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The critics have suggested that you

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or Hantz Farm project is something of a land grab,

nothing more than a land grab,

and you have said that that it not what it is about.

Your website mentions green jobs alleviating

the food desert problem in Detroit

and generally cleaning up the city.

Are you willing to commit to putting all the land

that you own into a community land trust,

that's one question, and--

Why don't we handle that one

since there was like six in there.

Well, there were a few and I'm tryin' to combine 'em,

so you wanna address that one first?

Yeah, one is, it is definitely a land grab,

you can't farm without land.

It's one of these, "Do you beat your wife still?"

And it's like, "Well, I never did," but it's sorta...

You can't farm without land, so I really can't ever,

it's sorta one of those great tricky questions

in the sense that--

It's not a tricky question,

you don't need to own the land to farm it.

Well, that's what makes it different.

Detroit's in a unique position

because we have almost a third of the geographic footprint

of the city which is vacant land.

And so we'd like to see much more robust use

of that land for agricultural production

and as an economic driver for the city of Detroit.

We have significant problems

with the approach that the Hantz Farm,

or what is now being called Hantz Woodlands is taking.

We have a fundamental vision that is different.

The money goes back to him, the question is

how much viability does that provide for a neighborhood?

And so we're very concerned

about the equitable distribution

of publicly owned land in the city of Detroit.

That the average Detroiter should have access

to land in the same way that John Hantz has access to land.

The average Detroiter should have a process

which is not convoluted, where that person doesn't have

to go through a maze to buy the vacant lot

next to their house or the vacant lot across the street.

The city council really

kind of put the community and the city as a whole

into this really intense conflict.

The city has given favor to those

who have large amounts of money, such as John Hantz.

So we're concerned about that.

And Detroit is up for grabs right now,

this is a real battle.

This is no less than the battle in the Old West

and if they had gunslingers then,

they have robber barons now.

I can only speak for myself that every day,

things I believe to be true are not

and every day, things that I didn't know, I discover.

I see, as I walk through this process,

that if you're not open to self-discovery,

if you're not open to tinkering and trial and error,

if you're not open to having new information be discovered

or bestowed upon you each day, this isn't gonna work.

The residents in and around our development area,

we are the biggest investment that they've seen in decades.

We're the biggest in terms of dollars,

the biggest in terms of footprint

and we're the biggest in terms of impact.

How ya doin'?

Is it okay?

Well, how many you takin?

Uh, probably about, about six?

That's all, though.

'Cause we cleared this,

we're gonna plant trees here this fall.

We're gonna use these to mulch our trees.

Oh, okay, I didn't know that.

So, if you're takin' five or six barrels that's fine.

All right, thanks a lot.

Beyond that I wouldn't approve it, okay?

Okay, thanks a lot.

Six, I got your word on that?

Six?

- Okay? - All right, thanks a lot.

He's only takin' a little bit.

He's gonna take five or six garbage cans.

I don't mind that.

I was born in Detroit on the East Side.

In Detroit, we have West Side and East Side,

so it becomes part of your identity,

and all through your life when you introduce yourself,

if you say you're from Detroit,

people immediately ask, "East Side or West Side?"

So, I'm and East Sider and that happens to be

where Hantz Farms is located, on the East Side of Detroit.

I had this dream of somehow taking what I had learned

in life and using it to help my hometown.

I think a lot of people had that dream.

While Detroit had a lot of urban gardens and they're great,

because of Detroit's landscape and all the vacant land

that has no purpose and there's no budget to maintain it,

what Detroit really needed was a large-scale farm.

And a farm in Detroit would be more

than just a production center,

it becomes a platform for tourism and education,

for economic development

and also for healing some of the fractures in our community.

I think we're best defined by our broken relationships.

So I had this vision for a large farm in the city,

but I didn't know anybody

who really could launch a farm like that?

One day, my boss from Michigan State University called me up

said, "Mike, you help people write business plans

"for agricultural businesses,

"there's a successful businessman in Detroit

"and he's interested in trying to start a large farm,

"do you think you could help him?"

And I laughed, I said, "Sure, you know,

"it sounds like what I was looking for."

I have this problem that I've lived here

four-and-20 years, and I tell myself every year,

it's gonna get better, and it doesn't.

But each year I lie to myself,

like as a New Year resolution,

this is the year, it's gonna get better.

And probably about five years ago

I was drivin' to work, I drive out of the city

where most people drive into the city,

So, I'm doin' my morning drive

and I'm stopped at a stoplight, I'm just sorta daydreamin',

lookin' around and I'm like, "This is ridiculous."

And it's not gettin' better

and I don't see how it's gonna get better?

Then I made the dreaded mistake

that only the human mind can do,

I said, "What's someone gonna do about this?"

Then I went to the next light and then it dawned on me,

"Well, that somebody might be you?

"Maybe you need to do somethin' about this?"

One of the issues in Detroit that I found was,

because we saw the problem as so large,

that all the solutions had to be big.

And big bang theory to cure

the issue that we faced in Detroit,

when in reality, we didn't have the resources

for a big bang theory, you know,

but if you got a big problem, you gotta have a big answer.

We didn't have the resources for that here in Detroit.

So as I kept drivin' I started thinkin',

well, what's doable?

I lived 30 miles outside of Detroit when I grew up.

I lived in this farm area, it was apple orchards,

people seemed to enjoy that.

And I thought to myself, if we could just clean up

the debris, clean up the blight,

just get it down to the bare ground,

people seemed to enjoy livin' around a farm.

People that seemed to enjoy that open space.

Why wouldn't we just do that,

'cause once we got down to the ground

we don't have to do a big, crazier idea.

Just let time be our friend instead of our enemy.

I thought, well, in economic terms

what's really our issue here in Detroit?

I found that our issue was we didn't have any scarcity.

So I thought, well, I got this farm idea,

would that farm create scarcity?

Think of all the areas in the United States

where farms take large tracts of land

and no one thinks of them in a negative way

because they're out of circulation.

And they help stabilize and they help create value

for those residents in those areas.

So I thought, that's what we need to do.

The major problem that we have is

that we are concerned about large amounts of land

being amassed in the hands of single individuals,

particularly wealthy white men.

We think that part of the imbalance we see

in the world today has to do with large amounts of wealth

being amassed by wealthy white men.

This is not your neighborhood.

You wanna come over into our neighborhood

and plant trees, plant trees in your neighborhood.

To me, it became very apparent

that it was more about real estate

than it was about feeding people,

and more about what Mr. Hantz referred to as scarcity

and creating that scarcity.

At one time, Detroit had the largest amount

of individual home ownership of the working class

in the country, if not in the world,

but certainly in this country.

That is being diminished not only by Hantz Farms,

but by others who are getting these large,

huge tracts of land to say we're gonna build apple orchards

or we're gonna build whatever the case may be.

It was very upsetting that he would use food

and feeding people as the means to do that.

For me it smacked of a lot of the same kind

of processes used globally by food producers

that are purchasing large areas of land to grow food on.

And what's happening is the ownership,

they're gaining ownership of that land

and turning it into property, basically,

from whatever it was before.

This land that we're talkin' about was

private sector land to begin with,

that was then confiscated through excessive taxation.

Then, what we're talkin' about is reverting

it back to private sector.

We're not talking about parks that were parks

and now let's move them to the private sector.

Some were just lots, some were vacant

and abandoned homes, but nobody was taking care of them.

Whether they were privately owned

or owned by the city, state or county,

nobody was taking care of this property

the way they should have been

or the way the residents in that area deserved.

A blight has multiple impacts on children,

it puts them at risk for violence

because of vacant structures

that they're going past to and from.

And it's the perfect place for a predator to dwell.

Imagine the impact it has when you're walking

past destruction every single day in your neighborhood

and what that says to you as a child

about your worth and the worth of your community

when nobody's doing anything about it.

I think it negatively impacts your lives

because I think you are a part of your environment.

And if you come outside your environment

and all you're seein' is a bunch of trees

and bushes and garbage, it's depressing.

Blight and the psychology

of a neighborhood are intertwined.

Blight is ugly.

Blight creates a perception that nobody cares.

Blight creates a perception that there's no value

and that affects most especially the people living

amidst all that blight.

Because value is so related to perception,

and a desire to reinvest is so related to that perception,

it ends up having a debilitating effect

on an entire neighborhood.

And it's all related, really, to the psychology

of the people who live and try to do business.

I mean, think about it, anything that you have

to be close to that's not healthy affects your psyche.

Young people who go to school, for instance,

in that community, who walk past abandoned homes

and burned out houses and overgrowth

where there might possums and raccoons and dogs and vermin,

you begin to actually think that's normal,

that that's okay.

Then you go somewhere else to visit, maybe,

and you start sayin', "Well, wait a minute,

"why does where I live look like this

"and why does where they live look like that?

"And what's the difference and why?"

It affects your psyche, it affects your sense of self worth,

it affects your self esteem,

it certainly affects your housing values.

And it just doesn't make you feel good.

The blight narrative just really pisses me off.

I mean, so one man's blight is another man's life?

And that's one of those things that's just like,

where do you define blight?

The more the blight, the less the activity,

the fewer the people.

The fewer the people, the higher the crime

and the less safety.

The reverse of that is that clearing the blight makes

people feel better and when people feel better

they want to invest, the want to come outside,

they want to generate activity in the neighborhood.

And that, in turn, can have a positive impact

on perception and reality of safety.

So, we tend to underestimate the

implications and the power of blight and blight-fighting.

That's great that John Hantz wants to take care of blight,

but the problem with the word blight is,

typically, I equate blight with Black.

That's the way that things seem to happen.

And a lot of the pieces of the city

that they're removing are pieces

that the Black Community has been engaged with.

A lot of the structures of Democracy

that have been removed are Black power structure ideas

that may be very different from the uber-capitalists

way of thinking that is presented now,

but were very powerful and protected the community here.

And that's one of the things that I get to experience

when I go into planning and development

and try to get something done,

there is a power structure existent within city hall

that respects the Black power structure

that was here for decades.

And there's a new power structure

that's moving into that space

that's trying to weed out a lot of it

so that things can become streamlined.

The reason why those structures existed

in city hall was to protect community

because the folks here were lookin' out

for their brothers and sisters,

and they were setting up systems to protect them

to make sure that they weren't doin' things

like kickin' people out,

to make sure that they weren't movin' them down.

That's what that corruption was about,

it was about community.

And the White power structure, in order to break that,

has had to break all of these laws,

go completely unConstitutional with emergency management

and make all these deals with billionaires,

givin' away shit, so that they can move people on.

I mean that's why blight pisses me off.

I've been livin' in this neighborhood all my life.

My mom been right here like 48 years.

I've been livin' on this street 53 years,

this street right here, I never moved off this street.

We lived down the street but we moved here.

This house is on sale, they're supposed

to be buyin' projects over here

and buildin' certain stuff and he was buyin' up the homes.

So we moved here, my mom bought this house,

ever since, I've been right here, man.

Ain't been nowhere.

On the corner we had a bar down there,

we had a store down here.

We had a bakery right here, pool hall, barber shop.

We had all kind of activities goin' on right here.

Had a police station way down there,

but police stayed was just right here,

we didn't have to go that far.

They had a great big old supermarket called the A&P,

it was right there like the Food Express over there.

There was one there called the A&P,

that burned down in the '67 riot.

On July 23, 1967, Detroit was hit by a riot.

We said it couldn't happen, but it did

and the nation wash shocked.

This is a story of that riot which left 43 dead,

thousands injured and a city in flames.

I remember as kid, like it was yesterday,

my mom was workin', my dad was workin'.

A neighbor came in, telling me to close up all the curtains

and everything and don't come out of the house

that it was a riot.

What is a riot, you know?

My mom made it home from work

and then, as you looked at television,

you heard what was goin' on.

I mean it was right here in the neighborhood.

And to hear gun shots all night long

and to see people on top of roofs,

shootin' at police officers, shootin' at fire trucks

and seein' Mack Avenue burned down.

Fighting one war now in Vietnam and we were losin',

so why should we come back here

and fight a war among ourselves?

People looting and all of that,

that was the worst that I've ever seen.

Soldiers right on the corner of Mack,

as a kid, that was the worst.

That was home, wasn't it?

Yes, it was a nice home.

Then the aftermath, everything that

they seemed to be arguing or promoting,

you tore up your own neighborhood.

And to this day, people in the neighborhood are

still payin' for what happened in the riot

because it was never rebuilt.

They burned down their own stores,

burned down everything that we had right on Mack Avenue,

and over the years it was never built back up.

So it's like you sit in your own mess that you created.

It was empty now 'cause we had parents

who left houses to their kids

and the kids didn't take care of the houses.

And they were letting people come in here,

usin' their houses for a drug house

and a house of prostitution.

Oh, my God,

it was

awful.

It had gotten to the point I was scared to walk

to church in the morning.

And then my mom,

we lived down the street, we started driving to church.

You had the schoolgirl rapes going on around here.

I was really scared to go to church,

so what I started doing was,

I started bringing my church clothes

to the church and changing in the church.

And they said, "Why you bringing your church clothes?"

I said, "Until they tear this house down,

"this is gonna be the plan of the day.

"I'm going to come up here and I'm going to change

"into my church clothes up here.

"And then when I leave church in the afternoon,

"I'm going to change back into my pants or jeans

"and gym shoes and come back in case somebody's chasing me,

"I can just drop my stuff and start runnin'."

I've seen Detroit go from a city of two million

to a city about 600,000.

I seen Detroit go from a city that was

an urban, quite desegregated society

to one that's become primarily African American.

Where there were large shares of money for services,

the second-best transportation system in the country,

to one where, in fact, it's hard to get

a bus after 10 o'clock.

Where 40% of the people don't drive

in a city that's known for driving.

I've seen the city become more intolerant

to the working class, whether it be police misconduct

or brutality, or just foreclosure, evictions and so forth.

I've seen the leaving of the city

by workers who live in the city, moving to the suburbs,

and that's African American and White and Asian and so on,

moving out of the city which has depleted the tax base.

The population loss is stunning.

So, when we first started working on

the Lower East Side Action Plan in 2010,

new data was coming in from the census showing

that we had lost 40% of our population.

That's staggering.

I don't know that there's been

a case in the United States of

a population loss in a major city that huge.

So to watch the population leave, leaving empty houses

and then the businesses follow the residents

and they start leaving.

And then to watch the leadership

of once very active Black clubs disintegrate,

is very, very discouraging.

As people have left the city,

I mean they've just left properties.

Detroit has literally lost enough people

in the last 40-50 years to start another major city.

We've lost over a million people, that's a major city.

And the homes didn't go with them,

so we're stuck with all of these single-family owned homes

that we have to figure out what to do with?

We became a suburb and sprawled far before

we left the boundaries of our city.

And that has left a very difficult environment

to be successful in.

So, we're going to have nodes of density

and we're going to have, also,

varying types of living situations.

Whether that's actually almost rural,

to reforestation to mid-rise to high-rise,

it's really what's kind of exciting,

is it kind of meets a lot of different diverse needs.

Some people actually love farming here

and that will be a small piece of the puzzle,

and that's the environment they want to live in.

So, it was about the time you that heard a lot

about urban farming and this concept,

what is urban farming and who's doing it

and what does it look like?

Is an urban farm a garden in your backyard

or is this some major situation

that you can't necessarily envision

because we are a group of cities

and we're city dwellers and we're city people.

You don't see pigs, chickens, cows and horses

and whatnot in the inner city,

you see that stuff in the country.

Agriculture isn't just a field of corn,

it can include orchards, forestry.

Those were all part of the food and fiber system.

Well, for some people, farming is red barn,

pigs and chickens, the storybook picture

that you would get growing up.

And then for other people,

an urban farm would be an urban garden.

It could be as small as 20 feet by 20 feet

and people would say they're an urban farmer.

It could be a couple of vacant lots,

it could be an acre or two acres.

When people drive by it and they look

and they see vegetables and fruit being grown there,

they say, "There's an urban farm."

It's interesting because when we began operating here

in June 2008, what we had was the verbal permission

from the then Deputy Director of the Recreation Department

for the City of Detroit.

Who, it turns out, was the high school friend

of the former mayor, Kwame Kilpatrick.

Shortly after we got his verbal authorization

to begin operating here,

the Kilpatrick Administration began to unravel.

And because this gentleman was an appointee of the mayor,

he lost his position and so we find ourselves

in a precarious position because we were here

with only the verbal authorization of somebody

who is no longer in office.

We didn't have any written agreement with the city,

but we decided to just forge ahead.

In reality, we had no real

rights,

so to speak, no legal rights to be on the land.

I guess we were kind of gangster gardening kinda.

Some people call it gorilla gardening.

Urban farming is important for quite

a few different reasons.

One, if there is an area that is

abandoned, the house may be blighted out,

that house can be demolished if it can't be saved

and we can weed in a community garden right there.

Our mission is three-fold.

To reunite the community in itself

to reunite the community with the earth.

So, some of the potatoes that we make the potato chip with,

we grown in the community and they reunite

the community with the economy.

But I think the biggest thing that agriculture can bring

to an urban area like Detroit is just the partnerships.

And we see ourselves being able to hire more people

from our community and create work here in the community.

And agriculture just happens to be

the thing we do together, I think,

to bond for the common good of,

particularly, our state of Michigan here.

We want to be an example, a prototype, of what's possible.

That we can indeed create work in our community,

and if we can do it in our community

then there are other communities that can learn from us,

from our mistakes, from our successes

and create products themselves.

John hired Mike as the president of his company

and Mike was in need of a manager

so one day he just kinda called me up out of the blue

and said, "Hey, would you be interested

"in movin' to Detroit?"

I had heard about the project

through the grapevine and stuff.

To be honest, my dad and I kinda laughed about it, 'cause,

growin' up on a farm,

the only experience I had

with Detroit was comin' to Tigers games.

We had heard that Mike was gonna start this farm in Detroit.

We're like, "This guy's crazy, what's he talkin' about?"

Over time, as Hantz met opposition and

the city had to figure out

how to facilitate what he wanted to do with the land

and the way that I think he wanted

to go about putting it together.

Typically, I think the city had, in the past,

had to parcel lands together, and this was different pieces,

non-contiguous pieces of land that he was able to purchase.

There was, I think, a lot of bureaucratic processing

to shift that around and to make it all possible.

So, a lot of people say, "Well, you changed."

And I like to say, "No, I didn't change,

"I adjusted and I adapted

"to a situation that I wanted to have happen."

And I played within the issues that were happenin' to me

to go do what I really wanted to do,

which was not live in the situation

that we were all living in.

Our neighbors didn't want

that type of agriculture in the city,

was uncomfortable with us going in that direction.

So, we set aside the type of production,

but we didn't set aside the bigger concept

that we believed in.

When he called me, I told him my reservations

and he said, "Well, just come up here one time

"and I'll show ya around."

Well, I met him at his house, we drove up here

and we got off 75, right there by Eastern Market,

it's like, boom, vacant land as far as you can see.

It was like we were in the middle of the country.

At that time, I started thinkin',

"Maybe this guy's actually on to somethin'."

So I was hopin' originally,

that we would actually grow things that produced, apples,

pears, carrots in the ground, whatever it might be.

And the energy around that

was taking so long that to resolve that issue

and all the disinformation around that issue,

became, I could either spend my life talking about it

for another five years on top of the five,

or I could just concede that ground

and say, "What can no one argue about?"

The whole idea of using agriculture as a tool

to eliminate large-scale blight

in an urban center is what we're doing.

So how I got to trees was,

can I accept the economics of trees,

and I came to the answer, yes.

Then I came to, can anyone argue about trees?

I was wrong, yes they can.

Some, not know who the Hantz Group was

and not knowing what the Hantz Farm was,

thought this might be another opportunity for a land grab.

That there were those who were here

who might try to buy the land and could not buy it,

and now this large conglomerate would come and buy land

and God knows what they would do with it?

Based on what you need to do to survive,

you're gonna maintain at different levels.

Not everybody is going to be able

to do Better Homes and Gardens in Hantzland all of a sudden.

People are just not very comfortable with thinking

that a millionaire is not gonna get a benefit

out of what he's doin'.

What we have with his farm is monocrop systems,

where it's one plant, same tree, tree, tree, tree.

And that's the exact opposite

of what is a good, healthy system, as opposed to

the permaculture way with the forest farming.

The key is not the forest, the key is the soil.

When I said I was willing to not worry

about any value creation happening quickly,

'cause I didn't believe that.

When I say trees and say I'm willing to wait 15 or 20 years,

25 years for the trees to mature,

I mean, that's pretty much mainstream, right?

Hantz need to go out somewhere to the wilderness

where they won't affect people's lives with trees.

You are affecting people's living situations.

I'm not a big believer that

anyone's gonna get rich quick off of this property.

They're gonna have to take a long,

long term view of the future.

And if they do, some good things may

or may not happen to them.

And then I would also argue,

wouldn't we want something good to happen

to them over the long haul?

Because if nothing good happens to people

who do this over the long haul,

what does that say about the situation

at ground zero where we're talkin'?

That's be a sad story for sure to Detroit.

When the people came from West Virginia,

Kentucky, Tennessee, Louisiana, like my folks,

Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, wherever they came from,

they were basically post-peasants.

They came here and they didn't have money,

especially African Americans, were sharecroppers.

That meant that you worked, theoretically,

for your share of the crop that was produced

and you never made the share.

So you ended up, essentially, being a slave again.

You had to pay back, year after year after year,

and you never paid it.

Then they could take your property,

they could lock you up, they could do whatever

and that, plus the terrorism of the Klan

and everything else, when Henry Ford offered $5 a day

and people had an opportunity to come here, they did.

And they bought homes.

Back in the beginning of the 20th century,

most people in Detroit did not own their own homes.

By the middle of the century,

with the money from Ford and all the other auto industries,

people had bought homes, sent their children to school.

And so land became the essence

of determining the framework of humanity.

You have examples of projects on the East Side

where promises have been made,

neighborhoods have been cleared out,

sometimes a project happens, sometimes it doesn't.

That creates a mindset, that gets in our bones, in our DNA.

It creates a cynicism, it creates a mistrust.

The private sector is as mistrusted as the city

because in the case of Poletown, you had General Motors.

In the case of Chrysler, you had Chrysler.

And so, people don't trust and people see

that big investment is the enemy.

It's been challenging for some people,

like my sister who lives on the West Side of Detroit.

Purchasing the lot right next to her,

there was so much red tape, she has it now

but it took her several years to get that.

And so then you have a person that comes in

and he's able to buy and they're tryin' to figure out why?

And in the African American community,

where ownership of land is about all you can count on

to pass on to your children,

now you're talkin' about really cutting the aorta.

And that's very difficult for people to handle.

My folks fought to buy their home in Detroit,

fought tooth and nail to do that,

because homes and land are the basis

of inter-generational wealth.

The primary basis of inter-generational survival.

That's the only thing you can have that passes on.

Again, it was an ambitious project, but not unreasonable.

The amount of land that he was looking for,

I think we ended up with about 1200 parcels.

And at the time, I was also managing

the city's real estate portfolio,

at the time we had over 64,000 parcels of land

in our inventory that included abandoned buildings

and a lot of vacant land.

So, to look at giving up 1200 parcels

for an effort to explore a new way to utilize

the extra land in the community,

seemed reasonable to me to at least explore it.

You have to realize that at the time,

the county was foreclosing on over 20,000 parcels a year.

While it sounds like a lot, John wanted a full block here

and a half-a-block there,

everything that he could assemble around Indian Village,

in the larger picture, it wasn't that much land.

Generally, privately-owned land become city-owned land

through tax foreclosures.

So, people don't pay their property taxes,

the land gets foreclosed on by the county

on behalf of the city and it ends up in city inventory.

So there are auctions that take place

where people can go and purchase that property.

Usually, by the second auction, I believe it is,

the property, you can purchase it for as low as $500.

And then we also have a couple of programs

in the city where you could purchase lots for $100 a lot.

Hantz was paying $200 a lot, and they paid more

where there was actually property on the land.

Once we reached an agreement in principle with the city,

opponents organized into a network of opposition.

And they developed some talking points that they spoke from.

When we would have public meetings about our work,

they would unleash new talking points

and we never really knew what they were going to be?

After this huge crisis,

which was caused by financial institutions,

the people of Detroit are now losing land.

So the people on the bottom are giving up land

to the people on the top.

It really epitomizes land grabs by the 1% in urban areas.

It's the first time in my life I'd ever been involved

in what somebody else was calling a land grab.

I didn't know what it meant?

We weren't grabbing the land, we were buying it.

Land grab means that

with some inherent power being vested

in whom ever decides to grab it,

and certainly with some malfeasance in their heart,

it means that it's being snatched.

I think this project is a land grab

because I was supposed to have the first right to this lot,

Hantz got the first right to the lot

because they knew about it and I didn't.

Detroit is on a major waterway.

Have some of the freshest water in the world.

The water in the Great Lakes will be comportable to gold

in the future.

They even talk about cruise ships coming up and down.

So Mr. Hantz and others, I mean,

they serve to be gazillionaires

in relationship to what they're doing.

And his argument, sayin', "Well, I went out

"and developed it," and so forth,

that's the same thing they said in the West

when they went out and took it from the Native Americans.

"We developed it."

No, what you did is you underdeveloped the people there

so you could have access to it

and you did it in compliance and relationship to people

in governmental circles that you were able to manipulate,

either through force of argument

or possibly force of money.

I would embrace that idea if only I could hallucinate.

And what I mean by that is,

one, for something to be valuable it has to be scarce.

We have 40 square miles of stuff

that no one knows what to do with.

It would be like sayin', in Las Vegas,

it's hard for your value of your home to go up

because they can just keep goin' out

another eighth of a mile and build a brand new sub division.

And then when they're done with that,

they can go out another eighth of a mile.

So, I guess, by the time they get 40 miles out,

then maybe if you were the first people

who bought 40 years ago and you're the only mile out,

then you probably have some value.

But, I think we'd all agree that didn't happen in a moment.

You know, he's not grabbing up property

that people were clamoring for.

I mean these properties are sitting dormant at the time,

not on the tax roll, not producing anything,

not an asset, not a net benefit to the community

that they reside in.

Now those definitions are all different

and there's not a land grab here.

And, surprise, the bogey man lives next door.

So maybe he's not the bogey man,

maybe he's actually a good citizen,

maybe he's a good neighbor?

The farm is the same thing, it's a misunderstanding

about values created, in a sense

and it's the naivete of that thought.

It sort of makes me smile

because I would love that to be the case,

but if that were the case, then I would have never had

to do the farm because I wouldn't be living in what was,

a couple years ago, what many people would refer to

as a third-world situation.

What it says, and I don't want to carry this burden,

that I would have to be

almost the smartest man in the world

because no one else saw this property as valuable

and I snuck in

and got it.

I'm just not that smart!

You know, honestly, what John Hantz is doin' is

it's not smart.

You don't spend your own money,

'cause if it goes belly up you lose it.

And we're not talkin' about $5,000,

I think at last

telling to me, John told me he'd spent $6-7 million.

And when I say not smart, I'm not being condescending,

I'm sayin' that all the people who do what he does,

his ilk, his corporate friends,

people who are in the business that he's in,

people who make the kind of money he makes,

would all say, "John, what are you doin',

"that's just not the way you should do it?

"You should go down to city hall,

"you should get them to give you some incentives for that,

"after all, you're beautifying the community

"on your own dime."

Just working with Mike, I just can't see Mike working

with someone who is selfish or self-centered

or all about greed or money being the driving force

behind what they're doing.

If there's personal gain for it for him then great.

I'm fine with him making money off it eventually,

but if it's about the community as well, rising with him,

which I believe it will be,

then that's what we need in Detroit.

We need this, all boats rise with the tide mentality

and I'm hopeful that that's what this project is about

'cause it seems to be.

Hopefully, it's just trees and gardening.

I mean, I wouldn't be opposed to him building houses,

I mean hey, you know,

at some point and selling them.

Why not?

We have a health problem, we have an education problem,

we have a general kind of decline of community problem

and giving the land to super-rich people

who aren't going to invest in any

of those things is not the appropriate way to handle it.

What's next, is McDonald's gonna

take over a part of Detroit,

is Walmart gonna take over a part of Detroit?

Urban agriculture, what does that mean?

What does that mean in the state of Michigan?

Our agricultural laws in this state were built more

to protect land

from a Walmart coming in,

they weren't built with the anticipation

of miles and miles and miles of vacant land

within a city where someone wants to come and plant trees.

Let's stop talking about the crop

and let's start talking about the project,

and does it really help the area and help people.

And it did accomplish what I hoped it would accomplish,

we're done talkin'.

And now let's go to a vote and either help people

or agree we're not going to.

Here's the issue, most won't see themselves

within this scenario

because they never connected the initials.

Been trippin' over square feet

'cause your starvin' spirit ain't got enough to eat

and you're too blind to bite the hand that feeds you.

So, yes, we live in broke-down neighborhoods

and some of them are challenged,

but that don't mean we're broken.

We might have some problems, but that don't mean

we don't have no solution.

Community, land, trust.

A chance to do this presentation.

So Mike Score's gonna do a presentation on Hantz.

- Good evening. - Good evening.

I will comment on the obvious.

Could you introduce yourself?

I'm Mike Score, President of Hantz Farms.

No, no, now what?

President of Hantz Farms.

- Oh, okay. - Oh, no.

The screen is small.

I keep a work journal, when things happen I write 'em down.

I write down who I talked to,

what I experienced, how I feel.

When I explained what we were proposing to do,

people were attentive, they were actually very nice to me.

But then, when the public comment session opened up,

it became more hostile.

In the middle of the thrashing,

Charles Pew called Rob Anderson, the planning director

and Bruce Goldman from the law department,

to come up and comment on the project overview.

When Rob spoke, the critics abused him.

Rob told the straight truth, the city cannot make

any commitment to maintain nor improve the property

that was contained in the Hantz Development Agreement.

What I thought was unfortunate was that

people who were against the project were speaking so

forcefully, that people who were supporting the project,

and actually lived in that area, were intimidated.

They were intimidating people

who were being directly impacted

so that they didn't feel comfortable coming up and speaking.

We can't let people keep dropping in

with briefcases of money and taking our stuff.

What's valuable is land.

What's valuable is the people who utilize that land,

who suffer with it now and who will be uplifted by it later.

We sit there and we hear comments,

you might take some notes, I take note of who's

in the room, who's speaking.

If they live in the area where

the project is taking place.

And just to formulate how I might vote

when the vote actually comes.

My staff is there, our staff's taking notes,

so we come back and we compare notes.

And then after that, I have people come through our office,

those who are for and against the project.

You try to weed out those who are making a lot of noise

and those who have a real interest in our community,

see what they wanna say as well,

After the meeting, a journalist from

the Michigan Chronicle asked if we would be

withdrawing our proposal given

the negative tone of the hearing?

My brain was thinking, "Yeah, we're gonna withdraw

"our proposal," but somehow my mouth told him, "No."

And on the way home I called John Hantz.

I told him about the hearing

and he told me that I'd done a great job

and then he told me I should attend the council vote

the next day to witness the outcome.

Malik Yakini, you have one minute.

Good morning, there's many things I'd like to speak about

but I'm here to speak on the Hantz Woodlands proposal.

We had a tremendous show of public support last night

at the public hearing, as we have a tremendous show

of public participation today.

Which should be applauded,

this should be what Democracy looked like.

Unfortunately, the majority of the people can't get in here

which is a travesty of justice.

We're calling on you to uphold the will of the people

that was expressed last night and to vote no

on the Hantz proposal.

How are in all good conscience going

to actually vote on this here at this time?

And the people of Detroit deserve the benefit--

- 10 seconds. - For being here.

For dealing with the things that the have dealt with

from this city and its officials.

And we really need to think

about doing something differently.

This community land trust idea--

Your time is up.

Is an awesome idea, I'd advise Council, all of you

to consider this instead of doing something--

- Okay. - Like this land grab.

- Thank you very much. - Thank you.

All right.

I say no to Miller Canfield,

no to this bogus consent agreement.

Stand up and fight for the people of this city!

We should take drastic measures against them

because this our children's

and children's life you're dealing with.

And I think it's unfair for Hantz Farm

to have such a hold on such a large area

when I've been fighting to buy other parcels

and lots over there for the past four years.

1891,

it's exactly the same thing.

That's when they tore the railroad tracks up

and pushed that streetcar into the river

down there at the foot of our plan.

So today I stand as a righteous person,

I'm askin' you to come into our city

and take control and every demon in ya

got to go in the name of Jesus!

And I'm prayin' for you right now, Lord God,

we are not bare elements, we are called and anointed

and appointed by you and today is that appointed day.

Last night was civil compared to today.

People in the hallway were screaming and yelling

about every issue under the sun.

A staffer from Charles Pew's office made the mistake

of coming out into the hallway to ask people

not to act poorly on television

because it hurts the city's image.

It turned into the Jerry Springer Show

and people's behavior became worse.

Quiet please!

Quiet please.

Yes?

No, no, just leave it, leave it.

Tell her to leave it alone.

All right.

- No, she ain't got to go! - Officers, officers.

- No, she don't! - She's all right.

We're gonna, if she's gonna lay down on the floor

and create a scene then we'll let her stay.

There are people who are regulars

at, if it's not this issue it's every issue.

After the comments kind of wound to an end,

Charles Pew said that he was gonna go

through the voting process.

All right, the motion's been made,

is there any further discussion?

All right, role call, please.

He didn't mention our venture by name,

but he started voting.

- Council Member Spivey? - No.

- Council Member Tate? - Yes.

- Council Member Watson? - No.

It's illegal.

The first vote was Andre Spivey, he voted no,

and that surprised me because in my conversations

with Councilman Spivey, I expected him to vote yes.

- Council Member Coffel? - Aye with a statement.

- Council Member Jenkins? - Yes, with a statement.

- Council Member Jones? - No.

Well, we already had four no votes,

we needed to run the table to get to five yeses.

And the next four votes, Ken Cockrell, Saunteel Jenkins,

Gary Brown and Charles Pew, voted yes.

Five yeas, four nos.

All right, then that resolution's approved.

Mr. President, just hang on for a moment.

I was just gonna say that this meeting is recorded

so accuracy is important.

This is not an illegal sale.

- Right. - Thank you.

It's a land grab.

- Okay. - No waiver.

So we move now to new business.

When we started racking up our yes votes at the end,

with two votes left to go, one of my opponents said

to another person, "Wait a minute, are they voting

"on Hantz Farms, what's the outcome?"

And then the final yes vote was cast

and Hantz Farms was approved.

And they looked at each other

and I didn't know what they were gonna do,

because they'd been so loud, they'd been so disruptive.

And then they got really quiet and they stood up

and they left the council chambers,

they just walked out, it's like they evaporated.

And I thought, well, when I leave here

I'm gonna have to walk through

this group that's been so antagonistic,

I wonder what that's gonna be like?

And when I got out in the hallways, they were all gone.

I got in the elevator, I didn't run into anybody.

They just went home.

And it was like they're headin' on to the next deal.

I was sort of a little taken aback and irritated,

that I thought I was way more important than that.

I thought we had a little rivalry goin'?

And then I learned in a day, I was irrelevant.

Droppin' a dime on my project was nothin' personal.

It's like, "Bud, we just create noise,

"we create drama, you were handy."

And then, you know, what, you won.

Well, I didn't even think I won,

I didn't even think there was anything to win

since I didn't win.

But in their world, though, sometimes,

they forgot I didn't win I just started.

I actually have to go what, do this!

But here's the sad part that dawned on me that day,

if they had won, they didn't have to do anything.

No one's grass needed to get cut

and no one's grass would have.

No lots would have been cleared.

No sidewalks would have been walkable.

No houses would have been torn down.

And the tragedy and train wreck that we all live in

in this square mile would look

the same today as it would have,

except that they would have bragged

that, "We shut that down.

"And now you look at what we did,

"they get the luxury of livin' in tires, garbage,

"junk, brush, weeds, they can't walk on the sidewalk.

"And we achieved that for them."

Now that would have been a sad day,

but it didn't dawn on me until then.

My work had just begun and they won either way.

When things fall down and you don't have nowhere to go,

and people are telling you

you got to give up what God gave you

and that's all you have of what God give you,

I'd have to say this is the best time in this house.

This is the best time because my youngest days is behind me

and these are my shorter days.

And to be able to live here in this house,

open my front door, we are here to tell you, I keep it open,

walk on my front porch and look out on the field

and look cross over there and it's like lookin' out

on Belle Isle over there.

And just take a deep breath and say, "Lord, I thank you."

And pray for these that have done this.

I think this is my greater time

because this is in my latter days.

This sick spell I had,

I was happy to come home

from the hospital and open my front door

and sit on my porch and know healin' was comin'.

I was goin' to be able to walk around the neighborhood

without so much fear and watch the kids walk up

and down the sidewalk and holler,

"Hey, Ms. Davis, how you doin'?"

"Ms. Davis, you okay?"

I think this is my greater time.

This is my greater time and here talkin' to you

and just seein' this take place.

Havin' the opportunity to say somethin'

about this neighborhood, that I say to other people

but they only hear it for a minute

and they don't understand what I'm sayin'.

Our neighborhood is only as great as you think it is

and I think it's great.

I think this is a great neighborhood.

You hear about stuff not happening in the neighborhoods,

but yet, still there is somethin' happenin'

on the neighborhoods on the East Side.

They can say, "Well, it's small in compared

"to what's goin' on with downtown."

Okay, that's fine,

but it's a bite at a time.

This didn't get like this overnight.

I'll tell somebody in a minute,

they were talkin' about what Hantz Farms is,

I said, "Well, I'll tell you what,

"tell me, if not them, who?

"Tell me what?"

Nobody has an answer.

They're not speculators to come in

and buy a bunch of houses

and sit on 'em

and wait.

There's some action goin' on.

See, his goal is to get everything

to fall into the basement, 'cause then it takes less time

to pick it up and put it through the shredder.

Oh, okay, great!

So then, he'll take that, drop it into the shredder,

they grind it up into small pieces

and then he'll pull his truck up in front of the shredder

and dump it into the truck.

Oh, okay.

Why do you think you got such a backlash,

when you're actually just improving?

I mean, there's no question you're reducing blight.

Because I was naive, I was really not bright.

And what I mean by that, it was new to me.

It was new and it was a mistake

that I didn't think about the territory correctly

to understand the landmines within the territory.

You think, if this had not happened,

all the people who were against it,

did not have one, one solution

for actually doing this if I didn't do it, not one.

Not one of those people would be here today

doing anything to make this neighborhood better.

Not one.

Which is really, to me, that's the part of the story

that no one wants to hold people accountable to.

That if you're gonna destroy an idea that may help,

you have a responsibility, then, to fill that void.

And so, the victory can't be the political victory,

the victory's gotta be the people benefit from the outcome.

We negotiated this agreement with the city

and it took four-and-a-half years to reach that agreement.

It took another year to purchase the land

and another year to fulfill the agreement.

Over that period of time, we've made friends

within city government,

we've built good working relationships

and we're at the point where we now trust each other

and we can work together to use our first investment

as a platform for bigger and better ideas

within the city of Detroit.

We're at the front end of positive change in Detroit

and we're lookin' forward to seein' what happens

as we build good agreements based on that trust.

This is really outstanding here, John and Mike.

You guys certainly should be commended

for what you've done here.

As of noon today, the city is no longer

in a financial emergency.

On Monday, there'll be a court hearing

at which time the judge will buy off

on the plan of adjustment and give us a date,

which will be prior to December 31st,

when Detroit will be, in fact, officially out of bankruptcy.

So, these are good times for Detroit.

What you've done over here is just absolutely outstanding.

Your perseverance and tenacity paid off.

You didn't get discouraged

and you kept doin' the right thing.

You have a lot of developers who just don't always do

everything that's in that development agreement.

Well, I'm proud to say, and thankful in saying,

and John, in your case, you guys not only met

all the requirements of your development agreement

but you, by far, exceeded them.

And so on behalf of the Planning and Development Department

and the City of Detroit and the Mayor's Office,

we're here to give you this certificate of completion

that you have exceeded your requirements

of what you're supposed to do.

We are looking forward to continuing to work

with the Hantz Group as we improve this neighborhood

and Detroit, a neighborhood at a time.

- So, again, John. - Thank you.

We really appreciate it.

Well, you know, we just weren't sure

with what he was talking about doing,

this is something that's new and innovative.

So there was just a basic uncertainty

about what was goin' to happen here.

Of course, the mayor was kind of taking his lead

from what the community was saying

and of course they had some fears, too.

None of those have turned out to be really true.

This had turned out to be a really great project

and the mayor has swung around.

- Can I give you a hug? - You can, yep.

- You have made my life-- - Better, I hope?

- Yes! - Well, that's good.

- A whole lot better! - Well, that's great.

I did those murals on the wall around the corner.

Oh, okay.

And I worked on those lots around here,

planted flowers and did everything I could.

But you, to come into our neighborhood and do this,

it is such a miracle.

And now, what you said, you can walk again.

You can walk and you don't have to be afraid

to go to the lots or none of that and I want to thank you.

I have been waiting for this house

to be torn down, forever.

And the guys were over here about a month ago

and I saw 'em come in, they were markin' stuff

and this and that and the other.

He says, "Please, just be patient, we're gonna get it."

It's the last one.

Today is the day!

Do you know, your name is on my deeds.

Oh, okay.

You bought my house and was gonna tear it down

and I talked to somebody, I didn't meet you

but whoever it was-- Mike Score, yeah.

And I bought my house back and I had lost it.

And your name is on my deeds.

And now you're back

and now you have a better area to look at!

Exactly.

And now you're gonna stay, right?

- Of course. - All right, good!

I been here for over 30 years, I don't wanna go nowhere.

- No time to go now. - That's my home.

I think you can see it in the faces

of the residents that were out here today.

These were some of the same people

that were showing up at city council at the hearings

and being very much against this project,

sayin' some things that weren't so nice

about what they thought was gonna happen.

So, obviously, it's had a tremendous,

positive impact on them.

Seein' it actually transform a neighborhood,

bring pride back to the neighborhood,

see people look and say I actually did make

the right decision by staying, I'm not the dumb one.

That it actually is gonna get better.

For me, remember when we started this project,

I had almost 20 years of every year sayin'

it was gonna get better and it never did.

I can actually say, for the first time,

a year passed and it got better.

There's always been a curiosity about what's going on

on each side of the fence.

And now we're taking that veil down,

we have to deal with the reality of what's going on

and this is the perfect example of what's going on

in the city that's great.

What do I think the future

of this neighborhood could look like?

It could look like it looks right now.

This is so infectious and so now you see

other people painting their house,

you see other people cleaning up their yards.

So what I see for the future is now.

Ours is big.

I've been livin' in the community ever since 1958.

I've seen the apex and I've seen the fall

and this is like a resurgence to me.

Everyday I come in and see new development bein' done

and things happenin', it's really exciting to me.

And my family, 'cause all my family is from here,

my wife's family is from here,

so we kinda enjoyed an opportunity to be able

to see this and help out with this.

I gave this 100% of my effort

to try to be part of the solution

and hold myself to the standard

that I'm askin' other people to do

and to not armchair quarterback.

This is the only project of its kind in the city

that is inuring immediately to the benefit of the community.

I think we're headed in the right direction,

we'll be a city with a more diversified economy,

lots of small local businesses.

And hopefully, lots of families raising their children here.

I drive through, almost every single day from my home

to downtown and I'm seein' what's been takin' place

by the Hantz Farm Group, and knowing that,

again, we couldn't do it by ourselves.

So, if it were not for Hantz Farm,

where we're sitting right now might still be

a dilapidated or broken down home.

I applaud their efforts and if there was one

that I probably could go back and change,

this might be one of those votes I might go back and change.

Mike knows that and I applaud he

and John for all the work that they're doin'.

I had no idea

how deep our work would reach

into the lives of our neighbors.

I think the times that were most stunning for me

along the way were when people who didn't really know me

just came up and started crying because of

their relief.

There's this gratitude, but not really towards us

because they didn't know us very well,

but this gratitude that

that burden of blight was being lifted from them.

And especially, when mothers of young children,

with their children by their side,

come up and said, "You don't know it,

"but your work has really made

"the lives of my children better."

I was really blown away by that.

It is makin' a difference.

It's creating hope and it's creating dialogue.

It's creating interaction in the community.

It's creating comradery.

It's

creating a sense of pride,

just all of these different virtues

that, "Okay, was it worth getting shot

"at a couple times, metaphorically?"

Yeah, I guess if I have to look back, yeah it was.

And that is why, in the human experience

we all, I think, have been taught, go see it for yourself.

Just go check it out for yourself.

And I tell ya, it's pretty convincing.

You're hard pressed to make a bad argument for this

when you just go park your car on one of those streets

and just get out and turn 360 and take a look.

What I hope happens here is that

we say that person took risk

and that risk led to the betterment

of a lot of people who lived in that square mile.

The legacy, thank goodness, that vote went the way it went.

That the legacy really should boil down to that 5-4

and what happens if it's 5-4 the other way?

And how far backwards does that 4-5 put us

if it goes the other way?

How much further back would the people

that live in this area be,

if one thing didn't tip their way?