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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:21,783 THE DINNER 2 00:01:20,848 --> 00:01:22,840 The idea of this film 3 00:01:23,017 --> 00:01:25,092 is an approach 4 00:01:25,570 --> 00:01:28,304 to the specific problems of political prisoners. 5 00:01:30,138 --> 00:01:33,948 This meeting of ex political prisoners 6 00:01:34,581 --> 00:01:39,217 took place in 1974 7 00:01:39,408 --> 00:01:41,127 in Catalonia. 8 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:49,634 All the participants intervened in the making of this film, 9 00:01:50,290 --> 00:01:53,835 both in the subjects discussed 10 00:01:54,151 --> 00:01:59,076 as well as the strategy of approach to the specific character 11 00:01:59,437 --> 00:02:02,314 of a person undergoing the loss of his freedom. 12 00:02:02,827 --> 00:02:07,142 For obvious reasons, the names of the technical team 13 00:02:07,435 --> 00:02:14,285 and the protagonists of the film are not given. 14 00:02:18,038 --> 00:02:20,518 I will give concrete information 15 00:02:20,724 --> 00:02:25,160 about each of the participants as ex political prisoners 16 00:02:26,479 --> 00:02:31,059 in relation to their personal characteristics. 17 00:02:33,705 --> 00:02:38,405 The youngest was arrested in November of 1962. 18 00:02:39,663 --> 00:02:44,219 He was interrogated for nineteen days by the Political-Social Brigade. 19 00:02:45,990 --> 00:02:49,223 He was given thirty years by a military tribunal 20 00:02:49,549 --> 00:02:51,554 and a petition for the death penalty. 21 00:02:53,735 --> 00:02:58,717 In fact, he did ten years going in prisons in Barcelona, 22 00:02:58,809 --> 00:03:01,518 Logroño, Burgos, Madrid, Jaén and Zaragoza. 23 00:03:06,090 --> 00:03:08,537 Another arrest took place in January of 1961, 24 00:03:08,935 --> 00:03:11,333 a RENFE (national rail road entity) union mediator 25 00:03:11,553 --> 00:03:14,233 accused of being a member of Comisiones Obreras (a communist union). 26 00:03:14,787 --> 00:03:17,413 He did seven years. 27 00:03:23,749 --> 00:03:25,597 Arrested in Santiago de Compostela 28 00:03:25,785 --> 00:03:29,237 and accused of propaganda and illegal association, 29 00:03:30,237 --> 00:03:33,471 she did two and one half years in the prison in Alcalá de Henares. 30 00:03:36,971 --> 00:03:40,686 This man did 25 years, 31 00:03:41,501 --> 00:03:45,024 spent in the various prisons under the military tribunals. 32 00:03:47,018 --> 00:03:48,611 And finally, 33 00:03:50,709 --> 00:03:54,700 a man who was arrested in 1966 and did eight years 34 00:03:54,812 --> 00:03:58,162 after having been in the hands of the Political-Social Brigade for 20 days. 35 00:03:58,546 --> 00:04:02,416 He underwent torture and was interrogated at intervals of 2 hours. 36 00:04:05,957 --> 00:04:09,110 The sum total of prison years of these five people 37 00:04:09,218 --> 00:04:12,047 adds up to more than 50 years. 38 00:04:20,808 --> 00:04:23,609 Let's listen to what I taped before. 39 00:04:27,059 --> 00:04:29,148 We can try to synthesize it 40 00:04:29,362 --> 00:04:31,946 and then later on we can look at other aspects. 41 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:38,585 Let's turn up the volume. 42 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:40,929 Connect it, will you. 43 00:04:50,840 --> 00:04:54,101 There is a belief in communes 44 00:04:54,416 --> 00:04:59,557 and it is undeniable that when the commune is not working well, 45 00:05:00,362 --> 00:05:03,340 politically things aren't working either. 46 00:05:03,517 --> 00:05:06,997 To get the commune to work well you have to be realistic. 47 00:05:07,505 --> 00:05:10,016 If it's not working it is because of dishonesty 48 00:05:10,157 --> 00:05:12,947 on the part of the majority of the components of the community. 49 00:05:13,067 --> 00:05:15,027 Or because it hasn't been well conceived. 50 00:05:15,227 --> 00:05:17,187 Maybe, but apart from that, 51 00:05:17,347 --> 00:05:20,387 if for example the commune has a meeting 52 00:05:20,547 --> 00:05:24,987 and the commune is following the agreements voted on by the majority, 53 00:05:25,107 --> 00:05:27,627 it is difficult for the commune not to be working well. 54 00:05:27,747 --> 00:05:30,507 What you can do in a commune is to abstract, 55 00:05:30,627 --> 00:05:34,587 ignore that there are private interests, honest interests, 56 00:05:34,877 --> 00:05:36,947 interests that you have to respect. 57 00:05:37,147 --> 00:05:41,187 In the commune they had the possibility 58 00:05:41,347 --> 00:05:45,387 of handing over their monthly budget 59 00:05:45,627 --> 00:05:48,427 that they had been spending individually. 60 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,467 You know that as well as I do, 61 00:05:51,667 --> 00:05:56,147 because I've been looking at the papers and I thought to myself: 62 00:05:56,267 --> 00:05:58,203 I can't take anything from this page because it won't cash up. 63 00:05:58,227 --> 00:06:00,587 But there were pages where I knew the guy had money 64 00:06:00,787 --> 00:06:02,307 but the guy was a real vulture. 65 00:06:02,507 --> 00:06:05,227 He was using the solidarity of the other guys 66 00:06:05,427 --> 00:06:09,507 and keeping what he got from home for himself. 67 00:06:09,627 --> 00:06:13,347 What happens is that the political prisoner, 68 00:06:13,467 --> 00:06:17,627 actually prisoners in general, are substantially individuals, 69 00:06:18,187 --> 00:06:21,507 individuals who are alone and in a difficult situation 70 00:06:21,787 --> 00:06:25,067 and they have to resolve their reality, try to... 71 00:06:25,947 --> 00:06:27,707 When they got to Jaén, 72 00:06:27,907 --> 00:06:31,667 the time they rounded up 50 or 60 peasants 73 00:06:32,227 --> 00:06:34,467 from Linares and other villages, 74 00:06:34,627 --> 00:06:37,267 those people had absolutely nothing. 75 00:06:37,347 --> 00:06:42,307 In those conditions it is imperative, above all, 76 00:06:42,467 --> 00:06:44,667 to give up everything 77 00:06:44,867 --> 00:06:48,667 and show some solidarity with these 60 men who have nothing. 78 00:06:49,187 --> 00:06:50,507 But that situation is provisional 79 00:06:50,627 --> 00:06:53,787 because after a couple of months, there were only four left. 80 00:06:53,947 --> 00:06:58,507 Doing time in prison, there are long periods, 81 00:06:58,667 --> 00:07:01,027 but people receive a little or a lot from the outside, 82 00:07:01,187 --> 00:07:04,747 you keep receiving something. And there is a kitty or joint fund. 83 00:07:05,187 --> 00:07:07,947 But in my experience, the best way is 84 00:07:08,507 --> 00:07:15,747 to establish small communes by origins. 85 00:07:15,907 --> 00:07:18,827 The people from Asturias, the Catalans, the people from Madrid. 86 00:07:18,867 --> 00:07:23,547 Or by friendship, your friends. 87 00:07:25,467 --> 00:07:31,787 You get people together by political affinity or ideological affinity, 88 00:07:31,947 --> 00:07:35,307 but at mealtimes people want to go with their friends 89 00:07:35,387 --> 00:07:37,267 and you don't choose friends politically, 90 00:07:37,467 --> 00:07:40,027 you choose your friends and that's it. 91 00:07:40,307 --> 00:07:42,107 You can't choose them for someone else. 92 00:08:09,587 --> 00:08:11,947 ...I am not against it, 93 00:08:12,107 --> 00:08:15,987 I just consider it a very extreme formula. 94 00:08:16,107 --> 00:08:19,987 Because in prison I think you have to resort to... 95 00:08:21,867 --> 00:08:26,547 You're saying that a hunger strike is an extreme form of struggle. 96 00:08:27,827 --> 00:08:31,347 But what do you mean by extreme? 97 00:08:31,827 --> 00:08:37,787 If you mean it as a last resort as a way of harming the enemy, 98 00:08:37,947 --> 00:08:40,507 which is what the struggle is for, 99 00:08:40,827 --> 00:08:45,307 I wonder whether it really harms the enemy or not. 100 00:08:45,387 --> 00:08:48,667 Maybe we only harm ourselves. 101 00:08:50,107 --> 00:08:54,427 Because taking over the prison, burning it, 102 00:08:54,587 --> 00:08:56,827 kidnapping the warden, 103 00:08:57,027 --> 00:09:00,947 all that is an extreme form of fighting, 104 00:09:01,027 --> 00:09:03,947 a tough struggle, but it harms the enemy. 105 00:09:04,107 --> 00:09:06,947 Of course it also harms us afterwards, 106 00:09:07,187 --> 00:09:13,187 but a hunger strike only destroys our bodies, 107 00:09:14,187 --> 00:09:15,987 and where is the harm to the enemy? 108 00:09:16,107 --> 00:09:22,747 If our enemy was sensitive to the loss of lives, 109 00:09:22,827 --> 00:09:28,547 he would hurt because he cares about human rights, 110 00:09:28,707 --> 00:09:30,787 but if the enemy doesn't care, 111 00:09:30,947 --> 00:09:36,187 the hunger strike is a fatal business for us. 112 00:09:37,147 --> 00:09:40,547 We don't hurt the enemy, we destroy ourselves 113 00:09:40,667 --> 00:09:43,027 and we achieve nothing. 114 00:09:43,507 --> 00:09:48,507 I think there is a certain suicidal implication in a hunger strike. 115 00:09:48,787 --> 00:09:56,427 But that is also true in a revolt. 116 00:09:56,740 --> 00:10:01,627 A hunger strike is extreme and suicidal 117 00:10:01,787 --> 00:10:04,187 and if you are not receiving support from the outside, 118 00:10:04,267 --> 00:10:06,067 you haven't got a chance. 119 00:10:06,227 --> 00:10:10,187 But outside support isn't constant. 120 00:10:13,107 --> 00:10:16,667 It must be very well organized 121 00:10:16,787 --> 00:10:20,987 and it has to be for an important event such as the Burgos trial 122 00:10:21,147 --> 00:10:24,347 where outside support overwhelmed the prisons. What we did in prison 123 00:10:24,587 --> 00:10:27,387 was nothing compared to what was happening outside on the streets. 124 00:10:27,587 --> 00:10:31,307 In fact, if some men were saved in the Burgos trial 125 00:10:31,467 --> 00:10:33,707 it was because of the fight on the outside. 126 00:10:33,827 --> 00:10:37,147 In a case like that, the street resistance guarantees a victory. 127 00:10:37,307 --> 00:10:40,467 But you have to realize that when you resort to a hunger strike 128 00:10:40,667 --> 00:10:44,027 it is because there are no other possibilities left to turn to. 129 00:10:44,187 --> 00:10:45,707 In that sense... 130 00:10:46,467 --> 00:10:49,227 Just a minute. Lots of hunger strikes 131 00:10:49,587 --> 00:10:55,267 are not a last resort because there are no other possibilities, 132 00:10:55,427 --> 00:10:58,827 they are just a lack of imagination, 133 00:10:59,067 --> 00:11:04,547 or doing it because it worked once 134 00:11:04,707 --> 00:11:10,307 and it is repeated again and again 135 00:11:10,827 --> 00:11:13,307 and the results get worse and worse. 136 00:11:13,427 --> 00:11:17,227 Before doing a hunger strike, 137 00:11:17,467 --> 00:11:22,867 which more than extreme is a desperate measure, 138 00:11:23,387 --> 00:11:28,587 I think there are a lot of other things that can be done. 139 00:11:29,147 --> 00:11:31,187 You have to work hard to find solutions. 140 00:11:31,347 --> 00:11:34,467 Lots of times we get obsessed with a hunger strike 141 00:11:34,627 --> 00:11:38,667 thinking it will harm the enemy and it just isn't true. 142 00:11:38,787 --> 00:11:44,667 This enemy is not sensitive to suffering or the loss of lives. 143 00:11:44,867 --> 00:11:47,707 The enemy is sensitive to scandals. 144 00:11:47,907 --> 00:11:56,307 If there is no outside support, the hunger strike is pitiful. 145 00:11:58,507 --> 00:12:03,667 Allow me, I want to make something very clear. 146 00:12:03,827 --> 00:12:07,027 When I said it was extreme, 147 00:12:07,187 --> 00:12:10,867 I did not mean it was the loftiest way 148 00:12:11,187 --> 00:12:18,627 because I agree that it is a desperate measure 149 00:12:18,787 --> 00:12:26,067 and is only useful with outside support. 150 00:12:26,347 --> 00:12:34,147 It becomes noticeable 151 00:12:34,387 --> 00:12:40,067 when people on the outside are fighting for us. 152 00:12:40,307 --> 00:12:44,027 What I meant when I said extreme, not loftiest, 153 00:12:44,107 --> 00:12:47,507 is that you resort to it 154 00:12:47,627 --> 00:12:51,907 when there are no other possibilities left to fight with. 155 00:12:52,107 --> 00:12:57,627 I agree that there are other ways to fight in prison 156 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,560 I have participated in lots of hunger strikes, 157 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,200 and I know what it can do to your body. 158 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,320 I'd like to say that there is also another aspect involved. 159 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,560 The hunger strike is not always directed at the enemy. 160 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:14,920 When it is done against the enemy it is usually useless. 161 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,360 Often hunger strikes are meant 162 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:26,160 to make people aware of the desperate situation we are in, 163 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:31,360 and then, if there is no solidarity or support or a struggle on the outside, 164 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,760 we are nowhere. We are just rotting and dying. 165 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:38,760 It can be effective just like those Chinese who commit suicide 166 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:44,720 to demonstrate how cruel the enemy is and so on... 167 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,240 "Sometimes it is a way of drawing attention 168 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,920 to a desperate situation with a desperate measure". 169 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:57,600 I agree somewhat with that: 170 00:13:57,680 --> 00:14:00,480 "Sometimes it is a way of drawing attention 171 00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:05,080 to a desperate situation with a desperate measure". 172 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,560 But what I want to insist on is something else. 173 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,200 You say other forms of more direct, 174 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,920 more violent action in attacking the enemy are more efficient. 175 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,520 I think a revolt, just like the hunger strike, 176 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,080 is a form of impotence in a desperate situation. 177 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,120 In that case, for me the analogy is very clear. 178 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,880 And I agree that you can't resort to a hunger strike 179 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,480 for less important demands without having tried 180 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,080 all the other possibilities of action inside the prison. 181 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:42,400 And of course, the conditions at this time 182 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,880 are not favourable to a hunger strike. 183 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,960 It's been used excessively. 184 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,080 I think that it depends 185 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:57,680 on the existing forces within each specific prison. 186 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:02,280 It has to be the people in that prison 187 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:06,640 who weigh the probabilities of receiving support 188 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:11,680 and stirring up a reaction on the outside 189 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:16,280 and the possible outcome of drawing attention to the situation. 190 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,240 The concept of a hunger strike 191 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:43,840 brings up another question which is vital for a political prisoner. 192 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:48,680 Is the prison a front line fight? 193 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:57,320 Yes, I think it is. 194 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:02,920 Especially for those who are on the outside. 195 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:09,480 In other words, the aim of the people on the outside 196 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:15,840 is to free political prisoners, to achieve an amnesty 197 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,440 or get them out in the best possible condition. 198 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:27,200 For those on the inside, and given the conditions we are in, 199 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:32,360 our main goal is to withstand. 200 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:36,080 To withstand with dignity under the best possible conditions, 201 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,120 to get back on the streets in good condition 202 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,320 so as to rejoin the struggle once again. 203 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,920 But the fighting front within a prison 204 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:51,880 is not comparable to the fight of the workers, 205 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:56,080 the students, the intellectuals and others. 206 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:00,960 I don't think it is comparable or on the same level 207 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,640 as the struggle on the outside. 208 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,760 Conditions on the outside and the inside are completely different. 209 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,560 Prisoners in jail are in the enemy's entrails. 210 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,160 We are literally and materially surrounded. 211 00:17:14,360 --> 00:17:18,960 We are subjected to a special and extreme police vigilance. 212 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:23,160 We are surrounded by the Guardia Civil within the prisons. 213 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,720 Undoubtedly we cannot fight like they can on the streets 214 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,920 or in a factory or the university. 215 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:36,200 We cannot deal with it the same way. 216 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:40,080 First we must withstand, 217 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,240 because when the enemy throws us in prison 218 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,961 what he wants is to break us down politically. 219 00:17:45,081 --> 00:17:47,920 When we leave prison the enemy wants us politically dried out, 220 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,960 wanting nothing to do with politics. 221 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:52,800 Just going back into a normal private life. 222 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:54,640 Basically that is what the enemy wants 223 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,760 if we are not doing away with us altogether, which also happens. 224 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,801 Okay, I agree. The first point is that you can't compare 225 00:18:01,881 --> 00:18:04,720 the different fronts in the struggle. 226 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,280 But precisely because the most important for the political prisoner 227 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,880 is to get back on the streets to continue fighting, 228 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,520 he must not only withstand but fight 229 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:22,160 to obtain the best possible conditions in prison 230 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:29,880 so he can be freed in the best possible condition. 231 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,400 What you mean is that the fight has to also continue in prison. 232 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,760 Of course, because otherwise 233 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,480 they would reduce us to a minimal expression of what we are, 234 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,440 they would make us common delinquents. 235 00:18:53,360 --> 00:19:00,160 I agree you shouldn't compare, and this must be clear. However… 236 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,800 Taking this stand, not giving in, 237 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:08,040 is a continuous fight to improve conditions on all levels. 238 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,040 That means, the first thing you have to do in prison 239 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,280 is to take measure of the place where you are. 240 00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:22,240 You are not in a factory or in the university or on the street, 241 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:23,120 you are in prison. 242 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:28,960 You have to realize where you are. If not, you are doomed to failure, 243 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,720 and we have seen some nasty examples of this. 244 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:37,880 What is very clear is that our attitude in prison cannot be passive. 245 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:39,800 Well, of course not! 246 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,480 From that moment on it is not only a question of withstanding 247 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:46,040 but of fighting against the violations of human rights, the humiliations etc. 248 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:56,040 But I agree that our form of fighting cannot be the same as on the streets. 249 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,560 At any rate, what we are saying is elementary. 250 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:00,280 I call it withstanding, resisting. 251 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:04,776 You call it resistance but you have to take into account 252 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,400 that some things are similar, for example: 253 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:12,160 in Burgos there were penitentiary workshops. 254 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,600 We worked in them as part of our prison term 255 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:22,880 but also for economical reasons, for us and for our families. 256 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:30,640 Also by working there we did not lose our identity as workers 257 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:35,520 we posed the same problems of working hours, salaries... 258 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,800 That was also a fight 259 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,560 even if we applied the forms that corresponded in prison. 260 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:50,600 I think we are talking on a very superficial level 261 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,320 because everything we are saying is obvious. 262 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:59,600 Every militant and every revolutionary, 263 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,440 wherever he is, is a fighting front. 264 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:07,200 What interests us now is to study in depth 265 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,800 the characteristics of this front line fight. 266 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,440 To talk in depth about what prison signifies 267 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,000 and how to act inside in order to resist and, 268 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,640 in any measure possible, to attack the enemy. 269 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,360 Resisting is a form of attack. 270 00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:29,120 Considering a militant only as a front line fight 271 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,920 is an ethical consideration to be valued on that level. 272 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,320 But that clears up absolutely nothing... 273 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,160 I would like to specify... 274 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,680 I understand a front line fight 275 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:51,480 to be an offensive such as a general workers strike 276 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:53,440 or a general strike at the university 277 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,640 or both at the same time. 278 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,720 You are then attacking the enemy to reach a goal, 279 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:03,320 to improve living conditions for the working class, 280 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,720 better salaries, etc. 281 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,280 Or to reach better political and social positions 282 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,200 than the existing ones. 283 00:22:12,360 --> 00:22:14,920 For me, this is an offensive front line fight. 284 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,040 In other words an advance by occupying enemy territory. 285 00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:23,400 Posing these kinds of demands is difficult to do in prison. 286 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,240 I think that in prison 287 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:31,800 the point is to make the enemy recognize us for what we are: 288 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,360 their enemies, a certain kind of enemies. 289 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:44,840 Political prisoners. 290 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:50,440 In other words, what we want to achieve through resistance 291 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,560 is a statute, something we have asked for many times, 292 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,760 a statute for political prisoners. 293 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,320 They should let us have this either legally or de facto 294 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,840 as they have done many times. 295 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,520 All of us who have been in prison know this for a fact. 296 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,720 They have had to accept a special regime for us. 297 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,560 Sometimes we have asked for it and sometimes we have recovered it. 298 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:13,840 Right now, in prison, 299 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,840 you can't really start any political offensive action 300 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:18,960 to improve political and social conditions. 301 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:21,560 What we do in prison 302 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,760 is to improve our conditions as political prisoners and individuals. 303 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:26,160 Wait... 304 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,680 And when we can go on a hunger strike 305 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:38,360 if it is done seriously and responsibly, 306 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:44,640 after studying and exhausting every other possibility, 307 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,520 and it is then that men are reduced 308 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,800 to their most minimal expression as men 309 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,520 or maybe as the widest expression. 310 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:59,680 They are men who can do nothing politically, socially or culturally, 311 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,200 who can do nothing as a political group 312 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,800 and they respond to the enemy by saying: 313 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,960 No sir, you can't beat us, you beat us politically, 314 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,520 you can beat us physically, but you can't beat us as human beings. 315 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,880 Right, that is what I mean 316 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:21,240 by going more in depth into what we are discussing. 317 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,280 Leave aside the tactical and political questions, etc. 318 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,000 I think there is another important aspect 319 00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:32,440 when I say it is a front line fight 320 00:24:32,521 --> 00:24:34,600 which is both personal and collective. 321 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,760 The problem: Marin - 8 years in prison. 322 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,000 He withstood his stay in prison, he came out whole. 323 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:52,640 Was it only because he had a very clear political strategy 324 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,321 in regard to his behaviour? No. 325 00:24:55,401 --> 00:24:58,881 It was his day to day human aspect, 326 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:04,280 his integrity, his resistance, that defeated the enemy. 327 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:06,320 This is what I'd like to go into in depth. 328 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,600 How do you define the situation of a political prisoner? 329 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:15,400 I'm not referring to the easy physical aspects: 330 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:20,160 walls, bars, Guardia Civil, etc. 331 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,840 It is something difficult to explain to others. 332 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,360 It is the dislocation situation of the individual. 333 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,760 In other words, as soon as you cross the entrance gate 334 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:36,440 you enter a completely different time/space dimension 335 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,920 where you can find practically 336 00:25:39,041 --> 00:25:42,320 no analogy to your previous experience in life. 337 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,720 At that moment the individual undergoes a complete break. 338 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,160 A loss of historical proportions. 339 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,600 How then do you define that? 340 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,440 I would dare to say 341 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:04,640 that what the enemy wants to do to us in prison 342 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:12,800 is to subdue us, they use the word "reduce". 343 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,880 Reduce us not only physically 344 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,760 but psychologically, mentally. 345 00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:28,600 They want to shrink us, they want... 346 00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:36,040 There is a good image 347 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:41,680 that reflects their intentions: 348 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,600 a fetus, 349 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:53,480 which is the image they want of us. 350 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:58,160 They want the political prisoner to dry up 351 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:03,800 and leave the prison completely dried out politically. 352 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,240 Dry him out, depoliticize him. 353 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,560 Then send him back to his private life, his family, 354 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:18,240 his work, back to productivity and society. 355 00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:19,800 That is the goal. 356 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,000 They want us to forget about everything. 357 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,600 To leave everything behind. That is their goal. 358 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,160 One of the policemen I met, 359 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,800 the most efficient one from the Political-Social Brigade, 360 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:37,080 from their point of view, who went into things in depth, 361 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:42,040 wanted to break us, depoliticize us. 362 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,960 He didn't only want a confession, 363 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,080 or a statement 364 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:54,480 or accusations against other people and against the regime. 365 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,200 He wanted us to surrender, to turn ourselves in. 366 00:28:02,120 --> 00:28:07,960 Another worrisome problem which hasn't been well researched 367 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,080 because in resolving it we resort to too much dogmatism, 368 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,080 wishing it to go well, 369 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:20,000 is knowing whether repression really achieves or not its objectives. 370 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:25,240 In other words, if the majority of militants, political prisoners, 371 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:31,840 continue as militants once they get out of prison. 372 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,760 I don't mean giving up 373 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:45,280 their revolutionary beliefs 374 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:50,321 but rather whether they continue as active militants 375 00:28:50,401 --> 00:28:59,080 with all the personal sacrifices this implies. 376 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,400 It worries me because my personal experience 377 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,880 tells me that in general, and especially when repression acts 378 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,520 on men and women who have been in prison for years, 379 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:16,760 that this repression achieves a lot. 380 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,840 After having met hundreds and hundreds of men 381 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,440 who have been in prison a good number of years, 382 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,600 my experience tells me that when they get out, 383 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,600 the majority are no longer actively militant. 384 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:35,280 This is not because they have lost their beliefs 385 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:41,280 but because they are no longer in condition, 386 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,560 they are overwhelmed and they no longer have the capacity. 387 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,760 And not only because of repression, strictly speaking, 388 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,680 but because of the experience of having been in prison 389 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:57,160 and the machinations undergone, other types of human experiences, 390 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:06,760 a different level of profoundness in a series of vital relationships 391 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,880 for an individual with things and people, etc... 392 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,920 This leads the person to a certain failure 393 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,680 to adapt that is later reflected once out on the streets. 394 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:24,320 There are those who crack, who are ignorant of a reality 395 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,640 that incapacitates them to be politically active 396 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:27,960 and, at the same time, 397 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,640 they are marginalized to a certain degree, 398 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:35,120 a product of such an extreme experience as prison 399 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,920 which also leads them to a certain type of social conduct that is 400 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,880 contradictory to the requirements necessary to be active militants. 401 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,400 I would like other opinions in this regard. 402 00:30:47,601 --> 00:30:57,400 We know these people are anti-Franco, but... 403 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:09,480 I agree with your clarification 404 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:16,040 but I don't feel this applies to a majority 405 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:27,480 My experience in jail demonstrates the exact opposite. 406 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:33,760 Only a minority stop being politically active. 407 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:43,200 In the time we have spent together in jail 408 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,520 you should have been able to see 409 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:55,960 that a great majority of those who have been in there with us 410 00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:01,560 have continued to fight once they are back on the streets. 411 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:07,680 That is my opinion. 412 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,920 As far as my personal experience goes, 413 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:26,120 I think that those who spend a relatively short time in prison 414 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:32,840 get back into the fight much more easily 415 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:37,920 than those who have been locked up for a long time. 416 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:42,000 I think the latter have a hard time 417 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,040 picking up the rhythm of the fight again. 418 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:51,120 They is also confronted with a number of problems. 419 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:53,280 We've got to remember 420 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,520 that during the 35 years of Franco's dictatorship 421 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:06,240 some prisoners have done 17, 18, 20 years. 422 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:12,320 Many of them hardly know their children or their families. 423 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:18,440 I met my daughter while I was in prison 424 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:23,720 and that is where I met my daughter's kids, my grandchildren. 425 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,280 So, when a person is freed, 426 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,960 he is confronted with some very human problems, 427 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,920 there is a moral commitment involved. 428 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,440 But as far as joining the fight again, 429 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:44,000 and even though in jail he has tried to stay in touch, 430 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,600 he is slightly marginalized. 431 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,840 It is hard for him. 432 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,720 I can truthfully say it has been hard for me 433 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,560 and I am still having trouble 434 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,960 adapting to such a fast changing situation. 435 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,040 Such a different situation from 25 years ago. 436 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,320 Those long, long years, 437 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:17,520 revolutionaries condemned to 10, 20 years... 438 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:22,120 There are studies that demonstrate 439 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,320 that a sentence of more than 5 years 440 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:30,560 destroys a person's personality. 441 00:34:30,720 --> 00:34:33,800 It marks a person forever 442 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:41,000 and Franco's repression achieved its objective this way. 443 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,972 So what helps me find my place? 444 00:34:47,701 --> 00:34:50,460 Being able to share my problems. 445 00:34:53,610 --> 00:35:00,280 But after this first phase, after a while, 446 00:35:06,423 --> 00:35:08,950 Do you think you can continue to function as before? 447 00:35:09,021 --> 00:35:10,078 No 448 00:35:10,155 --> 00:35:13,033 Do you and others understand you in the same way? 449 00:35:13,164 --> 00:35:16,337 There the enemy has achieved what he intended. 450 00:35:16,434 --> 00:35:19,720 They have influenced your capacity and everything else. 451 00:35:21,720 --> 00:35:32,880 Even when talking, your language is not as quick as it was before, 452 00:35:33,143 --> 00:35:35,880 apart from the fact that you are much older. 453 00:35:37,363 --> 00:35:43,080 I think in our discussion we have been forgetting 454 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,942 an important question which is, the problems of women in prison. 455 00:35:48,137 --> 00:35:55,000 The problems of these women have been completely ignored. 456 00:35:55,158 --> 00:35:59,085 There has been talk of highly incorrect actions 457 00:35:59,206 --> 00:36:03,121 carried out inside the only women's prison. 458 00:36:03,512 --> 00:36:05,045 There have been criticisms 459 00:36:05,191 --> 00:36:09,583 but no one has ever gone in depth into these women's situation 460 00:36:09,796 --> 00:36:16,120 and the discrimination demonstrated by political organizations 461 00:36:16,289 --> 00:36:21,760 towards women who are serving time. 462 00:36:22,074 --> 00:36:28,360 I think we should go into why this has happened. 463 00:36:28,893 --> 00:36:31,960 First of all, compared to men in this situation, 464 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,300 women are a minority. 465 00:36:34,485 --> 00:36:40,400 There are few women political prisoners. 466 00:36:40,671 --> 00:36:45,000 Secondly, if a woman is captured, it is accidentally, 467 00:36:45,740 --> 00:36:48,436 usually because of her relationship with someone. 468 00:36:48,615 --> 00:36:52,258 She is a subsidiary militant. 469 00:36:53,423 --> 00:36:56,226 There are other cases 470 00:36:56,388 --> 00:36:59,660 where the woman participates politically 471 00:36:59,809 --> 00:37:05,800 and is extremely dedicated, but when she is imprisoned 472 00:37:06,100 --> 00:37:08,780 she begins to feel she has been abandoned. 473 00:37:09,053 --> 00:37:14,560 To what extent, women are attended exclusively from a sentimental aspect. 474 00:37:14,733 --> 00:37:21,040 Even though she receives hundreds of cards 475 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:27,420 for her birthday or on May 1st, 476 00:37:27,758 --> 00:37:31,052 she continues to suffer discrimination. 477 00:37:31,215 --> 00:37:38,400 A discrimination that is a reflect of the subsidiary aspect 478 00:37:38,634 --> 00:37:43,320 of the revolutionary woman 479 00:37:43,846 --> 00:37:46,000 Maybe this is beginning to be recognized, 480 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,560 but there is still a long way to go. 481 00:37:48,830 --> 00:37:54,300 regarding female militancy, regarding the revolutionary woman. 482 00:37:54,649 --> 00:37:57,240 We have found that 483 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,840 for more than two years, news has been sporadic. 484 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,618 The type of information received was triumphalist, 485 00:38:03,716 --> 00:38:09,000 which is gratifying emotionally but serves no other purpose 486 00:38:09,201 --> 00:38:12,220 and lacks any kind of information 487 00:38:12,404 --> 00:38:14,180 about the ongoing fight on the outside. 488 00:38:14,288 --> 00:38:17,880 The repercussions of this are serious in two ways: 489 00:38:18,042 --> 00:38:20,360 first because it verifies 490 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,340 a degradation of revolutionary militancy. 491 00:38:23,730 --> 00:38:27,461 It is a lack of connection 492 00:38:27,608 --> 00:38:31,088 with the general outline of the fight 493 00:38:31,300 --> 00:38:34,922 and a lack of perspective of a revolutionary future. 494 00:38:35,077 --> 00:38:38,043 This means that many times the sanctions in prison 495 00:38:38,210 --> 00:38:43,160 expose us to visceral situations due to a lack of perspective 496 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,414 at all political levels. 497 00:38:45,568 --> 00:38:47,920 And, in addition, this produces after effects 498 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,241 on that person when she is released. 499 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:54,159 It affects her reincorporation to the revolutionary fight on the streets. 500 00:38:55,520 --> 00:39:00,600 However, in spite of all the enemy's repressive action, 501 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,800 what the enemy has not achieved in most cases 502 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:11,600 is to make the revolutionary militant forget his principles, 503 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,120 not while he is in prison nor when he gets out. 504 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:21,800 I can say, from my own experience, that one of the things 505 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,920 that has helped me the most when released prison, 506 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,800 has been my contact with reality, 507 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:35,120 which even though we tried to be informed in prison, 508 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,600 is not the same thing as being there physically. 509 00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:41,560 What has been decisive in my case 510 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,640 has been not only contact with the veterans in this fight, 511 00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:48,920 with whom I was able to establish contact, 512 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,880 but also the new generations. 513 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,440 The new generations that had joined the fight. 514 00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:12,480 Observing them I felt like this was something we had contributed to. 515 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,600 Forgive me. 516 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,760 It was just a small contribution that resulted 517 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:24,040 in the mountain of changes in which we find ourselves. 518 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,760 As I say, that has been decisive for me 519 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:38,080 and I insist that except in very exceptional cases of desertion, 520 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:43,520 in general a man, in spite of having spent years in jail, 521 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:47,080 does not lose his revolutionary principles 522 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:53,560 and the enemy cannot achieve this in spite of his repression. 523 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:55,200 I'll tell you something, 524 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,160 I think, 525 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:09,560 the enemy, at times, is able to defeat an individual, 10, 100, 526 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:17,280 corners them, depoliticizes them, which is its fundamental objective, 527 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:24,160 turns them away, keeps them aside and they go back to private life. 528 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:32,680 But what the enemy has not achieved, up to now, 529 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:39,640 is to break, eliminate, the causes, the reasoning 530 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:45,440 for which we, and the future generations, 531 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:47,760 have and will go to prison. 532 00:41:48,240 --> 00:41:55,840 The enemy can defeat an individual, 2, 20, 200, or whatever, 533 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,240 - but not the cause. - Exactly. 534 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:05,720 When we get out of prison, we can be better or worse, or whatever, 535 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:12,520 but we do find one thing: the struggle continues, 536 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:19,160 and that is our victory and the enemy's defeat. 537 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:27,080 In my contact with the new generations and other people, 538 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:31,600 they always ask me the same question. 539 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:40,200 After explaining my experience, my 25 years in prison and all that, 540 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:44,240 they ask me: "Well, Narciso, 541 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,800 after so much suffering and so many years in jail, 542 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:55,040 what do you think of your sacrifice, was it worth it?" 543 00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:01,880 I have always given the same sincere answer and I still do. 544 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,720 All those sacrifices were worth it when I see all the changes 545 00:43:05,801 --> 00:43:09,480 and the situation I am living in right now. 546 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:15,160 Because, in a way, we feel we have contributed 547 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,480 in small measure perhaps, but we have contributed. 548 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:23,360 In my ten years in prison I have maintained 549 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,480 and experimented a series of unforgettable, 550 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,360 personal experiences, much more profound 551 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,440 than anything I ever felt when I was free. 552 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,440 And not simply the most pleasant ones. 553 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,360 I have felt the deepest fear. 554 00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,640 I have felt the greatest boredom. 555 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,520 I have been annoyed beyond belief. 556 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,520 In prison you masturbate with an incredibly emotional depth, 557 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,800 letting your imagination run to the limit 558 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,720 and it was the same when I was reading 559 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,360 or imagining trips while in punishment cells. 560 00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:05,240 I never thought man's imagination could reach so far. 561 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:10,640 I have seen comrades, friends, people give everything they've got 562 00:44:10,720 --> 00:44:13,640 like I have rarely seen on the outside. 563 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,760 I mean I have undergone unforgettable moments. 564 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,880 Of course it would be stupid to deduce from all this 565 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,560 that prison is the best of all possible worlds. 566 00:44:23,660 --> 00:44:28,840 Well, after such a nostalgic song to a lost world, I would also like 567 00:44:28,930 --> 00:44:30,696 to say something. I don't think a revolutionary 568 00:44:30,720 --> 00:44:33,320 discovers his enthusiasm for life in prison. 569 00:44:33,431 --> 00:44:37,160 One of the things I consider absolutely essential 570 00:44:37,339 --> 00:44:42,400 in the revolutionary fight is an enthusiasm for life. 571 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:47,360 Passion, energy. And this is previous to prison. 572 00:44:47,485 --> 00:44:51,176 In any case, what helps you discover human potential in prison, 573 00:44:51,241 --> 00:44:54,520 both in its positive and negative aspects, 574 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,600 is precisely this enthusiasm, this passion. 575 00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:59,160 And it continues afterwards. 576 00:44:59,327 --> 00:45:02,528 If it doesn't then we had better give up 577 00:45:02,663 --> 00:45:06,143 because you then become a melancholy ascetic, 578 00:45:06,580 --> 00:45:08,500 you turn into something absolutely negative. 579 00:45:10,678 --> 00:45:11,740 What do you think? 580 00:45:16,225 --> 00:45:18,500 It isn't just some moments when you feel a vocation. 581 00:45:19,579 --> 00:45:21,640 You can't live on a memory 582 00:45:21,720 --> 00:45:24,920 or on what is good and beautiful in prison. 583 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,480 30 years later 584 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,280 But unfortunately we didn't foresee, is the day that we were to come here, 585 00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:17,720 It is just the day that they execute, that the sentence is fulfilled against Puig Antich 586 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,320 In the Barcelona Model applying the garrote vil. 587 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,440 There was a lot of mobilization around this 588 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,640 and the police were very attentive. 589 00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:32,200 Next year will be 30 years, this was in 1974. 590 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,160 I swear it's that one! Look at it! 591 00:47:39,240 --> 00:47:40,640 He's down here. 592 00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:46,080 I came with Jordi Cunill and Pere Joan Ventura. 593 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:52,520 One of the most important things is to have the slightest information 594 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:54,280 in case you are arrested. 595 00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,136 That is, one of the keys to being able to say that you did not know anything 596 00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:01,400 Is that you only know, exclusively, to get here, what concerns you directly 597 00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:02,840 And if they asked me now 598 00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,240 How did they arrive? How did the material come first? 599 00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,761 And how did people come? 600 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,560 Which in this case were the express protagonists. 601 00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:11,840 Well I do not know. 602 00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,160 But everyone came phase in. 603 00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:16,960 You see, the kitchen here, look at it! 604 00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:19,520 With drawings... 605 00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:21,520 They were here. 606 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,960 Here is this window that I shoot while preparing... 607 00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:26,800 I remember very well, 608 00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,640 We had very good light and we made a frame here. 609 00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:30,800 I said: listen, 610 00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:35,040 Let's try this topic, If it seems okay, but from within. 611 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,680 The interlocutors at least all, Had two years in prison. 612 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:46,120 But it's not about making a kind of... Unloaded strong, very immediate, 613 00:48:46,240 --> 00:48:50,480 Is to try to touch the problems with the distance that allows being from here, 614 00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:55,400 And put what are the elements that most harm the individual in this case, 615 00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:00,400 As subject subject in a State, that is not of right, that is a dictatorship 616 00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,720 And that by the own ideas is confined in a prison 617 00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:06,600 like the ones at that time. 618 00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:11,920 Also a nice thing about them, is that they do not make one, they are not tearful, 619 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:15,160 They are not explaining that they suffered much, etc. 620 00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,240 This is splendid on their part, they are fighters. 621 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,080 They were fighting inside the prison, these, they were fighting! 622 00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:24,520 They had punishment cells... 623 00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:27,240 And here when they go out, they are talking about fighting. 624 00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,440 And the day that Puig Antich was killed, we met here, 625 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,360 And they, the first thing they said, is that the best we could do, 626 00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:39,320 It was this filming, as a gesture of solidarity, it was the best thing that could be done for liberties. 627 00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:41,000 And we went ahead, 628 00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,360 We forget the pressure of the police and end point. 629 00:49:55,805 --> 00:49:59,285 Oriol Arau's office, lawyer of Salvador Puig Antich 630 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:04,480 Well, this is dossier number 68 from 1973, 631 00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,680 which corresponds to Salvador Puig Antich. 632 00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:12,320 Although actually, to get a better view of this affair 633 00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:16,960 perhaps it would be best to have the file we keep in our office. 634 00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:24,880 This is a file that we call economic file… 635 00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:27,880 just a minute… sixty eight, 636 00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,280 well, these are files that we keep 637 00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,120 for our internal organization 638 00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:39,240 and these give us all the steps taken 639 00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,800 in regard to the client and any matters we have taken care of: 640 00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:47,840 visiting the courts, written documents, visits in jail, interviews… 641 00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:50,800 Of course, in these files, 642 00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,160 apart from the economic question, 643 00:50:53,240 --> 00:50:57,720 we also have a complete day to day summary of what is done about the matter in hand. 644 00:50:57,881 --> 00:51:01,960 Once the case is finished, we cancel the file and it is filed away. 645 00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:05,200 Would you please read the conclusion? 646 00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,920 We are now in 1974 647 00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:12,680 We begin on January 8 648 00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,640 with a visit to the prison by Mr. Condomines, the lawyer. 649 00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,320 January 9, a visit to the military government. 650 00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:22,200 February 10, a visit to the prison and an interview with the director. 651 00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:26,960 February 11, we attend a hearing at the Supreme Council of Military Justice. 652 00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:30,400 February 12, Visit to the Supreme Council of Justice. 653 00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,920 Interview with the lawyer, Mr. Garcia Trebijano. 654 00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,480 March 1, Dispatch from the Military Government 655 00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:41,200 the discharge of the Government met in a decision-making cabinet meeting. 656 00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:45,040 Visit to the prison and informing Salvador of his sentence. 657 00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:47,360 Spent all night in the prison. 658 00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:49,720 Three visits to the Bar Association. 659 00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:53,600 March 2, at twenty minutes to ten the sentence is carried out. 660 00:51:53,720 --> 00:51:55,080 Death of Salvador. 661 00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:56,440 Visit to the cemetery. 662 00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:58,760 Informing the Bar Association. 663 00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,920 March 3, attending the burial is prohibited. 664 00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:04,520 March 7, attending the funeral ceremony. 665 00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:09,560 March 8, the matter is accepted as finalized and it is filed away. 666 00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,400 Forty-four years later 667 00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,416 The Generalitat de Catalunya has been taken over by the Government of the State 668 00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,000 as a result of applying Article 155 of the Spanish Constitution, 669 00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:41,000 based, according to the resolution of the Council of Ministers, on: 670 00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,000 “Manifest, stubborn and deliberate non-compliance 671 00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,000 by the highest governmental and parliamentary institutions, 672 00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:50,000 involving rebellious, systematic and knowing disobedience, 673 00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:53,000 seriously affecting Spain’s general interests. 674 00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:56,000 The Government of the Nation is authorised to proceed 675 00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:59,040 to remove the President of the Generalitat de Catalunya, 676 00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,056 the Vice-president and the members of parliament forming the Government Council. 677 00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,000 After this removal has been ordered, 678 00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:07,000 the administration of the Generalitat de Catalunya 679 00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,000 shall act on the instructions of the bodies or authorities 680 00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:12,016 created or designated by the Government of the Nation.” 681 00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,400 Extract from the resolution of the Council of Ministers, 682 00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:17,000 signed by the president of the Government, Mariano Rajoy. 683 00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:20,000 Today, 25 January 2018, these political and judicial measures, 684 00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:23,000 amongst others, have entailed the order 685 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:26,000 for imprisonment of the President of the Generalitat de Catalunya, 686 00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,400 of the members of parliament in his cabinet, 687 00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,000 of part of the Parliament bureau, 688 00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,000 of the presidents of the civic organisations ANC and Òmnium Cultural 689 00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,000 and the investigation of hundreds of persons. 56354

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