All language subtitles for The.Secrets.of.Hillsong.S01E02.1080p.WEB.h264-OPUS

(somber piano music)

(somber piano music)

- [Interviewer] Thousands
of people looked up to you

and followed you, but how can
they trust you're authentic?

- I mean, I'm a tough
guy to ask that to,

'cause I had obviously
some major lies and secrets

that I was carrying for years.

Nobody's meant to live
with lies, nobody.

I think for me it
had run its course.

People who grew up in our church

with Laura and I
leading them, they say,

"Okay, so Carl had
some areas in his life

"where he wasn't
honest with anybody,

"himself, with his
wife, with his church.

"Does that mean everything
he preached isn't honest?"

(somber music)

If you are led by somebody,
you have to trust them,

and I think the biggest breach,
one of the biggest breaches,

my life, my situation
would've brought

would've been a breach of
trust to thousands of people.

Marriage, any married
people in here?

We love you.

Especially my wife
and my children,

I failed at that,

but Hillsong failed at that too.

(somber music)

(somber music)

(somber music)

(Laura chuckles nervously)

(dramatic soul music)

♪ I hope you find some peace
of mind in this lifetime ♪

♪ I hope you find
some paradise ♪

(dramatic music)

(dramatic music)

(dramatic music)

(footsteps pattering)

(papers slap)

(Carl chuckles)

(Carl grunts)

- I haven't thought
about sermon stuff,

you know, in a while.

You don't forget how you felt,
why you wrote some of these.

A message called
"The mask has to go."

(Carl laughs)

Gotta have your strength mask,

so everybody knows
you could handle it.

Gotta have your happy mask,

so everybody will always
think you're having fun.

Gotta have your sex appeal mask,

after all, that's your value.

All these masks are
designed to hide need.

You need to face some of
the issues in your life,

so others can face theirs.

Yeah, this is heavy to read.

It's, um...

(tense music)

You could only get
the help you need

if you let down the
drawbridge of your life,

and typically people like
me, the drawbridge stays up.

In the back of your mind,
you're always going,

"This is not gonna end well."

You know when you go backwards
and you start finding out

about how you ended up
places, you find out,

wow, I've thought about
this day for a while.

- All right, let's
consider our giving.

Come up here, Carl,
come on, Carl.

Carl Lentz, who is a college
student in Australia.

- Fear, that's how my
preaching style developed.

What's funny is I,

I didn't know enough
about preaching to
have a style at all.

- So come on, Carl.

- How you doing?

The first message
I ever preached,

that was the first
time I learned the
power of desperation.

Like I preached
like I was on fire.

I basically like paced
a hole in the carpet,

like I never stopped moving,

and I didn't know
any other speed.

I survived that night,
and I remember the lesson.

You know, you're not always
gonna have it before the moment,

but once you get in that
moment, if you trust God,

he'll come through.

Well you just gotta get on
your knees and get desperate.

Get on your knees and say,

"God, I want more
out of this life.

"I want you to use me more.

"I want you to give
me more passion.

"I want you to
give me more fire.

"I am desperate to go
from here to there.

"Do something with me!"

(crowd mutters)

I was a good freaking speaker,
and I did it all the time,

anywhere that I had to do it.

Yes, New York is a challenge,

but just like that, I always
saw it as an opportunity.

(uptempo music)

You know, Brian actually
told me, he said,

"I picked you for this
'cause I know you'll try

"to win this city one
by one if you have to."

We wanted to reach lost people.

We wanted to open up
the doors really wide.

You know, pound the
fricking pavement.

(uptempo music)

If we're gonna reach New York
City, we gotta do it our way.

It's not gonna be traditional,
it's not gonna be normal.

(uptempo music)

I remember waking Laura up
one night at like 2:00 AM,

and I'm like, "Laura,
you gotta wrap,

"you gotta wrap
these seven bibles."

And me and my friend,
we're gonna go to the club,

you know, I know the DJ,

so we're gonna be
up in this DJ booth.

She's like, "I gotta do what?

"Like wrap bibles?"

And so she wrapped
them in newspapers,

and we like put
'em in our jackets,

and go give these bibles
to people that I love,

and we would do stuff
like that all the time.

(uptempo music)

Originally in 2010 we started

with maybe two or
three services,

and then quickly
probably went to four,

and then after that we
went to five and six.

You keep on believing,
you keep on fighting.

Some of it wouldn't
even be planned.

I remember one
service in particular,

where it was the last
service of the day,

it was like seven o'clock, and
there's 400 people outside.

That's kind of how much
fun and crazy it was.

(Carl preaching in the distance)

We were reaching people that
had never been to church,

or people who gave up on
all religion whatsoever,

so it was a good problem.

Anybody, take a
20-second praise break,

and give God a shot of praise

if he's done anything
in your life.

(crowd cheers)

- [Announcer] Hillsong
Australia presents

Hills Leadership College.

Not just another institution,

but a unique ministry
training facility,

part of a vital,
living, growing church.

- The church that I see
is a church so committed

to raising, training
and empowering a
leadership generation.

(somber synth music)

- Went to Hillsong Bible
College to like see the campus.

This really cool surfer dude
rolls up in this big truck,

and he's like, "Are
you new to college?"

I'm like, "Yeah."

He's like, "We're
gonna go to Maccas."

I'm like, "What
the heck is Maccas,

"like what are you
talking about?"

Found out it was McDonald's,

and then, like, that's
how I met Joel Houston.

We were best friends
from that moment.

(waves crashing)

- I went to Hillsong College.

I had never left
New York before.

It was hard leaving, but
everyone around me was like,

"God got you," and I'm
like, "Okay, God got me."

All my friends pulled together

and helped me
raise all the money

that I needed for my semester.

I left in hopes that I
would become a pastor.

Hillsong College teaches you
about Hillsong leadership,

how to run a Hillsong
service, and how to...

I don't...

Hillsong College didn't
really teach me much.

(Tiff laughs)

I was sitting and
listening to lecturers,

but some of them didn't
have a degree to teach.

It was not what I
thought it would be.

(uptempo music)

- When Carl was attending
college in Sydney,

he first caught Brian's eye,

and he handpicked
him as an assistant,

and then eventually
as a protege.

- Yeah, obviously,
just being around Joel

means you're gonna be
around Brian and Bobbie,

so you get to know 'em
in a different way.

You know, literally
living at their house,

and growing to love them
like another set of parents.

The funny thing is, I was
never really good at school,

I actually didn't like
it, but I was good.

Bible college, I crushed it.

I mean I loved the assignments,

I loved the work,
and I loved learning

about the stuff I've
always wondered about.

- I remember one time the
Principal asked all the women

to stay behind, and lecture
us about making sure

that we weren't wearing things

that would make our
brothers stumble.

And I remember looking
around the room and I'm like,

"I'm sorry, what?"

- What a great thing to know
that you and I as followers

of Christ aren't limited
by this natural world.

(hands clapping)
(students cheering)

- Father, I thank
you that we can brave

every storm of our life.

- In the case of Hillsong,

you do have women in positions
of religious authority,

but that doesn't
necessarily mean

that you actually have equality.

Even though you might
have a woman on stage,

she will often be on
stage next to her husband

in a kind of supporting role.

- My beautiful bride of
nearly 22 years is gonna come

and encourage us around
our giving this morning.

Thanks, babe.
- Amen.

- Look who I brought
up with me tonight.

(crowd cheers)

(pastor chuckles)

- [Kristin] Women will
often be kind of directed

to ministering to other women,

but not necessarily the
Sunday morning services.

(crowd applauding)

- Amen, amen, amen.

Hallelujah.

- Bobbie Houston is Brian's
wife and often functioned

as Brian for the
women of the church.

There is a lot of
focus in Hillsong

on the way women should
comport themselves

in terms of the way they dress,

the way they carry themselves,
the way they have sex.

(dramatic music)

And Bobbie in so many
cases was positioned,

and positioned herself, as
the standard bearer of that.

- Laura, much to smile
about in your life.

You have three
beautiful children.

Her children, her
husband, and even her God,

will stand up and
give her praise,

and that is the ending
that God wants you

and I to experience as women.

- I think all the
girls in the house

should give all our
college boys a big cheer.

We love you.
(cheering)

- I did three years and
I was able to graduate.

- [Announcer] Tiffany Perez
from the United States!

- Knowing that Carl had also
gone to Hillsong College,

just a few years before me,

and also got the
same certificate,

actually didn't mean much to me,

because I am not a white man.

I knew there was a ceiling
that I had to break, and,

I thought I can break it.

(cheering and
instruments blaring)

- I was in college the
same year with Carl Lentz,

with Joel Houston,
with Ben Houston.

It was clear that they had

a different experience
than we did.

Joel and Ben Houston, you know,

obviously they're in
the Houston family,

we know that they're
gonna be headed

for a leadership position,

and then there was a group

that was kind of
surrounding them,

earmarked I think for
particular attention,

closer mentorship,
things like that,

that I don't think all the
students had access to.

- But you've gotta
have the talent,

you've gotta have the magnetism.

You know, I'm sure when
Brian saw what Carl could do

at his peak, why would
you not be overjoyed

to have that in
your organization?

(dramatic music)

- Being from New York, "I
was like I could do this."

Like, it's, I saw
it as a challenge.

But I also understood that
there were younger generations

that were going to eventually
see my face somewhere,

and hope, "Hey,
Tiff looks like me.

"If she can do it, I can do it."

- God doesn't call
the qualified, he
qualifies the called.

That's definitely
my least favorite,

most triggering Hillsong phrase.

Hillsong would tell
you God, God does it,

but well I would say the
leadership of Hillsong calls

and qualifies whoever they want.

(pleasant piano music)

- I grew up in Australia.

(projector clicks)
(pleasant music)

Just the best Aussie
upbringing ever.

My parents were
really good friends

with Brian and Bobbie Houston.

(pleasant music)
(reel clicks)

- I met Brian when I
was 15 years of age.

- When Brian was starting the
Hillsong church in Australia,

he asked Kevin to be the pastor

of this new, fledgling church.

- [Kevin] I mean,
I've got photographs

of his oldest son, Joel.

Laura's in nappies
and Joel's in nappies,

so, you know, our kids
have grown up together

with their kids.

(projector clicks)

- We actually all
thought we were related

until our teenage years.

Brian and Bobbie were like my
other parents, I would say.

(pleasant music turns dramatic)

Hillsong was, that was
my extended family.

(projector whirs)

- I first met Carl when
he arrived as a student.

He brought so many
people to church.

He would reserve rows of seats

for people that he just met
when he was out and about.

It was amazing.

- Laura's mom was the
bible college principal,

and so I would always
go into her office,

and like pour out my
heart, like deep stuff.

And then I end up
dating her daughter,

it's kind of like, I
wish I wouldn't have let

that cat out of the bag.

(projector clicks)
(pleasant music)

The first time I saw
Laura, I was like,

that girl right
there is special.

Called my Mom, I said,

"Mom, I just saw the the
woman I'm gonna marry."

- The first time
I met Carl Lentz,

I had just come from the beach.

- [Carl] I remember the
way her hair flicked,

I remember the jeans she had on.

Definitely the jeans.

(Laura laughs)

- He was tall, and he had

these flared boot cut
jeans on, black boots.

Mind you, it's summer.

- [Carl] She was just like the
quintessential Aussie chick.

Often barefoot in church.

- I'm pretty sure
I had no shoes on.

- Took me a while to
get her to date me,

but I worked through all that.

(gentle piano music)

Her reservations were probably
my fake diamond chain I wore.

Probably my too cool attitude.

- [Laura] He had two
big hoop earrings in,

and his hair was like NSYNC.

- [Carl] My NSYNC hair,
my general Americanness.

- And I just remembered, I was
like, "Ah, he's so American."

Week two, I think we told each
other we loved each other.

(laughs)
It went fast.

(gentle music)
(projector clicks)

Our wedding was May 5th, 2003.

Pastor Brian did our ceremony.

We were 23 at the time.

- [Carl] You kind of
think at that stage,

getting married's
gonna fix a lot

of the issues in your heart.

Like your desire to have sex.

(tense music)

Your desire for other people.

- [Brian] Generation to know
that I knew Laura at that size,

and I can remember holding
Laura at that size,

screaming her lungs out.

(congregation laughs)

(words fade to dramatic music)

- Maybe everything in
your fleshly desire

consumes you today,
keep turning the page.

There will be a moment
where your appetite changes,

your vision changes, where
you love what God loves.

In Christianity, marriage
is only second to salvation.

So you're basically
incomplete until that happens.

You know, it was like
I gotta find this,

this missing piece that's
gonna make me whole.

There's no way that a
loving God could want you

to stay with the same
person for your whole life.

I mean it's ridiculous, right?

Marriage, yeah, it doesn't work?

Wrong.

You don't see like
true single people

in high levels of leadership.

Like somebody who's big time
preacher, and they're single.

So just you knew
that getting married

was like the next
thing you gotta do,

so everybody had that aim.

We spend so much time telling
people to get married,

how to stay pure
until you're married.

Surely I'm not gonna have
these thoughts if I'm married.

Surely I'm not gonna have these
thoughts when I get older.

Surely if I know Jesus
better, some of these thoughts

and some of these feelings
are gonna go away.

You gotta handle it head on,
or else it'll destroy you.

(distant siren wailing)
(tense music)

- In 2013, during the
period of my reporting,

Carl Lentz was a very
believable person.

- That you once lived one way,

and now I want you
to live this way.

- I couldn't find
anything that was going on

in New York that was,

sketchy, or gave me pause.

It was a very...

For me, it was an alarmingly
positive environment.

- Anybody need that
revelation today?

Maybe you came in
carrying too much?

Let me pray for you.

Father, we give you
praise right now.

- Well I mean, I don't know
where abuse of power comes in,

I don't know where
infidelity comes in,

I don't know at what
point that started.

- Men are a lot worse than women

when it comes to being honest
with what you struggle with,

'cause he's heard, "Man up."

What does that even mean?

We're a part of the new
generation, man down.

- Performance can
take over your life.

- I would rather be a man on
my knees looking vulnerable,

than being a man on
my feet living shaky,

because I don't want
God to actually help me

because somebody might know
I don't have it all together.

- You are the performer that
you have to be every Sunday,

rather than the man you
need to be every day.

- I define scandal as when
you see something happening

that should not be happening.

- I remember watching
him and thinking,

"There's no way
what this requires

"can exist in the form of a
man without that man breaking."

(tense music)

- Imagine planning a party for
20 people, and 350 show up.

The tension of Brian's
pace of expansion,

versus the reality of
what we were dealing with.

- Every time you get the
chance to stand on a platform

like this with a microphone,
it's a chance to stretch,

to enlarge, and to build people.

That's why I love
building a church.

- Hey, like, we can barely
handle what we have right now.

Like, we don't have
enough leaders,

our structure's
not strong enough.

(tense music)

- You choose to be miserable,
you choose to be pitiful.

You can throw a pity party,

and you can invite
anyone you want,

but the only person who's
gonna turn up is the devil.

- You're trying to plan it,

you're trying to make sure
you're doing the right thing,

you're trying to, you
know, and all the while,

you're trying to make
sure you're making

the mothership happy as well.

- Carl obviously, you know,
he's magnetic, attractive guy.

I mean his tattoos are a
problem, but big picture he's-

- You don't like, you
don't like the tattoos?

- They're okay, they're okay.

- If you have issues in your
life, influence, and power,

and position will
exacerbate all of them.

And then we hit New York City,
and the level of pressure,

and the level of visibility,
and the level of responsibility

was so huge, so quick.

(tense music)

I talked to Brian,
floated the idea

that I don't know
if I'm feeling good.

Like I feel like my head
is kind of spinning,

and I'm tired, and I don't
know how long I can do this,

services like this.

I think I did seven
today, and he goes,

"When I was your
age, I was doing 11."

- And weakness
makes us dig deeper.

The apostle Paul says,

"When I am weak
then I am strong."

- Maybe I internalized
that and just was like,

"If that guy's doing 11 then,

"and doing fricking
basically 10 now,

"I better, I better
up my ante here."

Before you know it, you're
so far in over your head,

that it's a matter of time.

Can we all just give God
three, four seconds of praise?

You can shout, you can
clap, you can move.

(crowd applauds and cheers)

Fill me up again, he
will do it here and now.

(crowd cheers)

Can I get an amen?

Are you grateful that
he saved your life?

(Carl chattering rapidly)

Take a moment and give God
thanks for what he's done.

One of my addictive
patterns was something

that started just as a regular,
you know, prescription drug.

You need to feel the touch
of God, you don't have to...

I was diagnosed with
ADHD super early.

Once I left college, I
was given a prescription,

and I stayed on that
prescription for
the rest of my life.

I started just to take more.

I didn't tell my doctor
I was doing that,

I didn't tell anybody.

If you're sitting on your
hands, I'm preaching to you!

It enables you to
continue to do your job,

and you're just going, and
you're going, and you're going.

I was, you know, doing my
best to wall myself off,

because you don't want
to see what's in here.

(crowd cheers)

How y'all doin' up there?

- [Journalist] Any
sort of drugs mixed

with any sort of
sexual addictions,

mixed with any sort of pressure,

is gonna create a
storm of problems.

(chaotic people chattering)

- In October, 2020,
a Hillsong staffer

informed Hillsong leadership
that they had found

some sort of incriminating
text messages of Carl's.

The messages were to a
woman named Ranin Karim,

and Hillsong leadership
approached Carl about it.

- I just remember
feeling like I,

am I in a alternate
universe right now?

The hardest part of
this was just try not

to look my wife
in the eye, ever.

(Carl sniffs)

(tense music)

- It was October 25th,
I remember that day.

(tense music)

Carl's like, "Hey, can I
talk to you for a second?"

As soon as he shut the
door and I saw his face,

my heart just...

(tense music)

My heart just dropped,
and I was like,

I could tell it was,
it was something big.

I didn't know what he
was gonna say, but,

when he did, my whole
world changed, it crashed.

(tense music)

- It was about one
o'clock in the morning,

and the phone went,
and it was Laura.

- That was hard.

Yeah, it was really hard.

She was very distressed.

- He basically said, "I have
been unfaithful to you."

I was like, "What,
what does that mean?"

Like, "Who is it and
do you love her?"

Like what is, what?

Like it was just unbelievable.

- Being on the other
side of the world,

and not being able to hug her,

(chuckles)

that was just, oh,
devastating as it grieved us.

Yeah.

(tense music)

- I thought about my kids.

That was my first thought.

Then it was so stupid,

but I thought about our
church and our staff.

(light music)

- I, I just, I...

There are some things
that you can recover from.

There's other things

that I'll never recover from.

Just the sound of her voice,
the kind of cry that she had

was like no other
cry I've ever heard.

You know, nobody
should go through that,

especially a wife that
is flawless in character.

(light music)

And I told her the best
I could at that time,

and at that time I
wasn't even fully honest,

'cause I didn't even know
how deep it ran in me.

- Carl is a person
that doesn't know

how to get a no for an answer.

- [Reporter] Do you
believe that you were

the first person he ever did
something like this with?

- I honestly don't
know at this point.

- I told Laura.

She wasn't mad, she was
just so broken and...

I don't know, people who have
walked through infidelity

know what I'm talking
about right now,

and it's a dark place to be,

but that's how it went down.

And then we went
home, I called Brian.

I told him.

I remember telling
him I'm in trouble.

You know, I'm not doing,
I'm not doing well.

I'm not doing well.

My mind was so scattered,
and it was ugly.

I remember him
saying, "Okay, okay."

It was short, it wasn't harsh,
or not harsh, or anything.

It was more like I
think I could see

the wheels already
turning for him.

Hillsong leadership told
me we have a Zoom meeting.

It was with some of the
board, it was with Brian,

and they said we're gonna
meet with you and Laura

and talk even more in depth.

At this time, I still think,

"This is my church,
this is my family,"

so I'm like, "What questions
do you need me to answer

"so you can handle
this correctly?"

- On the Zoom call, they
asked Carl about Leona.

At this point I didn't know,

he hadn't told me this part yet.

Leona came into our life
to help me with the kids,

and be our nanny,
and be on staff.

Leona was paid, but she was
really a part of our family.

I knew my kids
were in good hands.

(siren wailing)

- When I graduated
from Hillsong College,

I made a decision to go
help launch Hillsong Boston.

(audience applauding)

Hillsong Boston was being
run by Josh and Leona Kimes,

who have always been a
part of Hillsong Church.

- Let's live loud as a servant,

just like Jesus, Matthew 20:28,

who didn't come to be
served but to serve.

- I ended up moving
to be their nanny.

(train rumbling)

I was Leona's nanny while
Leona was Carl's nanny.

This is a picture
that Lila drew.

It's supposed to be her and
that's supposed to be me.

So while I was
watching her child,

she was watching
over their children.

(children chattering)

- She was always there.

(children chattering)

Leona would be at my
house Christmas day,

Christmas morning opening
presents with my kids,

and I'm like, "Hey,
you can go home.

"You don't need to be here."

"Oh no, no, it's fine,

"and I've got a
babysitter so it's fine."

- I was doing up to 40,
sometimes even 60 hours

during the week for
Hillsong Boston.

I wanted to be a pastor,

but the closest
thing I can get to it

was being a pastor's nanny.

(children chattering)

- You've got someone in
your house all the time,

and I would sometimes get
these little feelings.

And then one night I found them
in a compromising position.

I know I'm seeing something
that is not right.

I ran into the room, and
I shoved Carl and hit him,

and then I jumped on top
of her, and I punched her.

I may have broken
my pinky finger.

Something came over
me, and I was angry,

and I definitely freaked out.

(static buzzing)

She was like, "I'm gonna
leave because I can't be

"around someone who
thinks I did something

"that I did not do."

And then that kind of died down,

you know, never
talked about it again.

She was still in my house
and still was around.

And I'm sure people are
like, "You're insane,"

but it just, I
don't know how to...

We were her pastors,
we were her leaders,

she was on staff, like
it got really messy.

Instead of talking about it,

again I would just
stuff it down,

and like things, I would
definitely be very,

probably too harsh with her.

How's it going, Leona?

- [Leona] What?

Why?

- You offered to do it.

I was in a really
tormented place mentally.

I don't know what's happening
in my house anymore.

I was pretty much gaslit by
both of them for quite a while.

- You have to really
search out his stories,

'cause often they're just,

there's just some
inconsistencies.

(traffic humming)

- On the Zoom call, the
truth came out there

in front of everyone.

Another affair.

So my feelings
about that situation

for a long time
were actually true.

And I had to move
off of the screen,

because I was devastated.

Like out of everything
that I've had to deal with,

I've had to process that
situation probably the most.

(tense music)

- I was way too vulnerable in
that meeting, and I regret it.

I just...

I never thought that anything

from that meeting
would be twisted, ever,

and so I told 'em everything
I could about every situation.

Exactly what had been
going on in my life,

and they thanked me for that,

and that was the last
time I saw 99% of 'em,

when that Zoom call was over.

(tense music)

- A month before this,

and I got a call that my
daughter had to go to the ER,

'cause she had tried to
take a bunch of pills.

(tense music)

When I found out
about the betrayal,

I sent texts and
emails to Bobbie.

My biggest plea was,

if you could just spare the
details as much as possible,

because my daughter is
in a very fragile state.

(message dings softly)

(tense music)

(message dings softly)

(message dings softly)

(message dings softly)

(message dings)

The message back was
that they would try,

and at this point I still
felt like they were family and

that we would be taken
care of and I was safe.

And I learned pretty
quick that that changed.

(tense music)

- [Reporter] In this recording
obtained by the Daily Mail,

Brian Houston allegedly
revealing a timeline

of improper behavior by Lentz.

- I had no idea ever, ever,

that somebody would use
confidential information

like that in that way.

- Speaking to our
staff about things

that Carl had said privately
and I had said privately.

- And it was leaked literally
directly to the Daily Mail.

- We were fired.

Oh, resigned, sorry.

It just felt like I was fired,

because it wasn't
really an option.

- There was a, you know,
a story or a narrative

that she, you
know, had resigned,

which is true but she
was told to resign.

- There's children involved,

and to say such nasty things,
it was really damaging.

- My head began to kinda
lose the few screws

it had left in it.

I thought about just
ways to get out of this,

to cause the least
amount of damage,

knowing that there
was no way out,

and definitely thought
about vacating the planet.

- What's my life now?

What am, like what
else can I do?

I'd lost everything.

(somber music)

- October of 2018, I got really,

really sick while at service,

and I didn't have
insurance in Massachusetts.

My friends at church took
me to the bus station,

so I can take a bus
from Boston to New York,

just so I can go to the
hospital and get checked.

I was still in this
mindset, I need to serve,

that I was sick in
bed in New York,

and still doing administrative
work for Hillsong Boston.

And then the day
after Thanksgiving,

I got a text message from Josh.

That text was basically
him letting me go

from my volunteer positions,

as if everything I
did meant nothing,

and I fell into a
very bad depression.

I felt so alone, and I
had no one to turn to.

(soft tense music)

- You know, church can
be a phenomenal blessing

in people's lives, or it can
be a sledgehammer of pain.

For a long time I defended
everybody, I defended Brian,

and it took me a while to
get out of that head space,

and realize probably
some unhealthy mindsets

that I was intertwined with.

I'm tired of this damage,
I'm tired of this wreckage,

I'm tired of putting
people I love through pain.

The decisions that I made,

the pain those caused,
the betrayals involved,

I did those things,
those are on me,

I take responsibility for those,

and the rest of my life I'll
be making amends where I can,

and it's also my
job to go figure out

how the hell that happened.

(basketball thumping)

You know, when I really
started unwinding

what happened to me as a child,

you know, it was really,
it was really rough.

I'm able to talk about
it now, you know, barely.

Well I pushed it
down for a long time,

because I didn't
wanna hurt my parents,

and my parents are amazing.

(thunder cracks)

And, you know, it
was a family friend

had sexually abused me.

My brain had kind of shut
off some of that memory,

just stuff you don't
really like to think about,

I don't care how old you are,

you don't want to
go through that.

(tense music)

And I was told
when I was abused,

"Let's not tell
anybody about this.

"This is gonna be our secret.

"You know, protect
that," you know,

and when you're a kid, you
don't really process it,

and you don't realize what
your brain is processing,

and I would learn to
hide stuff for no reason,

from my parents, from people.

I developed a
pattern of secrecy.

(thunder cracks)

I had such deep shame.

My eyes saw things at a young
age I shouldn't have seen.

(basketball thumps)

Gotta get a drink here,
probably take a breath.

I've never really got into
any detail about that.

(soft music)

- After Hillsong news
and Carl Lentz news

had gone quiet for a few months,

Leona Kimes published
an essay on Medium,

where she said that Carl had
been sexually abusing her.

(soft music)

(soft music)

(soft music)

- I am responsible for allowing

an inappropriate relationship
to develop in my house

with someone that worked for us.

Any notion of abuse is
categorically false.

There were mutual adult
decisions made by two people

who lied profusely,
mainly to my wife.

(soft music)

It's an issue,
because I was a boss,

this person was an employee.

I'm responsible for
that power dynamic,

and the management of it, and
the wisdom that goes with it,

and I failed
absolutely miserably.

(soft music)

This is a shepherd's staff.

A real good shepherd would see

that little lambie walking away,

and it would crack its leg,
sometimes even breaking the leg.

You know when you when you
see those beautiful pictures

of Jesus walking in the
hillside with that lambie,

he just broke that thing's leg.

- Spiritual abuse
is where somebody

who's got authority in
your life as a pastor,

as a spiritual
leader of some kind,

is taking advantage of you.

- But a good shepherd would
then take that little lambie

that has a little broken leg,

and it would stay
right by the shepherd.

And as it would grow up,

the shepherd would
never leave it,

and that lamb when it was
tempted to wander the next time,

it would remember that
moment when it got corrected,

and next thing you know,
all that lamb has ever known

is living right next
to the shepherd.

I'm not saying...
- But there's no cost

that justifies
the kind of damage

to the soul that happens

in a spiritually
abusive relationship.

Someone who's acting in
a spiritually abusive way

to their members, to their
staff, to their family,

to whomever it is, they've
disqualified themselves.

- In my heart of hearts,

of course I need to
call someone and say,

"I have disqualified
myself from ministry,

"and y'all need to,
you need to take over."

That's what should
have happened.

I should have done that.

I didn't, I wasn't healthy.

(tense music)

(tense music)

- Part of the
devastation that happens

when these churches fall apart
is people sort of wake up

to their own complicity,

and they see that they
were part of something

that was so toxic
and so damaging.

They're not only
trying to sort of

reconcile it with themselves,

they're trying to reconcile
it with their faith.

(tense music)

(somber instrumental music)

- Whether it's, you
know, LGBTQ issues,

or Black Lives Matter,
Christianity is
always a step behind.

So it's not like Carl Lentz was

in front of anything, right,

as far as the secular world.

You take him out of church,
he's not progressive,

but in the church world,
he seems ahead of his time.

- It's okay if you're in America

to say "Black lives
matter," end of sentence.

It doesn't mean that
other lives don't,

it just means these do, we're
gonna say that sentence.

- Okay, that's good, all right.

- We had a very diverse crew,

you know, very diverse church.

I personally have a
lot of relationships

with non-white people,

and I felt like overall our
church was pretty quiet.

(somber music)

It was less about politics,

it was less about, you know,
this giant conversation.

More about if you're
hurting, we're hurting.

You know, if you're
going through it,

we're gonna go
through it together.

To me it wasn't like
this valiant call,

and people tried to
make it like that,

because after we looked
around, I was like,

but there are a lot of people
who are silent on this,

and that's their
right, no judgment,

but I'm not, I'm not
gonna be silent on it.

(somber music)

- When all these, you know,

murders are happening, and
Black people are being killed,

and nobody is saying anything,

he gets all this acclaim,

just because Christianity
is so, so backwards.

- Black lives matter.

(crowd cheers)

- Here's why I'll say
no, I don't think it was.

We struggled with diversity
as a leadership team.

And, you know, I brought
that up many times,

and I don't think
it was intentional.

I'm not saying that we're
a deeply racist church,

I'm just saying we do
not have a single pastor

on a global level that
is not a white man.

And so that's where
the system failed.

- Megachurches are sending,
you know, 26-year-old white men

to places like Brooklyn to
pastor to minority populations.

Cultural situations that
they don't understand,

or they're not equipped
or trained to exist in.

- You ever been to jail?

Don't raise your hand if
you've been, don't do it.

You gonna stay mad single.

- That becomes
really problematic,

and we had, you know,
a number of occasions

where sources would say to us,

"What Hillsong did
was colonize the city,

"and I don't know if I
want them here anymore."

- One time we did a
conference in Harlem,

and it was a women's conference,

and I remember
mentioning, I'm like,

"Hey, you know, we
can't have a lineup

"of white women in Harlem.

"We shouldn't have it anyway,

"but this is gonna
be a bad look,"

and I was definitely met
with some resistance there.

Oh, here comes Carl
again, he's the race guy.

You know, I remember
being told sternly,

we're not gonna do that.

We're not gonna cater
to what people think,

and we're not gonna
specialize certain races.

I definitely quieted
down a little bit,

'cause I hated that so much.

It's tricky when you run
a church that you control,

but you really don't,

there're gonna be
moments of complication.

(tense music)

- I disconnected emotionally.

I didn't even sing the
worship songs anymore.

I stayed as long as my
daughter Ashley stayed,

and when she said
she had enough,

I said, "Okay, this
is it, let's go."

After we left, Carl came to
visit me in my apartment.

He said, "What did I do wrong?"

And I said, "You
love basketball.

"When you are shooting the ball,

"you go up with the ball,
and then you follow through."

I said, "That's your problem.

"You don't follow through."

And that's when
he started crying.

(tense music)

- To the people who
say I dropped the ball

when it comes to the whole
question of race in church,

and that I didn't do enough,

I would reject that completely.

Funny, I remember we had a
meeting in church one time,

and I gathered some Black
leaders in our church,

and it was a really good
meeting by and large.

And then afterwards,
there was a lot of people

who wanted to say thanks, and
then there were some people

who had, you know,
issues with it.

And that was the night,
you know I heard from,

you know, a woman
of color who said,

"You had a woman up there
who's married to a white man.

"What's she doing up there?"

We had another person
come up to me and say,

"That person you had up there
doesn't represent my culture,

"represents a
different culture,"

and I remember that
night going like,

"Wow, I gotta do what's in my
heart and what's best here,

"because this isn't
gonna be something

"that is gonna
please everybody."

I do find it ironic
that I'm being asked

about those questions
when I feel like

that was one of the things
we did the absolute best.

You know, I feel like we
cut new ground with that.

And is it enough?

I don't know, what is enough?

So for the people who say
that he didn't do enough,

what would be enough?

I would get 100
different answers from
100 different people.

I respect people's opinions.

I have one too.

(dramatic music)

- Hillsong is
planting themselves

in this very progressive city.

They're saying
everybody's welcome here,

and so you just give them
all the benefit of the doubt.

Thinking about
like LGBTQ things,

I knew what the
Christian stance was.

I didn't know what
Hillsong's was.

- I think the heart of our
church at that time was,

we don't wanna upset
the religious apple cart

that could affect
our bottom line,

but we definitely
love all people.

You can't have it both ways.

'Cause if people find
out that, you know,

Hillsong Church is, you know,
affirming to this person,

and if Hillsong, boom, it
could affect our sales here,

so under the radar, yes,
welcome, come one, come all.

Outside, this is
Hillsong Church,

we believe traditional
stuff here.

- B
ecause we have to keep the
main thing the main thing,

and the main thing is Jesus,

and just getting people in here.

But even if Hillsong
Church does have an issue

with gay people, honestly,

that's part of the
deal with Christianity,

and you just kind of know that.

(dramatic music)

- Hillsong New York City never
spoke against homosexuality,

they never spoke against
the gay community.

Well of course your congregation
is filled with homosexuals.

Like, of course we're there.

What we're hearing sounds to
us like you're on our side,

that you're with us, that we,
you're telling us we belong.

Aren't you? Aren't you?

- [Carl] This is
the kind of church

where you come as you are,
not come as you should be.

We love you, we're
glad you're here.

- They're an evangelical,

quasi-fundamentalist
Pentecostal church.

Like of course they
believe these things.

What did you all expect?

(tense music)

- I think Carl, while
a naturally easy person

to peg all these issues on,

is really just, he's
a cog, you know?

I think he's a
pretty important cog,

but the wheel is broken.

Carl is just like
part of the mechanism

that makes the wheel turn.

(tense music)

- Did I ever try
to leave Hillsong?

We were definitely at a place

where we knew our time was up.

I did have some
conversations with Brian,

and, you know, we came to an
agreement that we wouldn't.

But it comes a time where

the most respectful
thing you can do

is to do something different,

and so I think that's where
I was headed for sure.

Rather than be a
contentious player,

you just gotta go
to a different game.

ity pastor

having an affair, to be honest,

felt pretty pedestrian to me.

It happens all of the time.

The more Dan and I
talked about it though,

the more reading we did,

it seemed to me that there
was something else larger

that was happening
at this church.

What was most
shocking about the way

that Brian dealt with
the Carl situation,

was that for years, for decades,

Hillsong had been
giving grace to pastors

who had really messed up.

Sweeping it under the
rug, making it go away.

This was an instance
where we had a pastor

who really messed up, you
know, they got rid of him,

and they did it really publicly.

They did it on TV, they
did it in the newspapers,

they leaked audio.

That is one of the
sort of what we call

the black swans, right?

Like it's the thing
that sticks out,

it doesn't make a lot of sense.

- Historically, people who
have crossed Brian Houston

aren't really heard from
again in a Hillsong context.

That happened to Carl
a couple of years ago,

and it happened to Geoff
Bullock a few decades earlier.

Geoff is one of the
most influential figures

in contemporary Christian music.

In his world, he's like Nirvana.

(birds chirping)
(solemn music)

- I was the initial Creative
Minister at Hillsong.

I was part of the
group of people

that pioneered the church
with Brian Houston.

We went from being, you
know, just an Aussie church,

having a whole lot of fun,
to being more corporatized.

I said to Brian, "Look,
we've worked together

"for these past 12 years.

"You are my family, but
I've gotta tell you,

"we are doing things where
we are pushing all our people

"to the limit."

Brian just said to me,

"It's not your job to
come to senior management

"to represent the
rights of the workers.

"No.

"If they don't like it, tell
them to go to another church

"and we'll find somebody else."

Brian's anger is legendary.

He called it strong leadership.

There was a time when Brian
and I were flying to LA.

Brian loved to have his
business class seat.

His secretary somehow
couldn't get that seat,

so he reduced her to tears.

He just yelled, and
yelled, and yelled.

- There is a God of
Israel who is alive,

and who can overcome every--

- I started to see
the angry Brian,

the Brian that often struggled
with how I did things.

I had to perform the way
he wanted me to perform.

I was struggling with
the intense pressure

on me to be somebody
that I wasn't.

I just couldn't go on.

And I decided I had to leave.

In the space of three months,
I lost all of my friends.

I lost my church family.

My wife left me,
I got ostracized.

Brian wrote a letter to
all the music directors,

saying that they can't
sing any of the new songs

that I would write.

I got a phone call in early
2000's from Nabi Saleh,

one of the senior
elders of Hillsong,

saying, "Look, I'd love
to get together with you,"

and we sat down
and ordered coffee,

and he looked me in
the eyes and he said,

"Geoff, you do know we
tried to destroy you."

And I said to him, "Nabi, why?"

And he said,

"Because we thought you
were gonna bring us down."

(tense music)

- [Reporter] Right now on GMA

with that dramatic
fall from grace

for celebrity pastor Carl Lentz.

- [Reporter] They began what
she calls a consensual affair.

- [Reporter] Is reportedly
now seeking outside help,

following his recent ouster
and marital infidelity.

- After the barrage, there was
a couple months of silence,

and Brian randomly goes on TV
for this terrible interview.

And then he starts
talking about me again.

I remember going like,
"Why is he doing this?"

Like, why does he keep...

He doesn't need to do this.

I was trying to get
my wellbeing back,

and out of the corner my
eye, I'm going, "What?"

Like, this guy's
on TV saying what?

- Carl is Carl, he's
a unique character.

There's a lot of things
I miss about Carl.

But having said that,

there were leadership issues
that I believe included lying,

included what I would call
narcissistic behavior.

- The first rule of power is
don't outshine the master.

You don't show up your boss,

and that's 100%
what Carl had done.

- Carl overtook the brand.

Brian went scorched earth,

just to ruin his chances of
surviving outside of Hillsong.

The rumor is that
Carl was planning

to leave Hillsong anyway.

If he wanted to
start a new church,

Carl would've
taken a hefty chunk

of Hillsong's congregations.

People and money,
mostly the money.

(tense music)

- I think of Carl
Lentz as Lucifer.

He was so beautiful, and he
was growing in power so much,

that he almost thought
he could be Brian,

and he had to be
thrown out of heaven.

- Pastors everywhere,
and in Hillsong church,

deal with things, and depending
on how you get caught,

depending on who you are, that
depends on how we treat it.

- [Reporter] There
are some people

at Hillsong Church
who face scandals,

and those scandals get
swept under the rug.

And then there are other
people who are valuable assets,

or even shining stars, and
they end up getting buried.

- Maybe they just thought that
they had crushed this so much

that, you know, we were just
gonna vanish into thin air,

and to a degree we
did, and we might,

but God reveals what
he wants to reveal.

(journalists chattering)

And that train is not
stopping anytime soon.

- The whole truth.
- The whole truth.

- And nothing but the truth.
- And nothing but the truth.

(engaging jazz music)

- [Carl] The calling is
explosive and we need it.

Don't let the devil rob
you of an opportunity

to have a hand in
the greatest group

of God history has ever seen.

(engaging jazz music)

(engaging jazz music)

The purpose of Jesus
saving your life...

(cameras clicking)

(orchestral music)