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1
00:00:09,718 --> 00:00:11,512
Yours
actually came out good.
2
00:00:11,553 --> 00:00:12,638
Yours came out nice.
3
00:00:12,679 --> 00:00:13,931
I was like, "Um--"
4
00:00:13,972 --> 00:00:16,141
I was
surprised yours came out...
5
00:00:16,183 --> 00:00:17,476
Oh...
6
00:00:17,518 --> 00:00:20,395
Lemme see, turn?
7
00:00:21,355 --> 00:00:22,648
You do have to dye
your hair, though.
8
00:00:22,689 --> 00:00:23,982
Mm-hm.
9
00:00:24,024 --> 00:00:25,692
-I see a lotta...
-White?
10
00:00:25,734 --> 00:00:27,528
Yeah, you're
salt 'n' pepper now.
11
00:00:29,738 --> 00:00:30,739
Hello
12
00:00:30,781 --> 00:00:33,325
-Hi, Orna!
-Hey.
13
00:00:33,367 --> 00:00:34,701
You're gonna
ask us how are we, right?
14
00:00:34,743 --> 00:00:35,702
How are you?
15
00:00:37,579 --> 00:00:39,873
Um...
16
00:00:39,915 --> 00:00:42,376
Well, we finally
had sex.
17
00:00:42,417 --> 00:00:47,464
upbeat theme music
18
00:00:51,927 --> 00:00:53,595
-You did?!
19
00:00:53,637 --> 00:00:54,763
We did, yeah, we
took your advice.
20
00:00:54,805 --> 00:00:55,889
-Great!
-Yeah.
21
00:00:55,931 --> 00:00:57,432
Yeah, you lit some
fire up our butt.
22
00:00:57,474 --> 00:00:59,226
That wasn't even, like, advice;
it didn't feel like advice.
23
00:00:59,268 --> 00:01:01,395
-It's like "Go do it now."
-That was a prescription.
24
00:01:01,436 --> 00:01:02,521
Yeah, yeah, literally.
25
00:01:02,563 --> 00:01:03,313
"Like, you
need to go, like...
26
00:01:03,355 --> 00:01:06,149
Like, when you leave here, you
need to just go home and pack
27
00:01:06,191 --> 00:01:06,900
your bags."
28
00:01:08,443 --> 00:01:09,736
So I think I did the hardest
thing I could ever
29
00:01:09,778 --> 00:01:11,321
have done.
I felt like I sold my--
30
00:01:11,363 --> 00:01:13,073
-Oh, she did.
-My soul to the Devil.
31
00:01:13,115 --> 00:01:14,741
Okay.
32
00:01:14,783 --> 00:01:16,743
-I called my mother--
-Wow.
33
00:01:16,785 --> 00:01:19,746
And I asked her to come stay
at our house with her mom--
34
00:01:19,788 --> 00:01:21,540
Yeah, that a big move.
35
00:01:21,582 --> 00:01:23,709
So that we could do
this, like we can go away.
36
00:01:23,750 --> 00:01:25,085
Very interesting.
37
00:01:25,127 --> 00:01:26,587
That I called
her, right?
38
00:01:26,628 --> 00:01:29,590
That the whole session
started with your moms.
39
00:01:29,631 --> 00:01:31,425
I mean, I don't know
yet what to make of it,
40
00:01:31,466 --> 00:01:33,135
but it's interesting.
41
00:01:33,176 --> 00:01:34,636
That's how
it all started.
42
00:01:34,678 --> 00:01:35,762
That's, like, a
big step for me--
43
00:01:35,804 --> 00:01:37,222
Yes.
44
00:01:37,264 --> 00:01:38,599
-To, you know--
-Very big.
45
00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:39,766
'Cause I was just
like, "Crap."
46
00:01:39,808 --> 00:01:41,602
-Mm-hm.
-So we went away.
47
00:01:41,643 --> 00:01:43,604
It was, like,
beautiful mountain views,
48
00:01:43,645 --> 00:01:45,397
and it just felt
so calming for me.
49
00:01:45,439 --> 00:01:46,940
Yeah.
50
00:01:46,982 --> 00:01:48,650
And I was just like, "Oh...
Let's see if she'll wake up."
51
00:01:48,692 --> 00:01:50,402
She was like, "Honey,"
and I was like, "Oh, okay."
52
00:01:50,444 --> 00:01:52,154
We got
into it real quick.
53
00:01:52,195 --> 00:01:55,782
But, you know, this is
what I was hoping for, right?
54
00:01:55,824 --> 00:01:57,618
That you would
allow yourselves to,
55
00:01:57,659 --> 00:02:00,454
like, get over this
kind of phobic block,
56
00:02:00,495 --> 00:02:01,913
and first, just connect.
57
00:02:01,955 --> 00:02:02,956
-Mm-hm.
-Yeah.
58
00:02:02,998 --> 00:02:04,124
We were enjoying ourselves,
59
00:02:04,166 --> 00:02:04,791
but we were probably,
like, in our heads.
60
00:02:04,833 --> 00:02:05,959
Mm-hm.
61
00:02:06,001 --> 00:02:07,127
You know,
because subconsciously,
62
00:02:07,169 --> 00:02:08,378
that was, like, in
the back of my mind--
63
00:02:08,420 --> 00:02:09,880
Mm-hm.
64
00:02:09,921 --> 00:02:12,049
Like, "Oh my God, is this
gonna be good enough for her?"
65
00:02:12,090 --> 00:02:13,467
Mm-hm.
66
00:02:13,508 --> 00:02:16,136
Like, I tried to stay, like,
in the moment, and I did.
67
00:02:16,178 --> 00:02:17,471
No, you were.
68
00:02:17,512 --> 00:02:20,390
I did, I was in the
moment, I was present.
69
00:02:20,432 --> 00:02:22,476
And it was good.
70
00:02:22,517 --> 00:02:24,770
I did tell her we've had...
71
00:02:24,811 --> 00:02:26,772
to me, more...
72
00:02:26,813 --> 00:02:28,398
just, like, eventful sex.
73
00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:29,816
Mm-hm.
74
00:02:29,858 --> 00:02:31,652
But I understood it
just needed to be done.
75
00:02:31,693 --> 00:02:32,402
Right.
76
00:02:32,402 --> 00:02:34,154
It just needed to be--
the bandaid needed to be
77
00:02:34,196 --> 00:02:35,781
ripped off.
78
00:02:35,822 --> 00:02:37,324
I think I was also trying to
get emotionally into it and I
79
00:02:37,366 --> 00:02:38,867
couldn't get
emotionally into it.
80
00:02:38,909 --> 00:02:39,868
Mm-hm.
81
00:02:39,910 --> 00:02:41,662
Which was slightly
frustrating for me.
82
00:02:41,703 --> 00:02:43,872
Yeah, but then you're
putting so much pressure--
83
00:02:43,914 --> 00:02:46,667
Both of you are
putting so much pressure.
84
00:02:46,708 --> 00:02:50,212
I mean, slowly,
slowly, small steps, like...
85
00:02:50,253 --> 00:02:51,505
Yeah.
86
00:02:51,546 --> 00:02:54,049
But the
emotional aspect of it...
87
00:02:54,091 --> 00:02:55,133
I'm disconnected.
88
00:02:55,175 --> 00:02:57,511
-Mm-hm.
-And...
89
00:02:57,552 --> 00:03:00,681
it had nothing to do with her.
She's-- it was-- it was all me.
90
00:03:00,722 --> 00:03:01,473
Yeah.
91
00:03:01,473 --> 00:03:04,059
Where I'm like-- I don't have
the emotional connection to it.
92
00:03:04,101 --> 00:03:05,769
Have you ever?
93
00:03:05,811 --> 00:03:07,646
-I don't think I have.
-Mm-hm.
94
00:03:07,688 --> 00:03:09,106
I think it's just always--
and I think it's always just
95
00:03:09,147 --> 00:03:10,649
been an activity.
96
00:03:10,691 --> 00:03:12,651
-Yeah.
-It's like it-- there's a goal--
97
00:03:12,693 --> 00:03:14,861
You need something that's
outside of you, in a way.
98
00:03:14,903 --> 00:03:16,446
Yeah!
99
00:03:16,488 --> 00:03:18,657
Like, even though I
have all these desires,
100
00:03:18,699 --> 00:03:21,284
there's no emotional
connection to these desires.
101
00:03:21,326 --> 00:03:22,869
Mm-hm.
102
00:03:22,911 --> 00:03:25,288
My emotional
connection is with her,
103
00:03:25,330 --> 00:03:29,209
and I just need to find a way
to mesh the emotion and the
104
00:03:29,251 --> 00:03:33,046
activity and just...
105
00:03:33,088 --> 00:03:34,840
all be her.
106
00:03:34,881 --> 00:03:38,468
That makes a lot of sense,
but there's a lot more that you
107
00:03:38,510 --> 00:03:43,557
could be doing with each other
that will help you to reconnect.
108
00:03:44,224 --> 00:03:46,059
Okay, so...
109
00:03:46,101 --> 00:03:47,561
what are you talking about?
110
00:03:47,602 --> 00:03:49,104
I'm talking about, like,
just exploring each other,
111
00:03:49,146 --> 00:03:50,731
how it feels.
112
00:03:50,772 --> 00:03:54,192
I mean, I don't know, focus on
a particular sensation and just
113
00:03:54,234 --> 00:03:58,280
stay there, and connect...there.
114
00:03:58,321 --> 00:04:00,407
-Hm.
-We could try.
115
00:04:00,449 --> 00:04:03,452
-Just be present.
-Yeah.
116
00:04:03,493 --> 00:04:05,746
Hm.
117
00:04:08,123 --> 00:04:09,750
Can I send you some literature?
118
00:04:09,791 --> 00:04:11,168
Yeah!
119
00:04:11,209 --> 00:04:12,836
Absolutely, 'cause my
wheels are turning right now.
120
00:04:12,878 --> 00:04:15,505
I will send you a
book, maybe even two.
121
00:04:15,547 --> 00:04:17,924
Okay.
122
00:04:18,175 --> 00:04:19,885
-Are you blushing?
-I'm not.
123
00:04:19,926 --> 00:04:21,511
Yes, you...
124
00:04:21,553 --> 00:04:23,513
I'm not, but I just like
the energy we have right now,
125
00:04:23,555 --> 00:04:26,266
so...
I'm enjoying it.
126
00:04:26,308 --> 00:04:29,895
-Mm-hm.
-I'm staying present, so...
127
00:04:29,936 --> 00:04:33,607
cool funky music
128
00:05:00,842 --> 00:05:03,136
Let's talk
about India and Dale.
129
00:05:03,178 --> 00:05:06,932
I'm looking for a language
of how to help expand the
130
00:05:06,973 --> 00:05:08,725
conversation with them.
131
00:05:08,767 --> 00:05:10,310
Can I
just ask a question?
132
00:05:10,352 --> 00:05:12,312
Has your whiteness
been named with them?
133
00:05:12,354 --> 00:05:13,522
In what way?
134
00:05:13,563 --> 00:05:15,524
Did they ever
challenge you about it?
135
00:05:15,565 --> 00:05:17,776
No.
136
00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,153
I want them to.
137
00:05:20,195 --> 00:05:21,822
-Mm.
-How?
138
00:05:21,863 --> 00:05:24,157
I think it would
be inquiring deeper about
139
00:05:24,199 --> 00:05:25,242
that difference.
140
00:05:25,283 --> 00:05:26,660
Yeah.
141
00:05:26,701 --> 00:05:28,995
Because I think they're
showing themselves but...
142
00:05:29,037 --> 00:05:32,958
I'm-- there's
obviously more layers to them.
143
00:05:32,999 --> 00:05:37,170
Like, she tells the story about
getting into an argument about
144
00:05:37,212 --> 00:05:40,841
Sandra Bland, and I kept
thinking about how she feels so
145
00:05:40,882 --> 00:05:43,343
much pressure to live
up to Dale's standards.
146
00:05:43,385 --> 00:05:45,011
Mm-hm.
147
00:05:45,053 --> 00:05:47,013
I feel like there's a way
Dale wants to silence her.
148
00:05:47,055 --> 00:05:48,348
Mm-hm.
149
00:05:48,390 --> 00:05:51,268
Because of his own internal...
150
00:05:51,309 --> 00:05:52,978
-Insecurities.
-Yeah.
151
00:05:53,019 --> 00:05:54,855
That is that
internalized racism.
152
00:05:54,896 --> 00:05:56,398
Mm-hm.
153
00:05:56,439 --> 00:05:58,859
Like, if they were
able to describe that...
154
00:05:58,900 --> 00:06:01,027
Right.
But how do you get there?
155
00:06:01,069 --> 00:06:02,404
I think
asking how it felt.
156
00:06:02,445 --> 00:06:03,780
Mm-hm.
157
00:06:03,822 --> 00:06:04,531
And you could even
be like, "I know,
158
00:06:04,573 --> 00:06:08,034
like, I'm a white therapist,
but could you help me understand
159
00:06:08,076 --> 00:06:10,412
what this feels like
from your perspective?"
160
00:06:10,453 --> 00:06:12,706
Mm-hm.
161
00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:15,792
It was a tough week...
162
00:06:15,834 --> 00:06:17,878
starting from
leaving the last session.
163
00:06:17,919 --> 00:06:18,962
Mm-hm.
164
00:06:19,004 --> 00:06:20,964
We got into a heated
discussion about it.
165
00:06:21,006 --> 00:06:22,799
About this
christening party?
166
00:06:22,841 --> 00:06:23,508
Yeah.
167
00:06:23,550 --> 00:06:27,053
I feel like he is the only
person that walked out of
168
00:06:27,095 --> 00:06:29,306
that situation...
169
00:06:29,347 --> 00:06:31,057
uneasy.
170
00:06:31,099 --> 00:06:33,226
I'm not saying that
what happened is okay,
171
00:06:33,268 --> 00:06:34,895
but it does happen, you know?
172
00:06:34,936 --> 00:06:36,062
Mm-hm.
173
00:06:36,104 --> 00:06:37,689
He has
somewhere, at some point,
174
00:06:37,731 --> 00:06:39,900
disconnected from
almost all emotions,
175
00:06:39,941 --> 00:06:41,860
because it's not
just angry emotions.
176
00:06:41,902 --> 00:06:45,530
I feel like when I'm trying to
connect with him being silly or
177
00:06:45,572 --> 00:06:47,032
overly happy or--
178
00:06:47,073 --> 00:06:49,075
-Mm-hm.
-It's always too much.
179
00:06:49,117 --> 00:06:51,244
He never taps in.
180
00:06:51,286 --> 00:06:53,914
It's not that I
don't have emotions.
181
00:06:53,955 --> 00:06:56,249
I've cried plenty of
times in front of India, I've...
182
00:06:56,291 --> 00:06:57,334
Mm-hm.
183
00:06:57,375 --> 00:07:00,462
But how many times
have we cried together?
184
00:07:00,503 --> 00:07:01,963
-Um...
-It's the connectivity.
185
00:07:02,005 --> 00:07:03,924
-Interesting.
-You know?
186
00:07:03,965 --> 00:07:05,508
We haven't-- I don't
think we've had anything
187
00:07:05,550 --> 00:07:07,427
really where...
188
00:07:07,469 --> 00:07:11,056
it's like we needed to
cry together over it.
189
00:07:11,097 --> 00:07:12,515
I mean...
190
00:07:12,557 --> 00:07:14,643
the birth of a child.
191
00:07:14,684 --> 00:07:16,102
Mm-hm.
192
00:07:16,144 --> 00:07:17,437
There are times that I'm
trying to connect with you,
193
00:07:17,479 --> 00:07:19,439
and I feel like
I'm-- the bar is missed.
194
00:07:19,481 --> 00:07:21,316
Okay, okay.
I-- I get that.
195
00:07:21,358 --> 00:07:23,109
-Emotionally.
-Yeah.
196
00:07:23,151 --> 00:07:25,236
But do you
recognize something in that?
197
00:07:25,278 --> 00:07:26,738
No, no,
yeah, absolutely.
198
00:07:26,780 --> 00:07:29,449
I mean, I think the
industry that I'm in,
199
00:07:29,491 --> 00:07:30,951
when I started
out in real estate,
200
00:07:30,992 --> 00:07:34,079
I would get-- sometimes, I
would get so high off of maybe
201
00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,289
something happening, and then
it turns out it doesn't happen.
202
00:07:36,331 --> 00:07:37,707
Mm-hm.
203
00:07:37,749 --> 00:07:39,125
And then, you have to pick
yourself up and be able to work
204
00:07:39,167 --> 00:07:40,585
again, you know?
205
00:07:40,627 --> 00:07:42,462
So I've trained
myself to, you know,
206
00:07:42,504 --> 00:07:44,297
kind of be just kind
of even-keel and--
207
00:07:44,339 --> 00:07:47,092
You've probably trained
yourself to be even-keeled
208
00:07:47,133 --> 00:07:51,137
about...
other things, too, emotionally.
209
00:07:51,179 --> 00:07:52,597
Mm-hm.
210
00:07:52,639 --> 00:07:57,602
And maybe when you see a
lot more going on in India,
211
00:07:57,644 --> 00:07:58,979
more feelings...
212
00:07:59,020 --> 00:08:00,313
Mm-hm.
213
00:08:00,355 --> 00:08:01,982
Some kind of
alarm goes off in you.
214
00:08:02,023 --> 00:08:04,275
Yeah.
215
00:08:04,317 --> 00:08:06,111
Definitely.
216
00:08:06,152 --> 00:08:09,280
What if you asked
yourself "I seem to be alarmed.
217
00:08:09,322 --> 00:08:11,282
Am I jealous?
218
00:08:11,324 --> 00:08:14,160
Have I had to...
219
00:08:14,202 --> 00:08:16,496
cut things off?"
220
00:08:16,538 --> 00:08:19,708
Yeah, for sure, it's
not-- it's not jealousy.
221
00:08:19,749 --> 00:08:20,959
Um...
222
00:08:21,001 --> 00:08:23,378
I wouldn't be completely...
223
00:08:23,420 --> 00:08:25,380
-Yeah!
-Convinced.
224
00:08:25,422 --> 00:08:29,384
Well, I do admire the fact
that she can act freely with
225
00:08:29,426 --> 00:08:30,969
her emotions.
226
00:08:31,011 --> 00:08:33,972
Mm-hm, yes.
227
00:08:34,014 --> 00:08:36,516
I think, also, for
me, being a Black man,
228
00:08:36,558 --> 00:08:37,934
that's a little bit different.
229
00:08:37,976 --> 00:08:39,144
Right.
230
00:08:39,185 --> 00:08:41,771
I'm not allowed, in
society, to just....be...
231
00:08:41,813 --> 00:08:43,189
be mad.
232
00:08:43,231 --> 00:08:44,983
Mm-hm.
233
00:08:45,025 --> 00:08:46,818
You know, hell, there are
nights that I take Lincoln,
234
00:08:46,860 --> 00:08:51,197
our dog, out for a walk, and
I'm not even allowed to be cold.
235
00:08:51,239 --> 00:08:53,658
If I put my hoodie on and
I'm walking next to someone--
236
00:08:53,700 --> 00:08:56,036
Right.
237
00:08:56,077 --> 00:08:58,872
Immediately, they'll stop and
wait for me to pass, you know?
238
00:08:58,913 --> 00:09:00,373
-Mm-hm.
-I'm just cold.
239
00:09:00,415 --> 00:09:01,791
-Right.
-You know?
240
00:09:01,833 --> 00:09:03,293
But--
241
00:09:03,334 --> 00:09:05,128
I don't wanna get too
much into that but--
242
00:09:05,170 --> 00:09:07,172
You can get into that.
I mean...
243
00:09:07,213 --> 00:09:08,339
why not?
244
00:09:08,381 --> 00:09:10,133
It matters.
245
00:09:10,175 --> 00:09:11,593
It--
246
00:09:11,634 --> 00:09:13,762
It's a luxury that I don't have.
247
00:09:13,803 --> 00:09:15,346
Mm-hm.
248
00:09:15,388 --> 00:09:17,140
And regardless of--
249
00:09:17,182 --> 00:09:20,143
But even with that, did
you see what just happened?
250
00:09:20,185 --> 00:09:21,686
Yeah.
251
00:09:21,728 --> 00:09:24,773
There are a lot of moments like
this where I'm almost like...
252
00:09:24,814 --> 00:09:26,775
"Are we sharing the same
Black experience?"
253
00:09:26,816 --> 00:09:27,984
-Yeah.
-Well, of course we are.
254
00:09:28,026 --> 00:09:29,861
Because I know you are
going through what Black men go
255
00:09:29,903 --> 00:09:32,197
through, but you
don't tap into that,
256
00:09:32,238 --> 00:09:35,366
you don't talk about that, so...
257
00:09:35,408 --> 00:09:36,993
Can I ask you...
258
00:09:37,035 --> 00:09:39,788
India, you said earlier that
it's different to speak to
259
00:09:39,829 --> 00:09:43,875
someone who's other
than to each other.
260
00:09:43,917 --> 00:09:46,836
Do you feel, as a
person of color,
261
00:09:46,878 --> 00:09:51,091
a lot of
discomfort to talk to me?
262
00:09:51,716 --> 00:09:55,095
I feel like I have to...
263
00:09:55,136 --> 00:09:56,221
dress it up a bit--
264
00:09:56,262 --> 00:09:57,889
-Mm-hm.
-For you.
265
00:09:57,931 --> 00:09:59,432
-Mm-hm.
-Um...
266
00:09:59,474 --> 00:10:01,226
Dress it up so I
will understand?
267
00:10:01,267 --> 00:10:03,436
Or dress it up so I will not...
268
00:10:03,478 --> 00:10:04,854
Yeah, dress it up
so you'll understand.
269
00:10:04,896 --> 00:10:05,897
Mm-hm.
270
00:10:05,939 --> 00:10:06,606
You
know, from our scope.
271
00:10:06,648 --> 00:10:08,108
Mm-hm.
272
00:10:08,149 --> 00:10:09,859
Because there is still the
layer of "I'm speaking to a
273
00:10:09,901 --> 00:10:13,113
white woman right now, I need
to address it in a certain way."
274
00:10:13,154 --> 00:10:15,240
-Yeah.
-But I wanna face it head-on.
275
00:10:15,281 --> 00:10:16,449
Mm-hm.
276
00:10:16,491 --> 00:10:18,785
I wanna talk to you,
the white person, about it.
277
00:10:18,827 --> 00:10:19,911
Yeah.
278
00:10:19,953 --> 00:10:21,246
'Cause this is how
we move forward--
279
00:10:21,287 --> 00:10:22,455
-Absolutely.
-This is how we get better.
280
00:10:22,497 --> 00:10:23,957
Mm-hm.
281
00:10:23,998 --> 00:10:26,292
We just have to face
the traumatic emotions head-on.
282
00:10:26,334 --> 00:10:29,671
Right, strong
feelings like...anger.
283
00:10:29,712 --> 00:10:32,132
Yeah, right!
284
00:10:32,173 --> 00:10:34,926
And I think the difference
between the two of us is he
285
00:10:34,968 --> 00:10:37,137
doesn't-- you know, he does
not want to acknowledge his
286
00:10:37,178 --> 00:10:38,138
emotions.
287
00:10:38,179 --> 00:10:39,347
Mm-hm.
288
00:10:39,389 --> 00:10:40,807
He-- he talks
about it briefly but,
289
00:10:40,849 --> 00:10:42,308
you know, it's
balled up, move on.
290
00:10:42,350 --> 00:10:44,477
No, I've shared
with you, you know,
291
00:10:44,519 --> 00:10:46,938
the beginning stages of me
starting a business and what
292
00:10:46,980 --> 00:10:48,314
that was like being a Black man.
293
00:10:48,356 --> 00:10:49,691
Yeah.
294
00:10:49,732 --> 00:10:52,152
I mean, I had people coming to
my office -- that was set up in
295
00:10:52,193 --> 00:10:55,363
an office building --
asking me if I'm running a scam.
296
00:10:57,198 --> 00:11:00,743
As feel as though I can either
let it get me upset and bog me
297
00:11:00,785 --> 00:11:05,165
down, or I can push
through and make things happen.
298
00:11:05,206 --> 00:11:07,750
I choose to push through
and make things happen.
299
00:11:07,792 --> 00:11:10,295
But there's some way that
you deal with the emotional
300
00:11:10,336 --> 00:11:14,174
implications of whatever
we're talking about differently.
301
00:11:14,215 --> 00:11:15,925
Yeah.
302
00:11:15,967 --> 00:11:18,511
And I think India is suggesting
that you do some kind of
303
00:11:18,553 --> 00:11:23,057
dissociation there, that you
cut yourself off from that.
304
00:11:29,564 --> 00:11:32,567
I-- I'm a li-- I--
I'm always torn between that,
305
00:11:32,609 --> 00:11:34,360
because it's like...
306
00:11:34,402 --> 00:11:36,196
you know, what am I
supposed to do with that,
307
00:11:36,237 --> 00:11:37,197
you know?
308
00:11:37,238 --> 00:11:38,531
Mm-hm.
309
00:11:38,573 --> 00:11:40,992
It's like I'm here trying to
just make a living for myself.
310
00:11:41,034 --> 00:11:42,202
What am I supposed
to do with that?
311
00:11:42,243 --> 00:11:45,413
Yeah.
312
00:11:47,248 --> 00:11:48,875
I'm sorry.
313
00:11:48,917 --> 00:11:50,752
Why are you sorry?
314
00:11:50,793 --> 00:11:53,046
Well, the way I see it
sometimes is that even the
315
00:11:53,087 --> 00:11:57,050
acknowledgment is so taxing.
316
00:11:57,175 --> 00:11:58,718
So...
317
00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,722
I don't know, sometimes
I choose just not to...
318
00:12:02,764 --> 00:12:05,558
not to give validation to it...
319
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,061
and just...
320
00:12:09,437 --> 00:12:12,815
But I just wanna understand;
so when you say-- when you allow
321
00:12:12,857 --> 00:12:15,068
yourself more
contact with feelings...
322
00:12:15,109 --> 00:12:16,402
Mm-hm.
323
00:12:16,444 --> 00:12:19,239
And you say, "What am I
supposed to do with this?."..
324
00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,032
what happens
between the two of you?
325
00:12:21,074 --> 00:12:26,079
Is there somewhere for that
to go between the two of you?
326
00:12:26,454 --> 00:12:29,207
Mm...
327
00:12:29,249 --> 00:12:32,877
Well, I mean, well--
328
00:12:32,919 --> 00:12:35,463
I would ask the question "What
is she supposed to do with it?"
329
00:12:35,505 --> 00:12:36,589
-Yeah.
-You know?
330
00:12:36,631 --> 00:12:38,258
It's-- it's...
331
00:12:38,299 --> 00:12:39,634
Obviously, I have
shared with her,
332
00:12:39,676 --> 00:12:41,427
but I don't
necessarily want a--
333
00:12:41,469 --> 00:12:44,055
But do you get upset?
334
00:12:44,097 --> 00:12:45,598
-In that moment?
-Mm-hm.
335
00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:47,809
-Uh, no, no, not really.
-He's just very matter-of-fact.
336
00:12:47,850 --> 00:12:49,435
-No.
337
00:12:49,477 --> 00:12:51,479
Because...
338
00:12:51,521 --> 00:12:54,899
first of all, that is, like, a
great burden to carry on your
339
00:12:54,941 --> 00:12:59,612
own, and even if you
dissociate from it,
340
00:12:59,654 --> 00:13:01,072
it's still there--
341
00:13:01,114 --> 00:13:02,407
-Yeah.
-Weighing on you.
342
00:13:02,448 --> 00:13:04,242
Yeah.
343
00:13:04,284 --> 00:13:07,036
So there's plenty of things
that happen when you share it
344
00:13:07,078 --> 00:13:10,623
with another person
and you feel understood.
345
00:13:10,665 --> 00:13:12,875
-Mm-hm.
-It has this kind of...
346
00:13:12,917 --> 00:13:14,794
miraculous...
347
00:13:14,836 --> 00:13:18,464
power to transform very
difficult feelings to something
348
00:13:18,506 --> 00:13:20,466
that becomes useful.
349
00:13:20,508 --> 00:13:21,217
Yeah.
350
00:13:21,217 --> 00:13:25,263
And help the two of you
deepen what you have together.
351
00:13:25,305 --> 00:13:27,724
-Mm.
-Yeah.
352
00:13:27,765 --> 00:13:32,812
And it's-- and it's exactly what
I yearn for from her at times:
353
00:13:32,854 --> 00:13:35,940
to be more vulnerable.
354
00:13:35,982 --> 00:13:37,650
-Mm-hm.
-Yeah.
355
00:13:37,692 --> 00:13:40,611
Yeah.
356
00:13:41,738 --> 00:13:46,326
mellow folk music
357
00:14:17,148 --> 00:14:21,110
So I wanted
to go back to gender.
358
00:14:21,152 --> 00:14:24,489
I feel like there's this pattern
with these men that are not as
359
00:14:24,530 --> 00:14:29,369
expressive, and they
attach themselves to very
360
00:14:29,410 --> 00:14:30,536
expressive women.
361
00:14:30,578 --> 00:14:32,121
Mm-hm.
362
00:14:32,163 --> 00:14:34,540
And they develop this
somewhat-parasitic relationship
363
00:14:34,582 --> 00:14:35,708
with these women...
364
00:14:35,750 --> 00:14:36,959
Mm-hm.
365
00:14:37,001 --> 00:14:39,128
To keep doing that
kind of work for them.
366
00:14:39,170 --> 00:14:40,338
Mm.
367
00:14:40,380 --> 00:14:43,383
And I find that
with, like, Josh and Molly.
368
00:14:43,424 --> 00:14:44,592
Mm.
369
00:14:44,634 --> 00:14:45,760
It's like constantly
putting this kind of
370
00:14:45,802 --> 00:14:47,720
gas nozzle into her--
371
00:14:47,762 --> 00:14:49,555
He's
actually feeding off her.
372
00:14:49,597 --> 00:14:51,391
Yes.
373
00:14:51,432 --> 00:14:55,019
And constantly inviting
her to emote towards him,
374
00:14:55,061 --> 00:14:58,856
whether by aggression
or love or demands or...
375
00:14:58,898 --> 00:15:03,194
But how about if we think about
it as a child -- a baby boy --
376
00:15:03,236 --> 00:15:08,116
and a mother, and the
baby needs to feed.
377
00:15:08,157 --> 00:15:11,369
So in that sense, it's
not parasitic, it's survival.
378
00:15:11,411 --> 00:15:12,495
Mm-hm.
379
00:15:12,537 --> 00:15:14,372
But she's trying to
get things from him, too.
380
00:15:14,414 --> 00:15:15,748
Yes.
381
00:15:15,790 --> 00:15:17,583
And they're both
stuck in a paradox;
382
00:15:17,625 --> 00:15:20,420
she's asked to be
the needy one who,
383
00:15:20,461 --> 00:15:24,382
at the same time, provides...
384
00:15:24,424 --> 00:15:28,761
and he, he needs-- he
needs, but he cannot...
385
00:15:28,803 --> 00:15:29,929
say it.
386
00:15:29,971 --> 00:15:31,764
Yes.
387
00:15:31,806 --> 00:15:34,851
And this dynamic
drives her crazy.
388
00:15:34,892 --> 00:15:37,478
Mm.
389
00:15:39,230 --> 00:15:43,192
I got, for our family,
like, a calendar -- a whiteboard
390
00:15:43,234 --> 00:15:45,445
calendar -- so that we
can really keep track,
391
00:15:45,486 --> 00:15:47,613
'cause everyone's schedules
is getting kinda crazy.
392
00:15:47,655 --> 00:15:48,239
Mm-hm.
393
00:15:48,239 --> 00:15:51,826
And so,
everyone is a color, okay?
394
00:15:51,868 --> 00:15:53,077
Nice.
395
00:15:53,119 --> 00:15:55,079
So I said,
"Magnolia, pick your color.
396
00:15:55,121 --> 00:15:56,664
Vienna, pick your
color," and then I said,
397
00:15:56,706 --> 00:15:59,459
"Josh, pick your color.
398
00:15:59,500 --> 00:16:01,627
You can be any color."
399
00:16:01,669 --> 00:16:03,588
"I don't know,
should I be green?"
400
00:16:03,629 --> 00:16:05,214
-This is Josh speaking?
-Yes.
401
00:16:05,256 --> 00:16:07,800
"I don't know, should I be blue?
402
00:16:07,842 --> 00:16:09,844
This is hard; it's hard
for me to pick a color,"
403
00:16:09,886 --> 00:16:13,181
and I said, "I just need you to
pick a color so that I can do
404
00:16:13,222 --> 00:16:16,017
what I need to do
for our family."
405
00:16:16,058 --> 00:16:18,644
And then he said, "Fine, green."
406
00:16:18,686 --> 00:16:21,606
And then, he excused
himself to go downstairs.
407
00:16:21,647 --> 00:16:22,482
Mm-hm.
408
00:16:22,523 --> 00:16:23,816
And I went
downstairs and I said,
409
00:16:23,858 --> 00:16:24,817
"Are you okay?"
410
00:16:24,859 --> 00:16:27,236
And he said, "I just-- I
just needed a moment."
411
00:16:27,278 --> 00:16:29,655
-Mm-hm.
412
00:16:29,697 --> 00:16:31,240
You're
laughing...?
413
00:16:31,282 --> 00:16:33,493
It's-- it's a
fucking dry eraser color.
414
00:16:33,534 --> 00:16:34,994
Well, no, I
actually think I said,
415
00:16:35,036 --> 00:16:36,996
"I don't care,
whatever color you want"
416
00:16:37,038 --> 00:16:38,664
I think is what I said.
417
00:16:38,706 --> 00:16:40,500
And you were like, "No,
I want you to choose,"
418
00:16:40,541 --> 00:16:41,834
and then I was like, "Uh..."
419
00:16:41,876 --> 00:16:43,628
Because I don't wanna-- that's
extra work for me that I don't
420
00:16:43,669 --> 00:16:44,921
wanna have to do.
421
00:16:44,962 --> 00:16:46,506
"Green or purple.
I'm thinking green or purple."
422
00:16:46,547 --> 00:16:48,007
He should just...
423
00:16:48,049 --> 00:16:50,510
But it's hard to
choose between green and purple.
424
00:16:50,551 --> 00:16:53,679
Why...can't...you...
425
00:16:53,721 --> 00:16:56,724
make...a choice?
426
00:16:56,766 --> 00:16:59,352
Why?!
427
00:17:00,770 --> 00:17:02,647
I mean, look where it got
us when you couldn't make a
428
00:17:02,688 --> 00:17:06,984
decision about whether we should
have a third child or not.
429
00:17:09,278 --> 00:17:11,822
Can you-- I mean, we can
go back to the markers,
430
00:17:11,864 --> 00:17:15,076
but can you fill me in on this?
431
00:17:15,117 --> 00:17:19,539
We talked about if we should
have a third child or not.
432
00:17:19,580 --> 00:17:21,499
Mm-hm.
Who was saying what?
433
00:17:21,541 --> 00:17:24,043
I was
saying I wanted to.
434
00:17:24,085 --> 00:17:29,090
He was ambivalent but, as
we've talked about it further,
435
00:17:29,924 --> 00:17:34,512
was afraid to tell me no,
436
00:17:34,554 --> 00:17:39,308
or afraid to say "We need
more time to think about it."
437
00:17:39,350 --> 00:17:42,562
He just didn't make a choice.
438
00:17:42,603 --> 00:17:47,400
Wait, what-- what's-- tell
me your version of the story.
439
00:17:47,525 --> 00:17:51,404
Well, this is in-- this also
is when I-- this is the-- when I
440
00:17:51,445 --> 00:17:54,907
first got emotionally involved
with this person about eight
441
00:17:54,949 --> 00:17:56,576
years ago.
442
00:17:56,617 --> 00:18:01,205
I think at that time, I was very
confused about a lot of things,
443
00:18:01,247 --> 00:18:02,748
and...
444
00:18:02,790 --> 00:18:07,295
I've always
worried about keeping...
445
00:18:07,336 --> 00:18:09,297
you happy.
446
00:18:09,338 --> 00:18:11,757
I think probably at the time, I
knew it was something that was
447
00:18:11,799 --> 00:18:16,804
important to you, so it
didn't feel like my...
448
00:18:17,972 --> 00:18:22,727
qu-- question mark about
it was stronger than how you
449
00:18:22,768 --> 00:18:24,103
were feeling.
450
00:18:28,357 --> 00:18:32,903
The one thing that I have asked
for in our marriage that I have
451
00:18:32,945 --> 00:18:36,115
said will make me happy...
452
00:18:36,157 --> 00:18:41,203
is to talk with me about what
he wants or what he thinks,
453
00:18:41,662 --> 00:18:45,124
so that we can do
things together.
454
00:18:45,166 --> 00:18:48,377
I just want him to
include me in his questions.
455
00:18:48,419 --> 00:18:50,588
I don't need him
to make a decision.
456
00:18:50,630 --> 00:18:53,382
I just wanna be included.
457
00:18:53,424 --> 00:18:57,053
But what you're asking for
happens to be both difficult for
458
00:18:57,094 --> 00:18:58,638
Josh but also--
459
00:18:58,679 --> 00:19:00,389
But then he should-- then he
shouldn't have stayed in this
460
00:19:00,431 --> 00:19:02,725
marriage in the first place,
because I've been asking for it
461
00:19:02,767 --> 00:19:04,101
from the beginning!
462
00:19:04,143 --> 00:19:05,561
Right, but the
solution to that,
463
00:19:05,603 --> 00:19:07,521
in your mind, is for Josh to--
464
00:19:07,563 --> 00:19:08,731
I don't know
what the solution is!
465
00:19:08,773 --> 00:19:10,358
I need he-- I want he--
466
00:19:10,399 --> 00:19:11,567
I'm trying to talk to you.
467
00:19:11,609 --> 00:19:12,943
Okay.
468
00:19:12,985 --> 00:19:15,029
Okay.
469
00:19:15,196 --> 00:19:19,575
So you have a very clear,
intense idea about what you
470
00:19:19,617 --> 00:19:24,664
need, which is to say you want
there not to be kind of a side
471
00:19:24,955 --> 00:19:27,792
stream where Josh
lives separately,
472
00:19:27,833 --> 00:19:32,838
maybe in a somewhat-vague state,
while trying to make you happy.
473
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,385
But the solution is not
simply getting what you need.
474
00:19:37,426 --> 00:19:38,844
Mm-hm.
475
00:19:38,886 --> 00:19:42,640
The solution has partially to
do with you understanding how
476
00:19:42,682 --> 00:19:45,476
the intensity of your ask...
477
00:19:45,518 --> 00:19:49,480
if affecting the feel
between the two of you.
478
00:19:49,522 --> 00:19:53,025
But when will it
become a conversation of
479
00:19:53,067 --> 00:19:54,652
"Okay, well...
480
00:19:54,694 --> 00:19:57,863
but you have to look at the
way that Molly engages in
481
00:19:57,905 --> 00:20:00,032
conversation or what
she needs," you know?
482
00:20:00,074 --> 00:20:03,035
I just feel like...
483
00:20:03,077 --> 00:20:08,124
Meaning that you're being asked
to adjust to Josh's rhythm...
484
00:20:08,165 --> 00:20:09,834
Yes!
485
00:20:09,875 --> 00:20:12,336
But you don't feel
like Josh is getting any kind of
486
00:20:12,378 --> 00:20:15,756
pressure to adjust to yours?
487
00:20:15,798 --> 00:20:17,717
Yes!
488
00:20:17,758 --> 00:20:22,388
I do not know if Josh feels this
feeling that he needs to make
489
00:20:22,430 --> 00:20:25,891
changes, and the
unfortunate thing is the way
490
00:20:25,933 --> 00:20:28,352
that I have chosen...
491
00:20:28,394 --> 00:20:32,898
to scream and yell at him that
he needs to do some fucking work
492
00:20:32,940 --> 00:20:36,068
himself has been by
having my own relationships
493
00:20:36,110 --> 00:20:37,570
with other people.
494
00:20:37,611 --> 00:20:39,905
It's like my way of screaming
at the top of my lungs!
495
00:20:41,782 --> 00:20:44,410
But the fact that you think
that I haven't done anything,
496
00:20:44,452 --> 00:20:46,912
that I haven't done any
work or grown at all,
497
00:20:46,954 --> 00:20:48,247
first of all--
498
00:20:48,289 --> 00:20:50,958
But I have asked
repeatedly the same thing,
499
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,837
and it ha-- and every single
time we get to sit on a couch,
500
00:20:54,879 --> 00:20:58,799
and I need to understand who you
are and how you're sensitive and
501
00:20:58,841 --> 00:21:00,342
this and that--
502
00:21:00,384 --> 00:21:01,969
That's not-- that's not true.
That's not a fair statement.
503
00:21:02,011 --> 00:21:03,721
Can I interrupt?
504
00:21:03,763 --> 00:21:05,931
Because what I feel like I'm
doing with the two of you right
505
00:21:05,973 --> 00:21:10,770
now is actually putting
pressure on Josh to...
506
00:21:11,020 --> 00:21:14,523
articulate yourself much more
clearly and to understand how
507
00:21:14,565 --> 00:21:17,401
you're...
508
00:21:17,443 --> 00:21:21,781
thriving by
relying on Molly's...
509
00:21:21,822 --> 00:21:22,782
intensity.
510
00:21:22,823 --> 00:21:24,950
I guarantee you he
does not see it that way,
511
00:21:24,992 --> 00:21:27,953
and until you just said that,
he did not realize that you were
512
00:21:27,995 --> 00:21:29,830
putting pressure on
him to think that.
513
00:21:29,872 --> 00:21:31,123
I guarantee you.
514
00:21:31,165 --> 00:21:33,959
He is thinking,
"Okay, she understands me,
515
00:21:34,001 --> 00:21:36,253
she really sees
my authentic self,
516
00:21:36,295 --> 00:21:38,964
and my authentic
self is who I am,
517
00:21:39,006 --> 00:21:42,468
and to change that
would be unauthentic!
518
00:21:42,510 --> 00:21:44,970
She's not asking me to
look at that and change it,
519
00:21:45,012 --> 00:21:46,847
she's really
understanding it, and now,
520
00:21:46,889 --> 00:21:49,266
I get to say, 'See?
This is who I am.
521
00:21:49,308 --> 00:21:51,602
It's hard for me to make choices
or blah-blah-blah-blah-blah,'
522
00:21:51,644 --> 00:21:55,022
and I'm not supposed to
not be my authentic self."
523
00:21:55,064 --> 00:21:58,067
Guarantee it.
524
00:22:00,069 --> 00:22:02,655
Would you like
to...respond to that?
525
00:22:02,696 --> 00:22:04,406
Is that what's going on?
526
00:22:04,448 --> 00:22:06,158
No.
527
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,162
No, it seemed very clear to me
at the beginning that you were
528
00:22:10,204 --> 00:22:14,250
pressuring-- asking Molly not to
talk and continuing to ask me to
529
00:22:14,291 --> 00:22:17,002
go to-- to...
530
00:22:17,044 --> 00:22:18,838
try and figure out
what was going on.
531
00:22:18,879 --> 00:22:20,840
Granted, this is something
that happened eight years ago,
532
00:22:20,881 --> 00:22:22,842
and since then...
533
00:22:22,883 --> 00:22:24,969
we've made a lot of
tough choices together,
534
00:22:25,010 --> 00:22:26,887
as a couple.
535
00:22:26,929 --> 00:22:28,389
Together, we've made choices.
536
00:22:28,430 --> 00:22:32,017
Josh, I was in a relationship
for five years with someone
537
00:22:32,059 --> 00:22:36,063
else, and a year and a half ago,
I was in a relationship with an
538
00:22:36,105 --> 00:22:39,483
ex-girlfriend.
539
00:22:40,067 --> 00:22:43,279
I am still screaming.
540
00:22:45,072 --> 00:22:48,242
Yeah, but fuck that, and
fuck that to say that, like...
541
00:22:48,284 --> 00:22:51,036
I mean, the way you're just
saying it is like if I had done
542
00:22:51,078 --> 00:22:52,872
something, you wouldn't
have done those things.
543
00:22:52,913 --> 00:22:55,082
That's not
what I'm saying!
544
00:22:55,124 --> 00:22:57,042
And that some--
and that somehow,
545
00:22:57,084 --> 00:22:58,419
if I had just
gotten it right--
546
00:22:58,460 --> 00:22:59,712
No!
I'm not--
547
00:22:59,753 --> 00:23:00,880
You wouldn't have
done those things.
548
00:23:00,921 --> 00:23:01,922
That's exactly
what it sounds like!
549
00:23:01,964 --> 00:23:03,215
It's not about
getting it right!
550
00:23:03,257 --> 00:23:04,675
There's not a right--
551
00:23:04,717 --> 00:23:06,677
"I'm screaming at you to do
what I'm asking you to do.
552
00:23:06,719 --> 00:23:08,053
Do it the way I
want you to do it,
553
00:23:08,095 --> 00:23:08,596
I've be screaming--"
554
00:23:08,637 --> 00:23:10,222
What am I
asking you to do?
555
00:23:10,264 --> 00:23:12,516
Really?
Is this really an interrogation?
556
00:23:12,558 --> 00:23:13,893
-Is that how we're gonna do it?
-No, Josh!
557
00:23:13,934 --> 00:23:15,060
I'm not--
558
00:23:15,102 --> 00:23:16,729
Where you're leading me down
the path to get me to the--
559
00:23:16,770 --> 00:23:18,898
-I'm not interrogating you--
-Answer that you're hoping for?
560
00:23:18,939 --> 00:23:20,232
No, I'm not
interrogating you--
561
00:23:20,274 --> 00:23:22,234
It feels like
it, it feels like it.
562
00:23:22,276 --> 00:23:26,488
I'm trying to see if you can
repeat what I have been asking
563
00:23:26,530 --> 00:23:29,074
for years.
564
00:23:29,116 --> 00:23:31,744
I could have been more present,
I could have talked to you more
565
00:23:31,785 --> 00:23:33,704
about all the things
that I was feeling,
566
00:23:33,746 --> 00:23:35,748
about the questions
I was having, about--
567
00:23:35,789 --> 00:23:38,751
So why isn't
that happening now?
568
00:23:38,792 --> 00:23:42,129
It...is...happening...now!
569
00:23:42,171 --> 00:23:45,466
It hasn't happened
for the past week.
570
00:23:45,507 --> 00:23:48,469
But we've been talking
so much more deeply about
571
00:23:48,510 --> 00:23:50,262
everything for...
572
00:23:50,304 --> 00:23:51,764
It-- it is happening!
573
00:23:51,805 --> 00:23:54,934
What do you mean
it's not happening?!
574
00:23:57,770 --> 00:24:01,106
I am, like, so bothered right
now that you're sitting there
575
00:24:01,148 --> 00:24:03,734
like that with
this attitude that,
576
00:24:03,776 --> 00:24:07,279
like, I am being ridiculous
and that I'm interrogating you,
577
00:24:07,321 --> 00:24:10,950
when all I am saying to
you is I don't think...
578
00:24:10,991 --> 00:24:12,284
that you have been doing...
579
00:24:12,326 --> 00:24:16,163
the work that you say you have!
580
00:24:22,002 --> 00:24:23,921
Okay, we're gonna
have to stop 'cause we've run
581
00:24:23,963 --> 00:24:25,965
out of time.
582
00:24:26,006 --> 00:24:28,092
And hopefully, we
can pick up from here.
583
00:24:28,133 --> 00:24:30,970
Yeah.
584
00:24:31,011 --> 00:24:32,972
"after it all
blew over" by otta
585
00:24:38,018 --> 00:24:39,770
Thank you.
586
00:24:39,812 --> 00:24:41,605
Thank you.
587
00:24:41,647 --> 00:24:45,693
After it all blew over
588
00:24:50,239 --> 00:24:55,285
After it all blew over
589
00:25:02,209 --> 00:25:06,964
After it all blew over
590
00:25:13,679 --> 00:25:18,684
After it all blew over
591
00:25:25,566 --> 00:25:30,612
After it all blew over
592
00:25:37,077 --> 00:25:42,082
After it all blew over
593
00:25:49,256 --> 00:25:54,053
After it all blew over
594
00:26:01,268 --> 00:26:06,023
After it all blew over
49339
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