All language subtitles for Hold Your Fire (2021) WEBDL-1080p h264 AC3 -AOS

[projector clicking]

[♪]

[♪]

[man]
I had a bad feeling about it.

My wife did. She didn't even
know what we was gonna do.

She begged me not to leave
the house that day.

Got in front of me at the door,
pullin' on me, crying.

I said, "I'll be right back."

That was my last warning.

[traffic noise]

[man 2]
Wintertime. January.

A very cold Friday night.

Two guys walk over to
the counter,

ask me to pick up something
from the bottom shelf,

I don't remember what it was.

I picked it up
and when I stood up,

the guy had a...

.25 automatic pointed at me.

Right on the gun counter
there was

a picture of my daughter
receiving her communion.

I says, "Take it easy,

I want to get home to see
my family tonight."

The little guy had a handgun.

I'm lookin' at the gun
and I'm sayin' to myself

that I thought it was
a pellet gun.

Then he pulls the trigger
and, bang, into--

and into the shelf.

I swore to myself
at that point there

that if I get
a chance to kill ya,
I'm gonna kill ya.

-[indistinct chatter]
-[sirens wailing]

[man on bullhorn]
Come out with your hands up!

[sirens wailing]

[gunshots]

[man on radio]
Okay, hold it!

[man]
Get outta here quick!

[gunshot]

[♪]

[reporter]
A story of violence

inside a sporting goods store
in Brooklyn.

Four terrorists had been
surprised inside the store

on Friday afternoon

when police arrived in response
to a robbery alarm.

[man]
It was a store with
outdoors equipment

the usual camping stuff,

and then the guns.

The guns are what it was
really all about.

They were people
who wanted them,

and they took innocent people
inside the store

and made hostages of them.

[♪]

[man]
Holy crap.

Twelve hostages inside
a sporting goods store

loaded with firearms.

This was the Titanic.

The moon landing.

I'm never gonna forget
the siege.

It's permanently etched
in your-- in your heart

and in your soul.

The lessons learned of this case

were so revolutionary for
law enforcement.

Out of this tragedy,
amazingly,

this is the birthplace of
hostage negotiation.

[man]
It's scary.

So cops usually wind up
overreacting.

Police want to be macho.

Lob in the gas
and storm the place.

"Kill 'em all!
They're all evil."

No. I believe in talking.

Everything is resolvable
by talking.

[Jerry Riccio]
The leader,
he wanted five shotguns.

They gave me a duffel bag.

12-guage ammo in the bag,
I'm filling it up,

filling it up and filling up.

And I turned around,
I said to him, I says,

"Can I ask you a question now?
Who's gonna carry this bag?"

Couldn't even drag it.

He says,
"You just keep filling it."

I filled it up, the guy
grabbed it by the handle.

Can't move it.

You're not too smart.

[♪]

The only thing that stopped them
from gettin' out is

someone outside called the cops.

There was a cop
lookin' in the doorway.

When he seen the rifles,

the guys eyeballs,
I'll never forget it.

[man]
"Call for backup.

"Patrol units responding.

"Call on walkie-talkie.

N-[bleep] with a gun."

This had to be terrifying
for her

to have to go through
something like that.

For my mother to hear
the cop say that.

To fear the cops.

She probably didn't even know

guns was in that building.

She wouldn't have gone in there.

My dad needed a wallet.

John & Al is right when you
come off the train.

My mother paid for it.

Few more seconds,

my mother would have
walked out that door.

The gunmen locked the door right
in front of her face.

That's what it was.

A wallet.

So we had white police officers,
mostly, uh,

on the inner perimeter.

So that might have been
some considerations as well.

We thought we had four members
of the Black Liberation Army

inside the store.

It was a very radical group,

very violent
and dangerous group.

Many police officer
assassinations under their belt.

Emotions are running high.

[man] The BLA was ambushing
the police officers.

You had a blue uniform on,
you were a target.

I was a rookie.

I remember
like it was yesterday.

You're dealing with lowlifes
that don't care.

They hate the police.

No.

They didn't know who we were.

I don't dislike police.

They thought all this
crazy stuff about us.

They thought we were
black revolutionaries.

We were not.

I worked for the Transit,
selling tokens in the booth.

Dawud is a college student,
outstanding artist.

Salih is a TV and
radio repairman.

Mussidiq is a carpenter.

We're not unemployed,
dope fiends,

and thieves and crooks.

We're squares.

I was terrified.

I was like an understudy
to Shu'aib.

You know, he was like
my mentor at the time.

You know.

He was living on his own,
you know, I--

With his wife, you know,
I was still with my mother,

using his situation as
an example to follow.

On the way there, I was hoping
somebody would,

like, just say, okay, like...

maybe we should, like, just
scrap this and like, but, uh--

I didn't-- I couldn't come up
with any, you know,

alternative solution,

so I just, more or less,
went along with it, you know?

[♪]

A lot of regrets.

I observed one police officer
in front of the store.

You don't need to take it
any further, you know,

they're-- they're here,
you know,

we-- we're through.

You know, we should have
surrendered at that time,

but, uh...

my co-defendants tried to make
an exit from the store.

That's when things
went haywire.

[Shu'aib Raheem]
We made that fateful decision.

To get these guns.
To protect our families.

In retrospect,
it was a fool's idea

to think we can get out
the back door.

[door opening]

We opened the door.

[indistinct shouting]

There were cops everywhere.

[indistinct shouting]

Super hyper.
Payin' attention to everybody.

Lookin' there, lookin' there.

Who's the good guy?
Who's the bad guy?

Who do you trust?

How you gonna say,
"Drop the weapon,"

but when you go to drop it,
they tell you,

"Don't move. Freeze.
Drop the weapon.

Don't move. Freeze.
Hand me the gun."

You know, I mean--
What do you do?

I'm ready to surrender.
You won't let me surrender.

That was how we perceived
the situation.

I'm trying to comply,

passing off my rifle
to this detective.

The other officers
interpreted it as a threat

because they told me
not to move.

That's what led to them
firing the first shot.

Does it matter who fired first?

There are some people

that need a damn beating.

You know why?
You can't talk to 'em.

You talk 'til you're
blue in the face.

They want
a physical confrontation.

That's what they want.

And that's their mentality.

And a guy like that
needs his ass kicked.

New York City's always had
a hard, ugly relationship

between the police
and the people--

community of color.

All my life,
police was killing black people.

I know-- I know for a fact...

that cops aren't racist.

Yet, there was this perception

that cops are gonna
brutalize Blacks.

The police were seen
as oppressors.

Corrupt.

Brutal.

[Jack Cambria]
The police officer's stress
is elevated

'cause you're always on.

When emotional levels are up
in-- in a person,

then their rationality level
is down.

It's kinda like
that angle effect.

Emotion. Rationality.

Police officers become,
sometimes, judge, jury,

and, uh, sometimes when
the circumstances, uh,

you know,
present themselves,

executioner.

There's this whiteness
on the police department,

not properly trained,

fearful of being
in neighborhoods

that they're not
accustomed to being in.

And so, in that
sporting goods store,

when they see
a black man in a doorway...

emotions take over.

[gunshots]

[Jerry Riccio]
The cops' bullets are
pockmarking against the building

and I'm sayin', "Oh, my God,
oh, my God,"

like I-- I gotta get hit.

From where they were shooting,
it wasn't...

less than 15 feet.

[gunshots]

When one guy starts shootin',
they all start shootin'.

You're nuts.

Firing away like crazy.

And the little guy
pulls me back,

he steps up and fires.

You could feel the heat
against my ribs.

-[gunshot]
-[traffic noise]

[tires squealing]

[siren wailing]

I reached out
and pulled the door in.

It was a miracle I wasn't hit.

Mussidiq was just standing there
in shock.

I lifted his shirt up.

My hand was covered with blood.

Stomach wound,
there's nothin' you can do.

If he didn't get attention,
he was gonna die.

[gunshots]

[indistinct shouting]

[gunshots]

Bullets was flyin'
all over the store.

All over the store.

The police knew
they were hostages in there

and they-- and they, uh--

they elevated their fire to
above the hostages' heads.

No.

They-- That's the first thing

one of the officers said
afterwards.

"Well, we were shooting high."

I says, "You can tell that
to somebody else,

you can't tell it to me."

The cops know there's customers,

and you're shooting into
the store.

What are they, crazy?

Here's my head.
Here's where the bullet
was hitting.

The police department
won't admit to

a lot of things that they did.

I was with Steve Gilroy.
He was my partner that night.

He was a great guy to be with.

He was behind the L pillar.

[gunshots]

I looked over, I saw Steve
laying on the ground.

[gunshots continue]

He was hit in
the back of his head,
which opened up his skull.

I saw part of his brain
separate from his head.

[crackling]

[clock ticking]

[Al Sheppard]
You grieve for the guy that
gets killed or hurt, God forbid.

And then you want to go
fuck somebody up over it.

The bad guy.

[indistinct chatter]

Anybody in the ghetto knows,
if you shoot a cop,

they're gonna get you.

[police radio chatter]

[sirens wailing]

[Shu'aib Raheem]
Salih found the radio...

and turned it on.

We were all listening to it.

And they said,
"We have four members of
the Black Liberation Army

surrounded inside a store."

Oh, S-H-I-T, that's what.

Oh, crap!

[indistinct radio transmission]

I know
how they were thinkin' now.

They wanted blood.

I was petrified.

But I was gonna experience
something much worse than that.

[static]

We heard it on the radio
that we had inside the store.

[radio announcer]
ABC News, Brooklyn, New York.

What happened here
was a tragedy.

One gunman was wounded,
apparently seriously.

One policeman was killed.

It was a stunned silence
at first.

Then it was...

shock.

Everything changed.

We didn't even know
a cop was even killed.

If you are responsible for
a chain of events

that culminated in the loss
of life of a human being,

there's no way to
replace that life.

I'ma have to carry this sin.

Man, I cried like a baby
in the bathroom.

After he shot him,

I think he said,
"I killed that pig.

"I-- I offed that pig.

If he sticks his head out again,
I'm gonna-- I'm gonna kill him."

And stuck his head out,
shot him.

"I got that pig,
I killed that pig.

Shot him in the head."

[Shu'aib Raheem]
That was never said.

I was talking about
a different officer
who shot at me.

I said, "Man, there's this guy
across the street, hold up."

You know, I-- Pew!
And he took off and ran.

[exhales]

Well, that comment,
"I'm gonna get this guy
behind the pole,"

is what they tried to say,
that the comment was made
when Mr. Gilroy was killed.

I still don't know
how he got hit.

We were hunkered down.

The van blocked
that whole line of sight.

I can only imagine
it was some type of ricochet

or whatever, or friendly fire.

I didn't have the right angle
to see him.

I could only see the bar
called the Oasis.

The cops were shooting
all over the place.

[Shu'aib Raheem]
He was shot in
the side of the head.

Where'd that shot come from?

I don't know...

[sighs]

...what happened.

It don't really matter.

At the end of the day...

really, it doesn't matter.

Because none of that
would have happened

if we hadn't been there.

[♪]

[Al Baker]
It's losing a brother.

It takes a piece of you.

We're always criticized for
the thin blue line,

or the "us and them,"

alienation that others have
towards cops.

You really hate to
discriminate against people

because their not cops,

but you know in your
heart of hearts,

deep down where you live,

they don't get it.

[♪]

You know he's dead now.

You think of yourself,
you think of your family,

you think of his family.

Goes through so fast.

But you know it's over.

It's almost like
the end of the world to you.

[Brian Tuohy]
You could have had
breakfast with him,

and all of a sudden,
he's gone.

Why am I here today?

It could have been me,
but I can't think like that.

Nobody ever said,
"How-- How are you doin'?"

or anything. No.

Today, I would be in a hospital
for a week or so

being talked to.

But yeah, nothing--
nobody even spoke to me at all

about what happened.

[♪]

[Al Sheppard]
The psychological dangers are
much worse than the physical.

It will kill you.
Eat you up.

A lot of cops have PTSD,
alcoholism.

There's so many people I knew
that committed suicide.

[Gerald Lefcourt] The head
of the Intelligence unit said

there's as much as 10 percent
of the police force

that are emotionally unstable.

Which was a shocking thing

for a leader in
the police department to say.

[Jack Cambria]
There's a stigma
for many police officers

to come forward because of
that strong macho image

that we are
expected to portray.

It's a humiliation.

So they would rather
just keep their--

their emotional issues internal,

and we know what happens
with that.

[indistinct chatter]

[man on bullhorn]

[Shu'aib Raheem]
Police were telling us
everything was all right,

no one was hurt.

Lying to us.

Trying to lull us to sleep.

They were gonna kill us
when we walked out the door.

Don't lie. Don't lie.

Crazy people
aren't always stupid.

He knows when
you're full of crap.

Now the trust is gone.

[♪]

[Jerry Riccio]
By that time, you
had another 500 cops.

Angry? Yeah.

If the cops were to burst in,

who are they gonna be
shootin' at?

They wouldn't know where we are.

There was no cop negotiating
comin' up close to the store,

"Look, we'll give you this,
we'll do this for you."

We're all gonna die.

We're gonna shoot it out.

The hostages
were all sittin' in there.

Every time the guy fired a shot,

the black girl named Fonnie
would jump out of her skin.

[stammering] The-- The bang,
the bang, the bang, the bang.

And she would--

Tears were goin'.
Like everybody was cryin'.

I was young, I was 16 years old.

I went into shock from
what I just witnessed.

Gunshots, the glass breaking.

Um...

people, you know--

Yeah, the sounds of gunshots,

uh, people, um, screaming
in the store,

you know, we were-- we were--
we were screaming and...

the gunman who was injured
was holding his abdomen,

moaning in pain.

His clothes were soaked through.

He was bleeding out.

[Jerry Riccio]
The leader comes
over to me and says,

"My man that's hit is in pain.

Give me a rag."

[water running]

They go in the bathroom,
I wet the rag,

and I'm about to put
the rag on the wound,

the little guy picks up the gun
and puts it to my head,

stuck it underneath and...

I went as high as I could.

It doesn't take much for
those triggers to go off.

Your head's gone.

[♪]

I'm tryin' to help ya.

And you're gonna put
a gun to my head?

What kind of a person are you?

He was very impulsive.

Scary at times.

Mussidiq.

A loose cannon.

We was concerned
about him exploding.

[Jack Cambria]
When you get to the
scene as a negotiator,

they're handing off the bomb
that's already--

the fuse is already lit,

so we have to kind of
try to defuse that.

We have an ever evolving
approach

because we learn from
mistakes.

Prior to 1973,
we'd give the hostage taker

a set amount of time
to surrender,

and if they did not,

they would be met with
tactical force.

Guns.

[♪]

The first hostage
negotiation team in the world

was formulated here in the NYPD

based on a series of events.

The first one was
the Attica Prison riots
back in 1971.

[Gerald Lefcourt]
Such oppressive conditions.

There's no question,

there's terrible racism in
the criminal justice system.

Rather than trying to
resolve the crisis

or take down the tensions,

it's about winning
and knockout punches.

It's about destroying
your enemy.

That was Attica.

[man]

[men]

[♪]

[Jack Cambria]
The highest authorities,
all they do is tactics.

And when every problem
is a nail,

then every solution
has to be a hammer.

We're not gonna negotiate.

We're gonna
go through that door.

[whirring]

[♪]

[gunfire]

-[indistinct shouting]
-[clamoring]

[Jack Cambria]
It was a bloodbath.

Forty-three individuals
were killed.

Let's learn from
those past mistakes.

Maybe we shouldn't
do that again.

It didn't work the last time.

One year later,
there was

the Dog Day Afternoon
bank robbery.

[cheering]

Messy, unorganized.
Very dangerous.

It was negotiated from the cuff.

There was no theory behind it.
It was just, uh,

"Hey, come on out."
"No."

"Come on out."

"No."

[no audible dialog]

Then, in September of 1972,

there was the Munich Olympics.

Palestinian guerrillas took
Israeli athletes hostage.

Eleven Israeli athletes
and coaches were killed.

Tragedy.

We have to do something.

This could very well happen here
in New York City.

[birds chirping]

[woman]
Hostage negotiation was
a world problem

that had come under
the microscope

for the NYPD.

And they were saying,
"Here, go fix it."

[Al Baker]
Harvey didn't look like a cop,

he didn't act like a cop.

The least ever macho dude,
the least violent.

He was seen as fruity.

Not a back-slapper,
"let's go for a beer" guy.

Pretty socially incompetent.

Academic, quirky.

Always using a funny story.

He has the Jewish
sense of humor.

He's the consummate Jew.

He was a genius, oddball,
psychobabble kind of guy.

[Harvey Schlossberg]
Distrust.

They were checking on my advice
to make sure it was okay.

Remember, this was all new.

This was all relatively new
at the time.

I was comin' up with
a whole bunch of theories.

All the pressures,

and all the anxieties
that we talk about

which affect the criminal

also affect the cop on the scene
the same exact way.

We have to reduce the anxiety

to get him out of
that panic state.

[clock ticking]

[siren wailing]

[indistinct chatter]

Nobody is certain of
what will happen

in this kind of situation.

Uh, I must say...

[Al Baker]
When Police Commissioner Murphy

got to the scene
that Friday night,

there was a dead cop
two other cops shot.

The question is,
"Can we stop them from
killing the hostages?"

[Harvey Schlossberg]
I was in a different room
than they were.

A half a block away.
A cleaning store.

I was in the room where
you sweat and think,

"What the heck is
gonna happen next?"

[Jack Cambria]
Harvey was a traffic cop.

but he had his PhD
in psychology.

He was called out to the scene.

Inside of a sporting goods store
there's butane, ammunition.

The chief wanted to
throw tear gas inside of
the store,

but Harvey had to, you know,
convince him that

that would not be
the best approach.

You could start a fire with
all that ammunition,

blow up the entire neighborhood.

The police are really worried.

They get angrier.

"Come out with your hands up
or else."

It was the old Wild West.

If you get an open target,
just shoot them.

I told the commissioner,
"You get words going,

then you can calm 'em down."

Hostage negotiating?

Wh-- What are you talkin' about?

We don't-- We don't negotiate
with criminals.

A cop became a cop
for law and order.

Victory.

This is not the time for
a Harvey Schlossberg.

This is a time for surprise,

violence of action,

direct lethal force.

[Al Sheppard]
Hear this rumbling
coming down Broadway.

It's like a dinosaur
rumbling down the street.

Bum-bum-bum-bum-bum-
bum-bum-bum-bum.

And I'm goin',
"What the fuck is that?

Is that what I think it is?"

[rumbling]

[Shu'aib Raheem]
Oh, Lord.

Did anyone committing

what we thought was
a small robbery

ever anticipate

confronting a t--
[chuckles]

a tank?

[rumbling]

They were telling us that
if we didn't come out,

they was gonna drive the tank
right inside the store.

[Harvey Schlossberg]
Oh, no, no, no, no,

that's the worst thing
you can do.

An ultimatum is trying to
frighten them into surrendering,

and most people
in a situation like that

don't get frightened.

-[gunshots]
-That just angers them.

They may go off the deep end.

[gunshots]

[Al Baker]
The bad guys, they're
bouncin' rounds off the tank.

Four guys who just killed a cop
and have 12 people at gunpoint

in a-- in an ammunition-filled
environment,

and you're gonna-- you're gonna
play hardball with them?

I don't think so.

[indistinct chatter]

[police radio chatter]

[man on radio]
It's 2:54 in Midtown.

I'm Drew Scott, WXLO News,

with the top stories
of the hour.

A standoff continues on
the shivering streets

of the Williamsburg section
of Brooklyn

between the cops and robbers
of that sporting goods store.

[♪]

[Jerry Riccio]
The leader comes over to me.

I says,
"Want a cup of coffee?"

He says, "You'd make me
a cup of coffee?

I'm holding you hostage."

I says, "Well,
if you look out the door,

got about 5,000 guys
holdin' you hostage."

And he says,
"I'll have a cup of coffee."

If he was a customer
in the store,

he would have been
a decent character.

I spoke to them straight out.

No neighborhood type
conversation like,
you know, like,

"Hey, bro! You're doin'--"
None of that.

Nobody wants to hear that shit.

I talked to him like I was
talkin' to another person.

Not my bro.

He wasn't my bro.

We're all in a mess down here.

Everybody's cryin',
everybody's separated.

I says, "If you want to keep
an eye on us,

take us upstairs to
the Boy Scout department."

We all go upstairs,
no one knows what I have.

I got a 9mm Smith & Wesson.

Gun's in the desk.

In the dark, I take my keys out.

[mimics coughing]
Cough a little bit, turn it.

[mimics coughing]

Now I got the loaded 9mm.

Who do I shoot first?

The leader.

He would have been the guy

that might have been able to
do something.

The number three guy second.

The quiet guy,
leave him to last,

because if he seen his friends
goin' down,

he would turn to mush.

[Al Baker]
It's an explosive situation.

We want to control
that perimeter.

They had the barricades up,

but people are out there
yelling and screaming.

[crowd noise]

[♪]

[Brian Tuohy]
"Shortly after midnight,
a melee breaks out.

"between police and
a group of 40 youths.

"At least one cop seen
clubbing youths.

Three teenagers arrested,
one bleeding profusely."

"These are revolutionary
brothers in there, man.

Power to the people!"
You know, "Yeah, man, yeah!"

♪ War... ♪

♪ Is coming ♪

♪ I... ♪

♪ Can feel it in the air ♪

[Shu'aib Raheem]
Every time they heard
a shot from the store,

they were cheering.

'Cause we stood up to
the police.

[♪]

♪ Preachers are preachin' ♪

[Al Baker] As a commander,
you're gonna have to factor in

the crowd reaction
if we make entry.

And suspects die,

this thing is gonna end
in a fire-and-brimstone manner.

It's a complete powder keg.

Now what do you do?

Do anything you can
to make a conversation.

You must get them to talk.

But they have a problem.

They ripped the phone wires out.

There's no way to talk.

[Shu'aib Raheem]
They told us to communicate
by flashing lights.

Hit once for "no"
and two for "yes."

Are there people
inside the store?

Bang, bang. Yes.

Are any of your people hurt
and need medical attention?

Yes.

They asked us
to release one girl.

We asked Fonnie Buckner.

[Alice Buckner]
My mother loved to laugh.

Vibrant. Full of life.

Get out there, take her classes,
go to work every day.

I was shocked when she started
buying skirts and dresses.

I'm like,
"Mom, what's goin' on?

She's like, "Got a promotion."

Mm-hm.

For New York Life.
She loved that job.

And they were promoting her.

Until this happened to her.

And once this happened,

it was like...

she went into a shell...

[Rosemary Catalano]
We were behind the cabinet

in the Boy Scout area.

I felt for her,

so I kind of took on the role
to try and keep her calm.

She was crying and shaking

and just could not...

uh, just could not
compose herself.

She was the most afraid.

So just tri--
tried to get her to go.

She refused to go out.

She didn't trust the police.

She wanted to stay with us.

[♪]

[man]

[Shu'aib Raheem]
That's when we sent out

one of the people in the store.

Goin' through my mind inside,

man, I've done everything I can

to try to talk to
you people, man,

come on, man.

Shit's f-ed up, you know?

Give us a chance
to surrender, man.

[clock ticking]

I'm Drew Scott, WXLO News,

with the top stories
of the hour.

The stand off continues between
the cops and robbers

at that sporting goods store.

[indistinct chatter]

[Harvey Schlossberg]
A think tank was formed
at the police headquarters.

Different agencies.

I was there.

Police tend to be conservative.

Nobody wanted change.

They all believed
if you gave me the right gun

with the right bullet,
I can put everybody out.

But I don't think
it works that easy.

That's a Hollywood thing.

[Jack Cambria] Must have been
the hardest thing for Harvey

to change an ingrained
belief system.

These staunch critics.

"Now we're gonna talk?

"To these individuals?

We're not social workers."

The most difficult thing
in the world to change
is a culture.

[indistinct dialog]

[Al Baker]
You take your Pat Murphy.

Notorious book guy.

Liberal, progressive
police commissioner.

Are you following his orders?
Absolutely.

Do you respect him? No.

Very grateful for that.

[Al Baker]
He was hated.
He was a bookworm.

Not a warrior from the ranks.

[Al Sheppard]
He was a pantywaist.

He had no balls.

All prim and proper.

He's puckering his ass

'cause if something
goes down wrong,

he's gonna be holding the bag.

[Harvey Schlossberg]
I didn't think they would
change their attitude.

I truly believe the only reason
they called me

was because they realized
someone has to be responsible.

If it goes bad,

they're gonna blame Harvey.

But I believed
police could actually
influence people,

and get them to do things

without bullying and force
and threats.

I told 'em what I thought.

[Jack Cambria]
The commissioner
agreed with him.

We're not a team of assassins.

Harvey succeeded.

[Al Baker]
Commissioner Murphy
made that decision,

establishing hostage negotiation
as the way forward.

[man]
Commissioner, can you tell us
the sequence of events?

I think
Deputy Commissioner Ward,
who was closest to that,

could say a word about it.

[indistinct chatter]

All right,
the strategy at all times

was to open lines of
communication

with the people on the inside.

I was in the armored
personnel carrier.

[Toni Schlossberg]
Ben Ward heard
Harvey's trainings

He would say, "If Harvey says
to do it the way,

this is what we're going to do.

Harvey would be there to coach.

He would not be
the guy on the phone.

He would guide
what was happening.

[indistinct chatter]

[police radio chatter]

[phone ringing]

I was home with a young baby.

Ben Ward called,

asked would I come out
to Brooklyn.

I was floored
the police wanted me,

their enemy, to help.

I'm a lawyer for people
who are fighting the state.

I had just finished
the Panther 21 case,

which had as a main allegation
blowing up police precincts.

It was a shock.

But then again,
Ben Ward was different.

A black man in the middle
of all of this race conflict,

and he had
an understanding of us.

the Panthers.

I always had
a fond feeling for him.

And I think it was mutual.

[indistinct shouting]

[Al Baker]
Lefcourt was hated.

He was a radical lawyer.

Enemy of the police.

Why are we kowtowing
to these people?

[Al Sheppard]
Friggin' outraged.

Allowing the attorney to come in
and kiss their ass,

and "I'm gonna represent you,"
you know,

and-- and everything's
gonna be hunky-dory,

this'll be okay.

[Gerald Lefcourt]
They asked whether we could

get them to pick up
a walkie-talkie.

[indistinct radio chatter]

[man]
Easy. Easy. Easy.

[man on bullhorn]

[gunshots]

-[man] Okay--
-[gunshots]

[gunshots continue]

Now they want to talk.

They puttin' these
strange people on the speaker.

We weren't in a speakin' mood
because they were in a tank.

I could not believe
I was being fired upon.

[Gerald Lefcourt]
Nothing.

[indistinct chatter]

[♪]

When I went outside
to get the walkie-talkie,

I see more cops

than I've ever seen in my life.

I see people
all on the side streets.

[indistinct chatter]

As soon as I walked out
the door I knew,

I could have
waltzed out of the store.

Escaped.

I thought about it.

I got a family.

Wife.

I thought about my daughter.

It's hard to figure.

Especially if you ran away
and people got killed.

Then you gotta live with that
afterwards.

They said,
"Everybody except for
Rosemary was a minority."

I says, "No, no, no, no.

"What everybody in this store
was, was a human being.

I'm not abandoning
a human being."

[Shu'aib Raheem]
The walkie-talkie was broken.

I guess them throwing it
broke it.

And we threw it back out.

[man on radio]
Everybody stand pat.
Everybody stand pat.

Whatever devices we brought in,

whatever convincing we tried
to do to get them to talk,

none of it was productive.

I don't think we had any idea
who these guys were.

Why they were in there.

[♪]

[Shu'aib Raheem]
Growing up here in Brownsville,
in Brooklyn,

I remember eating
ketchup sandwiches and
drinking sugar water.

We were struggling.

There were
five kids in the house
with Mom and Dad.

You got a lot of table pimps.

We call 'em crumb snatchers,
we were all crumb snatchers.

So there was all--
We was always hungry.

Your first love is Mom.

She was like a mentor,
a teacher.

My father was my hero.

I wanted to be just like him.

And then one day I discovered
that he was not my father.

Just...

sent my self-esteem
into a tailspin.

Began even doubting that
my mom was even my mom.

I said, "What other lies
have y'all told me?

Who am I?

Trust is a big, big thing.

I would have these nightmares
about falling.

I was searching. Oh, my God,
I was searching for

some sense in the world.

I started drinking when I was
about 11 years old.

My 16th birthday,
I drank myself into a coma.

I had...

actually contemplated suicide
before then

because my life was--
had bottomed out.

I was, uh, lost.

For somebody to take hostages,

they're in either psychological
or emotional pain.

I'm absolutely curious about
who the gunman is,

and I'm starting to look for
those kind of clues.

I'm there to listen
and empathize.

I'm his little Jiminy Cricket.

I'm his little conscience.

[Shu'aib Raheem]
I started reading the Koran.

When I took my shahada
with the Sunni community,

I cried tears of joy.

Like looking for
a long lost friend,

and finally meeting him.

Oh, God, there you are.

It made me feel relieved.

Free.

Sane.

For the first time in my life.

Life had meaning.
The world had meaning.

♪ Yeah, yeah, yeah ♪

♪ Yeah ♪

Soon, my life was in danger
because of my faith.

The Nation of Islam.

We were deadly enemies.

♪ Don't mess with people ♪

There's nothing Islamic
about The Nation.

♪ Those other folks stand
and chant... ♪

They believe that
the Black Man is from

the Lost and Found
Nation of Shabazz,

the white man is the devil.

♪ Ain't no lie ♪

This invented mythology.

♪ Yeah ♪

They believe every single word,

and some of them
would kill for it.

Any time you question
their claims,

you are met with threats.

We was having confrontations
all over the city.

Assaults,

firebombing in the mosque
up in Harlem.

One of them tried to
proselytize me.

I say, "You say
the white man is the devil?"

"That's right, brother man."

I said, "But the man
who you worship as Allah,

"his name is
Wallace Fard Mohammed.

"He's a white man.

"And if the white man
is the devil,

that means you're
a devil-worshiper."

Oh, man, he got furious.

"They'll cut out your tongue
for that, brother."

Matter of days,
he came to my house

with about four other men.

"We just wanna talk to you,
brother."

These are the soldiers.

It became clear to me

they were gonna really hurt me
really bad.

And I applied for a gun permit.

The desk sergeant, he says,

"You know we're gonna probably
turn it down anyway.

You don't really need a gun."

"You know, we're Muslims
and we're Sunni,

and Sunni, I--" you know,
and they was like laughing,

"What's the difference?
They all Muslims."

Who cares?

You know, don't confuse me with
someone who gives a crap.

You know? Okay,
so you're a Sunni

and you're Jihadist,

and you got this cause,
that cause.

We weren't certain of who these
Black Muslims were

with these skull caps and
these flowing robes.

We didn't trust them.

We knew that
they didn't trust us.

[Shu'aib Raheem]
My wife hated guns.

I purchased a gun anyway.

But I said, "You have to learn
how to use this.

You never know,
you may need it."

When criticism was leveled
against The Nation of Islam,

they reacted in
some violent ways.

They broke into his apartment
some kind of way.

His wife was in
one of the rooms.

[Shu'aib Raheem]
She was in the bed,
under the covers.

They lifted the window up,
stepped into the bedroom.

She jumped up and pointed at him
and just started shootin',

and he escaped out the window.

[♪]

Oh, God.

She was never the same
after that.

As soon as I came home,
I called the police.

It took them two days
to come to my house.

I asked for a 24 hour guard.

For Black people?
[chuckles]

The police didn't care about us.

We never discriminated
against anybody.

I mean, uh,
I-- I can't tell you how many--

how many Black people
lives I saved.

I think we over--
over-define racism

as, uh, something bad,

when in reality,

we want to be with our own kind.

Yeah, you had the slavery,

but think of how great
America is.

What did I ever do wrong?

I-- I wasn't responsible for
slavery or racism

The only way we're gonna end
the racism

is let people decide
for themselves

who they want to be with.

[Al Sheppard]
Some cops became really,
like, anti-Black,

but, you know, it was more of
an occupying army

than it was of anything else.

An army of occupation
of the ghetto, you know?

And that's been
through the ages.

The Constitution was
flushed down the toilet.

Policing nowadays,
some of them never have been
around Black people.

Everybody is a SWAT member,

they have no communication with
the people on the street.

They just go by in these
smoked out windows and--

More like a Gestapo.

You know, if you can't
get to know the people,

that's not effective policing.

[♪]

[Walter Cronkite]
Here in Washington
this evening,

six persons reported killed
in a wave of violence

including shooting at a home

owned by
Kareem Abdul-Jabar,

the pro basketball star.

[reporter]
Two adults and a child shot,

four children
drowned in a bathtub.

Two other adults, both women,
shot in the head survived.

[Dawud Rahman]
The Nation of Islam
actually killed

a family of Sunni Muslims.

Fear. Panic.

It's the most grotesque--

I mean, despic--
I mean, the-- the news.

They shot a two-year-old baby
in the head.

That was the straw that broke
the camel's back.

Dawud and Salih,

we saw what happened
on the news.

I had one gun
with three bullets.

[chuckles]

.25 automatic.

I wanted a shotgun,
and ammo.

To protect out families
and to stop these maniacs.

That was a terrible decision.

But...

Believe it or not, you
researched it a little bit more,

they wanted five guns.

They could have driven to
Nassau County.

The first one, the leader,

didn't have a--
a criminal record.

He could have bought them
legally.

[clock ticking]

[traffic noise]

[man on radio]
Temperature 27 degrees
in Midtown.

On the scene,
Tom Foty reports.

[Tom Foty]
The standoff continues

in an atmosphere of
uneasy quiet.

One of the gunmen lies wounded
and in critical condition.

The man refuses
all police offers of aid,

and the consensus is
that if he dies

something, what,
nobody will speculate,

will happen.

[indistinct radio chatter]

Mussidiq was thirsty.

He kept sayin',
"Oh, give me water."

And Riccio said,
"Don't give him water.

"That's the worst thing you do

with a gunshot wound to
the stomach."

Then when he started spitting up
green bile fluid,

that mean his bowel
had been ruptured.

And then he was in
and out of consciousness.

We gotta get him outta here.

If they really are attached to
their comrade,

then they're gonna come out
to give him a chance to live.

That was the only
bargaining chip that we had.

[♪]

The real difficult part
is waiting.

[Brian Tuohy]
You're just sittin' back
waiting.

Just biding time with
nothing getting done.

You feel useless.

Officers think
we have to be strong.

Supermen.

You're expected to take action.

But sometimes,
the best thing to do
is nothing at all.

Let emotions wind down.

Those are Harvey's teachings.

He calls it dynamic inactivity.

Well, doing nothing
is certainly doing something,

that's for sure.

[indistinct radio chatter]

[man on radio]

[Harvey Schlossberg]
Around noon time,

another hostage was released

to trade for a doctor.

That's what I look for
in a hostage taker,

that moment of hesitation.

They're finished.

I've got them.
They're mine.

Big breakthrough.

This could get them to
surrender.

This community doctor,

he was told,
"You stand a chance
of being killed.

I give a lot of credit to
the nurse.

That came with him.

She was very brave.

I thought she was sent in there
to distract us

the way she was dressed.

She was distracting,
no doubt.

Whoa!

"Volumptuous."

We said, "Oh, no,
you can't come in here."

We sent her back out
to change clothes.

The doctor, we frisked him.

He didn't have any weapons
on him.

So then we took him to see
Mussidiq.

He was scared.

They held him at gunpoint.

They didn't believe that he was
truly a physician.

[Shu'aib Raheem]
He gave him a painkiller.

Hooked up a makeshift
fluid rack

to hold the saline solution.

They brought the phone in.

A direct line.

We're trying to figure out a way
to end this thing.

[Al Baker]
Getting a phone in
to any hostage taker

is major breakthrough.

Now you're starting to
negotiate.

[Harvey Schlossberg]
What I'm tryin' to do is

to find out what this guy
really needs.

I want you to recognize
I'm a person.

I need love.
I need help.

Freud believed the solution
was inside the person.

Well, obviously,

I wanted to talk to the police.

Conflicted as I was.

Confused.

Angry.

I was looking for a way out.

[Jack Cambria]
Harvey taught me
that anybody can speak.

But the real skill in being
a negotiator is listening.

You have to use
active listening.

Emotional labeling.

Being non-judgmental,
non-threatening.

And when they're yelling and
screaming and insulting,

not accepting that verbal spear
that was just thrown at you.

Deflecting it.

It'll land on the wall
behind you.

They'll be left unarmed
at this point,

and you'll be left uninjured.

It helps in
every aspect of life.

I used to get my best
negotiation practice

when my children were in
their adolescence.

It works at home as well.

[phone ringing]

[Shu'aib Raheem]
When you pick it up, someone
answered right away.

His tone was very stern.

I said, "Well, listen,
we need some--"

"You'll get no assurances,
you just come out."

He just wanted me to
walk out there
and get gunned down.

He was a complete...

Excuse my French
but forgive me,

but there's no other
description.

Asshole.

I stopped talking
and hung the phone up.

We're gonna defend ourself...

to the end.

[♪]

[Alice Buckner]
It's scary.

You're crying, you know,
your mother's in there.

and the neighbors are talkin',

and people in the hallway,

and people comin' up
to check on me.

Early this evening,

a third hostage was released
by the gunmen.

[Alice Buckner]
They kept saying on the TV

they have enough ammunition to
hold these people for a week,

and I don't know what's
happening at the store.

My mother's not home.

And she's not home.

[♪]

[Dawud Rahman]
I was, like, filled with dread.

I was suggesting that
we try and clear up

the-- the mess in the store,
you know,

but, uh, that was like

a naive, uh, suggestion,
you know, uh...

[Shu'aib Raheem]
Dawud was in shock.

He had never been exposed to
anything like that.

I can see the fear in his face.

I was looking at Dawud
and Salih, my friends.

Their lives had been
so tragically affected.

I was in a position to stop it,
and I didn't stop it.

I...

pushed forward
and they followed.

Went along with it.
It's not a good feeling.

Miserable feeling.

I have basically
a shy demeanor.

I even consider myself like a...

a self-diagnosed, uh,

Asperger's-- [chuckles]

You know, uh, syndrome.

[Shu'aib Raheem]
He was going to
Brooklyn College.

He was a street sketcher.

He would sketch
people's photograph

for five, ten dollars.

And... [exhales]
with pencil and charcoal.

That's how good he was.

He could look at you and just...
do it like that.

And people would pay him
for that.

But what was phenomenal
about him was his...

He could blow that horn.
Lord have mercy. Mm!

He would practice...

[call to prayer sounding]

[man chanting]

[Jerry Riccio]
The quiet guy,

he put himself in harm's way.

He sat down next to me with
a weight right over his head

and I could have easily
killed him with it.

I nudged Cleve, I says,

"I'll put it right in his head."

He was my gun guy.

Cleve was a good guy.

He had a glass eye.

He was like a weird look--
especially with that--

the glass eye,
it wasn't the best--

wasn't the best job
in the world.

I was in the service.

I had a machine gun squad.

I says, "Who do you think
the most dangerous guy
in the store is?"

He says, "Them."
I said, "No. Me."

[Rosemary Catalano]
I don't think that they believed
they could get out alive.

It was a total stalemate.

Botched robbery,
killed a police officer.

It wasn't gonna end there.

They weren't gonna
walk out quietly.

[Harvey Schlossberg]
This is intense
hostage negotiation.

Am I gonna say the wrong thing,

and the person who is
a mild problem

all of a sudden becomes a rage.

God forbid,
if somebody gets killed,

you're gonna blame yourself.

Harvey is enormously tuned in
to emotions.

whether they be his or
the people that are around him.

He's the product of
a very sensitive mother
and grandmother.

His grandmother came from
Russia to be safe.

The pogroms,

they would surround
the Jewish communities
and kill people.

Jews have experienced
lots of suffering

and psychological pain.

I have a need to
make people better.

That's a crazy need.

[♪]

[Jerry Riccio]
How do you get out of the store?

Twelve people aren't
running down the stairs

and out the door.

I took out my pocket knife.

Watching them, I could keep
my arm behind the wall,

and draw the line with
the knife,

down, across, up,
down, across, up.

The little white dust
would fall on the floor,

I would smooth it out
with my foot.

Took a long time.

The people that were
sitting against the wall,

terrified, tears.

I can't tell 'em
what my intentions were.

I didn't want anybody
blurting out any information

out of fear.

"Let me go and I'll tell you
what they're up to.

He's got a gun.
He cut a hole out in the wall."

You-- You're nervous.

The gun is in your waist.

I don't know
what's gonna happen.

The leader comes over to me.

I put my hand on the gun.
I don't have to take it out,

I could shoot him
right through the coat.

I went over there and I see
some men behind the counter.

I said,
"What the hell are you doin'?
Get your ass out of here."

You know, "Get your butt
back on the other side."

Riccio was one of 'em,
I said, "Man, I told you--"

He said, "All right,
all right, all right.

It's not that easy
to kill anybody.

And people turn around
and say to you, "He's black,"
this, that.

It's not easy to kill anybody.

[♪]

[Shu'aib Raheem]
I was layin' down upstairs

trying to figure out
how'd I get in this mess?

Why did I do this?
Why, why, why?

Takes a lot for a man to say
"I'm afraid."

You know how we are as men.

Hard enough to even
talk about feelings.

Fear is what drove me
every minute I was in there,

that I was afraid to come out.

Scared to death of
what might happen.

Fear, fear, fear,
you know, it's-- it's--

it's crippling.

A gun don't make you a man.

At the end of the day,

doesn't make you safe.

Don't be afraid.

[sniffles]

[Jerry Riccio]
The hostages were terrified.

The black girl named Fonnie,
tears were goin',

shook her up so badly.

When I go to get one of
the walkie-talkies,

I'm asking for Kotex.

Fonnie had gotten her period
in the store.

[♪]

And I really believe that that's
when she had her miscarriage

'cause she was pregnant.

That was enough to send it
over the edge as far as...

this baby was not making it.

Oh, my God! Oh, my God!
Lord have mercy.

[muttering in Arabic]

I'm so sorry to hear that.

She had the nervous breakdown.

Never really came out of it.

Not sleeping at night.

Medication is rippin' up
your body on the inside.

You don't want to do anything.

And you still have a family
you need to feed and maintain.

I'm an only child,
just me and her.

My parents separated
right after this happened.

[Alice Buckner]
I feel like I lost
both my parents.

[sniffling]

They have no idea what they
put people through.

People who are injured
and hurt and suffer,

even oppressed,

can become blinded by
their own hurt,

and destroy the lives
of so many people

who did you no harm.

That's the tragedy of it all.

When the victim becomes
that which they fear.

[♪]

[traffic noise]

[clock ticking]

-[gunshot]
-[indistinct dialog]

[gunshot]

[indistinct chatter]

[gunshot]

[police radio chatter]

[gunshot]

[indistinct chatter]

[Brian Tuohy]
Four blasts of gunfire.

Maybe they killed the hostages.

-[coughing]
-Where's your plan?

What plan do you have now that
they're killing the hostages?

If I was the commanding officer,

I would have taken action
against them.

Probably with snipers.

If you don't fight
fire with fire,
you're never gonna win.

[♪]

[gunshot]

Just move one finger,
just move a pinkie,

just give me
a reason to kill you,

and I will do it gladly.

We go back to the coffee table
and laugh about it.

"We killed a guy. Yeah, Yeah,
it had a happy ending.

And you ended up dead.
So, ha, ha."

[reporter]
The situation here in Brooklyn

has gotten much more tense in
the last few moments.

-[gunshot]
-We heard nine or six shots

ring out from
the sporting goods store.

[police radio chatter]

[♪]

[man on radio]
Where are the hostages now?

The railing that went
around the store

on the second floor,

they had all the guns lined up.

They loaded them all
so that if anybody came in,

they wouldn't have to stop
to re-load.

Now the gunmen come upstairs,
they brought the hose up,

He says, "Take off your clothes,
we're gonna wash you.

We're gonna die,
you gotta go to Allah clean."

Maybe they were gonna kill me.

Maybe the cops
shooting in the store
were gonna kill me.

They don't look at the shape
over the desk.

That's a staircase going up.

If you put a knife against
a sheet rock wall,

it doesn't make any noise.

I felt the knife go through.

And then I pulled
the piece out...

and put it back in.

We have the escape plan made.

[indistinct chatter]

-[man] Whoever's gonna begin--
-All right, I'm gonna begin it,

but I cant begin it because
I'm being squeezed.

-Give me a little room.
-[man] Move back, please.

Help out a little bit, will ya?
Back up. Come on.

-Give us a little room.
-[man 2] All right.

[Benjamin Ward]
This morning, as you know,

there were
several gunshots fired,

and they informed us that they
merely wanted to let us to know

that they were still there.

We immediately spoke to them
on the phone and we told them

we knew that they were there.

[man] Have you made any decision
as to a time limit?

I-- I could just say this
to you, we have plenty of time,

and we have not made
any decisions on time.

[indistinct chatter]

[Al Baker]
The Harvey school of
psychology is

you're lookin' to find that key
that opens that lock.

to that guy's head.

[indistinct bullhorn
announcement]

My mother?

[continues indistinctly]

"Son, Ib'n, salaam alaikum,
baby, come out.

It's gonna be okay,
they're not gonna hurt you."

[Gloria Robinson
continues indistinctly]

[Harvey Schlossberg]
Family. I usually tell--

I-- Don't bring them in.

If they had a healthy family,

they wouldn't be in here.

[Shu'aib Raheem]
I used to have conversations
with my mother that

that was, like, deep.

She would be up all night
reading.

History, science, philosophy.

She was like a mentor,
a teacher.

She was fragile.

She was an alcoholic.

And I used to get very defensive
and angry with her

when she was criticizing me.

I thought she was naive.

They were just trying to use her
to get me to come out.

To get shot.

When I fired the shots at
the tank, she knew.

She didn't try to
talk to me anymore.

She was so-- I broke her heart,
Lord have mercy.

[♪]

We started hearing them--
[buzzing]

They comin' through the wall
in the basement

while they talking

so nice on the phone.

The radio told us that
the police was on the roof.

The place was surrounded.

We heard this big helicopter.

Hundreds of police.

They got this special team
they put together,

they gettin' ready to come in
and storm the store,

and you givin' me these niceties
over the phone?

You're lying, man.

[indistinct chatter]

[man on bullhorn]
They say that they are gonna
die in that building

and they want us to
come in and get them.

[♪]

[Al Baker]
The perps certainly
had evil intent.

Violence. Hate.

Kill the hostages.

Go out in a blaze of glory.

We didn't want to go out in
a blaze of glory.

But, hell, if you're gonna
execute me...

and I got all these guns
in here,

what do you think
I'm gonna do?

I'm gonna defend myself.

[whistle]

[Jerry Riccio]
All of a sudden,

I heard what appeared to be
a whistle.

[whistle]

This is it, they're
gettin' ready to come in.

This is it. We just kept sayin',
"This is it, this is it."

We went downstairs,
listened to the basement door.

[Jerry Riccio]
They all ran down the stairs,

left us alone.

Well... that's the chance
you gotta take.

I gave Cleve my gun.

I told him everybody had to
go through the hole.

[Alice Buckner]
My mom was cryin', bad.

Cleve took one look at her
and said,

"If I don't help her,
she's gonna get us killed."

Pull yourself together,
get your tissue,

stop cryin',

and let's go so we can
get out of here.

[Rosemary Catalano]
The adrenaline's pumpin'.

Just go.

There's debris on the stairs,

and Jerry says to Cleve,

"I told you to clean
the staircase."

[laughing]

[Jerry Riccio]
Everybody had to
go through the hole.

"Okay, Cleve.
Hold onto the gun."

[Al Baker]
We have people on the roof
to help contain the perimeter.

We had the Smith & Wesson
Model 76 submachine gun.

If the perps come out
blasting at the cops,

you're gonna have to
return fire.

Hatch opens up, out comes
a Black man with a gun,

and Casey and the team
point their guns at him.

[♪]

Cleve's holding my handgun.

"There's a handgun comin' up.

It's mine, I got a permit
for it. Don't shoot!"

Harvey taught it's important for
the police officers

to hold back and not fire,

because once one officer fires,

it's really a domino effect.

Hormones such as testosterone
kick into play

and push men to do things.

What a disaster.

Holding your fire is what
negotiation is about.

Now, why that particular guy

popped open the hatch
with a gun in his hand...

defies my logic.

And it turns out,
he was an escaping hostage.

Police were able to
understand that.

Damn good weapons restraint.

A very remarkable escape.

[♪]

[♪]

We're done. We're finished.
We're not hostages anymore.

[♪]

[reporter]
Officers ran the hostages
to cars outside...

-...the line of fire.
-There I am. Oh, my gosh.

[reporter]
The hostages
broke through the wall

-and raced to
the roof of the store.
-Oh, my God.

The police then got them
off the roof,

and finally took them away.

Wow.

[clock ticking]

[Shu'aib Raheem]
I walked over there
and it was quiet.

I walked a little further
and I seen this hole,

and I said, "Oh, sh--"

Whoo!

[Al Baker]
The suspects
lost their collateral.

That must have been
when they realized,

"We're mince meat now.
We're dead."

I guess it's all over now,
you know?

Seeing a corpse,
I feel like crying.

It really affects me.

I think a human life
is such a precious gift.

You seen where the guy was?

[Harvey Schlossberg]
The crowd, they become angry.

Don't give me all that bullshit.

[Harvey Schlossberg]
"Stay out. Don't kill them."

The crowd got out of hand.

[♪]

[reporter]
An ugly scene

in which police are just
trying their best

to keep them out of the area
that they have barricaded off.

In the meantime,

we have got all kinds of
missiles being thrown.

Probably even bricks
but definitely glass

as hundreds of people
are running

in every which direction.

[Al Sheppard]
Molotov cocktails, bricks,

they pushed the barricades over.

The shit's hittin' the fan.

You might have a massacre
on your hands.

America's built on violence.

And guns.

That's-- That's our nature.

John Wayne, Hopalong Cassidy,
uh, cowboys and Indians.

It's always-- You know,
we're a violent country.

And we were built on violence.

And it's unfortunate.

[indistinct chatter]

[reporter]
As we look around,
police are massing,

and some kind of move against
the sporting goods store

seems to be upcoming.

[indistinct chatter]

[man on bullhorn]
The gunmen stated they are
gonna die in that building

and they want us to
come in and get them.

[Shu'aib Raheem]
At the darkest moment
of my life,

I had went so far out of bounds
of right and wrong

that I didn't see
no way back for me.

[Harvey Schlossberg]
People think in
a train of thought.

One thought
pulls the next thought
pulls the next thought.

I'm the thought interrupter.

I told the commanders,

"No, I'm not a person
who kills other people.

I want them out alive."

Hold your fire.

It was just us in there.

And still they didn't storm
the store.

[Al Baker] Even though we all
bleed blue for poor Steve,

let's use our minds, let's use
our hearts and souls

and let's fix this problem

before it gets to
the violent stage.

It's an internal strength,

the opposite of the external,
explosive strength.

That's true manhood.

Violence is a weakness.

[Shu'aib Raheem]
"Please, reconnect the phone."

So Salih reconnected it,
and I said,

"Well, okay. Let's talk."

Benjamin Ward was more calm.

He was Black, he understood
our fears of the police.

Hey! Back!

Hey! Come on!

[Shu'aib Raheem]
We also got that assurance

that they wouldn't try to
beat us to death,

exact this retribution
which they were known for.

We then spent a couple of hours

in just dialog on the telephone

to peck away at their philosophy

that the way to paradise

was to die inside of
that building.

And make them see
if they had a story to tell,

if there was a message
to come out of what they did,

that they would have to
remain alive.

[indistinct radio transission]

They may want to commit suicide

and get the police officer
to do it for them.

The surrender ritual
is the most critical part.

Nobody really knows what
the next move is gonna be.

[indistinct chatter]

[♪]

[Shu'aib Raheem]
They wanted me
and nobody else...

to lay down my weapons

Walking out there
literally exposed.

[police radio chatter]

I had to trust them.

[man]

Benjamin Ward
actually walked down

and stood in front of the store.

Held his hands out and showed
that he was unarmed.

[man]

[Shu'aib Raheem]
I surrendered to him.

It was over.

[Gerald Lefcourt]
Once the terrible shooting of
the police officers occurred,

the leadership in
the police department

did all the right things.

Negotiations...

rather than force.

We realized these guys
didn't want to be there.

They got caught in a robbery,

and they were forced back,

and they were forced into
a hostage situation.

What experience
have they ever had

with the police?

It's all been negative.
You know.

All of their brethren have
either been arrested or beat up

or mistreated or abused.

Uh, you know, cops
aren't known historically

for being the most kindest,
gentlest people.

It was revolutionary to diffuse
a deadly situation.

That's now your responsibility
as a cop.

We started to transcend
street justice.

[reporter]
Were you one of the hostages?

Sir, can you tell us
what it was like inside there?

Can you say anything?
Was your life threatened at all?

[indistinct yelling]

[♪]

[camera shutters clicking]

It's a Muslim name.
I can't pronounce it.

[laughter]

Shu'aib Abdul Rhaheem.

Alias, Shu'aib Abdul Al Raheem.

[indistinct dialog]

[detective]
Attempted murder, robbery.

[♪]

[Shu'aib Raheem]
First one in my family
to go to prison.

I hurt my family.

[♪]

[Jerry Riccio]
The quiet guy didn't do anything

to make himself look like
a bad guy.

Putting him in prison with
hardcore bad guys

would have been the wrong thing.

[interviewer]
He's still in prison.

Maximum security.

Oh...

I--

You're sure, right? Right?

Whew.

The last guy in the world
I'd think maximum security.

I'm trying to put
all of this behind me.

You know what I'm saying?
Because like, uh,

I regret it all.

The fact that I participated
in this incident

you know, it--
I had to pay for it.

Forty-six years, I feel like
I've done my time.

I would like to be able to,
you know,

have, uh, some type of life
after this.

He wasn't the bad guy.

I don't think,

other than that little guy
that got shot,

I don't think any of 'em
were bad.

[Shu'aib Raheem]
In prison, you come face to face
with your demons.

People would suddenly become
very religious and spiritual.

What's driving them is their
sense of shame and guilt.

Their quest for forgiveness.

The ministers say,
"God forgive you."

It's not quite that simple.

You gotta walk back through
every bad decision,

every person you hurt.

Riccio didn't deserve me
putting a gun in his face.

My religion forbids that.

Police officers out there
doin' their job,

to even fire a weapon
in that direction was wrong.

Your sins. Face them.

It repulses you.

And until it repulses you,

you haven't really
confronted it.

I got a master's degree from
New York Theological Seminary

in Pastoral Counseling,

so I have the training
being the chaplain's aides
in prisons.

For over 35 years,

we were like the mediators,
we created the peace.

It-- It's--
It's very, um, uh...

meaningful.

It's very important that
he has come to

this level of understanding.

Should he be forgiven?

By God?

Yeah. He should be.

He should be forgiven.

It's not up to me to decide
whether he gets forgiven or not.

I don't forgive him.

Killing a cop is unforgivable.

That-- I-- I firmly believe
that he should have been

tried and convicted
of Steve Gilroy's murder

and he should have been
put to death.

I made a vow and a promise
that when I come home,

I'm gonna tackle this prison
industrial complex

by trying to stem the tide
of young people

even going to prison.

The children in this area are
suffering from PTSD

because of the violence.

You don't have to become that
which was done to you.

[♪]

[Jack Cambria]
The police department,
in general

doesn't know who he is.

The general public
doesn't know who he is.

But, very slowly,

police culture
started to change.

The NYPD is the birthplace.

Today, almost every
police agency in the world

has a version of
a hostage negotiation team.

[man] I want to get you
the help you need...

[Jack Cambria]
That's all the foundation
that Harvey put in place.

As long as it takes
for them to say,
"I had enough."

[Shu'aib Raheem]
I don't know
Mr. Harvey Schlossberg

but he saved my life.

my co-defendant's life,

and all the people in the store.

[Harvey Schlossberg]
People do change.

Human life, sacred.

It really is.

[♪]

[♪]

[♪]

To have listeners again

that feels good.

[♪]

[♪]