Original subtitles

Mickey: This week on "The Core,"

Rodney Ascher, purveyor of nightmarish documentaries,

dissects what scares us from childhood to now.

We've also got a doctor in the house

to get into the science of sleep paralysis.

And if that doesn't scare you,

Sam Zimmerman's Shudder recommendations definitely will.

Can't believe they kept these stupid sheets.

Justice Society?

Not since I was 8.

Fuck you.

You don't own me anymore.

I'm a grown-ass man.

Mom?

Dad?

Aaaahh!

Aaaah!

Aaah!

Mickey: Today we're talking to horror documentary filmmaker

Rodney Ascher.

In "Room 237," he dives head first

into conspiracy theories

surrounding Stanley Kubrick's "The Shining."

And in "The Nightmare," he exposes

the horrors of sleep paralysis.

Ascher's horrors are the most sinister of all.

They're imprinted on us, they live in us, they start at birth.

When we grow up, do our fears grow up, as well?

Let's find out.

Mr. Rodney Ascher, thank you so much for coming.

Sure thing.You've made a career so far of doing something

that not a lot of other people have done,

which are these kind of horror documentaries.

Let's talk about "Room 237"...

Okay. ...and just the inception of it.

Was it a long form kind of thing,

or did it one day just hit you and say, "I want to make this.

This is my next film"?

Well, it was a couple of things.

I mean, first, I had done a short,

like, maybe two years before

called "The S from Hell."

"The S from Hell" was about people

who had a childhood phobia of the Screen Gems logo.Mm-hmm.

Which is in a style of first-person subjective takes.

It's made it more of a trip into somebody's head

instead of, you know, a look at somebody

to bring to life subjective states of mind.Mm-hmm.

So I wanted to go farther down that track.

A friend of mine, Tim Kirk,

came across an essay about the notion

that Stanley Kubrick faked the moon landing.Mm-hmm.

"Room 237" represents the moon landing stage where he worked.

As I read the essay and how it posited the idea

that "The Shining" was his confession,

very quickly we found out

that that story was just the tip of the iceberg.

Sure. That there's a whole world of people

digging through "The Shining" looking for clues.

Man: That movie was about the genocide

of the American Indians.

Man #2: A deeply laid subtext that takes on the Holocaust.

Woman: Jack is the Minotaur.

Something that's so fascinating about this film

particularly is just the aesthetic

that you used throughout

where, you know, you don't have the talking heads.

What kind of dictated this artistic choice

to tell the movie and the story this way?

Well, some of that, you know, came from "The S from Hell,"

because I, you know, made that movie for about 50 cents.

If I was gonna interview people in other states,

I had to do it remotely.Right.

So that movie was all driven on Skype interviews.

And then in -- in "237," as well, just hearing voices

makes it kind of more internal.

Man #3: Danny's playing with his trucks, and he stands up

and he's wearing the Apollo 11 sweater

with the rocket taking off.

Then I knew I had nabbed it,

and every line began ringing true.

So, it both pushed me harder to find footage

that would kind of evoke what they're saying, and --

or sometimes, you know, be kind of a counterpoint.

But I also just love movies that are built on archives.

Man #2: You are not seeing troops storming Normandy.

You're seeing troops storming a beach in Hollywood.

We used to call that found-footage films

before "Paranormal Activity"

when it was footage that the filmmaker found.

And when you bring it to your aesthetic

and that subject matter, it -- it is kind of creepy.

And speaking of creepy, "The Nightmare"

scared the hell out of people.

Feels like somebody's screaming right in your ear.

Um, like they're right here and they're screaming.

I talked to so many people who are like,

"That's the scariest fucking movie I've seen in a long time."

Did you anticipate that kind of a reaction?

Well, I mean, it was always gonna be creepy and eerie...Yeah.

...because, you know, people are talking about sleep paralysis

and the nightmare experiences they have in the borderlands

between waking and dreaming.

I would feel this presence right next to me

trying to take my soul out.

For me personally, why I find that movie so creepy

is that you don't really go too far

into the scientific aspect of it.

Talk to me a little bit about the artistic decision

to go that route.

I kind of thought what my style kind of lends itself

to is getting into the heads of these people

who are telling their stories who went through this stuff

more than doing a roundup of the latest

medical, psychological, neurological, um, trends...Mm-hmm.

in sleep studies. Right.

It's one of my theories that I don't know

how to visualize a demon because that's not --

that's not a thing that my brain can -- can interpret.

Have you ever had any individual experiences

with sleep paralysis?

There's one that happened to me

probably 20 years ago now where, you know,

I woke up in the middle of the night

and I couldn't move, I couldn't make a noise,

and I became aware of, you know,

somehow magically became aware

that there was sort of a spirit in the woods in our backyard

walking slowly towards the house.

And I kind of thought that my experience

of not being able to move, he was causing it.

That it was, you know, like a power

that he had to keep me at bay

as he was coming towards me.

I had never heard of sleep paralysis.

I was like, "Oh, I don't know

what happened that night."

It was a horrifying supernatural experience,

and I need to mend my ways to make sure

that that doesn't happen again.

One of the big open questions for me

is why people see things

or why they see what they see.

Why people see similar things, you know, remains a mystery.

Yeah. There's a handful of, you know,

sort of characters that people commonly see in sleep paralysis.

There's the shadow man.

Hat man.

There's a halfway credible argument

you can make that it's responsible

for a lot of superstition in folklore

which led to horror movies.Mm-hmm.

What if they made a monster in their dreams?

Then what?

"Nightmare on Elm Street"

was clearly inspired by sleep paralysis.

Mm-hmm. There's interviews with Wes Craven

where he talks about reading a newspaper article

about these Laotian immigrants who are dying in their sleep,

like, between the late '70s, early '80s.

A lot of them had come from Laos to the U.S.

after the Vietnam War.

Over 100 of them died, you know,

within the space of a couple of years.

They actually have a spirit in their folk culture,

the Dab Tsong,

that comes for you in your sleep and presses on you.

Nope.

So they would stay awake to try to keep it from coming,

but there was also --

a lot of them had some congenital heart defects,

so it's like this perfect storm.

And, of course, you know, at the time,

nobody was able to put those pieces together.

Right.

You know, some filmmakers really wear

their influence on their sleeve,

but with you, it's a little bit more of a mystery,

and so I'd really love to hear

about the things that influence you as a filmmaker.

Now, Bruce Conner -- in his movie "A Movie"...

Yeah! ...is kind of the one that started it all.

You know, a whole world of mash-ups and remixes --

the power of, you know, of montage, of...

-Yeah. -...transformative

use of archival footage,

and a lot of that stuff can be traced back,

you know, to this project.

The idea of being able to use "The end"

in the middle of your movie... Right.

...is such a radical, big thought

that would not occur to a conventional filmmaker.

Trying to find connections from shot to shot

that might not have been created originally to go together,

but you look close enough,

and connections start to manifest.

"The Kid Stays in the Picture," the Robert Evans movie --

Oh, my gosh, this made just a gigantic impression on me.

The bigger conceptual idea about this movie --

It's only narrated by Robert Evans.

'Cause, David, I think I have the next big book.

It's called "The Detective."

And it's his account of his adventures in Paramount Studio

and producing "Rosemary's Baby" and all these classic movies.

There's a part of it where he talks about fighting

with Francis Ford Coppola

in the making of "The Godfather."

Another filmmaker would have gone

to Francis Ford Coppola

and said, "Hey, is that how it went down?

Do you agree with what Robert Evans said,"

and that's not what this movie is about.

This movie is a funhouse tour through Robert Evans' head,

and what I'm trying to do in my own projects

is to get you to look at the world

through the eyes of the people

who are telling their stories.

Okay, well, "The Thin Blue Line" --

Errol Morris' movie -- we look at this crime scene

from like 15 different directions.

We see it get recreated later from witness after witness

after witness who become increasingly unreliable,

and he films their subjective accounts of the story.

He's not filming those scenes

in order to illustrate what happened,

he films them to illustrate what couldn't have happened.

I like to try to explore things

that may or may not have happened,

depending on how much you believe

from the, uh, person telling the story.

"Land of the Lost."

Yeah, "Land of the Lost" --

This one goes back to my early exposure to black voids.

It's like a whole inter-dimensional portal in here.

She's, like, in another universe.

It's like a cosmic H.P. Lovecraftian abyss.

I can definitely see the influence.

It's very "Nightmare."

You would have seen more of an influence

if I had dug this up, uh, when researching it.

'Cause it's really bothering me.

Well, thanks for sharing those.

Some of -- That stuff leaves a mark.

And I can definitely see the influence on --

on your works, too.

"The Nightmare" addresses the idea of nature versus nurture

and whether our childhood fears can affect our nightmares.

And so I was wondering if you had any childhood fears

that dictated the way that you have nightmares,

the way that you dream.

I remember, you know, a lot of shows that frightened me

or sometimes just kind of confused me.

I remember, you know, staying up late one night

and watching an episode of "Lost in Space"

that I still kind of love and dread,

you know, kind of equally --

one where they were on some alien planet,

and Penny discovers this magic engraved mirror,

like, out in the woods.

Penny: ...where you got this.

Come on. Take me there.

And she falls into it.

Oh! And then, on the other side,

there's, like, this black abyss

that just goes off into infinity in every direction.

I've been in love with black voids ever since.

And, like, there's black voids sometimes

just as graphic patterns

in -- in th-- in the back of shots,

but it all goes to an unstable world.

I remember, you know, staying up late one night

and watching an episode of "That's Incredible!"...

Man: That's incredible!

...which was kind of an early magazine show

where the people'd do stunts and kind of

like a "Guinness Book of World Records" type thing.

And there was one stunt that was horrible.

It's just horrible.

One of the worst things I've ever seen in my life

where they built, like, this tunnel of fire.

And a stunt man was going to run through.

I don't know -- It must've been like a 30-foot tunnel of fire.

And he had some kind of safety suit,

and there was a lot of build-up, you know,

and, like, he would look at it, and they'd get close,

and there was a commercial break.

Then they'd cut back, and he'd get ready to do it

and get ready to do it.

And then, when the time came, he ran through,

and he comes out, and he's mostly okay,

but the horrible part was he gets up,

and he staggers back,

and he runs back into the tunnel.

It scared the hell out of me as a kid,

the idea that, you know, he went through hell

and it changed him fundamentally.

He was heading into oblivion willingly.

That idea of being an agent of your own destruction --

that was new and terrifying,

and it's still disturbing to me, you know,

stories about people who meet their troubles halfway.

Right. Right. And so I was wondering

what your childhood self would say if he stumbled upon

one of your terrifying documentaries.

So, I'm going to make scary movies when I grow up?

Well, it's complicated. More like...

movies about scary movies that are a little scary themselves.

Oh, so you mean metatextural essay films

about our two-way relationship with genre movies.

Exactly.

As Rodney showed us with "The Nightmare,"

there are very few things

that can affect your state of mind like sleep.

Take away sleep, you take away your efficacy,

your mood control,

and maybe even your mind itself.

So who can we turn to when talking about

something like this?

Well, sleep expert Raj Dasgupta

might have a few answers.

Dr. Raj, thank you so much for joining me today.

You're very welcome, Mickey. How can I help you today?

Let's just talk all things sleep paralysis.

Oh, you got it. So, when I think about sleep,

I put it in two broad stages --

non-R.E.M. and R.E.M. Mm-hmm.

So, when you think about non-R.E.M. sleep,

you have your three stages, and, you know,

it's stage one, two, and three.

Then you have R.E.M. by itself.

And R.E.M. stands for "rapid eye movement,"

so your eyes work, but everything else,

you're paralyzed. There's a disconnect

between your brain and your body.

So you're actually awake, but your body

is stuck in R.E.M. sleep.

So, let me tell you about my experience.

I remember, I was laying in bed.

I could feel that I was awake, but I was looking,

and I couldn't move my body. Right.

This has only happened once,

and all of a sudden, out of the corner of my eye,

I could see something standing there,

and it just got closer and closer,

and it was this smiling face. Yeah.

And it got as close to me as here... Right.

...and I couldn't scream. Is that very common --

Is that --That's your manifestation,

but there's certain things

that just bind it all together.

Number one, you're awake.Yeah.

And you wanna move, but you feel like you can't.

Yeah. Next thing you know, there's always --

what happens is your brain goes to this hyper-aroused state.

You know what I mean? It wants to wake you up.

So, what does it do?

It manifests things that will dry to scare you awake --

a shadow in the window, someone in the hallway,

someone coming up to you.

But you can't do anything.

Seconds seem like minutes.

Minutes seem like hours.

So, someone just kind of, like,

broke the hourglass, stand still. Yeah.

I'm very curious, and I think what was so interesting about

"The Nightmare" was, across so many cultures,

across -- all across the world,

people seem to see the same thing.

-Yeah, exactly. -Why do you think that is?

I think we all have that special place in our mind

that knows what scares us.

And I think there's a common ground over there.

And I can't say that this one picture

will translate across centuries,

across generations, and look how things have changed.

Things have started off with "Romeo and Juliet"...

Yeah. ...things about the old hag,

and now things are Freddy Krueger.

Mm-hmm. So I think it's who you're asking

and what are their nightmares.

And like you said before, Mickey,

what were their experiences.

I mean, this was the answer for things like alien abduction.

Do you have any stories where people came in and they're like,

"I'm pretty sure I was abducted by the grays last night.

Can you help me out?"

No, but, you know, when you describe what happens

in most of these abduction stories,

it's so easy to say that was an episode of sleep paralysis.

You know, the -- the touching, the probing,

the -- the wanting to scream and shout... Mm-hmm.

...the way they look,

how they're standing in the hallway --

These are things that you can give --

different cultures give a name to.

So it does make some sense of why there is

a common theme throughout our world.

Are there any other common things, like alien abduction,

that you often kind of hear or hear stories of -- of like,

they're convinced it's that?

And, you know, the big thing is gonna be demons --

the incubus and the succubus, you know?

But it always seems to be associated

with nothing peaceful. Right.

It always seems to be like this is a punishment

that you're having this...Yeah.

...and so that's why it's chalked up under nightmares.

What a surprise, you know?

Well, doc, I came in here worrying about sleep demons,

and now I'm gonna leave here worrying about sleep demons.

Oh, no!But at least there's a science behind it now.

-Yes, there is. -Thank you so much.

You're very welcome.I really appreciate it.

Mickey, my favorite customer.

Sam, what fucked you up as a kid?

As a kid...

Like "The Bad Seed?"

No, like, you, as a child.

Child.

Ah, like "Who Can Kill a Child?"

That's my favorite killer kid movie.

No, not movies, Sam! Like, you, personally.

What fucked you up during your childhood?

Mickey...

I've never been a child.

"Room 237." Rodney Ascher.

Yeah, it's, uh, pretty great.

I love Rodney's stuff.

That moon landing was totally fake.

You're an idiot.

But I have some stuff I think you'll love

that gets at you in the same way

Rodney's stuff does, you know,

like, scar you existentially.

Great. We're gonna start with "They Look Like People."

Woman: Those that try to hurt you will turn silent.

This film is a really vivid look at mental illness

and your perception of reality.

It has these insane dream sequences

in sort of pitch-black background.

It gets totally under your skin.

It's ultra-low-budget, but what they pull off

is genuinely creepy. I think you're gonna dig this.

I think it's gonna fuck you up a little bit.I can't wait.

On the other side of the spectrum is "Blind Sun."

This is similarly, like, new-school paranoia,

but out, sunburnt, sun-scorched, on the beach.

It's in Greece.

There's a guy, he's house sitting,

and the people around him are constantly questioning him.

He's constantly asked about his immigration status, who he is,

and it really takes on some rich themes

about sort of immigration and our own biases.

Beach, sun-torched, sweaty movie.

Sounds good to me.

Then we got "Noroi."

"Noroi" is a Japanese film from the director

of "Sadako vs. Kayako."Okay.

It's actually from 2005,

never released in the U.S., but it's a Shudder exclusive.

We finally brought it to the States.

It's really special.

It takes that D.V. aesthetic

and freaks you out

as this guy who investigates paranormal instances

follows a curse through generations,

all the way to its, like, really demonic roots.

This is one of the scariest movies

of the early 21st century,

and it's totally essential.

That sounds awesome and terrifying.

All right. I got two more for you.

We're gonna take you to documentary. Is that cool?

Real-life horror. I'm ready, baby.

All right. We're gonna talk about "Cropsey"...

Man: Cropsey was the escaped mental patient

who lived in the tunnels beneath the old

abandoned Willowbrook Mental Institution.

...and "Killer Legends."

This is attempt to uncover the truth

behind our urban legends.

These are two movies from Joshua Zeman.

He co-directed "Cropsey" with Barbara Brancaccio

and "Killer Legends" with Rachel Mills.

Both films look at urban legends

and kind of what frightened us as kids, the stories we heard,

and follows them to their factual roots.

You know, where did these myths come from?

What did these myths attach themselves to?

In the case of "Cropsey,"

the legend of Cropsey attached itself

to a bunch of child abductions on Staten Island.

So, they do a really great job of

looking at what scared people in their youth

and then extrapolating that into true adult fears,

like loss, like child abduction, like grief.

They're awesome. They will stick with you, I promise.

Well, these sound like awesome recommendations, dude.

Thank you so much.

Take care of that childhood thing before you think

about having kids or anything.

Don't worry. I can't.

All right. Well...

Later. Salutations.

Holy shit.

Another nightmare?

Hey, Rodney.

Hey, Mickey.

Is this a dream?

All right. I'm not falling for this again.

I know a nightmare when I'm in one.

Aah! Fuck!