

Jay was a very good
baseball player

and he wound up being a pitcher.

And he was usually
in the World Series,

you know, on the winning team.

Oh, this is some of his
artwork way back when.

The neat thing about
this cartoon character

that he would draw repeatedly

is he would put his pen
or something down here

and never pick it up.

And he would start at the bottom

and then he would draw
this cartoon character.

One year, he did Christmas
cards.

How old was he at that point?

Maybe about eighth grade.

I tried to get him to
take some art courses

and he said he didn't need to.

If somebody's doorbell rang,

he would tell you
what the key was.

If somebody's cell phone rang,

he would tell you that.

His brother had like six
months of piano lessons

and I probably had about
six months of piano lessons,

but we played, I would
say mathematically

and Jay played intuitively.

The first guitar
that he ever owned

was an acoustic guitar

which we purchased when
he was in eighth grade.

He had the choice of going
on the eighth grade trip

to Washington DC or
buying the guitar

and he chose to buy the guitar.

- My parents arranged
for him to take lessons

from a guy named Larry Petrillo,

who actually happened
to be a teacher

who worked at the school
where my father was principal.

He thought Jay had
some real talent.

And I didn't believe him.

And my memory is that
Larry came over to the house

no more than four or five times.

And after that told my parents,

there was nothing left
that he could teach Jay.

He had a band, Wet Pavement,

and then Rebel Ducks
and the Robesmen.

I love the Robesmen story

because I think there
were three or four of 'em.

They had rented some
recording equipment.

They got a good deal on it

if they could rent it
from 10:00 at night

to five in the morning.

So they set it all up
downstairs in our basement,

which at the time
was a new basement

and wasn't heated or air
conditioned or anything.

At some point around one
or two in the morning

they got cold.

So they came upstairs and
got everybody's bathrobes

out of the bedrooms and
went back downstairs,

continued their recording.

And recorded what was some
pretty interesting music

about half original,

half covers as I recall,

and put it on a tape at the
time and called it the Robesmen.

It was just, you know,

a bunch of guys with
the love of music,

staying up all night,
doing something crazy.

I don't think it was,

it didn't get them a record
deal or anything like that.

He went to college,

came home I think
for Christmas break,

and there was a wall
between the kitchen

and the living room.

And I heard his brother
Jeff playing the piano.

I remember saying
from the kitchen,

"Gee, Jeff, you musta
learned a new song

while you were at college."

And Jay responded and said,

"It's not Jeff playing
the piano, Mom, it's me."

He said, "I figured out the
piano's just like the guitar."

There was a period in the '70s,

in our early teen years
where like most kids,

he rediscovered the classics,
the Beatles, the Stones,

the Who, Neil Young,
who remained a favorite

for a long, long time.

But I think I noticed a
change in the late '70s

in the punk rock,

new wave movement

where Jay really saw
something different.

I remember the first
time that we would listen

to The Clash, the Talking
Heads, Squeeze, Jam,

and just standing in his room,

listening to the record player

over and over on
some of those tracks.

I was just enjoying the music.

He was figuring out how
to play the guitar solo.

But something clicked
in him in that era.

And it's interesting
that musically,

he never replicated that exactly

but I think you see
elements in all of that

in what he did.

It was the right sort of
music at the right time

when he was really just
beginning to mature

as a musician himself.

Ah.

Ah, here again, this way.

This doesn't sound good though.

- I knew Jay like 1987,
1989-ish, in that era.

And that was like the height

of the local rock
scene at the time

and there was a lot going on.

And I worked for
the radio station

at University of
Illinois, WPGU, as a DJ.

But my main interaction with him

because I was, I'm a singer.

So he wanted to do
a little duet group.

Well, there was
this open mic night

at this place called
the Alley Cat.

We went every single Monday
so we worked up a set.

So my roommate was
supposed to get luggage

from her mother
for her birthday.

And they sent this camera.

The three of us
were good friends.

We hung out a lot and he'd
be over at our apartment.

So we just wound up
running around campus

with this camera, just being
like goofballs.

For it is I.

For it is I, being
often known as me.

Here, being alone.

- The first song he did,

we were at our apartment
and we realized

that in the song they
mentioned a fire escape.

So we're like, "Let's go out
and do it on a fire escape.

This'll be great."

Tell me about
the first time you met Jay.

Probably the first time
I saw him was onstage

with Titanic Love Affair.

I was an editor and reporter
at "The Daily Illini",

the local college newspaper,

and was interested
in the rock bands

that were playing on campus.

I heard about this group
Titanic Love Affair.

Saw them a couple of times
at local bars in Champaign,

and just was blown away
by how great this band was

and particularly with this
guitar player, Jay Bennett,

who was kind of wild
on stage at that point.

Titanic Love Affair
was on Charisma,

which was a subsidiary
of a major label.

They had a fancy video

for the first record

That was in '91.

When they left the label,
the band was still together,

Jay wanted to make
another record.

And Jay had a really cool idea

where I think generally

when record is made the
artists, if they pick a studio

that wants sort of the
sonic imprint of the studio

on the record, in terms
of the sound of it,

like say the sound of this room.

Like an entire album will
be done in this room.

There'll be a certain
stamp that comes

from all being recorded
in the same place.

So on that record, Jay
had a pretty cool idea

where he was like,
he wanted to cut

not just songs but
instruments for all the songs

in many, many, many
different places

so that there would be

no identifiable acoustical
fingerprint to the record.

It would just sound
like something that
was made everywhere.

And it's something
that rarely gets done.

I thought it was a great idea.

- For a long time, this
was his favorite book,

"Where the Wild Things Are".

His third grade class went
to the library once a week.

And I finally got a notice
from his third grade teacher

that she was hoping that
I would encourage Jay

to check out a different
book because each week

he would renew it.

I also sorta always wondered

if the drawings in the book,

of the monsters and stuff,

had any application
to the TLA album,

especially this kinda picture.

There's sort of like two covers.

One is the four of them

and one of them is
the four of them

as the monsters.

And at some point

after Titanic Love
Affair imploded,

Jay got noticed by Jeff Tweed.

We had finished the first
Wilco record in Memphis

and we were in St. Louis

and Jeff said, "There's
this guitarist in a band

that might be a perfect fit."

It was in this band called
Titanic Love Affair.

And I'd heard of that band,

but I wasn't really,
I wouldn't say a fan.

But we went and saw him play

and he was playing with the
band Steve Pride and the Kin.

Afterwards, we
all sorta hung out

and I hear this voice
come out of him.

And I'm like, that's a pretty
deep, low baritone voice.

And he's talking for
awhile and I thought,

when's this guy gonna
drop the charade

and talk in his normal voice.

But of course he didn't.
That was his voice.

You know, just this
rich, deep baritone.

It was Jay.

And a very disarming and kind

and standing there drinking
Bud Light like he always did.

Bringing Jay
Bennett into the band,

Jay had nothing
to do with "A.M.".

Jay Bennett became a
touring guitarist basically

after "A.M." was released
and playing those songs

basically as the hired
gun guitar player.

And obviously it
turned much more than that,

again, once they saw his
talent and the contribution

he could make.

But then one time
I remember we were,

we're at some club that had
an old out of tune piano

and we're backstage.

This is on I think the end
of the first Wilco tour.

And Jay just sits down
and starts playing.

And we're like, "Man,
you never told us

you played piano or keys.

What are you doing?"

So then on

the "Being There" record,
Jay's all over the Hammond

and that starts to come
out and he plays piano,

but his Hammond
playing was amazing.

And Jay was kind of
like, well, I can play

pretty much anything you
throw at me, you know.

There's this
multi-instrumentalist kinda guy.

And, and it was a
revelation to them

that, hey, this guy's got
a little bit more going on

than just the hired
gun guitar player.

So we have this guy

who can play like Don Rich

from Buck Owens's
band on Telecaster.

He can obviously do

the Pete Townsend
thing with the SG.

I mean, he was all about
the guitar and tone.

And then you had where
he played Hammond

and he sounded like
a 63-year-old black
man from Brooklyn,

you know, playing a Hammond.

And when he jumped on the
drums, he was terrible

but in the best way possible.

Like some of my favorite
drummers are drummers

that can't play and they
barely make that fill around

and then they'll land and he had

that, like everything,
everything mattered

and I'm gonna give
you everything

playing the drums 'cause
this is what I have.

And he also had, you know,
songwriting sensibility

that Jeff encouraged.

He was like, "What
else you got?"

But as time went on, he and Jeff

started writing more
and more together.

And he was Jeff's
catalyst to a world

that Jeff didn't really live in.

And I think it opened
up a lot of avenues.

I think that was obvious.

It seemed to me that Tweedy

is this incredible artist
who plays amazingly well

when he has a strong
opposition of some sort.

So all of a sudden
Bennett started filtering

into the lineup.

And I think Jeff was
already on this path.

He knew that "Being
There" had to step up

from where "A.M. was.

He knew that there
was that rivalry there

with Uncle Tupelo and Son Volt.

And Son Volt, in the
eyes of many people,

including some of
the members of Wilco,

as they told me,
clearly won round one.

I thought both made
excellent albums,

but I was more of
a Son Volt person.

When Jay Bennett started having

a prominent role in Wilco,

like, I didn't know who Jay
Bennett was at the time,

but something made me start
listening to Wilco more

and really digging Wilco.

And then I was, well, wait,

why am I finding myself
drifting over here?

And I started looking at it

and I was like, oh,
there's this dude.

And he's playing
a bunch of stuff

and helping write
a bunch of stuff

and arranging a bunch of stuff.

It's real country music.

I don't buy the whole
it's country music

with a rock edge
business, do you?

I think it's this
real country music.

People aren't used
to hearing that.

Does that make sense?

- I know from working
with Jay in the studio,

he has a way of bringing
out particular things

and exploring musical ideas

that helps, you know,

sort of inspire creativity

and thinking, oh, well,
here's another direction

that we could take this.

"Being There"
was just winging it.

Those were all rough mixes.

You know, I mean,

there hasn't been a
conscious effort to make...

I mean, there's been a conscious
effort to make good music.

You know, I mean, on that album,

there's two different
versions of-

"Outtamind Outtasite".

Yes, right.

And you know, that
being an example

where if the song is good,

you can take it
in one direction,

you can take it in
another direction

and it's still
going to be great.

And you know, when you
would see them live

during that period,

they would be pretty
fast and loose.

And sometimes they might do
a punk rock version of a song

that wasn't that
way on the record.

In the salad days
when we were in vans

and we'd stop, Jeff would
wanna stop at McDonald's

and Jay would always get
triple orders of French fries.

He'd be sitting in
the back of the van

and he would get 92 ketchups.

Jay Bennett
ate a lot of ketchup,

like way more ketchup
than you could imagine.

Arguably more ketchup than food.

Jay Bennett would put
almost an entire packet

on each bite of fries.

Who uses that much ketchup?

Our first tour to Europe
and Jay orders pommes frites,

'cause you know,
there's meat everywhere.

I think we're in Germany.

Pommes frites, all
these fries come out

and he goes up to
get his 92 ketchups

and they charge him.

And he's shelling out
doubloons or whatever

buying all of this.

I was like, "Man, you
spent $20 on ketchup?"

Yeah. I thought that was funny.

He loved these Toyota Corollas.

The Toyota Corolla,

two-door sedan, probably the
most sensible car in the world.

He and his dad,

I think they had four of 'em

and they would always
tinker with these cars.

Here's Jay working on one
of his cars with his dad

and you'll notice he
has to have the hat on.

And it's a summer.

We're in his Corolla
brown station wagon

and the thing just bites it.

You know...

So Jay's in the front and
it's me, John, and Jeff

pushing this car
down the street.

Just like
it's the funniest thing

when I think back on it.

Just like, "Okay, keep pushing!"

People honking, "Oh, you losers.

Look at these guys
and going nowhere!"

That's a period where we
were on the road a lot.

The most we ever went
out I think was 300 days.

We would record in
different cities

while we were on the road.

We did some stuff in
Austin, Portland, Oregon.

We did stuff in
Nashville, Chicago.

Now, it was a live band
and it was a studio band.

And "Being There" to
me was the first time

that it sounded like that
band went into the studio.

That's a hard
thing to replicate.

"Being There" tour was
more like reckless abandon.

At least with "Summerteeth",
we had some direction,

but when we cut loose
to party, boy, did we.

We used to do this thing
called the Sea of Cups.

When we played a
lot of festivals,

Jay would be a few Bud Lights in

and he would grab a golf cart.

And we'd just parade

through these cups
flying everywhere,

him going too fast,
security people

screaming at us.
- That's enough of this!

And I was convinced
he was gonna flip it

and we were gonna die.

But I was like,
well, if I'm going,

this is how I'm going.

Jay was fun. There's
no doubt about that.

- "Europe, the Final Countdown",
do you have that one?

- How 'bout the Yes one.

That...

But again, at the same time

musically, those were some
of the best Wilco shows ever.

And on a few songs,

Jay would start on
piano and had his guitar

slung around his back

and then just end the song
with a blistering solo.

And you never knew
what to expect.

Again, even as basically
the closest guy to the fire,

I was amazed.

I'm like, "Did he just do that?"

Not only his chicken
picking lead playing

was constantly getting better
or he was holding back on us

and none of us knew
his true ability,

but every night, and I'm
talking everybody in the band,

they would do
stuff, we were like,

"Oh, you can do that too?"

And that was the crew.

So it was a magic
combination too.

It was combustible at times

but there was a chemistry
to that era of Wilco.

And people used to tell
us this all the time too.

It was like, you
take away one member

and it's not the same.

I was in this other band man

and we made a record called
"Mermaid Avenue" and-

I was doing some
background vocals

and Billy went out for
a cup of tea, mate.

Gin.

I was in the booth doing
the background vocals

and as soon as Billy
would walk out,

I'd do the background
vocals in Billy's voice.

And he walked back in

and everybody would
be cracking up

and just, just
everybody goes silent

and Billy's like,
"What's going on?

What's going on?"

And then he'd leave the
room and we'd do it again.

I of course fought for
those background vocals

to stay on the record

but I went ahead and sang
them him in my own voice

for better or worse.

- This was around 1995.

1994.

I first discovered
that there were

about 3000 lyrics of my father's

that had never been heard.

And as I was reading
through them,

I thought, "Boy, some of
them are more appropriate now

than they were then."

One of the lyrics
that I have of my dad

was actually a piece of artwork.

And he often combined
lyrics and artwork together.

And there was this one picture

of a kind of a woman

and it said, "You woke
up my neighborhood."

And when I was thinking
of who to work with,

I'm not sure if
somebody mentioned Billy

or I heard Billy on the radio.

And I saw on his CD
that he had a song

called "You Woke Up
my Neighborhood".

He had been down at the
Smithsonian Folkways

and he saw this line
that Woody had written

and he loved it.

So he took the line and
he wrote a song called it.

Then I started
listening to him a lot

and I loved his immediacy.

- Basically my sense of
it was that it needed

one group of musicians.

Nora Guthrie had a
long list of people

that she thought
would be suitable,

but I was really concerned
that it would sound

like a tribute album, you know,

if a different person
sang every song.

I felt we needed a core, bit
like "The Basement Tapes",

so that you've got a bunch
of guys playing the songs.

And "Being There"
had just come out.

It was clear from that
that Wilco could play

all sorts of different styles.

- I remember how excited Jay was

about being able to go into
the Woody Guthrie archives.

- He called and he said,

"Mom, I was holding a
cocktail napkin in my hand

and Woody had written
some potential lyrics

on the cocktail napkin."

He had left it in this facility

or venue or whatever.

Pete Seeger found it.

And Pete had written
on the cocktail napkin,

"Woody, you left this behind.

I think you might want it."

And Jay said, "I was holding
a napkin that Woody Guthrie

and Pete Seeger had held."

He said, "I felt like I was
holding a piece of history

in my hands."

Every night, I just
like sit there in the kitchen

with an old recorder like
that and throw out ideas.

Like looking at the lyrics,

and these little drawings
and his handwriting

and little PSs that he wrote
at the end of the things

like "California Stars", man,

at the end of that
he just wrote,

"This song doesn't
have too many lyrics,

so sing it twice."

And we did. We obeyed
his little instructions.

- The real beginning of
my relationship with Jay

was in Chicago when we
came to ostensibly to demo.

And it was clear
from sitting down

when we sort of played
each other the songs,

it became clear to me that Jay

was actually the
point man on this.

Jay has a scholar air to him

that he knew so much
about instruments

and that he came with

a room full of instruments,

just trying all these
different things.

They didn't always work.

And he's, "Not that
let's do this."

He's the musical undercurrent
in a very tough spot

of trying to make these two
singers, these two voices,

these two instruments connect.

- Well, because "Mermaid Avenue"

was a collaboration
with Billy Bragg

and there were
tensions there too,

between those two camps,

There were some ego battles.

Put two bands
together like that,

isn't there gonna be some
ego battle somewhere?

I would think so.

- You know, but I mean,

it was definitely a situation

where they came in and
they performed wonderfully

and those were all
supposed to be demos.

And they went to
Ireland to actually,

is where they went, I guess,

to do the real recording
and Wilco was like,

"We're not gonna
redo those songs.

They're just done."

And I'm sure Billy Bragg
supposedly was like,

"No, we're gonna rerecord them."

And there was a tension.

And then it was like,
"No, those are done.

Those sound great."

Jay, somehow sonically was able

to thread them all
together, you know,

and then pull the strings
a little bit tighter

so that it would kind
of come into a tapestry.

- You gotta understand,
"Mermaid Avenue"

was a bit like going every
day to the dressing up box

with these songs.

You could be whoever
you wanted to be.

One day we could be, you know,

sort of Bob Dylan, The Band,

the next day we
could be The Birds,

the next day we
could be Tom Waits.

It was just such fun.

So everybody was encouraged
to do a little bit like that.

I mean, I remember Jeff
playing harmonica over one song

and I said to Jay, "Oh,
that's pretty good.

How long he's been doing that?"

And Jay said, "About a week."

You know, it was great.

Everybody had that,

it was that sort of atmosphere.

You could throw anything
at these songs, you know.

And I know in
particular for him,

it was a very
emotional experience

to write the song
"California Stars".

That really, he really
felt that he was channeling

Woody Guthrie to write
what Woody wanted,

which made him work even harder

to make that song perfect.

- At the core, you have the
beautiful Woody Guthrie lyrics,

but then you have
this arrangement

that it's so deceptively simple

and it, you know, it's perfect.

I mean, I think Jay once
told me that an element

that Jeff brought to it,

which I think is key
and kind of important,

is the pause.

You know, that little pause
moment may not seem like much,

but it's pretty key to
the feel of that song.

- And what's so great
about "California Stars"

is there's really nothing there.

There's three chords
and they just repeat.

I mean, it's such a great song.

Everybody loves that song.

You gotta remember that
I went to the archive

and chose my songs.

Jay and Jeff went
together to the archive

and chose their songs.

But it has such
resonance with people

for a simple song

with pretty nice,
sweet enough lyrics.

It's not "This land
is Your Land", is it?

- Billy Bragg came up to
us in Arlington Heights

after an outdoor concert.

He said, "When we were
in the archives with Nora

and Jay chose that
song," he said,

"I just told him
basically that was stupid.

That was don't waste one of
your choices on that song."

And he said, "I have
to admit I was wrong."

Yeah, put Jay in a white coat

and he's just
reaching for sound.

You kinda get the feeling

like that's the love
of his life is sounds.

- Let's punch in the same thing

we've been punching it on
all the keyboard tracks.

I wrote this for Billy.

So try to picture
Billy singing it.

- This is, I guess you'd
call it a paperweight

that his dad and I made for him.

These actually were
his baby teeth,

which we embedded
in this acrylic case

to make a paperweight.

Did you know how
"Summerteeth" got its name?

I did not know.

- Okay.

Well, it was the summer that
both Jeff Tweedy and Jay

were having tooth problems.

And every once in a while,

when they were at a concert,

they would ask if
there was a dentist

in the audience.

And so that was the
summer of teeth,

but they called it
"Summerteeth".

Your new album,

it's called "Summerteeth"

and that's a title that
at least we Norwegians

don't understand at all.

It's a title we don't
understand at all either.

There's no hidden English,

Not everything

has to be understood

is what we're learning
with this record.

There was something in the
air when we did "Summerteeth".

I know a lot of people
will never understand it.

Well, one would
be hard pressed to find

a Wilco record that had

more Jay Bennett involvement
than "Summerteeth".

Yeah. I mean,
he's all over it.

I mean, it's like
the Jay Jeff album.

It really is a one of a kind
record in the Wilco canon.

I don't think anything
else quite sounds like it.

And it was really a
Jeff and Jay record.

It's like, Jay's
epitome of what he does.

You know, the arrangements,

the, I don't know, making
the songs glow, I guess.

And I think with "Summerteeth",

I kinda feel that
maybe he was feeling

more comfortable around Jeff

and more like Jeff was
giving him more free rein

to do things.

So I think that was
his kinda record

to kinda really
just take control

and do what he wanted to do.

He's playing
all kinds of instruments

at this point.

And of course, you know,
he's doing the engineering,

figuring out how
they're gonna get

particular sounds to tape.

He ended up, I think
doing a lot of the mixing

on it as well.

They gave him
the keys to the car

and then later revoked the keys.

But while it was
happening, it was magic.

Jay played 90% of
the guitars and the keys.

He played drums on one song.

I think he played bass on three.

And then I played timpani on one

that he played drums on.

But I think we all wanted
to make that record.

He is in that kitchen sink mode

where on any given song,

let's throw as many
textures and sounds and such

at it as we can.

Specifically
exactly what we did,

it was just layers and layers
of pianos and Mellotron.

We actually had a real
Mellotron brought in.

We had two of them at one time.

I think one was
brought in from the BBC

and still had the
"Dr. Who" stuff on it.

And I don't know if Jay
was behind that one,

but I think he bought another
Mellotron that was out in LA

and it had all the
string patches.

And these were the
authentic, real deals.

And that's on the record.

I have a list,
probably 20 keyboards,

six drum kits, 20 guitar amps,

two or three Hammond organs.

I filled the truck and
drove it down to Whitecliff,

Willie Nelson's studio

outside of Austin, Texas.

And that's where we
did "Summerteeth".

None of us wanted to
make the same record twice.

I think when
I reviewed the record,

I compared it to sorta like
a Brian Eno type of approach

to record-making,

completely outside of the
realm of country music.

- You know, so we wanted
to make a pop record.

We really did.

I mean, what
are we gonna pretend

that we didn't grow up
in the '70s listening

to good pop music?

It's ridiculous, you know.

I mean, just 'cause
we all happen to like

good old country
music, you know.

That's great music too.

I mean, I think we
don't really make any,

we don't make those divisions
that those people make,

so we didn't feel like we
were leaving anything behind.

It's never been, you
know, we never said

no more twangy guitars

or no more sounds
in 6/8 or whatever.

- Yeah.

Ready, here we go.

One!

And again, we're out
on the road forever

and we're listening
to stuff in the van.

At that point, I think
we were in buses,

in the bus and you know, we're
getting inspired by stuff.

We're listening to Skip
Spence's masterpiece "Oar".

All that kind of real music.

We'd get inspired by stuff
and just listen to stuff.

We were listening to Beach
Boys' "Smile" a lot too.

The critics talked
about that as being equivalent

to what was

The Beach Boys' "Pet Sounds"

just really kind of
experimenting in the studio.

And there certainly was
quite a bit of that.

It's just that
it was a culmination

of so many tracks.

Once they're all
blended together,

there's just spots where
it's just kinda like

there's eight or nine
different instruments going on

and they just create
one instrument.

And so that's kinda what it
is on a lot of those things.

There's so many layers
of instruments going on

and vocals and masked vocals

and things that are, you can't
quite tell what they are,

but they kinda create
kind of a backdrop.

I'm not afraid to
make musical references

because to some extent my
musical references are archaic.

And I think personally that
the bands, songwriters,

whatever have been
making musical references

for years and years, you know.

And generationally, I'm making
a musical reference there

to like 1978.

That's a long ass time ago.

As every generation goes on,

there's more and
more musical history

to get caught up on.

Over time, and
especially by the recording

of "Yankee Hotel Foxtrot",

did it start wearing
on other band members?

Of course it did

'cause Jay took the reins

and we were recording
Mellotron overdubs

at four in the morning.

And the band would come
back in and be like,

huh, really 18 new tracks
of cello on that song

or whatever it was.

- It was Jay and Jeff
doing whatever they did

to stay up and
they would stay up

till two, three and four
working on this stuff.

And John and I were feeling
kinda left out to be honest,

you know, cause Jay could
jump around on anything.

And so, you know, you
kinda start feeling like

where's my ground, what's
my, how do I belong

in this whatever.

But yeah, it did start to feel

more like the Jeff
and Jay project.

I remember John and I

having a conversation
about that so.

You know, it
wasn't a band anymore.

You got the sense
that these two guys

had sort of closed off
the other guys in the band

and in doing the book, that
became even more underlined.

No one said stop.

So when it comes out
later, "Oh, he overdid it."

Well, he's an artist.

That was his art.

In my opinion, he
didn't overdo it.

He was living it.

- It has elements
of everything we've
done in the past

and it has some new elements.

And I don't completely
understand it yet.

I haven't gotten
away from it enough

to understand what it is.

To me that record is a
big chunk of my life.

It is really hard for me to say

what it is as a
consumer might like.

This record is, you know, to me,

it's a year of my life.

"Yankee Hotel Foxtrot"
took almost this, you know,

using the studio as an
instrument to the Nth degree.

There's like two very different
versions of that record,

for example, that are out there.

If anyone asks me,
I'm not for the remix.

I thought the original one
had elements of the remix,

but still kept the soul
of who the band was.

I remember coming in on the
early demos for that record

hearing some of that stuff

and what the record
ended up sounding like,

you know, I mean,
this stuff had gone

through permutation
after permutation.

- We ultimately recorded "Yankee
Hotel Foxtrot" three times.

You're making music.

We have this there's
lots of songs written,

you're melding two
songs together.

You're rewriting songs.

You're doing seven completely
different takes of one song.

You're doing everything.

You know, you're writing
songs up until the day

you're supposed to be done
and re-tracking and rewriting.

You're doing what
you do. It's fun.

We don't need anybody else.

You know, somehow we're
kinda living on that level,

this dream, like that's
what you dream of

when you're first starting out.

Like, "I wish we
had this giant space

with all our gear
and our own studio

and all the time in the world."

A lot of the
stories I would hear

about kinda those Loft days
was obviously immense talent,

but, you know, egos or
whatever you wanna call it.

And definitely like when
we were working with Jay,

those days his big rule was
check your ego at the door.

So I think to some degree he
was tiptoeing around people

to try to make great music.

Jeff had a sound
in his head for that record

that Jay I think was not
always in agreement with.

And you started to see the
two of them starting to split.

Yeah, Jeff's lyrics,
but behind the scenes,

the avant garde, the
reckless careless,

that was all Jay Bennett.

See Jeff was much
more interested in the album

as a collection of songs

that worked together.

Whereas Jay was all
about, you know,

he had that power
pop thing going on.

Like, you know, I want
a three-minutes single.

Jay was the one who
did all the heavy lifting

on the recording.

He recorded it all.

And he was arranging
half the songs,

he's writing a
bunch of the songs.

That's when I
really started seeing

his mad scientist side,

which was beautiful.

He'd be down on the
ground rewiring something.

Everything was kind of
hodgepodged together,

which is why ultimately I
brought in Chris Brickley.

He knew technically to not
distort or hit tape too hard.

He knew the gear.

But Jay's finesse in the studio

is what made that
record special.

It's a record that means
a lot to a lot of people.

I'm glad I'm part of it.

It's not my favorite one.

And maybe because I know what
was going on history-wise

because I was there
and it was a bad time

for several members
of that band.

Jeff tried to make
Wilco the Jeff Tweedy solo band.

I tried to make Wilco my band.

I obviously was up
against greater odds.

A lot easier for him to take
over the band than for me.

That's it, you know.
Jeff wanted more control.

I had very naturally
gotten more prominence,

more control, more
decision-making authority,

more input on the music
very, very gradually.

And at some point that
like had to plateau.

If it went beyond that,

then it wouldn't be
Jeff's band anymore.

And while it was Wilco,
it was still Jeff's band.

And he needed to kinda
tighten the reins.

So, and then two
things happened.

Glenn Kotche came into
the band, Ken Coomer left.

I was told to help move
Ken out of the Loft.

That was like the
first domino of like,

hey, we're replacing Ken Coomer.

Again, a lot of us were
like, "You're what?"

Well, I was there
for some of it.

I was there for,

we recorded the whole record

and then Jay was working on
that, doing mixing and stuff.

So, yeah and it started
getting competitive

and a little weird.

And then, Jeff started
collaborating very closely

with Jim O'Rourke,

essentially usurping
the role that Jay played

on say "Summerteeth".

- Jay was hurt when Jim
O'Rourke was brought in

to mix the record.

Jay took that personally.

But you know,
I speculate that there

was a distance growing between

because I was fucking
wearing seven different hats

during the making
of that record.

It hampered the
communication in the band

'cause people didn't
know if they were talking

to Jay Bennett the
engineer, the producer,

the musician, the songwriter.

Ultimately did it affect
the record poorly? No.

They needed a fresh set of ears

as Jeff said,

to figure out what
this record was.

And Jim O'Rourke was the guy.

And he and Jeff ended
up working very closely

near the end of that record.

And I think Jay kinda felt
kinda shoved to the side.

That's just how making music is.

There's a lot of people
with a lot of ideas.

At some point, one person's
ideas are gonna take precedence.

I engineered the record.

I mean, O'Rourke was
not there one single day

while we were
recording the record.

You know, what's funny,

even all the weird stuff,
it was already there.

Oh, like backwards pianos
and noise and crap.

Was already there.
He just mixed it.

And there were times when he
kinda straightened it out,

like where he kind
of de-weirdified it.

We had a hell of a record going.

When the film crew moved
in, everything changed.

It's about three

in the morning

and we're either gonna
get something great

or lose our fucking minds.

All these things are
just blaring in here.

That's when it all
kind of like exploded.

So Tony Margarita tells me,
he's the manager of Wilco,

he said, "Oh, hey, next week,
a film crew's coming in.

But don't worry. B roll,
just handheld cameras.

You tell them if
they're in your way,

They won't be in your way."

They show up and start
laying those railroad tracks,

which is awesome.

Again, Sam Jones,
what a talented guy.

The timing was bad.

As their production
manager, bad timing.

Let us finish
recording the record

then come in and
maybe we'll fake it

and walk through like, oh,
pretend we're recording.

We didn't know at the time,

but it killed the dynamic.

I never understood critics

who called it a fly on
the wall documentary.

I don't know how any documentary
could ever pull that off,

but it sure as hell
wasn't the case here.

The fly on the
wall was unnoticed

but we were acutely aware
that there were cameras

following us around.

All of a sudden
making a cool film

became as important as making
a record, making our art.

But again, it's a
phenomenal record.

But my opinion,
yeah, things changed.

Young bands, don't let
a film crew come in

and film you recording a record.

Are you making a movie?

Are you trying to look
cool to your friends?

Or are you bleeding for your art

and making a record.

First Glenn Kotche and then
Jim O'Rourke coming along

kind of becoming
very close to Jeff,

not only on a artistic level
but on a personal level.

And Jay had had that role
for a number of years.

Basically since being there,

Jay Bennett had been Jeff's
closest collaborator.

And in some ways he's
maybe his closest friend.

And I don't think he felt
that way on either level

by the time "Yankee Hotel
Foxtrot" was concluding.

There's just now really
room for two towering geniuses

in one band.

And it just makes for conflict.

And the founder is probably
going to win in that case.

He felt that he had been,

Jeff was trying
to marginalize him

and that his role
was being eclipsed

by these two other guys.

And you know, there's
two sides of the story.

It's petty jealousy

or it's a genuine feeling
of being underappreciated.

Which, who's got
the right story?

Well, I think the truth
probably lies somewhere

in the middle.

Now, granted, there was
real conflict in the air

and they had different
opinions and different views,

but both Jay and
Jeff changed a little

because the film
crew was in the room.

Again, I don't think
Jay was expressing

exactly what he meant to say.

And then in typical Jay fashion,

he wasn't gonna back up.

He was moving forward.

The band is in the studio

trying to figure
out the transition

from "Ashes of American Flags"

into "Heavy Metal Drummer".

Jay Bennett and I argue about
it, I get annoyed with him,

then he gets annoyed with me.

None of this is the
revelatory moment.

I shoot a look at the camera.

It's not something
he did or I did,

or he said or I said.

It's never as obvious as
you think it should be.

There was animosity
and weirdness

with Jay and the band.

They intentionally
made Jay look bad.

And things were getting
a little weird by then.

All of 'em,

Nobody, you didn't have
to go out of your way

to make Jay look possessive.

Like, wait, you gave
me the keys to the car.

By then it was apparent that
we're taking the keys back.

- Whatever. Yeah. I don't know.

I don't know what the
problem is. I don't.

I just want you
to understand me,

like understand why I was-

- angry with you.
- Why is it so important?

I don't have to understand
you all the time actually.

It's okay.

That moment being on film

and then also, if you saw
it in the movie theater,

being literally blown up big

on the movie screen,

turned that into something

that it might not
otherwise have been.

And then I remember
I saw the movie

talking to Mike Hazelrigg,

a drummer from
"Titanic Love Affair",

and he and I kinda
had the same reaction.

Like went to see
it in the theater,

watching it, it's tense.

The scene is coming up.

And then when it
happens, Mike said,

"I just bust out laughing."

I'm like, "Well, that's Jay.

I mean, that's how he
was with all of us."

That was how Jay was.

I thought you wanted it
to be the noise going over

whatever was really on
"Heavy Metal Drummer" there.

See what I'm saying?

I think it's-
I don't want the noise,

I don't want the orchestra to
go into "Heavy Metal Drummer".

It cuts right there.

Right. And I,
what, okay, okay.

Let me try to explain myself.

Jay could be a
frustrating person.

We can all be frustrating people

at different moments.

And Jay was very much
a stickler for detail.

And I would see this
with his fussing

over the particular frequency

or the particular
setting on a compressor

or whatever it might be.

So he's bringing
that same degree

of fussy precision
to this moment

in talking about where does
the particular tape loop

and what's the end and
what's the beginning

and blah, blah, blah.

And I can understand how
that might, you know,

test someone's patience

But can I explain
myself, please?

I didn't know until now
that you wanted it to start

with a little kit...

big kit.

If there had been
no cameras rolling,

when they were having
that discussion,

he mighta still been
in Wilco, right?

Maybe.

What I hear is Jay saying,

I don't need to be right.

I just need you to acknowledge
that there wasn't something

wrong with my thought process.

When you have pieces of footage,

how you choose to
edit that footage,

you can create any
story you wanna create.

And, you know, there
were some things

that were not in
chronological order.

Like the Jeff vomiting had
happened like two days before.

There were some shortcuts taken

in terms of just
presenting material.

And so people took from
those little soundbites

or those little
moments on the film,

like Jeff and Jay are arguing,

or they're not agreeing.

And then Jeff goes and
vomits and they take,

you know, they extrapolate that

into this is what the entire
relationship was like.

And that's just a
very small moment.

All I know is
follow someone around

for three months, they can make
you look any way they want.

That's a fact.

Like I can take you from
the hour you've been here

and quote, and take like
one question of yours

and one answer of mine
and one response of yours

and juggle them all up and then
do some fake reaction shots.

And like all of a sudden
you're a dick, you know.

But I still get the
best line in the movie.

Jeff's on his way down.

Alert the media.

So what I saw happen was

they form this kinship
and they really created

some great music and then Jeff
wanted to move on from it.

And Jay wanted to take
it further I think.

I don't think he wanted
"Yankee Hotel Foxtrot"

the way it was mixed.

That was my impression.

And that was the big break.

- And I'll never forget
the day that Jeff,

and actually Tony
Margarita pulled me aside

and said, "Hey, we're
letting go of Jay Bennett.

If he didn't see it
coming, it's his own fault.

Will you hire a truck

and just get all
his out of the Loft?

You know, find a
new space for him,"

which was ultimately the
Pieholden Suite Studios

on the west side.

"But when we come back
from a long weekend,

we want all of his shit gone."

So that was pushed
into my plate.

Thus started my animosity of
like, what are you thinking?

It's Jay Bennett.

It's about, you know, three
in the morning or something

and I get a phone call
and it is Jay Bennett

telling me that he

has just been
dismissed from Wilco

and he's upset and emotional
over the situation.

There were many reasons

I didn't wanna make music
with Jay Bennett anymore.

For one thing, it wasn't
a healthy situation

for either of us.

We sat down and he said,

"I don't think I can make
music with you anymore."

And I said, "Why?"

And uh...

I'm not sure I ever got an
answer that made any sense.

He liked the work
that he did with them

and thought that he still had

more things to contribute

to their sound and their
success and all of that.

But I think he was
really disappointed.

From the little
snippets he'd reveal,

I know that he
took a lot of pride

in the impact that
he had on Wilco.

And I think he felt
a little bit of pride

in how the critics liked
"Yankee Hotel Foxtrot"

and several of the
reviews really spoke

about his contribution.

He was not one to gloat
or say I told you so,

but I know that he
was proud of that

when all that sorta
came out in the press.

And I think he was just
deeply, deeply disappointed

that he was a part
of something great,

had some personal stake in that,

and a vision of how it
could have been even better.

He was pissed.

He couldn't believe it.

We were all dumbfounded
that he didn't already know

or that he couldn't see
the writing on the wall

that like, hey, if
you don't come back

to be part of this entity

rather than a rogue entity
doing your own thing,

meaning like not slowing down

that you're working
yourself out.

The narrative of "I'm
Trying to Break Your Heart"

is, in part, trying
to provide cover

or show, you know, cause

for why Jay Bennett had to go.

It's a movie. You gotta
have a hero and a villain.

- There was an intention
that I don't understand

the root of it, but when they
were editing the film later,

it appears that certain
things were left out.

And yeah, Jay Bennett was, I
don't know why they did this,

but they made him look bad.

They picked certain footage.

I don't know, was Sam Jones

just trying to make Jeff
look as good as possible?

Which always confused me, man.

It...

You could have made them both
look awesome and artistic

and what they really were.

Did they have to put
the scene in the movie

where they go to the
little small club

and he's playing for
eight people or something?

You know, he was starting over.

Sam also shot footage of Jay
and I performing at The Mint

to incorporate that
into the film as well.

I think we were
performing "My Darling".

And so the camera is
tight up on Jay's face.

You hear my voice in
the background as well

'cause there's a
harmony part going on,

but the visual would
seem to suggest

now Jay's all out
by himself and alone

playing shows in small clubs.

The place was packed.

And then earlier before we
played Ivan Neville played.

That wasn't necessary to me.

That was a low blow.

And I think it hurt him.
I think it hurt him badly.

I didn't think it
was a bad documentary.

I just thought that you
can do a lot in editing

to make a good film.

Like you're about to
edit this documentary

and you could take anything

from anybody's emotional thing

and take it out of context.

And you could take me
looking down at the chair

in an emotional moment,
trying to remember my friend

who's not here anymore

and completely spin
it in a dark way.

And that's what making
good film is about though,

is that turning point
somewhere in the film

that draws you in.

And did I think that
it was unfairly edited?

Yeah, slightly because we
have a super creative person

and that film
didn't even address

the fact that the drummer

was just kicked out of the band.

I told Sam, I was like, "I'm
not gonna be in this movie.

They're not gonna, I
have nothing to hide.

I'm just telling you what I saw

without throwing people
deeply under the bus.

You're asking me questions,

I'm answering them honestly."

And he's like, "Oh,
you'll be in it."

I wasn't in it. I knew
I wasn't gonna be in it.

But I got a free
trip to LA and sushi

and I like sushi.

If I'm honest, I
don't know how long,

how long could the Jay
throwing the deli meat

at the crowd shtick go on.

I mean, how long are
you gonna do that?

We have to explain the rules
of the deli tray game now.

Anything that we throw out
from this lovely deli tray

provided for us by Irving Plaza

can be thrown back at us.

If it didn't come off
that fucking deli tray,

it can't come back at us, okay?

How long is Jay gonna remain

the far more articulate,

educated Bob Stinson of that?

You know, how long are
you gonna be the genius

who's the Clown Prince as well.

- I think that it was inevitable

that they went their own ways.

Why?

Because of the strength
of their musical talent.

But you know, whatever.

You know, I don't have to
tell you that I was hurt,

there was hurt and
anger and fear.

I don't have to tell you that.

Of course there was.

It's like asking someone,
"How was your divorce?"

"Oh, totally cool.

Ah, just totally cool, yeah.

We just talked and said,
'Hey, let's get divorced.'

And we're like,
'All right, cool.'"

There's no such thing
as a happy divorce.

There's such a thing
as a happier divorce,

but you know, the
second it goes down,

it's not happy.

- When we were trying to
express something in "Billions",

that idea just occurred to us

that a good way to explain

a certain kind of relationship

and what happens when
something goes missing from it,

would be to talk about
Tweedy and Bennett.

Do you like Wilco?

- Yeah.

Yes. I love the one
with "Jesus Don't Cry".

- Yeah, me too.

Because in that one, Jeff
Tweedy and Jay Bennett

had found in each other
a perfect mind meld.

They communicated on a
level few ever reach.

But I don't think there's
any argument to be made

that the first Nonesuch record

is the record that Wilco
will be remembered for.

- But the thing about
Wilco in that moment is

it was never that good again.

Bennett left the group.

Somehow, even though
each had to know

the other made him better,

they just couldn't find a
way to keep going together.

- Did the band break up?

- No. Even without
Bennett, Wilco is Wilco.

It kept trucking along.

And Bennett?

He died.

But this is the
second in a long line

of ex-girlfriend songs.

Woo!

Bitter, minor key.

About 10 years ago

I had a breakup

that I really thank God for

'cause I got a lot
of songs out of it.

It just, it redeemed the
whole relationship though.

You're not gonna believe it,

but you gotta believe it.

We said, "Look,
I am Jay Bennett.

I will never finish a record
unless you give me a deadline.

I know me. I know me.

Give me a god damn fucking
deadline and I'll make it.

Don't give me a deadline,
I won't make it."

He gave us a deadline.

He did the math, the release
date came out that day,

end of story.

- And as we're getting
close to put things out,

we see the announcement
that that is the date

that "Yankee Hotel
Foxtrot" will come out.

We're like, "Well,

we couldn't have planned
that any better."

But we didn't actually plan it.

It's just that that's
how it happened.

But because it happened
that way, like, well,

that's fortunate
because, you know,

people covering "Yankee"
are probably gonna do

a sidebar on us and
it's gonna, you know,

generate a little extra press.

I mean, I'm not
gonna say that it's not

a nice little coincidence,
but it is a coincidence.

Jay always joked,

"Hey, I had two records come out

on the same day.

There's probably very few
people who've had that."

Jay had a bunch of songs in
various stages of completion.

We started recording songs.

And at the time, we
weren't thinking of it

as that we're recording these
to eventually make a record.

It was more just something
to occupy our time.

I've often said that it
was also about the fact

that it was cheaper
than therapy.

Anytime I had time
off from Wilco touring

or Wilco recording, I
mean, I think Ed and I

did more kinda
sitting on the porch,

learning how to
harmonize together

and sing together really well

than any other time in my life.

It was actually some of the
happiest times of my life

were right after I met
Ed and found somebody

I could just, we'd just sit
there with acoustic guitars

and play old Louvin
Brothers songs and harmonize

and stuff like that.

And we found out that our voices

melded together really well.

So we started recording
whenever we had the chance.

We'd find some times like, oh,
then we'll work on this song

or that song.

So he came in and he brought
boxes and boxes of tapes.

And literally there
would be a song

and there would be
four drum tracks.

There'd be four bass parts,

there'd be four
tambourine parts.

There'd be four of everything.

Like he was just obsessive.

Like, he'd wanna
cover all his tracks,

but it was just like,

okay we're gonna be
spending most of our time

sifting through this stuff
and editing this stuff down.

It was too big of a
project for me alone

so we had to bring in

my other business partner
at the time, Ken Sluiter.

And so we had two studios
working on dividing the album up

'cause there just wasn't enough
time to meet this deadline.

Most reviews tended to like it.

I know that there
were some who felt

that Jay's kitchen sink
element was a bit too much.

I mean, even for me
looking back at it now,

I can buy a little bit of that.

I mean, when I listen
to that record today,

I think if we'd had
a little extra time

and we would have just pulled
a few other things back

to create just a little
bit more dynamic movement

at certain parts, you know,

it would be even better.

I bought this really cool set

of Deagan Bells,
Chicago company.

They're basically orchestra
bells that you can play

with a small keyboard and
it triggers the bells.

And it was kinda my new fun toy

so perhaps it got overused.

When you say stop, that was
my job on "Palace at 4am".

I wish I had had a little
more power with that

because I think
three or four songs

could have easily been
taken off that record.

I think a lot more
of those songs

could have been stripped down,

but we did what we could.

He gave me a lot of leeway

and I think he trusted me,

which I really appreciate.

Tell me about "Talk to Me".

That's got a good story.

I had recorded a relatively
lame demo version of it

and due to some digital
glitch, it played really fast.

There's some sampling rate
error and the version he got

was all sped up.

And I was like, "Oh, I'm sorry.

Let me send you a copy
where it isn't all sped up."

And he's like, "No, man,
it's cool."

So the tempo that
you hear it at now

is the tempo that Ed
first heard it at.

And, of course, my voice sounded
like Mickey Mouse sounded.

By the time we had finished

the tour for the first album,

I think Jay felt a need

to be a bit away from me.

And I think it's because
during the end portion

of those tours,

all the usual rock 'n' roll
excesses were coming to the fore

with the drugs and
too much drinking

and all that kinda stuff.

It's about one o'clock and
they'd go off for an encore,

come back on.

And Jay's standing
at mic by himself

and he says, "Hey,
it's my anniversary."

Everybody's like, "Hey,
happy anniversary, Jay."

And he says, "I think
I'm gonna call my wife.

She's back home in
Arlington Heights."

And he gets out his cell phone

and you hear, "Hi honey.

I'm on stage in St. Louis.

Happy anniversary."

And you hear nothing.

It's like, "Yeah, yeah."

And he's holding the
cell phone to the PA

and then you hear click.

This despondent look
washes over Jay's face.

"Oh, I think I just
fucked up really bad."

And I can't remember
what song you guys did,

but it was something really sad.

And Jay was like, his voice
is croaking at that point.

And I think that
was the end of it.

And it's still one of the
strangest shows I've ever seen.

It's really hard to describe
the intensity of it.

It's just this
beautiful mess going on.

And there was a lot of humor.

The Edward and Jay comedy show
was at its best that night,

but the crowd had no
idea what to make of it.

The vibe in the crowd was
like, what are we seeing?

These guys are insane.

But they played great.

They played really great

amidst all this chaos.

I know he went through a period

where he was committed to kinda
playing everything himself.

And so I think while
as great as he was,

you lose that spark
of collaboration.

I think, you know, some
of his greatest works,

there was always at least
one other person involved.

And it was really,

I think some of it reflects
kinda where his mood was

at that time.

Things were stark and dark

and you know, the world
was a not a friendly place.

And so I think some
of that comes through

in those songs.

I think he started
leaning on things

in his depression

that ultimately were
gonna contribute

to the downfall of his health.

I mean, let's be honest.

Jay didn't start drinking again

until after the film came out

because it had
humiliated him so much.

So ended up becoming this
self-fulfilling prophecy.

Like this film comes out,

portrays you as a fuck-up,

and then you're so humiliated

that you then end up
turning to substances.

I think he was in
a really dark place,

but he knew it and he was
kind of digging into it.

I mean, digging into the
dissolution of his marriage.

- He was definitely using music

as a way to express some
very difficult things

that he was wrestling with.

You know, the story
behind that song

is the lyrics were written out
on a door, all in one thing

and that door used
to be in the studio.

When I was kinda mixing
my band's record with him,

we would mix all day

but Jay was very addicted
to working on music nonstop.

And my band was, you know,
he was very accommodating.

He would just let us
crash there or whatever.

So we mixed all day on "Where
the Moon Came From" song.

Then the band kinda crashed out

in the corner of
this huge warehouse.

Now, we come into the
control room the next morning

and there's all these
instruments spread everywhere.

And then there's an entire
song written on the door

and when Jay wakes
up and he's like,

"Oh, this song came to me
in the middle of the night.

And you know, I just
had to work on it."

So he just stayed up
the rest of the night.

That song has kinda always
been there, eating at me.

And I think one day I
was thinking about it

and just how, how
beautiful the lyrics are.

Like, it's a classic
example of just like how

he just tells this
story so visually

and so beautifully.

The other thing that cracked
me up about that song,

I remember I was like, okay,

I'm gonna learn this song

and I started writing
out the chords.

And the chorus

is D-E-A-D.

Whether he did it
on purpose or not,

and I think he did,
that's just so Jay

to write a murder ballad
with the chorus chords

being D-E-A-D.

It's beautiful.

The title of the record,
"The Magnificent Defeat",

speaks a little bit
to Jay's mindset

and to the mindset of a
lot of other musicians

that I would put in a
similar category to Jay,

like Paul Westerberg
or, you know.

Some of these guys who
seem to have this thing

where they almost know

like this would do it,

but I don't, not quite sure

I want it to happen.

It's almost like a
self-defeating prophecy.

I mean, one of the
things I very typically do

is the second I write
a song, I record it.

How do you know
what a record's done

or even when a song is done?

I remember actually Jim Scott,

who mixed a couple
of Wilco records

gave me the best answer that
I've ever heard to this,

I think I read an interview
once where Prince said this

that, "If you are
trying to decide

if a given overdub

or instrument
should be in a song,

you should be able to
listen to the whole song

with just the lead vocal
and that instrument

and it should be satisfying."

The original plan
was to release it

with a, there was a
sticker on it that said

something like "New album from",

I think the language
was "The sonic architect

behind 'Yankee Foxtrot'."

And that got into
the Warner's system

and there were objections.

- We weren't real close
during that dark period.

No. And it was...

I think Jay kinda pushed
away a lotta people

and I don't really
wanna speculate too much

about what he was feeling.

I know there was, you
know, it was difficult.

He was going through a divorce
then at about the same time

and struggling with,
wrestling with his own demons.

And we would talk periodically

and most of the time
he'd seem normal

so I didn't see a
lot of the darkness,

but I know secondhand

there was plenty
of it to go around.

For me, he unlocked
sort of that idea

of the studio as an instrument.

This is a dying art.

This was the last
gasp of putting,

people still do do this,

but you know, putting the mix up

and the mixes there,

and when you stop, it's over.

Like, you can't
just recall that.

Even if you take all your notes,

you might get pretty close,

but it's like, it's
being in that moment.

You know, everybody
being at the board

like, okay, you grab
those two buttons

and then you're gonna like
slowly twist this there

like right at the right...

And you're playing
the studio, you know.

That's something that
I had never really seen

or done nearly with
that kind of complexity

of orchestration and stuff.

It was so inspiring.

So we would write
and do the deal

where you would
go to in the Loft,

a big elevator chute and
drop a microphone down

and put a snare drum in
the bottom and hit it.

And that kinda stuff
we, we would still do.

We would experiment.

Fucking beautiful reverb.

And you have so many
places to mic it.

I wanna do a gospel record here.

We were rehearsing in
the kitchen of the studio

and he's like, "This is
where we need to record it."

And so we recorded one of
the tracks on the record

in the kitchen.

I think that Jay
definitely influenced us

in certain ways when we were
working on the next record,

certainly in terms of
microphone placements

and not being afraid
to use the room

and different parts of
the room or the building.

When a band has its own studio,

and you can go if
I hit that radiator

with a metal pipe

and we slow it down on tape,

you know, there's all
kinda tricks you can do.

That was fun.

Those are some

of my favorite
kinda instruments,

the ones that you hear
them and you're like,

"What the hell is that?"

And sometimes to
tell you the truth,

if it's been a year and a
half since I worked on a song,

I listen back to a track and
I go, "What the hell is that?"

He introduced a
lotta toy sounds.

Are you aware of that?

And I remember,
I remember one summer,

he was at our house
for about a month

and he and I went
out garage saling

mainly 'cause he
was picking up toys.

And then he'd pick up the
toy and work the sound.

- Yeah, I mean, you know
like this little piano.

After he passed away,

somebody gave it to
me and said like,

"Yeah, he put that
on some records."

Like anything that
would make a noise.

But that era where I
really spent a lot of time

and hung out and cut my teeth

it was kind of on
the west side here.

It was very similar to
the Wilco Loft style

of just a very large
open warehouse space

with a lot of this gear
and a lot more gear

just spread everywhere.

So it's like, when you
talk about the kitchen,

the kitchen was never
just the kitchen.

That was maybe the
drums got cut in there.

You know, we're talking
about 5,000 square feet

of recording space,

the hallway, the elevator
shaft, the bathroom.

I mean, there was, yeah, it was
all acoustic spaces for Jay.

My old studio is
set up so that, you know,

basically everybody could
sleep there and live there.

There was a kitchen
and everything,

and some makeshift bedrooms

and air mattresses
and stuff like that.

- Yeah. So this is one
of the studio favorites,

an SG that I feel like shows
up in live pictures of Jay

from time to time,
although he had a couple.

One of them was smashed
and I donated that

to the Rock Hall

and that was infamously
smashed somewhere.

But this is just a favorite.

He was such an all
or nothing person.

It was like, cool, we
can have this space,

but it can be a safe place.

It's not, it doesn't
have to be insane.

It could be a creative space

that's not excessive
and dangerous, you know?

And I was invested in that

and we got it to a
really cool place.

So when he passed away,
it was kinda like,

well, we've lost Jay,

but we don't have to lose
this thing that we started

or that he started
and I believed in

and still believe in

as this creative space

that can have a lot of power.

And he opened it
up to other people.

Like there's a whole
group of us who,

we got to grow up-
- We all know everybody.

- playing these guitars because
Jay shared them with us.

He wasn't just like,
I'm not gonna trust

these idiots to
like go in my studio

and play my guitars.

He got that guitars
are meant to be played.

They're meant to be shared.

Like, I remember playing

with a Mellotron once
with Jay and having it,

we were just laying
the string part down

and I remember it
catching on fire.

The power transformer
just started burning

and there was smoke and flames.

And Jay just
started cracking up.

I mean, he was like laughing

and we just kept
playing and kept playing

until it just
stopped making sound.

And it's just hilarious
to look back on.

I mean, he didn't freak out
and we just left it recording.

And I think maybe in
the back of his mind,

he was kinda like, I
wonder if we're gonna

be able to capture the sound

of this Mellotron dying on tape

and maybe I've never
heard that before.

- So this is the recording book

that Jay wrote that he
always talked about.

It's more like writing his
thoughts on recording down,

most of which are very
interesting and relevant.

"Good instrument. Good room.

Good mic, good pre.

Done."

"Don't over fuck."

"AB to AB or not to AB."

"Breaks in long sessions.

Talk about shit
other than music."

"If it makes you
cry, it's the take,

but let them do one more."

"Save opinions,
pick your battles."

I believe a lot of his
solo music was cathartic.

I also believe that
in the next few years

it would have been
more uplifting,

but it was sorta
like he needed to get

that part of it
out of his system.

- Here's the difference

between like, yeah, some
Wilco era stuff and Jay solo.

And this is where, you know,
when you wanna talk about,

oh, it was, you know.

Was Jay this talent force
that people think he was

or was he not?

Wilco, you've got, I don't
know, four or five, six players,

some of the greatest
players in the world.

You've got a studio staff.

You've got a record producer,
you've got a record label.

You've got engineers, you've
got assistant engineers,

you got editors.

You got somebody to go get
the beer and the cigarettes.

You got somebody making
sure a pizza shows up.

Jay's solo records, not to
say all of them obviously,

Ed Burch worked on them a lot.

Mike Hagler, who you
guys just spoke with,

hung out a lot.

But some of these records

we're talking about
it was Jay alone

at wearing every hat,
playing every instrument,

running all the gear.

You know, you're talking about,

you're talking about
one man wearing

a lotta hats and, and it being
some very impressive music.

There's two things that come out

in the media,

after Jay's death of the
typical schmuck musician.

A, that it was drug-related,

B, that he was just some
poverty-stricken dude

who couldn't even
afford health insurance.

Neither of which were true.

He was planning
to get the hip surgery

and he felt it was gonna be
like totally life-changing.

Jay had gained some weight

and that his weight was
giving him joint problems.

And so he was
wearing a pain patch.

But at this time,

none of us really knew
what that patch was

that was gonna, you know...

It's a patch you
put on your body

and it shoots medicine
into your body.

It was fentanyl.

The issue was because
of the things that he had done

over the years with
his stage gymnastics

and blah, blah, blah

and had previously

had some treatment

done for an injury,

the insurance company saw that
as a pre-existing condition.

And so they weren't going to
cover the hip replacement.

It's just crazy timing.

The timing of his death
is that a bunch of folks

had organized a 20-year music
reunion here in Champaign.

And Jay was communicating
with us at that time.

He was on the page and
he was communicating,

but he was being vague about...

Well, basically he never
said he was gonna play.

Like it wasn't in the
plans at all for him to,

he wasn't booked.

- And so I had to go
over, borrow some drums

from a buddy who actually lived

in the same little
courtyard as Jay

over in these
little like villas.

It's like 11:00 at night

and I'm loading drums
out of my buddy's place

that Thursday and I
see Jay's light on,

but I know he'd been
in quite a bit of pain

'cause of his hip and stuff.

And I was like gonna
go knock on his door

and just say, hey,
'cause I hadn't seen him

in a month or two.

And I was like, ah, I
know it's kinda late.

I know he's kinda
feeling crappy.

Like I'll see him
tomorrow at the party,

there was like a kickoff
party at the bar next door.

- You know, the night he passed,

we thought he was gonna
show up and play songs

and it was disappointing
when he didn't.

- We wanted to see him.

You know, we wanted
him to come out

and he lived in Urbana
and we were all there.

And then we're gonna
show up at his house

and he begged us not to.

Another friend of ours,
Alex showed me a text message,

this really long text message.

He was basically saying like,

"Hey Jay, just giving
you a heads up.

People are, it's
winding down here.

People are full of beer

and it's getting to like
torches and pitchforks mode.

People are wanting to
come march on your house

and come make you
hang out with us."

He wrote this really
long message to Alex

and "Hey look, man, just,
I'm really in a lot of pain

from my hip.

I just need to get a
good night's sleep.

Just please, please, please,

don't come over here,
respect my wishes.

I'll see you all
tomorrow at the show."

- And then we were like,

all right, we've got
to get Jay to come out.

We knew he was still
looking at the page

'cause we saw him like, I
dunno if he was liking things

or whatever it was.

So we're like, let's make a sign

and we'll post it on the
page and he'll see it.

So that's why we did it.

So we went to Walgreens
from our hotel

and bought markers.

We bought poster
board and we made it.

So we held it up and
we put it on the page

and we were hoping
he would see it.

But he had already died.

John Gerard called us.

I think it was like
one in the afternoon,

something like that and told us.

Yeah, it was, that was hard.

I remember the
morning I heard that.

I was in disbelief, you know.

You never wanna hear
about a friend dying.

It signals your own mortality.

And then you start
thinking about their family

and, man, you know, how
does that affect his family?

And my heart went out
deeply to Jay's family.

We got out of church

and I usually left my
cell phone in the car.

Usually after church,
when we got into the car,

there would be a
message from Jay

just saying, you know,
you're probably in church,

but I wanted you to know
we're having a good day

or, you know, a brief message
or I'm gonna call dad later

'cause I need to check on
some electrical problem

or something at the house.

We got in the car and
there was a message

but it was from Kate's mom.

So that's how we found out.

But I hadn't really processed it

until I was at the Rock
& Roll Hall of Fame.

And I, they have a bunch
of guitars on display there

and I came around the
corner and there was his,

and it really hit me then

to see his instrument
in a glass case

and to think that he
wouldn't be playing anymore.

- He never wrote "Web in Front".

He never recorded
"Web in Front".

He never recorded

"Flashes and Cables", you know.

Like, he's ah,

like he wanted to be,

he wanted his songs
to be as good as that.

Or maybe you wanted 'em better.

I think quite frankly,
his songs were,

you know, the songs
that he worked on.

Yeah, I really,

I feel like even if
he had lived to be 90,

he probably would have
had that his whole life.

And that was probably
why he was such a genius.

He was a brilliant man,
you know, a brilliant artist.

And I think he had a lot to say

in terms of music,
in terms of poetry.

It's just a real shame

that he wasn't able to
stick around longer.

I think he could have
influenced another generation

of musicians,
songwriters, thinkers.

On a personal level, what I
miss is the random phone call.

Once in awhile that smile inside

when the cell phone
would say it was Jay

and I didn't know
what was coming

but it was always some
random question, you know.

"Hey, do you remember
from physics class,

does the distance that
I put the microphone

from the speaker should
that be different

with the wavelength of the
sound that I wanna emphasize?"

And I could just imagine
him with a yellow legal pad

kinda sketching out a formula
from high school physics

and wanting to make sure
that he got it right.

But again, that was that
curiosity and tinkering

and that's, you know, to
the end, that's something

we had in common.

- Had we gotten news of his
death two or three years before,

people may not have
been as surprised.

When we got news

of his death in May of 2009,

it was definitely a
shock because everybody

who had interaction
with him at that time

and saw how he was
doing in his life,

I mean, aside from the
fact that he was in pain

from the hip issue,

his head was in a better spot
than it had been in years.

The beginning of his
life was very happy.

And I was very happy that the
end of his life was so happy.

I mean, and I'm not saying
that he had horrible times

in between, but you know, ups
and downs like everybody did.

And it was, I didn't
want him to die,

but I was glad that he died

at one of the, probably the
happiest time of his life.

I know that when he passed away,

not only did we
have the material

for "Kicking at
the Perfumed Air",

there's 60 or 70, maybe
a hundred other songs

at some degree of preparation.

There's hundreds of sheets
of paper and pizza boxes

and sheets of cardboard
with lyrics written on them

in a Sharpie and doors and
bits of music and sound.

And you know, the day
that he put together

a PVC pipe and duct
tape to make a drum set

and just to see what kinda
sound he could get out of it,

crazy experimentation
that survives

and may never be heard again.

But I think from,

he was in a place where
he was enjoying life.

He wasn't, you know,
he was moving forward.

He was not dwelling on the past.

And he was doing what
he always wanted to do

which was just making
the music better.

Sort of take like
every Hollywood movie

where there's a
really smart guy.

Maybe there's a
MacGyver type guy

or where the guys from Apollo 13

who figured out how
to fix the spaceship

and then mix in
some Brian Wilson

who hears everything in his head

and wants to coax those sounds

and will put a mic on anything.

And then throw in
a little bit of,

I don't know, the Three Stooges.

Mix in just a little
bit of kinda sadness.

I mean, what I saw
in Jay was I think

a lot of what drove him was

he wanted to be the
best and he wanted to be

the center of attention.

And he wanted people to like him

and he wanted people
to respect him.

He wanted to do something
a little different,

a little better, a little
cooler, a little whatever.

He wanted you to understand him,

why he was doing it.

Now it's a audience
participation time.

Do you want me to do
a guitar solo or not?

Totally up to you.

That was kind of tepid

so I'm thinking I'm
not gonna do one.

Do it!

Do it, go on.

You know the funniest
thing about Jay?

And this has nothing
to do with anything.

When you live on the
road with somebody,

you find out who they are.

He had the smallest feet of
any man I've ever been around.

And he thought I was
like Bozo the Clown.

I wear 14s. So I
have large feet.

He wore a seven.

And I would take those
little shoes off.

He always had those black,
what were they like work shoes.

I'm sure he got them
at a thrift store

like he and I did everything.

But I'd look at those shoes

and I was like, "Man,
these are sevens

and you look normal.

Why are your feet
so small, man?"

Used to blow my mind.

He would just say, "I
just have small feet."

I was like, "Wow."

I wonder if his
dad had small feet,

his family had small.

That has nothing to do
with anything by the way.