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[Music] [Music] [Music] David he believes that you're fixin to hit him tonight he says no we are not fixing to hit you that is not true nobody's coming in there okay you got my word it's solid it's a thousand percent absolute okay okay I know I know that everybody's skittish but you know we just gotta work on the kids wait [Music] oh no no no reason [Music] what is God intending to bring out of this situation if we do our part as his servants the government does their part as whoever they are in the plan of God what is it that God plans to bring out of it that's the way they thought [Music] we never went in we did not introduce fired to this compound it was not our intention that this compound be burned down I can't tell you the shock and the horror that all of us felt when we saw those flames coming out there it was oh my god they're killing themselves [Music] I just hope everyone doesn't jump to making decisions with before they've heard our sizes right now all you're getting is the prep you're being very perverted you read best god read your Bible know what you talking about what are you doing with your life what do you do every day when your life is something God approves up I mean why are you judge us make sure your own life is clean you know I mean we're being perfect we believe that this thing had to be brought to a logical conclusion at some point we never fired one single round of ammunition whether rules of engagement by the FBI what were they yes they were that they would not shoot unless someone's life was in danger the joint hearings to the oversight Subcommittee on crime will now come to order the gentleman from North Carolina mr. Coble for five minutes thank the gentleman in the fall of 1993 Treasury and justice issued their respective reports about Waco Treasury in effect said well ATF blew it we were the bad guys justice on the other hand exonerates the FBI well folks when I read when I got those two reports I thought this is all too coincidental one group conveniently assuming blame the other group what walks waltzing away with no blame this is the approach of what I call the lunatic fringe still clings to the notion that there was a gigantic governmental conspiracy that brought about this nightmare it's difficult to see how any rational human being subscribed to subscribes to such a notion but obviously many do what I am Telling You is that the most plausible single explanation for this nightmare namely the apocalyptic vision of a criminally insane charismatic cult leader who was hell-bent on bringing about this infernal nightmare in flames and the extermination of the children and the women and the other innocence is not an explanation that should be cast aside revelation states that Christ has the key of David only he can open it up and shut there's 150 Psalms here some people find it amazing that I know every one of them Vernon Howell thinks he's the Lamb of God when all he is is a cheap thug who interprets the Bible through the barrel of a gun now they're making self-serving statements that ATF opened fire there was an element and the press conferences every day to demonize David and it was through the language you know cult leader David Koresh and compound and bunker and militarized the situation so that nothing ever positive came there was never any sense of telling the public well who are these people I'm poor leader well you had a bunch of women children elderly people they were all good good people they had different beliefs and there's different beliefs and I never maybe different beliefs and you have and their way of life and especially in their religious beliefs but basically they were good people I was around them quite a lot they were always a nice man early they minded their own business they were never overbearing they were always clean and courteous I liked and what brings you all the way from England a nice lovely home of which I've seen in Benin what brings you to America to a place called Waco Texas or whack wake of whack with Texas anybody want to speak first I've always wanted to know understand the Bible and I wanted to know about the seven seals and I met somebody you can show me the center-field I have my passages my businesses I was informants in their faces nobody show me and now I found what I've been looking for the home video shown throughout this film is the only record of the Davidians during the 51-day siege it was made because the FBI gave them a camera and asked them to talk about themselves control the FBI showed those tapes to no one and in its report admits that it did not do that because it thought that those tapes would have won sympathy for Koresh of course the public heard of David Koresh in February of 93 but the history of the group goes back for about 50 years long before David Koresh was even born the Branch Davidians are a break off from the seventh-day Adventist Church Advent meaning the second coming of Jesus the Davidians starting with a man by the name of Victor Montes in the 1930s and 40s believed that God had once again visited his people with a living prophet that's the key victor heart of claim to be that living prophet and moved his followers to waco texas from southern california during the 1930s living outside town and cottages the Davidians studied the bible as literal truth the book of Revelation and its cryptic seven seals was their focus Christians generally believe the seals tell God's plan sequence of events leading to Judgment Day and that their true meaning can only be explained by the Lamb of God the Messiah who'll come during the last days five years after hottes death in 1954 all davidians gathered at Mount Carmel they believed Armageddon the Bible's predicted final battle between good and evil was close [Music] we feel that world conditions are such in the line with prophecy that all nations are soon to gather again in Jerusalem to battle in fact we expect that to be the spring the Davidian church almost disappeared after that but then in Lois Road and kept a small group together [Music] Lois led the Davidians after her husband died and it was she who tutored young Vernon Howell as her understudy when Louis Roden died a leadership conflict between Howell and her son George dubbed the madman of Waco split the Davidians so Holly jihad there it's what you have with Khomeini against Israel you've got a Vernon Howell against me the majority backed Howell when George chased them off at gunpoint Powell and his followers moved to Palestine Texas where they live together in buses in tents after an armed confrontation between the two rivals Vernon Howell became the new Davidian leader George Rowton was later convicted of murder in an unrelated matter during a pilgrimage to Israel how I believed God chose him to be a contemporary Cyrus and free God's chosen people just as the ancient Persian king Cyrus had defeated the Babylonians and freed the captive Jews on returning to the United States he legally changed his first name to David honoring the Hebrew king David and his last name to Koresh after the Messiah Koresh mentioned in the Book of Isaiah Koresh is the Hebrew word for Cyrus what he essentially claimed was not to be God or not to be Jesus Christ the Davidians believe that Jesus Christ is in heaven and they are Christian in the broad sense but he claimed to be a final christ figure an anointed one the word Christ really doesn't refer just to Jesus but it means somebody that shows in her scent or anointed he claimed to be that final one that's mentioned in the book of Revelation the seventh messenger the final messenger it's to come and he also found himself prophesied and throughout this Hebrew Scriptures but particularly the Book of Isaiah and many of the Psalms and very detailed ways and he would go through the scriptures and find the references to a sinfulness son and he says my sins are more than the hairs of my head who could this be oh this time when Christ reveals and stuff is gonna be according to the book cuz there's some statements in there that might make you a little bit happy ok such as the rest of silence 40 Lord I have preached the righteousness in a great congregation what's he gonna preach fact the sinful Messiah phrase got picked up by the Waco Tribune Herald and pushed in the wrong direction the claim of korish and its followers was not go out and deliberately sent but unlike Christ this one will not be without sin he'll be an ordinary human being who does sin attracted by Koresh's biblical teachings new members increase the Davidians numbers in 1991 they recycled the lumber from the cottages and built the communal church that became familiar during the siege [Music] as a multiracial congregation of all ages from around the world residents contributed both their labor and money earned by work around Waco to support the spiritual life of Mount Carmel you [Music] DubLi the crash was the messiah i think he was a messiah the allegations of child abuse and instances of violence in the pastor are generally are these things generally consistent with with the religious groups that you've studied the pattern of allegations is a very familiar one I mean the way people described what was going on inside convents sounds an awful lot like what we hear people describing going on inside the Branch Davidians or what people thought as was referred to earlier about what was going on with the Mormons in their early history oh I think it's very important for us both to take those allegations seriously in the sense of actually investigating them but also to realize that there is this predictable pattern once a group has decided that they want to live very differently and see the rest of us is wrong that we're also likely to respond with a variety of kinds of fears and expectations and exaggerations the two things about the group that I guess created the most sensation would be the reported sexual irregularities polygamy and so forth you know underage women marrying David and the arms it makes nobody's business whether we have a gun or not at this place guns are the right of Americans to have arguments the greatest in the world we have freedom not freedom for religion not freedom for a state but freedom for all you see and that's what a lot of people don't understand what he usually quoted is a scripture from Jesus on the night of his arrest where Jesus did not resist Jesus says from now on from now on let him who has no sword by one your King David have swords did Jesus tell the Apostles to carry sword with you yes in other words say get ready for the future this is for the little children right God knows how it should be Stars and Stripes a-flying give us justice and liberty for the children's sake you know you might have to bear a gun one day now how does that translate into say the communal living even the sexual arrangements of the group it's still textually based at the time of the end those who have wives should live as though they have none that's a teaching in the New Testament and then it explains the whole Catholic teaching on celibacy you see this here hey this is my family may not be like your family now David kooris himself obviously is not living the celibate life the family that you just show that is yours is that family mentioned in the scriptures anything to do with the seven seals you answer that y'all answer that I mean I just is my great wonderful looks something that just women can't resist huh and as everything to do with the seal it has everything to do with the seals you know despite all the sneers and Snickers that that would cause on the part of the public what they believed is that although celibacy is the way for the group that this figure this final figure has the obligation to beget twenty four children and he has multiple wives it's in prophecy in other words might have been convenient but this is what they found a lot of believes people have may seem abnormal absord strange to other people that doesn't mean that it's not right though and these twenty four children are to become the 24 elders that are to rule the earth and they found these various prophecies he would have claimed and did claim that this was nothing to do with sensuality or sexual desire essentially it was for procreation and he believed that these children through the selected wives would be pure and like no children ever born there the beginning of the New Eden you know our children know how to respect they know how to be mindful they know how to do Michael's they see it here they see it in the parents we subject ourselves to God rule beating unto God we follow the pattern about that God would have us to do they would be raised completely in the community they would have never eaten the even the diet of the world that a phial world out there never watched TV never participated in all the things that he saw as a corruption of the culture that's how they would explain it I think that all you got kids in the supermarkets who run and scream and who eat all this junk food all the time and all this candy I think if you look at the children you'll see the actual product of a parent after the Waco disaster Allen stone a Harvard professor of both law and psychiatry was asked to serve on a United States Department of Justice panel examining law enforcement policy toward unconventional groups like the Branch Davidians and leaders like David Koresh I think Koresh was not a criminal psychopathic type he had as a youngster spent months memorizing the Bible and particularly these particular passages about the seven seals and that sort of repetitive study memorization of throwing herself into that kind of disciplined project is not what sociopaths do and he was able to convince the other people by his knowledge of the Bible and the way he put it together that's how he convinced people like mr. Martin and mr. Schneider were both intelligent serious people mr. Martin was a graduate of Harvard Law School he was one of our earliest african-american graduates he was certainly not a weirdo he was certainly not a criminal he was certainly not a psychopath he had gone on and done further religious studies after leaving Harvard Law School and had become interested in Koresh's tea Kings that is how he got into the compound so the idea that these people like Schneider and and Martin or somehow criminal types or people who had just been sort of buffaloed by Koresh I think is a most unfortunate mischaracterization in contrast to somebody though like Jim Jones of the Jonestown disaster Koresh did not really exercise this stunning spellbinding mesmerizing stare you down sort of approach nobody you talked to the Davidians that have survived none of them come out talking about oh boy when David spoke I just felt like you know that was God that isn't how they talk they don't even have that sort of pious feeling why do the heathen rage what's their problem and the people imagine a vain thing what are they thinking their thoughts are make-believe it's a vanity their thoughts are vain I mean nothing to myself I want to know what truth is I'm searching for it he happens to be the vehicle that shows me I thank God thank you great you see the son of God I hope he is could you kind of describe for us how your findings differ from the rest of the reports who are the reporters who have covered this story first I want to say thanks for reading my book well you're welcome always does the biggest surprise I encountered in writing this book is that I had no competitors and naturally my conclusions differ or my questions differ because I learned a lot more than they did because they abandoned the story when the building burned down now of course there were some who didn't abandoned quite as quickly as others but in general this represents a major major failure of the press in our country one of the prophecies that had been around Mount Carmel since 1934 call for an ultimate confrontation between God's people or those at Mount Carmel and the forces of an armed apostate power called Babylon perhaps with that in mind in 1991 he began studying armaments and buying and selling guns he pretty quickly found out there's a lot of money to be made at gun shows and he and other people started going to gun shows and they bought and sold we now say or the press now says and most people say they stockpile weapons all gun dealers stockpile weapons all gun shops stockpile weapons we call those stockpiles and inventory how can one use firearms as an investment the journeys that he was buying would go up in value no question okay and do you know other people who do that yes not uncommon by there was obviously you know firearms that were there and there were a lot of individuals that had their own firearms and there were you know quite an amount of firearms but being in Texas you know we had people come from the community out sir property and shoot with us on our firing range and it was not really a big deal you know I went to a couple gun shows before I'm not enthusiastic all to say the least but I went to a couple gun shows I met some people and you know some of our neighbors I would talk to had themselves they had like 10 and 12 guns just in their little family you know so I just kind of called the good-old-boy senator my go-to boy you know kind of mentality down in Texas and it's a constitutional right it's not you know evil or demonized did you state in your book at page 122 that you thought that the ATF was seeking to enforce unconstitutional firearms laws I found a scholar who studied the constitutional history of firearms laws and whose opinion is that they may not be constitutional I was quite impressed to find out that that argument could be made and thought readers deserved a chance to to see it well now that you've studied it and written and promoted it what do you think now whether or not they're constitutional aren't you worried about that yo whether they're constitutional if the findings of these professors are trustworthy that is a question to be litigated in the courts I understand I mean it's nice to write a book about what may or may not be constitutional and unconstitutional but yet when you come here to testify well there's no question now that you've thought about it this is not so unconstitutional as as you would have thought I know just a moment I didn't do I didn't mr. chairman I think it is incumbent upon all of the city of these witnesses and I don't see what harm would would result or ensue if the gentlemen were allowed to explain perhaps a response he didn't get a chance to do I think we have to distinguish between illegality and constitutionality whether or not the arms laws are constitutional will be at this point the courts say they are tomorrow they may say different because of the research I cite in my book at this time I believe that all of you have some testimony in front of you from kiri Jewell Kari welcome and thank you for being here you can begin when Mom and Lisa and I went to Texas for Passover in 1991 David preached to us I sat on the floor playing with his shoelaces while he talked my mom and Lisa went to do a little shopping I took a shower and then I was brushing my hair sitting in the chair and David took me told me to come and sit down by him in the bed I was wearing a long white t-shirt and panties he kissed me and sat there but then he laid me down and he took his penis I've been very very critical of the presentation earlier in this hearing of the victimization of kiri Jewell because as serious as child rape is of course the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms was conducting a firearms law investigation and search and the issue of mr. Koretz depravity is not what they were investigating or going to serve a search warrant for and I think that that testimony was put into this hearing to take newspaper headlines and other media attention away from a lot of the testimony about the law enforcement participation in the rape I'd like to just introduce the biographies of the panel dick Guerin is a widely recognized defense attorney in the state of Texas he represented David Koresh and entered the compound during the siege what I call so introduced mr. Jackson Zimmerman also a well known and respected attorney he represented Steve Snyder he also gathered firsthand evidence upon entering the compound during the siege in addition to being a defense attorney mr. Zimmerman is a colonel in the United States Marine Corps Reserve he practices as a military judge to very credible witnesses welcome you are saying mr. Guerin I saw in David Koresh not a person who was insane a person who was deeply committed and sincere about his religious beliefs well I am sorry for you if that's what you see in him this was not a bunch of people who'd had who'd been hypnotized these people that I saw and I met almost everybody in there that died in that fire these people believed they believed in the Bible some people had been there as long as 40 years some people had been born and raised there they were there because they believed in a a vision of the Bible that was unusual I don't understand it I mean and these scholars have a difficult time understanding it but it was real you can't legislate away that in fact the First Amendment says that we can't do anything about that do you doubt the testimony of kiri Jewell who was here did you hear about that yes I did you doubt that yes do you doubt that miss yes sir okay do you know why yeah you can tell me why that that we didn't learn of that the first time when that she testified for this hearing she's made that that kind of claim has been made for some time her own mother didn't believe that her own grandmother didn't believe that right there's been doubts about prior two contradictory statements that she's made in the past now it may be a hundred percent true just because my time is up in my judgment in many ways these witnesses are trying to simply deny things that just about everybody else accepts as fact about David Koresh and I'd like we worked on that for a couple of years in fact we had the Department of Human Services go out and interview some of the kids and and whatever they could do I had people go out with them to interview to this day we don't have a case that we can make against Vernon Howell or anyone for child abuse even though the news media here and other people kept saying this isn't what happened a man from Australia said this is what happened but we can never get them to give us anything more than just we know that's what happened you have to have proof to go into court keep in mind too that most of the girls who were involved were were at least 14 years old and 14 year-olds get married with parental consent so if their parents there and letting them letting things happen in the way of sexual activities and what have you with their 14 year old kids you have common-law husbands and wives I don't say that I agree with that and that I approve of it but at the same time if parents are there and they're giving parental consent we have a problem with that in making a case my investigations convinced me that David Koresh was guilty of statutory rape but I don't understand why two-thirds of the search warrant is about child abuse and statutory rape when the ATF has no jurisdiction over those offenses we determined that at the compound machine guns were being manufactured and explosive devices our goal through this investigation was to execute a search warrant on that house to obtain those illegal weapons in addition it had reason to believe that Koresh iners followers might pose a danger not only to themselves but but to the surrounding community I think in the case of the Davidians if people had listened carefully to their rhetoric with an ear toward an understanding of religious apocalyptic language would probably not have been worried about them using these weapons against their neighbors in a word what the search warrant found was gun parts it was the duty of the ATF to show that those gun parts were owned with an intent to create illegal weapons I'm not a lawyer or a judge but my reading of the warrant does not convince me that that intent was there do you say it's not been proven that there were 48 illegal machine guns and a bunch of illegal hand grenades on his compound I believe there were 48 illegal automatic weapons on April the 19th I don't know that's a case on February 28 sir I see but there were weapons about hand grenades was there testimony about that I would they don't know I don't recall that do you recall mr. de Guerra no I don't know and even though you know every other detail about the trial that's not fair mr. Schumer do you doubt that there were 48 illegal weapons I never said I knew all the details of the trial right now sir what is your question my question is do you doubt do you have doubts that mr. kourosh had on his compound illegal weapons and illegal hand grenades no have any doubts about that no he tricked me he had illegal you have not tell me that he had hand grenades there I see and I saw no hand grenades I did see some grenades that the ATF had thrown in and I brought one out what'd he do thrown in the ATF threw in grenades in their dynamic grenades in his eye yes they'd and it I thought wow they were flashbacks they did not see what a flashbang can do to somebody and it's a grenade it has an explosive charge in it it's very dangerous it can blow your hand off it can blow your face off it can kill I would have brought out some of the unexpended grenades that the ATF threw in but I was worried about bringing out a live grenade so I left them there there were a number of grenades okay mr. de Guerre and I think that would hamper your credibility because you're the first person who would say that that was were grenades I've never really sat through a hearing the way the likes of yesterday six and a half hours of defense lawyers they're marathons their ways of sliding over the truth was very unfortunate this idea of the FBI having hand grenades not flashbangs but hand grenades and finally coup de Gras mr. de Garin said flash bangers can kill injure maim anyone who knows anything about these things knows they can't mr. Kavanaugh I have in my hand here a mount of play-doh mr. Bush if you could this is just just standard play-doh if that were a flashbang grenade or a stun grenade the same thing which was live which pin had been pulled would you feel comfortable just holding that in your hand well mr. Barr a flashbang grenade my answer is no I would not want to hold it those are classified as destructive devices under 26 USC Section 5845 a foreign thing yes sir they are that they can kill people is that true sir yes sir well a gentleman by the name of Warren L Parker an explosives enforcement officer Bureau of ATF on May 11 1994 in court said under oath that they are designed to help kill the suspect while not endangering the law-enforcement officer when they're used for those purposes I'd like to focus on the search warrant first it was put together as a number of witnesses have testified in a prejudicial and inflammatory manner and second it clearly missed States the US Code statute number for the offense charge and I think makes other technical mistakes in the law which means to me it was put together in a sloppy fashion now you put together inflammatory was sloppy that translates to me that that ATF was in a hurry to make a big splash with something why was a warrant sought in the first place since David kooris on learning that he was being investigated by ATF invited the agency on July 30th 1992 through his gun dealer Henry McMahon to come to his residence and inspect his firearms and I go I got David Koresh on the phone in Davie Aguilera he goes it jumps up and does goes don't go don't go and I know I got him on the phone and he goes they never once followed up on that offer never even tried to follow up on that offer I can't imagine any circumstances that I would not take up such an offer perhaps what the ATF thought were violations of the law were really things that mr. Koresh thought were legal suggest and that's that what they really wanted to do was to conduct a raid not make an arrest or conduct a search in the opinion of the agents this the planning for Waco and the the manner in which it was done was done for the purpose of publicity miss Hartnett there's a rumored surely it's unfounded that the publicity person or public relations person for ATF had released some kind of a press communication the night before to media around the country that something big was going to come down in Texas yes and we heard that and she called called a reporter to ask if he was going to be in what did she do that she wanted to be able to get a hold of them if there was a story and they recovered these arms wouldn't it be ample time after they were recovered oh yes I mean what happened is that I contacted channel 8 and Channel five in Dallas I just said we might have something going on here in Dallas this weekend and I'd like to have a weekend contact number and that's what I was given what was the purpose of contacting them were you actually seeking publicity for the agency absolutely okay maybe then I don't understand the purpose for contacting them with its appropriations hearings a week away a large successful raid would produce major positive headlines to counter the ATF's reputation as a rogue agency whose debacles blackened the reputation of other agencies and it would scare the public enough about fringe groups to create political pressure on Congress to increase its budget at least part of the ATF motivation even if it never rose to the surface of discussion was to enforce the morals of our society to enforce the psyche of right thinking by retaliating against these odd people let me just ask mr. Moulton was there a cover-up absolutely not not by the Treasury Department in the preparation of that report absolutely not do you agree with that comment no I don't why I feel that the Treasury Department has said things since the time of the rate of Waco that that have been incorrect it also had many omissions distortions and false statements in it why do you believe those divisions and false statements are in that report I believe that they were concerned about the fallout from the media where these agents knowingly out done before they started we weren't outgunned at Waco that's for sure almost 100 agents spent three days in dress rehearsals at Fort Hood Texas all at US Army expense in order for the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms to have obtained the military assistance they did receive not because of the Posse Comitatus Act because of existing military policy they misrepresented to the military that this was an anti-drug raid when it was never an anti-drug raid unfortunately there are many people who still when they speak to me about Waco say well those people were involved in drugs and there's no evidence that Koresh was or that any of these people were as practicing lawyers we know that usually judges rubber-stamp the applications for search warrant the Fourth Amendment guarantees the right of the people to be secure in their persons houses papers and effects ironically a charred copy of the very amendment was found in the debris at Waco there's the charred copy that was found right there at Waco the morning of February 28th ATF and Texas Department of Public Safety officers blocked the roads leading to Mount Carmel center several miles away the raid gene was busy suiting up fully expecting to surprise the Davidians [Music] Sharon wheeler had ample videotape for the many cameras that agency officials thought would record a major publicity coup most of the 130 men women and children inside Mount Carmel learned about the raid only minutes before it happened the news people were out there 30 minutes before the raid that's how supposedly they were tipped off I'm used person about the time I got there David came in from the other side different side of the room and came in and said that they'd heard that somebody was coming and he wanted everybody to remain calm go back to their rooms and just stay cool he would go down the front door and talk to them you're with Koresh correct he gets very nervous did you request that the raid be called off because the element of surprise had been lost yes sir I arrived at the command post and the first thing the first thing I asked was was Chuck where's Chuck and they advised me that he had left at that time I started yelling and and I said why why they know we're coming they know we're coming I did not feel he knew that we were coming at that time when I talked with Robert like I testified before I took notes why we were talking over the thing and I've read all of Roberts statements Robert did it did a great job but I think everything that you heard Fire's testimony was not passed on to me those two men no no what I told him and then you exactly what I meant and instead of coming up and and admitted to the American people right after the raid that they had made a mistake that the element of surprise had been lost that the agent had advised him that they knew they were coming instead of doing that they lied to the public and in doing so it just about destroyed a very great agency the helicopters were to arrive first at the rear of Mount Carmel and divert the Davidians attention from the ATF agents moving in on the ground the front approximately 9:15 we sell three helicopters two small ones and a large one and we sat there and watched him there making big loops behind the compound just sort of certainly not to compound it behind it and I got the camera out seeded to shoot the helicopter spying around got three of them the camera back in we look up and the channel trailer goes by its a chuck full of ATF agents and we're sitting there in about two three four seconds later another cattle trailer goes by I saw a truck come in and her long truck in the front then this long thing the second truck stopped and barely stopped in the man jumped out and all kind of whatever Garrett was he had on and he had a gun in his hand he says okay boys then I heard a voice to the right of me downstairs Patel was at the door then I heard a voice on the outside then I heard another voice inside and then I heard shots outside and when we drove up the Davidians opened fire and I'm sickened by any other assertion I sat there and I watched it and the gunfire came through those double white doors I watched it it's unbelievable but that's what happened and anybody else who says anything different they shot first and if I thought that an ATF agent would drive up in front of a structure and shoot I throw my badge in the garbage it didn't happen if the Branch Davidians intended to ambush those people with 48 machine guns and fifty caliber machine guns and they came up in unprotected cattle cars with nothing but tarps on them they would have blown them a way so that convinced us that they did not that is the Davidians did not fire first I sat by that door for several hours I went in and out of that door 10 times and I saw the bullet holes on the door on the right side almost every bullet hole was an incoming round and what I mean by that it's a metal door you could easily tell that the bullets were incoming rounds they were punched in I'm not the the marine expert that Jack Zimmerman is but I've been hunting since I was 10 years old and I know a bullet hole when I see it and those were bullet holes that were punched in of course the majority of bullet holes would be through would be going in that direction because the Davidians are not going to keep the door closed and shoot through it what you need to find is a video tape that was made of the raid it disappeared what you need to get is the photographs of the front that are similar to the one that's being displayed right now now you have the power to get that evidence and you ought to get it that is not fair that is not a proceeding that is right if we want to go over the issue of who fired first then we should wait a second I'd like to finish my point it's not a point it is a point if it is not a point of water you are I will just make one comment to the witnesses relative to the videotape in the front door we have consistently asked as a committee to get a copy of a videotape which they now say is blank we have asked for the door and the door is missing first cattle trailer had already pulled up the second one was pulling up when we got about halfway down the driveway and all hell broke loose urban NOC search warrant you know with a knock on the door and served a warrant and you have one group a ATF agency goes to the front of the building music a very large end up area that we had for Vaughan an Alaskan Malamute and her four pups that we're living there and they shot him in cold blood first thing this was an unreasonable search done in an unreasonable manner with excessive force and the law is clear even an arrest by lawfully constituted officers can be resisted if before anything else happens those officers use excessive force they a couple of agents or a couple of detectives walking up to somebody's front door or knocking on a door and three-piece suits to execute a warrant of any kind is over and that's where we stand we stay in between the Koresh's of the world and everybody here we stand more enforcement first 15-20 minutes it was get the job done shoot the video and then when you see people getting shot you can hear people screaming and the bullets hitting I have $2.00 I started thinking about my daughters and at that point I wondered how the heck am I gonna get out of here somebody said to me Winston Blake is dead I said where's the yeah maybe he's up in his room so as I'm approaching Winston's room I could hear water running and I couldn't figure it out you know what would that be you know as I turned into his doorway Winston's lying on the floor beside his bed and a pool of blood and water and there's water pouring into the room from just dozens of bullet holes in the water tank that was right outside his window and the window was all shattered and everything I figured that judging from the angle of the bullets coming down from the outside and into the room that it had to be from helicopter there's no buildings tall buildings out the back anybody on the ground could have shot at that angle into the water tanks the Davidians shot back the helicopter landing in the foreground has been forced down by multiple hits 17 year old Peter Ghent was inside the silo scraping rust when the raid began Jed is barely visible in this news video as he climbed to the top to see what was going on the video apparently shows him being shot for this passing helicopter friend Jen Walters and then drops back onto the saddles didn't move his body what happened with your fingers you were just sitting there and I was told you were nursing the baby we're sitting there and ATF agent says newsman newsman call an ambulance Vanina Daymond John got back into the car and this is he was reaching the car he opened the door and a bullet went through the door jamb that he drove into the car and we had to physically make the phone call and this is my understanding the first time that name is have been called this was wail ended again down battle for some reason they didn't have any communications why would we have to call for an ambulance nobody was going to get us out though in Clinton County Sheriff's Office who always did a good job in this case could not get us out of this we couldn't call 9-1-1 I mean we couldn't call anybody well it just seems interesting to me that they didn't even have telephones or communications to get that 911 back and forth that Wayne Martin had from inside the compound for 20 minutes trying to stop the shooting but at the same time they had fax machines telephones and computers and were ready for whatever PR that they had that that was a mighty mighty strange operation to say the least and certainly a fatal flaw not to punt of worry mr. hot net was there a raid plan we had pieces of it if you know what I mean that they hadn't brought it together was right in the middle of an order going out to the field giving them specific instructions and had a written raid plan how to bring it together and forward it forward what was out for coordination at the time now what I received was written but very very abbreviated in your review did ATF and their participating in this close combat support did they have go no-go procedures yes sir but of a very I'm looking for the appropriate words I've just called him unsophisticated variety an unsophisticated variety that's very tactful you're being very tactful today in your report you didn't you weren't as tactful because you said their lack of contingency plan basically was quote a no-shit plan isn't that basically what you that those were like they were run from the building take cover oh [ __ ] they were throwing everything at us and they're gonna sound like cannons and arguing sound like top guns we had nine millimeters they were hitting us the 223 1847 50 calibers but it was more than you can imagine [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] after about approximately two hours we heard that there were the truth we heard ATF agent say don't shoot don't shoot the agents were out of ammunition they could have killed it nearly ever ATF agent out there the day of the raid had they kept shooting but when they said they would leave their property and they quit shooting [Music] you guard with me you come argue with me you come pointing guns in the direction of my wives and my kids damn it I'll I'll eat you Thor any time and I'm sorry some of you guys got shot but uh hey God will have to sort that out the chair recognizes mrs. Taylor from Mississippi you have any combat experience 26 months sir commanded two artillery batteries in Vietnam in Vietnam yes sir miss Airmen have you seen anything or heard anything that would lead you to believe or read anything that justifies the murder of those four ATF agents the 20 more who were wounded by the branch civilians by David Koresh and his followers on the morning of February 28th the jury in San Antonio found that the killings of the four agents were in self-defense they were acquitted of murder sir did you know that they were acquitted of murder and acquitted of conspiracy to commit murder every single defendant all eleven were acquitted of murder are you going to tell me that every murderer in this country who's walked was really innocent well you asked me did we know of anything that would say that they weren't guilty of murder and the answer is yes if the ATF accidentally or however opened fire on people in their home and all they did was defend themselves in their home then under the law that's justifiable homicide it's not murder is there any way that somebody could believe that justifiable homicide could be used as a defense here no mr. Schumer they shot through the doors they shot through the ceilings assertions that we had helicopters are men from Mars shooting at them's nonsense our agents were laying on the ground shooting at a tower three stories high should we be surprised there's bullets in the roof of course I agree with you mr. I'm sorry thank you must understand that not one agent who was at the raid on the scene on the 28th made a written report of it that's highly irregular I March the first the ATF initiates a shooting review Johnston the assistant United States attorney advised Hartnett to stop the ATF shooting review because ATF was creating Brady material Brady material ladies and gentlemen is information that might tend to show that someone accused is innocent some they try to explain this to say well that just meant you know we have we don't want to put copper the prosecution you don't want to compromise the prosecution by revealing evidence it might tend to show that somebody is not guilty of the charges well that's not where we are in this country I hope that's just one agency all the other agencies back there are going to back them up that's including our federal government we the people don't run this government anymore they do and they tell all the lies they want [Music] those that are trying to do their best are trying to do the job they have a family back home too but they don't understand what is doing if they did they would shortly after the wounded arrived armed guard stood sentry at hospital entrances ATF agents comforted each other as they found out the toll taken in this raid 15 agents were brought to Hillcrest Baptist Medical Center three of them died including one agent who was shot in the head [Music] Oh [Applause] okay I'm bleeding again my top 20 minute [Applause] [Music] let's say one of the holes here that was nice caught up higher thank piston one out right here phone whose yesterday that's a good we gotta turn more [Music] [Applause] [Music] this has been [Music] way to go you can see it anyway it's kind of thankful Oh ain't nothin some guy like me it's just flash heels some Davidian mothers sent their children out of Mount Carmel as they were delivered to a rendezvous point news reports said three Davidians tried to escape by shooting their way past ATF agents the story was false investigators in a military helicopter discovered the body approximately 350 yards from the cult compound he was the victim of gunshot wounds on it and basically that's on the phone front Jim Cavanaugh was trying to get that maybe what you might want the media to believe there's other people that fall to now tell me Jim again you're honestly gonna say those helicopters didn't fire on any of us I'm here yeah well I'm saying is that those helicopters did not have mounted guns okay I'm not disputing the fact that there's fire from the helicopters what I'm telling you is we're still mounted guns you know outside mounted guns the helicopters had guns the dispute was over I believe Germans that you said that they didn't fire on us from the helmet on well a few some pounds of God yeah but beside the point what they did have was machine guns on March 1st the be ATF handed control to the FBI my name is Dan Hartnett the deputy director of the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms I'm going to make a brief statement each they're going to make a brief statement and then we'll open it up to questions my name is Jeff Jamar I'm gonna specialize in charge of the FBI in the san antonio division and then the specialize in charge of FBI operations here in Waco miss J am I our first name is Jeff we're here because David Koresh and his followers killed four ATF agents we've responded with with necessary of personnel and equipment the area is a crime scene the goal is to resolve this situation ultimately in federal court with no further bloodshed the FBI is getting involved now but uh it's kind of like getting into a fight with a couple of next-door neighbors where the you know the little brother comes over and whips you and then the big brother comes over to investigate you know anyway we're try to work inside we're prepared to do whatever it takes stay here as long as it takes to settle this matter without any further bloodshed [Music] the Davidians were completely surrounded FBI snipers were placed in sandbag positions here and here their clear field of fire meant anyone trying to leave would easily be gunned down Sierra 1 was the code name for the front half of Mount Carmel Center it was the side news cameras saw through telescopic lenses a mile or two away ciara - was the back half of Mount Carmel it was completely hidden from public view it was the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms that caused this first disaster okay so the FBI takes it over there very sensible reasonable they decide we'll negotiate they quickly realized that the negotiators were not in charge in Koresh at one point says look all you guys are anyway are waitresses you carry my my request back to the kitchen where the boss is they say look I can't make the decisions if I could things would go better but the decisions are being made 1,500 miles away in Washington DC [Music] the information that I have to share with people can you say what cog sensitive TV little more details exactly after 1:30 you're waiting for him you finally make contact what does he say the question was what did God say to the chorus he says that he did not fulfill his promise to leave immediately with his followers because God told him to wait and Schneider says in Koresh afterwards later says look we didn't lie this is like you guys telling us you're not going to turn off the lights or one thing or another and getting overruled from above we have our chain of command you have your chain of command but if there is a higher power than you and I that speaks to an individual if there is a God in this universe and there's the laws of man and there's the laws of God and this God that has led him all his life says to him to wait what do you do yes yeah I said that five times Koresh promised to come out and didn't dr. Arnold dr. Taber and I sent a message to them we said show us the five times we can't find him in the negotiation transcripts we think they're making that up we find no incidents those of us who listened to the negotiation tapes and stayed the transcript of Koresh line I'll March the second he said he was coming out and then said God told him not to he if any lies were told it was that and we would have to know what God said to Koresh in order to call that a lie do you people believe that Koresh is actually talking to God crash believes he's talking together the FBI wasn't prepared to share David Koresh's contention that we should wait on God to resolve this the FBI is wrong it's going to decide how this is going to be done [Music] bringing these tanks and stuff around here I tell you what being an American first I'm the kind of guy but I'll stand in front of a tank you can run over me I'll be biting one of the tracks no one's gonna hurt me or my families that's that sense that's American policy here agent Pete's Merrick who was in charge of drawing up the psychological profile of Korus counseled a cautious non confrontational approach with korish and four memos written to senior FBI officials between March 3rd and March 8th according to mr. Samaras FBI superiors pressured him to change his assessment to justify a more confrontational approach they would do things like play sound tapes of rabbits being slaughtered or Nancy Sinatra singing good songs and and then they would bring out lights at night and not not that Nancy Sinatra always was that bad but the ones that she had kept the point was this they were trying to have sleep disturbance and they were trying to take somebody that they viewed to be unstable to start with and then they were trying to drive him crazy and then they get mad because he does something that they think is irrational [Music] these [Music] that's what you have a couple of Arkansas so these finest members of the SWAT team this one here is quite a quite a nice specimen I tell you I just in all my years involved with SWAT I've never seen a gentleman like this that I've learned so much from and just the short time I've been around you it's just awesome is about the only word to describe him hey holy to a fine edge to kill that's that's right they just see just a Rambo he's just like Rambo out here himself yes right here mister ricks is there a consideration to use psychological warfare have you discussed it at all I don't know what psychological warfare is this it was reported in the paper that you would play loud music bright lights on the compound all night to try to agitate the entire group is that a possible we will we will not discuss tactics of that sort but I would say the chances are minimal of doing that type of activity yes ma'am [Music] day seven fines reporters facing a banner reading god help us we want the Press reporters responds with a statement of their own the warners anyway getting some leaflets down to the media bill Latham drove from Dallas Fort Worth to volunteer the services of the Ku Klux Klan we're just tired I mean we've been watching it about there in Fort Worth in dallas and we're tired of what to drag on like this I'm either give him a get my ultimatum get my deadline when I first is asked to be involved as a number of panel I thought the main problem is going to be understanding the psychology of the people inside the compound but as I got into it I quickly became aware that the psychology of the people outside the compound was more important to an understanding of what happened they were mooning that the women for instance they would drop their pants and bend over and bare their rear end to people that were looking out the windows which was you know not a situation that some of the women or even some of the men we want to send nobody's gotta be above these guys though it's vehicles and what they're doing do not show what is coming out of the out of the mouths of some of you guys let me give you an example now that we brought this up we had a burial for one of the people out front Peter gent was buried out front and the tanks ran over his grave over and over and over again just totally like wasn't even there and they knew that's where we buried them they just kept running over and over it and we were disgusted with that we talked about that quite a bit I mean I thought this was the country you know freedom of speech being motivation whatever and just human dignity they saw all this as working from a military point of view because the people inside the compound the Branch Davidians weren't shooting back so they saw themselves as winning the battle as they tighten but they didn't realize what we're driving them to the point of desperation to my family and friends I just like to say I'm fine I know that you're all worried about us I don't have to know that we're fine right now and everything right now and is just waiting in God whatever happens we know it's the way that God wanted to see if they thought that we were all brain Washington and such a bunch of crazies why would the FBI push David on the rest of us to the limit did they want to create an incident did they want us to come out you know crazy and start shooting so that they'd have an excuse to gun is down we didn't know we realize that you have the ability and it's not below you people to do something like their erase all evidences why do you have the press so far back you can give me any kind of crap you want I know you know the reason we're not talking to the press is you people have got to cover your butt from what you did and that's what's going on here and at one point the FBI asked them do they have fire extinguishers and Schneider sends someone to check and comes back with the report that there's only one fire extinguisher in the building the FBI negotiators response is somebody ought to buy some fire insurance the question will we permit a pool camera up close any closer than your we did we went down the road we stopped to the place where you could still see the compound that was not accidental we made sure that you could still see the compound we could have moved you where you don't have any sight we didn't do that the reason we don't want a camera there is they watch television and they watch us approach if we do anything any we're not going to salt the place but anything we do around there to get control that is precisely why you can't have a camera okay in Waco where they're weary of the standoff DJ jr. is giving residents a lift by actually doing what the FBI only joked about one person was recommending we play a key Breaky Heart Container [Music] you see that allegations are flying that all of this may have been avoided two years ago the FBI received complaints about the compound and did not pursue them aggressive it's that matter and others that have caused several near fights pushing and shoving that sort of thing the source says the FBI has isolated ATF we're taking a back seat [Music] everyone in Mount Carmel was free to leave though theologically the situation is complex yes you're free to jump out of Noah's Ark and into the onto the land that's fixing to be flooded but everyone was free to leave some did anyone could have left but geologically is not a good idea you were risking your soul if you left what we saw of those who did come out where they were being sent to jail the adults even elderly women in their 70s were being actually indicted for murder or charges this was merely old if that's what happened when people came out we saw it and heard it on the news I see [Music] dick over the radio there's been a number of people have wanted to come in and be a negotiator between ourselves and you I do believe it would be in the best interest of all if there was a news person in between yourselves and ourselves we don't want to take anybody okay but right now it seems like we're coming to a stalemate you know it we're not getting anywhere would you like to have here when you guys come out who would you like to if I know your boy you've got a lot and you're here is it okay explain to me I'm sorry okay when we come out I'm talking about right now let's get somebody in between us right now to do some negotiating we have a woman who believed in her heart and soul that she can get her grandson to lay down his arms and come out I'm his grandmother and he's my grandson all my grandchildren and good kids because I've taught him well until a pro told him that I was there and I'd like to speak anything to charge and I was a lawyer and I had David Crescent grandmother with with me and I wanted to seem about talking and after a few minutes another one came up to me it was obviously the guy in charge and was very surly declined to give me any information at all so I started to leave and just as I left turn my back and started walking toward my van I heard a voice say coming from one of those people I don't know which one but one of them said I hope she has told him goodbye that was the mentality of the people who were guarding the gates over federal law enforcement authorities and their attitude was we are going to get revenge against David Koresh and if that means we have to eliminate all of them in there that's just fine - that was the attitude that they had on a special life call-in show here this morning listeners had strong opinions on how they think this tragedy should now be handled a majority seem to want law enforcement to end it all quickly good morning legal 100 I thought so go in and just take him out and I think they ought to go and had to get it over with because I think it's costing us a lot what could have been done to get the Davidians out of that compound without bloodshed we were on the way to doing that on April the 14th there was a major breakthrough and that breakthrough was David Koresh's letter to me which I promptly gave to the FBI that said that he'd received his mission that he was working on writing his interpretation of the seven seals and that everyone inside was relieved that they didn't have to die now that the prophecies were not being fulfilled now and that this would be resolved people don't understand how important that was David Koresh and his people believe that God's message for our generation could not be written and should not be written and David Koresh had never before written down his ideas he believed that he had received a message from God saying now David right before I told you not to now I'm telling you you can he waited 51 days and then he said the word came to him and said right and he wrote this was brought out would they have the fire but one of the survivors he was keeping his promise of April 14th we believe they would have all come out safely this this was pulled out of the fire the tapes were and then then this this then was written up as evidence that he was working on that message on the seventh field all they had to do was say we've got a death we're gonna be sending it out when the FBI advised me of their plan and the possibility of the insertion of gas I did notify the White House Counsel and that kept in contact through the White House Council I am sure the White House Counsel advised the president but we're missing some of your telephone logs particularly April 17th 18th and 19th and our problem is is that they've all been redacted and is there any chance that we could get those I can't be helpful nobody's ever asked me but I have a copy of these same logs and you're welcome to them as far as I'm concerned except I have to tell you the 17th and 18th were Saturday and Sunday and so therefore there wouldn't be any these are basically logs of people who called and left a message for me to call them back not not necessarily everybody I talk is what I was faced with was a situation where the negotiators said we think we have reached an impasse nobody else is coming out voluntarily we looked at the entire situation and we made the best judgment we could I am very satisfied that in the information for any to me by the FBI I was informed do you know if Attorney General Reno was ever advised that there was this new development before she made her decision I don't know because I doubt it because it was not from our understanding of it and the judgment was looking at what they were doing maybe that she was not I don't know but it wasn't any reason to because it was not a serious plan it was just another delaying tactic the FBI testified before the House hearings that their negotiations had reached them impasse they told the Attorney General they weren't coming out and that there was a stalling tactic and they weren't working on the seven seals their own negotiators had reached an agreement knowing that the first seal was finished and in order to get proof of it had sent in typewriter ribbons so that they could get that proof in their hands and yet the very next morning they launched the gas and tank attack [Music] [Music] the guest supplies a number of irritants to the nostrils to the eyes to the skin just touching to the skin can be extremely painful you can have certain symptoms of nausea you can have certain symptoms of inflammation with regard to membranes so it is extremely uncomfortable boot camp trainer briefly exposed to a mild amount of cs for a few seconds the Davidians received more than 10 times that dosage for more than six hours CS isn't a gas it's a chemical powder at Waco the CS powder was dissolved in methylene chloride a volatile chemical used for stripping paint together they formed an aerosol mist when sprayed through huge steel injectors fitted onto the tanks enclosed spaces CS alone can cause unconsciousness and death and can be ignited by a spark into a fireball when CS burns it produces hydrogen cyanide the same gas used in prison gas chambers did you tell the Attorney General that infants would not die or be harmed I told her there is no increased sensitivity to the effects of CAS on infants young adults and older people I believe that using CS gas against infants against old people with respiratory problems there was there a 67 year old men in there and there are young children that's torture and I can just see those kids barfing vomiting screaming because you can't possibly have a gas master to fit a little kid their reports say that gas masks don't fit on these babies that's correct and didn't they know that they should have known that they explained to me that they were pouring fuel and that they were making Molotov cocktails to throw it to tanks now they never did throw Molotov cocktails at the tanks the conversation about that takes place in the early morning hours six or seven o'clock in the morning the fire didn't start until right around noon [Music] shortly after they started they began also not only spraying it from the Seavey's off of the booms but they started firing ferret rounds on the excuse of course we learned later that we were supposed to be firing at it what did you feel what were your emotions well we definitely weren't believing what we were hearing over the loudspeakers that they were not entering the building or this was not an attack you know we were told they weren't going to be shooting and yet they're firing what amounted to mortars or rockets at us these ferret rounds which sounded like a pummel water we used to you afraid yes experts say the ferrets or barricade penetrating cartridges that were used are non pyrotechnic or non incendiary they introduced CS gas in a vapour form as the tip disintegrates but experts also say the ferrets pack enough force to kill someone with a direct hit fifty ferret boxes found on the compound grounds warned against firing the rounds at people despite that warning agents fired ferrets into every window of the compound and according to the review any movement inside was targeted with respect to the use of military weapons these these pieces of equipment were unarmed as I understand it and were contracted I mean it was like a good rent-a-car who they were a good rent-a-car a tank going into a building [Applause] at nine o'clock Attorney General Reno left the command center at FBI headquarters to give a speech in nearby Baltimore from then on Waco decisions were made by top officials of the FBI and the Clinton administration four minutes into the raid it escalates we with the the 48-hour plan according to testimony is gone we're now going to do a massive insertion of gas into every window did you consider staying in Washington DC given that escalation four minutes into the plan during the course of the morning the question arose whether I should cancel the speech and the FBI did not want me to do so because they thought it would attract attention if I suddenly canceled a speech it looked like there would be an emergency one of the most inadequate parts of the Justice Department's report is their failure to describe the decision-making process at the command post I think that is unpardonable there is nothing in the investigation of what was going on in the Washington command where they had a Situation Room which was supposedly constantly in touch with Waco what would the communications have been on what were the decisions made and that we have never heard dozens and dozens of rounds have been fired at FBI agents the FBI in an effort to demonstrate its extraordinary restraint has not returned fire thus far [Music] almost two miles above Mount Carmel a surveillance plane was photographing events on the ground with a forward-looking infrared camera commonly called by its acronym FLIR Edward Allard helped develop the FLIR he's a former manager of the Defense Department's night-vision laboratory and holds several patents on FLIR and night vision technology Allard explains what happens as a tank approaches the rear of Mount Carmel around 11:16 a.m. that's the side the news cameras couldn't see thermal imagery is not the same as black and white imagery even though we're going to see images that look like it's a black and white television camera said it's not this type of imagery is the same type of imagery that we used by armed forces in their Desert Storm the bright spots in this particular this particular film are spots that are hot the graceful gray area of warm will say and the black areas are cool they're relatively cool they're still pretty warm for a Texas midday but they are a lot cooler than the rest of the surrounding area if you look carefully what you will see is the exhaust plume of the tank you'll see the plume twice when the operator steps on the gas there it is again and now what you will see is a shark burst there that short burst we we feel is a gunshot the next view is a view in slow motion as the vehicle approaches we see the plume from the engine and we have the gunshot now freeze it there please you can see now the outline of the thing you can clearly see the outline of the tank there's the blade there's the blade in front of the tank there's the the opposite side of the tank this hot area back here is the the engine the DECA area and it appears that the the shot that we're looking at is coming off the rear deck area of the tank this particular one Burris lasted about one second and we will see shots similar to this throughout the tape and nothing else appears with the type of thermal signature that we get of gunshots did the FBI fire one shot even one shot at the pedestrian not throughout the entire stand up stand up [Music] what we're going to see here is a what could be called an infantry tank maneuver we notice the tank there's the tank smashing into the building and we'll also see gunfire multiple gunfire on the outside of the tank to the rear of the tank right now we're seeing a close-up move of exactly the same thing the important thing to notice is the gun fire multiple rounds being fired from at least in different positions and it's about ten bursts and approximately two to three seconds and according to our calculations it indicates that both positions of firing automatic weapons there is nothing in nature that would duplicate these type of thermal signatures primarily because of the short duration of the the bursts themselves I think the nature could do that and I'll remind the American people one more time that during that entire time those six hours and indeed those 51 days the FBI never fired one shot at the Davidians what we're going to see now is rapid fire in the courtyard right behind the dining-room area and you can see the the fire going on but it's difficult to see in real-time now the slow motion shows things much more clearly [Music] there are two positions we look at the feet carefully there are two positions and apparently by the signature itself of the the first apparently is going from this area here into the dining room area [Music] what Allard saw was verified in an independent FLIR analysis done by infra speck Institute for CBS 60 minutes quote it was obvious to me on several occasions that there was gunfire or automatic weapons discharged seemingly fired toward the building from the outer perimeter and quote a second letter from in perspective Institute states the fear that kept sixty minutes from informing the American people quote due to the potentially sensitive nature of this material and the resulting negative repercussions to in perspective we are choosing to decline any further comments surrounding this taped incident and our subsequent professional opinion regarding its viewing end quote in addition to noticing the gunfire in perspex oz something else quote there were occasions on the video that seemed to appear as though people were entering exiting or being run over by an armored vehicle and quote the whole idea here was not to hurt people right betters correct okay I want to focus on that building right there and on that corner you see it's now structurally sound we do go to the next photo we're now looking kind of from the front corner these are taken from the airplanes you will see that where he is pointing that section of the building is gone indeed a great portion of the building is gone there was a discussion that there may come a point in this where we would try to poke holes in the building my understood that yes sir this I don't see as a whole no I understand that yes and I do not believe that there were any any bodies found in that area the closest bodies were found a little further in each one of those five bodies it's reported had extensive the corner of the autopsy report extensive body mutilation Davidian Stephen Henry had a gunshot wound through his chest his leg was sheared off at the hip [Music] James riddle had been shot to but a large circular portion of the right side of his chest had also been ripped out of his body [Music] riddles redshirt was dangling from his wrist [Music] his nearby coat at a red lining this gunfire occurred at 11:24 a.m. about 10 minutes later something got jammed near the tanks front wheel that caused the tread to come off something that was mostly red the available evidence indicates that could be James riddles body [Music] to attach the disabled tag to a retriever and tow it away men had to expose themselves to the gunfire FBI officials said was coming from the Davidians this is one of these things mr. chairman that nags actually damage to the tanks common sense tells me would be reflected in the in the damage report almost two months ago we requested it over two years have been elapsed since this occurred surely the damage report had been compiled I realize the wheels of bureaucracy turn awfully slowly in this town but after two years I'll be glad to look into it and see see what we can produce [Music] [Music] as the gassing continued the women and children went to the safest place left inside Mount Carmel the kitchen storage room a first floor steel reinforced concrete room a former vault at the bottom of the square wooden Tower women children ended up going in there and because they didn't have gas masks and stuff they were covering themselves with wet blankets and wet towels and things like that we knew that that cot that protection was in there we believe we finally were able to make entering that compound and were able to insert gas inside that protective area he actually drove right through the middle of the building into the kitchen area basically at point-blank range fired gas into the concrete room where the women and children work in a cul-de-sac like that where there was no ventilation they must have been gone through front yeah yeah there's no windows no no back door or anything we put massive gas in there their gas masks by that time had to be had to be failing they would be coughing choking they would probably be unconscious some of that would probably be dead some would be basically inert they may still be alive they may still be breathing but they're not going to be doing anything in planning very large actions of this sort like the going in at the building you do a lot of planning like if this happens then this will do this and if this happens it will do this correct yes sir now didn't you consider or did you consider that fire might well occur in this instance and if it does we do this yes sir we did by noon Mount Carmel was a tinderbox a heavy layer of dried CS dust coated everything inside large amounts of kerosene and Coleman fuel from containers crushed by armored vehicles saturated the floor vapors from methylene chloride kerosene and Coleman gas fill the air huge holes ripped open by the tanks let the 25 mile per hour Waco wind blow completely through about Carmen [Music] when the governmental agency made a decision to breach holes into the building they set up a configuration of a pot-bellied stove you wanted to burn slow you closed off the vents if you wanted to burn fast you open it up well they made a configuration in that building that was consistent to a pot-bellied stove any type of fire that would start even if there was no CS gas if there was no flammable liquids there's nothing just but ordinary combustible materials once you have a fire incipient in the building like that it's going to grow to a fast rapid propagation because of the venting [Music] at this front corner a combat engineering vehicle has just made its last injection of CS that small black dot is the nozzle tip ice-cold from the carbon dioxide propellant used to force the methylene chloride CS mixture into the building less than a minute later the first of three separate fires that started in three separate locations within a three minute period began here on the second floor while the fresh mixture is at its most volatile as a fine mist once ignited both the CSM and methylene chloride will become involved with the fire and add to the fire those sources well tend to produce a fireball or a flash fire to Branch Davidian survivors say they saw fireballs shortly after fresh CS was injected at this corner the FLIR shows a second tank that's pulling away as the corner comes into view a fire is burning there [Music] David Thibodeau said he was here and saw a fireball that ran the front length of Mount Carmel possibly igniting another fire here the kitchen dining room area right next to the concrete room where the women and children had been gassed earlier about a minute after the front fireball tibideaux saw another armored vehicle drives up to the rear of the crushed gymnasium and also pulls away a few seconds later survivor derrick Lovelock says a fireball raced from the rear about carmel to the front igniting everything in its path at this point the back of the gym was thoroughly destroyed and it greatly disturbed me at that point I'd lost all hope at 12 o'clock someone yelled from the upstairs that there was a fire the front I could not get to the front because of what the tanks had come in the stairwell that I that was closest to the front so I went to the stairwell in the back because I'm thinking the kids thinking serenity see Jones I was thinking of Isaiah and Joseph some of these kids that I've come to know and love to get up there there was a catwalk that was leading over the rafters of the church area I walked to the front I got to a blanket I opened the blanket up and a wall of flame shoots down the hallway in front of my face down to the other end of the building it was the loudest sound I've ever heard in my life I'm a drummer and it was very it was incredibly loud I could not hear anything else other than this flame well do you know personally how the fire started no the place is beginning to feel a black smoke and you mean Scott was stood there by the stairs and there was this kind of a ball of fire yeah the tremendous heat which caused us to jump back out of the way came from across he came if he came from the gym area across this way it's believed the fireball derrick Lovelock said he saw started here with his flash that flash was so bright that the operator of the FLIR thought it was so significant that he decided to fix his cursor in that area to remind him or other people looking at the tape that there was a very significant flash in the window when we see it in slow motion and we see the flash it appears to be a single flash but it is not a single flash it's actually a two flashes we got a primary flash in the secondary flash and both of these flashes lasts about 1/2 second each and there they're most likely detonations inside the building itself now if someone you just saw this flash here that is a momentary event in my opinion that's a reflection due to sunlight reflecting off some object in that debris sunlight reflections would show up as a flash on regular film which records light but reflections don't generate enough heat say specialists like Gaillard to create a flash on infrared introspection analysts notice the same flash quote a portion of the video showed a flash or pyrotechnic explosion in one portion of one of the buildings and quote the FBI made it clear from the beginning it used nothing that could have started a fire non pyrotechnic delivery systems were utilized to insert CS gas pyrotechnic devices actually burnt and as they do tear gas is dispersed this pyrotechnic projectile is one of two found in the rubble of Mount Carmel it's a 40 millimeter military device that's fired from a handheld grenade launcher this one was found here near the corner of Mount Carmel where the first fire started the other was found here in the kitchen dining room area [Music] 20 seconds after the to gymnasium flashes still more automatic gunfire can be seen coming from the field to the left of the demolition tank we counted the number of gun flashes and in this particular case we got six flashes in one second which indicates it's a rapid-fire weapon sometime and we also can see from the tapes that the fire is going in this direction towards the gymnasium where we saw the flash in the window [Music] [Music] you [Music] is when the fireman fire did start and the fire trucks did arrive I didn't let them in I held him at the checkpoint because I didn't want the fireman to drive into gunfire I just wasn't going to permit it and it was a it's a terrible thing a very terrible decision to have to make but I didn't it didn't hesitate wasn't that it took me that two seconds to make it but did we held the fire trucks so that was our fire planet most of the remaining davidians were concentrated here in the kitchen dining room area it was their only way out except for one thing two men outside were firing machine guns at them [Music] in the 51 days the FBI was involved they did not fire a single shot first that would mean quite certainly that 27 of the people who died in the compound I think the autopsy report showed 27 I may be off by one or two who died of bullets those were self-inflicted or inflicted by other members within the compound [Music] these are embers that are flying off the building but you can see up in here that this is rapid gunfire when we analyze the fate we found out that this there's two people there in this area here and they're firing for about thirty seconds in this area right here where we have the burning dining-room area and it's almost continuous gunfire and towards the end of the the this particular section we find out that the the people doing the shooting are actually retreating away from the fire and shooting as they're retreating the machine-gunning of the Davidians trapped in the burning kitchen dining room was not only visible to congressional investigators it was even visible to home viewers so is the gunfire behind the tank smashing into the rear of the gymnasium neither was mentioned despite the fact the FLIR tape shown to the Joint Committee had far better clarity than the copy used in this film [Music] they came a point in my rolling on the floor and trying to protect himself from the heat and being in the pitch-black not able to see that the voices of those behind me screaming kinda got through to me [Music] I recognized could identify the voices and kind of galvanized me to just leap to my feet and jump what we'll dive headfirst in the general direction of where I figured the hole was when I stood up the skin was rolling off my hands my coat was all melted on my back and smoking yeah I looked back over my shoulder and the whole life just come out with a mass of flames and the first thought that came to me was I'm the only one [Music] now with that late devonian coming out thank you fired was just going on and on we realize nobody came out thinking maybe my husband didn't get up and my children got out the horrible horrible way to die I don't I try not to think about it because I keep thinking at some point they felt all that heat I kept thinking the people in the square they were the ones who maybe they dig probably killed cooked to death I think it was to be this tragedy to show what kind of people we have as a government as soon as the Branch Davidian star David flag had fluttered to the ground they ran the ATF flag up on that flagpole as a symbol of a military conquest because the whole world saw this is symbol that the battle was over I love this country I love the flag I love saying the Pledge of Allegiance I still cry at the national anthem I hope not only law enforcement but I hope everyone does that the FBI is not as we've been labeled for the past two years anti religious rights or anti personal rights we have plenty of freedoms in this country which I love we have the freedom to stockpile weapons I know I'm a Christian I like practicing my Christian beliefs I know I'm going to heaven when I die with my kids I teach in charge of the nursery used to do Sunday school youth group leader if someone tries to stop me from doing that obviously I'm going to be upset but that does not give me the right to go kill someone go to my house using my children as shields and say I'm not coming out I've broken the law I'm not coming out until God tells me to that is wrong the hearings have been on for nine days or so and I'm gonna say this as nicely as I can because some couple people said what can we learn from this in nine days I can't learn to be a legislator in nine days y'all can't learn to be law enforcement officers Byron Floyd Clark Jeff Jamar dick Rogers like him or not or like what we do for a living or not they've been law enforcement officers some of them longer than I've been alive and with that comes a lot of experience what I'm saying is you have to trust the people in charge at the time I'm low on the food chain so I'm not and in by what they did because I I do what I'm told as long as it's legal and moral my god torturing babies and saying it's part of their job and saying it's okay because their parents were bad our whole society is structured around the notion that if parents are bad we protect the children even against the parents in this case the FBI and the government took the position why not only with him do we not protect the children we use it as an instrument to try to get their parents to do some will torture them so their parents we'll do right Oh God where did they think that up we thought that their instincts the motherly instincts would would take place and that they would want their children out of that environment it appears they don't care that much about their children which is unfortunate the backward vote corpse of this eight-year-old girl shows what cyanide does to the human body it makes the muscles contract so violently that they can actually break bones if one reviews the various use of cyanide and is a method of putting prisoners to death note that these people are strapped in their chairs very heavily and that's not to prevent them from escaping the gas ask to prevent the individuals watching the execution observing the effects of cyanide has on the muscles of individual [Music] it's part of the evidence response team I was one of the primary photographers that had to photograph the evidence before it was recovered and as it was being recovered and placed into the appropriate banks I photographed the process David Koresh's living quarters and I also photographed all of the bodies from what has termed the bunker having been in the position to walk touch feel hold photograph observe a great majority of the bodies in Waco I'm left with an overall disturbing out of haunting opinion that many of the people in the residence were homicide victims one of the FBI officials tell doctor pavani that they did not want us there because they want to do it themselves the FBI lab was extremely in a hurry to get the evidence from us and they took us several weeks to go through literally thousands of rounds and all the bullets bullet cartridges fragments of grenades they were all turned over to the FBI lab no independent examination of any of that evidence has been allowed including the illegal firearms the FBI says were found in the rubble is that a weapon illegal that you found at the compound make a 47 type rifle that has been converted to permit full automatic making in Italy yes sir thank you I was panning the whole site and one of the Rangers came up behind me while I was still taping and hit me on the shoulder and said you can't be doing that and so I said okay that's fine no problem and then he asked for the tape and I said well I'm shooting for dr. Kewanee and I'm not gonna give you the tape until he says it's okay finally we found dr. Pierre wanna talk to him and he agreed that it was okay for me to give them the tape so I did they promised us that all they want to do is review it and they would give it back to us the next day and they didn't they told us that they had misplaced it at one time they told us that I have it in my briefcase and I'll give it to you in fact we said that we're gonna delay giving the reports until you give and take back and of course they said sure would give it a day back next time we come to your office we in fact suggested we would go to Waco and collect the tape from them and they said no it's San Antonio office and and it won at a certain point along this discussion they finally said the tape is lost we can't give it to you at this point is there any doubt in your mind or the Justice Department's mind that the fire was set by the cult members I have absolutely no doubt at all that the cult members said it based on all the information that has been furnished to me the survivors that came out their clothes smelled of accelerants they smelled of diesel fuel they smelled of lantern fuel they spelled of lighter fluid and the laboratory later came back and confirmed that they had done it I would like to know why key information as to how some of this contamination occurred was omitted from the reports specifically those survivors who exited the south side of the building they had to walk through an area that was contaminated by fuel from large tanks spilled by the government tank operations the thing that really concerns me is why the building was so totally destroyed afterwards after the fire was was out there was no firefighting whatsoever attempted and in I'm seen and it was a crime scene was totally absolutely destroyed I've seen this happen before did you see the FBI changing the crime scene in any way yes sir though I said earlier and didn't get to finish the answer they were moving the vehicles which destroyed valuable trajectory evidence in the end it turned out it wasn't didn't matter because leave but it didn't seem to be standard operating procedure you don't you don't consider that standard operating procedure certainly not in any crime scene either they don't know we were commissioned early on in this as Deputy United States Marshals to carry a special Commission so that we could prosecute federally anyone that lied to us and we feel real comfortable in captain burns does that we were lied to let me be clear this investigation has not uncovered any evidence of political corruption or influences we have not found any event there was no conspiracy to kill Branch Davidians the record of the Waco incident documents mistakes but the record from Waco does not evidence however is any improper motive or intent on the part of law enforcement David Koresh and the Davidians set fire to themselves and committed suicide the government did not do that that's assertion to me that the median that the government has made a kind of blanket declaration that the Branch Davidians committed quote mass suicide to equate it to a Jonestown Guyana suicide is the most irresponsible statement that can be attributed to anything having to do with the Waco incident and I find that very offending to me offensive to the memory of the Davidians and everyone else involved in this tragedy to wrap it up in a nice clean well it was just a mass suicide end of story because it was far from what the people believed that what happened is that God was going to judge either the world or them if it judged the world they would survive if it judged them they would promptly be in heaven as one of them afterwards said Livingston Fagan who lost a wife in the fire and his mother in the fire he said those of our people who died are highly honored in heaven and so we should not worry about them the thought was that the army of Babylon would kill them as perhaps it ultimately did the way things were supposed to happen in this country is when someone suspected of a crime even if it's child abuse even if it's a capital murder we give them a trial a jury finds them guilty beyond a reasonable doubt before they go to sentencing then a jury or a judge sentences them and an appeals court makes sure the trial couldn't was conducted with due process and then and only then did we kill them we don't kill them first like happened in Waco on April the 19th [Music] you