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- Throughout history,
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there have been
universal characters
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that we told stories about
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as a way of demonstrating morals
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00:00:15,852 --> 00:00:18,394
or challenges that you face.
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00:00:18,492 --> 00:00:20,529
There were religious characters,
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mythic characters,
kings and queens.
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Superheroes are
what they are now,
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00:00:27,735 --> 00:00:29,939
and it's why I believe
in them as much as I do.
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- Heroism is just very simple.
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Anytime somebody uses courage
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when they're afraid
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in the name of something good.
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- In the movies,
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superheroes are icons of virtue,
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00:00:47,021 --> 00:00:49,258
symbols of our highest ideals.
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00:00:49,357 --> 00:00:50,867
- I got really obsessed
with the comics,
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00:00:50,891 --> 00:00:53,596
obviously, once I started
doing the research.
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And I love them.
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00:00:55,297 --> 00:00:56,741
- Oh, I still play with
action figures, man,
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00:00:56,765 --> 00:00:57,934
all the time.
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00:00:58,027 --> 00:00:59,468
- There isn't a day that goes by
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00:00:59,567 --> 00:01:01,837
when you don't walk past
someone in a Batman T-shirt.
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00:01:01,936 --> 00:01:04,173
- But the leap
from page to screen
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00:01:04,271 --> 00:01:08,344
took decades and a
lot of persuasion.
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00:01:08,443 --> 00:01:09,946
- A huge part of why
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00:01:10,044 --> 00:01:12,181
there were so few
comic book adaptations
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00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:14,117
in the '80s and '90s
is you had a lot
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00:01:14,210 --> 00:01:15,755
of people in Hollywood
that didn't believe
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00:01:15,779 --> 00:01:17,286
in the source material.
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00:01:17,385 --> 00:01:19,388
- Studio execs, they
looked down their nose
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00:01:19,487 --> 00:01:23,087
at the creators and said
comic book characters
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00:01:23,190 --> 00:01:24,693
didn't have much value.
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00:01:24,792 --> 00:01:27,763
- As Hollywood learned
to make superheroes fly,
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00:01:27,862 --> 00:01:29,565
passionate creators
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00:01:29,663 --> 00:01:32,335
transformed comics
from child's play
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00:01:32,434 --> 00:01:36,100
to sophisticated
entertainment for grown-ups.
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00:01:36,203 --> 00:01:38,574
- People who are too
precious about the characters
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00:01:38,673 --> 00:01:41,477
are never going to
stretch the boundaries.
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00:01:41,576 --> 00:01:45,648
- There was something about
the writing and the art.
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00:01:45,746 --> 00:01:48,584
It was just so smart and daring.
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00:01:50,318 --> 00:01:52,355
- That rebellious spirit
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00:01:52,453 --> 00:01:54,890
plus the devotion
of lifelong fans,
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00:01:54,989 --> 00:01:57,121
pushed superheroes to the center
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00:01:57,225 --> 00:01:58,594
of popular culture
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00:01:58,692 --> 00:02:01,998
and our collective imagination.
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00:02:02,095 --> 00:02:05,034
- What would it be like
if I could be a hero,
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00:02:05,133 --> 00:02:07,036
if I could change the world?
49
00:02:07,134 --> 00:02:09,973
That's at the core of
the superhero stories.
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00:02:10,071 --> 00:02:12,942
There's something
in our moral compass
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00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:17,646
that tells us it's OK to want
to fight for what's right.
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00:02:17,745 --> 00:02:21,050
That's really the power.
That's really being super.
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00:02:35,997 --> 00:02:38,467
- The first superhero to
get a screen adaptation
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00:02:38,566 --> 00:02:41,004
was not the one you might think.
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00:02:41,101 --> 00:02:44,073
Captain Marvel had all
of Superman's powers
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00:02:44,172 --> 00:02:46,742
and outsold him in the 1940s.
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00:02:46,841 --> 00:02:48,611
The comic told
the story of a boy
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00:02:48,710 --> 00:02:51,047
who could turn into a superhero
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00:02:51,146 --> 00:02:52,215
with a single word.
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00:02:52,313 --> 00:02:54,750
- Shazam!
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00:02:54,848 --> 00:02:58,387
- And in 1941, Captain
Marvel starred in his own
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00:02:58,486 --> 00:03:00,289
12-part movie serial
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00:03:00,388 --> 00:03:02,358
that transfixed young audiences
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00:03:02,457 --> 00:03:04,188
at Saturday matinees.
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00:03:04,291 --> 00:03:07,796
But it would take 78 years, a
name change, and a short run
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00:03:07,895 --> 00:03:11,567
at TV before Captain Marvel
made it to the multiplex
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00:03:11,667 --> 00:03:16,940
in 2019 as "Shazam."
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00:03:17,038 --> 00:03:19,542
The film revived
the timeless tale
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of a powerless child who becomes
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a superpowered adult.
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- Shazam!
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00:03:27,482 --> 00:03:29,052
- In everyone's
life at some point,
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00:03:29,149 --> 00:03:32,688
we had dreams of becoming
something like a superhero.
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Stronger or faster or
more heroic in the world.
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- All hands on deck.
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00:03:37,592 --> 00:03:39,223
Shazam!
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00:03:40,795 --> 00:03:43,799
- This movie's touching
base with that inner child
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00:03:43,899 --> 00:03:45,768
in all of us.
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00:03:47,368 --> 00:03:49,372
- Roll, please! Rolling!
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00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,444
- All right, fam-jam,
you know what time it is.
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00:03:55,543 --> 00:03:57,446
Let's jump in. Let's jump in.
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So going into the second movie,
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00:03:59,647 --> 00:04:01,592
this was one of my favorite
sets I've ever been on,
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of any project I've
ever worked on.
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00:04:03,618 --> 00:04:05,588
- Mary, why do you
even have a job?
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00:04:05,686 --> 00:04:07,123
You think Wonder
Woman has a job?
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00:04:07,222 --> 00:04:08,424
- Stop.
- No, no, seriously.
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00:04:08,522 --> 00:04:09,825
Do you think she
wears a ponytail
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00:04:09,924 --> 00:04:11,535
and glasses and, like,
nobody recognizes her
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00:04:11,559 --> 00:04:12,904
and she's, like, an
accountant or something?
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00:04:12,928 --> 00:04:14,030
- Just stop.
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00:04:14,129 --> 00:04:15,539
- It's a really fun
role to play because
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00:04:15,563 --> 00:04:16,933
I just get to keep being a kid.
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00:04:17,031 --> 00:04:19,635
Who are you people?
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00:04:19,734 --> 00:04:21,737
- I said don't freak
out! Look at me.
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00:04:21,835 --> 00:04:23,539
And video games kind of keeps me
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00:04:23,638 --> 00:04:25,808
in that childish play
mode, and I think
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00:04:25,907 --> 00:04:29,245
that when your job is
to play as a child,
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00:04:29,344 --> 00:04:32,881
then you want to kind of
stay in that playful place.
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00:04:35,749 --> 00:04:37,520
This shouldn't feel like work.
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00:04:37,618 --> 00:04:38,863
We're playing dress
up and make believe,
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00:04:38,887 --> 00:04:40,823
and we're getting paid for it.
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00:04:40,921 --> 00:04:42,425
That was one of
the greatest things
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00:04:42,524 --> 00:04:44,360
about the first movie
was hearing people
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walk out of the theater
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00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:47,200
and they just felt
better about life.
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00:04:47,229 --> 00:04:48,364
They just felt lighter.
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00:04:48,463 --> 00:04:50,599
There's so much that is wrong
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00:04:50,698 --> 00:04:52,969
with this world right now,
and we have opportunities
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00:04:53,067 --> 00:04:55,171
as artists and as creators
and as entertainers
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00:04:55,270 --> 00:04:56,639
to help lift that burden
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00:04:56,737 --> 00:04:58,874
just a little bit,
man, just a little bit.
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00:04:58,973 --> 00:05:01,277
We need to 'cause it's
dark out right now.
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00:05:03,778 --> 00:05:06,682
- 50 years before Shazam
made it to the big screen,
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00:05:06,781 --> 00:05:10,314
the world stood at a
different precipice.
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00:05:16,191 --> 00:05:19,295
- As a young person,
it just felt like
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00:05:19,393 --> 00:05:21,730
there was no answer anywhere.
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00:05:21,830 --> 00:05:23,632
What do you do in the world
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00:05:23,731 --> 00:05:26,502
when there is a
prevailing culture
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00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:28,571
where the enemy is
sometimes faceless?
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00:05:28,669 --> 00:05:31,874
How do you fight that fight?
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00:05:31,973 --> 00:05:35,912
- And that's when I was
beginning to feel like
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00:05:36,011 --> 00:05:38,514
I was outgrowing my comic books.
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00:05:38,613 --> 00:05:40,984
And just at that time,
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00:05:41,082 --> 00:05:44,853
the Marvel age
really truly erupted.
126
00:05:44,952 --> 00:05:47,456
- As Marvel launched its
first Black superhero
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00:05:47,550 --> 00:05:49,959
and took on pressing
social problems,
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00:05:50,057 --> 00:05:53,529
the campy shenanigans
of Adam West's "Batman"
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00:05:53,628 --> 00:05:56,699
felt out of step and
painfully square.
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00:05:56,797 --> 00:05:59,668
- At that moment in
time in the mid '60s,
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00:05:59,762 --> 00:06:02,972
except to the few of us who
were real comic book readers,
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00:06:03,070 --> 00:06:07,143
the world perception of what
Batman was was this show.
133
00:06:07,242 --> 00:06:09,845
And that was what
was so disturbing
134
00:06:09,939 --> 00:06:11,375
to me about it,
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00:06:11,479 --> 00:06:15,284
and I made a vow,
somehow, someday,
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00:06:15,383 --> 00:06:19,188
some way I am going to show
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00:06:19,287 --> 00:06:21,057
the world the true Batman.
138
00:06:21,155 --> 00:06:24,093
- Young fans like Uslan,
driven by their deep love
139
00:06:24,191 --> 00:06:26,963
of the characters and
devotion to the medium,
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00:06:27,060 --> 00:06:30,299
would start a new age
in American comics.
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00:06:30,398 --> 00:06:33,102
- Every generation
deserves to have characters
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00:06:33,201 --> 00:06:35,671
that fit within
their generation.
143
00:06:35,769 --> 00:06:39,308
So being kids of the '60s,
we had wanted very much
144
00:06:39,407 --> 00:06:42,611
to do some important stories.
145
00:06:42,710 --> 00:06:44,747
- It wasn't like
we were the future
146
00:06:44,845 --> 00:06:47,050
Young Turks plotting
a revolution,
147
00:06:47,149 --> 00:06:49,152
but on the other hand,
we were the Young Turks
148
00:06:49,250 --> 00:06:50,319
plotting the revolution.
149
00:06:50,418 --> 00:06:51,587
We were looking to what
150
00:06:51,685 --> 00:06:53,189
the future of the
field could be.
151
00:06:53,288 --> 00:06:55,858
- Writer Denny O'Neil
and artist Neal Adams
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00:06:55,957 --> 00:06:58,794
set out to change
the comics landscape
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00:06:58,893 --> 00:07:01,664
by putting the real
world in their panels.
154
00:07:01,762 --> 00:07:05,634
- They took two superheroes
who were really failing.
155
00:07:08,803 --> 00:07:11,707
Green Arrow representing
a liberal outlook,
156
00:07:11,806 --> 00:07:14,177
and Green Lantern with
a conservative outlook
157
00:07:14,275 --> 00:07:16,913
get in a pickup truck
and hit the road
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00:07:17,012 --> 00:07:19,215
to try to discover America.
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00:07:19,314 --> 00:07:23,286
- Over 14 installments,
Green Lantern and Green Arrow
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00:07:23,385 --> 00:07:25,688
come face to face with
big national issues,
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00:07:25,787 --> 00:07:29,792
like overpopulation,
discrimination,
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00:07:29,891 --> 00:07:33,696
pollution, and drug addiction.
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00:07:33,789 --> 00:07:36,132
- We both grew up at the
time that we grew up,
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00:07:36,231 --> 00:07:39,702
and we were very
angry at society.
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00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:41,737
That was a time of
change, remember the '60s,
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00:07:41,835 --> 00:07:44,974
big changes in America,
and that was right there
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00:07:45,073 --> 00:07:47,376
in that comic book.
Bam, right in your face.
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00:07:47,475 --> 00:07:51,414
- That was a turning
point for DC Comics
169
00:07:51,512 --> 00:07:52,916
that began to be reflected
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00:07:53,015 --> 00:07:55,479
in other comics and other heroes
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00:07:55,583 --> 00:07:57,286
and being daring and being bold.
172
00:07:57,385 --> 00:08:00,523
- Legendary Marvel
artist Jack Kirby
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00:08:00,622 --> 00:08:02,625
came to DC in 1970
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00:08:02,718 --> 00:08:05,694
to write his spiritual
saga "New Gods."
175
00:08:07,595 --> 00:08:10,399
- It was basically his epic,
his retelling of the Bible.
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This is how everything began.
177
00:08:11,799 --> 00:08:13,169
This is how it's
all going to end.
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00:08:13,267 --> 00:08:15,438
This is what good is.
This is what evil is.
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00:08:15,531 --> 00:08:16,940
Every page has 1,000 concepts
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00:08:17,037 --> 00:08:18,741
that could launch
1,000 story ships.
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00:08:18,839 --> 00:08:21,911
It's the most inspiring
piece of art ever.
182
00:08:22,009 --> 00:08:25,881
- In 1972, Len Wein
and Bernie Wrightson
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00:08:25,980 --> 00:08:30,619
grafted the soul of a hero
to the body of a monster,
184
00:08:30,719 --> 00:08:33,156
with "Swamp Thing."
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00:08:33,254 --> 00:08:36,292
- Wrightson's art
was just emotional
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00:08:36,390 --> 00:08:39,562
and weird and beautiful
all at the same time.
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00:08:39,660 --> 00:08:43,900
And Len's writing had what
I call a pulp poetry to it.
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00:08:43,999 --> 00:08:45,801
It's a classic that,
for me, still stands
189
00:08:45,900 --> 00:08:47,511
as one of the very
best things that's come
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00:08:47,535 --> 00:08:49,238
out of DC in all these years.
191
00:08:49,337 --> 00:08:52,275
- But in a shortsighted
attempt to modernize
192
00:08:52,373 --> 00:08:55,111
a member of the DC
pantheon, male editors
193
00:08:55,210 --> 00:08:57,914
stripped Wonder Woman
of her superpowers
194
00:08:58,013 --> 00:09:00,984
and trained her in Kung Fu.
195
00:09:01,083 --> 00:09:03,152
- They had made her
give up her costume,
196
00:09:03,251 --> 00:09:06,923
and she was gonna be
Groovy Diana Prince.
197
00:09:07,022 --> 00:09:09,192
She's like a spy.
She's modern.
198
00:09:09,291 --> 00:09:10,960
She's groovy.
199
00:09:11,058 --> 00:09:13,529
And I was like, "I don't want
to read this comic book."
200
00:09:13,627 --> 00:09:15,131
- What do you want?
- ERA!
201
00:09:15,230 --> 00:09:17,233
- When do you want it?
- Now!
202
00:09:17,332 --> 00:09:19,235
- DC's blunder
caught the attention
203
00:09:19,334 --> 00:09:21,670
of a rising leader in
the feminist movement,
204
00:09:21,770 --> 00:09:23,372
Gloria Steinem.
205
00:09:23,471 --> 00:09:26,709
- Wonder Woman was
very feminist and ruled
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00:09:26,808 --> 00:09:30,013
with strength and
justice and love
207
00:09:30,110 --> 00:09:33,616
and was meant to be an
antidote to the violence
208
00:09:33,716 --> 00:09:36,219
in male-dominated comics.
209
00:09:36,317 --> 00:09:37,795
And we decided it
would be interesting
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00:09:37,819 --> 00:09:39,022
to run her for president.
211
00:09:39,121 --> 00:09:40,856
So it says "Peace
and justice in '72."
212
00:09:40,954 --> 00:09:44,293
- Since you brought it up,
wave it in that camera.
213
00:09:44,392 --> 00:09:46,729
- The debut issue
of "Ms." Magazine
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00:09:46,827 --> 00:09:48,998
featured an essay
about Wonder Woman
215
00:09:49,096 --> 00:09:52,701
as a model of strength
and self-sufficiency.
216
00:09:52,801 --> 00:09:54,737
DC got the memo.
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00:09:54,835 --> 00:09:57,974
Wonder Woman got her mojo back,
218
00:09:58,071 --> 00:10:00,910
and a few years later,
ABC started looking
219
00:10:01,008 --> 00:10:03,279
for the perfect actress
to bring the mythic figure
220
00:10:03,378 --> 00:10:05,281
to life on TV.
221
00:10:05,379 --> 00:10:08,384
- I really got to
create my character.
222
00:10:08,482 --> 00:10:10,519
There was nothing before me.
223
00:10:10,618 --> 00:10:14,618
And I had no idea
what I was doing.
224
00:10:14,722 --> 00:10:17,226
So there was a certain naivete.
225
00:10:17,325 --> 00:10:21,730
I did a lot of exploration
on the mythology
226
00:10:21,829 --> 00:10:24,000
and what I could bring
to this character.
227
00:10:24,099 --> 00:10:26,970
And it wasn't
really on the page.
228
00:10:27,068 --> 00:10:29,838
It was people like
Betty Friedan,
229
00:10:29,937 --> 00:10:34,043
Gloria Steinem, and
the suffragists.
230
00:10:34,142 --> 00:10:39,682
I am woman, hear me
roar kind of feminism,
231
00:10:39,781 --> 00:10:42,685
that was Wonder Woman.
232
00:10:47,689 --> 00:10:50,093
- โช Wonder Woman โช
233
00:10:50,190 --> 00:10:53,997
- In the fall of 1975,
Carter's iconic "Wonder Woman"
234
00:10:54,094 --> 00:10:56,966
blazed onto TV screens,
setting young hearts
235
00:10:57,065 --> 00:10:59,235
across the nation on fire.
236
00:10:59,334 --> 00:11:01,905
- There had not
been a role model
237
00:11:02,004 --> 00:11:03,839
that you could emulate.
238
00:11:03,939 --> 00:11:05,274
And I was right at the age where
239
00:11:05,373 --> 00:11:07,510
pretending to be someone
on the playground yard
240
00:11:07,610 --> 00:11:09,212
was a huge deal.
241
00:11:09,310 --> 00:11:11,283
All of the kids would run out,
and they would be Superman
242
00:11:11,307 --> 00:11:12,281
or they'd be He-Man
243
00:11:12,380 --> 00:11:14,250
or they'd be
something like that.
244
00:11:14,349 --> 00:11:16,652
And when "Wonder
Woman" came out,
245
00:11:16,751 --> 00:11:18,554
it was such a revelation.
246
00:11:22,523 --> 00:11:24,688
That suddenly, you
were desperate to be
247
00:11:24,792 --> 00:11:27,230
the one that claimed that
you were Wonder Woman.
248
00:11:29,163 --> 00:11:31,100
I got a chance to experience
249
00:11:31,199 --> 00:11:32,868
exactly what the boys
were experiencing,
250
00:11:32,967 --> 00:11:35,699
not in a boy-like way.
251
00:11:37,270 --> 00:11:40,376
I was having my own
absolute wish fulfillment.
252
00:11:40,474 --> 00:11:43,980
- You can all be what
you truly want to be.
253
00:11:44,079 --> 00:11:46,415
You're all very special.
254
00:11:47,643 --> 00:11:50,053
And you're all different.
255
00:11:50,151 --> 00:11:52,221
- Lynda was like the every woman
256
00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:53,957
that you wished you could be.
257
00:11:54,055 --> 00:11:56,292
- I never played Wonder Woman.
258
00:11:56,391 --> 00:11:58,527
I only played Diana.
259
00:11:58,627 --> 00:12:01,664
The key to Wonder Woman
260
00:12:01,757 --> 00:12:06,469
is that she, as
Diana, was relatable.
261
00:12:08,002 --> 00:12:09,505
- Lynda Carter is
famous for inventing
262
00:12:09,604 --> 00:12:11,248
the spin where she
turned from Diana Prince
263
00:12:11,272 --> 00:12:13,176
to Wonder Woman on the TV show.
264
00:12:13,274 --> 00:12:15,644
With the explosion of light
and the transformation
265
00:12:15,738 --> 00:12:17,981
from one sort of neat character
266
00:12:18,079 --> 00:12:20,516
to this powerful superhero,
267
00:12:20,614 --> 00:12:23,152
I was reminded of the power
268
00:12:23,251 --> 00:12:25,821
to become something
bigger than yourself.
269
00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:27,751
And I think even at a young age,
270
00:12:27,856 --> 00:12:29,192
it was something
that spoke to me.
271
00:12:29,290 --> 00:12:31,060
It was something that
resonated with me.
272
00:12:32,926 --> 00:12:35,965
- It isn't just putting a woman
273
00:12:36,064 --> 00:12:38,902
in a superhero costume.
274
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,638
It's about somehow
convincing the world
275
00:12:42,737 --> 00:12:45,174
that there is a better way.
276
00:12:45,273 --> 00:12:46,851
- You really do believe
that people can learn
277
00:12:46,875 --> 00:12:48,211
to change for the better?
278
00:12:48,311 --> 00:12:49,745
- Yes.
279
00:12:49,844 --> 00:12:51,314
Where I was raised,
we were taught
280
00:12:51,413 --> 00:12:53,983
that good must triumph over evil
281
00:12:54,082 --> 00:12:57,553
and that women
and men can learn.
282
00:12:59,321 --> 00:13:01,657
- "Wonder Woman's"
message of equality
283
00:13:01,755 --> 00:13:04,193
reverberated around the world.
284
00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:09,899
While back at home,
another popular show
285
00:13:09,997 --> 00:13:12,135
fielded a whole
squad of superheroes
286
00:13:12,233 --> 00:13:16,039
whose adventures taught
the value of teamwork.
287
00:13:16,136 --> 00:13:18,174
- In the Great Hall
of the Justice League,
288
00:13:18,273 --> 00:13:20,009
there are assembled
289
00:13:20,108 --> 00:13:21,610
the world's four
greatest heroes.
290
00:13:21,709 --> 00:13:23,846
- "Super Friends" was
TV's first team up
291
00:13:23,945 --> 00:13:25,381
of all of these characters.
292
00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,383
It was the first time
that I'm not just
293
00:13:27,481 --> 00:13:29,093
going to get a Superman
story, and I'm not just
294
00:13:29,117 --> 00:13:30,619
going to get a
Wonder Woman story,
295
00:13:30,718 --> 00:13:32,521
and I'm not just going
to get a Batman story.
296
00:13:32,620 --> 00:13:34,331
I'm gonna get all of
these characters together.
297
00:13:34,355 --> 00:13:35,992
It's kind of
obvious that, right,
298
00:13:36,091 --> 00:13:37,562
that we would all
grow up and want to do
299
00:13:37,586 --> 00:13:39,362
comic book shows and movies.
300
00:13:39,460 --> 00:13:41,430
- But to many comics
readers, the fourth member
301
00:13:41,529 --> 00:13:46,569
of this superhero dream team
still felt like a fifth wheel.
302
00:13:46,668 --> 00:13:48,404
- If my aquatic telepathy
303
00:13:48,503 --> 00:13:50,506
works on these
strange Exxorian fish,
304
00:13:50,605 --> 00:13:54,643
I should be able to
stop Darkon's men.
305
00:13:54,742 --> 00:13:58,314
- Aquaman was considered
a joke of a character,
306
00:13:58,413 --> 00:14:01,384
and I remember when I started
writing the "Aquaman" book,
307
00:14:01,477 --> 00:14:02,618
and people told me,
308
00:14:02,717 --> 00:14:04,397
"Why are you wasting
your time on Aquaman?"
309
00:14:04,485 --> 00:14:06,689
But as a writer, it's
just much more fun to me
310
00:14:06,787 --> 00:14:09,993
to take an obscure character
and crack them open
311
00:14:10,091 --> 00:14:13,529
and look at them and
really get inside them
312
00:14:13,622 --> 00:14:16,265
because it hadn't been done.
313
00:14:16,358 --> 00:14:19,768
If I look at Aquaman and say
if his world and his stories
314
00:14:19,867 --> 00:14:22,271
are as rich and deep
as Batman and Superman
315
00:14:22,370 --> 00:14:26,041
and everyone else,
what are they?
316
00:14:27,375 --> 00:14:30,513
- Geoff Johns' 2011 retelling
of the Aquaman story
317
00:14:30,612 --> 00:14:33,316
filled in the
under-loved hero's world
318
00:14:33,414 --> 00:14:37,220
on land and beneath the sea.
319
00:14:37,318 --> 00:14:39,655
John's book would
become the blueprint
320
00:14:39,755 --> 00:14:41,524
for a 2018 screen adaptation
321
00:14:41,623 --> 00:14:43,759
with a star who bore
little resemblance
322
00:14:43,858 --> 00:14:47,263
to the title character,
at least on the surface.
323
00:14:47,362 --> 00:14:51,034
- And I'm like, "Who? You
want me to play what?"
324
00:14:51,132 --> 00:14:52,868
All I can just think
is "White, white
325
00:14:52,968 --> 00:14:55,804
blonde hair, shaved. Not me."
326
00:14:55,904 --> 00:14:57,184
And they tell me
the whole pitch.
327
00:14:57,272 --> 00:15:01,110
And I was like,
"Wow, hell yeah."
328
00:15:01,209 --> 00:15:02,678
- His father is a
lighthouse keeper,
329
00:15:02,777 --> 00:15:05,814
and his mother is the
queen of Atlantis.
330
00:15:05,913 --> 00:15:09,152
And there's a lot of tension
between these two worlds.
331
00:15:09,250 --> 00:15:11,020
- I mean, that resonated
with me instantly,
332
00:15:11,119 --> 00:15:13,122
being born in Hawaii
and raised in Iowa,
333
00:15:13,221 --> 00:15:15,258
being split between my parents.
334
00:15:15,356 --> 00:15:17,426
- On the land, he
feels like an outsider,
335
00:15:17,525 --> 00:15:20,496
but in Atlantis, he's
the heir to the throne.
336
00:15:20,594 --> 00:15:22,506
- And the only one that
can walk between those two
337
00:15:22,530 --> 00:15:25,101
is myself, and it's the guy
that doesn't want to do it.
338
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:26,720
- How many times do
I have to tell you?
339
00:15:26,768 --> 00:15:28,071
I don't want to be king.
340
00:15:28,170 --> 00:15:29,450
- And he's gotta learn to become
341
00:15:29,537 --> 00:15:31,474
the bridge between
these two worlds
342
00:15:31,572 --> 00:15:34,443
to save the world from
going to war with Atlantis.
343
00:15:36,477 --> 00:15:40,383
- Aquaman needed to get
a little bit of a boost,
344
00:15:40,481 --> 00:15:43,252
and so I played it
completely different.
345
00:15:43,351 --> 00:15:45,821
- Here we go. And action.
346
00:15:48,489 --> 00:15:51,460
- Bang. I hope we
can get it all.
347
00:15:52,994 --> 00:15:54,197
He's a brawler.
348
00:15:54,295 --> 00:15:55,932
He's someone that just headbutts
349
00:15:56,031 --> 00:15:58,634
and gets in bar fights.
350
00:15:58,733 --> 00:16:01,270
He's blue collar. They're
drinkers, you know?
351
00:16:01,369 --> 00:16:02,906
Not one to talk
about their emotions.
352
00:16:03,005 --> 00:16:05,874
And I resonated with that.
353
00:16:05,969 --> 00:16:07,610
- Your mother always
knew you'd be the one
354
00:16:07,708 --> 00:16:10,513
to unite our two worlds.
- Just stop.
355
00:16:10,612 --> 00:16:12,548
- But also that
weakness, his humanity
356
00:16:12,647 --> 00:16:14,217
is what's going to
make him a king.
357
00:16:14,316 --> 00:16:16,585
- A king fights
only for his nation.
358
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,289
You fight for everyone.
359
00:16:24,792 --> 00:16:27,430
- "Aquaman," directed
by James Wan,
360
00:16:27,529 --> 00:16:30,799
became the highest-grossing
film in DC's history,
361
00:16:30,898 --> 00:16:35,271
netting over a billion dollars
at the box office worldwide.
362
00:16:35,370 --> 00:16:40,004
The victory of this
once-belittled superhero
363
00:16:40,108 --> 00:16:42,078
showed hit comic book movies
364
00:16:42,176 --> 00:16:44,647
start with the source material.
365
00:16:45,913 --> 00:16:49,352
And strong stories were the
priority for a new leader
366
00:16:49,451 --> 00:16:52,488
who came to DC in 1976.
367
00:16:54,989 --> 00:16:58,594
28-year-old Jenette Kahn
had no comic book experience
368
00:16:58,693 --> 00:17:01,630
when Warner hired her to
replace Carmine Infantino
369
00:17:01,730 --> 00:17:03,399
as publisher.
370
00:17:03,498 --> 00:17:06,030
- There was a lot
of fear and loathing
371
00:17:06,134 --> 00:17:07,603
that I had been hired.
372
00:17:07,697 --> 00:17:08,938
How did she come here?
373
00:17:09,032 --> 00:17:11,307
And she's not a
comic book person,
374
00:17:11,406 --> 00:17:13,209
and she's young,
and she's a woman.
375
00:17:13,306 --> 00:17:16,946
- This was a company that was
completely inbred and insular.
376
00:17:17,044 --> 00:17:20,516
It had never had an outsider
in a management position.
377
00:17:20,615 --> 00:17:22,986
It had never had a woman
in a management position.
378
00:17:23,084 --> 00:17:26,489
Except for the fact that
she was smart and Jewish,
379
00:17:26,587 --> 00:17:28,124
she had pretty much nothing
380
00:17:28,223 --> 00:17:29,503
in common with all of the people
381
00:17:29,590 --> 00:17:31,360
she was inheriting as her team.
382
00:17:31,459 --> 00:17:34,463
- In fact, DC corporate
hired Kahn because
383
00:17:34,557 --> 00:17:37,500
of her successful track record
with children's magazines,
384
00:17:37,599 --> 00:17:39,735
a clear indicator
of who they thought
385
00:17:39,835 --> 00:17:41,137
their product was for.
386
00:17:41,236 --> 00:17:43,606
- Comics were
considered a disposable,
387
00:17:43,704 --> 00:17:46,109
ephemeral medium,
simply for kids.
388
00:17:46,206 --> 00:17:49,812
And there was a real sense
of shame about working
389
00:17:49,906 --> 00:17:52,281
in the comic book industry.
390
00:17:52,380 --> 00:17:57,020
But I came to DC with a
very important feeling
391
00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:58,587
that comics were an art form.
392
00:17:58,686 --> 00:18:00,230
We're in the business
of telling stories
393
00:18:00,254 --> 00:18:02,325
in pictures and words,
394
00:18:02,423 --> 00:18:04,227
and if we think of
comics that way,
395
00:18:04,326 --> 00:18:07,496
we can tell any kind of story.
396
00:18:07,595 --> 00:18:11,367
- One untold story
was long overdue.
397
00:18:11,466 --> 00:18:13,236
To script its first ever series
398
00:18:13,333 --> 00:18:16,372
featuring an African-American
superhero in the title role,
399
00:18:16,470 --> 00:18:20,009
DC hired writer Tony Isabella.
400
00:18:20,107 --> 00:18:24,147
- I wanted to do, basically,
my ultimate Black superhero.
401
00:18:24,245 --> 00:18:26,249
I wanted someone who
would be a role model,
402
00:18:26,348 --> 00:18:28,884
someone kids could relate to.
403
00:18:28,984 --> 00:18:30,286
He was an Olympic athlete
404
00:18:30,385 --> 00:18:32,188
who gave the Black Power salute
405
00:18:32,286 --> 00:18:34,390
at the Olympics.
406
00:18:34,489 --> 00:18:38,094
Those guys had their
athletic careers ruined.
407
00:18:38,192 --> 00:18:40,229
So he became a schoolteacher,
408
00:18:40,328 --> 00:18:42,765
fighting crime in
the inner city.
409
00:18:42,864 --> 00:18:46,130
That was Jefferson
Pierce, Black Lightning.
410
00:18:48,502 --> 00:18:53,442
- "Black Lightning"
struck the stands in 1977.
411
00:18:53,541 --> 00:18:55,778
- I remember opening that bag,
412
00:18:55,877 --> 00:18:59,143
and inside was the first
issue of "Black Lightning."
413
00:18:59,246 --> 00:19:04,820
And I felt something that
I had never felt before.
414
00:19:04,919 --> 00:19:07,957
I think, for the first
time, I felt invested.
415
00:19:08,056 --> 00:19:10,826
I could relate to
almost everything
416
00:19:10,926 --> 00:19:13,562
that was on the page.
417
00:19:13,661 --> 00:19:15,531
This was a very human story,
418
00:19:15,629 --> 00:19:17,466
and it was a very
immediate story.
419
00:19:17,565 --> 00:19:19,135
It was very sociopolitical.
420
00:19:19,234 --> 00:19:21,837
It was all of those things.
421
00:19:21,935 --> 00:19:25,708
- DC had caught up, but
not even a new superhero
422
00:19:25,807 --> 00:19:27,944
could turn the failing
comics market around.
423
00:19:29,910 --> 00:19:31,981
- The newsstands of
America were drying up
424
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:33,382
as a place to sell magazines.
425
00:19:33,481 --> 00:19:35,985
Comic book sales
were plummeting.
426
00:19:36,084 --> 00:19:37,820
- Americans were
moving to the suburbs
427
00:19:37,918 --> 00:19:40,089
where chain stores refused
to give floor space
428
00:19:40,188 --> 00:19:41,324
to spinner racks.
429
00:19:41,422 --> 00:19:43,059
Comics were returned unsold
430
00:19:43,158 --> 00:19:46,190
and DC's investments wasted.
431
00:19:46,289 --> 00:19:48,497
Fighting to regain market share,
432
00:19:48,597 --> 00:19:50,033
Khan doubled down.
433
00:19:50,131 --> 00:19:52,701
The company churned out
new comics in a campaign
434
00:19:52,801 --> 00:19:56,105
they dubbed The DC Explosion.
435
00:19:56,203 --> 00:19:58,541
- Let's really try to co-opt
as much newsstand space
436
00:19:58,639 --> 00:20:02,378
as we can by putting out
as many comics as we can.
437
00:20:02,477 --> 00:20:07,211
We trumpeted quantity
over quality.
438
00:20:07,310 --> 00:20:09,852
- In the winter of
1978, a blizzard
439
00:20:09,950 --> 00:20:12,655
of historic proportions
knocked out deliveries,
440
00:20:12,754 --> 00:20:16,859
while skyrocketing inflation
drove DC's staggering sales
441
00:20:16,958 --> 00:20:18,527
into the ground.
442
00:20:18,626 --> 00:20:22,731
Overnight, the DC Explosion
became the DC implosion.
443
00:20:22,830 --> 00:20:24,733
The company laid off
much of its staff
444
00:20:24,832 --> 00:20:28,037
and abruptly canceled
17 comic book series,
445
00:20:28,136 --> 00:20:30,974
including "Black Lightning."
446
00:20:31,072 --> 00:20:33,776
- Nobody who was working
at DC in the mid '70s
447
00:20:33,874 --> 00:20:36,845
thought the industry was
going to be around very long.
448
00:20:36,944 --> 00:20:40,984
Something had to be done.
Answers had to be found.
449
00:20:41,082 --> 00:20:44,921
- With DC's future
hanging in the balance,
450
00:20:45,018 --> 00:20:49,092
Warner gambled big on a
movie about the superhero
451
00:20:49,191 --> 00:20:51,427
who started it all.
452
00:20:51,525 --> 00:20:53,257
- Nobody thought
that this would make
453
00:20:53,361 --> 00:20:54,863
a very good picture.
454
00:20:54,963 --> 00:20:56,365
Everybody, I guess,
had the memory
455
00:20:56,464 --> 00:20:57,784
of the "Batman"
television series,
456
00:20:57,831 --> 00:20:59,602
and they thought "It's
just gonna be campy,
457
00:20:59,700 --> 00:21:02,305
and we can't have two and
a half hours of camp."
458
00:21:02,402 --> 00:21:06,042
- Even with famed "Godfather"
writer Mario Puzo attached,
459
00:21:06,139 --> 00:21:09,178
the movie had trouble
getting off the ground.
460
00:21:09,277 --> 00:21:11,314
Untested flying technology
461
00:21:11,413 --> 00:21:13,277
and a director change midstream
462
00:21:13,381 --> 00:21:17,921
pushed the schedule behind
and the budget into the red.
463
00:21:18,018 --> 00:21:20,523
When the new director
Richard Donner came on,
464
00:21:20,621 --> 00:21:23,626
he began to course
correct, starting with
465
00:21:23,726 --> 00:21:25,428
the tone of the script.
466
00:21:25,526 --> 00:21:27,530
- They had a different approach
467
00:21:27,630 --> 00:21:29,698
to Superman than I did.
468
00:21:29,797 --> 00:21:34,837
Their approach was kind
of a parody on a parody.
469
00:21:34,936 --> 00:21:37,606
I said, "This is Superman.
This is apple pie.
470
00:21:37,706 --> 00:21:39,342
This is Americana."
471
00:21:39,435 --> 00:21:41,110
It was a part of
American history,
472
00:21:41,209 --> 00:21:43,712
and to me, it had its
own sense of reality.
473
00:21:43,811 --> 00:21:47,816
The mission was to
keep it straight.
474
00:21:47,915 --> 00:21:50,119
- With the screenplay
in surgery,
475
00:21:50,218 --> 00:21:52,755
an intensive search
began for the actor
476
00:21:52,853 --> 00:21:55,319
who would embody
the Man of Steel.
477
00:21:55,422 --> 00:22:00,696
- Robert Redford, Paul Newman,
and every major American star.
478
00:22:00,796 --> 00:22:02,731
My problem was, I would have
479
00:22:02,830 --> 00:22:04,833
a very difficult
time seeing them fly.
480
00:22:04,932 --> 00:22:07,536
If you didn't believe
Superman could fly,
481
00:22:07,635 --> 00:22:09,705
then you didn't believe
Superman was real,
482
00:22:09,804 --> 00:22:12,909
and I felt we should
go for an unknown.
483
00:22:13,007 --> 00:22:14,519
- Thank you very much
for finding the time
484
00:22:14,543 --> 00:22:15,811
for this interview.
485
00:22:15,909 --> 00:22:17,646
I realize there must
be many questions
486
00:22:17,745 --> 00:22:19,556
about me the world would
like to know the answers to.
487
00:22:19,580 --> 00:22:22,685
- Christopher Reeve was known
mainly for his work on stage
488
00:22:22,783 --> 00:22:25,421
and in soap operas,
but his earnest take
489
00:22:25,519 --> 00:22:29,758
on Superman aligned perfectly
with Donner's grounded vision.
490
00:22:29,857 --> 00:22:31,894
- What sets Superman
apart is that he's
491
00:22:31,988 --> 00:22:33,529
got the kind of maturity
492
00:22:33,628 --> 00:22:34,948
or he's got the
innocence, really,
493
00:22:34,996 --> 00:22:37,100
to look at the world
very, very simply.
494
00:22:37,198 --> 00:22:40,069
When he says, "I'm here
to fight for truth..."
495
00:22:40,168 --> 00:22:42,671
"For justice, and
the American way."
496
00:22:42,770 --> 00:22:45,408
Everybody goes...
497
00:22:45,507 --> 00:22:48,311
You know? But
he's not kidding.
498
00:22:48,404 --> 00:22:49,946
- The way to make this movie
499
00:22:50,044 --> 00:22:54,378
was to treat it like
it was important,
500
00:22:54,482 --> 00:22:59,155
like it was an important
piece of American mythology.
501
00:22:59,253 --> 00:23:01,590
- By the way, real doesn't
mean grim and gritty.
502
00:23:01,689 --> 00:23:03,692
Real just means
emotionally real.
503
00:23:03,791 --> 00:23:07,196
And with "Superman," it's
normal people reacting
504
00:23:07,295 --> 00:23:08,932
to something extraordinary.
505
00:23:12,167 --> 00:23:13,937
- Look up there!
506
00:23:15,436 --> 00:23:17,173
- What the hell is that?
507
00:23:18,639 --> 00:23:20,643
- Easy, miss. I've got you.
508
00:23:20,741 --> 00:23:23,379
- You've got me?
Who's got you?
509
00:23:28,215 --> 00:23:32,655
- "Superman" swept up $300
million in ticket sales,
510
00:23:32,753 --> 00:23:34,991
won an Academy Award
for special effects,
511
00:23:35,089 --> 00:23:39,195
and launched a chain
of blockbuster sequels.
512
00:23:41,396 --> 00:23:43,832
- On January 26, 1979,
513
00:23:43,932 --> 00:23:45,429
I went to see
"Superman," the movie.
514
00:23:45,533 --> 00:23:48,104
And I went in aimless
and not knowing
515
00:23:48,202 --> 00:23:51,774
what the future is and
being afraid of the future.
516
00:23:51,873 --> 00:23:54,410
When I was a kid, I
didn't have any friends
517
00:23:54,509 --> 00:23:56,712
because I was changing
schools all the time.
518
00:23:56,812 --> 00:23:58,814
I went into that movie theater
519
00:23:58,912 --> 00:24:02,218
just feeling like no one
cared about me, no one saw me,
520
00:24:02,316 --> 00:24:05,688
no one heard me. Superman
cares about everybody.
521
00:24:07,888 --> 00:24:10,826
He doesn't care whether
you're rich or poor
522
00:24:10,926 --> 00:24:13,329
or where you come from.
523
00:24:13,427 --> 00:24:15,264
And I came out of that
movie convinced that
524
00:24:15,363 --> 00:24:17,375
whatever I was going to do
with the rest of my life,
525
00:24:17,399 --> 00:24:19,768
it was going to have to have
something to do with Superman.
526
00:24:23,404 --> 00:24:25,874
- If the Chris Reeve,
Dick Donner movie
527
00:24:25,974 --> 00:24:27,543
hadn't succeeded that year,
528
00:24:27,642 --> 00:24:28,978
DC might have ended up
529
00:24:29,077 --> 00:24:31,247
with a very, very minimal
publishing schedule,
530
00:24:31,346 --> 00:24:35,479
and the company that you think
of might not have survived.
531
00:24:36,684 --> 00:24:39,055
- Riding high on
"Superman's" success,
532
00:24:39,154 --> 00:24:42,291
DC embraced a new
way to reach readers.
533
00:24:48,028 --> 00:24:50,934
The comic shop
started in the 1970s
534
00:24:51,031 --> 00:24:55,338
as a spot for teenage fans
to buy, trade, and argue
535
00:24:55,436 --> 00:24:57,340
about old back issues.
536
00:24:57,439 --> 00:24:59,675
By the early 1980s,
537
00:24:59,774 --> 00:25:01,377
driven by demand
from older readers,
538
00:25:01,475 --> 00:25:04,780
new shops were opening
across the country.
539
00:25:04,878 --> 00:25:07,683
- That really became
the whole new face
540
00:25:07,782 --> 00:25:09,285
of comic book distribution.
541
00:25:09,383 --> 00:25:12,388
It's really what saved
comics from oblivion.
542
00:25:12,486 --> 00:25:14,290
- Comics were hot.
543
00:25:14,389 --> 00:25:16,725
But for many, DC's
tangled continuity
544
00:25:16,825 --> 00:25:19,062
was a barrier to entry.
545
00:25:19,161 --> 00:25:22,899
- The problem was a
lot of the Marvel fans
546
00:25:22,997 --> 00:25:24,700
did not understand
what DC was about
547
00:25:24,793 --> 00:25:26,793
because they didn't understand
why they had so many
548
00:25:26,867 --> 00:25:29,505
multiple characters
that were all the same.
549
00:25:29,603 --> 00:25:31,975
We were dealing with
things like the multiverse.
550
00:25:32,074 --> 00:25:33,876
Words that are
very common today,
551
00:25:33,976 --> 00:25:36,612
but back then were not.
552
00:25:36,705 --> 00:25:40,984
And it suddenly hits me,
we need to change this.
553
00:25:41,083 --> 00:25:46,022
Let's begin the
universe fresh today.
554
00:25:47,388 --> 00:25:48,891
It had to be revolutionary.
555
00:25:48,989 --> 00:25:51,594
It had to be something
that everyone would go,
556
00:25:51,693 --> 00:25:53,930
"Oh, my God, they're serious?
557
00:25:54,028 --> 00:25:57,533
They're going to do
that? That's impossible."
558
00:25:57,632 --> 00:26:01,604
- In the most cataclysmic
crossover of DC's history,
559
00:26:01,703 --> 00:26:04,207
Marv Wolfman and
artist George Perez
560
00:26:04,306 --> 00:26:06,009
ended the DC multiverse
561
00:26:06,107 --> 00:26:08,744
with a 12-issue standalone event
562
00:26:08,842 --> 00:26:10,914
that killed off
characters and worlds
563
00:26:11,012 --> 00:26:13,716
until a single Earth was left.
564
00:26:13,815 --> 00:26:15,718
- They took the
unprecedented step
565
00:26:15,811 --> 00:26:19,989
of deciding we're gonna wipe
all of the baggage away.
566
00:26:20,088 --> 00:26:23,226
We're gonna restart
and unify them
567
00:26:23,325 --> 00:26:27,063
into a DC Universe
for the first time.
568
00:26:27,162 --> 00:26:29,032
- "Crisis on Infinite
Earths" happened,
569
00:26:29,130 --> 00:26:31,300
and the Flash died
at the end of it.
570
00:26:34,268 --> 00:26:38,107
And that was the first time
I ever cried in a comic book.
571
00:26:38,206 --> 00:26:41,044
And I remember
realizing at that time,
572
00:26:41,143 --> 00:26:42,979
like, I'm so connected
to this character.
573
00:26:43,077 --> 00:26:45,256
And now I have to go back and
learn everything about them.
574
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,884
And in a way, his
end was my beginning
575
00:26:48,977 --> 00:26:51,420
- Wolfman's decision to
burn down the multiverse
576
00:26:51,519 --> 00:26:53,722
gave other creators
a clean slate
577
00:26:53,821 --> 00:26:55,858
to breathe new
life and new depth
578
00:26:55,957 --> 00:26:59,028
into classic DC characters.
579
00:26:59,126 --> 00:27:01,497
- So coming out of "Crisis
on Infinite Earths,"
580
00:27:01,596 --> 00:27:03,066
we have a brand new Earth.
581
00:27:03,164 --> 00:27:04,901
Well, let's reintroduce
the characters
582
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:06,970
as if they had not
existed before.
583
00:27:07,068 --> 00:27:10,106
So DC brought John
Byrne over from Marvel.
584
00:27:10,203 --> 00:27:12,048
He was the biggest talent
in comics at the time.
585
00:27:12,072 --> 00:27:15,611
Let's give him "Superman." Do
it completely from scratch.
586
00:27:15,704 --> 00:27:17,780
And think about
what is your life
587
00:27:17,879 --> 00:27:20,116
really like if those
are your abilities,
588
00:27:20,215 --> 00:27:21,817
if those have your powers,
589
00:27:21,915 --> 00:27:23,315
if that's how you
perceive the world
590
00:27:23,379 --> 00:27:26,555
with your superpowers.
591
00:27:26,655 --> 00:27:28,024
Same with "Wonder Woman,"
592
00:27:28,123 --> 00:27:29,792
let's give her to George Perez.
593
00:27:29,891 --> 00:27:31,068
- George Perez's "Wonder Woman"
594
00:27:31,092 --> 00:27:32,561
was my everything.
595
00:27:32,660 --> 00:27:34,763
His run on "Wonder Woman"
is ultimately what drove me
596
00:27:34,863 --> 00:27:36,632
to apply to art school.
597
00:27:36,731 --> 00:27:39,868
To this day, I can't get over
the amount of information
598
00:27:39,968 --> 00:27:41,570
he put on a page.
599
00:27:41,669 --> 00:27:43,072
I'd never seen comic pages
600
00:27:43,171 --> 00:27:46,109
that were so dense with panels.
601
00:27:46,206 --> 00:27:48,611
But what really struck me
about the George Perez stuff
602
00:27:48,711 --> 00:27:50,713
is he was a really good actor.
603
00:27:50,812 --> 00:27:54,483
By that I mean, his characters
who are different sizes
604
00:27:54,582 --> 00:27:57,786
and shapes, look
differently, and they stood
605
00:27:57,885 --> 00:27:59,755
and they dressed and they acted
606
00:27:59,854 --> 00:28:01,890
and they behaved and
they fought in ways
607
00:28:01,990 --> 00:28:04,093
that were unique to them.
608
00:28:04,192 --> 00:28:06,029
And to me, that was the
magic of George Perez.
609
00:28:06,128 --> 00:28:07,763
It was a way of thinking.
610
00:28:07,862 --> 00:28:10,694
It was a sensibility where
each character was unique.
611
00:28:10,798 --> 00:28:14,737
And he was gonna bring out
that uniqueness with the art.
612
00:28:16,671 --> 00:28:18,174
- One of the most
important decisions
613
00:28:18,273 --> 00:28:21,705
I think I made at
DC was to commission
614
00:28:21,809 --> 00:28:26,015
the people who turned comics
into a sophisticated art form,
615
00:28:26,113 --> 00:28:30,053
and that began with bringing
Frank Miller over to DC.
616
00:28:31,986 --> 00:28:33,626
- Frank Miller's "The
Dark Knight Returns"
617
00:28:33,721 --> 00:28:36,492
is a sharply modern take
on the Batman legend,
618
00:28:36,591 --> 00:28:39,495
set against the harsh
reality of the Reagan regime
619
00:28:39,594 --> 00:28:42,431
and filled with the
fury of the times.
620
00:28:42,530 --> 00:28:45,434
- Most of the basic
assumptions of comics,
621
00:28:45,533 --> 00:28:47,536
up until the past
two years, were all
622
00:28:47,635 --> 00:28:49,305
pretty much set in the '40s.
623
00:28:49,404 --> 00:28:51,674
And everything had to happen
in a very benevolent world
624
00:28:51,767 --> 00:28:53,176
where you can always
trust the cops,
625
00:28:53,274 --> 00:28:54,986
you can always trust
your elected officials,
626
00:28:55,010 --> 00:28:56,512
you can always
trust your parents.
627
00:28:56,611 --> 00:28:58,714
It's unfortunate that
for so many years,
628
00:28:58,813 --> 00:29:00,917
the basic idea of superheroes
629
00:29:01,015 --> 00:29:04,954
was made impossible by
putting it in a world
630
00:29:05,053 --> 00:29:08,024
where it didn't need any.
631
00:29:08,122 --> 00:29:11,127
- Miller reinvents Batman
as a middle-aged loner,
632
00:29:11,226 --> 00:29:14,297
angry at corrupt officials
and willing to use
633
00:29:14,396 --> 00:29:17,033
any means necessary
to expose them.
634
00:29:17,131 --> 00:29:18,942
- I felt that there was
no way to really do Batman
635
00:29:18,966 --> 00:29:20,911
without addressing the fact
that, at least at the start
636
00:29:20,935 --> 00:29:22,405
of the story, he's
an anachronism.
637
00:29:22,503 --> 00:29:24,007
There's something
very antiquated
638
00:29:24,106 --> 00:29:25,441
about the whole notion,
639
00:29:25,540 --> 00:29:27,176
and the effort of "Dark Knight"
640
00:29:27,275 --> 00:29:30,679
was to revive it, to
make the idea work
641
00:29:30,779 --> 00:29:32,615
in a modern context.
642
00:29:32,713 --> 00:29:35,718
- When Batman's war on gangs
becomes an embarrassment
643
00:29:35,817 --> 00:29:37,886
to Washington, he finds himself
644
00:29:37,980 --> 00:29:41,524
up against an unlikely
foe, Superman,
645
00:29:41,624 --> 00:29:43,059
drawn as an enforcer
646
00:29:43,158 --> 00:29:45,328
for the Reagan
government police state.
647
00:29:45,426 --> 00:29:48,264
- It's a book that defied
all the conventions
648
00:29:48,362 --> 00:29:50,166
of what we had done previously.
649
00:29:50,265 --> 00:29:54,770
It was political, social
commentary driven.
650
00:29:54,863 --> 00:29:56,605
It was further off
any model sheet
651
00:29:56,704 --> 00:30:00,309
for what Batman had been,
the look of the character.
652
00:30:00,408 --> 00:30:03,546
Each individual decision
there was pretty courageous.
653
00:30:03,644 --> 00:30:05,548
And there's no
question, Jenette and I
654
00:30:05,646 --> 00:30:08,017
spent lots of years
debating back and forth
655
00:30:08,116 --> 00:30:09,752
on individual choices,
656
00:30:09,851 --> 00:30:14,657
I would have been more careful,
and she was more daring.
657
00:30:14,755 --> 00:30:17,160
- It was the generation
of creators coming in
658
00:30:17,259 --> 00:30:18,894
who had grown up
reading comic books,
659
00:30:18,993 --> 00:30:22,165
and now they were able to
do their expressions of it.
660
00:30:22,263 --> 00:30:24,000
These are kind of
political works
661
00:30:24,099 --> 00:30:26,735
that had a point of view
that were not in step
662
00:30:26,829 --> 00:30:29,072
with what was going
on at the time.
663
00:30:29,170 --> 00:30:31,941
- "Watchmen" was
a disruptive look
664
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:33,642
at superheroes themselves
665
00:30:33,741 --> 00:30:37,246
by a young English
writer named Alan Moore.
666
00:30:37,345 --> 00:30:40,249
- What we want to do
is to actually examine
667
00:30:40,348 --> 00:30:43,019
the implications
of the superhero,
668
00:30:43,118 --> 00:30:45,888
if these absurd
characters were real,
669
00:30:45,988 --> 00:30:47,890
just what they'd
do to the world.
670
00:30:47,989 --> 00:30:51,727
If you've got a character of
Superman's level and power
671
00:30:51,827 --> 00:30:53,696
working for the Americans,
672
00:30:53,794 --> 00:30:57,133
what would American
foreign policy be like?
673
00:30:57,232 --> 00:30:58,832
Perhaps be a little
bit more adventurous,
674
00:30:58,899 --> 00:31:00,864
and I should imagine that
Russian foreign policy
675
00:31:00,969 --> 00:31:02,866
would be a little
less adventurous.
676
00:31:05,272 --> 00:31:07,610
- Moore sets the story
in an alternate 1985,
677
00:31:07,709 --> 00:31:10,413
under the looming
threat of nuclear war.
678
00:31:10,511 --> 00:31:13,182
The only super being
and America's protector,
679
00:31:13,281 --> 00:31:15,518
Dr. Manhattan, has
abandoned Earth
680
00:31:15,617 --> 00:31:17,987
to a handful of
costumed vigilantes,
681
00:31:18,086 --> 00:31:20,323
one of whom annihilates the city
682
00:31:20,421 --> 00:31:24,027
of New York in the name
of uniting the world.
683
00:31:24,126 --> 00:31:26,162
- "Watchmen" is not
written by someone
684
00:31:26,260 --> 00:31:28,397
who loves superhero
comics.
685
00:31:28,496 --> 00:31:30,074
Watchmen is written by someone
who knows superhero comics
686
00:31:30,098 --> 00:31:32,868
deeply and respects them,
687
00:31:32,967 --> 00:31:35,146
but it's from someone who can
look at them at a distance
688
00:31:35,170 --> 00:31:37,140
and say here are the
great noble themes
689
00:31:37,239 --> 00:31:39,242
that you've actually
been looking at.
690
00:31:39,341 --> 00:31:41,978
- To me, Alan Moore's
"Watchmen" is up there
691
00:31:42,077 --> 00:31:44,280
with any other
work of literature.
692
00:31:44,379 --> 00:31:48,251
Like, I love it. I've
read it 100 times.
693
00:31:48,349 --> 00:31:50,686
The deconstruction
of the superhero
694
00:31:50,785 --> 00:31:52,621
is something that
was very influenced
695
00:31:52,721 --> 00:31:54,257
by what he did.
696
00:31:55,656 --> 00:31:59,395
- In 2005, Time Magazine
ranked "Watchmen"
697
00:31:59,494 --> 00:32:02,531
one of the best 100 novels
of the 20th century.
698
00:32:02,630 --> 00:32:05,668
It has never been out of print.
699
00:32:05,766 --> 00:32:09,605
Moore's book would ignite
a literary explosion at DC
700
00:32:09,704 --> 00:32:12,808
under the leadership
of Karen Berger.
701
00:32:12,907 --> 00:32:17,380
- I was sort of carving a path
a little bit under the radar.
702
00:32:17,479 --> 00:32:20,283
I had started
scouting out writers
703
00:32:20,382 --> 00:32:22,218
in England, particularly.
704
00:32:22,317 --> 00:32:23,895
- The British comic
industry was a step ahead
705
00:32:23,919 --> 00:32:24,949
of us in mature comics.
706
00:32:25,053 --> 00:32:26,655
Karen saw that and was like,
707
00:32:26,754 --> 00:32:28,632
"Why don't we just turn
that into an entire brand?"
708
00:32:28,656 --> 00:32:30,559
And so it was a
British invasion.
709
00:32:30,658 --> 00:32:33,662
She brought in that
generation of British writers,
710
00:32:33,757 --> 00:32:35,960
and they created adult comics.
711
00:32:36,064 --> 00:32:38,001
- By the time DC
started looking,
712
00:32:38,094 --> 00:32:39,414
there was a whole
generation of us
713
00:32:39,501 --> 00:32:41,170
who were just ready to go
714
00:32:41,269 --> 00:32:43,406
and had been reading
comics all our lives.
715
00:32:43,504 --> 00:32:45,741
To have the hand of Superman
reach down from the clouds
716
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,411
and to know that DC
Comics was on the phone,
717
00:32:48,510 --> 00:32:50,579
it just felt like winning
a billion dollars.
718
00:32:50,678 --> 00:32:52,748
- One of the writers Berger met
719
00:32:52,848 --> 00:32:54,517
in her search for new talent
720
00:32:54,615 --> 00:32:58,487
was a persistent young man
by the name of Neil Gaiman.
721
00:32:58,586 --> 00:33:01,657
Gaiman pitched a story based
on an obscure character
722
00:33:01,756 --> 00:33:05,194
from the company's
archives, the Sandman,
723
00:33:05,293 --> 00:33:08,597
ruler of the realm of dreams.
724
00:33:08,696 --> 00:33:10,566
- OK, you've got this character
725
00:33:10,664 --> 00:33:12,668
who was gonna be Lord of Dreams.
726
00:33:12,767 --> 00:33:14,437
Then why haven't
we ever seen him
727
00:33:14,535 --> 00:33:16,205
all through the DC Universe?
728
00:33:16,304 --> 00:33:17,916
Because at that point,
everything you were doing
729
00:33:17,940 --> 00:33:19,308
was in the DC universe.
730
00:33:19,407 --> 00:33:21,017
So I thought, "Well,
we'd never seen him."
731
00:33:21,041 --> 00:33:24,447
I thought, "Well, maybe he's
been locked up somewhere."
732
00:33:24,546 --> 00:33:28,184
And suddenly I had the shape
of a beginning of something.
733
00:33:28,283 --> 00:33:30,086
I had the idea of
this sort of naked man
734
00:33:30,185 --> 00:33:32,655
in a glass box just
prepared to wait
735
00:33:32,753 --> 00:33:35,224
until all the people
who kept him prisoner
736
00:33:35,323 --> 00:33:37,826
were long dead and forgotten.
737
00:33:40,794 --> 00:33:43,766
And of course, I started
"Sandman" in a state
738
00:33:43,865 --> 00:33:46,502
of absolute delirious terror
739
00:33:46,601 --> 00:33:51,607
because I'd never had to do
was write one story a month.
740
00:33:51,706 --> 00:33:54,010
The reason why the
first storyline,
741
00:33:54,107 --> 00:33:56,913
"Preludes and Nocturnes,"
was eight issues long
742
00:33:57,011 --> 00:34:00,917
was I was convinced I would
get the phone call from Karen
743
00:34:01,015 --> 00:34:02,559
saying, you know, "It's
really not selling,
744
00:34:02,583 --> 00:34:04,453
we're gonna stop
it at number 12."
745
00:34:04,552 --> 00:34:06,555
Only when we got
to number eight,
746
00:34:06,654 --> 00:34:09,292
we were selling more
than anything comparable
747
00:34:09,391 --> 00:34:12,428
had ever sold, and
suddenly, I thought,
748
00:34:12,527 --> 00:34:16,099
"OK, I can actually
let myself now believe,
749
00:34:16,198 --> 00:34:19,168
"Let myself dream that I'm gonna
750
00:34:19,267 --> 00:34:21,570
get to the end of the story."
751
00:34:21,669 --> 00:34:25,541
- Finally free, the Sandman
takes revenge on his captors
752
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,979
and discovers he must
answer for his own sins too.
753
00:34:30,073 --> 00:34:31,680
- There was nothing
like "Sandman"
754
00:34:31,780 --> 00:34:33,077
when "Sandman" came out.
755
00:34:33,181 --> 00:34:37,286
It was emotional, but fantastic.
756
00:34:37,385 --> 00:34:39,355
Cerebral, but dark.
757
00:34:39,454 --> 00:34:41,357
It drew female readers
758
00:34:41,456 --> 00:34:43,826
who didn't realize
that there were comics
759
00:34:43,925 --> 00:34:45,661
that they would enjoy.
760
00:34:45,759 --> 00:34:47,463
- Neal was playing against type
761
00:34:47,561 --> 00:34:48,998
for a character named Death
762
00:34:49,096 --> 00:34:51,334
and making her a young,
attractive woman,
763
00:34:51,432 --> 00:34:55,138
a Goth, which was
also very much in sync
764
00:34:55,236 --> 00:34:57,240
with the times.
765
00:34:57,338 --> 00:34:58,578
- When you were in high school,
766
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,076
you could give a
copy of "Sandman"
767
00:35:00,175 --> 00:35:01,375
and look cool still, you know?
768
00:35:01,409 --> 00:35:02,811
You could still wear your jacket
769
00:35:02,910 --> 00:35:04,654
and smoke your cigarettes
and read "Sandman."
770
00:35:04,678 --> 00:35:06,950
Like, that was legitimate.
Comics were cool again.
771
00:35:07,047 --> 00:35:09,185
They were rebellious.
They were dangerous.
772
00:35:09,284 --> 00:35:10,886
They weren't childlike.
773
00:35:10,985 --> 00:35:13,522
They were a sign that you
were on the edge of art,
774
00:35:13,621 --> 00:35:17,293
rather than in the middle of it.
775
00:35:17,392 --> 00:35:19,495
- The series ran for 75 issues
776
00:35:19,594 --> 00:35:22,265
and sold over 7 million copies,
777
00:35:22,363 --> 00:35:24,367
but it was only one
of a growing list
778
00:35:24,466 --> 00:35:26,502
of titles edited by Karen Berger
779
00:35:26,601 --> 00:35:30,506
that veered further off
page of traditional comics.
780
00:35:30,605 --> 00:35:34,610
- My goal was to
really do stories
781
00:35:34,708 --> 00:35:39,182
that just kind of
shook things up,
782
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,884
that broke with the status quo,
783
00:35:41,983 --> 00:35:45,088
that challenged
people's perceptions
784
00:35:45,186 --> 00:35:48,457
of what a comic story could be.
785
00:35:48,556 --> 00:35:50,659
- One of the things that
Karen brought to comics
786
00:35:50,758 --> 00:35:53,696
was the fact that she wasn't
a hardcore comic book fan.
787
00:35:53,794 --> 00:35:57,366
She had her unique
perspective on story
788
00:35:57,465 --> 00:36:00,369
that wasn't bound by
anybody's tradition.
789
00:36:00,468 --> 00:36:02,906
- And Jenette was a
real role model for me.
790
00:36:03,004 --> 00:36:05,608
She set the tone
and set the stage
791
00:36:05,707 --> 00:36:09,645
and was fearless and brave,
in terms of the risk taking.
792
00:36:09,744 --> 00:36:13,449
- And it was at that moment
I said, "You should really
793
00:36:13,547 --> 00:36:15,784
be editor of your own line."
794
00:36:15,883 --> 00:36:18,387
- And I'm like, in a
heartbeat, I said yes.
795
00:36:18,486 --> 00:36:20,924
- And that's when
Vertigo was born.
796
00:36:22,890 --> 00:36:27,896
- I liked the feeling that
you get from that word.
797
00:36:27,996 --> 00:36:29,899
You're uncomfortable.
798
00:36:29,997 --> 00:36:32,468
It's associated with
fear of heights.
799
00:36:32,567 --> 00:36:34,938
And the whole
thing about Vertigo
800
00:36:35,036 --> 00:36:39,108
is overcoming those fears,
going into those dark places,
801
00:36:39,207 --> 00:36:42,711
and taking chances and
taking creative risks.
802
00:36:42,810 --> 00:36:46,082
- There was a feeling in the air
803
00:36:46,181 --> 00:36:48,084
that it was a special place
804
00:36:48,183 --> 00:36:50,486
where you got to stretch
yourself creatively
805
00:36:50,585 --> 00:36:52,956
and push boundaries.
806
00:36:53,055 --> 00:36:55,391
- It was a great way of working.
807
00:36:55,490 --> 00:36:57,526
I think just giving
people the opportunity
808
00:36:57,626 --> 00:36:59,362
to tell that one story.
809
00:36:59,461 --> 00:37:01,039
What is the thing you've
always... what's the thing
810
00:37:01,063 --> 00:37:02,665
that's most expressive of you?
811
00:37:02,764 --> 00:37:05,902
- "The Invisibles"
changed history in comics.
812
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,804
I mean, it created the
first drag queen superhero.
813
00:37:08,904 --> 00:37:10,506
To have this sort of character,
814
00:37:10,605 --> 00:37:14,277
this kind of visibility
in the mid '90s,
815
00:37:14,375 --> 00:37:17,713
that's really extraordinary.
816
00:37:17,812 --> 00:37:19,682
- I think if there's any thread
817
00:37:19,781 --> 00:37:22,385
that fits through what
a Vertigo title is,
818
00:37:22,483 --> 00:37:24,887
what a Vertigo comic is,
819
00:37:24,986 --> 00:37:28,657
they all deal with...
820
00:37:28,757 --> 00:37:30,994
humanity
821
00:37:31,092 --> 00:37:33,396
in all its facets.
822
00:37:33,494 --> 00:37:36,199
And genre is really
used as a backdrop
823
00:37:36,298 --> 00:37:39,768
to tell stories about
the uncomfortable side
824
00:37:39,867 --> 00:37:43,639
of life, disturbing
parts of life,
825
00:37:43,739 --> 00:37:47,376
about people on the fringes.
826
00:37:47,475 --> 00:37:51,547
You know, stories
about all of us.
827
00:37:51,646 --> 00:37:53,649
- You really have
to hand it to Karen.
828
00:37:53,747 --> 00:37:56,619
It's her editorial
vision for comics
829
00:37:56,717 --> 00:38:01,057
to be taken as seriously
as a storytelling medium
830
00:38:01,156 --> 00:38:03,192
as any other.
831
00:38:03,291 --> 00:38:07,096
That comics can do anything
and have to be allowed
832
00:38:07,195 --> 00:38:09,865
to do anything, to go
into whatever territory
833
00:38:09,964 --> 00:38:13,069
any writer or artist
deems appropriate.
834
00:38:13,168 --> 00:38:15,604
- Vertigo's
boundary-breaking stories
835
00:38:15,703 --> 00:38:18,807
claim new cultural cachet
and market potential
836
00:38:18,907 --> 00:38:21,810
and needed a format to match.
837
00:38:21,910 --> 00:38:23,679
- We said to each
other, "Why should we
838
00:38:23,778 --> 00:38:26,749
"just let a comic book come
out and then disappear?
839
00:38:26,847 --> 00:38:28,851
"How can comic books
stay on a shelf?
840
00:38:28,949 --> 00:38:31,287
How can comic books actually
even go on a shelf?"
841
00:38:31,385 --> 00:38:33,822
- To get comics into bookstores,
842
00:38:33,921 --> 00:38:36,492
the company seized on
a brand new genre...
843
00:38:36,591 --> 00:38:38,027
The graphic novel.
844
00:38:38,125 --> 00:38:41,064
With longer stories
published in one volume,
845
00:38:41,162 --> 00:38:45,201
it was a move that would pay
dividends for years to come.
846
00:38:45,300 --> 00:38:48,171
- Between the trade paperbacks
and the graphic novels,
847
00:38:48,269 --> 00:38:51,474
we turned publishing around
to be a profit center.
848
00:38:51,573 --> 00:38:53,910
We made comics permanent.
849
00:38:57,745 --> 00:39:01,017
- By the mid '90s, comic
books had grown up,
850
00:39:01,114 --> 00:39:04,921
but comic book movies
were stalled in the past.
851
00:39:05,018 --> 00:39:07,957
One young fan made it
his personal mission
852
00:39:08,056 --> 00:39:10,093
to change that.
853
00:39:10,192 --> 00:39:14,397
- Now, if I tell you today
that as a kid in my 20s,
854
00:39:14,495 --> 00:39:16,699
I waltzed in, and
I bought the rights
855
00:39:16,798 --> 00:39:19,135
to Batman from DC
Comics, you're gonna go,
856
00:39:19,234 --> 00:39:20,937
"Well, that's impossible."
857
00:39:21,034 --> 00:39:24,840
And they're right. Today,
could never happen.
858
00:39:24,939 --> 00:39:29,212
But at that moment in time,
nobody else understood
859
00:39:29,310 --> 00:39:31,547
the value of these characters.
860
00:39:31,646 --> 00:39:35,884
- In 1979, Uslan had teamed
up with experienced producer
861
00:39:35,983 --> 00:39:38,487
Ben Melniker and
bought the film rights
862
00:39:38,586 --> 00:39:40,990
to the caped crusader from DC.
863
00:39:41,088 --> 00:39:44,760
It would take nearly a
decade for cameras to roll.
864
00:39:44,858 --> 00:39:48,631
- I was turned down by every
single studio in Hollywood.
865
00:39:48,729 --> 00:39:50,129
They said, "You're
out of your mind.
866
00:39:50,165 --> 00:39:52,396
"You can't do serious
comic book movies.
867
00:39:52,500 --> 00:39:54,670
You can't do dark
superheroes."
868
00:39:54,769 --> 00:39:56,505
- But then Frank Miller
comes along and does
869
00:39:56,604 --> 00:39:58,174
"The Dark Knight Returns."
870
00:39:58,273 --> 00:40:02,511
And that reset Batman
in people's imaginations
871
00:40:02,610 --> 00:40:06,682
from Adam West to the
modern, dark, complex
872
00:40:06,781 --> 00:40:09,285
avenger that we know this day.
873
00:40:09,378 --> 00:40:12,488
- The whole key was Tim Burton.
874
00:40:12,587 --> 00:40:15,724
- Director Tim Burton was
known for off-kilter hits
875
00:40:15,823 --> 00:40:17,460
like "Pee-wee's Big Adventure,"
876
00:40:17,558 --> 00:40:19,195
not action movies,
877
00:40:19,293 --> 00:40:22,999
but his empathetic take
on Batman sold Uslan.
878
00:40:23,098 --> 00:40:26,402
- It was Tim who said,
"If we're gonna make
879
00:40:26,501 --> 00:40:27,937
"a serious Batman movie,
880
00:40:28,036 --> 00:40:29,605
this movie cannot
be about Batman."
881
00:40:29,703 --> 00:40:32,942
This movie must be
about Bruce Wayne.
882
00:40:33,041 --> 00:40:35,811
- We were interested
in not exploring,
883
00:40:35,910 --> 00:40:39,548
you know, the cliched
aspects of a comic book,
884
00:40:39,647 --> 00:40:41,550
but trying to get a
little bit more out of it.
885
00:40:41,649 --> 00:40:43,886
What we were interested in doing
886
00:40:43,984 --> 00:40:46,289
was showing a hero
who has problems.
887
00:40:46,387 --> 00:40:48,124
It does make it more human.
888
00:40:48,223 --> 00:40:49,959
- But when Burton
cast Michael Keaton
889
00:40:50,057 --> 00:40:54,697
in the title role, Uslan's
confidence wobbled.
890
00:40:54,796 --> 00:40:57,833
- I said "That's great."
That's a great joke.
891
00:40:57,932 --> 00:41:00,937
I said I could see the poster
now, "Mr. Mom" is "Batman."
892
00:41:01,036 --> 00:41:04,340
There's a dark and
serious Batman.
893
00:41:04,438 --> 00:41:07,176
And Tim had the explanation.
894
00:41:07,275 --> 00:41:10,213
I've worked with Michael
Keaton on Beetlejuice.
895
00:41:10,311 --> 00:41:13,282
We can create a
portrayal of Bruce Wayne
896
00:41:13,381 --> 00:41:16,953
so driven, so obsessed to the
point of being psychotic...
897
00:41:17,052 --> 00:41:20,189
- Now what do you think?
You think I'm qualified?
898
00:41:20,288 --> 00:41:24,260
- That audiences will go,
"Yes, that guy would work.
899
00:41:24,359 --> 00:41:25,528
That guy would do that."
900
00:41:25,627 --> 00:41:28,697
- 67, take one.
- Action.
901
00:41:30,532 --> 00:41:33,903
- Burton and his design
team conjured a brooding,
902
00:41:34,001 --> 00:41:37,273
broken Gotham,
swirling with menace.
903
00:41:37,372 --> 00:41:41,177
- "Batman" '89 was
really a master class
904
00:41:41,276 --> 00:41:43,712
from mood to darkness.
905
00:41:43,811 --> 00:41:45,491
The first time you see
Batman in that film,
906
00:41:45,547 --> 00:41:47,183
what are you seeing?
907
00:41:47,282 --> 00:41:50,119
You're seeing the silhouette
of a bat come down
908
00:41:50,218 --> 00:41:52,288
on two guys that
just robbed someone.
909
00:41:52,387 --> 00:41:55,258
And those two should
be very, very fearful.
910
00:41:59,861 --> 00:42:03,132
- What are you?
- I'm Batman.
911
00:42:03,230 --> 00:42:06,669
- They took Batman to his
dark comic book roots.
912
00:42:06,768 --> 00:42:08,938
The story of a very damaged man.
913
00:42:09,036 --> 00:42:10,775
If you're going to dress
up as a bat at night
914
00:42:10,799 --> 00:42:13,910
and put fear into the
hearts of criminals,
915
00:42:14,007 --> 00:42:18,247
what type of person is that?
What makes him be that way?
916
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:21,284
- Bruce Wayne,
his tendency to be
917
00:42:21,382 --> 00:42:22,952
a rather internal guy
918
00:42:23,051 --> 00:42:25,121
who just kind of
flips occasionally,
919
00:42:25,219 --> 00:42:27,197
you know, the lid kind of comes
off every once in a while.
920
00:42:27,221 --> 00:42:29,492
- Now you want to
get nuts? Come on!
921
00:42:29,591 --> 00:42:30,759
Let's get nuts.
922
00:42:30,858 --> 00:42:32,556
Until he's Batman,
in which case,
923
00:42:32,660 --> 00:42:34,530
it weirdly becomes controlled.
924
00:42:34,630 --> 00:42:36,465
- Excuse me.
925
00:42:36,564 --> 00:42:39,802
Have you ever danced with the
devil in the pale moonlight?
926
00:42:41,201 --> 00:42:44,773
- It was an incredible,
incredible moment in time.
927
00:42:44,872 --> 00:42:48,377
For a comic book fan who
had grown up ridiculed,
928
00:42:48,476 --> 00:42:51,747
seeing this being elevated
929
00:42:51,847 --> 00:42:55,084
to global blockbuster status.
930
00:42:55,182 --> 00:42:57,753
- The crowd started
gathering over the weekend
931
00:42:57,852 --> 00:42:59,422
in anticipation of
a movie premiere
932
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,825
so big it had to be
held in two theaters.
933
00:43:02,924 --> 00:43:04,928
- And I said, "I think
what I've learned here
934
00:43:05,025 --> 00:43:09,966
"is if you don't believe them
when they tell you how bad
935
00:43:10,064 --> 00:43:12,368
"you are, just believe in
yourself and your work,
936
00:43:12,468 --> 00:43:14,070
you'll do great."
937
00:43:14,168 --> 00:43:16,940
- I think Michael Keaton far
surpassed what you expect.
938
00:43:17,038 --> 00:43:18,341
He's gonna be the new Batman,
939
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:20,209
the new wave Batman of the '90s.
940
00:43:20,308 --> 00:43:23,746
- "Batman" in 1989
is not only just
941
00:43:23,844 --> 00:43:25,781
the most successful
movie of that year,
942
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,084
but that bat symbol
is everywhere.
943
00:43:28,183 --> 00:43:31,020
You can't buy blank
T-shirts to print on
944
00:43:31,118 --> 00:43:33,422
because every black
blank T-shirt has already
945
00:43:33,521 --> 00:43:35,124
been committed somewhere.
946
00:43:35,222 --> 00:43:38,327
- Fans of Philadelphia can
line up for Batman dos.
947
00:43:38,426 --> 00:43:40,896
- A whole catalog of
Batman memorabilia.
948
00:43:40,995 --> 00:43:44,100
In fact, there is even a
1-800-BATMAN number in here
949
00:43:44,198 --> 00:43:46,302
to get your merchandise
to you faster.
950
00:43:46,401 --> 00:43:48,304
- The adventures of
the caped crusader
951
00:43:48,402 --> 00:43:51,807
are fueling a $400 million
industry that's growing
952
00:43:51,907 --> 00:43:53,776
by 25% each year.
953
00:43:55,777 --> 00:43:59,148
- Bat mania catapulted
comics into the new decade,
954
00:43:59,247 --> 00:44:02,518
where it found a
whole new kind of fan.
955
00:44:02,617 --> 00:44:06,155
- '90s was a very bloated
time in comic book history,
956
00:44:06,254 --> 00:44:09,125
a period of interest
solely from collectors.
957
00:44:09,223 --> 00:44:11,260
And how much is this comic
book going to be worth?
958
00:44:11,359 --> 00:44:13,396
Do you have the issue
with the special bag
959
00:44:13,495 --> 00:44:15,398
and the card inside?
960
00:44:15,497 --> 00:44:18,334
- And at the 27th annual
international comic convention
961
00:44:18,433 --> 00:44:23,306
in San Diego, a comic
book sold for $180,000.
962
00:44:23,405 --> 00:44:25,774
- It doesn't really
matter about the comic.
963
00:44:25,873 --> 00:44:27,944
It matters of how
much money it costs
964
00:44:28,043 --> 00:44:30,046
and how much money it's worth.
965
00:44:30,144 --> 00:44:33,449
- They buy them for investment.
The fun is out of it.
966
00:44:33,548 --> 00:44:35,051
- Feeding the frenzy,
967
00:44:35,149 --> 00:44:37,120
publishers hype
their top artists
968
00:44:37,218 --> 00:44:39,155
and pumped out
collectible one-offs.
969
00:44:39,254 --> 00:44:42,158
- Oh, I have such a soft
spot for '90s comics.
970
00:44:42,257 --> 00:44:44,293
It seemed really
exciting at the time
971
00:44:44,392 --> 00:44:46,963
because the artists seemed
to be the rock star.
972
00:44:47,061 --> 00:44:48,172
A lot of them, I
never even read,
973
00:44:48,196 --> 00:44:49,966
I just pored over the artwork.
974
00:44:50,058 --> 00:44:53,069
- Jim Lee was one of
Marvel's superstar artists.
975
00:44:53,167 --> 00:44:56,839
His "X-Men" number one
sold 8 million copies,
976
00:44:56,939 --> 00:44:58,474
a Guinness World Record.
977
00:44:58,573 --> 00:45:01,144
- Because the artists were
so hot, some of the artists
978
00:45:01,243 --> 00:45:02,811
felt like we don't need writers.
979
00:45:02,910 --> 00:45:05,114
Why are we sharing our
profits with writers
980
00:45:05,212 --> 00:45:08,551
when we could come up with
these same kind of stories?
981
00:45:08,649 --> 00:45:12,621
- Early in 1992, Lee and
Marvel's other top artists
982
00:45:12,720 --> 00:45:17,160
quit and joined forces
to form Image Comics.
983
00:45:17,257 --> 00:45:20,463
- We were six, seven artists,
depending on which version
984
00:45:20,562 --> 00:45:23,933
you go with, a bunch
of headstrong kids,
985
00:45:24,032 --> 00:45:26,402
really, in our mid-twenties.
986
00:45:26,501 --> 00:45:28,245
And we were just going around
telling these corporations,
987
00:45:28,269 --> 00:45:30,229
"Screw you guys, we're not
going to work for you."
988
00:45:30,305 --> 00:45:32,341
- In its first four
months of operation,
989
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,778
the upstart company
pushed DC into third place
990
00:45:35,878 --> 00:45:37,947
for the first time.
991
00:45:38,046 --> 00:45:39,983
With its reputation on the line,
992
00:45:40,082 --> 00:45:42,251
America's oldest
comics outfit needed
993
00:45:42,350 --> 00:45:44,748
to grab back the spotlight.
994
00:45:44,852 --> 00:45:47,924
- We had an emergency meeting
where we got everybody in.
995
00:45:48,023 --> 00:45:49,993
All the writers, all the artists
996
00:45:50,091 --> 00:45:52,495
on four titles of Superman,
997
00:45:52,593 --> 00:45:54,863
all working towards
a common goal.
998
00:45:54,963 --> 00:45:56,966
It's not about you.
999
00:45:57,064 --> 00:45:58,867
It's about Superman
and what we think
1000
00:45:58,967 --> 00:46:00,636
is best for Superman.
1001
00:46:00,734 --> 00:46:04,007
Every meeting that we ever
had when we would get stuck,
1002
00:46:04,105 --> 00:46:08,511
Jerry Ordway would holler
out, "Let's just kill him."
1003
00:46:08,609 --> 00:46:10,980
Well, he said it that day.
1004
00:46:11,079 --> 00:46:15,884
And I said, "OK, wise
guys, if we kill him,
1005
00:46:15,984 --> 00:46:17,686
what happens then?"
1006
00:46:25,427 --> 00:46:29,132
- Teasers began to appear
across all the Superman titles
1007
00:46:29,230 --> 00:46:31,134
in the summer of 1992.
1008
00:46:31,232 --> 00:46:34,870
Someone or something was coming
1009
00:46:34,970 --> 00:46:36,405
for the Man of Steel.
1010
00:46:36,504 --> 00:46:38,307
- Has the Man of
Steel met his match?
1011
00:46:38,406 --> 00:46:42,278
An editor at DC Comics says
Superman will die November 18.
1012
00:46:42,377 --> 00:46:44,613
Mike Carlin says the
November comic book will show
1013
00:46:44,712 --> 00:46:46,950
the demise of the
costumed crime fighter
1014
00:46:47,048 --> 00:46:49,185
during a fight to
save Metropolis.
1015
00:46:49,284 --> 00:46:51,720
- Oh, good. I'm an
anti-Superman fan.
1016
00:46:51,820 --> 00:46:53,322
I don't like him.
1017
00:46:53,421 --> 00:46:55,299
He's like a boy scout
compared to other superheroes.
1018
00:46:55,323 --> 00:46:57,693
- This from a guy
who wears a tattoo
1019
00:46:57,793 --> 00:46:59,428
of a bad guy, the Joker.
1020
00:46:59,522 --> 00:47:00,997
Teenagers these days
1021
00:47:01,096 --> 00:47:03,166
prefer more violent characters,
1022
00:47:03,265 --> 00:47:04,767
ones like the Punisher,
1023
00:47:04,866 --> 00:47:07,203
Wolverine, the Infinity War.
1024
00:47:07,302 --> 00:47:10,873
- With everybody out
there being antiheroes,
1025
00:47:10,972 --> 00:47:13,676
and Superman being the boy scout
1026
00:47:13,775 --> 00:47:14,838
and the cornball,
1027
00:47:14,943 --> 00:47:16,312
we basically said,
1028
00:47:16,410 --> 00:47:19,048
"Let's show the world
what it would be like
1029
00:47:19,147 --> 00:47:21,184
if we took him away."
1030
00:47:21,283 --> 00:47:23,152
- Leaving a trail of destruction
1031
00:47:23,251 --> 00:47:25,454
and mangled Justice League
characters in its wake,
1032
00:47:25,553 --> 00:47:28,557
Superman's nemesis
bore down on Metropolis
1033
00:47:28,657 --> 00:47:30,426
for the final contest.
1034
00:47:30,525 --> 00:47:33,562
- Every week a new Superman
comic book hits the stores.
1035
00:47:33,661 --> 00:47:36,765
For the last five weeks,
the story of Doomsday
1036
00:47:36,865 --> 00:47:38,101
has been building.
1037
00:47:38,199 --> 00:47:40,069
- By far the bestselling
book right now.
1038
00:47:40,168 --> 00:47:41,938
- It sold out in
just a couple hours.
1039
00:47:42,036 --> 00:47:46,309
- Newspapers wrote editorials.
Fans wrote letters.
1040
00:47:46,407 --> 00:47:48,544
- They were all saying,
"How can you kill Superman?
1041
00:47:48,637 --> 00:47:49,873
How can you kill Superman?"
1042
00:47:49,978 --> 00:47:51,289
And I said, "When
was the last time
1043
00:47:51,313 --> 00:47:52,916
you bought a Superman comic?"
1044
00:47:53,015 --> 00:47:55,284
"Oh, it's been 20, 30 years."
1045
00:47:55,383 --> 00:47:57,586
I said, "You killed Superman."
1046
00:47:57,685 --> 00:48:01,190
If you're not gonna water
the flower, it's gonna die.
1047
00:48:03,757 --> 00:48:05,661
- Well, today is the
day that Superman meets
1048
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,598
an unsuper fate, as DC Comics
releases 3 million copies
1049
00:48:09,698 --> 00:48:11,300
of the Doomsday issue.
1050
00:48:13,768 --> 00:48:15,204
- It's definitely surprising.
1051
00:48:15,303 --> 00:48:17,573
I would never guess
they would kill him.
1052
00:48:17,672 --> 00:48:19,208
- I think it's long
overdue, actually.
1053
00:48:19,307 --> 00:48:21,877
Because he's not in touch
with the real world.
1054
00:48:24,979 --> 00:48:26,849
- I'm gonna cry.
1055
00:48:26,948 --> 00:48:30,219
I'm sad. I don't
want the guy to go.
1056
00:48:30,318 --> 00:48:33,289
- The Man of Steel has
proven to be as vulnerable
1057
00:48:33,388 --> 00:48:35,258
as the mere mortals
who looked up to him
1058
00:48:35,357 --> 00:48:36,921
for more than half a century.
1059
00:48:37,025 --> 00:48:39,762
Superman died Wednesday.
1060
00:48:39,860 --> 00:48:44,233
- DC sold over 6 million
copies of issue number 75,
1061
00:48:44,332 --> 00:48:47,370
including a poly-wrapped
platinum collector's edition
1062
00:48:47,468 --> 00:48:50,206
and several deluxe variants.
1063
00:48:50,305 --> 00:48:52,008
For the next four months,
1064
00:48:52,106 --> 00:48:55,811
all four Superman
titles went dark.
1065
00:48:55,911 --> 00:48:57,413
- Not soon after that, they say,
1066
00:48:57,511 --> 00:48:59,082
"Hey, what can we
do with Batman?
1067
00:48:59,180 --> 00:49:00,649
"Let's break his back.
1068
00:49:00,748 --> 00:49:03,252
"Let's bring Bane in,
soup him up with venom."
1069
00:49:03,351 --> 00:49:06,489
Just kind of like,
LeBron James, just boom.
1070
00:49:06,587 --> 00:49:09,525
- As the collector's
market boiled hotter,
1071
00:49:09,624 --> 00:49:12,228
DC, Marvel, and Image
ramped up the sex
1072
00:49:12,327 --> 00:49:14,363
and violence in a
fevered competition
1073
00:49:14,462 --> 00:49:16,332
for eyeballs and dollars.
1074
00:49:16,431 --> 00:49:18,601
- There wasn't a whole
lot of good versus evil.
1075
00:49:18,700 --> 00:49:20,803
It was more like every
comic was a wrestling match,
1076
00:49:20,901 --> 00:49:23,072
and how can we make each
issue more outrageous
1077
00:49:23,171 --> 00:49:25,641
than the previous one?
1078
00:49:25,740 --> 00:49:29,878
This didn't sit great
with me, personally,
1079
00:49:29,978 --> 00:49:32,648
nor did it with Alex Ross.
1080
00:49:32,747 --> 00:49:35,451
- Artist Alex Ross
and writer Mark Waid
1081
00:49:35,549 --> 00:49:37,820
came to DC with
complementary talents
1082
00:49:37,919 --> 00:49:42,491
and a shared belief in
what superheroes stood for.
1083
00:49:46,694 --> 00:49:48,764
- From about the
age of four or five
1084
00:49:48,862 --> 00:49:52,868
is when I first became
introduced to superheroes.
1085
00:49:52,968 --> 00:49:56,139
I liked the embodiment
1086
00:49:56,238 --> 00:49:58,374
of what Superman was
supposed to be...
1087
00:49:58,473 --> 00:50:01,044
All things good and
all things strong
1088
00:50:01,142 --> 00:50:03,846
in equal measure.
1089
00:50:03,945 --> 00:50:05,048
Every other character
1090
00:50:05,147 --> 00:50:06,749
was less powerful than this guy
1091
00:50:06,847 --> 00:50:10,319
who could effectively
make his will action.
1092
00:50:10,418 --> 00:50:12,421
- Alex and I were not interested
1093
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:16,159
in cynical characters
and cynical, dark comics.
1094
00:50:16,257 --> 00:50:19,462
I was interested
in these characters
1095
00:50:19,562 --> 00:50:20,896
as hopeful.
1096
00:50:20,995 --> 00:50:23,066
I was interested in these
characters as positive.
1097
00:50:23,165 --> 00:50:24,700
I was interested
in these characters
1098
00:50:24,799 --> 00:50:26,602
as something you
could look up to.
1099
00:50:26,701 --> 00:50:29,705
And let's take a new
look and a fresh look
1100
00:50:29,804 --> 00:50:32,575
at what these characters
bring to the table.
1101
00:50:37,678 --> 00:50:40,549
- In the summer of
1996, Ross and Wade
1102
00:50:40,648 --> 00:50:43,619
released the first
issue of "Kingdom Come,"
1103
00:50:43,718 --> 00:50:45,454
a resetting of the Superman myth
1104
00:50:45,553 --> 00:50:47,991
in which the Man of
Steel never died,
1105
00:50:48,089 --> 00:50:49,892
but went into voluntary exile,
1106
00:50:49,991 --> 00:50:52,528
leaving America in
the care of a younger,
1107
00:50:52,627 --> 00:50:55,631
more violent breed of superhero.
1108
00:50:55,729 --> 00:50:57,833
When their infighting
brings chaos,
1109
00:50:57,932 --> 00:51:01,637
Superman must return
to restore order.
1110
00:51:03,371 --> 00:51:04,974
- And at that moment,
1111
00:51:05,073 --> 00:51:06,842
all the comic
industry collapsed.
1112
00:51:06,941 --> 00:51:09,178
I got a note saying
every single contact
1113
00:51:09,277 --> 00:51:10,813
I have at Marvel is fired.
1114
00:51:10,907 --> 00:51:12,448
Marvel has declared bankruptcy.
1115
00:51:12,547 --> 00:51:15,751
- People realized they couldn't
keep flipping these books
1116
00:51:15,850 --> 00:51:17,220
to nonexistent customers,
1117
00:51:17,318 --> 00:51:19,288
and the industry
really collapsed,
1118
00:51:19,387 --> 00:51:22,558
and a lot of smaller
companies went away.
1119
00:51:24,225 --> 00:51:27,263
- When the bottom dropped out
of the collector's market,
1120
00:51:27,362 --> 00:51:28,664
Vertigo was still standing
1121
00:51:28,763 --> 00:51:30,466
because people were
not collecting them.
1122
00:51:30,564 --> 00:51:32,368
They were actually reading them.
1123
00:51:32,467 --> 00:51:34,203
- With the industry reeling,
1124
00:51:34,301 --> 00:51:38,307
Ross and Wade worked to finish
a tale that drew inspiration
1125
00:51:38,406 --> 00:51:39,909
from their own lives.
1126
00:51:40,007 --> 00:51:42,011
- Honestly, the first
intent of "Kingdom Come"
1127
00:51:42,105 --> 00:51:45,481
is I wanted to
paint a comic series
1128
00:51:45,579 --> 00:51:48,717
with the DC characters
hanging out with my father.
1129
00:51:48,816 --> 00:51:52,055
- Norman McCay, who is
the narrator of our story,
1130
00:51:52,152 --> 00:51:55,524
that's Alex's dad.
- My father was a minister.
1131
00:51:55,623 --> 00:51:57,994
And there's kind of
a humanitarian aspect
1132
00:51:58,091 --> 00:52:01,764
to that job that I
wanted to incorporate.
1133
00:52:01,863 --> 00:52:03,866
- Ross's father
serves as a stand-in
1134
00:52:03,964 --> 00:52:06,802
for ordinary people
and a moral compass
1135
00:52:06,902 --> 00:52:08,504
to the superhumans.
1136
00:52:08,602 --> 00:52:10,306
When Superman's plan to contain
1137
00:52:10,405 --> 00:52:12,575
the rogue superheroes fails,
1138
00:52:12,674 --> 00:52:15,311
the US Army launches
a nuclear strike
1139
00:52:15,409 --> 00:52:17,914
to eliminate them.
1140
00:52:27,521 --> 00:52:30,059
Furious, Superman retaliates.
1141
00:52:33,528 --> 00:52:36,732
But McCay stops
him with a rebuke.
1142
00:52:36,830 --> 00:52:40,669
Ordinary humans need a
say in their own lives
1143
00:52:40,768 --> 00:52:44,340
and will distrust superpower
unless it is matched
1144
00:52:44,439 --> 00:52:47,376
with equal restraint and wisdom.
1145
00:52:51,045 --> 00:52:55,518
McCay's words touch Superman,
and he makes a promise.
1146
00:52:55,616 --> 00:52:58,687
"The problems we
face still exist.
1147
00:52:58,786 --> 00:53:01,524
"We're not going to
solve them for you.
1148
00:53:01,623 --> 00:53:04,493
We're going to solve
them with you."
1149
00:53:06,427 --> 00:53:08,064
- That's what makes
Superman Superman.
1150
00:53:08,162 --> 00:53:11,034
Superman's greatest superpower
is not that he can fly
1151
00:53:11,132 --> 00:53:12,668
or that he can lift a car.
1152
00:53:12,767 --> 00:53:15,905
It's that with the
ability to do anything,
1153
00:53:16,004 --> 00:53:19,203
take anything, have
anything he wants,
1154
00:53:19,307 --> 00:53:23,412
he's selfless beyond reason.
1155
00:53:23,506 --> 00:53:25,982
He will never ever put
himself and his needs
1156
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,851
and his wants before
anyone else's.
1157
00:53:30,652 --> 00:53:33,256
That is an amazing superpower.
1158
00:53:35,823 --> 00:53:37,493
- Through all the
flaws of human beings,
1159
00:53:37,592 --> 00:53:39,195
we've actually
created characters
1160
00:53:39,294 --> 00:53:40,930
who are without flaws.
1161
00:53:41,029 --> 00:53:42,731
It kind of makes
humans better than God.
1162
00:53:42,830 --> 00:53:45,368
God could only make
a fallen humanity.
1163
00:53:45,466 --> 00:53:48,504
We made beings better than us.
1164
00:53:48,604 --> 00:53:49,838
That's kind of cool.
1165
00:53:49,938 --> 00:53:51,740
That shows an
imaginative facility
1166
00:53:51,839 --> 00:53:54,210
that we should be relying
on a little bit more
1167
00:53:54,309 --> 00:53:55,945
and trying to be more like that.
1168
00:53:56,044 --> 00:53:58,181
We have the capacity.
We built Superman.
1169
00:53:58,279 --> 00:53:59,848
We made Superman.
1170
00:53:59,947 --> 00:54:01,891
Superman can solve any problem,
however, we apply that.
1171
00:54:01,915 --> 00:54:04,587
- As the comics
business struggled
1172
00:54:04,685 --> 00:54:06,855
to rise from the ashes again,
1173
00:54:06,954 --> 00:54:11,560
salvation would come from
a chorus of unheard voices.
1174
00:54:11,659 --> 00:54:13,257
- When the characters
have been around
1175
00:54:13,361 --> 00:54:14,931
for 80-some-odd years,
1176
00:54:15,030 --> 00:54:16,465
you can go two ways.
1177
00:54:16,564 --> 00:54:18,801
One is to be very
traditional in your approach
1178
00:54:18,900 --> 00:54:21,170
or you could chart
a different path,
1179
00:54:21,269 --> 00:54:23,472
which is to really try
1180
00:54:23,571 --> 00:54:26,675
to revolutionize the universe.
1181
00:54:26,774 --> 00:54:29,545
To change things, bring
in different voices
1182
00:54:29,643 --> 00:54:32,048
behind the scenes
to create stories,
1183
00:54:32,146 --> 00:54:34,517
you have to constantly pump
new life into these characters.
1184
00:54:34,615 --> 00:54:36,819
Because like I keep saying,
it ain't the characters,
1185
00:54:36,919 --> 00:54:38,587
it's the creators.
1186
00:54:38,686 --> 00:54:41,257
- So we can reflect back
on those early stories
1187
00:54:41,356 --> 00:54:45,028
and breathe a different
kind of life into them.
1188
00:54:45,127 --> 00:54:47,263
And because of that,
it gives me hope.
1189
00:54:47,356 --> 00:54:50,166
It gives me hope that
the story can change.
1190
00:54:50,265 --> 00:54:52,902
- Comic books are the
dreams and aspirations
1191
00:54:53,001 --> 00:54:54,637
of human beings.
1192
00:54:54,735 --> 00:54:57,373
That's why we love comic books.
1193
00:54:57,472 --> 00:55:00,276
We think maybe if the conditions
1194
00:55:00,375 --> 00:55:02,678
present themselves,
1195
00:55:02,777 --> 00:55:05,881
we will be the
hero of the moment.92965
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