All language subtitles for A compassionate spy.en-HI

[objects clatter]

Interviewer:
Is that in frame?

Cameraman: Well, it depends
where Joan is gonna sit.

Interviewer:
Joan's gonna be here.

[indistinct chatter]

Interviewer:
Okay, whenever you're ready.

Okay, this is a recording
for archive purposes.

And the idea is to document,

um, Ted Hall's activities
in 1944 and '45

and afterwards, in connection
with the Soviet government

and his work
on the atomic bomb.

I'm Joan Hall, um...

and I'll be asking questions

and it is the third of June,
1998 in Cambridge.

Okay.

Well, the first question, Ted,
is what led you to go

into this activity
at the age of 19?

Well, uh, like...

virtually all of
the academic people,

at least at Los Alamos,

I was quite concerned
with the question

of what the world
would be like

when the Second World War
was finished?

Joan: Were you scared
about this step

that you were going to take?
Were you frightened?

I can't remember
being frightened.

No, I don't think so.

Joan: You didn't think
"If I do this,

I'm breaking the law
and they might execute me?"

No.

- No. [chuckles]
- Joan: [chuckles]

[somber music playing]

[explosion]

Joan: Did you have any sense
that you were doing something

that was disloyal
or morally dubious?

Ted: In my mind,
this was the question

of protecting the Soviet people

as well as all people
from wanton attack.

Preventing an
overall holocaust,

which would affect
the entire world, really.

[somber music continues]

[somber music concludes]

Joan: I left high school at 15

and went
to the University of Chicago,

which I've always recognized

as a pivotal moment
in my experience.

This whole intellectual process,

for me,
was a wonderful discovery.

In my third year in the place,

I met lots of men
because the war ended

and young men were coming back
in throngs for the G.I. Bill.

And, God, it was great.
[chuckles]

[clears throat]
And I made up my mind

that I wasn't going
to get married until I was 28

and I was then coming up to 18.
I was going to give myself

a good ten years
of independence.

And then I met Ted.

And I thought,
"What a good-looking guy."

I felt that he was a person
I could talk with,

discussing politics or music
or anything that interested us.

And that meant that
I was friendly with Savy too

because Savy stuck to Ted.

Savy was a very unusual person.

He liked poetry and philosophy
and politics in a way.

He had never been molded
into a conventional

American youth of his age.

I guess Ted
was intrigued by him.

[chuckles]
There is a picture of Teddy.

"Spring 1947."

"Grass was
our courting ground."

[grandiose music playing]

"In the Quadrangle
by Mandel Hall,

after hearing
the Communist Gerhart Eisler

denounce the government

that wouldn't let him
return to Europe

to build a new socialist
East Germany.

With Savy and other students,

we sprawled on the grass
in the sunshine..."

No, no, you're never
drawing again.

Young Joan: Why? [laughs]

"...and you suddenly pushed me
down and lay over me..."

[Young Joan laughing]

"...trying to push a pinch
of grass up my nose.

We laughed,
wrestled deliciously.

You lingered there for a few
more seconds, heavy and warm."

[indistinct chatter, laughter]

[camera shutter clicks]

Joan:
"Our bodies first greeting."

I will not. [chuckles]

Young Ted: Get your hair
out of my face at least.

"And then that balmy
April evening,

when the three of us
lay on the grass,

my head on your arm
and Savy's head on my thigh.

Under the trees, the moon,

the fragrant spring air
throbbing with possibility,

our heads spinning.

I stood up, declared,
'I love you both dearly,

but how can I love you
both at once?'

You dryly remarked,
'That's certainly a problem.'"

Interviewer: When did
you realize that he...

[chuckles]

Interviewer:
...was more interested in you

than just friendship?

Well, they both were.
This was a problem.

I would like
to propose a toast, huh?

A toast, to what?

Joan: We could never
get rid of Savy.[laughs]

To the revolution
in the streets

- of East Germany.
- [chuckles]

The people are rising up

against their
capitalist overlords...

Joan: [chuckles]
I'm sorry, but...

Savy: ...a new day is dawning.

I just don't feel like
telling those stories in detail.

They're too private.

Interviewer:
That's fine. That's fine.

Can you tell me what
your first date with Ted was?

- I never had a date.
- Interviewer: No?

We just went around together.

[romantic music playing]

Joan:
"Once a wunderkind,

now a brilliant young scientist
in love with physics.

A nonconformist,
that is to say

with his own precise rules,

keeping well clear
of anyone else's nonconformity.

He loved Mahler.

Irony was his mother tongue.

Did I forget to say
he was beautiful?"

He had this office
at the top of Eckhart Hall

where he had an assistantship.

He had a portable record player
and a big box full of 78s.

There was one record
he had that we both liked

and that was a Mozart piano
and violin sonata.

And that became
sort of our song. [chuckles]

♪ ["Violin Sonata No. 24 -
II. Andante" by Mozart Plays] ♪

Joan: We would lie on the floor.

[indistinct chatter]

Joan: It was lovely. And...

I didn't then know
that there was a colony

of enormous cockroaches
living in that building.

But I don't recall
that they interfered

with our enjoyment of
lying on the floor. [chuckles]

Interviewer:
So, how did he pop the question?

[chuckles] He said,

"Joan, I love you,
will you marry me?"

And I said, "Yes."

All lying on the floor, yeah.

Because both of us were Jewish
and complete atheists,

we said we'd like
a non-religious ceremony.

[laughs]

And, uh...

suddenly, Ted went all serious

and he said there's something
I have to tell you.

And so...

He said, "Well, you know,

about the work
I was doing at Los Alamos?"

"Yeah."

He said, "It was very secret,

we weren't allowed
to tell anybody about it."

And that it was very dangerous

that the Americans
had a monopoly of this weapon.

Then I said, "Oh, so...
So you're gonna give information

to the Russians?"

And he said, "I did, yeah."

And, uh, I thought about that

and I said, "Why?
What good will that do?"

And he explained that

it would be a safeguard
against another war

if the Russians
also had this weapon.

And he said, "I wanted
to tell you about it now

before we get married because
you might want to drop out."

Well, I didn't want to drop out.

And nothing
he could have told me...

He could have told me
he murdered somebody

in the street, I don't know,
but there was nothing

that could have changed
my mind at that point.

And, um, he said,

"You must be careful,
this is really secret,

you must not mention it
to anybody in any way."

I said, "Okay."

"Not to your mother."
I said, "God, no."

At which point, he relaxed
and we started cuddling

and we went back
to what we were there for.

♪ ["Violin Sonata No. 24 -
II. Andante" by Mozart Plays] ♪

Interviewer: And that was that.

That was that.

I... You know,
I gave up the idea

of my ten-year freedom period
without a backward look.

I just knew I couldn't...

I couldn't let him go.

I knew I'd never meet
anyone like that again.

I was right too.

Presenter: In the calm
of Harvard University,

there are many thinkers who,

pondering the pressure
of today's mechanized world,

are seriously concerned with
the effect of modern living

upon mankind.

Joan: Ted was recruited
to work at Los Alamos

three years before I met him,
when he was 18 at Harvard.

Ruth: I've never seen
these letters before.

I can't believe it.

Like teenage Ted.

Yeah, I haven't
read them for ages.

- So, I'm...
- Ruth: So aware of the world.

This is April '43, so he was 17

and he is rating Harvard
as an educational institution.

Joan: But he spells
Harvard there

in a funny way, doesn't he?

- Ruth: Yeah. "Hah-vud."
- Joan: "Hah-vud."

Ruth: H-A-H-V-U-D.

- It's "Hah-vud."
- [all chuckle]

Ruth: "Dear Ed,
as an educational institution,

the spirit is all wrong..."

And then written out big
in his handwriting,

"There is no laughing
in the classes."

[Sara chuckles]

"What it boils down to
is that there's no appreciation

of the lusty beauty
of effective learning,

learning that is to be applied
to world building.

That is perhaps
the basis of education.

In this sense,
the process of education

depends as much, maybe more,
on the students as on the profs,

where one authority
is dumping his irrefutable facts

into the heads of good students
who will learn it all."

- [Sara chuckles]
- [chuckles]

Beautiful.

Joan:

[both laugh]

Joseph: A recruiter
from Washington came up

to try and find out
the most brilliant of the people

still at Harvard in the...
in the undergraduate program,

in the field of physics
and mathematics.

At this point, Ted was a senior
at Harvard at the age of 18.

His mission was to pick up
a few very junior physicists

to help in the research work
at Los Alamos.

Joseph: Ted and his roommate
Saville Sax

were quite left
in their politics

and admiring
of the Soviet Union.

Joan: Savy struck people
as being odd.

[book slams]

Joan: [chuckles]
He was funny.

[chair scraping loudly
on floor]

Joan:
He had a lovely sense of humor,

a completely off-the-wall
sense of humor.

[chair thuds on floor]

The letter arrived yesterday,
it's official.

They offered me the position,

they want me
to start immediately.

That's incredible, Ted.

I think it must have
been intense for Ted

and he was a close friend
with Savy.

So he wanted
to talk to somebody.

[whispers] But it's got to be
some sort of weapon, right?

I mean, it's a big deal.

And they don't want us
talking about it to anybody.

[whispers]
So if this is some super weapon,

you have to share it
with the Russians...

Shh.

Joan: Savy came
from a politically active

Jewish Russian family.

[whispers] Are you crazy?
She's right there.

Savy: [whispers]
You know it's true though.

Yeah, the Russians
are our allies now,

but you know that they...

Joan:
Savy was always having ideas.

Ted would go along with them,
they were pretty crazy.

[whispers] You're nuts,
you know that?

♪ ["Praise the Lord and Pass
the Ammunition" Plays] ♪

♪ Shouting Praise the Lord
We're on a mighty mission ♪

♪ All aboard
We're not a-goin' fishin' ♪

♪ Praise the Lord
And pass the ammunition ♪

♪ And we'll all stay free... ♪

Ted: And I went out
to the project

and, um,
was told on the first day

what the work would be.

It was rather awesome

and the reason for most
of us to be working on it

was the fear that the Germans
would develop the weapon first.

I was a, um, a young person.

I saw the world, uh,
I guess you might say,

through rather
pinkishly colored glasses.

I was very optimistic
about the post-war world.

Here it is,
General Groves, plutonium.

Well, that's, uh, the first time
I've seen it,

but if you don't mind,
I wish you'd hold that under it

because there's about
50 million dollars in that tube.

Joan: General Groves
couldn't stand the sight

of all these healthy
young scientists

walking around
in civilian clothes.

Oppenheimer, on the other hand,
did want very much a sidewalk.

It must have been
a pretty muddy

and primitive place
at that time.

And so he made
a bargain with Groves,

the youngest members
of the staff could be drafted...

if Groves would provide them
with a sidewalk.

♪ This is the Army, Mr. Jones ♪

♪ No private rooms
Or telephones ♪

♪ You had your breakfast
In bed before ♪

♪ But you won't
Have it there anymore... ♪

Joan: Ted always said

that he was exchanged
for a sidewalk.

He had to move out
of his room into the barracks.

He hated the army.

[laughs] He never learned
to salute properly.

The bloody hat,
he hated the hat.

I was told he used
to take it into the forest,

throw it on the ground
and grind his heel into it.

♪ This is the Army
Mr. Brown... ♪

Joseph: Ted was put on
an important program.

He did very well in studying

the physical properties
of Uranium-235,

the fissile material
of the first atomic bomb.

He did so well at that,

that even at the age
of 18 or 19,

he's now put on an even
more important project

where he was, um, working
on the implosion bomb.

I mean, people right
through were aware

that something, uh, gruesome

and horrible
was being constructed.

And this was appreciated,
but there was, uh,

once one accepted the logic
of why you were doing this,

there was dedication and p...

[exhales]
I guess it was exhilarating.

[somber music playing]

Interviewer: Well, the Soviets
were our allies.

Ted: Yeah.

Interviewer:
Why aren't the Soviets

involved with this project?

Ted:
Well, a lot of people thought

that it was very important
that the Soviet Union

should share in the development
and in the information.

Well, during the war,
the attitude of the public

and the media, the government,
towards the Soviet Union

was one of admiration
and support.

Life magazine
had a whole spread

about life in the Soviet Union
which was just favorable.

That's just one example.

The American ambassador
to the Soviet Union

was Joseph Davies,
who wrote a book,

which I have
on the shelf there somewhere.

[patriotic music playing]

This book was published
during the war,

with an introduction
by President Roosevelt.

And it was...
it sold millions of copies.

When Germany attacked Russia,
the Soviet Union became

one of the nations
fighting Hitler.

And it was a desperate hour.

There was so much prejudice
and misunderstanding

for the Soviet Union,
in which I partly shared.

[grand majestic music playing]

I assure you that
my purpose in coming here

is to see all things
with an open mind

and report them faithfully
to Washington.

That's what my President wants,
that's why he sent me.

A very great man,
your President,

with a deep sympathy
for mankind.

Presenter: In the great Donbas,
I saw for myself

the wealth of Russia's
coal resources.

I went down into the mine
and talked with the workers.

Much to my amazement,

I discovered that 30 percent
of them are women.

Is it true that, in America,

the women are not allowed
to do work like this?

Well, there's no law against it,
but we don't like to put them

underground until we have to.

[chuckles]

In my early 20s,
I had to assume

the responsibility of running
my father's business.

An American woman
running a business? [chuckles]

We had the impression
that American women

were ornamental
and not useful.

And you thought that our women
were useful, but not ornamental.

[chuckles] I guess
we were both wrong.

I understand
you have visited

many other sections
of the Soviet Union.

Davies: I've been greatly
impressed by what I've seen.

I believe, sir,
that history will record you

as a great builder
for the benefit of mankind.

We feel more friendly
toward the government

of the United States
than any other nation.

Russia will never stop fighting
its fascist foe.

They will defend their cities,

they will fight
in their streets,

in their forests,

behind the German lines
and over them in the air.

[audience applaud]

How do we know
that we can trust Russia?

Sit down.

Joan: There were certainly
sectors of the population

that were
very strongly anti-Soviet,

but normal-life people
weren't really aware of that.

Were aware of the Russians
being heroic, and they were.

[majestic music playing]

They'd lost
20 million people in the war.

Twenty million!

And they were
defending Europe,

they were... [chuckles]
...they were beating the Nazis

and they were saving
the world for civilization.

That's not... not too extreme.

Ted: A number of scientists
raised the question,

"What kind of terms
are we going to be on

after the war
if we exclude the Russians?"

"What will be the consequences
if it isn't shared?"

In fact, some extremely
eminent scientists

were worried
about this question and said

that the knowledge
should be shared.

Niels Bohr was, I think,

most prominent
and he wasn't listened to.

These two sets of ideas
co-existed within my head.

One was,
it's a lovely world,

we've seen the light,

we're getting through
with a Second World War

and things
are going to be good.

And then off in one corner,
there was this little question,

but suppose
it isn't like that.

What if, uh...

there's a disintegration
into disharmony

between the nations
after the Second World War?

And what if a capitalist system
generates another Nazi Germany?

Maybe even the United States

might turn
into something like that.

Interviewer:
Ted, I'm just trying to sail

close to the wind here.

I am trying to see the point
at which you convert,

as it were, thinking,
into some sort of action.

Did that seem like breaking
a taboo to you in any way?

It seemed to me that, uh...

Well, it would, superficially,

would certainly break
some taboos

and it's not the kind of thing
one is told to do.

You... you're supposed to know

the difference
between right and wrong and...

But there are situations
that aren't that simply, uh...

aren't that simply described.

Joseph: As they were
approaching success,

they gave him a...
a pass to go back

to New York
for his 19th birthday.

And there, he got in touch

with his friend Saville Sax,

and they had decided
they wanted to get in touch

with the Soviets.

Marcia: They decided
the only place they could talk

about this was in a rowboat.

Think you've rowed far enough?

Well, I'm trying to get us away
from everybody else.

Marcia:
And they went out

and talked about,
"So what are we gonna do now?"

And they said,
"Well, we can't just walk

into the Soviet consulate, right?

And say, 'Here, we've
got this information for you.'"

It's too risky. So let me go.

You want to go and say what?

Well, I'll go under the pretense
that I'm trying to find out

information about
my grandparents in Vinnytsia.

Boria:
I think they were very close,

but on some level,
Savy wanted to be Ted.

Ted had this reputation
for brilliance.

You're doing something
incredibly brave here.

Marcia: They did actually
finally get someone

who would agree
to talk with them.

How were you treated
by the agents

of the Soviet government?

They were not threatening
in any way.

They didn't, in any way,
match the stereotype

of the heartless,
cruel, ruthless,

completely unscrupulous automatons.

They even had senses of humor

and, uh,
certainly of compassion.

I'm sure
that they had capabilities

of being very indecent
towards some people.

Joan: "For the record,
could you give an account

of what technical information
did you actually transmit

to the Soviets?"

Well, I did transmit
a list of names

of some of the physicists
who were working.

Joseph: Igor Kurchatov,

the head of the
Soviet Atomic Research Program,

realized this
was really important stuff.

They had no idea who was out
there at Los Alamos.

So, he was already

doing something
which was illegal

and potentially could have
gotten him put in jail

for many years.

- At the age of 19.
- Yeah.

And he did agree
to continue.

[mysterious music playing]

Marcia:
Ted and Savy worked up

this whole elaborate system

of using Walt Whitman's
Leaves of Grass,

certain pages,
and there were codes

that they could tell
to each other.

So he would send a letter
about page such and such,

what a wonderful poem this is

and somehow it translated into,
"Come and meet me."

Ted sort of described it
as almost a comedy.

In Albuquerque,

they just both walked up
to each other

and sort of met
in the middle of a street

and the agents,
at a later point, said,

"Oh, my gosh,
don't ever do that."

You know, "You can't both
come from different directions

and meet in the middle
of a street like that."

Joseph: But it was during that
time that Ted did pass along

the rough plans
for the implosion bomb.

Ted: I transmitted the concept
of the implosion,

in which you design
the explosive in such a way,

when the explosives
are exploded,

the fissionable material
is squeezed down.

And it will be
a very rapid energy release

and the exploding bomb.

It was one of the major secrets
of the war.

Ted had passed along
the first information

the Soviets received
that actually showed

the diagram of this bomb
that would blow up Nagasaki.

It corroborated
the information given by Fuchs.

Joseph: Stalin would have
been very dubious

about just getting the version
from one spy, Klaus Fuchs,

who was, after all, a German.

The fact that they had
identical versions

from two spies
in two different divisions

was very persuasive.

And so, they were able
to devote billions of rubles

at a time when the economy
could not have allowed them

to work on
a speculative project.

We feel this probably
speeded up the Soviet

development of the bomb
by about five years or so.

Ted: I was there.

The test was carried out
in an almost deserted region.

There were people
who lived there

and, uh,
an emergency might develop,

in which they would have
to be evacuated very rapidly.

So I was with
a bunch of the GIs

and we just whiled
away the time

talking about this,
that and the other.

I remember a lot
of the discussion, uh...

[chuckles]

...was about whether marriage
would endure as an institution

and whether it wasn't true that
as people's lifestyles change,

you could expect marriage to be
a sensible arrangement anymore.

So that's the subject
that we worked on

while we were waiting
for the explosion.

And then the time came.

[dramatic music playing]

Ted: And it was a rather
awesome sight.

And certainly made
people think,

"What the hell is this
and what are we getting into?"

[dramatic music concludes]

Ted: The mood was generally
one of celebration.

It was a...
quite a striking success.

♪ ["As Time Goes By"
by Rudy Vallée Plays] ♪

♪ This day and age
We're living in ♪

♪ Gives cause
For apprehension... ♪

Ted: I didn't go
to any of the parties.

People got noisemakers
and they lit little fires.

♪ ...We get a trifle weary ♪

♪ With Mr. Einstein's theory ♪

♪ So we must get down
To earth at times ♪

♪ Relax
Relieve the tension... ♪

I was peeved by
the reaction of my colleagues.

I didn't think
that this was quite the way

to react to such a
foreboding event.

[cheering in distance]

Ted: I went back to a dormitory

where I played some music
in my crummy record player.

♪ ...Still the same old story
A fight for love and glory ♪

♪ A case of do or die... ♪

Ted: I mean, it's as if I was
in a little isolation facility,

apart from everybody else.

[cheering in distance]

A large group of physicists
in the Manhattan Project

wrote a letter to Truman,

who was the president
at that time,

that they didn't sign up for
working on this to bomb Japan.

So they proposed

why don't we have
a demonstration blast

in the desert and invite
Japanese military officials?

Others said we should
just drop the project

because there were
many secret communications

that were intercepted

that suggested that Japan
was about to surrender.

They gave the letter

to Leslie Groves
for transmission to Truman.

Leslie Groves did not agree,

so Truman
never got that letter.

It's probably unlikely
that Truman

would have been convinced.

We know now from a memoir

that General Eisenhower recalled

when Secretary of War Stimson
briefed him

on the forthcoming use
of the bomb.

I voiced to him
my belief that, quote,

"Japan was at that very moment
seeking some way to surrender

with a minimum loss of face

and that dropping the bomb
was completely unnecessary."

And I thought that...

"Our country should avoid
shocking the world opinion

by the use of a weapon
who employment was,

I thought, no longer mandatory

as a measure
to save American lives."

The political target
of the bombing

was evidently the Soviet Union.

If the Russians were
about to invade Japan,

the U.S. wanted to say,

"It was our atomic bomb
that made Japan collapse."

"It was not the Russians."

[dramatic music
in newsreel playing]

Presenter:
Every type of transportation

was completely wiped out.

All institutions
and organizations,

public and private,
were destroyed.

Over the radio
from the United States

came the announcement

that the deadly weapon
was the atomic bomb,

the first ever used
in the world.

As the situation quieted down,

it became clear
how fearful the bomb was.

Fearful beyond
ordinary human imagination.

Reporter:
This is Major Tom Ferebee

of Marksville, North Carolina,

bombardier
of the first atomic bomber.

Would you give us
some of your reactions

over the target
of Hiroshima?

Uh, my navigator had me

perfectly lined up
with the target.

When I touched down
on my site,

I could clearly see the city
of Hiroshima within my bombsite.

After we felt the explosion
hit the airplane,

that is the concussion waves,

we turned around
to take a look at it.

The sight that greeted our eyes

was quite beyond
what we had expected

because we saw this cloud
of boiling dust and debris.

Beneath that
was hidden the ruins

of the city of Hiroshima.

The world will note
that the first atomic bomb

was dropped on Hiroshima,
a military base.

That was because
we wished in this first attack

to avoid,
in so far as possible,

the killing of civilians.

Presenter:
Hiroshima, seen from the air,

after the atomic bomb blast

that virtually erased this city

of 340,000 people
from the Earth.

As far as the eye can see,

stretched scenes
of desolation and ruin.

Four square miles
leveled by one bomb.

The product of allied science

and a climactic answer
to the terror and aggression

let loose upon the world
by Japan.

Daniel: The U.S. said,
we had to do the bombing

because otherwise,
we would have to invade Japan

and that would have cost
20,000 American troops

that they would
lose their lives.

Presenter:
At the end of two weeks,

which was the critical period,

burns and cuts,
which appeared to be curing,

suddenly worsened.

Hemorrhages developed,
which could not be stopped.

Many died
and the number of deaths

kept mounting from day-to-day.

Daniel: Since hundreds
of thousands of people died

in this atomic bombing,

that number
of American troops

continually got inflated.

A hundred thousand,
then it was a quarter million,

a half a million, until
finally, a few years later,

Truman would say,
"We saved a million lives

of American troops
because of the bombing."

Ted: Two hundred thousand
people had been incinerated

and nobody seemed
to care much.

Worse than just callousness

and I don't know
how to describe it,

except as maybe uncivilized.

I remember it was a jukebox
and, uh,

incessantly all day long,

people was playing
some damn record

that went something like,

"Nagasaki, Hiroshima,
blah, blah, blah, blah,"

in a tone of jubilation.

And, "Oh boy, ain't we great?

Look what we did,
we really smashed 'em."

♪ Hiroshima, Nagasaki paid
A big price for their sins ♪

♪ When scorched
From the face of earth ♪

♪ Their battle could not win ♪

♪ But on that day of judgment
When comes a greater power ♪

♪ We will not know the minute
And we'll not know the hour ♪

♪ Atomic power, atomic power ♪

♪ Was given
By the mighty hand of God ♪

♪ Atomic power... ♪

With this bomb,
we have now added

a new and revolutionary
increase in destruction.

We have spent
more than two billion dollars

on the greatest achievement
of organized science in history.

♪ ...It was given
By the mighty hand of God... ♪

[song concludes]

I was afraid that a state
with such a monopoly

might spell...

might trigger
very catastrophic events.

The main enemy

was viewed to be Russia
after the war was over.

[ominous music playing]

Daniel: A series of plans
were drawn up,

these were all secret,
with names

like Pincher and Broiler
and Shakedown,

to figure out

how many atomic bombs
would be needed

to defeat the Soviet Union.

Joan:
The generals, since about 1945,

were actually making plans

to drop atom bombs
on Russian cities.

- [siren wailing in distance]
- [music continues]

They wanted to bomb
the Russians to shit.

Daniel: They figured
they really need

a lot of atomic bombs dropped
on the Soviet Union

to cripple it,

so it couldn't retaliate
by invading Western Europe,

which we could not combat.

On the side
of the United States,

we're looking
at the nuclear war planners,

being largely from Wall Street.

A very large portion of them

were Wall Street bankers
and industrialists.

They had a view that the bomb
would be a monopoly

and allow the U.S.
to easily take over

the imperial role
around the world.

Bankers and industrialists
want economic domination.

Right after the war,
there was an agreement

between the four allies,

England, France,
U.S., and Russia,

to split the oil in Iran.

The U.S. decided
that the Soviet Union

should not share
any of that oil.

So, the Soviets
were very angry about that

and moved troops
to their border with Iran

to enforce what they said

would be an equal share
of the oil.

So, Truman made a threat

that if you don't pull
your troops back

from that border
within 48 hours,

we will bomb you.

And it was clear to the Soviets
we were talking atomic bombs.

The Soviets withdrew
their troops in 24 hours.

Man: [in Russian]

[clock ticking]

Man:

[explosion]

Joan: [in English]
I remember the day

when the announcement came

that the Soviets
had exploded a bomb.

[dramatic music
playing over radio]

News anchor: President Truman's
dramatic announcement

that Russia has created
an atomic explosion

sends reporters racing
for Flushing Meadow,

where Russia's
Vyshinsky arrives

to address the United Nations.

Joan:
We said nothing, of course.

News anchor: ...about Russia's
atomic progress in his address.

He accuses the West
of planning atomic war...

Joan: But immediately
after lunch went for a walk.

And I felt so proud of him,

as if he had done it
all by himself. [chuckles]

It was after that,
the whole propaganda apparatus

was devoted to scaring the hell
out of the American public.

♪ There's a Communist
Ambition now ♪

♪ To rule or wreck us all ♪

♪ With atomic ammunition ♪

♪ They would like
To see us fall ♪

♪ Peaceful men of
every nation ♪

♪ Would become
As common slaves ♪

♪ We'll prevent
That situation better ♪

♪ We shall fill our graves... ♪

Let's give Jerry a nightmare,
a real red nightmare.

[dramatic music playing in film]

- Soldier: I'll be upstairs.
- Jerry: Hey!

What is this?
Where do you think you're going?

We have no time
for explanation.

I don't care
who sent you or why.

You're not gonna take another
step until I see a warrant.

It's true, Daddy.
I did volunteer for farm work.

But Linda, why?

The party convinced me
that I should free myself

of the lingering bourgeois
influence of family life.

It's your fault.

You should have spent
more time training us

to think along party lines.

It will be my duty
to report you.

♪ ...Here's a question
Mr. Stalin ♪

♪ And it's you
Who must decide ♪

♪ When atomic bombs
Start falling ♪

♪ Do you have
A place to hide? ♪

[song concludes]

Boria: I don't think
you should overestimate

the historical or political sophistication

of either my father or Ted Hall,

but I do feel that
what they did was wrong.

The thing that makes it wrong
is the association with Stalin,

you know, a mass murderer.

They did look the other way
as far as the crimes of Stalin.

Joan: The terrible facts,
many of which were true

and some of which were not,

were all propounded
by the enemies of socialism,

and we were for socialism.
It was very difficult to know

exactly how to relate
to these things

and the Communist Party, etcetera,

declared it all lies.

Most of the leadership
of the political apparatus

in the Soviet Union
was wiped out under Stalin.

And the military also
was decimated.

It still is a great enigma
and a very difficult question,

how to reconcile
the possibilities

of the coexistence

of these backward
and forward-looking features.

I felt a tremendous compassion
for the Russian people

and their suffering.
And certainly didn't feel

this tender feeling
towards the Russian state.

Joan:
The fact is that he did say,

in later years,

that had he then known
of all the horrors

perpetrated
by the Soviet government,

he wouldn't have had the stomach
to pass information to them.

That is very possibly true,
but it's also the case

that if he hadn't done it,

it would have been a misfortune
for the world. [chuckles]

We actually joined
the Communist Party

because they seemed to be

the most decisive opposition

of the American Right

and the Republicans and people
who were against unions.

And against strikes

and against Black people
very often.

I mean, this was Trumpian, basically.

These were the people who were
wanting to make war on Russia

after the Second World War had
finished with all its horrors.

Ted was trying
to prevent a holocaust,

not to advantage
the Soviet Union,

not to disadvantage
the United States.

Interviewer: Do you have
any idea, Ted, what was at stake

if they had been able
to pin something on you?

Phew. Um...

Well, the obvious, um,
similar situation

was the Rosenberg case.

[dramatic music playing in film]

Presenter:
Someone had passed

America's atomic bomb
secrets to Russia.

This was an undisputed fact
that the whole world knew.

The federal government
had laid the crime

at the doorstep
of two native New Yorkers,

Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.

Their trial had excited
interest all over the world.

The two admitted
Communist Party members knew

that they faced
possible death sentences

in the event
of their conviction,

but to the end,
they both protested

their innocence of the theft.

And we followed the case
with grief and anxiety.

[crowd chanting]

Joan: I mean, a lot of people
were maintaining

that the Rosenbergs
hadn't done anything.

Ted, privately and secretly,
he told me

he did think they had
been involved in something.

He didn't know
anything about them.

He just speculated that
there was something behind it.

Joseph:
Hoover was very invested

in trying to win a conviction

and then the execution
of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg,

who actually were
guilty of, if anything,

passing along
a much less important piece

of a secret about Los Alamos.

The Rosenbergs were,
uh, small fish

compared to Ted Hall.

[tense music playing]

Joan: February 1951,

was when he was arrested
by the FBI.

Ted: The FBI called me in.

Their agents came
around one day

and asked me please to come
and accompany them

to the Chicago office.

Marcia:
The FBI had been apprised

of these Venona documents,

which were translations
of secret cables that were sent

from the Moscow Intelligence
Center in New York,

back home to Moscow,
saying Teodor Kholl

was one of the now assets
of the Soviet Union.

And it looked a lot
like Theodore Hall.

And so,
that was when the hunt resumed.

We would like to ask you
some questions

about your time working
at Los Alamos as a physicist.

I'm happy to answer
a couple of questions.

Marcia:
The lead investigator on this

was Robert McQueen.

This interview
will consist of questions

about espionage
at Los Alamos.

Do you know this man,
Julius Rosenberg?

His wife, Ethel?

I've seen it
in the newspapers.

McQueen:
Do you know them?

I don't know them personally.

Ted: They dumped
a picture on the table

and said,
"Do you recognize this person?"

"Do you know who this is
and do you know who that is?"

Young Ted:
And I don't recognize the name

of the other gentleman
you mentioned either.

They were very careful
to not let Ted

and those agents
of the Soviet Union

know that the Americans
had broken

the World War II Venona codes.

Sometimes they...
they turned pretty nasty.

McQueen: We have evidence

that you furnished
classified information,

provided it
to a Russian operative...

Joan: But he was very aware

that they were trying
to intimidate him

and one thing they were doing

was keeping the...
the office overheated.

McQueen: Kornikov approached you

about furnishing
classified information.

Joan: So that
he would feel all sweaty.

He... he figured
that was what was going on.

McQueen: ...and you
and Saville Sax began to do so.

Young Ted: It's not true.
I've never shared

any classified information.

Joan: But he was
just sitting there calmly.

He had an ability
to just to sit, not moving.

McQueen: Aren't you and Sax
a member of the Communist Party?

Com... Absolutely not.

Ted: At one point,
they both just left me

in the room for a while.

We'll be right back.

Savy, who, as a matter of fact,

was also detained
at the same time

and interviewed in the room
next to the room where Ted was.

Ted and Savy had discussed
this prospect

and they had made a plan.

What were they going
to tell them

and how are they going to act?

And Sax, who had
an interesting background

in drama
and all sorts of things,

just put on a big act of,

"Gee, I don't have
a very good memory."

"I can't remember this."

"I don't know
about these things."

His eccentricity protected him.

How could this really
eccentric guy be a spy?

It doesn't even make sense.

I think he seemed
less threatening.

And then I heard the most awful

sounds of anguish
and grief coming...

coming through the partition,
and from the next room.

McQueen: You came up with a plan
about how you'd become spies,

you eventually
provided them with...

Ted: In which
they were threatening him

with imprisonment.

Savy: I can't remember,
I have a bad memory

and can't recall
what we talked about.

McQueen: Do you know what
the penalty is for espionage?

Joan: And Savy was
much more vulnerable,

and they were trying
to play Ted

and Savy off against
each other.

McQueen: We could help you
avoid the electric chair.

Savy:
Please, I have a family.

Joan: Savy, mixed up as he was,
unstable as he was,

rose to the occasion.

McQueen: You want
to see your family again,

you better start
cooperating with us.

He knew but he didn't talk.

He cried but he didn't talk.

Ted: And then these two guys
came back to question me

further and I think they were
just trying to scare me

or get me
in a more susceptible mood.

Mr. Hall, do you consent to
a search of your work and home?

Do you have a search warrant?

FBI Agent:
Do you have something to hide?

Marcia: Ted was a little bit
more aggressive with them.

They did ask him,
"Did you provide information

about the bomb
to the Soviet Union?"

I know the kinds
of fishing expeditions

that occur in small rooms
like these.

Marcia: He said, "So, you guys,
you use really bad methods."

"I've read about some of
the things that you've done."

"Why are you doing this
and why did you bring me in?"

Ted was a person
who did not lie.

He never lied to me.
I never lied to him.

It was quite extraordinary...
[chuckles]

...I think,
in matrimonial relations.

[chuckles] But that was
the big lie that Ted told

and that was the only lie
of his life as far as I know.

And it was one
that had to be done.

[dramatic music playing]

[birds chirping]

[Young Joan
speaking indistinctly]

Hey...

Joan: He came home
and told me briefly

that they had interrogated him.

We have to get rid
of everything.

- Young Joan: Everything?
- Anything progressive,

anything incendiary, all of it.

- Okay.
- Young Ted: All of it.

Joan: And what we had
to do now was to collect

all the left wing literature
in the house.

[dramatic music continues]

[Ruthie crying]

[Young Joan
speaking indistinctly]

It's okay, sweetheart.

Let's go.

Joan:
As we got into the car,

Ted pointed out to me
a guy standing on the corner.

He said he was one of them,

one of the FBI guys.

[car engine revs]

Joan: We drove to the home
of some friends

who were active with us
in our political work,

and we handed them
the membership files

because I was
membership secretary

of the Progressive Party
in that time,

and... and we told them we had
to drop out of all activity.

They were bewildered, "Why?"

We couldn't explain.

And then we drove to a spot

where the Chicago drainage
canal passes under a bridge,

got out, leaving Ruthie
in the back seat.

[footsteps receding]

[dramatic music playing]

Joan: And then we drove home
and we went to bed.

I am at a loss to explain
how we managed to...

retain our cool.

It looked as if
there were storm clouds

that were threatening
to destroy us at any moment,

but we didn't know
what was going to happen.

So we just practiced
this nice easy tactic of...

[scoffs] ...ignoring things
as much as possible,

ignoring danger signals.

Over the weekend,
we went out with

Ted and Savy,
and Savy's wife Sue,

and two push chairs,
two strollers, with babies in.

And we strolled around

through the freezing cold
of Chicago,

trying to figure out
the situation and what to do.

Young Ted: We need to get
our handler some message.

[Ruthie cooing]

Joan: We both realized
that the risk was horrible.

I quail inside
even now when I think how...

my parents would have reacted,

supposing that
we were arrested

and taken away from Ruthie.

My mother
would have confiscated her.

Uh, I mean,
it was just unbearable.

Young Ted: We'll take it
one day at a time,

but admit nothing.

Joan: We dropped out
of the Communist Party

and the Progressive Party,

which I was
particularly active in.

And... and that meant a lot
to me, and I was very upset.

I was so upset.

I was being a mummy at home,

and this political activity
meant a lot to me.

Not only from
the conscientious political

point of view,
I wasn't selfless,

I was having a good time.

And I was having a lot
of contact with people,

and I felt that I was doing
something worthwhile.

And, uh...

and I wanted to be part of that.

[somber music playing]

Joan:
On Monday morning,

he went in,
he kept his appointment.

FBI Agent:
Good morning, Mr. Hall.

Young Ted: Good morning.

Joan: And they were all prepared
to resume questioning him.

I would like to pick up

exactly where
we left off on Friday.

You were doing some important
work on implosion,

which is precisely

what the Soviets
needed intelligence on.

Have anything to say?

Young Ted:
I've...

[smack lips] I've thought
about this quite a bit.

I've spoken to my wife
about it, and...

Joan:
He said that he had decided

not to converse
with them anymore.

And I've decided that...

I don't have anything else
to say on this subject,

and I would like
to end this interview.

FBI Agent: Mr. Hall,

I don't think that's
in your own best interest.

And, uh, he stood up,

preparing to go, and they
started threatening him.

Mr. Hall, do you know
what espionage is?

Sit back down!

Joan: They said
you'd better talk with us

or we're gonna
lock you up right now!

This was a bastard
called McQueen,

who was leading
the investigation.

And Ted sort of shrugged.

I said that I didn't want
to continue any further.

It was getting nowhere,
and I left.

Joan:
They followed him,

and he walked
to the elevators.

A whole bunch of guys stood
around and watched him do this.

[elevator bell dings]

They didn't follow him.

[dramatic music playing]

Joan: It took him
to the ground floor,

and he walked out...

into the ice cold,
fresh air.

And he practically ran
to catch a taxi and get home.

Marcia: And FBI agent McQueen
was very frustrated

because he had gotten nothing.

In the '90s,
after McQueen left the FBI

and he was a judge,

he said, "You know,

I really question whether
those Venona documents

would have been admissible
in court."

[doorbell rings]

[ominous music playing]

Joan: One day,
this guy comes up,

and he said he was
from the telephone company

and there was a fault
that he had to correct.

He went into the house,
and he took the phone apart.

We had a knock at the door,

and outside the door was Ed,

Ted's brother,
who joined the Air Force.

Ed! [chuckles] What a surprise!

I have this brother
who is 11 years older than me

and somewhat
of an engineering genius.

For better or for worse

with regard
to the future of his soul,

he's the person who invented
and was the real architect

of intercontinental
ballistic missiles.

Man: [over radio]
...two, one, zero.

[dramatic music playing]

Joan:
We were delighted to see him.

And then Ed and Ted
went for a long walk,

during which Ed said,

"What sort of a mess
have you got yourself into?"

Young Ted: Oh, my God, Ed,
of course, you know,

I... I didn't mean to get you
in any sort of trouble.

Joan: Ted explained
what he had done

and what the FBI were doing.

I just need to know
what I'm dealing with.

Ed didn't criticize him
in any way.

The repairman
finished his repairs,

and then Ed and Ted came back

and Ed went over
to the telephone...

[ominous music playing]

Joan: ...listened,

went... [blows air]

[chuckles]

...made gestures

indicating that
we won't talk about this...

that yes, it was bugged.

Joseph: In the decade
after Ted had been instrumental

in making the atomic bomb,

his brother Ed was instrumental
in making America

be able to build
intercontinental rockets.

Interviewer: That could hold
those bombs?

[chuckles] Theoretically, yeah,

that could theoretically
hold those bombs.

And, uh, and it might...
[chuckles]

It might have been very awkward
for the powers-that-be,

if they aimed a punch at me
and they ended up... [chuckles]

...hitting him by mistake.

It would have been
a deep disgrace for them,

if it were found out
that their chief rocket expert

was the brother
of their atom spy. [laughs]

It's a beautiful picture.
[laughs]

He would never have, um...

chastised me or, um,
attacked me in any way anyhow.

I said to Ed,
"You know, we really...

we really appreciate the way
you reacted to this thing,"

and he said,
"How else could I have reacted?"

And he really...
he really had no idea.

This was his brother,
what on earth could he have...

could he have thought?

Whatever his brother does
is okay.

That's the way it is.

and he said, "Well, well, well,
sure, go ahead." [chuckles]

"Withdraw my clearance,
you've seen the end of me."

[chuckles]

Well, that's one fact that
most people don't know about

when they raise
the question of why I...

wasn't locked up.

[dramatic music playing]

Joan: We did a lot
of driving around

in our little old car.

The FBI started following us,

and I would sit beside Ted,

and when he noticed
in the mirror

that there was a car behind,

he would go like that,
indicating that we had a tail.

They tailed us
all over the place

for no absolute purpose
from their point of view,

because we didn't go anyplace
that they were interested in.

I think it was just harassment.

But we took that as well

with complete composure,
both of us.

And from then on,
I had this secret with him,

which we never spoke about
because he was...

he was afraid of microphones.

The FBI continued

questioning all sorts of people
who were in the circle

of friends and family members,

and, you know, it caused
quite a bit of discomfort.

Supposing that we were arrested,

both of us,
like the Rosenbergs...

Oh, God, I mean, the disgrace

among all our acquaintances,
and family and friends, phew.

Didn't bear thinking about.

We both felt things may go
very, very wrong.

[inhales]
The danger was extreme.

Must have been
sometime during the spring,

Ted, he had
actually going for a walk

with his Russian guy,
who came to Chicago.

The only way out of it,
apart from the FBI

changing their minds
and leaving us alone,

was to be taken

off to the Soviet Union
and be evacuated.

Secretly, I rather relished
the idea of going to Russia

and learning Russian.
[chuckles] Like a fool.

This Russian guy,

he indicated that
if we were in New York,

they could help us more.

And as it happened,
Ted had just finished his PhD.

So he applied for a job

at the Sloan Kettering Institute

for Cancer Research
in New York City.

They hired him

for the princely sum
of I think 6000 dollars a year.

To my mother's
hysterical displeasure,

we left Chicago
and moved to New York.

[soft music playing]

Joan: We bought a nice little
house in Connecticut.

Debbie was born
in 1954 in May...

and we began living
a suburban life,

in which my role was
to keep the house going

and look after the kids.

And I was really...

fairly successful
in my role as a mother,

but when it came
to keeping house, I was rotten,

and it was a source
of great conflict

between me and Ted. [chuckles]

Because I did not really like
accepting that my destiny

was to keep the house clean, and...

And I had nobody to talk to.

There was nobody
that I could speak to

about things
that really concerned me.

I was friendly with some
of the women around there,

but all that one
can really speak about was

babies and labor pains, and...

cooking and stuff. [chuckles]
And, well, that...

that... that interested me
to some degree, there's a limit.

Interviewer: But, politics, no.

Joan: Absolutely not.

[soft music concludes]

[dramatic music playing]

Presenter: One of the greatest
peacetime spy dramas

in the nation's history
reaches its climax

as Julius Rosenberg
and Mrs. Ethel Rosenberg,

who, with her husband,
was convicted

of actually transmitting
the secrets to Russia

through Soviet diplomatic channels,

enter the Federal Building
in New York to hear their doom.

It is a stern jurist they face
in Judge Irving Kaufman.

He sentenced both Rosenbergs
to death in the electric chair.

It is the first time
in peacetime

that such a death penalty
has been handed down,

and while appeals to the
highest courts are planned,

it certainly appears
that the spies

are headed along
a one-way street.

When the verdict came down,
and they were

sentenced to be executed...

we didn't know
what was going to happen.

Knowing Ted, he felt kind of
responsible in a...

funny kind of way.
He was doing it,

and he was getting off
at the moment scot-free.

And he told me beforehand
that he was going to offer

to confess his role in the hope
of saving their lives.

I told him absolutely don't be
silly, it wouldn't save them,

and it would destroy us.

And he accepted
my view of things.

So he gave up the quixotic idea
of sacrificing his life,

and my life, and Ruthie's life

for the salvation
of the Rosenbergs,

which probably
wouldn't have happened anyway.

The night of the execution,
we were invited to a party.

It was an invitation
from my department head

and something that

would be very, very,
very strange to refuse.

[scoffs] I put on my
most decent dress,

and we got into the car
and drove out.

[Mahler playing over radio]

Joan: We had the radio on,

it was playing
a Mahler Symphony,

which, for Ted, had always had
a very profound...

link with him somehow,

and later with me,
when he played it for me.

It was the last movement
of the Ninth Symphony,

which is a farewell.

As it happens,
our route from our house

to their house took us
right past Sing Sing.

It was pretty close.

Joan:
The execution was planned.

It had to be before sunset

to comply with
some kind of Jewish law.

And the combination
of this music,

and what we knew was going on

a few miles away from us,
was, uh, an experience.

It was excruciating,
it was excruciating.

We both sat there, like,
I don't know what,

looking into space
and hanging onto ourselves.

We didn't speak.

And we got up to the party,

and we went in and there were
all these people laughing

and drinking and...

hanging around
in garden chairs and so on.

And, at the earliest possible,
decent moment,

we made an escape
and drove home.

But we didn't talk about it.
There was nothing to say.

Ted: And it certainly, uh,
brought home the fact that

there were flames
consuming people,

and that we were pretty close
to being consumed.

[somber music playing]

Ted: It could easily
be imagined.

Joan: One of
the traumatic things about it

was the jubilation
expressed by large swathes

of the American population,
and of course,

the morbid...

fascination of the media with
the details of these deaths.

[somber music continues]

Joan: It was hideous,
it was really, really awful.

You think the United States
is an ugly place now,

it was worse then.

But after that, we felt that
getting out of the United States

into a foreign country
would be less menacing for us,

but it wasn't
the one deciding factor.

Ruthie finished
elementary school,

and she would have
been absolutely wrong for

junior high school,
it would've been wrong for her.

She was a...[chuckles]
...very intellectual child,

and she didn't go for
all the girly stuff

that people went for.

The whole lipstick
and high heels

and that kind of crap
just didn't appeal to her.

I was fascinated
with the idea of going abroad.

I was always
fascinated with Europe.

He went to a conference
in New York,

and which was attended
by Dr. Cosslett,

who was head of
the electron microscope section

at the Cavendish Lab
in Cambridge.

And they discussed whether
Ted could come to Cambridge

on a one-year contract,
and create an instrument

with localizing elements
within organic tissue.

The idea
of going to Cambridge,

the idea of doing
that particular research,

all caught the imagination
of both of us,

and we decided to come.

Interviewer: You were 12 when
you moved here, was that hard?

- It was wonderful.
- [Sara chuckles]

Ruth: It was a big adventure.
We didn't fly here.

We came over on the Queen Mary.

Sara: Mm-hmm.

I mean, here was this new world
where you could be an atheist

and say so. [chuckles]
You know.

And communist, even,
wasn't a dirty word.

When we moved here,
it was different.

She took up her life again.

You know, she wasn't at home,
but thank goodness for her,

you know, she went back
to do a degree,

and then ended up teaching,

but yeah,
Italian Russian literature.

All my grandparents
were Russian.

They spoke Russian
between themselves,

and I felt that I had been
cheated out of it somehow,

and I wanted to recover it.

And so I studied
the Russian language

and Russian literature
with great enjoyment.

Since you have to do
two languages at Cambridge,

Italian was my second language.

I taught Italian for 20 years.

Interviewer: So you enjoyed it?

Joan: Oh, very much.

[chuckles]

This was, uh, what he sent

to the Harvard University
Alumni Association.

"Dear Report Chairman,

my wife and I have
three children.

She teaches Italian language
and literature in a college

and I am doing technical work

in biology and physics
in the university here.

I do not believe

there is anything worth noting
in our personal histories."

One of the people we interviewed
was a retired CIA agent

named Cleveland Cram.

Cram said the FBI
put up the Brits

to come and interview Ted.

They came and said,
"Well, we're not the FBI."

"You can talk to us freely."

Joan: And they told him,
"We know what you've done,

now why don't you
just come clean?

Think how much better
you'll feel."

And Ted was very much tempted.

Because he didn't like to lie,

but he wisely told the guy
he'd have to think about it.

He came home,

and we were walking
along Grantchester Street,

I remember, and he told me

he was sort of tempted
to do that,

and I stopped in my tracks,

and I said,
"You will tell them nothing!"

And he says, "Do you think so?"
I said, "Absolutely."

"You stick to your story.
You had nothing to do with it."

And he said, "All right,
if that's what you think,

that's what I'll do."

I mean, they were hand-in-glove
with the FBI,

and it would have been
a disaster.

Joseph: What his career,

what his achievements
might have been like,

had he not been a Soviet spy
at Los Alamos.

He spent ten years
at Sloan Kettering

trying to cure cancer.

He was one of the pioneers of
science of electron microscopy.

Ted Hall was a man
with a remarkable mind.

Sarah: My father
explained everything to me

when I was 12 or 13.

What he had done,
and what his motive was.

So, I listened
and I respected it,

but I didn't sit around
thinking about it a lot.

I mean, I was 12.[chuckles]

Sarah: I had other things
on my mind.

- Interviewer: Was he proud?
- I think so.

I think he was,
and I think he also, like,

had some self-doubt
that he didn't express,

and some concern
about what he had done,

like whether it was the right
thing or the wrong thing,

but he never admitted to that.

Boria: My parents
constantly had FBI agents, um,

posted outside their house,

and people
going through their garbage,

and their phones tapped,

and, well, uh...
a lot of the paranoia, and...

Interviewer: So, when he
told you about the spying,

did you believe him?

No. [laughs] No, I didn't.

I just mostly just banished
the idea from my mind,

until a Washington Post
reporter called me

and told me
that he'd found that out.

Well, uh, he... he'd been dead
for a while.

And um... I, uh...

I felt... completely exhausted,

totally drained,
utterly devastated.

Crowd: [chanting] Free
our sisters! Free ourselves!

Free our sisters!
Free ourselves!

- Woman: What do we want?
- Crowd: Equal pay!

- Woman: What do we want?
- Crowd: Liberation!

Joan: It was just towards
the end of the '60s

when the feminist movement
came along,

and I was totally
committed to that.

I joined the first feminist
group I could find.

Crowd: [chanting]

They had started
a Marxist study group,

in which
we were reading Capital,

page by page,
out loud and discussing it.

Wow, was that valuable.

And that gave me a much better
idea than I had before

of what Marx was all about.

We were Marxist
and communist in our thinking.

But we did become aware
of the fact

that the Russians didn't seem
to give much support

to revolutionary tendencies
in other countries.

Reporter: In the Czech capital,
thousands rejoiced

in their newfound
free way of life.

But the Red Army was back.

Joan: And the tanks rolled
into Czechoslovakia.

Reporter: The hammer
and sickle had returned

to a pound and cut
the Czechs' hopes

of a liberal self-governing
communist way of life.

Joan: They seemed to be running
their own communist empire.

I mean, these things
were really traumatic.

Interviewer: As the arms race
between the Soviet Union

and the United States escalated
to outrageous proportions,

did that feed any regrets

or concerns
about what he'd done?

It certainly confirmed
Ted's view about the dangers

inherent in the way
the United States was being run,

the American military...
the military industrial complex,

as Eisenhower sweetly put it.

We have been compelled to create

a permanent armaments industry
of vast proportions,

the acquisition
of unwarranted influence

by the military industrial complex.

[ominous music playing]

Joan: The arms race
was a complete farce

at the expense
of the American people.

The American military
perpetrated this notion

of parity, that we had
to keep up with the Russians,

we had to outstrip them,

we had to make more bombs
than they did. But the fact is,

if the United States
had 100 atomic bombs,

and the Soviets
had 110 atomic bombs,

the deterrent effect
would still hold.

One bomb was enough
to cause a world catastrophe.

Reporter: With atomic warheads,

guided missiles traveling
at 3,000 miles an hour

will bring still another
dimension to global warfare.

Daniel: The U.S. was
always considerably ahead.

The goal of the U.S.
was to try to be so far ahead

that it could carry out
a first strike

against the Soviet Union,

and not suffer
too much of a response.

That's why both sides

have so many different types
of nuclear weapons

mounted on so many different
delivery systems.

[reporter speaking Russian]

Man: [translating in English]
Objectives deep

in enemy territory
will be destroyed

by intercontinental
ballistic missiles.

All situations on land
and in the air are being met.

It would be better now
to restrict the term Cold War

to refer to the war
which is being waged

by militarism, against
the population of the earth.

I think I judge him

much more charitably now
than I did initially.

Through my younger years,
I was very angry at Savy.

Part of the reason why
I wrote my book, Stealing Fire,

was to lay that anger aside.

Ted had the sort of accomplishments

that Savy aspired to,

but it was very difficult
for him to match.

For Savy, this was
his big accomplishment,

and I think, he felt that

Ted had sort of stolen
even that from him.

Ted had taken his glory,
Ted had taken his girl,

and Ted had
so much else besides.

Sarah: Okay, this is a sculpture

that I did of my father, um...

Also, like when,
when people die,

I start painting and drawing
and sculpting them. [chuckles]

It's kind of my...
part of my grieving process.

I made it
on a papier-mâché core,

and I felt that the crumbling
kind of also showed

his depression
and some lack of fulfillment

in certain regards.

We've had
to move around a lot.

My grandfather bought
this property in the '30s.

Savy used to love this river

that runs through
this property here.

And his ashes were scattered
in the river.

And I made this portrait
of like, him in the water.

More than him being a spy,
he was my father.

And I feel that
he deserves my loyalty.

Ruth: I remember
the Cuban Missile Crisis,

and there was
a demonstration going past

of loads of people,
like, "Don't bomb."

And I was there tugging
at Ted's arm, saying,

"Come on, come on." You know,
"What are you waiting for?"

- You know, "Come!"
- Sara: Yeah.

I remember him standing there
just standing stock still,

just standing, then he said,
"What the hell?"

And he took me by the arm,

and we went and we joined
the demonstration.

Mmm.

And I couldn't understand.

Sara:
That's the thing,

the way that
I looked at Joanie and Teddy.

Growing up, I had known them

to be utterly
through and through...

um, desiring a better world...

and believing that
a revolution was necessary...

but not acting,

- not actually being activists.
- Ruth: Yeah.

And so growing up
as a teenager,

I was a bit scornful.

- Ruth: Scornful?
- A little bit.

You know, all the talk, and...
but what are they doing?

- Ruth: Right.
- Sara: When I was about 20,

listening to the radio one day,

I heard a program, by chance,
about the Manhattan Project.

And, um, I listened to it

and then I phoned up
and I asked Teddy,

I said, "I've just heard
this radio program."

[chuckles] "Were you there?"

Ruth: [laughs] God!

So, he said, "Yes."

- Pause.
- Ruth: Pause. [chuckles]

And he said, "Yes,"
and he explained to me

that he had...

um...

The motivation was to develop
the bomb before the Germans.

That was how
he justified doing it.

Ruth: Well, that was
the reason he did it.

Yes, that's right,
and he told me

about how he'd felt
when they tested it...

Ruth: Right.

...and how he...
People had been celebrating

and he felt really awful

and he had
just gone back to his room.

Ruth: Yeah.

I just thought,
"Shit, he's human." [chuckles]

You know, he's been involved
in designing and making

the most horrendous thing
on earth,

and not something
to be proud of.

I didn't know
that he'd mitigated it,

by making sure
that it was shared information.

Ruth: Right.

- And it never occurred to me.
- Ruth: Yeah.

And then when they told me,

the penny dropped. Everything...

[clicks tongue]

- Oh.
- Ruth: [chuckles]

Hmm.

So it made sense of...

It made sense of their life,
of our life, of...

[Sara sobs]

Joan: There are elements
of the best parts of Ted

in all of my three kids.

And the things I loved
about him, I love in them.

Sara, being excessively modest

and didn't like being
compared to her sisters,

and still doesn't,

tended to reject all things

that would make her look
as if she was shining.

Debbie became a young Maoist,

early in the game
when China was the good guys.

She did a lot of
anti-Vietnam War campaigning.

She circulated petitions,
she went on marches,

anything anybody was doing,
she did it.

And studied the violin,

and played years...
years beyond her age.

[violin music playing]

Joan: She was...
she was a phenomenon.

Interviewer: Did you tend
to look at Debbie in particular

as sort of becoming the activist

that you had maybe hoped
you could have been?

I could never
have been like her. [laughs]

She was a ball of fire.

I never could have been
like her, but yeah, she was...

Part of me wanted her to...

just concentrate
on her wonderful abilities.

Interviewer:

Hmm.

Sara: Just before Debbie died,
Joanie was painting...

- Right.
- ...but she stopped dead...

[chuckles]
...completely stopped.

Ruth: You know,
I think losing a child,

anybody who has a child,

and many people
who don't, can imagine.

Joan: Ted wrote
in the 50th Anniversary Report

of the Harvard class of 1944.

[clears throat]

"I'm afflicted
with Parkinson's disease,

and an inoperable cancer,

and I recently
experienced the death

of a dearly loved daughter.

Some of the horrors
in the world,

in the world scene
are incomprehensible,

but life still seems
amazing and beautiful."

Yes, I think that's amazing
and beautiful.

Marcia:
At the time, I think he thought

that he was not going to live
to see this book written,

and I think that he looked
at this as a way to explain

what he had done,
who he was, and why.

[somber music playing]

Joan: So that was
the first blast of publicity,

and there were cameras outside,

and I tried
to send them packing.

The "wunderkind spy,"
I called it. [chuckles]

And yeah,
they were all excited

about this young, young guy.

Well, he was young.

I mean,
the tabloids were worse.

The other papers reported it

in the usual objective style

that the newspapers claim
to have, which they don't.

I've got a great big stash
of clippings upstairs, which...

Interviewer: I would like
to see them...

By all means,
you can have them

and throw them down your loo
when you're finished.

It didn't cause us to weep,
I'll tell you.

We were disgusted, but...

it didn't hit us
where we lived, no.

Interviewer: And why is that?

We knew they were
bastards, you know.

Interviewer: What should have
been done with Ted Hall?

Shot.

He was a military man.

He was a soldier
in the United States Army.

And that son of a bitch
should have been retrieved,

once we found out
what he had done...

called back into the army,

court-martialed,
and summarily executed.

Interviewer:
How do you personally feel

about what you did?

I have to think, I know that

my body is, uh, disintegrating

rather slowly
and gracefully, I hope,

but I have to think in terms
of its finiteness...

And then I... I have
to think that, well, that...

that's my history
and that's it, it doesn't...

It would be nice to be proud,

but I'm not... I'm... I'm not...
I'm not a proud person.

Interviewer:
What made you do it?

[scoffs, laughs]

I guess a major factor
would be compassion.

It's a stab
at a description anyway.

[pensive music playing]

Joan: He had been in and out
of hospital a few times.

As things got worse,

they offered this treatment,
that treatment and so on.

At one point, I went home,

to get some dinner
and get some sleep.

Around 7:30,
the telephone rang

and the nurse told me
that about 15 minutes before,

he had passed away.

[sighs]

I went right away...

and came into the room,
talking to him...

about how much I loved him,

and continued smothering my...

my dead Ted with love and...
sweet nothings.

"What if I had died instead

and left you here behind,
alone in your 80s?

How would you have lived?

Would you have solved
the riddle

of quantum mechanics?

How would you have
remembered me?

Anyway, you'd surely
have married again,

one of those women
who loved you and envied me.

And for long years
of Indian summer,

you would drive along together

and talk in the car and in bed,

while my gray ashes

melted silently into the earth

under the tall tree
in the park.

Ah, now I'm jealous.
I want to be your second wife."

Joan: In my walking days,
when I used to walk to town,

passing by this tree,

people used to look at me funny

because I would stop
and talk to it.

[chuckles]

And I did explain to one of them
that my husband's ashes

- were buried under there.
- [chuckles]

It's lovely
how the trunk goes up

in the center of that.

This tree is quite exceptional.
It's huge, but very graceful.

Ruth: Yeah, it's amazing.

Joan: It really is a tree
that reminds me of Teddy

because its sturdiness
with grace is sort of him.

Yeah, and he loved it.

And he loved it.
He absolutely loved this tree.

Interviewer:
Is there anything specific

you want to say
to the next generation?

Oh, wow. [chuckles]

I think the next generation, um...

should realize,
should have to realize

that the world
has come extremely close

to real... actual... Sorry.

[sobs]

I didn't expect that.

[sighs]

The world has come
extremely close

to real actual total disaster.

Catastrophe.

And that, um...

And that people,

not the government,
but people must...

be concerned
about these things,

and be prepared to insist,
to demand,

to compel government policies,

which don't put the world
at risk again.

Interviewer:
Thank you very much.

♪ ["Violin Sonata No. 24 -
II. Andante" by Mozart Plays] ♪

[music concludes]