All language subtitles for A.Radical.Life.2022.WEBRip.x264-ION10

John and I met online
when we were 19.

He was American, from an
upper middle class family in Texas.

I saw him as my ticket out.

We had big dreams,
to have lots of babies.

âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ.

Yes.

Very good.

Yeah.

- Yeah.
- Good job.

I really wanted my children to
be the best and the brightest.

I'm not going to let dummies
take over the world.

âRCHATTERINGÁ.

I had been taught
America is the enemy.

But once I was in America,
I didn't want to leave.

John was never going
to let us stay in America.

My name is Tania Joya

and I was married to the
highest ranking American in ISIS.

This is my story.

I was born in 1983,
north-west of London.

But my parents are
Bangladeshi origin.

Growing up in the UK,

there was a conflict of identity.

I couldn't identify as
being Bangladeshi,

I don't have a Bangladeshi passport,
I barely speak the language.

I understand I'm ethnically
Bengali but, even as a child,

I had a lot of snobbery
against my own culture.

If anybody asked me what
I wanted to be, I would say,

"I want to grow up to
be an Englishwoman.

They're so fair and
beautiful and free

and they can wear
what they like and..."

I know that, as a Bengali Muslim
girl, that's out of the question.

I wasn't raised as an extremist.

Religion was just a way of
controlling the girls in particular,

so that we wouldn't
be too westernized.

In my family, western values
were seen as being haram,

which means forbidden.

I wanted to be a dancer
when I was young.

I really liked boys to men and
âRLAUGHSÁ I was crazy about Madonna.

I would always, like, perform for
my family, going "Like a virgin".

All the time, they'd
all giggle and laugh

and I didn't know what I was saying.

Being the youngest of four girls,

I needed to be the
center of attention,

otherwise I'd get forgotten.

But once I became a radical,
I threw that all away.

My family lived in Harrow.

My Mom would
always do catering work,

and my Dad, he had a lot
of problems keeping a job.

In my neighbourhood, I
experienced racism every day.

âRRALLY IN PROCESSIONÁ

In the 80s and 90s,

there were these clashes between
the skinheads and Asian groups.

In the East End of London,

the openly racist British
National Party take to the streets.

The number of racial
attacks has doubled in a year.

There have been 1500 cases
of harassment and assault

directed mostly at Asians.

Our neighbours would
smash our windows.

They would always have German
Shepherd dogs that would attack us.

They would poop on my parents' car.

They treated us
like we were so alien.

My parents would
have to call the police,

but we knew that they
weren't going to help us.

I developed a fear
of leaving my house.

When we were in High School,

my family and I
moved to East London.

It was a working class community
and people were far more religious.

They were a lot less
westernized than I was.

If I was wearing jeans,
or heels, or makeup,

just being feminine,
I would be *** shamed.

Boys just started spreading
horrible rumors about me,

so I didn't have any friends.

I became so depressed and isolated,

I was willing just to do
anything to make my life better.

September 2001,

I come home from school
and I switch on the news

and I see the images of the
planes flying into the twin towers.

The United States has been
hit by what's been described

as the worst act of terrorism
the world has ever seen.

The plane has crashed
into the World Trade Center.

We have no idea

how many were on board

or what the extent of
the injuries are right now.

Oh, there's another one.
Another plane just hit.

But I-- Oh my God!

Another plane has just hit.
Explosion.

And we were shocked and we
was, like, just flabbergasted by it.

Horrified.

They started reporting that it was
by somebody called Osama Bin Laden

who I'd never heard of before.

People with links to the
Osama Bin Laden organization

are responsible for today's attacks.

And the terrorists are
trying to send a message.

They have attacked
the most prominent

landmark of American capitalism.

We may be weeping over
the people who are dying,

and in parts of the world
they're celebrating America's

been given a taste of its
own medicine as they see it.

The next day,

in my politics class I
was sitting next to a girl

who I really looked
up to and I said,

"Wasn't it terrible what
happened on the news and

the--, the twin towers
were attacked" and she said,

"Is it so terrible?
Is it so bad?"

And I was shocked. I was, like,

"Oh, maybe she couldn't hear me."
So I said, "Wasn't it horrible?"

And she said,
"Oh, you don't understand.

Just come home to
my house after school

and my Mom will
explain to you why it,

it's not so bad."

I went to her house after school,

and her Mom told me
who Osama Bin Laden was.

He was a warrior.

He was the Robin Hood
of the Muslim community.

He threw away a life of
luxury to be on the front lines.

It was like a fairytale story.

I was just taken with it.

I was, like, "Oh, I love this man.

He's a hero."

âRFOREIGN
DIALOGUEÁ.

They explained to me about jihad.

In a jihad, it's when you're
fighting conflict in your mind.

Outward jihad is holy war.

Osama Bin Laden was telling us
it's an obligation on every Muslim,

when they're being
attacked, to fight back.

âRFOREIGN
DIALOGUEÁ.

As a 17, 18-year-old,
hearing all this,

it seemed very appealing.

I was feeding into
we're the victims,

and I already knew
that and felt that.

I remember hearing President
Bush speaking about a crusade.

This crusade...

....this war on terrorism,

it is time for us to win

the first war of the
twenty-first century decisively.

That word crusade

only confirmed our beliefs
that it's a war against Islam.

Slowly I stopped
dressing as western and

I started wearing
more cultural clothes.

Eventually, it was the hijab

and wearing the
jilbab which is the robes

and I went into
school wearing a niqab.

One of the boys
called out to me to say,

"Hey, you're Osama Bin Laden's wife"

and I turned around
and said, "I wish."

I wanted to prove to the Muslims at
my school that I was a new person.

I'm no longer that flirtatious,
fun, colourful Tania.

I am a holy righteous woman
who believes in Mohamed and God.

It felt like I was invisible,
and I wanted to be invisible.

I didn't want to be Tania anymore.

Nobody knew or understood what was
going on with my psychologically.

I didn't have anyone to explain, you
know, you're being indoctrinated.

My radicalization absolutely
was a big FU to the UK,

because of the rejection that I
had felt my whole life growing up.

I was really intrigued by
the idea of Muslim power,

because growing up I
felt very powerless and

I was a bit hungry for power.

My parents were not happy at all.

I remember my Mom saying,

"Oh, you're
throwing away all your ambition."

I was, like,
"What are you talking about?

I have got lot of ambition.
I want to take over the world.

Don't tell me that's not ambitious."

My Dad used to yell at me.

He was, like,
"I'm going to throw you out."

I was, like, "Don't. You don't have
to, I'm going to leave, you know,

I'm just...I'm working on it."

I didn't get along
with my Dad at all,

I actually hated him a lot.

And I didn't like my
Mom because she always

covered the wrong
doings that my Dad did.

I was really just so
desperate to leave my life.

In my family's culture, girls don't
leave home unless they're married.

I didn't really feel
ready to get married,

but it was the only way out for me.

I wasn't going to allow my parents
to arrange a marriage for me.

I always said no way.
I will pick myself.

At school, we would exchange
magazines and material on Islam.

We used to get a lot of
information about the abuses

that the American
military would commit.

Raping women in Iraq,

Abu Ghraib.

The American military were
humiliating the Muslim population.

It made me angry.
It made everybody angry.

One of the magazines was
talking about John Walker Lind.

John Walker Lind.

He went to the Middle East to
study Islam but joined the Taliban.

John Walker Lind will be charged
with conspiracy to kill Americans.

My friends and I liked
John Walker Lind because

he was an American convert.

He fascinated us that he would

leave somewhere like
American to be part of our world.

To us he was just a
hero and it was, like,

"Oh, wow, if only I could have
someone like him to marry.

âRPEOPLE SHOUTING IN RALLYÁ

In 2002, I was at a rally in London.

Some Muslim men
were giving out fliers,

and on the fliers was the
website Muslim Matrimony.

It's not even Muslim dating.

You go there to look
for somebody to marry.

So I went online.

I was curious to
see what I would find.

There were Muslim men
from all over the world.

I wrote that I am a devout
Sunni Muslim looking to travel.

That I like cooking.
I'm very domesticated.

Want to have lots of babies.

I'm looking for a very
pious Muslim husband.

Was very simple.

I didn't put a picture of myself.

Images in Islam, a lot of
people think it's forbidden.

And bang, you get 600 messages.

A man named Yahya found me.

Yahya is the Arabic
equivalent of John.

He was a white upper
middle class American.

He was in Syria at the time,
studying Arabic and Damascus.

He was the same age as me, 19.

And he kept pestering me.

He kept messaging
me and I was, like, no,

I'm really looking for someone
more experienced with life

and you're just a bit too young

and I don't really understand
how and why an American

from a upper middle
class family is in Damascus.

But I was also very intrigued.

After September 11, I watched
a lot of Al-Qaeda propaganda.

Tough warrior men
fighting a holy war,

and taking care of women
and protecting them.

I totally fell for it,

thinking I'm just going
to get married and

travel to the Middle East
and live an adventure.

I thought it would be very
romantic, like Aladdin. âRCHUCKLESÁ

I saw Yahya as my ticket out.

In 2014, I was investigating
anyone I could find

who was important in
the ecosystem of ISIS.

I met a very influential
figure online in Australia.

Musa Cerantonio.

Musa was part of a certain
sect of English-speaking jihadists

who were loyal to ISIS.

And he said, "I have a
teacher, his name's Yahya".

And Musa suggested that Yahya

was part of the leadership
structures of ISIS itself.

Musa then told me that
Yahya was American.

That seemed like something
that I should be investigating.

Yahya had a lot of pseudonyms,

and there were little breadcrumbs
that he left in those names.

If you call yourself Abu Hassan,

that suggests they have
a son named Hassan.

If you call yourself
Yahya al-Bahrumi,

that name Bahrumi

suggests that you have
something to do with Mediterranean.

He chose names that were
just idiosyncratic enough

that if there was someone
who really wanted to dig in there,

they might be able to find him

and that person
turned out to be me.

Yahya was an American
named John Georgelas.

When I learned about John Georgelas,

I showed up at his last
known address in America

which was his parents'
home in Dallas, Texas.

Nice houses inhabited
by doctors, low crime area.

But when I found out that John lived
in this pleasantly boring place,

I was shocked.

John's father came out
and he spoke to me briefly.

It was with exactly
the kind of sadness

that you'd expect from a father
who has, in effect, lost a son.

He said that his son had
gone down the wrong path

over and over in his life.

The family had rescued him

with money, with
housing, with support.

They had given him every chance

to get on a better path and
he chose the wrong one.

John came from a family
that was extremely prosperous.

His grandfather was a
war hero in the US Army,

and his father had served in
the Air Force as a physician.

These are real patriots.

When John decides to rebel,

he found outlets that were
as diametrically opposed

to his family's patriotism
as he could find.

By the time he went
off to college in 2001,

the 911 attacks would happen.

John decided to go into a
mosque and convert to Islam.

I can hear you.
The rest of the world hears you.

And the people who
knocked these buildings down

will hear all of us soon.

âRCHEERING AND APPLAUSINGÁ.

In the days after 911,

you had this moment of binarism

where you could be
on the side of America

or you could be on the
side of Osama Bin Laden.

For someone like John,

converting to Islam is a
really potent way to rebel.

So he sells his truck

and moves to Damascus,
to study classical Arabic.

While in Syria,

he slid deeper and deeper into

a really extreme form
of global jihadism.

âRFOREIGN LANGUAGEÁ

The pathway to radicalization
is certainly not unique to Islam.

It often starts with an
individual who's vulnerable,

lost and looking for answers,

and if the right group comes
along with the right story,

they can usually
win that person over.

The Al-Qaeda narrative of

unfair discrimination against
the Muslim community, the Omah,

was felt very, very strongly.

They portrayed themselves
as communities under attack.

âRFOREIGN
DIALOGUEÁ.

The notion of jihad

i--, is a very
contested notion that,

by the way, does not
necessarily mean fighting.

For most Muslims, the
idea of the greater Jihad

is actually supposed to be your

own personal struggle
to be a better person.

The lesser jihad is to take up arms
in defense if you are under attack.

A lot of followers and
supporters of Al-Qaeda

comfortably describe
themselves as jihadists

because they saw themselves
as defending their community.

The religious text just gives
them some kind of veneer of validity

but groups like Al-Qaeda

are not so much about
religion as they are about power.

John and I would email quite often.

He would say to
me, my weapon is not

the sword.
My weapon's the keyboard.

He told me that he's very good at
coding with computers and hacking.

On the Muslim Matrimony website,
you can't say words like jihad,

but we would go around it

so it was very clear that
our values were the same.

Jihad, children, dying, heaven.

I thought he was going to
be the key to heaven for me,

because he was so devout.

But he wasn't just this
rigid conservative guy.

He was funny and charming.

And, you know, his photos, he
was cute, he was very handsome.

What I really liked about
John was that he was a convert.

Cat Stevens had converted to Islam,
so we all looked up to him.

We loved his music and we all
wanted to marry a Cat Stevens.

âRLAUGHSÁ And John was the closest
thing I could get to a Cat Stevens

and I wanted to show my
friends that I could get that.

John and I only spoke
online for about three months.

I hadn't even spoken
to him on the phone.

He agreed to come to
the UK to meet my family.

He came to dinner
at my uncle's house.

When I saw John, I was not happy.

He looked really rough.

He had his linen pants
and his loose shirt.

His running shoes were terrible.

It wasn't the nice pictured
he'd shown me in a email

where he looked all polished.

I was all dressed up in my, like,

fancy hijab and jilbab

that my grandmother
had bought me from Dubai.

Of course, John didn't like that.

He wanted me to look
like a good pious wife.

I made this really nice dessert and
it had walnuts in it and he said,

"Oh, I don't eat
food with nuts in it"

and I was, like, "Well I
don't like fussy eaters,

and I made this for you
so you're going to eat it."

I remember telling my
aunt, "I don't like him."

But they accepted
John because he was

a white upper middle class American.

His Dad was a doctor
and my Mom thought,

"Ah, well, she gets into
trouble, they'll take care of her."

So I just kept my mouth shut.

Three days after we met,
we did our religious ceremony.

We did it very quietly.

My Uncle had appointed
an Imam to be my chaperon.

The other relatives who were
supposed to show up as witnesses

didn't attend,

and John, none of
his family would come

because they were unhappy
with him being a Muslim

and unhappy with him getting
married at such a young age.

I, I was just sobbing my eyes out.

John was a stranger and one
that I'm not very attracted to.

But, you know, for centuries, women
from my culture had to do this.

They married men that other
people chose and it worked out.

I was taught by my Mom
falling in love was dangerous.

Love comes after marriage,

and it takes years so I
just figured this is how

the world has always been up until

a hundred years ago when romance
became a factor. âRCHUCKLESÁ

Then John stepped
on my foot on purpose.

I was..."What are you doing?"

And then he was like, "That's
what we do in Greek marriages.

The man steps on the woman's
foot to say he's in charge."

That was my wedding day.

After the wedding,
John and I moved to Texas.

We lived in an
apartment in North Dallas,

and we went to visit
John's parents in Plano

and I was just, my jaw dropped.

This is the life.

I was, like, I have never even
seen a place so beautiful like this.

John's parents had
a big swimming pool.

I didn't know how to swim.

So John taught me how to swim,

and that was really cute
and he was a great swimmer.

That was the first time
I saw his playful side.

I thought it was adorable.

He would always go skateboarding
and it was cute to see him do that.

I loved his American side.

That's where I
became attached to him.

John's parents, Tim and Martha,
were Greek Orthodox Christian.

John's Mom was always,
like, nice and loving.

She was more loving
than my own mother was.

John's Dad, he was
really well accomplished.

John always felt like he
was frowned on by his father.

He wasn't tall enough.

He wasn't athletic enough,
you know, he wasn't his Dad.

They never wanted to
discuss religion with us.

If religion was spoken about,
it would cause an argument.

John and I were very much
stuck in an extremist mindset.

We were very, very isolated.

We didn't go to mosques 'cause we
believed mosques are full of spies.

I stayed most of the time at home.

I wasn't allowed to watch TV.

I always wore fashionable
clothes underneath my robes,

but John insisted no more heels.

John put a lot of pressure on me
to change my name from Tania.

He said you have to take
an Arabic Muslim name.

So I went by the name Yahya.

When I got married to John,
he was now in charge of me.

If I disobeyed him, I
was disobeying God

because the scripture says

obey those in authority over you

and we believed only
men that are in authority.

John became my demi-god.

But John and I had big dreams.

Let's have seven sons,
one to take over each continent.

We both believed to live
your life in the path of Allah

means raising militant kids.

So I got pregnant.

My first son, Michael,
was born on my 21st birthday.

I loved, I loved that he
was born on my birthday.

I was always encouraging him

that you're going to grow up
and be a soldier for God.

You're going to be a warrior.

At the time, I thought we were
only doing good for the world.

So how do you reconcile
living in the United States,

but also hating America and
supporting killing Americans?

As extremist Muslims, you can't live
in any country that's considered,

like, Dar al-Harb, a land of war

unless you have some per--,
like a real legitimate reason,

like either you're stuck
there or you're working

to ha--, get the means to get out.

Or, the third is to attack.

So John and I, we came to America

so that he could earn money
so that we could go back to Syria.

John got a job at Rack Space.

They web posted websites
for Fortune 500 companies.

At the same time, John was talking
on a website called Jihad Unspun.

This website had all
Al-Qaeda propaganda.

They were selling videos
by Osama Bin Laden,

and John was fascinated
and he loved this website

and he reached out and he said,

"If I can help you with any
technical work, or any coding,

I'm happy to do that."

John's friends and I
were saying don't trust it.

Like you can't have a
website promoting Mujahideen

and Jihad and think that
it's a legitimate website.

I kept, like, having

the visions and dreams
that he's going to go to prison,

and he just thought I was just being
silly and worried for no reason.

April 2006, we were called to pray.

âRFOREIGN LANGUAGEÁ

John showed me this video.

It's a song called
âRSPECIALIST TERMINOLOGYÁ.

It's a really beautiful
song about the strangers.

It's a line using Islamic
scripture saying that

the believers will come in
this world and live as strangers.

You know, basically, alienated
and blessed are the strangers.

Right after listening to that song,

that's when the knock
on the door came.

âRDOOR KNOCKINGÁ

They said, "Open the door. It's FBI.

Put your hands up."

The FBI Agents separated us.

They went through all our
stuff and made a big mess,

you know, trying to look for
evidence that could incriminate him.

He was arrested.

He said, "I'll be home
after the weekend."

John was arrested for illegally
accessing and damaging an account

controlled by the American
Israel Public Affairs Committee.

A pro-Israel lobbying organization.

John is eventually
sentenced to 34 months

in a federal prison
in Seagoville, Texas.

He spent a lot of it with a
small group of Muslim prisoners

and with Islamic texts.

These weren't
necessarily jihadist texts,

but they were the
classical sources of Islam.

There's a tendency to assume

that jihadists
are not really intellectual types.

You know, they're interested in

really counter-intellectual things
like cutting off people's heads,

shooting guns into the sky.

But his pursuits were
deeply intellectual.

This is a guy who had
immersed himself in Islam,

who had learned classical Arabic.

He was thinking back into
the Muslim past and finding

what the deep obligations
are of Muslims in the present.

In principle, among
those obligations,

was creating a Muslim
state, the Caliphate.

The Caliphate is kind
of the reconstitution

of the Muslim community

as a political
and religious entity.

For supporters of Al-Qaeda,

the idea that a Caliphate
might come was a certainty,

but they thought it would
be hundreds of years,

maybe thousands of years.

Muslims like John thought

the highest expression of
the religion would be to revive

the Caliphate now.

Not tomorrow.

Not a year from now,

not when most Muslims are
on board with it, but right now.

While John was in prison,

I was living in an apartment
that his parents were paying for.

John was trying to
make me go to Nigeria

to be with other Islamists and
he was saying that I have to.

That was actually the very first
time in our marriage that I said no.

No, way.

Having space from John
gave me room to grow.

I got to have my television,
my large screen television.

I got to watch PBS.

I got to watch things that
he wanted to keep from me.

I was able to spend
more time outside,

and I saw how friendly people were.

I'd be covered and I was
miserable being covered

and some girl in, like, short
shorts is jogging, saying hi to us.

I'm, like, "What
the--? She just said hi.

That's crazy."

And then...but
everybody was saying hi.

M..., my heart melted.

I started wearing my
regular clothes outside.

It was something I felt I had to do

because I did not like
people viewing me as a threat,

'cause I liked them.
I wanted my neighbours to say hello.

I wanted to say
hello to them without

them thinking negatively of me.

I would have taken off my hijab but

that was pushing it too
far for John. âRLAUGHSÁ

I would say those were the
best three years of my marriage

out of the ten years that
we were together 'cause

it's where I was able to grow and,

you know, put my foot down and
I, I started thinking for myself.

Tonight, I can report to the
American people and to the world

that the United States has
conducted an operation that killed

Osama Bin Laden,
the leader of Al-Qaeda.

Spontaneous, patriotic celebration

at the death of public enemy
number one outside the White House.

The United States has the
body of Osama Bin Laden,

the mastermind of 911,
the architect of Al-Qaeda.

Just think of what this means.

In May of 2011,
Osama Bin Laden is killed.

You hear about it.
Tell me what the reaction is.

Well I cried the whole day.

I was very, very sad
and I was angry. âRSIGHSÁ.

And, like...I wasn't
upset that he was dead,

I was more upset with the lies.

He got killed o--, on land,

but they took him out on a ship.

I don't know.

Maybe I'm d--, everyone's
going to be made at me but...

could have some level
of respect for the dead.

He wasn't like some
common person, you know?

It just...they could, the
least they could have done is

given his body back to his family

and they always say the stupid,
the same thing about when s--,

one of these
leaders, jihadists, die.

"Oh, they squealed like little girls

and hid behind their
wives and children."

That's all bull---.
These guys are not cowards.

They face death every single
day for 20 something years.

Go in and out of
prisons being tortured,

still care about their cause,

and they're going to hid behind
a woman and their children?

No they're not.
They're not.

Even suicide bombers,
it's not a cowardly act.

âRCHUCKLESÁ
It takes courage to kill yourself,

but it takes courage
also to fight a war.

Let me ask you something
because i--, I can sense---

When I'm going to my Muslim life,

when you, when you ask
me about how I felt back then,

I can only tell you
what Nija thought,

and, but m--, me
now isn't, I just, like...

it's a different, it's like
two different people,

you know, because I'm not the same.

A person's belief system changes and
that person is, is a new version.

In ten years, who knows what
version I'm going to be then.

It's not a bad thing,
I think it's kind of good.

âRSIGHSÁ.
I'm growing.

When John came out of prison,

John was always saying as
soon as I come off probation,

we're leaving straightaway.

I didn't want to leave.

I was pregnant with my third son.

I was just so comfortable in my home

and I just wanted, like,
a nest for my babies.

I didn't want to
disrupt my kids' lives

but I depended on him to look after
me, and I couldn't go get a job.

I didn't even graduate
from High School.

And whether I agree with
him or not, I had to obey him.

And Egypt was the
ideal place for John to go.

âRPEOPLE SHOUTING AND CHANTINGÁ.

The Arab Spring Protests

have now led to the downfall of
dictators in Tunisia,

Egypt and Libya.

In just a few months,

so much has changed
with new parties,

newspapers and the
liberating force of social media,

that the old Arab world
can't be reinvented.

Egypt in 2011 was
a very different place.

The Arab Spring had happened
and John thought that Egypt

was the place where
Islamists could come together

and plot to figure out a way
to implement an Islamic state.

There was no government
in Egypt for over a year.

It gave us a lot of freedom to just
say whatever we believed online.

John had a blog.

On John's blog he translated
every bit of information

from every scholar he
could get his hands on

about the requirements
to establish a Caliphate.

This drew attention from all
different types of Muslims who

were also seeking and wondering
why we don't have a state.

It wasn't as if everybody
just immediately understood

what a Caliphate was,

and John thought his
role was to educate people

about this obligation that,

once a Caliphate exists,
then you have to go to it.

You have to pledge
your loyalty to it.

More and more of his
essay were describing

very specific obligations of
violence in defense of Islam.

And it reflected the view of ISIS.

When the Islamic State
developed in Iraq in the mid-2000s,

it was a movement that had
decided as a matter of doctrine

that it would be as violent,
as intolerant as possible.

To ISIS, savagery wasn't a
means to an end, it was the end.

The Islamic State was more
violent, more aggressive,

more vocal with its ambitions
and what it wanted to do,

which was to
actually rule territory.

Al-Qaeda as a below ground
military organization was cellular.

You have a small Al-Qaeda group
here, small Al-Qaeda group there.

ISIS was a mass movement.

It is we need all
Muslims to come together.

All to come to a
particular patch of land.

They didn't want to be a
secretive Delta Force in caves,

they wanted a come one, come
all approach to building a state.

During the time when John
and Tania were in Egypt,

ISIS hadn't yet said
we are the Caliphate.

It was still trying to
expand its territory.

But it seemed more and more like
the thing that John specifically

was longing for in
telling his followers

to look for so that they can
support it when it arrived.

Okay, read to Mommy.

People have many
questions about Mars.

I didn't get to talk online much.

My hands were full with cooking,
and cleaning, and babies, and

home-schooling.

At this time, John and I had
three young children, all boys.

Very good.

- Yeah!
- Yay.

Get him to sit closer to you.

What's this then?

âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ.

âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ.

Yay.

When we first got to Egypt,

we lived in a condo and
it was really hoity-toity.

We couldn't actually
afford it but we tried.

I love home decorating.

I had lanterns that were
handmade in Arabic script.

I had a couch that was custom made.

I had put so much effort into
building my home to be beautiful.

John's occupation and
how we paid the bills was

he was a translator for
the Government of Qatar.

He was also teaching at
an American private school,

but I couldn't put my kids
in school there because

private schools are very expensive.

So I had to home school.

That was also my way
of preventing them from

mixing with non-Muslim kids.

John and I were very
afraid of what our kids

would pick up and learn from them.

Where is the colour
âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ?

- Uh, âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ.
- Where's âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ?

- There.
- âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ. Good boy.

Where is âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ?

Uh, there.

I really wanted my children to
be the best and the brightest.

Uh...there. There.

Yes.

I was like, okay, we
got a lot of competition.

We got the Chinese,
and we got Americans.

You gotta outsmart our enemies.

So I put a strong emphasis
on them learning to read.

- Read this word.
- âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ.

What does this word say?

Read it, read it and count.

- âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ.
- Very good. Very good.

I made sure Michael learned
how to read by the age of three.

With Laith, I learned about a
program called Your Baby Can Read.

Just DVDs and flash cards,
two hours every day.

Ready?

- Yeah.
- Look.

âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ.

God.

Laith learned to
read at nine months.

Allah.

Write in Arabic. âRLAUGHSÁ.

People would ask me, like,
what drives you to do that?

And I was like, I'm not going to
let dummies take over the world,

you know, they've
gotta be super smart.

They've gotta be wicked smart.

Deadliest. Warrior.
Deadliest warrior.

Deadliest warrior.
Deadliest warrior.

Deadliest warrior.

Fight.

Everybody looked up to me

for being a good mother and
devoting myself to his learning,

and it really felt like,
"Wow, I succeeded.

I can turn babies into geniuses."

Their education was
really important to me,

but it was like a
double-edged sword.

Just seeing how incredibly
smart they were made me realize,

John, I really want
them to go to university

rather than destroy society.

I really want them to
contribute to the world.

They had so much potential.

But John wouldn't have it.

He was, like, no.

They don't need a western education.

They don't need university.

They need an Islamic education.

John would take Michael out
to the desert with his friends.

They would go shooting
sparrows and things.

Michael didn't like it
'cause he loved animals

and he thought it was really
sad to be shooting birds and stuff.

His Dad never taught
him how to ride a bike,

he didn't teach him
how to catch a ball,

but he taught him how to use a gun.

And then one time Michael
comes in with a grenade.

I've never seen this in my life.

I've never seen a grenade
and it's right in front of me,

and it's my seven-year-old
child holding it,

and I w--, I pulled a
kitchen knife out on John

and I was waving it around
and I was just, like, I'm going to,

one day I'm going to stab you.

I hate what you're doing.
You're exposing your kids to this.

I was just so, so mad.

I was, like, you guys are
grown men but you are idiots.

I was tired. I, I didn't
want to live on the edge.

I didn't--, I got tired
of this, the jihiadi life

and I, I really wanted to just
live a comfortable family life.

Stable life.

But John had other plans.

âRGUNS FIRINGÁ
âRPEOPLE SHOUTINGÁ

Easily the most disastrous
outcome of the Arab Spring

was the attempted uprising
against Bashar Al Assad in Syria.

Peaceful protests in
Syria have turned violent

as rebel groups fight to overthrow

one of the Middle East's
last remaining dictators.

In 2013, Syria was
an utter hell-scape.

It had been ravaged by Civil War.

The Syrian Government is
still committing horrific crimes.

There was violence left and right.

The images are gut-wrenching.

Many of the victim's
children, even infants.

When the Syrian Revolution
turned very violent,

that created this massive vacuum
for jihadist groups to operate.

âREXPLODEÁ

One of the biggest players

was the Islamic State
of Iraq and Sham, ISIS.

By 2013, ISIS was controlling
large swathes of territory,

mostly in Northern Iraq.

ISIS expanded into Syria
because Syria was lawless territory.

From his home in Egypt,

John increasingly saw that Syria

was where his life was leading,

and to some extent
Tania and the kids

were becoming encumbrances

and what he really needed
to do was to go and fight.

John was pressuring
me to go to Syria.

I didn't want to take my kids
to a war zone, why would I?

I mean...whatever I dreamed
of when I was younger,

they were just dreams and I grew up.

I would read stories about
mothers who lost their sons.

I knew that eventually my
children would be pressured

to become child
soldiers, to fight in Syria,

and I knew I can't handle that.

I will crack. I know I will crack.

But John wanted to go to Syria,
so I compromised on Turkey.

I really just thought we
were going to live in Istanbul,

but instead we ended
up going to Gaziantep.

I didn't even know
what Gaziantep was.

We spent the whole day
trying to find a place to stay.

The hotels were packed.
The prices has sky-rocketed.

On such short notice, we didn't
have the money to rent a house.

The only place we had
was this refugee hostel.

It's two a.m.

We're standing outside
with our luggage bags.

A bus came and it dropped
off some Syrians to the hostel

and John went over
to talk to the bus driver.

He came to me and he said
he knows a place for us to go.

It's only temporary.

So we got on the bus.

Had my babies with me. We covered
up at the back and we fell asleep.

As the sun started
to rise, I woke up

and then I saw, at the checkpoint,

"Welcome in Syria."

I was panicking.

I was having a breakdown
and making a scene and crying.

John said, "Be quite, woman." He
said, "What am I supposed to do?

We can't find anywhere to stay.

I swear it's just two weeks."

I was just, like, okay, it's only
temporary, it's only temporary.

It's only a few days.

Once we crossed the border,
John was questioned by

the militia that were
in charge of the town.

Ten minute conversation
of interrogating John.

Who are you? Who do you know?

And John said I know the Sheik.

Like call him up and the Sheik
says, yeah, take care of him,

take really good care
of Yayha and his family.

His life is not to be
put on the front lines,

he's way too
important to be fighting.

So they knew that
they could trust John.

The first place they took
us to was the villa in Azaz.

This villa used to belong to
a General that was attacked.

The windows were smashed,

and the water tank had been
shot so there was no water there.

It was creepy.

I felt like a ghost walking
in somebody's home.

We would go to the
rooftop of the villa

and you could see
the h--, entire city.

There was a hill where
the executions happened.

I didn't see any executions.

I was pregnant and I didn't
want to leave the house.

So I mainly stayed at home crying.

Yeah, there were
all different factions.

Always fighting for power
over the area of Azaz.

It would happen every day.

A siren would go off which
means we all have to hurry home

because there's
going to be a battle.

Stay inside, don't
go near the windows.

The kids and I got
very sick in Syria.

We didn't have running water.

We didn't have food.

We would just cook
whatever we could find.

We were all throwing up,
we all had urine infections.

The electricity would go out a lot.

I was six months' pregnant

and I was always dehydrated
from vomiting from being pregnant.

The guy who would drop water for us,

he would pick up
Michael on a motorcycle

and take Michael
to the military base.

It was supposed to be
teaching him religion,

they call it Aqidah, the creed.

The very first thing they thought
was necessary to teach children

is how evil music is,
which infuriated me.

And then John would be, like,

"Well at least he has something
to do during the day 'cause

what's he going to do,
watch you cry all day?"

I was desperate to get out.

Each day I was waiting
for news to get out.

By two weeks, I was, "John,
you said this is very temporary.

Let's go."

John said, "I know but the
people here want me to stay

and I can't say no.

I have IT skills,
I have my English skills.

I am an Islamic scholar and
most of the scholars have left.

They're asking me to
stay, I can't leave them."

I started begging him to
leave with me and he said no,

and then I got mad at him.

I told him to go --- off,

and then he told me to
go --- off and I was, like,

is this you saying that I
can leave without you?

And he said,
"Yeah, just get out of here."

âRCHATTERING IN LOCAL LANGUAGEÁ

I called John's Mom and I
said please help us get out.

Call the authorities, tell
them what John has done

and that I'm really scared that

my children are going to
be raised to be terrorists or

they're going to die.

The American authorities said they
can't come and rescue me in Syria,

they said that I would have to
make it out by myself to Turkey

and then, once I'm in Turkey,

they said I have to go to the UK

and then they will give me
a visa waiver for two weeks

and within those two weeks I have
to come to the US, and if I don't

come then then I'm not
allowed back in the country at all

because they needed
to get all their information

that I had while it
was fresh in my mind.

I accepted to collaborate
with the authorities.

How did you go from
one day living with John,

knowing what he's doing,

hearing about beheadings

to as long as I can get
back to the United States

- I'll just collaborate and I'll--
- It wasn't one day though.

It was years I was
telling him to collaborate.

So I, like, from 2009

I was saying John just
work for the FBI, you know?

But...because I didn't really
believe, you know? I just, like,

you know, I, I was already, like,

only involved because
there wasn't a way out.

I didn't want to
tear my family apart.

I didn't want to lose my husband,
and it wasn't because of love.

It was because I needed
a father for my children

and I couldn't imagine
life without...I, like,

my situation right now is not great
as a single mom. I...i--,

âRSIGHSÁ.

It's, like...it's terrible,
you know, so...

and I didn't want
it to be like this.

John wasn't surprised by my actions.

All he said was there's no
way I'm going to take you to

the Turkish airport
because you ratted on me,

and I'm pretty certain
that there's going to be

people there waiting
for me to arrest me.

I was, like, you're going to
let me and your kids travel

in a country that we don't
know in Turkey by ourselves,

and he was like yeah.

It was a hot September day.

We left at, like,
eight in the morning.

I just grabbed my babies,
grabbed the bags that we had.

I forgot bottled water.

John thought I had it,
I thought he had it

which was a really rookie mistake
because it was scorching hot.

We got into a van.

It took us four hours
to get to the border.

Every crossing was closed.

There were all these Syrian refugees

sitting in circles and
there's this wired fence.

We were told you just have to run.

There is a hole cut out in
this barbed wire, so we ran.

We're running to the fence

and then one at a time everybody's
going through this barbed wire.

I'm trying to get

my babies through the wire,

and a stroller, and our
bags and we're being shot at.

We see bullets hitting
the ground and flying.

Finally, me and the kids
made it through the barbed wire.

John came through.

On the other side, there
was a human trafficking truck.

John paid them $200. He said
take them to the bus station.

So we all pack onto this truck.

I saw John turnaround,
run back to the fence

and just crossed over the other
side to what he thought was freedom.

And I saw him run and not wave
or say goodbye or kiss us goodbye.

I was, like, you're actually happy.

And, if anything, that
was what broke my heart.

John's parents had
booked plane tickets for us

to travel from
Gaziantep to Istanbul.

We had a room booked
for us at the Raddison Hotel,

and we were sick.

We just all started
vomiting non-stop.

I was in so much pain.

I thought I was
having a miscarriage.

The hotel had to get an
ambulance and I had to go to the ER.

They had to put an IV

because they said I was
just dangerously dehydrated,

but my kids were in a
hotel room without me.

I called John's parents,
Tim and Martha,

and I was crying and Tim was crying,

and Tim saying what do
you want me to do? âRCRYINGÁ

I can't help you from here.

âRCRYINGÁ And I was, like,
all I want, you're a doctor,

just tell me I'm going to be
okay 'cause I was really scared.

You know, the pain was excruciating.

But we made it out.

When we returned to the US,

we were living with
John's parents in Texas.

âRBABY CRYINGÁ
âRINDISTINCT CHATTERINGÁ

I gave birth to Yani, my youngest.

âRBABY COOINGÁ

It was really hard for my kids
when they first came to America.

Michael was very worried
about us not being Muslim now.

We were under pressure, you know,

it was voluntarily but
also under pressure

by living with John's
parents now to not be Muslim.

I was already losing my religion,

but what they struggled
to understand is

that it's not something I
could just change overnight.

A day or two after I
was over the jet-lag and,

and then I stated speaking
and reporting to the authorities.

I disclosed everything I possibly
could remember, every detail.

Every single person I
met who was with John.

I was very willing to
participate and help because

I wanted to do
something to make up for,

for, you know, the past and,

and so there was never any,
like, I was never coerced. Not once.

And they always made it clear,
you know, you don't have to

but this--, you know, as long
as you understand it's voluntary,

and I said, "Yes, sure, absolutely."

Eventually, I started
working undercover.

It just came to, well, I need a job
and I don't have a college degree.

All I have is my knowledge
in extremism and this.

I would start taking to
jihadists and getting information,

passing it along to the authorities.

I would record conversations.

They were prompting me and
I would do what I was told, like,

they would say ask
him this, ask this way

and I would do the best I could.

It was in--, some acting on my
behalf but, âRSIGHSÁ, I did my job.

I owed this country and
that's the way I could help.

It was the only way I
really could help at the time.

John was reaching out to make
sure that me and the kids made it.

John wanted to see
the kids on the video,

and they wanted to
see him so I allowed it,

while recording what's in the
background and, you know,

getting as much
information as I could.

I was actually asking
him not to fight.

I was, like, please,
whatever you do, don't fight.

Promise me you're
not going to fight.

Was there ever a
moment where you were

fearful that you would
have criminal charges?

No.

Because I didn't have, I didn't
know, like...did I commit a crime?

I didn't join ISIS.

I didn't commit any violence.

I didn't decapitate anybody.
I wasn't policing anyone.

My crime was being an idiot
and getting married too young

and joining a really bad idea.

That was my mistake,
but it's not a crime.

For a lot of women who
traveled in support of ISIS,

what we often hear is well
I, I didn't engage in combat.

I didn't commit
any acts of violence.

What is important to remember
is that the ISIS enterprise

relied on all sorts of functions

and a lot of women
who joined were, in fact,

very strong enablers for fighters,

to then go out and
commit acts of violence.

In that period of 2013,

when the States
realized that individuals

were traveling to join ISIS,

it posed quite a dilemma

because it wasn't illegal
to go to Syria or Iraq

and that act in itself didn't really
come with criminal penalties.

So there's a real question,

not just in legal terms,
but moral and ethical terms

what constituted being part of ISIS?

What constituted permitting

the kind of brutality that they
exacted on their populations.

However, within a few years,

there was a big effort

the United States certainly
spear-headed this effort

to adopt laws that make it
illegal to travel to join ISIS.

At the time,

everybody was confused about
why would anyone go to Syria?

Why do people join ISIS?

Tania, she was conservative
before she ever met John

and she was conservative

in a, a milieu where it
wasn't demanded of her.

She chose to be that way,

and then, eventually, she
traded that for America.

John came from money.
He came from privilege.

He had everything, and
he traded it for nothing.

After the departure of his wife
and family, John suddenly was free.

Okay. âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ.

Right now I'm in Syria, and I've
been here for about four months.

I came here as I wanted to help.

I saw the situation was pretty bad

and I decided it was time
for me to take some action

rather than just speaking about it.

Pretty quickly, John picks up arms.

He fights.

He's badly wounded at one point.

John wrote to tell me he
got hit by a rocket launcher

and it sent shrapnel all
up his spine and I was, like,

you told me you wouldn't
fight and he was, like,

well, you know, first it's my duty.

Everybody has to do it, and I'm
just doing what my forefathers did.

John, from his perspective, was

following in the footsteps
of his grandfather

who fought in World War Two,

and his Dad, he was a
Colonel in the Air Force

and John was a Commander

and he told me he was proud of that.

He was picked up
eventually by enemies of ISIS.

He spent months in prison.

Eventually he got out.

At that point he realized that the
only place he would really be safe

would be in ISIS territory.

So he got on a truck and went to
the de facto capital of ISIS, Raqqa.

By the time John arrived in Raqqa,

ISIS had declared
itself as a Caliphate.

Muslim militants in
Iraq have declared

the complete of the Islamic State

with the new Caliphate under
their leader, Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi.

âRFOREIGN
DIALOGUEÁ

Baghdadi had graduated from being a

courier within the Islamic State
to being the leader of ISIS.

âRFOREIGN
DIALOGUEÁ

When Baghdadi stood up and said,

"I'm the Khalif"

he was claiming that he was the
leader of all Muslims in the world,

and everybody had to
give allegiance to him.

So, Ali, this new video we have from
ISIS, it's, it's a little unusual.

The creation of an
Islamic caliphate--

- Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi--
- Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi--

Terrorists group ISIS--

Today they announced a new name,

- the Islamic State.
- They say they want to be known

as a caliphate right now.

It was a huge propaganda success.

ISIS knew exactly
what they're doing.

There was not a television
station on the planet

that was not broadcasting in
detail what happened that day.

- Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi.
- The message was we are here,

we are staying. This is our
ruler, come join the Caliphate.

The initial analysis shows it is
indeed Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi b--

I remember being at
the kitchen sink and

hearing on Fox News that ISIS
actually declared a Caliphate.

The timing was, for me, shocking.

I just left Islam.
I stopped praying the day I left.

I threw off my hijab
and I was happy,

I was happy not to be a
Muslim but when that happened,

I thought, man God hates me
because, if there is an Allah,

and this is what I wanted for so
long, and I turned my back on that.

It was just shocking.

I didn't like it that John was going
to be able to say I told you so,

âRCHUCKLESÁ that di--, I didn't want
to hear that but it felt like it.

âRPEOPLE SHOUTING AND FIRING GUNSÁ

After the declaration of the
Caliphate, ISIS went into top gear.

When ISIS comes to town,

they come with a black banner
and they announce law and order.

They impose manners of
dress, strict observance of prayer.

There's a list of crimes that
often have corporal punishments

including execution, crucifixion.

Punishments that, for
most of the rest of the world,

including the vast majority of
Muslims, are deeply objectionable.

âRGUNS FIRINGÁ

They literally victimized entire
communities of so-called citizens.

For many people who lived
under ISIS's brutal regime,

it wasn't a choice of
whether you join ISIS or not.

You didn't really have a
choice of anywhere to go.

And it's worth pointing out
that more Muslims have died

from ISIS's actions than
any other community.

âRFOREIGN LANGUAGEÁ

We'll continue to strike
the necks of your people.

ISIS was creating videos
emphasizing, of course,

the violence but there were
other videos that were showing

how nice the Islamic state was.

How it was
a family-friendly place.

You can live not just a fully
Islamic life, but a happy one.

Something in their narrative
was very compelling.

There was an unprecedented outflow
of foreign fighters to go join ISIS,

20,000 is the number
we've estimated.

Either you are with us or
you are with the terrorists.

Of the couple of hundred or so
Americans who were part of ISIS,

John might have been
the most influential

as a propagandist and been
the one who rose highest

in the leadership
structures of ISIS itself.

In one of the Islamic State videos,
you can see John Georgelas.

âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ

and elevated them through
their obedience to him.

John was really
trying to show the world

that there was a whole civilization

where every aspect
would be fully Islamic.

You enjoin what is good and forbid
what is evil and believe in Allah.

John was writing on behalf of ISIS

in ISIS's main propaganda outlet,

Dabiq Magazine which published
upwards of a dozen issues.

He wrote an article titled Why We
Hate You and Why We Fight You.

This article said, in effect,

we exist because Islam
requires us to exist.

We do these things because
Islam requires us to do them.

Very few people actually
thought that ISIS had it right,

but those who did were
convinced somehow,

and it was people like
John who did the convincing.

But John Georgelas went dark,

not communicating as far as I
can tell with anybody outside ISIS.

At the end of 2016,

right around the time I
published an article about John.

The focus of Wood's book excerpt
in The Atlantic Magazine this month

is an ISIS member known
as Yayha The American.

We go to Tania Joya who is British.

Tania Joya, married one of
the most senior commanders

- of so-called Islamic State.
- Tania Joya,

she followed her husband,
an American jihadi,

to Egypt, Turkey and Syria.

Once Graeme Wood
published the article,

I started giving
interviews to journalists.

I felt like I owed the American
public an explanation.

Why should anyone believe you?

I mean that's your, your
journey is night and day.

I speak out in public because

I feel I have to make up
for the wrong that I did.

I'm a former extremist

and I understand

the minds of extremists.

Do you still love your ex-husband?

Everybody has a good side,
everybody has a bad side.

Yeah, you know what, I'm afraid

ISIS terrorists don't
have a good side

and so I'm afraid we're going
to end the interview right there.

Where is your ex-husband right now?

I don't know where he is or
what's happened to him since then.

Once I was talking to the media,

John stopped all contact with me.

The last email I got form John,

he wanted me to pass on this message
to the boys when they're older.

Could I have you read the letter?

I haven't read it in years.

Let me just read
it in my head first.

Sure.

Roll my eyes and cringe.

âRSIGHSÁ.

I have devoted my
life to seeking the truth.

I've spent countless hours
and many sleepless nights

researching through
thousands of books of old,

and I have experienced
more of this life than most men

who have lived to be grandfathers.

It's him bragging again.

I have found the
truth firstly in Islam,

and secondly in waging
jihad for Allah's cause.

I have never felt so much
honour and glory until I reached

the lands of the Islamic State and
became a mujihadeen in its ranks.

I love you all and I hope to
see you again in this life but

the true moment of ecstasy will
be when we are reunited in Jannah,

Insha'Allah.

Your father, Abu Hassan
Yayha âRUNSURE OF NAMEÁ.

âRLAUGHSÁ. Poor guy.

I never read it to them.

I am not going to give it to them.

That's...you know, he's
telling them to wage jihad.

Do you think John is alive?

I don't know.

I really don't know.

If John were to be captured,

do you think he should go to prison?

Oh yeah, I mean
but he needs a trial.

If he's captured,
and he goes to court,

and if I had to be a witness
I would do what I have to do.

As hard as it would be,
I would do it.

And it would be hard because?

It's awkward. I am, like,

being a witness against
somebody who claims to love me

and love my children,

and there aren't many
people in this world

who love me and my children
so it would be hard that way.

I do feel like he still lives
through me, just very hard.

So.. âRLAUGHSÁ. I don't want to cry.

Those ten years...he was my master,

and he was my best friend,

and the father of my
children, and my teacher.

I shared his legacy.

During the time when John went dark,

ISIS was being chased
out of their territory.

People of his stature
were being targeted

personally with drone strikes.

And then, in 2019,

ISIS in its main territory
was resoundingly defeated.

It could be the case that John
was obliterated in the drone strike.

It could be somehow
possible he survived

and that he's alive to this day.

You just don't know yet.

Tania, tell me where we are now.

We're here at my house in Texas.

We've been here for
seven-and-a-half years.

I think I'm pretty Americanized now.

I'm fully Americanized.

I can't believe it was
less than ten years ago,

because it feels like another life.

It feels like my past life.

Hey boys, which one of you
wants to go up and be the President?

- Me.
- I.

Which President do
you want to be like?

I want to be like George Washington.

Oh, did you know that
âRUNSURE OF WORDÁ

actually means Farmer
George in Arabic?

Corey, I just tagged you.

I raised my kids
with John's parents.

First it was hard for
me to share the children

and not control every aspect
of how I want them to be raised.

John's Dad, Tim, does
everything, like, financially.

He should be retired

but he still works as a
doctor to provide for the kids.

They've had to sacrifice
so much of their life

but Martha's, she's just
always overjoyed about it.

She's a living grandmother, and all
the grandchildren love their Yaya.

I like it that they're in
a loving environment.

That's so important.

I'd be in a homeless
shelter and my kids would be

in foster care without
Tim and Martha.

My kids have it good,
but it's not perfect.

They have a nice life.

Do your children ask
you now about their Dad?

They don't ask me a lot
about their Dad anymore.

Fast. You're too fast.

Go away, you can't come.

My younger two kids, when they play,

one plays the Dad,
one plays the son.

Oh no, Yayha's dead.

And they've always role-played.
What is it like to have a Dad.

I don't know how to,
to fill that void.

I don't think I can.

Michael is now 16,

and he goes through phases of

learning an ideology
and then adopting it,

then realizing its
flaws and moves on.

And he's always wanting to be
at the extreme end of everything.

17 is when John converted to Islam.

17, 18, that's when
I was radicalizing.

Michael does have a tendency
of finding these You Tubers

who are very radical thinking.

He's drawn to those voices.

When I came back to America,
I got bullied at school.

You know, being the outsider,

being like the kid who
everyone thought was a terrorist,

there were people who
would tell me how bad

I was because I was a Muslim.

I believe what is right and
what's wrong matters a lot.

My Dad,

he was always one who knew what was
right and who knew what was wrong.

He had a good soul within him.

In many ways, Michael
and I are very similar.

I'm totally that kind of person
where I am one extreme or the other,

and I make big mistakes.

At least now

I am not going to let other
people's mistakes be my mistake.

It's better to make my own mistakes.

I think I am just a radical person,

but I could never be a radical
slave to Allah ever again.

I'm sharing my story to
hopefully prevent other people

from being groomed into
cults and extreme ideologies.

If we don't understand the problem,
then it's hard to heal from.

What would you say
you're seeking now?

A normal life. âRLAUGHSÁ
I want a normal life.