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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:11,978 --> 00:00:14,481 Hello, this is a collect call from an 2 00:00:14,482 --> 00:00:17,884 inmate from the Banner County Jail. 3 00:00:17,885 --> 00:00:18,785 Hello? 4 00:00:18,786 --> 00:00:20,253 How you doing? 5 00:00:20,254 --> 00:00:21,121 All right, sweetheart. 6 00:00:21,122 --> 00:00:22,922 How are you? 7 00:00:22,923 --> 00:00:23,990 Not so good. 8 00:00:23,991 --> 00:00:25,325 I know, baby. 9 00:00:25,326 --> 00:00:26,793 I have to come home. 10 00:00:26,794 --> 00:00:28,762 I have to come home. 11 00:00:28,763 --> 00:00:33,266 Baby, I know that. I'm sorry; 12 00:00:33,267 --> 00:00:35,268 you're going to have to stay strong. 13 00:00:35,269 --> 00:00:36,970 Are you saying your prayers? 14 00:00:36,971 --> 00:00:38,204 Yeah. But, Mom, 15 00:00:38,205 --> 00:00:40,040 I want to come home. 16 00:00:40,041 --> 00:00:43,410 Baby, I promise you that we're 17 00:00:43,411 --> 00:00:46,112 working on that, okay? I promise you. 18 00:00:46,113 --> 00:00:47,247 When can I come home? 19 00:00:47,248 --> 00:00:49,249 Huh? 20 00:00:49,250 --> 00:00:51,951 When can I come home? 21 00:00:51,952 --> 00:00:54,788 - Sweetheart. - Can you try? 22 00:00:54,789 --> 00:00:56,423 Honey, we're trying everything we can, 23 00:00:56,424 --> 00:00:59,492 I promise you. We're trying everything we can. 24 00:00:59,493 --> 00:01:01,294 There's nothing more in the world than I want my 25 00:01:01,295 --> 00:01:08,201 boy home with me. Okay? We're doing everything we can here. 26 00:01:08,202 --> 00:01:10,570 You know how much I love you, baby? 27 00:01:10,571 --> 00:01:12,138 The prosecutors are trying to get me 28 00:01:12,139 --> 00:01:15,275 life with no parole. 29 00:01:15,276 --> 00:01:17,309 Huh? 30 00:01:33,860 --> 00:01:36,229 Should minors who commit murder be sentenced to 31 00:01:36,230 --> 00:01:37,564 life without parole? This is a crucial question the 32 00:01:37,565 --> 00:01:39,399 Supreme Court is going to be deciding tomorrow, 33 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:41,468 that 38 states currently allow life 34 00:01:41,469 --> 00:01:44,971 without parole for minors who commit murder, 35 00:01:44,972 --> 00:01:46,406 but is it constitutional? 36 00:01:46,407 --> 00:01:48,374 So the court comes to a fork in the road. 37 00:01:48,375 --> 00:01:51,878 Make a complete ban on life without parole for adolescents 38 00:01:51,879 --> 00:01:54,848 or set an age limit? Many lives hang in the balance. 39 00:01:54,849 --> 00:01:57,083 Their brains are not fully developed, 40 00:01:57,084 --> 00:02:00,286 they will change, they will grow. Is this something that we 41 00:02:00,287 --> 00:02:02,522 can judge them for for the rest of their lives? 42 00:02:02,523 --> 00:02:04,991 After Bar was questioned by police, 43 00:02:04,992 --> 00:02:07,293 he was charged with the 12-year-old's murder. 44 00:02:07,294 --> 00:02:10,463 Anyone who knows to muffle the gun 45 00:02:10,464 --> 00:02:15,135 so nobody else hears it has the mind of an 18-year-old. 46 00:02:15,136 --> 00:02:17,437 I think everyone is more than the worst 47 00:02:17,438 --> 00:02:20,640 thing they've ever done and I think that policy 48 00:02:20,641 --> 00:02:22,876 makers can make decisions about how to punish them. 49 00:02:22,877 --> 00:02:25,478 But I think children are uniquely more 50 00:02:25,479 --> 00:02:28,481 than their worst act, they have quintessential qualities 51 00:02:28,482 --> 00:02:31,117 and characteristics that a decent society, maturing 52 00:02:31,118 --> 00:02:34,921 society, an evolved society we believe is 53 00:02:34,922 --> 00:02:39,224 constitutionally obligated to recognize and protect. 54 00:03:04,384 --> 00:03:07,687 High school is a very hard time. 55 00:03:07,688 --> 00:03:12,492 I had no idea who I was. I had no idea where I fit in 56 00:03:12,493 --> 00:03:18,231 among my peers, and I thought that I was a nobody at my high 57 00:03:18,232 --> 00:03:25,672 school and I wanted to be known. And so I tried all 58 00:03:25,673 --> 00:03:31,644 these different identities and I couldn't, you know, find an 59 00:03:31,645 --> 00:03:37,483 identity that I could not be pushed out of, I guess. 60 00:03:37,484 --> 00:03:39,953 So I got into Columbine. 61 00:03:39,954 --> 00:03:42,355 We saw these two kids, they were 62 00:03:42,356 --> 00:03:45,725 white and they had dark hair. 63 00:03:45,726 --> 00:03:49,329 upwards of a dozen people were injured and running out of... 64 00:03:49,330 --> 00:03:54,067 Columbine kind of created a subculture for 65 00:03:54,068 --> 00:04:01,273 disenfranchised kids who don't fit in anywhere. 66 00:04:03,276 --> 00:04:08,014 I saw, at the time, they transcended their high 67 00:04:08,015 --> 00:04:12,619 school, for the hour that they did what they did, they were in 68 00:04:12,620 --> 00:04:16,556 the spotlight and that's what I wanted. 69 00:04:16,557 --> 00:04:19,624 I wanted to be in the spotlight. 70 00:04:26,065 --> 00:04:27,667 Actually I was really happy to do it. 71 00:04:27,668 --> 00:04:32,138 Oh yeah? 72 00:04:32,139 --> 00:04:33,439 Hey, look, it's Cassie. 73 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:35,275 Hey, look, I don't know her. 74 00:04:35,276 --> 00:04:41,180 Hello, Cassie. I'm getting you on tape, okay? 75 00:04:41,181 --> 00:04:42,582 Say hi, please. 76 00:04:42,583 --> 00:04:43,283 Hi. 77 00:04:43,284 --> 00:04:44,550 Okay, see you. 78 00:04:44,551 --> 00:04:48,354 When I first met Cassie Stoddart, I think that the first 79 00:04:48,355 --> 00:04:52,525 memory I have of her is we were joking around 80 00:04:52,526 --> 00:04:57,530 in class and she was smiling and that's vivid, the 81 00:04:57,531 --> 00:05:02,068 image I have in my mind now, is I can't get it out of my mind. 82 00:05:02,069 --> 00:05:08,673 And, oh, man, it's hard to talk about... 83 00:05:12,412 --> 00:05:15,348 but, in the beginning 84 00:05:15,349 --> 00:05:18,651 she was just a nice person and she... 85 00:05:18,652 --> 00:05:23,421 you know... sorry. 86 00:05:29,128 --> 00:05:32,165 I was attracted to her. I thought she was a special 87 00:05:32,166 --> 00:05:35,768 person but she started going out with this 88 00:05:35,769 --> 00:05:38,604 other kid I knew in high school, and it kind of 89 00:05:38,605 --> 00:05:44,310 struck me hard and I was like, "Okay, so, I am a loser." 90 00:05:44,311 --> 00:05:50,516 Wait, have you seen Torey? He's supposed to meet me here at 7:30 91 00:05:50,517 --> 00:05:55,320 and it's 8:19. He's an hour late. 92 00:05:56,689 --> 00:06:00,759 You don't even care, do you? Okay. 93 00:06:02,762 --> 00:06:07,632 I met Torey Adamcik in sophomore year. 94 00:06:08,701 --> 00:06:13,873 He started talking about the movie "Scream," how it would be 95 00:06:13,874 --> 00:06:19,779 cool to actually do a "Scream" type crime. 96 00:06:19,780 --> 00:06:22,115 And I was like, "Okay." He's like, "Have you ever 97 00:06:22,116 --> 00:06:27,653 thought about that? " " Not really. I've thought about other 98 00:06:27,654 --> 00:06:33,292 things like Columbine." And he really was into that and I was 99 00:06:33,293 --> 00:06:38,865 like, "Well I could either be alone or I could join his 100 00:06:38,866 --> 00:06:45,937 plan and be with him and not be alone." 101 00:07:10,396 --> 00:07:12,298 Torey got there; there was about eight 102 00:07:12,299 --> 00:07:16,803 months where we would come up every three weeks. And we'd 103 00:07:16,804 --> 00:07:20,673 leave right after work on Friday, drive up all night, come 104 00:07:20,674 --> 00:07:23,476 stay in the hotel. We wouldn't miss a visit or 105 00:07:23,477 --> 00:07:26,512 anything. Torey is a good kid and we enjoy 106 00:07:26,513 --> 00:07:29,816 the visits, we have a good time and Torey is the 107 00:07:29,817 --> 00:07:33,219 same person he was before he went in. 108 00:07:33,220 --> 00:07:35,321 My mom still treats me like a mom and 109 00:07:35,322 --> 00:07:38,858 she tells me to brush my teeth as she is leaving 110 00:07:38,859 --> 00:07:45,331 and exiting and tells me to go to bed early or whatever, 111 00:07:45,332 --> 00:07:47,900 just the typical stuff but, I don't know, I think they're 112 00:07:47,901 --> 00:07:49,902 just worried about me. 113 00:07:49,903 --> 00:07:50,937 Just really good kid. 114 00:07:50,938 --> 00:07:53,639 Torey is a good kid and Torey is just a 115 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,510 kind, kind, kind person and we're still family. 116 00:07:57,511 --> 00:08:00,913 He's still every bit as much a part of our family as before. 117 00:08:00,914 --> 00:08:06,252 I remember the first article I read about my case. 118 00:08:06,253 --> 00:08:07,620 Jeez, they made me sound 119 00:08:07,621 --> 00:08:10,857 like this brutal, cold, psychopathic killer. 120 00:08:10,858 --> 00:08:12,792 They were talking about Brian. 121 00:08:12,793 --> 00:08:14,560 They were making you just like Brian. 122 00:08:14,561 --> 00:08:16,996 They put us like as the same person. 123 00:08:16,997 --> 00:08:18,664 They lumped them together. 124 00:08:18,665 --> 00:08:21,334 I only hung out with him for six weeks before this 125 00:08:21,335 --> 00:08:24,937 happened. I think it's crazy how... 126 00:08:24,938 --> 00:08:29,342 the last week of me being on the 127 00:08:29,343 --> 00:08:35,448 street and being free really has affected the rest of my life. 128 00:08:35,449 --> 00:08:38,417 If you were to watch that video and nothing had happened, 129 00:08:38,418 --> 00:08:41,586 it would literally be a joke. 130 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,816 I don't know if it was my... it was probably my fault; 131 00:09:10,817 --> 00:09:16,522 I should have seen it but I just... he did 132 00:09:16,523 --> 00:09:20,760 not seem capable of something like this, and it 133 00:09:20,761 --> 00:09:27,400 completely caught me off guard. I was just in... I don't know; 134 00:09:27,401 --> 00:09:30,903 I just couldn't believe it. 135 00:09:30,904 --> 00:09:34,473 There should be no law against killing people. I know it's a 136 00:09:34,474 --> 00:09:38,544 wrong thing but... Hell. 137 00:09:38,545 --> 00:09:41,814 You restrict somebody from it, they're going to want it more. 138 00:09:41,815 --> 00:09:46,519 We found our victim and, sad as it may be, she's our friend. 139 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,456 But you know what? We all have to make sacrifices. 140 00:09:50,457 --> 00:09:52,825 Our first victim is going to be Cassie Stoddart. 141 00:09:52,826 --> 00:09:56,329 She's going to be alone in a big, dark house out 142 00:09:56,330 --> 00:10:00,933 in the middle of nowhere. How perfect can you get? 143 00:10:00,934 --> 00:10:02,401 Holy shit, dude. 144 00:10:02,402 --> 00:10:05,061 - I'm horny just thinking about it. - Hell yeah. 145 00:10:05,087 --> 00:10:07,773 I don't know if either of us would have 146 00:10:07,774 --> 00:10:14,814 done it if we were alone. We fed off each other, I guess, 147 00:10:14,815 --> 00:10:19,485 and it was a formula for disaster in the end. 148 00:10:19,486 --> 00:10:26,559 The time is 9:50, September 22nd, 2006. 149 00:10:26,560 --> 00:10:29,595 We know there are lots of doors and there are 150 00:10:29,596 --> 00:10:33,833 lots of places to hide. I unlocked the back doors. 151 00:10:33,834 --> 00:10:36,836 It's all unlocked. Now we just got to wait. 152 00:10:36,837 --> 00:10:42,408 I was actually the individual who snuck downstairs and 153 00:10:42,409 --> 00:10:50,082 locked the basement door. And it's that one choice where 154 00:10:50,083 --> 00:10:54,920 I was just kind of going along with it. I really didn't stop 155 00:10:54,921 --> 00:10:56,889 and say, "Why am I doing this?" 156 00:10:56,890 --> 00:11:01,794 I just did it, and that one thing 157 00:11:01,795 --> 00:11:08,934 that I did started this whole thing, and that's something 158 00:11:08,935 --> 00:11:15,041 that is hard to deal with because all I had to do 159 00:11:15,042 --> 00:11:19,644 was just not do that and this may have never happened. 160 00:11:41,500 --> 00:11:46,571 Cassie was there alone, and we both had masks on. 161 00:11:48,174 --> 00:11:54,880 He walks up and tells me, "You do something scary 162 00:11:54,881 --> 00:11:57,016 that's going to freak her out." And I'm like, "Okay." 163 00:11:57,017 --> 00:12:04,455 So I grab a door and I open it and I slam it. And then 164 00:12:07,860 --> 00:12:10,629 we just kind of go into the room and the crime happens, 165 00:12:10,630 --> 00:12:17,502 and we stabbed her. I really don't have a lot of 166 00:12:19,071 --> 00:12:24,242 vivid memories of the actual incident. 167 00:12:25,745 --> 00:12:28,246 I have what they call... 168 00:12:31,016 --> 00:12:34,220 flash bulb images of that. 169 00:12:34,221 --> 00:12:39,492 She's breathing hard and her eyes are open, 170 00:12:39,493 --> 00:12:45,430 and she's looking off someplace else and, uh... 171 00:12:46,999 --> 00:12:49,267 And then I... 172 00:12:50,102 --> 00:12:52,370 I remember... 173 00:12:54,140 --> 00:12:56,174 so many, like... 174 00:12:57,109 --> 00:13:01,514 She wasn't screaming but in my head I could hear that. 175 00:13:01,515 --> 00:13:06,250 And I know she screamed before it happened to her, and uh... 176 00:13:08,287 --> 00:13:15,093 but in my memories I have, she's screaming. 177 00:13:38,851 --> 00:13:40,686 Okay. 178 00:13:40,687 --> 00:13:43,556 When it did happen, I was just too shocked 179 00:13:43,557 --> 00:13:47,760 to do anything and I just ran from it and hid from it 180 00:13:47,761 --> 00:13:52,196 and I made a lot of mistakes. But... 181 00:13:53,098 --> 00:13:57,203 they were, I don't know. 182 00:13:57,204 --> 00:14:02,908 I just think, I look at myself now and I'm 21 and I think 183 00:14:02,909 --> 00:14:08,581 how stupid I was at 16, and I just think how I feel like I'm 184 00:14:08,582 --> 00:14:11,516 paying for somebody else's mistakes at this point. 185 00:14:45,351 --> 00:14:49,855 When I was 13 years old, I had a friend who was over, he 186 00:14:49,856 --> 00:14:54,093 was hanging out at the house and my mom just went and left on me. 187 00:14:54,094 --> 00:14:59,031 He said, "Man, you mom's really a bitch. You should kill her." 188 00:14:59,032 --> 00:15:03,135 And I didn't really take it seriously, but that's the first 189 00:15:03,136 --> 00:15:05,804 time the thought was planted in my head and I started escaping 190 00:15:05,805 --> 00:15:09,108 into that daydream. When things got really bad I could say, 191 00:15:09,109 --> 00:15:12,011 "Oh, yeah. One day, they're going to be gone." 192 00:15:12,012 --> 00:15:15,214 In the early morning hours of December 17, 193 00:15:15,215 --> 00:15:19,151 15-year-old Jacob Ind slaughtered his mother and 194 00:15:19,152 --> 00:15:20,619 stepfather in their Woodland Park 195 00:15:20,620 --> 00:15:22,821 home with the help of a friend. 196 00:15:22,822 --> 00:15:25,146 Jacob Ind reportedly tried to block out the screaming. 197 00:15:25,147 --> 00:15:27,660 His appearance is that of a studious prep 198 00:15:27,661 --> 00:15:31,730 school student. As they say, Jacob Ind was cold and cruel, 199 00:15:31,731 --> 00:15:34,767 that he recruited schoolmate Gabrial Adams to do the job. 200 00:15:34,768 --> 00:15:37,770 The kid was looney tunes and I just knew he would 201 00:15:37,771 --> 00:15:42,074 help so I asked for his help. I just didn't want anything 202 00:15:42,075 --> 00:15:46,011 directly to do with it. I just wanted the problem solved, 203 00:15:46,012 --> 00:15:48,147 things to be gone. I didn't want to see it, 204 00:15:48,148 --> 00:15:51,150 I didn't want to hear it; I wanted nothing to do with it. 205 00:15:51,151 --> 00:15:54,752 I just wanted him gone, and that's what I thought would happen. 206 00:15:57,389 --> 00:16:01,327 I was sleeping when I heard the gunshots go off. 207 00:16:01,328 --> 00:16:08,734 The .22 that I gave Gabrial really didn't have enough of a 208 00:16:08,735 --> 00:16:12,004 punch to get the job done. 209 00:16:12,005 --> 00:16:17,276 Went down the hall and saw their door was open 210 00:16:17,277 --> 00:16:22,013 to their bedroom. It was like 1:00 in the morning and... 211 00:16:24,483 --> 00:16:28,988 I saw my stepdad. He was bleeding and... 212 00:16:28,989 --> 00:16:31,255 He said he'd been shot. 213 00:16:32,424 --> 00:16:36,929 So I went back to my room and got some pepper spray and 214 00:16:36,930 --> 00:16:39,865 I came back and I sprayed him with the with pepper spray, 215 00:16:39,866 --> 00:16:45,804 my mom and stepdad. And I went into their bathroom and closed 216 00:16:45,805 --> 00:16:50,909 the door and I figured, "Okay, maybe this can end. Maybe this 217 00:16:50,910 --> 00:16:55,247 can be over by now." And it kept going and going, 218 00:16:55,248 --> 00:16:57,916 I couldn't see anything but I heard that there was still a 219 00:16:57,917 --> 00:17:04,089 ruckus. I just wanted it to be over. And so eventually 220 00:17:04,090 --> 00:17:10,329 the .357 was in the closet in the bathroom, 221 00:17:10,330 --> 00:17:14,233 and I grabbed that and loaded it with one bullet. 222 00:17:14,234 --> 00:17:18,337 And I opened up the door and I saw my stepdad there, 223 00:17:18,338 --> 00:17:20,039 slumped kind of against a wall 224 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:25,476 and I shot him in the head and he fell over. 225 00:17:28,914 --> 00:17:34,019 I turned around and went back, put another bullet, and my mom 226 00:17:34,020 --> 00:17:35,753 was there. 227 00:17:38,157 --> 00:17:41,527 I shot at her and I missed her. 228 00:17:41,528 --> 00:17:43,462 And... 229 00:17:43,463 --> 00:17:49,134 So I turned around and went back, put another bullet, and went to 230 00:17:49,135 --> 00:17:53,138 shoot her again and she asked me, "Why?" Because at 231 00:17:53,139 --> 00:17:58,143 that point it dawned on her what was going on. And I told her 232 00:17:58,144 --> 00:18:03,114 because she was cruel, and I shot her, and she fell over. 233 00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:21,500 I was just so, I guess, disturbed by what I saw. 234 00:18:21,501 --> 00:18:26,470 I grabbed my alarm clock, went to the downstairs couch, 235 00:18:27,706 --> 00:18:31,276 and I just laid there and I couldn't think. 236 00:18:31,277 --> 00:18:35,946 And I said, "Man, I fucked up. Fucked up so bad." 237 00:18:53,987 --> 00:18:56,068 Our organization is the 238 00:18:56,069 --> 00:19:02,474 National Organization of Victims of Juvenile Lifers, NOVJL. 239 00:19:02,475 --> 00:19:05,544 I'm the president of NOVJL, Jennifer Bishop-Jenkins. 240 00:19:05,545 --> 00:19:09,314 Three of my family members were murdered in Chicago in 1990 by a 241 00:19:09,315 --> 00:19:14,352 teenager who is serving three life without parole sentences in Illinois. 242 00:19:17,222 --> 00:19:19,625 He got mandatory sentences for Nancy and Richard 243 00:19:19,626 --> 00:19:22,628 but for the baby he got an optional life sentence. 244 00:19:22,629 --> 00:19:25,564 Nancy was crossing her arms over her pregnant belly. 245 00:19:25,565 --> 00:19:29,001 He pointed the gun and fired, and he hit it. 246 00:19:29,002 --> 00:19:30,269 Hi, Jenny. 247 00:19:30,270 --> 00:19:31,537 Hi, Nancy. 248 00:19:31,538 --> 00:19:32,971 How are you? 249 00:19:32,972 --> 00:19:40,045 My ability to be Nancy's sister in the world is 250 00:19:40,046 --> 00:19:46,318 entirely about she was murdered. I cannot be her sister 251 00:19:46,319 --> 00:19:50,956 and not care about that. The discovery that there was a 252 00:19:50,957 --> 00:19:55,127 movement to free Nancy and Richard's killer was shocking 253 00:19:55,128 --> 00:19:58,964 and horrifying to me. I actually think that that has motivated me 254 00:19:58,965 --> 00:20:02,668 more than anything, never to have any legal finality at all 255 00:20:02,669 --> 00:20:07,673 to your case. I was awake all night for four straight months 256 00:20:07,674 --> 00:20:09,942 I was so traumatized by this. 257 00:20:09,943 --> 00:20:13,445 I cried all the time, I was worried about it, I couldn't think, I just thought, 258 00:20:13,446 --> 00:20:15,981 "God, if I have to spend the rest of my life like this 259 00:20:15,982 --> 00:20:18,550 and my children and my mother, don't you care about the victims 260 00:20:18,551 --> 00:20:21,320 at all? Doesn't this worry you at all?" 261 00:20:21,321 --> 00:20:24,456 It's at that point that I realized how absolutely 262 00:20:24,457 --> 00:20:29,627 clueless they are about the cost of victimization. 263 00:20:32,397 --> 00:20:34,733 I have thought so often as I have been 264 00:20:34,734 --> 00:20:37,501 down in this basement where they died, 265 00:20:38,670 --> 00:20:43,408 "Was she angry? Was she puzzled? 266 00:20:43,409 --> 00:20:47,311 Did she wonder why he had killed her? 267 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,615 Was she lonely, was she cold?" 268 00:21:06,265 --> 00:21:08,400 It's something that comes over you 269 00:21:08,401 --> 00:21:13,739 when you're down here but life goes on. 270 00:21:13,740 --> 00:21:18,542 Sometimes you forget why, but we go on with it. 271 00:21:38,096 --> 00:21:40,032 Brian didn't want us to know how much 272 00:21:40,033 --> 00:21:46,705 pain he was in, and he kept that very separate from our life 273 00:21:46,706 --> 00:21:51,677 with him and the family's life with him. 274 00:21:51,678 --> 00:21:54,479 He just didn't want us to know how much pain he was in. 275 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,516 That's the thing that kept us up at night 276 00:21:57,517 --> 00:21:59,251 the most for the longest amount of time, 277 00:21:59,252 --> 00:22:04,889 is trying to find... trying to remember something that we missed 278 00:22:09,194 --> 00:22:13,832 We adopted Brian at birth. When I think about 279 00:22:13,833 --> 00:22:18,537 our relationship and how strong of a relationship we had 280 00:22:18,538 --> 00:22:21,440 with Brian and how... 281 00:22:21,441 --> 00:22:24,942 good of a relationship we had with Brian, 282 00:22:29,281 --> 00:22:34,485 if you walked into our house back then, 283 00:22:37,122 --> 00:22:40,192 we were normal. 284 00:22:40,193 --> 00:22:45,364 And why we didn't recognize that we had... 285 00:22:45,365 --> 00:22:47,865 such a problem... 286 00:22:51,069 --> 00:22:56,574 is horrific and something we still cannot... 287 00:22:57,376 --> 00:22:59,643 bear. 288 00:23:04,182 --> 00:23:06,584 Sorry. 289 00:23:12,457 --> 00:23:14,626 Hello. This call is subject to 290 00:23:14,627 --> 00:23:18,128 monitoring and recording. 291 00:24:06,611 --> 00:24:09,981 I just had an emotional visit yesterday; it was really 292 00:24:09,982 --> 00:24:13,718 hard to come here alone. It's always hard to go to a prison 293 00:24:13,719 --> 00:24:20,192 and it's hard to walk down the gates and to be buzzed in, 294 00:24:20,193 --> 00:24:22,761 and to wait, and to go to the searches, and then 295 00:24:22,762 --> 00:24:28,700 just to imagine doing this forever until I'm dead, 296 00:24:28,701 --> 00:24:34,773 everybody involved is dead except for Torey and Brian. 297 00:24:34,774 --> 00:24:36,975 They will outlive the prosecutors and the 298 00:24:36,976 --> 00:24:40,345 families and everybody and there will be... 299 00:24:40,346 --> 00:24:41,613 it will still be going on. 300 00:24:41,614 --> 00:24:45,350 It's just very overwhelming all the time that there's never 301 00:24:45,351 --> 00:24:48,787 an end in sight or it's never... it's hard to 302 00:24:48,788 --> 00:24:53,225 imagine how we're going to spend our life doing this and I'm just 303 00:24:53,226 --> 00:24:59,496 overwhelmed today a little bit. It's just hard. 304 00:25:30,762 --> 00:25:34,533 My brother is going to be 26 years old this year, 305 00:25:34,534 --> 00:25:37,802 and he will have spent ten years, a decade, in prison. 306 00:25:37,803 --> 00:25:40,772 And it's a commitment to stay in somebody's life with 307 00:25:40,773 --> 00:25:42,473 that circumstance. 308 00:25:46,144 --> 00:25:50,314 The majority of families forget about them; 309 00:25:51,516 --> 00:25:53,617 I refuse to. 310 00:26:02,894 --> 00:26:06,464 On November 6, 2002, Stacy and Gary Alflen 311 00:26:06,465 --> 00:26:10,368 were shot to death in what many say was the couple's dream home. 312 00:26:10,369 --> 00:26:12,571 In opening statements, prosecutors painted the killers 313 00:26:12,572 --> 00:26:15,774 as cold-blooded who "killed for fun," 314 00:26:15,775 --> 00:26:19,510 maintaining that Josiah Ivy acted as the gunman. 315 00:26:29,087 --> 00:26:31,523 My parents visit him every week, too. 316 00:26:31,524 --> 00:26:37,495 He's chosen to forgive and he's just so very grateful 317 00:26:37,496 --> 00:26:39,664 of my parent's relationship and willingness to commit 318 00:26:39,665 --> 00:26:43,768 to visiting him, to be interactive in his life, 319 00:26:43,769 --> 00:26:47,005 and they have a great working relationship. 320 00:26:47,006 --> 00:26:50,707 What do you mean they have a great working relationship? 321 00:26:52,510 --> 00:26:56,414 What I mean by a great working relationship is that 322 00:26:56,415 --> 00:27:02,085 he's not embittered by anything that happened in our childhood. 323 00:27:11,730 --> 00:27:15,000 No, my parents spanked us when we were kids. 324 00:27:15,001 --> 00:27:18,103 I don't know if these days that's considered abuse 325 00:27:18,104 --> 00:27:21,905 or not, I didn't really look at it like that. 326 00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:53,638 Okay. Okay, so, maybe, yeah, there's, 327 00:27:53,639 --> 00:27:57,142 I guess there's some stuff I really don't want to talk about, 328 00:27:57,143 --> 00:27:59,577 at least not on camera, you know? 329 00:27:59,578 --> 00:28:01,845 But... 330 00:28:07,786 --> 00:28:12,689 I don't ever talk about it, no. 331 00:28:24,836 --> 00:28:28,972 As far as our childhood, it was... 332 00:28:30,208 --> 00:28:31,943 my parents regret a lot of it 333 00:28:31,944 --> 00:28:34,879 and I think they would do things very differently now 334 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,983 but can't go back in the past and Josiah has 335 00:28:38,984 --> 00:28:41,820 forgiven my parents. 336 00:28:41,821 --> 00:28:43,621 I know you used the word, 337 00:28:43,622 --> 00:28:48,026 but did you guys grow up in a cult? 338 00:28:48,027 --> 00:28:50,061 Yeah, when we were younger 339 00:28:50,062 --> 00:28:54,564 we definitely grew up in a religious cult. 340 00:29:06,978 --> 00:29:12,217 I will tell you, I don't think... I don't like 341 00:29:12,218 --> 00:29:15,285 remembering our old home. 342 00:29:17,756 --> 00:29:20,023 At the end there... 343 00:29:21,326 --> 00:29:23,161 you know, before Josiah was 344 00:29:23,162 --> 00:29:25,028 going to be sent away. 345 00:29:27,265 --> 00:29:28,833 And you walk in every room and you have 346 00:29:28,834 --> 00:29:35,005 memories of things that you'd rather not have. 347 00:29:54,159 --> 00:29:58,730 Do you feel like I'm still being closed? 348 00:29:58,731 --> 00:30:03,533 I think you're being as open as you're capable of being. 349 00:30:06,604 --> 00:30:09,840 On the abuse stuff, yeah. 350 00:30:26,424 --> 00:30:28,692 Just... 351 00:31:10,717 --> 00:31:13,104 How old were you when 352 00:31:13,105 --> 00:31:15,340 your stepfather molested you? 353 00:31:15,341 --> 00:31:21,079 Four. Four, five, six. A little bit of it, 354 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,916 it's still something very easy to run away from 355 00:31:24,917 --> 00:31:28,318 and not address and not confront. 356 00:31:29,787 --> 00:31:32,957 The brain is a beautiful mechanism 357 00:31:32,958 --> 00:31:35,894 keeping stuff like that shut out. 358 00:31:35,895 --> 00:31:38,863 How long did it go on? Did your mom know 359 00:31:38,864 --> 00:31:42,166 about it? Did you ever tell anybody? 360 00:31:42,167 --> 00:31:45,270 No, God no. I never told anybody about it. 361 00:31:45,271 --> 00:31:47,839 Can I ask what they did to you? 362 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,675 It's not really something I like talking about at all. 363 00:31:57,348 --> 00:31:59,817 My daughter started telling me about this weird kid 364 00:31:59,818 --> 00:32:01,986 in her geometry class and she said he dressed 365 00:32:01,987 --> 00:32:05,290 like a hippie and she said he was nice but a little odd. 366 00:32:05,291 --> 00:32:07,358 And then the day of the murders she said, 367 00:32:07,359 --> 00:32:09,127 "Jacob Ind killed his parents." 368 00:32:09,128 --> 00:32:11,963 And I said, "Is that the kid you were talking to me about?" 369 00:32:11,964 --> 00:32:16,668 And she said, "Yes." And that's how Jacob Ind came into my life 370 00:32:16,669 --> 00:32:20,872 because I couldn't get him out of my mind and I kept thinking, 371 00:32:20,873 --> 00:32:24,608 "What would make a 15-year-old kill his parents?" 372 00:32:30,682 --> 00:32:34,317 He would have us get undressed, 373 00:32:36,421 --> 00:32:38,756 then tie us, 374 00:32:38,757 --> 00:32:43,394 start to masturbate, and after he was done 375 00:32:43,395 --> 00:32:45,795 he would get dressed 376 00:32:49,133 --> 00:32:50,768 and say, 377 00:32:50,769 --> 00:32:56,439 "You're so fucking dirty. Go and take a fucking shower." 378 00:32:57,942 --> 00:33:00,845 How do you treat a kid like a piece of shit? How do you do 379 00:33:00,846 --> 00:33:04,681 that to him? I can't wrap my brain around that, 380 00:33:05,583 --> 00:33:08,618 just the cruelty of it. 381 00:33:11,723 --> 00:33:13,791 My mom used to give me enemas when I 382 00:33:13,792 --> 00:33:18,162 was like four or five years old for reasons that didn't 383 00:33:18,163 --> 00:33:21,933 make any sense. And when you think back it's like, 384 00:33:21,934 --> 00:33:26,237 "I don't... that's odd." 385 00:33:26,238 --> 00:33:31,042 In traumatized children, as they become adolescents, 386 00:33:31,043 --> 00:33:35,346 we often see the remains of the trauma if it has not 387 00:33:35,347 --> 00:33:39,917 been treated, in the form of depression, aggression, 388 00:33:39,918 --> 00:33:44,055 somebody does something to them and having 389 00:33:44,056 --> 00:33:50,762 been victimized before, they overreact it and harm the person 390 00:33:50,763 --> 00:33:54,232 who victimized them. 391 00:33:54,233 --> 00:33:58,836 My stepdad was the source of terror, slamming me up 392 00:33:58,837 --> 00:34:02,173 against a wall and telling me he'd crush my head in. 393 00:34:02,174 --> 00:34:07,011 But that was more tolerable, really to me, 394 00:34:07,012 --> 00:34:11,449 than the cruelty and coldness in my mom. 395 00:34:11,450 --> 00:34:16,421 That filled me with more despair than anything else. 396 00:34:16,422 --> 00:34:19,190 I could put up with getting beat up. That's nothing; 397 00:34:19,191 --> 00:34:22,427 that hurts a little while and then it goes away. 398 00:34:22,428 --> 00:34:25,163 But being berated for three hours at a time, 399 00:34:25,164 --> 00:34:28,366 four hours at a time, being told how you're worthless, 400 00:34:28,367 --> 00:34:30,368 how you deserved what you got. 401 00:34:30,369 --> 00:34:35,339 When I was a little kid, and this is when I was 402 00:34:35,340 --> 00:34:40,044 getting molested and probably the worst abuse, 403 00:34:40,045 --> 00:34:45,516 my mom told me never to tell the cops anything because if I ever 404 00:34:45,517 --> 00:34:50,254 called the cops they would come and give them a medal because 405 00:34:50,255 --> 00:34:53,925 I was such a horrible, rotten kid who deserved 406 00:34:53,926 --> 00:34:55,725 what they gave me. 407 00:34:56,527 --> 00:34:59,864 And that stuck with me. 408 00:34:59,865 --> 00:35:06,971 I spoke up as much as I could. With as weak as I was 409 00:35:06,972 --> 00:35:12,076 at the time I thought I was screaming from a mountaintop, 410 00:35:12,077 --> 00:35:15,480 though objectively I was making tiny whimpers. 411 00:35:15,481 --> 00:35:21,785 But I raised every red flag I could and no one paid attention. 412 00:35:23,087 --> 00:35:28,059 I don't know; it put me in a very deep, dark place 413 00:35:28,060 --> 00:35:30,660 where I didn't see an option. 414 00:35:36,467 --> 00:35:39,504 We live in a very, very conservative community. 415 00:35:39,505 --> 00:35:42,440 A lot of people said, "Well, he killed them because he didn't 416 00:35:42,441 --> 00:35:44,509 want to take out the trash or whatever." That is not 417 00:35:44,510 --> 00:35:47,378 what happens in parricide cases; 90% of these kids 418 00:35:47,379 --> 00:35:50,481 are badly abused. Jacob tried to get help. 419 00:35:50,482 --> 00:35:53,618 His brother tried to get help. Nobody listened to them, 420 00:35:53,619 --> 00:35:56,120 so Jacob is serving a life sentence for the sins 421 00:35:56,121 --> 00:35:59,255 of our community. Nobody helped him. 422 00:36:31,189 --> 00:36:35,693 I joined the Bloods at around the age of 14, 423 00:36:35,694 --> 00:36:39,630 and as a Blood it didn't really mean much of anything 424 00:36:39,631 --> 00:36:45,102 except selling crack, getting into some fights here and 425 00:36:45,103 --> 00:36:50,241 there with the Crips. But eventually it became more 426 00:36:50,242 --> 00:36:53,377 serious, as they started shooting at us more, 427 00:36:53,378 --> 00:36:56,347 we started shooting at them more often. 428 00:36:56,348 --> 00:37:01,886 And the first time that I ever shot a gun... 429 00:37:01,887 --> 00:37:04,154 I killed someone, 430 00:37:10,461 --> 00:37:15,865 a young man who was just walking home from work. 431 00:37:17,368 --> 00:37:19,637 We said to that man that day, he was walking down the street, 432 00:37:19,638 --> 00:37:21,639 we said, "Hey, what's up, Blood?" 433 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,507 He said, "I don't gangbang." 434 00:37:25,576 --> 00:37:27,245 One of the people I was with 435 00:37:27,246 --> 00:37:29,680 jumped out of the car and said, "I didn't ask 436 00:37:29,681 --> 00:37:32,250 you if you gangbang. I said, 'What's up, Blood?'" 437 00:37:32,251 --> 00:37:34,884 And that young man took off running. 438 00:37:36,387 --> 00:37:40,089 We laughed, "Look at him, he's running." 439 00:37:42,627 --> 00:37:44,462 That man got back in 440 00:37:44,463 --> 00:37:47,298 the car, we circle around, we're going home, we were about to go 441 00:37:47,299 --> 00:37:51,569 home, we weren't even thinking about this guy anymore. 442 00:37:51,570 --> 00:37:54,571 But then we saw him running to a house. 443 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:57,341 And when he 444 00:37:57,342 --> 00:38:04,282 got to that house he knocked on that door and three Crips came 445 00:38:04,283 --> 00:38:06,182 out of that house. 446 00:38:08,319 --> 00:38:10,154 and that's how the whole incident 447 00:38:10,155 --> 00:38:11,955 started. 448 00:38:13,257 --> 00:38:16,761 That's when I made the decision that I'm going to shoot 449 00:38:16,762 --> 00:38:21,564 a gun at these guys' house to scare them. 450 00:38:44,889 --> 00:38:48,693 He was just a kid. At 16 years old, he was very 451 00:38:48,694 --> 00:38:51,395 easily influenced by his friends. 452 00:38:51,396 --> 00:38:54,565 Torey is much more of a follower than a leader. 453 00:38:54,566 --> 00:38:59,170 Yeah, who I was at that point and who I am now, 454 00:38:59,171 --> 00:39:01,272 it's like totally different people. 455 00:39:01,273 --> 00:39:04,141 But who Torey was at that age, at 16, he still 456 00:39:04,142 --> 00:39:06,644 didn't commit this crime. He's not saying that, 457 00:39:06,645 --> 00:39:08,379 he's not saying that. 458 00:39:08,380 --> 00:39:10,848 I'm saying I was... I made some mistakes 459 00:39:10,849 --> 00:39:12,183 and I learned from them. 460 00:39:12,184 --> 00:39:14,552 But your mistakes weren't anything you were 461 00:39:14,553 --> 00:39:17,722 charged with. They weren't for murder and conspiracy. 462 00:39:17,723 --> 00:39:19,457 Yeah. 463 00:39:19,458 --> 00:39:23,828 That was Brian. It must be harder, because 464 00:39:23,829 --> 00:39:27,630 you're innocent, to be facing it. 465 00:39:29,100 --> 00:39:30,221 Yeah, I guess. 466 00:39:33,838 --> 00:39:39,343 It's unusual that he would have that response 467 00:39:39,344 --> 00:39:44,115 and his parents having that response. 468 00:39:44,116 --> 00:39:51,589 It's a lot to deal with. You have to accept the societal 469 00:39:51,590 --> 00:39:57,161 brand that you are a convicted murderer, and that is 470 00:39:57,162 --> 00:40:04,902 a very scary term to have affixed to your name. 471 00:40:04,903 --> 00:40:08,672 And so it's really hard. 472 00:40:08,673 --> 00:40:15,945 He wants to please his parents, he wants to go home, 473 00:40:16,580 --> 00:40:21,652 and his kind of behavior is really common and it's ordinary, 474 00:40:21,653 --> 00:40:25,956 I think. I think what... 475 00:40:25,957 --> 00:40:30,694 makes somebody extraordinary is 476 00:40:30,695 --> 00:40:36,167 when they face everything and just kinda... 477 00:40:36,168 --> 00:40:37,367 accept it. 478 00:40:38,269 --> 00:40:43,307 It's a hard thing to admit I killed Cassie Stoddart. 479 00:40:43,308 --> 00:40:46,844 I stabbed a 16-year-old girl to death, 480 00:40:46,845 --> 00:40:49,312 that's pretty hard to say. 481 00:40:55,386 --> 00:41:00,291 Life never gets so serious until something like that 482 00:41:00,292 --> 00:41:04,295 happens. I was a 17-year-old kid; I didn't take anything 483 00:41:04,296 --> 00:41:08,466 serious. I hardly ever went to school. I was always 484 00:41:08,467 --> 00:41:13,637 skipping class, smoking weed, getting drunk, 485 00:41:13,638 --> 00:41:18,776 that's all I ever did, sell drugs. Life wasn't serious. 486 00:41:18,777 --> 00:41:21,512 Nothing was serious... 487 00:41:21,513 --> 00:41:24,747 until I took someone's life. 488 00:41:26,750 --> 00:41:31,187 Man, I wanted to get out of the gang right then and there, you know? 489 00:41:36,460 --> 00:41:40,897 When I first got here, I tried to blame others. 490 00:41:44,969 --> 00:41:50,441 And I met this individual in here and he asked me what happened 491 00:41:50,442 --> 00:41:53,878 in my crime, and I told him, "Oh, I'm not exactly 492 00:41:53,879 --> 00:41:59,483 sure what happened. They said I killed her, 493 00:41:59,484 --> 00:42:01,719 I'm not even sure if I did or not." And he sat me 494 00:42:01,720 --> 00:42:04,687 down and he's like... 495 00:42:05,890 --> 00:42:08,392 "Stop giving me a whole 496 00:42:08,393 --> 00:42:12,363 bunch of bullshit, okay? If you want my help you have to 497 00:42:12,364 --> 00:42:17,001 completely be honest with me." 498 00:42:17,002 --> 00:42:21,939 And he taught me about how I owe a tremendous 499 00:42:21,940 --> 00:42:27,578 debt to Cassie Stoddart, and the only way that I could even 500 00:42:27,579 --> 00:42:34,685 start paying that is to first of all tell exactly 501 00:42:34,686 --> 00:42:38,121 what happened to her and... 502 00:42:39,056 --> 00:42:43,327 do not dishonor her in anything that 503 00:42:43,328 --> 00:42:48,666 you do in your life. And I've tried that; it's very hard, 504 00:42:48,667 --> 00:42:53,069 it's very hard, but I think that... 505 00:42:54,271 --> 00:42:55,639 that's all I can do and 506 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,342 I have the obligation. I have to do that 507 00:42:58,343 --> 00:43:00,743 or I'm... 508 00:43:03,180 --> 00:43:05,948 a monster, I guess. 509 00:43:37,147 --> 00:43:41,085 When I got to prison, I still got myself involved in 510 00:43:41,086 --> 00:43:43,654 certain situations that were gang 511 00:43:43,655 --> 00:43:47,791 related. Still, even then, I felt like they were... it was 512 00:43:47,792 --> 00:43:50,828 like clothes that didn't fit. It just wasn't me, and 513 00:43:50,829 --> 00:43:53,998 it only took one incident in prison for me to say, 514 00:43:53,999 --> 00:43:58,769 "I'm living the same ridiculous way I was living 515 00:43:58,770 --> 00:44:04,575 before I got locked up. Man, I got to stop this." 516 00:44:04,576 --> 00:44:07,511 A friend of mine got into a fight with a Crip and 517 00:44:07,512 --> 00:44:11,148 I went to retaliate, after it was over with I just lined all 518 00:44:11,149 --> 00:44:15,885 of my friends up in the gym and I told them, "I'm out." 519 00:44:16,954 --> 00:44:21,992 I'd been studying Islam anyway, and I told them that 520 00:44:21,993 --> 00:44:27,464 I'm going to take this way of life called Islam; I'm going to 521 00:44:27,465 --> 00:44:32,970 take it serious. And in order to take it serious, I can't live 522 00:44:32,971 --> 00:44:39,809 two lives because Allah didn't make two hearts in one breast. 523 00:44:41,745 --> 00:44:46,817 So I chose to live the life of a Muslim and I left 524 00:44:46,818 --> 00:44:50,620 the life of a Blood behind me. 525 00:45:17,214 --> 00:45:20,818 When I first went to solitary confinement I was 17. 526 00:45:20,819 --> 00:45:23,220 I was stuck in a cell and I couldn't run away from who I 527 00:45:23,221 --> 00:45:30,060 was. In solitary, that's where all the worst of the worst are 528 00:45:30,061 --> 00:45:33,864 which, at the time, I thought the greatest convicts, the tough 529 00:45:33,865 --> 00:45:36,767 guys are, the real guys are. But eventually, 530 00:45:36,768 --> 00:45:41,772 I had to decide whether I wanted to be like 531 00:45:41,773 --> 00:45:45,142 those around me or if I want to be the type of man 532 00:45:45,143 --> 00:45:49,079 I idealized in my brain. 533 00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:54,618 And then I started looking at myself more in depth and said, 534 00:45:54,619 --> 00:45:57,488 "I don't want to be who I am right now either. I don't like 535 00:45:57,489 --> 00:46:02,493 who I am right now." So I started just going layer by 536 00:46:02,494 --> 00:46:07,164 layer through who I was, through how I thought, 537 00:46:07,165 --> 00:46:10,768 what my outlooks on life were, characteristics. 538 00:46:10,769 --> 00:46:14,738 And if I didn't like it I'd work on it, work on that one thing 539 00:46:14,739 --> 00:46:20,544 until I got rid of it, move to the next item. 540 00:46:20,545 --> 00:46:26,650 And as I learn new lessons from my studies, I've learned to 541 00:46:26,651 --> 00:46:32,256 apply it into my life. Forgiveness is one of them, 542 00:46:32,257 --> 00:46:34,457 be a more forgiving person. 543 00:46:37,728 --> 00:46:39,863 To try and have empathy 544 00:46:39,864 --> 00:46:43,901 with others, and to empathize with where they're coming from 545 00:46:43,902 --> 00:46:47,104 and from their situation rather than solely 546 00:46:47,105 --> 00:46:51,241 from my own, from judging from my own experience, 547 00:46:51,242 --> 00:46:54,311 which is definitely a radical change in thinking for most 548 00:46:54,312 --> 00:46:59,283 people. It really changed how I looked at the world and how I 549 00:46:59,284 --> 00:47:03,587 viewed human interactions and dealt with people and to me it's 550 00:47:03,588 --> 00:47:05,823 one of the most important lessons I've learned 551 00:47:05,824 --> 00:47:07,757 so far in prison. 552 00:47:19,069 --> 00:47:21,071 One of the reasons why life without parole is 553 00:47:21,072 --> 00:47:25,075 given as a sentence is because courts find that certain 554 00:47:25,076 --> 00:47:28,345 offenders are so dangerous that they can never be allowed to 555 00:47:28,346 --> 00:47:30,848 walk among us again, and that's a hard calculation to make. 556 00:47:30,849 --> 00:47:33,083 Life without parole is a very rare sentence across the 557 00:47:33,084 --> 00:47:35,219 country; it's very rarely given and the standards are 558 00:47:35,220 --> 00:47:38,121 really high for any age offender to ever receive it, 559 00:47:38,122 --> 00:47:39,623 as it should. 560 00:47:39,624 --> 00:47:42,226 But one of the reasons they do it is because they have found 561 00:47:42,227 --> 00:47:45,162 time and time again that if you release certain kinds of 562 00:47:45,163 --> 00:47:48,031 offenders they will re-offend and very violently. 563 00:47:48,032 --> 00:47:51,134 And that's what recidivism is, is the violent re-offense 564 00:47:51,135 --> 00:47:54,338 that happens when you let an offender out who is just not 565 00:47:54,339 --> 00:47:56,906 safe to be released. 566 00:48:00,043 --> 00:48:04,648 I started teenkillers.org as a blog where people have come in 567 00:48:04,649 --> 00:48:07,217 from the outside and posted their comments, and 568 00:48:07,218 --> 00:48:09,620 there's a posting by an attorney in California, 569 00:48:09,621 --> 00:48:13,123 Daniel Horowitz, whose wife was murdered by a juvenile lifer. 570 00:48:13,124 --> 00:48:16,293 If you are willing kill before you're even 18, 571 00:48:16,294 --> 00:48:20,664 you are so broken inside that unless you 572 00:48:20,665 --> 00:48:24,001 have some miraculous healing, unless something 573 00:48:24,002 --> 00:48:27,271 almost extraordinary happens, all you're going to do is gain 574 00:48:27,272 --> 00:48:31,174 control mechanisms. You're going to learn how to walk and talk 575 00:48:31,175 --> 00:48:35,010 like a regular person, as do many serial killers, 576 00:48:38,415 --> 00:48:43,220 but ultimately sieving underneath is that same sickness 577 00:48:43,221 --> 00:48:47,157 that erupted at least one time as a juvenile, incapable of 578 00:48:47,158 --> 00:48:50,392 feeling genuine compassion. 579 00:48:51,995 --> 00:48:55,132 For me, one of the biggest aspects of life without 580 00:48:55,133 --> 00:48:58,869 parole for a juvenile is that it automatically negates 581 00:48:58,870 --> 00:49:02,940 any chance for rehabilitation, automatically says, 582 00:49:02,941 --> 00:49:07,277 "What you've done at this early age 583 00:49:07,278 --> 00:49:10,314 completely makes anything you can do from that 584 00:49:10,315 --> 00:49:14,818 point on immaterial. You've thrown away your life, you're 585 00:49:14,819 --> 00:49:19,022 worthless, you're trash, we don't want you." 586 00:49:19,023 --> 00:49:23,060 I want to have a chance at a life. I understand 587 00:49:23,061 --> 00:49:26,496 that Cassie can't, and... 588 00:49:26,497 --> 00:49:31,233 I never ignore that. 589 00:49:32,102 --> 00:49:36,106 She's dead and not anything is going to change that. 590 00:49:36,107 --> 00:49:41,812 I did something terrible and there has to be 591 00:49:41,813 --> 00:49:46,016 consequences for that. Everything we do in life, 592 00:49:46,017 --> 00:49:47,851 there are always consequences. 593 00:49:47,852 --> 00:49:51,288 Oh, man, my consequence hurt my dad, my grandma, 594 00:49:51,289 --> 00:49:57,094 my aunts, even my friends and neighbors at school, 595 00:49:57,095 --> 00:50:02,299 I had no concept that what I was doing was going to hurt so many 596 00:50:02,300 --> 00:50:08,205 people. I was completely clueless about it and that's 597 00:50:08,206 --> 00:50:14,845 it's hard for me to build up much sympathy for my 598 00:50:14,846 --> 00:50:20,115 mom and stepdad, though I did originally right off the bat. 599 00:50:22,119 --> 00:50:26,390 But for all the innocent people that were hurt, 600 00:50:26,391 --> 00:50:30,092 like my brother, and like my family, 601 00:50:31,361 --> 00:50:32,996 it's almost unforgivable. 602 00:50:32,997 --> 00:50:38,402 And it's a weight that I tried to avoid, tried 603 00:50:38,403 --> 00:50:42,005 to keep off my shoulders for years. Now... 604 00:50:42,006 --> 00:50:43,907 that I have embraced 605 00:50:43,908 --> 00:50:49,780 it, my driving factor is I have to make it up to them. 606 00:50:49,781 --> 00:50:53,183 They're the only thing in this world I give a damn about 607 00:50:53,184 --> 00:50:57,354 anymore, and they're the reason I want to be the best person 608 00:50:57,355 --> 00:51:00,057 I can be and make something of myself 609 00:51:00,058 --> 00:51:02,392 is to make it up for them. 610 00:51:02,393 --> 00:51:04,995 I don't know. I have a lot of ambitions, 611 00:51:04,996 --> 00:51:11,835 and if I were to get out I'd know exactly 612 00:51:11,836 --> 00:51:16,073 what I do with my life. But being in here, if that's all I 613 00:51:16,074 --> 00:51:20,844 have is just these... it feels like all I have is 614 00:51:20,845 --> 00:51:24,414 just to sit here and rot and there are no redeeming 615 00:51:24,415 --> 00:51:29,119 qualities. There's nothing I can do really to alleviate 616 00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:30,886 any... 617 00:51:33,757 --> 00:51:35,959 I don't know. It's like just watching yourself 618 00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,495 decompose. It's just horrible. 619 00:51:42,599 --> 00:51:49,673 He's been in prison six years, and he's still on his 620 00:51:49,674 --> 00:51:53,343 first day. He hasn't progressed 621 00:51:53,344 --> 00:51:58,882 at all and it's going to hurt him in the end, either 622 00:51:58,883 --> 00:52:05,421 psychologically, if he has a conscience, or in courts. 623 00:52:06,857 --> 00:52:10,894 They don't want to hear that you're completely 624 00:52:10,895 --> 00:52:16,066 innocent. He's not innocent, he's not, I'm not innocent, 625 00:52:16,067 --> 00:52:21,138 I'm guilty and he's guilty, and that's where we all 626 00:52:21,139 --> 00:52:24,506 should start at. 627 00:52:31,214 --> 00:52:34,918 Twenty years. I would say about 20 years after that 628 00:52:34,919 --> 00:52:42,125 incident I began to try to put a plan in motion to 629 00:52:42,126 --> 00:52:46,930 instead of feeling bad, feeling down, feeling depressed about 630 00:52:46,931 --> 00:52:53,270 what I did, to try to help people, 631 00:52:53,271 --> 00:52:56,039 starting with the people that I was around. I didn't have 632 00:52:56,040 --> 00:53:01,111 to reach out to the free world. There is a bunch of gangbangers 633 00:53:01,112 --> 00:53:05,949 in prison. So I reached out to them, let them know, 634 00:53:05,950 --> 00:53:11,021 "Hey, there is a better life to live for you. There's a 635 00:53:11,022 --> 00:53:14,057 life that makes more sense." 636 00:53:14,058 --> 00:53:17,994 I had a lot of good, positive mentors in prison, and they 637 00:53:17,995 --> 00:53:20,530 would always hand me a book. They would always say, 638 00:53:20,531 --> 00:53:23,633 "What have you read today?" "Well, I haven't read 639 00:53:23,634 --> 00:53:26,069 anything today. " " Well, good because I have something for 640 00:53:26,070 --> 00:53:30,173 you, here." And I came up like that in prison. 641 00:53:30,174 --> 00:53:32,175 I grew up like that in prison. 642 00:53:32,176 --> 00:53:35,178 I began to educate others and I began to pass on those same 643 00:53:35,179 --> 00:53:38,181 things that those men taught me. I started feeling 644 00:53:38,182 --> 00:53:43,954 like, "This is what I'm supposed to do." And I wrote 645 00:53:43,955 --> 00:53:51,261 Governor Ritter, I didn't write and beg him to let me out 646 00:53:51,262 --> 00:53:57,133 of prison; I wrote him and asked him would it be okay with him if 647 00:53:57,134 --> 00:54:01,104 I were put in a position where I could try to keep young people 648 00:54:01,105 --> 00:54:04,973 from doing the same stupid thing that I did. 649 00:54:17,153 --> 00:54:19,756 My wife's son was convicted of first-degree murder 650 00:54:19,757 --> 00:54:25,428 when he had just turned 17. Brian just wasn't mature enough. 651 00:54:25,429 --> 00:54:28,064 I thank God that I'm not judged permanently on how 652 00:54:28,065 --> 00:54:31,334 I acted when I was 16. We need to fairly 653 00:54:31,335 --> 00:54:36,773 assess mitigating factors in some of these juvenile cases 654 00:54:36,774 --> 00:54:41,211 and we need to fairly assess who that person is today. 655 00:54:41,212 --> 00:54:44,614 If I could say something, all of this makes it sound as if 656 00:54:44,615 --> 00:54:48,551 we're making excuses. A life was taken. 657 00:54:48,552 --> 00:54:52,889 We cannot mitigate that, and we cannot say, 658 00:54:52,890 --> 00:54:57,260 "Somehow it's okay because whether this kid was 15 or 659 00:54:57,261 --> 00:55:01,798 they're 35, somebody was killed." But I think we have to 660 00:55:01,799 --> 00:55:05,135 look beyond that, and that's where Sharletta comes in. 661 00:55:05,136 --> 00:55:09,572 Sharletta Evans lost her 3-year-old son, Casson, 662 00:55:09,573 --> 00:55:12,709 to two juvenile lifers in a drive-by shooting. 663 00:55:12,710 --> 00:55:16,011 Let Sharletta tell her story. 664 00:55:18,315 --> 00:55:21,818 Hello. Thank you, Mary Ellen. 665 00:55:21,819 --> 00:55:25,188 Seventeen years ago, my three-year-old son, 666 00:55:25,189 --> 00:55:29,192 Casson Evans, was killed in a drive-by shooting. 667 00:55:29,193 --> 00:55:32,562 Twenty-one bullets were fired. One bullet entered the back 668 00:55:32,563 --> 00:55:38,735 window, entered into his temple, and shattered his brain stem. 669 00:55:38,736 --> 00:55:41,738 So the paramedics showed up. Right when they came 670 00:55:41,739 --> 00:55:45,942 into the house where we were standing, 671 00:55:45,943 --> 00:55:49,111 Casson took his last breath in my arms. 672 00:55:55,118 --> 00:56:01,825 I was overwhelmed with grief and sorrow, not knowing what to 673 00:56:01,826 --> 00:56:05,695 feel, not knowing to sit down, stand up, go to sleep, or stay 674 00:56:05,696 --> 00:56:11,735 up. You're just consumed with sorrow. I knew they were 675 00:56:11,736 --> 00:56:14,937 teenagers but I wanted justice. 676 00:56:17,307 --> 00:56:19,642 Years are going by, one 677 00:56:19,643 --> 00:56:22,645 of the shooters, his mother came to me after 11 years 678 00:56:22,646 --> 00:56:27,951 and asked me would I beg her pardon. Would I pardon her son 679 00:56:27,952 --> 00:56:31,488 and her for these deeds that they've done? 680 00:56:31,489 --> 00:56:37,394 And I'm like, "Wow, are you kidding? You know? No." 681 00:56:37,395 --> 00:56:42,499 And I just walked away. I began to argue with God, 682 00:56:42,500 --> 00:56:44,801 I began to cry and argue with God like, 683 00:56:44,802 --> 00:56:49,339 "What is wrong with these people? 684 00:56:49,340 --> 00:56:51,907 They still don't get it." 685 00:56:52,675 --> 00:56:55,378 I would not forgive anybody and 686 00:56:55,379 --> 00:56:57,512 I'm angry about this. 687 00:57:01,684 --> 00:57:05,321 Right there, I recognize the presence 688 00:57:05,322 --> 00:57:09,325 of the Lord, the spirit of God, saying, 689 00:57:09,326 --> 00:57:15,465 "Would you forgive?" My heart began to soften and 690 00:57:15,466 --> 00:57:20,570 have compassion where I found myself crying 691 00:57:20,571 --> 00:57:25,909 and praying and literally weeping 692 00:57:25,910 --> 00:57:29,813 for who they really were and what has happened to them in 693 00:57:29,814 --> 00:57:35,685 their lives that caused this act of violence, this emptiness within 694 00:57:35,686 --> 00:57:41,491 themselves. This could actually be my very own son. 695 00:57:41,492 --> 00:57:47,697 My surviving son was at this time 16 and 17, and this 696 00:57:47,698 --> 00:57:53,736 could very well have been him. So, I pretty much put 697 00:57:53,737 --> 00:58:01,410 myself in the place of the offender and the offender's family. 698 00:58:01,411 --> 00:58:09,184 The guilt and the shame is there for the offender's family. 699 00:58:11,788 --> 00:58:18,994 My whole family, we won't ever 700 00:58:19,896 --> 00:58:23,867 be able to understand what the victim's families 701 00:58:23,868 --> 00:58:27,135 go through but our whole family... 702 00:58:31,074 --> 00:58:33,341 hurts. 703 00:58:38,548 --> 00:58:43,453 Are we as a society, are we grown up enough and 704 00:58:43,454 --> 00:58:45,755 spiritual enough to say, "Okay, there is 705 00:58:45,756 --> 00:58:49,025 redemption and rehabilitation for some of them?" 706 00:58:49,026 --> 00:58:52,929 And does this person deserve a second chance at life? 707 00:58:52,930 --> 00:58:56,465 Has he shown a remorse? What does that look like? 708 00:59:09,812 --> 00:59:12,515 I made terrible decisions then. 709 00:59:12,516 --> 00:59:15,618 They're the worst I've ever made and I've had to live with those 710 00:59:15,619 --> 00:59:19,022 ever since. There are so many things that 711 00:59:19,023 --> 00:59:21,623 I should have done differently. 712 00:59:24,060 --> 00:59:27,829 I'm so sorry about what happened to them. 713 00:59:34,304 --> 00:59:36,571 I don't know. 714 00:59:40,677 --> 00:59:41,778 What if you're wrong? 715 00:59:41,779 --> 00:59:44,981 What if Josiah shot the two victims? 716 00:59:44,982 --> 00:59:49,519 Wouldn't change how I love him. It would inevitably 717 00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:52,589 change some things on how I feel about him but it 718 00:59:52,590 --> 00:59:56,358 wouldn't change how I love him. I... 719 00:59:59,062 --> 01:00:02,330 I can't... I can't... 720 01:00:04,133 --> 01:00:06,869 stomach the thought of 721 01:00:06,870 --> 01:00:09,771 him dying in prison. 722 01:00:21,918 --> 01:00:26,122 After the crime had happened, I had horrific dreams, 723 01:00:26,123 --> 01:00:31,027 bad dreams, where she was there and just 724 01:00:31,028 --> 01:00:36,933 graphic, gruesome dreams about her dying. 725 01:00:36,934 --> 01:00:43,805 I would wake up in the night and I would be scared, terrified. 726 01:00:52,982 --> 01:00:59,856 Now I have dreams of her at school and everything is good. 727 01:00:59,857 --> 01:01:08,164 She is always smiling but I always know in the 728 01:01:08,165 --> 01:01:14,237 dream that I killed her, and those dreams are... 729 01:01:14,238 --> 01:01:16,504 even worse. 730 01:01:20,576 --> 01:01:27,650 And now it's like the only thing I can do is hurt 731 01:01:27,651 --> 01:01:29,618 myself. 732 01:01:31,220 --> 01:01:35,624 It takes away the pain of... 733 01:01:38,828 --> 01:01:41,830 just knowing what I did. 734 01:01:46,469 --> 01:01:50,206 Remorse equals pain. You're feeling pain for what 735 01:01:50,207 --> 01:01:53,676 you've done to someone else. And it's very easy to deny pain and 736 01:01:53,677 --> 01:01:58,448 run away from pain, and I did it for a long time. 737 01:01:58,449 --> 01:02:01,017 And then I started becoming aware of 738 01:02:01,018 --> 01:02:06,923 everyone else who was hurt and feeling remorse for 739 01:02:06,924 --> 01:02:10,226 that and then running away from that pain as soon as I realized 740 01:02:10,227 --> 01:02:13,496 it. I said, "Whoa, whoa, I don't want to feel pain. So, no, it's 741 01:02:13,497 --> 01:02:15,898 not my fault that all those people are hurt. I'm going to 742 01:02:15,899 --> 01:02:19,802 still put it back on my parents. If they didn't do all that to me 743 01:02:19,803 --> 01:02:23,906 well then these people wouldn't have been hurt either." 744 01:02:23,907 --> 01:02:28,144 And it took... 745 01:02:28,145 --> 01:02:32,782 probably close to a decade before I could 746 01:02:32,783 --> 01:02:38,687 have the strength to stop and say, "No. My fault." 747 01:02:40,289 --> 01:02:42,125 What makes 748 01:02:42,126 --> 01:02:43,926 so much of it worse now, thinking back at my 749 01:02:43,927 --> 01:02:46,696 childhood, is now that I'm a grown man, I've 750 01:02:46,697 --> 01:02:50,366 seen kids. I've seen how the relationship is supposed to be 751 01:02:50,367 --> 01:02:52,668 with your parents. Obviously, they had to 752 01:02:52,669 --> 01:02:55,104 have been mentally ill. They're passing 753 01:02:55,105 --> 01:02:58,841 down garbage from their past. It's a cycle. 754 01:02:58,842 --> 01:03:03,079 They had their own issues that led into it that lessened their 755 01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:07,283 culpability. And when you start thinking about that 756 01:03:07,284 --> 01:03:09,585 it's like, "Wait a minute, they didn't deserve what happened to 757 01:03:09,586 --> 01:03:12,889 them that caused them that way." And it starts feeding into 758 01:03:12,890 --> 01:03:18,261 itself and it's like, "Wow." If I'm going to say, "I deserve 759 01:03:18,262 --> 01:03:20,663 another shot because I was screwed up and I didn't... 760 01:03:20,664 --> 01:03:23,900 I was made to be who I am," then I have to have 761 01:03:23,901 --> 01:03:29,839 the same amount of empathy for them and what they went through 762 01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:32,540 that made them into who they were. 763 01:03:35,678 --> 01:03:37,880 A decision just released by the U.S. Supreme 764 01:03:37,881 --> 01:03:40,249 Court will change the way juveniles are sentenced. 765 01:03:40,250 --> 01:03:42,218 There was another ruling that you 766 01:03:42,219 --> 01:03:45,087 need to know about. The justices ruled five to four that 767 01:03:45,088 --> 01:03:48,925 life without parole sentences are cruel and unusual 768 01:03:48,926 --> 01:03:51,661 punishment for juvenile offenders. That's anyone under 769 01:03:51,662 --> 01:03:54,764 the age of 18 regardless of the crime. 770 01:03:54,765 --> 01:03:56,899 The ruling could affect as many as 38 states 771 01:03:56,900 --> 01:03:59,869 where laws allow life without parole for teenagers. 772 01:03:59,870 --> 01:04:01,938 At first when they came on they 773 01:04:01,939 --> 01:04:05,141 just said, "Life without parole for juveniles has been 774 01:04:05,142 --> 01:04:08,010 abolished." I was so happy because they didn't put any 775 01:04:08,011 --> 01:04:13,349 caveats in there, no stipulations. And, man, I was 776 01:04:13,350 --> 01:04:15,751 jumping up and down in the cell I was so happy. 777 01:04:15,752 --> 01:04:17,053 What the court held by five to 778 01:04:17,054 --> 01:04:21,023 four, Justice Anthony Kennedy joining the four liberals said 779 01:04:21,024 --> 01:04:27,163 that, "It is unconstitutional for a law to say 780 01:04:27,164 --> 01:04:30,666 a juvenile convicted of murder must automatically serve 781 01:04:30,667 --> 01:04:34,170 life without parole. The judge or jury has to make a separate 782 01:04:34,171 --> 01:04:37,773 determination about whether the individual should 783 01:04:37,774 --> 01:04:40,243 serve life without parole. 784 01:04:40,244 --> 01:04:42,078 And the next hour when the news came 785 01:04:42,079 --> 01:04:46,983 on again they threw in the little limitations. Mandatory 786 01:04:46,984 --> 01:04:50,786 life without parole was unconstitutional and that they 787 01:04:50,787 --> 01:04:54,924 could still gives kids life without parole. And it 788 01:04:54,925 --> 01:04:57,994 tempered us a little bit but that's the ruling that we 789 01:04:57,995 --> 01:05:04,400 expected all along. So, we're still very happy and we still 790 01:05:04,401 --> 01:05:07,937 actually can tangibly see light at the end of the tunnel. 791 01:05:07,938 --> 01:05:13,276 Judges will have to face that question of, 792 01:05:13,277 --> 01:05:17,914 "Are there children who should be in the adult 793 01:05:17,915 --> 01:05:23,286 system for long years, or for life? And how do we 794 01:05:23,287 --> 01:05:28,356 identify which children those are?" 795 01:05:29,058 --> 01:05:30,760 They have, on the one 796 01:05:30,761 --> 01:05:36,866 hand, a terrible offense, victims whose lives 797 01:05:36,867 --> 01:05:42,371 will never be the same, the community that's harmed by 798 01:05:42,372 --> 01:05:47,944 feeling unsafe when a crime of this sort occurs. 799 01:05:47,945 --> 01:05:54,684 And on the other hand, a young person who is 800 01:05:54,685 --> 01:05:59,422 childish, damaged by trauma, whose never been arrested 801 01:05:59,423 --> 01:06:05,127 before, who's never had counseling services before, and 802 01:06:05,128 --> 01:06:10,299 is amenable to rehabilitation. From my experience, the number 803 01:06:10,300 --> 01:06:16,971 of kids who cannot be rehabilitated is very small. 804 01:06:56,846 --> 01:07:02,018 On January 8, 2011, one of the 805 01:07:02,019 --> 01:07:05,821 sergeants in my cell house called me into his 806 01:07:05,822 --> 01:07:09,325 office and spun his computer around and said, 807 01:07:09,326 --> 01:07:15,364 "Do you recognize this name?" It was the governor's website and I 808 01:07:15,365 --> 01:07:17,767 said, "Yeah, it's my name." He said, "What does it say?" 809 01:07:17,768 --> 01:07:22,304 I said, "It says Sean Taylor... 810 01:07:22,305 --> 01:07:28,044 sentenced in 1990 to life for 811 01:07:28,045 --> 01:07:34,984 first-degree murder has had his sentence commuted... 812 01:07:34,985 --> 01:07:37,252 to parole." 813 01:07:43,926 --> 01:07:47,295 I started crying immediately. 814 01:07:55,271 --> 01:07:57,073 Went back in the cell house 815 01:07:57,074 --> 01:08:00,976 and hugged all my friends and everybody. 816 01:08:00,977 --> 01:08:05,213 Everybody just was standing around crying... 817 01:08:06,715 --> 01:08:08,983 praising God. 818 01:08:11,253 --> 01:08:15,925 Everything feels beautiful out here, man, but I never try to 819 01:08:15,926 --> 01:08:21,197 lose focus. I say, "Even though I've been blessed and 820 01:08:21,198 --> 01:08:26,936 I'm enjoying my life out here, there's still always the 821 01:08:26,937 --> 01:08:31,841 mission to make sure that I can do whatever I can do, whatever I 822 01:08:31,842 --> 01:08:33,909 can do... 823 01:08:33,910 --> 01:08:38,380 whatever I can do to stop some young person 824 01:08:38,381 --> 01:08:40,549 from doing something like 825 01:08:40,550 --> 01:08:46,055 I did." Messing up their lives and messing up someone 826 01:08:46,056 --> 01:08:51,025 else's life and causing grief to someone else's family, 827 01:08:52,495 --> 01:08:56,698 I'll do whatever I have to do to stop that. 828 01:08:58,167 --> 01:09:01,370 I fully believe, 100%, that I'm going to get 829 01:09:01,371 --> 01:09:05,007 out, especially with the Supreme Court case that 830 01:09:05,008 --> 01:09:11,046 came down. But the pragmatist in me, about half of 831 01:09:11,047 --> 01:09:14,550 me, says it's going to be a couple more years, ten more 832 01:09:14,551 --> 01:09:18,686 years, who knows how long, but it's going to be a while. 833 01:09:26,695 --> 01:09:27,830 Hello? 834 01:09:27,831 --> 01:09:28,831 Hello. 835 01:09:28,832 --> 01:09:30,498 - Hi. - Hey, Dad. 836 01:10:08,037 --> 01:10:12,474 I knew that the truth was terrible. 837 01:10:12,475 --> 01:10:17,445 And I was really scared of coming clean. 838 01:10:19,014 --> 01:10:22,718 Years after this happened, we were visiting and I was 839 01:10:22,719 --> 01:10:30,492 like, "No, I am not innocent, Mom. I had a part in this. 840 01:10:30,493 --> 01:10:34,228 I knew it was going to happen and I went along with it." 841 01:10:36,599 --> 01:10:43,606 And she was devastated, of course. She had to accept 842 01:10:43,607 --> 01:10:49,243 that her son had a part in this horrible crime. 843 01:10:57,052 --> 01:11:02,324 I have personally seen my dad 844 01:11:02,325 --> 01:11:06,362 cry two times, and the first 845 01:11:06,363 --> 01:11:13,502 time was when I won a scholarship for a science 846 01:11:13,503 --> 01:11:19,141 project I did and the other time was when he was on the stand in 847 01:11:19,142 --> 01:11:26,314 court and he was crying because I hurt him so much. 848 01:11:30,119 --> 01:11:35,157 Your parents, they love you so much and then you show 849 01:11:35,158 --> 01:11:39,827 them this by destroying them. 850 01:11:48,837 --> 01:11:51,706 I got special parents. 851 01:11:57,646 --> 01:12:00,915 I just wish I could go back in time.71683

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