Original subtitles

(ominous orchestral music)

(ominous orchestral music continues)

- The Book of Revelations talked about the Second Coming.

- Jesus is coming. (slow orchestral music)

- [Congregation] Amen.

- There are a bunch of predictions

about what would happen before the end of the world,

and the imminent return of Jesus.

- [Speaker] What will be the sign

when this is about to take place?

- In a weird way,

a lot of them have paralleled recent history,

natural disasters. (wind whistles)

- [Reporter] Explosive wildfire.

- [Reporter] The worst flooding in a decade.

- [Lech] Pandemics.

- [Reporter] 73,000 cases a day.

- [Lech] Wars, famines.

It has directly fed into a lot

of Brian Houston's prophecies.

- [Speaker] "And before all of this,

they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you,

and you'll be brought before governors

and kings for my namesake."

- He told followers, "When bad things happen,

you know that good times are near.

The more bad that happens,

the closer we are to deliverance."

(motorcycle engine revs) (light orchestral music)

It's the perfect defense for Brian Houston

because the more that he was persecuted,

the more alluring he became to a lot of his followers.

(group chattering)

♪ It's time to go (congregation cheers)

- He was actually proving what he was predicting,

which is, "They're going to come after me.

They're going to accuse me of things."

- I still want to have a Pentecostal two-step when I'm 112.

(congregation cheers) (congregation applauds)

To me, it's not about the politics.

It's about the position.

(audience cheers)

- It's just been a real easy path for you, right?

I mean, it was just kind

of a tiptoe through the tulips kind of thing.

- [Speaker] "Live, Love, Lead: Your Best is Yet to Come!"

(Brian laughs)

- For a lot of Pentecostals,

the truest proof of perfection is persecution.

- Persecuted, but not forsaken. (laughs)

- As the allegations and the stumbles

within the church became more and more public,

Hillsong became presciently shaped

by defensiveness more than anything else.

- The battle lines are drawn,

and when it comes to me and my family,

I believe the gates of Hell will not prevail against us.

- But there's so much disarray

in the way Brian has led the church

that Brian's unraveling was bound to happen at some point.

Some people were bound to start putting things together.

- Do you think you could've avoided this

by reporting it to police?

- [Reporter] You told your followers

that you were ready for battle.

Is that a reference to the charges?

♪ But it's time to go

(slow music)

♪ I hope you find some peace of mind ♪

♪ In this lifetime

♪ I hope you find some paradise ♪

(slow music continues)

(slow music continues)

(slow music continues)

- We are going to welcome Pastor Bobbie

as she comes to bring the word, but before we do that,

we are going to watch an important announcement

from Pastor Brian and Bobbie, and so come on,

let's together watch this important announcement.

- Well, hi, church, it's been an unexpected season,

and we're thankful for you all

and for the incredible sense of community we share.

As you know, I received unexpected news of charges

against me that allege the concealing of information

that may have been material to prosecute Frank Houston.

These allegations came as a complete shock to me,

and it's my intention to vigorously defend them.

But recently, we made a decision

that may come as a big surprise to you,

and I wanted you to hear it from me directly.

Hillsong's external legal counsel gave the board advice

regarding the current charge I'm facing,

and that it would be best practice

for me to step aside completely

from church leadership during the court proceedings.

So it's likely to be drawn out and take up most of 2022.

I intend to fight the charge,

and I welcome the opportunity to set the record straight.

It's important to note, Bobbie intends

to stay fully engaged in church life.

(slow orchestral music)

- [David] In most realms,

if a CEO is facing a criminal charge,

naturally they step aside, that's just good governance.

The confounding thing here is

that Hillsong's never been subject to good governance.

So the fact that he stepped aside meant

that there was absolutely other elements at play.

- [Bobbie] Smiling, (laughs) yeah.

- It'll be great.

Wherever you guys are around the world,

I pray you'll have a great Sunday.

Thank you. - [Bobbie] Thank you.

(slow orchestral music continues)

- One month after Brian's announcement,

I turned on my computer in the morning.

There was an email and it said "Anonymous tip.

Something big is happening in Hillsong, please call me."

(lively orchestral music)

When I called that person, they told me

that something was going down this week with Brian Houston.

A new problem had come to light,

and a few influential leaders of the church were upset.

The fact that I was in touch with a source was a big deal.

Hillsong is protecting itself nearly all the time (laughs)

because churches like Hillsong and people like the Houstons,

they thrive on opaque systems.

They don't want anybody really knowing what's going on.

- Why is it hard for people

to speak out against Hillsong Church?

Because they've signed NDAs, (laughs) that's why.

We signed such an ironclad NDA that kind of eliminated our-

- [Interviewer] Just gonna put that on the record,

you do not need to talk about that.

- It does feel, it does feel off.

It does feel like, you know,

people should be able to say what they need to say.

(slow orchestral music)

- God wants to be able to trust you.

- Why does a church need an NDA?

The megachurch is a giant corporation.

They're employing hundreds of people.

They're taking in millions of dollars.

They're managing hundreds of thousands

of square feet of property.

As an organization, you start going,

"Well, how do we protect ourselves?"

And the models that you adopt come from the corporate world.

You start building an HR process like any other corporation.

You start hiring lawyers like any other corporation,

and it just goes on down the list.

- Some people would say that's standard for a business.

I don't know if it's becoming standard for churches.

- Because they've adopted the corporate model,

they've adopted these corporate safeguards.

Now, of course they're not protecting trade secrets.

That's where it gets really troubling.

What are they protecting?

(slow music)

- When you probe deeper,

you find that there has been a building resentment

towards the old boys' club that runs Hillsong.

That building resentment revealed, I think,

the seeds ultimately for the destruction of Brain Houston.

It all really kicked off at Hillsong College.

(slow rhythmic music)

- Within the first week, when everyone's arrived to start,

they interviewed us individually.

- They would bring us into a room of about 20 pastors,

and just with a single chair facing each other.

- It was actually kind of intimidating.

- We were being told

we were doing a working with children's check.

We had to tell them

kind of all of our deepest, darkest secrets, really.

Have you masturbated in the last year?

Have you had sex in the last year?

Have you ever hallucinated

that a demon was standing right there,

or have you ever seen one?

- You're not meant to get new tattoos.

You're not meant to date.

Obviously you're not meant to be gay.

It could potentially mean

that you can't be in college anymore.

- You learn how to keep secrets then, because you're like,

no one in here has looked at porn ever, really?

Okay, well, me neither.

Nobody in here thought lustfully about a woman all month?

Me neither, 'cause otherwise,

they're going to start looking at you like,

"This guy probably isn't cut out for ministry."

- I thought, I want to be a truthful person,

and nothing bad can come from the truth, right?

Like, the truth should set you free.

"Have you ever watched porn?"

I said, "Yes."

"Have you masturbated in the last six months?"

I said, "Yes."

"Have you had sex in the last year?"

I said, "Yes."

- When they would write all that down on a little iPad,

and then immediately afterwards,

you would get your working with children's check tag

and you have to put it on, and if you had a red dot,

everyone who sees you in the church knows that,

you know, you're struggling.

You were blacklisted.

- I hadn't even told anyone that I thought I might be gay

when I came to college, but back then,

it's like you're struggling with homosexuality.

That language was really important, you know?

It's not something that you are, it's a behavior,

and therefore it's something you can change.

- My mission was to be a drummer.

I've been volunteering my heart out for the past two years.

I've been working 60 hour weeks.

I've been putting my effort in, putting my dues in.

I was shortlisted to go to Indonesia for a tour,

and I was gonna get it.

Then a senior staff member approached me

and asked some questions

that I've never, ever shared with him.

Turns out they had written in my permanent file

that I had a homosexual experience when I was younger,

which didn't happen, and I, (sighs)

which wasn't, it was actually a molestation

from my old church that I went to.

He said, "Nope, you're not gonna be able

to come on tour or any other tours."

And after that conversation,

I knew I will never progress further than this.

As soon as homosexuality comes up, they shake their head,

and, "No," like, can't, you can't.

- I couldn't handle the guilt of being gay.

I ended up coming to a teacher who I trusted.

They asked me to start coming into the offices

and to see a counselor that they had just hired

so that I can stop having these tendencies to love women.

Counseling with the purpose

of figuring out why you may be gay

is now what we know as a soft version of conversion therapy,

and it's dangerous.

- We, as college students, were penalized for being human,

penalized for, (sighs) yeah.

(slow music continues)

(slow orchestral music)

- Having grown up in the Hillsong movement,

I feel it is a responsibility for Christians to stand up

and actually start speaking out against the abuse,

so I started up a website called ChurchWatch.

(slow orchestral music continues)

My focus wasn't just on Frank,

it was Hillsong and its history, as well.

I was encouraging a whole bunch of people to work in there,

to share their stories and information.

I was hoping because it was so well-reasoned

that a lot of Christians

for the first time could understand the way

that Hillsong has conducted itself.

I had to do this anonymously for the last 12 years.

- For so many years, we were all isolated and disconnected,

any of us who had not had a positive experience at Hillsong,

and it wasn't until sites like Facebook became available

for people to connect and realize

that they had quite similar

if not identical experiences to each other,

and that they weren't the problem, the system was.

- There's a Facebook page with a lot, a lot of us,

and it actually happened by accident.

Someone posted something a little bit controversial

on the main Hillsong College page,

and College immediately replied

and took the post down and started censoring all of us.

And so someone made a support group.

Within one week, we had over 300, 400 members,

and people sharing their stories

and getting healing from it.

- The group on Facebook started,

and it was really when my perspective changed.

It gave me the chance to say my piece

and for other people to come along and say,

"That's actually not okay.

Like, those things are not acceptable."

- We've been hearing about people

who've been coming out of the Hillsong movement

who've been deeply wounded, who've been rejected.

You're supposed to act a certain way

and think a certain way and filter it

through all these particular doctrines and beliefs.

I look back now and go,

"I can't believe I put myself through that."

- Hillsong had a real fluency and mastery

of some of the pop culture

and social media levers of the day.

- [Speaker] A decade later,

those same tools were used by ex-congregants and students

to tell a very different story.

This time, they cracked open the Hillsong facade.

- Over the years, I think people felt much more safer

to start to criticize on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube.

- And so you get from the Hillsong College

and social media kind of a Me Too movement

against Hillsong in Australia.

The whole Anna Crenshaw Hillsong College episode

really did erupt, actually,

and blow up in the face of Hillsong.

(heart beats)

- [Speaker] Anna Crenshaw first told her story

to "Vanity Fair."

She was groped by a young Hillsong staffer named Jason Mays.

(slow ominous music)

- When she complained about it,

the whole protective mechanism of Hillsong College swung in.

She was kind of given a pat on the head

and told to kind of get on with things.

- [Speaker] Hillsong tried to make it go away,

so she went to the police

and pressed charges against Jason Mays.

Mays wound up pleading guilty to indecent assault,

and he received two years' probation

and mandatory counseling.

This is one of those cases where the law sided with Anna,

but Brian Houston and Hillsong really came

to Jason's rescue.

- I found out from LinkedIn

that he was given a better job during that time.

- [Speaker] Hillsong seemed anxious to forgive and forget,

but Anna decided to go to the press.

- You know, I felt like

I was the one who was in trouble, not him.

- [Reporter] The Crenshaws believe Jason Mays

was given preferential treatment

because his father is Hillsong's head of Human Resources.

- We're not talking about a sexual predator here.

We're talking about a young man, young married man,

who did something stupid, got much drunker than he should,

which is an issue we've got to keep addressing,

and got himself in a bad situation, that's it.

- He said that Jason was just in a bad situation,

as if something happened to Jason.

- These factors of discrimination,

the lack of justice, kind of coalesced

to produce some real anger and a real backlash,

people who are of a generation

that is prepared not to just go along with it,

but actually to make sure the voice is somehow heard.

Whoever has engineered the anonymous tips

to me really wanted to underline the hypocrisy

of what Brian did,

that while he's telling everybody else to be perfect,

Brian's holding this secret.

(slow music)

- I think the fact that a church in Australia is blessed,

God's blessing us, it's growing,

it's got momentum, it's got movement,

man, it makes some people out there so angry.

- Towards the beginning of 2020,

before Hillsong became the subject

of this international media conflagration,

(slow dramatic music)

two men got together to play golf.

(slow music)

They had both been Hillsong congregants,

but one of them had left the church recently.

The man who hadn't left the church started asking his friend

what happened, what had gone wrong?

The man revealed that his mother had had an encounter

with Brian Houston in a hotel room in Sydney,

and he produced the confidentiality agreement

that his mother had signed.

After these two men played golf, the man

who hadn't left the church called a spiritual mentor,

concerned about what he had just learned,

and his mentor immediately believed the story

because his wife had in fact had a similar experience.

About a decade earlier, Brian had been sending text messages

to her that made her feel increasingly uncomfortable.

She also signed a confidentiality agreement.

- [Speaker] So you have material that was supposed

to be sealed under an NDA that turns into gossip

that circulates around the church that reporters hear.

- My source said that Brian

and Hillsong had paid out hush money to the two women

and that they had signed nondisclosure agreements,

and that word of this had now got to the elders,

and one elder in particular, Dr. Gordon Lee,

was very worked up about this.

Dr. Gordon Lee was the physician

who signed off on the idea that Frank had dementia.

- It seems at this point Brian has become more

of a liability than an asset.

- [Alex] So for someone like Gordon Lee,

who had really stuck by Brian's side for a long time,

there's only so much you can do.

- Gordon Lee began speaking to donors

about Brian Houston's transgressions.

There was this mounting tension

that was threatening the bottom line in a very direct way.

The source told me that there was going

to be a major meeting, and it was gonna be on Zoom.

They offered to get me a recording of the entire meeting,

and that is indeed what happened.

(slow ominous music)

- So,

I have the responsibility

of sharing with you some news.

There are two incidents involving Pastor Brian

that as a board we have had to deal with.

The first incident involved Pastor Brian text messaging

with a female member of staff along the lines of,

"If I was with you, I'd like to give you a kiss

and a cuddle, or a hug," words of that nature.

That particular staff member was obviously upset by that.

- The text messages Brian had been sending led the woman

to resign from her job.

- This particular staff member came back

'cause she couldn't get work.

- Hillsong leaders set up a meeting with her,

and they asked her what she wanted

to sort of make all this go away,

and she said that she just wanted

to be paid the salary she had lost since she had resigned.

And they said, "Instead, how about $25,000

and a confidentiality agreement?"

- Pastor Brian said, "I want to pay that personally

'cause I don't think it's fair on the church to pay that."

- That secret was kept for 10 years inside the organization

and known apparently to only two people.

- Personally I was not aware of that,

as was the majority of the global board.

- Spool forward to 2019,

there's Brian's 40 minutes inside the hotel room

of a woman who was a supporter of Hillsong.

Brian's said to be drunk.

Brian's said not to have had his key to his room,

found himself knocking on her door,

found himself inside there.

(slow ominous music continues)

- Brian has said there was no sexual activity,

but he was in the room for 40 minutes.

He doesn't have much of a recollection because of, he says,

the mixture of the anxiety tablets and the alcohol.

- The woman complained, ah, what did they do?

They returned her donation

and her conference fees, the minimum possible.

- Again, Pastor Brian with remorse said,

"I don't want the church to have to pay that.

I will personally pay that."

These allegations were treated very seriously,

and I believe, you know, real significant steps were taken

to investigate and resolve them.

- Again, we have this same old pattern.

We have an investigation team appointed.

The investigation team is meant to be independent.

When you look more closely, you find out

that three of the four are old mates of Brian,

and so we have a Hillsong-curated version of those events.

The women involved had no voice.

- The decision was made to offer,

I suppose, what I would call grace,

and not to cover up, but to not expose.

- The source told me that they

and others were determined this time

that Hillsong would not control the narrative,

and that's why they wanted to leak the entire audio

of the meeting to me.

- And I would hope that,

I don't know if people are recording this,

I would hope not. (laughs)

- Within five minutes of that meeting finished,

I had a file and was able to write a report,

which I got out in about 30 minutes.

It was the day that Houston lost Hillsong.

It was also the day Hillsong lost control of the narrative.

(slow music)

- Brian could say that Carl's bad behavior

was just a Hillsong New York problem.

- There were leadership issues.

- And he had no idea about his father's transgressions.

- These allegations came as a complete shock to me,

and it's my intention to vigorously defend them.

- [Alex] But I really wonder how Brian explains

away paying hush money for his own bad behavior.

- It's a fall from grace of biblical proportions.

Brian Houston's 45-year reign as head

of the huge Hillsong Church has come to a shocking end.

- Brian Houston has quit the megachurch following

an internal investigation revealing inappropriate behavior

towards two women.

- [Reporter] The announcement was made

at an emergency meeting yesterday.

- Dear church, we would like to advise you

that Pastor Brian Houston has resigned

as global senior pastor of Hillsong Church,

and the board has accepted his resignation.

We understand there will be much emotion at this news,

and we all share these feelings.

- Suddenly we got a very, very different picture of Brian,

so I think it cracked open wide the whole edifice of trust,

the whole edifice of Brian knowing best.

It just disappeared in a moment.

- Hillsong Church was birthed out

of Brian and Bobbie's obedience and commitment

to the call of God, and we are extremely grateful

for all that Brian and Bobbie have given to build his house.

- Resign?

(both laughing)

- Like, sure, of his own free will, sure.

- When Brian's resignation was announced,

one thing that stood out is

that we didn't actually hear directly from him.

He emails a pro forma apology to Hillsong congregants,

but as far as what he presented to the public,

it's really just a few social media posts

and effectively pleas for sympathy.

Then he does what his father did,

instead of address these matters in public,

he goes on vacation.

(slow orchestral music)

(scooter engines revving)

But at Hillsong, the wheels really fall off.

The US branches start shuttering.

Even the people who this place was set up

to really benefit were starting to jump ship,

such as Hillsong Phoenix Pastor Terry Crist.

- Let's build a culture where truth can be told

without fear of repercussion, (congregation applauds)

without NDAs and non-competes.

- [Dan] Hillsong Atlanta Pastor Sam Collier.

- People don't come to church for scandal.

They come to church to have a safe place.

- [Dan] Hillsong Boston Pastors Leona and Josh Kimes,

as well as prominent members of the board.

The music, which is really the calling card

of the church, takes a huge hit.

- [Speaker] Worship leaders should strongly reconsider

playing Hillsong music in their worship services.

- Suddenly it wasn't so great

for Scott Morrison to be friends with Brian Houston.

- I mean, I haven't been at Hillsong now

for over about 15 years.

I go to a local church in my own community,

a Pentecostal church, I think everybody knows that.

- Who's in charge, who's running the board?

Who's gonna be left to clean up all of the remaining messes?

(congregation applauds)

- Phil Dooley is trying to fill Brian Houston's shoes,

but, you know,

the beanie, the curly hair,

I'm sorry, it's something of a pale imitation.

He doesn't project the personal power of Brian Houston.

- This is not necessarily an inspiring night, okay?

(slow orchestral music continues)

- [Interviewer] Why are you breaking your silence today?

- So, I think it's safe to come out now,

only because of what Hillsong is now going through,

to actually stand up, pretty much.

The Goliath is on its back.

(slow music)

- As the allegations and the stumbles

within the church became more and more public,

it made the reporting process a lot easier.

More whistleblowers started to come forward.

- [Reporter] For the first time,

detailed allegations of financial impropriety

by the megachurch have been made public thanks

to a lawsuit brought in the federal court

by the church's own bookkeeper.

- [Dan] Natalie Moses observed an array

of what she said were unethical accounting practices.

- It always amazes me,

with all that our church is doing to help people,

that some people can't look past my motorbike and a watch.

Yes, I do have a nice watch, but I don't think that's a sign

that I'm living this massively over-affluent life.

(slow music continues)

- [Dan] Natalie Moses tried to pursue internal methods,

and when she was met with resistance, she was fired.

- Natalie Moses claims she discovered a range

of financial schemes, large cash gifts given

to members of the church,

including its founder Brian Houston,

as well as the remittance of large sums of money overseas

to avoid scrutiny by local regulators.

- Churches aren't corporations,

so they're not held to account

by the corporate regulator and shareholders.

They're not government agencies,

so they're not held to account by the sort of usual measures

in politics that hold government agencies to account.

They kind of live in their own space,

and if there's something we've learned

from the royal commission, it's that there's an expectation

that something would happen.

(slow music continues)

But again, it became apparent

that nothing was happening.

(slow music continues)

(slow piano music)

- The member for Clark.

- Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

Hillsong is breaking numerous laws in Australia

and around the world relating to fraud,

money laundering, and tax evasion.

For example, this document shows how in 2021,

four members of the Houston family

and their friends enjoyed a three day luxury retreat

in Cancun, Mexico, using $150,000 of church money.

And these documents show former leader

Brian Houston treating private jets like Ubers,

again, all with church money.

Hillsong followers believed that the money

they put in the poorbox goes to the poor,

but these documents show how

that money is actually used to do the kind of shopping

that would embarrass a Kardashian,

for example, a six and a half thousand dollar Cartier watch

for Bobbie Houston, two and a half thousand dollars

in Louis Vuitton luggage,

a two and a half thousand dollar watch for Phil Dooley,

two watches worth $15,000 for Joel and Julia A'Bell,

and even $16,000 for custom skateboards.

And then there's the cash gifts,

up to $30,000 to board members, some of whom

allegedly helped cover up the sexual abuse carried out

by Frank Houston, Brian Houston's father.

There's also the curious payments of $10,000 each

to pastors who investigated allegations

of Brian Houston's 2019 sexual misconduct

in a Sydney hotel room involving a female parishioner,

the documents also revealing Hillsong earns $80 million more

in Australian annual income than it reports publicly.

I verified that these documents are genuine,

and am shocked that when offered to the ATO, ASIC,

and ACNC last year under whistleblower legislation,

not one of those agencies acted,

and that is a failure of regulatory oversight every bit

as alarming as Hillsong's criminality.

Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

(slow piano music continues)

- I want to start by saying I'm sorry.

I'm sorry that as your pastor, you have to go through this,

and your kids have to go through this.

It kind of feels like being king hit from behind.

But Jesus loves you, Mr. Wilkie.

(congregation applauding)

(slow piano music continues)

- Here in the States,

the popularity of Hillsong has sort of fallen off a cliff.

Is there something similar happening where you are,

or is it still sort of going strong?

- Tithes and donations have dropped 20%

on this time last year.

The money is the lifeline of Hillsong,

and it was a really serious revelation, I think,

for donors to Hillsong to learn

that there had been secret payments

of their money, basically, right?

"So I give to the church,

and my money ends up secretly being given to a victim."

Even if the payouts were small amounts,

I think it really undermined that trust.

- [Alex] The more we learn about Brian's behavior

as a leader and as a human being,

the more incoherent his handling of Carl felt.

(slow piano music continues)

(gently chiming music)

(gently chiming music continues)

- I ended up in Florida because Florida is so off the radar.

It's been quiet, it's been slow.

I don't know exactly how to label what I'm good at,

but advertising, you know?

That was a pretty easy little carryover

because I've been advertising the gospel

for quite a while. (laughs)

(gently chiming music continues)

(light switch clicks)

(footsteps pattering)

(footsteps continue pattering)

This is it, this is my spot.

It's my spot and I love it.

Obviously from time to time people will recognize you,

and there was a guy, (laughs) we were in a meeting,

and after the meeting, my boss noticed he kept looking over,

and he's like, "Yeah, that is Carl, he's with us now."

And so he comes down and he's like,

"Man, it's really great to see you."

He's like, "How does it feel to go

from so high to, like, so, so low?" (laughs)

And I was like, "Well, when you put it like that,

it doesn't feel great."

- When they first started doing this-

- I get it, I get what it looks like.

This actually isn't, it's not like a better or worse

or a high or a low, you know?

It's just a different, it's a different setting.

Really soon after a lot of the stuff

that, you know, was going on in the media,

even in the middle of that storm, I went to a rehab.

- [Reporter] Carl Lentz has checked

into an outpatient facility that specializes

in depression, anxiety, and pastoral burnout.

(slow music)

- In there, I began the layer peel back

of how you end up in the spot that I ended up.

(group chattering)

It took me this awful rock bottom moment

to peel back what sexual abuse does to somebody's brain,

in regards to how I handle sex, how I handle truth,

how I handle defense systems, how I handle control,

and for a long time,

it kind of dominated my life without me knowing.

I found out at that rehab center

that I was a mess inside, I was a mess.

I've learned a lot about what church can be

in recovery rooms.

Unfortunately, sometimes in our Christian community,

we have just neglected, you know, logic,

neglected science, neglected therapy, neglected help.

Christianity would say, "You've got a problem with lust."

You know, you go to a rehab, my therapist says,

"Can you stop using that word?

You know, you were a child,

and you were forced to do these things,

and now you have some issues that you need to work through,

but let's save the lust stuff for your Christian summer camp

and let's talk about your brain chemistry for a second."

And is lust a thing, of course it is,

but my point is, I went to a rehab,

and we prayed, we talked about God, but then we went in

and talked about the stuff that prayer in and of itself

and talking about Jesus is not going to fix.

My actions are my fault, what I've done is my fault.

But where that thing started, I had no control over.

I was a kid, and.

(slow music continues)

(slow music continues)

The stuff that's happening with Brian now,

like, this is tough for me, I'll be honest with you.

It's really, really hard.

Some of it's frustrating, yeah, because the stuff

that he looked at me with the finger, and how could,

you know, "This is what you did."

You know, if there's one person who is not qualified

to talk about the state of another person

in this situation, it would be Brian.

(slow music continues)

But I hate to see what's happening right now.

- Hillsong founder Brian Houston is back in Australia

to face allegations he concealed

his father's child sex abuse.

Nine News was there as he emerged

from quarantine just days before his first trip to court.

(slow orchestral music)

- [Reporter] Brian Houston back in Sydney,

the holiday well and truly over.

- [Speaker] Brian comes home and really starts

what I call a non-apology tour,

doing everything in his power

to resurrect his brand outside of Hillsong.

- Well, hi there, I pray you're doing well.

I want to be clear,

the media and others incorrectly say I resigned

because I breached the Hillsong code of conduct,

but that's just not true.

I didn't resign because of my mistakes,

I resigned because of the announcements

and statements that have been made

which Bobbie and I felt made my position untenable,

and I spelled out my reasons-

- [Speaker] Not only does he not apologize,

he goes fully on the defensive.

- The narrative that I'm an alcoholic is false.

In fact, I've been told by an expert therapist

that I do not display the behaviors

that are typical of an alcoholic.

And the notorious night in 2019

where I mixed a double dose of anti-anxiety tablets

with alcohol was a one-off occasion.

(Brian laughs)

It's great to be here, and you know what,

I love this church, and-

- Brian is trying to maintain a tenuous juggling act.

On the one hand,

he faces this really serious charge in court.

- Alleged concealment of alleged child sex offenses.

- But on the other hand,

he's trying to rehabilitate himself as a preacher.

- We've had a big challenge with seats

because some unhinged

and childish people kept reserving fake seats.

People are harder on people than God is, by far.

Cancel culture will write you off,

but God won't write you off.

- [Speaker] After Brian was forced out,

he'd started to go against Hillsong.

He decried the way he was forced to resign

and how Bobbie was terminated.

They pivoted to a new strategy

and painted themselves as victims.

- I think the hardest part to understand for Bobbie and I,

and the most difficult part, Bobbie's termination.

- When Bobbie got fired, they all were very shocked.

I'm like, "You just did the exact same thing to me.

This is your church, like,

this is what you built and your culture."

Like, I don't know what else they expected.

- I've been humbled, but I'm not living fallen

and I'm not living disgraced.

I'm living as a child of God with my head held high, chosen,

called, graced, and with a God-given future and hope.

(slow somber music)

- [Reporter] Today Hillsong founder Brian Houston appeared

in court to begin his defense.

- If he is found guilty, it could be up to five years jail.

I had a lot of people asking,

am I going to be attending his court hearing?

And I thought, what a great opportunity

to try and track every day.

It just made sense for me to see this to the end.

(traffic roars)

Jake Elliot here.

I'm outside Downing Centre for the court hearing.

I'll keep you posted.

- [Speaker] Loyalties have shifted

since the royal commission days.

Brian all of a sudden finds himself alone.

- [Jake] I was quite surprised

to see Brian without bodyguards or his elders.

His wife was there, one of his daughters was there.

It was the Houston tribe.

- [Interviewer] So what was the defense's argument?

- Essentially it was, well, Brian didn't know,

and anyone could've reported it to police.

- Brian is not the only one, you know,

half a dozen of the top Pentecostal people

in Australia also knew,

and at least two very senior Hillsong people

that we know of.

So this court case involving Brian

might not be the last.

- It's almost like the tide going out

and seeing which fish were gonna get caught.

Brian actually said Hazel, his mother,

knew about Brett Sengstock.

You could hear a pin drop.

(slow music)

She knew.

I actually felt sick hearing that 'cause a lot of people

in Hillsong have such a high regard for Hazel Houston.

She was such a bedrock in the early days.

I actually was upset for Brian.

I was upset to see how he had

to speak of his mother that way.

- I feel a great sadness.

I feel a great maybe moral responsibility.

But in terms of feeling like,

you know, that I somehow am personally responsible

or even that our church is ultimately responsible,

I don't feel.

The morality of it's a different issue than the legal issue.

I don't for one moment think

that my pain is anywhere near the level

of the person who was abused by my father,

and I've only got great, great sadness

about what my own personal father did to him.

- [Interviewer] What was Brett Sengstock's testimony like?

- It was actually really hard to sit through.

It was incredibly hard watching the defense really starting

to go after his memory, it was remarkable

for someone like Brett Sengstock to hold his ground.

So the trial hasn't yet finished.

It's recommencing 2023, June.

I'm gonna do everything in my power to be there.

(camera shutters snapping) (slow music continues)

(slow piano music)

- When I think about the friendship

that we've had with Brian and Bobbie,

the great times that we've had being connected

to Hillsong all those years, it's just a sense of sadness,

particularly the way Laura was treated.

She lost friends, she lost position, she lost

everything.

- The journal starts November 21st, which is

2020.

It's funny to look back at it.

"Everyone knowing my personal,

painful story is the toughest part.

It makes me angry.

I'm hurt by my husband for putting us in this position,

and hurt by Hillsong.

I've sacrificed a lot for the church.

So yeah, I'm mad at God.

I deserve to be loved, cherished, appreciated,

and cared for, and he changed our story."

(slow music)

- [Roman] I dare you to eat it.

- To eat what?

- I'm hungry.

- Can you let, we're gonna take that outside.

(slow music continues)

Ava, you take that.

- [Ava] Where does this go?

- Out on the back.

Out on the table. - Get to work, Roman.

(group chattering)

- [Roman] I didn't even spill it!

- It's been a grieving for me.

Carl made some really bad choices

and made some really bad decisions along the way.

I've done a lot of work on myself independent of him to be

a strong woman.

I don't need him and I don't need to stay.

(group chattering)

But I love him and I love my family.

I love my kids,

(slow piano music)

and I love what we're building now.

(group chattering)

- Okay, I'll do it, we're good, we're good, we're good.

- Why did you stay?

I think that's the question a lot

of people have wanted to ask me.

When my kids asked me that, I said,

"Because I see your dad trying and I see him changing,

and if I didn't see that,

and when I don't see that, I would leave."

- And one day I was like, "Hey, babe,

can you do something with these books?"

Because, like, everywhere in our room, like,

I'll go get my socks, there'll be one of her books,

like, "What to Do After You've Been Betrayed."

And then I'll go to brush my teeth, it's like,

"How to Know if He's Cheating."

And I'll go, like, to go to my closet,

and one of her other books would drop,

like, "What to Do When Your Husband's a Piece of Shit."

And I'm like,

"Babe, can you do something about these books?"

She's like, "No, they're gonna be everywhere."

(Laura laughs)

(group chattering)

(slow piano music)

- Should we pray?

(group laughs)

- Jesus, bless this food.

- Amen.

- [Group] Amen.

(slow piano music continues) (group chattering)

- Me and Laura are a work in progress, but we're still here.

(group laughs) (group chattering)

Do you have a feeling that this has

obviously affected your relationship with God?

- Probably more, like-

- Drawing closer to a degree- - Yeah.

- Yeah.

- I think it, like, negatively affected me,

because all the people that were, like,

hating on me on my Instagram who claim to be, like,

Christian and, like, children of God and stuff.

- Sometimes if you get a bad messenger,

it affects the way you hear.

- To stand in church and

figure that part out is,

is a lot, but I have to feel what I feel,

and I have to go through that process.

- [Ava] So is it-

- [Carl] When did you realize in this journey

that you married the right guy?

(group laughs)

- [Ava] Are we at a dark humor point?

- [Carl] We might be a dark humor family.

- I think we might be.

- I need four people in my life,

and they all share my last name. (laughs)

That's the truth, that's my circle.

That's who I'm focused on.

Those are the people that matter, and I have them every day.

So yeah, that was in jeopardy for a while, and so

I understand why some people would've walked away

from what happened with me.

I'm just super grateful for those that didn't,

and I'm super grateful that my circle of five is intact.

(slow music continues)

(slow music)

- I think Carl has paid for what he did.

In terms of healing for his congregants, for his flock,

there are thousands of people that he just sort of left.

- I posted this on Instagram in April of 2021.

"This church really needs to change,"

and I put like 20 exclamation points,

but I could've done, like, 40.

"In fact, it needs to be taken down and rebuilt

on a true, not Brian Houston, Jesus foundation.

Brian Charles Houston created and grew the culture Carl

and others were nurtured in.

So what do you expect is gonna come out of it?

You plant things in rotten soil,

then you're going to have rotten fruit," I'm sorry.

- Mm-hmm.

- The reason I'm doing this is

because I want to see one of two things happen.

I want to see change, or I want to see Hillsong shut down.

I loved Carl, and I didn't have a problem so much with Carl.

I didn't know a whole lot

about what was going on in Carl's life.

My problem was with Hillsong, period.

Hillsong is the last church

that I will ever go to this side of Heaven.

- I don't consider myself a Christian anymore.

I don't know the answers to the deeper questions in life,

and it's not so existentially terrifying to me anymore.

I actually find peace in just being like, "I don't know."

- Once I got further and further away from the church,

I just found out for myself

that I don't think any of it's real,

and it's beautiful if people believe in it,

but for me, it's not me.

I'm a really happy atheist.

- It's been

four years now since I stepped in a church.

There was no way that I was gonna continue

to betray myself, people deserve better than that.

People deserve to have an actual community.

- Failing people on a mass scale is hard.

I let down, genuinely, a lot of good people,

and I can only apologize and change.

My story is now one of recovery,

and it hasn't been without failure.

You know, it's not like we're on this road,

and all of a sudden, you know,

we're magically, our family's perfect, I'm good.

So it's a pretty humbling road to be on every day.

(slow music)

- When your church sort of turns inside out

and you see how much it was built

around the benefit of an individual,

rather than this quote unquote mission and vision

that you'd signed yourself up for, yeah,

the disillusionment's incredibly painful.

- Church is very triggering for me right now.

I'm getting better, I still can't sing.

I don't think I've said a word in church

in a year and a half.

And I know God knows my heart, (laughs)

and he knows where I'm at, and I know it's a process.

And it makes me sad (cries)

because I love the church, I love

what I was a part of.

But I see a lot of unhealthiness in church life as well now

'cause I'm out of it,

things that I didn't realize were unhealthy or, like,

manipulative, and I don't think that's God's heart,

and I don't think that's what Christianity's supposed to be.

- For any Evangelical community,

there needs to be a re-centering on the heart of the faith

over and against strategy and metrics

and success (laughs) and the numbers game.

- What if you took a year,

and instead of counting attendance on Sundays,

instead of counting conversions,

measure success based on how the church is showing up

in times of real crisis, crisis of life,

crisis of loss, crisis of suffering.

I think if the church wants to look at, like,

how do we avoid the pain of this stuff in the future,

really look to why people thought the church mattered.

(slow piano music)

- Your family's supposed to, you know,

give your kids their guidance

and where they're supposed to go,

and church is just a bonus,

and I feel like we have that twisted a little bit.

You have to be at every service every Sunday,

otherwise, you know, your life could fall apart.

I just disagree with that kind of mentality,

and I think there's more to church than just a building.

Now, more than ever, I really see that.

(slow piano music continues)

- My spirituality today,

it's very much a personal thing now.

It's not connected to formal church.

It's not connected to a place.

It's not connected to anything in particular,

other than myself.

(slow piano music continues)

- So when I left Hillsong, I went to a small church.

It didn't have all the fancy stuff,

but it did have the unconditional love

that I'd always been looking for and hoping I'd find,

and I found it there.

And that really feels like what Jesus was about,

being open and loving to everyone.

(slow piano music continues)

- Hillsong can't become a healthy organization.

It's a system of abuse, and without that system,

it's not Hillsong, it's a regular church.

It can't have the levels of success and reach that it has

if it's gonna treat people properly, keep children safe,

pay staff appropriately, have equality.

You know, you can't turn the Manson Family

into "The Brady Bunch."

- The reason I've spoken up is

because I saw what it did to me.

I've seen what it did to my family,

and if there is somebody else

who might have been abused by Frank who, maybe who knew me,

maybe who knew me, then they would talk to me.

- For those that Frank Houston preyed on,

a recognition of what they've been through,

I think, is really important.

They've carried this their entire lives.

It's a stone thrown into a pond, but the ripples never stop.

There is no healing there.

Brian Houston has the influence

to create a space where some sort of truth can be found,

and I don't think he's done that.

(slow piano music)

- Whatever happens with Hillsong,

whatever happens with Brian Houston,

they have provided a template

for churches all around the world,

for charismatic Christians to exploit

and to convert their personal charisma

into financial acquisitions.

That doesn't end with Brian Houston.

- [Speaker] I think that what Hillsong has shown is

the model is scalable and profitable.

You can do it everywhere, and people will eat it up.

The megachurch construct is forever going

to be part of our lives. (slow piano music continues)

- This whole contemporary Christian culture,

it needs to be dismantled in some way

and reborn as something else.

A church is people, a church is community.

The church should be people caring about each other,

and that honestly doesn't have to have anything

to do with Jesus, God, or anybody else.

(slow orchestral music)

(slow orchestral music continues)

(water rushing)

(slow orchestral music continues)

(slow orchestral music continues)

(slow orchestral music continues)

(slow orchestral music continues)

(slow orchestral music continues)

(slow orchestral music continues)

(birds chirping)

(slow music)

♪ They know

♪ When it's time to die

♪ The world will cry

♪ It's the end of you

♪ Only God knows when the beast was feeding ♪

♪ Taking from our mouths when we ain't eating ♪

♪ Only God knows, only God knows ♪

♪ Shedding more blood than we are bleeding ♪

♪ Shedding more blood than we are bleeding ♪

♪ Only God knows

(camera shutters snapping)

(slow orchestral music)

(slow music)