Original subtitles

- April 29th, 2012.

That was my first Sunday at Hillsong Church.

I have the date tattooed on me.

7,000 people line up to attend

one of seven services offered each Sunday.

A church frequented by celebrities

like Justin and Hailey Bieber.

Basketball stars.

Chandler, they need to go!

Selena Gomez, and Kendall and Kylie Jenner.

When I found Hillsong Church,

it felt like I belonged somewhere.

It's not just church like it's an experience.

Hillsong is a megachurch.

150,000 people go there every week.

- It's very, very dark.

There's no windows, no stained glass windows,

no piano, no organ.

- There's like young people. Everyone looks hip.

Big band on stage.

- Everyone's clapping.

"Who's excited to be at church today?"

- It was just... I felt magical.

- And then Carl comes out on stage.

His messages were...

I mean, they were kind of really beautifully crafted.

- I love you. It's good to see you in church.

Just so you know, you're dealing with depression.

So I want you to call me.

I want you to call me if you need me,

'cause I'm not gonna leave you high and dry.

Till the day we get it right, I'm with you.

I got your back.

He repeatedly hits these crescendos.

- I want some new problems.

- "I want new problems."

And it is true that there were problems.

But they weren't the ones

that he was talking about on stage.

Carl Lentz.

Carl Lentz.

Carl Lentz, the, quote, "celebrity pastor,"

whose recent downfall has triggered a wave of scandals

for the church-

- He was fired from the wildly popular

Hillsong church for what the church described

as "moral failures."

- As the story unraveled, it made us question

why Carl was fired in such a spectacular way.

- It's like Watergate. The coverup was worse than the crime.

Spiritual advisor to Justin Bieber.

This man's a fool. He's a charlatan.

It's pitiful.

All came crashing down

when Lentz admitted to an affair.

- He went from golden boy to shit string in like 33 seconds.

Carl Lentz is working on damage control.

- I think if a story was just about Carl cheating,

we probably wouldn't be sitting here today.

The firing of Lentz in New York

opened the floodgates for Hillsong.

Carl was problematic,

but there were like larger forces at work here.

This was a cultural problem.

The whole truth.

- The whole truth.

And nothing but the truth.'

- And nothing but the truth.

The most un-Christian behavior imaginable.

- It's child abuse, it's labor abuse, it's sexual assault.

We certainly knew that they were

the very serious allegations.

There was more than one victim.

They knew this was going to be a PR disaster.

Mean, this is a church we're talking about.

And then Carl just disappeared.

We reached out and have no comment from Carl

and Hillsong Church.

But I mean Carl's flock,

the people in his church

who really depended on him, they felt deserted.

They were adrift.

♪ I hope you find some peace of mind ♪

♪ In this lifetime ♪

♪ I hope you find some paradise ♪

Well, I'm sick of seeing people who are amazing

wreck their lives over something

that could have been stopped.

That's why you have to do everything in your life tonight.

- I've been a journalist,

primarily an investigative journalist for about 15 years.

Protect your identity. Protect your sexual-

- I love it when you work on a story

and the story that you're assigned first

isn't actually the one that you end up following.

Tonight, you are here, because God-

- And I think that that's what happened to Dan and I.

- I started reporting on Hillsong when Carl Lentz got fired.

My editor, Matt Lynch texted me one night saying,

"We should take a closer look at all of this."

At first, it was a celebrity scandal,

and then quickly it became a scandal

having to do with the church itself.

- I've never seen anything like this.

I mean it's just this thing that is splitting apart,

and it's crazy to me

that the sort of the first shoe was Carl.

- I was raised traditional Catholic.

It was just a lot of Hail Marys and a lot of Our Father's.

I always felt like it was my family's faith

and it always just passed along to me.

But when I found Hillsong Church,

I'm looking around this place

and there's people that look like me and that are my age.

And then Carl Lentz walks on stage and I'm like,

"Who is this?

This cannot be the pastor."

- Remember, we didn't know when we moved into this condo

that to the left of our condo was one drug dealing community

and to the right was another drug dealing community.

Found out one day, because as I was sitting there

at about two o'clock on a Saturday

playing "Call of Duty" as a grown man,

which is always God's will,

with my baby girl Ava who's asleep at the time upstairs

and I heard a loud pop,

15, 16, 17 pops, unmistakable gunfire.

And we did what all strong men do,

immediately screamed and hid under the couch.

And there was a moment where there's about four detectives

looking at our house and they're sitting there

and I came over, I said, "Sir,

what are you guys looking at?"

And they're like, "We just can't believe

that there is not one bullet hole

in the second floor of your house.

'Cause from where he was shooting from,

you should have not just one or two,

but you should have all kinds of bullet holes.

Is there anybody up there?"

I'm like, "Yeah, my daughter's up there.

My daughter, she's sleeping up there."

And I just thought, man, this is crazy.

And then my old neighbor, about 70-some-years-old,

comes out in just a tank top and some underwear

and some crocs, he's like, "Oh you know, that's a Christian.

He a man of God. Ain't nothing ever gonna touch that house.

That's what happened there."

So I tell you what, I don't think it's because I'm a pastor.

I don't think it's because I'm a man of God.

But I do think that you can rest a little bit easier tonight

knowing that God is protecting you

from things you have not seen yet.

He is protecting you from forces

that you cannot fight on your own.

This is our God.

Come on, somebody if you believe in him-

Felt like he was preaching just to me.

- We're leaving with this tonight.

And-

- Just remember this.

- It was life-changing.

- It overflows.

- Like, I'm lost and now I'm found.

- Carl's primary gift, I think, just in life is charm.

He has a way of seeming fairy genuine.

- Something's going on with him.

Oh yeah, he goes and he listens to your speeches.

I think he's an amazing actor.

- I felt awkward when I first started going to Hillsong.

In fact, I didn't want to go.

Ashley forced me to go. Ashley's my daughter.

- Alright, you gonna say grace?

- Yes. - Okay.

I was like, "You should come."

And she's like, "Absolutely not."

- That was the oldest person there.

- I think she liked knowing that I felt so connected to it,

and she started coming to the services and, you know,

she was a superstar.

- Would you like to know how I met Carl?

I was leaving church down the back stairway,

and Carl and Laura were coming downstairs and I said,

"Oh, Pastor Carl,

I was hoping I'd get to meet you. I'm Mary Jones."

He said, "Oh, I know who you are.

I've been dying to meet you.

So I'm glad that my wife and I get to meet you."

- When you talk to Carl,

if you got a chance to talk to Carl,

I don't know, you felt so special.

- I became known in church as Mama Jones.

I felt that inside of Carl, there's something good.

I don't know that there was a sermon that he ever preached

that he didn't cry.

- I love you. I refuse to cry tonight.

- But I'm gonna say this,

I think Carl could cry on cue.

He held the microphone, he'll go.

And I know I'm not making the right face, but

if he sees this,

he's probably gonna hate me for saying this.

But it was funny. I mean-

- Great sermon. You don't have to be a superstar.

- It really touched me when he would do that.

- Grateful that Jesus saved your life. Anybody?

Anybody? Anybody?

Don't show this, Byron. This is fake.

Carl Lentz has

this very specific type of confidence.

Oh like yo, he gets it.

♪ This right here is my swag ♪

♪ All the girls are on me ♪

- So the first time I actually met Carl,

I don't remember what he said, but like,

Carl Lentz is just so charming.

- All the single people, give me a quick wave.

♪ Pretty boy swag ♪

♪ Pretty boy swag ♪

- Oh. Okay, I get it.

I would follow this guy anywhere.

A largely young crowd

of 7,000 people each Sunday.

- He was mobbed by the congregants in the same way

any other celebrity would be.

♪ Pretty boy swag ♪

♪ Pretty boy swag ♪

The 35 year old husband and father

is not your average pastor.

He was this tall, handsome statuesque guy

really into fashion, and he wore this Yves Saint Laurent

black leather jacket.

Covered in tattoos, tight black jeans with-

- Very deep V-neck shirts,

like I mean the deepest V you've ever seen in your life

of anybody who's not at a gym.

Hold up, let's see what's going on with his shorts.

So he was really something to look at.

You keep your eyes on Jesus.

- There is a sense that pastors not only can be cool,

but can be attractive like hot.

- My wife Laura Lentz is here with me.

She's amazing.

I refuse to cry tonight. That's my goal.

But I will say that the love of my life you are.

We have three children, three products of passion

and we pastor Hillsong New York City.

Carl and Laura

are the husband and wife pastoral team.

All of these preachers, you know, they get married young

because your pastor needs to be married.

- Again, achurch is supposed to be a reflection of family.

You never want to get caught having a church that's good,

but your family's kind of dying.

If we take care of our marriage and our family,

church will take care of himself.

Your brother told me the first day...

So we don't have a lot of room

to not practice what we preach.

- A small card from Laura,

"I saw you worshiping in church tonight

and was just overwhelmed and thankful

that you are part of what we are building here.

Carl and I appreciate you.

Have a blessed week. Love, Laura Lentz."

That is,

that is the gold in the garbage here, so.

Yeah.

- Laura, she was like the mother of the church.

She didn't have like, you know,

the stage magnetism that Carl had,

but I think she believed in his mission

in a rather selfless way,

as if she had an understanding of Carl belongs to the world.

At Hillsong it was an ensemble cast built around the star.

Carl was the star.

- There would be no Hillsong New York without Carl Lentz.

- I love you, Brian and Bobbie Houston.

I'm gonna take a moment and make this awkward,

because I represent a lot of people that really love you

and forget about the church that you have, the family,

and the marriage, and who you are outside of the platform.

That in and of itself could be its own movie.

Can you stand to your feet and give Brian and Bobbie Houston

a huge hand tonight?

- I thought Carl was Hillsong.

As we started digging in, it did take a minute to understand

that there was this monolithic leader behind Carl Lentz.

Thank you, Bishop,

the Big Eagle and the Mother Dove.

That's Brian Houston.

- Well, I'm Brian Houston.

- And I'm Bobbi Houston.

Brian and his wife Bobbie founded Hillsong in 1983

in the suburbs of Sydney.

- I don't think I realized

in learning about Hillsong New York

that it was actually part of this global church movement

that started in Australia.

- Hillsong presents itself on the outside

as this progressive idea or a progressive belief set.

- Jesus Christ.

But Brian Houston is a conservative guy.

- And worship and so on is very contemporary.

But if you like our theology, it's very conservative.

His core beliefs are rooted

in old-school Pentecostalism.

- Pentecostalism is a global evangelical movement.

Pentecostalism is marked by demonstrations of the spirit,

things like speaking in tongue-

Receiving messages from God directly.

Dreams and visions.

- Snake and horrible things, people's faces.

Healings, physical healings.

- In the name of Jesus!

Just gonna stop with you for a few secs.

There's a fly.

- Oh! That's not great.

No, no. You got this.

- Actually, the Pentecostals would say this is demonic.

Oh, really?

This is a distraction.

Sorry.

- Pentecostals, they're a little extreme.

There is often also a political dimension.

Lots of mobilization around traditional family values.

The pro-life cause,

against, you know, LGBT rights and equality.

- God who created marriage said marriages should be

between a man and a woman in a lifetime relationship.

- One elephant in the rooms

for the church all around the world right now

is the gay situation.

Leading up into the 2016 election,

81% of white evangelicals who voted for Donald Trump.

- Well, what an honor to be stranded in the White House

and to have just had the chance to pray for President Trump.

- Was this about following Christ

and living out his teachings

or was this about consolidating power?

- Hillsong is a Pentecostal church.

Most people probably wouldn't know that,

might be surprised to find out.

When I was there it was very kind of undercover.

They do have services where,

where they do speak in tongues and do pray over people.

- Speaking of the tongues as the spirit gives you utterance.

And we should be open to the speaking in other tongues.

- And I think the more Hillsong has wanted

to be more mainstream and seem cool,

like I think that's one of the things

that quickly kind of got shoved to the side.

- Can I get a Pentecostal amen through the screen?

Back to the message.

It was Hillsong's first American location.

- New York isn't necessarily the first place you would think

to plant a new Pentecostal church.

- New York was known as a place where churches come to die.

- If they wanted to bring their spin on Christianity

to new audiences, to the center of media attention,

there really couldn't be a better place

than New York to do it.

- It was cool, it was hip and, you know,

New York loves like the new hip thing.

Carl appeared on platforms where the church

would have an opportunity to appeal to a younger audience.

- Especially in New York,

we've dealt with the whole generation of people

that have run from church just 'cause it's been scary,

it's been weird, it's been like rules.

And when you meet Jesus, we believe,

it's not you have to, it's a you get to.

- When I started at Hillsong New York City,

I was a volunteer.

Obviously I wasn't paid but everybody was so happy

to pitch in whatever they needed to all the time

in any kind of way.

- Irving Plaza where we met is a nightclub,

and you know, we would get in there early in the morning

and it would just be sticky with beer all over the floor.

The smells were very exciting smells.

- Carl would always say "Church in the wild,

church in the wild is what we're doing."

As a volunteer meet, clean up vomit or, you know,

weed in the garbage or whatever.

Nobody cared at all because it was such an adventure

and it was such a privilege to be a part of it.

- We were on the cusp of doing something

that hadn't been done before.

We were planting a Hillsong Church in New York City.

- Our church is a year and a couple months old

and will you promise me you'll pray

for Hillsong Church New York City?

Oh, nine of you. Great.

That makes me feel better. All I needed was one.

- There was so much potential for what it was gonna be.

We happen to have Joel and Carl.

- Tell us what's going on, what's happening in New York.

- Where do you wanna start?

- Sounded like an impossible thing to do.

Which had our name all over.

- Carl and Joel Houston, who's Brian Houston's son,

started Hillsong New York together.

That was sort of the dream that they had had

since they were college students together in Australia.

And that was when Carl first caught Brian's eye

as sort of a golden boy or a protege.

He found in Carl a world-class talent as far as preaching.

- Joel Houston is one of the great

Christian singer-songwriters of all time.

So Joel had the music and Carl did the preaching

and together they were an unstoppable force.

- Hillsong music, that's actually

a lot of people gateway drug into Hillsong.

It's phenomenal, it's beautiful, it's emotional.

- In fact, a lot of people knew about Hillsong's music

before they knew that Hillsong was a church.

- My mom started taking the piano recitals

when I was in second grade, and I've actually did listen

to Hillsong as a kid.

When I enlisted at 17 in the Army,

I did deploy to Iraq and I got medically discharged

dealing with the aftermath of a lot of that.

Like, I wasn't doing well for a while.

- I was so hurt from a breakup.

I get on the train and my heart just like,

oh, it cried out,

"Man, I wish I was in church this morning."

And then I get off the train and I have a Facebook message.

A friend of mine said,

"I don't know if you found a church here in New York

but I think you should come to this place

that I've been going to.

I think you'll really like it.

It's called Hillsong."

I walked in and the music was playing, and that was it.

I was done. What do you need me to do?

I need to be a part of whatever is happening here.

They're singing about hope,

they're singing about perseverance, and it was so special.

- Go into a service,

feel like I found some like purpose in my life.

I love this.

♪ Only God knows when the beast was feeding ♪

♪ Taking from our mouths when we ain't eating ♪

♪ Only God knows ♪

♪ Only God knows ♪

♪ Only God knows ♪

- Church can be an incredibly positive experience.

It gives us community, it gives us support.

We were not called to do this life alone.

- When I had got to Hillsong New York,

I was only there for a few months

and I ended up finding myself on stage

playing it with Carl Lentz.

- There were cars that would say like,

"Hey would you like to volunteer?"

I had written down that I was a singer.

That Sunday I auditioned.

The next Sunday I sang on stage.

Each week something like 50 million people

are singing Hillsong worship songs.

So what's happening on stage in New York

and what's being presented on social media in New York

is really happening all across the globe.

These albums are always charting.

They were reaching like the non-Christian music charts.

"What a Beautiful Name" won a Grammy.

- This is an absolutely incredible honor.

- I did have this moment of like,

I'm gonna change the trajectory of my life.

- I was just all Hillsong now.

♪ What a powerful Name it is ♪

♪ What a powerful Name it is ♪

♪ Jesus ♪

- Instagram officially launched on October 6th, 2010.

Hillsong New York officially launched on October 17th, 2010.

So Instagram and influencer culture

was always in the water with Hillsong New York.

Added to this was the fact

that their headquarters were based in Williamsburg,

the epicenter of the 2010s hipster movement.

- Carl's inner circle lived at a building in Williamsburg,

184 Kent, and that became known as The Compound,

and that was where the pastors partied.

It was where they hung out.

- Welcome to the partey.

- People like Carl Lentz saw Instagram

as a way to advertise a cool Christian faith.

From the Crystal Cathedral

in Garden Grove, California.

So just as pastors and ministry leaders

in the '70s and '80s really embraced television.

Hi, Tammy Faye.

Hi, Jim Bakker.

Instagram has the power

to reach an international audience.

Is Carl accumulated more and more followers-

- Jesus didn't have a Snapchat.

His cultural cache grew and he was able to mix

with athletes, celebrities, musicians.

- I just wanna love Carl more.

- You're doing a good job with that.

You went to Hillsong?

- Yes. - Our friend Carl Lentz,

who we love.

- I felt very empowered when I walked out.

How great is this?

- He pioneered celebrity pastor culture

for this generation.

I think he's the first sort of hype priest.

- Lots of Carl mini-mes, everyone looked up to him,

some people idolized him.

- You are our hero.

I mean, look at this guy. Carl Lentz, folks.

- In 2014 there was probably what was the trademark moment

of Carl's reign which is when he baptized Justin Bieber

in the basketball player Tyson Chandler's bathtub.

♪ Mount Everest ain't got shit on me ♪

He was going through it.

He was like I wanna start fresh.

- So I reached out to...

Some people I really know care about me

and who happened to be in the church,

stayed with their family for a couple months

and literally just did regular stuff,

ate dinner with them,

and it just brought this sense of humbleness.

And the way he lives his life is really what he talks about.

Like when I go to his home, I feel really loved.

♪ 'Cause I'm on top of the world ♪

♪ I'm on top of the world ♪

- He was being followed by a million paparazzi people

and I finally called my buddy, Tyson Chandler.

I said, "I'm with Justin, we want to baptize him."

And he's like, "Come and use my bathtub,

'cause it's especially made for a seven footer.

And it's two o'clock in the morning?

- It's two o'clock in the morning.

You don't just dip your toe in it.

You know, God's grace covers your entire body.

Nick established Carl as a cultural force,

and it created kind of a feedback loop.

- Mama-

- Hi, Kathy!

- Met Oprah.

- For Carl, his fame became

not just sort of anthropological oddity,

but the thing itself.

And it gave power against the sense,

if these big stars were attracted to Carl

and everything he was offering, why wouldn't I be too?

- Just started our 9:00 PM service

and it's packed to capacity,

turned away hundreds of people at 9:00 PM.

We call our 11:00 AM the early bird service in New York.

It wasn't just a thing of like it's growing

because people are inviting people.

It's growing also because there's a line down the street

and there's a velvet rope.

- Reaching people with the gospel message is growth.

So what happens when growth

becomes the primary goal?

- Hey, Kansas City, I am so excited

because this weekend we are launching Hillsong Church.

♪ Mount Everest ain't got shit on me ♪

You've got 150,000 people

going to Hillsong services every week in like 30 countries,

and all those people are giving money.

- Tithing is giving 10% of your income to the church.

There were also like certain services

where it was tithing above and beyond.

So you would look at your bank account and say,

"You know what, God, I wanna present Hillsong church

with this amount."

- So right now, as always, we're gonna receive our giving

shows you on the screen the various ways

people like to give, Bobbie...

I would have no idea how much any individuals

given church and no one gets treated any different

whether they do or they don't.

- Brian Houston and Hillsong

introduced different levels of worshipers.

You know there was a VIP center,

and if you donated a certain amount of money

as a kingdom builder

you could get to have coffee with Brian,

which starts to sound like a pyramid selling scheme.

- Hillsong and money is like a little bit of a broken record

for a lot of people because it's, you know,

so inaccurate on so many levels.

- The money, from my understanding, was counted and then...

I don't know.

Brian's finances are incredibly opaque.

It was reported that the Houstons had access

to a million dollar church paid expense account,

that included luxury cars

as well as solely funded overseas tours

where Brian would earn up to $20,000 per speech.

- There's probably more than 20 Hillsong entities,

you know, an entity for Hillsong College,

an entity for a music composition, cafes,

and you don't have any visibility really

of the flow of money between those entities.

They benefit from tax deductibility status.

So tens and tens of millions of dollars a year

flowing in largely untaxed.

They're able to sort of have it both ways.

They're able to avoid the oversight

that secular industries might be more accustomed to.

On the other hand, Hillsong is in many ways

playing the same game as those secular industries.

They're competing in the same spaces,

appearing on the same charts.

- Yes, it's a church, but it looks like a corporation.

It acts like a corporation.

When it gets into trouble it hires lawyers

who do damage control.

This is a 30-year brand and successful.

- And I think it's a matter for congregants.

What are you okay with?

Like are you okay with your church

functioning as a business?

Because the system benefits those

who are running the system,

but the services, you know, the day-to-day,

those are actually run by unpaid volunteers.

Every church functions because of volunteerism,

but here it is a matter of keeping overhead down

to maximize profit.

- Megachurches are generally defined as a church over 2,000.

They really became a cultural phenomenon in the mid-1990s.

The church as a whole is built around

a very capitalist model of get money, get property, expand.

How big can we get?

How many sites can we get?

How many souls can we win?

We were so determined to figure out if we could do it,

we never stopped to ask if we should.

- Early days you might see 30, 40 volunteers

making things work.

Once it started to grow where we are doing six services,

you have to have at least like a thousand people

doing those things each day.

- So it's your job to come to church again, volunteer again,

start loving people again.

Come on, somebody, if you hear me right now.

- Broadly speaking, there have been two groups

of Hillsong volunteers.

The group that's very happy,

they don't have to do that much work

and they were enjoying the spoils of all the success.

And then there was another group of Hillsong volunteers

who felt bad.

They were being exploited.

They felt that they were working long hours for no pay,

no real chance of advancement,

and that this was all being done in the name of a spectacle

that was not really for them.

- Hillsong culture is loyalty to Hillsong.

You are a small part of the big thing

God is doing on the earth,

and what an honor.

Can you believe we get to do this?

- They would always say that,

"Can you believe we get to do this?"

And it was this way of sort of getting people to be like,

"This is so cool. This is awesome."

And the first project I actually worked on,

I was in the studio for about three weeks.

We'd be in there sometimes more than 12 hours a day.

And it was like a day rate of like $180.

Maybe a little less than that.

- Hillsong musicians are some of the foremost ambassadors

of the church.

They're also some of the laborers who are working

under the most grueling conditions,

because of the touring schedule

and the need for more and more and more music.

At the same time, the people who are actually performing

some of the church's biggest hits

aren't really seeing any of the money from it.

- There were many times,

especially when the work wasn't frequent,

that it would get really scary.

I got into a lot of like credit debt.

Trying to rationalize that now is hard,

but I can remember then I felt so lucky.

- You need your systems in place

to meet the needs of the people who are in your community.

And I think where it gets tricky is when the expansion

is going faster than the ability to still show compassion,

to still meet needs.

- I think I had a really good relationship with Carl.

I know he respected me.

I could talk to him about problems,

you know the bubbles every like that long on my phone.

There were volunteers that were coming in

and doing all of this work and they're doing it for free.

Some people, they could not work full-time jobs

with the schedules that we had.

They are trying to live in New York City

with the astronomical rents.

Don't know when they're going to eat

or what they're going to eat

or they got an eviction notice they're facing.

They were coming to me and asking can I get them help?

Is there any way that they can find, they can get help?

The head of pastoral care said to me,

it's illegal for the church

to give people lump sums of money.

I said, "No it's not.

The church helps its people

and people outside of the church.

Come on."

It broke my heart.

And what are you doing this conference?

Hanging out? - Yeah, we've been hanging.

- Wearing supreme sweaters.

- Just wearing sweaters.

- Just living the dream.

You've been living the dream, honestly, right?

Through you to be put

on the lives of people around and about you than-

- Hillsong tried to create this image of a lifestyle

and of sex appeal and of this charisma

that really has nothing to do with church

and makes a lot of their quite reactionary social views

much more palatable.

They essentially created a Trojan horse.

- I was always trying to resolve during my reporting

what's progressive and where the conservative strains

of Christianity fit into this equation.

I always wanted to know where they really stood

on gay marriage, where they stood on things like abortion,

and I got crafted answers.

Please welcome Pastor Carl Lentz.

- I wanted to say, before we even get started,

you really don't look like any pastor that I've ever seen.

- We just kind of try to be ourselves at all times.

- Hillsong is seen as a this hip progressive church

that's drawn huge Millennial crowds,

but it's still evangelical.

- I mean do you guys have positions

on, say, gay marriage and things like that?

- We have a stance on love.

In everything else we have conversations.

We have a stance on love

and we have conversations about everything else.

- So what does that mean?

- Exactly that.

I think our job is still to help people

not necessarily change how they think.

We're not trying to change anybody 'cause we can't.

- I had a really unusual upbringing.

My dad is a traveling evangelical pastor.

We would travel around the country

and go to different churches for two weeks at a time.

Hurray! Hallelujah!

- When my dad would deliver his sermon,

he would say that homosexuality is equal to murder.

Probably towards high school

is when I started to like figure out I was gay.

In the name of - Jesus Christ.

- I was living a very confusing life.

That's one reason that I was so drawn to Hillsong.

Hillsong's biggest tagline is welcome home.

That's what you'll see everywhere.

You'll see it on banners, you'll see it outside.

They want you to feel a part of something,

and it hits things that make you feel like you're seen.

I started dating a guy and we went to Hillsong together,

and I didn't hide it.

I was in a leadership position as a frontline singer

singing on stage as one of the faces

of Hillsong New York City.

We would often be sitting on like the second row together,

'cause I would sing and then I would come down

and just sit with him.

Hi, I'm Josh and this is my boyfriend.

- Reed.

- In early 2014, I had the exciting opportunity

to go on CBS' "Survivor."

I went to Pastor Carl before I went on the show

and I said, "Hey, I just need you to know

that I'm going on 'Survivor' and I'm gonna be like honest.

I really want to be open about the church.

I wanna be open about who I am and I just wanna make sure

that you're okay with me saying Hillsong."

And he was like, "Absolutely, of course,

say whatever you need to say.

Like you need to be yourself."

That gave me the impression that I was still welcome

and I was still at home and I was still safe.

A gay couple Christians saving themselves,

adored by their church.

- And so I felt really good.

And then, Brian Houston decides to release a statement.

"Hillsong does not agree with the gay lifestyle

and Hillsong New York does not have a gay choir director

that has a boyfriend."

Pastor Brian Houston says that I don't exist.

- Why don't you agree with same sex marriage?

- Oh, I think the Bible is clear.

And so ultimately we are dependent on the Word of God,

which is scriptures.

- It's not that we're against anything,

it's what we're for what the Bible says.

- But I guess my question is,

in your opinion is marriage only between a man and a woman?

- We would say the Bible is really clear

that marriage is between a man and a woman.

And I believe the Bible says what it says

and I interpret it exactly as the Bible says.

- The Bible deals with the issue of sexual activity,

but it doesn't have a category

for what we call sexual orientation from birth.

The bigger question we need to keep in mind is can we expect

a text that was written so long ago in specific context

to address every issue today?

No, we can't expect this.

We can't make the Bible into a gay rights advocate book,

because that isn't the framework of the ancient writers.

The same goes for making the Bible an anti-gay rights book.

The truth is theology is never based simply

on what the text says.

Texts don't speak, they always have to be interpreted.

- On the outside Hillsong looks super progressive,

but then as you look underneath it,

at the heart of Hillsong global

are really super conservative white men

and that's not what they believe.

At the heart of it, it is come as you are

and then we'll change you.

Ice, no peace!

No justice, no peace!

No justice, no peace!

You know, it's been growing unrest.

No justice, no peace!

No justice, no peace!

- Trump is rising and evangelicals are supporting him.

But Carl is also rising and being known

as the pastor who will say Black lives matter.

- It's for me, I believe that Black lives matter.

That's what I say.

There is a portion of our community that is frustrated

and they are suffering and they are hurting.

Of course, all lives matter,

but it's okay to say Black lives matter.

What's wrong with you?

- You have been very vocal against racism in this country,

and while many Christian leaders in my view

really stayed silent,

did you worry about losing parishioners?

And also, did you get a lot of pushback for that?

- Yeah. Yes.

Yes and yes. We have an issue.

And some of that stuff needs to be said upfront,

out loud no matter what you believe,

no matter what your background.

Carl positioned himself, however accurately,

as on the cutting edge of race and evangelical Christianity.

- Churches might be one of the biggest propagators

of racist ideology in our country.

- But as Black people in his church

we're just not represented.

- One of the things Hillsong's so known for in New York City

was how diverse the church was.

So from the platform you would look out and I was like,

man, this is so beautiful.

Like there are so many different people of color here.

Like it's incredible.

And then if you reverse it,

you look at the platform and you're like,

the platform does not represent the people

in this congregation.

- And Carl realized that,

"Hey, we need to have a meeting about this."

- This was just our chance to sit down with them

and like kind of face to face airing of grievances.

- So people went around and we told them how we felt.

- You know we get into this conversation

about organic versus intentional and Carl's like-

- One of the guys who's in the meeting

who's a civil rights attorney,

and he just laid it out and he said, you know.

- You could see Carl that the clique went off in his head

and he said-

- I left the meeting just feeling really hopeful.

For the next three to four weeks there were Black people

doing the offering messages,

and then it just kind of tapered off

and then it was no more.

- Carl had other things to do.

He was traveling, he was chaplain of the Knicks team,

he was writing a book,

he was everywhere except at Hillsong NYC.

Nothing was going to happen because it would have taken work

that they were unwilling to do, too busy to do,

uninterested in doing.

It's not the glamorous stuff.

- Being one of the only Black females

at Hillsong Kansas City,

I was included in so much of the marketing material

for a really long time.

There was never like any Black people

like in actual leadership.

That bugged me so much.

I remember having a friend,

another Black female at Hillsong.

She could see like the racial systemic issues

within the church.

But she would raise her hand and be like, "Hey,

like, I see this going on,"

and they just immediately shut her down.

My friend got fired, and I was just like disgusted.

A couple weeks later I went to church

just like a regular Sunday,

but I felt like something was in the air.

Like I just walked in service like normal,

like grabbed a cup of coffee,

said hi to a couple people, and then I hear like,

"Hey Crystal, do you have a moment to talk?"

The lead Pastor Liz literally comes out of nowhere.

"I heard you've been walking around

talking trash about the leadership,

saying you don't trust leadership.

You know if you don't leave,

then we'll have the police escort you out."

- I have an officer coming if that gets to that point.

probably gonna get us involved,

you can be arrested for trespassing.

And if you refuse that,

then we'll have the police arrest you for trespassing.

But they want you to leave

and you need to do that,

'cause they have a legal right to tell you to leave.

- Behind her, people I've known for like five years,

I'm still walking in to service and not even stopping

to like check in.

My belief in church

was probably the first thing to go that day.

- In the fall of 2017,

quite a few friends had been talking about

lots of situations they were encountering at church.

There was widespread issues that we saw

and it was very alarming

and it wasn't being dealt with at all.

Ended up being five friends from different backgrounds

who had been invested in the church for a long time

and who cared deeply.

We felt the responsibility as leaders

to do something about it.

- And so the five of us asked the leadership

to call the people who are causing problems to account.

Dear Hillsong NYC staff.

- When a church is less like a family

and more like an enterprise,

it's leaders act less like pastors and more like commanders.

This puts everyone in danger, the leaders and the people.

- There are verified and widely circulated stories

of inappropriate sexual behavior amongst staff and interns.

- Sweeping of messy situations and problems under the rug.

- And lack of accountability.

We no longer trust the leadership of Hillsong NYC.

- The problems and concerns voiced in this letter-

- Are desperate, last ditch endeavor to address-

- And put out small fires which have now developed

into a massive inferno.

- Into a massive inferno.

Hillsong NYC should not join the list of other churches

and institutions that ignored repeated outcry of victims,

until some horrifying scandal takes them down.

This is deeply personal to us

because this place...

This church in this city was our dream, too.

We are disappointed beyond measure

and fearful of what is ahead

if these issues remain unchecked.

Sincerely, The Five.

- We had a meeting afterwards with Carl and some leaders,

and even though they were saying all the right things

related to how things would be different, and you know,

"we'd look into all of this,"

I just wasn't convinced at all.

I remember distinctly leaving the office thinking,

it's not gonna have the impact that we hoped for.

- Within the year,

I don't believe that there were any of the five left

at Hillsong NYC.

- November, 2020, Brian Houston kind of outta nowhere

announces that he's fired Carl Lentz.

- Carl was fired for what were called,

quote unquote, "moral failings."

In the context of Hillsong, moral failing has been used

as a catchall for,

I mean, I guess you don't know really what,

and that's sort of the point.

But for any sort of indiscretion that has led

to some sort of ouster from the church.

- The next day, Carl has a statement on Instagram

about how he had been untrue in his marriage

and he had been leading from this hollow place.

- There were a few days when Carl's firing

was mostly mysterious, just announced he was leaving

and this photo,

and then the detail started coming very fast.

The celebrity megachurch sex scandal

and his spectacular fall from grace.

Had a relationship outside of his marriage.

A woman who said she had an affair

with Hillsong Church pastor Carl Lentz.

Ranin Karim says, when she met Lentz

five months ago, they began

what she called a consensual affair

in spite of what she thought were red flags,

including him telling her not to google him.

- Ranin Karim, the woman Carl was cheating on Laura with,

started giving interviews to multiple tabloids.

- Like, there's something wrong with your marriage

that you sitting here with me?

- Getting more and more in depth about

the amount of tequila that was involved in their affair,

the nicknames he would use.

Did he tell you he loved you?

- Yes, he did.

- How he would claim to be a sports agent.

- He didn't wanna say what he does.

- And it was just an onslaught.

- I feel bad for her. - I never meant to hurt her.

- Carl's tenure as pastor in New York

was full of contradictions.

He positioned himself as a progressive voice on race.

Later, Black congregants said

that they didn't feel heard within the church.

He worked for a church that preached purity culture,

that banned premarital sex.

Later, we found out that he was having affairs.

- We've read reports of pastors who were sleeping around.

You had pastors who were not living what they were teaching.

- After Carl was fired in this spectacular public way,

Hillsong commissioned an investigation

into its East Coast branches.

In that investigation, there was a claim by a junior staffer

at the New York branch, who said that Reed Bogard,

who was one of the top pastors at Hillsong, had raped her.

- Reed Bogard, who's a part of the foundation

to Hillsong New York and then again in Hillsong LA,

and they have moved to Dallas,

and are starting Hillsong Dallas.

A few months after that investigation,

Bogard resigned from Hillsong Dallas.

- You know, the last 10 years

of being in church planting mode

has really taken a bit of a toll on Jess and I

and our family, and we just really feel

like it's time to transition off of our staff

and take some time to remain healthy, get healthy,

and to really see what this next season holds for us.

At the time when he stepped down,

he made no mention of any of these allegations against him.

Brian Houston also made no mention

of the allegations against Bogard.

He essentially said, "thank you for your service."

- Thank God for Pastor Reed and Jess,

and of course all of our faithful volunteers and team there.

The devil's press strategies are not gonna win.

His weapons will not prosper.

Bobbie and I are proud of you and we love you,

and we believe in God's best for you.

- A lot like Carl, Reed had been handpicked by Brian.

When you see it over and over again,

it's not just Carl and it's not just Reed Bogard.

It's like the person at the top.

Like you have to look at that person.

Brian even says it, you catch the culture in Sydney,

you go to Sydney, you go to Hillsong College,

and you are indoctrinated into this,

the system of, you know, violation, abuse and coverup.

It's just how the place works.

There was an entrenched cultural narrative

around Hillsong that was really hard to pierce.

I don't think it was until that was sort of punctured

by Carl cheating that there was really an opportunity

to look what was actually happening

in the church on a day-to-day basis.

Carl was problematic,

but there was also a concerted effort

to paint him as the one bad apple,

the problem at the root of all of Hillsong's problems.

The final nail in the coffin was Brian on the "Today Show."

- Carl was Carl. He's unique character.

There's a lot of things I miss about Carl,

but having said that, there were leadership issues

it included lying,

included what I would call narcissistic behavior.

In my mind, if one person is treated badly,

that's one too many.

I don't think Carl really is anything like me.

My job initially was to write about

what was gonna happen with this mega superstar pastor.

- He was like, he is good. He was good yesterday.

He's good now. He's gonna be good tomorrow.

And then Carl just disappeared.

One minute Carl was everywhere.

The next, he was gone.

We reached out and have no comment from Carl,

Laura and Hillsong Church.

This is Carl Lentz interview, take one.

ABV common mark.

- Cool. - Whenever you're ready.

So whenever you're ready, Carl, just introduce yourself,

your connection to Hillsong

and why you're sitting in the interview today.

- Yeah.

I really don't wanna mess up my TV makeup,

ah, at all.

Right here.

- Okay. Yeah.

Okay.

Sorry. Let's just-

- Take a breath.

- I'm good, yeah.

I'm so nervous about how this is gonna be portrayed,

but I cannot control that.

So God, grant me the serenity

to accept the documentary things I cannot change

and the courage to change the things that I can,

and the wisdom to know the difference.

You do not want to be in this chair.

I cannot stress it enough.

If you believe right, you will stay right.

If you stay right, you will walk right.

Put your hand up, rededicate your life to him.

Christians, praise.

Anybody else and you are disconnected from God,

and you are sick of it.