All language subtitles for Couples.Therapy.2019.S02E08.720p.WEBRip.x264-GalaxyTV_track3_[eng]

[sighs]

[whispering] Are
you meditating?

I'm channeling sex.

[laughs]

[laughs] We've
gotta talk about it.

You've gotta talk about it.

Giving me horny vibes.

Stop!
[both laugh]

theme music

It just comes down to
what turns you on, right?

Or no?

I don't know.

It has definitely--
how do you put this?

It's gotten much
more vanilla?

-I don't know how you--
-[Orna] Mm-hm.

-You know?
-Yeah.

[Matthew] Since
I've gotten sober.

And I don't know what really
turns me on at this current

-point.
-[Orna] Right.

How do you feel about that?

About Matthew trying to figure
out who he is now sexually?

Are you open for the idea of,
like, trying out, experimenting,

-seeing how it feels?
-Oh yeah, absolutely.

-[chuckling] Anything.
-[Orna] Yes.

-Yeah.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.

I've expressed that.

-I've told him, you know?
-[Orna] Yeah.

That's because, I mean, I
feel like I got into this

relationship when I was 24, 23,
so there's a lot of things that

I want to experience, that I
want to do, and I want him to be

-there with me, you know?
-[Orna] Mm-hm.

Sometimes I don't know how--
should help or what should I do

to make things be
more flowy or...

you know.

It's not physical, because
I'm very attracted to him.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

[sighs]

And it's very easy
once we're in it.

But I need to
take the initiative.

Mm-hm.

I just don't
understand why it's...

more out of
my comfort zone.

Like, it's silly. [chuckles]

I've had sex before.

[Orna] Right.

So what is it about being sober?

What is it about being in a
really serious relationship?

Once you really get to
know someone, I mean,

well into three years of
being in a relationship,

I think he knows quite a
bit and has seen quite a bit,

that it just
makes me feel...

even more vulnerable.

Yeah.

Like, it's almost less
attractive, is how I envision

it.

Because you're more known?

-You're more exposed?
-[Matthew] Yeah.

I think everything-- I feel like
everything makes me more and

more vulnerable and I
don't understand why it's so

difficult.

-For you.
-[Matthew] Yeah.

Okay, I can't help but
think about what you've told us

about your history, right?

Your early history
with your family.

Mm-hm.

Like, being forced out so
aggressively and attacked by

your family and by your father.

My mom is very
important to me now.

And she's come a
long way and, like...

it's like night and day.

But, I mean, as far as I'm
concerned, I don't have a dad,

so... [chuckles]

You have a dad that
doesn't function like a dad.

I have one that texts
once every eight months.

I also feel like he's
trying in his own way.

"I see the weather's..."

Even when he met me,
he seemed, you know--

[Matthew] Yeah,
he was cordial.

The last time that,
you know, I decided,

okay, you know, I'm
gonna just approach...

like, have a
conversation with him,

you know, it ended
with him saying that,

you know, I was
gonna go to Hell.

-Again.
-[Matthew] Yeah.

I called him on my
birthday because,

I don't know, I had a
moment where I was just,

you know, wanted my dad.

So if your closest people, like
your parents, are attacking your

very sexuality, it's
probably pretty tough.

-It's like...
-Right.

Just trying to
follow your own impulses.

It's true.

You know, they suppressed my
sexuality and the only way that

I could navigate through it was
to drink my way through it and

not feel ashamed--

Ashamed or like
something's wrong with you--

-[Matthew] Right.
-Or like you're
gonna get punished.

Right, so everything
I did was, you know...

I was ashamed of who I was.

[Orna] Yeah.

And still kind of am.

But I'm translating it
right back into, like, your

ambivalence around initiating,
putting yourself out there.

-[Matthew] Mm.
-With all that is alive in you.

It must feel like
such a risk to do that.

Yeah, to initiate anything.

[Orna] To initiate putting
your real self out there.

What you really desire.

I mean, considering all
that you've been through,

it's kind of amazing that
you are still doing it.

-[laughs]
-[laughs]

[Orna] It is!

I mean, it's a testament
to your life force.

Just a little bit
more of a nurturing,

you know, uh, entity in
my life could've done--

-[Orna] Yeah.
-So much more.

[Orna] I know.

But you wisely chose Gianni.

[chuckling]

What are you thinking?

No, you just--
I have those...

I have, like, little...moments.

Hold on.

[sighs]

That everything's
going to be okay.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

ambient music

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

[Orna] As a therapist, you
don't always know who's in the

room with you.

You're definitely not
only with two people.

[Virginia] Right.

Because each one of the
people that is sitting in

the room is bringing with them
their parents or the people that

have influenced them in terms
couples and family relations.

Exactly.

[Orna] And when they're
talking to each other,

they're not necessarily
talking to their partner.

They could be their mother
talking to their father.

[Virginia]
Repeating a certain dance.

Yeah.

[Orna] These conversations
are never over and you're always

having them with your
partner and then with your kids.

Like, you'll be talking to
your kid and you're actually

continuing a conversation
you had with your father,

like, some 35 years ago.

[laughter]

-I felt myself fuming--
-Mm-hm.

And I'm like...

it's a very, very
sketchy topic, you know?

[Orna] Should we talk about it?

[Tashira] It was between him
being a stepfather and my older

son.

[Dru] He drinks a lot
of water during the day, right?

And we have, like, this water
pitcher that, like, strains or

whatever in the fridge.

-[Orna] He meaning your stepson?
-Yes.

[Orna] Yeah.

So he drank all the water in
it and I just made a comment,

I said, "You gotta learn how to
fill this thing up, you know?

-Because it's always empty."
-[Orna] Mm-hm.

Right?

But this one chimes
in, out of left field,

and is like, "Well--" like,
right in front of him, too.

She's like, "Well, you need
to learn how to fill it up

yourself."

But, I guess the choice to
do it right in front of is an

interesting choice.

That, I
understand and that is...

I mean, it's hard for me.

I always-- it's
just like a defense.

Like, I don't know.

Like, when he tells
him to do something,

it's just-- like, it bothers me.

It bothers you that Dru
takes a position of authority?

[Tashira] Yeah.

It does.

It bothers me.

It doesn't make me feel
comfortable and I get defensive.

Meaning you don't want Dru
to have that position in the

family?

I do want him to have it, and
I've been trying to allow him--

Not allow him, but,
you know, just...

You can say allow.

I understand that.

Okay, so allow him to be given
the opportunity because I do

understand that if we're gonna
be a family unit that he needs

to have that authority as well.

Well, I mean, different people
have different ideas about

paternal authority.

Maybe you have-- maybe you're
struggling to figure that out

for yourself.

[Tashira] Well, yeah,
no, I absolutely think so.

I think it has a lot to do with
that I did it by myself for a

long time, you know, and maybe
also because I didn't really

grow up with a paternal
authority or whatever.

And because your father
maybe exploited his
paternal authority--

-[Tashira] Yeah, I mean--
-By being ultra violent.

I mean, there might be all sorts
of reasons why you feel like you

need to undermine
Dru's authority.

[Tashira] Yeah.

Sometimes I go
back to that place,

you know?

And I don't know if I go back
to that place maybe because

sometimes I feel like
it's not gonna be forever,

you know, so it's kinda like...

You go into mistrust.

[Tashira] Yeah.

I go into mistrust--

[Orna] Mistrust the father
is not part of the family.

Yeah.

-Yeah.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.

You know, and it's
like, I'm trying,

and sometimes I can
keep it at balance,

but other times, like
that particular time,

-you know, it just came out.
-Yeah.

And it's also been like...

Just to pause for a second.

I mean, that's a very honest
expression of what's going on,

right?

-Do you appreciate that?
-Yeah, mm-hm.

That Tashira is trying to
figure out a way to honestly let

you in despite history, despite
years of doing it on her own.

It's a real process.

I assume you can
appreciate that.

Yeah, I understand.

But are you still upset?

[laughs]

Uh...

I'm not really upset, you know?

Just the natural thought of,
like, all right, how long is

this gonna go on
before you realize--

I knew he was gonna say that.

Well, I'm just
saying what's on my mind.

-No, no, no, I know, I know.
-Just a natural--

How long is this
gonna go on until--

[Dru] Before she can trust
that I'm not going anywhere.

-Mm-hm.
-[Dru] You know?

Yeah.

Well, trust takes time.

And I do trust you.

It's not that I don't trust you.

Well, you don't
trust 100 percent.

I don't trust the
situation 100 percent.

-[chuckles]
-[Orna] What does that mean?

"The situation?"

Meaning, like...

-The relationship?
-The rela--

I mean, that it could
end at any possible moment.

I mean, that's the truth.

We could have a house.

We could have four kids.

We could have five dogs.

It could still end.

-See what I mean?
-[laughs]

But what are you
actually saying?

[Tashira] But I think that
that's the reality of it.

Some people break up.

Some people don't last.

Some people--

But what are the
factors that make that happen?

I'm just saying--

Are you saying this generic
thing that we can't hold

on to anything?

Things always change?

Are you saying "This person
that I trust will turn on me?"

Are you saying "There's
no way to get out from under

history?"

I think all of that.

I mean, I don't...

What are you saying?

-I just think that...
-[Orna] In the statement, you--

Okay, but in the statement, it's
the fear of believing that it

will all work out
and then it doesn't.

But what does this mean,
"It will all work out?"

Meaning that we'll
be together forever.

That we'll have
a relationship--

But what do you
think that depends on?

I think it depends on the
work that two people do.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

But do you believe that the
two of you will put the work

into it?

I believe that the two of
us will put the work in,

but I don't know if I believe
that he's gonna want to forever.

Does that make sense?

It's a little suspicious.

Why is it suspicious?

[Orna] Because I don't
really know what you're saying.

That she doesn't
trust me still.

But based on the
person you know.

Okay, I feel like if I
don't figure out all my shit,

that he's gonna get tired of it.

So you don't
trust yourself, really.

-[Tashira] Yeah.
-Okay.

That's something
you can work with.

You're maybe
saying, I don't know,

maybe you're saying that you
don't trust yourself to not

somehow push him out.

Yeah.

[Orna] Okay.

Well, you've got work to do.

Yeah.

mellow music

[Orna] You have to let go of
your childhood when you're

really creating a new family.

Are you just gonna repeat
what has been handed to you?

Are you just gonna repeat
the mistakes your parents made?

Or are you going to be able to
kind of jump the fence and do

something different?

I mean, I see it with my kids.

[Virginia] Yes.

You'll do the tomatoes
for the little salad...

[Orna] Like
everyone else, I repeat,

I'm very much a
product of my history,

of course.

I guess the question is
am I ever not repeating?

[laughs]

Ah!

[groans] Ow.

Oy.

Mm.

-[sighs]
-Sorry, sweetie.

My head hurts so much.

And my stomach hurts.

And my back hurts.

You sound like
our kids. [laughs]

[groans] I want a Milky.

[both laugh]

Oh, God...

I feel like it's very Freudian
to say that there's a person

inside of you who's like a
little kid who's still trying to

please your mommy.

I just don't think
that that's the case.

I feel like it's more along
the lines of what we were

talking about when we said
something about blueprints.

You know, part of the blueprint
that my parents gave me was to

marry a good
religious Jewish guy.

-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-And I met this person.

And if I hadn't done that, if
they hadn't instilled that in

me, who knows if I'd have
ended up being married to him at

such a young age and had kids
and, you know, live a good

Jewish life?

I'm thankful for those things
but I don't really feel like I'm

a good judge of what's
a good thought-- what's,

like, a good foundational
brick and what isn't.

Meaning you have to
take it wholesale.

[Michal] Yeah, I'm like
thinking about everything now.

Otherwise everything
could fall apart.

[Michal] Yeah.

If you start challenging the
blueprint that your parents

handed down, you might suddenly
be left with no coordinates as

-to to how to live.
-Right.

Like, what if I stopped
being anxious about--

Develop a fantasy,
what would happen?

[Michal] Um...

Let's say you
unplugged from worry.

-Mm-hm.
-[Orna] What's the fear?

Or what's the scenario
that comes to mind?

I...

I feel like maybe like--

the first thought that
popped into my mind is that

90 percent of the things that
I do, I wouldn't do any longer.

Fascinating.

Okay.

What would you do?

I always kinda
wanted to travel.

Go someplace in the world that's
like a third-world country and

kind of just like live off
the land and sleep in tents and

stuff like that. [laughs]

I wanted to do that when I was
younger and my mom kind of just

beat that out of me, right?

That was not gonna happen.

How did she beat it out of you?

She said it's unrealistic and I
should get married and I should

go to school and...

You know, all the things
that you're supposed to do.

And that it's dangerous.

A lot of dangers in the world.

So...

I never did that.

So that might come back
if you unplug from anxiety.

Right, but I would never do that
because I would miss my kids too

much.

-And him too, but--
-Take them.

[Michal] I'd miss my
kids a lot. [laughs]

Take them!

Take them with you.

Yeah, but that's just--
it's just too scary.

Do you know what
they have in New York?

You can't go to Texas
because of scorpions.

There's so much congestion that
people die every year in traffic

accidents.

You can't go to
any of these places.

These places are just
too scary to go to.

Like New York.

He asked me today
if I was, um, if I...

He said that everybody
subconsciously has this desire

to be immortal.

And I said, "I don't have a
desire to be immortal at all.

I don't even
really enjoy my life."

I just want to make sure that
before I die, that my kids are

okay.

That's all I care about.

[Orna] It's sad
what you're saying.

I don't think of it as sad.

I think people are like too
overenamored with themselves and

their enjoyment
of their own lives.

I don't think that's sad at all.

There's some truth in what
you're saying and some very

sad--

I mean, I probably should enjoy
my life a little bit more but,

I don't know, I'm not
really jealous of those people.

But you're saying you're too
anxious to consider your life

enjoyable.

Um...maybe.

[Orna] And it sounds like maybe
you're hoping for something for

your kids.

Um...

Yeah, I do-- I was thinking
about that today in the lobby.

So it's-- but we're hearing
remnants of this blueprint--

[Michael] Yeah, it sounds like
a similar dynamic from your

-mother.
-[laughs] I know.

I feel almost comical saying it
because it's like so obvious.

-Right.
-[Orna] That that is
part of the blueprint.

Yeah.

-Is to never actually
enjoy your life.
-Right.

-Because the next one will.
-[Orna] It's too hard.
-Right.

-Maybe the next generation will.
-[Michal] Yeah.

[Michael] But it
didn't work out with you.

I know.

Can I ask, Michael, how
do you think your couple's life

and your family life would
change if Michal was less

anxious?

I wouldn't even know.
[both laugh]

Try to imagine.

I mean, the immediate
thing that comes into mind is

that I would have
to do more things.

-That doesn't bother me.
-Mm-hm.

-[Michael] I'd
be fine with that.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.

Like, the anxiety rolls off of
me like water off a duck's back.

But she can't not get there.

That's how it feels.

Well, it's also because a
part of me doesn't rely on him.

Like, for example, did you
schedule your teeth whitening

yet?

-No.
-Yes.

Really?

-You did? [laughs]
-A while ago.

Okay, well, that
was embarrassing.

But how did that become
the subject right now?

[Michael] We had a
fight over that one.

But we're now imagining a world
in which you're not anxious.

But he's proved himself to be
untrustworthy when it comes--

I literally just proved myself
to be trustworthy when it comes

-to doing things.
-[Orna] Let go.

You're not even doing
a thought experiment.

That's not true,
you didn't fix the tub.

-[Michael] The tub?
-You're not even doing
a thought experiment.

Okay.

-What?
-[Orna] This is extraordinary.

What?

[Orna] We're in a
thought experiment.

-Okay.
-Imagine a world...

-I imagine--
-In a world...

-[chuckles]
-Where you have no anxiety!

So one thing you're
thinking is you would do more.

[Michael] Right,
I would be doing more.

What else would-- how
else would things change?

Okay, well, how
would my life change?

He doesn't think
about his life.

He only thinks
about me. [laughs]

Right.

How would my life change?

Do you realize that?

A lot of the time, when
you ask him questions,

he discusses how I would feel?

Absolutely, right.

You think that he does
that because I'm so anxious?

-Like, he worries
about how I'll feel?
-[Orna] Partially, yeah.

Yeah, I think that's fair.

Like when I consider anything
that we are doing or that I'm

doing, I have to think, "How is
this going to make Michal feel?"

Like, for example, I told you
about something that happened at

work today.

-Right?
-Right.

And before
anything happens, I said,

"This is something that I will
have to reckon with Michal in

-some way."
-Right.

And it'll be a conversation,
or a decision to avoid a

conversation, or a way
to tactfully present this.

So you have to spend a lot
of energy managing Michal's

anxiety.

But what if your anxiety
wasn't the ruling factor?

I don't know if he's doing
that because of my anxiety.

I think he's doing that
just 'cause he really loves me.

He really just
wants me to be happy.

That's exactly what you
said about your mother.

Right.

ambient music

[Orna] Everyone
promises themself, as a kid,

"I'm not gonna do
that to my kids."

But people are kind of caught
between the temptation to repeat

and the wish to do
different and to do better.

[laughs]

[laughter]

I am a part of you
You are a part of me

And then we've caught us up

I see you, you see me
We know it's up and down

Then it goes
So out of the view