Original subtitles

Well, if the information I read in the briefings was accurate, now what I do have to say is the information that pertained directly to the reactor was accurate.

What I read did jive with reality in terms of how in terms of how it was made,what we saw, how it operated, the materials, how it turned on, and what was discovered about it.

I'm sorry.

The migraine is really making it hard for me to think here. Sorry.

No, we talked that before. The podcast.

You tell everybody Bob is getting a Migraine.

I know you're very stressed out by this, which is one of the reasons why I appreciate you doing this.

Where was I already?

We were talking, right?

Explained it.

There was some paperwork that indicated that this was from the Zeta Reticuli star system.

Now, how they obtained that, I haven't the slightest idea.

But it wasn't just from the Zeta Reticuli star system.

It was what they called ZR Three.

So it was a third planet in that star system.

So there was no other information about it other than that's supposedly where the craft came from.

Now, is that true? I don't know.

I have no way of verifying that.

But that was printed in the same materials that referenced the reactor.

Now, I looked that stuff up when I went home, and Zeta Reticula is a binary star, two stars that orbit one another.

And it's only visible in the southern hemisphere, and it's about 30 some odd light years away.

So that's literally all the information I have about that.

I don't know how they found out it came from there.

And you also probably have some suspicions that they give you some disinformation, like you were talking about before, if you ever decided to talk about this.

They added a bunch of nonsense to make whatever is factual look ridiculous, right.

Or be able to trace it down, like, hey, this facts came out, and this Lazar guy said it came from Zeta Reticulate, so they knew it was.

When you read Zeta Reticulate, were you like, what in the fuck is this?

Well, reading all of this stuff, it was, what in the fuck is this?

You're like, Why did I sign up for this?

No, to me, this was cool.

This was interesting.

I was just excited to be out in a secure area in the middle of the desert.

I said, this is awesome. How old are you?

At the time, I was in my 20s. Yes.

You're probably totally geeked out.

Oh, yeah, this was great.

I mean, I was excited, so I didn't care.

I'm reading through everything.

So you read through all the Zeta Reticula thing, but then when you see the actual starship with the little American flag sticker on

it, well, that was that later or before?

That was before. So before.

So you see the thing before and you say, oh, this is that before hard? So many years.

Yeah, I can't either way, it doesn't matter.

The days have fused together.

It's so hard to separate what happened in each visit.

Do you remember the thought process when you read that?

It's from Zeta Reticuli? Yeah.

It didn't hit me like a ton of bricks or anything.

It was just like, yeah, okay.

You think it was bullshit? I don't know. Now I don't.

I mean, because when I read it, I hadn't verified anything,

and this was just a bunch of stuff I was reading.

And I thought, maybe after this, they're just going to give me a test and see what I can remember in crazy information.

But like I said, when I finally went in with Barry and had hands on experience with what they were talking about, it got a completely different meaning.

So there's a plate, there's this thing that looks like a half a basketball.

And when it's on, you can't come anywhere near it.

You can't touch it. Right.

What is gravity about that?

The concept of gravity to most people is gravity is bringing something towards it. Right.

Well, I guess you would say it's antigravity.

It's gravity shifted 180 degrees.

It's antigravity.

And did they have any understanding about what could possibly create this effect?

Did they have any areas where they'd like you to look into? No.

Well, they knew there was a fuel source in it, and they were proficient at making it work.

And again, my analogy to something like this is you can drop a motorcycle off in the wagon train days and just leave it with the keys parked outside somebody's place.

Everybody will come around it, and they'll poke and prod, and eventually they'll turn the key, get it to start, and become proficient at riding it. understand what the hell's going on.

Yeah, but they won't be able to

They won't be able to make the

plastic fender, much less anything else.

And I think that's exactly the state we were at.

We played around with the parts long enough before I

got there where they could make the reactor operate, take

the fuel out, and know that it makes it work.

How exactly what was going on in the

reactor remained a mystery at the time.

I think we made some progress on what was going

on inside, but I don't think anybody really knew anything.

They could just watch what was going

on and make note of it.

How long were you there?

I'd say about six months or so.

And what progress was made while you were there?

Well, we came up with a bunch of reasonably

good ideas about how the reactor worked, and one

of them was the square base of it was

essentially like a cyclotron, which is a small particle

accelerator, a circular one particle accelerators.

Linear particle accelerators are just a long tube,

essentially, and they accelerate particles with high voltage

and radio frequencies till they reach high speeds.

But a cyclotron does that in a small circular

area, and there is this very heavy element fuel,

element 115, something that wasn't on our periodic charts

at the time, but it is now.

It is now, yeah.

When did it become on the periodic table?

Now, the way the charts now,

you know, I don't remember.

Do you remember when they 2004, Dermstat, Germany, I

think, is where they first fabricated four atoms.

They lasted 220 milliseconds.

With the atoms, it's nothing. Right.

And then it later was discovered a couple more times.

They could fabricate it.

Then they gave it a place then on

the periodic chart after that, called it muscovium.

So they told you about this stuff in 1982?

Yeah.

Well, we what year was this?

It was 80, 88 and 89 when I was there.

82 is when 82 is when you're los Alamos. I'm sorry.

Yeah.

So 88, 89.

They told you about this stuff?

So this was not like no, they didn't tell me about it.

That's one of the things that this group came up with.

I keep losing my train of thought with this thing.

So this one area, this this element 115 was the fuel?

Yeah, it was the fuel.

The the world will forgive you for having a migraine.

It's really hard to think through.

Can I give me a minute. Give you more.

I just want to say what yeah, definitely.

I was going to say one thing.

For the last 30 years, people have just

been on the attack on Bob, getting to

know him, the personal effects on his life.

It's really hard to understand unless you

meet his family and his wife.

I mean, this is the last thing he

wanted to fucking do, was have to talk.

Yeah, we should explain that.

Jeremy, you and I had this conversation.

I watched your documentary.

We had this conversation, and I said,

I have to talk to him. Yeah.

The document there's been detractors.

There's been a bunch of people.

That called bullshit on many of

the things that you've said.

But over time, many of the things that you talked

about, even in the 80s, have proven to be true.

Things that people said were not

true were proven to be true.

Element 115 was one of them.

Right, right.

Element 115, the fuel they had was stable.

In other words, it didn't decay.

It wasn't emitting radioactivity.

When they synthesized the two or three atoms of the 115,

it did decay, and it was not a stable element.

So they're kind of two different things.

But this is kind of typical.

Elements always have, or pretty much always

have stable isotopes and unstable isotopes.

Like, I think Caesium has like,

30 unstable isotopes to it.

Well, hydrogen, for example.

You're familiar with hydrogen gas.

It's stable, it's not radioactive.

But there's also two other types

of hydrogen, deuterium and tritium.

And deuterium isn't radioactive.

It's another stable isotope of

hydrogen, but tritium is radioactive.

Now, they're all hydrogen, but they

just have different amounts of neutrons.

So it's the same thing with other elements.

And element 115, depending on the amount of neutrons

it has, designates the isotope, but it's 115.

They will continue to take or experiment and try

and make 115 at different isotopes, and I'm sure

eventually they'll come up with a stable version.

But it's the stable version that has

the properties that we're talking about.

So they, somehow or another

had acquired a stable version.

Did they say that the stable

version had come with this craft?

It absolutely came with the graft, yeah.

So at the time, you having a firm knowledge of

the periodic chart and knowing what was real and what

wasn't real, what was your reaction to having this stable

element 115 that wasn't even supposed to exist?

Well, everything was impossible. Right?

I mean, down to the metal.

I did get a chance to look

inside the craft on only one occasion.

And this was important because where the reactor

sat might have been critical to how it

operated, since everything operates without any interconnection, so

the placement of components might be critical.

So they allowed me to go inside and look at it again.

I forgot where the hell I am.

So you're going into this craft, and what

are you thinking when you're inside of it?

What are you seeing?

It's a very ominous feeling because first

of all, everything is one color.

It's like a dark pewter color, and

there are no right angles anywhere.

It's as if somebody took I've said this before somebody

took a model out of and fashioned it out of

wax and then heated it just for a short time.

So everything melted.

Everything looks like it's fused together.

Everything has a radius of

curvature where two items meet.

It's a really weird looking thing, but

there was almost nothing other than a

small foldable hatchway that that looked recognizable.

Everything was was really unworldy depicting

it a way to describe it.

So you you get inside this thing and it's designed

for something that's much smaller than a human being.

Yeah, you can't really stand up till you

get to the very center of it.

And how tall are you?

I'm 510.

And what do you think this was designed for?

I'd say something close to half my height. Wow.

So these little three foot Talish creatures. Yeah.

And the seats were small too.

I mean, obviously it was made for

something small, but there's nothing else.

In there, there's just seats, the

reactor and some of the subcomponents.

There's no control panels.

There's no bathroom.

There's no decorative components or artwork or

anything that you would recognize or trim.

I mean, it's just a very bare bones thing.

You're not seeing any screens.

Well, there are archways around it that

are part of the superstructure, and one

of the archways can become transparent.

When I was in there, there was another group

working on one of the archways, and you could

call that a screen, more or less.

So through that archway, it would maintain the

solidity, the solid, whatever metal it was, but

you could it just became transparent.

Yeah, I saw that happen once or twice before I left.

Did you ask any questions about what the fuck?

No, there's no asking questions. No.

But when you watch something become transparent

and you realize it's still there, but

you could now see through it. Yeah.

I mean, no, that's not that impressive.

We do have some liquid crystal materials

that are like that smart glass.

Yeah, they call it smart glass.

And I don't know if the craft is

made of an advanced metal or a ceramic.

It was cold to the touch, so

I would lean more towards a metal.

You're not allowed to ask questions? No.

They work on the buddy system, so I

can only exchange ideas and talk to Barry.

Now, this really interferes with science because science is

based on free discussion, and ideally, you get a

bunch of guys together, exchange ideas, work on problems,

and that's how things move forward.

But they're so over the top

concerned about security, they split everything

off, and everybody becomes stagnant.

It just destroys any of the progress you can

make, or at least makes it go so slow.

I think they wind up shooting themselves in the foot,

which is probably why they arrived at this bottleneck that

they needed to get this madman with a jet powered

Honda to come in and see what he could do.

I think that was an act of desperation.

I think they wanted someone that thinks out of

the box, and let's just give this guy a

try here, because they might have done this four

more times since up to the point in time

today, assuming they're still working on this thing.

And when you see this craft and you're inside, was

there any indication that there was an area that they

would use to control it, to pilot it?

Was there a pilot seat?

There were three seats.

They sat around.

The reactor was in the dead center

of it, and then equidistant around.

There were three seats, and that's all.

They're not consoles.

They're large rectangular objects also

spaced equidistant around the center.

There's nothing on them. There's no buttons.

There's no lights.

And they control the same color.

Everything is the same color, different shape. Right.

And directly underneath them, there's

three levels in the craft.

The main level is what we're talking about.

Directly under that, those are the gravity amplifiers.

The big rectangular objects underneath them are the gravity

emitters that look like, for lack of a better

word, a trash can hanging on a pipe.

Three of those, and then the top layer.

This is just my personal belief.

I think that has to do with a navigation or

their version of a computer, with some planar panels, sensor

panels around the craft that we would call portholes.

But they're not portholes.

They're just black areas.

And I think that just determines its position in space.

But I physically was in the center section,

and I stuck my torso in the bottom

section and hung upside down so I could

see how the gravity amplifiers were positioned.

What is roughly the size of this thing?

I don't remember from being there, but after all this

stuff was over, I had John Andrews, a guy from

the Testers Model Corporation, and we sat down and tried

to figure out, from what I saw and known sizes

of things, and we came up with 52ft in diameter.

Really small. Yeah.

So I I think that's a fair, reasonable guess.

Now, you said there's nine of them, and you

got a brief glimpse at the other ones.

How are they different?

They looked completely different.

One looked like I called a jello mold, and it looked

like a classic jello mold with the rippled sides to it.

One was a very flat disc, like a straw hat

or something like that, that was sitting up on its

edge, and the thin part of it had looked like

a projectile had been fired through the edge of it.

So I don't know if they were attempting

to see if the metal could be penetrated

or if that's where the thing came from.

Maybe it was shot down, but that was the only one

where I saw there was actual physical damage to it.

And that one was roughly the same size.

They're all they were kind of too

far away to tell and did.

There was several teams that were working on

the propulsion system, so there was different teams

that were working on these different aircrafts.

I could only assume.

Now, when you're sitting in this thing and you're

looking at this otherworldly craft, your goal is to

try to figure out how this thing functions.

Your goal is to try to figure out how this

reactor you would imagine they would give you more time

than just one day to check that out.

Oh, it wasn't one day. Right?

Yeah, Barry was there.

I think Barry was sleeping there.

I'm sure they had.

That isn't weird.

I mean, up at the tone of Pod test range where

they work on stealth fighters, you go, I think, three weeks

on, one week off, and you stay up there too, so

it's not weird to stay up at the test site. Right.

So, yeah, I think he pretty much he acted

like he's been up there for a long time.

Yeah, but he's still there.

Yeah, who knows?

Do you have contact with this guy?

No, I wish I did.

I kind of thought he was going to come out after I did.

And I think I took so much flak and

it's so much shit for what went on.

I think actually I wound up helping

security there and everybody became afraid of

doing or saying anything after that.

So what kind of reports did you have to give?

So you're not making much progress, right?

You're just trying to figure out what

this thing is, and it seems impossible.

Well, we didn't personally make them.

I mean, there was never a

lot of information that we gained.

The guy, you would call him our supervisor.

His name was Dennis Mariani and

kind of a military looking guy.

And he would routinely pop in during the

day and, hey, what's going on, guys?

And he would essentially relay any information,

anything new we came up with.

I mean, he was our go between where we

presented him the information, then he took it to

wherever they were, assembling all the data from everybody.

Now, I assume you're working normal

days, like an eight hour day?

No, it was really weird that I would be

only called in on certain times and certain days.

And they would be weird hours too.

Most of the time was later in the evening.

I mean, I can get a call at 11:00

at night and they'll say it's now 11:00.

By 1145, you need to be at McCarran Terminal and

we'll let you know when we have more information.

But what did you do while you were there?

If you're looking at this object, this reactor, and

you can't figure out what it is or how

it works, other than the fact that it works

on this element that we don't even know about. Sure.

I mean, the thing was what you do with anything.

If you're trying to analyze it, all

you can do is perform tests.

And all we did is try and come up

with every kind of test we possibly could.

It violated a lot of what

we thought was impossible to violate.

I mean, one of the first laws of

thermodynamics I mean, essentially any machine, any device

that operates always makes extra heat.

Nothing works at 100% efficient.

Even the headphones you're wearing, anything that

takes power, some of that power is

going to be converted to heat.

And it's just wasted.

This didn't I mean, we looked at

back then, we had infrared cameras.

They're different today, but back then you had to

pour liquid nitrogen into the camera to cool the

sensor down and get these infrared images you've seen.

But it never got no matter what the

load was on the reactor, it never got

above the ambient temperature, which is impossible.

I mean, you're pulling out huge amounts

of power and nothing ever gets warm.

We tried measuring magnetic fields,

and there was nothing there.

So we started playing around with the emission from the

emitters, the gravity wave itself, and saw what we could

do with it and how it was focused.

So we really spent all our time just trying to see

what the stuff can do and what we can control.

So you were seeing what it could do, but you

couldn't ever figure out how it was doing it?

No, not really.

We really could only use come up with a best guess.

Now, I can't say that I could absolutely state

for certainty or certainty how anything actually worked.

Now, did you know at all how they were piloting it?

Because they were doing some tests where they were

having these things fly around in the sky.

And this is what gets us deeper into your story, right?

I was out there for one test, right?

In fact, I was in with barry in the lab, and

dennis came in and said, we're about to run a test.

Why don't you guys come out?

Or I think he said, barry, why don't you

come out here and bring bob with you?

We went out there, and the craft was already outside

the hangar and was just preparing to lift off.

Now, they were in communication

with somebody in the craft.

So there was a person in the craft?

Yeah, there was certainly a person in there.

Now, it's not a comfortable place to be in

because it's small, so the guy has to be

sitting on the floor in the middle.

My best guess, and this is the same specific craft

that you worked on, because that was the only craft

that you were in, the only one that I touched

and worked on, and it quietly lifted off the ground,

which was incredibly impressive to see.

Quietly or silently?

Well, quietly, because it did.

It produced a little corona discharge from the bottom.

Corona discharge is kind of a high

voltage brush, little bluish glow discharge.

As it was lifting off the ground,

you can hear a slight hiss sound.

Now, as soon as it cleared the ground, by

about five or 10ft, maybe even less than that,

the hissing stopped, and the blue go disappeared.

So it lifted off quietly, and then it

hovered silently, if you want to be specific. Wow.

So then what kind of maneuvers was

it doing for that particular time?

It took off, moved a little around to the

left and right, and then sat back down.

The craft itself, they communicated with it, because I

saw the guy talking in a regular VHF radio

to the person in the craft, and I even

saw the frequency that was on the frequency counter,

the communication, the transceiver there.

But what's weird is he shouldn't be able

to communicate with the craft with a radio.

The radio wave should bend around the craft.

I mean, it it shouldn't be possible.

Every single thing about these the craft and the

way they operated didn't make any sense to us.

I mean, that's something we talked

about for a while after.

Why should the frequency bend around the craft?

Well, you really have to look at the way

the gravity wave comes out of the craft.

The reactor is in the center, and there's a

wave guide that goes up to the top.

There's actually a small appendage that sticks out of

the top of the craft, and it produces a

heart shaped gravitational distortion around the craft.

Now, if the craft is sitting in the

air and you walk underneath it and look

up, you actually cannot see the craft.

The light bends around it. You're bending.

Gravity bends light.

It bends radio waves.

It shouldn't be possible to communicate with

a craft that has an envelope around

it that's distorting all forms of energy.

But they were apparently in contact with it

somehow or another through some unexplained way that

they didn't bother explaining to you.

So this thing gets up.

It just does some very simple maneuvers.

Left, right, left, right, goes down and

did they discuss this with you?

I mean, they said they wanted you to see it.

No, they just wanted no, they

didn't discuss anything with me.

It sat down, we looked around for a bit, and Barry

said, let's go back, and we went back in the lab.

All we got to do was see it.

Fast forward to some months later.

I did have the test flight schedule of the craft.

Now, they had times they

had designated high performance tests.

This obviously wasn't one that

was a high performance test.

The high performance test goes above the mountain range, and

they do much more radical moves with the thing.

Look, this is a prized item, and they're not doing

anything like taking it out of the atmosphere or flying

around to other countries or anything like that.

They just play with this thing

right over the test site.

But they were doing some radical moves with it.

And since I had the test flight schedule,

statistically, the amount of traffic in the surrounding

areas on the highway was lowest on Wednesdays.

And that's why Dennis told us that all the test

flights occurred only on Wednesdays, because it'd be the least

chance that anyone would see what's going on.

And this was before the government had expanded

the forbidden territory around Area 51 and Papus

Lake and all that stuff, right? Yeah.

I think that occurred after my story came out.

Then people started going up on the mountaintops

and trying to look down into there, and

they kind of freaked out and then did

the land grab and pushed everybody back.

But, yeah, I think all that occurred long

after I'm sorry that I came out.

So you're working there, and while you're

working there, you're under this crazy schedule.

Forgive me for explaining your story, but you

would get these phone calls you would have

to go to the airport at 11:00 p.m..

And your wife started thinking that

you were having an affair.

Yeah, apparently so.

Now, I did give my permission to have as part

of the security clearance process, I gave written permission to

have the phones monitored and things of that sort.

So they weren't doing any covert stuff with

any queue clearance, which is civilian top secret

clearance or military top secret clearance.

They go talk to friends and places you've been,

make sure you're not connected to foreign countries, but,

you know, monitoring your phone is nothing unusual.

However, they insisted that, you know, you don't even

talk to your loved one, to your partner, to

your wife, whatever, about what's going on.

So she was essentially in the dark and

didn't know the phone was being monitored.

Well, part of the security clearance is that not

only do you not have any connections to foreign

countries and aren't a maniac, but you have to

have a stable home life, too.

Well, she started having an

affair with a flight instructor.

Now, they were monitoring this on the phone

and they knew it and I didn't.

So they stopped me coming in.

And their attitude at the time was, we need to

see how this is going to play out and if

Lazar is going to get a little weird or anything.

So let's just hold him off from

coming in and see what happens.

And they explain this to you, what was happening?

Well, after the fact, yeah, because time kind of went

on and there were guys that were following me around

and I started getting a little concerned, going, well, chit,

are they booting me out of the project?

And if so, they're not just going to let me hang out

at home and go get a new job knowing what I know.

So as time went on, I started getting

a little concerned and I took my closest

friends and just kind of got together.

I said, hey, remember that job I told you about?

This is what's going on and you don't

need to take my word for it.

Wednesday night, we need to all go out here.

I want to show you what's going on.

So I took everybody and we went out to

remember since I had the test flight schedule, and

went outside the base out into the desert.

And so everybody could see one of the high performance

tests and it left quite an imprint on everybody.

So they knew I wasn't and

there's videos of these tests, right? Yeah.

But remember, this is in the it's in

the dark in the big monster size camcorder

and you got a bright light jumping around.

But yeah, I mean, we did video of

it, but there's no by today's standards.

But is your video specifically available,

the video that you took?

Well, George Knapp has it.

Is it online?

I have no idea. Jeremy?

Yeah, I show clips of it in my film.

It's online, and someone did a deep analysis of it.

It was interesting to take a look at how pull

this microphone up to your face about a fist from

your face to see how his video looks now.

But as far as video evidence, I

mean, we are talking 80s camphors.

The most important thing is the human story here.

Everybody that he took up there on three

separate occasions, they don't all like each other.

They don't all talk.

They all agree on one thing.

They saw something that night at the exact point

in time and space that Bob Lazar said.

And remember, this is 1715, 17 miles south of Air 51.

No one even knew really about Air 51.

We're talking Papus Lake.

And they all agree they saw something that

night they had never seen before and they've

never seen since right when he said it.

So that's one of, like, the six things

where I'm like, how did he know?

You can dismiss him.

I tried to dismiss it, but some things we can't

get around, and there's about five or six of them.

How did he know about those?

If Jamie wants to find that video

right now, what would he look under? Bob Lazar. UFO.

S four Area 51.

Just kind of like that.

So it's like the S four UFO video.

Bob Lazar and a guy does an analysis, but

you're analyzing these 80s videos from the very beginning.

Bob never said, I have proof of my

story and I'm going to tell the world.

He said at the very beginning, I cannot prove my story.

That's not why I'm telling this.

George Knapp convinced him to tell

people, and he lived through it.

And I didn't believe it either

until I talked with George.

Okay, so you filmed this test flight, one

test flight and then you get caught.

Actually, it was, I think, the third time

because we went out there the first time.

Everybody saw it.

Everybody was amazed because it did some

radical maneuvers and everybody had a lot

of maneuvers that I've seen.

I've seen the video.

I don't think there's something we

have now that does that. No.

In terms of, like, a human piloted craft, I don't know.

Obviously what the government no, it's impossible.

Nothing can move like that.

And remember, we didn't start

filming from the very beginning.

We were waiting for something to happen.

The craft took off and then came flying at

us, stopped, turned at a right angle, flew back,

and then after, it did some amazing stuff to

get the camera, and then we started filming.

So it doesn't have all of it on there.

It just has some the way I describe it to

my friends, and they said, what does this look like?

I said, take a laser pointer and then have

a wall and then move it around the wall.

Like, you know how it moves around the wall.

It doesn't seem like it has anything to

do with inertia or physics or it's not

impeded in any way by the atmosphere.

Yeah, that's what it looks like.

You're essentially separated from reality, as crazy as that

sounds, with being in case its own gravitational envelope,

inertia is not going to affect it.

And this is how some of those recent

sightings of Commander David Fraver, I'm sure you've

heard of the Tic TAC, UFO.

I mean, he describes exactly that the thing

operates exactly the way I was describing.

That's why he was interested to talk to me.

But we saw this, and on the way home,

it's like, way we got away with it, we

should try it again the next test flight day.

So this became a thing to do, and I think

it was on the third time that we got caught.

I mean, we started becoming a little careless,

I think we took a motorhome out there.

It was like the stupidest thing

you could possibly start tailgating.

Yeah, it was ridiculous.

Again, you're in your 20s. Yeah.

And what was funny was we went out there and my

friend Gene Huff and I were leaning on the front of

a vehicle, and just for some reason, we just started talking

shit like, well, I hope they realize that.

I don't remember what we were saying, but something

about attacking the base or something along those lines

and stealing the craft or something like that.

And then about 20ft in front of us, we see a

little green light fall on the ground and roll to us.

And unbeknownst to us now, it's pitch black.

You can't see your hand in front of your face.

There were a bunch of guards standing right out there, and

they had a night vision scope where they were, like, from

here to the wall, looking at us, listening to us, and

the guy dropped it, and the scope rolled over to us,

and you could see the green screen.

We turned the lights on, and all these guys are there.

So we did incredibly stupid stuff and

got caught, as we should have.

Because when they catch you and they

bring you in, then what happens?

Well, I went in for debriefing the following day.

I went to Indian Springs Air Force Base, which

is kind of a defunct base that they used

to use at the nuclear test site.

And this is when they brought out the

transcript of the phone call with my wife.

And they sat me down and we said, you

know, when we meant to keep the secret, we

meant, you can't tell your friends, right?

And it's just being sarcastic and trying

to and then they got real serious.

But this is where they took the transcript out and

were reading me what my wife and our friend were

talking about, and it was a hard time.

So what happens from there?

What do they do with you?

Why don't they arrest you.

I'm not sure exactly they knew what to do, but they

did let me go that night, and I went home.

And this is kind of when

the most stressful part started, because

you're realizing that you're being monitored. Yeah.

Now I know, not only am I being

monitored, but now I know I'm in trouble.

And it wasn't a short time after that that I contacted.

At that time, the only investigative reporter I had heard

of in Las Vegas was George Knapp and told him

some of the story because I had no idea what

the hell was going to happen at that point.

So George Knapp tries to dissect your story, tries

to find holes in it, tells it, puts it

online, and makes everybody aware of it.

And that's how I found out about it. Yeah.

To make a long story short, what happens yeah, to really

make a long story short, what happens from there on?

I mean, do they contact you and say, hey, Bob,

it's probably a good idea if you shut up?

Did they try to label you as crazy?

Was there boy, there were a lot

of things that happened between that point.

I'm leaving out a lot of stuff to fill in the story.

We'd have to go back to Los Alamos.

Well, I really don't want to talk about that.

The top secret weapons stuff that you were working on?

No, I'm talking about the 115.

Well, I don't know.

I have to think about how I

what is the problem with this?

I don't want to get myself into more trouble by admitting

something, so I just have to dance around a couple.

He was rated just during the filming of the movie.

People thought the movie is great, by the way.

Thanks, John.

And it's on Netflix right now if

anybody wants to check it out.

And if you're one of those people like me

who I've always loved the idea of UFOs.

I became extremely weary talking to people who are

UFO believers and UFO fanatics because there's so many

of them that are full of shit.

And not just full of shit, they're childishly

delirious, like the way they talk about things.

I mean, there's so many people

that are that I'm in contact.

They reach me in the night and they explain to

me what we're doing to the ocean is wrong.

Okay, this is one of the reasons

I didn't want to do the show.

I'm sure it's no joke.

We've had people literally camp out on our front lawn.

And in some ways, I can relate to some of these people.

Maybe some of them did really have

some kind of experience or saw something,

and all their friends think they're crazy.

But hey, now there's this guy I heard on the

radio, and at least he knows I'm not full of

shit, so I got to talk to him.

And so most of the correspondence I get are

people trying to get a hold of me going,

Bob, you got to listen to me.

I'm coming to talk to you.

I'm driving from Oklahoma or whatever, but

some of them are just fucking bad

shit, crazy and they're frightening.

There's a lot of schizophrenics that

are involved in the conspiracy world.

There's a lot of people that have real issues.

Joe, it would be a disservice to your

audience to not say that we have to

look at what's going on now and understand.

I've heard on your show a bunch of stuff

about what's going on now and to not really

understand what's going on now, you can't see Bob's

story in the correct light after 30 years.

And at some point we should just touch

upon that, the biggest being that things like

the Tic TAC UFO case that came out.

I've heard people even on the show say,

oh, there's a glitch in the radar.

That's a data poor perspective.

You just don't know yet what's really going on.

Commander Fraver, I was able to get the interview with

him, to talk with him way before it became public.

I got that from him. He saw it.

Other pilots saw it.

This is a big thing that's going on right now.

They had more sightings on the East Coast recently.

Cubes with spherical ores.

These are not aerodynamic, and these are the

people we trust to defend us on 911.

Commander favorite protected Los Angeles on 911.

So we trust them, but they're not trained observers.

Radar individuals see these things.

And the big one just to throw down so

we can consider a story a little differently.

There's more depth to it.

The big one is the United States

government has admitted that they have been

continuously studying the UFO phenomenon.

That program was called ATIP.

Advanced was called OSSAP.

That's the mother program.

George Knapp got that out.

They announced to The New York

Times about ATIP But OSSAP.

These acronyms OSSAP.

Advanced aerospace, weapons

systems, applications, program. Who cares?

That was the mother program.

So they've admitted, we didn't stop studying

UFOs in 1969 with Project Blue Book.

We don't think it's crazy.

We actually want to reverse engineer the technology.

That's why on your other show

you said, what's this AAV thing?

It's like they're making up another UFO name.

Well, hold on. There's a reason.

Because in the documents, the Dia documents that

George Knapp released that everybody said was fake

till now they know is real, they call

them AAVs, which is Advanced Aerospace Vehicles.

People are getting the acronyms wrong.

So the reason for the terminology change is so that

we can mimic what we're reading in the Dia documents.

People can look for that now.

So they changed the names to get people away from UFO

or UAP, even, like Hillary Clinton said on air, right?

What are you talking about, hillary Clinton?

Hillary Clinton informed the public on Jimmy Kimmel.

Oh, Jimmy.

We don't call them UFOs anymore.

We call them UAPs.

Unidentified Aerial phenomenon. Right.

So she kind of was giving the

Clintons are very into the UFO topic.

Senator Reid, he's done a lot for

the subject, the study of it. Right.

So she informed the public so they

could look for the right term.

So these terms are important because the dia in

those documents, they've been calling them AAVs for quite

some time now, and they changed the name to

anomalous no, that's kind of a misnomer.

They always mess around with

things, but it's actually advanced.

Right, but when they're describing it in the news,

they were calling it anomalous totally space vehicle.

Totally. And that's cool.

They were also saying anomalous aerospace threats AAT.

Right.

Because they want the sense of a threat.

So my point is, if people don't know this now

and they think this stuff is fantasy, this part of

it that we're studying it, that we take it seriously,

we're spending money on it, and that we're getting great

data from visual pilots to radar.

That's why we know it's aerospace.

They dropped from 80,000ft. But guess what?

That's the top scope of the Spy One radar is 80,000ft.

So the radar system they were using,

it was coming from above that.

So my point is this.

If you don't understand that this is happening, you're

just behind the curve because you don't have the

information because of the stigma that you're talking about.

I saw you get totally upset with the UFO topic.

I met you first.

When you get totally upset with

the UFO topic, it's the people.

When you're doing your I'm sorry, man.

When you're doing your show,

the Joe Organ questions everything.

I could see how frustrating is trust

me, I have been frustrated to hell.

Luckily, my mentor is George Knapp, and he's taught

me the pitfalls as I went through it.

My whole point in this rant right here is

just that we have to now look at Bob's

story but knowing the facts, not someone saying it's

a bird, it's a plane, it's a glitch.

They're not and so if you don't know

that, you just don't have the information yet.

Not just that.

Knowing the facts as we know him in 2019, not in 1988.

Absolutely.

So what has he said that has come true?

He's totally unimpressed with it. Right?

What has he said that's come true?

So I was like, Bob, they've

announced gravity as a wave.

You were right, man. You're vindicated.

And he looks at me and he's like, well,

if you think about it, Jeremy, I had like

a 50 50 chance he was not very impressed. Right.

When did they announce gravity as a wave?

So they detected in a

sense, they detected gravity waves.

Who is they?

You might know more.

There's two black holes that were colliding and

that's how they were able to detect yeah.

Somebody built I don't know which group it was or

what part of the government that's what Google's for.

Yeah, but they built a gigantic gravity

wave detector and pretty much detected did

there are such things as gravity waves.

First observation of gravitational waves.

It says it was in 2016. Okay.

The first observation of gravitational waves was made

on 14 September 2015, as announced by the

LIGO and Virgo collaborators on the 11 February

2016 previously, gravitational waves had only been inferred

indirectly via their effect on the timing of

pulsars in binary star systems.

Dun dun dum.

The waveform connected by both LIGO LIGO observatories matched the

predictions of general relativity for a gravitational wave emanating from

the inward I'm trying to get this from the inward

spiral and merger of a pair of black holes around

36 and 29 solar masses and the subsequent ring down

of the single resulting black hole.

Well, yeah, it's no, he was in.

The predominant theory was gravity

is produced by gravitons okay.

Theoretical particles.

But they're not they're waves.

They're not particles.

The thought is that the way we experience gravity,

it's based on mass, which is why the Moon,

which is roughly one quarter the size of the

Earth, has one 6th of the Earth's gravity.

So there's some sort of a computation

you can make based on mass. Right.

And remember, we can observe the effects of gravity,

but we have no idea what it is.

All we can do is observe it, and we can't make it.

The only way you can make gravity is just putting

more mass together, and it's just a product of gravity.

But if you have a machine that makes

gravity, you can pretty much do anything.

You can affect time, you can have force fields,

all that stuff that's, in science fiction becomes reality

if you have a machine that can make gravity.

And what we worked on in the

desert was a machine that makes gravity.

I love your analogy of dropping off a

small nuclear reactor to the Victorian era.

I love that analogy because

back then, that was impossible.

That was magic.

What you're talking about here.

The fact that they just discovered this four

years ago, that this is a wave.

As much as we know and as impressed as

we are, as we should be with how much

more technologically advanced we are than every other creature

on this planet, we're still, in many ways, in

the adolescence of technological innovation. Absolutely.

If even adolescence.

And when you're talking about this binary star system

and Zeta Reticuli and who knows how much longer

these things have been around than us?

Who knows what their evolutionary cycle has been?

Who knows?

We might be talking about something that's

a million years more advanced than us.

Yeah, it could easily be.

Believe it or not, I'm not into UFOs.

I don't follow stories.

Or even after your experiences?

No, I'm fascinated with the technology, and it irks me.

Like, every night I go to sleep

that it was my own doing, essentially.

That prevented me from continuing on in the project.

To be on that cutting edge of

technology is so alluring to me, right?

But by the same token, I don't really care

that there's aliens or where they come from.

I mean, the prize is the technology,

and that's what I'm fascinated by.

So I don't listen to UFO stories and that sort

of thing, but George Knapp, he's the guy that has

the contacts and tries to thread everything together, and what

he recently told me is he found, I don't know,

is either documentation or people that he spoke to.

It's at the existence of this project,

the project that I was on.

It's something that they seem to take

out every eight or ten years.

So that's a very specific memo, and this is the

first time I'll be very clear with people about it.

It's a big topic of conversation right now.

It's called the Wilson memo.

You can look it up.

Admiral Wilson met with a scientist who actually

was featured in one of my films.

Everybody has been debating whether or not this

document of a conversation with a sitting admiral

at the time is a real document.

It's an actual conversation that happened,

and this document is real. Everybody wants to know.

The world is going crazy right now in the UFO world.

I'll tell you straight up right now, I'm in the position to

know, and it is a real document that it is real.

So the conversation you read in

that that conversation was had.

I can't attest to every you're not being very clear.

Sure, please, no problem.

So there was a document that is

circulating right now that is really big.

It's going around everywhere.

People are asking, what is this document?

It's called the Wilson Memo is

how you can find it online.

Or the Wilson leak. There it is. Jimmy's got it.

The Wilson memorandum.

Use of human vulnerability.

No, that's not it.

So Admiral Wilson meets with this scientist, and

they have this discussion, oddly enough, at special

Projects at E, G and G.

And if I remember, the document is from 2001.

I'm telling everybody right now it's real.

And we'll see.

My history is pretty good with, like,

saying if something's real or not, right? So here we go.

The document comes out.

They meet at Eg and G Special Projects in 1989.

They they stumble into a problem.

This happens.

They put the technology away, and then they bring

it back out and see if material science has

caught up and if they can make any progress.

So this document kind of talks about this process.

The big thing I get from it, and

a lot of it's vindicating to Bob.

And one of the things that's vindicating besides the

Eg and G thing is that private industry.

So this guy's an admiral, and he says, I

found out about your SAP, your special access program.

I need to know about it.

And he's going to a private part of

industry, and he is denied access, and he

says, I should be running this program.

And they were able to deny him access.

So I think the takeaway here is, check it out.

I'm telling you that that is an actual correct.

That is a leak.

Now, everything said in that document I

don't know what are you talking about?

What is said in that document specifically?

It's between a scientist and an admiral that are

sitting and they're having a meeting, and they're talking

about the search for the UFO subject, the search

to get special access, program access to all of

these different things like reverse engineering programs.

So in this document, they talk about it.

I believe that this document, that the person that went

was employed by Robert Bigelow, one of the guys that

has a couple of orbiting satellites and all that stuff.

Who's?

The guy owns Skinwalker Ranch. No, he's not.

He was the guy that owned Skinwalker. Okay.

Yeah, he used to own it.

There's a new owner, and I interview him for

my other film, but there's a new owner, and

you'll be hearing a lot more about that soon.

But there's stuff that you'll be hearing about

Skinwalker Ranch soon because there's a new owner.

Anyway, the whole point of this insertion

here is just that that document kind

of validates a lot of this idea.

Bob just said that they make a little progress,

then they can't go anywhere, they tuck it away,

and then they bring it back out ten years

later and start working on it.

What is the limiting factor?

I think Bob should speak on

this, but it's the material science. Yeah.

It's really where physics is, so

I can see them doing that.

I mean, I didn't have any information on that, but

I think what George uncovered is probably accurate, that we

try and do what we can, and once we reach

a roadblock on, we really can't figure it out.

It's just friggin wait, put the thing away, wait

for science to catch up, and a decade later,

let's take the project out again and see.

All right, now where can we go? But there's got to be

someone who remains informed, right? Oh, yeah.

You've got your scientists like you and Barry.

You got your people that you compartmentalize.

You got these people working. Yeah.

There has to be some people that know everything.

You've got security and then someone's going

to be on the outside saying, hey,

we need people to guard this building.

Don't let anybody in for ten years.

I think a lot of that is private industry,

and I think that's how they keep it.

Yeah, I think that's how they literally

because the government is just so leaky.

I think that's kind of what they're doing.

That's what the document kind of proves.

You just articulated that, that it

is in control of private industry.

What private industry?

Some aerospace company, something. I don't know.

Yeah, the Admiral wouldn't name it

in the car in the conversation.

So they still have these

things supposedly, I would guess.

I mean, I don't have any information on have you

ever asked anyone that has any inkling of any idea

of where they got them or how they got them?

No, but something must have been said to me

from Barry, but it was just too long ago.

And I can't quite remember what was said, but

it just left a seed in my mind.

I think at least one of them

was part of an archaeological dig.

So it's old.

At least one of them is old.

I don't know if it was the one I worked on,

but I remember something to do with an archaeological dig.

Whoa.

So that means it's not just old, it's ancient.

That'd be a great Steven Spielberg movie.

Yeah, right?

As all of it would.

Yeah, that tripped me out when he

said that for the first time.

That's a freak out. Right?

There a couple of dudes with some

brushes looking for a Tyrannosaurus rex bone.

They hit metal.

And when did they find it?

That they have nine of them.

Well and how could we have not heard about that?

What about the guys with the brushes?

How could you uncover something like that?

Joe's newspaper at home does.

I mean, they said it on that first day.

Oh, you mean the roswell.

Yeah, I have a cover.

What is this here, Jamie?

This is the document, but I had

to do some digging to find it.

Yes, it's just kind of this is

where they meet at Eg and G.

And this is Admiral Wilson.

And there's a lot more coming out.

Now, I want to be clear.

George didn't put this out.

He didn't leak this out to anybody.

I can tell you how I recorded this conversation.

So this was an employee of at the time, Robert Bigelow.

And this is in 2002. Right. Do you remember when he had

that government contract called OSSAP?

The world all knows about now, and

he had NIDS that studied the ranch. That 22 million.

Everybody is saying it was for

ATIP advanced aerospace threat identification program.

The $22 million was for OSAP.

That was pushed through through Congress.

Three Congressmen. Right.

An astronaut.

It was pushed through.

And that's what that $22 million.

By the way, they spend more money on

Viagra every year than they do studying UFOs.

If it was just this program, which I think is

funny, they made a lot more money from Viagra.

They probably do UFOs.

Well, you never know how it seeds into population.

But anyway, this program this is

what was the mother program.

So it got the 22 million, and

really, it was to study skinwalker ranch.

Oddly enough, that 22 million all

was inspired by the phenomenon.

They were seen at skinwalker ranch because

the scientists, they're seeing vehicles come through

like a space in the sky.

Yeah, we went there.

I went there with Duncan.

We interviewed a bunch of people that seemed

full of shit, but a couple that didn't.

It's very interesting. Totally.

But if you look, I spent a lot of time in the area.

I'm not talking about those stories.

I'm saying there were scientists hired by the

government right through bigelow to study the ranch

because they thought it was important and whatever.

The point is that 22 million was to study that.

Then we have ATIP, which is like an

auxiliary kind of program of military sightings, like

Commander Fravers and that sort of thing.

This document is just one of those things

that has now come forward that through the

Bigelow studies, it was government funded, and then

it was personally funded and then government funded.

It's just one of those things that kind of shakes

you because you got this military guy who can't get

access because of the private industry that's holding these non

terrestrial materials that they can't study it.

So that's the claim right now.

Give it some time.

Let people dig more into this.

It's fascinating, man.

So you are essentially you're kicked out, right?

You're out of this program.

You can't work with these crafts anymore,

and do they give you any threats?

Do they tell you what you have to do from here on out?

Yeah, the way it ended was I told George Knapp all this

stuff, and he said, well, let's just get it on tape.

Should something happen, at least we

have a record of it.

And I don't remember what the impetus was, but at

some point, George wanted to air it, and he said,

you make the call on it, and look, if at

any point you change your mind, we won't air it.

And it came down to the day where George

wants to put it on the 05:00 news.

He said, this is important stuff.

People have to know about it.

And I thought it was too.

I thought it's kind of a crime.

I know you got to keep the technology secret, but

you can't not tell everybody that this stuff is going

on, that we have actual hardware from another civilization.

It's a big fucking deal, probably

the biggest one there ever was.

And George said, today's the day we got to put

it on the news, or something to that effect.

And when it came right down to the time to air it,

I changed my mind, and I said, we're not doing it.

And that's what turned into the famous wrestling match

between me and George trying to get the tape,

but he won because he was a bigger guy.

So you actually physically wrestled?

Well, I think it was more of a pulling match.

I don't think we ever hit the ground.

But he got the tape, he put it in

the player, and boom, 05:00 news was on.

And then I got a call after that,

and they said it was from Dennis.

They said, do you have any idea what

we're going to do to you now?

And he hung up the phone.

That was the last communication I had with him.

And what has happened to you since then?

After that, a lot of people I've known

either were audited by the IRS people, had

anybody I know that had clearances that worked

in secure programs had the clearances pulled.

One of them, one of mine that Jeremy knows.

He's going on camera with me.

Soon he'll tell the story now that

he's out of work up there.

He was working up at the Tonal Pot test range waiting

for his clearance to come through, and they pulled that.

It's like if they can't get the

person that's involved, they just create a

problem for everybody that surrounds them.

And so, I mean, the way it turns out, it

hurt a lot of people's lives that I was connected

to, and that's an effective way of shutting someone up.

Did you feel that by coming forward and

going public, they couldn't just snuff you out?

I mean, that's what I was told.

And George and everybody said that it's

public, no one will touch you.

And I fell for it.

You wish you didn't. Yeah.

Sometimes when it's just overstressed and

people are camping on your lawn.

Yeah, but this is going to

make things worse, doing this.

No, this is going to make things better.

I was trying to tell them, how

is this going to make things better?

Because you're getting a real chance to explain yourself in

a way that's going to make people who not only

work in the government, people that are police officers and

firefighters and first responders and doctors and scientists, they're going

to empathize, empathize and empathize with what it must be

like to be a person like you in your 20s,

who gets thrust into this world unknowingly and confronted with

one of the most, if not the most important, discovery

in the history of human beings.

The big question are we alone?

It's the number one question.

There's two questions, right?

What happens when we die, and are we alone?

Those are the two big questions, right?

And if we're not alone and someone knows we're

not alone, and these some people who know we're

not alone, are these bungling sort of.

Even if they weren't, it's a crime that

they're not telling the rest of us.

But I mean, I don't mean

bungling in terms they're incompetent.

I mean, they can't be competent.

It seems to me, to what you're describing, that

no one can be competent with this technology.

Like the Victorian era scholars analyzing

some sort of a nuclear reactor.

There's no way.

Why do you think beyond that?

Why do you think they're not telling us?

Let's just make an assumption that

this is true right now.

Why do you think that they're not telling

us that our government doesn't tell us.

What's your best?

Well, let me put it into what you do.

If I'm the president, okay, and I get

this information, what do I do with this?

What do I do with this?

There's something that we don't know.

There's something we don't understand.

There's something that came from another world.

We got it tucked away in the mountains, and

I just wanted you guys to know about it.

Hey, sleep tight.

Hey, American Auto is on tonight.

Who do you think is going to win? Yeah.

Who's going to win? America.

One is uncertainty, and the other one is what Bob

and I have talked about a lot, absolutely not knowing

what to tell people because you don't really understand it

yourself, even though you've got what do you say?

You want to run a government.

You want to get people to pay their taxes.

But there's something else. Yeah. What do you say?

So you have these objects fine. With impunity. Right.

And you have something else.

Well, not only that, what can you say?

Like, how much do you really know?

I think it's mainly the technology.

They just want to keep the technology

secret because whoever gets this wins. Dude.

You control the where you literally become invincible.

Once you master the technology, you

cannot penetrate a field like that.

So I imagine I know it's all science

fiction, but science fiction turns into science fact.

If you have real force fields

around aircraft and battleships, you win.

You can force your will upon anybody.

And like I said, there's so much more to this story.

When I was first there, there

were Russian scientists at S Four.

This was early on in the project.

So this was before Operation Paperclip

became public as well, right?

I would imagine.

I don't know what the dates were. When was that?

When did that was that 98, I think. 98? Yeah.

I don't know the dates on it.

Roughly ten years later, operation Paperclip

becomes Freedom of Information Act.

We said about Russia, not Germany.

He said about Russian scientists.

Yeah, but I mean, Russian scientists, a

lot of them came from Germany.

A lot of those rocket scientists that work

with NASA, they all came from Nazi scientists. Got it.

The Russians got some of them. I just know.

And at some point, there was intense cooperation

with Russia, even exchanging some ideas on nuclear

weapons and EMP tests, and some things we

would never have discussed with them.

But at the same time, it was in the late 80s.

They were involved and actually in the

area at S Four with us.

And you got to communicate with

these guys, or you saw them.

No, I knew they were there.

Barry would talk about the commies that were there.

Yeah, the commies.

That was back when they were the commies.

They were real commies.

And at some point, it wasn't our group, but

at some point, there was a big discovery made.

And this did not happen when I was there.

It happened in between my trips to there and

after that, apparently, they decided it was just too

cool to share with anybody, and the Russians were

never allowed back on the base after that.

But you don't know what that discovery was? No.

Like I said, it wasn't my group.

So one of the other groups really found out something.

But in typical American fashion, it

was, all right, this is ours. You guys.

Get the hell out of here.

Was there any inkling that any

other government had something similar?

No, nothing that I had heard.

See, that was the thing that always freaked me

out, was why, if something was so superior to

human beings, it's almost like visiting an ant colony.

Like, why would you go to the queen?

I don't give a fuck who the Queen is. I'm a human.

I'm so superior to you ants.

I don't care who you have running your hive.

I'm just going to study it.

I think it's who got it? Who got it.

Look at the rocket technology in Germany.

But they got nine of them.

Yeah, that doesn't make sense to me either.

So they were either in the same area

or one had clues to where others were.

I mean, I don't know.

You have to fill that in there. But you're right.

I mean, nine of them?

It's a big dig if it was archaeological.

Well, one of the more recent recent sightings

and these discussions that have been coming out

recently from Air Force pilots and Navy pilots,

they've been talking about things happening in the

ocean and that something literally goes into the

water or something maybe below the surface.

Thinking about water.

2004 Tic TAC nimitz case.

So that's when George Knapp and I broke on

the radio twice before the New York Times.

So I know this one really well.

Commander Fraver and those pilots.

There was a disturbance on the surface of the water.

Commander Fraver visually saw what looked

like similar to across some object.

So it's like as if you have some coral

under the water and you've got it's breaking over.

Right.

The Tic TAC is doing this crazy maneuver that defies.

It's a gravity propelled system.

They saw it in the sky before they saw in the water.

Right? Yeah.

So there were radar that was picking these

things coming down from 80,000ft and dropping to

50ft in less than a second.

This is it, Jamie. What is it?

This is actually on the news today.

There was a briefing.

So a lot of people get this confused.

Not this one then, either.

That is called the gimbal.

So there's three videos released by the Pentagon that

are all actual play and keep the volume off. Okay.

I would really just pay attention to the source videos.

So you've got the Tic TAC, which

is this object that Commander Fraver saw.

Another pilot filmed it with a FLIR pod,

and it goes but this one, you see,

is really important to Bob's story.

The Gimbal craft, it's been recently analyzed.

It's FLIR.

Not only does it's definitive that it's not

conventional anything by its movements, but there's a

pocket of cold air around a propulsion source.

So this object, by the way, sat

stationary for days, if not weeks.

It sat stationary? Yeah.

They found it 11 hours later, and they were saying, there's

no way this thing using that kind of energy to go

that fast could just hover the amount of time.

And by the way, you're seeing a very

small part of what happened that day.

This object was not alone.

And so, hopefully, that information comes out and we can

I mean, I wish we had video of it.

I'm sure we'd all want to see it.

But that's called the gimbal.

That was East Coast, right?

2015.

West coast, 2004.

Was the Tic TAC the disturbance on the water?

Commander Fraver believes there was something under

that water that was causing that disturbance.

When the Tic TAC was coming around to doing it

within the people that are studying this, they're thinking maybe

the Tic TAC system was causing the disturbance.

But the USO.

Unidentified Submerged Object that he visually saw the whole

interesting thing about that is I would love Bob

to describe it is why it doesn't matter if

these craft are in space, air, or water.

Why doesn't it matter?

I love when he talks about this shit.

Well, first of all, Commander Fraver was the F

18 pilot off the Nemets that was sent out

to find out what this stuff is.

And it wasn't just I got a

chance to talk to him recently.

And it wasn't just a radar image.

I mean, Commander Fraver had eyes on it for over

five minutes watching this thing, as four other pilots did.

So this wasn't a radar blip or anything.

I mean, these guys were watching this thing.

But one of the things, I think, in the Gimbal video,

the way the craft that we worked on flies is it

doesn't fly like conventional aircraft does, and it doesn't fly like

a flying saucer would or in a 1950s movie.

It flies belly first.

I mean, it may set down

conventionally, but it always rotates.

It does a roll maneuver, puts its belly

towards the target, and then moves away.

Car flying with the wheels forward, right?

I mean, it may land on the wheels, but at

some point when it wants to leave, flips up points

the wheels where it wants to go and takes off.

And the Gimbal video, you can see

the craft do the roll maneuver.

And it's really interesting.

It behaves exactly like the craft

that I worked on so much.

Like, we have different shaped aircraft

and fighter jets and cars.

They probably have different shapes of these

objects that operate under similar principles, right?

But they all have the same. Power source.

They all have the same power source.

And we're also dealing with if you think about

the laws of technological progression, you think of Moore's

Law and you think of how things accelerate.

You've got to think that if this civilization

is who knows how many years more advanced

than we are, if not even years, we're

thinking about in terms of conventional terms. Right.

The way we look at the world, they might

be just superior in terms of their intellect.

They've got to be.

Maybe we don't know. Right.

Well, the only reason I say that is because, look,

everyone doesn't necessarily start at a steam engine and go

to an internal combustion engine and then electric power, nuclear

power and go up the ladder that we can.

If the stuff is true about the origin and

the binary star system and they have heavier elements

that we don't have, and this element stable, element

115 is a naturally occurring material, maybe that's the

first thing they started experimenting with.

And the version of their steam engine, their

first product was something that operated like this.

And actually when they came to Earth to look around or

whatever, they were amazed at the stuff we were doing.

These guys burned stuff and squirted

out the back to go forward. Right.

Who says they follow any kind

of normal progression like that?

My thought was if you went back to

the then you went from 1400 to 1500.

You're not going to see that

much of a difference technologically.

If you go from 2000 to 3000, I assume

there's going to be a radical change, right?

Well, yeah, the delta, the rate of change

is magnificently higher than it used to be. Right.

So if you think about what they had in

1988 and you think about what they probably have

in 2019, just logically seems like they would advance.

I would think.

So the only question is, are they living?

Is that a living thing in

terms of like a biological thing?

Or are they some sort of an artificially created

creation like we are working on right now?

We're in the middle of working on artificial reality.

Artificial beings, sentient

beings, artificial intelligence.

There's silicon based life forms that

they're essentially trying to create.

Boston Dynamic.

Or was it Boston Dynamics at the company? Robots.

Yeah, you can make machines out of flesh. Right.

So cyborg or cybernetic organism is just that.

That's what a lot of people think those like

gray things are that people call the grays is

like they were like they're machines printed from flesh.

So what you're saying is like not

they could just be synthetic life.

They don't even need to be machines?

Well, they seem to have no sex

organs the way they're described by people

that have had interactions with them.

Assuming these people aren't liars

or crazy or whatever. Right.

They have no sex organs and that

they don't seem to have any muscle.

They're just almost like a frame,

and they have enormous heads.

I mean, if you look at Australia Pithecus

or depictions of ancient hominids, and then you

go to human beings, one of the things

you see is bigger heads and weaker bodies.

Well, you see a clear progression of

evolution, too, where something like that.

I would lean towards synthetic organism because it looks

like it was made for a specific task.

There was no reproductive organs.

So, I mean, that almost kind of

leaves out any kind of physical evolution. Right?

Well, that's also our bottleneck, right?

Our bottleneck is our biological imperative.

The need to breed emotions, fear, anxiety, all

these different things that exist in order to

force us into making sure we reproduce.

I mean, that's essentially what it is.

There are human reward systems that aren't necessary once

they can figure out a way to make some

sort of sentient artificial life, some sort of thing

that doesn't have these biological limitations that we have.

By the way, these craft, all these different

kinds have been reported because it was confusing.

I always thought of flying saucers. What?

I heard Bob Lazar talk about flying saucer. Right.

But if you look back in history,

people have always reported the weirdest shapes.

Like, none of them are alike.

There are the saucers, but you got cigar shaped,

you got the top hat shaped, you have orbs. Why?

Maybe they're serving different purposes.

They're doing different things, like

we'd use different tools.

And I want to be clear.

The reason I know that memo is real is

because I spent a lot of time with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.

Six man to walk on the moon, last

guy to film him before he died. Right?

That's how I know.

I don't want any journalists thinking

I got it from anywhere else.

I know because of Dr.

Mitchell, and he said the same thing.

Maybe these things are performing different tasks.

If you think about what an alien is in terms

of the sort of iconic image of an alien, like

the Steven Spielberg closing cows are the third kind alien.

They seem like what we'd assume

a human being would eventually become. Right?

And if these things are tiny, human beings

are smaller than they've ever been before.

They're weaker than they've ever been before.

And there seems to be a trend

in that direction, and this trend seems

to be amplified by our technological progression.

There are a lack of need for muscle strength and

our lack of need for violence, and we're moving in

a society to try to get away from all the

things that we think are abhorrent about human beings and

the terrible behaviors that we have.

If we one day do give birth to some

sort of an artificial being, like Marshall McLuhan's quote,

we are the sex organs of the machine world.

That one day we okay, I'll buy that.

Yeah, McLuhan was brilliant.

And that quote has always been one

of my favorites because okay, what are

we doing when we're constantly technologically innovating?

We're constantly looking for faster cars, better

computers, bigger screens, faster, more resolution, more

pixels, more this, more that, higher bandwidth,

five G, ten G. What are we doing?

We're moving into this.

If you just follow it objectively, stand back.

Don't attach yourself or your civilization, your culture to

it and look at it what it is.

We're moving 100% towards technological innovation.

If you looked at this species from afar and

if you weren't a part of it, you would

say, well, what does this species do?

Oh, they make things. They make things better.

Every year, beehives are the same fucking

thing that you see ten years ago.

You go by, you see a beehive. It's amazing. It's cool.

But they're the same fucking thing.

They figured out how to do it. They make a beehive.

Right? We don't do that.

We make better things.

What would you do constantly?

And at some point, I think that

technology is going to fuse with us. Yes.

And we're going to become it's already happening.

Elon Musk talked about it on

my podcast, that we are cyborgs.

You just carry it in your pocket. It's a phone.

It answers any question you want.

You can talk to it.

It'll give you the answers.

The answers instantaneously.

It navigates you.

It has all your phone numbers in it.

It has all your contacts. You can get a hold of people.

People are listening to you through it.

It's connecting us in ways even

involuntarily Haptics, that kind of thing.

It's also getting on your wrist.

How many people have eye watches?

Apple watches, right?

And that's only because we can't integrate them yet.

But, you know, that point is coming. 100%. Yeah.

I didn't joke about it last night, but

I have a bit about it that I

do about the integration between humans and technology.

What would you do if you

were a hyper intelligence, right?

Would you do the work yourself, or would you create some

cool things called like, humans to do it for you?

Would you create things that are cybernetic organisms to

come in with machines and do it for you?

If you were a hyper intelligence that

has kind of changed, like you've described.

You'd probably create workers, right?

Well, that's a vast conspiracy theory.

I'm not talking about conspiracy, but it

is a kind of a conspiracy.

I'm asking you.

Well, I don't think it's necessarily that.

I mean, you could look at it that way, but that

is the way a conspiracy theorist would look at it.

The way I would look at it is like

there's obviously a progression going on, a biological progression.

There's some sort of an integration with technology.

There's some sort of imperative,

this need for technological innovation.

It's inescapable.

Everyone has it.

And I think it's attached to materialism in some

sort of a strange way, because so many people

work so hard to get new things.

And like, God, that seems so illogical and preposterous and

it makes people unhappy and depression's on the rise, but

nobody seems to be able to stop it. Why is that?

Well, maybe it's because we are the electronic

caterpillars that give birth to the butterfly.

Maybe that's what we're doing.

What our job is to do is to make

some sort of a cocoon, and we don't even

know we're doing it while we're doing it.

Do you think a caterpillar is where like,

hey, caterpillar, what are you doing, man?

I'm doing my thing. It's my job.

I have to make a cocoon.

Then I'm going to come with a butter.

This could be a natural part of evolution.

It could be that we're just

supposed to do this exactly.

And make the jump to some

sort of mechanized right, yeah.

Non biological an orangutan that

is fishing with a spear.

No, they've figured out how to fish with spears.

There's primatologists without somebody showing

them how to fish.

No, they've imitated human beings doing it, and now

they do it, but they do it independently.

They're not trained orangutans they're wild orangutan.

Look at that.

There's a wild orangutan.

That's impressive.

Very impressive.

Well, there's these primatologists, I

guess you would call them. Primatologists.

That's the term that's a great biologist biologists that

believe that monkeys and chimps and some of the

great apes are moving into the Stone Age, that

they've currently entered the Stone Age.

Like they're not staying what they were

100,000 years ago or 500,000 years ago.

But they're actively using tools and they're experimenting

with different ways to use those tools.

And then they're making tools out of stone, they're

making tools out of sticks and they're using them.

Well, this might just be what happens.

This might just be what happens.

Why the fuck are we work so hard?

I was driving to La this morning.

I had a doctor's appointment, so I was

on the 405 at eight in the morning.

But Jesus Christ.

This is so crazy.

When you're in the 405 in La at 08:00

in the morning, you see literally a million cars,

and it's just everywhere you go, it's people.

And also, I'm in a Tesla, so I have it on autopilot.

So I'm there sitting, I'm listening to a podcast.

I barely have my hand on the wheel.

I'm not touching shit.

This car is driving me along.

I'm not even doing anything, I'm just hanging out.

It's so much less stressful, by

the way, to do that way. Right.

So it encourages you to innovate, it

encourages you to embrace this new technology.

I got this giant screen.

It's showing me the navigation in front of me.

Oh, I'll be there five minutes early. Excellent.

And I'm listening to a podcast wirelessly.

It's Bluetooth streaming from my phone.

And I pulled that podcast, which came out today out

of the fucking sky, and I'm listening to it and

I'm all comfortable in my nice little car, just driving

on my way to the doctor's office.

This is irresistible stuff. Yeah.

Different than your walkman back in the day.

Irresistible.

It is irresistible.

It's frighteningly. Irresistible. But is it frightening?

I mean, if you were a monkey, right?

If you were an Australia pithecus, would you go, man, I don't

want to fucking be a person and live in a house.

That's bullshit.

I like just swinging around on trees.

I like running from jaguars.

This is life, guys.

Life is running from crocodiles.

It's not living in a fucking suburban.

No, there's probably some that are like that.

Yeah, I don't think so.

I think when it comes, we're going to embrace it.

We're going to embrace it the same way you

embrace cell phones, the same way you embrace television.

There's going to be a few holdouts.

I don't even have an email address, man.

There's a few and far between the

good luck with that, fuck face. Go. Move to the woods.

Ted Kaczynski.

Yeah, I was just going to

throw Ted ted Kaczynski was right.

This is something that I think about

sometimes when I get really high.

That Ted Kaczynski was a part

of the Harvard LSD Studies.

This has been proven.

Ted Kaczynski, they cooked his fucking

brain when he was at Harvard.

And then when he went over to Berkeley and became

a professor, his goal was to make enough money so

that he could implement this program and live in the

woods and then write his manifesto and start killing people

that were involved in propagating technology.

He was expunged from the Harvard logs, by the way.

This is something my friend just called me about.

So there's, like, this private library, and they used

to print people's names whenever they were part of

a university, and he was one of a handful

of people that were expunged from it.

I want to jump back to the one thing, joe, I

want to be very careful with that word conspiracy theorist.

What I was saying to you

was, we TerraForm our Earth, right? We TerraForm.

We change the environment.

We do all this innovation.

What is stopping us from thinking

that that's not being done? I'm not saying it is.

I'm saying what's stopping us from thinking that that's being

done on a much bigger level, on a cosmic level.

You mean like aliens coming down, doing that to humans?

Well, I'm I'm telling you that there is something here.

That's there's a fact, you know,

there's something there are craft. They're here.

They're not ours. They're here.

So the question is, what is that about?

And I'm just looking at what we

do with what you're describing with technology.

I think it's much more likely that the same

way we observe chimps and we observe that they

are now in the Stone Age, that they're observing

us, and that they're recognizing that there is a

pattern, that there's steps that happen.

I mean, Carl Sagan talked about the different levels

of civilization, and if we don't get past certain

levels, we're never going to reach this.

We're in type one civilization.

We're going to stay type zero.

Well, we're in this warring polluting pillaging.

We're awesome civilizations.

Well, we're awesome in a lot of

ways, but in that way we're not.

Yeah, we're children that have immense power that we

didn't really the other thing is you're using the

immense power that other people have created, right?

I mean, even when you're driving a car

and you're stomping on the gas, like, whoo.

You didn't invent the fucking engine.

You didn't invent tires.

There's all these things that were involved in the creation

of this thing that is really outside of your grasp

of understanding, but yet you have the ability to use

it like a person with a gun.

I'm just going to bang, bang, bang people.

You didn't invent a gun.

So without the intellect to craft and engineer and

manifest these creations, you just have access to them

because you have paper or you have bitcoin or

you have whatever the fuck you're using using a

credit card now, you have almost no responsibility.

You could just flippantly use these things.

Which is why we were very childlike in our

actions, because we haven't had to earn the responsibility.

We haven't had to earn these things

that we've been able to have.

And you've only been able to have them because other

people have innovated and spent ungodly amounts of time and

effort and focus in the lab to create these things.

And then they've all put them together.

And then what's the reason to put them together?

To profit.

Well, what's the reason to profit?

Why are you doing this?

So you can buy more things. What are we doing?

What are we doing?

We're making better things. That's what we do.

That's all.

That's all we do is make better things.

Why the fuck do we need oil? Why do we need oil?

Why can't we just burn wood and stay home?

Why can't we grow chickens and food in the backyard?

Why can't we do it?

Well, we fucking can. We certainly can.

People do do it, but we

decide to make that almost impossible.

Our preferred way of living is to stuff

everyone into a very small area where no

one grows anything other than weed.

This is what La is.

La is 20 million people with hard surfaces.

As many hard surfaces as you can.

Boy, if you got an acre backyard in La. Holy shit.

Look at all that grain. This is amazing.

Well, no, that's the fucking Earth coming

through this weird sort of creation that

we've put on top of the Earth.

But the goal is like New York City.

There's none of it right.

You got Central Park, and they

just got human shit stacked up.

No one's growing anything.

And then constant work.

Everyone's up early.

Go, go.

Innovate progress, make that money so

you can buy more things.

And every year, hey, Apple,

where's this fucking new phone?

As if your phone isn't good enough, your

phone's taking pictures and videos and people are

calling you and you got applications to tell

you which way the wind's blowing. It's not good enough.

A blink of an eye, it's all gone, though.

That like 10,000 years.

And the Hoover Dam goes,

or whatever Mount Rushmore disintegrates.

So it's amazing because we have created that

and everything's trying to spring up through that.

We keep it maintenance down, but we're a blink man.

Something hits.

But we don't think that way.

You think in terms of your own life, right?

You think in terms of what you want and what you need.

Right now, we are, in many ways, this combination

of this weird, primitive, ape like thing with the

ability to calculate and manipulate our world and our

environment that makes us wholly unique.

On top of that, with existential angst and fear.

So what do you do with that?

We fucking water it down with antidepressants.

Give these fucking people some

shit that keeps them moving.

They're worried about the future.

They're trying to figure out what reality is.

You're on a goddamn convertible spaceship, spending

1000 miles an hour hurling through infinity.

There's no meaning to this thing.

Just keep making shit, keep making stuff.

And then one day they're going to be able to

hit that switch and this life will be born out

of innovation and thinking and progress and technology.

And more than likely, it's probably going to be what

we're seeing that these things are that you're observing.

I'm not observing them, but yeah, someone's observing.

Are you implying that they're us?

I don't think they are us, but I think they are.

What happens when things keep going? It's not us.

Just like we're not monkeys, right?

I'm not a chimp.

That'd be cool.

They're from here.

Is your idea?

No, that this is what happens

all over the universe, right? Yeah, totally.

This is what happened.

Look, here's the thing.

I went to see Brian Cox's.

He has this amazing live show with Robin Ins

where they have these Led screens, these huge screens

with high resolution depictions of the cosmos.

And one of the most mind blowing things was he

has this large scale image of the universe and it

shows all the individual galaxies of the universe, and it

just keeps moving through all these galaxies in three dimensions.

And it's fucking incredible.

But what's stunning is the relative uniformity of it.

Even at me, you're obviously looking at an incredibly

small depiction of something that's immensely large, like a

galaxy of hundreds of billions of stars.

You're seeing it as this little dot, but this

little dot that's flying through space surrounded by other

little darts with very similarly spaced distances. Yeah.

Homage.

So, Mike, if we see uniformity in that form, in

terms of the distance between galaxies, so many galaxies.

It's so similar.

They might vary slightly and that slightly might

be hundreds of millions of light years. Right?

But there's so much uniformity.

Why would we not assume that

that uniformity exists pretty much everywhere?

And that all these things that

you're seeing that are so similar.

You do see binary star systems.

You do see single star systems like Star.

But there's also some speculation that Earth and that our

solar system one time was a binary star system. Right?

I mean, that's one of the speculations about that

object that they find outside the Kuiper belt that

the thing is ten times larger than Earth.

They think it might have been at

one point in time, a star.

But this uniformity that you see, why wouldn't we

think that has its same implications biologically, that there's

some sort of a biological uniformity and that this

happens given the right sets of circumstances.

You should tell them some of the stuff that

you've read that you don't know is true.

I mean, if the stuff was

true about the propulsion stuff anyway.

Well, what have you read what you saw too?

What are you talking about?

Spill the beans, Bob.

I got to poke the bear here.

Get some more liquor in you.

Again, the only thing I could verify

was what I had my hands on.

There was talk of weapon systems,

that there were different projects.

Project Galileo, Project Sidekick was supposed to

be weapon applications of the craft.

Project Looking Glass had to do with time,

any effects of time in the craft.

Now, I don't think we're not talking about

making a time machine like in science fiction,

but we're talking about small distortions, intentional distortions

of time and how that can be used.

Well, it was part of a weapon program.

How are you informed in this?

These, again, were just those

small briefings that I read.

But again, I don't really like to talk about

those because I don't have any information on them.

And it was just small briefings.

But you told Commander Fraver that what he saw

might have been a time dilation in that.

Well, it could be because

gravity affects time spacetime.

I'm sure you've heard of that.

And what Commander Fraver saw as he was in the F

18 approaching it, he said he described it as a ping

pong ball in a cup and shaking it back and forth.

It was moving that fast.

Now, obviously, if there's anything inside there,

it's going to be battered to hell.

But my point was that, well, one of two things.

Either there's a gravitational envelope in there

which negates any inertia effects, or you

are seeing through a gravity distortion field.

So just like you're looking at a hot highway

and you see an optical distortion going through there,

well, the same thing happens in gravity.

And the craft may not actually be moving like that.

It may just look like it because you

can only see it through the field, so

it may be making much more gentle moves.

I'm not saying that's it but it

has to be one of the two.

And the thing shows up 60 miles away.

They noticed it on radar 60 seconds after it left commander

Fraver, but it was at his cap point, which is the

next point he was destined to go to, 60 miles away.

And in 60 seconds on radar,

the same object ends up there.

So it's going a mile a second.

No, I think the radar just picked it up in 60 seconds.

Yeah, it could have been there instantly, but

yeah, we don't know the cycles time. Nobody knows.

That's the whole thing.

So it cycles like radar cycles.

It doesn't sweep, but I mean, it's a planar

array, so it just scans around at random places

that's the spy one does the really cool it

doesn't do the whole loop anymore. Right.

The point is, though, that the craft moved

to his next location before he knew where

his next location was going to be.

Jesus, that's well documented.

So that's a pretty shocking piece of information.

What's fascinating to me, too, is that you

were discussing the way this reactor worked and

that these things were not really connected.

No, nothing is connected.

There's no wiring at all.

That freaks me the fuck out.

Charge your iPhone.

Wireless electromagnetic.

Yeah, I know, again, but that's

just simple electromagnetic magnetic induction. Right?

But I mean, tesla, the scientist

had this concept of right.

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

I mean, for other people that don't know what

we're saying, he wanted to send wireless electricity through

the sky, and westinghouse was like, get the fuck

out of here, with that when anybody could just

pull electricity out of the sky meter.

Yeah, they couldn't we had to talk in the

car right over I'm trying to chill him out.

We're talking about tesla and how he couldn't

be metered and how it all went down.

So it's funny you bring it up. Yeah.

Who knows what would have happened in terms of innovation

had he been allowed to go forward with that?

Well, we probably wouldn't have computers, you think?

Yeah, I'm pretty positive.

I mean, forget about microelectronics.

Well, this is dumping huge amounts

of electromagnetic energy in the air.

And yeah, we'd be able to wirelessly turn on

our lights, but there'd be no radio communication.

The interference would be something

we could would be overwhelming.

It would induce electric currents in anything

with a small wire on it.

So integrated circuits, transistors would be disintegrated

before they were even tested for operation.

So it would destroy us up.

Yeah, it would have stopped us dead. It'd be great.

You can turn lighters on and heaters from

all over the place with no wires.

But it would stop modern electronics.

And if we became dependent on it, it would

almost be like our dependence on fossil fuels.

Although it's destructive, it's very difficult for

us to get off the nipple.

It would have changed the course of how we

developed, which is so interesting when you talk about

if a civilization of the star system didn't even

start with fossil fuels, they had 115 naturally on

their planet, and they're like, Cool.

Antigravity is pretty awesome.

Well, the fact that they I think

it's important that that actually happened. Yeah.

It might have been stopped in its tracks for a reason.

Whoa.

I think it's incredibly difficult for us

to imagine technological progression under another timeline

other than the one that we've experienced.

Yeah, that's difficult.

If we imagine what this alien race must have

been like god, just to be able to see

something obviously, we've seen it in different life forms.

Right.

Like, we see the life of certain beetles

in comparison to the life of certain fish.

Very different existence, very different life cycles.

Octopus.

Yeah, octopus.

We see all these different variables in terms of

biological entities on Earth, but we don't see it

in terms of technological innovation, as we're the only

one that's intelligent that can innovate.

We have intelligent creatures, but they're in the ocean.

The only other thing that are like

us are dolphins and orcas and whales.

And they don't have the

ability to manipulate their environment.

And subsequently, because they don't have the ability to manipulate

their environment, we put them in fish tanks, and we're,

like, get in the tank, do some tricks. Right.

The only thing he saw in the craft if we

were considering Bob's story, the only thing that he saw

in the craft that he related to that looked like

a human could make was this honeycomb hatch.

And I always love that because you're, like,

obsessed with this thing that you could recognize.

Yeah, I only focus on that because it was

the one thing that I understood how it worked.

What was it?

And it was the access to the level below.

And it was well, if you take a six pack of beer

and you take out the cardboard dividers, set it on the table,

you can put a lot of pressure on the top, but if

you push it from the sides, it collapses flat.

So it was something like that in a honeycomb shape

that was essentially some sort of sheet metal, and you

could walk on that in the upper layer, but if

you took the corner, stuck your finger in and pushed,

it collapsed and made an entryway.

So I thought that was a really

unique I'd never seen that before.

And it was the only thing in the

craft that made absolute sense to me.

I said, we can make that, and

all that is is a hatchway.

Was there any discussion about the materials

that were used to make the craft?

I'm sure there was, but that was the

metallurgy division had nothing to do with us.

So you never got not.

Even the slightest briefing.

I don't even know if it was metal or it was ceramic.

I think there's a fine line between the two.

Now, one of the things that's happened to you

that has allowed people to discredit you was there's

obviously been some sort of an effort to erase

your past, some sort of an effort to erase

your education history, your employment history at Los Almos.

In fact, the only way your employment history was

proven at Los Almos is someone got a list

of directory of the employees from the past and

read into it, and you were on that list.

So it proved that you worked there even though

people were trying to deny it and they were

trying to use that as a way to discredit

you, that you never did work at Los Alamos.

You weren't really a scientist.

What was that like to experience?

I mean, of course, we're talking about the 1980s, the

1990s, when you could get away with something like that.

Yeah.

Obviously there are a lot less

records on computers at that time.

It was still file cabinets and

folders, but yeah, that was frightening.

That was one of the first things I think

George Knapp was the first one that uncovered that.

I mean, he saw my birth certificate disappear.

It disappeared. Yeah.

There was no record of your being

yeah, there was no record of that.

His mom tells me about that.

Like, it was frightening for her.

He's got a real family, he's a real person.

It's frightening for her.

But the Los Alamos thing really surprised

me and that they were so adamant

that, no, this guy never worked here.

Don't be ridiculous.

And George went back and forth for I

got the letters on the wall months.

I mean, it was ridiculous.

But fortunately, somebody came up with

a 1982 phone book directory.

And also, originally, I told you when I worked there,

I was on the front page of the paper.

So they were still able to archive,

bring that back from the archives.

And Bob Lazar, a physicist working here at Los

Alamo, so there was at least something there.

But somehow George came up with the phone directory, and

then Bob took George with cameras into Los Alamos.

Oh, yeah.

So we flew out there and I said, look, come on in.

I'll show you where I worked.

We'll go in, we'll meet people.

And George went with me, navigate the place. Oh, yeah.

Met people.

Los Alamos was also the place where they had the machine

that was able to read the size of your digits.

No, that was s four. That was s four.

And explain that.

Now, this was back in the this is

back in the 80s where when you discussed

this, people are like, this doesn't even exist.

Yeah, okay, what was it?

It was a way this is before fingerprint scanners

and any high resolution scanner at that time.

So what it was was a device that had a little

picture of a hand on a glass plate with pins in

it so you could jam your hand in there and there

was a bright light above it and a sensor underneath.

And when you put your hand in there, the light

would turn on and it would measure the bones in

your finger because the light shone through your bones.

And apparently the length of the bones in your

fingers are extremely unique and easy to measure.

And they use that.

When you put your hands on there, the light

would turn on and your badge would pop out.

There's it right there. Oh, there it is. That's it.

And I tried to describe this to people and they

said, that is the most ridiculous thing we've ever heard.

And I said, hey, my badge came out of that thing.

I put my hand on it, badge popped out and that's

how I could open the doors and get into S Four.

And everybody discredited that.

They said it was bullshit, it was science fiction.

And Jeremy.

You found this?

I found it through a good

friend of mine named Tyler Rogueway.

And he had some good sources inside of

Area 52 where they also used these for

the stealth program right around that time.

So now I've got all these people that

worked within who said only if you're in

certain programs would we use this technology knowledge.

It was kind of shit, actually.

They didn't keep it for very long beginning of biometrics,

so I was able to reveal it in my film.

I kept my mouth shut until I showed it to

Bob in the movie is the first time he saw

it was how you see it in the documentary.

That's his genuine reaction. I'm getting goosebumps.

That was a great idea, the way you did it.

Thank you, man. Because you know what? Guess what?

I'm actually trying to see if he's telling the truth.

That's how I started. That's how I started.

So it was really cool to see that you get to see it.

His actual reaction.

Has that been verified by other people?

Yeah, so to me it has.

Personally, I get emails every day and people are telling

me where these are used and how they're used.

And semi photos, I got a lot

of photos of identity mats now.

Well, how they were used. Right?

They're not how they were used.

Yeah, but the most recent one was way

more recent than I thought, in another country.

But yeah, that technology was used.

So what's so funny is that this technology, even in the

area 52 where they'd use them for Tonapa, one of the

guys who will go on camera with me, he will do

an interview with me, he was a technician for one of

these and he hated them because they were really bad.

They always broke down and never and

he was a technician for him.

Now he won't tell me where if he worked at Area 52.

So it was probably Tona paw.

It's very separated, even on the base.

But yeah, so there was that

there is your education record.

That was also, like what happened with that?

Well, that disappeared also.

I've never gone anywhere for education.

I never attended any classes at Caltech.

I never attended anything at MIT.

You did attend classes in those places?

I did attend classes in those places.

Do you know anybody that you went to school with?

Yes, I do.

And have they verified that they

went to school with you?

Well, I gave Jeremy some names, but yeah, the reason

I don't say these names publicly is because every single

time I mention a name, somebody gets injured.

You don't want to be of course.

Yeah, of course.

But what is that experience like seeing

your birth certificate erased, seeing your employment?

Well, it's frightening.

It's absolutely frightening.

It's also the fuel that the debunkers

use, the so called air quote, skeptics.

I don't like the term skeptics.

I'm going to say this publicly because

I really only said this privately.

I think it's a sloppy, lazy way to

look at things, to just be a skeptic.

I want people to be objective, and I think there's

a lot of things you should be skeptical of.

I think you should look at things and

look at things from a hardline science perspective.

You should be objective.

But the idea of skeptics, the problem with

that is you're always looking for things to

be bullshit, and I think that's dangerous because

I think some things aren't bullshit.

It's confirmation bias.

On the other end, you're just deciding to take a square

thing and put it in a round hole no matter what.

And I find a lot of them to be

lazy, a lot of them to be lazy thinkers

because they're always putting it into that box.

Instead of going instead of just separating

their ego, they're playing a game, and

the game is calling bullshit.

I want to call bullshit, and I'm going to line

up all these reasons why it's bullshit, and I'm going

to ignore anything that might be contrary to that definition.

Yeah, that does every time I'm thinking

I'm going to catch him in something. All along.

This process I found Dr. Crangle.

He came forward and said, I was in security

briefings with Bob Lazar, the physicist at Los Anamos.

He went on the record with me.

Now, the other people I talked with, why

won't they go on the record with me?

Because they're still working there.

So that's the difference. Right.

What can the public have?

Or even if they're not working there,

they want to live their lives.

Obviously, people have seen what's happened to

you, Mike Bigpin, after 30 years. Yeah.

Really, if you look at all the

information on concerning my accounts, that's verifiable.

It can't possibly be a bullshit story anymore.

It's really way past that point.

That was my Fig pen is I

mean, how could I possibly know?

So Mike Figpen was the guy that did

the security clearances to go to the Bait.

One of the guys that was and this is a

guy that you work with, he said he did. Right.

George didn't believe him.

George put him through four polygraph tests. Right?

He tried to see, man, this is a big risk.

It sounds interesting, but let's see

if he's telling the truth.

One of the things was Bob said

there was a guy named Mike Figpen.

He did security clearances for the base.

And that's a weird name.

It's very specific.

For 30 years, George found this guy in this weird

department that he didn't even know it was Mike Figin.

The guy wouldn't talk to me.

Ghosted him, totally ghost him for 30 years.

Used Facebook and Google image

match through his children.

I was able to find him after 30 years, and

I talked to him three times on the phone.

He lives on the east coast.

He almost went on camera with me.

Confirmed that he did security clearances

for the base in 1989.

Confirmed he remembers Bob Lazar.

And what you don't know is there's a handwritten

note that a friend of yours has from Mike. What?

I know I'm going to give it

to you later, but that is real.

That is actual handwritten note. That says what?

This is new to me.

When they do security clearances, they go through all

your friends and family go to your friends. Yeah.

So this is to Bob.

And I had people come to me for

a friend of mine that's serving, and they're

doing a security clearance for him.

And even though I'm like the UFO guy, they did the

FBI come and visit my house and make sure that they

talk about my friend, and they lift a little card.

And when my wife told him to get away because he

didn't know who they were, they left a little card.

It's super cute.

Now, back then, it was a handwritten note, and

his friend has it for him that you haven't

seen in, oh, my God, two decades.

So if you're listening, how come

you're telling what is this card?

It's just a little handwritten note with Mike Figpin's

signature card, like a postcard, like a piece of

paper that he left on the door saying when

Bob gets back, or whatever it says on it.

So it's just another little funny thing.

I found the guy, he does the security clearances.

He admitted to me he did it, and he

admitted to me he was dodging George Knapp, because

when George said his name on the news, he

dropped his fork into his steak or into his

potatoes or whatever, and he's looking at his wife.

He was in trouble.

His name's never supposed to be out there.

Like, it's just a security clearance guy,

but you don't want national attention associated

with anything Bob has to say.

But anyway, this unique name bob said

for 30 years, and the guy ghosted

George Knapp george could prove he existed.

He actually talked to me, man.

He talked to me three times.

He almost went on camera with me.

It's just crazy what happens after 30 years.

You just get more info.

Well, that's one of the reasons why when you

and me and Jeremy and George Knapp had that

conversation on the phone, I said, I think what

we can do with this podcast is important.

I really do.

I think it's important for people to hear this from

you in a very clear, just very concise way.

And if you examine all the information that you've

said today, if you look at all the things

that the detractors have said, if you look at

all of the new, recent evidence that's coming out

and all these really high level people in the

military and the government that are discussing this.

It gives you far more credibility than you would

have had in the 19 when this came out. Fuck yes.

You can't ignore his story just

because you don't like it anymore.

That's why I thought it was important that you come

out and refresh the world's memory and let people know.

And like I said, I want to say I'm a fan of yours,

but I guess I'm a fan of yours as a human being, I'm

a fan of yours, but I've been following you for decades.

I've been following the story for decades. No kidding.

I have VHS tape, Bob.

Like a lot of the world has.

Yeah, it's crazy.

Well, anybody that has any sort of vested interest

or just even just a fascination with UFOs has

followed your story because there's no one else.

There's no one else that comes for this.

Some guy who said, I

worked underground with the aliens.

They shot my hand off.

Like, there's a bunch of wacky dudes.

They're underground, there's bases.

They're shooting lasers through the earth's crust,

and they move them at light speed.

There's a lot of those guys.

They seem schizophrenic. They seem crazy.

They might even be disinformation agents.

They might be people that are designed to

muddy the waters, which for sure has happened.

People are coming forward, though, now. It's amazing.

And by doing this, what you're doing, you're providing

an opportunity for Bob to tell his story.

Believe it or not, he can tell his story.

It's amazing because more people will come forward

now that are involved with these projects.

They'll come forward to you, to me.

They're coming forward.

And so what you've done here is

provide that opportunity if they need it.

And it's amazing.

I just want to say, Bob, just don't come forward to me.

No, don't come forward to Bob.

Why were you freaking nauseous at the

beginning of this, like, so upset?

Why did you have a migraine?

Because that started off so hard my God.

I was sitting here like, did this?

Why are you asking him why?

Because obvious anxiety.

The guy's gone through 30

fucking years of being persecuted.

I just want to raise his birth certificate.

I want to hear him say I want them.

Why do I have to say that?

I step out.

Okay, settle down.

Yeah, well, I get it.

It was hard for you to get

him here, and I appreciate for us.

What really annoys me are the people that think you

guys just came up with the story to make a

bunch of money or get a bunch of attention.

That's a good point.

Please explain that.

First of all, I don't get any money out of this at all.

And I didn't even let you guys buy plane

tickets for me to come out here or anything.

I mean, anytime.

When Jeremy previewed, I guess the movie up in Michigan,

it brought in, like, a couple of made sure that

$2,000 went to science programs at the local high schools.

There dirty money.

I don't want to touch it.

I don't take any money from this stuff.

And as far as attention, I hate fucking attention.

I don't like being on shows.

I just want to kind of hide in the corner and do my

own thing so that I got enough hugs when I was a kid.

Okay?

I don't need any attention.

So, no.

If you think somehow we came up with this thing,

then you got to tell me why we did it.

Well, you've done a great job of making sure

you have your bases covered in that regard, that

you haven't profited off of this, and like you

said, that you have donated whatever money that came

your way to science programs.

It doesn't make any sense any other way.

What I've gotten out of here is what I thought I was

going to get out of here when I watched the documentary.

That what you're saying makes sense.

It doesn't make sense that it's bullshit that

happened exactly like I said it did.

Joe, I believe you.

In closing, is there anything else you'd like to say?

No, I can't think of anything other than

really don't come and try to visit me.

Well, I know that you have paid a huge personal

cost to get this information out, and, I mean, maybe

you didn't understand what that cost would have been when

you first initially came forward with the story, but over

the past 30 years, it's been immense. It's been great.

And I just want to thank you for that

and thank you for all these people that would

not have gotten this information and would not have

really had this story any other way. Oh, thanks, Joe.

Thank you.

And thank you, Jeremy.

And one more time, the documentary

is available on Netflix right now.

Yeah, it's called Bob lazar.

Area 51 and flying saucers.

All right, that's it, folks. Good night.

Yeah, you did.

It's our channel.