All language subtitles for Feels.Good.Man.2020.1080p.AMZN.WEB-DL.DDP2.0.H.264-NOH8JUSTLOVE-English

I always first start
with the eyeball like this,

and you gotta leave a little bit
of space there for the goo.

His little froggie eyelids.

That looks like sex parts
a little bit.

I've just always been
into drawing.

And it takes tons of time
to come up with a character

that you like enough
to draw over and over again.

It's just been kind of
a slow drip of frogs

throughout my entire life.

It's just one little frog after another,

after another, after another.

And then eventually,
it was Pepe.

It's a happy little frog.

What do people
get wrong about drawing Pepe?

Um...

Probably when they put Pepe
on the Internet saying, like,

"Kill Jews."

Are you familiar with this meme
called Pepe the Frog?

Okay, so for those who don't,

here's the thing.
Here's Pepe the Frog, okay?

Have you seen, you know,
this frog meme?

Uh, forgot the name of it.

Many of you may remember
Pepe the Frog who once...

♪ I saw a man today

♪ He led a big parade Downtown ♪

♪ And the doctor came

♪ He stands aside Talking down ♪

♪ Hey

♪ It sounds like

I bet 90% of your viewers
haven't heard of Pepe the Frog.

I thought
it was a frog in a wig.

The white supremacist movement

has taken over Pepe the Frog!

♪ 'Cause I've been really

♪ I've been in love with you

♪ I've been in love

♪ With you

♪ I've been in love

♪ With you

We're here
in the community thrift store,

and, uh, it all started here.

Ooh, let's see what's back here.

I do get, like,
waves of nostalgia

for the youthful time
in my 20s working here,

just hanging out
with my friends, and...

just riding a bike
around San Francisco.

So...

I basically just want
to be young again.

Guess what.

This is my old
office space here.

It used to be
the toy department.

This is where I spent my days.

-With...

That tickles.

...guys like that.

I would have literally
a mountain of toys every day,

and it was just
really inspiring.

It's like working
inside of a brain.

If I got caught up with my work,
I would just draw.

Every day would be, like,
new toys that would come in

and I would draw them, and so...

It was my ideal job situation.

Matt was always drawing that frog forever,
I swear.

That was his go-to thing
to draw,

so I've been seeing
that frog's face...

for as long as I've known Matt.

- Ew!

- Ew! Ew, ew, ew.
- Excuse you.

I mean, the first time
I actually named him Pepe

was for this comics
that I did called Playtime.

I was just messing around
on Microsoft Paint

and came up with Pepe and Brett.

Two characters.

They did things
like go to raves and paint.

It just kind of
naturally developed.

And then I just thought

it would be fun
to have four characters,

kinda like the Ninja Turtles.

It became Boy's Club.

A lot of the humor is kind of
about post-college zone.

You don't quite know
what you're doing,

but you like drinking
and hanging out.

The four characters
were just reflections

of my personality

and the personality
of my friends.

Landwolf, the party dog,

Andy was the jokester
of the group,

Brett liked to dance,

and then Pepe the Frog
was just kinda like

the little brother of the group.

The better I got to know Matt,

the more, kind of,
similarities I saw with him and Pepe.

Even the way Pepe looks,

like he kinda, like,
looks like Matt a little bit.

Matt was a little bit different

from what most people
would consider

a typical cartoonist.

I think it's more like this.

Mm-hmm.

Button down shirt, nerd glasses.

He seem like he was,
like, a cool guy.

And Boy's Club,

it's one
of the funniest comics of,

I don't know,
the last ten years.

What's happening here is
Landwolf is passed out,

but that's like how
he passed out.

Like, he didn't quite make it
onto the bed.

I don't know why,
I thought he was trying

to jerk off and he passed out,
like while he was...

Oh, I see.

Yeah.

I guess it's open
for interpretation, huh?

It is open for interpretation.

Landwolf, I think
he kind of represents

the kind of hairy,
gross roommate

that you have sometimes.

Kinda clogging the drains.

It just made me think of
our actual roommate, Chris.

Issues.

It's weird talking about these

because they're meant to be read
in the privacy of your own home.

I never actually had to explain
any of this shit.

I met Matt
at a comics convention

where we're signing
next to each other.

I loved Matt's comics.

I grew up with an older brother

so I already had
that sense of humor

where I liked, you know,
boner jokes and barf and farts.

To me, it felt very accessible.

Like, it's the sort
of masculinity

where you can be
in your underwear

singing to Shania Twain.

♪ Oh, oh, oh, go totally crazy

♪ Forget I'm a lady

♪ Men's shirts, short skirts

You know,
when I watched Seinfeld,

I liked Kramer the best.

When I read Boy's Club,
I liked Landwolf the best.

I guess Pepe's kind of more of an Elaine.

-I mean...

Elaine is great, but, uh...

But yeah, if Elaine had become
a symbol of the alt-right...

I would be like,

"Yeah, that's crazy.
That shouldn't be the case."

It seems incredibly random.

People are like,

"This is the character
we're going to use

for the Internet."

Like, "This is going to be
the mascot for the Internet."

One day, he was doing
Boy's Club comics

at my house.

I remember I was sitting
on Aiyana's little love seat

in her tiny ass apartment.

He said...

"Can you...

stand over there
and bend over and,

and kind of make it look like
you're pulling your pants down

while you're bending over
so I can draw you?"

You know,
toilets are hard to draw.

People pulling down their pants
is hard to draw.

So I kind of hunched over

and pretended
like I was pulling my pants down

and he drew a little sketch.

It ended up being Pepe.

So, that was my butt.

And my toilet.

-Ahh!

So is Pepe's body
based on Aiyana?

Whatever kind of weird stuff

kinda stuck with me
in childhood,

sometimes it ends up
in Boy's Club, like...

I remember when I was
in second grade

and I went to the bathroom
alongside my cousin David.

And he pulled his pants
all the way down to go pee.

Underwear and everything.

It seems
like it would feel really good

so I wanted to make a comic
about that.

Feels good, man.

That was the frame that...

...started it all.

I just thought it was cool

that I could just draw a comic,

scan it in
and put it on MySpace,

and then people
would see it instantly.

Back then, it was kind of
newer territory and...

and I liked the vibe
of MySpace a lot.

It was like, um, you were inside

somebody's locker room
or something.

At the time, I had some friends
that, like, were into exercise.

And they found it online,
like a before and after shot.

It would say, "Feels good, man."

I thought it was really weird.

A lot of weight lifters would be, like,

"Oh, I just finished
a great workout.

Feels good, man."

And I remember
just thinking, like,

"Oh, that can't be
because of Pepe."

You know, it's just some random accident.

The catch phrase,
"Feels good, man,"

started becoming more popular.

It would be a photo
of a cat or something

and it would say,
"Feels good, man."

Or there was one version of it
that said, "Feels Goodman,"

with John Goodman's face.

It was pretty funny at the time.

When I would check my email,

every so often,
somebody would send me a link

to a Pepe being in some kind
of weird chat room

or something like that.

I remember specifically,

my dad sent me a link
to this kid

who made a Pepe song.

♪ Hey, Pepe

♪ I heard you pull
Your pants down ♪

♪ All the way to go pee

- ♪ Could you show me?
- ♪ Feels good, man

♪ Feels good, man

And it was like
this big nerdy thing.

I was, like,
kind of interested in it

as an Internet phenomenon,

but I didn't really think
too much about it.

I was just like,
ha ha, whatever.

When it started to snowball...

and Matt didn't seem to mind,
I was a little, like...

"Well. I mean, that's weird."

I said, "Sue them. Lawyer up."

Man, I'm like an artist

so I don't like suing
other artists.

He's kind of just like, "Oh, yeah, man.

Just let them do
what they want."

Using Pepe as a meme.
That's cool, you know.

"Meme."

I didn't even know
what a meme was

or I don't even still know
if I'm saying that correctly,

but it was through Pepe
that I learned what a meme was.

It's hard to remember what I first thought

when I saw Pepe the Frog.

But I think
I kind of imagined, like,

in my student days,
these guys hanging out with a...

a spliff and having a nice time.

And he was just rather
sort of hopeless and sweet

and I just thought, "Aw, mm."

Chick, chick, chick!

Chickens, come on!

The whole idea
of memes comes from

Richard Dawkins' 1976 book,
The Selfish Gene.

Most of the book is about

what he called
"Universal Darwinism,"

which said all of biology
is driven by genes,

but culture is driven by memes.

He said, look around you

and you'll see floating about
in the primeval soup of culture

is information
copied by imitation

from person to person.

So that would include chairs,

trousers,

hairstyles.

All of these things
are only here

because humans have copied them

and the ones around us
are the winners

in an evolutionary battle.

And then, gradually came
the concept of Internet memes.

And people can easily see

that process happening...

with Pepe.

Pepe is a wonderful example
of a meme

that escaped out there
into the memosphere

and suffered all the things
you'd expect of a meme.

Pepe,
it's just folds upon folds.

Um...

The Pepe technique
is to draw too many lines.

There's another fold
and then another fold.

And, like, these...
these, like, lumps.

And he looks really cracked out,
but that's the idea.

It's like steering
into that mistake.

He also symbolizes
steering into the mistake

of staying
in your mom's basement.

I saw Boy's Club
around 2007 or so,

kind of when
he was first posting it

on the Internet.

Then it just kept appearing
in message boards.

"Feels good, man."

In that little story,

he's owning the fact
that he's this weird guy.

That moment of owning
your loserdom,

like owning your weirdness,
right? It's like...

perfect 4chan ethics.

Christopher Poole.

He was 14 years old,
living with his mom,

spending all his time indoors,
on the Internet, and...

He created this crazy monster
in his basement.

Now, over
7 million people are using it,

contributing over 700,000 posts per day.

And we've gone
from 1 board to 48 boards.

So 4chan,
just the way that it functioned,

was super conducive
to creating memes.

The way 4chan works is that

it's a Darwinian competition
for attention.

So you have a post.

And if the post gets
a lot of replies,

it floats to the top.

And if no one replies,
it sinks to the bottom

and quickly dies.

It's a winning
and losing system.

And it's a lot like
a video game.

There were all these
adolescent boys

trying to own each other
in the competition.

-And so it became this...

...culture of saying
the most offensive thing.

And so, like,
Pepe kind of melts into that community.

And all of the stuff
that just exploded

out of the culture
four or five years later

were being invented there
by all these clever people

and they were all anonymous.

On 4chan,
you're talking to another text box

so you're free to express
those kind of secret ideas

that people have

that they don't feel comfortable
expressing in real life.

I posted Pepes all the time.

To not post Pepe
would be strange

because it's just...
It's the meme.

Post, send. Boom.

So there I am right there.

It's hard to say why Pepe
gained popularity so fast.

You could say it was just
an easily relatable image.

I have my own collection. I
have my reaction image folder

filled with Pepe
and all the derivatives.

The term was like,
"We feel alone together."

Um, that was their idea.

As it ages,
it just gets more desperate.

They would describe themselves
as NEET.

NEET stands for Not in
Education Employment or Training.

The idea was that
they were trying to find a word

that described their situation,

for these sort of, like,
masses of kids

who are just unemployed or just
kind of dropped out of life.

I think the best thing would be
to start with a job.

- No. No!
- Yeah, absolutely.

She needs a job.

No!

So 4chan really comes
to embody that culture

of checking out and living
in your mom's basement.

It started in 2003
and still exists.

So imagine people
being on there ten years,

like it becoming a lifestyle.

A lot of people are talking
that they have

super hot basement layers
where they get to NEET it up.

Well, I mean, basically,
nobody's really touching my game

right now, you know? So...

Got the Primo couch bed

and I just kick this shit
all over the place

because I just don't give a fuck
about anything.

And, uh...

It's... it's a life.

I think I probably saw
images of Pepe first

on the fitness board of 4chan.

You know,
this frog was so prevalent.

What does Pepe mean to me?

What does he mean to me?

He's a frog.

He's a sad frog.

Sad frog.

Now on 4chan,
the quote-unquote sad frog

became the most popular image
for displaying sadness.

There were other images that
would describe that feeling.

You have things
like a picture of Keanu Reeves

sitting on a bench.

But maybe
he's just deep in thought.

That sad frog.
You knew what it was about.

Nothing else needed
to be said there.

Pepe the sad frog.

Pepe.

Pepe what?

- The sad frog.
- The sad frog?

- Pepe the sad frog.
- What's that?

You know, it wasn't something
that's really circulated heavily

on, like, Facebook

or any of that stuff
at the time.

Pepe just kinda felt
like uniquely 4chan.

Feels bad man.

I didn't know
about the Boy's Club comic

or anything like that.

I did not know
who Matt Furie was.

Even after
I learned about Boy's Club,

I was like, "Oh,
they're making a Pepe comic.

Oh, that's cool."

That's the story, um...

It's about
somewhere in the future.

The mutants have taken over
and they make new children.

I like this style of gun.

Are you, uh...

actually the guy that made...

- that made Pepe? Yeah.
- Yeah, yeah.

But it must suck for you
that it, uh...

That he has become, uh,

that he become hijacked by...
by 4chan.

I mean, it definitely sucks,
but, nothing's forever, right?

I'm just a spectator
to how things

kinda mutate and evolve
on the Internet.

You kinda see everything
as some big joke,

but it's like kind of a window
into this kinda like dark place.

I'll draw you a little Pepe.

People on the Internet
have their own characters

that Pepe was interacting with.

There's one where
he's interacting with this guy.

I think his name is Wojack.

I would see pictures of Pepe,

like, hugging this stark white
sad looking guy.

And I was like, "What is that?"

They call him, you know,
The Feels Guy or...

Wojack is the proper term.

He was for expressing
an unpleasant feeling.

I'd be sitting there
and kinda be tense from anxiety

kind of, like...

You know, and being...
like that.

And I go on the board,
I'd be like, "Okay.

These are my people."

We're all over the world but we all have

these feelings of anxiety
and everything together

and it's like a group therapy
on the Internet.

Even when I was at work,
we had these security cameras.

I would duck behind,
like, a stack of crates

and quick to be, like,
"You dumb idiots."

Then I'd check,
like, 10-15 minutes later,

you know, to see
who's replying to me,

and I would face an onslaught
of people just saying

I was the most
hideous man alive.

I would, you know,
wear that as a badge of honor.

I'd be like,
"Yes. I'm a true 4chan guy.

I'm a true social reject.
I'm a true freak.

Yeah, you're darn tooting."

I'm a latecomer to Pepe.

Uh, probably because
he's not my type.

I came to Pepe
after he had gone dark.

Pepe is a sad frog.

He's never happy.
He's just sort of miserable.

And I think,
for a huge population,

online and offline,
we're not really allowed

to express sorrow
or sadness or grief.

And this sad little frog
arrives online

in the midst of the push
to commodify the Internet.

What was going on at that point

was that everybody
was super damn positive.

The people were suddenly able
to make cash money

out of their image

which meant that they had to be,
like, totally rad,

happy, fitspo,
my best-self thing.

And in drops Pepe...
ripe for the taking.

Hey, guys. It's me, Lily.

Today I'm going to be doing
a Pepe transformation.

Pepe starts to percolate
into another population.

We've got a lot more women,
a lot more girls.

They were sharing
their own Pepe.

Hey, guys. I just googled
what a meme was

and I think I'm in love
with memes!

Pepe... is the best.

You draw the head,

which is just like a butt.

Things begin to spiral
really out of control.

A couple of celebrities,
Nicki Minaj and Katy Perry,

they had posted on Instagram
a couple of Pepe images.

A lot of people see it for the first time.

They wonder, "Who is this frog?

What is this frog?
What is this?"

I want to see some more of that.

They start making, like,
a migration over to 4chan.

Young women in particular,

downloading Pepe images,
using them for their own likes.

And that was seen as...

despicable.

I love Pepe so much.

The true Pepe is this Pepe.

Pepe has green skin. It's so beautiful.

It's different from frog.

Pepe green is special green.

It seemed to me, like, invasion.

You had people
that would come on and say,

"Why are all you
virgin losers here?"

You know,
"Where's the Pepe pictures at?

Where are they at?"

I strive to be Pepe.

Just kidding.

I hate Pepe the Frog.

Pe... whatever his name is.

Peep, Pepe.

Either way, he's stupid.

And I don't really know
why I made my face green

to prove the point
that I hate Pepe.

But let me prove it by saying,

"I hate you, Pepe."

I'm going to chop your head off.

Your little...

Your little froggie head off
like this.

It was serious
to a lot of people, like,

"This is the symbol
of our culture."

And it really was turning
into a total Pepe Fest.

Ooh, nice.

Pepe was just really
turning into a thing and, um...

my buddy Skinner was, like,

"Hey you should do
a clothing line."

Yeah, it was just kinda funny
to make something official

out of something that's so,
kind of, like...

bootlegged on the Internet.

I drew all these...

goofy-ass Pepes
that were kinda based on...

just whatever random nonsense
was out there on the Internet.

I like this one
with the little cigarette.

This one's particularly weird.

And this one is just...

I like that. That's a
very stripped down Pepe.

The sad frog golf shirt.

You can have
a pasta meal with your family

wearing this one.

Pepe was, like, a famous meme.

And my friend, Jay,
he got a tattoo gun.

He just had it set up
in his kitchen.

And so one night,

I think it was just
completely spontaneous.

We're just like,
"Oh, let's get Pepe tattoos."

It's like very little thought
goes into this at all, you know.

We just thought it was funny

to have a Pepe tattoo

and Matt was there
so it was like a tribute

to my friend.

I didn't know at the time

but I got it, like,
below my sleeve here.

That would kind of, uh,
come back to bite me.

As the Pepe defense was building

to try and steer people away
from using Pepe

for their own, you know,
normie usage...

that spawned a lot of angry,
raging Pepes.

But then,
that fateful day occurred

where there was a YouTube video
of screaming frogs.

Say something for the camera.

Look at the thing blow up
like a balloon.

They have a high pitched scream

which sounded a lot like...

And it became
like this battle cry.

There would be somebody
who would be coming in

from Instagram.

Sort of out themselves,
maybe a sex-haver

or a woman.

A neurotypical,
socially well-adjusted person.

Once you kinda get that seed
planted in the head of, like,

you know, the popular kids
and look...

look how they're living,

then look at you, you know.
You're this...

You're this... slug.

All you normies
have been bullying us

our whole lives.

I'll never be one of you
disgusting normies.

Fuck... normies.

You know, these were a group
of disempowered men

who had retreated
into fantasy worlds.

That was their last place of retreat,
in a sense.

And so, having women there
was what they didn't want

because that was a symbol
of their defeat in real life.

Ursula.

Hey.

- Is that Twilight Sparkle?
- Mm-hmm!

- Is that her name?
- Yeah!

She's like,
"Ursula, I'm going to help you."

Aw!

- Okay.
- That's so cute.

That one says,
"A pocket mouse sleeps...

- safely it in its nest."
- That's so cute.

- It's a little mouse.
- Oh.

People would just email me

fucked up pictures of Pepe

and it didn't really shock me.

I'd be more shocked by,
you know, people actually...

expressing some form
of cuteness or love

like this other stuff is just...
It's just garbage.

I think the weird thing

about American culture
in general is, like,

we do kinda celebrate garbage

and we also produce a hell
of a lot of physical garbage.

So it's just like...

fucking garbage world.

I was definitely conscious

of not wanting to be remembered

as the artist that did
Boy's Club.

So I just wanted
to keep doing other stuff.

There's no connection
between this frog and Pepe

other than they kinda look
like one another.

But this is just another frog
in a different place.

I decided to do
a whole kids book

that was totally wordless.

It follows the life of this frog
and his pet rat...

living in
a little mushroom house.

They travel on the back
of a bike.

They wake up at nighttime and go exploring.

Okay, look at me.

Through the forest

then they end up
surfing on some dolphins,

and swimming
and going underground.

I just really went

for the childlike wonder
with this one.

The Night Riders.

It's a work of highly
skilled craftsmanship.

It took him almost a year
to make it.

I told him, you know,
I saw that he had that in him.

He had a
Where the Wild Things Are

in him, I just knew it.

We were working on
The Night Riders

before all this insane
Pepe stuff started to happen.

Pepe's really just
the tip of the iceberg

for the kind of art
that Matt's capable of making.

How come the dragon
doesn't have wings?

It's more of a land dragon,

than a dragon of the air
or a dragon of the sea.

So he's... He's a land dragon.

The characters
are of different species,

but they seem like friends
from the neighborhood.

We can tell they love each other

and the book is built toward

a bunch of nocturnal animals
experiencing a sunrise.

The end.

Pepe had escaped
and he was roaming around.

And, like,
it was fun for a while.

Um, until, uh...

...it wasn't anymore.

And on 4chan...

whenever they thought

quote-unquote normies,
sort of outsiders or other sites

were stealing their memes,

they would try to make them
as offensive as possible.

It's like a classic
punk response.

Literally armored
like a punk, right?

And they're like,
"It's so offensive, I...

It can't be co-opted."

So they put him next to the
Trade Towers disintegrating.

They put swastikas all
over him and Nazified Pepe.

And it sort of snowballs.

Back then, it was just the most
offensive thing you could do.

But it now reads
as a weird prologue

to when the irony
kind of melted away.

There are people
on these platforms who believe

that because you've couched
your intention in a joke,

that you can disavow it
when people come asking.

That's right.
That's exactly right.

So you create this ambiguity
so there's no way for you

to mean
what you really mean ever.

Yeah.

I think what's appealing
about Pepe

is that he combines
this impossible mixture

of innocence and evil.

Like he has this kind
of knowing smile

while he's performing acts
that are really atrocious.

It sort of fulfills the idea

that we can say
these terrible things

and just mean them as jokes
all the time.

They're always just jokes
all the time

and you can't prove otherwise.

We're just a bunch
of kids in our underwear.

It's harmless.
No one really means it.

The problem, I think, is that
it's really demonstrable

in the worst cases
that this isn't funny.

You know, it's not funny
when people die.

CPR in progress.

Okay, we got
another gunshot victim at...

Shots fired! Shots fired!

A black car pulls up and stops

and he rolls down the window...

I just saw four gunshots.

A Friday night rampage

in this bustling college town

after two gun battles
with police and a chase,

seven people were dead.

Twenty-two year old
Elliott Rodger

believed to be the gunman.

Tonight investigators are
pouring over videos

Rodger posted online.

There was sort of this intense

pain that you could see
where he was

really divorced from reality.

Like he did
the shooting spree in a car,

a fancy car his parents
had bought for him

to boost his confidence.

He didn't even make an effort.

Didn't talk to anybody.
And he was so closed off

and it was like when he was
sitting there,

you can just tell he's just
thinking these thoughts

in his head the entire time.
He's just talking to himself.

I came on to 4chan that day.

People in this environment
were starting to get whipped up

and they're like,
"Yeah, that's right.

You showed him who's boss."

You know, he, he went out there.

He stood up for being,
you know, the virgin with rage.

The very first picture
of Elliott Rodger that I saved

was a picture of this sort of

semi-transparent sobbing woman,

and then like three
or four Pepes with guns.

It was like one
of the very first ones

that like took Elliott
and put it into like a,

sort of like a context.

People started drawing Pepes

riding around in BMWs
with Elliot Rodger.

Yeah, I kind of get a little
bit energized by it, you know.

And it was kind of this, like,

maybe society does need
to get flipped on its head.

Hi, Elliot Rodger.

I don't
condone violence, you know.

I'm not a violence condoner.

But, he set me off into the path

that made me who I am today,

and I have to acknowledge that.

On 4chan, you see something
totally new called the...

uh, Beta Male Uprising,

the Beta Uprising.

- -The idea would be that,

all of them would

run out of their mom's basements

and start shooting people.

And of course, like, it's a way
of making fun of themselves.

It's always coded
in guarded irony.

But of course, behind the irony
is the seriousness.

Why are you talking about that?

It's because that's an issue
that resonates with you.

Uprise.

Welcome to your demise.

Pepe then becomes the symbol.

You see him holding the gun.

It's the classic response
from 4chan,

which is like
the most nihilistic

and despairing, cynical right

where anyone wants
to kill themselves

or do something awful,
or do something anti-social,

making that screen illusion
real in some way.

Um, they're like,
"Yeah. Go for it."

Philadelphia area colleges

have all warned students
to be extra cautious tomorrow

This is the threat that was
posted on 4chan,

a message board
where everyone is anonymous.

It was posted last Friday,

the day after
the shooting in Oregon.

It phrases the gunman

as a fellow member of
the Beta Rebellion.

The post on 4chan

uses a profile picture
of what appears to be

the Grinch in a mask,
holding a gun.

That same picture
was used in a post

the day before
the Oregon massacre.

You see, it's not just

the memes generate the violence.

It's that the violence
becomes a meme.

But, it's just a joke.

Right? It's just a stupid frog.

If you had had
a victory over the normies,

you know, striking back
at the oppressors,

it was seen as too enthusiastic
to post like a big, you know...

grinning, laughing,
you know, ha-ha-ha.

So when this smug Pepe came out,
it was groundbreaking.

Like in a way that is
maybe hard to explain.

It was the most succinct,

perfect face.

Then the, uh, you know,
the, the hand up.

It had the perfect

silly look to it.

You know, crude...

like holding back laughter,

but enjoying the suffering
of others.

It was like the perfect
trolling accessory.

The way he's redrawn

with his like thumb up like
this, like really smug...

- Yeah.
- It's like...

that tone is so ugly.

It's used to imply like...

being above

a conversation that people
are trying to have

about kindness.

Trump was sort of seen
as like the personification

of the smug Pepe meme.

When he was announcing
that he was going to run,

every news story is, you know,
they don't like him.

People in his own party,
they don't like him.

And people in the other party,
they really don't like him.

And it was like,
"Oh, this is perfect."

He's making everybody upset.

A really interesting time
in 4chan

is Trump's initial announcement

that he is
running for president.

If you look at
the 4chan threads,

before Trump's speech,

it was fairly skeptical.

But then they saw

a lot of these things in
his rhetoric that they like.

They saw nationalism.

They saw white nationalism.

And almost immediately
you'll see people being like,

can we get a Pepe
with Donald Trump hair.

I want to start
circulating this.

And that happened,
that's within hours.

I think that
President Trump is...

a real life version of Pepe,

in the ability to illicit

a reaction and to get attention

and to express and to capture
peoples' hopes and fears.

I was formerly the
Director of Strategy and Data

for the Trump campaign,

so I know as much, if not more
about how to use voter data

than anybody else
in the country.

During the campaign,

there was an effort by 4chan

to get other people
to support the president

by creating memes.

And then sharing them

to say, normies,

to try to motivate them
to support President Trump.

The inside terminology

for this was
"The Great Meme War."

It gave people who had never
really been involved

in politics before

a way in.

The best memes that you see,

the most effective ones,

are just some person
who has no power at all.

They have no influence,
they have no money,

they have no connections.

But if they can make
one good meme,

they can take off and go viral.

Then when you hypercharge it

by having
the president retweet it,

you felt like you were part
of this rebel group,

this insurgency

that was completely
unpredictable and from

where no one would have
ever expected it.

How does an image like this

end up on Donald Trump's
Twitter account?

4chan supported Trump
for a mix of reasons.

Some of it I think
was this nihilistic idea

that Trump was a wrecking ball.

And that they wanted
to embarrass people

by electing him.

And so when Trump
retweeted himself

depicted as Pepe,

it was like
this watershed moment.

This is Donald Trump co-opting the idea

of himself, uh,
sort of substituted as Pepe.

It was so transgressive,

so anti-PC.

To most of the voters out there,
it just seemed kind of odd.

But, if you were
part of the community

that has been spending years
and years, and years

using Pepe,

suddenly,
a little antenna goes up

and you pick up a signal
and say, "Wow.

Maybe this guy's right for us."

There's always magic going on

in any political campaign.

And so...

what happened when Pepe the Frog
suddenly became, um,

in effect Donald Trump's
invisible running mate...

was that a magical force
had entered the picture

and it was a wild card.

A meme can become the anchor

or the seed, if you will,

around which a group of
like-minded people can gather

and toward which
they can focus their energy.

That's a basic tool
of meme magic.

And that's one of the things
we saw during the 2016 Election.

The way that magic
was used on the Chans was

they focused on building up
a series of hypersigils,

-of images like Pepe the Frog.

And piled into those images,

all of their hopes and
all of their energy,

their emotional focus

of seeing Donald Trump
in the White House.

You ended up with a lot of
people on the Chans just going,

"Wow, I could do this."

It's not Republicanism
as we have known it.

These are racist ideas,
race baiting ideas.

Anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant,

anti-women. All key tenants
making up the emerging

racist ideology

known as the alt-right.

Pepe!

Now, alt-right is short for
alternative-right.

The Wall Street Journal
describes it

as a loose and racist ideology

known as the alt-right.

Pepe!

Pepe!

And, and to most people,

that was a totally inexplicable
thing at the moment.

It must be totally random.

To the white supremacist
anti-Semitic

neo-Nazi right in this country,

that was a moment of triumph.

Suddenly, Pepe the meme,
the most...

silliest piece of
meaningless culture,

was sort of like
passing through the screen.

It was kinda like
the dream of the troll,

making the Internet real.

It was becoming like,

you know, weird to, like,
have this tattoo.

You're here
to get me involved in your...

nightmare world?

-What's good?

-We're here to exploit you.

Is this... this better be
about Landwolf.

Duck your head.

Please don't kick my cat.

If, if you can help it.

That... I think it's funny
that, like...

that Chris got the Pepe tattooed
on his arm and he was like,

- "I have to hide it now."

"Somebody at Subway thought
I was a white power dude."

-Yeah. Everybody...

everybody's actually very...

everybody's
very excited about Pepe.

They're like, "Oh wow,
Pepe's this awesome meme, dude."

He rules.

- Yeah.
- "Wow, you made Pepe?"

I was like all proud of myself,
strutting down the street,

-you know.

Now people
just throw rocks at you.

"That's the guy
who created Pepe!"

-Yeah. -You're not strutting

- anymore, are ya? Sicko!
- No, I'm not.

Now I'm, now I'm like

just slithering down the street

in a pool of my own waste
or something.

- Whoa, like a...
- Yeah.

- Like a slug lord.
- Like a...

Just a... a slurping slimeball.

But I really do feel like

this would only happen to you.

I interviewed Matt Furie in September 2016

with The Atlantic.

My impression of Furie was that
he was very well intentioned,

but somewhat naive about
the extent to which

this symbol had been
appropriated by the far right.

Pepe is a white nationalist symbol...

...increasingly being used

by white supremacists...

It's something of a mascot
by the alt-right.

Defining the alt-right
is somewhat easier these days.

But around 2016,

it encompassed a lot of people

who were ideologically
opposed to the left

but not necessarily united
on every issue.

And then you've got people
like Richard Spencer

who are overt
white nationalists.

But the alt-right Pepe
allows them

to pretend that they're kidding.

They're not kidding.

What they want is for you to be

both scared by the threat

and be mocked for being scared
in the first place.

The point is to cause that
kind of psychic anguish

and then they draw a great deal
of pleasure from that.

Basically alt-right
is a big tent

or rather a big rock

under which creeps
a diverse assortment of

paleo conservatives,
men's rights misogynists...

I remember I went to
a taping of Sam Bee.

And she had a segment about
Pepe the Frog.

And I got to meet her
after the taping.

And good
old-fashioned neo-Nazis.

And I was like, "You know,

Pepe was actually created by
a friend of mine

and he's a really sweet artist

and, and it doesn't mean
this thing that it,

it transformed into,

and she was just,
sort of like, "Okay."

The alt-right's use of Pepe
just drowned out

any other visual interpretation,

you know, Trump's former
campaign chair Steve Bannon said

the Democrats
are not the opposition party,

the media
is the opposition party

and how do you beat the media?

You flood the zone with shit.

Well, these people
are flooding the zone with shit

so that you don't know
what's real or what's not.

I mean quite frankly
I've been to the events.

It wasn't even real.

Literally,
they're just Jewish actors.

A lot of the KKK guys
with their hats off

literally looks like
the cast of Seinfeld...

A conspiracy theorist
like Alex Jones

appeals to Trump because

one of Trump's
major political tools

is forcing people to reject
objective reality

in favor of
his version of reality.

Well, Donald Trump,
let me say this.

You are the leading presidential
frontrunner

with the Republicans

gaining a huge lead as you don't
back down, but I got to just...

And the point of it is to
obliterate objective truth.

Fake news!

Fuck CNN, fuck CNN!

Trump frames his language

in terms of winners and losers.

I said are you sick
of fucking winning?

No!

What happens
when that mindset is adopted

by people on the bottom?

Instead of thinking of society

so like where everyone
is sort of equal

and we're all
lifting ourselves up together,

you think the world
is a hierarchy

and the only way you're
going to get to the top

is by displacing someone else.

Then you start
getting these ideas like,

"Well, maybe I'm at the bottom

because this group of people
has snuck their way to the top."

They probably cheated their way
up there.

And so then you get
these elaborate

conspiracies about like,

"Oh, well, the, the Jews run
the media.

Uh, "Immigrants,
they're the problem."

Build a wall! Build a wall!

Fuck those dirty beaners.
Build a wall.

We're not giving in.
We're not going away.

Have we not given them

a big giant red, white,
and blue middle finger?

So, then
it started to get strange.

Somebody on the Chans,
nobody knows who,

found an ancient Egyptian
frog god

whose name was Kek.

He looked like
an anthropomorphic figure

with a frog's head
rather like Pepe.

Obviously that had to be shared

and... the Chans went ape.

The reason why this caught on

is that Kek is a bit
of gamer slang.

For complicated reasons,
where we say "ha-ha-ha,"

in certain gaming circles,
you say "kek-kek-kek."

Trumpsters taking the hill.

The nation of Kek.

Kekistan taking the hill.

They came up
with this idea of Kekistan,

of a kind of promised land
for Pepes.

And anytime you have these ideas

of ethnic homelands

and tribalist blood and soil,

it automatically seems to
cluster in

with the worst exercises
in human depravity.

All you need to do is just
put on the mask.

Put on the mask.

There had been rumors
flying on the Chans

that Hillary Clinton was
actually seriously ill.

And a great many chaos magicians

were focusing their magical work
on one goal

which is making her collapse
in public.

There's a thing
that people talk about

in occult circles
called the TSW moment.

A TSW, the polite version is
This Stuff Works.

The Chans
went through their TSW moment.

Hillary Clinton collapsed

and had to be hauled into
the SUV by other people.

I honestly think at that point

if Donald Trump
had asked the habituated Chans

to walk into the ocean,

they would have done it.

You know,
to just be grossly generalistic,

you could put
half of Trump's supporters

into what I call
the basket of deplorables.

-Right?

The racist, sexist,

homophobic, xenophobic,

-Islamophobic...

Hillary Clinton
then released an explainer

explaining that Pepe
was a hate symbol

and that he symbolized
the alt-right

and through these associations,

it really made Trump
look like a neo-Nazi.

But it made her also look
a little clueless, right.

The idea that she was
denouncing a cartoon frog

was delightful to 4chan,

delightful to the alt-right.

It was the best thing

that could have happened
for them.

It certainly galvanized people

who thought,
"Hey, I really dig Pepe."

And she just
launched an attack on me

and called me a Nazi.

Ladies and gentlemen,
the battle has just begun.

And we are ready.

And I think that that
just kind of solidified it.

Now once you start
deeming something

as a hate symbol,

It does, kind of, become that.

A popular cartoon character
turned Internet meme,

Pepe the frog, has been added to

the Anti-Defamation League's
database of hate symbols

In a press release, the organization wrote,

the character had been, quote,

"Used by haters on social media

to suggest racist,
anti-Semitic or other bigoted notions

as a hate symbol."

Matt's name
was in the description

about it on the website.

- -It's like a nightmare.

He's thinking, "I've worked
my whole life

as an artist

and now I'm gonna be lumped in

with this weird new swastika.

Matt Furie put out a statement

to the Associated Press.
He said that he was horrified

to see his creation
become a mascot

for the alt-right
fringe movement.

I don't want to
be associated with this.

You know, I'm, like, trying
to write children's books.

The nature of the media
and politics and stuff that

I've been trying to escape
from my entire life.

I don't give a shit
about any of that stuff.

Then I got pulled into it
just because...

I'm on a hate symbol
database list now

and it pissed me off.

As the news was going on
that this Internet frog

has been marked
as like a hate symbol,

that's when I got
the phone call from our buyer.

They pulled it right away.

So, we have about 3,000 items

that were going to go
into 580 stores across the U.S.

and now it's in my garage. So...

These were probably,
like, $15 each to make.

If you think of 15 times 3,000,

like, it's pretty crazy.

- Yeah it's 45,000 dollars.
- Yup.

We didn't want
to give it to Goodwill.

We didn't want
to sell it ourselves

because we're afraid...

white supremacists
would wear it and then...

What is that worth versus
putting out a hate symbol?

And I'm sure you feel
the same way.

A lot of the merchandise
ended up having to be destroyed.

Yeah, now,
that's kind of the least

- of my worries.
- I know.

He was a dummy.

He just kinda let his
character get away from him

and now, this shit happened.

Matt is just like most of us,
a poor, cartooning loser.

I was suggesting that he sue
the Anti-Defamation League

for defamation.

I'm just trying to be positive.

Not everybody has a platform
to talk about this kinda stuff.

I teamed up with the ADL

to just try to offer people
some creative solutions.

-Hi, everybody.

Um...

So what we're trying to do now

is to start
a Save Pepe campaign.

-And uh...

I invite everybody

to draw their own
peaceful version of Pepe

and share it on social media
with the hashtag "savepepe."

Can we turn something

that's become a recognized
hate symbol

into a recognized love symbol?

It was really funny,
but it was also really lovely.

- Like I tweeted about it. I...
- Yeah.

- I tried to help. I, like...
- Yeah. I drew a Pepe.

Part of the Save Pepe campaign.

I'm like, damn, he's kind of
going through a situation

that isn't right
and I want to help him out.

Does that look like Pepe?

I've never drawn Pepe before,

but I figured I'm going to do
whatever I can to help

because I'm such
a big fan of Matt's, and...

So, I'm butchering
Pepe here, but...

something like that.

In Matt's work,

I can feel his love
for nature and the universe.

I was like, "Oh, yeah,
Matt's my buddy, you know.

I like Pepe, so, I just
kind of, like, you know...

I made a Peace Frog Pepe,
you know.

Does that look like Pepe?

It's getting less
and less like Pepe.

I've been working on
it for about a month now

and I've gotten
about 500 and counting

brand new peace Pepes.

My goal with this
is to eventually start something

that I'd like to call
the Peace Pepe Database of Love.

My whole thing is
just to focus on positive

and just keep being creative.

The attempt by Matt Furie

to wrest control over Pepe,

it seems like he understands
the Internet

about as well
as Hillary Clinton does.

Maybe if the original artwork
wasn't so pedestrian and basic

that an eight year old
can draw Pepe.

A scribbling
that was improved upon by others

that was given meaning
that it never had before,

I would just
encourage Matt to...

you know, just be glad
to have been a small part

of a very big thing.

Art is supposed to be
therapeutic, so, uh...

before Trump got elected,

I just did this kind of, like,
nightmare scenario of Pepe,

like slowly morphing
into Donald Trump

and then into a monster
and then,

uh, being trapped inside
the monster's mouth,

as you can see, and, uh...

It's like a nuclear war.

This is the new American moment.

This is like
Martin-Luther-King-I-have-a-dream speech.

It's like Washington
crossing the Delaware

♪ We are the champions

We were all ecstatic.

Donald Trump, he
wasn't supposed to be there.

We all felt, like,

the meming had played a part
in the election.

The Internet's joke
kind of came to fruition.

The chaotic scene just
blocks outside the secure

of the inauguration
and parade routes.

-What?

It's Pepe.
He's become kind of a symbol...

After the election,
Matt just came to me and said,

"Hey, I'm going to draw
a comic strip with Pepe in it

and I'm going to kill him."

The Pepe thing was so
out of control at that point

and whatever Pepe meant
to all these other people

didn't mean
the same thing to me.

So I just killed him.

I just thought it'd be
funny to do a comic strip

where all the boys
are at his funeral.

♪ Your picture

♪ Is still

♪ On my wall

♪ On my wall

♪ The color

♪ Are bright

♪ Bright

- ♪ As ever

♪ The red is strong

♪ The blue will rest pure

♪ Something lasts

♪ A long time

♪ Something lasts

♪ A long time

I didn't think it'd
get noticed or anything.

I'm sure you recognize

the cartoon character
Pepe the Frog.

Well, he won't be around so much longer

because his creator
has decided to kill him off.

A carton frog died
on the Internet.

His name was Pepe.

It seemed like every time
he drew Pepe,

he would get
hounded by reporters.

- He just hated it.

When I had first seen
Matt's death of Pepe comic,

I was honestly a bit sad.

But the Pepe we see,
unfortunately,

has been so far removed
from the original...

that the Pepe Matt was killing
was his own.

The burden
of this weird Pepe shit

was starting to make me feel
anxious and weird.

Maybe it is
whatever people say it is.

Like I can't fucking control it, you know.

♪ The power that's inside

♪ Pokemon!
Gotta catch 'em all! ♪

♪ It's you and me

Owning a rare Pepe
is about being alpha.

It's about having dank,
rare Pepes nobody else has.

And it's about how do we
get to the moon in a Lambo.

Okay, let's pull it up.

I'm in these crypto forums,

and for the longest time,

these guys would talk
about Pepe Cash.

Some huge guys,

like, seven to eight figure
portfolio crypto guys.

And I look at the website,
I'm like, "What?

What the fuck
are they talking about?"

What is it?

So I actually am a Pepe Cash millionaire.

How many million is that?

Is that 363 million?

Ah, 363 million Internet Pepe.

You know, I like that.

This is when
we christened the SS Rare Pepe

which I bought with Pepe Cash
and I live on it.

If you want to explain
the rare Pepe economy,

imagine a few dozen geeks
on the Internet

came up with a way to trade
memes off 4chan

and lock them into ownership.

There are some Pepes
that are superhero knockoffs.

You know, Iron Man Pepes,
Spiderman Pepes.

Some people's heroes
are more political in nature.

Trump Pepe,

which is awesome,
because he's just like,

"Make crypto great again,
whether you like it or not."

It's much different
than comic books,

or even collectible
baseball cards

because it exists as math
on the Internet first...

and then later you can print
the physical copy of it.

This is the physical card.
This is worthless.

This is the thing that's worth

hundreds of thousands
of dollars.

So, I was going
to this digital arts conference

called Rare AF. Rare As Fuck.

Luckily for me,

they're having the world's
first rare Pepe auction.

Rare Pepe after rare Pepe

after beautiful rare Pepe
passing by

and then finally
gets to the end.

It's the ultimate rare Pepe.

The Homer Pepe.

And I'm like,
"I'm getting this thing."

Homer for 200.

- Homer!
- Two hundred.

People start placing bids.

Twenty, 30, 40,
100,000 Pepe Cash.

Two hundred thousand Pepe Cash.

- Two seventy-five.
- Two seventy.

It starts getting so crazy

and it gets
to 350,000 Pepe Cash.

Which is about
39,000 US dollars.

Three hundred fifty going once,
going twice.

- Uh-oh!
- Sold!

What inspired you
to pay 39,000 US dollars

- for a rare Pepe?
- I'm just excited about Pepe.

Okay.

So this is Homer Pepe.

Currently the world's
most valuable rare Pepe.

Now what makes
this Pepe worth so much?

It's the only one
with a misprint.

Wait a minute.
"Wait a mintue. Wait a mintue."

That's value.

You're Matt, right?

You have gainfully employed
all of us.

So, uh...
What are you guys talking about?

We're all working
the general realm of, you know,

weird online behavior
from a scientific perspective.

We have, uh,
security people from the U.S.

We have cryptographers
from the U.K.

We have systems people
from, uh, mainland Europe

and we take a large scale
analysis of data,

getting a quantitative
understanding of hate speech

throughout the web.

We had to figure out a way

to be able to measure
this stuff at large scale

and we ended up building
a system to measure memes.

Just to give you
an idea of the scale, Matt.

So we had over a billion posts

from Twitter, Reddit,
/pol/ and Gab.,

and we examined the 160 million
some odd images.

So obviously,
these weren't all Pepes,

but the scale of this data
is huge.

- This is only for a year.
- Interesting.

There's a variety
of different memes,

but there tends to be
a Pepe variant

in every single one
of these clusters. So...

You pick a random meme

and Pepe has been
inserted into it

in some way, shape or form.

In a lot of ways,
Pepe becomes an entry point

to radicalization.

That's a very scary thing
to think about.

Do you feel any
personal responsibility for...

the bad stuff
that has come out of this?

I mean, you shouldn't,

but you know,
we're humans, right?

We feel guilt for things

that we shouldn't feel
guilt for.

Um, I'm... I mean, uh,

maybe I could have been
more proactive earlier on

- to, like, try to control it.
- Yeah.

So, the question of,
"Can you get Pepe back?"

The reality is that
there is, you know,

160 million memes, essentially,
in a year, that we collected.

Not all of them
were Pepes again,

but a good chunk of them are.

That's a tough genie
to put back in the bottle.

Um, yeah. I wish you luck.

I do.

Sincerely.

So...

I try to stay positive,
you know.

But to be honest, I...

I've gotten trolled.

Somebody sent me this.

I don't take it personally

even though
I'm having my head decapitated.

It is what it is
what it is, right?

Um...

It's not like wearing
on kind of, like, my spirit.

But it's kind of wearing
on my drive to be creative.

It did manifest anxieties that
I have yet to unravel.

He just kinda
slept a lot and, uh...

You know, honestly it was
kinda like hard to talk to him.

You know, I let him know
I was there for him

and all that, but, like,

there wasn't anything
anyone could really do.

Tonight a Denton ISD assistant principal

is coming under fire for
writing a new children's book.

A book, some say,
is politically motivated.

I'm using Pepe just as
a lighthearted way

of expressing maybe some
conservative, uh, values.

If you love America,

you're going to love this book
for sure.

When Matt found out

that there was an Islamophobic
racist children's book

starring Pepe coming out
on Amazon,

he was so upset.

And that's when he kind of...
freaked out about it.

It was, like, the last straw.

It's like... It's like hell,
man. Like...

If you want to...
If you want to escape hell,

you can't ignore it.

You almost have to go
to the center of it.

It is not very often

that nerdy intellectual
property lawyers

get asked to fight
the alt-right.

But when we do, we're ready.

I have a whole team of lawyers

that are working with me
pro bono

and have really
empowered me to feel

like I do have some say
in all this.

He really wanted to prevent
the digital release of the book.

Inside it was, in fact,

a not so veiled reference
to a lot of alt-right themes.

We found out
who was publishing it

and explained that Matt Furie
owned the copyright to Pepe

and that we were prepared
to enforce his rights in court.

The Adventures of Pepe and Pede.

The electronic version
was never published.

But the issue here is,
when you shut down one person,

others pop up.

- You know,

I'm a compassionate guy
and I'm a sensitive guy.

But being able to work
with a team of lawyers

has given me strength to...

shut these assholes up.

You've been sued by a frog, bro.

Do you even know this yet?

No.

- It's all over the Internet.
- I'm surprised.

Surprise, motherfucker.
You got sued by a frog.

You've been sued
by a fucking' frog, dude.

A conspiracy frog named Pepe.

We did sell
a poster that a listener made

titled Make American Great Again

that had a bunch of images,

of symbols that were popular
during the campaign.

We talked
to our trademark lawyers

and they said,"Mr. Jones,
this is so outrageous.

It's against
the First Amendment"

It is insane.

This is cockamamie balderdash.

He was selling a poster
with Pepe on it

with a bunch of douchebags

and I just didn't want him
to sell the poster.

The problem isn't the drawing

or the making of the art,
you can do that.

It's just when
you mass produce it and sell it,

that's when it gets
into a stickier area.

He's like, "Yeah, the man's gonna stop us."

He just jacked up
the price of the poster

and then offered to sign them.

I'm trying to free
Pepe the Frog.

And I'm either going to succeed

or I'll be destroyed
in the process, but that's okay.

I actually don't know
many people on here.

- Is that Trump, too?
- Yeah.

- There's are two Trumps.
- Sounds like having two Trumps

in the same poster,
is that legal?

Well, that's Billie Joe
Armstrong from Green Day.

And there's Marsha
from The Brady Bunch.

-Billy Idol.

- Billy Idol.
- And there's Courtney Love.

A lot of times,
I'm cutting people's hair

for court
when they're in trouble so...

Yeah, I'm not into...
I'm not in any trouble at all.

Just, uh, weird situation.

Yeah, I've got this
kinda, like, a notorious,

uh, character named
Pepe the Frog.

- Have you ever heard of him?
- Yeah, I actually have.

- My kids have, too. Yeah.
- Oh, yeah?

- This guy, Pepe?
- Yeah, that guy right there.

So the guy, Matt,
do you know him?

That's me.

That who you got to go
to court with?

Oh, no, that's me. I am Matt.

- Oh, you're Matt.
- Yeah.

Oh.

I don't know who this guy is doing,
this Furie fella.

But I agreed to be deposed...

for the Pepe the Frog deal.

Sir, would you raise
your right hand to be sworn?

Do you solemnly state

the testimony
you're about to give

will be the truth,
the whole truth

- and nothing but the truth?
- I do.

I don't like the frog.
I don't like this whole thing.

But I got to stand up
for the First Amendment.

Let's say the frog is triggering
for me now.

I hate Pepe.

Video tape deposition of Matt Furie

in the matter
of Matt Furie vs. InfoWars,

and Free Speech, LLC.

So from 2001 to 2007,

you had sort of this carefree
part-time, knucklehead life.

I still have that.

Excellent.

And what did you do to prepare
for today's deposition?

Really nothing.

So how did you pick
the name Pepe the Frog?

It sounded like, um, "peepee."

To go peepee.

So it is a cartoon frog, right?

Yes, it's a cartoon frog.

It has round lips, right?

I wouldn't call that round lips.

- Okay. Uh...
- More tubular.

Tubular lips.

I thought I had some
kind of like Zen-like grip.

He kinda did the good cop,
bad cop thing on me.

He was like, "So you like
Beavis and Butthead"?

Do you watch Ren and Stimpy?

Yes.

But then,
he was all kind of like...

"Let's get 'em."

Forty-nine. This is a fun one.

Hold that up
and tell us what's 49?

Um, yeah, it's an allegory
on the direction nature's going

from my perspective.

Uh, excuse me.
The second to last page.

- Page 20.
- I'm sorry.

I worked out this morning.

It's just coincidental
that they look alike?

Absolutely.

An original character
that's based on a hot dog man.

Part man, part hot dog.

It's clear what all this is.

So people can say Jones is using
a white supremacist symbol

when it's not.

It's a way of saying
I'm a white supremacist.

It's a way of defaming me...

and acting like I stole
something all at the same time.

It's just... god! Evil!

That's just evil!

Is that Big Bird?

Yes.

Thirty-one is not Grimace?

No.

So those aren't
derivations of the Hamburglar?

- Oh, these guys?
- Yes.

-Do you mean Mayor McCheese?

And you got no license
to put that up.

-When I was in sixth grade,

I did not attain the license
to draw this stuff.

You know, I went to the bathroom
at one point

and he's taking a piss, too,
and he's like, uh...

"So I guess this is where
all the dicks hang out."

And I was like,
"Ha ha, that's funny.

And also awkward
that I got my dick in my hand

and we're talking
right now and..."

And then, shortly after that,

he's just
fucking screaming at me.

We're suing, uh, Alex Jones...

because he...

That's not the question
I asked you.

Oh.

Answer the question I asked you.

It... It...

twisted my noodles for a while
and I, like...

You know when you, like,
say something in passing

to somebody else
and it's like...

you wish you would've said
something else.

This was like four hours of concentrated...

me wishing I would have said
something else.

It's not
a comfortable situation.

Dude, it sucked. It was hard.

From my point of view,
this is a direct copy.

So all of your references before

are just references.

But this one is what,
traced, you mean?

Yeah.

Why do you suppose Pepe
looks happy in that picture?

Pepe's kinda like a mirror.

So the way that users online
would use Pepe

is a reflection of...

themselves, to an extent.

That's my...
interpretation of it.

No further questions.

I have nothing else here either.

Thank you for your time.

This marks the end of the video
tape deposition of Alex Jones.

This marks the end of the video
tape deposition of Alex Jones.

Good luck.

We're going off record
and the time is 13:00 even.

Let's try to find
a little round...

- Oh!
- Oh, there it is.

- There.
- So we need two dark green ones.

Okay.

It took me weeks
to detangle my mind

after all this legal stuff.

That's what I signed up for,
you know.

It's not going
to be easy, but...

but I'm willing to go
the distance with this shit.

♪ And he hops and hops

♪ Pepe, watch out
And he hops and hops ♪

♪ Pepe, do stop

- ♪ And he hops and hops

♪ You make me dizzy

♪ You make me dizzy

♪ I say, Pepe, come here

- Yeah.
- ♪ And he hops and hops

♪ Pepe, watch out

Everybody's
saying congratulations.

"A sparkle of good news
in these troubling times."

This was actually
going to trial.

And then Louis was just, like,

"Oh, surprisingly
they want to settle."

We were confident we
were gonna prevail at trial.

And InfoWars gave up.

It just went live
on InfoWars.com.

InfoWars settles
Pepe the Frog lawsuit.

Pays tiny settlement
to creator Matt Furie.

This amount...

It's a bar tab
at a topless club, you know,

for one good night, so...

-So, what the heck.

This is more than I've ever made
on theBoy's Club comic books.

So, it just, kind of...
To put it into context, like,

Alex Jones is like...

"Hey, we got away
with barely paying anything."

But it's all...
it's all relative.

This is a big deal to show
what these bullies are up to

and what happens
when you stand up to them.

At the end of the day,
he's just...

selling a bunch of bad ideas,
bad supplements,

in a bad attitude.

It's just a business.

Without you buying
the videos and the books

and the supplements,

we couldn't put on
one hell of a junkyard dog fight

against these bastards.

This case against InfoWars

was the latest
in a string of successes.

We went after Richard Spencer.

Uh, we went after Baked Alaska.

We went after the Daily Stormer,
a neo-Nazi website.

We have successfully enforced
Matt's copyrights in Pepe

against somewhere between 75
and 100 different entities

in connection with images
or language of hate.

And this is beginning
to turn the narrative

of Pepe back around.

This guys are, kind of,
like, messing with reality.

Amplifying negativity
or normalizing negativity.

And I'm doing everything I can
in my power

to change the course
of this thing.

And I think removing Pepe
from the hate symbol list,

it would be a win for...

peace.

With all these legal steps
that I'm taking,

everything I've been doing
up until now,

my goal is to get it off
the hate symbol database.

To me, it's not a symbol.

It's a character, you know.

It's the character,

but he's adorned with different
symbols, you know.

And they're pretty
extreme stuff.

I mean, yeah, you know.

It's tough, right? Having it
on the hate symbols database,

we have found
to be really useful

for those who are trying
to understand

this barrage of symbols
that is being thrown at them

whether it's a frog, a meme,
or a hand gesture.

- Mm-hmm.
- It's complicated.

Well, yeah, it is complicated

because I think
with Pepe on the list,

it's seen more as a win for,
you know,

the so called alt-right
or these others

because now
they have that symbol.

You know, this is going to be
a lifelong journey for me

'cause I'm going to be entangled
with this character forever.

But what would be the impact
of removing it?

Most of these people
are creating these images

and are going to keep turning
these things out.

Your bottomline request...

It's really not going
to solve the issue.

It's not about this cartoon
being on the hate symbols list.

And it sucks!

- All right, man.
- Thanks a lot.

- Yeah, thank you.
- Good luck.

I don't want the narrative

to be like I'm victimized here.

People have to deal
with horror on a daily level.

Let's work together, you know.

Let's uh... let's uh...

figure this shit out,
'cause, uh...

it's not getting any better,
you know.

All of the accounts
of what happened to me

and my family over the years
are enormous in scale

and historically rooted
in a legacy of white supremacy.

♪ This little light of mine

♪ I'm gonna let it shine

Why?
Why are you being provocative?

I like trolling people.
It's fun.

You do it for fun.

Yeah, it's fun.

The aesthetics and ideals

that extremists
are promoting online

with their use of Pepe the Frog

are now bleeding completely

into what you would otherwise
describe as regular people.

Yeah, go ahead and video me now.

I'm videoing you too,
motherfucker.

You know what's coming
to you people, right?

You know Trump
is just the beginning.

You bearded monkeys
have no place in America.

The ideology is premised

on justifying violence
towards vulnerable people.

USA! USA!

And when that seeps
into the beliefs

of regular Americans,

you're heading
for some place very bad.

You can't put the genie
back in the bottle,

but you can send it
somewhere else.

To actually change the narrative
it would be necessary

to take the frog, to take Pepe,

and do something very different
with him.

Something that could develop...

a meme of its own.

Suddenly, out of nowhere,
Pepe is being used in Hong Kong

as a symbol of freedom,
democracy, and youth protest.

I was surprised
as much as anyone.

This is
the newer version of him.

He is wearing a hard hat

and he's wearing
the outfit of the protesters.

It was like a way
to resist authoritarianism.

Oh, he was crying
from the tear gas.

Pepe is now
being spray painted on walls

as a symbol of hope.

Like when does that
actually happened in history?

You see it in movies
all the time.

Like, "This is the symbol
we're all gonna rally behind."

Yeah, this never happens
in reality,

except now it happened to Pepe.

Pepe beams in everyone's brain

this idea of, like,
the every man.

As you grow up,
you realize that, in fact,

you can affect the world,

and you can use a small lever

to actually move
a great amount of weight.

That's the power
that Pepe has, right? Like...

"Oh, what's more worthless
than cartoons?"

But like, "What's more powerful
than Mickey Mouse?"

Right? Like...

One of the most powerful things
you can do

is create an iconic cartoon.

In a lot
of traditional societies,

it was very standard
to look for omens.

Signs, strange portents,
things that were not expected

that suddenly came
out of the blue.

Because that was a warning

something was shifting
in society,

something had gone wrong,

or there was something building

that you need to know about
before it arrived.

Pepe the frog is an omen.

We need to listen

because it's not going
to go away...

until we hear the message
that it has to say.

Nowadays,
I've just been thinking

about this concept of a spiral.

Life unfolding in this kind
of spirally nature.

So, I've been drawing
in more kind of circular ways.

I think that there is kind of
a collective consciousness

of darkness and light.

And the only thing
that seems true to me

is that everything
is going to change.

Like, Trump is not going
to always be the president.

You know, Planet Earth isn't
always gonna have people on it.

You know, who knows?

The positive notion of Pepe

is the possibility
that you can change again.

Hard core happy place.

You got to go hardcore happy.

I still like drawing him.

I go through waves, like,

I think last time
I talked to you, Arthur,

I was sick of him.

But now,
I like drawing him again.

Subtitles Diego Moraes(oakislandtk)
www.opensubtitles.org