Original subtitles

I didn't get your name.

Um, Michael. You can call me Michael.

My name is Doctor Michael Gellis.

- We're just gonna take our time. - Okay.

So, um, let's do the first phase, okay?

Put that drink down.

Go on.

Yeah. It was...

All right.

Yeah.

- Good. - And...

What's happening?

Will you please stand?

Stephen and Karen share their joy

and celebrate their love.

Marriage is a gift of God in creation,

through which husband and wife may know the grace of God.

It is given that as man and woman...

- Stephen and his girls. - ...grow together in love and trust,

they shall be united with one another in heart,

body and mind as Christ is united

with his bride...

I'm glad you did, too.

Yeah, I'm still hanging out in ambiguity.

I mean, clearly, I think law enforcement knows

what this has done

to my relationship with my mother.

And I think if they had information

that would rule out my mother's involvement in any way,

that they should share that with me.

If James City County has information,

just tell me. Just tell me upfront.

Tell Margie upfront.

You know, don't keep a family wondering.

'Cause all you're doing is devastating a family

and tearing a family apart.

I just think they're afraid to say, "Yeah, hey,

we blew this case from the very beginning."

Hey, Jake. Stephen.

- Yes. - How are you?

All right.

Good. Hey, a quick question.

I'm trying to figure out...

Um, do you guys believe that my mother's

tellin' the truth about what she knows?

Right.

Right. And is this like forensic stuff?

Is it handwriting? Can you give me some idea

as to what...

It's more handwriting stuff?

All right.

Okay. All right. Talk to you soon, Jake.

See ya. Bye.

So, I called Jake Rice at the police department.

He said that they had sent some things

to the lab, some handwriting.

- Um... - But he hasn't told you

- what's in there yet. - He has not.

- Well, I hope that... - So...

...they don't just let you sit there and think and think

and think, that they do somewhat give you

some knowledge of what's going on.

This is just

my mother's handwriting analysis that was done

by the Department of Forensic Science.

Handwriting analysis of my father,

they ruled him out as the writer of the note.

But it was inconclusive as it relates to my mom.

I interpreted that as an indication

that she wrote the note.

Right, it was inconclusive that she wrote it,

but it was always said with the context

of, "She likely wrote it."

Uh, we are getting ready to call Sheila Lowe,

who is a...

I guess a graphologist,

sort of a handwriting examiner expert.

Just trying to learn about it. Oh. Hi, Sheila.

- Hi, there. - How are you?

I'm good. How are you?

I'm doing great. Thank you.

I guess you got the note that was left

when she disappeared.

Yes.

So you had samples of Kerry Hendrix,

his handwriting, her ex-boyfriend,

Tony, and my mother and my father?

The police had somebody look at this a long time ago

that ruled out my father as the writer of the note.

I strongly agree that your father,

he's not capable of writing the note.

His handwriting is so rigid and so extremely linear

that it would be almost impossible for him

to write in a rounded fashion like this.

Do you think that my mother wrote it then?

- No. - No?

I don't. The sample that I looked at,

that was close to the time of writing...

Well, I'm looking at the individual letter forms

and at the spacing, which is the most important,

it's so unconscious that it's not something

that the person is going to think to change.

It seems to me that her spacing is more compact.

- The words are written closer... - Hm-mm.

...than in the note which is, you know,

it has quite wide spacing.

Yeah, quite wide spacing.

One of the reasons why I ruled it out

was 'cause of the way she made the Fs.

They were very sharp and pointed on the top.

- That seems like a strong idiosyncrasy. - Right.

That's not at all in the note.

I looked at the handwriting of the man

- that she babysat for... - Kerry Hendrix. Yeah.

Yeah. But, um,

again, I couldn't find any evidence.

Now, Tony, I had pretty much ruled out.

And then I saw one sample that put him back in the frame

to some degree. That was this one.

That was the only one that was large and rounded.

But there are still some characteristics

that were quite different.

And there's not the kind of evidence

that I would look for to say that he did it.

But it was interesting that he had the capability

to write this way.

Huh.

- It's not like DNA. - Right.

It's opinion.

Some mysteries are just unsolvable.

Right.

So what'd you find out?

Uh, Jack, Jake, whatever his name is...

Jack from James City County that y'all talked to.

He said there was a piece of information

in the file

that got overlooked.

And it was about a one-armed guy,

Charlie May.

And I said, "I've never heard of the guy."

So, I still don't know who it is.

An investigator from James City County

told me that this Charlie May had a relationship

with Tony Tobler.

Who's this Tony person?

Tony Tobler was Jennifer's boyfriend. Mm.

Well, what does that make you think?

Makes me think like,

A, who in the hell is this Charlie May...

...and what's really going on?

And did Tony Tobler...

Because I still in... In my mind think

Tony Tobler has something to do with it.

I... I'm just being flat-out honest.

The police mentioned

the name of Charlie May to your dad.

Do you know who that is?

We've been researching him.

I've never... I don't know who that...

- Yeah. - I have no idea

- who that is. - So we've been,

like, anything like that, we've been trying our best to...

Was he a friend of Jennifer's? Was he a...

He was apparently a friend of Tony's

that was an older gentleman.

- And so... - Like how old?

And he apparently has one arm.

So, we've been researching...

...trying to figure out, like, who this person might be.

- All right. - If there is

a significant finding,

is he required to tell the family?

Yeah. I don't know.

Yeah, there's something...

He's got something brewing.

I just feel like they have found something.

- Good morning. - Morning.

Y'all look like good mornings.

It turned into something that you didn't expect.

- Amen to that. - Mm-hmm.

- And this... - I don't think

that our department expected

the case to do probably, you know.

Not to say that it...

At one point in time, it was honed in on one place.

So now, if new information comes that shows difference

than Mom and Dad, we can't ignore it.

I will not answer that question at this point in time.

I've met with Stephen. I've told him. I mean,

let... let us do our job,

and once we come to stuff that can be released,

he will know.

Is there anything you can tell us

about the special grand jury?

I don't know what you're talking about.

I can't speak of anything at this time.

- Hello? - Hey.

So, you know, I sent Jake a text again

this morning. He called me back and he heard back from the lab.

And he was asking me if I had or my mother would have,

any other writings of Jennifer.

Ideally, some handwriting samples

of Tony.

But it sounded like

they had two smaller samples of Tony's handwriting,

and that the analysis of that handwriting

does not rule him out as the writer of the note.

And then that's why he called looking for other samples

of Tony's handwriting from the high school days.

I don't know if my mother would have samples

of Tony's handwriting from that period of time.

This call is being recorded.

Hey, I just want to let you know that I called

your mom and she has a box of notes

that Jen was passing back and forth.

But it's up in her attic.

She said I could come by and pick it up.

- So, I'm gonna go do that. - Okay, great.

- Hey, Margie. - Hey.

Oh, right here th...

Yeah, the Puma shoebox.

The Puma shoebox. Okay.

Okay.

That right there is from Tony.

- It is. - Mm-hmm.

- All right. Thank you. - Bye-bye.

- Okey-doke. - Okay.

Oh, boy.

Yeah, I think that one is from Tony.

Holy cow.

Okay, so we can make a Tony stack.

This is a Tony.

It looks like my sister wrote a brief note.

Tony.

Tony.

Tony.

Yeah, this is it. This is all of it.

There's dozens of them here. Jake's gonna be really happy.

But he did tell you that they're looking at Tony.

Tony. Yeah, he did say that.

I wonder why this guy...

Why Charlie May? What, I mean...

What's the, you know...

What is the connection?

- So we do know a few things... - Mm-hmm.

...that we haven't said anything about.

But they did have a special grand jury.

And we went. We saw Tony

and Charlie May go in.

- When was this? - This was back in August.

I wish somebody would have told me that.

Hello?

Hey, Stephen, it's Jake.

So, we got this box of letters from Tony.

There's, like, probably 50 of them here.

Do you want me to send them all to you?

- Yes. - Do you want

- a few of them? - All of them.

Well, I'm gonna overnight it to you.

- You'll have this tomorrow. - Okay.

- Question. Um... - Uh-huh?

What... what changed,

or what did you guys find that...

is leading you towards Tony?

Because I'm trying to process all this,

- you know, Jake. - Well, and it's... like,

I met with you when we had found that file.

And in there, there was some people's names

that hadn't ever been, you know, talked to or anything else.

So that led to me actually finding an individual

that provided information that led me, even more,

towards where I'm going now.

It's 'cause it's very hard.

We don't have a body or a place to say,

"Hey, this was a crime scene 30 years ago."

You know, if I send all this and it comes back and says,

"Definitively, this individual has wrote the letter,"

then somebody needs to be... Have some explaining.

Okay.

All right. Well, I'll get this to you.

Um, you'll... You'll have it tomorrow.

All right. I appreciate it, Stephen.

Okay, thank you.

- All right, thank you. - Okay.

- Bye. - Bye.

"February 24th, 1986.

I love you so dearly. I want to go shopping with you

so I can buy you a promise ring.

I seriously do 'cause I love you

and I would not mind marrying you."

"March 24th, 1986.

I want to fall asleep with you sometime soon.

If me and you ever have a child, I think we will, I hope so.

If it's a little girl, I want it to look like you."

"June 6th, 1986.

As long as we work out our problems,

we will stay together. Unless you cheat on me,

or I cheat on you.

Don't think nothing like that will happen though,

'cause we love each other.

And you know I would kill you and whoever it was."

So this one right here,

Stephen, this is September 24th.

So this was after they broke up, after the abortion.

"How are you doing? You seem to be in a good mood.

I tried calling you last night.

I called several times and let it ring

about four times, but you never called back."

This is a packet.

We just got Jennifer's notes.

In those notes, I read a part

where she describes a sexual act that she...

- Mm-hmm. - ...did with him.

"October 11th, 1986."

- Right after the abortion. - When'd she have the abortion?

I think it was in August of '86.

Ah-ha! "My arms have marks on them,

not to mention bruises from where you threw me

on the bed. Hope you're happy.

Stop throwing me around like some dumbass whore.

Call me back and call me when you say you are..."

"I told you I didn't care

if it was two in the morning. Just call me back

when you say you are. Stop lying to me.

I know you couldn't stay away from Cori for one freaking day.

Now, I see

why you didn't want me to go to the mall with you.

'Cause you had already planned to pick up Cori."

August, she has the abortion.

- Mm-hmm. - October '86,

she's still fooling around with Tony.

He's given her bruises, from this letter.

- She still loves him. - But he's with Cori.

But with Cori.

And then in February, 1987, she goes missing.

Mm-hmm.

So if they were still together

in October,

were they still together in February?

- Sneaking around behind Cori's back. - Right. Right.

Were they still sneaking around?

Because that's what they were doing...

- Yeah. - ...behind Cori's back.

I didn't know any of this. I was gone.

I didn't know any of it.

As things change in your life

and your direction goes somewhere else,

you don't think about it.

After a certain amount of time, it's just... just...

It's not there.

You know, as far as you thinking about it,

or as often as you should, you know,

and it's actually something that, sadly, you get to a point

where you just... Kind of just forget about it.

Say that again.

Did I think that other people thought

I had something to do with it?

Not until years later.

I'm talking to a police officer that her dad...

you know. My guess was like, "Well, talk to him."

You know and my response was, um, I think I was...

16 years old.

Okay. You know, what would I have to do with it?

From the breakup?

I mean, how long do y'all think that her and I dated?

'Cause it wasn't long.

I mean it wasn't like years or nothin'. So...

And what interactions have you had with...

It has thrown him for a huge loop

and made him question everything.

It's been torture.

Just to be blunt.

I think he wants to understand and believe

that maybe this new turn that the case and the story

has taken is true.

He... I think he really wants it to be true.

To me,

there's some... Still some really weird things

that if your child goes missing,

why would you make something up,

or why... I just...

From everything that I have seen and read,

it still raises red flags with me.

I do not think he will ever reconcile

with his father. Um...

But I do... He is talking more and more about recon...

You know, reconciling with his mother

and showing compassion.

He keeps using that word over and over again to me.

- Compassion. - Compassion.

Uh, this is...

Like, I guess the, um, Tony to Jennifer.

This is from a note dated April 11th, 1986.

"I'm glad you called me last night at Charlie's.

I'm glad we had that talk

that we had. I love you so much."

"February 3rd, 1986.

Dear Jennifer, how are you? I'm terrible.

Right now I'm over at Charlie's.

I tried to call you, but you were babysitting."

"April 11th, 1986. It's 12:30.

I just spent the last hour and a half

talking to Charlie out in the woods.

Jennifer, I've cried my eyes out tonight.

I've cried about Charlie..."

Here's a bunch of notes that references Charlie.

So, clearly, they knew each other, right?

Or my sister knew Charlie

and I don't know if he helped them...

Did you ever see Charlie?

- I don't know. - You know,

when we first started...

- Sure. - ...talking, everybody's focus,

- including mine... - Yeah.

...was, like, zeroed in on your father and your mother

because nobody knew who this Charlie was...

- Right. - ...until he shows up at the Grand Jury.

Never... never met him, never seen him.

- Okay. - Never heard his name

until relatively recently.

And we're producers.

The first that we heard of Charlie was through your dad.

So, then we found, like, four or five Charlie Mays

in the South that fit that age group.

He popped up in the system again

because he had an assault charge,

and so it allowed us to find him.

Okay.

Well...

I'd love to... I'd love to talk to Charlie May.

We have the number of the woman who operates

- that homeless shelter. - Mm-hmm.

Eight-hour drive, it says, from Charlotte.

How ya doin'? Charlie? All right, come on in.

How ya doin', sir?

I'm doing great, how are you?

Come on in and have a seat.

- Good morning, sir. I'm Charles. - Good morning.

- I'm Stephen Pandos. - Steve?

I'm Jennifer's brother.

Oh, I'm sorry for your loss.

- I hope we can... - Thank you.

- ...get this figured out. - Yeah, well. Me too.

I'd like to

have some justice for Jennifer and some peace for my mother.

- Yes, I'm sure. - Yes.

How did you meet Tony? Uh, you know?

I was out on the railroad tracks

one day and, you know, doing my martial arts workout

on the tracks and smokin' a joint,

and Tony was walkin' out and comin' up to.

We sit there,

- and we got high together. - Mm-hmm.

You know, once in a while he'd asked me to get him

a bag of weed and I'd get him some,

or I'd ask him to get me... Ask if he'd give me a bag.

Yeah. So, you know, that was just more or less...

We was more or less just...

associates smoking weed.

What did the police ask you?

Basically, if I helped her get away,

- leave from the house, and... - Mm-hmm.

...I've never done that.

You knew that she was Tony's girlfriend?

Right, exactly. 'Cause he introduced her

when I first seen him and her up at the store.

"This is my girlfriend-slash-fiancée."

Okay.

And then I didn't see him for such a long time.

You know, the day he called, it shocked me.

He says, "I got a question for you." I said, "Okay."

And he says, uh...

"How do... If you...

If you had to get rid of a dead body,

what would... How would you do it?"

I just simply said, "Well, just take...

Put 'em in a bucket of acid,"

you know?

It would dissolve the body or whatever.

- Mm-hmm. - But, uh...

he said, "Where would I get a barrel?"

I said, "I guess off an old construction site,

I don't know. Just an old burn barrel."

- Sure. - "What about acid?"

I said, "You've got all these

different places building houses.

They got to clean the brick..."

- Mm-hmm. - "...after they put a brick up.

The brick's normally cleaned with muriatic acid.

And that's what... They're in gallon jugs, Jim.

That's what you're gonna have to get."

"Oh, okay, okay." You know.

He had a little anxiousness in his voice.

Mm-hmm.

He called me back and told me,

"Hey, that little problem I said... I told you I had,

don't worry, I got... It's taken care of."

"Uh-huh?"

I didn't understand what he was talkin' about.

He says, "About needing to get rid of a dead body."

And I said, "Oh, yeah. Okay."

And I just kinda laughed about it,

and said, "Right Tony. Yeah, sure."

- Mm-hmm. - You know?

I thought he was joking.

It took him two or three times before he'd say anything.

He told me he got in a fight with your sister.

That he'd hit her. She fell and hit her head.

And...

she was dead.

I didn't think what he was saying was true.

- Right. - So, I didn't say nothin'

to the police or anything 'cause I didn't know.

But I didn't think he was joking when the cops come out

talking to me, saying I had something

to do with something.

Did you tell the police in... in 1987

that... that Tony had called you?

I don't believe I did. I just...

Everything was so crazy.

- Yeah. Yeah. - And...

...it's still crazy.

So the cops showed up and started interviewing you

in 1987.

Browbeat me.

Took a... took more or less, you know,

"You're dead. You're a goner.

You're guilty. You did this. You did..."

"No. I did not do that."

What were this and that?

That you would have, like, went into the neighborhood...

- Yeah. - ...that you went to her house,

- and helped her leave and... - Right. Exactly.

I've told time and time again,

over and over,

I did not take Jennifer from your home,

or help her leave that area.

And I did not have anything to do with

this murder, or whatever you wanna call it,

which it could... It could've been an accident.

- I don't know. I wasn't there. - Sure. Yeah. Right

He did say that he used a barrel of acid?

He just said the problem was taken care of.

- So, you don't know how he took care of it? - I don't know how he done it.

Like, is there anybody else

that you may have spoken to back then and said,

- "Tony called me and told me?" - No.

Nope.

Do you have any further questions

- for me? - I don't, Charlie.

I know it's probably unorthodox, but may I pray with you?

Sure.

Most Gracious Heavenly Father, Lord God, Jehovah,

I ask you, Father God,

place your hands upon the Pandos family.

Give them Jennifer.

Lord, I ask you to take and bring her up

for the family to have closure.

Put your loving arms around the family.

I lift them up to you, Lord, to protect.

I lift them up to you to give the answers.

It's just hard to hear.

Really hard to hear.

So, how reliable do you think Charlie May is?

Charlie has his issues.

But he doesn't have any reason to make it up.

It does cause me concern

that in 1987,

when they interviewed him initially,

that he didn't say a thing about any of this.

Certainly disappointing that he didn't.

What are the reasons why he didn't? I don't know.

None of them could be very good.

Yeah, that story, like if you are sitting there

as a prosecutor with that being the piece of evidence

that you have...

You'd want more.

Over the last week, there's been one or two moments where...

the shame of thinking that my parents were involved

in this moral atrocity was lifted.

But those moments, you know all that is...

...it's replaced by, you know, an extreme guilt.

Right? For all that I have denied my mother,

and her relationship with Elizabeth

and Anna Catherine, and theirs with her.

And it's no one's fault but my own

that I have caused so much hurt on top

of an already tragic situation.

And that's crushing.

What's the next step with your mom do you think?

You know, get some more information

from Jake if I can.

Um...

And then...

And then figure out the things with my mom.

Everybody needs your mom.

I think she needs you, too.

Yeah.

What do you want from Stephen?

Do you want, like, an apology or...

No, no apology.

What he did, he...

And what he's doing...

about the investigation...

just fills my heart.

But...

it breaks my heart at the same time

that he has...

...taken the attitude with me that he has.

But, no.

He doesn't need to walk in the door

and say, "Mom, I'm sorry."

Um...

All he needs to do is walk in the door.

That's all. That's all.

This call is being recorded.

I spoke to Jake for just a second.

And he made reference to... My sister wrote Tony a note,

I don't know if it was in a notebook,

the night before she disappeared.

Huh.

Jake didn't know if she gave it to him.

If she, you know, read it to him or whatever.

And how does he know that it was written that night?

The night before she disappeared?

- I guess it was dated. - Yeah.

- Hello. - Hey, Jake. Stephen.

- Hey. - How are ya?

All right.

So, the note that I've got, the copy of it

that I'd found in the file,

it's dated 2/9 of '87 at 7:42 p.m.

- Okay. - So, this says,

"Tony. Hey, what's up?

Like, I'm kind of imagining you're at Cori's right now.

Anyways, I just wrote to tell you

that you should not have lied to me.

I'm not yet sure what I'm gonna do to hurt you

the way that you hurt me by lying to me.

But I can assure it won't be pleasant.

I think I'm gonna do you a very, very big..."

"I think I'm going to do you

a very, very big favor.

Just don't ask what 'cause I'll only tell you

when I feel the time is right.

But I will tell you this.

It will do you a very big favor, at least in my eyes,

which could be deceiving you.

Well, just thought I'd say

you'll pay for lying to me. Jennifer."

As she's writing that,

that was the night before. I talked to her that night.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

If Jennifer was about to... to... To bust him for a lie,

for a big lie where he...

Tony had something to lose,

it's not that far of a stretch that something bad

- and unintentional happened. - Right. Right.

- I did tell the... Jake... - Mm-hmm.

...she would've walked out of the house

for only one person and that was Tony

who could've gotten her out of the house.

All right.

But it's just...

all these emotions that, like,

I remember going through then of being mad

and if she really did run away, and then you learn...

And then you learn that it has nothing to do with you...

- Had nothing. Exactly. - ...and how you internalize it,

and how you think about it.

- It's crazy. - You know, how you...

How people experience things and reality may...

- Mm-hmm. Yeah. - ...indeed be

the 180-degrees opposite

- of... of what they think. - Right.

The way that it reads,

it points to that individual doing it.

So, the probable is more of a not,

- "Okay, we're at 50/50." - Yeah.

It suggests that he wrote it.

You've been patient for a long time.

You just gonna have to be patient for a little bit longer.

This is the affidavit

for a search warrant for Tony's DNA. It's...

I think 13 pages,

and then Attachment A is the affidavit

from the police department.

The affidavit just spells out probable cause

for the search warrant.

Okay. There we go.

Thirteen. It's... That's six dollars and 50 cents.

- Thank you so much. - No problem. Have a good day.

Thanks. You, too.

So you know, this says, "On 10/24, 2017,

Investigator Rice interviewed Charlie May

at the Crestview, Florida Police Department.

Charlie May advised that Tony called him and asked,

'How you would get rid of evidence

if you'd killed someone?'

Charlie told Tony he would put them in acid.

Charlie states that it wasn't until later

that Tony told him that he had killed his girlfriend.

Charlie stated that Tony told him he had a fight

with her over getting pregnant

and her parents are going to press rape charges."

Charlie did not tell us all this

when we were in Florida.

- Yeah, he did. - He didn't say anything

about rape charges.

Well, no, he didn't say anything about that.

But, um...

But he talked about the barrel and he talked about acid.

So, it appears that Tony told him

that he'd stole some acid from a construction site

with a metal barrel.

"Tony told Charlie that he had placed her

in the barrel and filled it with acid.

Charlie states Tony would never say

what he did with the barrel, but Charlie advised him

there was some low-lying area off the right side

of the railroad tracks that runs behind

Windy Hill Trailer Park."

Because in this one,

he says the barrel of acid story did happen.

And when we talked to him, he said he wasn't sure

if it happened.

Well, right. He told... But, yeah,

what he said in Florida was that

that's what he told Tony he would do.

Mm-hmm. And this is...

In this account, he says that's what he...

- That's what he did. - That's what Tony did.

Mm-hmm. Right.

I don't know that that's just...

material in my mind. So...

Hi, Wendi.

Hey, Stephen. How are you?

- Great. How are you? - Great.

So, you got this search warrant and affidavit?

I did. Yes.

So, what do you think after reading this?

So, yeah, I left the department, um, in 2019,

and I'm retired from there now. So, I still talk with, um,

a few people with the department.

I have a few different opinions.

You know, the first being, uh, Charlie May

as being reliable. They did a few interviews

- with him in Florida. - Yeah.

You know, I was told that he gave,

I think, four different written statements.

So, to me, that's a little concerning,

- just from... - Mm-hmm.

...you know, from the standpoint

of getting a valid statement from someone.

- Mm-hmm. - You know, as far as

the information that was provided,

I find it hard to believe that a 17-year-old, um,

would know where to find this type of stuff.

And a 17-year-old being able to kill someone,

hide the body, never tell anybody

that tells someone else, and then the body's never found.

A hundred pounds of weight

can be a lot

when you start mixing a lot of liquid in it.

My understanding is they said it was a 55-gallon drum.

That filled with liquid is heavy.

That'd be hard for any... Any one person to deal with.

- Exactly. - Yeah.

From reading this attachment for the search warrant,

it seems like the whole case that they have against Tony

is based on what Charlie May is saying

until you get to the last paragraph on that page,

where they talk about the handwriting.

You know, so there's just...

There is a lot of doubt still.

You know, what I had learned from this discovery

- of the original case file... - Mm-hmm.

...definitely gave me reason to rethink,

you know, the case against your mom and dad.

It definitely gave me doubt.

You know, but the same thing goes for Tony.

Uh, yeah. Like, for a decade,

everybody was telling me, "It was your parents." Right?

You know, I can't tell you how awful it feels

to accuse people of killing their kid

and then find out that there's information

that was there in the very beginning

that would have helped that not happen.

Wendi could get pretty nasty.

I mean...

downright disrespectful and rude.

But, I guess, that's all part of the game.

You don't sit down and ask polite questions

when you want something.

You know, it's...

destroyed my relationships with my son and my sisters.

Really.

I don't see one.

I really don't. It's been too long.

Your call has been forwarded

to an automated voice messaging system.

Good morning. It's Stephen Pandos.

Um, just calling to see, uh,

if you have an update from the lab?

I guess, it's been ten weeks today.

Uh, if you could please give me a call

when you get a minute,

I'd appreciate it. Thanks very much.

Since January of 2009.

Fourteen years. Thirteen and a half years or so.

And been filming for the documentary,

seven years.

- With you. - Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. I mean, maybe it probably, you know,

uh, in the early days, when this was a way for me

to perhaps, you know, um...

you know, exercise a lot of anger towards my father,

you know, about growing up.

Can we talk about the DNA testing?

It seems like such a long shot for them to extract DNA

from a note that was left in Jennifer's room 35 years ago.

And for 20 of those years,

you know, it was in your mom's possession.

And, you know, other people

surely touched the note.

But what if it comes back

and it's not a match? What does that say?

Nothing really.

I mean, 'cause again... 'Cause a lot of people

have had their hands on that note.

At this point, is it important for you to know

what happened to Jennifer?

Jennifer's truth deserves to be told, whatever it is.

- Hello, Stephen. - How are you?

- Good to see you. - Good to see you.

Come on back.

We've been on the phone so many times,

I'm not even sure, have you ever been here?

- I don't think you have. - I've never been. Not in your office, no.

- So, you wanna just take a seat? - Yep.

You know, I guess we're still waiting

- for an update from the lab. - Yes, uh...

And from what I understand, it's been a long time.

It has been a lot longer than we anticipated.

I do know that you've been frustrated,

uh, with, kind of,

our inability to give you a lot of updates on this case.

And I would love to be able to tell you more

about where we are looking, but that's where we get

into that balance of I've got to be fair

to both the investigation and to any individual

- that... - Yeah.

...could potentially be charged in the future.

I just can't talk with you

about where that investigation is going now.

- I can't imagine what you've been going through. - Yeah.

I have nothing but sympathy for everything

that you and your family have gone through

because of this.

I would like nothing more than to be able

- to deliver you that truth... - Right.

...in the courtroom.

But I also don't want to say

that I... I know for a fact

that we are eventually going to be in a position

that we can charge somebody.

This is so different than anything

that we've ever handled, anything that I've ever handled.

Because we didn't have that original file, you know.

We came to some bad conclusions

because of imperfect information.

And we've probably tiptoed around something

that I think I should have made more clear years ago.

And that is

the information that we have now.

All right.

Your parents are not suspects in this case.

- They were at the time... - Right.

...but this office

is not looking at your parents, either your mother

or your father, as being involved

with your sister's disappearance.

We do not suspect that your dad did this...

- Yeah. - ...and we do not suspect

that your mother had any knowledge of it,

- or had any role whatsoever. - Right. Right.

I feel like I have to, um...

you know, to restart...

you know, that relationship.

And so I have to do it and I have to try.

I wanna go and I wanna talk to my mother about it,

and, you know, I need to do that in... in private.

What I'm gonna tell my mom

is that the police are now looking at Tony.

But I don't know the outcome...

and I'm probably just going to leave it at that.

Um, I'm not gonna get into any of the specifics

of what Charlie said.

That's too much.

I have to use the lessons learned

from this whole experience to have a better relationship.

I feel in my heart that that's what I have to do.

She needs a relationship with me,

she needs a relationship with her granddaughters,

she needs that.

- Hi, Mom. - Hey, babe.

- Good to see you. - You, too.

This call may be recorded or transcribed.

Hey there.

...you need to understand how I feel about him.

Yeah.

What part of "get off the goddamn phone"

- don't you understand? - Fine, Ronald.

I'll get off the goddamn phone.

Get out of my room! That's all I'm asking. Just go.