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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:14,160 Good evening from Belmont University in Nashville, Tennessee. I'm Tom Brokaw of NBC News and 2 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:18,200 welcome to the second presidential debate sponsored by the Commission on Presidential 3 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:24,720 Debates. Tonight's debate is the only one with a town hall format. The Gallup organization 4 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:30,200 chose 80 uncommitted voters from the Nashville area to be here with us tonight. And earlier 5 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:35,600 today each of them gave me a copy of their question for the candidates. From all of these 6 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:41,840 questions and from tens of thousands submitted online, I have selected a long list of excellent 7 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:46,680 questions on domestic and foreign policy. Neither the Commission nor the candidates 8 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:51,320 have seen the questions and although we won't be able to get to all of them tonight, we 9 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:57,360 should have a wide ranging discussion one month before the election. Each candidate 10 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:02,640 will have two minutes to respond to a common question and there will be a one minute follow 11 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:08,160 up. The audience here in the hall has agreed to be polite and attentive, no cheering or 12 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:14,880 outbursts. Those of you at home of course are not so constrained. The only exception 13 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:20,600 in the hall is right now as it is my privilege to introduce the candidates, Senator Barack 14 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:27,600 Obama of Illinois and Senator John McCain of Arizona. Gentlemen. 15 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:34,600 We want to get underway immediately if we can. Since you left, I'm going to ask you 16 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,040 a question. You and I last met at Ole Miss 12 days ago. The world has changed a great 17 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:05,880 deal and not for the better. We still don't know where the bottom is at this time. As 18 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:09,520 you might expect, many of the questions that we have from here in the hall tonight and 19 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:15,440 from online have to do with the American economy and in fact with global economic conditions. 20 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:20,160 I understand that you flipped a coin and Senator Obama, you'll begin tonight. And we're going 21 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:25,520 to have our first question from over here in Section A from Alan Schaefer. Alan? 22 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:34,080 With the economy on the downturn and retired and older citizens and workers losing their 23 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:40,200 incomes, what's the fastest, most positive solution to bail these people out of the economic 24 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:41,200 ruin? 25 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,440 THE PRESIDENT. Well, Alan, thank you very much for the question. I want to first obviously 26 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:50,520 thank Belmont University. Tom, thank you. And to all of you who are participating tonight 27 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:55,560 and those of you who sent email questions in, I think everybody knows now we are in 28 00:02:55,560 --> 00:03:01,800 the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. And a lot of you, I think, are 29 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:07,600 worried about your jobs, your pensions, your retirement accounts, your ability to send 30 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:14,520 your child or your grandchild to college. And I believe this is a final verdict on the 31 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:19,960 failed economic policies of the last eight years, strongly promoted by President Bush 32 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:26,240 and supported by Senator McCain, that essentially said that we should strip away regulations, 33 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:31,800 consumer protections, let the market run wild, and prosperity would rain down on all of us. 34 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:37,320 It hasn't worked out that way. And so now we've got to take some decisive action. Now, 35 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:43,440 step one was a rescue package that was passed last week. We've got to make sure that works 36 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:49,280 properly. And that means strong oversight, making sure that investors, taxpayers are 37 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:54,080 getting their money back and treated as investors. It means that we are cracking down on CEOs 38 00:03:54,080 --> 00:04:00,000 and making sure that they're not getting bonuses or golden parachutes as a consequence of this 39 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:04,520 package. And, in fact, we just found out that AIG, a company that got a bailout, just a 40 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:10,080 week after they got help went on a $400,000 junket. And I tell you what, the Treasury 41 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:16,040 should demand that money back and those executives should be fired. But that's only step one. 42 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:21,480 The middle class need a rescue package. And that means tax cuts for the middle class. 43 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:26,160 It means help for homeowners so that they can stay in their homes. It means that we 44 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:30,320 are helping state and local governments set up road projects and bridge projects that 45 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:35,080 keep people in their jobs. And then long term, we've got to fix our health care system, we've 46 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:39,960 got to fix our energy system that is putting such an enormous burden on families. You need 47 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,160 somebody working for you and you've got to have somebody in Washington who's thinking 48 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,520 about the middle class and not just those who can afford to hire lobbyists. 49 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,120 Mr. Earnest Senator McCain? 50 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:53,680 Senator McCain Well, thank you, Tom. Thank you, Belmont University. And, Senator Obama, 51 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:59,720 it's good to be with you at a town hall meeting. And, Alan, thank you for your question. You 52 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:06,720 go to the heart of America's worries tonight. Americans are angry, they're upset, and they're 53 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:13,800 a little fearful. It's our job to fix the problem. I have a plan to fix this problem. 54 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:18,520 And it's got to do with energy independence. We've got to stop sending $700 billion a year 55 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:23,760 to countries that don't like us very much. We have to keep Americans' taxes low, all 56 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:29,840 Americans' taxes low. Let's not raise taxes on anybody today. We obviously have to stop 57 00:05:29,840 --> 00:05:34,280 the spending spree that's going on in Washington. Do you know that we've laid a $10 trillion 58 00:05:34,280 --> 00:05:39,520 debt on these young Americans who are here with us tonight? $500 billion of it we owe 59 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:46,120 to China. We've got to have a package of reforms, and it's got to lead to reform, prosperity, 60 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:52,600 and peace in the world. And I think that this problem has become so severe, as you know, 61 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:57,240 that we're going to have to do something about home values. You know that home values of 62 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:03,520 retirees continues to decline, and people are no longer able to afford their mortgage 63 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:09,080 payments. As President of the United States, Alan, I would order the Secretary of the Treasury 64 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:15,800 to immediately buy up the bad home loan mortgages in America and renegotiate at the new value 65 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:20,200 of those homes, at the diminished value of those homes, and let people make those be 66 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:26,120 able to make those payments and stay in their homes. Is it expensive? Yes. But we all know, 67 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:32,000 my friends, until we stabilize home values in America, we're never going to start turning 68 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:37,880 around and creating jobs and fixing our economy. And we've got to give some trust and confidence 69 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:43,640 back to America. I know how to do that, my friends. And it's my proposal. It's not Senator 70 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:48,200 Obama's proposal. It's not President Bush's proposal. But I know how to get America working 71 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:52,280 again, restore our economy, and take care of working Americans. Thank you. 72 00:06:52,280 --> 00:06:52,880 SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL 73 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,440 Senator, we have one minute for a discussion here. Obviously, the powers of the Treasury 74 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:00,800 Secretary have been greatly expanded. The most powerful officer in the Cabinet now, 75 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,560 Hank Paulson, says he won't stay on. Who do you have in mind to appoint to that very 76 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,680 important post? Senator McCain? 77 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:09,400 SEN. JOHN MCCAIN 78 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,400 Not you, Tom. 79 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:13,960 SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL 80 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:14,960 With good reason. 81 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,480 SEN. JOHN MCCAIN 82 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:22,360 You know, that's a tough question. And there's a lot of qualified Americans. But I think 83 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:27,520 the first criteria, Tom, would have to be somebody who immediately Americans identify 84 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:33,880 with, immediately say, we can trust that individual. Supporter of Senator Obama's is Warren Buffett. 85 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:38,480 He's already weighed in and helped stabilize some of the difficulties in the markets and 86 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:44,440 with companies and corporations, institutions today. I like Meg Whitman. She knows what 87 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:49,800 it's like to be out there in the marketplace. She knows how to create jobs. Meg Whitman 88 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:56,800 was the CEO of a company that started with 12 people and is now 1.3 million people in 89 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:01,400 America make their living off eBay. Maybe somebody here has done a little business with 90 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:07,080 him. But the point is, it's going to have to be somebody who inspires trust and confidence. 91 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:13,000 Because the problem in America today, to a large extent, Tom, is that we don't have trust 92 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,720 and confidence in our institutions because of the corruption on Wall Street and the greed 93 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,840 and excess and the cronyism in Washington, D.C. 94 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:21,840 SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL 95 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,440 All right. Senator McCain, Senator Obama, who do you have in mind for Treasury Secretary? 96 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,440 THE PRESIDENT Well, Warren would be a pretty good choice, 97 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:33,600 Warren Buffett, and I'm pleased to have his support. But there are other folks out there. 98 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:39,920 The key is making sure that the next Treasury Secretary understands that it's not enough 99 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:44,920 just to help those at the top. Prosperity is not just going to trickle down. We've got 100 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:50,720 to help the middle class. And we've โ€“ Senator McCain and I have some fundamental disagreements 101 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:55,680 on the economy, starting with Senator McCain's statement earlier that he thought the fundamentals 102 00:08:55,680 --> 00:09:02,000 of the economy were sound. Part of the problem here is that, for many of you, wages and incomes 103 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:08,320 have flatlined. For many of you, it is getting harder and harder to save, harder and harder 104 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:13,720 to retire. And that's why, for example, on tax policy, what I want to do is provide a 105 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:20,020 middle-class tax cut to 95 percent of working Americans, those who are working two jobs, 106 00:09:20,020 --> 00:09:23,860 people who are not spending enough time with their kids because they are struggling to 107 00:09:23,860 --> 00:09:29,980 make ends meet. Senator McCain is right that we've got to stabilize housing prices. But 108 00:09:29,980 --> 00:09:34,580 underlying that is loss of jobs and loss of income. That's something that the next Treasury 109 00:09:34,580 --> 00:09:35,580 Secretary is going to have to work on. 110 00:09:35,580 --> 00:09:37,380 MR. ROMNEY. Senator Obama, thank you very much. May I 111 00:09:37,380 --> 00:09:41,620 remind both of you, if I can, that we're operating under rules that you signed off on, and when 112 00:09:41,620 --> 00:09:46,300 we have a discussion, it really is to be confined within about a minute or so. We're going to 113 00:09:46,300 --> 00:09:51,420 go now, Senator McCain, to the next question for you from the hall here. And it comes from 114 00:09:51,420 --> 00:09:54,780 Oliver Clark, who is over here in Section F. Oliver? 115 00:09:54,780 --> 00:10:00,780 MR. CLARK. Well, Senators, through this economic crisis, most of the people I know have had 116 00:10:00,780 --> 00:10:06,780 a difficult time. And through this bailout package, I was wondering what it is that's 117 00:10:06,780 --> 00:10:08,260 going to actually help those people out. 118 00:10:08,260 --> 00:10:12,900 SEN. JOHN BARRASSO. Well, thank you, Oliver. And that's an excellent question because, 119 00:10:12,940 --> 00:10:19,700 as you just described it, bailout, when I believe that it's rescue, because of the greed 120 00:10:19,700 --> 00:10:26,380 and excess in Washington and Wall Street, Main Street was paying a very heavy price. 121 00:10:26,380 --> 00:10:32,900 And we know that. I left my campaign and suspended it to go back to Washington to make sure that 122 00:10:32,900 --> 00:10:37,100 there were additional protections for the taxpayer, the form of good oversight and the 123 00:10:37,100 --> 00:10:42,220 form of taxpayers being the first to be paid back when our economy recovers. And it will 124 00:10:42,220 --> 00:10:45,700 recover and a number of other measures. 125 00:10:45,700 --> 00:10:52,660 But, you know, one of the real catalysts, really the match that lit this fire, was Fannie 126 00:10:52,660 --> 00:10:56,500 Mae and Freddie Mac. I'll bet you you may never even have heard of them before this 127 00:10:56,500 --> 00:11:02,860 crisis. But, you know, they're the ones that, with the encouragement of Senator Obama and 128 00:11:02,860 --> 00:11:07,860 his cronies and his friends in Washington, that went out and made all these risky loans, 129 00:11:07,860 --> 00:11:12,780 gave them to people that couldn't never afford to pay back. And, you know, there were some 130 00:11:12,780 --> 00:11:18,580 of us that stood up two years ago and said, we've got to enact legislation to fix this. 131 00:11:18,580 --> 00:11:26,660 We've got to stop this greed and excess. Meanwhile, the Democrats in the Senate and some members 132 00:11:26,660 --> 00:11:33,620 of Congress defended what Fannie and Freddie were doing. They resisted any change. Meanwhile, 133 00:11:33,620 --> 00:11:37,300 they were getting all kinds of money in campaign contributions. 134 00:11:37,420 --> 00:11:43,580 Senator Obama was the second highest recipient of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac money in history. 135 00:11:43,580 --> 00:11:50,420 In history. So this rescue package means that we will stabilize markets. We will buy, we 136 00:11:50,420 --> 00:11:54,900 will shore up these institutions. But it's not enough. That's why we're going to have 137 00:11:54,900 --> 00:11:59,500 to go out into the housing market and we're going to have to buy up these bad loans. And 138 00:11:59,500 --> 00:12:05,180 we're going to have to stabilize house, home values. And that way Americans can, like Alan, 139 00:12:05,180 --> 00:12:10,620 can realize the American dream and stay in their home. But Fannie and Freddie were the 140 00:12:10,620 --> 00:12:15,780 catalyst, the match that started this forest fire. There were some of us, there were some 141 00:12:15,780 --> 00:12:19,340 of us that stood up against it. There was others who took a hike. 142 00:12:19,340 --> 00:12:21,900 Senator Obama. 143 00:12:21,900 --> 00:12:27,900 Well, Oliver, first let me tell you what's in the rescue package for you. Right now, 144 00:12:27,900 --> 00:12:33,580 the credit markets are frozen up. And what that means as a practical matter is that small 145 00:12:33,620 --> 00:12:38,380 businesses and some large businesses just can't get loans. If they can't get a loan, 146 00:12:38,380 --> 00:12:43,140 that means that they can't make payroll. If they can't make payroll, then they may end 147 00:12:43,140 --> 00:12:49,220 up having to shut their doors and lay people off. And if you imagine just one company trying 148 00:12:49,220 --> 00:12:54,340 to deal with that, now imagine a million companies all across the country. So it could end up 149 00:12:54,340 --> 00:13:01,060 having an adverse effect on everybody. And that's why we had to take action. But we shouldn't 150 00:13:01,060 --> 00:13:02,060 have been there in the first place. 151 00:13:02,060 --> 00:13:08,140 Now, I've got to correct a little bit of Senator McCain's history, not surprisingly. Let's 152 00:13:08,140 --> 00:13:14,620 first of all understand that the biggest problem in this whole process was the deregulation 153 00:13:14,620 --> 00:13:21,020 of the financial system. Senator McCain as recently as March bragged about the fact that 154 00:13:21,020 --> 00:13:26,340 he is a deregulator. On the other hand, two years ago, I said that we've got a subprime 155 00:13:26,340 --> 00:13:34,660 lending crisis that has to be dealt with. I wrote to Secretary Paulson. I wrote to Federal 156 00:13:34,660 --> 00:13:39,260 Reserve Chairman Bernanke and told them this is something we have to deal with and nobody 157 00:13:39,260 --> 00:13:44,300 did anything about it. A year ago, I went to Wall Street and said we've got to re-regulate, 158 00:13:44,300 --> 00:13:50,460 and nothing happened. And Senator McCain during that period said that we should keep on deregulating 159 00:13:50,460 --> 00:13:56,500 because that's how the free enterprise system works. Now, with respect to Fannie Mae, what 160 00:13:56,500 --> 00:14:01,980 Senator McCain didn't mention is the fact that this bill that he talked about wasn't 161 00:14:01,980 --> 00:14:07,020 his own bill. He jumped on it a year after it had been introduced and it never got passed. 162 00:14:07,020 --> 00:14:13,180 And I never promoted Fannie Mae. In fact, Senator McCain's campaign chairman's firm 163 00:14:13,180 --> 00:14:18,820 was a lobbyist on behalf of Fannie Mae, not me. So โ€“ but look, you're not interested 164 00:14:18,820 --> 00:14:22,300 in hearing politicians' pointy fingers. What you're interested in is trying to figure 165 00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:28,180 out how is this going to impact you. This is not the end of the process. This is the 166 00:14:28,180 --> 00:14:32,980 beginning of the process. And that's why it's going to be so important for us to work with 167 00:14:32,980 --> 00:14:37,020 homeowners to make sure that they can stay in their homes. The Secretary already has 168 00:14:37,020 --> 00:14:42,180 the power to do that in the rescue package, but it hasn't been exercised yet. And the 169 00:14:42,180 --> 00:14:46,180 next President has to make sure that the next Treasury Secretary is thinking about how to 170 00:14:46,180 --> 00:14:52,260 strengthen you as a homebuyer, you as a homeowner, and not simply think about bailing out banks 171 00:14:52,260 --> 00:14:53,260 on Wall Street. 172 00:14:53,260 --> 00:14:56,700 Senator Obama, time for discussion. I'm going to begin with you. Are you saying to Mr. Clark 173 00:14:56,700 --> 00:15:00,020 and to the other members of the American television audience that the American economy is going 174 00:15:00,020 --> 00:15:03,620 to get much worse before it gets better and they ought to be prepared for that? 175 00:15:03,620 --> 00:15:10,860 No. I am confident about the American economy. But we are going to have to have some leadership 176 00:15:10,860 --> 00:15:16,860 from Washington that not only sets out much better regulations for the financial system 177 00:15:16,860 --> 00:15:23,500 โ€“ the problem is we still have an archaic 20th century regulatory system for 21st century 178 00:15:23,500 --> 00:15:27,220 financial markets โ€“ we're going to have to coordinate with other countries to make 179 00:15:27,220 --> 00:15:32,140 sure that whatever actions we take work. But most importantly, we're going to have to help 180 00:15:32,140 --> 00:15:37,940 ordinary families be able to stay in their homes, make sure that they can pay their bills, 181 00:15:37,940 --> 00:15:42,260 deal with critical issues like health care and energy, and we're going to have to change 182 00:15:42,260 --> 00:15:46,580 the culture in Washington so that lobbyists and special interests aren't driving the process 183 00:15:46,580 --> 00:15:47,860 and your voices aren't being drowned out. 184 00:15:47,860 --> 00:15:50,540 Senator McCain, in all candor, do you think the economy is going to get worse before it 185 00:15:50,540 --> 00:15:51,980 gets better? 186 00:15:51,980 --> 00:15:57,420 I think it depends on what we do. I think if we act effectively, if we stabilize the 187 00:15:57,420 --> 00:16:01,900 housing market, which I believe we can if we go out and buy up these bad loans so that 188 00:16:01,900 --> 00:16:07,380 people can have a new mortgage at the new value of their home. I think if we get rid 189 00:16:07,380 --> 00:16:13,140 of the cronyism and special interest influence in Washington so we can act more effectively. 190 00:16:13,140 --> 00:16:17,860 My friend, I'd like you to see the letter that a group of senators and I wrote warning 191 00:16:17,860 --> 00:16:24,340 exactly of this crisis. Senator Obama's name was not on that letter. The point is, the 192 00:16:24,340 --> 00:16:30,300 point is that we can fix our economy. Americans, workers are the best in the world. They are 193 00:16:30,300 --> 00:16:35,460 the fundamental aspect of America's economy. They're the most innovative, they're the best 194 00:16:36,460 --> 00:16:41,220 at best, we're the best exporters, we're the best importers, they're most effective, they 195 00:16:41,220 --> 00:16:46,060 are the best workers in the world. And we've got to give them a chance. We've got to give 196 00:16:46,060 --> 00:16:51,540 them a chance to do their best again. And they are the innocent bystanders here in what 197 00:16:51,540 --> 00:16:56,260 is the biggest financial crisis and challenge of our time. We can do it. 198 00:16:56,260 --> 00:17:01,060 Thank you, Senator McCain. We're going to continue over in Section F, as it turns out. 199 00:17:01,060 --> 00:17:05,140 Senator Obama, this is a question from you, from Theresa Finch. Theresa? 200 00:17:05,140 --> 00:17:12,140 How can we trust either of you with our money when both parties got us into this global 201 00:17:19,100 --> 00:17:20,700 economic crisis? 202 00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:27,700 Well, look, I understand your frustration and your cynicism, because while you've been 203 00:17:28,700 --> 00:17:35,700 carrying out your responsibilities, most of the people here, you've got a family budget. 204 00:17:35,700 --> 00:17:41,100 If less money is coming in, you end up making cuts. Maybe you don't go out to dinner as 205 00:17:41,100 --> 00:17:47,860 much. Maybe you put off buying a new car. That's not what happens in Washington. And 206 00:17:47,860 --> 00:17:52,700 you're right, there's a lot of blame to go around. But I think it's important just to 207 00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:59,700 remember a little bit of history. When George Bush came into office, we had surpluses. And 208 00:18:00,860 --> 00:18:06,620 now we have a half-a-trillion-dollar deficit annually. When George Bush came into office, 209 00:18:06,620 --> 00:18:13,620 our debt, national debt, was around $5 trillion. It's now over $10 trillion. We've almost doubled 210 00:18:13,620 --> 00:18:14,740 it. 211 00:18:14,740 --> 00:18:21,100 And so while it's true that nobody is completely innocent here, we have had over the last eight 212 00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:28,100 years the biggest increases in deficit spending and national debt in our history. And Senator 213 00:18:28,620 --> 00:18:32,820 McCain voted for four out of five of those George Bush budgets. 214 00:18:32,820 --> 00:18:38,980 So here's what I would do. I'm going to spend some money on the key issues that we've got 215 00:18:38,980 --> 00:18:43,860 to work on. You may have seen your health care premiums go up. We've got to reform health 216 00:18:43,860 --> 00:18:48,540 care to help you and your budget. We are going to have to deal with energy, because we can't 217 00:18:48,540 --> 00:18:53,980 keep on borrowing from the Chinese and sending money to Saudi Arabia. We are mortgaging our 218 00:18:53,980 --> 00:18:58,060 children's future. We've got to have a different energy plan. We've got to invest in college 219 00:18:58,060 --> 00:19:01,660 affordability. So we're going to have to make some investments, but we've also got to make 220 00:19:01,660 --> 00:19:02,820 spending cuts. 221 00:19:02,820 --> 00:19:05,980 And what I've proposed you'll hear Senator McCain say, well, he's proposing a whole bunch 222 00:19:05,980 --> 00:19:11,020 of new spending. But actually I am cutting more than I'm spending so that it will be 223 00:19:11,020 --> 00:19:15,840 a net spending cut. The key is whether or not we've got priorities that are working 224 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:21,440 for you as opposed to those who have been dictating policy in Washington lately, and 225 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,160 that's mostly lobbyists and special interests. We've got to put an end to that. 226 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:26,160 Senator McCain. 227 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:34,360 Well, Teresa, thank you. And I can see why you feel that cynicism and mistrust, because 228 00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:41,760 the system in Washington is broken. And I have been a consistent reformer. I have advocated 229 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:47,360 and taken on the special interests, whether they be the big money people by reaching across 230 00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:53,200 the aisle and working with Senator Feingold on campaign finance reform, whether it being 231 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:58,760 a variety of other issues, working with Senator Lieberman on trying to address climate change. 232 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:05,160 I have a clear record of bipartisanship. The situation today cries out for bipartisanship. 233 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:10,960 Senator Obama has never taken on his leaders of his party on a single issue. And we need 234 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:17,080 to reform. And so let's look at our records as well as our rhetoric. That's really part 235 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:23,680 of your mistrust here. And now I suggest that maybe you go to some of these organizations 236 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:28,560 that are the watchdogs of what we do, like the Citizens Against Government Waste or the 237 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:33,880 National Taxpayers Union or these other organizations that watch us all the time. I don't expect 238 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:35,800 you to watch every vote. 239 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,960 And you know what you'll find? This is the most liberal big spending record in the United 240 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:46,080 States Senate. I have fought against excessive spending and outrageous. I have fought to 241 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:50,600 reduce the earmarks and eliminate them. Do you know that Senator Obama has voted for 242 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:58,440 or is proposing $860 billion of new spending now? New spending? Do you know that he voted 243 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:03,720 for every for every increase in spending that I saw come across the floor of the United 244 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:09,920 States Senate while we were working to eliminate these pork barrel earmarks? He voted for 245 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:16,400 nearly a billion dollars in pork barrel earmark projects, including, by the way, $3 million 246 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:22,800 for an overhead projector at a planetarium in Chicago, Illinois. My friends, do we need 247 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:27,240 to spend that kind of money? I think you have to look at my record and you have to look 248 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:35,360 at his. Then you have to look at our proposals for our economy. Not $860 billion in new spending, 249 00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:40,520 but for the kinds of reforms that keep people in their jobs, get middle-income Americans 250 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:45,820 working again and getting our economy moving again. You're going to be examining our proposals 251 00:21:45,820 --> 00:21:52,520 tonight and in the future. And energy independence is a way to do that, is one of them. And drilling 252 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:58,240 offshore and nuclear power are two vital elements of that. And I've been supporting those. And 253 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:03,600 I know how to fix this economy and eliminate our dependence on foreign oil and stop sending 254 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,200 $700 billion a year over seats. 255 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,320 Well, we've run out of time. We have this one-minute discussion period going on here. 256 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,920 There are new economic realities out there that everyone in this hall and across this 257 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:18,800 country understands that there are going to have to be some choices made. Health policies, 258 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:25,040 energy policies, and entitlement reform, what are going to be your priorities in what order? 259 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:30,440 Which of those will be your highest priority your first year in office and which will follow 260 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,600 in sequence? Senator McCain. 261 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:33,880 The three priorities were health. 262 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:40,680 The three, health, health care, energy, and entitlement reform, Social Security and Medicare. 263 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,680 In what order would you put them in terms of priorities? 264 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:51,440 I think you can work on all three at once, Tom. I think it's very important that we reform 265 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:57,840 our entitlement programs. My friends, we are not going to be able to provide the same benefit 266 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:04,400 for present-day workers that we are going, that present-day retirees have today. We're 267 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:09,680 going to have to sit down across the table, Republican and Democrat, as he did in 1983 268 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:14,600 between Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill. I know how to do that. I have a clear record of reaching 269 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:21,280 across the aisle, whether it be Joe Lieberman or Russ Feingold or Ted Kennedy or others. 270 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:27,760 That's my clear record. We can work on nuclear power plants, build a whole bunch of them, 271 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:35,040 create millions of new jobs. We have to have all of the above, alternative fuels, wind, 272 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:41,480 tide, solar, natural gas, clean coal technology. All of these things we can do as Americans. 273 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:46,240 And we can take on this mission. And we can overcome it. My friends, some of this $700 274 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,360 billion ends up in the hands of terrorist organizations. 275 00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:56,320 As far as health care is concerned, obviously everyone is struggling to make sure that they 276 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,960 can afford their premiums and that they can have affordable and available health care. 277 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:05,120 That's the next issue. But we can do them all at once. There's no โ€“ and we have to 278 00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:09,560 do them all at once. All three you mentioned are compelling national security requirements. 279 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,280 I'm trying to play by the rules that you all established. One minute for discussion. 280 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:18,360 Senator Obama, if you would, give us your list of priorities. There are some real questions 281 00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:21,040 about whether everything can be done at once. 282 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:25,560 We're going to have to prioritize, just like a family has to prioritize. Now, I've listed 283 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:30,480 the things that I think have to be at the top of the list. Energy we have to deal with 284 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:38,400 today, because you're paying $3.80 here in Nashville for gasoline, and it could go up. 285 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,640 And it's a strain on your family budget, but it's also bad for our national security, because 286 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:50,800 countries like Russia and Venezuela and, in some cases, countries like Iran are benefiting 287 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:55,040 from higher oil prices. So we've got to deal with that right away. That's why I've called 288 00:24:55,040 --> 00:25:01,040 for an investment of $15 billion a year over 10 years. Our goal should be, in 10 years' 289 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:06,160 time, we are free of dependence on Middle Eastern oil. And we can do it. 290 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,480 Now, when JFK said we're going to the moon in 10 years, nobody was sure how to do it, 291 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:16,640 but we understood that if the American people make a decision to do something, it gets done. 292 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:21,960 So that would be priority number one. Health care is priority number two, because that 293 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:26,640 broken health care system is bad not only for families, but it's making our businesses 294 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:31,400 less competitive. And number three, we've got to deal with education so that our young 295 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,160 people are competitive in a global economy. 296 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:39,040 But just one point I want to make, Tom. Senator McCain mentioned looking at our records. We 297 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,760 do need to look at our records. Senator McCain likes to talk about earmarks a lot. And that's 298 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:50,240 important. I want to go line by line through every item in the federal budget and eliminate 299 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:56,400 programs that don't work and make sure that those that do work, work better and cheaper. 300 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:01,360 But understand this. We also have to look at where some of our tax revenues are going. 301 00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:08,960 So when Senator McCain proposes a $300 billion tax cut, a continuation not only of the Bush 302 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:16,360 tax cuts but an additional $200 billion that he's going to give to big corporations, including 303 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:21,800 big oil companies, $4 billion worth, that's money out of the system. And so we've got 304 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:26,320 to prioritize both our spending side and our tax policies to make sure that they're working 305 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,440 for you. That's what I'm going to do as president of the United States. 306 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,600 All right, gentlemen, I want to just remind you one more time about time. We're going 307 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,560 to have a larger deficit than the federal government does if we don't get this under 308 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,880 control here before too long. 309 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,240 Senator McCain, for you, we have our first question from the Internet tonight. A child 310 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:46,240 of the Depression, 78-year-old Fiora from Chicago. Since World War II, we have never 311 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:51,080 been asked to sacrifice anything to help our country except the blood of our heroic men 312 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:57,560 and women as president. What sacrifices, sacrifices will you ask every American to make to help 313 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,640 restore the American dream and to get out of the economic morass that we're now in? 314 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:08,560 Well, Fiora, I'm going to ask the American people to understand that there are some programs 315 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:14,880 that we may have to eliminate. I first proposed a long time ago that we would have to examine 316 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,700 every agency and every bureaucracy of government. And we're going to have to eliminate those 317 00:27:19,700 --> 00:27:23,900 that aren't working. I know a lot of them that aren't working. One of them is in defense 318 00:27:23,900 --> 00:27:29,560 spending, because I've taken on some of the defense contractors. I saved the taxpayers 319 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:37,840 $6.8 billion in a deal for an Air Force tanker that was done in a corrupt fashion. I believe 320 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:44,160 that we have to eliminate the earmarks. And sometimes those projects, not the overhead 321 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:49,520 projector that Senator Obama asked for, but some of them that are really good projects, 322 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:55,680 will have to be eliminated as well. And they'll have to undergo the same scrutiny that all 323 00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:02,000 projects should in competition with others. So we're going to have to tell the American 324 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:07,400 people that spending is going to have to be cut in America. And I recommend a spending 325 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:13,600 freeze that, except for defense, veterans affairs, and some other vital programs, we'll 326 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:18,680 just have to have across the board freeze. And some of those programs may not grow as 327 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:24,920 much as we would like for them to. But we can establish priorities with full transparency, 328 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:30,280 with full knowledge of the American people, and full consultation, not done behind closed 329 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,760 doors and shoving earmarks in the middle of the night into programs that we don't even 330 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,640 sometimes we don't even know about until months later. And by the way, I want to go 331 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:44,880 back a second. Look, we can attack health care and energy at the same time. We're not 332 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:50,120 rifle shots here. We are Americans. We can, with the participation of all Americans, work 333 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:55,440 together and solve these problems together. Frankly, I'm not going to tell that person 334 00:28:55,440 --> 00:29:00,000 without health insurance that I'm sorry you'll have to wait. I'm going to tell you Americans 335 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,240 we'll get to work right away. And we'll get to work together. And we can get them all 336 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,240 done, because that's what America has been doing. 337 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,320 MR. GIBBS. Senator McCain, thank you very much. Senator Obama. 338 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:18,200 THE PRESIDENT. You know, a lot of you remember the tragedy of 9-11 and where you were on 339 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:28,360 that day, and how all of the country was ready to come together and make enormous changes 340 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:33,640 to make us not only safer, but to make us a better country and a more unified country. 341 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:40,680 And President Bush did some smart things at the outset, but one of the opportunities that 342 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:48,680 was missed was when he spoke to the American people, he said, go out and shop. That wasn't 343 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:55,160 the kind of call to service that I think the American people were looking for. And so it's 344 00:29:55,160 --> 00:30:01,200 important to understand that I think the American people are hungry for the kind of leadership 345 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:06,040 that is going to tackle these problems not just in government, but outside of government. 346 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,760 And let's take the example of energy, which we already spoke about. There is going to 347 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:16,440 be the need for each and every one of us to start thinking about how we use energy. I 348 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:23,440 believe in the need for increased oil production. We're going to have to explore new ways to 349 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,600 get more oil, and that includes offshore drilling. It includes telling the oil companies that 350 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:34,240 currently have 68 million acres that they're not using that either you use them or you 351 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:39,760 lose them. We're going to have to develop clean coal technology and safe ways to store 352 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:46,640 nuclear energy. But each and every one of us can start thinking about how can we save 353 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,800 energy in our homes and in our buildings. And one of the things I want to do is make 354 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,280 sure that we're providing incentives so that you can buy a fuel-efficient car that's made 355 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:59,280 right here in the United States of America, not in Japan or South Korea, making sure that 356 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:05,440 you are able to weatherize your home or make your business more fuel-efficient. And that's 357 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,280 going to require effort from each and every one of us. And the last point I just want 358 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:14,960 to make, I think the young people of America are especially interested in how they can 359 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,720 serve. And that's one of the reasons why I'm interested in doubling the Peace Corps, making 360 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:24,200 sure that we are creating a volunteer corps all across this country that can be involved 361 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:29,600 in their community, involved in military service, so that military families and our troops are 362 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:35,880 not the only ones bearing the burden of renewing America. That's something that all of us have 363 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,200 to be involved with, and that requires some leadership from Washington. 364 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:43,800 Mr. Daly. Senator Obama, as we begin very quickly our discussion period, President Bush, 365 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,440 you'll remember last summer, said that Wall Street got drunk. A lot of people now look 366 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:52,240 back and think the federal government got drunk and, in fact, the American consumers 367 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:57,440 got drunk. How would you as President try to break those bad habits of too much debt 368 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:02,360 and too much easy credit, specifically across the board for this country, not just at the 369 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,680 federal level, but as a model for the rest of the country as well? 370 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:11,560 The President Well, I think it starts with Washington. We've got to show that we've got 371 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:17,320 good habits, because if we're running up trillion-dollar debts that we're passing on to the next generation, 372 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,760 then a lot of people are going to think, well, you know what, there's easy money out there. 373 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:27,040 It means โ€” and I have to, again, repeat this โ€” it means not just looking at the 374 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:34,040 spending side, but also at the revenue side. I mean, Senator McCain has been talking tough 375 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:40,880 about earmarks, and that's good. But earmarks account for about $18 billion of our budget. 376 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:47,960 Now, when Senator McCain is proposing tax cuts that would give the average Fortune 500 377 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:54,960 CEO an additional $700,000 in tax cuts, that's not sharing a burden. And so part of the problem, 378 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:02,480 I think, for a lot of people who are listening here tonight is they don't feel as if they 379 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:09,480 are sharing the burden with other folks. I mean, it's tough to ask a teacher who's making 380 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:16,200 $30,000 or $35,000 a year to tighten her belt when people who are making much more than 381 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:23,200 her are living pretty high on the hog. And that's why I think it's important for the 382 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,800 President to set a tone that says all of us are going to contribute, all of us are going 383 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:32,840 to make sacrifices, and it means that, yes, we may have to cut some spending, although 384 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:38,400 I disagree with Senator McCain about an across-the-board freeze. That's an example of an unfair burden 385 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:43,600 sharing. That's using a hatchet to cut the federal budget. I want to use a scalpel so 386 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,920 that people who need help are getting help, and those of us like myself and Senator McCain 387 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:53,840 who don't need help aren't getting it. That's how we make sure that everybody is willing 388 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,160 to make a few sacrifices. 389 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:56,360 Senator McCain. 390 00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:02,860 Right. You know, nailing down Senator Obama's various tax proposals is like nailing Jell-O 391 00:34:02,860 --> 00:34:07,360 to the wall. There's been five or six of them, and if you wait long enough, there will probably 392 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:14,000 be another one. But he wants to raise taxes. My friends, the last president to raise taxes 393 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:21,000 during tough economic times was Herbert Hoover, and he practiced protectionism as well, which 394 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,400 I'm sure we'll get to at some point. 395 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:30,880 You know, last year, up to this time, we've lost 700,000 jobs in America. The only bright 396 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:37,920 spot is that 300 โ€” over 300,000 jobs have been created by small businesses. Senator 397 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:45,000 Obama's secret that you don't know is that his tax increases will increase taxes on 50 398 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:52,600 percent of small business revenue. Small businesses across America will have to cut jobs and will 399 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:59,320 have their taxes increase and won't be able to hire because of Senator Obama's tax policies. 400 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:04,480 You know, he said some time ago, he said he would forgo his tax increases if the economy 401 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:09,200 was bad. I got some news, Senator Obama. The news is bad. 402 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:14,620 So let's not raise anybody's taxes, my friends, and make it very clear to you, I am not in 403 00:35:14,620 --> 00:35:21,620 favor of tax cuts for the wealthy. I am in favor of leaving the tax rates alone and reducing 404 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:27,880 the tax burden on middle-income Americans by doubling your tax exemption for every child 405 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:34,880 from $3,500 to $7,000, to giving every American a $5,000 refundable tax credit and go out 406 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:43,400 and get the health insurance you want, rather than mandates and fines for small businesses, 407 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:48,940 as Senator Obama's plan calls for. And let's create jobs and let's get our economy going 408 00:35:48,940 --> 00:35:51,920 again and let's not raise anybody's taxes. 409 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,640 Senator Obama, we have another question from the Internet. 410 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,520 Tom, can I respond to this briefly? 411 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:03,480 Look, guys, the rules were established by the two campaigns. We worked very hard on 412 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,840 this. This will address, I think, the next question. 413 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,200 The tax issue, because I think it's very important. Go ahead. 414 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,720 There are lots of issues that we're going to be dealing with here tonight. We have a 415 00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:16,680 question from Langdon in Ballston Spa, New York, and that's about huge unfunded obligations 416 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:21,680 for Social Security, Medicare, and other entitlement programs that will soon eat up 417 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,120 all the revenue that's in place and then go into a deficit position. 418 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,480 Since the rules are pretty loose here, I'm going to add my own to this one. Instead of 419 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:33,440 having a discussion, let me just ask you as a coda to that. Would you give Congress a 420 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:40,040 date certain to reform Social Security and Medicare within two years after you take office? 421 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:45,600 Because in a bipartisan way, everyone agrees that's a big ticking time bomb that will eat 422 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,600 us up maybe even more than the mortgage crisis. 423 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:53,520 Well, Tom, we're going to have to take on entitlements, and I think we've got to do 424 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,680 it quickly. We're going to have a lot of work to do, so I can't guarantee that we're going 425 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:02,120 to do it in the next two years. But I'd like to do it in my first term as President. 426 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:06,380 But I think it's important to understand we're not going to solve Social Security and Medicare 427 00:37:06,380 --> 00:37:13,280 unless we understand the rest of our tax policies. And, Senator McCain, I think the straight 428 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:19,400 talk expressed loss of wheel on that one. So let's be clear about my tax plan and Senator 429 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,800 McCain's, because we're not going to be able to deal with entitlements unless we understand 430 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:30,800 the revenues coming in. I want to provide a tax cut for 95 percent of Americans. Ninety-five 431 00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:40,600 percent. If you make less than a quarter million dollars a year, you will not see a single 432 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:47,600 dime of your taxes go up. If you make $200,000 a year or less, your taxes will go down. Now, 433 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:57,600 Senator McCain talks about small businesses. Only a few percent of small businesses make 434 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:03,480 more than $250,000 a year. So the vast majority of small businesses would get a tax cut under 435 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:10,040 my plan. And we provide a 50 percent tax credit so that they can buy health insurance for 436 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,000 their workers, because there are an awful lot of small businesses that I meet all across 437 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:18,560 America that want to do right by their workers, but they just can't afford it. Some small 438 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:23,080 business owners, a lot of them can't even afford health insurance for themselves. Now, 439 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:30,080 in contrast, Senator McCain wants to give a $300 billion tax cut to 200 of it to the 440 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:38,160 largest corporations, and 100,000 of it โ€” 100 billion of it going to people like CEOs on 441 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:44,480 Wall Street. He wants to give the average Fortune 500 CEO an additional $700,000 in 442 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:51,480 tax cuts. That is not fair, and it doesn't work. Now, if we get our tax policies right 443 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:57,080 so that they're good for the middle class, if we reverse the policies of the last eight 444 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:01,440 years that got us into this fix in the first place and that Senator McCain supported, then 445 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,920 we are going to be in a position to deal with Social Security and deal with Medicare, because 446 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:12,000 we will have a health care plan that actually works for you, reduces spending and costs 447 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:18,280 over the long term, and Social Security that is stable and solvent for all Americans and 448 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:18,920 not just some. 449 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,280 Mr. McCain, two years for reform of entitlement programs. 450 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:29,280 I'll answer the question. Look, it's not that hard to fix Social Security, Tom. It's just 451 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:30,840 tough decisions. 452 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:31,320 And Medicare. 453 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,880 I want to get to Medicare in a second. Social Security is not that tough. We know what the 454 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:40,440 problems are, my friends, and we know what the fixes are. We've got to sit down together, 455 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:46,000 cross the table. It's been done before. I saw it done with our wonderful Ronald Reagan, 456 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:50,440 the conservative from California and the liberal Democrat, Tip O'Neill, from Massachusetts. 457 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,320 That's what we need more of. And that's what I've done in Washington. Senator Obama has 458 00:39:54,320 --> 00:40:00,160 never taken on his party leaders on a single major issue. I've taken them on. I'm not too 459 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:04,080 popular sometimes with my own party, much less his. 460 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,360 So Medicare is going to be a little tougher. It's going to be a little tougher because 461 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:12,520 we're talking about very complex and difficult issues. My friends, what we have to do with 462 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:17,720 Medicare is have a commission, have the smartest people in America come together, come up with 463 00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:23,840 recommendations. And then, like the base closing commission idea we had, then we should have 464 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:28,280 Congress vote up or down. Let's not let them fool with it anymore. There's too much special 465 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,840 interest and too many lobbyists working there. 466 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:35,360 So let's have and let's have the American people say, fix it for us. Now, just back 467 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:41,200 on this on this tax, you know, again, it's back to our first question here about rhetoric 468 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:48,560 and record. Senator Obama has voted 94 times to either increase your taxes or against tax 469 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:53,680 cuts. That's his record. When he ran for the United States Senate from Illinois, he said 470 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:58,120 he would have a middle-income tax cut. You know, he came to the Senate and never once 471 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:04,000 proposed legislation to do that. So let's look at our record. I've fought higher taxes. 472 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,880 I have fought excess spending. I have fought to reform government. Let's look at our records, 473 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:14,080 my friends, and then listen to my vision for the future of America. And we'll get our economy 474 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:16,520 going again. And our best days are ahead of us. 475 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:20,920 Mr. Daly. Senator McCain, thank you very much. I'm going to stick by my part of the pack 476 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:26,320 and not ask a follow-up here. The next question does come from the hall. For Senator McCain, 477 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:32,040 it comes from Section C over here. And it's from Ingrid Jackson. Ingrid. 478 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:40,200 Senator McCain, I want to know, we saw that Congress moved pretty fast in the face of 479 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:44,960 an economic crisis. I want to know what you would do within the first two years to make 480 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:50,920 sure that Congress moves fast as far as environmental issues like climate change and green jobs. 481 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:57,840 Senator McCain. Well, thank you. Look, we are in tough economic times. We all know that. 482 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:03,720 And let's keep, never forget the struggle that Americans are in today. But when we can 483 00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:09,320 รฑ when we have an issue that we may hand our children and our grandchildren a damaged 484 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:14,840 planet, I have disagreed strongly with the Bush administration on this issue. I traveled 485 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:20,600 all over the world looking at the effects of greenhouse gas emissions. Joe Lieberman 486 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:25,280 and I introduced the first legislation. And we forced votes on it. That's the good news, 487 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:32,000 my friends. The bad news is we lost. But we kept the debate going. And we kept this issue 488 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,720 to posing to Americans the danger that climate change opposes. 489 00:42:36,720 --> 00:42:42,120 Now, how รฑ what's the best way of fixing it? Nuclear power. Senator Obama says that 490 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:46,920 it has to be safe or disposable or something like that. Look, I was on Navy ships that 491 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:51,760 had nuclear power plants. Nuclear power is safe and it's clean. And it creates hundreds 492 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:58,200 of thousands of jobs. And I know that we can reprocess the spent nuclear fuel, the Japanese, 493 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:03,920 the British, and the French do it. And we can do it, too. Senator Obama has opposed 494 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:09,520 that. We can move forward and clean up our climate and develop green technologies and 495 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:17,600 alternative energies for hybrid, for hydrogen, for battery-powered cars so that we can clean 496 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:22,760 up our environment and at the same time get our economy going by creating millions of 497 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:27,760 jobs. We can do that, we as Americans, because we're the best innovators, we're the best 498 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:32,720 producers, and 95 percent of the people who are our market live outside of the United 499 00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:33,720 States of America. 500 00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:35,720 Senator Obama? 501 00:43:37,720 --> 00:43:45,360 This is one of the biggest challenges of our times. And it is absolutely critical that 502 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:52,040 we understand this is not just a challenge, it's an opportunity. Because if we create 503 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:58,160 a new energy economy, we can create 5 million new jobs easily here in the United States. 504 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:03,520 It can be an engine that drives us into the future the same way the computer was the engine 505 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:09,400 for economic growth over the last couple of decades. And we can do it, but we're going 506 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:15,240 to have to make an investment. The same way the computer was originally invented by a 507 00:44:15,240 --> 00:44:19,720 bunch of government scientists who were trying to figure out for defense purposes how to 508 00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:24,040 communicate, we've got to understand this is a national security issue as well. And 509 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:28,640 that's why we've got to make some investments. And I've called for investments in solar, 510 00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:35,400 wind, geothermal. Contrary to what Senator McCain keeps on saying, I favor nuclear power 511 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:41,880 as one component of our overall energy mix. But this is another example where I think 512 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,640 it is important to look at the record. Senator McCain and I actually agree on something. 513 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:51,880 He said a while back that the big problem with energy is that for 30 years, politicians 514 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,160 in Washington haven't done anything. What Senator McCain doesn't mention is he's been 515 00:44:55,160 --> 00:45:03,120 there 26 of them. And during that time, he voted 23 times against alternative fuels. 516 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:10,200 Twenty-three times. So it's easy to talk about this stuff during a campaign, but it's important 517 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:16,280 for us to understand that it requires a sustained effort from the next president. 518 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:21,960 One last point I want to make on energy. Senator McCain talks a lot about drilling, and that's 519 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:29,120 important. But we have 3 percent of the world's oil reserves, and we use 25 percent of the 520 00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:35,160 world's oil. So what that means is that we can't simply drill our way out of the problem. 521 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:39,840 And we're not going to be able to deal with the climate crisis if our only solution is 522 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:46,120 to use more fossil fuels that create global warming. We're going to have to come up with 523 00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:51,440 alternatives, and that means that the United States government is working with the private 524 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:55,600 sector to fund the kind of innovation that we can then export to countries like China 525 00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:01,560 that also need energy and are setting up one coal-powered plant a week. We've got to make 526 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:05,400 sure that we're giving them the energy that they need or helping them to create the energy 527 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:06,400 that they need. 528 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,840 MR. CLINTON. Gentlemen, you may not have noticed, but we have whites around here. They have 529 00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:13,840 red and green and yellow, and they are a signal to where we are. 530 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:15,280 MR. BOOKER. I'm just trying to keep up with John. 531 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:16,280 MR. CLINTON. Okay, here, John. 532 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,440 MR. BOOKER. Take it like Tom. Wave like that way, and I'll look at you. 533 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:24,800 All right. Here's a follow-up to that one-minute discussion. It's a simple question. 534 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:25,800 MR. CLINTON. Sure. 535 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,880 MR. BOOKER. Should we fund a Manhattan-like project that developed a nuclear bomb to deal 536 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:36,200 with global energy and alternative energy, or should we fund 100,000 garages across America, 537 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,920 the kind of industry and innovation that developed Silicon Valley? 538 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:46,840 MR. CLINTON. I think pure research and development investment on the part of the United States 539 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:52,760 government is certainly appropriate. I think once it gets into productive stages that we 540 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,320 ought to obviously turn it over to the private sector. 541 00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,120 By the way, my friends, I know you grow a little weary of this back and forth. It was 542 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:04,520 an energy bill on the floor of the Senate loaded down with goodies, billions for the 543 00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:09,640 oil companies, and it was sponsored by Bush and Cheney. You know who voted for it? You 544 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:16,240 might never know. That one. You know who voted against it? Me. I have fought time after time 545 00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:22,680 against these bills that come to the floor, and they have all kinds of goodies and all 546 00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:26,560 kinds of things in them for everybody, and they buy off the votes. I vote against them, 547 00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:33,240 my friends. I vote against them. But the point is also, on oil drilling, oil drilling offshore 548 00:47:33,240 --> 00:47:40,840 now is vital so that we can bridge the gap. We can bridge the gap between imported oil, 549 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:45,280 which is a national security issue as well as any other, and it will reduce the price 550 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:50,040 of a barrel of oil because when people know there's a greater supply, then the cost of 551 00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:55,120 that will go down. That's fundamental economics. We've got to drill offshore, my friends, and 552 00:47:55,120 --> 00:48:00,800 we've got to do it now. And we can do it. And as far as nuclear power is concerned, 553 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:07,320 again, again, look at the record. Senator Obama has approved storage and reprocessing 554 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,800 of spent nuclear fuel. And I'll stop, Tommy, and you didn't even weigh it. Thanks. 555 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:16,160 Thank you very much, Senator. Next question for you, Senator Obama, and it comes from 556 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:24,160 the E section over here, and it's from Lindsey Trella. Lindsey? 557 00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:31,280 Senator, selling health care coverage in America as a marketable commodity has become a very 558 00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:36,440 profitable industry. Do you believe health care should be treated as a commodity? 559 00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:45,360 Well, as I travel around the country, this is one of the single most frequently asked 560 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:52,400 issues that I get, is the issue of health care. It is breaking family budgets. I can't 561 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:56,880 tell you how many people I meet who don't have health insurance. If you've got health 562 00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:03,480 insurance, most of you have seen your premiums double over the last eight years, and your 563 00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:08,080 co-payments and deductibles have gone up 30 percent just in the last year alone. And 564 00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:14,000 if you're a small business, it's a crushing burden. So one of the things that I have said 565 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:20,000 from the start of this campaign is that we have a moral commitment, as well as an economic 566 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:25,880 imperative, to do something about the health care crisis that so many families are facing. 567 00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:31,200 So here's what I would do. If you've got health care already, and probably the majority of 568 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:36,320 you do, then you can keep your plan if you are satisfied with it. You can keep your choice 569 00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:42,880 of doctor. We're going to work with your employer to lower the cost of your premiums by up to 570 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:46,920 $2,500 a year. And we're going to do it by investing in prevention. We're going to do 571 00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,880 it by making sure that we use information technology so the medical records are actually 572 00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,800 on computers. Instead of you filling forms out in triplicate when you go to the hospital, 573 00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:59,640 that will reduce medical errors and reduce costs. If you don't have health insurance, 574 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,960 you're going to be able to buy the same kind of insurance that Senator McCain and I enjoy 575 00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:09,480 as federal employees. Because there's a huge pool, we can drop the cost, and nobody will 576 00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:15,040 be excluded for preexisting conditions, which is a huge problem. Now, Senator McCain has 577 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:20,840 a different kind of approach. He says that he's going to give you a $5,000 tax credit. 578 00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:26,760 What he doesn't tell you is that he is going to tax your employer-based health care benefits 579 00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:31,760 for the first time ever. So what one hand giveth, the other hand taketh away. He would 580 00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:36,360 also strip away the ability of states to provide some of the regulations on insurance companies 581 00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:40,120 to make sure that you're not excluded for preexisting conditions, or your mammograms 582 00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:47,120 are covered, or your maternity is covered. And that is fundamentally the wrong way to 583 00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:53,440 go. In fact, just today, business organizations like the United States Chamber of Commerce, 584 00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:59,000 which generally are pretty supportive of Republicans, said that this would lead to the unraveling 585 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:02,400 of the employer-based health care system. That, I don't think, is the kind of change 586 00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:06,160 that we need. We've got to have somebody who's fighting for patients and making sure that 587 00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:10,280 you get decent, affordable health care. And that's something that I'm committed to doing 588 00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:11,280 as President. 589 00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:12,200 MR. SCHIEFFERMANN 590 00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:13,200 Senator McCain. 591 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:14,200 SEN. MCCAIN 592 00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,960 Well, thank you for the question. You really identify one of the really major challenges 593 00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:24,960 that America faces. Copayments go up, costs go up, skyrocketing costs, which make people 594 00:51:25,240 --> 00:51:31,160 less and less able to afford health insurance in America. And we need to do all of the things 595 00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:35,880 that are necessary to make it more efficient. Let's put health records online. That'll reduce 596 00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:42,880 medical errors, as they call them. Let's have community health centers. Let's have walk-in 597 00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:49,240 clinics. Let's do a lot of things to impose efficiencies. But what is at stake here in 598 00:51:49,240 --> 00:51:54,040 this health care issue is the fundamental difference between myself and Senator Obama. 599 00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:57,880 As you notice, he starts talking about government. He starts to say, government will do this, 600 00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:03,120 and government will do that, and then government will. And he'll impose mandates. If you're 601 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:09,560 a small business person and you don't insure your employees, Senator Obama will fine you. 602 00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:14,600 That's remarkable. If you're a parent and you're struggling to get health insurance 603 00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:21,600 for your children, Senator Obama will fine you. I want to give every American a $5,000 604 00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:27,780 refundable tax credit. They can take anywhere, across state lines. Why not? Don't we go across 605 00:52:27,780 --> 00:52:32,640 state lines when we purchase other things in America? Of course it's okay to go across 606 00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:38,120 state lines, because in Arizona, they may offer a better plan that suits you best than 607 00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:44,440 it does here in Tennessee. And if you do the math, those people who have employer-based 608 00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:50,760 health benefits, if you put the tax on it and you have what's left over, and you add 609 00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:57,760 $5,000 that you're going to get as a refundable tax credit, do the math, 95% of the American 610 00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:05,360 people will have increased funds to go out and buy the insurance of their choice and 611 00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:10,400 to shop around and to get, all those people will be covered except for those who have 612 00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:15,920 these gold-plated, Cadillac kinds of policies. You know, like hair transplants. I might need 613 00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:22,680 one of those myself. But the point is that we have got to give people choice in America, 614 00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:28,440 and not mandate things on them, and give them the ability. Every parent I know would acquire 615 00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:33,240 health insurance for their children if they could. Obviously small business people want 616 00:53:33,240 --> 00:53:38,560 to give their employees health insurance. Of course they all want to do that. We've 617 00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:43,720 got to give them the wherewithal to do it. We can do it by giving them, as a start, a 618 00:53:43,720 --> 00:53:48,480 $5,000 refundable tax credit to go around and get the health insurance policy of their 619 00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:48,880 choice. 620 00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:55,000 Borg. Quick discussion. Is health care in America a privilege, a right, or a responsibility, 621 00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:56,000 Senator McCain? 622 00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:04,040 I think it's a responsibility in this respect, in that we should have available and affordable 623 00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:10,960 health care to every American citizen, to every family member. And with the plan that 624 00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:17,960 I have, that will do that. But government mandates, I'm always a little nervous about. 625 00:54:18,980 --> 00:54:24,600 But it is certainly my responsibility, certainly small business people and others. And they 626 00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:30,280 understand that responsibility. American citizens understand that. Employers understand that. 627 00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:36,160 But they certainly are a little nervous when Senator Obama says, if you don't get the health 628 00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:40,480 care policy that I think you should have, that you're going to get fined. And by the 629 00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:45,080 way, Senator Obama has never mentioned how much that fine might be. Perhaps we might 630 00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:45,880 find that out tonight. 631 00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:49,600 Well, why don't we โ€“ let's talk about this, Tom, because there was just a lot of stuff 632 00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:49,920 out there. 633 00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,520 Perfectly right responsibility. Sorry about that. 634 00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:56,800 I think it should be a right for every American in a country as wealthy as ours for us to 635 00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:01,680 have people who are going bankrupt because they can't pay their medical bills. For my 636 00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:06,920 mother to die of cancer at the age of 53 and have to spend the last months of her life 637 00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:11,320 in a hospital room arguing with insurance companies because they're saying that this 638 00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,920 may be a preexisting condition and they don't have to pay her treatment, there's something 639 00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:17,360 fundamentally wrong about that. 640 00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:22,120 So let me just talk about this fundamental difference. And, Tom, I know that we're under 641 00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:24,760 time constraints, but Senator McCain threw a lot of stuff out there. 642 00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:29,480 Number one, let me just repeat, if you've got a health care plan that you like, you 643 00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:33,920 can keep it. All I'm going to do is help you to lower the premiums on it. You'll still 644 00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:38,280 have choice of doctor. There's no mandate involved. Small businesses are not going to 645 00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:43,200 have a mandate. What we're going to give you is a 50 percent tax credit to help provide 646 00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:46,040 health care for those that you need. 647 00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:50,960 Now, it's true that I say that you are going to have to make sure that your child has health 648 00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:56,360 care, because children are relatively cheap to insure and we don't want them going to 649 00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:00,080 the emergency room for treatable illnesses like asthma. And when Senator McCain says 650 00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:04,840 that he wants to provide children health care, what he doesn't mention is he voted against 651 00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:09,600 the expansion of the Children's Health Insurance Program that is responsible for making sure 652 00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:13,840 that so many children who didn't have previously health insurance have it now. 653 00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:20,120 Now, the final point I'll make is on this whole issue of government intrusion and mandates. 654 00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:26,160 It is absolutely true that I think it is important for government to crack down on 655 00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:33,640 insurance companies that are cheating their customers, that don't give you the fine print 656 00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:38,120 so you end up thinking that you're paying for something and when you finally get sick 657 00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:42,660 and you need it, you're not getting it. And the reason that it's a problem to go shopping 658 00:56:42,660 --> 00:56:48,760 state by state, you know what insurance companies will do? They will find a state, maybe Arizona, 659 00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:54,480 maybe another state, where there are no requirements for you to get cancer screenings, where there 660 00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:59,600 are no requirements for you to have to get preexisting conditions. And they will all 661 00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:05,720 set up shop there. That's how in banking it works. Everybody goes to Delaware because 662 00:57:05,720 --> 00:57:11,720 they've got pretty loose laws when it comes to things like credit cards. And in that situation, 663 00:57:11,720 --> 00:57:16,840 what happens is, is that the protections you have, the consumer protections that you need, 664 00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:19,720 you're not going to have available to you. That is a fundamental difference that I have 665 00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:24,120 with Senator McCain. He believes in deregulation in every circumstance. That's what we've been 666 00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:27,840 going through for the last eight years. It hasn't worked. And we need fundamental change. 667 00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:32,480 Senator, we want to move on now. We come back to the hall here. We're going to shift gears 668 00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:35,960 here a little bit and we're going to go to foreign policy and international matters if 669 00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:36,960 we can. 670 00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:40,600 Before we leave that, did we hear the size of the fine? 671 00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:45,320 Phil Elliott is over here in this section. And Phil Elliott has a question for Senator 672 00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:46,320 McCain. Phil? 673 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:53,600 Senator McCain, how will all the recent economic stress affect our nation's ability to act 674 00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:56,320 as a peacemaker in the world? 675 00:57:56,320 --> 00:58:04,120 Well, I thank you for that question because there's no doubt that history shows us that 676 00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:10,200 nations that are strong militarily over time have to have a strong economy as well. And 677 00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:17,360 that is one of the challenges that America faces. But having said that, America and we'll 678 00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:21,760 hear a lot of criticism, I've heard a lot of criticism about America and our national 679 00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:27,440 security policy and all that. And much of that criticism is justified. But the fact 680 00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:33,680 is America is the greatest force for good in the history of the world. My friends, we 681 00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:39,080 have gone to all four corners of the earth and shed American blood in defense usually 682 00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:45,640 of somebody else's freedom and our own. So we are peacemakers and we're peacekeepers. 683 00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:50,880 But the challenge is to know when the United States of America can beneficially affect 684 00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:57,920 the outcome of a crisis, when to go in and when not, when American military power is 685 00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:04,200 worth the expenditure of our most precious treasure. And that question can only be answered 686 00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:10,320 with someone with the knowledge and the experience and the judgment, the judgment to know when 687 00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:15,200 our national security is not only at risk but where the United States of America can 688 00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:20,280 make a difference in preventing genocide, in preventing the spread of terrorism, in 689 00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:25,080 doing the things that the United States has done. Not always well, but we've done because 690 00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:31,320 we're a nation of good. And I am convinced that my record, going back to my opposition 691 00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:37,880 from sending the Marines to Lebanon to supporting our efforts in Kosovo and Bosnia and the first 692 00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:44,120 Gulf War, and my judgment, I think, is something that I'm a record that I'm willing to stand 693 00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:50,120 on. Senator Obama was wrong about Iraq and the surge. He was wrong about Russia when 694 00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:56,320 they committed aggression against Georgia. And in his short career, he does not understand 695 00:59:56,320 --> 01:00:00,920 our national security challenges. We don't have time for on-the-job training, my friend. 696 01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:07,840 Senator Obama, the economic constraints on U.S. military action around the world. 697 01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:14,840 Well, you know, Senator McCain in the last debate and today again suggested that I don't 698 01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:20,920 understand. It's true. There are some things I don't understand. I don't understand how 699 01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:26,640 we ended up invading a country that had nothing to do with 9-11, while Osama bin Laden and 700 01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:33,640 al Qaeda are setting up base camps and safe havens to train terrorists to attack us. That 701 01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:38,200 was Senator McCain's judgment, and it was the wrong judgment. When Senator McCain was 702 01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:42,440 cheerleading the President to go into Iraq, he suggested it was going to be quick and 703 01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:48,280 easy, we'd be greeted as liberators. That was the wrong judgment. And it's been costly 704 01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:55,280 to us. So one of the difficulties with Iraq is that it has put an enormous strain, first 705 01:00:55,440 --> 01:01:01,400 of all, on our troops, obviously, and they have performed heroically and honorably, and 706 01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:06,280 we owe them an extraordinary debt of gratitude. But it's also put an enormous strain on our 707 01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:13,280 budget. We've spent so far close to $700 billion, and if we continue on the path that we're 708 01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:20,280 on, as Senator McCain is suggesting, it's going to go well over a trillion dollars. 709 01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:27,280 We're spending $10 billion a month in Iraq at a time when the Iraqis have a $79 billion 710 01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:34,280 surplus. Seventy-nine billion dollars. And we need that $10 billion a month here in the 711 01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:39,280 United States to put people back to work, to do all these wonderful things that Senator 712 01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:44,280 McCain suggested we should be doing but has not yet explained how he would pay for. 713 01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:50,080 Now, Senator McCain and I do agree this is the greatest nation on Earth. We are a force 714 01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:55,480 of good in the world. But there has never been a nation in the history of the world 715 01:01:55,480 --> 01:02:02,480 that saw its economy decline and maintained its military superiority, and the strains 716 01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:07,840 that have been placed on our alliances around the world, and the respect that's been diminished 717 01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:12,900 over the last eight years, has constrained us in able to act on something like the genocide 718 01:02:12,900 --> 01:02:18,200 in Darfur because we don't have the resources or the allies to do everything that we should 719 01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:22,740 be doing. That's going to change when I'm President, but we can't change it unless we 720 01:02:22,740 --> 01:02:28,360 fundamentally change Senator McCain's and George Bush's foreign policy. It has not worked 721 01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:29,360 for America. 722 01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:33,480 Senator Obama, let me ask you, let's see if we can establish tonight the Obama doctrine 723 01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:39,720 and the McCain doctrine for the use of United States combat forces in situations where there's 724 01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:45,280 a humanitarian crisis, but it does not affect our national security. Take the Congo, where 725 01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:51,000 4.5 million people have died since 1998. Or take Rwanda in the earlier and dreadful days. 726 01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:56,400 Or Somalia. What is the Obama doctrine for use of force that the United States would 727 01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:58,720 send when we don't have national security issues at stake? 728 01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:04,320 Well, we may not always have national security issues at stake, but we have moral issues 729 01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:12,360 at stake. If we could have intervened effectively in the Holocaust, who among us would say that 730 01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:20,680 we had a moral obligation not to go in? If we could have stopped Rwanda, surely if we 731 01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:27,080 had the ability, that would be something that we would have to strongly consider and act. 732 01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:32,680 So when genocide is happening, when ethnic cleansing is happening somewhere around the 733 01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:41,920 world and we stand idly by, that diminishes us. And so I do believe that we have to consider 734 01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:46,360 it as part of our interests, our national interests, in intervening where possible. 735 01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:51,840 But understand that there's a lot of cruelty around the world. We're not going to be able 736 01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:57,920 to be everywhere all the time. That's why it's so important for us to be able to work 737 01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:03,400 in concert with our allies. Let's take the example of Darfur just for a moment. Right 738 01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:09,320 now, there is a peacekeeping force that has been set up, and we have African Union troops 739 01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:13,240 in Darfur to stop a genocide that has killed hundreds of thousands of people. We could 740 01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:18,760 be providing logistical support, setting up a no-fly zone, at relatively little cost to 741 01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:24,440 us. But we can only do it if we can help mobilize the international community and lead. 742 01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:25,960 And that's what I intend to do when I'm President. 743 01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:28,360 MR. SCHIEFFERMANN Senator McCain, the McCain doctrine, if you will. 744 01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:34,720 SEN. MCCAIN Well, let me just follow up, my friends. If we had done what Senator Obama 745 01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:39,720 wanted done in Iraq, and that was set a date for withdrawal, which General Petraeus, our 746 01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:44,480 chief of staff, our chairman of our Joint Chiefs of Staff, said would be a very dangerous 747 01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:49,480 course to take for America, then we would have had a wider war. We would have been back. 748 01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:53,720 Iranian influence would have increased. Al Qaeda would have reestablished a base. There 749 01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:59,760 was a lot at stake there, my friends. And I can tell you right now that Senator Obama 750 01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:04,200 would have brought our troops home in defeat. I'll bring them home with victory and with 751 01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:06,560 honor. And that is a fundamental difference. 752 01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:12,340 The United States of America, Tom, is the greatest force for good, as I said. And we 753 01:05:12,340 --> 01:05:18,580 must do whatever we can to prevent genocide, whatever we can to prevent these terrible 754 01:05:18,580 --> 01:05:23,700 calamities that we have said never again. But it also has to be tempered with our ability 755 01:05:23,700 --> 01:05:30,420 to beneficially affect the situation. That requires a cool hand at the tiller. This requires 756 01:05:30,420 --> 01:05:35,580 a person who understands what are the limits of our capability are. 757 01:05:35,580 --> 01:05:42,580 We went in to Somalia as a peacemaking organization. We ended up trying to be, excuse me, as peacekeeping 758 01:05:44,060 --> 01:05:51,060 organization. We ended up trying to be peacemakers. And we ended up having to withdraw in humiliation. 759 01:05:51,500 --> 01:05:56,740 In Lebanon, I stood up to President Reagan, my hero, and said, if we send Marines in there, 760 01:05:56,740 --> 01:06:02,700 how can we possibly beneficially affect this situation, and said we shouldn't. Unfortunately, 761 01:06:02,700 --> 01:06:08,660 almost 300 brave young Marines were killed. So you have to temper your decisions with 762 01:06:08,660 --> 01:06:15,220 the ability to beneficially affect the situation and realize you're sending America's most 763 01:06:15,220 --> 01:06:19,620 precious asset, American blood, into harm's way. 764 01:06:19,620 --> 01:06:25,860 And again, I know those situations. I've been in them all my life. And I can tell you right 765 01:06:25,860 --> 01:06:31,260 now, the security of your young men and women who are serving in the military are my first 766 01:06:31,260 --> 01:06:36,700 priority right after our nation's security. And I may have to make those tough decisions, 767 01:06:36,700 --> 01:06:42,460 but I won't take them lightly. And I understand that we have to say never again to a Holocaust 768 01:06:42,460 --> 01:06:48,860 and never again to Rwanda. But we also better be darn sure we don't leave and make the situation 769 01:06:48,860 --> 01:06:55,140 worse, thereby exacerbating our reputation and our ability to address crises in other 770 01:06:55,140 --> 01:06:55,980 parts of the world. 771 01:06:55,980 --> 01:07:00,060 Mr. Earnest. Senator McCain, thank you very much. Next question for Senator Obama. It 772 01:07:00,060 --> 01:07:03,820 comes from the F section, and it's from Katie Hamm. Katie. 773 01:07:03,820 --> 01:07:12,820 Q Should the United States respect Pakistani sovereignty and not pursue al Qaeda terrorists 774 01:07:12,820 --> 01:07:17,820 who maintain bases there? Or should we ignore their borders and pursue our enemies, like 775 01:07:17,820 --> 01:07:20,500 we did in Cambodia during the Vietnam War? 776 01:07:20,500 --> 01:07:28,460 THE PRESIDENT Katie, it's a terrific question. And we have a difficult situation in Pakistan. 777 01:07:28,460 --> 01:07:32,860 I believe that part of the reason we have a difficult situation is because we made a 778 01:07:32,860 --> 01:07:38,260 bad judgment going into Iraq in the first place when we hadn't finished the job of hunting 779 01:07:38,260 --> 01:07:44,860 down bin Laden and crushing al Qaeda. So what happened was we got distracted, we diverted 780 01:07:44,860 --> 01:07:52,300 resources, and ultimately bin Laden escaped, set up base camps in the mountains of Pakistan 781 01:07:52,300 --> 01:07:58,940 in the northwest provinces there. They are now raiding our troops in Afghanistan, destabilizing 782 01:07:58,940 --> 01:08:04,700 the situation. They're stronger now than at any time since 2001. And that's why I think 783 01:08:04,700 --> 01:08:09,020 it's so important for us to reverse course, because that's the central front on terrorism. 784 01:08:09,020 --> 01:08:15,700 They are plotting to kill Americans right now. As Secretary Gates, the Defense Secretary, 785 01:08:15,700 --> 01:08:22,740 said, the war against terrorism began in that region and that's where it will end. So part 786 01:08:22,740 --> 01:08:26,100 of the reason I think it's so important for us to end the war in Iraq is to be able to 787 01:08:26,100 --> 01:08:29,860 get more troops into Afghanistan, put more pressure on the Afghan government to do what 788 01:08:29,860 --> 01:08:34,340 it needs to do, eliminate some of the drug trafficking that's funding terrorism. But 789 01:08:34,340 --> 01:08:40,860 I do believe that we have to change our policies with Pakistan. We can't coddle, as we did, 790 01:08:40,860 --> 01:08:45,980 a dictator, give him billions of dollars, and then he's making peace treaties with the 791 01:08:45,980 --> 01:08:52,940 Taliban and militants. What I've said is we're going to encourage democracy in Pakistan, 792 01:08:52,940 --> 01:09:01,020 expand our non-military aid to Pakistan so that they have more of a stake in working 793 01:09:01,060 --> 01:09:06,900 with us, but insisting that they go after these militants. And if we have Osama bin 794 01:09:06,900 --> 01:09:13,900 Laden in our sights and the Pakistani government is unable or unwilling to take them out, then 795 01:09:14,780 --> 01:09:19,500 I think that we have to act. And we will take them out. We will kill bin Laden. We will 796 01:09:19,500 --> 01:09:23,180 crush al Qaeda. That has to be our biggest national security priority. 797 01:09:23,900 --> 01:09:24,900 Senator McCain. 798 01:09:24,900 --> 01:09:35,220 Well, Katie, thank you. You know, my hero is a guy named Teddy Roosevelt. Teddy Roosevelt 799 01:09:35,220 --> 01:09:41,940 used to say, walk softly, talk softly, but carry a big stick. Senator Obama likes to 800 01:09:41,940 --> 01:09:48,700 talk loudly. In fact, he said he wants to announce that he's going to attack Pakistan. 801 01:09:48,740 --> 01:09:56,220 Remarkable. You know, if you are a country and you're trying to gain the support of another 802 01:09:56,220 --> 01:10:02,460 country, then you want to do everything you can that they would act in a cooperative fashion. 803 01:10:02,460 --> 01:10:06,980 When you announce that you're going to launch an attack into another country, it's pretty 804 01:10:06,980 --> 01:10:11,340 obvious that you have the effect that it had in Pakistan. It turns public opinion against 805 01:10:11,340 --> 01:10:17,740 us. Now, let me just go back with you very briefly. We drove the Russians out with the 806 01:10:17,740 --> 01:10:22,060 Afghan freedom fighters, drove the Russians out of Afghanistan, and then we made this 807 01:10:22,060 --> 01:10:28,020 most serious mistake. We washed our hands of Afghanistan. The Taliban came back in, 808 01:10:28,020 --> 01:10:35,340 al Qaeda, and we then had the situation that required us to conduct the Afghan war. Now, 809 01:10:35,340 --> 01:10:41,300 our relations with Pakistan are critical because the border areas are being used as safe havens 810 01:10:41,300 --> 01:10:48,340 by the Taliban and al Qaeda and other extremist organizations. And we have to get their support. 811 01:10:48,340 --> 01:10:55,260 Now, General Petraeus had a strategy, the same strategy, very different because of the 812 01:10:55,260 --> 01:11:01,140 conditions and the situation, but the same fundamental strategy that succeeded in Iraq, 813 01:11:01,140 --> 01:11:06,400 and that is to get the support of the people. We need to help the Pakistani government go 814 01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:12,160 into Waziristan, where I visited, a very rough country, and get the support of the people 815 01:11:12,160 --> 01:11:17,800 and get them to work with us and turn against the cruel Taliban and others, and by working 816 01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:22,560 and coordinating our efforts together, not threatening to attack them, but working with 817 01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:28,840 them, and where necessary, use force, but talk softly, but carry a big stick. 818 01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:29,840 Mr. Rhodes. Senator McCain. 819 01:11:29,840 --> 01:11:30,840 Mr. McCain. 820 01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:33,000 Mr. Obama. Tom, just a quick follow-up on this. I think... 821 01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:35,600 Mr. McCain. If we're going to have follow-ups, then I will want follow-ups. 822 01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:39,000 Mr. Obama. No, no, no, I know. So I think we'll get at it if I can with this question. 823 01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:40,000 Mr. McCain. You're fine with me. You're fine with me. 824 01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:41,000 Mr. Obama. All right, let's have a follow-up. 825 01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:42,000 Mr. McCain. You're fine with me. 826 01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:44,680 Mr. Obama. Just a quick follow-up, because I think this is important. 827 01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:46,560 Mr. McCain. I'm just a hired health care. So I mean... 828 01:11:46,560 --> 01:11:54,400 Mr. Obama. You're doing a great job, Tom. Look, I want to be very clear about what I 829 01:11:54,400 --> 01:12:00,520 said. Nobody called for the invasion of Pakistan. Senator McCain continues to repeat this. What 830 01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:06,920 I said was the same thing that the audience here today heard me say, which is if Pakistan 831 01:12:06,920 --> 01:12:15,880 is unable or unwilling to hunt down bin Laden and take him out, then we should. Now, that 832 01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:21,760 I think has to be our policy, because they are threatening to kill more Americans. Now, 833 01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:28,720 Senator McCain suggests that somehow, you know, I'm green behind the ears and I've just 834 01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:33,040 spouted off and he's somber and responsible. 835 01:12:33,040 --> 01:12:34,040 Mr. McCain. Thank you very much. 836 01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:37,960 The President. Senator McCain, this is the guy who sang, 837 01:12:37,960 --> 01:12:44,320 bomb, bomb, bomb Iran, who called for the annihilation of North Korea. That I don't 838 01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:50,520 think is an example of speaking softly. This is the person who, after we had we hadn't 839 01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:57,000 even finished Afghanistan, where he said, next up, Baghdad. So I agree that we have 840 01:12:57,000 --> 01:13:05,360 to speak responsibly and we have to act responsibly. And the reason Pakistan, the popular opinion 841 01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:10,960 of America had diminished in Pakistan was because we were supporting a dictator, Musharraf, 842 01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:17,160 had given him $10 billion over seven years, and he had suspended civil liberties. We were 843 01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:23,720 not promoting democracy. This is the kind of policies that ultimately end up undermining 844 01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:26,880 our ability to fight the war on terrorism, and it will change when I'm President. 845 01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:31,080 Mr. McCain. Tom, if we're going to go back and forth, I then I'd like to have equal time 846 01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:32,520 to go to respond. 847 01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:35,520 Mr. Osnos. Yeah, you get to last word here, and then we have to move on. 848 01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:42,080 Mr. McCain. Not true. Not true. I have obviously supported those efforts that the United States 849 01:13:42,080 --> 01:13:48,120 had to go in militarily, and I have opposed those that I didn't think so. I understand 850 01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:53,560 what it's like to send young Americans in harm's way. I say I was joking with a veteran. 851 01:13:53,600 --> 01:13:57,000 I hate to even go into this. I was joking with an old veteran friend who joked with 852 01:13:57,000 --> 01:14:06,280 me about Iran. But the point is that I know how to handle these crises, and Senator Obama, 853 01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:11,240 by saying that he would attack Pakistan, look at the context of his words. I'll get Osama 854 01:14:11,240 --> 01:14:17,360 bin Laden, my friends. I'll get him. I know how to get him. I'll get him no matter what, 855 01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:22,440 and I know how to do it. But I'm not going to telegraph my punches, which is what Senator 856 01:14:22,440 --> 01:14:28,160 Obama did, and I'm going to act responsibly as I have acted responsibly throughout my 857 01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:34,140 military career and throughout my career in the United States Senate. And we have fundamental 858 01:14:34,140 --> 01:14:39,280 disagreements about the use of military power and how you do it, and you just saw it in 859 01:14:39,280 --> 01:14:41,440 response to previous questions. 860 01:14:41,440 --> 01:14:45,000 Can I get a quick response from the two of you about developments in Afghanistan this 861 01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:50,280 week? The senior British military commander, who is now leaving after a second tour, and 862 01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:55,320 their senior diplomatic presence there, Sherrod Cooper Coles, who is well known as an expert 863 01:14:55,320 --> 01:15:01,120 in the area, both have said that we're failing in Afghanistan. The commander said we cannot 864 01:15:01,120 --> 01:15:06,040 win there. We've got to get it down to a low-level insurgency, let the Afghans take it over. 865 01:15:06,040 --> 01:15:11,640 Cooper Coles said what we need is an acceptable dictator. If either of you becomes president, 866 01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:17,880 as one of you will, how do you reorganize Afghanistan's strategy, or do you? Briefly, 867 01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:18,880 if you can. 868 01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:27,400 Very briefly. We are going to have to make the Iraqi government start taking more responsibility, 869 01:15:27,400 --> 01:15:34,320 withdraw our troops in a responsible way over time, because we're going to have to put some 870 01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:41,600 additional troops in Afghanistan. General McKiernan, the commander in Afghanistan right 871 01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:50,200 now, is desperate for more help because our bases and outposts are now targets for more 872 01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:55,360 aggressive Afghan Taliban offensives. We're also going to have to work with the Karzai 873 01:15:55,360 --> 01:16:00,640 government. And when I met with President Karzai, I was very clear that you are going 874 01:16:00,640 --> 01:16:05,280 to have to do better by your people in order for us to gain the popular support that's 875 01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:09,640 necessary. I don't think he has to be a dictator. We want a democracy in Afghanistan. But we 876 01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:15,000 have to have a government that is responsive to the Afghan people. And, frankly, it's just 877 01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:16,480 not responsive right now. 878 01:16:16,480 --> 01:16:18,600 Senator McCain, briefly. 879 01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:25,440 General Petraeus has just taken over a position of responsibility where he has the command 880 01:16:25,440 --> 01:16:31,600 and will really set the tone for the strategy and tactics that are using. I've had conversations 881 01:16:31,600 --> 01:16:37,240 with him. It is the same overall strategy. Of course we have to do some things tactically, 882 01:16:37,520 --> 01:16:42,720 some of which Senator Obama is correct on. We have to double the size of the Afghan army. 883 01:16:42,720 --> 01:16:47,040 We have to have a streamlined NATO command structure. We have to do a lot of things. 884 01:16:47,040 --> 01:16:52,440 We have to work much more closely with the Pakistanis. But most importantly, we have 885 01:16:52,440 --> 01:16:58,800 to have the same strategy which Senator Obama said wouldn't work, couldn't work, still fails 886 01:16:58,800 --> 01:17:03,600 to admit that he was wrong about Iraq. He still will not admit that he was wrong about 887 01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:10,600 the strategy of the surge in Iraq. And that's the same kind of strategy of go out and secure 888 01:17:10,760 --> 01:17:17,200 and hold and allow people to live normal lives. And once they feel secure, then they lead 889 01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:23,960 normal social, economic, political lives. The same thing that's happening in Iraq today. 890 01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:29,200 So I have confidence that General Petraeus, working with the Pakistanis, working with 891 01:17:29,200 --> 01:17:34,480 the Afghans, doing the same job that he did in Iraq, will again, we will succeed and we 892 01:17:34,480 --> 01:17:38,120 will bring our troops home with honor and victory and not in defeat. 893 01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:41,800 Mr. Daly. Senator McCain, this question is for you from the Internet. It's from Alden 894 01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:47,720 in Hewitt, Texas. How can we apply pressure to Russia for humanitarian issues in an effective 895 01:17:47,720 --> 01:17:49,360 manner without starting another Cold War? 896 01:17:49,360 --> 01:17:54,200 Senator McCain. First of all, I say I don't think we're not going to have another Cold 897 01:17:54,240 --> 01:18:01,240 War with Russia. But have no doubt that Russia's behavior is certainly outside the norms of 898 01:18:03,080 --> 01:18:08,440 behavior that we would expect for nations which are very wealthy, as Russia has become 899 01:18:08,440 --> 01:18:14,920 because of their petrodollars. Now, long ago I warned about Vladimir Putin. I said I looked 900 01:18:14,920 --> 01:18:21,120 into his eyes and saw three letters, a K, a G, and a B. He has surrounded himself with 901 01:18:21,120 --> 01:18:26,560 former KGB apparatchiks. He has gradually repressed most of the liberties that we would 902 01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:33,560 expect for nations to observe. And he has exhibited most aggressive behavior, obviously 903 01:18:34,080 --> 01:18:41,080 in Georgia, said before, watch Ukraine. Ukraine right now is in the sights of Vladimir Putin, 904 01:18:41,520 --> 01:18:47,600 those that want to reassemble the old Soviet Union. We've got to show moral support for 905 01:18:47,640 --> 01:18:52,680 Georgia. We've got to show moral support for Ukraine. We've got to advocate for their membership 906 01:18:52,680 --> 01:18:58,240 in NATO. We have to make the Russians understand that there are penalties for this kind of 907 01:18:58,240 --> 01:19:05,240 behavior, this kind of naked aggression into Georgia, a tiny country and a tiny democracy. 908 01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:11,920 And so, of course, we want to bring international pressures to bear on Russia in hopes that 909 01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:17,280 that will modify and eventually change their behavior. Now, the G8 is one of those, but 910 01:19:17,280 --> 01:19:24,280 there are many others. But the Russians must understand that these kinds of actions and 911 01:19:25,160 --> 01:19:31,520 activities are not acceptable. And hopefully we will use the leverage, economic, diplomatic 912 01:19:31,520 --> 01:19:36,880 and others, and unite it with our allies, with our allies and friends in Europe who 913 01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:40,320 are equally disturbed as we are about their recent behavior. 914 01:19:40,320 --> 01:19:44,640 Mr. Earnest. Senator Obama will not be a re-ignition of the Cold War, but Russia is a challenge. 915 01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:48,520 Senator Obama? We're winding down so we can keep track of the time. 916 01:19:48,520 --> 01:19:53,280 The President Well, the resurgence of Russia is one of the 917 01:19:53,280 --> 01:20:00,280 central issues that we're going to have to deal with in the next presidency. And for 918 01:20:00,920 --> 01:20:05,360 the most part, I agree with Senator McCain on many of the steps that have to be taken, 919 01:20:05,360 --> 01:20:10,080 but we can't just provide moral support. We've got to provide moral support to the Poles 920 01:20:10,080 --> 01:20:15,840 and Estonia and Latvia and all the nations that were former Soviet satellites. But we've 921 01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:22,840 also got to provide them with financial and concrete assistance to help rebuild their 922 01:20:22,920 --> 01:20:29,920 economies. Georgia in particular is now at the brink of enormous economic challenges, 923 01:20:30,480 --> 01:20:34,120 and some say that that's what Putin intended in the first place. 924 01:20:34,120 --> 01:20:37,320 The other thing we have to do, though, is we've got to see around the corners. We've 925 01:20:37,320 --> 01:20:43,720 got to anticipate some of these problems ahead of time. Back in April, I put out a 926 01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:50,460 statement saying that the situation in Georgia was unsustainable because you had Russian 927 01:20:50,460 --> 01:20:57,460 peacekeepers in these territories that were under dispute. And you knew that if the Russians 928 01:20:57,680 --> 01:21:04,640 themselves were trying to obtain some of these territories or push back against Georgia, 929 01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:10,280 that that was not a stable situation. So part of the job of the next Commander-in-Chief 930 01:21:10,280 --> 01:21:16,320 in keeping all of you safe is making sure that we can see some of the 21st century challenges 931 01:21:16,320 --> 01:21:21,920 and anticipate them before they happen. We haven't been doing enough of that. We tend 932 01:21:21,920 --> 01:21:27,180 to be reactive. That's what we've been doing over the last eight years. And that has actually 933 01:21:27,180 --> 01:21:34,180 made us more safe. That's part of what happened in Afghanistan, where we rushed into Iraq 934 01:21:34,380 --> 01:21:41,380 and sent a lot of people to the hospital. And Senator McCain and President Bush suggested 935 01:21:41,380 --> 01:21:45,980 that it wasn't that important to catch bin Laden right now and that we could muddle through. 936 01:21:45,980 --> 01:21:51,780 And that has cost us dearly. We've got to be much more strategic if we're going to be 937 01:21:51,780 --> 01:21:55,980 able to deal with all the challenges that we face out there. And one last point I want 938 01:21:55,980 --> 01:22:00,980 to make about Russia. Energy is going to be key in dealing with Russia. If we can reduce 939 01:22:00,980 --> 01:22:05,980 the amount of energy that we use to make mischief around the world, that will strengthen 940 01:22:05,980 --> 01:22:08,980 us and weaken them when it comes to issues like Georgia. 941 01:22:08,980 --> 01:22:13,980 This requires only a yes or a no. Ronald Reagan famously said that the Soviet Union was the 942 01:22:13,980 --> 01:22:18,980 evil empire. Do you think that Russia, under Vladimir Putin, is an evil empire? 943 01:22:18,980 --> 01:22:25,980 I think they've engaged in evil behavior. And I think that it is important that we understand 944 01:22:25,980 --> 01:22:30,980 that we still have nationalist impulses that I think are very dangerous. 945 01:22:30,980 --> 01:22:31,980 Senator McCain? 946 01:22:31,980 --> 01:22:32,980 Maybe. 947 01:22:32,980 --> 01:22:33,980 Maybe. 948 01:22:33,980 --> 01:22:41,980 It depends on how we respond to Russia and depends on a lot of things. If I say yes, 949 01:22:41,980 --> 01:22:47,980 then that means that we're reigniting the old Cold War. If I say no, it ignores their 950 01:22:48,980 --> 01:22:55,980 Obviously, energy is going to be a big, big factor. And Georgia and Ukraine are both major 951 01:22:55,980 --> 01:23:01,980 gateways of energy into Europe. And that's one of the reasons why it's in our interest. 952 01:23:01,980 --> 01:23:07,980 But the Russians, I think we can deal with them. But they've got to understand that they're 953 01:23:07,980 --> 01:23:13,980 facing a very firm and determined United States of America that will defend our interests 954 01:23:13,980 --> 01:23:15,980 and that of other countries in the world. 955 01:23:15,980 --> 01:23:19,980 All right. We're going to try to get in two more questions if we can. So we have to move 956 01:23:19,980 --> 01:23:24,980 along. Over in Section A, Terry Shirey. Do I have that right, Terry? 957 01:23:24,980 --> 01:23:26,980 Senator. 958 01:23:26,980 --> 01:23:34,980 As a retired Navy chief, my thoughts are often with those who serve our country. I know both 959 01:23:34,980 --> 01:23:40,980 candidates, both of you expressed support for Israel. If despite your best diplomatic 960 01:23:40,980 --> 01:23:45,980 efforts, Iran attacks Israel, would you be willing to commit U.S. troops in support and 961 01:23:45,980 --> 01:23:50,980 defense of Israel? Or would you wait on approval from the U.N. Security Council? 962 01:23:50,980 --> 01:23:57,980 Well, thank you, Terry. And thank you for your service to the country. I want to say 963 01:23:57,980 --> 01:24:01,980 everything I ever learned about leadership, I learned from a chief petty officer. And I 964 01:24:01,980 --> 01:24:07,980 thank you. And I thank you, my friend. Thanks for serving. Let me say that we obviously 965 01:24:07,980 --> 01:24:13,980 would not wait for the United Nations Security Council. I think the realities are that both 966 01:24:13,980 --> 01:24:23,980 Russia and China would probably pose significant obstacles. And our challenge right now is 967 01:24:23,980 --> 01:24:29,980 the Iranians continue on the path to acquiring nuclear weapons. And it's a great threat. 968 01:24:29,980 --> 01:24:35,980 It's not just a threat to the state of Israel. It's a threat to the stability of the entire 969 01:24:35,980 --> 01:24:40,980 Middle East. If Iran acquires nuclear weapons, all the other countries will acquire them, too. 970 01:24:40,980 --> 01:24:47,980 The tensions will be ratcheted up. What would you do if you were the Israelis and the 971 01:24:47,980 --> 01:24:53,980 president of a country says that they are determined to wipe you off the map, cause your 972 01:24:53,980 --> 01:24:58,980 country a stinking corpse? Now, Senator Obama, without precondition, wants to sit down and 973 01:24:58,980 --> 01:25:04,980 negotiate with them. Without preconditions. That's what he stated. Again, a matter of record. 974 01:25:04,980 --> 01:25:10,980 I want to make sure that the Iranians are put enough, that we put enough pressure on the 975 01:25:10,980 --> 01:25:16,980 Iranians by joining with our allies, imposing significant, tough sanctions to modify their 976 01:25:16,980 --> 01:25:22,980 behavior. And I think we can do that. I think joining with our allies and friends in a league 977 01:25:22,980 --> 01:25:29,980 of democracies, that we can effectively abridge their behavior and hopefully they would 978 01:25:29,980 --> 01:25:34,980 be more independent, this quest that they are on for nuclear weapons. But at the end of the 979 01:25:34,980 --> 01:25:40,980 day, my friend, I have to tell you again, and you know what it's like to serve, and you 980 01:25:40,980 --> 01:25:46,980 know what it's like to sacrifice, but we can never allow a second Holocaust to take place. 981 01:25:46,980 --> 01:25:48,980 Senator Obama. 982 01:25:48,980 --> 01:25:55,980 Well, Terry, first of all, we honor your service and we're grateful for it. We cannot allow 983 01:25:55,980 --> 01:26:01,980 a second Holocaust to be perpetrated by a second-hand, second-hand nuclear weapon. It would be a 984 01:26:01,980 --> 01:26:08,980 game changer in the region. Not only would it threaten Israel, our strongest ally in the 985 01:26:08,980 --> 01:26:15,980 region and one of our strongest allies in the world, but it would also create a possibility 986 01:26:15,980 --> 01:26:20,980 of nuclear weapons falling into the hands of terrorists. So it's unacceptable. And I will do 987 01:26:20,980 --> 01:26:26,980 my best to make sure that we will never take military options off the table, and it is 988 01:26:26,980 --> 01:26:32,980 important that we don't provide veto power to the United Nations or anyone else in acting 989 01:26:32,980 --> 01:26:40,980 in our interests. It is important, though, for us to use all the tools at our disposal 990 01:26:40,980 --> 01:26:45,980 to prevent the scenario where we've got to make those kinds of choices. And that's why 991 01:26:45,980 --> 01:26:52,980 I'm here. If we can work more effectively with other countries, diplomatically, to tighten 992 01:26:52,980 --> 01:26:58,980 sanctions on Iran, if we can reduce our energy consumption through alternative energy so 993 01:26:58,980 --> 01:27:03,980 that Iran has less money, if we can impose the kinds of sanctions that, say, for example, 994 01:27:03,980 --> 01:27:09,980 Iran right now imports gasoline even though it's an oil producer because its oil infrastructure 995 01:27:09,980 --> 01:27:14,980 has broken down, if we can prevent them from importing the gasoline that they need and 996 01:27:14,980 --> 01:27:19,980 the refined petroleum products, that starts changing their cost-benefit analysis. That 997 01:27:19,980 --> 01:27:24,980 starts putting the squeeze on them. Now, it is true, though, that I believe that we should 998 01:27:24,980 --> 01:27:30,980 have direct talks not just with our friends but also with our enemies to deliver a tough, 999 01:27:30,980 --> 01:27:37,980 direct message to Iran that if you don't change your behavior, then there will be dire consequences. 1000 01:27:38,980 --> 01:27:44,980 If you do change your behavior, then it is possible for you to rejoin the community of 1001 01:27:44,980 --> 01:27:49,980 nations. Now, it may not work, but one of the things we've learned is, is that when 1002 01:27:49,980 --> 01:27:55,980 we take that approach, whether it's in North Korea or in Iran, then we have a better chance 1003 01:27:55,980 --> 01:27:59,980 at better outcomes. When President Bush decided we're not going to talk to Iran, we're not 1004 01:27:59,980 --> 01:28:04,980 going to talk to North Korea, you know what happened? Iran went from zero centrifuges 1005 01:28:04,980 --> 01:28:11,980 to develop nuclear weapons to 4,000. North Korea quadrupled its nuclear capability. We've 1006 01:28:11,980 --> 01:28:16,980 got to try to have talks, understanding that we're not taking military options off the 1007 01:28:16,980 --> 01:28:17,980 table. 1008 01:28:17,980 --> 01:28:20,980 MR. ROMNEY. All right, gentlemen, we've come to the last question, and you'll both be interested 1009 01:28:20,980 --> 01:28:23,980 to know. This comes from the Internet, and it's from a state that you're strongly contesting, 1010 01:28:23,980 --> 01:28:29,980 both of you. It's from Peggy in Amherst, New Hampshire. It has a certain Zen-like quality. 1011 01:28:29,980 --> 01:28:36,980 I'll give you a fair warning. She says, what don't you know, and how will you learn it? 1012 01:28:36,980 --> 01:28:39,980 Senator Obama, you get first crack at that. 1013 01:28:39,980 --> 01:28:45,980 THE PRESIDENT. My wife, Michelle, is there, and she could give you a much longer list 1014 01:28:45,980 --> 01:28:52,980 than I do. And most of the time I learn it by asking her. But, look, the nature of the 1015 01:28:52,980 --> 01:28:57,980 challenges that we're going to face are immense. And one of the things that we know about the 1016 01:28:57,980 --> 01:29:03,980 presidency is that it's never the challenges that you expect, it's the challenges that 1017 01:29:03,980 --> 01:29:12,980 you don't, that end up consuming most of your time. But here's what I do know. I know that 1018 01:29:12,980 --> 01:29:19,980 I wouldn't be standing here if it weren't for the fact that this country gave me opportunity. 1019 01:29:19,980 --> 01:29:26,980 I came from very modest means. I had a single mom, and my grandparents raised me, and it 1020 01:29:26,980 --> 01:29:33,980 was because of the help of scholarships and my grandmother's scrimping on things that 1021 01:29:33,980 --> 01:29:38,980 she might have wanted to purchase, and my mom at one point getting food stamps in order 1022 01:29:38,980 --> 01:29:43,980 for us to put food on the table. Despite all that, I was able to go to the best schools 1023 01:29:43,980 --> 01:29:49,980 on Earth. I was able to succeed in a way that I could not have succeeded anywhere else in 1024 01:29:49,980 --> 01:29:53,980 this country. The same is true for Michelle, and I'm sure the same is true for a lot of 1025 01:29:53,980 --> 01:29:58,980 people. And the question in this election is, are we going to pass on that same American 1026 01:29:58,980 --> 01:30:06,980 dream to the next generation? Over the last eight years, we've seen that dream diminish. 1027 01:30:06,980 --> 01:30:11,980 Wages and incomes have gone down. People have lost their health care or are going bankrupt 1028 01:30:11,980 --> 01:30:16,980 because they get sick. We've got young people who've got the grades and the will and the 1029 01:30:16,980 --> 01:30:23,980 drive to go to college, but they just don't have the money. And we can't expect that if 1030 01:30:23,980 --> 01:30:28,980 we do the same things that we've been doing over the last eight years, that somehow we 1031 01:30:28,980 --> 01:30:32,980 are going to have a different outcome. We need fundamental change. That's what's at 1032 01:30:32,980 --> 01:30:38,980 stake in this election. That's the reason I decided to run for President. And I'm hopeful 1033 01:30:38,980 --> 01:30:45,980 that all of you are prepared to continue this extraordinary journey that we call America. 1034 01:30:45,980 --> 01:30:49,980 But we're going to have to have the courage and the sacrifice, the nerve to move in a 1035 01:30:49,980 --> 01:30:51,980 new direction. Thank you. 1036 01:30:51,980 --> 01:30:55,980 Senator McCain, you get the last word. Senator Obama had the opening. Your last thought. 1037 01:30:55,980 --> 01:31:03,980 Well, thank you, Tom. And I think what I don't know is what all of us don't know. And that's 1038 01:31:03,980 --> 01:31:09,980 what's going to happen both here at home and abroad. The challenges that we face are 1039 01:31:09,980 --> 01:31:15,980 unprecedented. Americans are hurting tonight in a way they have not in our generation. 1040 01:31:15,980 --> 01:31:21,980 There are challenges around the world that are new and different. And there will be different. 1041 01:31:21,980 --> 01:31:26,980 We will be talking about countries sometime in the future that we hardly know where they 1042 01:31:26,980 --> 01:31:33,980 are on the map, some Americans. So what I don't know is what the unexpected will be. 1043 01:31:34,980 --> 01:31:39,980 But I have spent my whole life serving this country. I grew up in a family where my father 1044 01:31:39,980 --> 01:31:44,980 was gone most of the time because he was at sea and doing our country's business. My mother 1045 01:31:44,980 --> 01:31:51,980 basically raised our family. I know what it's like in dark times. I know what it's like 1046 01:31:51,980 --> 01:31:58,980 to have to fight to keep one's hope going through difficult times. I know what it's 1047 01:31:59,980 --> 01:32:06,980 like to rely on others for support and courage and love in tough times. I know what it's 1048 01:32:06,980 --> 01:32:11,980 like to have your comrades reach out to you and your neighbors and your fellow citizens 1049 01:32:11,980 --> 01:32:16,980 and pick you up and put you back in the fight. That's what America is all about. I believe 1050 01:32:16,980 --> 01:32:22,980 in this country. I believe in its future. I believe in its greatness. It's been my great 1051 01:32:22,980 --> 01:32:28,980 honor to serve it for many, many years. And I'm asking the American people to give me 1052 01:32:28,980 --> 01:32:35,980 another opportunity. And I'll rest on my record, but I'll also tell you, times are tough. 1053 01:32:35,980 --> 01:32:41,980 We need a steady hand at the tiller. And the great honor of my life was to always put my 1054 01:32:41,980 --> 01:32:43,980 country first. Thank you, Tom. 1055 01:32:43,980 --> 01:32:45,980 Thank you very much, Senator McCain. 1056 01:32:45,980 --> 01:32:50,980 That concludes tonight's debate from here in Nashville. We want to thank our hosts 1057 01:32:50,980 --> 01:32:55,980 here at Belmont University in Nashville and the Commission on Presidential Debates. 1058 01:32:55,980 --> 01:32:58,980 And you're in my way of my script there if you will move. 1059 01:32:58,980 --> 01:33:04,980 In addition to everything else, there is one more presidential debate on Wednesday, 1060 01:33:04,980 --> 01:33:09,980 October 15th at Hofstra University in New York, moderated by my friend Bob Schieffer 1061 01:33:09,980 --> 01:33:14,980 of CBS News. Thank you, Senator McCain. Thank you, Senator Obama. Good night, everyone, 1062 01:33:14,980 --> 01:33:15,980 from Nashville. 1063 01:33:15,980 --> 01:33:16,980 Thank you. 129111

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