Original subtitles

I saw that kid Spinks bust his ass the last time in Vegas.

Oh, he got way too confident, boy.

You should've seen that face when he left the ring.

The Norton fight, too. Ali didn't have a prayer.

- Norton's tough. - Huh!

Kept getting backed up into the corner.

His gloves up all around his ears.

Norton broke Ali's jaw.

I remember that.

Saw this interview with Ali's trainer.

He said he didn't know what was wrong.

The mouthpiece just kept coming out bloody.

Oh! Norton got a lot of shots in,

but still, that was something.

It is not an easy thing to break a human being's jaw.

Let me assure you...

that takes practice.

Hey, welcome to Oregon.

Thanks.

I'm Holden Ford, this is Bill Tench.

We're with the Federal Bureau of...

Can I get something to drink?

Sure. Coffee?

Coffee's okay, I guess.

- Could we get him a coffee, please? - Actually...

what I'd really love is some cigarettes and a pizza.

- Afraid we can't help you with that. - Really?

You're the FBI.

We can get you anything in the commissary.

Well, fuck you for wasting my time.

What?

Just messing with you guys.

Do you mind if we record?

I don't know. Tony, do we mind?

- You got the paperwork? - This was pre-approved.

- Hey, I didn't approve anything. - You don't have to do this, Jerry.

Okay.

I'll do it, as long as I know I don't have to.

- We'll take it from here. - Yeah, Tony, I'm good.

Mr. Brudos...

we are conducting interviews with people

who've been convicted of violent crimes.

What you discuss with us cannot be used

against you in your applications...

That's your recorder?

Electronics these days keep getting smaller.

Where's the mic?

See that little shiny part on the top?

No shit.

You should see the cameras coming out, fit in your pocket.

What you discuss with us

cannot be used against you in your applications for parole.

We will be asking you about your family history,

antecedent behavior,

and thought patterns surrounding the crimes you've been convicted of.

Our goal is to eventually publish a statistical analysis

which will not include your name.

Thought this was gonna break the monotony.

We can go straight to the questions, if you prefer.

Please.

Okay.

Let's discuss the pre-crime phase.

Specifically, the day before you killed

your first victim, Laura Sullivan.

I didn't kill Laura Sullivan.

You didn't kill...

They never found her body. I was never convicted of that murder.

- But you confessed to it. - Nope.

On... June 27, 1969,

you confessed to murdering

Laura Sullivan, Jane Weber, and Kathy Schmidt.

- Don't go by that. - Why not?

It was given under coercion.

You're saying it was forced?

I am looking at three consecutive life sentences

thanks to an elaborate plot by the Portland PD.

You pleaded guilty to three counts of murder.

They drugged me. Beat me.

Wouldn't let me talk to a lawyer.

Turned away my wife.

Told me they'd go after my kids if I didn't confess.

Are you saying you never met Laura Sullivan?

Yeah, I met her. She was wandering around my front yard.

- Selling encyclopedias. - That's right.

That part of the confession is correct?

Sure.

You said...

she was lost.

It was raining, she couldn't find the right address.

But you told her that you ordered the encyclopedias.

Nope.

You didn't say that?

We got to chatting.

She was an aspiring model.

Not surprising, she was beautiful.

I said I'd take some photos of her.

Is that when you invited her in,

- took her to the garage? - Yep.

Sent your wife and children out to get hamburgers?

I thought we could use privacy.

Then you hit her with a two-by-four?

Actually, I realized I didn't have any film.

I apologized for wasting her time, showed her out.

Okay.

The day before you met Laura Sullivan.

Can you tell me what you were feeling?

You consider yourself a bit of a photographer, right, Jerry?

Got my first camera at 15.

You're into ladies' fashions?

Mm... it's women, isn't it? Can't call them ladies anymore.

Women's fashions.

I've got my magazine subscriptions, I know what's going on.

- You subscribe to... - Mostly shoe catalogs.

Shoe catalogs.

It's my smut.

So you masturbate to it?

That's usually how it works.

Did you masturbate to the photos of your victims?

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

The photos the police found in your garage?

Did you see them?

They're sloppy. I didn't take those.

Actually, we did see them. There's one of them...

Holden, maybe you can find it.

Did you take this picture?

I don't remember.

Ever since the kids were small, I get these blackouts.

It's hypoglycemia, low blood sugar.

I could walk off the roof of a building and not know it.

You see that?

That's you in the photo.

Which means you took this photo.

Which means you killed that girl.

Boy, oh, boy.

Kemper was right.

Kemper?

He said you guys were idiots.

But I'd call you fucking morons.

Big Ed with his big mouth.

I bet you swallowed every fucking line that came out of him.

And he must have loved it.

Wait a minute. As far as I know, all his communication is monitored.

What can I say?

Prisons are like knitting circles.

Word gets around.

Fuck if I know. We should find out.

Well, yeah. It's got to affect the study

if our subjects are all pen pals.

I'll call the superintendent at Vacaville.

Or let's just go back and ask.

What are the chances the warden's gonna know what's going on?

You might as well call.

Do you really think that Kemper called us idiots?

It doesn't sound like Ed to me.

We could phone Kemper, ask him directly.

- Ask him if he called us idiots? - If he talks to Brudos.

Then we would be idiots.

Excuse me. I believe I'm in the middle seat.

Oh, yeah? Well, that's all right. You can have the aisle.

Yes, but that's the seat number on my ticket.

It's okay. My partner and I need to talk, works out for both of us.

I really think it's best if I sat in the seat that's on my ticket.

Thank you.

Hey, Holden.

Does this turn you on?

Oh...

- But it's sexy, right? - Well, no.

How different is it from this?

I'd say it's pretty different.

To us, maybe.

This one...

This could be in Playboy, easy.

Movies, TV.

Classic damsel in distress.

So what are you saying, advertising creates psychos?

All men are pervs?

No, but sex is our trigger.

I'm sure Wendy has a theory.

But this? This is how we get to him.

Please. I can switch with you.

I'm enjoying the leg room.

What can I say? Prisons are like knitting circles.

Word gets around.

- Fascinating. - You think so?

Hypoglycemia? Is he lying or denying?

My vote's with lying.

We can learn from what he doesn't tell us.

You're not always going to get a Chatty Cathy like Kemper.

Well, yeah, the whole talking to Kemper thing.

We called around. There's no evidence they were in touch.

- Which doesn't mean they haven't. - God, if only...

If they're corresponding, it could screw up our thing.

Really?

How is the study valid if our subjects can compare notes?

Wouldn't it be... cross-contamination?

What would these two guys talk about?

Would Brudos share with Kemper everything he's done?

These are two organized killers, but they're on opposite sides

of the spectrum when it comes to what they'll admit.

Kemper is overly forthcoming.

Brudos denies everything, even when confronted with evidence.

It's a new behavior to sort by:

post-conviction admission or non-admission of guilt.

You're excited about this.

I am.

We didn't get anything useful out of that prick.

I'm telling you, you did.

Maybe in an academic sense, but this isn't only about your study.

My study?

Once we've collected all the data, we can all apply it.

You mean, in four years?

I need coffee.

- The way he lies is very interesting. - How so?

Well, it's just so exaggerated.

He can't possibly expect you to believe him.

We called him on a lie, showed him evidence,

and that ended the interview.

So don't back him into a corner.

Guys, post-conviction sorting? What good is that?

We need pre-apprehension info, not post.

You know, Bill, all categories are important

for cross-referencing and sorting.

I bet you dinner that this guy's got more to add.

You read the story about the girl he held at knifepoint

when he was 15?

Made her undress, took pictures, locked her in a corncrib.

Then pretended to be his own twin brother.

Right. And he talked all about Jerry.

- That shows how fucked up he is. - Maybe.

There's something about disguise, pretending to be someone else.

It gives him room for what?

He said he started blacking out when his kids were small.

So he isn't averse to talking about his family.

Bill, you could talk about your son.

- No. - Try.

I'm not discussing my son with him.

Well, you don't have to talk about your family. You can make one up.

It's just about building rapport.

And he asked for stuff, cigarettes and pizza. Indulge him.

- When do you want to go back? - I don't.

Next week?

Sure.

Hey, Holden. I asked a buddy of mine with the Portland PD.

You might want to...

On two.

- Hello? - Mrs. Cooke?

- Yes? - Who's Mrs. Cooke?

- Mrs. Darcie Cooke? - Yes?

Hi. My name is Bill Tench, I'm with the FBI.

Is this about Jer?

About your ex-husband, Mr. Brudos.

Am I required to talk to you?

Well, no, but I only have a couple of questions.

I'm sorry, I changed my last name for a reason.

She said, "Is this about Jer?"

"Jer."

Those shirts looked good on you. I can't believe you didn't buy them.

I don't like patterns.

You know you dress the same off-duty as on-duty?

I'm wearing plain clothes.

Yeah, plain is right.

- Ooh... - No.

Seven and a half.

- Are you sure? I usually wear a seven. - Hmm.

Your shoes been a little tight lately?

My boots, maybe, a little.

Okay. Tell you what. I'll bring out seven-and-a-half in all these.

Yes, please. Are my feet getting bigger?

Well, it's just half a size. It's not that big a deal.

I don't want big feet.

- You do not have big feet. - That's right, and I don't want them.

- No way. - Come on.

I don't need new shoes.

Please.

- You look bitchin'. - Can I take it off now?

- You don't like them? - I look like a Village Person.

Ugh! Holden.

- Excuse me, sir. - Yes.

Could you tell me the largest size you have of that shoe?

That one?

- Yeah. - I'm not sure.

I have to go take a look.

Could you put a pair on hold for me?

Sure.

Hello, ladies.

Back for more?

Tell us where to sit.

That won't be necessary this time.

Great.

Want to arm wrestle?

How about a smoke?

Well, well, well.

I want him to light me.

How'd you get that scar?

Darcie...

found out I was chasing skirt at OSU.

- Came after me with a Ginsu. - No, really.

God's truth.

She loved horror films.

We'd appreciate honesty.

About my scar?

We know that you've been jumped in here a few times.

If you got all the answers, what do you need from me?

- We want details. - We want to know why.

Why what?

Let's start with the women's clothes.

Could you be more specific?

In her testimony,

your wife said you approached her dressed as a woman.

Hmm... she said...

whatever the police wanted her to say.

But you did approach her dressed as a woman.

- Are you married? - Yeah.

- What's your wife's name? - None of your business.

I appreciate honesty.

Nancy.

How does Nancy deal with things that she doesn't understand?

I don't follow.

Let's just say, my wife...

was less than adventurous.

- You were young when you got married. - Twenty-two. She was 17.

- What was it about her? - She popped my cherry.

That seems old-fashioned.

You married the first girl you had sex with?

It wasn't that unusual in 1961.

But you had... "interests" by then.

Stealing lingerie off of clotheslines.

You photographed a neighborhood girl naked when you were 15.

Just a healthy, red-blooded American male.

- What about the shoes? - What shoes?

In your garage.

- The women's shoes. - Ah.

The wife loved to shop.

There were nearly a hundred pairs. Most of them size 16.

Ah, those. Friends sent those to me.

- Friends? - That's right.

Why would friends send you shoes?

Started as a goof. Got out of hand.

That's interesting.

- What's that? - Hmm?

A reward for honesty.

Come on, Jerry. Your friends didn't send you those shoes.

What can I say, I'm a collector.

Do you wear them?

I don't have to.

Don't have to, to what?

- You know. - Get off.

He's adorable.

I thought wearing them was part of the allure?

- Why's he so interested? - I'm really just asking for Darcie.

She still doesn't get it. We caught up on the phone.

- Right. - Nice woman.

My wife...

wouldn't talk about me.

Ex-wife.

She had to divorce me to protect the kids.

And change her last name?

I'm sure it makes it easier for them in school.

What would they say to their friends?

Not just about the murders. How do you explain the cross-dressing?

"Dad's a tranny? Dad's a fag?"

Fuck you, man.

How does it fucking work with the shoes?

He is dying to know.

I'll pass it along to Darcie. Ten years later, she's still confused.

- Give her my love. - I'll do that... Jer.

Tony! Hey!

- Get in here! - What are you doing?

Go fuck yourselves.

- They're just questions. - I've had enough.

- What's going on? - I'm done.

- Wait a minute. - I'm done!

Bill, tell him.

We didn't talk to your stupid wife. She hung up on us.

And you're forgetting something.

Ah...

Brand new.

They're the biggest size they had.

You should have brought me a pair of Nancy's.

- Fuck you. - Fuck you.

So when did it start, your interest in women's shoes?

It didn't start. It was always there.

There must have been a moment during puberty when it became... sexual.

I got my first pair of heels at five.

Five?

- Five years old? - Stilettos.

Found them in the junkyard, brought 'em home.

Why?

Never seen anything like 'em before, except in pictures.

Didn't your mom wear heels?

Never.

What'd she think when you brought them home?

One time, my mom walked in on me jacking off.

Came into my bedroom.

- I hadn't locked the door. - Really?

- Yeah. - What'd she do?

I'd never seen her so shocked.

It's like I was doing something too horrible to even imagine.

She thought I needed help.

She offered to help?

Psychological help.

- My mom burned the shoes. - The stilettos?

Dragged me into the backyard,

poured kerosene all over 'em, lit 'em up.

- That must have been memorable. - She always said she wanted a girl.

She wanted you to be a girl?

She had my brother, that's what she wanted next.

- She told you this? - All the time.

Why was she so upset when you brought home the shoes?

I was wearing 'em around the house.

Were you trying to be what she wanted you to be?

What?

Were you trying to be a girl?

Fuck no, I never wanted to be a girl.

I liked the shoes.

I didn't know why she was so angry.

I took a pair of my teacher's shoes,

and she didn't lose her fucking mind.

Your teacher's shoes?

Mrs. Kernegan. First grade.

She'd kick her shoes off under the desk.

Heels?

Low, but stylish. She checked our book bags.

When she found them on me, I thought she'd go berserk,

but... she was just curious.

- About what? - Why I had taken them.

Women always want to know, don't they?

- At least they think they do. - Did Darcie want to know?

It's tricky when you're married.

You either have to deny yourself or...

keep a private space.

Like a golf course.

I put a lock on the garage, installed an intercom

so she could call in if she needed something from the freezer.

Wouldn't want her finding your trophies.

She would not have wanted that.

What the fuck?

Tony!

- That was amazing. - Yeah, that was great.

All that shit about his mom burning the shoes.

Uh-huh.

The high heels worked.

You could say that.

Let me ask you something.

Was that true about your mom walking in on you?

- Yeah. - It didn't bother you, using that?

Who doesn't have a weird story about their mom and sex?

You're telling a private, personal story to a murderous asshole.

It bothered me.

Is this about Nancy?

Nothing wrong with...

If what we're doing doesn't get under your skin,

you're more screwed up than I thought or kidding yourself.

You're just like a son to me. You never did nothing I told you to do.

Hey, Archie. We want you and Ma to come visit us out there.

Well, maybe your mother-in-law can do that, but, you know...

Hello?

Where are you?

They almost said it was our fault.

Jesus, Nancy. I don't know what to say.

Well, I was hoping for a little more than that.

I can't talk about this now. Okay?

Brian's teacher thinks we're not paying enough attention to this.

That's why he's acting out.

- We have to do something. - Uh-huh.

Is that a "Uh-huh, I know," or is that "Uh-huh, uh-huh"?

The first.

You want to go to Lamplighter tonight or not?

Sure. But why are you being like this?

Like I said, I really can't talk about this now. Okay?

- Did you finish it? - I did.

It's pretty great, right?

Can you believe what he said about his mom?

- Did you listen to it? - Mm-hmm.

What's in the box?

Holden's idea. You figure it out?

I'm guessing shoes.

He got an erection.

- Isn't that what you wanted? - We wanted to get him talking.

No, you baited him with those shoes

and you lied to him about his wife.

He pulled that bullshit about Kemper, so we used the same tactic.

- So it was revenge? - No. Speaking his language.

This is a scientific study, not a locker room hazing.

- Let me explain. - Please.

Guys communicate in a certain way.

It can be rough, but it's like a code, it gets out the conflict.

Well, thank you for illuminating me on male rituals.

You threw our questionnaire right out the window.

Your questionnaire, which wasn't working.

All you wanted to do was force him

to admit that he wears women's clothes.

Yeah, get under his disguise.

Cross-dressing is part of his psychology.

His fixation on women's clothes, women's bodies, wanting to own them,

wanting to inhabit them.

If we can understand that, we can recognize it in another killer.

Cross-dressing is not an antecedent to homicidal behavior.

I didn't say that.

For most people, it's a harmless form of expression.

- Most people? - Those who do it.

But it's usually sexual, right? And we know sex drives our subjects.

It's sometimes sexual.

Transvestism has been practiced in every era,

- in every human culture. - Come on.

If you want to teach a class, go back to Boston.

No, you weren't speaking his language.

You were persecuting him about something

that challenges your masculinity.

- What? - That interview was personal.

- No, this is personal. - Guys.

- You're being irrational. - Oh, Jesus.

- Where's this coming from? - I don't know.

Maybe shock at your total lack of objectivity.

- We were supposed to be objective? - Mm-hmm.

I seem to remember you encouraging us

to use our families to get to him.

- How objective is that? - We have to use strategies.

I said use fake information, as long as you establish rapport...

That's not what you said. And it's not possible.

It is not possible to communicate

with someone like Brudos and be fake.

We can hassle him or we can open up to him,

but either option has a cost.

Musical therapy.

She comes highly recommended.

She has like ten years of experience... Oh.

Thank you.

The only thing is, she's in Charlottesville.

I looked for someone in D.C.

You'd think they'd have music therapists in D.C.

with all the politicians' kids there,

but... maybe it's considered too alternative.

I don't know that she's a hippie. I only talked to her on the phone.

But she... she sounded very nice.

Professional.

I could drive him there once a week.

Maybe even get him out of school a little early,

which could also be a good thing, after what happened today.

- How much is she? - Forty-five.

An hour?

An hour and a half.

- Nancy, that's a lot. - You spend that much on a golf club.

Yeah, but when you buy a club, you have the club.

I got a recommendation for a child psychologist in Woodbridge,

much closer.

- You got a recommendation? When? - Mm-hmm.

About a month ago.

Why didn't you tell me?

Because I really don't want to send him to a shrink.

- Me neither. - But at that price,

I'd rather send him to a doctor than some hippie musician.

Please. This is not about the money.

Of course not.

I was...

I was hoping it wouldn't go this far.

It's a private school.

If he keeps biting other children, he's gonna get kicked out.

He's getting bullied, so he's defending himself.

We should have held him back a year.

I don't think that's the problem.

He's fine with me, he's great with Julie.

I've read a couple of books which recommend music therapy

when a child needs communication training.

"Communication training." Is that what the books call it?

Sure describes what we need.

I'm exhausted, Nancy. Could we table this for tonight?

Looks like we gotta do it ourselves.

Let's work on these ropes.

Hi, Julie.

It's no use!

We're home a little early tonight.

Hey.

Is everything okay?

Is Brian all right?

He's asleep.

Did something happen?

When I was putting him to bed, I found something under it.

- What did you find? - I don't have change,

so here's a little bonus.

She found this under Brian's bed.

Julie, I'm so sorry.

You know I'm an FBI agent. I work on some rough cases.

He must have got this out of my office.

I should lock that file cabinet.

Honey, you shouldn't have had to see that.

Brian saw it, too.

Of course.

- We really messed up. - I messed up.

He gets into things.

We need to keep a closer eye on him.

- We'll find a way to explain it. - I'll talk to him,

make sure he understands there's nothing wrong.

- Nothing's wrong? - Honey, come here.

- Are you all right? - Um...

I've been meaning to tell you,

my parents want me to get some real job experience,

so I'm applying at the mall and...

But you'd still be able to sit for us sometimes, right?

I think it's going to be hard.

Julie, honey...

you've been with us for years.

I'm sorry, Mrs. Tench.

Don't forget your money.

Please say goodbye to Brian for me.

Julie...

I know that file cabinet has a lock. I just have to find the key.

Or get a new one.

That one's 20 years old.

Kid's kind of a Houdini, though.

Maybe I should get a safe.

Why is it in the house at all?

It's work. I have to bring it home sometimes.

That? You have to bring that home?

What do you do with it?

Examine it for clues.

You don't tell me a thing about what you do.

Now you know why.

- You don't need to protect me. - I'm trying to protect everybody.

No, you need to protect your son.

What was he doing in my office in the first place?

We can't watch him every second. He's always trying to get in there.

Because he knows it's not allowed.

- I should put a lock on the door. - He's trying to get closer to you!

Sometimes I find him in our closet.

He's putting on your ties. He's walking around in your shoes.

I'm here on the weekends now. I'm putting in the time.

When you're not at the golf course, you're angling to get there.

When you're playing with him, you check your watch.

- Well, to be honest, he's not much fun. - He's not much fun?!

I know how that sounds, but I've tried.

- He's just not interested. - It takes more than turning up, Bill.

Okay, you... you need to play with him.

I can't have a conversation with him. I can't get a hug out of him.

I can't even get him to look me in the eye.

- He is not beyond hope. - Well, maybe I am.

Want to know what I do?

Want to see what I work on every night? Come on.

That's the tip of the iceberg.

A young mother with a boy Brian's age.

Killer did the same thing to him.

You want to see that photo? I got it here somewhere.

This one's interesting.

A woman who was stabbed, raped, breasts cut off.

Turns out it was her boyfriend, his brother, and their sister.

A little family affair.

Here's the one I'm working on now.

Lovely guy by the name of Jerry Brudos.

Murdered four women not much older than Julie.

Strung them up in his garage.

One of them came to his door accidentally.

One of them had car trouble.

One of them he grabbed from a parking garage

she was on her way to lunch with her mom.

I'm sorry.

I know.

I'm sorry.

Your favorite...

Quantico Blend.

Thank you.

- The mom. - Hmm?

The mom and the shoes.

Something happened there.

Clearly.

What was it?

Her reaction?

The force of it.

Burning the shoes seared them into his mind as forbidden.

Which became part of the sexual fantasy.

Then the teacher had an entirely different reaction.

So he's getting mixed messages

from two adult women about his impulses.

Brudos said that he was attracted to women's shoes before all of that.

He took the stilettos from the dump when he was five.

Not everyone agrees with Freud's theories on sexuality,

but he did hit upon how young we are

when we start to form preferences.

So when did that come in?

How did it get tied to his sexuality?

Was there a point at which someone could have... intervened?

Well, you're asking the right questions.

I want the right answers.

Don't we all.

- I'm glad you're here. - Well...

Hey, Bill. I've been thinking about another angle with Brudos.

Remember what Wendy said about deflecting responsibility?

Save it.

Fairfield Police Department.

May I speak with Detective McGraw? This is Bill Tench with the FBI.

He's out right now. Can I take a message?

Yes.

Ask him to look at the photos from the Ada Jeffries case.

- Ada Jeffries? - That's right.

Tell him to look at the knots that were used to tie her up.

They're nautical and Fairfield is landlocked.

- Okay, I'll let him know. - Thank you.

- You're back on Fairfield? - We said we'd take a look.

Are you sure there's still something...

Holden, leave me alone.

Somebody got up on the wrong side of the bed.

Bill.

What I was saying yesterday about remaining objective,

you were right, it's bullshit.

It's very hard.

I've been around crazy.

I was in the army.

Road School was a cakewalk.

I didn't mind talking about this stuff.

But... what the fuck did I even know?

These people are extremely damaged,

and they know how to cause damage.

I'm running on fumes.

Can you take a break?

- No. - Talk to someone?

- I'm talking to you. - No, a professional.

You are professional.

I'm your coworker. I can't be your therapist.

Therapist? It's not like that.

Times have changed. You don't have to be the good soldier.

He's fucking immune.

How do I tap into that?

- Hello, there. - Oh, my God. You look fantastic.

So do you.

I am so happy to be done with exams.

Mm... I made dinner.

Oh.

That was astounding.

Well, don't sound so surprised.

- You've been holding out on me. - Isn't that what nice girls do?

It worked. Marry me.

So I can cook for you? No.

To your culinary skills.

- To your fellatio skills. - Just stop.

To changing my life.

To opening my mind.

Inspiring me to go back to school.

Wasn't this toast about me?

I want you to know that I see you.

How dedicated you are, how disciplined.

Hey.

You have the courage to follow your curiosity.

Okay, enough.

And you put up with my tendency to go on.

That, I do.

I am truly delighted to be in your life.

Come on.

Come on.

Hold that thought.

What's wrong?

You don't like it?

No, I love it.

Are you okay?

It's weird.

This?

It's just... not you.

Yeah, Holden. That's the point.

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