Original subtitles

What have you heard about the legends

surrounding the making of "The Wizard of Oz"?

- Um...

- I mean, there's just so many rumors in general

about "The Wizard of Oz".

- Oh, we could talk about that all day.

I mean, I've researched this stuff

since the time I was a little kid,

- I'll get you, my pretty.

- Definitely heard about the burning of Margaret Hamilton.

- Yeah. Oof.

- You know, she caught fire once unintentionally.

- I definitely know of the makeup situation

that happened with the Tin Man.

- Heard about the Munchkin hanging.

- I've heard that a small person hung themselves on set.

- The list goes on and on and on and on and on.

I think it's a part of the legacy...

I think that when some people look at films

that are super beloved

and they hear stories about the difficulties

or the tragedies that happen on set,

they then go on to ascribe that production as "cursed",

because it's hard to hear these stories of tragedy.

And you want to believe that at least someone

or something is in charge

because the reality is no one's in charge

and the universe doesn't care about you,

but that is too crushing

to encompass with our minds.

So, we come up with ideas like that production is cursed,

'cause it makes us feel a little bit better

about the terrible things that might have happened on the set.

When I was five,

I sat down and watched "Wizard of Oz".

Everybody had a great night,

but I had the life changing experience.

The characters and the fantasy and the songs,

but I just kind of bought into all of it.

You don't choose these things, they choose you.

And that's a statement that I think anybody watching this

who has any kind of passion for anything can...

can comprehend.

What "The Wizard of Oz" is about

is not a question I have actually considered.

And that's amazing to me.

- There are lots of theories.

People thought that the Yellow Brick Road

was something to do with the gold standard.

Society had been through some really difficult times

with the depression

and then the war.

People were forced to move all over the place.

And then we still had lots of first-generation immigrants

who'd come in in the 1910s and 20s.

They had to leave their homes

and knew they would never be able to go back.

Here was Judy.

She was disrupted.

She was off in a whole 'nother world,

just like the population of the country.

And the whole tension was "she couldn't go home".

- Close your eyes

and tap your heels together, three times.

- But suddenly through magic,

she is able to go home

and she is sort of like a surrogate

for the American population.

- There's no place like home.

They went out of the movie

with some sense of redemption.

At least Judy got home.

I think it's about the way

in which human beings trust each other

to lead each other through the world.

Yeah.

'Cause the Wizard's not inherently a bad guy,

but he has a lot of power.

And power corrupts.

That's absolutely true.

It was made in 1938

and it opened in August 17th, 1939,

and America was at the cusp of a World War.

- Go, fly! Fly!

- Fly! Fly! Fly!

And that dark energy,

it was part of the air they were breathing at that time.

That beat of war was going on in the background.

I mean, and they so much made it real

with the Winkies marching like Nazis.

"The Wizard of Oz"

was a hopeful outcome of that dark energy

because the witch is dead.

Dorothy gets back to Kansas.

The objects themselves associated with the production

still have that power over people

and an object like the Ruby slippers

is a perfect example of that.

I've seen people just break down in tears,

coming into this room

and seeing the ruby slippers in real life.

You know, Dorothy Gale is a stand-in for anybody

who's ever thought about wanting more out of their life

or being unhappy with their circumstances,

seeking something over the rainbow.

Having an object in front of you

that represents that,

it's actually very powerful.

"Wizard of Oz" was a very difficult shoot.

There were conflicts and re-castings

and accidents and script problems.

- They wanted to make a realistic film

that was a fantasy.

All of the characters suffered through the costumes.

Dad had to eat every meal through a straw.

The lighting was so intense.

They were dying under those costumes.

There was a fire marshal on the set at all times

with a light meter going around to make sure

the set wasn't going to catch on fire

from the heat of the lights.

There were 14 writers and five directors

and three choreographers

and a potentially fatal accident,

a potentially fatal reaction to makeup.

I would imagine you'd have to ask

any number of the cast members

who worked on "The Wizard of Oz"

if "The Wizard of Oz" was cursed or not.

And if you asked Buddy Ebsen,

he might tell you, yes.

His participation was cursed.

Originally Buddy Ebsen was cast to play the Tin Man.

And he was a very popular film actor of the time

known as the song and dance man.

And he would've been a perfect fit for the film.

The makeup was pretty basic.

They used clown white

and then they dusted it with ground up aluminum.

He found that he was starting to have cramps

in his fingers, or in his feet.

And then one night it spread to his arms

and his legs and he could not breathe.

- They were putting silver paint on him

and they didn't realize it, you know,

he was being poisoned.

He had been inhaling the aluminum particles,

you know, that floated around.

They had coated his lungs.

- He went home one night. Couldn't breathe.

Ended up in the hospital

with pneumonia in an oxygen tent.

Unfortunately, his participation in the film

was cut short.

And it ended up being a film

that kind of scarred him in a way too.

Um, literally scarred his lungs

uh, because he had a tendency toward bronchitis

for the rest of his life.

- In the early 2000's

I had a show called "MythBusters"

and we were doing a story we called "The Goldfinger Myth".

And it's about the actress, Shirley Eaton,

who got painted gold in the James Bond film,

supposedly got suffocated by the paint.

Which she didn't.

But as part of the research for that myth,

we came across the famous story from "The Wizard of Oz"

that Buddy Ebsen was originally slated to play the Tin Man.

And couldn't because he was poisoned

by the silver paint that they put on him

to play the Tin Man.

When we first started to look at doing a story

about "The Wizard of Oz",

there are a few avenues to that negative affect

and one is poison.

So, if Buddy Ebsen was poisoned by lead in the paint,

we-we can't test that on ourselves.

But the other main reason given

for the difficulty with the paint

was that it cut off the oxygen

that you breathe through your skin.

And if you paint your whole body

um, you will somehow suffocate.

That is testable by us.

The suffocation is something that we can creep up on.

We have an EMT on set.

We can make sure our pulse oxygen levels are up to snuff.

And that is the aspect of the story that we tested.

- This is the exact stuff that they were using on the Tin Man.

Which was just pure aluminum powder.

Now, why are you guys feeding her oxygen?

- Her heart rate's gone up.

When most humans think about being Buddy Ebsen

in that moment, oh, you get to play a Tin Man.

so, they're gonna build this elaborate costume around you.

And then they're gonna paint you silver.

These are all the activities of like,

the best day ever for a 10-year-old.

And I think every one of us intersects with that of like,

that sounds incredible.

And when you add on to that, the idea of being poisoned

by effectively the highest level of play, um,

that's exactly the kind of juxtaposition

where people wanna keep telling that story.

I think it is certainly plausible

that Buddy Ebsen could have had lifelong effects

from the makeup on "Wizard of Oz".

On every single story we did on "MythBusters",

we were working with chemicals

that could affect us in a negative way

and we had to be able to talk to the insurance company

about how we were going to do it safely.

That's definitely not something

that I think was going on in the 30s.

The snow in the poppy field sequence

was made of some derivation of asbestos.

Nobody thought that this was damaging.

They were doing things the best way they knew how,

80 years ago.

And they were doing them as safely

as they thought they could.

A lot of the special effects that were used

in "The Wizard of Oz" were experimental.

They were put into "The Wizard of Oz"

for the first time on film.

- Buddy Ebsen was a guinea pig for a new kind of makeup

and it cost him the film.

There was another rumor

that the Munchkins were all drunkards.

During the filming of "The Wizard of Oz"

most of the Munchkins stayed together at this hotel.

The rumor is that while they were here,

they carried on in a less-than-civilized fashion.

This hotel will always be known

for the residence of most of the little people

when they made the movie uh, in 1938.

It's strange, but I can almost hear

the Munchkin sounds

because more than a hundred of them stayed right here

in this hotel.

I'm sure there were a few parties.

There have been stories for years

that there were wild sex orgies,

that the Munchkins went crazy.

I used to hear this as a kid.

- Come on here, Larry, let me tell you.

- You can tell me.

There were roughly 124 little people

playing the Munchkins

and the stories about the orgies,

the drunken parties,

the misbehavior,

tend to be painted in the broadest strokes possible

and incriminate 124 people.

There were maybe a half a dozen or 10 who were rowdy.

And there were things that did happen.

- One of the Munchkins brought a gun to the set.

A sort of a notorious little guy

by the name of Charlie Kelly.

He was jealous over his ex-wife

and she was dating another little person.

He didn't get fired though.

They just made sure he didn't return with uh,

another pistol.

I have to ask you about - Of course.

- all the rumors that have come out

and the rumors are that all the little people

got drunk every night.

- Nah, that's so... - No.

- That's stupid, really. They didn't.

- Where do you think these rumors came from, then?

- The great Judy Garland.

On a TV special in 1967,

Judy Garland said the Munchkins

on "The Wizard of Oz" set were-were drunks.

There was nothing like the drunken stories

that Judy Garland sort of pinned on them

in one of her inebriated moments

on the "Jack Parr Show".

- They were drunks. - They were little drunks?

- And they put them all in one hotel room.

Not one room, one hotel in Culver City.

- Yeah.

- And they got smashed every night.

And they'd pick 'em up in butterfly nets.

Because it came from Judy Garland,

I think people may have thought,

well, she was there. She would know.

As much as they loved Judy Garland,

and they really did,

the Munchkin actors had to suffer with that story

over the years.

Um, and they-they weren't happy about that.

- As much as I love Judy,

when she made that statement on "Jack Parr Show",

Judy had a couple of bells in her,

and she was trying to be funny.

And when you're trying to be funny,

and you don't know what to say,

you're gonna pick on the little people.

- Now I've heard stories... - Don't you believe it.

- Really? - That's what they all hate,

them, them stupid stories. - That was not true.

- You mind if I say somethin'? If I were 6-foot-tall,

I'd-I'd go to every one of those guys

that wrote those stupid things, you know, it was awful,

I'da grabbed up against the wall and said,

"You know what you did?" Bam!

- The Munchkins got really irritated

by questions like that.

Rumors of sex orgies. - Oh, that's a load of BS.

- While there probably were parties,

it was nothing like

what was portrayed in the movie, "Under the Rainbow".

"Under the Rainbow" is a great, great, great movie

and very misunderstood.

But true movie buffs know the truth about it.

- Hey guys, this is Gregg Turkington

with the Victorville Film Archive.

- And I have five copies of that, but I brought one.

This is "Under the Rainbow".

This is sort of the definitive making

of "The Wizard of Oz" movie.

If you like Chevy Chase, this is one of his best movies.

And of course, Carrie Fisher,

we all love her as Princess Leia,

but she shone bright, not only in "Star Wars" movies,

but also here, in "Under the Rainbow".

The true story of the Munchkins.

I'm Steve Rash.

I'm director of a film called "Under the Rainbow".

The film turned out to be about um...

the Munchkins tearing up the Culver Hotel

during the filming of "The Wizard of Oz"

with a story overlaid

about a secret service agent,

a paranoid duke and duchess,

an assassin,

a Japanese spy,

a German little person spy.

- I, I didn't think people would believe

that the Munchkins would be swinging from the chandeliers,

and would tie up the hotel manager,

and run amok.

They probably thought

that it wouldn't perpetuate it that much,

but it did.

I had not seen "Under the Rainbow"

in at least 20 years.

This last 12 or 14 hours

since seeing it again after 20 years

has kind of shaken me.

I thought we were more advanced

in 1980 than this.

I was quite disappointed at how racist,

how sexist,

how elitist

it conceptually was.

Probably some other "-ists" as well.

Did that bother me

the day that I shot it?

I don't think so.

It bothers me like Hell today.

The only fabulous thing about the whole experience

was meeting and working with

over a hundred little people.

In retrospect, looking at the way

we were portraying them,

um, they should have revolted.

This film seems to believe

that anything a small person does is funny,

and of course, that's not true.

- You know, I agree with you.

And one of the things that bother me

about the use of the little people in this movie

is that at no point were any of them,

except for Billy Barty, as the spy,

dignified by being made into characters

who had personalities.

It felt a little bit like a train wreck,

but I was the conductor.

This is probably rationalization

because so many little people

had a wonderful experience

and made a lot of money.

I hope that makes up for the fact

that we really didn't deal with them

in a truthful way.

We tried to do it in a fun way and you know,

some people think it's hilarious.

Um, I don't anymore.

Are you a "Wizard of Oz" fan?

- Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

Some of the people who made it in retrospect

may have felt bad about it.

Everything that can happen on a film

happened to that film.

The joy you see on the screen

in "The Wizard of Oz",

that was an illusion created by

an awful lot of people working awfully hard.

The studio really was a factory.

There were 500 carpenters,

15 plumbers,

two dozen blacksmiths,

one barber,

one shoe-shine boy,

and one man in charge of the lions.

The actors and actresses

were workers in that factory.

Mom was born in Cleveland, Ohio, 1902.

She taught in the Boston public schools

while she pounded the pavements in New York.

"The Wizard of Oz" was casting.

They had thought of looking for a beautiful witch.

She said, well, that does it for me,

but subsequently they changed their mind

and they wanted a quote, "Ugly witch".

And mother said, "Well, of course

they would've thought of me."

And she got the part.

And the-the rest was history.

People are shocked to realize

that Mom was on the screen in "The Wizard of Oz"

only 12 minutes.

Of course, her presence

dominated the whole film.

- I remember being incredibly scared

of the witch.

They knew what they were doing

when they cast Margaret Hamilton.

Maybe they didn't realize

just the impact that she would have though.

A big concern of hers

was that the kids would believe it.

- How nice to see you, Mr. Rogers.

- I'm so glad to see you.

I'd like you to know my television friend,

Miss Margaret Hamilton. - How do you do?

And so, she spent a lot of time

trying to convince kids

that she was a kind old lady

and that was a witch on the screen.

And that was make believe. And they shouldn't be afraid,

- Would you try on a dress like the one you had on?

- Yes, I'd-I'd love to. - To show us?

- I think that would be fun.

But she tried to stress,

especially on "Mr. Rogers",

that it was just an act.

- There's your old friend,

the Wicked Witch of the West.

- How did s-- how did she talk?

- Well, she talked like this.

It's very nice to see you.

In the 30s and the 40s,

safety conditions were not so great.

And uh,

Mom was badly burned in the picture.

It's a scene where she has arrived

in the Munchkin Village.

- When you see her entrance into Munchkinland

in the smoke,

it's not Margaret Hamilton.

It was her double, Betty Danko.

But they wanted Margaret to do the disappearance.

They wanted to get it in one shot.

They wanted to make it look real.

So, they weren't using her double for that.

And it was a complicated shot.

Margaret Hamilton was talking to the Good Witch and Dorothy,

and she had to deliver her line,

"I'll get you and your little dog, too."

- I'll get you, my pretty, and your little dog, too!

And whirl around

and get to that elevator platform.

The elevator was very small.

So, she had to hit her mark, exactly,

pull the broom straight up,

pull her elbows in

so that she could drop cleanly through the floor.

Say the line, back up just the right amount,

get on the platform, pull everything in.

The smoke came up and she dropped down,

huge burst of real flame,

But they let the fire effect go too quickly.

And the broom caught on fire

as did the hat.

She was severely burned.

She was immediately smothered with blankets

to put out the fire.

What she ultimately ended up having

was third-degree burns on her hand

and second-degree burns on her face.

Now compounding that,

her green makeup was copper based,

and heated copper

could begin to eat into her skin.

They had to take her off to the side of the set

and clean her face, her pores completely,

of that green makeup.

And they used rubbing alcohol

and they had to press down on these fresh burns.

Uh, Margaret Hamilton said

she could never, ever forget that pain.

And the doctor salved her up,

wrapped her up like a mummy,

and they sent her home.

She was very concerned

what my reaction was going to be.

I was three years old at that time.

She called ahead to my nanny and said,

"Look, I'm coming home.

Tell him that I have a new costume.

I'm gonna look just like a mummy.

And I'm really excited to show him this costume.

And as soon as we get home and I get in bed,

you have to bring him in so he can see this."

And I still remember being brought into her room.

And here was Mom...

bandaged everywhere,

particularly all over her face

with this couple of slits for her eyes.

And she said, "How do you like my new costume?"

And I said, "Gee, that was kind of neat."

And she handled that whole situation

so that it was never any trauma for me.

When she did go back six weeks later,

the first thing they wanted her to do

was a flying scene on the broom

with the smoke coming out behind.

They said, "Maggie, we just have this broom

with a little gasoline engine on the back."

She was filming a sky riding scene

and they positioned a...

a pipe that would blast fire,

right beside uh...

where she sat on the broom.

- The wardrobe man brought up a costume to her

and said, "This is your fireproof costume."

- She went, "Whoa." - She just refused.

She says, "I'm not gonna do it."

- So, Margaret Hamilton's stunt double,

Betty Danko, agreed to do the scene.

Betty Danko got in the costume, the makeup,

put her on the broom, started the wind machines.

Told her "All right, action,

push the button, Miss Danko."

And she pushed the button and the smoke mechanism

at the back of the broom exploded.

- That thing blew up.

- She went one direction

The broom went the other direction.

There were flying metal pieces that embedded in her leg.

And she was in the hospital for a while.

Any kind of legend, good or bad,

is going to travel.

The important thing though is to separate the legend

and the myth from the truth.

The only way in which the film is cursed now

is the way all of that

has been expanded upon,

and enlarged, and lied about.

And this has been going on for decades.

I think it's yellow journalism to the max.

If I were just somebody who sat at home

and watched "The Wizard of Oz" for my own pleasure

and heard the legends, I would say,

"Well, gee, maybe those are true.

Gosh, did that really happen? Fuck!"

The most famous of all "The Oz" legends

is one of the earliest ones

that there is a Munchkin

who hung himself on the set,

and you can see him in the background

hanging and swinging.

I've got some curses for you if you...

if you wanna know.

Someone showed me a um,

a couple of feet of film

that was allegedly once part of the cut

of "The Wizard of Oz"

that had been removed when they learned

that that dark spot

up in the upper right-hand corner,

is a Munchkin who hanged himself from the lighting grid.

Um, I saw the black blob

that was supposedly the dead Munchkin.

When was this?

- During the filming of "Under the Rainbow."

I wasn't interested enough to get out a magnifier

and-and check the validity. I bought it.

Good story.

- It went from being a stagehand caught on camera,

to a stagehand who was depressed,

and hung himself on camera,

to an MGM executive

who was so despairing of how much

"The Wizard of Oz" was costing

that he hung himself on camera,

to an actress who hung herself

because she didn't get the part of Dorothy,

to a Munchkin who hung himself

because Judy Garland wouldn't date him.

I get this from grade school kids

and I don't mind it from grade school kids,

but it's when adults who come up to me

to say, "You know, there's a man hanging."

And it's like....

Basically, one of the Munchkins hung himself

on the set of "The Wizard of Oz".

Fortunately, it was very far in the distance

and it wasn't even noticed at the time of the release.

It wasn't until some real true blue film buffs

who watched the movie enough times

happened to notice it one day.

- There's a conspiracy within "The Wizard of Oz"

that a Munchkin, um,

hung himself in the background

during one of the scenes.

You see it right there on film, on certain copies.

- Like what the fuck's goin' on over there?

It's not on every copy.

You have to have the collector's editions.

This is the one you wanna own,

because this is the only place to actually see

the original hanging Munchkin footage.

And of course, uh, it's priceless,

so, I was very, very glad to acquire it

uh, from this uh, dealer.

- Oh no, he didn't know what he had!

If he knew what he had, he wouldn't have sold it to me.

That, that, that we know to be the truth.

Now, this is an edition that collectors love, also.

It's the 50th anniversary edition.

Unfortunately, with this,

they did find the alternate footage with the,

the bird from the LA Zoo

and they replaced uh,

the-the hanging Munchkin footage with that footage.

- We tried to get uh,

like, the original copy.

It's the oldest copy we found.

It's literally VHS.

And like I said, this is the re-mastered version,

that now, they say it's a bird.

And in the original version,

it straight up looks like a Munchkin.

Like a Munchkin. - Munchkin.

- Munchkin.

I'm gonna show you both versions

of "The Wizard of Oz",

of the, of the hanging Munchkin scene,

which is one of the most iconic in

"The Wizard of Oz" history,

if not motion, picture history.

Okay, here go, we're off to see the Wizard now.

You see that? That's a, that's the bird.

Let me freeze this.

You see what is obviously an exotic bird, like an emu.

They found a big, exotic bird.

I don't know what the breed was,

but it was a similar size to the Munchkin.

They put that bird in the same corner of the room.

This was, is sound stage number two.

And they shot the same scene,

but with a bird flapping around

and replaced it in most prints,

except for the print that leaked out.

And this is the one collectors wanna see.

This is the suicide of the anonymous Munchkin.

Never been identified. Never will be. Um.

- There!

Pfft! Dead.

His neck, neck is snapped instantly in a hanging, so.

Look at that, swinging back and forth. Dead.

People have shared the footage on YouTube,

and some of these sorts of bootleg sites.

Because of the times in which we are our living,

there is a very "worthy" soul

who has doctored the footage

and posts it on YouTube, as if to say,

there, you can see it is a hanging Munchkin

and this is what it used to look like.

And when the rumors started to go around,

MGM took this out and dropped in a-a bird.

Now it really is a bird.

- That's the bird they photoshopped in, man.

I have no problem debunking a conspiracy theory.

Like, the whole Keanu Reeves being a reptilian.

You know, I've pretty much debunked that one.

But this one, I'm telling you guys, man,

it's-it's for real.

- If you watch the original, it's for real.

- The bird is not in the...

original copy.

The bird is in the remade copy,

and they put the bird there

to make people say, you know, oh, it's a bird.

It's hangin' right there.

Now, that is not a bird.

There's no wings,

and it's rockin' back and forth.

I mean, it's there.

I think there is a great danger,

not only because it's inaccurate or disproportionate,

but because it is omnipresent in today's world

of looking for dreck and dark.

There is just an essential purity

about the "Oz" story

and the "Oz" film.

It was at a time when Judy was so excited

about making that picture

and so delighted to be making that picture.

She was thrilled.

It was well known on the set

that if Judy cracked up at something,

you had to take five minutes to let her laugh it

out of her system.

And when it came time to do her first scenes

with Burt Lahr in the movie,

these were the scenes where they meet the Cowardly Lion

in the forest and he goes after Toto.

- I'll get you, anyway, Peewee.

And Judy rescues, Toto - picks up Toto

and slaps the Lion,

- Wah!

- And Burt Lahr starts to cry.

- What'd you do that for?

- Well, they could not get this take.

They did it two or three times.

And every time Burt Lahr started to cry

with the waterspouts built into his wig,

and the water pouring down

and him doing his whole cowardly lion bit.

She would crack up.

- She would break up every time.

It is in the film.

She picks up Toto,

and she's starts to laugh,

and she pulls the dog over in front of her face.

It is heaven,

and it's in the film.

- She couldn't stop laughing,

take, after take, after take.

- It was an expensive picture.

You know, they were running, they had to get the scene done.

And finally, after three or four takes of this,

Victor Fleming took her behind the set

behind one of the trees

and he gave her a smart, little smack across the face.

If that's how he handled things,

well, it's too bad he had to slap her.

He didn't punch her. He didn't beat her.

It was just a sharp, little, you know, "Come on.

Come to. Get with it here".

- Well...

if-if that's what happened, that's what happened.

Um, you know, um...

I don't know what else to say about that.

Was it the right thing to do?

Well, no,

probably not, but what are you gonna do?

You've gotta get the picture made.

It was coded into her to want to please,

to try to give out all the love she had inside her

in hopes that it would come back to her.

She said, I always felt unwanted.

And she wasn't being overly dramatic when she said it.

She found out that her mother

had tried to have her aborted

and a doctor friend of theirs warn them against it.

So, the mother tried everything she could

to induce a miscarriage.

This is somebody who didn't have the protection

within herself or in the people

who were supposed to be taking care of her

to withstand the concrete mixer

that Hollywood could be.

When my mother started

"The Wizard of Oz",

she was 15, when she started it

and she finished it when she was 16.

Your body starts to change.

The character of Dorothy of course,

was even younger in the book.

And they wanted my mom to look like a child.

They said, "You can't gain any weight".

She had no idea that the studio

had asked some of the doctors

who worked at the studio,

to give her what they called

energy pills and or pep pills,

so that she would keep

that childlike figure.

Pep pills are names for a gradity of barbiturates

and prescription drugs.

The young pill addict can move from sedatives like Doriden,

"red devils"

to amphetamines.

- That would cut her appetite

and that would give her a little bit of energy.

And then when my grandmother said she can't sleep at night,

then they gave her a sleeping pill.

And they didn't go out to harm her.

They didn't what they were doing.

They had no idea about addiction.

They had no idea about how this would harm people.

She developed a dependency on them

that nobody knew a dependency was probable.

I've never blamed the studio

for what happened to my mom

as far as the addiction

that encompassed her adult life

because the-the studio

would never go out to harm its biggest money maker.

You were a product.

The actors were never really,

truly thought about as people.

They were part of the factory.

We know that the studio did harm.

We know that now.

We know that amphetamines

and we know that sleeping pills,

you don't give that to kids.

We know that.

They didn't know that then.

And even if they did,

would they have cared?

I don't know.

I don't know.

They got around the child labor laws.

They, they did harmful things.

My mother had breakdowns at MGM

because she went from movie to movie, to movie,

to movie, to movie. She never had a vacation.

But again,

I don't think you can blame people for ignorance.

We all now know about the world of addiction.

They didn't.

When I... started to...

dabble in the world of cocaine and alcohol,

I realized that once I found out

about my family history

that I fit right in.

And now that I've been sober 34 years,

I think to myself,

that's why this happened.

It happened to her.

It happened to me.

And it was incredibly fulfilling

to find out that I didn't have to blame myself.

And I didn't have to blame her.

And that I learned to forgive.

But you don't have to learn to forget.

You hear all these stories in Hollywood

and no matter how you phrase it, you know,

it is something that is kind of sad.

But part of what I love about Judy is that she,

throughout her life, references this time

as being the happiest that she ever was

and how she constantly was always trying to search

for that kind of rainbow again.

As far as Judy goes,

I-I know that this was one of her,

you know, her best memories.

But I feel like her experience was

much like Hollywood has always been.

"The Wizard of Oz" the reason I love it so much,

I have to say that that is because of her performance.

Who she is in that movie draws you in as a child,

and she got me hooked.

So, because of her,

I became obsessed with this movie

and seeing her other films,

I just fell in love with her more and more.

Do we remove some magic from a narrative

by busting a myth about that narrative?

I submit, no.

I submit that no one ever minds

knowing more about a subject.

You can certainly demystify things

and still celebrate them at the same time.

I take it as axiomatic that humans, as explorers,

are evolutionarily driven

to find the truth of things.

We have always sent our best and brightest

to the edge of the known to report back what they find.

While some people may complain

that in telling the true stories about some narrative

we're somehow reducing some of its magic.

I don't think that's true for most people.

I wouldn't necessarily attach

the term "cursed" to "The Wizard of Oz".

There were elements of it

that-that might have been a little cursed,

but the-the blessing that that film

was to the cast,

and to the American cinema,

I just don't think you could call "The Wizard of Oz"

entirely cursed.

It's... that's certain.

- I think if people think it's a sad film,

it might be...

because of what happened to Judy Garland.

Her experience at MGM

led in some sense, at least,

to a life that it ended

in her mid-forties.

And the success I think of "Over the Rainbow"

even now is because it...

has an emotional jolt

that ties it to Judy Garland,

looking up at the sky and wishing

that she were over the rainbow.