All language subtitles for Wrong.Man.S01E04.Curtis.Flowers.Death.Again.720p.AMZN.WEBRip.DDP5.1.x264-NTb

On July 16th of 1996,

somebody goes into the
Tardy Furniture store

and leaves four bodies
on the floor.

Curtis became a
suspect almost right away.

There is a great deal
of circumstantial evidence

that points to Curtis Flowers.

The case was investigated
kind of sloppy,

like they were looking
for something

to point it towards Curtis.

You have conviction after
conviction after conviction

being overturned for
prosecutorial misconduct.

It is the same prosecutor

for 21 years!

Emotions in the community
are pretty high about this.

Okay, somebody gonna come here
and do something to you.

I ain't scared of nothing.

Why was Doyle so adamant
about telling everybody

that his gun had been stolen?

You positive
he wasn't at work?

He was not at work.

I think there's more evidence
against Doyle Simpson

than there was ever
against Curtis Flowers.

The longer I'm down here,

the more I think
Curtis is innocent.

This call may be
recorded or monitored.

I have to ask you
formally, Mr. Flowers,

did you commit
those four murders?

Did you have anything
to do with them?

Do you believe that,
if you had been born white,

you would have had
a different kind of justice?

Do you believe that, one day,

you will walk
out of prison,

a free and innocent man?

And is that a question
of faith in the Lord

or is it a question of faith

in the Mississippi
judicial system?

Do you have faith
in the judicial system here?

Curtis gone, taking classes,

since he been down there
in prison.

He about to preach.
He can just quote the bible.

Oh, okay, then, boy.
You're doing good. Mm-hmm.

You know, you can
be feeling down

when you go see him
and when he...

you... he get through
talking to you,

and so you feel just
good and light, too.

I say, "Shoot, so that's
talking to him."

He be up, you know,
making us feel better.

So, thank you, Jesus, for that.

Mm-hmm.

Curtis is in the
singing group with Archie.

So they... he usually
go sing every Sunday.

He... he said,
"Dad, I can't sing like you."

I said, "No, you can't
right now,

but you got the voice to sing."

So he tried it two
or three times

and he got where
I just told him, I said,

"Well, you get out front and you
do all the leading, mostly."

He could sing.

Take your time.
Yeah!

Hey, now!

Yeah!

Take your time!
Take your time!

- Yes.
- Yes, sir.

We just had fun,
singing gospel songs.

Oh, it was good.

I told him, not too long ago,
I said, "Boy, I miss you.

Ooh!"

- Yes, sir!
- All right now.

The warden, the... the guards,

they have him singing
in prison all day.

Just pray to God he get out
so he can

sing and worship God
like he want to and he...

other people can hear him.

When Curtis get out,

I want him to

come on back to the group
so we can sing.

That's what I want.

And I miss him, too.

- Father, we love you.
- Yes, we do.

-In Jesus's name we pray.
-Jesus's name.

-Amen.
-Amen.

-And amen.
-Amen!

- Amen. -Amen.

You know, I got a couple of
questions for the DA, you know.

Why is he still there?

Why is he so interested
in this case?

Well, it's
unusual to see a man

-be the district attorney
as long

-Yes.
-as Doug Evans has been.

-Oh, yeah.
-Yes.

Well, he should've
recused himself,

in my opinion.
It's time to hand

the ball off to the
next running back.

Let's see if he can get it
over the goal line,

-if that's your goal.
-Especially if you want

-to see justice.
-Yeah.

- Six trials.
- Yeah.

And it's still
not settled.

Yeah.

Let's see if we can get
ahold of Doug Evans.

Wayne Miller, he was
a field-level investigator

for the highway patrol,

Mississippi Bureau
of Investigation.

Miller just told me that
Evans wants to talk to us

and he said there's some
things that are not true

that have come out in some
talk in the community

and they both
really wanna talk.

But Evans was concerned
that they didn't wanna do

anything to jeopardize
the case,

in the event that they had
to go to trial again.

I guess we just need

to call Evans
and see what he says.

-Hello?
-Doug.

-Yes.
-My name is Charlie Saums.

I'm in Jackson, working
on the case of Curtis Flowers,

and I just wanted to see
if we might be able to talk

about this case after
the Supreme Court rules.

Uh, possibly.

At some point,
uh, I'd love to.

Ju-- I'd like to make sure
that it's far enough along

that it wasn't gonna
cause any problems.

I understand.

How many trials will this be,
the seventh trail?

-Right.
-If... if you have to do it.

You've gone through six trials
and this would be the seventh.

-Correct.
-And I would think that's

pretty much unprecedented
around the state of Mississippi.

Uh, it's not
the only one.

How long have you been

the district attorney up there?

Uh...

twenty...seven years.

Well, it's about time
to retire before long.

- Oh, no.
- Okay.

I understand.

I understand.

You got my phone number there

and we welcome the opportunity.

If you decide to change
your mind,

please let me know.

-Okay.
-All right, Doug.

Thank you so much for your time.

Being the district attorney,

uh, I respect the fact that
he's protective of his case

and his men
and his investigation.

But you heard, like I did,

he-he's willing to take it
to trial again.

It-It's been
my general experience

when people, you know,
want to talk to you...

-Right.
-they talk to you,

especially,
you know, prosecutors,

-Mm-hmm.
-Uh, and when they don't wanna

talk to you, uh, they come up
with reasons why they won't.

Even if he just wanted
to say, "Hey, look,

I'm very passionate
about this case.

I've spent my career
doing this

and that's why
I'm invested in it,"

that's not something
that c--

is gonna affect the
outcome of these appeals.

There are some
ethical prohibitions

-Yeah.
-on what he can say

-Yeah.
-publicly or outside

of the courtroom, uh,
-Right.

and it's doubtful he would run
afoul of those in any event.

-Yeah, just like a general
-But I-I...

-thing of why he's doing it,
-Right.

'cause that's all
I wanna know.

-O-On the other... yeah, yeah.
-He's beating himself up.

He's like banging his head
against the wall.

-Like stop already.
-Right.

As a lawyer,
I want him to stop.

You know, I was reading
in the bible last night.

I ran across a verse
I'd never seen.

The bible verse says,
"The Lord

made a few people perfect

and he gave the others hair."

I think about that
when I look at Charlie.

Curtis Flowers is an
absolutely fascinating story to read.

-Oh, yeah?
-Yeah.

I think it's unprecedented
to have a...

a case of four homicides,

six trials,

and we still don't have
a resolution of it

to this day,
21 years later.

It is unbelievable.

And you've got the same DA

-The whole time.
-today.

Yeah, same DA today.

-DAs are elected in Mississippi.
-Yeah.

To keep the DA's job,

he's making somebody
happy up there.

And I tell you, one of
the... one of the cases,

they had one guy that
held out in a mistrial.

He just wouldn't
change his mind.

I mean, he was... he was
dead set innocent, and they...

they charged him
with perjury.

Come on.

-A juror...
-They charged him with perjury

and said that he lied
at the first part

of the jury questioning.

They arrested him
right there

and then they never
pursued the case.

Needless to say, some
of those people up there

are intimidated
about talkin'.

It's mighty unusual that just
one member of the jury,

the one that held out, the one
that caused the mistrial,

all of a sudden,
at that stage of the trial,

is charged with perjury.

I really appreciate
a man like Mr. Bibbs,

that has the conviction
to stay with his feelings,

and I think he took
his job as a juror

very seriously.

Mr. Bibbs.

-Yeah, yeah.
-I'm Charlie Saums.

Can we visit
for a little while?

Oh, yeah, come on in.

Why did you say not guilty?

Well, I... I guess
because of the...

the evidence.

And we had a vote
when we first went back

to deliberate on the...
on the case, uh...

It was three voted not guilty.

-Three voted not guilty
-Right.

and the remaining
voted guilty.

Right.

At the end, it was just only me.

It's supposed to have been
a secret ballot, you know.

We write the... write down,
then put it in a...

into the hat, you know.
-Okay.

And, uh, when they got down
to one, it said, "Not guilty,"

and all the rest
of them was "Guilty."

And so, after that, he said,

"Well, I guess
we got a hung jury."

That's when he called me
down front.

-Who called you down front?
-The judge.

What happened
at that point?

Well, he said
that I said something

that was contradictory
to what I had said earlier.

What... what specifically
did he say?

Do you remember?

He says that, uh...

it was perjury, you know.

I never knew what exactly
he was talking about.

And he told me
I was under arrest

and he told the other man
to put the handcuffs on me

and take me to jail.

What was the final outcome
of the perjury charge?

It was dropped.
They just dropped it.

What kind of message
has that sent to...

to the... to the
community in general?

I'm quite sure that someone
would take it

under consideration before
they get on a jury, you know.

It's extremely unusual

to charge a juror
who sat on a trial,

um, with any crime associated
with that trial

and that, uh,
the prosecutor could not

come up with evidence of...

for which he had
charged the juror.

That's highly suspicious

when a prosecutor's
going to that extent.

It-It's one thing for the DA

to be prosecuting the defendant,
but when that DA

is in a position,
with the judge's approval,

-Right.
-to be prosecuting a juror,

uh, because he doesn't like
answers to questions,

that's, uh, something
I've never seen before.

It's a little medieval.

The prosecutor
also discriminated

in his jury selection.

In this case, the prosecutor
was removing

specifically African American
jurors for reasons for which

he allowed Caucasians
to stay on the jury for.

When we reviewed the case,
it was clear

what the prosecutor was doing
and the case was reversed again.

Black jurors
and white jurors

were being asked
the same questions,

giving the same answers,

but the Black jurors
were being stricken.

It's not appropriate
and the issue is...

is that he's almost using
that as a trial strategy.

Yeah, I know of only one
prosecutor who's ever been

tried and convicted
for prosecutorial misconduct.

In-In my experience, the worst
that happens to prosecutors

is they are admonished;

sometimes, uh, they will
lose their jobs.

But, usually, you don't even
get the convictionoverturned.

There really are no constraints
on what prosecutors do,

except the integrity
of... of the office itself.

I feel like in...
in this case,

Doug Evans is so married
to the result,

he is not paying
attention to the means

by which he's getting
his conviction

and that's always
very dangerous.

All right,
I just wanted to, uh,

give you, all y'all,
a good rundown.

You know, I just got back
from Mississippi.

Probably the best place to start
is with, uh, Frederick Veal.

That's the jailhouse-
snitch guy, right?

Yes, exactly.

One of the
jailhouse informants.

Right, one of the two testified
at the first trail

and...
didn't testify thereafter.

-That's correct.
-He lied.

-He... he--
-Lied on the witness stand,

under oath, as snitches
who are promised things do.

He did, he did.

He was pretty adamant
about the fact that, uh...

he had a lot
of discomfort now

and a lot of regret
with the fact that...

that he testified
to unfactual information.

I was young then and...

I was a locked up, too,
on a charge, and they, uh...

come to me with a offer
and I took it, so.

I was promised money.

I was promised a lot of things
that I didn't get, but...

it still wasn't right,
what I did.

You... you never knew
Curtis Flowers before?

Never seen him a day in my life.

I told the deputy,
"I need to talk to the sheriff"

and he tell me, he said,

"Well, I got something
I can help you get out with."

I said, "Okay, what is it?"
-Okay.

"We're gonna put you in the cell
with Curtis Flowers

and see can you get
a confession from him.

We're gonna let you go."

He says, "$30,000 reward,

but you gotta go to court
on Curtis Flowers."

It's a tactic we know
the state has tried before.

They had Frederick Veal
and Maurice Hawkins serve

as snitch-witnesses,

both of whom recanted
their testimony.

Can you remember
specifically

what they were asking
you to do, or...?

Uh, yes, they asked me
to say that Curtis Flowers

-told me he did it.
-Okay.

That's what they basically
told me to say.

So, I did it.

I did it. I did it.

And wrong judgment
and I was a young person...

thinking about the money
and thinking about

I'm fittin' to get
outta jail and...

And they let me go and I...

I went and testified
against him.

Everything was told,
what to say.

I had to say exactly how they
had that...transcripted.

Okay, and when you say
transcripted,

can you explain to me what
you mean by that, Frederick?

How did they...?
-Oh, transcript means

they got a piece of paper

and I had to memorize it
in the hotel, overnight.

-Okay.
-So I had to memorize it

and I memorized it pretty good.

I said, "Yeah, I'll testify,"

so that's basically
what happened.

That's a tactic the
state felt it needed.

It felt it needed a confession.

A confession is
direct evidence,

whether it's come from
a jailhouse snitch or not,

and so it was an important
part of the state's case.

Curtis had... he was...
he had retained counsel

at the time, correct?

Uh, yes, he did.

Which was clearly
a violation of his rights.

I mean, once the right
to counsel has attached,

the state is not permitted

to put informers
in with you,

is not permitted
to encourage informants,

-snitches...
-Because they use the informant

-as an agent, of theirs.
-Exactly.

There was also a
third jailhouse snitch,

a guy named Odell Hallmon,

whose sister Patricia
was a prosecution witness.

It is tough to rank

the dishonest characters
in this,

but Odell has gotta be
at the top.

Patricia Hallmon was a really
critical witness for the state

and she testified
that she saw Curtis

on the day of the murders,

walking in the
general direction

of Tardy Furniture,
wearing Fila shoes.

She's the only person,
of dozens of eyewitnesses,

who supposedly saw Curtis
at various places,

who puts Curtis in Fila shoes
on the day of the murder.

Odell testified that
his sister was a liar,

but, later, he claimed that
Curtis bribed him to say that.

In the third trial, Odell,

all of a sudden,
was testifying that Curtis

had confessed to him that he
committed these murders.

Why Curtis Flowers, a man who,

for 20 years,
has maintained his innocence,

who turned down plea agreements
that would have spared his life,

would confess
to a random stranger is, um...

pretty difficult to understand.

Odell Hallmon,

the witness who said
that Curtis confessed to him

and then he recanted
that testimony?

I thought,
"They're using this guy?"

It's hard to understand how

the prosecution could have

felt ethically okay
bringing a...

a snitch witness like this
back to the stand

when it was so clear
that he was unreliable.

Odell Hallmon was willing
to say just about anything.

Curtis is a victim probably
of the justice system,

but, we got four victims

and the families
of those four victims

that really need some closure.
They really wanna know

- the truth, you know?
- Oh, yeah.

And I don't think they'll...
they'll ever be satisfied,

until they actually know who...

Who did it.
- who the real killer is, yeah.

Couldn't sleep, thinking
about this case all night.

I understand that, after some of
these conversations we've had.

Absolutely.

Just from hearsay
and talk

with the people in the community
we talked to,

Doyle Simpson was a suspect.Wow.

Yeah, kind of did our own little
historical background on Doyle,

and Doyle
seemed like he was...

he was more of a suspect
than Curtis, you know?

He had a history
of violence.

We keep going back to that
timeframe, too, Charlie.

It just...
I mean, come on.

The... The people killed,
and then all of a sudden,

an hour later,
"Oh, my gun's stole"...

you know, "Mysteriously
stolen." Right.

We need some good
physical evidence.

We need to find that weapon.Yeah.

And that weapon's
still around somewhere.Yeah.

'Cause people don't get
rid of their weapons.

No. No.Those trophies, you know.

Yeah, that weapon, I think is...
is probably never left Winona.

I-I-I agree with you.

There was a .380 caliber pistol
found underneath a house

not far from
the Tardy Furniture store

in October of 2001,

but there's no
information in here

as to what happened
to the gun,

whether it was ever
tested in any shape,

form, or fashion,
or who has the gun.

Something we need
to find out about.

Annie Armstrong.

Annie Armstrong.

"My son Jeffery,"
no last name listed.

We might be better off
to talk to Jeffery.

Let's see if we can find
Jeffery.

Ms. Armstrong lived in a house

that was within
about a half a mile

of the crime scene.

And if we can't find
Ms. Armstrong,

I'd like to talk
to Jeff Armstrong

to find the circumstances
about this...

about this gun.

We were looking
for Annie Armstrong.

Does she not live here?

Annie Armstrong
does not live there.

How are you, sir?

I'm looking for a lady
named Annie Armstrong.

Help me with something.
Do you know Jeffery Armstrong?

The only person I know of
that might be that way,

and I'm not even sure
if that's true, is that house.

- How are you, sir?
- All right.

I'm looking
for Annie Armstrong.

She's my mother-in-law.

That's your mama-in-law?

Does she live with
Jeffery there?

Yes.

Hope you ain't ready
to put him back in jail.

Put who back in jail?Jeffery.

No, no, this has
nothing to do

with putting Jeffery
in jail.

How are you, sir?

My name is Charlie Saums.

Nice to meet you. Jeff Armstrong.
Jeff?

I'm down here
investigating this case

where Curtis Flowers
was involved in.

Yeah.

Tell me how you found
the gun.

Tell me what
the circumstances were.

Actually,
it was kind of crazy.

I had a dog that went
under the house

and brought the pistol out
and dropped it.

And I was like "This...
This just ain't right.

You just don't find a pistol
under the house." And...

What did you do
with the gun?

First thing I did was put it
out in my daddy's shed,

and then later on,
I had a good friend

that was a policeman
here in the city,

and I had ran into him
and told him what my dog found.

He said, "Well, we need
that, to take it to the chief."

So that's what
they did with it.

And who was... who was
the police officer

you talked to, your friend?Vince Small.

Vince who?
Small.

Good. And so what did they do
with the gun?

I didn't hear nothing.

Finally saw Johnny Hargrove

in town one day and asked him
what happened to it.

And he said, "Oh,
that wasn't the pistol.

I took it to the crime lab,
and they disposed of it."

That was the end of it.And they said that wasn't
the pistol.

How did they determine
it wasn't the pistol, I wonder?

You'd have to ask
Mr. Hargrove.

Do you have any idea
about the...

the whole process
of these trials?

Have you been following them
along the way?

Oh, yeah.
You want my honest opinion?

I... That's exactly
why I'm talking here.

I know Curtis.
I knew his family.

Nicest people you ever meet
in your life.

And I know Curtis has
some problems, but I just...

I don't believe there's no way
you gonna walk in a store

and shoot four people.
It's...

You shoot the first one,

why ain't
the other three running?

I tend to agree with you.

You said Curtis has
some problems.

What kind of problems
has he got?

I knew Curtis kind of dabbled
in drugs there for a while,

but, like I said, he was
always just as nice to me.

And I never heard nobody say
nothing bad about him or...

Good. I think you've been
very helpful.

I appreciate
your time today.

Mm-hmm.

We're on our way to, uh,
Vincent Small's home,

uh, to talk with him

about the gun that he recovered
from Jeffery Armstrong.

Uh, I think it's important
for Vincent to tell us

what he did with that gun.

Did he document, you know,
recovering that gun

and turning it over
to someone else?

Did he do a lab report
on that gun?

You know, did he place
that gun on evidence?

And... And could this gun
be the murder weapon?

Vincent, how you doing, sir?

You know, just... I want
to find out some stuff.

You know, I know
one cop to another.

And I think he was a little
reluctant at first

because, you know,
a little standoffish.

He wanted to know, you know,
who I was and everything else.

But he did exactly what
I thought a cop would do

and, you know, make sure
I was who I said I was.

But I think he was credible.

I think he was, um,
as forthcoming as he could be,

if Jeffery Armstrong gave him
anything.

You know, I think he knew
the procedures fairly well.

You know,
he would have documented it

if he had received a gun
from Jeffery Armstrong.

Does it really exist?

Did it ever really exist?

I really would like to talk
to, uh, Jeffery Armstrong

'cause I don't believe him
just based on what he...

the statement that he made.

We may not change it,

but we might could squeeze him
for some more information.

Ohh.

Hey, how you doing?

Fine.
How are you?

Would be surprised
if I told you

that we talked
to Vincent,

and Vincent said
that, uh,

you never gave him
a gun?

Really?
Yeah.

Would you be surprised
about that?

Yeah, I would.
Okay.

You and Vincent
are close.

And Vincent spoke
highly of you, too.

He spoke really highly
of you and said,

"Look, that's my friend,
but he never gave me a gun."

I gave Vince a gun.

If this is not true,
this would be the time right now

to tell us it's not true.Why would I lie to you?

I-I don't know.
I don't know.

I'm not... I don't think
you're lying to me,

I just want to know
right now.

That's why this--Because I got--

Wait a minute, listen to me.
We just want to know.

We want to know if somebody's
covering up anything

or if there's some kind
of police conspiracy

or something like that.

What we really, really...
and this...

this is nothing against you,
and, trust me, you're not

gonna be in trouble
or anything like that.

I don't have nothing
to lie about.

Mm-hmm.

That's the truth.Did you really find a gun?

That's the truth.Did you really find a gun?

Yes.
Okay.

Did your dog
really find that gun?

Yes.
Okay.

I know he's lying.

What is his motive
if it didn't happen?

If he's telling the truth,
then Vincent's lying,

and why is Vincent lying?

Unless him and the chief is in
on something together, too.

That's right.
And it's as...

as serious as this was,

they would have brought in
the cavalry to look at that gun.

And they would have sent
somebody to go re-interview him.

That's right. They'd have
been up under the house

to see what else
was under that house.

Abso--
There you go.

There you go.

They absolutely would.

But this town out here...
pshew...

remind me not to get
killed in Winona,

'cause they'll
never solve it.

You got a high-profile

murder investigation
going on down there.

You know, three, four,
five years later,

somebody come and hand you a gun
that's similar

to the gun that was used
in the high-profile,

what are you gonna do?

Run and place that
in evidence.

You are going to put it
in evidence,

you are gonna tell
everybody that would listen,

"Hey, I got
the murder weapon.

I... We think we got
the murder weapon."

You know, and they're
gonna secure it properly.

That would have hit
the news, everything.

I just don't believe it.

Yeah, he could have
been the hero of the department.

Definitely.
Yes. Yes.

And then Vincent Small
was so candid.

It just seemed like
he was being truthful

and this other guy was just
trying to get some attention.

Another thing that we have
are the so-called

word on the street theories

as to who did the killing
if Curtis Flowers didn't.

The furniture store that day,

Mr. Tardy was nowhere
in the store.

Anybody that goes in the store

knows that Mr. Tardy
is always in the store.

So that was...

that was kind of coincidence.

Normally, when you go down
to Tardy's store...

Mm-hmm....Mr. Tardy was always there.

Then, all of a sudden,
that day, he wasn't there.

He didn't show up that day.He didn't show up.

That's interesting.
That's very interesting.

People were saying
things like, "Wow, how...

how did Mr. Tardy
not be at the store?"

He was partially blind,
almost completely blind.

So she never went
anywhere without him.

So just what... what caused her
to leave him at home

on this specific day,
you know, so...

Tardy did not go
to the store that morning.Mm-hmm.

-Did he open up the store?
-Yeah.

He would be there
with her, with his wife.

And people were wondering,
"Well...

maybe Mr. Tardy
had something to do with this."

You know, all those kind
of questions came up.

People asked
all kind of questions

'cause it was very strange

that he wasn't
in the store that day.

A lot of people think Mr. Tardy
had something to do with it.

People say him and Miss Bertha
was having trouble.

That's...
I-I don't really know.

I can't say 100 percent
that's true.

You think it was money?

Somebody got paid to do it.

Why?
You think it was a hit?

A murder-for-hire?
Yeah.

Why is Mr. Tardy not
at that store that morning?

Absolutely.
He's there every morning.

He's always,
religiously always there.

Bertha Tardy wheels him in
in a wheelchair

pretty much like clockwork.

So why,
out of all the mornings,

is he not there?

And Mr. Tardy
was the mastermind

in his wheelchair
behind the whole thing.

Well, he wasn't there
that morning.

And there was also...And that's a change.

Yes.
Several allegations

of somebody working there
was involved in drugs.

They were, you know,
selling drugs out of there.

Who is saying these things?

This is why I like it
even though you hate it.

Is because how does the biggest
business in that tiny town

go from being a...

a run-of-the-mill
furniture store

to a multiple homicide
reasonably--

To a drug and murder den!

No, no, not even that.

It's just that's an easy thing
to jump on are drugs.

It's better than Curtis
just woke up one morning

and was like,
"You know what?"

All we're saying is
there's other things

that should have
been investigated.

-Yes.
-Agreed.

And not just ignored.

Agreed.You know?

The issue to me is

the only way we find evidence
to free Curtis

or bury him

is luck and persistence.Okay.

We have to follow up
on these leads.

Okay, I agree.

Morning.

Gentlemen, gentlemen.

Well...

Can I get you all
some more coffee?

Decaf for me,
please, ma'am.

All right.

Rob, one of the things
I really need you to do...

Well, let's just see the history
of this gentleman Tom Tardy.

Supposedly and what
everybody says is

Mr. Tardy was not
at the store that day,

and he was home sick,
but yet...

What did...
what did he testify to?

We may... He's not
testified anything.

Is Mr. Tardy still alive?

No. Mr. Tardy's
passed away.

Mr. Tardy's gone.

And I hope to talk

to Mr. Tardy's son,
Tom Tardy,

and... and see if we can,
uh, catch up with him.

I'm still convinced
that most of this,

this police investigation,

has been an opportunity
to get Curtis

and not really
find out the truth.

They seemed to have
zeroed in on him,

and I would hate to think
that he's innocent,

if, in fact, he is,

and there's somebody
running around now...

or maybe deceased now...
that bears the burden for this.

Well, if he's innocent,
he's living in Hell on earth

and somebody else
ought to have to pay for it

if he didn't do it.

Going to see Tom Tardy,

who is the son of Mr. Tardy,

who owned the...
owned the furniture store,

and the stepson of Mrs. Tardy,

who passed away in the murders.

Tom, how are you, sir?

-Tom Tardy?
-Tom Tardy. Nice to meet you.

-Tom? Good seeing you.
-Hi, Charlie. How are you?

-Nice to see you.
-Good to see you, sir.

He really is, uh...

set on Curtis Flowers.

And... And I find that unusual.

Somebody in his family

had relayed to him that...

they were scared of Curtis,

that Curtis had created
some type of problem,

and he was somebody
to be careful around.

And there was
a little fear of Curtis.

And that's the first time
I've... I've heard that.

Seemed pretty satisfied with
the work of the investigators.

Seems to be satisfied
with the fact

that Curtis Flowers is the guy,
the guy's in the penitentiary.

I mean, look, there are some
things that may be admissible

at a new trial
for Curtis Flowers.

So, let's talk about
the burglary,

'cause at least
we know that happened.

This isn't the first time
crime has struck this business.

Monday, it was discovered
someone broke

into the business
through the roof.

But why is a mystery.
It appears nothing was taken.

A week before this murder,
that store is burglarized.

And they access the building
through a skylight.

After the break-in,
a key from the store

is used for the perpetrator
to leave the store.

So, I mean, think about that.

All right, h-how do you
find that key?

You gotta have some familiarity.

I mean, Ira and I have
been in that store.

Yes. Yes.

I mean, you don't just go
searching around for a key.

What was taken
in the burglary?

-It was never determined.
-Never determined.

And the person
let themself out, right?

- They did target
the safe in the store. - Yes.

Fingerprints, suspects...

what was the investigation
of the burglary,

especially prior to the murders?

Police, for reasons
we don't understand,

decided that these were
unrelated incidents.

Um, we don't know why,

we don't know what led them
to believe that,

like many things in this case.

We looked at every file
that we could on it, and...

and there just wasn't
anything there.

And so that was one where
a shoddy investigation

may have destroyed

what was really
significant evidence.

Uh, what may get him
a new trial...

Alabama outlaws.

So around the same period
of time in Alabama,

a crime group went on
a robbery/murder spree.

June 30, 1996,

July 25, 1996,

there was a whole string of them

similar to the one in Winona.

Robberies and murders.

These men in Alabama who had
committed eerily similar crimes,

you know, broad daylight
robbery/murders,

single gunshot
to the head,

um, using a .380 gun,

and one, a .380 gun that had
a tendency to jam

the same way that the gun used
in the Tardy murders did.

So we came upon the names

Marcus Presley
and LaSamuel Gamble,

who were the two
primary perpetrators

in this string
of Alabama crimes.

LaSamuel Gamble testified
in his trial

that he was wearing Fila shoes

while they were
committing these murders.

It had nothing to do
with the crimes,

or it just happened to come up.

One of the members,
Marcus Presley,

he gave an affidavit that he
said LaSamuel Gamble did admit

that he did a couple of licks

in Mississippi
around that time.

Licks indicate, you know,
robberies or what have you.

So that could have been the time
that this murder was conducted.

Now, there was news
coverage, you know,

because this was
a big deal.

They had heard about it
even in Winona,

but it was excluded
from, uh, Flowers' trial.

-Hmm.
-And the jury...

Didn't hear evidence
about Alabama outlaws.

The jury never found
out anything

about the Alabama outlaws,

and that's one
of the points of error,

uh, that currently pending
right now in post-conviction,

that this should have been
allowed in at his trial,

and, indeed, it should
have been let in.

And I spoke with one of
the law enforcement officers

who had been involved
in that arrest

and who had actually
interrogated Presley and Gamble

when they were arrested.

He had received a call
from someone in Mississippi

named Lieutenant Wayne Miller,

asking for a photograph
of Marcus Presley.

And that Wayne Miller had said,

"When you interrogate
these guys,

I want you to ask them about

this Tardy Furniture crime."

Marcus Presley's photograph
was used in the photo lineups

shown to Porky Collins,

who was one of the witnesses
in the Curtis Flowers case.

And none of that information

was ever turned over
to the defense.

And, you know, repeatedly,
we were told,

"No, there were
no other suspects.

Curtis Flowers
was the only suspect,"

which we now know is...
is a lie.

The jury should have at least
heard about alternate suspects

just one state away.

Right, with... with this
very distinctive...

Fila sneakers...
okay, there's a lot of them.

.380s...
there's a lot of them.

.380s that jam?
You know, not so much.

But you have a .380 that jams
with Fila sneakers.

I mean,
it's... it's not quite

a fingerprint copy
of... of the robbery/murder,

but it's...
it's enough that...

that a jury should have
been able to hear about it.

It's a very shiny coincidence.

It creates some
reasonable doubt, too.

-Yep.
-Right.

You know, we don't need to show

as the defense
that somebody else did this.

We don't need to prove

that Presley and Gamble
committed this crime

or that anybody else
committed this crime.

But we had filed a brief,
you know, a 200-page brief

laying out all
of this new evidence

that was discovered
in an investigation.

None of that evidence has ever
been considered by a court.

All of the evidence
that we uncovered

through our investigation
is out in the record,

it's public,

and if he loses
on direct appeal,

then we'll be back
in the post-conviction phase.

I don't think this is
an out-of-town perpetrator.

Crime is geographic,

as much as we don't want to
accept that a lot

in law enforce--
It always comes back.

And think of this...
9 out of 10 times,

the victim and the suspect
know each other.

So nothing would surprise me
on this thing,

but I think it is geographic,

I think it's right here
in Winona.

And that's just
my thoughts on it.

I could be dead wrong.

Speaking of people
who raise more questions

than provide us with answers,
you spoke to Hazel Jones.

Oh, yes.

Who almost took

a death-bed confession.

Almost.

Hey, ladies.
Hello.

Hazel Jones...

Doyle Simpson
was her stepbrother.

Uh, Emmitt Simpson
was her stepbrother.

Evidently, Emmitt had maybe
reached out to you,

Doyle's brother,
and had said something to you.

Could you share
that story with me?

I was at the hospital,
visiting him.

-Okay.
-He was sick.

-He was real sick.
-Okay.

She said that at some point,
um, when... and...

and she described it
as six months,

all the way out
to six months when Emmitt

is in declining health,

all right, fighting cancer.

They're gathered
around there,

and the comment
is made by Emmitt...

And he just said,
"Well, you know, I wish

Doyle had a-said
something, you know."

And he know he d--
he lied, you know.

And that was the only
thing that he said.

Do you know
what brought up the...

-No, the conversation?
-Yeah.

-Right, no.
-Or did he just bring it up?

He just...
he brought it up, uh-huh.

He just said it.

What were you talking about
before that?

I'm just curious.
I mean...

I don't know, probably just,
I was just talking to him

and his wife,
you know, because, like I say,

-you know, they were sick.
-Mm-hmm.

And so we were just...
just laughing and talking.

Right.

You know, he didn't
get a chance to,

you know, share it,

you know, whatever it was
that he had to say, you know,

and I just think that
both of them passed away

without the truth being known,
whatever it was,

you know,
whatever the truth was.

Do you have an opinion on
what that truth might have been?

It had to be, you know,

I'm thinking it could have
been Emmitt and Doyle.

I'm not sure.
I don't know.

Or it could have been
somebody else.

I...
I really don't know.

Well, for Emmitt to make
the statement about,

you know,
Doyle shouldn't have...

And I don't know what he was
talking about

when he said he lied
or... or whatever.

About whether or not
it was about the gun

that was in the car
or whatever.

-I... I don't know.
-Right.

And then that was never
followed up on.

You know, and then... and then
he subsequently expires.

So Emmitt says...

"I wish Doyle had
told the truth."

Right. "Doyle needs
to tell the truth."

That's correct.

Well,
did anybody ask, like,

"Tell the truth about what?"
Or, "What is the truth, Emmitt?"

That was... that was
my next question.

-Doing good, right.
-I mean, it does seem like...

I mean, again, I...
it does seem like a...

if this happened, a reasonable
follow-up question,

"What is the truth, Emmitt?"

Did anybody ask
that question?

-Exactly.
-No.

And, "How do you know
the truth, Emmitt?"

-Yeah.
-Those kind of things.

Yeah, that's...
that's the, you know,

unfortunately,
from there, you know,

then he expires
a few months later, and...

And does she ever provide the
police with that information,

-that he had said that?
-No.

See, that's...
that's a problem, too.

-No, she did not.
-Right.

And this is just
my personal opinion.

I think...
I think Doyle Simpson's

a whole lot more
involved in this case.

Mm-hmm, yeah.

To me, Doyle Simpson's
a linchpin, 'cause it's his gun.

If Doyle Simpson
went in and did this,

that would not shock me at all.

Having previously
worked there, maybe...

Curtis told him,
"Hey, they're on my butt.

They held my check."

Now, this is all hypothetical.

But if you think, "Hey,
you're picking on my cousin

who can't defend himself,
he's quiet-natured,"

and then something
goes bad, all right,

and then the other people
are in there and see it,

and then he has
to get rid of them.

That would... that, to me, is...

if you just look at it
for what it is,

that would be a very
plausible scenario.

So then Emmitt is aware of all
this, and, "Hey, I wish...

I wish Doyle would have just
told it like it was."

But somewhere in that little
triangle is the truth,

in my opinion.

You know, I came into this case
thinking that he was guilty,

um, but I'm leaving
thinking that, uh, he's not.

Where this case really points
as a suspect is to Doyle.

Yeah, oh, I-I don't
disagree with you. Doyle is all over this.

Doyle's gun, Doyle...
Doyle comes from a...

another town where they
even tried to execute him.

Doyle totes guns around.
Doyle's a bad guy.

Doyle's car.

But here to our...
to your point, and I agree...

Should they have
zeroed in on Doyle? Yes.

But Curtis is complicit.

He knows exactly
what went down that...

at that morning.

I think he's involved
in the incident.

Um, however,

if I was a jury
sitting in Winona, Mississippi,

I don't know that I could
have found him guilty

based on the evidence
that I've seen.

Because it is truly
and purely circumstantial.

I think we call can agree
on one thing.

There's too much reasonable
doubt in this whole case.

We can point our fingers
at Curtis.

We can point
our fingers at Doyle.

But the most significant
thing about this case

is there's too much
reasonable doubt.

You know, how do you
put somebody on death row

with
a circumstantial case?

You know, and convict them
with a circumstantial case?

And everything
doesn't point to him.

Early morning, huh?

Yeah, it is.
Beautiful out here, isn't it?

-I love it, man.
-What a day.

I would love to move south,
retire down here, and...

live the rest
of my life.

Good morning.
-Good morning. Hi.

-How are you?
-Hello.

All right.

So,
how you guys holding up?

Oh,
we hanging in there.

That's all you can do,
right?

-Got that right.
-I know, that's all you can do.

-Yeah.
-How's he holding up?

He... Curtis, he...
he...

pretty good.
-He's pretty good?

-Mm-hmm.
-Okay. That's good.

And, yeah, you know,
he really believe

they gonna find out the truth
and he gonna get out.

Oh,
he planning what he gonna do

and how he gonna
cook this and that.

And that's good. You know, he's not
letting it get him down.

Yeah, so, you know,
I think God gonna...

he bring him...
he bring him home.

-Absolutely.
-I just really believe it.

Yep,
that what Curtis told me.

He said, "Mama, you know,
I feel like God's

sitting here on the bed,
talking to me sometime."

Well, you know,
God does talk to us.

-You know that, Miss Flowers.
-Mm-hmm, I know, mm-hmm.

-In different ways.
-That's true.

But keeping your faith,
that's good.

Want to
tell you guys this, um,

'cause I been working homicides
for over 30-something years,

and, uh...

I see a lot of reasonable doubt
in this case.

You know, we... we both have
read this file up and down

and back and forth, and...

and I've looked at
a lot of stuff.

And I see a lot
of reasonable doubt.

I see a lot of other people that
could have been suspects as well.

-Right.
-You know.

And, uh, I just want
to let you know,

we're gonna do everything we can
to try to help clear his name,

because, you know,
I got charged with murder in...

-back in 1993 as an officer.
-Mm-hmm.

So I know how it feels to sit
at the defense table

and somebody accuse you of
something that you didn't do.

Well,
we really appreciate it.

You know, I stay up at night,
I don't even know Curtis,

but I tell you after
I started reading his file,

I stay up at night.Yeah.

When you do what we do
for a living,

you have to find
the truth, you know?

-Mm-hmm.
-Truth is the truth.

Truth will truly
set you free.

Yeah. And that's what
we're after here,

is to see if we can
come up with the truth.

-Mm-hmm.
-I told him that he...

he's a humble man, he's... we
all hear he's a great singer.

He said,
"Well, I don't know."

Anytime somebody downplays
what they can do,

-you know they're pretty good.
-Yeah.

Well, I try to anyway.

-Yeah?
-What's your favorite hymn?

Oh, "Amazing Grace"
is my favorite hymn.

Oh, how about
hitting us a verse?

-Amen.
-That's fantastic.

-Yeah.
-I love that.

God bless you.

Curtis Flowers has spent
almost his entire adult life

as a defendant full-time.

This has gone on for decades.

Thank you so very much.
Very nice meeting you.

-Thank you.
-Very nice meeting you.

-Bye. Thank you. Mm-hmm.
-Okay.

The bottom line for me
is he should not be on death row

based on the amount of

prosecutorial misconduct
that went on.

To me, what Flowers needs
is a clean trial,

without Evans,

and a jury that's not
in Winona.

He should be out.
Free Curtis.

Mississippi Supreme Court needs
to overturn this conviction

and put an end
to the prosecution.

Say, "You know what,
six trials is enough,"

and simply not permit
yet another trial.

And if they're nt
gonna do tha,

if they're actually gonna
reverse the conviction

and allow another trial,

then Curtis Flowers needs
to be released on bail,

and then all of these
things can happen,

investigations can...
can move forward.

But the guy's already paid
with substantial liberty,

uh, for the... the mistakes and
misconduct of the prosecution.

And this guy, his feet
need to touch grass,

and he needs to breathe
some free air.