Original subtitles

[soft music playing]

Downloaded from YTS.MX

[woman] Have you ever heard of Hillsong Church?

Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX

Yes, I do know Hillsong Church.

Hillsong is an evangelical musical big church.

I've heard of it,

I think mainly through Justin Bieber.

It was the first church that I actually went to in New York City.

I went every single Sunday.

I know it's a very large international community

I know it's a very large international community

that's reaching the far corners of the world

to kind of spread the gospel.

Come on, let's have some praise tonight.

[intense music playing]

[reporter] Hillsong has grown into one of the most

influential mega churches in the world.

They're huge now.

They're huge, especially in America.

I'm a really big fan of the music.

[Elle] They've had over three billion views on YouTube.

They are very much of themselves

their own brand.

their own brand.

They're global. They're great at Instagram.

[man] I mean, Carl Lentz is the superstar.

Sheep desperately need a shepherd.

Hillsong is the celebrity church, right?

[reporter] Celebrity attendees from Justin Bieber,

to Vanessa Hudgens, to Chris Pratt.

The music is unbelievable.

You've got famous people attending the church.

It's like a rock show.

[reporter] Leading the way is the church's founder

and Senior Pastor Brian Houston.

and Senior Pastor Brian Houston.

Hillsong was able to somehow influence its way

into some of the most powerful circles ever.

[Brian] Well, what an honor to be standing

in the White House in the Cabinet Room.

[soft dramatic music playing]

[producer] Were you surprised when it all kind of came crashing down?

It was a huge fall from grace.

[reporter] Carl Lentz is working on damage control.

Nothing about Hillsong surprises me.

[reporter] Hillsong appeared to be succeeding,

building a global brand before a dramatic unraveling.

building a global brand before a dramatic unraveling.

I swear by the Almighty God.

This is gonna be... Gonna get ugly for all of us.

[intense music playing]

[vocalizing]

[upbeat music playing]

[siren wailing]

[siren wailing]

[Brando] You could arrive an hour before service

and there would be a line starting to form around the block.

We would always be greeting people,

probably carrying trays with snacks and things.

[Brando] There was already that excitement and buzz.

So doors would be open.

You would come in big posters saying,

"Welcome home. You belong. Come as you are."

[Richard] The first thing you see is a welcome team.

[Brando] They're usually the nicest people.

[Brando] They're usually the nicest people.

You know, "Richard, you're amazing.

We're so happy to have you here.

We can see great things for your future.

You know, we really love you."

They really make you feel welcome,

make you feel wanted, and make you feel good.

[Neomi] Everyone's wearing what they want.

There is diversity on stage and among the people in the pews.

Hillsong is a safe space for them.

I could be whoever I wanted. People didn't care.

I could be whoever I wanted. People didn't care.

This was gonna be a place where I could call my home.

I need a minute.

That... It hurts to look back because I was so into it.

I was so embedded in it.

I wanted to believe it.

[Richard] They make you feel so good.

And before you know it, you know, you...

You're right in it and you're committed.

You're right in it and you're committed.

But unfortunately, there's something more sinister

under the surface I found.

I am...

When I left,

I genuinely believed I was the problem.

I'm sorry. I'm kind of getting emotional.

The beliefs that they put in you go deep.

They really get in your head.

[Neomi] Now that I look back I'm like damn

like they're trying to manipulate you

into receiving and accepting the abuse that they're causing.

It was traumatic,

and it could've taken my life if I stayed a minute longer.

[dramatic music playing]

[dramatic music playing]

[birds chirping]

My name is Tanya Levin, and I spent my teenage years

in the church called Hills Christian Life Centre,

which is the church that became Hillsong.

Frank Houston, who had previously been

the superintendent of the Assemblies of God in New Zealand,

moved here in the late '70s.

And a couple of years later

his son Brian and his wife Bobbie came here, too.

Frank had started Sydney Christian Life Centre in the center of Sydney

Frank had started Sydney Christian Life Centre in the center of Sydney

that he was quite the hell fire and brimstone preacher.

[Frank] The world is in for a tremendous shock.

Jesus is gonna come suddenly.

[Tanya] So it was all very old school in the beginning.

Eventually, they branched out and Frank started another one

in the Hills area,

and he put his son in charge of it.

It was a really warm community, family environment.

There were like 300 people when we started there

There were like 300 people when we started there

and it was in an old warehouse

and somewhere in those late '80s, things really changed.

♪ So let us dance And praise the Lord, whoa ♪

♪ Let us dance And praise the Lord ♪

Brian really wanted to start expanding, but we're just, you know,

a small little suburban church,

we don't know how to really reach people.

So Brian went on a trip to the States...

and made friends with a guy called Casey Treat.

and made friends with a guy called Casey Treat.

You can prosper in your soul.

You can rise above those negatives.

The product, that those of us who know we are good down,

then we are his children.

I'm an Australian-born journalist.

I've written a book on the neo-charismatic

Pentecostal movement

and I've written a lot about Hillsong

in its various iterations around the world.

The Pentecostal movement started in Kansas and California

at the start of the 20th century.

It was people who wanted to speak in tongues, as was foretold in the Bible.

It was people who wanted to speak in tongues, as was foretold in the Bible.

And then in the '60s, it was born again, if you will,

by a musician, one of the founding members

of what became the Righteous Brothers.

It was disaffected new ages

who had been at the Summer of Love in Haight-Ashbury.

Some people call them, you know, hippie Jesus.

It was about bringing the music at the time

and merging with religion and saying, you know,

it's okay to do this, which was really quite radical at the time.

[man] Jim and Tammy, air date 1086-13.

[man] Jim and Tammy, air date 1086-13.

[announcer] The PTL Television Network presents Jim and Tammy.

[singers] ♪ Praise the Lord ♪

♪ See the things That he has done ♪

[Elle] The third wave, which really got going in

the '70s, and certainly the '80s

was much more global and it was much more corporate.

It was about taking these movements

and making them very branded

and understanding that church can be done in a new way, a modern way,

something that people like and enjoy.

something that people like and enjoy.

So Brian realized this is how you do it.

So it was all about the music

and taking the global aspects that the world was going in

and putting that into church and making people

feel a part of something bigger

and understanding it was about giving consumers what they want.

You know, the customer is always right.

While traveling the United States,

Brian Houston learned how to get money out of people,

so that they could build the kingdom.

So one of the ideas of the Pentecostal movement

So one of the ideas of the Pentecostal movement

is that there's a special messenger

and this messenger has been anointed by God to bring the message,

and some of that message then is prosperity.

As surely as I'm speaking by the Spirit of God

that is a word for a person right now,

that is God penetrating your heart.

It's burning on the inside of you.

And you need to make a vow of faith of a $1,000.

"Oh, Bob, couldn't you say $25,000?" No.

Prosperity gospel is when you accept Jesus.

Prosperity gospel is when you accept Jesus.

You should be expecting blessing

in terms of financial prosperity.

You will be blessed and you will invite others over

after you played, and they will be blessed, too.

You want it, you're gonna get it.

Health, wealth, success.

But I'm here to tell you tonight

you have chance to raise your income.

Praise God.

Brian was going, "Wow, you can really do that?"

I'm gonna have some of that for me.

And he came back with, you know, um, stars in his eyes.

And he came back with, you know, um, stars in his eyes.

That was where the real change happened.

And the church that I see is a church of influence.

It's a church so large in size that the city and nation cannot ignore it.

[Tanya] Brian Houston released this mission statement

and it was titled, "The church that I see."

He talked about wanting a church that filled stadiums

and influenced cities and was spread around the globe.

It's a church growing so quickly,

It's a church growing so quickly,

that buildings struggle to contain the increase.

The church that I see is a church so committed to the raising, the training,

and empowering of a leadership generation

that all its ministries are consumed with this goal.

[dramatic music playing]

Brian Houston was very clever at packaging

what his father had done in terms of planting churches

and being a part of the Pentecostal movement, but really modernizing them.

and being a part of the Pentecostal movement, but really modernizing them.

[soft music playing]

And understanding that it's just about,

you know, getting more people in the door.

It really got going in the early '90s with Hillsong Worship.

That was when they really hit on the music angle

and how popular that would be and started spreading it around Sydney and Australia.

[man] Our fastest selling praise and worship album is,

God is in the House another live recording from Hillsong Australia.

[Elle] Growing up in Sydney where Hillsong started,

I did have a friend who invited me to a Hillsong evening,

which was a stadium spectacular.

My parents were a bit skeptical about letting me go,

but this is part of the appeal of Hillsong

is that, well, there are worse things

a 15-year-old daughter can be doing on a Saturday night.

So they let me go and I experienced it.

I didn't really think a lot at the time,

but I saw Hillsong come to prominence

and realized that I'd experience it without really knowing.

They had a former child star, Darlene Zschech.

They had a former child star, Darlene Zschech.

That with our God, all things are possible.

Who helped bring about Hillsong Worship music.

-[upbeat music playing] -[Darlene] Come on.

♪ Yeah, yeah ♪

She was very much tuned into the musical culture of the time

and made good music and Hillsong started producing that.

♪ Shout to the Lord All the earth ♪

♪ Let us sing ♪

♪ Power and majesty, Praise to the King ♪

♪ Power and majesty, Praise to the King ♪

Hillsong was originally the name of the band

and then the band, and the music became so big

that the church changed its name to Hillsong.

♪ Your love is so good ♪

♪ Jesus ♪

Hillsong started producing it well and exporting it overseas

and the brand really took off from there.

[dramatic music playing]

[Kelsey] I grew up going to a very big mega church.

I reported a story for The FADER in 2018 on Hillsong.

I have no idea how much of an impact

they had on American evangelicalism or even my own childhood.

But I started looking into it

and suddenly all of these songs

that I had heard my whole life,

I realized were written by Hillsong in the first place.

Their songs are better than everyone else's

and they can kind of infiltrate into other churches by having good music.

and they can kind of infiltrate into other churches by having good music.

♪ Spirit lead me ♪

♪ When my trust Is without borders ♪

♪ Let me walk Upon the waters ♪

♪ Wherever you would Call me ♪

♪ Take me deeper... ♪

What Hillsong did was kind of marry

the music that they wanted to sing in church,

the themes, with contemporary music,

so early Hillsong music, the 2000s sounds like 2000s pop.

so early Hillsong music, the 2000s sounds like 2000s pop.

Today's Hillsong music sounds like Coldplay.

♪ That's around the dawning ♪

♪ It's cold ♪

[Kelsey] The goal of Hillsong is to stay current.

It's making music that you know people will like,

and instead of refurbishing your grandma's old hymns, it's something new and shiny.

[singer] ♪ No more shall They... ♪

[Kelsey] These kind of swells of emotion

and huge momentous chord progressions.

and huge momentous chord progressions.

[singer] ♪ I'm so tired ♪

[Kelsey] It's made to make you feel something.

They want you to feel the presence of God within you.

But it's easy to mistake emotional manipulation for a movement of God, right?

Are you crying because the Lord is staging

some kind of intervention in your life

or are you crying because the chord structure is built to make you cry?

[cheering]

♪ You call me out Upon the waters ♪

♪ The great unknown ♪

♪ Where feet may fail ♪

So if you go to Hillsong any week,

there are songs that even if you went every week

you would have never heard because they're new.

They're being tested live on the audience

every Sunday, which is kind of funny, right?

You say like you're going to worship.

You're going to, like, experience your faith.

You're going to, like, experience your faith.

Your once a week practice.

And unbeknownst to you, the people on stage

who are leading you in this like emotional worship

are testing their new products on you, right?

It's kind of a weird dynamic.

[Tanya] Music's a really huge department,

because it's so critical to the hypnosis.

The music is completely weaponized

for whatever the church's needs are, as well as financial,

which is the aim of the game,

is to get the money out of the people.

is to get the money out of the people.

Hillsong has done a great job of monetizing the music.

It's been a tremendous revenue source for the ministry.

[female reporter] Young people are drawn to Hillsong's music.

The church has its own record label

that sold 16 million albums worldwide

and earns $100 million a year.

It's a mammoth amount of money.

[soft dramatic music playing]

[Tanya] And, you know, it's just about growth.

[Tanya] And, you know, it's just about growth.

It's about expansion.

They very much wanna spread their tentacles as far as they can.

Brian always said, "Without a vision, the people perish."

He had global expansion, intentions upfront,

explicit intentions to take over the world with his church.

[suspenseful music playing]

Hillsong is an incredibly successful organization.

You know, they have massive influence around the world.

And I can elaborate on that if you want.

I kind of categorized them into six Cs.

One, they're a Church.

[Brian] Proverbs 4, verse 25 says,

"Let your eyes look straight ahead."

[Bruce] Then they have the concerts.

Then CDs.

I would say music but I needed to keep my alliterations.

They have a leadership college.

Cinema, which would be the movie and other media.

Then they have their conferences.

From an organizational and marketing

and communication standpoint, brilliant.

You know, listen to my music on a Sunday.

Come to our church.

You like the church, come to our conference.

You like the church, come to our conference.

And they definitely feed on each other.

[Brian] This is a conference.

So conference is a conference,

but I've always felt like it was...

It's a movement.

So I went to the Hillsong conference

in Sydney, Australia.

And, you know, that ticket was 500 bucks.

And then I bought a bunch of stuff, you know?

So I probably spent $1,000 plus tithing.

Yeah, people have just been so willing to just keep on giving.

You can go and see Hillsong United in a stadium tour.

You can go and see Hillsong United in a stadium tour.

It's the same arena that Taylor Swift plays when she comes to town, right?

It's a huge experience, and it's a high production value,

and ticket sales are really high

and you can make a lot of money there.

[Craig] It's a money-making machine.

It has one purpose, to get hold of as much as your money as they can.

[Kelsey] Hillsong consistently says,

"We're not a business, we're a church."

But they behave exactly like a big Fortune 500 company.

In terms of the business model,

it's treating people as consumers.

It's like a sales funnel,

where you want to get the most amount of people

in the doors at the top of the funnel,

'cause inevitably that'll lead to more conversions

or more donations, however you measure success within your church.

Hillsong is much more about selling you things.

They sell you CDs, obviously, first and foremost.

They sell you CDs, obviously, first and foremost.

They sell you self-help courses.

They sell you books.

They sell you inspiration to live in this world,

and they're obviously very good at it.

Brian realized that it's all about the products that you're creating,

and it's all about the brand.

He's a spiritual entrepreneur.

He's, you know, effectively the CEO of a spiritual company.

The rub is, is it okay for us to use...

The rub is, is it okay for us to use...

God as a way to profit?

I don't have the answer,

but we're not supposed to make consumers,

we're supposed to make disciples.

[cheering]

[soft music playing]

Brian Houston had his sights on expanding globally.

By the end of the 2000s,

By the end of the 2000s,

they really wanted to get into the US market.

So by 2010, they made that move.

[Brian] We are a visionary church and I love it.

And many people here, you love it.

But not everybody loves it.

Your dream is gonna threaten some people.

And I really genuinely believe

the Holy Spirit put it in my heart

that the day would come when he would give me

and give us, Hillsong Church, influence in America.

And I just couldn't see how that could happen.

And I just couldn't see how that could happen.

I felt like a speck.

This is a country of over 300 million people.

But I've learned to trust God.

[female reporter] One wildly popular megachurch from Australia

is making its mark here in the United States.

[upbeat music playing]

[Hannah] In New York, you had, you know, the backdrop of the city

and you were also able to rent big venues and have the services there.

and you were also able to rent big venues and have the services there.

Hillsong's main venue in New York City as a concert venue

in Manhattan, Irving Plaza.

My name is Janice Lagata.

I was a member of Hillsong NYC for seven years, I think.

And this is where we first had church.

On Saturday night, there'd be a concert.

So on Sunday morning, it was just basically coming in early,

turning this bar, this nightclub into a church.

There would be a long line going that way,

at least, till the end of the block and usually wrapping around.

And so having that kind of line there

and, you know, at a venue like this,

it looks like it's something cool.

It's New York and everybody wants to be

a part of whatever is going on.

So a lot of people...

I mean, just the curiosity, yeah.

It definitely worked.

You know, it's very interesting

when people talk about, you know,

planting a church in the middle of New York City.

planting a church in the middle of New York City.

Literally, a very small Christian population.

So why?

Well, there may not be many Christians,

but there's certainly plenty of sinners.

[upbeat music playing]

[sirens wailing]

They find people who are looking for answers,

looking for... Having personal struggles

and sought those people out and recruited them.

So what happens is, to the non-Christian

or the fringe Christian, if you will,

or the fringe Christian, if you will,

the non-believer who gets dragged to church

by his or her friend to listen to this music

and then this wonderful motivational speech,

they're like, "Oh, this is Christianity. This is easy.

This is...

You know, this is cool church,

where we all gather together as a community

to where you'll have to deal with your sin

because no one really ask about it."

That sounds good to young people.

[woman] Hillsong have good worship music.

I think it's really approachable.

Like it's not very in your face, like hymns and songs.

Like it's very easy to get into.

I used to go to Hillsong. I went to Hillsong for about a year.

And it was like...

I wasn't that connected spiritually,

but I sort of went into it, like, "Okay, it's like a really dope TED Talk,"

and I would cry every single time,

but it was a really life-changing experience.

I actually used to go to some of their events when I was younger

I actually used to go to some of their events when I was younger

and going through my life crisis.

It's very emotional, I feel like,

for a lot of people, and that really like...

Even if you're just kind of there and unsure of things...

Which I was young.

I was looking for, you know, community and stuff like that.

It can be really like addicting in the best sense of the word.

[Brando] Hillsong at the time that they were starting the New York plant,

I knew Hillsong itself was like anti-homosexual,

I knew Hillsong itself was like anti-homosexual,

the no sex before marriage, all those things.

I knew that they were that still,

but it was always about purpose.

It was always about trying to fulfill your dreams

and getting people of my age group,

which was early 20s, early mid-20s,

to serve one another, serve your community.

That right there was exactly what I needed

for social interaction was to be at a church,

a megachurch, that's full of people

and getting connected that way.

and getting connected that way.

Another thing that Hillsong has done really well

is what I call nightclub rules.

They're very good at understanding

that to get young men into a church,

it's very handy to have a lot of young women.

They're very good in saying, "Hey, this is church done our way.

This is different to what your grandmother's church is.

You know, if you don't like it, that's cool,

but just come along and enjoy yourself."

And that really worked out.

[Ben] It goes back to demographics. It goes back to marketing.

[Ben] It goes back to demographics. It goes back to marketing.

It goes back to a well-thought-out business plan.

The people that the system benefits really, really get rewarded.

You know, if you're a charismatic and outgoing person who's...

You know, who can really bring the crowds in

and get the money out of people.

You're gonna be very successful in Hillsong,

and that's what happened in the case with Carl Lentz.

We're pretty confident you've never met a pastor like Carl Lentz.

We're pretty confident you've never met a pastor like Carl Lentz.

GMA cover story, Carl Lentz.

-[reporter 1] Carl Lentz. -[reporter 2] Carl Lentz.

-Can I get an amen? -Amen.

-Please welcome... -[woman] Pastor Carl Lentz.

[cheers and applause]

My name is Carl Lentz.

I pastor Hillsong New York City.

I'm from Virginia. Not everybody affiliated with us,

you know, Hillsong, is Australian.

[Elle] Carl Lentz came out from America

and trained at Hillsong College when he was younger.

Brian Houston had his sights on global expansion for 30 years now.

And I think when he saw Carl Lentz,

he realized he'd hit the jackpot.

Carl does have this X factor.

Carl does have this X factor.

I have gum 'cause I break rules.

I'm not supposed to have gum but I do it anyway.

[Ben] He's in shape. He's attractive.

I was showing my friend a photo of Carl

when I first started reporting on Hillsong

and she thought he was from the Jersey Shore.

I mean, he's clearly a man who cares a lot about his body

and his presentation and his appearance.

He dresses well.

He was always about the tattoos, the trendy stubble, jeans,

leather jacket, that sort of thing,

leather jacket, that sort of thing,

and it shows a different way of doing things

and it makes you feel that your belief system is valid in the modern world.

But this is the way you dress normally and--

No, I normally have a collar and robe.

-You do? Uh-huh. -No, I'm kidding.

-This is it. -[laughter]

He smiled a lot. It was very, you know, smooth.

[Craig] He was the face, very good-looking guy.

You know, he was a very, very charming guy.

Had beautiful wife, beautiful children.

It was just like, wow, this...

You know, this guy is... He's really something.

No, I'm not the same. I don't think the same.

No, I'm not the same. I don't think the same.

I don't talk the same. And I don't know

if greatness is in my future, but I do know

that I feel God's hand on my life

and I'm trying to find ways to tell people about it.

Carl is a very, very charismatic person on stage.

I mean, did you all watch the royal wedding,

a couple of months back? Anybody?

I didn't either because we,

in America, you know, we have one king.

His name is Jesus. Carl, get over it.

Sometimes it's like you're acting a fool a little bit, but it's totally fine.

Like it makes you feel more comfortable

when someone is being goofy on stage

or cool or suave or whatever it is.

He had a way of like connecting

and making people in the audience feel at ease.

He brought a very fresh, charismatic, fiery energy.

I can actually embrace the teachings of Jesus.

I can embrace his grace. Where are you sitting at?

Are you hand shaking yourself in your sleeping roll?

Carl clearly changed the way

that many of us saw how church could be done.

[female reporter] And some New Yorkers can't seem to get enough

[female reporter] And some New Yorkers can't seem to get enough

of their unlikely pastor.

Carl Lentz, I mean, he's drawing people in to Hillsong New York.

You should see that line on a Sunday morning.

So Hillsong East Coast YouTube. Subscribe if you haven't yet.

But let's face it,

they're not coming there for sound doctrine.

They're not coming there to be fed the Word.

They're coming there to see the cool Carl Lentz.

Ain't it amazing what God has done?

And I have a feeling that the best is yet to come.

And I have a feeling that the best is yet to come.

[woman] I don't like to say like celebrity pastors,

but I do feel like there is that kind of celebrity pastor

environment that we're living in right now.

But I found out about Carl

and knew that I wanted to attend this church when I came to go to NYU.

That guy was iconic. It was the glasses.

[laughs] Like he just was like really...

He was really confident, but you can tell that

it was coming from like a super authentic place.

Like he was someone that was genuine and he...

He'd been through [bleep] but he had confidence and he could get you engaged.

He'd been through [bleep] but he had confidence and he could get you engaged.

I mean, personally, yeah, it was cool when other pastors came,

but when it was Carl, I was like...

"I'm glad I came to the 7:00 p.m.," you know?

A few years ago, I started an Instagram account

showing megachurch pastors wearing expensive sneakers.

I noticed that there were a whole slew of pastors

and worship leaders that were wearing

and worship leaders that were wearing

the most expensive streetwear out there,

Supreme, Off-White, Jordan Collabs,

Gucci, Louis Vuitton, all these incredibly expensive brands.

And I called it preachersnsneakers.

It was not meant to do anything

other than just to make your friends laugh for a second and move on.

And then in four weeks, I had 100,000 followers.

So I'm just in the middle of this, watching this account grow,

not knowing what I stepped into, but knowing that there was

something important happening because people were freaking out.

something important happening because people were freaking out.

I think that everybody just had this

thought in their mind, like, "Hey, it seems like

these guys are getting rich off of the gospel,"

or, "It seems like these guys

are just building their own brand

while also asking for donations,"

or, "Like it seems like these guys are

making serious cheddar off of a role

that is funded by sacrificial donations

of people that are trying to further the kingdom."

of people that are trying to further the kingdom."

And so the sneakers were just the way into that.

My first post about Carl Lentz

was a picture from his Instagram

where he's wearing some Nike Air Fear of God sneakers,

and the shoes, at the time, were reselling for like $800.

And then I posted another picture of him

wearing a Supreme x Louis Vuitton hoodie.

And what do you do in this conference, hanging out?

Yeah, we've been hanging.

Yeah, we've been hanging.

Wearing Supreme sweaters.

-Just wearing sweaters. -Just living the dream.

-You've been living the dream, honestly, right? -We have been.

That hoodie, at the time,

I think was on the resale market

for like $10,000 or $15,000.

The prices were insane.

I'm a big fan of my church.

And even though it's got like 10,000 members,

they're transparent about their money.

And I think that should be the minimum expectation

of a church that's bringing in $100 million a year.

of a church that's bringing in $100 million a year.

I'm pointing out the standard and saying,

"Collectively, are we all okay with this?

As Christians specifically, are we..."

Maybe this is the best way to do church.

Like maybe this is the best way to treat our pastors,

by showering them with gifts and private jets

and courtside seats and all that kind of stuff.

But have you ever... questioned if it actually is the best way?

And people would get mad at me for that.

And people would get mad at me for that.

"So I'm sure that all the money

that you're profiting from assassinating pastors

and Christian leaders is all being tithed to God, huh, Ben?

I'm sure that God isn't watching

or keeping record of your angelic Lucifer-like actions and healing words."

There was one guy, he wanted to fight me

over the fact that I had posted about Brian Houston

over the fact that I had posted about Brian Houston

wearing a pair of $500 Gucci sneaks

on his own TV show.

I think it was a good picture about the loyalty

that some of the people that go to Hillsong

displayed to the team or to the people that were at the top.

Carl reached out to me through a mutual friend.

He basically indicated like, "Hey, Carl will be open to talking with you."

I ran this account anonymously for two years.

I ran this account anonymously for two years.

Most people didn't know who I was.

Every news agency is calling me, trying to figure out who I am.

The New York Times is saying like,

"Hey, you know, we're the newspaper of records.

This would be a good time for you to reveal your identity,"

and I passed.

The Today show asked me to come on and I passed.

But I'll never forget this when Carl and I got on the phone,

the first thing that he said to me was like,

"So who am I talking with, man?"

I mean, let's level with each other."

I just said, "My name is Ben."

And so he got my name.

I somehow trusted him

I somehow trusted him

from the first moment we spoke and I think that's...

I guess, that's just like a testament to how good he is with people.

So we had a real conversation on the phone.

He texted me a few times.

He kind of like went back and forth

between like, "Hey, I disagree with what you're doing.

Basically, like it's an unfair spotlight to put on people,"

and I thought that was fair,

but at the same time, he leveled with me.

but at the same time, he leveled with me.

He was like, "Hey, I get it. I get the question.

I get, you know, why people are upset. I've been asked this before.

Like I've been asked worst things. That kind of thing.

Now, it's like anything,

when you humanize somebody, it makes it a little harder

to treat them the same way as you were before online.

As a guy that feels things, like I...

That made me more conflicted about it.

[mellow music playing]

In the early days, being a stage manager,

In the early days, being a stage manager,

I was one of the people he just saw all the time.

So we just kind of clicked and... I don't know.

There's something about when he shook my hand.

The way he looks at you, I was like, "Oh, okay.

Like I'd follow this guy anywhere."

Like he just seems so, so genuine.

There are just some people who just have that thing

where they can just connect with people really well, and he's got that.

I think people can get into preaching for the right reasons

I think people can get into preaching for the right reasons

and with the best of intentions.

But getting the fame and getting the attention,

as a species, like we are not good with power.

You can keep your new normal.

I'm going after supernatural revival.

I'm not gonna stop my own growth until I get there.

Like power corrupts.

I will not slow down.

[upbeat music playing]

[Tanya] Carl Lentz was a very young man

when he studied at Bible college.

I believe he was 21 years old.

You know, he was very quickly brought into this system

because Brian Houston can profile people so well

and can tell, you know, who's gonna play the game and who's gonna resist it.

Carl was able to break into these fears

Carl was able to break into these fears

that would have never welcomed Brian Houston

or any other '90s preacher.

Brian Houston saw that charisma

and just chose that path for him.

Forget about going after the loss.

We got trouble loving the fact.

Brian took a liking to him straight away.

He could see his potential.

Brian was like salivating over him in the early interviews.

Well, he hit the jackpot

for someone with so much charisma

and so much appeal, who was willing to work so hard

and so much appeal, who was willing to work so hard

and putting the hours in, you know,

really sacrifice his life and become somebody else for Hillsong.

Early on, I knew there was this guy who was,

you know, a charismatic leader of this church.

I don't think I would have been able to put a name to him

until his very oddly close relationship with Justin Bieber.

-That's why we are okay. -I just wanna love people more.

I just wanna love Carl more.

I just wanna love Carl more.

You're doing a good job with that.

-I'm so-- -You're the man.

So for a few years, Justin Bieber

was very visibly in the news for having some like kind of TMZ-type moments.

All right. The first case this afternoon is Justin Bieber.

What'd you say? [bleep]

Get the [bleep] out of here.

So his career was starting to be defined by those antics.

And Carl tried to get him to work on himself,

work on his faith, that kind of thing.

work on his faith, that kind of thing.

My faith grows every day.

Carl ended up famously baptizing him

and Tyson Chandler, who's an NBA player, in his bathtub.

It was awesome. It was a cool...

It's a cool memory for all of us.

[Ben] If you're hanging out with Bieber,

all mainstream media is gonna pay attention.

Like who is this ripped dude that Bieber is hanging out with on the beach?

He mainstreamed the church even more.

It wasn't just this Australian startup

that's popular for its music anymore.

It was Justin Bieber's church.

They got write-ups in GQ magazine,

They got write-ups in GQ magazine,

in music magazines,

in all sorts of popular press.

I mean, getting that crossover is huge.

That would have, you know, increased the numbers,

increased their social media followers,

all the things that ultimately they want

to transform society into their vision.

[dramatic music playing]

Celebrities love Hillsong.

Selena Gomez used to be a congregant.

-You went to Hillsong? -Yes.

Our friend Carl Lentz, who we love--

-Yes. We loved him. -I was just texting him.

-Yes. -[Hannah] Kevin Durant.

[Brando] The Jackman family,

Bono, Lenny Kravitz.

These are the people that I've run into at Irving.

[Ben] Kendall Jenner was pretty involved.

Carl's church was that famous group.

All the famous people. That was really his church.

There's just this obvious culture at Hillsong

of celebrity worship.

of celebrity worship.

[Craig] Again, that's the marketing ploy.

When that word gets around, it's kind of like a restaurant.

"Oh, you know... you know,

somebody famous came in last night."

Then you'll see... Now with social media especially,

you'll see more people in that restaurant

the next night than you've ever seen before

because a celebrity was there the night before.

Hillsong is the same way. "Oh, I might see Justin Bieber."

I did know that Justin Bieber goes to a Hillsong Church. It's exciting.

It's like nice to see celebrities

that go to a church that I also attend.

that go to a church that I also attend.

[Hannah] Hillsong was catering to the celebrities very consciously

and I think the celebrities were receptive.

Hillsong comes along and offers this place

where you can be religious but not stuffy.

There's this idea of like, you know, "Oh, you've got a sex tape?

Cool. You love Jesus?

Even better." Like, you know, there...

There's this malleable thing about Hillsong.

On the other side, you've got Hillsong

which is looking for a way to be in the media.

which is looking for a way to be in the media.

Celebrity does that reliably every time, right?

It's been called the Church of the Stars for its celebrity following.

The goal of our church is from the nameless to the famous.

Our church should have celebrities, we believe,

'cause we're trying to reach everybody.

That's one of our goals.

Was it a lucky coincidence that Bieber got involved with Hillsong?

I'm gonna have to be a bit of a cynic,

given that I feel very sure

that it was part of the Hillsong strategy to attract celebrities

that it was part of the Hillsong strategy to attract celebrities

and to make them sort of front and center of their branding.

[Tanya] I mean, I think it benefited both of them, didn't it?

Bieber was like, you know,

leaving monkeys behind in other countries

and pissing in bucket... Mop buckets and stuff.

And, you know, the bad boy thing

for Justin Bieber was wearing thin.

He needed to look like he'd had this great time of faith

and, well, he's turning over a new leaf.

So they really worked out well for each other at exactly the right moment.

So they really worked out well for each other at exactly the right moment.

Is it possible they just ran into each other

on the same day? Yes. I'm not...

I think it's far more likely that Carl Lentz

saw an opportunity in Justin Bieber and took it.

When people have the aura of celebrity reflected on them,

you're suddenly very attractive to lots of women.

[Hannah] Yeah, he looks like a hunk.

There's photos of him walking around with Justin Bieber where Justin Bieber looks bad.

To me, that is inherently duplicitous or hypocritical,

To me, that is inherently duplicitous or hypocritical,

whether it's the desire to be close to fame

or other very much earthly desires.

Mmm-hmm.

[producer speaking]

-[Joe] There's the preacher. -[man] Yeah.

[Joe] Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

What's going on with his [bleep] shorts?

No! Any guy who's showing [bleep] groove,

No! Any guy who's showing [bleep] groove,

you're doing that 'cause you're trying to get laid.

Jesus does not want you dressing like that.

The motivation seems to have been to use celebrity,

use glamor to amass a following,

to amass power, to amass fame.

Someone like Carl Lentz, who has these goals in mind

and saw an opportunity to bring Bieber onboard,

and saw an opportunity to bring Bieber onboard,

this may be a jump that's unfair to Carl Lentz,

but it's absolutely the scientology strategy.

If you wanna raise your profile

and get eyes on you, you get a celebrity and,

you know, that's sort of, you know, 101 stuff.

[Ben] I mean, this guy is seemingly friends with all of these people.

And so it's impressive that he was able to build a network like that.

And so it's impressive that he was able to build a network like that.

And it's an influential network.

It's like this person was able to somehow influence his way

into some of the most powerful circles ever

as a guy that represents the gospel, teaches the gospel.

But then at the same time, for a lot of people,

it looks like it was just a tool

to build his own personal network.

[dramatic music playing]

My name is Dale Smith and I did security for Hillsong.

I grew up Southern Baptist.

I've been to several churches, so that's what I expected.

[organ music playing]

I do recall the very first day, I looked at my partner.

I'm like, "Are we sure this is a church?"

Your venue in New York

has thousands, not hundreds, like thousands, weekly.

You're with rock stars.

You're with athletes.

And you have VIPs coming in who get special treatment.

[man] Stars and athletes and stuff like that.

And you did see... And there was sort of

like a tiered system when you were there.

Like, you know, they sat like in the front.

It was sort of like being in a, you know, Jewish synagogue.

It's like if you pay, you sat in the front

and, you know, if you didn't pay, you sat in the back.

The reserved seating just got progressively

more and more and just more intense.

When I first started serving, I accidentally sat a visitor

that was coming in to participate in church in the VIP section.

that was coming in to participate in church in the VIP section.

And one of the folks that was a leader

pulled me off to the corner and scolds me for it

and told me that we don't put normal people in the VIP section.

I would always wonder where would Jesus sit if he was here?

Would he be allowed in the green room and the VIP seats?

You know, it's just... What are we doing here?

[man] Thank you guys for waiting.

We didn't expect to be at capacity already.

That is how Christianity is then.

We're all looking to figure out what caste we're in.

It's like if you have this idea of VIP, this needs...

It's like if you have this idea of VIP, this needs...

These Christians need to have special treatment.

It's tiered.

I mean, it's classes.

They have banners that say welcome home

and you belong, come as you are,

but there's terms and conditions to my welcome.

Doesn't feel like a church. It feels like a business or a concert.

And, particularly, when Pastor Carl came down.

[dramatic music playing]

So on a day when Pastor Carl will come down from New York

and preach at the service, come in using a limo.

and preach at the service, come in using a limo.

Excitement everywhere. Much like the president's coming to town.

-[woman] Hi. Welcome to the palace. -[Carl] Good to be here.

All the volunteers were on high alert. High alert.

Typically, his advance man security would come.

We'd walk around the venue,

give them the lay of the land.

Once he hit that stage, pure rock star.

I pray that in your life you are not missing a move of God.

He will bless your life, he will magnify your voice,

He will bless your life, he will magnify your voice,

and He will give you ground you have not asked.

The second he was off, he's right into the car and off to the next venue.

You know, as security, you don't draw judgments.

I'm there to protect the venue and everybody.

But I am not familiar with that type of relationship

between a preacher and the congregation.

Any church I've been involved with,

I can walk in my pastor's office.

Their door is certainly open, especially after a sermon,

Their door is certainly open, especially after a sermon,

and that just didn't happen when Pastor Carl was there.

[woman] Is Carl the next Brian Houston, the next Joel Osteen?

Could well be. Carl, obviously, you know,

he's a magnetic, attractive guy.

I mean, his tattoos are a problem but--

You don't like the tattoos?

Uh, they're okay. They're okay.

Yeah. Great.

Thanks, Bobby, for bringing that up.

It was like... There was a separation.

It was like you didn't think of Hillsong Church and Brian Houston anymore.

It was like you didn't think of Hillsong Church and Brian Houston anymore.

You thought of Hillsong Church and Carl Lentz.

The Hillsong Band is what got him here.

But then Carl became bigger than what Hillsong was.

[beeping]

Carl made himself untouchable.

There have been pastors that have...

begun to outshine the boss.

And I think that's what happened in the case with Carl Lentz.

It was always like, "Be careful, man."

It was always like, "Be careful, man."

Because the only thing everyone likes more than

a rising star is a falling star, right?

Eventually, the stardom's gonna catch up with you.

[Craig] Carl Lentz, I mean, think about it.

He's one of the top revenue streams in the organization.

If you got any reason to be grateful,

why don't you give Jesus a shout of praise,

you just stir it up a little bit tonight.

His franchise location is pulling down probably more than

any other franchise location in the world.

Carl Lentz is the superstar.

This is the kingdom

that Carl Lentz wants to be a part of.

that Carl Lentz wants to be a part of.

Wherever Jesus went, there were absolute throngs of people

trying to get to him.

He craved that sort of notoriety, that sort of celebrity.

Every university felt it. Every club felt it. Every prison felt it.

Every place of people will love it.

I think that narcissism and control

does not have a place in a pastor position.

He should probably be a comedian,

He should probably be a comedian,

maybe even a public speaker.

But the pastor is supposed to serve.

A pastor is supposed to protect.

A pastor is supposed to love.

A pastor is not seeking his own attention

and his own titles and...

You name it.

Judging from the godlike behavior

that I witnessed,

100% percent, I do.

Carl is definitely a narcissist.

Carl is definitely a narcissist.

I think you have to be a narcissist

to succeed with any megachurch.

The Lord is my shepherd and I lack nothing.

He is so full of himself with arrogance.

And that's a big problem, you know,

because he's the founder

of this very dangerous, charismatic movement

that young people are really attracted to.

The worst culture gets,

the better it is for us,

because people are...

They're not buying what culture is selling

They're not buying what culture is selling

like they used to.

People are looking for real answers.

[Brando] They bring you in with culture

and so getting it in with music

and our age group, our clothes,

I mean, everyone started dressing

the exact same way as Carl Lentz.

It is a very great word.

Idolizing is the perfect word

because Carl Lentz became a cult leader

to a bunch of people like me

that ended up trying to follow

into this thing of,

into this thing of,

"I want to be big and powerful and cool

and have people wanna be on fire for something

and lead people."

Yes. Oh, yeah.

A cult is when I tell you what to think

and if you think any different,

-you're gone. -Hmm.

That's a cult.

We preach the opposite.

Actually, you should go home and question what I preach.

You should look it up in your own Bible.

Is creating a brand or an idol out of a pastor

or preacher problematic?

I think so.

And if the church's whole thing

is based on that one guy or girl,

one really impressive,

attractive, entertaining, talented person

that is doing great

but is one misstep away

but is one misstep away

from literally imploding the entire thing,

your ministry is now eroded.

It's built on sand in a lot of ways.

Hillsong has tremendous leaders

in so many different churches.

Of course that's led to a lot of celebrity.

But at the core of it, at the heart of it,

is a church that I believe

is genuinely a work of God.

It helps people to believe that

It helps people to believe that

there is a God who loves them and cares for them

and has a plan for their lives.

But fame, popularity,

we've always had to deal with that

as pastors become well-known,

you know, the old cliche is

you have to watch out for the girls,

the gold, and the glory.

[Carl] Lord, keep my heart pure.

Keep my thoughts pure.

Any areas of my life that's stuck,

Any areas of my life that's stuck,

that's creeped in, Lord,

please help me keep these hands clean.

♪ You can run on For a long time ♪

♪ Run on for a long time ♪

♪ Sooner or later God will cut you down ♪

♪ Sooner or later God will cut you down ♪

[Ranin] Carl has a lot of blood on his hands,

you know, let's put it that way,

that he needs to clean.

that he needs to clean.

[Sammy] We are at our old stomping grounds,

Frank W. Cox High School.

And this is where Carl Lentz went to high school.

That's where I went to high school,

a few years apart.

-Speaking of the devil-- -[Sammy] Yeah.

[Jaclyn] I mean, right now, Wave Church.

[Jaclyn] I mean, right now, Wave Church.

[Sammy] Yes.

Where it all began.

I'm Jaclyn,

and I went to Wave Church for 17 years,

so from the time I was 17 till 34.

I'm Sammy.

I attended Wave Church for about eight years

and interned under Carl Lentz,

who was the pastor of the Young Adults Ministry

who was the pastor of the Young Adults Ministry

before Hillsong.

[Jaclyn] My kids still wave to the church when we go by.

-[Sammy] Really? -[Jaclyn] Yeah.

How are they about that?

They didn't understand, like,

why we left their friends, you know?

And that was the hardest part for us too,

was just leaving behind friendships.

I basically just had to explain like,

"Well, you know, Mommy didn't understand

that the way I was being led

was not the way God wanted us to be led."

Wave Church is a non-denominational church

in Virginia Beach.

Anything that's not faith is sin.

And with that--

Steve Kelly is the senior pastor at Wave Church.

So the Bible said, if you're gonna come to the God,

you're gonna come believing that He is.

Steve Kelly is an Australian citizen,

works at Hillsong Church for about a decade

and then moved to Virginia Beach

and then moved to Virginia Beach

to pastor this church.

That was in 2001.

I loved the people there.

I thought that it was very deep.

You know, I thought it was...

it was not super surface-y.

And I left every week feeling,

like, hopeful.

You can have hope without faith,

but you cannot have faith without hope.

but you cannot have faith without hope.

Eventually, this couple was introduced

and it was Carl Lentz and his beautiful wife Laura.

We went to the same high school.

He was three years older than me

and he knew my older sister.

So I only knew a little bit about him from my friends.

But he did have a reputation.

When I first met him at Wave,

he was like, "You have a sister, an older sister?"

And I was like, "Yeah."

And he was like, "Is she really pretty?"

And he was like, "Is she really pretty?"

And I was like, "Yeah, she's pretty."

And he was like, "Yeah. I think I remember her."

That kind of rubbed me strangely.

Like that's how you... that's how you know me now.

You know, I had only heard about his history,

but he was a spectacular basketball player

from what I hear.

And he went to Cox and NC State after that.

And his own words were, he was a player.

He used to tell us that

he was a little open with his past

and, you know, he let us know that

he had a life before Laura.

he had a life before Laura.

But he did end up at Hillsong Bible College in Australia

and that's where he met Laura.

When you go to Hillsong College,

it's because you probably wanna be a pastor.

He was definitely valuable.

More young adults started to be attracted

to his presence at the church.

to his presence at the church.

When they came, it was like a shiny new penny.

You know, they were both attractive.

Their relationship was attractive,

and they became our young adults pastors.

[crowd cheering]

How are you doing? Don't sit down.

You're crazy. We just started.

Everything changed after that.

When Carl came, it was definitely

a different atmosphere, culture, community.

a different atmosphere, culture, community.

The pastoral role definitely

was a completely different vibe.

What you're doing tonight is saying,

"Jesus, I'm walking out of what was

into what is about to be."

I started to definitely notice

a little bit of control.

My dad told me something pretty brilliant,

you can look it up. It's true now.

I think over 90% of a young woman's identity

comes from the words of her father.

And my dad said, "You got to get a hold of your girl

And my dad said, "You got to get a hold of your girl

before everybody else.

You got to tell her who she is."

The previous pastor was...

way more gentle and compassionate

and understanding around relationship dynamics.

So I did notice there was a major contrast.

There was a lot of dating rules.

There was a lot of dating rules.

You know, being in a relationship,

there was a whole lot of restrictions around it.

I'll give you a few.

I think it was, "You date for a whole year

before you have your first kiss

and then you don't say I love you until you propose."

[Sammy] He smiled a lot.

It was very, you know, smooth.

He was easy to get along to

as long as you did what you were told.

I do remember feeling like we were put in our place.

And, you know, this is...

And, you know, this is...

this is what you do if you serve as a woman.

These are the ways you behave

and this is the way you dress.

It did feel very strict.

There's no little bit of sex and a little bit of purity.

We gotta really live what we believe in.

I did feel like in general,

purity just came up a lot in preaching by Carl.

And yeah, it was just basically just like,

"You basically are gonna have us in your business, lady."

You can't have a little bit of you,

You can't have a little bit of you,

a little bit of me and a little bit of Jesus.

This is not a cocktail.

But now, again, as an older adult...

I hate to say I'm an older adult, but I do.

I look at it and I'm like, "Wow.

If he was so concerned with these things,

like, there must be an underlying root."

And I know it's kind of random to talk about purity.

Normally, we leave this to the high schoolers.

Guess what? It still matters when you run in churches.

[Doreen] I was at Wave for a few years

before Carl left.

The impression I always have of him,

I remember I would go to leaders' meetings

and he would hammer in our heads,

and he would hammer in our heads,

"Do not have sex before marriage."

He was aggressive about it.

Lord, keep my heart pure.

Keep my thoughts pure.

Any areas of my life that's stuck,

that's creeped in, Lord,

please help me keep these hands clean.

[Doreen] All I could think was,

"Man, this guy probably had a lot of sex before marriage."

I think it's this concept,

you know, the psychological phenomena of therapists

who have all these issues

but instead of getting help for their issues,

but instead of getting help for their issues,

they're like, "Hey, let me tell other people

they need to get help."

Because when you're so vehemently

trying to get a point across,

all you're doing is not making your point.

All you're doing is like pointing to yourself.

Hey, girl. Hi.

I appreciate you.

I'm glad I know you

and I just don't have a lot of words

and I just don't have a lot of words

or energy or anything.

I don't know which way is up right now.

I can't sleep. I'm struggling.

But if I'm within 10 miles of you,

I'll come and see you.

[Ranin] A lot of the time, he will send me videos

speaking to the camera because if he will text me,

I will not respond.

So for him to create emotions,

he will send a video so I can see his face.

Yeah. So I hit you...

um...

can I get a moment?

It's a long video.

It is what it is.

It is what it is.

Appreciate you.

So I'll talk to you soon for sure.

Bye.

[Ranin] It started in May.

It was a Friday.

I was at the park by my house.

I remember he was leaning on the bench, stretching.

He was just looking at me.

You kind of feel like, you know,

when a man like looks at you different,

watching you and there's like this energy

that is hard to explain.

He keeps staring.

It was 6:00 almost

and the sun is about to go down.

I was like, "Okay. I think it's time for me to go."

And he start walking with me.

So we were, like, we had a nice chat.

He said to me, "You're from the Middle East.

The most beautiful women come from the Middle East."

The most beautiful women come from the Middle East."

And then we kept walking

and he asked me a bunch of questions.

I was like, "We just met

like, you know, you need to chill."

We walked towards at the end of the... of the park

and I was like, "Yeah, I'm gonna...

I'm gonna go this way,"

and he's like, "Yeah, I'm gonna go that way."

And he grabbed his phone and he said...

He asked me to write my information,

but I wrote it on his note... on his note section.

Um...

I felt really weird because

usually when guys ask me for my number,

they don't put it on their notes.

I said, "Can you send me your last name

because I would, like, to save you in the phone."

He said, "Oh, you know...you know,

like, when people Google people it's like...

It's not a good look.

It's better to get to know the person

before you look them up."

I'm like, "That was the weirdest answer I ever heard."

But I'm very picky

when it comes to who I'm attracted to

and I know that with this situation,

it was very different.

I did feel attracted to him.

And he said, "I'll text you later.

If you're free we can... we can have some tequila."

That's what he said.

And I was like, "Okay. Sounds good."

So I walked home and I...

At this point, I had to, like, look him up.

At this point, I had to, like, look him up.

I was like, "Oh, my God.

I'm gonna find out this person.

I mean, I'm not gonna hang out with him tomorrow

if I don't know who he is.

So I went to... I went online

and I found this way to, like, look up numbers

and that can give you everything about this person.

And when it did come up, and I was like,

"Oh, my God. I've seen this guy before."

I've seen him when I went to the church.

What do I want more?

Do I want this happy, worldly, fleshly stuff

Do I want this happy, worldly, fleshly stuff

or do I actually want more of Jesus?

[Ranin] When I was going through a divorce,

my good friend took me there

because I was really depressed and I was going through it.

Matthew Chapter Five.

Do we have anybody who's, like, brand new to our church

to check this stuff out

and see that it'll give you a way.

It was funny to me how, like, I got to see this individual

or kind of know of him years ago

and all of a sudden

he's in front of my face, right?

He messaged me.

[phone beeps]

[Ranin] I said to him, "Are you married?"

[Ranin] I said to him, "Are you married?"

And he said, "Yes." And I said, "For how long?"

He said, "For 17 years."

And, like, at the end of the day,

we all end up falling to a place

where we're attracted to something,

and then, you kind of play yourself

because, you know, you go...

You're walking into where you shouldn't be walking.

When something is unreachable, you want it more, right?

He end up coming to my house.

I told him, "Listen, you know, I'm not judging you,

but I wanted to tell you that I have looked you up

and I know who you are."

I just wanted to know, like,

there is anything wrong with your relationship?

Why are you here?

Like, why are you in this position,

like, when you're sitting in my house?

He was like, "I never have done this before.

There's nothing wrong in my relationship."

He's like, "I know when I see someone

and like when I saw you,

like, you have everything I want in a woman."

like, you have everything I want in a woman."

For me it's like very odd.

I feel attracted to this individual.

Obviously, this is a danger zone,

but then also ask yourself, why will be me,

the girl that saw him

when I was broken in 2013.

Then years after, the same person,

you see him at the park

like what is the coincidence that happens?

Because he keeps saying a lot that

we're so similar me and him,

that we found each other because we're both broken.

And there is sense in that when he said it,

And there is sense in that when he said it,

because I'm a very big believer

that those coincidence are made to happen,

like, I think I did had a purpose here.

Something in me told me like this is...

this is like such a huge and strong connection.

We met on Friday, Saturday,

I saw him briefly at the park.

And then Sunday evening when he came to my house.

That was the first time that we actually got to, like...

We got to kiss.

Oh, hey, girl.

Oh, hey, girl.

Hi.

Hey, girl, I'm just flipping through my Bible

and it's incomplete

because I'm in the Book of Numbers

and yours isn't in there.

Hey, girl.

[Doreen] Yes, a number of times.

I had a friend who Carl tried to sleep with her.

It was a very, very known thing about Carl.

I think people like him

are just very intuitive

are just very intuitive

of where they can go to prey,

P-R-E-Y.

My interactions with Carl

quickly became negative by, like, 19.

Me and the guy that I was dating,

we'd been dating a year at least and we...

I don't wanna say fell into sin

because we made a decision

to, you know, have an intimate moment.

I mean, we both felt guilty immediately after.

We were so young

and we really did love the Lord.

and we really did love the Lord.

We really did.

And we loved each other too.

At the end of a service,

there's usually an invitation

to ask Jesus to come into your life for the first time

or to return back to your faith

if you've left it.

There's an invitation to come out of your seat

and come down to the front.

My boyfriend raised his hand

at the end of the service for the altar call.

And I'm like, "Crap."

And I'm like, "Crap."

So I raised my hand and we went forward together.

Then there's an invitation

to a room that's a little quieter.

It was me and my boyfriend, Carl Lentz.

No female was present and Carl led the discussion.

So we shared that we had slept together.

We were very forthcoming about our sin.

It was literally one time

and Carl asked, "Did you use protection?"

And I interrupted, "Yes."

You know, like, of course we use protection, you know.

And his next response was,

"Huh, well then it was premeditated."

There's nothing good that is gonna come out

of that conversation with Carl

when you're admitting your fault,

but I kind of expected

a different response from him,

a different response from him,

to be honest.

I just went from

sharing something so personal with you,

and now my answer,

you're using it to shame me and condemn me.

It went from listening to then,

"You are off the worship team for six months and choir,

you are off your team," what he was doing.

"We do not think you guys should date.

"We do not think you guys should date.

You should not text, call for at least six months."

And, yeah, I mean, it still chokes me up

because we could have walked out of that meeting

and said, "F this place." [laughs]

Baby, let's go somewhere else.

We can find another church.

But no, we walked out of that service

and we were broken up.

We were conditioned.

When you go to this church

and it's this prosperity, success,

like this is what we're chasing...

it doesn't seem controlling

to submit certain things.

So it's very easy, is my point.

It's very easy.

It was very easy for me to submit.

It was very easy for me to submit.

[man] Can you give us a timeline

of how long you and Carl were together?

Five... It was five months.

So me and Carl were together for like five months.

He kept coming to my house.

Then at some point, he took off his necklace.

He was wearing an eagle pendant,

and he gave me the pendant and he started crying

and he said he feels

and he said he feels

something about him not being vulnerable,

but being around me make him feel vulnerable.

I mean, later on, I realized it's bull [bleep]

people that went to the church say

he cries all the time on stage.

I remember sitting there tears on my eyes.

I don't know why I'm so weepy.

I love people.

If you're wondering about emotionally unstable, absolutely.

-This is fake. -[laughing]

It's all for show.

[Ranin] I got to know him

[Ranin] I got to know him

more than I think anybody else got to know him.

And I think...

he was the main...

He was the character of his own show

and then I was a...

I was just an add-on, you know?

He always wanted to feel like he's somebody.

You know, I never have been part

of the Christian culture like that.

I don't know what he really does at the church.

All I know is that his persona, his chaos,

All I know is that his persona, his chaos,

brought chaos in to my life.

Those who live according to the flesh

have their mind set on what the flesh desires.

The mind governed by the flesh is death,

but the mind governed by the spirit is life in peace.

[Jaclyn] With that whole purity thing,

when you mess up,

it's not like there's no hope

because then there's...

But there's marriage.

But there's marriage.

So marriage is the new shiny penny.

After Carl had the conversation with us,

there wasn't really a lot of closure for me and that guy.

Fast forward to my first marriage,

which was only a year later.

That same broken, immature girl is now married.

I married after being with him for three months

because we had sex and we were...

we were basically gonna be asked

we were basically gonna be asked

to break up or whatever.

And so we ran off

and went to the courthouse and got married.

It was either me coming forward again with,

"I had sex again,"

or coming back with husband.

That relationship was definitely,

you know, difficult

for a 21-year-old and a 23-year-old to handle

and we were married about seven or eight years.

And, you know, that ended very hard.

And, you know, that was... that was very difficult.

And, you know, that was... that was very difficult.

♪ We are lost ♪

♪ Woo ♪

♪ Yeah ♪

♪ Hallelujah ♪

I'm 41, been married for 16 years

and we were... Yeah, thank you.

Yeah, 16 years.

It's incredible.

Marriage is not easy, it's just awesome.

Marriage is not easy, it's just awesome.

[Ranin] Throughout the months that we were seeing each other,

it got to the point where I started to realize

he does things that is always convenient for him.

He always gives a timeframe when he can do things.

I fell into the... A place where, like,

I will wanted to hang out, you know, with him

and then he wouldn't be able to do that.

And it's starting to occur to me

that it's always his way or no way.

It got to the point where I will send him novels

of like, "Goodbye.

of like, "Goodbye.

I wish I never met you on the park."

We used to argue a lot.

And when I started to pull back and say,

"I don't want this anymore, leave me alone,"

he wants to know that if he's...

If you're walking away from him,

he's not gonna let you walk away.

He needs to be the first one.

We have like an outlandishly

complex relationship

and nothing has ever been normal.

[Ranin] The more you say no to him,

the more he kept coming back.

[Carl] Here's my dilemma, I miss you.

I was thinking about you,

I was thinking about you,

wondering if you're okay today.

And didn't know if I should text

or if it's worse for me to check, not check.

So you're starting to understand this person

cannot lose a battle.

If it's okay from time to time

for me to let you know I'm thinking about you

and hope you're okay, I would like to.

I'm genuinely asking you what's...

What do you want me to do?

Because if it's easier for you just to move on

and me not say, "Hey, how are you

and me not say, "Hey, how are you

or how was your day or I think about you,"

and let you know, I won't do that.

[Ranin] But then he said something that triggered me.

He said, "You know, at the end of the day,

I go to my family and you go to nothing."

And I was like, "Wow, that's a slap in the face."

I started to realize

there's things that people say

that they feel they have power over you.

It was the most toxic thing I ever had to deal with.

It was the most toxic thing I ever had to deal with.

It was really unhealthy.

It just brought a lot of pain into my life, you know,

because I always said,

"If I can go back and never meet Carl, I would."

It's not like something that I wanted to happen in my life.

It just happened.

So I'll talk to you soon for sure.

Might knock on your door. You never know.

Bye.