Original subtitles

POLICE SCANNER CHATTER: Yes, would you put me out at 14910.

Be making contact with the other half here.

- He's a suspicious person. 44-23 live.

We'll get them all at the station.

Group of guys in an old Cutlass.

- 10-4.

[♪ ♪ ♪]

- You couldn't be gay.

It was the worst thing that you could be.

- They straight out would call me -

you're sick in the head. You're mental.

You have a mental illness.

This is not a normal - this is not normal.

You are not a normal person.

- Our field investigation

has determined that you are a homosexual.

How do you respond to this charge?

- We were interrogated like prisoners of war.

You know, we were thrown in the back of a car,

driven to undisclosed area and interrogated

for hours and hours.

- My war was within the military,

the Canadian Armed Forces.

- And I remember telling them in one of the interviews,

I said "You can't do this," I said, "This is Canada."

And he looked me in the eye and he said

"We're the military. We can do what we want."

[♪ ♪ ♪]

- Prior to WWII, there was no security screening

in the federal civil service and even during WWII

and shortly after WWII there was no security screening,

and then the Gouzenko defection happened.

- In your opinion sir and in your experience,

is sex and such things part of the spying game?

- Yes, definitely.

- You know, on Sept 5th 1945

Igor Gouzenko walked out of the Soviet Embassy,

he was a lowly cypher clerk, and stuffed under his shirt

were 108 documents that found its way to the RCMP.

It revealed that the civil service had been

widely penetrated by the, it was then called the NKVD,

later the KGB, and that started the whole process of

looking at the backgrounds of the people

who were working for the government.

And after that the civil service was never the same again.

[♪ ♪ ♪]

- Canada was very naive and we thought that, you know,

who would bother spying on Canada, you know?

Who would care?

And then we find out that there's a communist spy ring

being run out of the House of Commons by Fred Rose

who was the communist MP, and I think

it really freaked people out.

- The government responded and started to

clamp down and so security screening was introduced in 1948

and that opened the door to just snooping and prying.

And the authorities in the West figured, ok the KGB is going

to start looking for people with secrets to hide.

- Like, someone, you know, is

cheating on their partner, someone is gambling,

I mean, there is a whole bunch of possible ways

in which someone could have a character weakness,

right, or some sort of addiction, but the one

that the Canadian state focuses on is homosexuality.

- It was the key focus, not just a focus,

it was the focus you see.

The Mounties were, like, extremely right-wing,

very conservative

and they just had a visceral detestation

of homosexuality, they saw it as a moral failing.

- Societies around the world have discriminated

against sexual minorities since time immemorial.

What happened after the second world war was, you had

the red scare, the communist menace, better dead than red.

And the fear that perverts were infiltrating our military

and our public service who were well to begin with, perverts,

and who secondly would be at risk of blackmail from

the Soviets authorities and who would then become traitors

to the country as well so they needed to be identified

and they needed to be rooted out.

It was pernicious, it was obnoxious, and in some ways,

it was just scapegoating but at least that was the fig leaf

of justification that was used.

- So, I think you saw in the late 1940s this kind of

social panic about there are communists everywhere,

there are homosexuals everywhere, and that feeds

into Senator McCarthy's very high-profile witch-hunt

against communists and against homosexuals

who were seen as virtually synonymous.

And we become viewed as a security threat

for the first time but also as a threat to society,

because you never know who's a homosexual.

- Ralph showed him some pornographic pictures.

Jimmy knew he shouldn't be interested

but well he was curious.

What Jimmy didn't know was that Ralph was sick.

A sickness that was not visible like small pox

but no less dangerous and contagious.

A sickness of the mind.

You see, Rob was a homosexual.

A person who demands an intimate relationship

with members of their own sex.

- So the National Security campaign in Canada

really picks up at that point in time, the ostensible reason

from the government's vantage point is that we supposedly

suffer from a character weakness and therefore are a threat

and risk to national security and should not be in employment.

We're not trustworthy, we're not reliable workers,

we should actually be purged from the public service.

- And at that time, the RCMP

would gather paid information.

I had a friend that worked for the RCMP and told me that

they needed a forklift to lift my file.

- That's an indication of what the RCMP also begins

to describe in some of their internal documents.

They describe how the previous gay informants

they had started to clam up, wouldn't talk anymore, right?

Wouldn't give them information.

Now, it's not entirely clear to us whether they gave people

money for information but they certainly would grill people

about, "Have you been to any gay parties lately?

Were there any public servants there? Who were they?"

That was a standard line of questioning.

- There was a

and The Lord Elgin Hotel

and take pictures of all the people coming and going

and accumulated an album.

- When the purge really took off in 1958,

John Diefenbaker of all people, people forget,

you know, he had the bill of rights.

He was a criminal defence lawyer.

He actually believed in human rights.

He expressed concern about this

that maybe this was going too far,

and he had some people look into it but if you see

the history of it from that point forward,

it's like the RCMP is a force onto itself.

This was - certainly politicians were aware of it

from time to time but I don't think they really controlled it.

I think they were told "Oh this is top secret,

it's very important, this is the way we do things."

- What happened then they said

we've got to find out who's gay.

- They came up with all kinds of indicators.

- If you wore a pinky ring,

that was a fairly good indication.

If you drove a white convertible,

big indication.

- If you go for a beer, you sit on the left,

always go to the left, never go to the right.

Like, the way you sit or the way you hold your cigarette,

you know, you don't want to appear gay or homosexual,

so you gotta look butch.

- The one I remember...

don't sit with your legs crossed...

sit like this.

Don't talk with your hands.

Don't put your hands near your face.

- My old sergeant, she was told when she was

in the military, not to go play sports with the other girls

because she would be tagged as a lesbian.

Apparently us lesbians are very sporty, I don't know.

- And the other one was don't,

I couldn't understand this until I thought about it,

don't breast your books.

Is when you carry a binder don't hold it up over your breasts,

carry it at your side like a man.

- But in those days, we had to be careful.

You know, you didn't want to appear, fifi.

[Laughter]

- Having to learn in a certain sense

how to perform yourself as being heterosexual, at least at work.

These are practices that people had to engage in, right,

if they wanted to maintain their jobs in the military

or in the public service, they had to continue

to try to construct themselves as being heterosexual.

- There was the official policy

and then there was the de facto policy.

The de facto policy was that if you were homosexual,

you were out. That's what it came down to.

You were out. There was no discretion.

And the Mounties got really carried away with this.

- And at that time, I was arrested by the RCMP

and the RCMP picked me up and they said that they wanted

to interrogate me and of course because I was brave,

I wasn't afraid of the devil.

My family knew I was gay, my boss knew I was gay,

I was a well-known hairdresser, and I was drag queen.

Did I fear the RCMP? Not unless they pulled my nails off.

And they got me there and I said,

"Is this what you want to see?" and I put down my drag pictures

and they said "Yes." They said, "We have a file on you

and you're the most notorious gay person in Ottawa."

And they had about 100 albums of gay, presumably male,

in these albums and they wanted me to put a name to them.

They were under the impression that gay males

would be blackmailed by the Russians.

And I told the RCMP that I wasn't going to give up names

and they said "Well, you're a traitor to our country,"

well I said "I would rather be a traitor to our country

than a traitor to my friends"

and I never divulged a single name

and when I finished I said "Fuck you very much."

- The RCMP would walk into a workplace and say

"You, you, you, you, follow me."

And then say, "If you don't resign, we're outing you.

And then firing you."

So, we don't know how many people then,

it would have appeared in the records as resignation

as opposed to dismissal.

So, that would give you another whole cohort of people

who were forced out of their job,

blackmailed out of their job, by the police.

- So, I was at work one day and I get a phone call

from the commissionaire downstairs in the lobby

saying your presence is required down here.

Two members of the RCMP in full uniform were downstairs.

So, I had a bad feeling.

Of course, I knew something was up.

So, I went down.

an appointment next week,

Thursday at 11 or something like that.

Mr. So and So from the SIU would like to meet with you.

And I asked... could tell me what it's about?

And no, she couldn't because she was never told what it's about,

and you're never again to probe and to ask -

you're just to obey and to follow the rules.

And being a person who followed the rules for the most part,

that's what I did.

I went to headquarters that particular morning.

- And they said "You have many friends

and if you can identify some of these friends,

like the homosexuals" and I said,

"Well why are you doing this?"

And they said "Well, we want to make sure

that you don't get blackmailed."

And I said "Blackmailed? Why would I be blackmailed?

I'm only a clerk."

- And then he led me to this little room

that he opened up with a key.

And I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe my eyes.

It was a little more than

a storage space for a janitor or something.

But it was just slightly big enough to have a little table

and a light above the table, which just hung,

you know, like a bare bulb.

And... [Laughter]

I had to stop myself almost from laughing out loud

when I saw it. I couldn't believe we were actually

going to sit in this little, windowless, airless room.

- Then they said, "We just want you to look at

some photographs, ok."

So, when I turned the page, the photographs -

were about four-inches thick - two or three books.

The first book they turned,

I saw myself,

with a group of my friends, standing in front of car

and I think they did this on purpose because I couldn't

very well say "Well, I don't know them." I'm there!

- And he began right off the bat

without anything that lead up to it.

It was just a clear-cut statement:

Our field investigation has determined

that you are a homosexual.

How do you respond to this charge?

But I was very surprised at the level of detail

that he wanted to know certain things.

He wanted to know about my personal life,

he wanted to know who my friends were,

he wanted to know names of people,

especially in the government.

And, in particular, in DND.

He wanted to know specifics about my sex life.

- After I left there, I was kind of shaking, you know,

I'm saying to myself, "Why me?"

- It struck me since then that I've thought

about it that, you know, security requires that you

be trustworthy, but trustworthy is a product of dignity

and here is something that robs you of your dignity.

So...

even if a person wasn't going to be militant in any way,

here was some way to make you feel that

you were not dignified, you weren't a human being,

you weren't a full human being.

So, that's always stayed with me.

And it's still hard.

But I'm ok.

[♪ ♪ ♪]

- So, it seems like this purge just developed a life

of its own and it became a cottage industry for the RCMP.

I mean my understanding is they had a whole floor

at RCMP headquarters devoted to this special investigation unit

that was doing security checks

and investigating civil service people and so on

and I understand that perhaps

as much as 90% of their work was looking for LGBT people.

So, a lot of people's jobs and careers depended on

this purge continuing and if it stopped, oh my God,

all these people are going to be out of work.

- They had this one program where they would

look for places where homosexuals would assemble

around the City of Ottawa and they came up with this map.

And they put dots - they figure -

this is an area

They put a red dot on there, and then they find another,

and another red dot.

Pretty soon the map was all red. (laughs)

They had to get a bigger map,

so they got a bigger map, and it was all red, too.

[Laughter]

- So, they actually tried to argue for

a new aerial map to be produced of Ottawa

that would be much, much bigger but I think the government

decided not to fund this, right.

- National Defence,

to its credit,

told them to go take a hike. They weren't going there.

[Laughter]

- What often would happen in the basement tavern

of The Lord Elgin on Elgin Street,

the basement tavern by that point in time

was actually a major place where men went to meet other men.

Public servants and non-public servants

would be using that space.

What became apparent to some of the gay men hanging out there

was that every once in a while, they would find someone

come into the bar,

put a newspaper up in front of them -

which was certainly, first of all, really odd, right -

this person wasn't establishing eye contact, they didn't seem

to want to be there for the same reasons

that other people were there.

People would also then realize that

there were holes cut in this newspaper

and that this person was actually taking photographs

of every person in the bar.

- The stress level of even going to the bar.

My girlfriend and I would go to the bars in Montreal,

not even in Ontario.

- We did go to the Montreal bar.

If the fire had broke there, we would have all died.

There was only one exit. It was an illegal bar.

- And it was back in the day when you had to ring

the doorbell and they would open the little latch and look.

- And she'll look at you and say,

"Yeah, ok. You can come in."

So, it was basement, but, we were home.

- I was very insecure and it was very hard

to make friends in the 50s when you were gay.

- In our day, like,

if we clustered more than three or four of us,

we'd always look over your shoulder.

- You had to learn how to behave

and how to dodge the punches because just for walking

on the street you had to find a route that was safe for you

to navigate because it was terrible to be gay in the 50s.

I had a friend that worked for the Parole Board

and he was like an animal that was afraid to be in public.

He said "We can't go to the Honey Dew,

I might be photographed.

I can't go here, I might be seen

and all the gay people that had important government positions

were petrified to socialize.

They just socialized at house parties.

- I think I realized years after the damage

that it caused. Because often I felt paranoid,

because, the weekends you would go to the gay bar in London,

you always look over your shoulder.

So, you kind of develop, not a paranoia, but a fear.

You're always in constant fear.

- They were trying to look for more efficient ways

of doing it, which is eventually what brought them

to the fruit machine.

[♪ ♪ ♪]

- I remember this girl saying,

"Oh yes you know, they can tell that you're gay."

"Really? How do people tell that you're gay?"

"Oh well, they have this thing, they have this machine

and it sees how your pupils dilate and so on,

and you know when you look at a picture of a naked man and

your pupils will get larger and that will indicate an interest."

I was shocked. I didn't know what to say about it.

- This is the attempt

by the government to determine

and find the technology, or a set of tests,

that would scientifically and objectively be able to determine

who was gay or lesbian, and if you are identified as

being gay or lesbian, you would be either refused employment

or purged from your job.

So, from 62 actually, until 67-68, the Canadian government,

with the mandate of the security panel and cabinet,

is actually involved in trying to develop this technology.

- Bob Wake, he designed the tests.

That was his job.

- Dr. Wake was in the psychology department

at Carleton University and was a major researcher

who was brought in to work on the fruit machine research.

First of all he was sent to the States for, I think,

most of a year to study the detection technology

that existed there and then

he came back and produced the special project report,

which they decided,

"We'll go with this and we're going to fund it

and pay for it."

- The plan was to show, basically,

dirty pictures of males in either nude or semi-nude

to other males

to see if this broadened their pupils.

- It was a whole series of tests - were part of

the special project - including anxiety tests, sweat tests,

word association tests, masculinity/femininity scales,

but the core of it was a pupillary response test.

- And this testing went on for years.

Like three or four years.

- But of course, it never really worked,

they were never able to get the numbers of research subjects

they wanted, even such things as the different distances

eyes messed up the technology.

During that period of time there was this notion,

if we could have a psychological or psychiatric or scientific

quick fix, it would actually really assist the campaign.

[♪ ♪ ♪]

- It strikes me as utterly ridiculous too,

I mean, and so non-scientific that you'd wonder why

they want to trust the results of such a test.

And yet they seemed eager to.

- It got to have a reputation, "The Fruit Machine"

and the guy who coined the term "Fruit Machine"

was a Sergeant in the RCMP named Vaughn MacKenzie.

And he had a very wry, sort of a quirky sense of humour

and he called it "The Fruit Machine" and the name stuck

and it became

And now the name has lasted decades later,

that's how we know the name, because of Vaughn MacKenzie

calling it "The Fruit Machine" at the time.

- I mean "The Fruit Machine," to me is kind of

a metaphor for that era,

the cold war era

but also for the, what can you call it?

Kind of...

the...

pre-liberation gay world.

[People chanting in a demonstration]

- Take this thing on homosexuality,

I think the view we take here is that there's no place

for the state in the bedrooms of the nation and I think that

what's done in private between adults

doesn't concern the criminal code.

- I believe that the purge actually increased

after 1969 because I think the people running

those government departments and the RCMP realized

that their days were numbered.

That it was no longer legitimate to get rid of LGBT people

and they had to hurry up and get rid of them

as quick as possible.

[♪ ♪ ♪]

- At that point, umm, there was a push

to have women in the military.

You know, the early 70s when feminism was just starting

to show - to have a little bit of pressure in the world.

- Been wanting to be in the military since I was child.

I just grew up with this, I want to be a peacekeeper.

I want to be like my uncle in the Second World War,

I want to be like my uncle in the Korean War.

I just want to help my country, defend my country,

be there for my country.

That was my goal.

- First of all, they want to train you

to become a warrior, to become a soldier in case of war.

I felt like I belonged and I enjoyed it a lot.

I cannot say that it was a piece of cake or easy, easy.

- Get up at five o'clock in the morning,

clean up yourself, clean up the barracks.

- You know, the crease in your pants

have to almost cut your fingers.

You know, the shine in your boots have to -

your teeth have to reflect in your boots,

then you know they're done.

If you can see your teeth in your boots, they're done,

they're perfect.

- We had physical training.

We had gun training.

We had physical training. [Laughter]

- Well, basic training is where you show your capability

of being able to handle military work.

Because you go through a lot of physical activities

and also be able to take negative comments,

just to see if you're strong enough.

- I handled the rifle, the submachine gun,

and the 9mm Browning, no problem.

I went on to win the Skill-at-Arms trophy

and that was the best shot in the platoon.

- It was fun!

It was all that a girl could dream of.

Well, a girl who wanted to become a soldier of course.

- It was like finding a family.

We were like, I think 52 young women,

between the age of 17 and 20 years-old,

maybe some were a little older.

But it's like - at the beginning you're scared

because you have no idea what to expect.

Your first time you're leaving your house, your home.

And people are yelling after you, telling you what to do.

- I had a ball.

Basic training for me was a party.

The back of my Maverick, if that car could talk.

- When I joined I was 18.

So, I was just discovering myself.

Just having fun and having a lot of friends.

So, that was awesome.

And people, I mean the women that I share my platoon with,

like, they were all sisters.

- I was just happy to be part of something big,

I think. To be accepted. To be me.

And just loved for just doing something good.

[♪ ♪ ♪]

- When I went to Borden, there was four to a room

with a little closet in the corner.

So, you had four women in the same room.

So, if you're already starting, you know,

thinking that you might be attracted,

you're thrown into an ideal situation for women.

To me, it was the best time for being a woman in the military

and exploring your sexuality, and the worst time.

- I was quite green, I'd say.

I did not have interest in boys.

That I knew.

I remember having a boyfriend, who came when I was civilian,

he came home, and then we brought him to the bus terminal,

and my Dad told me - I was sitting in the car -

my Dad told me "Well, go to him."

"What do you want me to do?"

"Well, go kiss him goodbye." "Why?" [Laughter]

- For me, I discovered that I liked women.

I think at that age you're still exploring

and still trying to figure out your life.

And I'll always remember the time, I was in Borden.

I was writing letters to a young woman that I fell in love with.

- When the heart speaks, what can you do?

And it was, at once,

fantastic but also almost terrifying

because I also knew that

that was not conducive to a military career

and there were policies - I wasn't quite sure what

the details were, but I knew it was something to be hidden.

- In the public service it wasn't quite as bad

most of the time, aside from those very, very early years.

But the stuff that happened in the military was in some ways,

sometimes, more intense.

Cause like, you have to remember, that this not only

includes purging individuals but a climate of violence.

- We knew there was investigations on the base,

we were hiding in the sense when you go and see a friend,

a gay friend, you park three or four blocks from the place

and you walk and you make sure nobody sees you.

You don't want them to see where you go.

I don't know why you do that, but you're just scared.

- I know we hid it a lot.

If they find out that you're gay,

then they're going to kick you out.

So, the seeds of fearfulness is planted.

- So, it was very much a matter of compartmentalizing

your life to fit what you were -

when you were with your friends, you were this way.

When you're at work, you were this way because

it was very dangerous to associate with these people.

Just by rumour you could be taken into

the special investigation unit and be interrogated.

- They were going after their own.

It was internal.

I didn't go out on any mission,

like in Afghanistan,

desert storm, I didn't do those places.

My war was within the military, the Canadian Armed Forces.

- The military had internal administrative

disciplinary practices from at least WWII that explicitly

would get rid of people who engaged in abnormal sexuality.

So, during WWII, thousands of people were actually purged

from the Canadian military on the basis of having

a psychopathic personality with abnormal sexualities.

So, you have this military campaign already preexisting

that purges "sex deviants" and now you have combined with that

in the military these national security practices.

- The CFAO is a Canadian Forces

Administrative Orders that's compiled in about 20 books.

It's huge.

Then the 19, article 19-20 showed up, was ordered by

the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces.

Now we know that.

- They called it homosexualism,

sexual abnormality investigation,

medical examination, and disposal.

Disposal really marked me a long time, ok,

because I was disposed of, you know.

And in this law, they were putting that for the purpose

of this order, homosexual

for person of his own sex, sexual abnormality is

form of sexual behaviour and not conforming with accepting

moral standards or constitutes an offence

under the Criminal Code of Canada.

Voyeurism, exhibitionism,

So, we're comparing, here, homosexual with people

that will have sex with animals.

- So, I'm sitting in the classroom having again

a lecture of some kind and then somebody knocks at the door

and they said, "Laperle, grab your stuff."

- He opened the door, there were two guys

standing there, and dressed in civilian.

- And they said, "Follow us."

So, I followed them outside.

- And they blindfolded me.

- "Get inside the car."

They got in front and they start driving.

And in the first five minutes I said,

"Excuse me, why am I here?"

And he said "Shut up."

So, I shut up.

- They brought me to a shack that I still today

don't know where it was.

- I knew the base.

It's 37 kilometres of circumference,

there was two McDonald's, two golf, I knew the base.

They brought me to a place that I never knew existed.

- Picture the straight-back chair

with the bare table and two other chairs with two men

interrogating you about your sex life.

So, it wasn't just "Are you a lesbian?"

And you admit "Yes, I am."

It was like, ok, who, what, where, when,

and how you did everything and it kept repeating for hours

asking the same questions.

- Started off asking very general questions

and I came right out and said,

"Are you trying to ask if I'm a lesbian?"

- And I'm afraid, I'm 19 years-old

and I'm being asked questions about,

"Who takes the garbage out in the relationship?"

- "What do you do when you meet up with your friends?

Do you hug? Do you kiss?"

- "Do you like being kissed by a woman?

Do you like being touched by a woman?

Seeing a woman's breast, what does that mean to you?"

- "Do you masturbate in the mirror?

Do you use a dildo?"

I'm 19 years old, I'm discovering who I am

and I'm saying, "What the hell is a dildo?"

- The questioning said "Well we heard, whatever,

you know, that you're a lesbian and you know

you're not allowed to be in the Forces" and so that was done

and I said "No, no, no." Denied it, denied it, denied it.

And then they went to attack my sister.

My baby sister at the time was in basic training

and they said "Well, if you don't tell us,

we're going to go after your sister."

And I said "Ok, I'm going to tell you

what you want to know, but you leave her alone."

- It seemed like every week,

every week they were hauling me into that MP shack.

"Ok, time for some more questions."

And ask me questions.

Always sexually oriented questions.

- And at first you say "No, and,

what are you talking about?" And you think you're real smart,

you think you're going to outsmart them.

- And then I say "Why you saying that?

I have a boyfriend."

And I really tried, for the longest time to defend myself.

To say "No, I have a boyfriend. I'm not seeing anybody else."

And then they start "How many times do you see him?

How's your sexual relations with him?

What's the intercourse?"

And they were going like this, like, non-stop.

And you're scared.

- And then they start streaming,

"Ok, you're suspected of being a lesbian.

We want names of all your friends, and we want them now

and you're not going to get out of here until you talk!"

So, you go "No, no, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a lesbian.

I tried it during English school, but I'm not a lesbian."

- At one point, they say "If you're honest with us,

we'll keep you."

So ok.

"Well, I'm confused."

That was my honest thing.

I had a girlfriend, I met a boy, I was with him

and then I met that woman and it was just a first-time thing.

I'm 20 years-old and I'm not sure about

my sexual orientation. You know, I was trying

to find any exit, any way that they could believe me

that I was not a homosexual.

That this was just a fling. A trial.

A thing like that. I won't do it again.

That I have a boyfriend and I'm straight. I'm not gay.

- At one point, they leave you alone.

They both leave the room, you're there.

No water,

and your brain just -

what's my crime here?

- If I would have talked,

the interview, the sequestration would have been over

within an hour or two.

No.

I decided I was not going to talk

and it lasted for three days.

- They just held you in custody for hours and

just asked you these repeated questions, circular question,

over and over and over again.

I think what they were trying to get at was "Who else?"

- Michelle, it's not going to be a pleasant thing,

I mean, for you, ok.

There's always been a concern with people in the forces.

How many gay people do you know?

Why are you concerned- about how many people?

You know, I'm dedicated.

I work hard at my job. I don't get it.

- I was subjected to this military policy

of discrimination, so, as my peers were advancing

to the rank of Lieutenant, then Captain, and so on,

I was still a Second Lieutenant, and imagine, people would say

to me "Like, why aren't you being promoted?"

So, it also had this kind of de facto way of outing you,

if for no other reason, if someone didn't know

about your sexual orientation, if you were just frozen at rank,

I mean, it was kind of a known thing.

So, it was so humiliating to be so dedicated

and yet so discriminated against.

- By doing what you've done to me does not encourage

anybody to come forward.

In fact, they've gone in the closet deeper.

They know what I've gone through.

- And finally, the last question they asked was

"How do you make love to a woman?"

And I got pissed and I told him "Bring me your wife

and I'll show you."

And that was the end of the interview.

- And I mean, they would read people's mails,

they would tap phones, they would do everything

that you can imagine a spy unit would do just to entrap someone

who was gay or lesbian.

Because they wanted to find out if they were -

there was always this myth that the reason

that lesbians and gays can't be in the military

was because they were susceptible to blackmail.

This was their main reasoning.

And yet, I had more men come onto me in the military,

then I certainly did women, I mean,

women were too afraid to act on this stuff.

So, I mean, I was more harassed, with you know, married men,

married men were more susceptible to blackmail

than lesbians and gays were.

- You'd have to understand the types of questions,

the insistency, the repetition of it.

They psychologically were breaking these people down.

They would repeatedly ask questions,

like the same questions, the degrading questions,

over and over and over again,

and it wouldn't be just for one day, it would be

for multiple days, continuously, and if you put yourself

in any foot of an 18, 20-year-old, 25-year-old person,

if you just imagine pulling one off the street today

and sticking them into a small room, I think,

and doing that to them, I think, we would call it torture today.

- Back in the 70s they used to punch us like this,

a lot, at basic training, during parade practice.

Your feet were not perfect, so they would go like this

and at night you would count all the bruises, you know.

Or they would hit your leg with their pace stick

because your feet were not perfectly placed,

but, not more than this.

So this guy pointed at me for two and half hours,

with a big light in my face,

then they played good cop, bad cop.

I am almost an MP, so, I've learned all those techniques.

- "You can't do this to me."

That was not part of that culture.

It still isn't today. "You can't do this to me."

It's that underlying ideology that the military can do

what they want, anytime that they want,

that 24 and 7 for national security is sort of the ideology

that underlines everything.

- And I remember telling them in one of the interviews,

I said "You can't do this." I said "This is Canada."

And he looked me in the eye and he said

"We're the military, we can do what we want."

- I was not really strong. So, I was very intimidated.

So, I was not the one saying "Hey, how did you find out?

Do you have proof?" Or anything like that.

I didn't know how to defend myself.

I didn't have a lawyer to defend me beside me.

They did everything against the law when you think about it

because you're supposed to have someone that helps you,

you know, with your rights.

- I think what people need to remember

is how young these people were. They were 18, 19, 20 years-old.

They were very young people. They were a long way from home.

- And when you feel they know - I remember

I looked at the wall and I said "I'm giving up.

I'm telling them, I am gay."

Yes, and I remember saying " Pis? Whatever."

I'll take the consequences.

But right then I thought the consequences will be nothing.

I'm a good soldier, I do everything the way

I'm supposed to. Nothing will happen.

You don't know the future.

So, I gave up, I told them the truth,

and when you tell them the truth,

you can't untruth.

- They started asking me about other young women

that I knew that were lesbian.

And they go through every single one of them.

- I did fail the lie detector test.

They pointed out to me that I had failed it

and then I wasn't telling them the name of the people

so they just threw this piece of paper,

a pad and a pen and told me to write names.

And I just wrote names. Any name.

Didn't necessarily mean they were on the base.

It was just any name that came up to my mind.

Nobody in particular.

- The main thing they wanted,

they wanted names of other people.

And when they asked if I knew, I said yes and they got out

a piece of paper and a pen and I said "You've got me,

you're not getting anyone else."

Like, I didn't want to take other people down.

I did not want to be the cause...

I didn't want to be the one,

the reason, I didn't want to lead them to anyone else.

- But for me to be in that room, somebody had to talk,

so that they would come and get me.

So, they were suspicious already that I'm gay.

- CFAO 19-20 gave them all the right to do anything

to detect us and kick us out.

- They know everything.

Who you're with, what you said, where you went.

Every single second of your life, they know.

- The three questions were "Are you homosexual?

Are you bisexual? Or are you heterosexual?"

And I said "Well, you and the military police and the SIU

have all been investigating me now for six months.

You know what I am."

- We were all being purged, they were looking at us.

It was chase of the queers.

- And then they start reading

the last month of my life.

They followed me for a whole month.

- They told me that I was a lesbian, and that there was

no place in the military for people like me.

- So,

they followed me in Toronto,

they told me the hotel name, my room number, who I was with.

So, I knew I was done. I knew I was done.

- It was like a movie. It was like a movie.

But in the movies, they take actors.

They don't use teenagers.

I was a teenager, I was a kid.

- And at that moment, I cracked,

I cried, I was shaking like this,

I couldn't believe my life was over.

I cried so much, that the medics said

"We cannot release her today, she's in shock."

So she said "We'll take care of her,

and we'll let you know when she can be released."

So, I trusted her, so I followed her, figured that

they were going to take me in the hospital for a day or two,

the time that I calm down.

But we ended up in St-Joseph Hospital, in psychiatry.

[♪ ♪ ♪]

- He said you'll have to go see the psychologist,

on a regular basis,

and then we'll determine from there.

So, they kept sending me there once a month.

- The next thing they did was ask me

if I was willing to take rehabilitation.

And I thought, hmm...

is that going to be shock treatment?

And he goes "We're not here to discuss treatment,

are you willing to take rehabilitation?"

I said "Well, I'm not sick."

- Schizophrenia, personality disorder,

borderline disorder,

latent adjustment to adolescence.

- All I remember is getting a shot,

and after that it's blur for two and half months.

[♪ ♪ ♪]

- I had two stays on the psych ward.

The first time took maybe 30-some days

and after that 85-days, or 84-days.

So, five...

five electroshock treatments were given to me.

And another five.

Five of them have been documented on the medical file.

They omitted the five others.

- So, I stayed in psychiatry and days went by

and days went by, and one day in March, my partner showed up

and he says "Lucie, they want to release you today,

so I'm here to get you."

I said "Just get me out of here."

So, I had to put my uniform back

because I got in there in uniform.

So, I put my uniform back, sign all the paper, and walked out.

- I still have the letter saying

he diagnosed homosexuality and

therefore I could not be rehabilitated.

That my release under CFAO 19-20,

was fully... how do you call that?

It was fully confirmed.

- 1989 I was released honourably by the military,

as being, I really have to get this correct

because it's so outrageous:

Not advantageously employable due to homosexuality.

- The release orderly room was busy and so,

they asked me to type up my own release docs.

- While I was being investigated,

I was up for promotion

and I was called into my Sergeant's office

and the Sergeant had all the promotions piled up there,

mine on top.

He says "You're being promoted, congratulations!"

But picked up the promotion

and ripped it up in my face

and said "You won't be needing this where you're going."

- So we get to headquarters

and everything was done,

all the paperwork was done, all I had to do,

sign here, sign here, sign here,

but I was paraded from office to office

because everybody now, everybody knows,

I'm being released under the CFAO 19-20.

So, it felt like, like,

I felt like shit.

Being paraded like this from office to office to do "my out",

my clearing out.

So, once it was done, I had to stop at the MP station

to give back my badge, and that was the worst thing.

I started crying so much, and I have to give to

the Warrant Officer my badge,

so I gave it to him and walked out and...

and the gate opened and I was a civilian.

- This for me, that moment in my life,

there was a lot of event, that was the event that I have

the most difficulty remember all, because I was so triggered.

I was so like, the floor opened under your feet,

that I feel like something, I lost it.

Like in my head and my self-esteem

everything like crashed.

- I knew that there were rapes that went on,

there were sexual assaults that went on,

and the military kind of turned a blind eye to it

because they were so busy chasing queers.

And letting the boys be boys. And that was acceptable.

- I went to the mess hall to meet some friends

for having a drink to say you're going to be leaving.

And some young Corporal put a drug in my glass and drugged me,

and I left with him and they tried to stop me

but I can't remember because I was drugged

and he raped me.

I woke up in his apartment the next day

and couldn't figure out why I was there.

And he told me why I was there and why he had raped me

"to show me what it would be to be with a man."

And I'm saying like "Ok."

I ran out of there, and I'm walking home and I'm saying,

to be with a man, that's what it is?

- They...

Ok, this is difficult for me to talk about.

One of the...

backlash, I don't know how to find

another word for it.

People knew I was there because I was waiting to be

court-martialled, because I was part of that group of lesbians.

So, one night, I was raped by three soldiers,

telling me that it's because I never...

knew what having a big one was.

To this day I still don't know who these guys were,

because they blindfolded me.

- It was a scenario from a horror story.

in their right state of mind,

would do that to a child.

It's unreal.

- Destroyed everything.

For me, the reality, because when I went out of there,

for me it was the world and me.

I was not part of it. I was just excluded of it.

So, I could not trust nobody.

I felt so dirty.

I felt like I let down my whole family.

I was like "What am I going to do with this?"

It was two - they kick me out two days after my birthday,

in December, of all times, you know, just before Christmas.

I remember arriving in Montreal not knowing what to do

and you don't even want to come and live here,

you don't want to go live nowhere,

you don't want to see your family, you don't want to see

your friends, you don't want to talk about it.

You just want to forget, so the best is drugs,

alcohol, drugs, let's forget.

Let's forget. I don't want to talk about it.

- I actually cleaned my system of pills,

by myself, in my apartment.

I got there, I owe two months rent, I had all kind of bills,

you know, hydro and stuff, and all I did, is I sat there

and I cried for about a week.

But, you know, when they kicked us out, they told us

"Do not apply for a job that requires a security clearance."

- And I remember the first job I found

was in a café called Le Funambule on Saint-Denis Street,

you know, I was doing orange juice and cheese and dishes.

You know and I was there, and I was like "God, you know,

how can you go from all up there, to there,

just because you like someone?

How can you be punished for that?"

- I mean even in the reports they made,

they can't even conclude that I'm gay.

They're not even sure.

But it's like we won't take a chance.

It's all upside down.

They say we have no proof of her sexual preference,

except of her own admission.

I never admitted that, I'm not an idiot.

I was young but not stupid.

to give you a definite answer

as to her sexual identity.

So, they themselves don't even have a clue if I am or not.

There's absolutely nothing in there that says

I'm not in good shape.

But here, I can't function.

This is so screwed up.

- Yeah, this was my on-the-job performance

evaluation that was done.

It just basically says what I did in my job

and I was evaluated.

Like, operating office machinery - very good.

Perform warehouse operations - very good.

Process material - very good.

Perform clerical functions in a supply facility - excellent.

And there's lists and lists of this.

And this was signed on first of March, 1980.

And in September 1980, I was released from the military.

So, it's hard to understand why.

You're doing a good job, but you're no good for us.

You're no good to us.

- It did leave scars on my heart and my soul.

It would be so much easier if I was straight

because I wouldn't have to deal with this, and you know,

I tried to have boyfriends, I did, I did,

because you want to conform,

you want to be like society wants you to be.

- I have always felt that the military

ruined my life.

And I felt that being gay also ruined my life.

- It was surreal. I still didn't believe it.

I still didn't believe that it would happen and I thought well,

I'll fight back and I'll do my grievance and somebody,

somewhere will have a lightbulb and say "This is stupid,

like, you don't release good soldiers."

After a few years of fighting and I went to the top

of all levels that I could, then I stopped and said

"Well, I have to earn my living now."

And I lived as a robot, I think, not feeling anything anymore.

Not feeling anything anymore.

Just feeling that was me then and I'm nobody now.

- I was a good soldier. I gave it my all.

And I would have given my life for it.

Absolutely. 110%.

And that's how we were trained.

You don't give just 50% of yourself.

We want it all. And they took it all.

But then they spit me out.

- You know, we were good people,

we were always good people.

Beyond being good military personnel, we were just good,

decent people who didn't deserve any of that.

- I was an excellent soldier.

I became homeless.

I had no money.

I couldn't come back to Ontario.

And then I found out that the only way that my family

will accept me is if I...

marry my old girlfriend.

So, I married my girlfriend.

And we had a family.

That only lasted a little while.

I was ok.

But...

I'm gay.

I'm not a straight man.

- Cause I felt ashamed for 38 years.

I still feel ashamed. Sort of like, betraying your country

because I was told I was security risk.

A threat to my country.

And I sort of felt ashamed.

So that was just something else.

But slowly you learn to live with it eh, so.

But your family doesn't know why you aren't in the military

and you can't tell them.

You know, for my life, I told them, that's all I want to do

and all of a sudden "Why did you leave?"

"Oh well, I thought I'd try something new."

So, you become this actress,

put a smile on your face and life goes on.

- They stole my life.

What I have been versus what I should have been.

I should have been the first female Chief Warrant Officer

in the MP trade. That's what I was going for.

I never got over it.

We all feel that pain at different levels, you know.

Some they went through one investigation,

one time that they were questioned

and they crack right away and they were kicked out.

You know, I fought for four years.

They wanted us.

We were marked.

And that was it.

[♪ ♪ ♪]

- I tried to get parts of my file.

I wanted the SIU investigative reports.

DND took months to reply to me

that they could not locate the files.

And I kept saying no, I worked in records management,

the files just don't disappear.

- It's my impression that

the RCMP

and the Department of National Defence have not been

as forthcoming as they ought to be.

I think that the Department of Justice people

that we're dealing with are honourable people,

I think they are negotiating with us in good faith.

But I have good reason to believe that they may not

be getting the level of cooperation from the RCMP

and The Department of National Defence

that they ought to receive.

- They have

all of those records.

The military does not destroy records. Ever.

- Thousands of people were investigated.

The RCMP gave an annual report, the last one we've seen,

they had 9000 people under investigation.

[♪ ♪ ♪]

- It was a war against us.

We should get retribution for that.

- Now, the odd thing is, and I interviewed a lot

of those Mounties, and I don't remember them ever coming across

a case of a homosexual being successfully blackmailed.

Even the Mounties themselves felt badly about it,

because it was such a travesty.

- It's very clear that our government

is committing to acknowledging and recognizing our legislation,

programs, and policies that contributed to injustices

and discriminations against LGBTQ Canadians,

and that our government will apologize

before the end of 2017.

- I don't want an apology.

I don't need an apology.

I don't.

The wound is too deep.

The wound is too deep.

It had sent my sisters and my brothers in arm

to commit suicide.

It sent them deep into alcohol, into drugs.

An apology?

No.

He may as well just go on his merry way.

- For me, an excuse is an excuse.

Won't change whatever happened for all those years,

because they knew what was going on.

Nobody did anything about it.

They just let it happen.

I mean, this was not in solitary,

this was not all hidden from everybody that were in charge.

So, what good is going to be an excuse, an apology?

I mean, I've had so many apologies through life

and it didn't change anything.

- I think we all deserve

to have someone witness our pain.

We all deserve to have a voice.

We all deserve to have someone hear what we have to say.

- Any of us at any time can become a minority

depending on the political circumstances of the day.

It's in all of our interests to look at things that happened

in the past, injustices, to recognize them,

to face up to them, to make amends for them,

so that we can recognize today that this is who we were

and who we are still and could one day become.

It's in everybody's selfish interests to recognize

persecution and prosecution of minorities in the past,

because you might one day become a minority yourself.

- We caused the damage as a country,

we have a responsibility to make it right.

I believe most Canadians are fair people.

But, they need to understand that it actually happened.

That our country, not the United States, not the United Kingdom,

not ISIS or some other horrible entity.

The Government of Canada, and the RCMP,

and the Canadian Armed Forces pursued this policy of targeting

gays and lesbians, and investigating them,

and interrogating them, and branding them as people

suffering from a character weakness and a threat to

national security and threw them out onto the street

after they had volunteered to help our country.

It was a disgraceful episode in our history.

- All I want, really, is them to say

"We did this, we apologize."

They can use the, it was the philosophy back then,

it was the same thing in civilian street.

They can use any excuse, I give them all to them, you know,

but just say "Yes, we did it, we recognize it,

and we apologize for it."

And maybe I'll stop crying.

- It is with shame, and sorrow,

and deep regret

for the things we have done

that I stand here today

and say

"We were wrong.

We apologize.

I am sorry.

We are sorry."

[Applause]

[Applause continues]

- Well, the human response is wow. This felt great.

For me, it was long time waiting for it.

It's been a very long journey and I'm very happy

that we are all here today.

To get this apology is not going to change what happened,

but it will change my perception of who did it

and how it happened and it will change my perception

of life and of my country.

[♪ ♪ ♪]

- This whole thing broke part of our soul.

I think it broke the person that we were supposed to be,

to where we're supposed to go. I think it broke part of us.

It will always be broken.

People that just wanted to be good.

Just good. Just good. Nothing else.

And we would have helped people, all the time.

And I noticed by talking to the people that were discharged

like me, they were the best.

And I was part of the best.

And it shouldn't have happened.

- It's time for people to know what happened.

And I mean, a lot of people, like my family that don't know

that I've been through this, but that's ok,

other people have to know too. They need to know.

It was not always nice.

Canada did bad things to people, you know.

And they mistreated their soldiers

and people should know that.

It's a part of history that should come out.

- You know, we've all done things that in the end

"What was I thinking? Why did I do that?"

And when you get this together on a bigger stage

with more people involved, things can get out of control.

And I think that's what happened

and certainly that's what happened with the Fruit Machine,

nobody wants to take ownership of it, now, you know.

The first time it ever became public

was in the book Men in the Shadows.

The first time anybody was ever interviewed about it, openly,

I was doing the interviews and the reactions I got,

people just, they'd rather not have that part,

it's just the dark corner of their history, kind of thing

you know, and how did I ever get involved in that?

But it's easy to fall into that kind of thing.

And I think it's a lesson that we have to be vigilant.

- And for sure, like anything, it's because we fight

that things change, because if we didn't talk about it

nobody would not even look at it.

- The people that are gay now should be happy in the military.

I'm happy for them, because I would love to be them.

Be happy.

Be who you are and be happy and think that people in the past,

maybe didn't have it so easy.

But if it helped to bring it ok now, it's good too.

- 59 years old and I'd go back.

Well, now I'm too old,

they don't want me. [Laughter]

- I was there to defend my country.

They knock at the door today and ask me if I would go and join,

to go in combat somewhere, as crazy as it may sound, I'd go.

- The other question was, if after all of this,

and I could go back to the army, would I?

I would, absolutely. On a dime.

No questions asked. With everything I know now.

With my experience. Yes. Yeah.

I miss it, I still miss it, I will always miss it.

- Well, if I had to do it all over again, I would.

No regrets. None.

And somebody said to me "You're getting old though,

are you afraid of dying?"

I said "No, I'm not afraid of dying, I'm only sorry."

Yeah.

Like, so much as happened and so much is going to come.

The good times are coming.

[♪ ♪ ♪]

- So these were the initial questions

that the government devised to try to help them determine

who was gay.

- They had a very weird way of looking at that.

Cause I'm looking at that and it wouldn't determine that

to me at all.

"I like adventure stories better than romantic stories?"

And that would say if someone was gay? Like, no.

[Laughter] They had weird stories.

"The thought of being in an automobile accident

is very frightening to me?"

That would show that somebody is gay? Like, pardon me.

[Laughter]

"I always tried to make the best school grades that I could?"

If somebody said that, there was an inkling they might be gay?

"I am inclined to take things hard?"

I don't know. But, who thought of this,

might be someone that's hiding that they're gay.

They don't want other people to know. [Laughter]