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Good evening from Belmont University in Nashville, Tennessee. I'm Tom Brokaw of NBC News and
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welcome to the second presidential debate sponsored by the Commission on Presidential
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Debates. Tonight's debate is the only one with a town hall format. The Gallup organization
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chose 80 uncommitted voters from the Nashville area to be here with us tonight. And earlier
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today each of them gave me a copy of their question for the candidates. From all of these
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questions and from tens of thousands submitted online, I have selected a long list of excellent
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questions on domestic and foreign policy. Neither the Commission nor the candidates
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have seen the questions and although we won't be able to get to all of them tonight, we
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should have a wide ranging discussion one month before the election. Each candidate
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will have two minutes to respond to a common question and there will be a one minute follow
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up. The audience here in the hall has agreed to be polite and attentive, no cheering or
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outbursts. Those of you at home of course are not so constrained. The only exception
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in the hall is right now as it is my privilege to introduce the candidates, Senator Barack
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Obama of Illinois and Senator John McCain of Arizona. Gentlemen.
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We want to get underway immediately if we can. Since you left, I'm going to ask you
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a question. You and I last met at Ole Miss 12 days ago. The world has changed a great
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deal and not for the better. We still don't know where the bottom is at this time. As
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you might expect, many of the questions that we have from here in the hall tonight and
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from online have to do with the American economy and in fact with global economic conditions.
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I understand that you flipped a coin and Senator Obama, you'll begin tonight. And we're going
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to have our first question from over here in Section A from Alan Schaefer. Alan?
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With the economy on the downturn and retired and older citizens and workers losing their
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incomes, what's the fastest, most positive solution to bail these people out of the economic
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ruin?
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THE PRESIDENT. Well, Alan, thank you very much for the question. I want to first obviously
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thank Belmont University. Tom, thank you. And to all of you who are participating tonight
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and those of you who sent email questions in, I think everybody knows now we are in
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the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. And a lot of you, I think, are
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worried about your jobs, your pensions, your retirement accounts, your ability to send
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your child or your grandchild to college. And I believe this is a final verdict on the
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failed economic policies of the last eight years, strongly promoted by President Bush
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and supported by Senator McCain, that essentially said that we should strip away regulations,
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consumer protections, let the market run wild, and prosperity would rain down on all of us.
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It hasn't worked out that way. And so now we've got to take some decisive action. Now,
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step one was a rescue package that was passed last week. We've got to make sure that works
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properly. And that means strong oversight, making sure that investors, taxpayers are
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getting their money back and treated as investors. It means that we are cracking down on CEOs
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and making sure that they're not getting bonuses or golden parachutes as a consequence of this
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package. And, in fact, we just found out that AIG, a company that got a bailout, just a
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week after they got help went on a $400,000 junket. And I tell you what, the Treasury
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should demand that money back and those executives should be fired. But that's only step one.
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The middle class need a rescue package. And that means tax cuts for the middle class.
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It means help for homeowners so that they can stay in their homes. It means that we
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are helping state and local governments set up road projects and bridge projects that
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keep people in their jobs. And then long term, we've got to fix our health care system, we've
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got to fix our energy system that is putting such an enormous burden on families. You need
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somebody working for you and you've got to have somebody in Washington who's thinking
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about the middle class and not just those who can afford to hire lobbyists.
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Mr. Earnest Senator McCain?
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Senator McCain Well, thank you, Tom. Thank you, Belmont University. And, Senator Obama,
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it's good to be with you at a town hall meeting. And, Alan, thank you for your question. You
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go to the heart of America's worries tonight. Americans are angry, they're upset, and they're
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a little fearful. It's our job to fix the problem. I have a plan to fix this problem.
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And it's got to do with energy independence. We've got to stop sending $700 billion a year
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to countries that don't like us very much. We have to keep Americans' taxes low, all
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Americans' taxes low. Let's not raise taxes on anybody today. We obviously have to stop
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the spending spree that's going on in Washington. Do you know that we've laid a $10 trillion
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debt on these young Americans who are here with us tonight? $500 billion of it we owe
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to China. We've got to have a package of reforms, and it's got to lead to reform, prosperity,
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and peace in the world. And I think that this problem has become so severe, as you know,
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that we're going to have to do something about home values. You know that home values of
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retirees continues to decline, and people are no longer able to afford their mortgage
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payments. As President of the United States, Alan, I would order the Secretary of the Treasury
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to immediately buy up the bad home loan mortgages in America and renegotiate at the new value
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of those homes, at the diminished value of those homes, and let people make those be
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able to make those payments and stay in their homes. Is it expensive? Yes. But we all know,
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my friends, until we stabilize home values in America, we're never going to start turning
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around and creating jobs and fixing our economy. And we've got to give some trust and confidence
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back to America. I know how to do that, my friends. And it's my proposal. It's not Senator
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Obama's proposal. It's not President Bush's proposal. But I know how to get America working
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again, restore our economy, and take care of working Americans. Thank you.
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SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL
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Senator, we have one minute for a discussion here. Obviously, the powers of the Treasury
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Secretary have been greatly expanded. The most powerful officer in the Cabinet now,
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Hank Paulson, says he won't stay on. Who do you have in mind to appoint to that very
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important post? Senator McCain?
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SEN. JOHN MCCAIN
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Not you, Tom.
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SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL
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With good reason.
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SEN. JOHN MCCAIN
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You know, that's a tough question. And there's a lot of qualified Americans. But I think
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the first criteria, Tom, would have to be somebody who immediately Americans identify
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with, immediately say, we can trust that individual. Supporter of Senator Obama's is Warren Buffett.
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He's already weighed in and helped stabilize some of the difficulties in the markets and
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with companies and corporations, institutions today. I like Meg Whitman. She knows what
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it's like to be out there in the marketplace. She knows how to create jobs. Meg Whitman
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was the CEO of a company that started with 12 people and is now 1.3 million people in
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America make their living off eBay. Maybe somebody here has done a little business with
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him. But the point is, it's going to have to be somebody who inspires trust and confidence.
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Because the problem in America today, to a large extent, Tom, is that we don't have trust
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and confidence in our institutions because of the corruption on Wall Street and the greed
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and excess and the cronyism in Washington, D.C.
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SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL
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All right. Senator McCain, Senator Obama, who do you have in mind for Treasury Secretary?
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THE PRESIDENT Well, Warren would be a pretty good choice,
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Warren Buffett, and I'm pleased to have his support. But there are other folks out there.
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The key is making sure that the next Treasury Secretary understands that it's not enough
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just to help those at the top. Prosperity is not just going to trickle down. We've got
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to help the middle class. And we've โ Senator McCain and I have some fundamental disagreements
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on the economy, starting with Senator McCain's statement earlier that he thought the fundamentals
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of the economy were sound. Part of the problem here is that, for many of you, wages and incomes
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have flatlined. For many of you, it is getting harder and harder to save, harder and harder
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to retire. And that's why, for example, on tax policy, what I want to do is provide a
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middle-class tax cut to 95 percent of working Americans, those who are working two jobs,
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people who are not spending enough time with their kids because they are struggling to
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make ends meet. Senator McCain is right that we've got to stabilize housing prices. But
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underlying that is loss of jobs and loss of income. That's something that the next Treasury
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Secretary is going to have to work on.
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MR. ROMNEY. Senator Obama, thank you very much. May I
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remind both of you, if I can, that we're operating under rules that you signed off on, and when
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we have a discussion, it really is to be confined within about a minute or so. We're going to
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go now, Senator McCain, to the next question for you from the hall here. And it comes from
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Oliver Clark, who is over here in Section F. Oliver?
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MR. CLARK. Well, Senators, through this economic crisis, most of the people I know have had
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a difficult time. And through this bailout package, I was wondering what it is that's
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going to actually help those people out.
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SEN. JOHN BARRASSO. Well, thank you, Oliver. And that's an excellent question because,
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as you just described it, bailout, when I believe that it's rescue, because of the greed
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and excess in Washington and Wall Street, Main Street was paying a very heavy price.
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And we know that. I left my campaign and suspended it to go back to Washington to make sure that
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there were additional protections for the taxpayer, the form of good oversight and the
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form of taxpayers being the first to be paid back when our economy recovers. And it will
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recover and a number of other measures.
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But, you know, one of the real catalysts, really the match that lit this fire, was Fannie
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Mae and Freddie Mac. I'll bet you you may never even have heard of them before this
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crisis. But, you know, they're the ones that, with the encouragement of Senator Obama and
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his cronies and his friends in Washington, that went out and made all these risky loans,
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gave them to people that couldn't never afford to pay back. And, you know, there were some
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of us that stood up two years ago and said, we've got to enact legislation to fix this.
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We've got to stop this greed and excess. Meanwhile, the Democrats in the Senate and some members
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of Congress defended what Fannie and Freddie were doing. They resisted any change. Meanwhile,
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they were getting all kinds of money in campaign contributions.
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Senator Obama was the second highest recipient of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac money in history.
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In history. So this rescue package means that we will stabilize markets. We will buy, we
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will shore up these institutions. But it's not enough. That's why we're going to have
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to go out into the housing market and we're going to have to buy up these bad loans. And
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we're going to have to stabilize house, home values. And that way Americans can, like Alan,
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can realize the American dream and stay in their home. But Fannie and Freddie were the
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catalyst, the match that started this forest fire. There were some of us, there were some
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of us that stood up against it. There was others who took a hike.
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Senator Obama.
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Well, Oliver, first let me tell you what's in the rescue package for you. Right now,
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the credit markets are frozen up. And what that means as a practical matter is that small
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businesses and some large businesses just can't get loans. If they can't get a loan,
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that means that they can't make payroll. If they can't make payroll, then they may end
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up having to shut their doors and lay people off. And if you imagine just one company trying
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to deal with that, now imagine a million companies all across the country. So it could end up
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having an adverse effect on everybody. And that's why we had to take action. But we shouldn't
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have been there in the first place.
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Now, I've got to correct a little bit of Senator McCain's history, not surprisingly. Let's
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first of all understand that the biggest problem in this whole process was the deregulation
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of the financial system. Senator McCain as recently as March bragged about the fact that
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he is a deregulator. On the other hand, two years ago, I said that we've got a subprime
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lending crisis that has to be dealt with. I wrote to Secretary Paulson. I wrote to Federal
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Reserve Chairman Bernanke and told them this is something we have to deal with and nobody
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did anything about it. A year ago, I went to Wall Street and said we've got to re-regulate,
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and nothing happened. And Senator McCain during that period said that we should keep on deregulating
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because that's how the free enterprise system works. Now, with respect to Fannie Mae, what
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Senator McCain didn't mention is the fact that this bill that he talked about wasn't
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his own bill. He jumped on it a year after it had been introduced and it never got passed.
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And I never promoted Fannie Mae. In fact, Senator McCain's campaign chairman's firm
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was a lobbyist on behalf of Fannie Mae, not me. So โ but look, you're not interested
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in hearing politicians' pointy fingers. What you're interested in is trying to figure
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out how is this going to impact you. This is not the end of the process. This is the
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beginning of the process. And that's why it's going to be so important for us to work with
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homeowners to make sure that they can stay in their homes. The Secretary already has
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the power to do that in the rescue package, but it hasn't been exercised yet. And the
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next President has to make sure that the next Treasury Secretary is thinking about how to
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strengthen you as a homebuyer, you as a homeowner, and not simply think about bailing out banks
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on Wall Street.
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Senator Obama, time for discussion. I'm going to begin with you. Are you saying to Mr. Clark
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and to the other members of the American television audience that the American economy is going
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to get much worse before it gets better and they ought to be prepared for that?
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No. I am confident about the American economy. But we are going to have to have some leadership
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from Washington that not only sets out much better regulations for the financial system
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โ the problem is we still have an archaic 20th century regulatory system for 21st century
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financial markets โ we're going to have to coordinate with other countries to make
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sure that whatever actions we take work. But most importantly, we're going to have to help
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ordinary families be able to stay in their homes, make sure that they can pay their bills,
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deal with critical issues like health care and energy, and we're going to have to change
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the culture in Washington so that lobbyists and special interests aren't driving the process
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and your voices aren't being drowned out.
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Senator McCain, in all candor, do you think the economy is going to get worse before it
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gets better?
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I think it depends on what we do. I think if we act effectively, if we stabilize the
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housing market, which I believe we can if we go out and buy up these bad loans so that
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people can have a new mortgage at the new value of their home. I think if we get rid
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of the cronyism and special interest influence in Washington so we can act more effectively.
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My friend, I'd like you to see the letter that a group of senators and I wrote warning
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exactly of this crisis. Senator Obama's name was not on that letter. The point is, the
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point is that we can fix our economy. Americans, workers are the best in the world. They are
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the fundamental aspect of America's economy. They're the most innovative, they're the best
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at best, we're the best exporters, we're the best importers, they're most effective, they
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are the best workers in the world. And we've got to give them a chance. We've got to give
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them a chance to do their best again. And they are the innocent bystanders here in what
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is the biggest financial crisis and challenge of our time. We can do it.
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Thank you, Senator McCain. We're going to continue over in Section F, as it turns out.
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Senator Obama, this is a question from you, from Theresa Finch. Theresa?
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How can we trust either of you with our money when both parties got us into this global
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economic crisis?
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Well, look, I understand your frustration and your cynicism, because while you've been
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carrying out your responsibilities, most of the people here, you've got a family budget.
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If less money is coming in, you end up making cuts. Maybe you don't go out to dinner as
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much. Maybe you put off buying a new car. That's not what happens in Washington. And
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you're right, there's a lot of blame to go around. But I think it's important just to
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remember a little bit of history. When George Bush came into office, we had surpluses. And
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now we have a half-a-trillion-dollar deficit annually. When George Bush came into office,
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our debt, national debt, was around $5 trillion. It's now over $10 trillion. We've almost doubled
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it.
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And so while it's true that nobody is completely innocent here, we have had over the last eight
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years the biggest increases in deficit spending and national debt in our history. And Senator
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McCain voted for four out of five of those George Bush budgets.
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So here's what I would do. I'm going to spend some money on the key issues that we've got
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to work on. You may have seen your health care premiums go up. We've got to reform health
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care to help you and your budget. We are going to have to deal with energy, because we can't
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keep on borrowing from the Chinese and sending money to Saudi Arabia. We are mortgaging our
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children's future. We've got to have a different energy plan. We've got to invest in college
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affordability. So we're going to have to make some investments, but we've also got to make
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spending cuts.
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And what I've proposed you'll hear Senator McCain say, well, he's proposing a whole bunch
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of new spending. But actually I am cutting more than I'm spending so that it will be
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a net spending cut. The key is whether or not we've got priorities that are working
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for you as opposed to those who have been dictating policy in Washington lately, and
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that's mostly lobbyists and special interests. We've got to put an end to that.
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Senator McCain.
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Well, Teresa, thank you. And I can see why you feel that cynicism and mistrust, because
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the system in Washington is broken. And I have been a consistent reformer. I have advocated
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and taken on the special interests, whether they be the big money people by reaching across
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the aisle and working with Senator Feingold on campaign finance reform, whether it being
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a variety of other issues, working with Senator Lieberman on trying to address climate change.
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I have a clear record of bipartisanship. The situation today cries out for bipartisanship.
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Senator Obama has never taken on his leaders of his party on a single issue. And we need
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to reform. And so let's look at our records as well as our rhetoric. That's really part
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of your mistrust here. And now I suggest that maybe you go to some of these organizations
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that are the watchdogs of what we do, like the Citizens Against Government Waste or the
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National Taxpayers Union or these other organizations that watch us all the time. I don't expect
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you to watch every vote.
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And you know what you'll find? This is the most liberal big spending record in the United
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States Senate. I have fought against excessive spending and outrageous. I have fought to
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reduce the earmarks and eliminate them. Do you know that Senator Obama has voted for
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or is proposing $860 billion of new spending now? New spending? Do you know that he voted
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for every for every increase in spending that I saw come across the floor of the United
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States Senate while we were working to eliminate these pork barrel earmarks? He voted for
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nearly a billion dollars in pork barrel earmark projects, including, by the way, $3 million
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for an overhead projector at a planetarium in Chicago, Illinois. My friends, do we need
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to spend that kind of money? I think you have to look at my record and you have to look
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at his. Then you have to look at our proposals for our economy. Not $860 billion in new spending,
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but for the kinds of reforms that keep people in their jobs, get middle-income Americans
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working again and getting our economy moving again. You're going to be examining our proposals
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tonight and in the future. And energy independence is a way to do that, is one of them. And drilling
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offshore and nuclear power are two vital elements of that. And I've been supporting those. And
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I know how to fix this economy and eliminate our dependence on foreign oil and stop sending
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$700 billion a year over seats.
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Well, we've run out of time. We have this one-minute discussion period going on here.
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There are new economic realities out there that everyone in this hall and across this
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country understands that there are going to have to be some choices made. Health policies,
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energy policies, and entitlement reform, what are going to be your priorities in what order?
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Which of those will be your highest priority your first year in office and which will follow
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in sequence? Senator McCain.
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The three priorities were health.
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The three, health, health care, energy, and entitlement reform, Social Security and Medicare.
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In what order would you put them in terms of priorities?
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I think you can work on all three at once, Tom. I think it's very important that we reform
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our entitlement programs. My friends, we are not going to be able to provide the same benefit
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for present-day workers that we are going, that present-day retirees have today. We're
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going to have to sit down across the table, Republican and Democrat, as he did in 1983
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between Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill. I know how to do that. I have a clear record of reaching
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across the aisle, whether it be Joe Lieberman or Russ Feingold or Ted Kennedy or others.
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That's my clear record. We can work on nuclear power plants, build a whole bunch of them,
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create millions of new jobs. We have to have all of the above, alternative fuels, wind,
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tide, solar, natural gas, clean coal technology. All of these things we can do as Americans.
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And we can take on this mission. And we can overcome it. My friends, some of this $700
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billion ends up in the hands of terrorist organizations.
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As far as health care is concerned, obviously everyone is struggling to make sure that they
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can afford their premiums and that they can have affordable and available health care.
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That's the next issue. But we can do them all at once. There's no โ and we have to
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do them all at once. All three you mentioned are compelling national security requirements.
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I'm trying to play by the rules that you all established. One minute for discussion.
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Senator Obama, if you would, give us your list of priorities. There are some real questions
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about whether everything can be done at once.
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We're going to have to prioritize, just like a family has to prioritize. Now, I've listed
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the things that I think have to be at the top of the list. Energy we have to deal with
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today, because you're paying $3.80 here in Nashville for gasoline, and it could go up.
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And it's a strain on your family budget, but it's also bad for our national security, because
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countries like Russia and Venezuela and, in some cases, countries like Iran are benefiting
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from higher oil prices. So we've got to deal with that right away. That's why I've called
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for an investment of $15 billion a year over 10 years. Our goal should be, in 10 years'
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time, we are free of dependence on Middle Eastern oil. And we can do it.
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Now, when JFK said we're going to the moon in 10 years, nobody was sure how to do it,
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but we understood that if the American people make a decision to do something, it gets done.
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So that would be priority number one. Health care is priority number two, because that
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broken health care system is bad not only for families, but it's making our businesses
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less competitive. And number three, we've got to deal with education so that our young
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people are competitive in a global economy.
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But just one point I want to make, Tom. Senator McCain mentioned looking at our records. We
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do need to look at our records. Senator McCain likes to talk about earmarks a lot. And that's
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important. I want to go line by line through every item in the federal budget and eliminate
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programs that don't work and make sure that those that do work, work better and cheaper.
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But understand this. We also have to look at where some of our tax revenues are going.
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So when Senator McCain proposes a $300 billion tax cut, a continuation not only of the Bush
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tax cuts but an additional $200 billion that he's going to give to big corporations, including
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big oil companies, $4 billion worth, that's money out of the system. And so we've got
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to prioritize both our spending side and our tax policies to make sure that they're working
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for you. That's what I'm going to do as president of the United States.
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All right, gentlemen, I want to just remind you one more time about time. We're going
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to have a larger deficit than the federal government does if we don't get this under
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control here before too long.
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Senator McCain, for you, we have our first question from the Internet tonight. A child
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of the Depression, 78-year-old Fiora from Chicago. Since World War II, we have never
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been asked to sacrifice anything to help our country except the blood of our heroic men
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and women as president. What sacrifices, sacrifices will you ask every American to make to help
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restore the American dream and to get out of the economic morass that we're now in?
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Well, Fiora, I'm going to ask the American people to understand that there are some programs
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that we may have to eliminate. I first proposed a long time ago that we would have to examine
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every agency and every bureaucracy of government. And we're going to have to eliminate those
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that aren't working. I know a lot of them that aren't working. One of them is in defense
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spending, because I've taken on some of the defense contractors. I saved the taxpayers
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$6.8 billion in a deal for an Air Force tanker that was done in a corrupt fashion. I believe
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that we have to eliminate the earmarks. And sometimes those projects, not the overhead
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projector that Senator Obama asked for, but some of them that are really good projects,
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will have to be eliminated as well. And they'll have to undergo the same scrutiny that all
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projects should in competition with others. So we're going to have to tell the American
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people that spending is going to have to be cut in America. And I recommend a spending
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freeze that, except for defense, veterans affairs, and some other vital programs, we'll
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just have to have across the board freeze. And some of those programs may not grow as
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much as we would like for them to. But we can establish priorities with full transparency,
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with full knowledge of the American people, and full consultation, not done behind closed
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doors and shoving earmarks in the middle of the night into programs that we don't even
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sometimes we don't even know about until months later. And by the way, I want to go
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back a second. Look, we can attack health care and energy at the same time. We're not
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rifle shots here. We are Americans. We can, with the participation of all Americans, work
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together and solve these problems together. Frankly, I'm not going to tell that person
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without health insurance that I'm sorry you'll have to wait. I'm going to tell you Americans
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we'll get to work right away. And we'll get to work together. And we can get them all
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done, because that's what America has been doing.
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MR. GIBBS. Senator McCain, thank you very much. Senator Obama.
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THE PRESIDENT. You know, a lot of you remember the tragedy of 9-11 and where you were on
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that day, and how all of the country was ready to come together and make enormous changes
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to make us not only safer, but to make us a better country and a more unified country.
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And President Bush did some smart things at the outset, but one of the opportunities that
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was missed was when he spoke to the American people, he said, go out and shop. That wasn't
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the kind of call to service that I think the American people were looking for. And so it's
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important to understand that I think the American people are hungry for the kind of leadership
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that is going to tackle these problems not just in government, but outside of government.
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And let's take the example of energy, which we already spoke about. There is going to
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be the need for each and every one of us to start thinking about how we use energy. I
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believe in the need for increased oil production. We're going to have to explore new ways to
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get more oil, and that includes offshore drilling. It includes telling the oil companies that
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currently have 68 million acres that they're not using that either you use them or you
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lose them. We're going to have to develop clean coal technology and safe ways to store
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nuclear energy. But each and every one of us can start thinking about how can we save
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energy in our homes and in our buildings. And one of the things I want to do is make
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sure that we're providing incentives so that you can buy a fuel-efficient car that's made
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right here in the United States of America, not in Japan or South Korea, making sure that
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you are able to weatherize your home or make your business more fuel-efficient. And that's
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going to require effort from each and every one of us. And the last point I just want
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to make, I think the young people of America are especially interested in how they can
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serve. And that's one of the reasons why I'm interested in doubling the Peace Corps, making
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sure that we are creating a volunteer corps all across this country that can be involved
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in their community, involved in military service, so that military families and our troops are
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not the only ones bearing the burden of renewing America. That's something that all of us have
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to be involved with, and that requires some leadership from Washington.
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Mr. Daly. Senator Obama, as we begin very quickly our discussion period, President Bush,
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you'll remember last summer, said that Wall Street got drunk. A lot of people now look
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back and think the federal government got drunk and, in fact, the American consumers
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got drunk. How would you as President try to break those bad habits of too much debt
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and too much easy credit, specifically across the board for this country, not just at the
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federal level, but as a model for the rest of the country as well?
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The President Well, I think it starts with Washington. We've got to show that we've got
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good habits, because if we're running up trillion-dollar debts that we're passing on to the next generation,
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then a lot of people are going to think, well, you know what, there's easy money out there.
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It means โ and I have to, again, repeat this โ it means not just looking at the
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spending side, but also at the revenue side. I mean, Senator McCain has been talking tough
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about earmarks, and that's good. But earmarks account for about $18 billion of our budget.
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Now, when Senator McCain is proposing tax cuts that would give the average Fortune 500
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CEO an additional $700,000 in tax cuts, that's not sharing a burden. And so part of the problem,
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I think, for a lot of people who are listening here tonight is they don't feel as if they
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are sharing the burden with other folks. I mean, it's tough to ask a teacher who's making
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$30,000 or $35,000 a year to tighten her belt when people who are making much more than
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her are living pretty high on the hog. And that's why I think it's important for the
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President to set a tone that says all of us are going to contribute, all of us are going
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to make sacrifices, and it means that, yes, we may have to cut some spending, although
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I disagree with Senator McCain about an across-the-board freeze. That's an example of an unfair burden
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sharing. That's using a hatchet to cut the federal budget. I want to use a scalpel so
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that people who need help are getting help, and those of us like myself and Senator McCain
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who don't need help aren't getting it. That's how we make sure that everybody is willing
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to make a few sacrifices.
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Senator McCain.
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Right. You know, nailing down Senator Obama's various tax proposals is like nailing Jell-O
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to the wall. There's been five or six of them, and if you wait long enough, there will probably
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be another one. But he wants to raise taxes. My friends, the last president to raise taxes
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during tough economic times was Herbert Hoover, and he practiced protectionism as well, which
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I'm sure we'll get to at some point.
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You know, last year, up to this time, we've lost 700,000 jobs in America. The only bright
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spot is that 300 โ over 300,000 jobs have been created by small businesses. Senator
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Obama's secret that you don't know is that his tax increases will increase taxes on 50
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percent of small business revenue. Small businesses across America will have to cut jobs and will
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have their taxes increase and won't be able to hire because of Senator Obama's tax policies.
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You know, he said some time ago, he said he would forgo his tax increases if the economy
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was bad. I got some news, Senator Obama. The news is bad.
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So let's not raise anybody's taxes, my friends, and make it very clear to you, I am not in
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favor of tax cuts for the wealthy. I am in favor of leaving the tax rates alone and reducing
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the tax burden on middle-income Americans by doubling your tax exemption for every child
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from $3,500 to $7,000, to giving every American a $5,000 refundable tax credit and go out
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00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:43,400
and get the health insurance you want, rather than mandates and fines for small businesses,
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00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:48,940
as Senator Obama's plan calls for. And let's create jobs and let's get our economy going
408
00:35:48,940 --> 00:35:51,920
again and let's not raise anybody's taxes.
409
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,640
Senator Obama, we have another question from the Internet.
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00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,520
Tom, can I respond to this briefly?
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00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:03,480
Look, guys, the rules were established by the two campaigns. We worked very hard on
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this. This will address, I think, the next question.
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The tax issue, because I think it's very important. Go ahead.
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There are lots of issues that we're going to be dealing with here tonight. We have a
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00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:16,680
question from Langdon in Ballston Spa, New York, and that's about huge unfunded obligations
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00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:21,680
for Social Security, Medicare, and other entitlement programs that will soon eat up
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00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,120
all the revenue that's in place and then go into a deficit position.
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00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,480
Since the rules are pretty loose here, I'm going to add my own to this one. Instead of
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having a discussion, let me just ask you as a coda to that. Would you give Congress a
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00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:40,040
date certain to reform Social Security and Medicare within two years after you take office?
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Because in a bipartisan way, everyone agrees that's a big ticking time bomb that will eat
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00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,600
us up maybe even more than the mortgage crisis.
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Well, Tom, we're going to have to take on entitlements, and I think we've got to do
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00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,680
it quickly. We're going to have a lot of work to do, so I can't guarantee that we're going
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00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:02,120
to do it in the next two years. But I'd like to do it in my first term as President.
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00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:06,380
But I think it's important to understand we're not going to solve Social Security and Medicare
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00:37:06,380 --> 00:37:13,280
unless we understand the rest of our tax policies. And, Senator McCain, I think the straight
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00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:19,400
talk expressed loss of wheel on that one. So let's be clear about my tax plan and Senator
429
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,800
McCain's, because we're not going to be able to deal with entitlements unless we understand
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00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:30,800
the revenues coming in. I want to provide a tax cut for 95 percent of Americans. Ninety-five
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00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:40,600
percent. If you make less than a quarter million dollars a year, you will not see a single
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00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:47,600
dime of your taxes go up. If you make $200,000 a year or less, your taxes will go down. Now,
433
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:57,600
Senator McCain talks about small businesses. Only a few percent of small businesses make
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more than $250,000 a year. So the vast majority of small businesses would get a tax cut under
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00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:10,040
my plan. And we provide a 50 percent tax credit so that they can buy health insurance for
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00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,000
their workers, because there are an awful lot of small businesses that I meet all across
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00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:18,560
America that want to do right by their workers, but they just can't afford it. Some small
438
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:23,080
business owners, a lot of them can't even afford health insurance for themselves. Now,
439
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:30,080
in contrast, Senator McCain wants to give a $300 billion tax cut to 200 of it to the
440
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:38,160
largest corporations, and 100,000 of it โ 100 billion of it going to people like CEOs on
441
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:44,480
Wall Street. He wants to give the average Fortune 500 CEO an additional $700,000 in
442
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:51,480
tax cuts. That is not fair, and it doesn't work. Now, if we get our tax policies right
443
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:57,080
so that they're good for the middle class, if we reverse the policies of the last eight
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00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:01,440
years that got us into this fix in the first place and that Senator McCain supported, then
445
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,920
we are going to be in a position to deal with Social Security and deal with Medicare, because
446
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:12,000
we will have a health care plan that actually works for you, reduces spending and costs
447
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:18,280
over the long term, and Social Security that is stable and solvent for all Americans and
448
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:18,920
not just some.
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00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,280
Mr. McCain, two years for reform of entitlement programs.
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00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:29,280
I'll answer the question. Look, it's not that hard to fix Social Security, Tom. It's just
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00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:30,840
tough decisions.
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And Medicare.
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00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,880
I want to get to Medicare in a second. Social Security is not that tough. We know what the
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problems are, my friends, and we know what the fixes are. We've got to sit down together,
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00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:46,000
cross the table. It's been done before. I saw it done with our wonderful Ronald Reagan,
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00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:50,440
the conservative from California and the liberal Democrat, Tip O'Neill, from Massachusetts.
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00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,320
That's what we need more of. And that's what I've done in Washington. Senator Obama has
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00:39:54,320 --> 00:40:00,160
never taken on his party leaders on a single major issue. I've taken them on. I'm not too
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00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:04,080
popular sometimes with my own party, much less his.
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00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,360
So Medicare is going to be a little tougher. It's going to be a little tougher because
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00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:12,520
we're talking about very complex and difficult issues. My friends, what we have to do with
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00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:17,720
Medicare is have a commission, have the smartest people in America come together, come up with
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00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:23,840
recommendations. And then, like the base closing commission idea we had, then we should have
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Congress vote up or down. Let's not let them fool with it anymore. There's too much special
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00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,840
interest and too many lobbyists working there.
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00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:35,360
So let's have and let's have the American people say, fix it for us. Now, just back
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00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:41,200
on this on this tax, you know, again, it's back to our first question here about rhetoric
468
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:48,560
and record. Senator Obama has voted 94 times to either increase your taxes or against tax
469
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:53,680
cuts. That's his record. When he ran for the United States Senate from Illinois, he said
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00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:58,120
he would have a middle-income tax cut. You know, he came to the Senate and never once
471
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:04,000
proposed legislation to do that. So let's look at our record. I've fought higher taxes.
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00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,880
I have fought excess spending. I have fought to reform government. Let's look at our records,
473
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:14,080
my friends, and then listen to my vision for the future of America. And we'll get our economy
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00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:16,520
going again. And our best days are ahead of us.
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00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:20,920
Mr. Daly. Senator McCain, thank you very much. I'm going to stick by my part of the pack
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00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:26,320
and not ask a follow-up here. The next question does come from the hall. For Senator McCain,
477
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:32,040
it comes from Section C over here. And it's from Ingrid Jackson. Ingrid.
478
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:40,200
Senator McCain, I want to know, we saw that Congress moved pretty fast in the face of
479
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:44,960
an economic crisis. I want to know what you would do within the first two years to make
480
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:50,920
sure that Congress moves fast as far as environmental issues like climate change and green jobs.
481
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:57,840
Senator McCain. Well, thank you. Look, we are in tough economic times. We all know that.
482
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:03,720
And let's keep, never forget the struggle that Americans are in today. But when we can
483
00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:09,320
รฑ when we have an issue that we may hand our children and our grandchildren a damaged
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00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:14,840
planet, I have disagreed strongly with the Bush administration on this issue. I traveled
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00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:20,600
all over the world looking at the effects of greenhouse gas emissions. Joe Lieberman
486
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:25,280
and I introduced the first legislation. And we forced votes on it. That's the good news,
487
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:32,000
my friends. The bad news is we lost. But we kept the debate going. And we kept this issue
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00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,720
to posing to Americans the danger that climate change opposes.
489
00:42:36,720 --> 00:42:42,120
Now, how รฑ what's the best way of fixing it? Nuclear power. Senator Obama says that
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00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:46,920
it has to be safe or disposable or something like that. Look, I was on Navy ships that
491
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:51,760
had nuclear power plants. Nuclear power is safe and it's clean. And it creates hundreds
492
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:58,200
of thousands of jobs. And I know that we can reprocess the spent nuclear fuel, the Japanese,
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00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:03,920
the British, and the French do it. And we can do it, too. Senator Obama has opposed
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00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:09,520
that. We can move forward and clean up our climate and develop green technologies and
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00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:17,600
alternative energies for hybrid, for hydrogen, for battery-powered cars so that we can clean
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00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:22,760
up our environment and at the same time get our economy going by creating millions of
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00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:27,760
jobs. We can do that, we as Americans, because we're the best innovators, we're the best
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00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:32,720
producers, and 95 percent of the people who are our market live outside of the United
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00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:33,720
States of America.
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00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:35,720
Senator Obama?
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00:43:37,720 --> 00:43:45,360
This is one of the biggest challenges of our times. And it is absolutely critical that
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00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:52,040
we understand this is not just a challenge, it's an opportunity. Because if we create
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00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:58,160
a new energy economy, we can create 5 million new jobs easily here in the United States.
504
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:03,520
It can be an engine that drives us into the future the same way the computer was the engine
505
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:09,400
for economic growth over the last couple of decades. And we can do it, but we're going
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00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:15,240
to have to make an investment. The same way the computer was originally invented by a
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00:44:15,240 --> 00:44:19,720
bunch of government scientists who were trying to figure out for defense purposes how to
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00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:24,040
communicate, we've got to understand this is a national security issue as well. And
509
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:28,640
that's why we've got to make some investments. And I've called for investments in solar,
510
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:35,400
wind, geothermal. Contrary to what Senator McCain keeps on saying, I favor nuclear power
511
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:41,880
as one component of our overall energy mix. But this is another example where I think
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00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,640
it is important to look at the record. Senator McCain and I actually agree on something.
513
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:51,880
He said a while back that the big problem with energy is that for 30 years, politicians
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00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,160
in Washington haven't done anything. What Senator McCain doesn't mention is he's been
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00:44:55,160 --> 00:45:03,120
there 26 of them. And during that time, he voted 23 times against alternative fuels.
516
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:10,200
Twenty-three times. So it's easy to talk about this stuff during a campaign, but it's important
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00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:16,280
for us to understand that it requires a sustained effort from the next president.
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00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:21,960
One last point I want to make on energy. Senator McCain talks a lot about drilling, and that's
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00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:29,120
important. But we have 3 percent of the world's oil reserves, and we use 25 percent of the
520
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:35,160
world's oil. So what that means is that we can't simply drill our way out of the problem.
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And we're not going to be able to deal with the climate crisis if our only solution is
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to use more fossil fuels that create global warming. We're going to have to come up with
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00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:51,440
alternatives, and that means that the United States government is working with the private
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00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:55,600
sector to fund the kind of innovation that we can then export to countries like China
525
00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:01,560
that also need energy and are setting up one coal-powered plant a week. We've got to make
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00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:05,400
sure that we're giving them the energy that they need or helping them to create the energy
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that they need.
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MR. CLINTON. Gentlemen, you may not have noticed, but we have whites around here. They have
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red and green and yellow, and they are a signal to where we are.
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MR. BOOKER. I'm just trying to keep up with John.
531
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:16,280
MR. CLINTON. Okay, here, John.
532
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,440
MR. BOOKER. Take it like Tom. Wave like that way, and I'll look at you.
533
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:24,800
All right. Here's a follow-up to that one-minute discussion. It's a simple question.
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00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:25,800
MR. CLINTON. Sure.
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00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,880
MR. BOOKER. Should we fund a Manhattan-like project that developed a nuclear bomb to deal
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00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:36,200
with global energy and alternative energy, or should we fund 100,000 garages across America,
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00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,920
the kind of industry and innovation that developed Silicon Valley?
538
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:46,840
MR. CLINTON. I think pure research and development investment on the part of the United States
539
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:52,760
government is certainly appropriate. I think once it gets into productive stages that we
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00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,320
ought to obviously turn it over to the private sector.
541
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,120
By the way, my friends, I know you grow a little weary of this back and forth. It was
542
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:04,520
an energy bill on the floor of the Senate loaded down with goodies, billions for the
543
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:09,640
oil companies, and it was sponsored by Bush and Cheney. You know who voted for it? You
544
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:16,240
might never know. That one. You know who voted against it? Me. I have fought time after time
545
00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:22,680
against these bills that come to the floor, and they have all kinds of goodies and all
546
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:26,560
kinds of things in them for everybody, and they buy off the votes. I vote against them,
547
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:33,240
my friends. I vote against them. But the point is also, on oil drilling, oil drilling offshore
548
00:47:33,240 --> 00:47:40,840
now is vital so that we can bridge the gap. We can bridge the gap between imported oil,
549
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:45,280
which is a national security issue as well as any other, and it will reduce the price
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00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:50,040
of a barrel of oil because when people know there's a greater supply, then the cost of
551
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:55,120
that will go down. That's fundamental economics. We've got to drill offshore, my friends, and
552
00:47:55,120 --> 00:48:00,800
we've got to do it now. And we can do it. And as far as nuclear power is concerned,
553
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:07,320
again, again, look at the record. Senator Obama has approved storage and reprocessing
554
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,800
of spent nuclear fuel. And I'll stop, Tommy, and you didn't even weigh it. Thanks.
555
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:16,160
Thank you very much, Senator. Next question for you, Senator Obama, and it comes from
556
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:24,160
the E section over here, and it's from Lindsey Trella. Lindsey?
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00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:31,280
Senator, selling health care coverage in America as a marketable commodity has become a very
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profitable industry. Do you believe health care should be treated as a commodity?
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00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:45,360
Well, as I travel around the country, this is one of the single most frequently asked
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00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:52,400
issues that I get, is the issue of health care. It is breaking family budgets. I can't
561
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:56,880
tell you how many people I meet who don't have health insurance. If you've got health
562
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:03,480
insurance, most of you have seen your premiums double over the last eight years, and your
563
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:08,080
co-payments and deductibles have gone up 30 percent just in the last year alone. And
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00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:14,000
if you're a small business, it's a crushing burden. So one of the things that I have said
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00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:20,000
from the start of this campaign is that we have a moral commitment, as well as an economic
566
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imperative, to do something about the health care crisis that so many families are facing.
567
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:31,200
So here's what I would do. If you've got health care already, and probably the majority of
568
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:36,320
you do, then you can keep your plan if you are satisfied with it. You can keep your choice
569
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:42,880
of doctor. We're going to work with your employer to lower the cost of your premiums by up to
570
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$2,500 a year. And we're going to do it by investing in prevention. We're going to do
571
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it by making sure that we use information technology so the medical records are actually
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on computers. Instead of you filling forms out in triplicate when you go to the hospital,
573
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that will reduce medical errors and reduce costs. If you don't have health insurance,
574
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,960
you're going to be able to buy the same kind of insurance that Senator McCain and I enjoy
575
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:09,480
as federal employees. Because there's a huge pool, we can drop the cost, and nobody will
576
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:15,040
be excluded for preexisting conditions, which is a huge problem. Now, Senator McCain has
577
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:20,840
a different kind of approach. He says that he's going to give you a $5,000 tax credit.
578
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:26,760
What he doesn't tell you is that he is going to tax your employer-based health care benefits
579
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:31,760
for the first time ever. So what one hand giveth, the other hand taketh away. He would
580
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:36,360
also strip away the ability of states to provide some of the regulations on insurance companies
581
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:40,120
to make sure that you're not excluded for preexisting conditions, or your mammograms
582
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:47,120
are covered, or your maternity is covered. And that is fundamentally the wrong way to
583
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:53,440
go. In fact, just today, business organizations like the United States Chamber of Commerce,
584
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:59,000
which generally are pretty supportive of Republicans, said that this would lead to the unraveling
585
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of the employer-based health care system. That, I don't think, is the kind of change
586
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:06,160
that we need. We've got to have somebody who's fighting for patients and making sure that
587
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:10,280
you get decent, affordable health care. And that's something that I'm committed to doing
588
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:11,280
as President.
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00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:12,200
MR. SCHIEFFERMANN
590
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:13,200
Senator McCain.
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SEN. MCCAIN
592
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Well, thank you for the question. You really identify one of the really major challenges
593
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:24,960
that America faces. Copayments go up, costs go up, skyrocketing costs, which make people
594
00:51:25,240 --> 00:51:31,160
less and less able to afford health insurance in America. And we need to do all of the things
595
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:35,880
that are necessary to make it more efficient. Let's put health records online. That'll reduce
596
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:42,880
medical errors, as they call them. Let's have community health centers. Let's have walk-in
597
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:49,240
clinics. Let's do a lot of things to impose efficiencies. But what is at stake here in
598
00:51:49,240 --> 00:51:54,040
this health care issue is the fundamental difference between myself and Senator Obama.
599
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:57,880
As you notice, he starts talking about government. He starts to say, government will do this,
600
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:03,120
and government will do that, and then government will. And he'll impose mandates. If you're
601
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:09,560
a small business person and you don't insure your employees, Senator Obama will fine you.
602
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:14,600
That's remarkable. If you're a parent and you're struggling to get health insurance
603
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:21,600
for your children, Senator Obama will fine you. I want to give every American a $5,000
604
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:27,780
refundable tax credit. They can take anywhere, across state lines. Why not? Don't we go across
605
00:52:27,780 --> 00:52:32,640
state lines when we purchase other things in America? Of course it's okay to go across
606
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:38,120
state lines, because in Arizona, they may offer a better plan that suits you best than
607
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:44,440
it does here in Tennessee. And if you do the math, those people who have employer-based
608
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:50,760
health benefits, if you put the tax on it and you have what's left over, and you add
609
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:57,760
$5,000 that you're going to get as a refundable tax credit, do the math, 95% of the American
610
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:05,360
people will have increased funds to go out and buy the insurance of their choice and
611
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:10,400
to shop around and to get, all those people will be covered except for those who have
612
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:15,920
these gold-plated, Cadillac kinds of policies. You know, like hair transplants. I might need
613
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:22,680
one of those myself. But the point is that we have got to give people choice in America,
614
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:28,440
and not mandate things on them, and give them the ability. Every parent I know would acquire
615
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:33,240
health insurance for their children if they could. Obviously small business people want
616
00:53:33,240 --> 00:53:38,560
to give their employees health insurance. Of course they all want to do that. We've
617
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:43,720
got to give them the wherewithal to do it. We can do it by giving them, as a start, a
618
00:53:43,720 --> 00:53:48,480
$5,000 refundable tax credit to go around and get the health insurance policy of their
619
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:48,880
choice.
620
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:55,000
Borg. Quick discussion. Is health care in America a privilege, a right, or a responsibility,
621
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:56,000
Senator McCain?
622
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:04,040
I think it's a responsibility in this respect, in that we should have available and affordable
623
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:10,960
health care to every American citizen, to every family member. And with the plan that
624
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:17,960
I have, that will do that. But government mandates, I'm always a little nervous about.
625
00:54:18,980 --> 00:54:24,600
But it is certainly my responsibility, certainly small business people and others. And they
626
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:30,280
understand that responsibility. American citizens understand that. Employers understand that.
627
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:36,160
But they certainly are a little nervous when Senator Obama says, if you don't get the health
628
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:40,480
care policy that I think you should have, that you're going to get fined. And by the
629
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:45,080
way, Senator Obama has never mentioned how much that fine might be. Perhaps we might
630
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:45,880
find that out tonight.
631
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:49,600
Well, why don't we โ let's talk about this, Tom, because there was just a lot of stuff
632
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:49,920
out there.
633
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,520
Perfectly right responsibility. Sorry about that.
634
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:56,800
I think it should be a right for every American in a country as wealthy as ours for us to
635
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:01,680
have people who are going bankrupt because they can't pay their medical bills. For my
636
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:06,920
mother to die of cancer at the age of 53 and have to spend the last months of her life
637
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:11,320
in a hospital room arguing with insurance companies because they're saying that this
638
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,920
may be a preexisting condition and they don't have to pay her treatment, there's something
639
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:17,360
fundamentally wrong about that.
640
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:22,120
So let me just talk about this fundamental difference. And, Tom, I know that we're under
641
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:24,760
time constraints, but Senator McCain threw a lot of stuff out there.
642
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:29,480
Number one, let me just repeat, if you've got a health care plan that you like, you
643
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:33,920
can keep it. All I'm going to do is help you to lower the premiums on it. You'll still
644
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:38,280
have choice of doctor. There's no mandate involved. Small businesses are not going to
645
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:43,200
have a mandate. What we're going to give you is a 50 percent tax credit to help provide
646
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:46,040
health care for those that you need.
647
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:50,960
Now, it's true that I say that you are going to have to make sure that your child has health
648
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:56,360
care, because children are relatively cheap to insure and we don't want them going to
649
00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:00,080
the emergency room for treatable illnesses like asthma. And when Senator McCain says
650
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:04,840
that he wants to provide children health care, what he doesn't mention is he voted against
651
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:09,600
the expansion of the Children's Health Insurance Program that is responsible for making sure
652
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:13,840
that so many children who didn't have previously health insurance have it now.
653
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:20,120
Now, the final point I'll make is on this whole issue of government intrusion and mandates.
654
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:26,160
It is absolutely true that I think it is important for government to crack down on
655
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:33,640
insurance companies that are cheating their customers, that don't give you the fine print
656
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:38,120
so you end up thinking that you're paying for something and when you finally get sick
657
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:42,660
and you need it, you're not getting it. And the reason that it's a problem to go shopping
658
00:56:42,660 --> 00:56:48,760
state by state, you know what insurance companies will do? They will find a state, maybe Arizona,
659
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:54,480
maybe another state, where there are no requirements for you to get cancer screenings, where there
660
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:59,600
are no requirements for you to have to get preexisting conditions. And they will all
661
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:05,720
set up shop there. That's how in banking it works. Everybody goes to Delaware because
662
00:57:05,720 --> 00:57:11,720
they've got pretty loose laws when it comes to things like credit cards. And in that situation,
663
00:57:11,720 --> 00:57:16,840
what happens is, is that the protections you have, the consumer protections that you need,
664
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:19,720
you're not going to have available to you. That is a fundamental difference that I have
665
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:24,120
with Senator McCain. He believes in deregulation in every circumstance. That's what we've been
666
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:27,840
going through for the last eight years. It hasn't worked. And we need fundamental change.
667
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:32,480
Senator, we want to move on now. We come back to the hall here. We're going to shift gears
668
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:35,960
here a little bit and we're going to go to foreign policy and international matters if
669
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:36,960
we can.
670
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:40,600
Before we leave that, did we hear the size of the fine?
671
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:45,320
Phil Elliott is over here in this section. And Phil Elliott has a question for Senator
672
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:46,320
McCain. Phil?
673
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:53,600
Senator McCain, how will all the recent economic stress affect our nation's ability to act
674
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:56,320
as a peacemaker in the world?
675
00:57:56,320 --> 00:58:04,120
Well, I thank you for that question because there's no doubt that history shows us that
676
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:10,200
nations that are strong militarily over time have to have a strong economy as well. And
677
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:17,360
that is one of the challenges that America faces. But having said that, America and we'll
678
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:21,760
hear a lot of criticism, I've heard a lot of criticism about America and our national
679
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:27,440
security policy and all that. And much of that criticism is justified. But the fact
680
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:33,680
is America is the greatest force for good in the history of the world. My friends, we
681
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:39,080
have gone to all four corners of the earth and shed American blood in defense usually
682
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:45,640
of somebody else's freedom and our own. So we are peacemakers and we're peacekeepers.
683
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:50,880
But the challenge is to know when the United States of America can beneficially affect
684
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:57,920
the outcome of a crisis, when to go in and when not, when American military power is
685
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:04,200
worth the expenditure of our most precious treasure. And that question can only be answered
686
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:10,320
with someone with the knowledge and the experience and the judgment, the judgment to know when
687
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:15,200
our national security is not only at risk but where the United States of America can
688
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:20,280
make a difference in preventing genocide, in preventing the spread of terrorism, in
689
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:25,080
doing the things that the United States has done. Not always well, but we've done because
690
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:31,320
we're a nation of good. And I am convinced that my record, going back to my opposition
691
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:37,880
from sending the Marines to Lebanon to supporting our efforts in Kosovo and Bosnia and the first
692
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:44,120
Gulf War, and my judgment, I think, is something that I'm a record that I'm willing to stand
693
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:50,120
on. Senator Obama was wrong about Iraq and the surge. He was wrong about Russia when
694
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:56,320
they committed aggression against Georgia. And in his short career, he does not understand
695
00:59:56,320 --> 01:00:00,920
our national security challenges. We don't have time for on-the-job training, my friend.
696
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:07,840
Senator Obama, the economic constraints on U.S. military action around the world.
697
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:14,840
Well, you know, Senator McCain in the last debate and today again suggested that I don't
698
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:20,920
understand. It's true. There are some things I don't understand. I don't understand how
699
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:26,640
we ended up invading a country that had nothing to do with 9-11, while Osama bin Laden and
700
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:33,640
al Qaeda are setting up base camps and safe havens to train terrorists to attack us. That
701
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:38,200
was Senator McCain's judgment, and it was the wrong judgment. When Senator McCain was
702
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:42,440
cheerleading the President to go into Iraq, he suggested it was going to be quick and
703
01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:48,280
easy, we'd be greeted as liberators. That was the wrong judgment. And it's been costly
704
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:55,280
to us. So one of the difficulties with Iraq is that it has put an enormous strain, first
705
01:00:55,440 --> 01:01:01,400
of all, on our troops, obviously, and they have performed heroically and honorably, and
706
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:06,280
we owe them an extraordinary debt of gratitude. But it's also put an enormous strain on our
707
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:13,280
budget. We've spent so far close to $700 billion, and if we continue on the path that we're
708
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:20,280
on, as Senator McCain is suggesting, it's going to go well over a trillion dollars.
709
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:27,280
We're spending $10 billion a month in Iraq at a time when the Iraqis have a $79 billion
710
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:34,280
surplus. Seventy-nine billion dollars. And we need that $10 billion a month here in the
711
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:39,280
United States to put people back to work, to do all these wonderful things that Senator
712
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:44,280
McCain suggested we should be doing but has not yet explained how he would pay for.
713
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:50,080
Now, Senator McCain and I do agree this is the greatest nation on Earth. We are a force
714
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:55,480
of good in the world. But there has never been a nation in the history of the world
715
01:01:55,480 --> 01:02:02,480
that saw its economy decline and maintained its military superiority, and the strains
716
01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:07,840
that have been placed on our alliances around the world, and the respect that's been diminished
717
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:12,900
over the last eight years, has constrained us in able to act on something like the genocide
718
01:02:12,900 --> 01:02:18,200
in Darfur because we don't have the resources or the allies to do everything that we should
719
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:22,740
be doing. That's going to change when I'm President, but we can't change it unless we
720
01:02:22,740 --> 01:02:28,360
fundamentally change Senator McCain's and George Bush's foreign policy. It has not worked
721
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:29,360
for America.
722
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:33,480
Senator Obama, let me ask you, let's see if we can establish tonight the Obama doctrine
723
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:39,720
and the McCain doctrine for the use of United States combat forces in situations where there's
724
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:45,280
a humanitarian crisis, but it does not affect our national security. Take the Congo, where
725
01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:51,000
4.5 million people have died since 1998. Or take Rwanda in the earlier and dreadful days.
726
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:56,400
Or Somalia. What is the Obama doctrine for use of force that the United States would
727
01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:58,720
send when we don't have national security issues at stake?
728
01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:04,320
Well, we may not always have national security issues at stake, but we have moral issues
729
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:12,360
at stake. If we could have intervened effectively in the Holocaust, who among us would say that
730
01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:20,680
we had a moral obligation not to go in? If we could have stopped Rwanda, surely if we
731
01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:27,080
had the ability, that would be something that we would have to strongly consider and act.
732
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:32,680
So when genocide is happening, when ethnic cleansing is happening somewhere around the
733
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:41,920
world and we stand idly by, that diminishes us. And so I do believe that we have to consider
734
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:46,360
it as part of our interests, our national interests, in intervening where possible.
735
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:51,840
But understand that there's a lot of cruelty around the world. We're not going to be able
736
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:57,920
to be everywhere all the time. That's why it's so important for us to be able to work
737
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:03,400
in concert with our allies. Let's take the example of Darfur just for a moment. Right
738
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:09,320
now, there is a peacekeeping force that has been set up, and we have African Union troops
739
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:13,240
in Darfur to stop a genocide that has killed hundreds of thousands of people. We could
740
01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:18,760
be providing logistical support, setting up a no-fly zone, at relatively little cost to
741
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:24,440
us. But we can only do it if we can help mobilize the international community and lead.
742
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:25,960
And that's what I intend to do when I'm President.
743
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:28,360
MR. SCHIEFFERMANN Senator McCain, the McCain doctrine, if you will.
744
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:34,720
SEN. MCCAIN Well, let me just follow up, my friends. If we had done what Senator Obama
745
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:39,720
wanted done in Iraq, and that was set a date for withdrawal, which General Petraeus, our
746
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:44,480
chief of staff, our chairman of our Joint Chiefs of Staff, said would be a very dangerous
747
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:49,480
course to take for America, then we would have had a wider war. We would have been back.
748
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:53,720
Iranian influence would have increased. Al Qaeda would have reestablished a base. There
749
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:59,760
was a lot at stake there, my friends. And I can tell you right now that Senator Obama
750
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:04,200
would have brought our troops home in defeat. I'll bring them home with victory and with
751
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:06,560
honor. And that is a fundamental difference.
752
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:12,340
The United States of America, Tom, is the greatest force for good, as I said. And we
753
01:05:12,340 --> 01:05:18,580
must do whatever we can to prevent genocide, whatever we can to prevent these terrible
754
01:05:18,580 --> 01:05:23,700
calamities that we have said never again. But it also has to be tempered with our ability
755
01:05:23,700 --> 01:05:30,420
to beneficially affect the situation. That requires a cool hand at the tiller. This requires
756
01:05:30,420 --> 01:05:35,580
a person who understands what are the limits of our capability are.
757
01:05:35,580 --> 01:05:42,580
We went in to Somalia as a peacemaking organization. We ended up trying to be, excuse me, as peacekeeping
758
01:05:44,060 --> 01:05:51,060
organization. We ended up trying to be peacemakers. And we ended up having to withdraw in humiliation.
759
01:05:51,500 --> 01:05:56,740
In Lebanon, I stood up to President Reagan, my hero, and said, if we send Marines in there,
760
01:05:56,740 --> 01:06:02,700
how can we possibly beneficially affect this situation, and said we shouldn't. Unfortunately,
761
01:06:02,700 --> 01:06:08,660
almost 300 brave young Marines were killed. So you have to temper your decisions with
762
01:06:08,660 --> 01:06:15,220
the ability to beneficially affect the situation and realize you're sending America's most
763
01:06:15,220 --> 01:06:19,620
precious asset, American blood, into harm's way.
764
01:06:19,620 --> 01:06:25,860
And again, I know those situations. I've been in them all my life. And I can tell you right
765
01:06:25,860 --> 01:06:31,260
now, the security of your young men and women who are serving in the military are my first
766
01:06:31,260 --> 01:06:36,700
priority right after our nation's security. And I may have to make those tough decisions,
767
01:06:36,700 --> 01:06:42,460
but I won't take them lightly. And I understand that we have to say never again to a Holocaust
768
01:06:42,460 --> 01:06:48,860
and never again to Rwanda. But we also better be darn sure we don't leave and make the situation
769
01:06:48,860 --> 01:06:55,140
worse, thereby exacerbating our reputation and our ability to address crises in other
770
01:06:55,140 --> 01:06:55,980
parts of the world.
771
01:06:55,980 --> 01:07:00,060
Mr. Earnest. Senator McCain, thank you very much. Next question for Senator Obama. It
772
01:07:00,060 --> 01:07:03,820
comes from the F section, and it's from Katie Hamm. Katie.
773
01:07:03,820 --> 01:07:12,820
Q Should the United States respect Pakistani sovereignty and not pursue al Qaeda terrorists
774
01:07:12,820 --> 01:07:17,820
who maintain bases there? Or should we ignore their borders and pursue our enemies, like
775
01:07:17,820 --> 01:07:20,500
we did in Cambodia during the Vietnam War?
776
01:07:20,500 --> 01:07:28,460
THE PRESIDENT Katie, it's a terrific question. And we have a difficult situation in Pakistan.
777
01:07:28,460 --> 01:07:32,860
I believe that part of the reason we have a difficult situation is because we made a
778
01:07:32,860 --> 01:07:38,260
bad judgment going into Iraq in the first place when we hadn't finished the job of hunting
779
01:07:38,260 --> 01:07:44,860
down bin Laden and crushing al Qaeda. So what happened was we got distracted, we diverted
780
01:07:44,860 --> 01:07:52,300
resources, and ultimately bin Laden escaped, set up base camps in the mountains of Pakistan
781
01:07:52,300 --> 01:07:58,940
in the northwest provinces there. They are now raiding our troops in Afghanistan, destabilizing
782
01:07:58,940 --> 01:08:04,700
the situation. They're stronger now than at any time since 2001. And that's why I think
783
01:08:04,700 --> 01:08:09,020
it's so important for us to reverse course, because that's the central front on terrorism.
784
01:08:09,020 --> 01:08:15,700
They are plotting to kill Americans right now. As Secretary Gates, the Defense Secretary,
785
01:08:15,700 --> 01:08:22,740
said, the war against terrorism began in that region and that's where it will end. So part
786
01:08:22,740 --> 01:08:26,100
of the reason I think it's so important for us to end the war in Iraq is to be able to
787
01:08:26,100 --> 01:08:29,860
get more troops into Afghanistan, put more pressure on the Afghan government to do what
788
01:08:29,860 --> 01:08:34,340
it needs to do, eliminate some of the drug trafficking that's funding terrorism. But
789
01:08:34,340 --> 01:08:40,860
I do believe that we have to change our policies with Pakistan. We can't coddle, as we did,
790
01:08:40,860 --> 01:08:45,980
a dictator, give him billions of dollars, and then he's making peace treaties with the
791
01:08:45,980 --> 01:08:52,940
Taliban and militants. What I've said is we're going to encourage democracy in Pakistan,
792
01:08:52,940 --> 01:09:01,020
expand our non-military aid to Pakistan so that they have more of a stake in working
793
01:09:01,060 --> 01:09:06,900
with us, but insisting that they go after these militants. And if we have Osama bin
794
01:09:06,900 --> 01:09:13,900
Laden in our sights and the Pakistani government is unable or unwilling to take them out, then
795
01:09:14,780 --> 01:09:19,500
I think that we have to act. And we will take them out. We will kill bin Laden. We will
796
01:09:19,500 --> 01:09:23,180
crush al Qaeda. That has to be our biggest national security priority.
797
01:09:23,900 --> 01:09:24,900
Senator McCain.
798
01:09:24,900 --> 01:09:35,220
Well, Katie, thank you. You know, my hero is a guy named Teddy Roosevelt. Teddy Roosevelt
799
01:09:35,220 --> 01:09:41,940
used to say, walk softly, talk softly, but carry a big stick. Senator Obama likes to
800
01:09:41,940 --> 01:09:48,700
talk loudly. In fact, he said he wants to announce that he's going to attack Pakistan.
801
01:09:48,740 --> 01:09:56,220
Remarkable. You know, if you are a country and you're trying to gain the support of another
802
01:09:56,220 --> 01:10:02,460
country, then you want to do everything you can that they would act in a cooperative fashion.
803
01:10:02,460 --> 01:10:06,980
When you announce that you're going to launch an attack into another country, it's pretty
804
01:10:06,980 --> 01:10:11,340
obvious that you have the effect that it had in Pakistan. It turns public opinion against
805
01:10:11,340 --> 01:10:17,740
us. Now, let me just go back with you very briefly. We drove the Russians out with the
806
01:10:17,740 --> 01:10:22,060
Afghan freedom fighters, drove the Russians out of Afghanistan, and then we made this
807
01:10:22,060 --> 01:10:28,020
most serious mistake. We washed our hands of Afghanistan. The Taliban came back in,
808
01:10:28,020 --> 01:10:35,340
al Qaeda, and we then had the situation that required us to conduct the Afghan war. Now,
809
01:10:35,340 --> 01:10:41,300
our relations with Pakistan are critical because the border areas are being used as safe havens
810
01:10:41,300 --> 01:10:48,340
by the Taliban and al Qaeda and other extremist organizations. And we have to get their support.
811
01:10:48,340 --> 01:10:55,260
Now, General Petraeus had a strategy, the same strategy, very different because of the
812
01:10:55,260 --> 01:11:01,140
conditions and the situation, but the same fundamental strategy that succeeded in Iraq,
813
01:11:01,140 --> 01:11:06,400
and that is to get the support of the people. We need to help the Pakistani government go
814
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:12,160
into Waziristan, where I visited, a very rough country, and get the support of the people
815
01:11:12,160 --> 01:11:17,800
and get them to work with us and turn against the cruel Taliban and others, and by working
816
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:22,560
and coordinating our efforts together, not threatening to attack them, but working with
817
01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:28,840
them, and where necessary, use force, but talk softly, but carry a big stick.
818
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:29,840
Mr. Rhodes. Senator McCain.
819
01:11:29,840 --> 01:11:30,840
Mr. McCain.
820
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:33,000
Mr. Obama. Tom, just a quick follow-up on this. I think...
821
01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:35,600
Mr. McCain. If we're going to have follow-ups, then I will want follow-ups.
822
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:39,000
Mr. Obama. No, no, no, I know. So I think we'll get at it if I can with this question.
823
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:40,000
Mr. McCain. You're fine with me. You're fine with me.
824
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:41,000
Mr. Obama. All right, let's have a follow-up.
825
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:42,000
Mr. McCain. You're fine with me.
826
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:44,680
Mr. Obama. Just a quick follow-up, because I think this is important.
827
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:46,560
Mr. McCain. I'm just a hired health care. So I mean...
828
01:11:46,560 --> 01:11:54,400
Mr. Obama. You're doing a great job, Tom. Look, I want to be very clear about what I
829
01:11:54,400 --> 01:12:00,520
said. Nobody called for the invasion of Pakistan. Senator McCain continues to repeat this. What
830
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:06,920
I said was the same thing that the audience here today heard me say, which is if Pakistan
831
01:12:06,920 --> 01:12:15,880
is unable or unwilling to hunt down bin Laden and take him out, then we should. Now, that
832
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:21,760
I think has to be our policy, because they are threatening to kill more Americans. Now,
833
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:28,720
Senator McCain suggests that somehow, you know, I'm green behind the ears and I've just
834
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:33,040
spouted off and he's somber and responsible.
835
01:12:33,040 --> 01:12:34,040
Mr. McCain. Thank you very much.
836
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:37,960
The President. Senator McCain, this is the guy who sang,
837
01:12:37,960 --> 01:12:44,320
bomb, bomb, bomb Iran, who called for the annihilation of North Korea. That I don't
838
01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:50,520
think is an example of speaking softly. This is the person who, after we had we hadn't
839
01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:57,000
even finished Afghanistan, where he said, next up, Baghdad. So I agree that we have
840
01:12:57,000 --> 01:13:05,360
to speak responsibly and we have to act responsibly. And the reason Pakistan, the popular opinion
841
01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:10,960
of America had diminished in Pakistan was because we were supporting a dictator, Musharraf,
842
01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:17,160
had given him $10 billion over seven years, and he had suspended civil liberties. We were
843
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:23,720
not promoting democracy. This is the kind of policies that ultimately end up undermining
844
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:26,880
our ability to fight the war on terrorism, and it will change when I'm President.
845
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:31,080
Mr. McCain. Tom, if we're going to go back and forth, I then I'd like to have equal time
846
01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:32,520
to go to respond.
847
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:35,520
Mr. Osnos. Yeah, you get to last word here, and then we have to move on.
848
01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:42,080
Mr. McCain. Not true. Not true. I have obviously supported those efforts that the United States
849
01:13:42,080 --> 01:13:48,120
had to go in militarily, and I have opposed those that I didn't think so. I understand
850
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:53,560
what it's like to send young Americans in harm's way. I say I was joking with a veteran.
851
01:13:53,600 --> 01:13:57,000
I hate to even go into this. I was joking with an old veteran friend who joked with
852
01:13:57,000 --> 01:14:06,280
me about Iran. But the point is that I know how to handle these crises, and Senator Obama,
853
01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:11,240
by saying that he would attack Pakistan, look at the context of his words. I'll get Osama
854
01:14:11,240 --> 01:14:17,360
bin Laden, my friends. I'll get him. I know how to get him. I'll get him no matter what,
855
01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:22,440
and I know how to do it. But I'm not going to telegraph my punches, which is what Senator
856
01:14:22,440 --> 01:14:28,160
Obama did, and I'm going to act responsibly as I have acted responsibly throughout my
857
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:34,140
military career and throughout my career in the United States Senate. And we have fundamental
858
01:14:34,140 --> 01:14:39,280
disagreements about the use of military power and how you do it, and you just saw it in
859
01:14:39,280 --> 01:14:41,440
response to previous questions.
860
01:14:41,440 --> 01:14:45,000
Can I get a quick response from the two of you about developments in Afghanistan this
861
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:50,280
week? The senior British military commander, who is now leaving after a second tour, and
862
01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:55,320
their senior diplomatic presence there, Sherrod Cooper Coles, who is well known as an expert
863
01:14:55,320 --> 01:15:01,120
in the area, both have said that we're failing in Afghanistan. The commander said we cannot
864
01:15:01,120 --> 01:15:06,040
win there. We've got to get it down to a low-level insurgency, let the Afghans take it over.
865
01:15:06,040 --> 01:15:11,640
Cooper Coles said what we need is an acceptable dictator. If either of you becomes president,
866
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:17,880
as one of you will, how do you reorganize Afghanistan's strategy, or do you? Briefly,
867
01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:18,880
if you can.
868
01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:27,400
Very briefly. We are going to have to make the Iraqi government start taking more responsibility,
869
01:15:27,400 --> 01:15:34,320
withdraw our troops in a responsible way over time, because we're going to have to put some
870
01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:41,600
additional troops in Afghanistan. General McKiernan, the commander in Afghanistan right
871
01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:50,200
now, is desperate for more help because our bases and outposts are now targets for more
872
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:55,360
aggressive Afghan Taliban offensives. We're also going to have to work with the Karzai
873
01:15:55,360 --> 01:16:00,640
government. And when I met with President Karzai, I was very clear that you are going
874
01:16:00,640 --> 01:16:05,280
to have to do better by your people in order for us to gain the popular support that's
875
01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:09,640
necessary. I don't think he has to be a dictator. We want a democracy in Afghanistan. But we
876
01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:15,000
have to have a government that is responsive to the Afghan people. And, frankly, it's just
877
01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:16,480
not responsive right now.
878
01:16:16,480 --> 01:16:18,600
Senator McCain, briefly.
879
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:25,440
General Petraeus has just taken over a position of responsibility where he has the command
880
01:16:25,440 --> 01:16:31,600
and will really set the tone for the strategy and tactics that are using. I've had conversations
881
01:16:31,600 --> 01:16:37,240
with him. It is the same overall strategy. Of course we have to do some things tactically,
882
01:16:37,520 --> 01:16:42,720
some of which Senator Obama is correct on. We have to double the size of the Afghan army.
883
01:16:42,720 --> 01:16:47,040
We have to have a streamlined NATO command structure. We have to do a lot of things.
884
01:16:47,040 --> 01:16:52,440
We have to work much more closely with the Pakistanis. But most importantly, we have
885
01:16:52,440 --> 01:16:58,800
to have the same strategy which Senator Obama said wouldn't work, couldn't work, still fails
886
01:16:58,800 --> 01:17:03,600
to admit that he was wrong about Iraq. He still will not admit that he was wrong about
887
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:10,600
the strategy of the surge in Iraq. And that's the same kind of strategy of go out and secure
888
01:17:10,760 --> 01:17:17,200
and hold and allow people to live normal lives. And once they feel secure, then they lead
889
01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:23,960
normal social, economic, political lives. The same thing that's happening in Iraq today.
890
01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:29,200
So I have confidence that General Petraeus, working with the Pakistanis, working with
891
01:17:29,200 --> 01:17:34,480
the Afghans, doing the same job that he did in Iraq, will again, we will succeed and we
892
01:17:34,480 --> 01:17:38,120
will bring our troops home with honor and victory and not in defeat.
893
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:41,800
Mr. Daly. Senator McCain, this question is for you from the Internet. It's from Alden
894
01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:47,720
in Hewitt, Texas. How can we apply pressure to Russia for humanitarian issues in an effective
895
01:17:47,720 --> 01:17:49,360
manner without starting another Cold War?
896
01:17:49,360 --> 01:17:54,200
Senator McCain. First of all, I say I don't think we're not going to have another Cold
897
01:17:54,240 --> 01:18:01,240
War with Russia. But have no doubt that Russia's behavior is certainly outside the norms of
898
01:18:03,080 --> 01:18:08,440
behavior that we would expect for nations which are very wealthy, as Russia has become
899
01:18:08,440 --> 01:18:14,920
because of their petrodollars. Now, long ago I warned about Vladimir Putin. I said I looked
900
01:18:14,920 --> 01:18:21,120
into his eyes and saw three letters, a K, a G, and a B. He has surrounded himself with
901
01:18:21,120 --> 01:18:26,560
former KGB apparatchiks. He has gradually repressed most of the liberties that we would
902
01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:33,560
expect for nations to observe. And he has exhibited most aggressive behavior, obviously
903
01:18:34,080 --> 01:18:41,080
in Georgia, said before, watch Ukraine. Ukraine right now is in the sights of Vladimir Putin,
904
01:18:41,520 --> 01:18:47,600
those that want to reassemble the old Soviet Union. We've got to show moral support for
905
01:18:47,640 --> 01:18:52,680
Georgia. We've got to show moral support for Ukraine. We've got to advocate for their membership
906
01:18:52,680 --> 01:18:58,240
in NATO. We have to make the Russians understand that there are penalties for this kind of
907
01:18:58,240 --> 01:19:05,240
behavior, this kind of naked aggression into Georgia, a tiny country and a tiny democracy.
908
01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:11,920
And so, of course, we want to bring international pressures to bear on Russia in hopes that
909
01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:17,280
that will modify and eventually change their behavior. Now, the G8 is one of those, but
910
01:19:17,280 --> 01:19:24,280
there are many others. But the Russians must understand that these kinds of actions and
911
01:19:25,160 --> 01:19:31,520
activities are not acceptable. And hopefully we will use the leverage, economic, diplomatic
912
01:19:31,520 --> 01:19:36,880
and others, and unite it with our allies, with our allies and friends in Europe who
913
01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:40,320
are equally disturbed as we are about their recent behavior.
914
01:19:40,320 --> 01:19:44,640
Mr. Earnest. Senator Obama will not be a re-ignition of the Cold War, but Russia is a challenge.
915
01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:48,520
Senator Obama? We're winding down so we can keep track of the time.
916
01:19:48,520 --> 01:19:53,280
The President Well, the resurgence of Russia is one of the
917
01:19:53,280 --> 01:20:00,280
central issues that we're going to have to deal with in the next presidency. And for
918
01:20:00,920 --> 01:20:05,360
the most part, I agree with Senator McCain on many of the steps that have to be taken,
919
01:20:05,360 --> 01:20:10,080
but we can't just provide moral support. We've got to provide moral support to the Poles
920
01:20:10,080 --> 01:20:15,840
and Estonia and Latvia and all the nations that were former Soviet satellites. But we've
921
01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:22,840
also got to provide them with financial and concrete assistance to help rebuild their
922
01:20:22,920 --> 01:20:29,920
economies. Georgia in particular is now at the brink of enormous economic challenges,
923
01:20:30,480 --> 01:20:34,120
and some say that that's what Putin intended in the first place.
924
01:20:34,120 --> 01:20:37,320
The other thing we have to do, though, is we've got to see around the corners. We've
925
01:20:37,320 --> 01:20:43,720
got to anticipate some of these problems ahead of time. Back in April, I put out a
926
01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:50,460
statement saying that the situation in Georgia was unsustainable because you had Russian
927
01:20:50,460 --> 01:20:57,460
peacekeepers in these territories that were under dispute. And you knew that if the Russians
928
01:20:57,680 --> 01:21:04,640
themselves were trying to obtain some of these territories or push back against Georgia,
929
01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:10,280
that that was not a stable situation. So part of the job of the next Commander-in-Chief
930
01:21:10,280 --> 01:21:16,320
in keeping all of you safe is making sure that we can see some of the 21st century challenges
931
01:21:16,320 --> 01:21:21,920
and anticipate them before they happen. We haven't been doing enough of that. We tend
932
01:21:21,920 --> 01:21:27,180
to be reactive. That's what we've been doing over the last eight years. And that has actually
933
01:21:27,180 --> 01:21:34,180
made us more safe. That's part of what happened in Afghanistan, where we rushed into Iraq
934
01:21:34,380 --> 01:21:41,380
and sent a lot of people to the hospital. And Senator McCain and President Bush suggested
935
01:21:41,380 --> 01:21:45,980
that it wasn't that important to catch bin Laden right now and that we could muddle through.
936
01:21:45,980 --> 01:21:51,780
And that has cost us dearly. We've got to be much more strategic if we're going to be
937
01:21:51,780 --> 01:21:55,980
able to deal with all the challenges that we face out there. And one last point I want
938
01:21:55,980 --> 01:22:00,980
to make about Russia. Energy is going to be key in dealing with Russia. If we can reduce
939
01:22:00,980 --> 01:22:05,980
the amount of energy that we use to make mischief around the world, that will strengthen
940
01:22:05,980 --> 01:22:08,980
us and weaken them when it comes to issues like Georgia.
941
01:22:08,980 --> 01:22:13,980
This requires only a yes or a no. Ronald Reagan famously said that the Soviet Union was the
942
01:22:13,980 --> 01:22:18,980
evil empire. Do you think that Russia, under Vladimir Putin, is an evil empire?
943
01:22:18,980 --> 01:22:25,980
I think they've engaged in evil behavior. And I think that it is important that we understand
944
01:22:25,980 --> 01:22:30,980
that we still have nationalist impulses that I think are very dangerous.
945
01:22:30,980 --> 01:22:31,980
Senator McCain?
946
01:22:31,980 --> 01:22:32,980
Maybe.
947
01:22:32,980 --> 01:22:33,980
Maybe.
948
01:22:33,980 --> 01:22:41,980
It depends on how we respond to Russia and depends on a lot of things. If I say yes,
949
01:22:41,980 --> 01:22:47,980
then that means that we're reigniting the old Cold War. If I say no, it ignores their
950
01:22:48,980 --> 01:22:55,980
Obviously, energy is going to be a big, big factor. And Georgia and Ukraine are both major
951
01:22:55,980 --> 01:23:01,980
gateways of energy into Europe. And that's one of the reasons why it's in our interest.
952
01:23:01,980 --> 01:23:07,980
But the Russians, I think we can deal with them. But they've got to understand that they're
953
01:23:07,980 --> 01:23:13,980
facing a very firm and determined United States of America that will defend our interests
954
01:23:13,980 --> 01:23:15,980
and that of other countries in the world.
955
01:23:15,980 --> 01:23:19,980
All right. We're going to try to get in two more questions if we can. So we have to move
956
01:23:19,980 --> 01:23:24,980
along. Over in Section A, Terry Shirey. Do I have that right, Terry?
957
01:23:24,980 --> 01:23:26,980
Senator.
958
01:23:26,980 --> 01:23:34,980
As a retired Navy chief, my thoughts are often with those who serve our country. I know both
959
01:23:34,980 --> 01:23:40,980
candidates, both of you expressed support for Israel. If despite your best diplomatic
960
01:23:40,980 --> 01:23:45,980
efforts, Iran attacks Israel, would you be willing to commit U.S. troops in support and
961
01:23:45,980 --> 01:23:50,980
defense of Israel? Or would you wait on approval from the U.N. Security Council?
962
01:23:50,980 --> 01:23:57,980
Well, thank you, Terry. And thank you for your service to the country. I want to say
963
01:23:57,980 --> 01:24:01,980
everything I ever learned about leadership, I learned from a chief petty officer. And I
964
01:24:01,980 --> 01:24:07,980
thank you. And I thank you, my friend. Thanks for serving. Let me say that we obviously
965
01:24:07,980 --> 01:24:13,980
would not wait for the United Nations Security Council. I think the realities are that both
966
01:24:13,980 --> 01:24:23,980
Russia and China would probably pose significant obstacles. And our challenge right now is
967
01:24:23,980 --> 01:24:29,980
the Iranians continue on the path to acquiring nuclear weapons. And it's a great threat.
968
01:24:29,980 --> 01:24:35,980
It's not just a threat to the state of Israel. It's a threat to the stability of the entire
969
01:24:35,980 --> 01:24:40,980
Middle East. If Iran acquires nuclear weapons, all the other countries will acquire them, too.
970
01:24:40,980 --> 01:24:47,980
The tensions will be ratcheted up. What would you do if you were the Israelis and the
971
01:24:47,980 --> 01:24:53,980
president of a country says that they are determined to wipe you off the map, cause your
972
01:24:53,980 --> 01:24:58,980
country a stinking corpse? Now, Senator Obama, without precondition, wants to sit down and
973
01:24:58,980 --> 01:25:04,980
negotiate with them. Without preconditions. That's what he stated. Again, a matter of record.
974
01:25:04,980 --> 01:25:10,980
I want to make sure that the Iranians are put enough, that we put enough pressure on the
975
01:25:10,980 --> 01:25:16,980
Iranians by joining with our allies, imposing significant, tough sanctions to modify their
976
01:25:16,980 --> 01:25:22,980
behavior. And I think we can do that. I think joining with our allies and friends in a league
977
01:25:22,980 --> 01:25:29,980
of democracies, that we can effectively abridge their behavior and hopefully they would
978
01:25:29,980 --> 01:25:34,980
be more independent, this quest that they are on for nuclear weapons. But at the end of the
979
01:25:34,980 --> 01:25:40,980
day, my friend, I have to tell you again, and you know what it's like to serve, and you
980
01:25:40,980 --> 01:25:46,980
know what it's like to sacrifice, but we can never allow a second Holocaust to take place.
981
01:25:46,980 --> 01:25:48,980
Senator Obama.
982
01:25:48,980 --> 01:25:55,980
Well, Terry, first of all, we honor your service and we're grateful for it. We cannot allow
983
01:25:55,980 --> 01:26:01,980
a second Holocaust to be perpetrated by a second-hand, second-hand nuclear weapon. It would be a
984
01:26:01,980 --> 01:26:08,980
game changer in the region. Not only would it threaten Israel, our strongest ally in the
985
01:26:08,980 --> 01:26:15,980
region and one of our strongest allies in the world, but it would also create a possibility
986
01:26:15,980 --> 01:26:20,980
of nuclear weapons falling into the hands of terrorists. So it's unacceptable. And I will do
987
01:26:20,980 --> 01:26:26,980
my best to make sure that we will never take military options off the table, and it is
988
01:26:26,980 --> 01:26:32,980
important that we don't provide veto power to the United Nations or anyone else in acting
989
01:26:32,980 --> 01:26:40,980
in our interests. It is important, though, for us to use all the tools at our disposal
990
01:26:40,980 --> 01:26:45,980
to prevent the scenario where we've got to make those kinds of choices. And that's why
991
01:26:45,980 --> 01:26:52,980
I'm here. If we can work more effectively with other countries, diplomatically, to tighten
992
01:26:52,980 --> 01:26:58,980
sanctions on Iran, if we can reduce our energy consumption through alternative energy so
993
01:26:58,980 --> 01:27:03,980
that Iran has less money, if we can impose the kinds of sanctions that, say, for example,
994
01:27:03,980 --> 01:27:09,980
Iran right now imports gasoline even though it's an oil producer because its oil infrastructure
995
01:27:09,980 --> 01:27:14,980
has broken down, if we can prevent them from importing the gasoline that they need and
996
01:27:14,980 --> 01:27:19,980
the refined petroleum products, that starts changing their cost-benefit analysis. That
997
01:27:19,980 --> 01:27:24,980
starts putting the squeeze on them. Now, it is true, though, that I believe that we should
998
01:27:24,980 --> 01:27:30,980
have direct talks not just with our friends but also with our enemies to deliver a tough,
999
01:27:30,980 --> 01:27:37,980
direct message to Iran that if you don't change your behavior, then there will be dire consequences.
1000
01:27:38,980 --> 01:27:44,980
If you do change your behavior, then it is possible for you to rejoin the community of
1001
01:27:44,980 --> 01:27:49,980
nations. Now, it may not work, but one of the things we've learned is, is that when
1002
01:27:49,980 --> 01:27:55,980
we take that approach, whether it's in North Korea or in Iran, then we have a better chance
1003
01:27:55,980 --> 01:27:59,980
at better outcomes. When President Bush decided we're not going to talk to Iran, we're not
1004
01:27:59,980 --> 01:28:04,980
going to talk to North Korea, you know what happened? Iran went from zero centrifuges
1005
01:28:04,980 --> 01:28:11,980
to develop nuclear weapons to 4,000. North Korea quadrupled its nuclear capability. We've
1006
01:28:11,980 --> 01:28:16,980
got to try to have talks, understanding that we're not taking military options off the
1007
01:28:16,980 --> 01:28:17,980
table.
1008
01:28:17,980 --> 01:28:20,980
MR. ROMNEY. All right, gentlemen, we've come to the last question, and you'll both be interested
1009
01:28:20,980 --> 01:28:23,980
to know. This comes from the Internet, and it's from a state that you're strongly contesting,
1010
01:28:23,980 --> 01:28:29,980
both of you. It's from Peggy in Amherst, New Hampshire. It has a certain Zen-like quality.
1011
01:28:29,980 --> 01:28:36,980
I'll give you a fair warning. She says, what don't you know, and how will you learn it?
1012
01:28:36,980 --> 01:28:39,980
Senator Obama, you get first crack at that.
1013
01:28:39,980 --> 01:28:45,980
THE PRESIDENT. My wife, Michelle, is there, and she could give you a much longer list
1014
01:28:45,980 --> 01:28:52,980
than I do. And most of the time I learn it by asking her. But, look, the nature of the
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challenges that we're going to face are immense. And one of the things that we know about the
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presidency is that it's never the challenges that you expect, it's the challenges that
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you don't, that end up consuming most of your time. But here's what I do know. I know that
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I wouldn't be standing here if it weren't for the fact that this country gave me opportunity.
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I came from very modest means. I had a single mom, and my grandparents raised me, and it
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was because of the help of scholarships and my grandmother's scrimping on things that
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she might have wanted to purchase, and my mom at one point getting food stamps in order
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for us to put food on the table. Despite all that, I was able to go to the best schools
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on Earth. I was able to succeed in a way that I could not have succeeded anywhere else in
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this country. The same is true for Michelle, and I'm sure the same is true for a lot of
1025
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people. And the question in this election is, are we going to pass on that same American
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dream to the next generation? Over the last eight years, we've seen that dream diminish.
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Wages and incomes have gone down. People have lost their health care or are going bankrupt
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because they get sick. We've got young people who've got the grades and the will and the
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drive to go to college, but they just don't have the money. And we can't expect that if
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we do the same things that we've been doing over the last eight years, that somehow we
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are going to have a different outcome. We need fundamental change. That's what's at
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stake in this election. That's the reason I decided to run for President. And I'm hopeful
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that all of you are prepared to continue this extraordinary journey that we call America.
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But we're going to have to have the courage and the sacrifice, the nerve to move in a
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new direction. Thank you.
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Senator McCain, you get the last word. Senator Obama had the opening. Your last thought.
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Well, thank you, Tom. And I think what I don't know is what all of us don't know. And that's
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what's going to happen both here at home and abroad. The challenges that we face are
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unprecedented. Americans are hurting tonight in a way they have not in our generation.
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There are challenges around the world that are new and different. And there will be different.
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We will be talking about countries sometime in the future that we hardly know where they
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are on the map, some Americans. So what I don't know is what the unexpected will be.
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But I have spent my whole life serving this country. I grew up in a family where my father
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was gone most of the time because he was at sea and doing our country's business. My mother
1045
01:31:44,980 --> 01:31:51,980
basically raised our family. I know what it's like in dark times. I know what it's like
1046
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to have to fight to keep one's hope going through difficult times. I know what it's
1047
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like to rely on others for support and courage and love in tough times. I know what it's
1048
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like to have your comrades reach out to you and your neighbors and your fellow citizens
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and pick you up and put you back in the fight. That's what America is all about. I believe
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in this country. I believe in its future. I believe in its greatness. It's been my great
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honor to serve it for many, many years. And I'm asking the American people to give me
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another opportunity. And I'll rest on my record, but I'll also tell you, times are tough.
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We need a steady hand at the tiller. And the great honor of my life was to always put my
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country first. Thank you, Tom.
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Thank you very much, Senator McCain.
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That concludes tonight's debate from here in Nashville. We want to thank our hosts
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here at Belmont University in Nashville and the Commission on Presidential Debates.
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And you're in my way of my script there if you will move.
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In addition to everything else, there is one more presidential debate on Wednesday,
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October 15th at Hofstra University in New York, moderated by my friend Bob Schieffer
1061
01:33:09,980 --> 01:33:14,980
of CBS News. Thank you, Senator McCain. Thank you, Senator Obama. Good night, everyone,
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from Nashville.
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Thank you.
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