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[INTERVIEWER] SO WHEN DID YOU BECOME MAYOR OF WHITEWRIGHT, TEXAS?

[BILL GOODSON] 1984.

IN '84. 30 YEARS.

[INTERVIEWER] DID YOU KNOW THE MEADOR FAMILY?

[GOODSON] OH, YEAH, I KNEW ALL OF 'EM,

THE SISTERS, THE HIM, THE UNCLES, THE SON,

THE NEPHEW, THE WHOLE BUNCH.

[INTERVIEWER] AND HAD YOU SEEN THE TREASURES,

BEFORE THIS WHOLE CRAZY STORY BROKE?

[GOODSON] NO, IN FACT, NO ONE KNEW.

AND I WAS COMING IN FROM WORK,

AND I SEEN ALL THESE CAMERAS,

AND PICTURES AND PEOPLE RUNNING ALL OVER TOWN.

THEY SAID, "THEY WAITING ON YOU TO COME,"

AND I SAID "FOR WHAT?"

THEY SAID, "THEY JUST FOUND THE TREASURE IN TOWN."

I SAID, "WHAT? WHAT DO YOU MEAN, 'TREASURE'?"

AN ASTONISHING TURN TODAY

IN A TRAIL THAT LEADS FROM EUROPE IN THE FINAL DAYS OF WORLD WAR II

TO A SMALL DESOLATE TEXAS TOWN NEAR THE OKLAHOMA BORDER

AND PERHAPS TO A TREASURE TROVE OF MASTERPIECES.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

[WILLI KORTE] MY NAME IS WILLI KORTE,

AND WHAT I'VE BEEN DOING FOR A LIVING FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS

IS RECOVER STOLEN ART.

KLAUS GOLDMANN TOLD ME THAT AT THE END OF WORLD WAR II,

HALF OF THE TREASURE DISAPPEARED

DURING THE OCCUPATION BY THE AMERICANS,

AND THAT HE HAD SOME DOCUMENTS AND WHETHER I WAS INTERESTED

TO HAVE A LOOK AT IT AND COULD POSSIBLY RESEARCH

MORE ABOUT THIS STORY.

I MEAN, THE QUEDLINBURG TREASURES

OF COURSE, ARE TREMENDOUS RELIGIOUS, HISTORICAL VALUE.

IT'S NOT JUST ANOTHER PAINTING, YOU KNOW,

OR ANOTHER MUSEUM'S PIECE.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT HAS A HISTORY OF OVER 1,000 YEARS

AND-- AND, UM--

I COULDN'T THINK OF ANY OTHER CASE

THAT I COULD EVER PURSUE FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE

THAT WOULD HAVE THAT KIND OF SIGNIFICANCE.

[DR. CHARLES LITTLE] THE TREASURE WAS KNOWN TO ME

BECAUSE I'D VISITED QUEDLINBURG AS A GRADUATE STUDENT,

BUT KNOWING THAT PARTS OF IT HAD BEEN LOST DURING THE WAR.

MANY OF THE EARLIEST OBJECTS IN THE TREASURE,

A WONDERFUL IVORY COMB THAT IS VERY EXOTIC,

AND ITS CARVING ALMOST TOOK ON A RELIQUARY AND HOLY STATUS

AT A VERY EARLY DATE.

ONCE THEY ARRIVED IN QUEDLINBURG,

THESE OBJECTS TOOK ON THEIR OWN BEAUTY AND LIFE AND SANCTITY.

THERE'S A STORY FROM A SAINT'S LIFE,

WHERE A FAMOUS OTTONIAN WOMAN, HATHAMOTA,

HAD ONE OF THESE HANGING OVER HER BED,

AND THERE WAS A MIRACLE ASSOCIATED WITH IT,

SO THEY WERE SEEN AS ALMOST MIRACULOUS STUFF,

AND THEY WERE THINGS THAT, TO SOME EXTENT IN THE PRIVATE POSSESSION,

THESE QUEENS, THESE PRINCESSES, ET CETERA.

THEY'RE REALLY VERY, VERY PRECIOUS OBJECTS.

MOST BOOKS ARE COMPOSITE OBJECTS.

THEY COMPRISE ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT MATERIALS,

LIKE TEXTILES AND WOOD AND IVORY AND PARCHMENT,

AND OBVIOUSLY, MEDIEVAL MANUSCRIPTS

ARE A VERY SPECIAL CATEGORY

THAT CAN INVOLVE, YOU KNOW, PRECIOUS STONES,

AND GOLD AND METALS.

BUT WHEN THEY HAVE THESE FANTASTIC TREASURE BINDINGS ON THEM,

THE BOOKS CAN BE DIFFICULT TO HANDLE SAFELY

IN A WAY THAT PRESERVES BOTH THE COVER

AND THE ILLUMINATIONS INSIDE.

THESE ARE MEDIEVAL MANUSCRIPTS,

ARE OFTEN EXTRAORDINARY WORKS OF ART.

[KORTE] MY FATHER WAS IN THE PRECIOUS METAL BUSINESS,

AT THE END OF THE WAR, WHEN HE HAD TO FLEE

FROM DRESDEN UNDER SOVIET OCCUPATION,

HE HID A GOOD DEAL OF GOLD AND SILVER

BEFORE HE FLED,

SO ONCE GERMAN REUNIFICATION TAKES PLACE,

WE COULD GO BACK AND DIG UP THE TREASURES.

I GREW UP WITH THE IDEA

THAT THE FAMILY HAS A TREASURE

IN A PLACE THAT IS INACCESSIBLE

AND ONE DAY WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GO THERE

AND RECOVER IT.

AND I ACTUALLY WENT TO EAST GERMANY

TO RECOVER THE TREASURE BUT IT WAS GONE.

WELL, THIS IS THE NATIONAL RECORDS CENTER IN SUITLAND, MARYLAND.

AND AT THE TIME WHEN I DID THE QUEDLINBURG RESEARCH

IT ALSO HAD A READING ROOM FOR THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES

AND THE MILITARY RECORDS WHICH WERE THE ONES THAT WERE MOST RELEVANT

FOR MY RESEARCH WERE ACTUALLY IN THIS BUILDING,

SO THIS IS WHERE I DID ALL THE ESSENTIAL RESEARCH ON THE QUEDLINBURG CASE.

THE JOB THAT I INITIALLY HAD FROM KLAUS GOLDMANN

WAS TO GO THROUGH THE RECORDS OF THE U.S. MILITARY GOVERNMENT

PERTAINING TO THE KNOWLEDGE IN THOSE DOCUMENTS

AS FAR AS THE FATE OF THESE MISSING MUSEUMS,

BECAUSE THEY HAD EVACUATED PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING.

WHEN I STARTED THE RESEARCH IN '86,

WE STILL HAD A FULL-BLOWN EAST GERMANY.

SO I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT RECORDS EXISTED IN QUEDLINBURG.

AND THE ONLY PLACE I COULD GO TO WAS THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES

AND DO THE RESEARCH ON THE UNIT

THAT WAS IN QUEDLINBURG AT THE TIME

AND THEN FROM THERE TRY TO FIND OUT

WHO THE THIEF OR THE THIEVES COULD HAVE BEEN.

I NEEDED AND RECEIVED THE HELP OF KLAUS GOLDMANN,

WHO THEN INTRODUCED ME TO BILL HONAN

AT THE "NEW YORK TIMES."

BILL HONAN FROM THE "NEW YORK TIMES"

INITIALLY WAS RATHER SKEPTICAL OF THE WHOLE STORY,

BUT I THINK ONCE HE HAD ACCEPTED IT AS A CREDIBLE STORY,

HE GOT VERY EXCITED ABOUT IT,

AND WE WORKED VERY CLOSELY TOGETHER.

IT WAS REALLY A VERY PRODUCTIVE,

I THINK, TYPE OF SORT OF SECRET COLLABORATION FOR BOTH OF US,

AND I THINK WE DEVELOPED

A VERY SORT OF FRIENDLY TYPE OF COOPERATION.

SO I HAD TO GO BACK TO WASHINGTON,

AND WE DOCUMENT AND SIT HOURS AND HOURS IN THE ARCHIVES,

FOR WEEKS AND WEEKS.

THINGS LIKE THE QUEDLINBURG TREASURES,

WORKS OF ART,

ARE USUALLY STOLEN BY OFFICERS,

BECAUSE THEY HAD PRIVILEGED ACCESS TO PLACES.

YOU KNOW, IF THERE WAS A CASTLE FULL OF ARTWORKS,

THEY ARE THE ONES WHO COULD GO IN.

THEY ARE THE ONES WHO HAD THE OPPORTUNITY

TO PICK OUT THE PIECES AND THEY WOULDN'T BE SERIOUSLY QUESTIONED

IF THEY WOULD WALK OUT WITH SOMETHING,

BECAUSE I MEAN, THEY COULD BE TAKING IT TO HIGHER HEADQUARTERS

OR WHATEVER.

WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR

WAS INFORMATION PERTAINING TO THE DISCOVERY OF VALUABLES

IN OR AROUND QUEDLINBURG.

I HAD BEEN TOLD AT THE TIME,

THAT THE CITY MOVED ITS MOST VALUABLE POSSESSIONS

INTO THIS CAVE.

I WAS LOOKING FOR SOME INFORMATION IN THE MILITARY DOCUMENTS

THAT REPORTED THE DISCOVERY OF THE CAVE

AND TO FIND PROOF THAT THE AMERICANS HAD DISCOVERED THE CAVE,

AND SECONDLY FIND SOME DETAILS ON THE PARTICULAR UNIT, SMALLER UNIT,

THAT EITHER HAD DISCOVERED IT, REPORTED IT,

GUARDED, OR WHATSOEVER.

AND I READ DOCUMENTS LIKE THIS,

AND I THINK IT'S TIME TO, YOU KNOW, TURN THE PAGE,

AND THEN SOMEHOW, SOMETHING TELLS ME,

"ARE YOU SURE YOU READ EVERYTHING CAREFULLY?

THEN YOU HAVE TO READ THE WHOLE THING AGAIN."

SO IT'S VERY TIME-CONSUMING.

FINALLY I FOUND THIS ENTRY

FOR APRIL 20, 1945.

"CAVE AT" AND THEN COORDINATES ARE GIVEN,

"BIG ROOM, STATUES AND CRATES,

TWO ROOMS IN UPPER LEVEL, OIL PAINTINGS AND RECORDS,

FOURTH SQUADRON."

ONCE I HAD THESE COORDINATES,

I COULD THEN LOCATE THE SPECIFIC PLACE

THAT THESE COORDINATES REFER TO.

AND IT INDEED WAS RIGHT THERE

WHERE THE CAVE WAS IN QUEDLINBURG.

ONCE I'M IN THE ARCHIVES AND I HAVE A QUESTION IN FRONT OF ME,

AND-- AND IT DOESN'T GO VERY WELL, YOU KNOW.

I-- I KNOW THERE MUST BE SOMETHING SOMEWHERE.

I HAVE A TENDENCY TO NOT GIVE UP EASILY AND-- AND--

AND THAT KIND OF AN ATTITUDE I HAD AT THE TIME

WHERE I AT LEAST WANTED TO FIND OUT

WHO WAS IN QUEDLINBURG.

[MAN] SOLDIERS, SAILORS, AND AIRMEN

OF THE ALLIED EXPEDITIONARY FORCES,

YOU ARE ABOUT TO EMBARK UPON THE GREAT CRUSADE.

"THE COUNTRYSIDE IS PEACEFUL, GREEN,

ROLLING AND VERY LAZY-LOOKING IN GENERAL.

THERE'S A VERY NEAT LITTLE FARM OFF TO THE LEFT

WITH NEAT BARNS, HAYSTACKS THAT LOOK LIKE A BREAD PAN

FULL OF HOT BUNS OR A TOADSTOOL PATCH.

ON THE APPROACH FROM THE REAR,

ONE FINDS THAT THAT SWEET SMELLING HAYSTACK STINKS

WITH A JERRY ANTI-TANK GUN INSIDE.

WELL, THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED.

FIRE INCENDIARY AT THE HAYSTACK.

THEN WE HAVE ROASTED JERRY IN ABOUT 20 MINUTES."

[SPEAKING IN GERMAN]

[SPEAKING ENGLISH WITH GERMAN ACCENT]

[SPEAKING IN GERMAN]

WHEN AMERICAN BOMBARDMENT OF GERMANY

BEGAN IN ABOUT 1943,

HIMMLER, WHO HAD FALLEN IN LOVE WITH THEM

HAD THEM SECRETED IN THIS CAVE.

[INTERVIEWER] DIDN'T HIMMLER THINK THAT HE WAS THE REINCARNATION

-OF SOME PAST GERMAN KING? -YES, HE DID.

HE WAS QUITE A SCREWBALL

AND BELIEVED THAT HE WAS A REINCARNATION

OF HEINRICH I.

SHE SAID THE AMERICAN CAME AFTER THE WORLD WAR.

NO, THEY CAME TO FINISH THE WAR.

AND MY NATIVE TOWN IS ON THE ELBE.

AND FROM THE WEST, THE AMERICAN CONQUERORS--

THEY CAME TO TOWN OF WUNDER IN THE NIGHT.

AND THE HOUSE OF MY PARENTS IS UNDER TOWN WAR.

THEY NEEDED THIS HOUSE TO--

LOOK FOR GERMAN SOLDIERS.

AND THEREFORE WAS A MACHINE GUN IN OUR ROOM.

SO THEY WERE SITTING ON THE FLOOR

AND THEY READ IN A NEWSPAPER AND--

READ "ROOSEVELT IS DEAD."

AND THAT WAS THE NEWS ON 13 OF APRIL, '45.

TWO YEARS AFTER THE END OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR--

[SPEAKING IN GERMAN]

THE LIST OF THINGS STOLEN BY THE NAZIS

IS AS BROAD AS ANYONE CAN IMAGINE.

IF IT HAD MONETARY VALUE OR HISTORIC VALUE,

IT WAS STOLEN IF IT WASN'T DESTROYED BEFOREHAND.

THE MONUMENTS OFFICERS WERE THERE TO PROTECT IT

REGARDLESS OF WHAT COUNTRY IT CAME FROM,

INCLUDING THINGS THAT BELONGED TO GERMANY.

THEIR VIEW WAS DISPASSIONATE IN THAT REGARD,

DESPITE HAVING VERY STRONG PASSIONS

ABOUT THE HORRIFIC WAR CRIMES

THAT THEY WERE ALSO WITNESS TO.

HERE YOU HAVE THIS CONUNDRUM OF--

OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT

BEING ON THE SIDE OF THE HATED S.S.,

THE MOST BRUTAL ORGANIZATION

UNDER HITLER'S NAZI GERMANY.

WAS NOT A FRIENDLY ATTITUDE TOWARDS GERMANY AND THE GERMANS

RIGHT AT THE END OF THE WAR.

[NARRATOR] YOU WILL NOT BE FRIENDLY.

YOU WILL BE ALOOF, WATCHFUL, AND SUSPICIOUS.

EVERY GERMAN IS A POTENTIAL SOURCE OF TROUBLE.

THEREFORE, THERE MUST BE NO FRATERNIZATION

WITH ANY OF THE GERMAN PEOPLE.

[KORTE] LOOTING SPOILS OF WAR WAS GENERALLY ACCEPTED.

USUALLY THESE UNITS WERE STATIONED

IN LARGER BUILDINGS OUTSIDE CITIES,

SO THERE WERE OFTEN CASTLES AND ESTATES AND SO FORTH.

"I SENT HOME THE SECOND BOOK.

IT HAS A HAMMERED GOLD COVER

WITH SOME 80 JEWELS INLAID IN IT.

PLEASE STORE IT MOST CAREFULLY FOR ME, AS IT IS VERY VALUABLE."

[EDSEL] IN THE HISTORY OF WARFARE, TAKING OF SPOILS OF WAR

WAS A COMMONLY ACCEPTED PRACTICE.

IN FACT, ARMIES SOMETIMES PAID THEIR SOLDIERS

BY ALLOWING THEM TO TAKE THE THINGS

THAT THEY COULD WALK AWAY WITH.

THAT'S WHAT MAKES WORLD WAR II

SUCH A DEMARCATION LINE

WITH HOW WARS HAVE BEEN FOUGHT IN THE PAST.

THAT YOU HAD THE WESTERN ALLIES

THROUGH GENERAL EISENHOWER'S ORDERS

STIPULATE THAT THIS POLICY WAS GONNA BE DIFFERENT

THAN HOW THINGS HAVE WORKED IN THE PAST.

THESE WORKS OF ART AND CULTURAL TREASURES WERE NOT GONNA BE TAKEN,

AND IN FACT, AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF RESOURCES

WERE GONNA BE PUT INTO PLACE TO TRY AND IDENTIFY

WHO THE RIGHTFUL OWNERS WERE AND GET THEM BACK.

[KORTE] THE FIRST THING THEY DID, THEY GO INTO THE BASEMENT

AND SEE WHAT'S IN THE WINE CELLAR.

AFTER THE COGNAC AND THE RED WINE IS GONE,

THEN THEY GO UPSTAIRS AND THEY PICKED OUT SOMETHING

WHICH THEY TOOK HOME FOR MOTHER AS A SOUVENIR.

AND IT WAS ONE PIECE.

NOW, JOE, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY WANTED TO TAKE MORE

THAN JUST ONE SOUVENIR FOR MOTHER.

HE WAS ON A DIFFERENT LEVEL.

WELL, IMAGINE PEOPLE GOING INTO QUEDLINBURG,

WHICH WAS NOT DAMAGED BY THE WAR,

AND THE PRIMARY DRAW OF PEOPLE GOING INTO THE CHURCH

ARE THESE GREAT RELICS THAT ARE GONE, STOLEN,

AND EVEN WORSE, BY AMERICAN FORCES.

BUT IT BRINGS SHAME ON THE AMERICAN ARMY AND SOLDIERS

THAT ONE SOLDIER WOULD CHOOSE TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

WHICH IS WHY THE SOLDIERS THAT WERE ABLE TO BE IDENTIFIED

RIGHT AT THE END OF THE WAR WERE SO SEVERELY PUNISHED.

IT WAS TO SEND A MESSAGE, "THIS ISN'T GONNA BE TOLERATED."

OUR CULTURAL TREASURES, OUR HERITAGE AS A CIVILIZATION

THAT DEFINES WHO WE ARE

IS ONE OF THE REASONS THEY WERE FIGHTING.

SO THE FACT THAT ONE OF THESE SOLDIERS

WOULD HAVE STOLEN STUFF

FROM SO MANY OTHER MILLIONS OF TROOPS

WHO WERE RISKING LIVES TO TRY AND PROTECT

AS PART OF THEIR OVERALL MISSION

IS DISRESPECTFUL AND OFFENSIVE

TO EVERY ONE OF THE TROOPS THAT SERVED

AND IN PARTICULAR, THOSE THAT DIDN'T COME HOME

BECAUSE THEY'RE BURIED IN EUROPE.

"I'M PERFECTLY HAPPY THAT THE BOOK GOT HOME.

IT IS A VERY VALUABLE THING, SO CARE FOR IT.

THERE'S ONE MORE ON THE WAY SOMEWHAT LIKE IT.

ALSO A CHEST OF THE SAME TYPE,

EXCEPT THE CHEST HAS A BUNCH OF IVORY INLAY IN IT.

LIFE HERE IS MOST BORING.

NOTHING TO DO AT ALL.

ALL THE HIGH RANK TAKES ALL THE PASSES TO PARIS,

TO BRUSSELS, TO ANTWERP, TO ITALY, TO SWITZERLAND.

WE JUST SIT HERE IN THE WOODS

GOING NUTS SLOWLY."

YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT DURING THE COLD WAR

WE HAD NO REAL CHANCE TO SPEAK

WITH THE SOVIET UNION

OR WITH THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA OR GREAT BRITAIN

OR FRANCE ABOUT THE RETURNING OF TREASURES

WHICH WERE STOLEN DURING THE WAR.

AND I BELIEVE, PERSONALLY I BELIEVE ALSO

THE G.D.R. GOVERNMENT HAD NO INTEREST--

NO INTEREST.

[KORTE] THE FOLKS OF QUEDLINBURG

COMPLAINED AT THE END OF THE WAR

THAT NUMEROUS PIECES WERE MISSING

EVER SINCE THE AMERICANS WERE IN TOWN.

SO THERE WAS THIS ORIGINAL LIST THAT I HAD OF THE PIECES

THAT WERE MISSING FROM QUEDLINBURG.

YOU HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND WHEN I DID THE RESEARCH

I COULDN'T GET ANY RESEARCH DONE IN QUEDLINBURG

WHICH WAS EAST GERMANY.

ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THE CHURCH

WAS TRYING TO KEEP A LOW PROFILE

BECAUSE THEY FEARED THAT THE GOVERNMENT

WOULD REMOVE THE REMAINING PIECES

AND PUT THEM IN A MUSEUM.

THE CHURCH WAS ALWAYS FEARFUL THAT THEY WOULD LOSE

THE REMAINING PIECES.

[BRECHT] IN THE BEGINNING IT WAS VERY RISKY FOR EVERYBODY.

MY FAMILY AND ME, WE WERE OBSERVED FOR SEVERAL MONTHS.

AROUND OUR HOUSE WE HAD CARS WITH OFFICIALS

OF THE SECRET SERVICE, OF THE G.D.R.

AND PEOPLE WHO CAME TO ME WERE CONTROLLED BY THEM.

AND-- I FOUND ALSO IN MY FILE

OF THE SECRET SERVICE

THAT THEY HAD A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WERE RESPONSIBLE

TO DELIVER INFORMATION ABOUT MY PRIVATE LIFE, MY CONTACTS,

AND ALL MY ACTIVITIES.

[MARTINA PEETZ] I CAME HOME FROM SCHOOL BY BUS,

AND MY BOYS, 14 AND 10,

WERE STILL SITTING IN FRONT OF THE TELEVISION.

AND I SAID, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?

WHY AREN'T YOU IN BED?"

AND GEORG, MY ELDER SON SAID, "WELL, THE BORDER IS OPEN.

SO THEY WERE SITTING AND WATCHING THIS,

AND I WAS SITTING AND WATCHING THIS.

I COULDN'T REALLY BELIEVE IT

BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T PREPARED FOR THAT.

AND IT WENT SO-- THAT IT WENT SO FAST. IT WENT TOO FAST.

IT WAS IN MY OFFICIAL JOB

TO CHECK WHERE ARE OUR OBJECTS OF THIS MUSEUM.

THEREFORE, I HAD TO CHECK WHAT REALLY HAPPENED

AT THE END OF THE WAR.

I FOUND THAT MANY, MANY PUBLISHED STORIES,

THEY ARE PURE LIES.

AND NOW IT WAS AN OPEN QUESTION,

"WHERE CAN IT BE THEN?"

[KORTE] SO I TRIED TO PUZZLE IT TOGETHER

FROM THE RECORDS IN THE ARCHIVES.

UNFORTUNATELY, THOSE RECORDS WERE NOT MAINTAINED.

THESE RECORDS DON'T COME WITH ROSTERS.

SO I STILL DIDN'T KNOW WHO SERVED AT THAT TIME

IN WHICH UNIT.

THE PLACE TO GO TO FOR PERSONNEL-RELATED INFORMATION

IS NOT IN WASHINGTON, BUT IS IN ST, LOUIS.

SO I WENT TO ST. LOUIS WITH THE HOPE OF FINDING

THE ROSTERS FOR THESE UNITS.

I COULDN'T JUST CALL THEM UP.

I DIDN'T SAY, "LISTEN, DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING

ABOUT THE QUEDLINBURG TREASURE AND WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM?"

BECAUSE I NEVER KNEW WHO I WAS TALKING TO.

I COULD HAVE CALLED UP ONE OF THE THIEVES.

THAT WAS BEFORE THE INTERNET.

ANYTHING I WANTED TO FIND OUT I HAD TO CALL PEOPLE UP.

I HAD TO SEND THEM FAXES.

I HAD TO DRIVE BECAUSE I DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY

FOR AN AIRPLANE TICKET.

SO I DROVE DOWN THERE AND SLEPT IN MY CAR...

AND COME BACK EMPTY-HANDED.

THIS WAS MY FIRST CONTACT WITH WILLI IN THIS CASE.

AND HE WAS DRIVEN, HE DROVE ME.

HE'S VERY GOOD AT GETTING PEOPLE TO DO WHAT HE WANTS.

HE WAS PASSIONATE ABOUT SOLVING THIS CASE.

IT BECAME PRETTY TIME-CONSUMING,

AND PRETTY-- PRETTY FRUSTRATING,

AND I'M NOT SURE HOW MUCH LONGER

I COULD HAVE CONTINUED IF THAT SAMUHEL GOSPEL

WOULDN'T HAVE SHOWN UP.

IT HAD BEEN A 10-YEAR-LONG EFFORT

OF JOE TOM MEADOR'S BROTHERS AND SISTER

TO SELL THIS MATERIAL, AND TO FIND A BUYER FOR IT.

THEY SHOWED THESE THINGS TO 10 PRIVATE DEALERS

AND ALSO CHRISTIE'S, THE ART AUCTION HOUSE.

[INTERVIEWER] AND CHRISTIE'S DIDN'T THINK

IT WAS NECESSARY TO ALERT THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT?

IT IS OUTRAGEOUS, IN MY VIEW, BUT THAT IS THEIR OPINION.

AND SO AFTER HAVING KEPT THESE TREASURES,

TWO OF THE MOST VALUABLE OF THEM, THE MANUSCRIPTS,

FOR NEARLY HALF A YEAR

AND DETERMINING BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT

THAT THIS WAS STOLEN PROPERTY,

WHAT DID THEY DO? DID THEY DO WHAT YOU AND I WOULD DO,

WHICH IS CALL THE POLICE? OR AT LEAST NOTIFY THE GERMANS,

AS YOU SUGGESTED? NO, THEY DIDN'T.

THEY SURREPTITIOUSLY RETURNED THEM TO THE PRESUMPTIVE THIEF.

S-A-M-U-H-E-L, SAMUHEL.

SO IT'S SPELLED IN AN ODD WAY,

BUT THAT'S JUST ONE PAGE OF IT.

AND IT'S JUST WONDERFUL.

LATER CAROLINGIAN-- GOSPEL BOOK.

SO EACH GOSPEL, MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE AND JOHN

HAS A PREFACE OF THE EVANGELIST

SITTING THERE WRITING HIS GOSPELS.

THE WORLD IS SMALL WHEN IT COMES TO THINGS LIKE THIS.

'CAUSE THERE ARE ONLY SO MANY SPECIALISTS

WHOSE OPINIONS MIGHT MATTER

IF A FAMILY IS TRYING TO SELL--

OR GET AN APPRAISAL OF AN ILLUMINATED MEDIEVAL MANUSCRIPT, FOR EXAMPLE.

NOT TO SPEAK OF ONE AS VALUABLE

AS THE GOSPELS OR THE OTHER WORKS

THAT WERE A PART OF THE QUEDLINBURG TREASURES.

THE PRICE TAG HAS BEEN PUT ON THEM.

THEY ARE SAID TO BE WORTH MORE THAN $200 MILLION.

THEY WERE SAID TO BE WORTH MORE THAN A VAN GOGH PAINTING

AND THEY'RE JUST EXTRAORDINARILY VALUABLE.

MY WIFE, WHO IS A RELIGIOUS PERSON,

THINKS THAT I'M, YOU KNOW,

A PERSON SORT OF LACKING FAITH.

I SAID, "LISTEN, DON'T WORRY ABOUT MY FAITH,

I THINK I'M CLEARLY A PERSON OF FAITH,"

BECAUSE CERTAIN THINGS HAPPENED ALONG THE WAY

IN THE QUEDLINBURG CASE THAT WERE HIGHLY UNEXPECTED.

AFTER THE SAMUHEL GOSPELS HAD REAPPEARED,

I WAS GOING TO GO TO SEE MR. FOLTER AT H.P. KRAUS

TO WHOM THE SAMUHEL GOSPELS HAD BEEN OFFERED.

AND I WANTED TO HAVE A WITNESS WITH ME

BECAUSE MR. FOLTER COULD HAVE TOLD ME ANYTHING

AND AFTERWARDS COULD HAVE DENIED EVERYTHING.

[KLINE] BILL HONAN HAD HEARD ABOUT THE RUMORS OF REAPPEARANCE

OF THE QUEDLINBURG TREASURES,

AND HE REFERRED WILLI KORTE TO ME.

SO WILLI SEARCHED FOR THE TREASURES,

AND I TRIED TO MAKE SURE THAT NO MISTAKES WERE MADE

AND THAT A LEGAL CLAIM COULD BE BROUGHT IF HE FOUND THEM.

[KORTE] I WENT BACK TO FOLTER AND SAID,

"LISTEN, IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE YOU CAN TELL ME?"

THEN, I GUESS, FOLTER THOUGHT,

"WELL, I MEAN, THE STORY'S OVER,

SO THERE'S NOTHING FOR ME TO GAIN OR LOSE ANYMORE."

HE GAVE ME A COPY OF THE LETTER THAT HE HAD RECEIVED

FROM THE BANK OFFERING HIM THE TWO MANUSCRIPTS.

OF COURSE, IT WAS ANONYMOUS,

SO I DIDN'T KNOW FROM WHOM THE LETTER CAME.

AND THEN FOLTER HELPED ME FURTHER

BY OPENING AN ATLAS WITH A MAP OF TEXAS

AND THEN PUTTING A PENCIL UNDERNEATH THE NAME OF WHITEWRIGHT.

I GOT ON THE NEXT PLANE AND FLEW TO DALLAS,

DROVE INTO WHITEWRIGHT.

I STOOD IN FRONT OF THE BANK.

AND THE QUESTION WAS, "HOW DO I GO INTO A BANK

AND SAY, 'LISTEN, I'M LOOKING FOR THE QUEDLINBURG TREASURE.'"

THEY TOLD ME I HAVE TO GO DENISON.

SO I DROVE TO DENISON.

WE WERE UP IN JOHN FARLEY'S OFFICE ONE AFTERNOON

MAKING SOME PHONE CALLS

AND THE SECRETARY CAME UP AND SAID,

"YOU HAVE SOME VISITORS." AND IT WAS WILLI KORTE.

I INTRODUCED MYSELF AND WHAT I DID HAVE AT THE TIME

WAS THIS ARTICLE FROM THE "NEW YORK TIMES,"

THIS FRONT PAGE STORY.

[SYLVESTER] THE BUSINESS CARD HE GAVE US WAS--

JUST KINDA HAD A BUNCH OF SCRATCH THROUGH MARKS AND STUFF,

AND SO WE REALLY DIDN'T KNOW WHO THEY WERE.

[KORTE] THE GIVEAWAY WAS THAT I GAVE FARLEY THE ARTICLE

FROM THE "NEW YORK TIMES," THE FRONT PAGE STORY.

IT WAS ABOUT THE SAMUHEL GOSPELS.

AND THE WAY HE READ IT...

HE READ IT WITH INTEREST.

I WAS CONVINCED THAT HE READ IT

THE WAY SOMEBODY READS IT WHO HAS A CONNECTION

TO WHAT IT IS HE'S READING.

AND THEN HE CALLED IN SYLVESTER AND SAID,

"HEY, YOU GOTTA COME IN HERE AND LISTEN TO THIS STORY.

AND CLOSE THE DOOR."

WHEN THEY LEFT,

WE THOUGHT, "WE NEED TO COME UP WITH A PLAN,"

BECAUSE IT HAD BEEN IN THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS,

LIKE THAT MONDAY MORNING.

SO WE CONTACTED A LAW FIRM, HAYNES AND BOONE IN DALLAS.

WE HINTED AT WHAT IT COULD POSSIBLY BE,

AND COULD THEY POSSIBLY MEET WITH US?

THE ATTORNEY THAT SPECIALIZED IN ART WAS VERY EXCITED.

SHE SAID SHE HAD SEEN THE ARTICLE IN THE PAPER

AND IT MENTIONED WHITEWRIGHT, TEXAS.

SO AND SHE SAID, "I WONDERED WHEN SOMEBODY WOULD COME UP WITH THIS."

AND SHE NEVER DREAMED THAT SHE WOULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY

TO BE THE ATTORNEY WORKING ON THE CASE.

[KORTE] I SUBSEQUENTLY GOT A CALL

TO MEET WITH THE LAWYERS IN DALLAS,

WHO INITIALLY REPRESENTED THE BANK

AND THEN REPRESENTED THE BANK AND THE FAMILY.

AND I THINK I WAS SITTING ACROSS THE TABLE

WITH FOUR OR FIVE LAWYERS

WHO PRETTY MUCH TOLD ME,

"YOUNG MAN, THERE'S NOTHING REALLY HERE TO PURSUE.

THIS IS A LOST CAUSE."

AND THEY GAVE ME, I REMEMBER ALL KINDS OF--

ALL KINDS OF LEGAL EXPLANATIONS

WHY UNDER TEXAS LAW,

U.S. LAW, INTERNATIONAL LAW,

THERE WAS NOTHING THAT THE CHURCH

OR ANYBODY ELSE COULD REALLY SUCCESSFULLY PURSUE.

AND I LISTENED TO ALL THIS

AND I JUST SAID, "LISTEN TO ME,

THIS LOOKS LIKE JUST STOLEN PROPERTY. NOTHING ELSE."

BILL HONAN, OF COURSE, WAS STILL CONTINUING

THE RESEARCH ON THE THIEF,

SO HE WENT BACK TO WHITEWRIGHT AND DENISON

AND CONTINUED WHAT I HAD TO GIVE UP ON,

WHICH WAS ASKING PEOPLE "WHO AMONGST YOU

WAS A WORLD WAR II VETERAN WHO SERVED IN EUROPE?"

AND SO FORTH AND SO FORTH.

IT WAS A MATTER OF PURSING A WHOLE BUNCH OF LEADS,

A LOT OF TELEPHONING

AND THEN FINALLY TRIANGULATING,

YOU MIGHT SAY, WHERE I PICKED UP VARIOUS HINTS.

[LOUISA MARTIN] JOE DID GO TO NORTH TEXAS.

HE DID MAJOR IN ART.

SO HE HAD-- I DON'T KNOW THAT HE KNEW NECESSARILY

WHAT THESE THINGS WERE.

BUT HE KNEW THEY WERE PRETTY.

I MEAN, HE HAD GOOD TASTE. THERE IT IS.

AND I DON'T KNOW THAT HE KNEW THEY WERE THAT VALUABLE.

IT WASN'T LIKE, YOU KNOW, "I BROUGHT THEM HOME,

AND THEY'RE WORTH A MILLION DOLLARS," OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

IT WASN'T ANY OF THAT SORT OF THING.

IT'S JUST THAT'S THE WAY IT WAS.

[KAY BRYANT] JOE WAS SO HAPPY WITH HIS TREASURES

THAT HE WANTED REALLY TO SHOW THEM OFF.

BUT HE WAS AFRAID TO.

MOST PEOPLE DIDN'T HAVE ANY IDEA OF WHAT THEY WERE.

THEY WERE BEAUTIFUL,

BUT THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHERE THEY CAME FROM.

ONE DAY, THIS MAN CAME IN AND SAID HE WAS LOOKING

FOR A PICTURE OF JOE MEADOR.

AND I SAID, "WELL, SEEMS LIKE I REMEMBER SOMETHING IN OUR FILE.

LET ME GO SEE WHAT I HAVE."

SO I PULLED THE FILE OUT AND I FOUND--

I THINK THERE WERE THREE NEGATIVES OF HIM

HOLDING SOME ORCHIDS THAT HE GREW.

AND SO WE TALKED A LITTLE WHILE,

AND HE SAID HE WAS FROM NEW YORK

AND HE WAS DOING-- I REMEMBER THAT HE SAID

HE WAS DOING SOMETHING ON ORCHIDS.

I SAID, "WELL, I DON'T KNOW THAT WE WOULD NEED

THREE NEGATIVES OF THIS, SO HERE, YOU CAN TAKE ONE OF THEM

AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT BRINGING IT BACK."

'CAUSE HE WAS DEAD.

HE HAD DIED, ALREADY DIED, AND I COULDN'T SEE WHY

WE WOULD NEED A PICTURE OF A MAN WHO WAS DECEASED WITH AN ORCHID.

SO I GAVE HIM ONE OF THE NEGATIVES

AND THE NEXT DAY IT CAME OUT IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES."

THE REPORTER ASKED ME IF I HAD GONE TO SCHOOL WITH JOE TOM.

I WAS INCENSED. I SAID, "NO!

YOU WANT ME TO SMACK YOU?"

AND HE REALLY JUMPED BACK A LITTLE BIT,

AND SO AFTER THAT, SINCE I DIDN'T KNOW

THAT MUCH ABOUT THE WHOLE MEGILLAH IN THE FIRST PLACE,

I'M SURE HE THOUGHT, "CRAZY WOMAN."

WE WENT TO WORK THAT MORNING. EVERYTHING WAS FINE,

AND ALL OF A SUDDEN WE HAD ALL THESE NEWSCASTERS

BURSTING IN THE DOORS AND WANTING TO FILM IN THE BUILDING

AND ALL THIS, THAT AND THE OTHER.

IT GOT TO BE A MESS.

[GOODSON] AND THEN THERE WAS ONE PERSON THAT LIVED OUT IN WHITE ROCK,

WHICH IS A FEW MILES-- ABOUT FIVE MILES OUTTA HERE.

AND I KNEW HIM VERY WELL.

AND HE USED TO DRIVE JOE MEADOR TO DALLAS ALL THE TIME

AND I ASKED HIM, AND WE CALLED HIM "SKUNK,"

AND I SAID, "SKUNK," I SAID, "HAVE YOU HEARD ANYTHING

ABOUT THIS SO-CALLED TREASURE STUFF AROUND HERE?"

AND HE SAYS, "WELL, I SEEN SOME OF IT,

BUT I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS."

YOU SIT AROUND ALL THE TIME

WANTING SOMETHING BIG TO HAPPEN, YOU KNOW?

BIG MURDER CASE OR A BIG SOMETHING,

ROBBERY OR SOMETHING,

AND THEN WHEN IT HAPPENS YOU REMEMBER IT.

EVERYBODY KNEW JOE THOMAS. EVERYBODY KNEW MRS. MEADOR

AND THE MEADOR FAMILY, FOR PITY'S SAKES--

JACK, JEAN, EVERYBODY.

HE'S VERY WELL-EDUCATED. HE-- HE KNEW HIS WAY AROUND.

HE WAS WORLDLY.

BEFORE I GRADUATED, I WAS INVITED

UP TO HIS ONE-ROOM APARTMENT.

AND WHILE I WAS THERE, HE CASUALLY TALKED ABOUT

THE GERMAN JEWELS.

THEY WERE JUST OUT ON THE TABLES.

AND I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH WAS THERE.

THEY WERE THERE AND HE WAS VERY OPEN ABOUT SHOWING THEM.

HE HAD A LOT OF ART IN THE APARTMENT.

AND THERE WAS A PAINTING THAT SOMEBODY DID OF HIM

IN, I IMAGINE, THE EARLY '40S.

AND IT WAS LIKE A MILITARY-- HE WASN'T IN MILITARY GARB,

BUT IT SET THE STYLE FOR JOE--

ALL ALONG, HE WAS-- HE LIKED TO DRESS FANCY.

HE HAD BEAUTIFUL HAIR THAT HE KEPT PERFECTLY COIFFED.

AND-- ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I REMEMBER AS--

TOWARDS THE END OF HIS LIFE, AFTER HE HAD GOTTEN CANCER,

HE HAD TO GET A WIG.

BUT HIS WIG SORT OF WENT ASKEW.

AND WE VERY GENTLY TRIED TO STRAIGHTEN IT FOR HIM

WITHOUT HIM REALIZING.

BECAUSE HE WAS A SENSITIVE AND PROUD, PROUD MAN.

AND-- VAIN.

THIS IS SOME OF THE STUFF THAT [UNINTELLIGIBLE] PAINTED.

THEY WERE VERY ARTISTIC.

AND THAT-- THAT'S ONE OF HERS.

THAT IS NOT.

THAT IS.

AND BASICALLY ALL THIS OVER HERE

IS FROM THE MEADOR FAMILY.

GRANDMOTHER USED TO TEACH ART CLASS OUT HERE

IN THIS SHED BEHIND US.

MY GRANDMOTHER WAS VERY INTO PAINTING,

AND SHE WOULD PAINT CHINA.

SHE WAS ALWAYS PAINTING-- PAINTING SOMETHING.

THIS WAS THE STEP UP TO THE GREENHOUSE.

YOU HAVE THE-- THAT'S WHERE SHE TAUGHT

HER ART CLASSES IN THAT-- IN THAT BUILDING RIGHT THERE.

I GUESS THE BEST WAY TO DESCRIBE JOE

WOULD BE A RENAISSANCE MAN.

JOE WAS AN INTELLIGENT MAN.

DIDN'T SAY A LOT, BUT WAS THE KINDA GUY

THAT WHEN HE TALKED, YOU LISTENED.

OF COURSE, I WAS-- I WAS A LITTLE CHILD

AND SO I WAS RAISED TO LISTEN ANYWAY.

BUT HE-- HE WAS A VERY, VERY, VERY--

SEEMED LIKE HE HAD A LOT OF WISDOM.

HE ALWAYS WANTED TO BE THE BEST.

OR HE WANTED TO BUY THE BEST.

IF IT MEANT SAVING FOR A LONG TIME

TO BUY SOMETHING, HE WOULD DO THAT

TO GET THE BEST.

WITH HIS ORCHIDS,

HE TENDED THOSE ORCHIDS...

DAY IN, DAY OUT, ALL THE TIME.

ONE OF JOE'S PRIMARY PURPOSES DURING THAT TIME PERIOD

WAS TAKING CARE OF HIS MOM.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHY HE MOVED BACK HERE LATER IN LIFE--

SIMPLY TO TAKE CARE OF HER.

THEY WERE VERY, VERY CLOSE.

BUT I'M GONNA SAY SOMETHING AWFUL HERE.

AREN'T MOST GAY MEN?

[BRYANT] SOME PEOPLE DIDN'T LIKE TO THINK ABOUT THAT,

BUT HE WAS.

HE NEVER BOTHERED ANYBODY-- ANYBODY HERE IN WHITEWRIGHT.

AND THAT WAS HIS LIFESTYLE, AND THAT IS FINE, YOU KNOW,

HE'S A GROWN MAN. I DON'T--

WELL, IT'S JUST NONE OF MY BUSINESS

WHAT HE DOES ON THE WEEKEND.

HE WASN'T-- IT WASN'T EVER IN YOUR FACE.

IT WASN'T EVER, "I'M A GAY MAN AND HERE'S MY BOYFRIEND."

IT WAS JUST-- IT WAS VERY--

HE WAS VERY DISCREET WITH THAT.

[MATT COOK] I REMEMBER READING OR HEARING THAT JOE WOULD WALK AROUND

IN DISGUISES NOT TO BE SEEN,

AND DRESSED UP IN ODD CHARACTERS

AND THAT WAS SO FAR FROM THE TRUTH

THAT HE WAS THIS--

HAD THIS DUAL PERSONALITY OR DUAL LIFE.

NO, HE DIDN'T HAVE A DUAL LIFE.

HE WAS COMPASSIONATE, HE WAS TRUE TO HIS WORD.

FOR THEM TO MAKE HIM OUT AS THIS PERSON THAT THEY DID,

THIS GRAND ART CONNOISSEUR,

IT'S JUST-- IT'S IRRATIONAL.

IT'S IRRATIONAL AND IT'S NOT TRUE.

JOE SHOWED YOU WHAT HE WANTED TO SHOW YOU,

AND IN MANY CASES I THINK WHAT HE THOUGHT YOU WANTED TO SEE.

NOW, BILL HONAN ENDED UP GOING TO THE LIBRARY IN DENISON

WHERE THEY HAD THESE OBITUARIES,

AND THERE WAS JOE MEADOR'S OBITUARY.

SO BILL HONAN HAD A MOST LIKELY CANDIDATE,

BUT HE DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER JOE MEADOR WAS THE JOE MEADOR

WHO WAS IN THE UNIT IN THE ARCHIVES,

WHICH IS WHY HE ASKED ME,

SO HE COULD PUT ONE AND ONE TOGETHER

AND THEN HAVE A STORY.

I, AT THE SAME TIME, WAS NOW NEGOTIATING

WITH THE LAWYERS IN DALLAS

WHO WERE EAGER TO KEEP THIS ALL CONFIDENTIAL.

SO I HAD A SERIOUS PROBLEM.

SO ALL I GAVE TO BILL HONAN WAS THE INFORMATION

FROM THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES,

WHICH IS A MATTER OF PUBLIC RECORD ANYWAY.

I MEAN, HE COULD HAVE DONE IT HIMSELF.

I GAVE IT TO BILL WITH THE STRONG REQUEST

TO NOT RUN THE STORY UNTIL MONDAY.

OF COURSE, THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN,

PARTICULARLY WHEN IT'S A FRONT-PAGE STORY,

AND BILL RIGHTFULLY SAID, "WE DON'T WANT TO LOSE

THIS STORY TO ANYBODY ELSE,"

PARTICULARLY THE DALLAS PAPERS.

SO SURE ENOUGH...

WHEN WE WERE SUPPOSED TO MEET WITH THE LAWYERS ON FRIDAY,

WE HAD THE FRONT-PAGE STORY ON THE "NEW YORK TIMES,"

WHICH MEANT THE STORY WAS ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

WE HAD HALF OF THE COUNTRY'S MEDIA IN FRONT OF THE LAW FIRM.

AND I HAD REPORTERS FOLLOWING ME TO MY HOTEL ROOM,

STANDING IN FRONT OF MY DOOR

IN ORDER TO GET A FOLLOW-UP STORY.

SO WE ALL GOT TOGETHER AT THE ADOLPHUS

WAITING FOR THE LAWYERS TO TAKE US TO THE WAREHOUSE

WHERE THE REMAINING PIECES WERE SUPPOSED TO BE,

INCLUDING A SECOND MANUSCRIPT,

WHICH WE WE WERE SUPPOSED TO PHOTOGRAPH

AND SEND THE PHOTOS TO QUEDLINBURG

SO THEY COULD IDENTIFY THE PIECES POSITIVELY.

SO WE WAITED AND WAITED AND WAITED.

EVERYBODY WAS SORT OF SCARED TO LEAVE

BECAUSE WE NEVER KNEW WHEN IT WAS TIME

TO NOW GO TO THE WAREHOUSE.

SO-- NOBODY WENT FOR DINNER OF ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

AND THEN I THINK SHORTLY BEFORE, WHAT, MIDNIGHT?

BILL HONAN CAME AND TOOK ME ASIDE AND SAID,

"WILLI, I'M GONNA RUN A STORY TOMORROW

ABOUT THE SECOND MANUSCRIPT, WHICH HAS JUST BEEN OFFERED

IN SWITZERLAND TO THE GERMANS."

[KLINE] WE SAW THAT A CULTURAL FOUNDATION OF THE STATES

HAD PURCHASED THE SECOND BOOK,

AND SO WE FELT THAT WE WERE DEALING WITH PEOPLE

WHO WERE CAPABLE OF ANYTHING--

TO SELL A BOOK WHILE WE WERE NEGOTIATING OVER IT,

IN FACT, HAD HAD AGREEMENT ABOUT IT.

AND SO WE THOUGHT WE HAD TO TAKE LEGAL ACTION.

[KORTE] SO I WAS ABLE TO REACH MINISTER GOSSLAU IN QUEDLINBURG

FROM DALLAS, TEXAS, AND EXPLAIN TO HIM

WHAT WAS GOING ON.

I SAID, "LISTEN, WE NEED TO GO TO COURT ON MONDAY,

AND I NEED YOUR AUTHORIZATION."

SO HE BASICALLY ASKED ME, "WHAT DO YOU THINK I NEED TO DO?"

I SAID, "YOU NEED TO AUTHORIZE ME."

[SPEAKING IN GERMAN]

AND HE SAID, "WELL, IF THAT'S WHAT YOU THINK I NEED TO DO,

THEN THAT'S WHAT I'LL DO."

AND THEN, OF COURSE, HE WAS A BIT CONCERNED ABOUT MONEY.

I SAID, "LISTEN, IT'S TOO LATE FOR THAT NOW."

SO I WAS NOW PROPERLY AUTHORIZED,

ON THE WEEKEND BEFORE WE WENT TO COURT.

BUT-- BUT OF COURSE WE HAD NO MONEY.

WE WENT TO THE COURTHOUSE AT 9:00 MONDAY MORNING

AND FILED A LAWSUIT,

AND THEN WE HAD THE HEARING WITH THE JUDGE

ABOUT THE TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER

BECAUSE NOW, OF COURSE, WE WERE EXTREMELY CONCERNED

THAT IF THERE WAS ANYTHING ELSE

IT WOULD QUICKLY LEAVE THE COUNTRY.

IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT FOR US TO GET THE DEPOSITIONS

UNDERWAY BECAUSE WE KNEW SO LITTLE ABOUT JOE MEADOR

AND THE FAMILY, AND THEIR WHOLE INVOLVEMENT IN THE CASE.

THERE WAS NO BASIS FOR TRUST

BETWEEN THE CHURCH AND THE TEXANS.

THEY WERE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WORLDS.

THE WALL HAD JUST COME DOWN.

THERE WAS REALLY NO COMMUNICATION

BETWEEN EAST AND WEST.

NO REASONABLE EXPECTATIONS.

THE EDUCATION WE HAD ABOUT EAST GERMANY WAS MINIMAL.

THE EDUCATION THEY HAD ABOUT THE WEST, I'M SURE, WAS ALL TWISTED.

THEY WERE VERY MOSCOW-ORIENTED.

WE WERE VERY WESTERN-ORIENTED IN THIS COUNTRY.

WHEN WILLI AND I SHOWED UP IN TEXAS, WE WERE VILIFIED, PARTICULARLY WILLI,

AND THEIR LAWYERS, THE LAWYERS FOR THE FAMILY,

WERE EXTREMELY HOSTILE.

OH, YEAH, WILLI KORTE.

[GROANS]

I DIDN'T REALLY REALIZE IT WAS GOING TO BE A DEPOSITION.

I WAS A LITTLE BIT-- LITTLE BIT ANNOYED.

I WAS A LITTLE BIT ANNOYED, AND I THINK WILLI PICKED UP ON THAT PRETTY BIG.

HE KEPT PACING BACK AND FORTH AND STANDING UP,

AND I'M GOING, "OH, LORD."

HUGE BIG LONG CONFERENCE TABLE.

GERMAN LAWYERS ON ONE SIDE,

OUR LAWYERS AND MYSELF ON THE OTHER.

AND IT WAS JUST QUESTION AFTER-- AND THEY WOULD--

THEY WOULD ASK A QUESTION AND YOU'D ANSWER

AND THEN THEY'D ASK IT IN ANOTHER WAY,

AND YOU'D ANSWER.

AND THEN THEY'D ASK IT IN ANOTHER WAY.

THE MAN FROM GERMANY, WILLI KORTE,

HE CONTACTED US.

I GOT A LETTER FROM SOMEBODY,

ONE OF THE PRIESTS OR SOMETHING IN GERMANY.

HE SAID, "IF YOU HAVE THESE THINGS, GOD WILL GET YOU."

AND I CALLED THE ATTORNEY AND I SAID, "YOU TELL HIM TO-- WHERE HE CAN PUT IT."

WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO TELL? I DON'T KNOW WHERE IT'S AT. I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.

I DON'T KNOW HOW IT GOT THERE. I DON'T KNOW WHEN THEY DECIDED TO DO THIS.

THERE WAS NEVER A BASIS FOR TRUST BETWEEN US AND THE FAMILY.

ONE OF THE FAMILY MEMBERS CAME OUT AND SAID TO ME--

"A ONE-EYED ASS COULD'VE FOUND THOSE TREASURES."

THEY ASKED WHERE I GOT THE STUFF,

WHEN DID HE GIVE ME THE STUFF,

WHAT DID HE TELL ME ABOUT THE STUFF?

IT ABSOLUTELY WORE JEAN AND JACK OUT.

AND OF COURSE, AND MOM, TOO.

THEY WERE-- THEY WERE UP IN AGE AT THAT TIME.

AND I HONESTLY DO NOT-- WELL, MATTER OF FACT,

I CAN PRETTY VEHEMENTLY SAY THAT IF THEY HAD KNOWN

THE FIRESTORMS THEY WOULD HAVE CAUSED,

THIS WOULD HAVE-- THIS CAUSED--

THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TOUCHED IT,

'CAUSE IT WAS A MESS.

I MEAN, IT WAS-- IT WAS A MESS.

AND IT WASN'T JUST A MESS FOR A MINUTE,

YOU KNOW, MAMA'S-- MAMA'S TALKING ABOUT IT IF I--

I COULD GO TO PRISON. I'M LIKE, "WELL, WHAT'S--

FOR WHAT?"

THE STORY THAT I UNDERSTOOD WAS THAT HE HAD--

THE PRIEST AT THE CHURCH HAD APPROACHED HIM

AND ASKED HIM TO GET THIS GROUP OF VALUABLES OUT OF THE COUNTRY,

AND THAT HE WOULD GET WITH HIM LATER AND GET THEM BACK.

[CADENHEAD] THIS IS WHERE PAGE BY PAGE,

YOU SLOWLY GET TO SEE THE DEPTH OF THE MAN.

AS CHAOTIC AS IT WAS,

PERHAPS FOR HIM TO TAKE ALL OF THIS

FROM QUEDLINBURG, GERMANY FOR WHATEVER REASON--

IN HIS OWN MIND, YOU KNOW, I CAN SEE IT.

I CAN SEE IT IN HIS PERSONALITY

THAT HE REALLY BELIEVED IT.

HE REALLY BELIEVED IN HIS OWN MIND,

THAT HE WAS SAVING PART OF CIVILIZATION.

[DICK DEQUERIN] HE WAS AN INTERESTING FELLOW.

I NEVER KNEW HIM, BUT EVERY DESCRIPTION

OF JOE MEADOR WAS THAT HE WAS VERY AESTHETIC,

AND APPRECIATED THE HISTORICAL VALUE

AND BEAUTY OF THE THINGS HE TOOK.

BUT HE DID TAKE THEM.

THIS IS NOT REALLY LIKE WAR BOOTY,

LIKE CAPTURED GUNS OR UNIFORMS OR HELMETS OR THINGS LIKE THAT.

THIS WAS REAL TREASURE.

AT THE END OF THE WAR, WHEN HE WAS IN THE SOUTH OF FRANCE

AND STOLE SILVERWARE. FOR THAT, HE GOT COURT-MARTIALED.

SO, WAS HE A PATHOLOGICAL THIEF?

OR WAS IT THIS SORT OF ATTITUDE

THAT THE SPOILS OF WAR GO TO THE VICTOR?

I DON'T KNOW.

THE WITNESS ACCOUNTS WE GOT WERE THAT HE WAS A STEP BEYOND

THE NORMAL SOUVENIR HUNTING.

HE HAD BEEN EDUCATED IN ART.

HE TAUGHT ART WHEN HE CAME HOME.

HE OPERATED THIS SMALL HARDWARE STORE WITH HIS BROTHER.

WE HAD THIS IMPRESSION THAT HE AND HIS BROTHER

HAD SEPARATE DESKS AT THIS HARDWARE STORE,

AND SEPARATE ENTRANCES AND SEPARATE SAFES,

'CAUSE THE BROTHER DISAPPROVED

OF HIS HOMOSEXUALITY.

IN THE PICTURES THAT YOU SEE OF HIM,

LIKE FROM, "TEXAS MONTHLY," SHOW A VERY COMPLEX,

INTELLIGENT, WELL-EDUCATED PERSON.

WAS TORMENTED, APPARENTLY, ABOUT THESE TREASURES.

TRIED TO KEEP THE QUEDLINBURG TREASURES TOGETHER,

BUT MAYBE LIVED OFF OTHER THINGS HE STOLE.

HE DIDN'T NECESSARILY TALK ABOUT IT,

BUT HE HAD WRITTEN EXTENSIVELY...

LETTERS HOME,

IF NOT DAILY, WEEKLY, THE WHOLE ENTIRE TIME HE WAS IN THE WAR.

AND WE HAD READ THOSE LETTERS OVER THE YEARS.

I MEAN, THEY WERE THERE. THEY WERE BEAUTIFUL LETTERS.

HE WAS VERY DESCRIPTIVE IN HIS WRITING.

AND I'D READ A LETTER AT SOME POINT IN THE GAME

THAT HE HAD MAILED HOME SOME OBJECTS.

"PUT 'EM UP, AND I'LL TAKE CARE OF IT WHEN I GET HOME."

AND THEY CAME IN A WOODEN BOX WITH BROWN PAPER AROUND IT.

AND AFTER EVERYBODY DIED, THE BOX WAS STILL IN THE ATTIC.

I MEAN, WE FOUND IT, AND IT WAS WRITTEN ON,

HE'D WRITTEN ON THIS WOODEN CRATE.

THAT'S APPARENTLY HOW JOE GOT THESE THINGS BACK TO TEXAS.

HE MAILED THEM.

[BETH COOK BARNES] TWO BOOKS, A BOX, YOU KNOW, IT HAD SOME OTHER THINGS

ON THE BOX UP IN THE ATTIC.

YOU KNOW, I DON'T EVEN KNOW-- I DON'T EVEN KNOW

WHAT HAPPENED TO IT.

SO IF HE MAILED THINGS, THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN THINGS

THAT WERE MAILABLE--

IN OTHER WORDS, IT'S HIGHLY UNLIKELY

THAT HE MAILED LARGE SIZE PAINTINGS.

[DEGUERIN] I'M NOT TRYING TO JUSTIFY WHAT JOE MEADOR DID,

BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE DOING THINGS LIKE THAT.

AND HE BUNDLED THIS UP, AND SENT IT BACK.

YOU KNOW, THE U.S. ARMY, THEY COULD HAVE TAKEN

A LOOK AT IT TO SEE WHAT IT WAS.

AND MAYBE THEY DID, AND JUST DIDN'T CARE.

THERE WERE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT WERE INVOLVED IN THIS.

HE COULDN'T HAVE DONE IT BY HIMSELF,

AND DIDN'T DO IT BY HIMSELF.

THAT'S NOT TO CAST BLAME ON ANYONE ELSE,

IT'S JUST, IT'S A FACT.

[CADENHEAD] I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WOULD HAVE DONE,

BUT I VERY WELL MIGHT HAVE DONE THE SAME THING.

BUT I CAN'T JUSTIFY WHAT JOE DID.

AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A CATHEDRAL,

A CHURCH, A THOUSAND-YEAR-OLD COLLECTION.

IT JUST GOES ON AND ON.

I KNEW THAT MY EFFORTS HAD BEEN SOMEWHAT SUCCESSFUL

IN FLUSHING OUT THE SECOND MANUSCRIPT, SO TO SPEAK,

BUT IT WAS IN SWITZERLAND,

SO THERE WAS NOTHING ELSE TO DO IN DALLAS.

NOW THAT LEFT ME WITH THE REMAINING PIECES,

WHICH INDEED I STILL HADN'T SEEN.

SO BY THEN WE HAD A TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER

ON SOMETHING I HAD NO IDEA WHAT IT WAS.

SO THAT'S WHY THEN WE WENT TO--

WHEN WE FINALLY WENT TO DENISON TO THE BANK

WITH THE FEDERAL MARSHALS,

ALL THE EXCITEMENT AND TENSION

WAS BACK ON MY SHOULDERS,

BECAUSE NOW IT WAS THE MOMENT OF TRUTH

WHETHER WHAT FARLEY WAS BRINGING UP IN HIS CARDBOARD BOX

FROM THE FILE CABINET, NOT FROM-- NOT FROM THE SAFE,

BUT FROM THE FILE CABINET WHERE HE HAD KEPT IT--

WAS ACTUALLY ANYTHING-- IT HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH QUEDLINBURG.

THE JUDGE HAD AN APPROVED LIST OF PEOPLE

WHO WERE ALLOWED TO ATTEND THE INSPECTION.

AND SO WE HAD ALL THESE ATTORNEYS

REPRESENTING THE MEADORS,

WE HAD OUR ATTORNEYS REPRESENTING THE BANK,

AND THEN WE HAD WILLI KORTE AND THE ATTORNEYS

REPRESENTING THE GERMAN CHURCH.

THEY BROUGHT ART HANDLERS WHO WORE ALL THESE WHITE GLOVES

AND THEY VERY DELICATELY HANDLED ALL THESE ARTIFACTS.

THEIR INTENT WAS TO VERIFY THAT THESE WERE INDEED

THE TREASURES THAT WERE IN QUESTION.

AND OUR QUESTION WAS, WELL, JUST BECAUSE THEY SAY

THESE ARE THE TREASURES, HOW DO WE KNOW IT REALLY IS?

WHAT PROOF DO WE HAVE THAT THEY HAVE A CLAIM?

AND AS IT TURNED OUT, THEY BROUGHT A NOTEBOOK

THAT HAD 8X10 BLACK AND WHITE PHOTOGRAPHS

THAT WERE TAKEN BY THE GERMANS

BEFORE THE U.S. AND ALLIED OCCUPATION OF GERMANY

THEY KNEW THAT WAS COMING, AND TO PROTECT ART,

THEY PUT ALL THIS IN A CAVE,

AND THEY INVENTORIED IT

AND THEY TOOK PICTURES OF EACH ITEM.

[KORTE] THE BIG BOX WAS WRAPPED.

SO THEY TOOK IT OUT OF THE BOX,

AND THE GUY THEN UNWRAPPED IT AND IT SAT THERE.

THE PHOTOGRAPHER TOOK ALL THESE MULTIPLE PHOTOGRAPHS

FROM ALL DIFFERENT SIDES.

AND OF COURSE, EACH TIME THE FLASHLIGHTS WENT OFF,

SO IT-- IT REALLY PUT THIS-- IT PUT THE RELIQUARY

IN THIS SORT-- THIS FLASHING, GLOWING BRIGHT LIGHT

AS IF IT HAD SORT OF LIKE A PHOENIX,

COME OUT OF THE ASHES, AND REVEAL ITSELF.

YOU KNOW, SOMETHING LIKE WE HAVE IN SOME OF THESE MOVIES

WHEN SOMETHING MIRACULOUSLY APPEARS.

[LITTLE] I WAS ABSOLUTELY FLABBERGASTED

AT THE QUALITY AND BEAUTY OF THESE OBJECTS.

HERE IS SOMETHING YOU THOUGHT HAD BEEN LOST TO HISTORY,

BUT HERE THEY WERE BROUGHT BACK TO LIFE,

BECAUSE THEY'D SURVIVED.

[SYLVESTER] ONCE WILLI SAW, HE KNEW THAT HE HAD FOUND THE TREASURES.

AND IT WAS KINDA INTERESTING TO WATCH HIS REACTION

AND I MEAN, YEARS AND YEARS OF WORK.

AND EVERYTHING WAS COMING TO FRUITION.

HE WAS ALMOST GIDDY TO-- TO ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO SEE IT

AND TOUCH IT AFTER ALL THE WORK HE HAD PUT IN.

AND I COULD UNDERSTAND THAT.

THE TREASURES CAME OUT OF THE BOX AND WE SAW

THAT WE REALLY HAD FOUND THE QUEDLINBURG TREASURES,

AND WE SHARED A LITTLE PRIVATE HANDSHAKE--

THAT WE HAD REALLY DONE WHAT WE HAD SET OUT TO DO.

AND THAT WAS REALLY THE MOMENT THAT I HAD BEEN WAITING FOR

ALL THOSE YEARS, BASICALLY, BECAUSE NOW I HAD CONFIRMATION

THAT ALL THIS EFFORT, ALL THIS RISK

THAT WE ALL HAD TAKEN, HAD BEEN WORTH IT.

RIGHT OVER HERE, SEE THE DOOR?

AT THE BACK OF THE BANK JUST ACROSS THE STREET

IS WHERE THE MEADORS, AND THEIR LAWYER,

AND THEIR PEOPLE CAME OUT.

THEN THEY LOADED THEM IN THIS VAN

AND TOOK OFF TO DALLAS.

WE WERE KINDA GLAD TO SEE THEM GO.

WE WERE AFRAID SOMEBODY MIGHT HOLD THEM UP

OR SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, IN THE--

WHILE THEY WERE COMING OUT.

BUT ANYWAY, IT WAS JUST RIGHT ACROSS THE STREET.

WELL, WILLI AND I WENT TO GERMANY TOGETHER...

SEVERAL MONTHS LATER.

AND WE HAD A SERIES OF MEETINGS

IN BONN AND BERLIN,

QUEDLINBURG, MAGDEBURG, BECAUSE THE CASE

NEEDED TO BE REGULARIZED.

AND SO I WAS PRESENT AT THE MEETING

WHERE HE WAS FIRED FROM THE CASE.

I SPOKE WITH THE HEAD OF THE CULTURAL AFFAIRS DEPARTMENT

AT A TIME WHEN WE HAD REACHED THIS SORT OF LEVEL

WHERE I HAD BEEN TO TEXAS.

AND I SAID, "NOW WE HAVE TO GET SERIOUS ABOUT IT."

THEY TRIED TO DISCOURAGE ME.

THEY THOUGHT IT WAS POLITICALLY A BAD IDEA

TO DO THAT, MEANING TO--

FOR THE GERMANS TO PURSUE AN AMERICAN SOLDIER

AND ACCUSE HIM OF BEING A THIEF.

SO MY RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FOLKS

WHO HAD INITIALLY ENCOURAGED ME

AND SAID, "GO AHEAD, THAT WOULD BE INTERESTING,"

THEN WERE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO REALLY DIDN'T WANT TO DEAL WITH ME.

AFTER WILLI WAS FIRED, HE CONTINUED TO WANT TO TALK TO ME.

AND WE COMMUNICATED ONCE IN A WHILE

ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON WITH THE CASE,

BUT SINCE HE WAS NOT PART OF THE TEAM,

I COULDN'T SHARE CLIENT INFORMATION WITH HIM

OR CONFIDENCES OR STRATEGY.

AND I COULDN'T STOP HIM

FROM GOING TO THE PRESS.

WHEN WE SETTLED THE CASE, HE MADE IT KNOWN

THAT HE WAS NOT ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT THE SETTLEMENT.

SO I THINK HE MAINTAINED HIS OWN INDEPENDENT POSTURE.

I CAN'T SAY THAT I KNOW EVERYTHING HE WAS DOING, THOUGH.

[BRYANT] I WENT TO THE-- HIS FEDERAL TRIAL

THAT THEY HAD AT SHERMAN.

WE HAD AN OLD JUDGE UP THERE NAMED BROWN

AND HE ASKED THE PROSECUTOR,

"HOW COME YOU WAS THAT LONG GETTING IT DONE?"

SHE SAYS, "WELL, THERE WASN'T ANY RUSH ON IT."

THEY SAID, "YES, THEY ARE WITH THE STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS.

IT SAYS IT'S DONE RUN OUT."

HE DISMISSED THE CASE.

AND BOY, YOU TALK ABOUT SOME MIGHTY MAD,

THAT GAL WAS MAD.

SHE LOST HER CASE RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF EVERYBODY.

AND THE WHOLE TOWN WAS IN THAT COURTROOM JUST ABOUT.

THE STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS HAD RUN, AND THAT'S A LAW

THAT'S WRITTEN TO GUARD AGAINST

PROSECUTIONS

WHEN THE CASE HAS BECOME SO OLD

THAT THE WITNESSES HAVE LOST THEIR MEMORY

OR EVIDENCE IS HARD TO COME BY

OR MEMORIES FADE AND EVIDENCE GOES AWAY.

IT WAS NOT EASY. IT WAS A VERY CLOSE CALL.

BUT I'M PROUD TO SAY THAT HE DID

EXACTLY WHAT WAS RIGHT AND THE FIFTH CIRCUIT AGREED.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE-- AND HONAN DID IT,

HE SAID, "WELL, IT'S A TECHNICALITY."

BUT THE OLD-- THE OLD SAW AMONG LAWYERS IS,

"A TECHNICALITY IS A LAW THAT THE OTHER SIDE DIDN'T RESEARCH."

AND WE DID.

THE LAW IS THE LAW.

IT'S NOT A TECHNICALITY.

[BARNES] WELL, MOTHER ALWAYS LAUGHED AND SAID,

"THE BIG PICKLE BUILDING DOWNTOWN-- THE BIG BUILDING

DOWNTOWN DALLAS WITH THE GREEN LIGHTS ON, THAT WE BOUGHT FIVE FLOORS.

SO, YEAH, THE LAWYERS GOT A BIG CHUNK OF THAT.

AND THEN THE I.R.S. GOT A BIG CHUNK.

SO IT WASN'T AS LUCRATIVE AS IT LOOKS LIKE

ON PAPER, MAYBE.

JOE HAD GIVEN ME A HEART, A SILVER HEART.

AND-- I HAD A HOUSE DOWN IN EAST TEXAS THAT WE RENTED.

AND IT LAID ON THE COFFEE TABLE,

AND WAS DECORATION ON THE COFFEE TABLE

IN MY RENT HOUSE FOR ABOUT TWO YEARS.

AND WHEN I GOT THE CALL THAT SAID,

"HEY, THEY WANT ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING

THAT JOE'S EVER GAVE YOU OR ANYTHING THAT MIGHT BE--"

AND BY THAT TIME WE HAD A LIST OF WHAT THE ITEMS WERE.

AND THERE WAS A SILVER HEART LISTED.

AND SO I HAD TO CALL MY RENTER AND SAY,

"HEY, YOU KNOW, YOU MIGHT TAKE THAT HEART

AND PUT IT IN A DRAWER TILL I CAN GET DOWN THERE AND GET IT."

AND, YOU KNOW, AND IT HAD-- IT HAD A LITTLE CLOCK ON THE INSIDE,

AND I'D PUSH ON THE CLOCK, TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IT SAID.

AND-- NOW I PROBABLY DAMAGED THINGS I SHOULDN'T HAVE,

BUT, OH, WELL.

YOU KNOW, AND LIKE, ONE OF THE FINAL NUMBERS

WAS $354 MILLION DOLLARS.

AT ONE POINT THAT'S WHAT THEY SAID.

AND IT'S LIKE, "FOR THIS? WOW."

AND WE HAD IT ALL THESE YEARS. WHO KNEW?

WHO KNEW?

IT-- NORMAL PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THAT.

AND SO-- WE WERE NORMAL PEOPLE

AND WE HAD IT. SO IT'S LIKE HOW DO YOU--

HOW DO YOU EVEN WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND THAT KINDA NUMBER?

THOSE KINDS OF DECISIONS WOULD NOT BE MADE TODAY.

THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS FOR A GOVERNMENT

TO REWARD SOMEONE BY PURCHASING BACK THINGS THAT WERE STOLEN

CLEARLY FROM AN IMPORTANT CHURCH WITHIN THEIR COUNTRY.

I REALLY FELT LIKE THE WHOLE THING

WAS MEANT TO BE.

I FELT LIKE IT WAS MEANT TO BE RETURNED TO THE CHURCH

AND I FELT LIKE, EVEN THOUGH JOE MEADOR TOOK IT...

HE PROTECTED IT, AND MOST OF IT WAS RETURNED.

HAD IT FALLEN INTO OTHER--

I THINK HE HAD AN APPRECIATION FOR ART

AND BY HAVING THAT APPRECIATION,

HE PROTECTED IT,

AND IT DIDN'T--

HAD IT GONE TO SOMEONE ELSE,

WHO KNOWS WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED TO IT?

THERE WAS NO PHYSICAL DAMAGE AS I REMEMBER AT THE TIME.

I TOOK EXTENSIVE NOTES ON IT, BUT I THINK THERE WAS--

THE DAMAGE WAS MINIMAL

CONSIDERING THE HARSH TREATMENT THEY HAD.

IT WAS SURPRISING THEY DID SURVIVE SO WELL.

IT'S NOT LIKE WE WERE TRYING TO BE SNEAKY AND BE CROOKS,

AND GO AROUND AND MAKE A WHOLE BUNCH OF MONEY.

IT'S JUST-- THERE WERE SOME FINANCIAL ISSUES.

MAYBE THESE ARE WORTH SOMETHING

AND WE THINK THIS'LL HELP.

AND SO TO BE DONE,

SETTLED AND DONE, YEAH, YEAH.

HOW CAN YOU DESCRIBE SOMEBODY

THAT YOU DON'T KNOW?

YOU KNOW-- FROM WHAT YOU READ OR WHAT YOU HEAR?

IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE PERSON, WHAT GIVES YOU THE RIGHT

TO JUDGE THAT PERSON?

IT'S CALLED GOSSIP.

GOSSIP AND HEARSAY.

JUST MY OPINION.

THERE'S ALWAYS ANOTHER PART OF THE STORY.

I HAVE FOUND THAT FREQUENTLY

GOOD PEOPLE DO BAD THINGS,

AND THAT DOESN'T MAKE THEM BAD PEOPLE.

I HAVE AN ATTITUDE ABOUT THAT THAT EVEN THOUGH SOMEONE

MAY HAVE COMMITTED A CRIMINAL ACT

THAT THEY DESERVE CONSIDERATION

FOR THE WAY THAT THEY'VE LIVED THE REST OF THEIR LIVES.

IT WAS NOT-- NOT RIGHT THAT THIS YOUNG AMERICAN LIEUTENANT

TOOK THE THINGS FROM THE TREASURE.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE WERE SO MANY

DREADFUL THINGS THAT HAPPENED DURING THE WAR.

AND SO MANY PEOPLE LOST THEIR LIVES.

THAT-- OH, LET HIM TAKE THOSE OLD BIBLES.

AT LEAST I LIKE TO THINK ABOUT A PROGRESSION

OF CULTURE TO GREATER AND GREATER LEVELS OF HUMANITY,

IN SPITE OF WHAT WE LEARNED IN THE 20TH CENTURY.

AND I THINK THE CULTURAL EXPRESSIONS OF PEOPLE--

PRESERVING THEM AND APPRECIATING THEM,

TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THEM-- IS ONE WAY FOR US TO DO THAT.

SCHOLARS WHO HAVE STUDIED THE MOVEMENTS OF RELICS

HAVE NOTICED THAT SAINTS HAVE POWER OVER THEIR RELICS

AND THEY CAN MOVE WHEN THEY WANT TO.

THEY DON'T THINK THEY'RE GETTING

ENOUGH PRAYERS OR ENOUGH VENERATION

FROM THE LOCAL POPULACE

SO THEY WANT TO GO SOMEWHERE ELSE

WHERE THEY'RE GONNA BE MORE IMPORTANT

AND THEY CAN GO WHERE THEY WANT TO.

PEOPLE SAY, "WELL, WHY SHOULD I CARE ABOUT CULTURAL TREASURES?"

WELL, ONE, THEY BELONG TO YOU.

WHETHER THEY'RE IN IRAQ, WHETHER THEY'RE IN SYRIA,

WHETHER THEY WERE IN--

THE SOVIET UNION DURING WORLD WAR II,

THEY'RE THE SHARED CULTURAL TREASURE OF EVERYBODY,

WHICH IS WHY JOE TOM MEADOR'S THEFT

OF THE QUEDLINBURG TREASURES IS OFFENSIVE ON ALL LEVELS.

IT DIDN'T BELONG TO HIM.

IT DIDN'T BELONG TO THE UNITED STATES.

DIDN'T BELONG TO HIS FAMILY.

AND IT REALLY DOESN'T BELONG TO QUEDLINBURG.

IT JUST HAPPENS TO BE THERE WITHIN THAT CHURCH

AVAILABLE FOR PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD TO GO

AND SEE THESE THINGS AND UNDERSTAND SOMETHING THAT--

THAT'S IMPORTANT GOING BACK TO THE 9TH CENTURY

ABOUT WESTERN CIVILIZATION. BUT IT BELONGS TO EVERYBODY.

SO WHEN YOU STEAL SOMETHING LIKE THAT, YOU'RE STEALING IT

FROM YOU AND ME AND ANYBODY ELSE THAT'S OUT THERE.

YOU DON'T OWN THINGS LIKE THIS.

THEY OWN YOU IF YOU STEAL THEM.

I HAD NO REASON INDEED FROM, A, MY PROFESSIONAL SITUATION

AT THE TIME, NOR MY PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS TO DO THIS.

I MEAN, I WAS NOT AN ART HISTORIAN

PURSUING ASPECTS OF MUSEUMS' LOSSES.

HONESTLY, I DIDN'T REALLY BRING

ANYTHING IN PARTICULAR TO THE TABLE.

WHICH, ON THE OTHER HAND, MAY HAVE BEEN A GOOD THING,

BECAUSE IF I WOULD HAVE BEEN SORT OF KNOWLEDGEABLE IN THIS AREA,

I MAY HAVE NOT HAD THIS CURIOSITY,

THIS DESIRE TO FIND OUT.

[INTERVIEWER] I WANT YOU TO TALK A LITTLE BIT--

IF YOU'RE COMFORTABLE ABOUT--

THERE WERE THE TWO ITEMS THAT WERE STILL MISSING

AND WHAT YOU THINK MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED TO ONE OF THEM.

ARE YOU COMFORTABLE TALKING ABOUT THAT?

I DON'T KNOW, I'M NOT SURE.

-[INTERVIEWER] OKAY. -ON CAMERA, I DON'T KNOW.

JUST 'CAUSE I DON'T WANT ANY--

I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED.

-[INTERVIEWER] OH, OKAY. -IT'S JUST KIND OF A SPECULATION

AS TO WHAT-- THAT THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED.

[INTERVIEWER] BUT IT'S NOT ANYWHERE THAT YOU, THAT--

-IT'S NOT IN THE FAMILY? -OH, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO.

NO, NO.

GO CHECK THE GOODWILL.

I DON'T KNOW.

I WON'T SAY A NAME. HOW ABOUT THAT?

THERE IS A POSSIBILITY THAT IT WAS GIVEN IN A SACK

OF OTHER COSTUME JEWELRY TO SOME EMPLOYEES.

HOW'S THAT? THAT'S GOOD.

* WELL, I'VE BEEN WHERE THE SINNERS WIN *

* THEY JUST GO HOME EMPTY-HANDED *

* AND I'VE WALKED ACROSS THAT NARROW BRIDGE *

* OF BROKEN LIVES AND DREAMS ABANDONED *

* NOW ON THE STREET WHERE MOTHERS WEEP *

* I PAINT ACROSS THIS CANVAS *

* AND ALL THE CHILDREN, THEY ARE FAST ASLEEP, YEAH *

* NEED A BREAK NOW FROM THIS MADNESS *

-* OH, BUT I KNOW -* I'VE GOT SOUL OF GOLD

* I'VE GOT A SOUL OF GOLD

* I'M NEVER GONNA GROW OLD

* NEVER GONNA GROW OLD

* I'M TRYING TO HOLD ON

* I'M TRYING TO HOLD ON BUT THEY'RE TOO HIGH *

* TOO HIGH

* TOO HIGH TO FALL, OH YEAH *

* NOW ON THE STREET WHERE MOTHERS WEEP *

* I PAINT ACROSS THIS CANVAS *

* AND AS I LAY MYSELF DOWN TO SLEEP, YEAH *

* NEED A BREAK, YEAH, FROM THIS MADNESS *

* NEED A BREAK, YEAH, FROM THIS MADNESS *

* NEED A BREAK, YEAH, FROM THIS MADNESS *