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1
00:02:13,342 --> 00:02:17,142
- Do you know why we
wanna talk to you Jon?
2
00:02:17,142 --> 00:02:19,050
- I don't know.
3
00:02:19,050 --> 00:02:19,983
I think so.
4
00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,520
- Why do you think we wanna talk to you?
5
00:02:24,933 --> 00:02:26,393
- About that boy.
6
00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:28,950
- Yes?
7
00:02:28,950 --> 00:02:31,585
- Because someone took him and killed him.
8
00:02:31,585 --> 00:02:32,418
- Yes.
9
00:02:32,418 --> 00:02:35,133
- It wasn't me, I never
went to Bootle Strand.
10
00:02:36,004 --> 00:02:38,010
- Well we're not gonna
talk about that just now.
11
00:02:38,010 --> 00:02:40,210
First we're gonna talk
about something else.
12
00:02:42,190 --> 00:02:43,690
Do you know what truth is Jon?
13
00:02:44,564 --> 00:02:45,397
- Yeah.
14
00:02:47,382 --> 00:02:51,465
- [Man] Jon, you tell us
what you think truth is.
15
00:02:52,684 --> 00:02:56,267
- That you've done
something and it's true.
16
00:02:57,686 --> 00:02:59,486
- And what if you were telling lies?
17
00:03:02,785 --> 00:03:04,035
- I don't know.
18
00:03:05,060 --> 00:03:06,293
- Is telling lies wrong?
19
00:03:07,366 --> 00:03:08,385
- Yeah.
20
00:03:08,385 --> 00:03:10,790
- So if I said that your face is green
21
00:03:10,790 --> 00:03:14,102
and your hair is pink,
would that be a lie?
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22
00:03:14,102 --> 00:03:15,766
- Yeah.
23
00:03:15,766 --> 00:03:17,723
- Okay, so you know what a lie is.
24
00:03:52,764 --> 00:03:55,480
- Robert, you've seen
the pictures on the TV
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25
00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,183
showing James and the two
boys who took him haven't you?
26
00:04:00,566 --> 00:04:03,243
- Yeah, it isn't me
cause I didn't take him.
27
00:04:04,662 --> 00:04:06,260
- Well there's a boy in
the video who has a jacket
28
00:04:06,260 --> 00:04:07,093
just like yours.
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29
00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,777
- There's lots of
jackets the same as mine.
30
00:04:10,777 --> 00:04:13,090
- But there's also a boy
with a jacket like Jon's
31
00:04:13,090 --> 00:04:15,020
walking next to James.
32
00:04:15,020 --> 00:04:16,893
- Well he's not walking with me.
33
00:04:18,102 --> 00:04:20,230
- But you were there weren't you?
34
00:04:20,230 --> 00:04:25,153
- Yeah, I was there, I saw
him but I didn't take him.
35
00:04:28,020 --> 00:04:29,810
- What was he doing?
36
00:04:29,810 --> 00:04:32,166
- He was just with his mum.
37
00:04:32,166 --> 00:04:34,385
He had a blue coat.
38
00:04:38,810 --> 00:04:41,062
- I think Jon you should know that Robert
39
00:04:41,062 --> 00:04:42,540
is at Walton Lane police station
40
00:04:42,540 --> 00:04:45,313
and he's told a different story
of what happened on Friday.
41
00:04:46,301 --> 00:04:49,126
- Robert probably told lies.
42
00:04:49,126 --> 00:04:51,505
- What do you think Robert lied about?
43
00:04:51,505 --> 00:04:53,169
- I don't know.
44
00:04:53,169 --> 00:04:54,669
Well you think I killed a kid.
45
00:04:55,809 --> 00:04:57,362
- No, they don't think that Jon.
46
00:04:57,362 --> 00:04:58,823
There's no need to get upset.
47
00:04:58,823 --> 00:05:01,126
- No one's saying that Jon.
48
00:05:01,126 --> 00:05:02,690
- They just want to
know where you've been.
49
00:05:02,690 --> 00:05:06,150
If you've been robbing all
day, you should tell them.
50
00:05:06,150 --> 00:05:08,643
- I never went to the Bootle Strand.
51
00:05:08,643 --> 00:05:10,010
- Now is that the truth, or a lie?
52
00:05:10,010 --> 00:05:10,873
- It's truth.
53
00:05:12,270 --> 00:05:13,240
- Jon told me earlier
54
00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,890
that Robert is going to
tell all kinds of lies.
55
00:05:15,890 --> 00:05:18,429
- Robbie took me to places I didn't know.
56
00:05:18,429 --> 00:05:20,133
- He's frightened because he doesn't know
57
00:05:20,133 --> 00:05:21,758
all the places, and Robert does.
58
00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:25,183
Was it the Bootle strand?
59
00:05:26,145 --> 00:05:26,978
- No.
60
00:05:26,978 --> 00:05:29,286
- You see Robert says
that he was with you,
61
00:05:29,286 --> 00:05:31,793
and that were you indeed in
Bootle New Strand together.
62
00:05:31,793 --> 00:05:32,626
- He wasn't.
63
00:05:32,626 --> 00:05:33,459
- Robert says you were.
64
00:05:33,459 --> 00:05:34,892
- Yeah, we was,
65
00:05:34,892 --> 00:05:36,390
but we never saw any kids there,
66
00:05:36,390 --> 00:05:38,307
we never robbed any kids.
67
00:05:38,307 --> 00:05:39,932
- So you were in Bootle New Strand?
68
00:05:39,932 --> 00:05:41,110
- Was you in Bootle Strand?
69
00:05:41,110 --> 00:05:42,990
- Yeah, but we never got a kid Mum,
70
00:05:42,990 --> 00:05:45,154
we never, we haven't got a kid.
71
00:05:45,154 --> 00:05:45,987
- Mrs. Venables, would you?
72
00:05:45,987 --> 00:05:48,323
I must ask you not to get angry with him.
73
00:05:48,323 --> 00:05:50,188
- We never got a kid mum, we never,
74
00:05:50,188 --> 00:05:52,144
we always do that together,
75
00:05:52,144 --> 00:05:54,184
but we never done a kid Mum,
76
00:05:54,184 --> 00:05:56,210
mum we never done a kid, we didn't,
77
00:05:56,210 --> 00:05:57,293
we never Mum.
78
00:06:06,082 --> 00:06:07,825
- I think you saw more of James,
79
00:06:07,825 --> 00:06:08,828
because you wouldn't remember
80
00:06:08,828 --> 00:06:10,268
a blue coat from a brief glance.
81
00:06:10,268 --> 00:06:11,446
- I never took him.
82
00:06:11,446 --> 00:06:12,279
- Well we believe
83
00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,810
that you left with baby
James and with Jon.
84
00:06:14,810 --> 00:06:16,090
- Says who?
85
00:06:16,090 --> 00:06:17,200
- We say.
86
00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,323
- No, I never left with him.
87
00:06:21,020 --> 00:06:23,868
- Well tell me what happened then.
88
00:06:23,868 --> 00:06:25,701
- I never touched him.
89
00:06:27,345 --> 00:06:28,860
I never touched him.
90
00:06:28,860 --> 00:06:31,220
- That's why you noticed his anorak,
91
00:06:31,220 --> 00:06:34,860
because Jon had hold of
his hand, isn't that right?
92
00:06:37,341 --> 00:06:39,670
- Yeah, Jon grabbed
hold of the baby's hand
93
00:06:39,670 --> 00:06:41,870
and just walked around with him for a bit,
94
00:06:41,870 --> 00:06:44,490
but then he let him go loose.
95
00:06:44,490 --> 00:06:46,550
- [Man] Where did Jon let him go?
96
00:06:46,550 --> 00:06:47,583
- By the church.
97
00:06:48,482 --> 00:06:49,888
I told Jon to take him back.
98
00:06:49,888 --> 00:06:50,760
- Well I have a statement from a woman,
99
00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:52,520
who says that she saw two boys
100
00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,116
with a baby on the reservoir.
101
00:06:55,116 --> 00:06:56,924
Now I think that's you and
102
00:06:56,924 --> 00:06:57,840
Jon, with James.
103
00:06:58,608 --> 00:07:00,024
What's happened him?
104
00:07:00,522 --> 00:07:02,380
We just found him at
the bottom of the hill.
105
00:07:03,234 --> 00:07:05,191
Did he have a fall?
106
00:07:05,191 --> 00:07:06,624
That's a bad bruise.
107
00:07:07,031 --> 00:07:08,797
He was like that when we found him.
108
00:07:08,876 --> 00:07:11,038
You best take him to
Walton Lane Police Station.
109
00:07:11,038 --> 00:07:12,779
Do you know where it is?
110
00:07:13,203 --> 00:07:14,969
Yeah, we'll bring him now.
111
00:07:28,217 --> 00:07:30,740
- You knew that I went to Bootle Strand.
112
00:07:30,740 --> 00:07:32,757
- I would have strangled ye, yeah.
113
00:07:32,757 --> 00:07:36,617
- And one of you thought
I killed a kid, I never.
114
00:07:36,617 --> 00:07:38,534
- I'd never think that.
115
00:07:40,878 --> 00:07:42,244
- Because I would have told,
116
00:07:42,244 --> 00:07:45,044
because I thought you'd think I'd done it.
117
00:07:45,044 --> 00:07:47,430
- If I would have known all this now, Jon,
118
00:07:47,430 --> 00:07:50,623
I would have had you down the
police station right away,
119
00:07:50,623 --> 00:07:52,727
instead of them banging on our front door
120
00:07:52,727 --> 00:07:55,330
making a show of me in the street.
121
00:07:58,441 --> 00:08:01,524
- I thought you'd think I killed him.
122
00:08:36,433 --> 00:08:39,032
We just found him - he
was lost at the Strand.
123
00:08:39,032 --> 00:08:41,589
We're bringing him to
the police station now.
124
00:08:41,589 --> 00:08:43,923
If you found him by the
Strand why didn't you
125
00:08:43,923 --> 00:08:46,289
bring him to the police
station by the Strand?
126
00:08:46,289 --> 00:08:48,955
We were bringing him to
Walton Lane Police Station.
127
00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,389
You've come an awfully
long way from the Strand
128
00:08:52,389 --> 00:08:53,847
to Walton Lane Police Station.
129
00:08:53,862 --> 00:08:56,395
Well that's where the man directed us.
130
00:08:56,413 --> 00:08:57,521
Where do you live?
131
00:08:58,161 --> 00:08:58,994
Eh...
132
00:08:58,994 --> 00:09:01,010
The police station is on the way home.
133
00:09:02,187 --> 00:09:04,254
Are you alright?
134
00:09:07,042 --> 00:09:09,075
We'll bring him to the police station.
135
00:09:09,990 --> 00:09:11,431
Would you mind looking after my little
136
00:09:11,431 --> 00:09:12,956
girl while I take him
to the police station?
137
00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,277
Oh, my dog doesn't like children.
138
00:09:16,277 --> 00:09:18,118
He's afraid of them.
139
00:09:18,123 --> 00:09:19,264
Sorry.
140
00:09:19,402 --> 00:09:21,377
Okay, boys. Do you know
which way you're going?
141
00:09:21,394 --> 00:09:24,252
Yeah. We know.
142
00:09:26,136 --> 00:09:28,069
Are you sure you know the way?
143
00:09:28,089 --> 00:09:30,022
I go that way, Missus.
144
00:09:42,921 --> 00:09:45,830
- So, you did leave with James then?
145
00:09:45,830 --> 00:09:48,663
- Yeah, we went to the Strand
146
00:09:48,663 --> 00:09:49,520
and then we picked little James up.
147
00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:51,457
Well, he, Jon did.
148
00:09:52,761 --> 00:09:54,236
- Right.
149
00:09:54,236 --> 00:09:56,659
- And we took him down
and left him on the Howe.
150
00:09:56,659 --> 00:09:57,737
- On the Howe?
151
00:09:57,737 --> 00:09:59,147
- By the railway.
152
00:09:59,147 --> 00:10:00,953
- Why did you leave James there?
153
00:10:01,877 --> 00:10:02,710
- Because if we took him
to the police station
154
00:10:02,710 --> 00:10:04,330
then we'd have to go inside.
155
00:10:04,330 --> 00:10:07,690
He wasn't crying anymore,
he was just looking round.
156
00:10:07,690 --> 00:10:08,790
He'd only had a graze.
157
00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,521
- Now would you have left
baby Ben,
158
00:10:12,521 --> 00:10:14,560
your brother there, if he was two?
159
00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:16,860
- No, because he's my brother.
160
00:10:17,742 --> 00:10:19,430
- And would you have left a similar boy?
161
00:10:19,430 --> 00:10:24,142
- He's not though, he's
not any relation to us.
162
00:10:24,142 --> 00:10:25,892
Mum, is Jon getting asked this?
163
00:10:27,762 --> 00:10:29,982
- Robert says that you
took James by the hand,
164
00:10:29,982 --> 00:10:32,220
and led him out of the Strand shops.
165
00:10:32,220 --> 00:10:33,796
- He never, we never.
166
00:10:33,796 --> 00:10:35,442
- No, not we, Robert is saying
167
00:10:35,442 --> 00:10:36,643
that you took him by the hand.
168
00:10:36,643 --> 00:10:37,641
- We never.
169
00:10:37,641 --> 00:10:39,660
- Not Robert, you did it.
170
00:10:39,660 --> 00:10:40,665
- I never.
171
00:10:40,665 --> 00:10:42,105
- Well why would Robert say that then?
172
00:10:42,105 --> 00:10:43,977
- He's a liar!
173
00:10:43,977 --> 00:10:45,721
I never took him by the hand,
174
00:10:45,721 --> 00:10:48,318
I never even touched the baby!
175
00:10:48,318 --> 00:10:49,675
- Jon, are you all right to carry on?
176
00:10:49,675 --> 00:10:50,681
- Yeah.
177
00:10:50,681 --> 00:10:51,980
- Jon, look at me.
178
00:10:51,980 --> 00:10:55,230
If you want to stop at
any time, you just say so.
179
00:10:55,230 --> 00:10:57,497
- You need to tell the truth Jon,
180
00:10:57,497 --> 00:10:59,316
because you keep telling us stories.
181
00:10:59,316 --> 00:11:01,017
- I never got the boy.
182
00:11:01,017 --> 00:11:03,897
- If you never got the
boy, tell us what happened.
183
00:11:03,897 --> 00:11:07,218
Was it Robert?
184
00:11:07,218 --> 00:11:08,537
You're nodding your head.
185
00:11:08,537 --> 00:11:11,204
- Yeah, he left him in the road.
186
00:11:12,418 --> 00:11:14,041
- Right, let's go back to the Strand then.
187
00:11:14,041 --> 00:11:15,577
- I never took a boy Mum, I never.
188
00:11:15,577 --> 00:11:16,410
- Okay.
189
00:11:19,939 --> 00:11:22,297
- Come here son, all right, come on.
190
00:11:22,297 --> 00:11:23,463
Settle yourself down.
191
00:11:24,318 --> 00:11:26,718
- I can't, I never touched him.
192
00:11:26,718 --> 00:11:29,471
- Sit down, go to your mum.
193
00:11:29,471 --> 00:11:31,250
- You're going to get me crying now, look.
194
00:11:31,250 --> 00:11:32,469
- I never Mum.
195
00:11:32,469 --> 00:11:36,453
- I know you wouldn't do
anything to a little one.
196
00:11:36,453 --> 00:11:37,813
- All right, now,
197
00:11:37,813 --> 00:11:40,431
why don't you tell us what happened Jon.
198
00:11:40,431 --> 00:11:41,760
- I never dropped him on his own.
199
00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,620
- Tell me the truth now Jon, please.
200
00:11:44,620 --> 00:11:46,060
- I never killed him Mum,
201
00:11:46,906 --> 00:11:49,245
but I took him and left
the canal Mum, that's all.
202
00:11:49,245 --> 00:11:50,709
- You left him at the canal?
203
00:11:50,709 --> 00:11:51,706
By the Strand?
204
00:11:51,706 --> 00:11:52,709
- Yeah.
205
00:11:52,709 --> 00:11:54,069
- Where did you find
the boy in the Strand?
206
00:11:54,069 --> 00:11:56,485
- I dunno, he was just
walking around on his own.
207
00:11:56,485 --> 00:11:59,306
I never killed him Mum,
I never killed him Mum,
208
00:11:59,306 --> 00:12:00,565
I wouldn't hurt a baby.
209
00:12:00,565 --> 00:12:02,003
- I know you wouldn't hurt a baby.
210
00:12:02,003 --> 00:12:03,029
- I wanna go home.
211
00:12:03,029 --> 00:12:05,125
I'm only saying what yous wanna know.
212
00:12:05,125 --> 00:12:06,906
you're gonna put me in jail.
213
00:12:06,906 --> 00:12:08,506
I never.
214
00:12:20,470 --> 00:12:23,220
- You see Robert, if James was bleeding,
215
00:12:23,220 --> 00:12:25,800
and we find his blood on
your clothes or Jon's,
216
00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,567
then we'd know that you were there
217
00:12:27,567 --> 00:12:28,400
when he was bleeding.
218
00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,517
- But how would you know
it was baby James's blood?
219
00:12:30,517 --> 00:12:32,820
- We'd know because we have his body.
220
00:12:32,820 --> 00:12:33,653
- Where?
221
00:12:34,886 --> 00:12:36,470
- Well it doesn't matter where.
222
00:12:36,470 --> 00:12:38,360
- He's probably been
to the hospital first.
223
00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:39,193
- Why?
224
00:12:40,646 --> 00:12:43,860
- To take blood from his
arm, like they did with you.
225
00:12:43,860 --> 00:12:45,783
- They can try to get him alive again?
226
00:12:46,869 --> 00:12:47,702
- No.
227
00:12:48,589 --> 00:12:49,951
- No.
228
00:12:49,951 --> 00:12:51,750
They can't do that.
229
00:12:51,750 --> 00:12:53,770
- I was told he got chopped in half.
230
00:12:53,770 --> 00:12:56,510
Well he couldn't come
alive again, could he?
231
00:12:56,510 --> 00:12:57,960
If he'd been chopped in half.
232
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:03,354
The blood might be mine
233
00:13:03,354 --> 00:13:04,363
if I was bleeding from a cut.
234
00:13:14,565 --> 00:13:16,067
I never murdered him.
235
00:13:16,067 --> 00:13:19,650
Yous are trying to say
that I murdered him.
236
00:13:19,650 --> 00:13:21,830
Why aren't yous doing this to Jon?
237
00:13:21,830 --> 00:13:24,913
Ask Jon, I never touched him.
238
00:14:02,860 --> 00:14:06,086
- Jon, your Dad and I want to
say something to you,
239
00:14:06,086 --> 00:14:08,545
and it's important, right?
240
00:14:08,545 --> 00:14:09,378
- Okay.
241
00:14:10,584 --> 00:14:13,004
- We want you to know that
242
00:14:13,004 --> 00:14:15,337
we love you, very very much.
243
00:14:17,002 --> 00:14:18,752
- More than anything.
244
00:14:20,525 --> 00:14:23,724
- And nothing's going
to change that, okay?
245
00:14:23,724 --> 00:14:24,557
- Okay.
246
00:14:26,570 --> 00:14:28,420
- What I'm trying to say Jon, is that
247
00:14:29,564 --> 00:14:31,345
no matter what happens.
248
00:14:31,345 --> 00:14:33,222
No matter what you've done,
249
00:14:33,222 --> 00:14:34,917
even if it's really, really bad,
250
00:14:37,699 --> 00:14:40,444
we always love you, you
know that, don't you?
251
00:14:40,444 --> 00:14:41,277
- Yeah.
252
00:14:43,244 --> 00:14:45,411
- We always love you, Jon,
253
00:14:46,726 --> 00:14:50,000
but you've got to tell the truth.
254
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:50,833
- Mum.
255
00:14:57,227 --> 00:14:59,310
Mum I wanted to tell you.
256
00:15:04,944 --> 00:15:06,194
I did kill him.
257
00:15:30,784 --> 00:15:32,367
What about his mum?
258
00:15:33,604 --> 00:15:35,937
Will you tell her I'm sorry?
259
00:15:41,744 --> 00:15:42,733
- [Man] Where did you find James?
260
00:15:44,923 --> 00:15:46,320
- At the butcher's.
261
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,120
- And who's idea was it to take him?
262
00:15:49,787 --> 00:15:51,344
- Mine.
263
00:15:51,344 --> 00:15:54,110
Then it was Robert's idea to kill him.
264
00:15:54,110 --> 00:15:56,923
- Why did you wanna take him?
265
00:15:56,923 --> 00:15:58,863
- I just said to Robert,
266
00:15:58,863 --> 00:16:01,323
"Is that boy lost or something?"
267
00:16:01,323 --> 00:16:04,485
We were looking around
for his mum for a bit,
268
00:16:04,485 --> 00:16:05,984
but then we got fed up,
269
00:16:05,984 --> 00:16:09,483
and we went outside to the canal.
270
00:16:17,285 --> 00:16:20,565
Then we picked him up, and
threw him on the floor.
271
00:16:20,565 --> 00:16:23,563
And that's when he got
the bump on his head.
272
00:16:23,563 --> 00:16:25,024
- Was he crying then?
273
00:16:25,024 --> 00:16:25,857
- Yeah.
274
00:16:35,002 --> 00:16:37,298
- But then we came back,
275
00:16:37,298 --> 00:16:40,541
and he was already walking up to us.
276
00:16:56,211 --> 00:16:58,869
I'm sick of having my little brother.
277
00:16:58,890 --> 00:17:01,040
I have him at school all the time.
278
00:17:01,046 --> 00:17:03,471
I'm going to tell my mum I
aint going to mind him no more.
279
00:17:06,225 --> 00:17:07,866
Come on.
280
00:17:40,532 --> 00:17:43,193
We got to the railway bridge.
281
00:17:43,193 --> 00:17:44,723
And Robert opened the paint tin.
282
00:17:45,652 --> 00:17:49,943
And then he threw it in James's face.
283
00:17:52,708 --> 00:17:54,258
I can't tell you anything else.
284
00:17:55,444 --> 00:17:56,277
- Why?
285
00:17:58,431 --> 00:18:01,014
- Because that's the worst bit.
286
00:18:03,433 --> 00:18:04,600
- Okay, right.
287
00:18:06,932 --> 00:18:09,369
I know that's the worst bit,
288
00:18:09,369 --> 00:18:10,889
but you know what you did,
289
00:18:10,889 --> 00:18:13,529
and if you try hard
you'll be able to tell us.
290
00:18:13,529 --> 00:18:15,070
Just have a little rest,
291
00:18:15,070 --> 00:18:19,593
think about it and just
tell us what happened.
292
00:18:19,593 --> 00:18:21,912
- We took him on the railway,
293
00:18:21,912 --> 00:18:24,153
and started throwing bricks at him.
294
00:18:24,153 --> 00:18:24,986
- Who did?
295
00:18:26,233 --> 00:18:27,066
- Robbie.
296
00:18:29,273 --> 00:18:32,532
He just said, he said "stand there",
297
00:18:32,532 --> 00:18:35,412
and we’ll get you a
plaster or something.
298
00:18:35,412 --> 00:18:40,412
Then he lifted this brick
up, and threw it in his face.
299
00:18:40,669 --> 00:18:42,727
- You've denied a lot of things Robert,
h
318
00:18:42,727 --> 00:18:44,270
and then admitted them.
300
00:18:44,270 --> 00:18:46,089
We were right about those things,
301
00:18:46,089 --> 00:18:47,686
and we're right about this as well.
302
00:18:47,686 --> 00:18:50,313
- Well, I didn't kill them.
303
00:18:50,313 --> 00:18:51,390
- If you just tell them the truth
304
00:18:51,390 --> 00:18:52,810
this'll all be over in a few minutes.
305
00:18:52,810 --> 00:18:55,170
- Jon threw a brick in his face.
306
00:18:55,170 --> 00:18:56,532
- Why?
307
00:18:56,532 --> 00:18:58,030
- I don't know.
308
00:18:58,030 --> 00:18:59,113
- Right.
309
00:18:59,113 --> 00:19:01,040
We’re getting there, aren’t we?
310
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:02,850
We’re getting to the truth now.
311
00:19:02,850 --> 00:19:05,710
- Yeah well, I'm gonna end
up getting all the blame,
312
00:19:05,710 --> 00:19:07,353
because I got blood on me.
313
00:19:07,353 --> 00:19:09,870
- What happened after Jon threw the brick?
314
00:19:09,870 --> 00:19:10,850
- The brick hit him in his face
315
00:19:10,850 --> 00:19:13,146
and he fell over on the floor.
316
00:19:13,146 --> 00:19:14,852
- Why the hell didn’t you just leave?
317
00:19:14,852 --> 00:19:16,900
- I did, after that I ran.
318
00:19:16,900 --> 00:19:18,490
I left Jon on his own.
319
00:19:19,605 --> 00:19:20,868
- What was the baby doing?
320
00:19:20,868 --> 00:19:22,800
- He was just on the floor, crying.
321
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:24,357
- Was he awake or asleep?
322
00:19:25,230 --> 00:19:27,107
- What you mean?
323
00:19:27,107 --> 00:19:28,388
- Was he asleep or...
324
00:19:28,388 --> 00:19:29,638
- He was awake.
325
00:19:31,449 --> 00:19:33,706
- Then Robbie said,
326
00:19:33,706 --> 00:19:37,070
"Pick up a brick, and throw it",
327
00:19:37,070 --> 00:19:38,153
but I just...
328
00:19:39,986 --> 00:19:41,986
I threw it on the floor.
329
00:19:43,104 --> 00:19:44,852
I missed on purpose
330
00:19:44,852 --> 00:19:48,928
because I didn't wanna hurt him
331
00:19:48,928 --> 00:19:51,252
But then Robbie picked up the same brick
332
00:19:51,252 --> 00:19:53,570
and he threw it again.
333
00:19:53,570 --> 00:19:56,867
- I don't think that you've
told us the full truth.
334
00:19:56,867 --> 00:19:58,409
- That's all I seen.
335
00:19:58,409 --> 00:20:00,788
- Well I think you know
about things that happened
336
00:20:00,788 --> 00:20:02,106
and it doesn't explain a lot of things.
337
00:20:02,106 --> 00:20:03,280
- And you were there like, and seen me?
338
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:04,660
- No.
339
00:20:04,660 --> 00:20:07,010
But we can tell what
happened from his injuries.
340
00:20:07,010 --> 00:20:09,428
- Why would I take
flowers over to the baby
341
00:20:09,428 --> 00:20:10,910
if I killed him?
342
00:20:10,910 --> 00:20:12,692
- I know the truth.
343
00:20:12,692 --> 00:20:13,790
I believe I know the truth.
344
00:20:13,790 --> 00:20:15,972
- So do I, I was there.
345
00:20:15,972 --> 00:20:16,968
- That's right.
346
00:20:16,968 --> 00:20:18,135
- You weren't.
347
00:20:20,430 --> 00:20:23,600
- Then Robbie threw about ten bricks,
348
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:25,293
I only threw six or five,
349
00:20:27,049 --> 00:20:29,049
but I missed James,
350
00:20:29,049 --> 00:20:31,663
and hit him in the arm,
351
00:20:31,663 --> 00:20:34,468
because I never meant
to hit him in the arm,
352
00:20:34,468 --> 00:20:36,985
I wanted to throw the
brick to the side of him.
353
00:20:36,985 --> 00:20:38,842
- Was he bleeding?
354
00:20:38,842 --> 00:20:39,759
- All over.
355
00:20:42,825 --> 00:20:44,265
- It's all our family.
356
00:20:44,265 --> 00:20:46,341
It's always our family
that gets the blame.
357
00:20:46,341 --> 00:20:48,517
- Your family might have
got blame in the past,
358
00:20:48,517 --> 00:20:50,324
but on this occasion
we're right, aren't we?
359
00:20:50,324 --> 00:20:52,838
- No, because I never touched him.
360
00:20:52,838 --> 00:20:54,920
- Tell us what happened then.
361
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:56,404
- Jon threw another brick.
362
00:20:56,404 --> 00:20:57,940
- Where did that hit him?
363
00:20:57,940 --> 00:20:59,401
- On there.
364
00:20:59,401 --> 00:21:00,543
- What happened then?
365
00:21:00,543 --> 00:21:01,641
- Then he hit him again
366
00:21:01,641 --> 00:21:03,799
with a big metal thing
that had holes in it.
367
00:21:03,799 --> 00:21:05,620
- Where did he hit him with that?
368
00:21:05,620 --> 00:21:06,642
- In the head.
369
00:21:06,642 --> 00:21:08,782
He just went like that and hit him.
370
00:21:10,501 --> 00:21:12,596
- He hit him with the bar,
371
00:21:12,596 --> 00:21:14,841
and I think he was knocked out.
372
00:21:14,841 --> 00:21:16,820
Then we threw a few bricks at him,
373
00:21:16,820 --> 00:21:18,541
and we ran away.
374
00:21:18,541 --> 00:21:20,383
- Why did you run away?
375
00:21:20,383 --> 00:21:21,216
- I dunno,
376
00:21:22,260 --> 00:21:24,643
I just said to Robert,
377
00:21:24,643 --> 00:21:28,143
"Don't you think we done enough now?"
378
00:21:28,143 --> 00:21:30,302
- Were you angry with James?
379
00:21:30,302 --> 00:21:31,135
- No.
380
00:21:32,041 --> 00:21:34,500
I didn't even wanna hurt him.
381
00:21:34,500 --> 00:21:36,256
I didn't wanna hurt him or nothing,
382
00:21:36,256 --> 00:21:40,002
because I didn't wanna hurt
him with strong things,
383
00:21:40,002 --> 00:21:42,223
only like light things.
384
00:21:42,223 --> 00:21:46,056
- So you only wanted to
hurt him a little bit?
385
00:21:48,383 --> 00:21:50,216
- Answer the question.
386
00:21:51,620 --> 00:21:55,287
- Why did you want to
hurt him a little bit?
387
00:21:56,719 --> 00:21:59,469
- I didn't wanna hurt him really.
388
00:22:00,536 --> 00:22:02,036
Robert probably...
389
00:22:03,016 --> 00:22:06,294
Robbie's probably done
it for fun or something,
390
00:22:06,294 --> 00:22:09,377
because he was laughing his head off.
391
00:22:10,369 --> 00:22:11,939
- Why did you do all this?
392
00:22:11,939 --> 00:22:13,435
Why did Jon do all this?
393
00:22:13,435 --> 00:22:14,440
- I don't know.
394
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:15,822
That's what I don't know.
395
00:22:15,822 --> 00:22:16,862
- I don't believe, Robert,
396
00:22:16,862 --> 00:22:18,062
that you just stood idly by
397
00:22:18,062 --> 00:22:19,994
while Jon did all those things.
398
00:22:19,994 --> 00:22:21,662
- Well I was trying to pull Jon back.
399
00:22:21,662 --> 00:22:22,942
- Jon has admitted to throwing stones,
400
00:22:22,942 --> 00:22:24,158
things like that,
401
00:22:24,158 --> 00:22:26,717
but he's also blaming
you on a lot of things.
402
00:22:26,717 --> 00:22:28,622
- I don't think Jon did everything.
403
00:22:28,622 --> 00:22:30,520
- Yeah, well, I never.
404
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:31,720
- I think you hit him.
405
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,182
- Well that's what you think.
406
00:22:33,182 --> 00:22:34,339
- There's only one person here
407
00:22:34,339 --> 00:22:35,502
that knows the whole truth.
408
00:22:35,502 --> 00:22:38,339
- I know, and I've just said it all.
409
00:22:38,339 --> 00:22:39,598
I know I never hit him
410
00:22:39,598 --> 00:22:42,598
so I've got nothing to bother about.
411
00:22:43,717 --> 00:22:44,550
- I can't.
412
00:22:46,622 --> 00:22:49,705
I can't sit through any more of this.
413
00:22:51,518 --> 00:22:55,563
- [Man] Did either of you
take James's clothes off?
414
00:22:55,563 --> 00:22:58,958
- [Jon] Robbie pulled his
pants off, and his undies,
415
00:22:58,958 --> 00:23:01,208
and I pulled his shoes off.
416
00:23:03,662 --> 00:23:04,662
- [Man] Why?
417
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:07,859
- I don't know why,
418
00:23:07,859 --> 00:23:11,502
it was last week, I keep forgetting.
419
00:23:11,502 --> 00:23:13,278
I don't really know now Dad,
420
00:23:13,278 --> 00:23:16,760
he's asking me too hard questions.
421
00:23:54,580 --> 00:23:56,258
- Why would I wanna kill a baby
422
00:23:56,258 --> 00:23:57,840
when I've got a baby of me own?
423
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,020
If I wanted to kill a baby I'd kill...
424
00:24:00,020 --> 00:24:02,519
I'd kill me own wouldn't I?
425
00:24:02,519 --> 00:24:04,140
- Well you said your own baby's family,
426
00:24:04,140 --> 00:24:04,973
didn't you?
427
00:24:05,996 --> 00:24:07,113
- What do you mean?
428
00:24:07,113 --> 00:24:07,946
- That's what you said.
429
00:24:07,946 --> 00:24:09,470
- I know he's me family, I'm not stupid.
430
00:24:09,470 --> 00:24:11,777
I don't even know what
you're going on about?
431
00:24:11,777 --> 00:24:14,080
- When James's body was found,
432
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:15,930
his bottom clothing had been removed.
433
00:24:16,830 --> 00:24:19,276
Can you tell us why that is?
434
00:24:19,276 --> 00:24:20,359
- No.
435
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,716
- Did you start playing with him?
436
00:24:22,716 --> 00:24:23,633
- With who?
437
00:24:24,974 --> 00:24:26,817
- [Man] With James's bottom?
438
00:24:26,817 --> 00:24:28,136
- No.
439
00:24:28,136 --> 00:24:29,420
- Are you sure now?
440
00:24:29,420 --> 00:24:30,396
- Yeah.
441
00:24:30,396 --> 00:24:31,229
I'm not a pervert, you know.
442
00:24:31,229 --> 00:24:32,818
- Jon says it was you
443
00:24:32,818 --> 00:24:34,754
who pulled off his pants,
and his underpants.
444
00:24:34,754 --> 00:24:35,820
- So in other words,
445
00:24:35,820 --> 00:24:36,653
you're taking what Jon says
446
00:24:36,653 --> 00:24:37,760
and just ignoring me?
447
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,090
So I'll ignore you.
448
00:24:39,090 --> 00:24:41,040
- There was an injury to James's mouth.
449
00:24:42,978 --> 00:24:43,950
Do you know anything about that?
450
00:24:43,950 --> 00:24:45,580
- No.
451
00:24:45,580 --> 00:24:46,493
I'm not answering any more.
452
00:24:47,470 --> 00:24:48,770
- I think there's still some things
453
00:24:48,770 --> 00:24:49,970
you haven't told us Jon.
454
00:24:51,639 --> 00:24:52,600
The batteries.
455
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,836
Why were the batteries there?
456
00:24:55,836 --> 00:24:56,916
- I dunno.
457
00:24:56,916 --> 00:24:58,418
- I think you do know Jon.
458
00:24:58,418 --> 00:24:59,559
- I never put them there,
459
00:24:59,559 --> 00:25:00,940
Robbie just threw them.
460
00:25:00,940 --> 00:25:02,578
- It was a little bit
more than throwing them.
461
00:25:02,578 --> 00:25:03,980
- I dunno.
462
00:25:03,980 --> 00:25:05,613
I don't know Dad.
463
00:25:05,613 --> 00:25:06,796
- Jon, is it horrible
464
00:25:06,796 --> 00:25:08,459
what happened to the batteries?
465
00:25:08,459 --> 00:25:09,458
- I don't know anything
466
00:25:09,458 --> 00:25:11,239
about what Robert did with the batteries.
467
00:25:11,239 --> 00:25:12,338
- Why are you crying then?
468
00:25:12,338 --> 00:25:13,676
- Because you'll blame it on me,
469
00:25:13,676 --> 00:25:14,898
that I had them.
470
00:25:14,898 --> 00:25:16,220
I don't know about the batteries,
471
00:25:16,220 --> 00:25:18,174
I don't know, I don't know.
472
00:25:18,174 --> 00:25:20,073
- Hey, hey Jon, don't punch your Dad.
473
00:25:20,073 --> 00:25:21,980
- Me Dad doesn't know, and I don't.
474
00:25:21,980 --> 00:25:23,719
You're saying I do, and I don't.
475
00:25:23,719 --> 00:25:25,157
I don't know anything about it.
476
00:25:25,157 --> 00:25:26,490
- Calm down Jon.
477
00:25:27,740 --> 00:25:30,018
Can you tell us what
happened to James's mouth?
478
00:25:30,018 --> 00:25:31,879
- I don’t know, I never saw nothing.
479
00:25:31,879 --> 00:25:33,596
- Jon, you've got to admit to yourself,
480
00:25:33,596 --> 00:25:35,495
you saw everything that happened there,
481
00:25:35,495 --> 00:25:37,138
because you were a part of it.
482
00:25:37,138 --> 00:25:38,396
- No I never!
483
00:25:38,396 --> 00:25:40,199
- So you can't say you didn't see.
484
00:25:40,199 --> 00:25:41,820
- I don't know, I don't.
485
00:25:41,820 --> 00:25:45,032
Make it stop, make it stop Dad.
486
00:25:45,032 --> 00:25:46,894
Please make it stop, make it stop,
487
00:25:46,894 --> 00:25:50,311
make it stop, make it stop, make it stop!
488
00:27:15,068 --> 00:27:17,401
Look, that's us.
489
00:27:17,921 --> 00:27:19,862
There's a lot of those around.
490
00:27:19,912 --> 00:27:22,628
You don't need them now, do you?
491
00:27:26,554 --> 00:27:28,629
How come my picture is in black and white?
492
00:27:28,629 --> 00:27:30,454
And Robert's isn't?
493
00:27:33,204 --> 00:27:35,354
I don't know, Jon.
494
00:27:48,041 --> 00:27:50,857
- Was that a train going past?
495
00:27:50,857 --> 00:27:52,042
- Yeah.
496
00:27:52,042 --> 00:27:54,125
- I know all them trains.
34636
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