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1
00:02:37,032 --> 00:02:38,116
Got another one.
2
00:02:40,702 --> 00:02:41,995
"Wish you were here."
3
00:02:45,749 --> 00:02:48,251
"Dear Holden, it's been some time
since we've seen each other,"
4
00:02:48,335 --> 00:02:50,500
and while the memory of
your voice has faded,
5
00:02:50,525 --> 00:02:52,530
what we discussed has not.
6
00:02:52,589 --> 00:02:54,257
I've had more insights into my behavior,
7
00:02:54,383 --> 00:02:57,260
which I'd like to share with you
at your earliest convenience.
8
00:02:57,386 --> 00:02:59,221
"Warmest regards, Ed Kemper."
9
00:02:59,304 --> 00:03:00,639
Ed Kemper writes you?
10
00:03:00,764 --> 00:03:02,599
If OPR decides to pay a site visit...
11
00:03:02,682 --> 00:03:05,394
Fuck 'em.
12
00:03:06,895 --> 00:03:09,481
- Bill Tench.
- Bill, Detective Chambers.
13
00:03:09,564 --> 00:03:11,420
Hey, Gordon, how's it going down there?
14
00:03:11,445 --> 00:03:13,008
You're not gonna be happy.
15
00:03:13,402 --> 00:03:14,736
Okay.
16
00:03:14,820 --> 00:03:16,988
I had Devier come in,
suggested a polygraph.
17
00:03:17,072 --> 00:03:19,533
I wanted to see his reaction,
and he agreed to it.
18
00:03:19,616 --> 00:03:21,410
- You polygraphed him?
- That's right.
19
00:03:21,535 --> 00:03:22,661
And he passed.
20
00:03:22,786 --> 00:03:24,413
- Inconclusive.
- Shit.
21
00:03:24,538 --> 00:03:25,997
We don't get that result too often.
22
00:03:26,081 --> 00:03:28,291
Because it only occurs
six percent of the time.
23
00:03:28,417 --> 00:03:30,836
It usually has to do
with how the questions are worded.
24
00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:32,999
- Lab found Lisa's blood on the rock.
- Inconclusive.
25
00:03:33,046 --> 00:03:35,048
Devier, he'd cleaned the car.
26
00:03:35,132 --> 00:03:37,426
- And so, no physical evidence.
- That's right.
27
00:03:37,551 --> 00:03:39,010
Think that's bad, the inconclusive?
28
00:03:39,094 --> 00:03:40,714
Definitely won't put him away with it.
29
00:03:40,739 --> 00:03:42,621
Worst case scenario, he's exonerated.
30
00:03:42,681 --> 00:03:44,224
- Can you hold a moment?
- Sure.
31
00:03:45,434 --> 00:03:47,194
- You get that?
- They've got nothing on him?
32
00:03:47,227 --> 00:03:48,979
He was happy to take the polygraph.
33
00:03:49,062 --> 00:03:51,064
Now he'll be cockier than ever.
34
00:03:52,069 --> 00:03:54,109
- See if he'll talk to us.
- There's no way.
35
00:03:54,110 --> 00:03:55,110
Ask him.
36
00:03:55,111 --> 00:03:57,904
How convinced are we that he's guilty?
What percentage convinced?
37
00:03:57,988 --> 00:03:59,406
- Hundred percent.
- I'm about 70.
38
00:03:59,431 --> 00:04:01,435
It is no accident that
this tree trimmer
39
00:04:01,469 --> 00:04:03,100
was accused of rape in another county.
40
00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:04,327
He'd have to be Mirandized.
41
00:04:04,453 --> 00:04:07,080
It's a death penalty state.
There's nothing in it for him.
42
00:04:07,164 --> 00:04:10,500
He is a narcissist.
Might just do it to prove that he can.
43
00:04:12,544 --> 00:04:15,338
Have Chambers extend an invitation.
44
00:04:19,843 --> 00:04:21,136
- Hey, Gordon?
- Yeah.
45
00:04:21,678 --> 00:04:22,763
Here's an idea.
46
00:04:25,348 --> 00:04:27,017
Can you bring in Devier later?
47
00:04:27,476 --> 00:04:28,810
Sure. Tonight?
48
00:04:28,894 --> 00:04:31,688
6:00, 7:00 p.m.
Casual, a little evening chat.
49
00:04:31,813 --> 00:04:33,893
Assure him he's not under arrest,
but it's important,
50
00:04:33,917 --> 00:04:35,150
the FBI wants to talk to him.
51
00:04:35,567 --> 00:04:37,569
We're doing this after-hours
to be more casual?
52
00:04:37,652 --> 00:04:40,322
Make it seem that way. He'll be
tired, he'll let down his guard.
53
00:04:40,405 --> 00:04:43,575
Then he'll realize we're working
overtime. We mean business.
54
00:04:45,243 --> 00:04:47,871
Once he gets to the station,
let him wait before we talk to him.
55
00:04:47,954 --> 00:04:49,790
- Okay.
- At least an hour.
56
00:04:50,499 --> 00:04:51,779
That's supposed to...
57
00:04:51,862 --> 00:04:53,947
You ever wait for test results
in a doctor's office?
58
00:04:54,031 --> 00:04:56,087
We need to create in him
a visceral memory.
59
00:04:56,171 --> 00:04:58,673
We need to elicit
a physiological response.
60
00:04:58,757 --> 00:05:00,926
- We need a shoe.
- A shoe?
61
00:05:00,927 --> 00:05:01,927
Ah.
62
00:05:01,928 --> 00:05:03,688
Something we used
to crack another sociopath.
63
00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:05,889
We need to find the
equivalent for Devier.
64
00:05:12,062 --> 00:05:15,023
- Show me everything you got on Devier.
- Brass.
65
00:05:18,193 --> 00:05:19,778
- This is it?
- That's it.
66
00:05:19,903 --> 00:05:22,864
Okay, I need a lot more. Several
of these folders, make them thick.
67
00:05:22,948 --> 00:05:25,534
Go to the copier.
Use blank pages if you need to.
68
00:05:25,659 --> 00:05:27,536
I want it to look
like Manhattan Yellow Pages.
69
00:05:28,745 --> 00:05:30,705
- Evidence room?
- This way.
70
00:05:36,169 --> 00:05:38,338
What have we here?
71
00:05:43,426 --> 00:05:47,138
This is great. This is perfect.
Where's her baton? Her twirling baton?
72
00:05:49,224 --> 00:05:51,434
- She didn't have that on her.
- Okay.
73
00:05:54,062 --> 00:05:56,022
Take all of this to the interview room.
74
00:05:56,565 --> 00:05:57,640
Yes, sir.
75
00:05:58,108 --> 00:06:00,151
You have anything
from where the body was found?
76
00:06:00,235 --> 00:06:02,237
Just on that shelf, the one below.
77
00:06:09,828 --> 00:06:10,829
Well, all right.
78
00:06:13,415 --> 00:06:16,334
- Is there a five and dime around here?
- Right off the square.
79
00:06:16,418 --> 00:06:19,462
Get a baton, fine if it's cheap.
Remove the price tag.
80
00:06:19,546 --> 00:06:21,006
- Drag it around in the dirt.
- Okay.
81
00:06:21,089 --> 00:06:22,530
I don't want him to see evidence.
82
00:06:22,555 --> 00:06:24,504
I want him to see a sweet little girl.
83
00:06:24,634 --> 00:06:25,694
Hurry.
84
00:06:30,265 --> 00:06:32,017
Listen, when we get Devier in here,
85
00:06:32,100 --> 00:06:35,145
I'm gonna ask him questions
that may make you uncomfortable.
86
00:06:35,604 --> 00:06:37,810
Acing the polygraph just
lowered his blood pressure,
87
00:06:37,835 --> 00:06:39,298
so sit tight, okay?
88
00:06:40,108 --> 00:06:41,109
Sure.
89
00:06:44,112 --> 00:06:45,822
All this an FBI thing?
90
00:06:46,865 --> 00:06:49,826
It's, uh... his thing.
91
00:06:52,078 --> 00:06:54,623
We have Devier coming across the street.
92
00:07:06,635 --> 00:07:07,694
Devier.
93
00:07:09,262 --> 00:07:10,430
Come right through here.
94
00:07:25,278 --> 00:07:27,656
So I'm going to have you
wait down the hall here.
95
00:07:27,739 --> 00:07:30,158
Wait while the agents come in.
Bring back smokes or anything?
96
00:07:30,241 --> 00:07:32,118
- Yeah, that'd be great.
- All right.
97
00:07:32,744 --> 00:07:35,104
Don't know how much more
information I can provide,
98
00:07:35,128 --> 00:07:36,873
but I'll help any way I can.
99
00:07:36,957 --> 00:07:38,875
They just want to talk to you.
Through here.
100
00:07:53,181 --> 00:07:54,391
He's in there.
101
00:07:55,183 --> 00:07:58,061
Gene, hello.
I'm Special Agent Holden Ford.
102
00:07:58,144 --> 00:07:59,688
- Hi.
- Special Agent Bill Tench.
103
00:07:59,813 --> 00:08:02,107
- Hey.
- Detective Chambers, you guys have met.
104
00:08:02,190 --> 00:08:04,317
Thanks for doing this.
You've been Mirandized, right?
105
00:08:04,734 --> 00:08:06,152
- Again.
- Great.
106
00:08:06,236 --> 00:08:08,154
We're gonna do this
as quickly as possible.
107
00:08:08,697 --> 00:08:10,824
I'm sure you've got
better things to do tonight.
108
00:08:12,784 --> 00:08:15,537
Army life wasn't for me.
I'll admit that.
109
00:08:15,620 --> 00:08:18,855
Too regimented. Couldn't stand them
barking orders at me all the time.
110
00:08:19,938 --> 00:08:22,276
I like things more laid back, you know.
111
00:08:22,335 --> 00:08:25,255
Working outdoors, the fresh air.
112
00:08:25,922 --> 00:08:27,966
John, my boss,
he was great about hiring me,
113
00:08:28,091 --> 00:08:29,509
even with the discharge.
114
00:08:30,051 --> 00:08:31,602
It seemed like a perfect fit.
115
00:08:31,708 --> 00:08:33,704
Out in the weather,
working with my hands.
116
00:08:33,763 --> 00:08:35,181
Military's not for everyone.
117
00:08:35,265 --> 00:08:37,434
You can't know that before you go in.
118
00:08:37,517 --> 00:08:38,560
You went voluntarily?
119
00:08:38,643 --> 00:08:41,354
'Nam was pretty much over,
figured it'd be low-key.
120
00:08:41,438 --> 00:08:43,198
Looks like you've married
and divorced twice.
121
00:08:43,273 --> 00:08:45,734
What can I say?
I'm popular with the ladies.
122
00:08:45,817 --> 00:08:48,111
- Or unpopular.
- Depending on how you look at it.
123
00:08:48,194 --> 00:08:49,612
I made mistakes.
124
00:08:49,696 --> 00:08:51,614
Married my first girl when we were 16.
125
00:08:51,698 --> 00:08:53,408
Just after you dropped
out of high school?
126
00:08:53,491 --> 00:08:55,285
- Yeah.
- Why'd you drop out?
127
00:08:55,744 --> 00:08:56,870
Trouble sitting still.
128
00:08:56,953 --> 00:08:58,872
School made me a little nuts, too.
129
00:08:58,955 --> 00:09:00,874
Wow, so you married your first girl.
130
00:09:01,708 --> 00:09:04,044
- Why'd you split up?
- We were fighting all the time.
131
00:09:04,127 --> 00:09:06,287
- What about your second wife?
- Same story.
132
00:09:06,311 --> 00:09:08,423
But you're living again
with your first ex-wife?
133
00:09:08,506 --> 00:09:11,885
Yeah. I know. I know. It's kind of...
134
00:09:11,968 --> 00:09:13,595
Same story? Still fighting?
135
00:09:13,678 --> 00:09:16,139
- Sometimes.
- But she's not 16 anymore.
136
00:09:16,556 --> 00:09:19,059
Nope. Oh, no.
137
00:09:19,142 --> 00:09:20,977
The bloom of youth has faded.
138
00:09:23,271 --> 00:09:25,356
You all got a lot of information on me.
139
00:09:25,732 --> 00:09:27,317
The FBI is thorough.
140
00:09:28,026 --> 00:09:30,570
Yeah, well, what am I,
some kind of gangster?
141
00:09:31,154 --> 00:09:32,238
Bureaucracy.
142
00:09:34,866 --> 00:09:37,911
Well, listen, I got to mosey
out of here soon, so if we could...
143
00:09:37,994 --> 00:09:39,412
Of course. Of course.
144
00:09:39,996 --> 00:09:41,456
Let's get down to business.
145
00:09:41,539 --> 00:09:43,416
You're really important to us, Gene.
146
00:09:43,500 --> 00:09:45,781
You were on Lisa's street
the week before she disappeared.
147
00:09:45,835 --> 00:09:48,254
You had a bird's-eye view
of the entire place.
148
00:09:48,797 --> 00:09:50,632
Yeah, but I mean, I didn't see nothing.
149
00:09:50,715 --> 00:09:53,343
You know, I was focused on them trees.
You got to be.
150
00:09:53,426 --> 00:09:55,099
Especially when you're working the saw.
151
00:09:55,124 --> 00:09:56,662
Understood, but...
152
00:09:57,472 --> 00:09:59,641
we're kind of grasping at straws here.
153
00:10:00,141 --> 00:10:02,310
You're the closest thing we have
to an eyewitness.
154
00:10:03,812 --> 00:10:07,482
Well, I took your polygraph.
I'm an open book.
155
00:10:07,565 --> 00:10:08,625
Thank you.
156
00:10:10,401 --> 00:10:11,402
So...
157
00:10:12,487 --> 00:10:14,823
you must have seen Lisa
coming and going that week.
158
00:10:14,906 --> 00:10:15,906
Not really.
159
00:10:16,366 --> 00:10:18,284
- Maybe once or twice.
- Well...
160
00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,288
If she wore that outfit,
couldn't have missed her.
161
00:10:23,623 --> 00:10:27,710
Yeah. Oh, yeah, I guess I saw her
in that a couple of times.
162
00:10:27,836 --> 00:10:29,671
Feathered hat, silver baton?
163
00:10:29,754 --> 00:10:31,005
Uh... yeah.
164
00:10:31,089 --> 00:10:33,216
What time she catch the school bus
in the morning?
165
00:10:33,299 --> 00:10:35,844
Well, let's see, I'd
get there about 7:00,
166
00:10:35,927 --> 00:10:38,721
she'd come out maybe half hour later.
167
00:10:38,847 --> 00:10:41,975
And what time did the bus
drop her back off?
168
00:10:42,333 --> 00:10:43,351
Oh, I can't say.
169
00:10:43,434 --> 00:10:47,063
Um, I mean, maybe 3:30, 4:00.
170
00:10:47,147 --> 00:10:49,399
Ever see her talk to anyone
when she got off the bus?
171
00:10:49,482 --> 00:10:50,692
No, sir.
172
00:10:50,775 --> 00:10:53,403
Anyone on her street who looked like
he didn't belong there?
173
00:10:53,820 --> 00:10:56,406
Not that I can recall, but, I mean...
174
00:10:56,865 --> 00:10:59,450
I wasn't even working
the week that she disappeared.
175
00:10:59,534 --> 00:11:00,593
Right.
176
00:11:02,370 --> 00:11:03,955
Oh, hold on, it almost ended.
177
00:11:09,127 --> 00:11:10,879
That's what she had on her that day.
178
00:11:16,175 --> 00:11:17,210
Heartbreaking.
179
00:11:19,053 --> 00:11:21,139
By all accounts, she was a sweet kid.
180
00:11:21,323 --> 00:11:23,407
Yeah, she seemed real friendly.
181
00:11:24,225 --> 00:11:25,301
You noticed that?
182
00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:28,897
You know, just saw her playing in
the yard with her dog, you know.
183
00:11:28,980 --> 00:11:30,857
I mean, I guess you could say she was...
184
00:11:30,940 --> 00:11:32,901
- Precocious?
- Right.
185
00:11:32,984 --> 00:11:34,068
Did you ever talk to her?
186
00:11:34,861 --> 00:11:36,738
- No.
- She ever talk to you?
187
00:11:37,697 --> 00:11:39,824
- Waved a time or two.
- Hmm.
188
00:11:42,911 --> 00:11:46,664
- Was she a cheerleader?
- Majorette.
189
00:11:48,541 --> 00:11:50,585
Those girls on the dance team
are something else.
190
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:53,588
I always had the hots for them.
191
00:11:54,923 --> 00:11:55,998
I mean...
192
00:11:58,635 --> 00:12:01,638
she looks pretty tasty in that outfit,
doesn't she?
193
00:12:04,474 --> 00:12:06,726
- Sure.
- It's very revealing.
194
00:12:07,727 --> 00:12:08,937
Yeah, I guess.
195
00:12:10,605 --> 00:12:11,664
Come on.
196
00:12:12,357 --> 00:12:13,608
You guys don't think so?
197
00:12:15,652 --> 00:12:17,362
I mean...
198
00:12:17,445 --> 00:12:19,065
Definitely looks older than 12.
199
00:12:19,090 --> 00:12:20,514
See, that's what I thought.
200
00:12:20,573 --> 00:12:23,409
Okay. Thank you. So it's not just me?
201
00:12:23,493 --> 00:12:26,162
Well, these girls these days,
they're developing so early.
202
00:12:26,245 --> 00:12:27,280
Sure are.
203
00:12:28,706 --> 00:12:30,708
Of course, Lisa was in junior high.
204
00:12:31,167 --> 00:12:33,211
Whoever picked her up
might not have known that.
205
00:12:35,838 --> 00:12:38,174
I mean, I'm sitting here
wracking my brain,
206
00:12:38,257 --> 00:12:40,301
trying to remember if
I saw someone, but...
207
00:12:40,385 --> 00:12:42,145
We believe he thought she was older.
208
00:12:42,220 --> 00:12:43,900
She was friendly,
probably came up to him.
209
00:12:43,924 --> 00:12:46,349
He thought if they got together,
it'd be consensual.
210
00:12:46,557 --> 00:12:50,186
Well, 14 is the age of consent.
211
00:12:50,728 --> 00:12:51,729
Is that right?
212
00:12:52,647 --> 00:12:53,723
Yeah.
213
00:12:54,190 --> 00:12:55,191
Wow.
214
00:12:57,735 --> 00:13:00,905
I guess Georgia's kind of
forward-thinking in that respect.
215
00:13:01,656 --> 00:13:04,117
I mean, by the time
a woman has hair on her pussy,
216
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,744
you'd think she'd be able to decide
who gets a piece of it.
217
00:13:08,871 --> 00:13:12,083
I mean, yeah, man. I never thought
about it like that before,
218
00:13:12,166 --> 00:13:13,646
- but, yeah.
- But it's true.
219
00:13:13,710 --> 00:13:16,070
- Could make a case.
- Some women shave down there.
220
00:13:16,094 --> 00:13:17,422
- You ever see that?
- No.
221
00:13:17,505 --> 00:13:19,966
They look so young.
222
00:13:21,551 --> 00:13:23,761
- Have you seen it?
- No, but heard tell.
223
00:13:23,845 --> 00:13:26,597
- I tried to get my girlfriend to do it.
- You think she would?
224
00:13:26,681 --> 00:13:30,435
- She's considering.
- What did you even say to her?
225
00:13:30,518 --> 00:13:32,086
I told her, "Honey, this turns me on."
226
00:13:32,113 --> 00:13:33,892
Just direct like that?
227
00:13:34,012 --> 00:13:36,059
Yeah, I don't know
if she's gonna do it.
228
00:13:36,149 --> 00:13:39,694
Women have their own minds these days,
but it sure would be hot,
229
00:13:40,611 --> 00:13:41,612
don't you think?
230
00:13:43,031 --> 00:13:44,032
Sure.
231
00:13:44,115 --> 00:13:46,784
You got to make it with that young pussy
before it turns into Mom.
232
00:13:51,914 --> 00:13:53,291
She's chatting him up,
233
00:13:53,416 --> 00:13:55,816
maybe he's thinking she looks
old enough to wear this outfit,
234
00:13:55,877 --> 00:13:57,258
twirl a baton, march in the band,
235
00:13:57,283 --> 00:13:59,233
probably got some hair on
her, but not too much.
236
00:13:59,839 --> 00:14:00,840
Let's take a break.
237
00:14:01,424 --> 00:14:03,217
- You need a break, Gene?
- Um...
238
00:14:04,635 --> 00:14:07,305
- No, I'm okay.
- Well, I need a break.
239
00:14:08,931 --> 00:14:11,351
I am gravely concerned
with this line of questioning.
240
00:14:11,434 --> 00:14:13,061
I told you, you need to relax.
241
00:14:13,186 --> 00:14:15,897
If it came out in court we suggested
the girl flirted with him...
242
00:14:15,980 --> 00:14:17,940
- How would it come out?
- He turned off the tape.
243
00:14:18,024 --> 00:14:19,067
Yeah, I saw that.
244
00:14:19,609 --> 00:14:21,235
I don't know about that, either.
245
00:14:21,944 --> 00:14:23,321
You agree with this?
246
00:14:23,446 --> 00:14:25,448
In theory. Not so much in practice.
247
00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,369
I will take full responsibility
for what happens in there.
248
00:14:37,710 --> 00:14:39,962
Most people
would call it a cherry picker,
249
00:14:40,088 --> 00:14:43,299
but the industry term would be
a boom lift or a boom truck.
250
00:14:43,383 --> 00:14:45,116
What's the highest you've been?
251
00:14:45,189 --> 00:14:46,868
Well... 50 feet.
252
00:14:46,928 --> 00:14:48,679
- In a tree?
- That's right.
253
00:14:48,763 --> 00:14:51,849
- But you're in a harness, right?
- Well, of course, at that height.
254
00:14:51,933 --> 00:14:56,062
But sometimes you got to get out
to get them faraway limbs.
255
00:14:56,145 --> 00:14:58,856
- Don't look down, huh?
- No, that don't bother me no more.
256
00:14:58,940 --> 00:15:01,067
You saw Lisa waving to you
a couple of times.
257
00:15:01,150 --> 00:15:03,069
Must not have been too
far up to see that.
258
00:15:03,152 --> 00:15:04,529
No, I'm not too sure.
259
00:15:04,612 --> 00:15:06,572
- She ever talk to you?
- No.
260
00:15:07,573 --> 00:15:08,866
But I already told you that.
261
00:15:09,450 --> 00:15:11,494
Hmm. Okay.
262
00:15:11,577 --> 00:15:13,329
Why?
263
00:15:13,871 --> 00:15:16,207
We have one person,
said she saw the two of you talking.
264
00:15:16,707 --> 00:15:18,987
Well, I thought I was
your star witness.
265
00:15:19,060 --> 00:15:21,020
Only one watching the street.
266
00:15:21,045 --> 00:15:22,922
Listen, you're a good-looking guy.
267
00:15:23,005 --> 00:15:25,466
Did she just come up to you,
being friendly?
268
00:15:25,550 --> 00:15:28,678
She sees you up there every day,
sweating away in the hot sun.
269
00:15:28,761 --> 00:15:30,763
Could she have maybe offered you a soda?
270
00:15:33,975 --> 00:15:36,352
She could've come up and talked to me.
271
00:15:37,019 --> 00:15:38,020
Can you remember?
272
00:15:39,689 --> 00:15:41,816
- I guess.
- It's coming back to you.
273
00:15:41,899 --> 00:15:44,569
Just that... she could've talked to me.
274
00:15:44,652 --> 00:15:45,653
What did she say?
275
00:15:46,404 --> 00:15:47,905
- I don't know.
- You don't?
276
00:15:48,906 --> 00:15:50,908
- No.
- No idea at all?
277
00:15:50,992 --> 00:15:52,118
You weren't listening?
278
00:15:54,162 --> 00:15:55,621
I can't recall.
279
00:15:55,705 --> 00:15:57,957
She ask you about your work,
your day, where you live?
280
00:15:59,167 --> 00:16:00,501
Something like that.
281
00:16:00,585 --> 00:16:01,669
Small talk.
282
00:16:02,295 --> 00:16:03,354
Sure.
283
00:16:03,838 --> 00:16:05,965
I bet she thought
you were a handsome cuss.
284
00:16:07,175 --> 00:16:08,301
I don't know.
285
00:16:08,384 --> 00:16:09,760
You think she was pretty?
286
00:16:12,847 --> 00:16:15,266
We've already established
she looked at least 14.
287
00:16:19,645 --> 00:16:22,064
- I guess I thought so.
- You thought what?
288
00:16:22,148 --> 00:16:24,400
- That she was cute.
- She was precocious, too.
289
00:16:24,984 --> 00:16:26,903
Didn't mind that you were older.
290
00:16:27,653 --> 00:16:29,197
She probably kind of liked it.
291
00:16:30,156 --> 00:16:32,727
Yeah. I kind of thought she was into me.
292
00:16:32,752 --> 00:16:35,118
When your job ended and you
weren't on that street anymore,
293
00:16:35,143 --> 00:16:36,362
you still think about her?
294
00:16:36,388 --> 00:16:37,388
No.
295
00:16:37,413 --> 00:16:38,669
You ever go back by the house,
296
00:16:38,693 --> 00:16:40,487
see if she wanted to talk some more?
297
00:16:41,083 --> 00:16:42,960
I mean, she started things, right?
298
00:16:43,044 --> 00:16:44,045
Kind of.
299
00:16:47,757 --> 00:16:49,342
What about this jacket?
300
00:16:52,970 --> 00:16:54,347
You ever see her wear this?
301
00:16:57,225 --> 00:16:58,601
Here, take a closer look.
302
00:17:08,903 --> 00:17:11,489
When you picked her up from the bus,
was she wearing this jacket?
303
00:17:14,408 --> 00:17:16,244
There was a lot of blood
at the crime scene.
304
00:17:16,327 --> 00:17:19,497
We haven't revealed too many details,
but Lisa's skull was crushed.
305
00:17:19,622 --> 00:17:21,249
That blood goes everywhere.
306
00:17:22,041 --> 00:17:24,216
In crimes involving blunt force trauma,
307
00:17:24,241 --> 00:17:25,944
it's almost impossible for the attacker
308
00:17:26,045 --> 00:17:28,422
to avoid getting his victim's blood
on him.
309
00:17:28,506 --> 00:17:30,716
The scalp has thousands of capillaries.
310
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:33,135
Blood sprays everywhere,
like a fine mist.
311
00:17:33,219 --> 00:17:35,388
It gets in your hair, up your nose.
312
00:17:35,805 --> 00:17:37,932
I'd be amazed
if you didn't get any on you.
313
00:17:38,015 --> 00:17:40,175
- He's washed.
- What's under your fingernails?
314
00:17:40,199 --> 00:17:42,603
- It's just dirt, Bill.
- We should take a sample.
315
00:17:42,687 --> 00:17:44,855
- He scrubbed his nails by now.
- Is it in your ears?
316
00:17:44,939 --> 00:17:47,358
I bet. When was the last time
you cleaned your ears?
317
00:17:47,441 --> 00:17:49,921
- You want to take a sample?
- Can we do that?
318
00:17:49,945 --> 00:17:51,530
Yeah. I can arrange that.
319
00:17:57,702 --> 00:17:58,953
You've gone quiet.
320
00:17:59,412 --> 00:18:01,247
When we accuse somebody of murder,
321
00:18:01,330 --> 00:18:03,082
if they haven't done it,
they won't shut up.
322
00:18:03,165 --> 00:18:04,325
They protest their innocence.
323
00:18:04,451 --> 00:18:07,120
Oh, God, yeah. "How dare you?
Fuck you. I know my rights."
324
00:18:07,203 --> 00:18:09,964
A guilty guy will clam up,
start listening intently,
325
00:18:10,089 --> 00:18:11,169
which is what you're doing.
326
00:18:11,215 --> 00:18:13,759
If a guilty guy yells
to make you think he's innocent,
327
00:18:13,843 --> 00:18:16,554
- you can always tell the difference.
- Sure can.
328
00:18:17,513 --> 00:18:19,515
Why do you keep looking at that rock?
329
00:18:19,599 --> 00:18:22,018
An innocent man would have
to guess its significance.
330
00:18:22,768 --> 00:18:25,229
It's what was used to kill Lisa,
wasn't it?
331
00:18:25,313 --> 00:18:26,772
When things got out of hand.
332
00:18:27,982 --> 00:18:29,692
You didn't mean to, right?
333
00:18:29,775 --> 00:18:31,748
She came up to you,
she seemed friendly,
334
00:18:31,828 --> 00:18:33,535
and then everything went sideways.
335
00:18:33,946 --> 00:18:37,283
The question for us isn't "Did you
do it?" We know that you did it.
336
00:18:37,366 --> 00:18:38,868
The question for us is...
337
00:18:39,535 --> 00:18:40,594
"Why?"
338
00:18:41,537 --> 00:18:44,790
We think we know why, and we understand.
339
00:18:47,001 --> 00:18:49,003
All you have to do is tell us
if we're right.
340
00:19:03,476 --> 00:19:05,519
- Can you teach this stuff?
- We should.
341
00:19:05,603 --> 00:19:08,773
Bill, why are not we teaching profiling
at the Academy?
342
00:19:08,856 --> 00:19:11,776
Because we're still figuring it out.
343
00:19:11,859 --> 00:19:13,861
- You like this bourbon?
- Yeah.
344
00:19:13,944 --> 00:19:15,029
Two more.
345
00:19:15,154 --> 00:19:17,823
Now, what I can't get over is the rock.
346
00:19:17,907 --> 00:19:20,576
He could not control his reaction.
347
00:19:20,660 --> 00:19:22,578
- Everybody has a rock.
- What?
348
00:19:22,703 --> 00:19:24,497
Something that makes them sweat.
349
00:19:24,580 --> 00:19:27,500
Like, for example,
my senior year of college.
350
00:19:27,583 --> 00:19:28,764
I came home for Christmas,
351
00:19:28,789 --> 00:19:30,527
and I'm sitting at the kitchen
table with my dad,
352
00:19:30,586 --> 00:19:33,005
and my mom brings over some eggnog.
353
00:19:34,256 --> 00:19:36,592
And she hands me a glass and she says,
354
00:19:36,717 --> 00:19:40,388
"Holden, have you had sexual relations
with a woman?"
355
00:19:40,471 --> 00:19:41,471
- Jesus, no.
- Yeah.
356
00:19:41,472 --> 00:19:45,059
And I say, "Uh, yeah, Mom, I have."
357
00:19:45,142 --> 00:19:46,852
And she says, "What's her name?"
358
00:19:46,936 --> 00:19:50,272
And I say, "Well, actually, Mom,
there's been a few."
359
00:19:50,773 --> 00:19:52,525
Bottoms up.
360
00:19:52,608 --> 00:19:53,609
And then...
361
00:19:55,528 --> 00:19:58,406
Oh! And then she says, "Holden..."
362
00:20:00,032 --> 00:20:01,951
"who's going to have you
as a husband now?"
363
00:20:02,034 --> 00:20:03,411
I'm telling you,
364
00:20:03,494 --> 00:20:05,079
if she asked me that again today,
365
00:20:05,162 --> 00:20:07,748
the exact same thing would happen.
I would completely fall apart.
366
00:20:07,832 --> 00:20:09,208
She's your rock.
367
00:20:09,875 --> 00:20:10,960
Let's be clear.
368
00:20:11,419 --> 00:20:14,046
All he did was put the killer's
murder weapon in front of him.
369
00:20:14,130 --> 00:20:15,189
Bill, come on.
370
00:20:15,214 --> 00:20:19,051
We posited
that the killer might feel guilty.
371
00:20:19,135 --> 00:20:20,553
And then, I just...
372
00:20:21,679 --> 00:20:25,099
created a situation where the guilt
completely overwhelmed him.
373
00:20:25,224 --> 00:20:26,392
It wasn't guilt.
374
00:20:26,475 --> 00:20:30,104
It was the pucker of "Oh, shit,
I'm going to the electric chair."
375
00:20:30,187 --> 00:20:32,773
How'd you come up with this stuff?
376
00:20:33,899 --> 00:20:37,695
By interviewing Richard Speck,
and Jerry Brudos, and Ed Kemper.
377
00:20:39,196 --> 00:20:41,240
- You talked to them firsthand?
- Uh-huh.
378
00:20:41,323 --> 00:20:43,451
And we've got Manson and Berkowitz
on the wish list.
379
00:20:43,455 --> 00:20:44,475
No shit.
380
00:20:44,493 --> 00:20:46,454
- Unbelievable.
- What are they like?
381
00:20:46,579 --> 00:20:50,458
Well, I don't think I'm speaking
out of turn here when I say...
382
00:20:50,583 --> 00:20:54,086
they are fucked up.
383
00:20:54,170 --> 00:20:56,213
Amen.
384
00:20:59,341 --> 00:21:00,593
So what did you say to him?
385
00:21:00,676 --> 00:21:02,887
I got him talking about
how hot young girls are,
386
00:21:02,970 --> 00:21:04,472
how they look older than their age.
387
00:21:04,555 --> 00:21:06,348
- Ugh.
- But it was the net effect.
388
00:21:06,432 --> 00:21:08,642
I laid out everything she had on her,
389
00:21:08,726 --> 00:21:12,146
a portrait of the last day
in the life of a 12-year-old girl.
390
00:21:12,229 --> 00:21:14,565
So you staged it. Like a director.
391
00:21:15,149 --> 00:21:16,150
I guess.
392
00:21:16,233 --> 00:21:18,611
Only he didn't know
he was playing a role in your drama.
393
00:21:18,694 --> 00:21:20,696
That is what made it a nail-biter.
394
00:21:20,821 --> 00:21:23,199
No one could have scripted
the reveal of the rock.
395
00:21:23,282 --> 00:21:25,618
He completely freaked.
396
00:21:26,577 --> 00:21:28,454
You could suddenly smell BO in the room.
397
00:21:28,537 --> 00:21:30,289
- Pavlovian.
- Guilt.
398
00:21:31,165 --> 00:21:34,168
But you were convinced he was guilty
before you went in.
399
00:21:34,835 --> 00:21:36,378
Well, it was pretty obvious.
400
00:21:36,504 --> 00:21:38,964
Yes, but presupposed.
401
00:21:40,174 --> 00:21:41,926
Correctly presupposed.
402
00:21:42,009 --> 00:21:45,638
Is it a fair experiment if you're
working backward from a conclusion?
403
00:21:45,721 --> 00:21:47,306
If your theory is proven right.
404
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,185
Holden, you drove him
to an emotional response.
405
00:21:51,310 --> 00:21:53,729
I helped put a child
murderer behind bars.
406
00:21:53,854 --> 00:21:55,064
Like Perry Mason?
407
00:21:55,856 --> 00:21:58,984
- That's right.
- Only Perry Mason never got off on it.
408
00:22:00,194 --> 00:22:02,363
- Please stop analyzing me.
- I'm not analyzing you.
409
00:22:02,446 --> 00:22:04,281
You run this commentary
on everything I do.
410
00:22:04,365 --> 00:22:07,076
I was talking about your work.
That's how we communicate, right?
411
00:22:07,159 --> 00:22:09,495
You talk about your job,
I give my opinion.
412
00:22:09,578 --> 00:22:11,372
Maybe I don't always want your opinion.
413
00:22:11,397 --> 00:22:12,831
When I'm not in agreement with you.
414
00:22:12,856 --> 00:22:14,641
Could you just be my girlfriend?
415
00:22:14,708 --> 00:22:15,876
Could you just listen?
416
00:22:17,545 --> 00:22:19,505
You mean shut up and adore you?
417
00:22:19,588 --> 00:22:22,174
Well, you could try it. Once.
418
00:22:51,787 --> 00:22:53,998
Making furniture from human remains
419
00:22:54,081 --> 00:22:55,708
qualifies as organized.
420
00:22:56,417 --> 00:22:57,459
We're famous.
421
00:22:57,918 --> 00:23:00,504
This is apparently the talk
of the Atlanta office.
422
00:23:03,007 --> 00:23:04,927
"Darrell Gene Devier
cracks under the questioning
423
00:23:05,009 --> 00:23:06,468
of a new type of FBI agent."
424
00:23:06,552 --> 00:23:09,179
- Is that supposed to be us?
- Who the fuck do you think?
425
00:23:10,014 --> 00:23:11,056
Who's named?
426
00:23:11,515 --> 00:23:13,100
Read the part about, uh...
427
00:23:13,934 --> 00:23:17,896
"Behavioral Science's bright-eyed boy
who's friends with Ed Kemper."
428
00:23:17,980 --> 00:23:19,189
Who talked to a reporter?
429
00:23:19,273 --> 00:23:21,483
Probably
your baby-faced drinking buddy.
430
00:23:21,984 --> 00:23:24,486
That was in confidence
to a member of law enforcement.
431
00:23:24,612 --> 00:23:26,572
- While you were drunk.
- Celebrating.
432
00:23:27,406 --> 00:23:29,074
"Using evidence from the crime scene,
433
00:23:29,158 --> 00:23:32,036
he managed to break through
Devier's psychological barriers"?
434
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:33,579
This reads a lot like coercion.
435
00:23:33,662 --> 00:23:35,581
Worse, it sounds like horseshit.
436
00:23:36,123 --> 00:23:37,750
Devier was in that interrogation room
437
00:23:37,833 --> 00:23:40,419
because trees were trimmed
on the victim's street.
438
00:23:41,045 --> 00:23:42,368
Good old-fashioned detective work.
439
00:23:42,393 --> 00:23:43,925
That got him in the room.
440
00:23:43,949 --> 00:23:45,466
We got him to confess.
441
00:23:45,549 --> 00:23:49,178
- You cannot be proud of this.
- There's nothing egregious here.
442
00:23:50,012 --> 00:23:51,492
- Exposure could be good.
- No.
443
00:23:51,555 --> 00:23:54,391
Can we all agree we are not ready
for Good Morning America?
444
00:23:54,475 --> 00:23:55,851
I did not give an interview.
445
00:23:55,934 --> 00:23:57,853
Even if we were accurately represented,
446
00:23:57,936 --> 00:24:00,773
people should not be reading about us
over breakfast.
447
00:24:00,856 --> 00:24:02,024
Why not?
448
00:24:02,107 --> 00:24:03,525
Just because.
449
00:24:04,151 --> 00:24:05,169
Bill...
450
00:24:08,405 --> 00:24:10,524
is it possible that you're upset
451
00:24:10,685 --> 00:24:13,075
because the article
doesn't mention you?
452
00:24:22,670 --> 00:24:27,007
Hi, Susan. It's Dr. Wendy Carr.
I need to book a flight tomorrow.
453
00:24:27,091 --> 00:24:29,635
I don't know what to do
short of putting a muzzle on him.
454
00:24:29,718 --> 00:24:31,136
Please don't go back to Boston.
455
00:24:31,220 --> 00:24:33,097
Atlanta. Out of Dulles.
456
00:24:33,681 --> 00:24:36,475
- The same day if possible.
- Why are you going to Atlanta?
457
00:24:36,558 --> 00:24:38,678
- I'm gonna talk to the Floyd County DA.
- About what?
458
00:24:38,702 --> 00:24:41,355
It's in the article,
they're prosecuting a capital case.
459
00:24:41,444 --> 00:24:42,539
So?
460
00:24:42,564 --> 00:24:44,555
So we can't be seen
to be party to that.
461
00:24:44,608 --> 00:24:47,236
I'm sorry. Yes, I am.
Can you give me that number again?
462
00:24:47,319 --> 00:24:49,363
What? That's none of our concern.
463
00:24:49,446 --> 00:24:50,656
It's mine.
464
00:24:50,739 --> 00:24:53,242
- He slaughtered a 12-year-old girl.
- I know what he did.
465
00:24:53,325 --> 00:24:55,828
Oh, uh, window or aisle, both are fine.
466
00:24:55,911 --> 00:24:59,039
- Georgia's a death penalty state.
- I think I might need a car, too.
467
00:24:59,123 --> 00:25:00,749
What are you going to say to them?
468
00:25:01,250 --> 00:25:04,211
We're four interviews in.
No one is gonna talk to us
469
00:25:04,294 --> 00:25:06,256
if they think we're sending people
to the electric chair.
470
00:25:06,316 --> 00:25:08,203
No one in law enforcement
will talk to us
471
00:25:08,228 --> 00:25:09,400
if they think we're squeamish
472
00:25:09,454 --> 00:25:11,218
about executing rapists and murderers.
473
00:25:11,301 --> 00:25:14,179
Oh, that sounds lovely.
A convertible or a T-top.
474
00:25:14,263 --> 00:25:15,973
You cannot go representing the FBI.
475
00:25:16,056 --> 00:25:17,599
I don't intend to.
476
00:25:17,683 --> 00:25:19,687
They won't understand
how you're connected to this case.
477
00:25:19,712 --> 00:25:22,087
If you don't see how this
situation compromises us,
478
00:25:22,112 --> 00:25:23,851
Then I really don't know
what to say to you.
479
00:25:23,897 --> 00:25:26,734
I'm sorry. I'm... I'm so distracted.
480
00:25:26,859 --> 00:25:29,069
Can you give me that number
one more time?
481
00:25:29,153 --> 00:25:30,170
Go with her.
482
00:25:30,696 --> 00:25:31,947
You got us into this.
483
00:25:33,741 --> 00:25:35,409
Shut the door.
484
00:25:37,327 --> 00:25:38,746
I got it this time. Thank you.
485
00:25:53,427 --> 00:25:56,555
Follow my lead.
I'm used to talking to law enforcement.
486
00:25:59,975 --> 00:26:01,514
District Attorney Mayweather,
487
00:26:01,615 --> 00:26:03,336
thank you for meeting with
us on such short notice.
488
00:26:03,415 --> 00:26:04,722
Oh, Esther, please.
489
00:26:04,747 --> 00:26:08,031
I am delighted to meet the man
who delivered me Gene Devier.
490
00:26:08,901 --> 00:26:09,943
My pleasure.
491
00:26:10,444 --> 00:26:12,446
Professor Carr's a consultant at the FBI
492
00:26:12,529 --> 00:26:14,740
and she has been instrumental
in developing a program...
493
00:26:14,823 --> 00:26:17,659
I'm sorry. I have as long as it takes
to finish this sandwich.
494
00:26:17,749 --> 00:26:20,609
We have been interviewing
extremely violent offenders.
495
00:26:20,634 --> 00:26:22,194
The worst of the worst.
496
00:26:22,247 --> 00:26:24,666
This involves establishing
an element of trust
497
00:26:24,750 --> 00:26:26,960
so that they offer information
to us voluntarily.
498
00:26:27,461 --> 00:26:31,006
We try to be objective because
what they have to say is valuable.
499
00:26:31,471 --> 00:26:32,835
But if they see that our techniques
500
00:26:32,860 --> 00:26:34,535
are being used to
eradicate them, then...
501
00:26:34,593 --> 00:26:37,346
Now how would your techniques
be used for that?
502
00:26:37,881 --> 00:26:40,154
Agent Ford assembled a
psychological sketch
503
00:26:40,179 --> 00:26:42,159
of Mr. Devier, based on research,
504
00:26:42,226 --> 00:26:44,478
which was used to secure a confession.
505
00:26:44,603 --> 00:26:47,272
So if he's convicted
and executed, then...
506
00:26:47,356 --> 00:26:50,067
Honey, we don't kill criminals.
507
00:26:50,692 --> 00:26:52,444
They kill themselves.
508
00:26:52,620 --> 00:26:53,695
What does that mean?
509
00:26:53,779 --> 00:26:56,657
It's their behavior
that puts them in that chair.
510
00:26:56,740 --> 00:26:57,779
Actually, I think it's...
511
00:26:57,783 --> 00:27:01,119
When I talk to a jury,
I always ask, "Do you watch TV?"
512
00:27:01,203 --> 00:27:02,371
Most of them do.
513
00:27:02,454 --> 00:27:04,623
I say, "Who watches the cop shows?"
514
00:27:05,457 --> 00:27:08,418
Right there you know whether
you've got a smart jury or a stupid one.
515
00:27:08,502 --> 00:27:10,295
So I say, "Forget TV",
516
00:27:10,379 --> 00:27:13,090
'cause it'll never show you
the experience of the victim."
517
00:27:13,173 --> 00:27:14,716
- No.
- "You will never hear the cries
518
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,928
of a woman being raped
on The Rockford Files.
519
00:27:18,470 --> 00:27:20,378
You won't smell burning flesh
520
00:27:20,403 --> 00:27:22,999
from the cigarettes
being put to her body
521
00:27:23,024 --> 00:27:24,153
"on Hawaii Five-O."
522
00:27:24,178 --> 00:27:26,557
I'm not arguing prosecution strategies.
523
00:27:26,645 --> 00:27:28,981
- I'm simply...
- And I'm not done talking.
524
00:27:29,940 --> 00:27:33,527
My point is that when you go
from an abstract idea of murder
525
00:27:33,610 --> 00:27:35,445
to the visceral reality,
526
00:27:35,529 --> 00:27:37,489
you can no longer be objective.
527
00:27:37,948 --> 00:27:40,909
Only when you feel the pain
of those victims and their loved ones
528
00:27:40,993 --> 00:27:44,413
can you know the magnitude
of the choice that killer made.
529
00:27:44,529 --> 00:27:46,829
And it's that choice
that seals his fate.
530
00:27:46,949 --> 00:27:48,441
There's no reason to kill people
531
00:27:48,500 --> 00:27:50,752
when we have the wherewithal
to lock them up.
532
00:27:50,836 --> 00:27:53,839
These people spend the rest of their
lives in horrendous conditions,
533
00:27:53,922 --> 00:27:56,442
which likely reflect the environments
in which they were raised.
534
00:27:56,508 --> 00:27:57,794
Maybe... I'm sorry.
535
00:27:57,974 --> 00:28:00,119
But maybe instead of debating
the pros and cons of...
536
00:28:00,178 --> 00:28:02,639
Yes, cut to the point.
537
00:28:03,098 --> 00:28:06,018
Are you actually asking me
to shoot lower than capital punishment
538
00:28:06,101 --> 00:28:08,645
so it won't reflect poorly on the FBI?
539
00:28:09,771 --> 00:28:13,692
Not the FBI,
our work in Behavioral Science.
540
00:28:14,526 --> 00:28:16,153
If it's compromised,
541
00:28:16,236 --> 00:28:18,780
I'm afraid we won't be able to achieve
our ultimate goal,
542
00:28:18,864 --> 00:28:23,118
which is to hopefully prevent
this type of crime from being committed.
543
00:28:24,703 --> 00:28:29,625
I am asking you to consider
life without the possibility of parole.
544
00:28:35,297 --> 00:28:36,924
I'm an elected official.
545
00:28:37,466 --> 00:28:40,302
Here in Georgia,
death is the will of the people.
546
00:28:40,385 --> 00:28:42,596
And if you don't want
to be involved publicly,
547
00:28:42,679 --> 00:28:45,265
then maybe you should keep yourselves
out of the news.
548
00:29:08,372 --> 00:29:09,456
What did you expect?
549
00:29:09,539 --> 00:29:10,874
A reasonable conversation.
550
00:29:11,875 --> 00:29:14,962
I don't know what I expected. I...
551
00:29:16,630 --> 00:29:18,840
I've spent months of my life and...
552
00:29:20,801 --> 00:29:22,678
I had hoped that we could
complete our research
553
00:29:22,761 --> 00:29:24,367
before seeing it used to this end.
554
00:29:24,394 --> 00:29:25,788
What difference would that make?
555
00:29:25,847 --> 00:29:28,183
I wouldn't have to be in meetings
like the one we had.
556
00:29:28,267 --> 00:29:29,935
So you could walk away clean?
557
00:29:30,018 --> 00:29:32,604
Come on, Wendy. You're
smarter than that.
558
00:29:33,855 --> 00:29:35,065
Evidently not.
559
00:29:37,651 --> 00:29:40,862
There's no way around the death penalty
in death penalty states.
560
00:29:41,446 --> 00:29:43,865
Which doesn't mean
what we're doing is wrong.
561
00:30:07,014 --> 00:30:08,890
- Hi.
- Hi.
562
00:30:10,475 --> 00:30:11,685
It's so nice out.
563
00:30:13,186 --> 00:30:14,187
How was your trip?
564
00:30:14,271 --> 00:30:16,356
Hot. Sticky. Miserable.
565
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:17,474
Georgia.
566
00:30:18,650 --> 00:30:20,569
- Have you eaten?
- No.
567
00:30:20,652 --> 00:30:22,446
Great. You want to get something?
568
00:30:24,614 --> 00:30:26,199
It's getting late, we should get going.
569
00:30:26,283 --> 00:30:27,868
No, I don't think so.
570
00:30:29,119 --> 00:30:30,137
Okay.
571
00:30:36,418 --> 00:30:37,436
Are you still mad?
572
00:30:38,712 --> 00:30:39,729
Are you...
573
00:30:40,505 --> 00:30:41,715
What exactly are you?
574
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,550
Must I be something?
575
00:30:49,431 --> 00:30:52,059
These past couple days,
I keep thinking about when we met.
576
00:30:54,811 --> 00:30:56,063
You were so sweet.
577
00:30:56,146 --> 00:30:57,272
And curious.
578
00:30:57,397 --> 00:30:58,523
I'm still...
579
00:30:59,274 --> 00:31:00,292
curious.
580
00:31:00,942 --> 00:31:02,002
No.
581
00:31:02,903 --> 00:31:04,071
You're different.
582
00:31:04,154 --> 00:31:07,491
I am the exact same person
that you reeled in with that jumpsuit.
583
00:31:07,574 --> 00:31:08,867
I don't think that's true.
584
00:31:09,743 --> 00:31:11,328
But I'm not the same either.
585
00:31:12,079 --> 00:31:13,413
Where you going with this?
586
00:31:13,955 --> 00:31:15,916
Just... thinking, talking.
587
00:31:15,999 --> 00:31:17,501
Thinking about...?
588
00:31:19,336 --> 00:31:21,171
- I don't know.
- You don't know?
589
00:31:21,630 --> 00:31:22,672
I don't know.
590
00:31:22,756 --> 00:31:24,758
Jesus, Debbie. Come on.
591
00:31:24,883 --> 00:31:26,635
You're so good at reading people...
592
00:31:27,803 --> 00:31:28,820
you tell me.
593
00:31:33,767 --> 00:31:34,768
Okay.
594
00:31:35,644 --> 00:31:36,770
Well...
595
00:31:37,854 --> 00:31:40,107
when I first got here,
you didn't get up to greet me.
596
00:31:40,524 --> 00:31:43,860
And you didn't invite me inside,
but you won't come to dinner with me.
597
00:31:44,486 --> 00:31:46,238
You've been sitting
with your arms crossed,
598
00:31:46,321 --> 00:31:48,949
which I know, from you, is a bad sign.
599
00:31:50,075 --> 00:31:52,911
You've been in a shitty mood
the last ten times we've been together,
600
00:31:52,994 --> 00:31:54,830
and you're always starting arguments,
601
00:31:54,913 --> 00:31:57,999
and you've been assessing me
in a very negative light.
602
00:31:58,083 --> 00:32:00,502
And in spite of your recent confusion
about your degree,
603
00:32:00,585 --> 00:32:02,337
you stay up late every night
doing homework,
604
00:32:02,462 --> 00:32:04,089
leaving me to go to bed alone.
605
00:32:06,633 --> 00:32:08,760
When I got here,
you offered a sip of your wine,
606
00:32:08,844 --> 00:32:10,470
which could be construed as welcoming,
607
00:32:10,554 --> 00:32:12,714
but even though you knew
I was coming from the airport,
608
00:32:12,738 --> 00:32:14,157
you didn't bring an extra glass,
609
00:32:14,808 --> 00:32:16,351
and half the bottle is gone.
610
00:32:16,810 --> 00:32:21,731
Which means you're trying to take
the edge off so that you can...
611
00:32:25,152 --> 00:32:26,278
break up with me?
612
00:32:32,367 --> 00:32:33,785
Is that what I'm doing?
613
00:32:36,621 --> 00:32:39,249
Let's not drag this out.
I'll pick up my stuff next week.
614
00:32:40,417 --> 00:32:43,253
I'll let you know when,
in case you don't want to be here.
615
00:33:33,178 --> 00:33:34,179
Yes, ma'am.
616
00:33:34,554 --> 00:33:36,640
No, we're trying. It's slow.
617
00:33:36,723 --> 00:33:38,183
- Yes, indeed.
- You take this?
618
00:33:56,076 --> 00:33:58,636
California Medical Facility,
Vacaville. How may I help you?
619
00:33:58,660 --> 00:34:02,791
I got a message to call a Dr... Bruxton.
620
00:34:02,874 --> 00:34:05,377
- One moment, please.
- Did you see who put this here?
621
00:34:06,002 --> 00:34:07,462
I just got in myself.
622
00:34:08,055 --> 00:34:09,130
ICU.
623
00:34:09,214 --> 00:34:12,926
Hello, I'm trying to reach a Dr.
Bruxton.
624
00:34:13,051 --> 00:34:15,470
I believe Dr. Bruxton is in surgery.
625
00:34:15,554 --> 00:34:19,266
Well... I have a message
to return his...
626
00:34:19,391 --> 00:34:20,392
One moment.
627
00:34:29,943 --> 00:34:31,945
Dr. Bruxton isn't available right now.
628
00:34:32,070 --> 00:34:34,531
I'm with the FBI, my
name is Holden Ford.
629
00:34:34,656 --> 00:34:36,950
Oh, yes, he is expecting your call.
630
00:34:37,826 --> 00:34:39,619
Can you tell me what this is about?
631
00:34:39,703 --> 00:34:43,081
Uh, you're listed as medical proxy
to one of our patients.
632
00:34:46,293 --> 00:34:48,753
I'm sorry, there must be
some kind of mistake.
633
00:34:49,504 --> 00:34:53,258
I don't think so. Edmund Kemper
specifically named you as his proxy.
634
00:34:54,843 --> 00:34:56,970
At this point, though,
he is out of danger.
635
00:34:57,621 --> 00:34:58,655
Danger?
636
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,516
Mr. Kemper tried to take
his own life last night.
637
00:35:03,727 --> 00:35:05,520
- Are you sure?
- Yes, sir.
638
00:35:06,104 --> 00:35:09,482
That's impossible.
I can't think that...
639
00:35:09,566 --> 00:35:11,860
Mr. Kemper came out of surgery
at 4:30 a.m.
640
00:35:11,943 --> 00:35:13,862
He's doing well, he's in recovery.
641
00:35:18,575 --> 00:35:20,327
- Hello?
- You need anything from me?
642
00:35:20,352 --> 00:35:21,692
The doctor will call
if we need anything.
643
00:35:21,717 --> 00:35:22,762
Okay.
644
00:35:28,293 --> 00:35:31,004
It seems the Office of
Professional Responsibility
645
00:35:31,129 --> 00:35:34,966
has found continuing evidence
for their investigation into our unit.
646
00:35:35,050 --> 00:35:36,343
"Continuing evidence"?
647
00:35:36,468 --> 00:35:37,802
They've got the tape.
648
00:35:39,137 --> 00:35:41,598
- How the hell'd they get that?
- I have no idea.
649
00:35:43,350 --> 00:35:45,935
But you three have been called
to meet with them.
650
00:35:46,019 --> 00:35:49,564
And since someone
has taken the high road for us,
651
00:35:50,774 --> 00:35:53,902
I recommend we all go forward
with total transparency.
652
00:36:05,246 --> 00:36:06,322
Is this you?
653
00:36:07,832 --> 00:36:09,000
Fuck you, Bill.
654
00:36:36,486 --> 00:36:37,821
Please state your name.
655
00:36:38,071 --> 00:36:40,073
Special Agent Holden Ford.
656
00:36:40,198 --> 00:36:41,584
In what capacity do you serve
657
00:36:41,609 --> 00:36:43,392
the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
658
00:36:43,868 --> 00:36:45,870
I work in the Behavioral Science Unit.
659
00:36:46,621 --> 00:36:48,039
You and Special Agent William Tench
660
00:36:48,123 --> 00:36:50,750
recently interviewed an inmate
named Richard Speck?
661
00:36:50,834 --> 00:36:53,169
- That's right.
- Did you record the interview?
662
00:36:53,253 --> 00:36:55,380
- Yes.
- Which of you recorded the interview?
663
00:36:55,463 --> 00:36:56,481
I did.
664
00:36:57,090 --> 00:36:58,505
You and Agent Tench interviewed
665
00:36:58,530 --> 00:37:00,151
several inmates over
the past few months.
666
00:37:00,176 --> 00:37:02,150
- Did you record those, too?
- Yes.
667
00:37:02,220 --> 00:37:04,305
- Who did the recording?
- I did.
668
00:37:04,389 --> 00:37:05,682
For what purpose?
669
00:37:05,765 --> 00:37:08,643
Archival purposes, documentation.
670
00:37:08,727 --> 00:37:11,062
- Is this trying, Agent Ford?
- I'm sorry?
671
00:37:11,146 --> 00:37:13,481
Do you find this process trying?
672
00:37:13,565 --> 00:37:14,858
I find it unnecessary.
673
00:37:16,234 --> 00:37:19,529
What did you do with the recording
when you returned to Quantico?
674
00:37:19,612 --> 00:37:21,906
I gave it to Agent Smith
to transcribe it.
675
00:37:21,990 --> 00:37:24,117
- Did he transcribe it?
- Yes.
676
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,619
- And did you look it over?
- Yes.
677
00:37:26,703 --> 00:37:28,621
Did you then decide it
should be redacted?
678
00:37:28,705 --> 00:37:29,914
Yes.
679
00:37:29,998 --> 00:37:31,458
Why did you decide that?
680
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:33,706
I felt there was a section that might
681
00:37:33,731 --> 00:37:37,863
be deemed sensitive by other parties.
682
00:37:37,922 --> 00:37:40,425
"Other parties" meaning whom?
683
00:37:40,508 --> 00:37:42,677
Other people at the FBI.
684
00:37:42,761 --> 00:37:46,139
And people at the LEAA,
which provides our funding.
685
00:37:47,015 --> 00:37:48,141
What section was this?
686
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,769
The section where I asked Speck
why he took
687
00:37:50,852 --> 00:37:54,147
"eight ripe cunts out of this world."
688
00:37:54,230 --> 00:37:56,357
You suddenly thought
that might not go over well.
689
00:37:56,441 --> 00:37:57,442
That's right.
690
00:37:58,693 --> 00:38:01,571
- Did anyone influence your decision?
- No.
691
00:38:01,654 --> 00:38:04,324
Your partner, Agent Tench.
Did he influence your decision?
692
00:38:04,407 --> 00:38:06,159
I made the decision on my own.
693
00:38:06,284 --> 00:38:09,245
What happened once you decided
this section was too sensitive
694
00:38:09,329 --> 00:38:11,080
to appear in the transcript?
695
00:38:11,164 --> 00:38:13,166
I asked Agent Smith to take it out.
696
00:38:13,291 --> 00:38:15,919
- Are you Agent Smith's supervisor?
- No.
697
00:38:16,002 --> 00:38:17,712
Who knew about the redaction
at this point?
698
00:38:17,796 --> 00:38:20,715
I knew, Agent Smith, and Agent Tench.
699
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,760
When the three of you met with us
to discuss Speck's complaint,
700
00:38:23,843 --> 00:38:26,513
whose decision was it to bring us
only the redacted transcript?
701
00:38:26,596 --> 00:38:28,056
It was my decision.
702
00:38:28,139 --> 00:38:29,766
- An unspoken agreement?
- Yes.
703
00:38:29,891 --> 00:38:32,477
Did you ask Agent Smith
to lie about erasing the tape?
704
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,188
- Not in so many words.
- What does that mean?
705
00:38:35,271 --> 00:38:36,773
I looked at him.
706
00:38:36,898 --> 00:38:38,942
I asked him to lie with my eyes.
707
00:38:40,527 --> 00:38:42,760
Did the redaction become
known to other people
708
00:38:42,785 --> 00:38:44,471
in the Behavioral Science Unit?
709
00:38:46,230 --> 00:38:47,722
Is this amusing, Agent Ford?
710
00:38:47,747 --> 00:38:49,710
It might be, if it weren't so feeble.
711
00:38:49,735 --> 00:38:50,778
I beg your pardon?
712
00:38:50,803 --> 00:38:52,058
You think I don't know
what you're doing
713
00:38:52,083 --> 00:38:53,603
with this principal's office bullshit?
714
00:38:53,849 --> 00:38:56,753
This is what I do with violent
offenders, only much better.
715
00:38:57,043 --> 00:38:59,921
Agent Ford, you stand accused
of lying to the FBI.
716
00:39:00,547 --> 00:39:02,215
Do you realize how serious that is?
717
00:39:02,298 --> 00:39:05,343
You used your badge to gain access
to the California Medical Facility
718
00:39:05,426 --> 00:39:06,719
without any official approval.
719
00:39:06,803 --> 00:39:08,703
To interview our first subject, Kemper,
720
00:39:08,743 --> 00:39:10,205
whose feedback launched our program.
721
00:39:10,265 --> 00:39:13,226
We're not concerned with what
you consider your achievements.
722
00:39:13,309 --> 00:39:14,669
We're concerned with your methods.
723
00:39:14,693 --> 00:39:17,897
The language used with Richard Speck
in the unredacted interview
724
00:39:17,981 --> 00:39:19,816
reflects extremely poorly on the Bureau.
725
00:39:19,941 --> 00:39:21,484
How about calling him a shit stain?
726
00:39:23,954 --> 00:39:25,154
You see what I mean.
727
00:39:25,179 --> 00:39:27,388
Agent, listen to what
we're telling you.
728
00:39:27,657 --> 00:39:31,953
Flashing your badge is one thing,
suppression of evidence is serious.
729
00:39:32,537 --> 00:39:35,137
You're developing a pattern of behavior
that will not sustain you.
730
00:39:35,161 --> 00:39:36,332
I just got back from Georgia,
731
00:39:36,416 --> 00:39:39,043
where my behavior
led to the arrest and confession
732
00:39:39,127 --> 00:39:41,963
of a man who raped and murdered
a 12-year-old girl.
733
00:39:42,046 --> 00:39:43,590
Surely my partner told you about that.
734
00:39:43,673 --> 00:39:46,434
Your partner expressed reservations
about the way you handle yourself.
735
00:39:46,759 --> 00:39:48,219
You're playing us off each other.
736
00:39:48,303 --> 00:39:49,751
He substantiates our concerns
737
00:39:49,776 --> 00:39:51,861
about your comportment
as a federal agent.
738
00:39:52,181 --> 00:39:53,975
We have that on tape.
739
00:39:54,058 --> 00:39:55,143
Fuck this.
740
00:39:56,895 --> 00:39:58,813
If you leave, I can't help you.
741
00:39:59,814 --> 00:40:01,570
I have to write a report on this.
742
00:40:01,595 --> 00:40:03,718
It will go down on
your permanent record.
743
00:40:04,319 --> 00:40:05,945
You're making a terrible mistake.
744
00:40:06,029 --> 00:40:09,490
The only mistake I made
was ever doubting myself.
745
00:40:20,293 --> 00:40:21,502
What'd you tell them, Bill?
746
00:40:23,212 --> 00:40:24,505
I told them the truth.
747
00:41:08,216 --> 00:41:10,885
Ladies and gentlemen,
we will be landing shortly.
748
00:41:33,658 --> 00:41:34,659
Sign here.
749
00:41:37,578 --> 00:41:38,596
Thank you.
750
00:41:59,934 --> 00:42:01,185
Edmund Kemper?
751
00:42:05,898 --> 00:42:06,899
Thank you.
752
00:42:37,972 --> 00:42:38,973
You came.
753
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,350
You made it hard not to.
754
00:42:41,434 --> 00:42:44,228
Well, I tried less dramatic methods.
755
00:42:44,312 --> 00:42:46,731
- Did you get my cards?
- Yes.
756
00:42:48,441 --> 00:42:51,861
Maybe it's not surprising
you respond to showmanship.
757
00:42:52,987 --> 00:42:55,573
Why do you want to see me, Ed?
758
00:42:57,533 --> 00:42:59,452
I read an article about you.
759
00:43:00,036 --> 00:43:02,330
About us, I should say.
760
00:43:02,413 --> 00:43:04,499
The Atlanta Constitution?
761
00:43:04,582 --> 00:43:06,793
The story was picked up by the AP.
762
00:43:08,002 --> 00:43:11,464
- Oh.
- You said we were friends.
763
00:43:16,135 --> 00:43:18,304
- Yes.
- Are we friends, Holden?
764
00:43:19,013 --> 00:43:22,767
In the context of our
work together, sure.
765
00:43:22,850 --> 00:43:24,268
Our work together.
766
00:43:24,894 --> 00:43:28,689
That's a nice way of putting it.
I'd categorize it the same way.
767
00:43:30,775 --> 00:43:33,111
And yet, our work is unfinished.
768
00:43:33,611 --> 00:43:36,322
- Okay.
- As I indicated in my letters.
769
00:43:37,031 --> 00:43:38,449
You have more...
770
00:43:40,034 --> 00:43:41,285
insights?
771
00:43:41,369 --> 00:43:42,403
I do.
772
00:43:44,038 --> 00:43:47,291
Well, I'm not going to trot them out
like some kind of show pony,
773
00:43:47,375 --> 00:43:50,086
especially when you've been talking
about me in my absence,
774
00:43:50,211 --> 00:43:53,214
using what I tell you
to legitimize yourself.
775
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:55,383
That story was not...
776
00:43:58,302 --> 00:44:01,514
I... had had a bit to drink.
777
00:44:02,348 --> 00:44:05,643
What's this behavioral profiling
you're touting?
778
00:44:06,936 --> 00:44:07,937
Well...
779
00:44:12,692 --> 00:44:16,028
it's a way to determine
a criminal's psychology
780
00:44:16,112 --> 00:44:19,407
based on crime scenes
and personal characteristics.
781
00:44:19,490 --> 00:44:21,075
I love that.
782
00:44:23,327 --> 00:44:25,413
What's my psychology?
783
00:44:25,496 --> 00:44:27,498
I can't really tell you that.
784
00:44:27,582 --> 00:44:29,417
You can't or you won't?
785
00:44:29,500 --> 00:44:32,879
- It's shoptalk, Ed.
- My favorite.
786
00:44:33,754 --> 00:44:35,631
We're at an early point in the research.
787
00:44:35,715 --> 00:44:39,302
Not so early that you can't babble
about it in the press.
788
00:44:39,385 --> 00:44:42,972
And you pretty much admit
that I started you down this path.
789
00:44:43,055 --> 00:44:47,685
So... I believe you owe me
an explanation, Holden.
790
00:44:51,647 --> 00:44:54,233
You're what we'd call
an organized killer.
791
00:44:54,317 --> 00:44:55,443
Mm-hmm.
792
00:44:56,027 --> 00:44:58,821
Because of the extreme planning
that went into your crimes.
793
00:45:00,072 --> 00:45:02,241
You practiced picking up women
several times
794
00:45:02,325 --> 00:45:04,160
before selecting your first victim.
795
00:45:04,285 --> 00:45:05,411
You used your own vehicle
796
00:45:05,494 --> 00:45:07,872
both in the kidnapping
and disposing of the bodies.
797
00:45:08,664 --> 00:45:10,374
You followed your crimes in the media,
798
00:45:10,458 --> 00:45:13,794
which shows evidence
of continued fantasy.
799
00:45:14,962 --> 00:45:16,130
Mm-hmm.
800
00:45:18,591 --> 00:45:19,800
That's the gist.
801
00:45:20,301 --> 00:45:23,512
You think you can boil me down
to a single adjective?
802
00:45:23,596 --> 00:45:27,975
Of course not. It's merely a
way to sort characteristics.
803
00:45:28,059 --> 00:45:30,061
- You're an expert now.
- No.
804
00:45:30,645 --> 00:45:33,522
- Sounds like it.
- I am not an expert.
805
00:45:34,023 --> 00:45:36,108
But you want to be, don't you?
806
00:45:42,156 --> 00:45:43,366
Yes.
807
00:45:50,581 --> 00:45:53,125
Human blood is very hot.
808
00:45:53,626 --> 00:45:57,129
On a cold, humid morning
you can see it steam.
809
00:45:57,213 --> 00:45:59,048
What are you doing, Ed?
810
00:45:59,131 --> 00:46:01,926
Someone left a ballpoint pen
on my court file.
811
00:46:02,009 --> 00:46:03,928
I used the metal casing.
812
00:46:07,098 --> 00:46:08,849
Is this what you wanted to see?
813
00:46:10,226 --> 00:46:11,936
Why would I want to see that?
814
00:46:14,355 --> 00:46:16,065
Take a closer look.
815
00:46:22,071 --> 00:46:23,948
That's okay. Really.
816
00:46:28,494 --> 00:46:31,622
You know, women were initially
indifferent to me.
817
00:46:32,957 --> 00:46:35,209
They weren't interested in sharing.
818
00:46:37,003 --> 00:46:40,006
My whole life,
no one wanted to interact with me.
819
00:46:40,089 --> 00:46:42,967
Not even our cats, when I was a kid.
820
00:46:55,271 --> 00:47:00,151
The only way I could have those girls
was to kill them, and it worked.
821
00:47:00,651 --> 00:47:03,863
They became my spirit wives.
They're still with me.
822
00:47:07,908 --> 00:47:13,039
Funny thing in the ICU,
there's no system to alert the guards.
823
00:47:13,914 --> 00:47:17,710
It's short-sighted,
seeing what kind of people come through.
824
00:47:19,420 --> 00:47:22,048
I could kill you now, pretty easily.
825
00:47:23,132 --> 00:47:26,510
Do some interesting things
before anyone showed up.
826
00:47:28,471 --> 00:47:30,598
Then you'd be with me in spirit.
827
00:47:33,517 --> 00:47:36,729
I invited you many times to visit,
828
00:47:36,854 --> 00:47:40,399
but even with this,
I never thought you'd actually come.
829
00:47:42,068 --> 00:47:44,070
Why are you here, Holden?
830
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:48,240
I don't know.
831
00:47:51,952 --> 00:47:53,412
Well, now...
832
00:47:54,830 --> 00:47:56,415
that is the truth.
833
00:48:24,527 --> 00:48:27,488
- Are you all right?
- I can't breathe. I can't breathe.
834
00:48:27,571 --> 00:48:29,198
- Did you take anything?
- I don't know.
835
00:48:29,281 --> 00:48:31,409
- Do you have any allergies?
- I don't know.
836
00:48:32,326 --> 00:48:33,352
I'm dying.
837
00:48:33,392 --> 00:48:35,555
You're not dying. You're in a hospital.
838
00:48:35,579 --> 00:48:36,819
I'm trying to warn you,
839
00:48:36,872 --> 00:48:38,874
your attitude
is gonna bite you in the ass.
840
00:48:38,958 --> 00:48:40,304
You're developing a pattern
841
00:48:40,344 --> 00:48:41,553
of behavior that will not sustain you.
842
00:48:41,578 --> 00:48:43,421
Not the gems you think you're mining.
843
00:48:43,504 --> 00:48:44,755
Are we friends, Holden?
844
00:48:45,923 --> 00:48:47,341
Get a doctor here!
845
00:48:47,842 --> 00:48:49,802
Who are you,
the fucking thought police?
846
00:48:49,885 --> 00:48:51,094
Torture, mutilation.
847
00:48:51,178 --> 00:48:53,597
That is your world,
and it has made you paranoid.
848
00:50:02,354 --> 00:50:07,354
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