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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:28,725 --> 00:00:31,116 You know, I grew up in country like this. 2 00:00:31,295 --> 00:00:34,110 My dad and I were riding our horses up to these amazing... 3 00:00:34,165 --> 00:00:35,842 high mountain lakes. 4 00:00:35,928 --> 00:00:40,578 We'd ride back in to some pretty remote wilderness areas with... 5 00:00:40,664 --> 00:00:44,399 incredible streams, and meadows, and, and wildlife. 6 00:00:44,530 --> 00:00:46,258 I love it here. 7 00:00:49,366 --> 00:00:50,642 Look at this canyon. 8 00:00:50,689 --> 00:00:52,954 It reminds me of the Grand Canyon. 9 00:00:52,993 --> 00:00:54,594 You got this old stream. 10 00:00:54,629 --> 00:00:57,019 You got these steep canyon walls. 11 00:00:57,246 --> 00:00:58,838 How long do you suppose it would take 12 00:00:58,863 --> 00:01:00,543 for a stream this small 13 00:01:00,668 --> 00:01:02,504 to remove this much material 14 00:01:02,566 --> 00:01:05,131 and cut the canyon this deep? 15 00:01:06,599 --> 00:01:08,295 This rock has a story. 16 00:01:08,389 --> 00:01:10,928 Just like I do and just like you do. 17 00:01:11,029 --> 00:01:12,975 It came from somewhere. 18 00:01:13,092 --> 00:01:15,951 A lot of these rocks have been dated to be 19 00:01:15,998 --> 00:01:19,639 350,000 years old, up to 2 million. 20 00:01:19,769 --> 00:01:21,623 That is pretty old. 21 00:01:22,193 --> 00:01:24,584 But, it might surprise you to know 22 00:01:24,631 --> 00:01:27,936 that all the geological formations that we see here, 23 00:01:27,990 --> 00:01:29,334 the cannons, 24 00:01:29,569 --> 00:01:32,115 the layers, even the plants, 25 00:01:32,326 --> 00:01:34,217 are younger than I am. 26 00:01:34,490 --> 00:01:36,317 When I was born, there was nothing here, 27 00:01:36,342 --> 00:01:37,896 but the vast forest, 28 00:01:37,944 --> 00:01:41,576 hundreds of feet below where we're standing right now. 29 00:01:42,214 --> 00:01:44,224 In fact, before 1980, 30 00:01:44,328 --> 00:01:46,951 most people had never even heard 31 00:01:47,029 --> 00:01:48,826 of Mount Saint Helens. 32 00:01:53,626 --> 00:01:56,297 It was in that year, on May 18th 33 00:01:56,336 --> 00:01:58,915 that molten rock created a steam blast 34 00:01:58,940 --> 00:02:02,227 with the force of 20 million tons of TNT. 35 00:02:02,282 --> 00:02:05,868 Avalanche debris and other flows of the eruption 36 00:02:05,922 --> 00:02:08,791 lay down all of those layers rapidly 37 00:02:08,869 --> 00:02:11,221 up to 600 feet thick. 38 00:02:11,457 --> 00:02:12,863 A couple of years later, 39 00:02:12,903 --> 00:02:15,161 uh, there were some more volcanic activity 40 00:02:15,199 --> 00:02:17,051 that created a mudflow 41 00:02:17,137 --> 00:02:19,551 that cut out this entire canyon. 42 00:02:19,754 --> 00:02:23,223 It also cut through deep bedrock, 43 00:02:23,325 --> 00:02:25,426 all in a couple of days. 44 00:02:25,809 --> 00:02:27,129 Isn't it amazing, 45 00:02:27,192 --> 00:02:30,637 what a little bit of information from the past can do 46 00:02:30,754 --> 00:02:32,480 to help change your view 47 00:02:32,534 --> 00:02:35,644 of the present and the present world around you? 48 00:02:36,387 --> 00:02:40,504 There're a lot of assumptions made by a lot of people, 49 00:02:40,848 --> 00:02:44,215 about the history of the Earth around us. 50 00:02:44,652 --> 00:02:46,785 The question is, how do those assumptions 51 00:02:46,816 --> 00:02:50,230 affect how we view the history? 52 00:02:50,512 --> 00:02:52,324 But more importantly, 53 00:02:52,481 --> 00:02:55,527 how do they play in how we view science 54 00:02:55,637 --> 00:02:57,105 and the Bible? 55 00:02:57,807 --> 00:03:01,691 Did God create the world in a few days 56 00:03:01,957 --> 00:03:04,465 or billions of years? 57 00:03:04,661 --> 00:03:07,457 Is humanity descended from apes? 58 00:03:07,652 --> 00:03:11,543 Or did God created us instantly, in his image? 59 00:03:11,885 --> 00:03:15,816 Was there a global flood that destroyed the Earth? 60 00:03:16,098 --> 00:03:18,059 Or is that a myth? 61 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:19,887 In other words, 62 00:03:20,052 --> 00:03:22,676 is Genesis history? 63 00:03:59,633 --> 00:04:01,501 When we think about the history of the Earth, 64 00:04:01,532 --> 00:04:03,829 there are a lot things we need to consider. 65 00:04:03,871 --> 00:04:07,422 But one of the most fascinating is the account of the Flood. 66 00:04:07,515 --> 00:04:10,297 Was the whole Earth covered with water? 67 00:04:10,424 --> 00:04:13,758 Genesis says the waters prevailed so mildly on the Earth 68 00:04:13,790 --> 00:04:17,234 that all the high mountains in the whole heaven were covered. 69 00:04:17,315 --> 00:04:19,377 So if the Flood was truly global, 70 00:04:19,455 --> 00:04:21,917 wouldn't there be a lot of evidence? 71 00:04:22,682 --> 00:04:25,337 I had heard of a scientist who has spent over 40 years 72 00:04:25,362 --> 00:04:26,979 studying this question. 73 00:04:27,091 --> 00:04:29,479 When I spoke with him, he said he had a great place 74 00:04:29,511 --> 00:04:32,315 where we could see evidence for the global Flood. 75 00:04:35,245 --> 00:04:37,921 Steve, I got to admit, I, I've been here several times 76 00:04:37,948 --> 00:04:40,511 but every time I come here, it is breathtaking. 77 00:04:40,565 --> 00:04:42,175 Uh, besides being at home, 78 00:04:42,206 --> 00:04:43,995 - our Grand Canyon is my favorite - Yeah. 79 00:04:44,034 --> 00:04:45,284 - place on Earth. - Yeah. 80 00:04:45,542 --> 00:04:48,292 So, Steve, tell me, what, what do you see here? 81 00:04:48,323 --> 00:04:49,731 When we look at the Grand Canyon, 82 00:04:49,770 --> 00:04:53,997 we see the inside story to the ground beneath our feet. 83 00:04:54,083 --> 00:04:56,731 And we kind of have a layered cake here, don't we? 84 00:04:56,786 --> 00:04:58,083 Of Strata 85 00:04:58,131 --> 00:05:01,350 that have been eroded for our benefit 86 00:05:01,374 --> 00:05:04,327 to see the inside structure of the Earth. 87 00:05:04,428 --> 00:05:07,733 These same layers are also in Colorado. 88 00:05:07,817 --> 00:05:10,561 Well, also in Illinois, also in Pennsylvania. 89 00:05:10,586 --> 00:05:13,389 So when you say, sedimentary strata, 90 00:05:13,436 --> 00:05:15,244 you're talking about the layers that we see? 91 00:05:15,276 --> 00:05:18,476 Yes. So the lowest layers are formed first. 92 00:05:18,538 --> 00:05:21,853 Little sediment grains that were mixed, 93 00:05:21,884 --> 00:05:25,790 separated, and flowed in here from different directions 94 00:05:25,853 --> 00:05:28,735 and accumulated one ontop of another. 95 00:05:28,829 --> 00:05:30,095 And then, of course, 96 00:05:30,142 --> 00:05:32,923 naturally, they convert to rock. 97 00:05:32,985 --> 00:05:35,853 So you're saying that the solid ground we're standing on right now 98 00:05:35,907 --> 00:05:37,837 if we went back in its history, 99 00:05:37,884 --> 00:05:39,493 - it'd be liquid? - Yes. 100 00:05:39,540 --> 00:05:42,493 So the ocean is doing some amazing things 101 00:05:42,518 --> 00:05:45,426 and water of, of incredible power 102 00:05:45,481 --> 00:05:48,564 is depositing the layers we see in the canyon. 103 00:05:48,614 --> 00:05:50,786 And are there fossils in all those layers? 104 00:05:50,817 --> 00:05:53,546 There are marine fossils through all the layers. 105 00:05:53,639 --> 00:05:55,577 Uh, but the standard explanation is, 106 00:05:55,609 --> 00:05:59,006 there were 17 different advances and retreats 107 00:05:59,069 --> 00:06:02,514 of the ocean over the north American continent, 108 00:06:02,561 --> 00:06:05,725 and it was extended over hundreds of millions of years. 109 00:06:05,772 --> 00:06:08,155 And what is the evidence that you see here 110 00:06:08,186 --> 00:06:10,467 that would say that doesn't seem to make sense? 111 00:06:10,522 --> 00:06:14,751 The 4,000 feet of flat line strata in the canyon are flat. 112 00:06:14,790 --> 00:06:16,085 And relative to one another, 113 00:06:16,110 --> 00:06:17,938 we look in between the strata layers 114 00:06:17,977 --> 00:06:20,579 and we don't see the passage of time 115 00:06:20,642 --> 00:06:21,910 in between layers. 116 00:06:21,941 --> 00:06:22,949 You mean erosion? 117 00:06:22,980 --> 00:06:25,329 Erosion, specially, and channeling 118 00:06:25,355 --> 00:06:29,096 uh, on any great scale is not visible. 119 00:06:29,131 --> 00:06:30,886 And then we look at the strata themselves, 120 00:06:30,902 --> 00:06:33,386 they provide evidence of rapid, 121 00:06:33,457 --> 00:06:35,410 very rapid sedimentation. 122 00:06:35,464 --> 00:06:39,642 Just minutes or hours is all it's needed to make layers. 123 00:06:39,707 --> 00:06:41,621 Well, tell me about the story of these layers. 124 00:06:41,646 --> 00:06:42,980 I mean, how did they get here? 125 00:06:43,011 --> 00:06:44,871 "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, 126 00:06:44,902 --> 00:06:47,371 from the second month of the seventeenth day of the month, 127 00:06:47,402 --> 00:06:50,920 the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, 128 00:06:50,974 --> 00:06:52,958 and the windows of heaven were opened." 129 00:06:52,997 --> 00:06:56,796 My understanding is the ocean floor upheaval occurred, 130 00:06:56,858 --> 00:06:58,968 - some type of magma or... - Uh-huh. 131 00:06:59,030 --> 00:07:01,866 earthquake propelled the oceans over the continent. 132 00:07:01,897 --> 00:07:03,272 So that's why we get 133 00:07:03,304 --> 00:07:06,638 uh, these marine fossils in these layers? 134 00:07:06,663 --> 00:07:08,101 Yes. And we have six months 135 00:07:08,132 --> 00:07:10,171 the waters prevailed upon the earth. 136 00:07:10,218 --> 00:07:13,676 Another seven months or so for the water to subside. 137 00:07:13,701 --> 00:07:17,447 The 4,000 feet of strata probably represent the early 138 00:07:17,486 --> 00:07:19,557 and middle part of the global Flood 139 00:07:19,592 --> 00:07:21,156 right here in the Grand Canyon. 140 00:07:21,181 --> 00:07:22,496 We have other strata 141 00:07:22,543 --> 00:07:24,746 locally in this Grand Canyon region. 142 00:07:24,777 --> 00:07:27,050 That's called "The Grand Staircase". 143 00:07:27,089 --> 00:07:31,097 We have about 10,000 feet, two miles thick of strata 144 00:07:31,136 --> 00:07:33,511 - on top of the Grand Canyon. - Higher than where we are. 145 00:07:33,550 --> 00:07:35,308 Higher than where we are, 146 00:07:35,363 --> 00:07:36,816 now represents uh, 147 00:07:36,863 --> 00:07:40,834 the later stages of the Flood and the retreat of the flood water. 148 00:07:40,869 --> 00:07:44,215 This surface was beveled by the retreat of flood waters. 149 00:07:44,269 --> 00:07:48,059 And as the flood retreated into the newly formed ocean basins, 150 00:07:48,113 --> 00:07:51,051 then the continents probably uplifted 151 00:07:51,082 --> 00:07:54,021 and the Ark, of course, was landed 152 00:07:54,092 --> 00:07:56,732 in high country in the Middle East. 153 00:07:56,802 --> 00:07:58,982 Well, there are some people who say that, that... 154 00:07:59,037 --> 00:08:01,380 record is about a local flood. 155 00:08:01,482 --> 00:08:03,187 I believe it's a global flood. 156 00:08:03,212 --> 00:08:05,781 And "all the high hills or the whole heaven were covered", 157 00:08:05,813 --> 00:08:07,359 the universal statement, 158 00:08:07,406 --> 00:08:10,328 but mountains have risen since then. 159 00:08:10,406 --> 00:08:12,928 And we shouldn't measure the depth of the floodwaters 160 00:08:12,953 --> 00:08:14,961 by the present mountains of the Earth, 161 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:19,244 which largely created during the Flood and after the Flood. 162 00:08:19,315 --> 00:08:23,268 Well, the fact that we have all of these layers, um... 163 00:08:23,330 --> 00:08:26,930 would be unknown to us if we were standing on them 164 00:08:26,955 --> 00:08:28,158 you know, somewhere else, 165 00:08:28,221 --> 00:08:31,045 but they're known to us because they've been cut out. 166 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:32,455 How did that happen? 167 00:08:32,494 --> 00:08:35,861 Well, it was the story that we all learned in grammar school. 168 00:08:35,893 --> 00:08:37,635 OK, Colorado River, 169 00:08:37,674 --> 00:08:41,254 over tens of millions of years, cut the Grand Canyon. 170 00:08:41,301 --> 00:08:44,976 Most geologists have jettisoned that idea. 171 00:08:45,053 --> 00:08:47,767 It's hard to sustain a canyon like this 172 00:08:47,802 --> 00:08:50,248 for uh tens of millions of years. 173 00:08:50,287 --> 00:08:54,312 Uh, uh, you can't imagine a canyon enduring that long with erosion 174 00:08:54,337 --> 00:08:57,602 Is that because it would, eventually, the sides would have collapsed and... 175 00:08:57,656 --> 00:08:58,890 - Yes. - broken down? 176 00:08:58,968 --> 00:09:02,049 Then how in the world that we get this all carved out? 177 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,080 Well, uh, there are a lot of theories, 178 00:09:04,119 --> 00:09:06,534 and personally, I like the idea... 179 00:09:06,596 --> 00:09:08,642 of ​​catastrophic erosion 180 00:09:08,682 --> 00:09:11,324 by drainage of lakes. 181 00:09:11,394 --> 00:09:15,653 So after the flood, we have these large bodies of water, 182 00:09:15,692 --> 00:09:17,723 these lakes that are trapped. 183 00:09:17,793 --> 00:09:20,599 There is evidence of the big lake in the Painted Desert, 184 00:09:20,624 --> 00:09:22,468 - a place called "Hopi Buttes", - Hhh. 185 00:09:22,499 --> 00:09:26,944 about 500 cubic miles of water in this huge lake... 186 00:09:27,029 --> 00:09:30,787 And so the dam breaks and all of that massive amount of water 187 00:09:30,818 --> 00:09:34,709 then is now pouring out and carving this. 188 00:09:34,742 --> 00:09:38,179 Yes. And how long would it take to erode Grand Canyon? 189 00:09:38,234 --> 00:09:39,666 Maybe weeks. 190 00:09:39,737 --> 00:09:41,893 But not, uh, millions of years. 191 00:09:41,932 --> 00:09:44,783 - Time is not a magic wand... - Uh-huh. 192 00:09:44,814 --> 00:09:48,338 that solves all the geological problems of the world. 193 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,527 Jettison that way of thinking 194 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,465 about millions of years and then start thinking... 195 00:09:53,543 --> 00:09:57,090 about catastrophic processes like you see in Mount St. Helens... 196 00:09:57,154 --> 00:10:01,100 and that will help you understand Grand Canyon. 197 00:10:01,709 --> 00:10:02,959 Everywhere we looked, 198 00:10:03,006 --> 00:10:07,259 Steve showed me evidence of the incredible power of moving water. 199 00:10:07,361 --> 00:10:09,939 They quickly laid down these enormous layers, 200 00:10:09,964 --> 00:10:12,040 then quickly eroded them away. 201 00:10:12,150 --> 00:10:14,376 Steve wanted to show me where the floodwaters 202 00:10:14,407 --> 00:10:15,759 first hit the continent. 203 00:10:15,807 --> 00:10:18,587 So he took me deeper into the canyon. 204 00:10:20,098 --> 00:10:22,145 Steve, when you said you're gonna bring me to the bottom, 205 00:10:22,176 --> 00:10:24,392 you, you weren't kidding when you word 206 00:10:24,454 --> 00:10:25,825 the word "the bottom", are we? 207 00:10:25,872 --> 00:10:30,030 We are in this uh, big side canyon to the main Grand Canyon... 208 00:10:30,108 --> 00:10:32,772 and we are looking at the granite basement rock, 209 00:10:32,835 --> 00:10:36,129 which is the, the core of the continent, if you will... 210 00:10:36,164 --> 00:10:39,768 and then we see the flat lining strata on top of it. 211 00:10:39,830 --> 00:10:43,008 The boundary between the granite rock below 212 00:10:43,033 --> 00:10:45,644 and the Tapeats sandstone above 213 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,607 is this surface we call the Great Unconformity. 214 00:10:49,748 --> 00:10:53,567 Why, why does it appear to be such a, a stark line? 215 00:10:53,592 --> 00:10:54,598 I mean, it's clear. 216 00:10:54,623 --> 00:10:58,891 I think it's an erosional boundary of colossal scale. 217 00:10:58,953 --> 00:11:01,752 We're looking at something that uh, shows the,... 218 00:11:01,822 --> 00:11:04,219 the magnitude of flood flow... 219 00:11:04,297 --> 00:11:05,541 over a surface. 220 00:11:05,580 --> 00:11:06,978 And this is just here? 221 00:11:07,057 --> 00:11:09,307 The Great Unconformity is continent wide. 222 00:11:09,377 --> 00:11:11,760 I've seen it, I believe, in the Middle East. 223 00:11:11,799 --> 00:11:13,393 It's over in Europe. 224 00:11:13,478 --> 00:11:14,705 Uh, it's in Africa. 225 00:11:14,744 --> 00:11:17,471 And here it is uh, under the North American continent. 226 00:11:17,502 --> 00:11:21,471 So, we got this uh, layer, how thick is this layer? 227 00:11:21,503 --> 00:11:22,924 What goes up from here? 228 00:11:22,971 --> 00:11:25,473 Well, we have the Sauk Megasequence here, 229 00:11:25,498 --> 00:11:27,184 if you will, a thousand feet of... 230 00:11:27,239 --> 00:11:31,028 sandstone, shale, limestone that go continent wide. 231 00:11:31,121 --> 00:11:33,754 - There are four other big sequence - Hmm. 232 00:11:33,779 --> 00:11:36,256 packages of strata that sit above it. 233 00:11:36,311 --> 00:11:39,779 Those are also very continuous like this. 234 00:11:39,889 --> 00:11:43,889 What we're seeing here is rather representative 235 00:11:43,928 --> 00:11:45,428 of the rest of the world. 236 00:11:45,482 --> 00:11:48,890 It makes one uh, really question the notion 237 00:11:48,915 --> 00:11:51,461 that this all happened because of a small local flood. 238 00:11:51,486 --> 00:11:53,297 We're talking about something enormous. 239 00:11:53,322 --> 00:11:57,148 The power of moving water was beveling and pulverizing rock, 240 00:11:57,234 --> 00:12:00,699 depositing great thicknesses of layers... 241 00:12:00,754 --> 00:12:04,822 and calling our mind to think about the global flood. 242 00:12:05,081 --> 00:12:08,384 The conventional story is entirely different, though. 243 00:12:08,455 --> 00:12:11,504 It would say that there is a lot of time... 244 00:12:11,551 --> 00:12:13,434 between each of these layers. 245 00:12:13,496 --> 00:12:16,115 Some people have said that the Great Unconformity 246 00:12:16,154 --> 00:12:19,061 boundary here represents half of billion years. 247 00:12:19,100 --> 00:12:21,006 You mean, between the granite we see and that 248 00:12:21,037 --> 00:12:22,608 first layer of sedimentary rock? 249 00:12:22,635 --> 00:12:25,662 Yeah. They say that maybe half of billion years there. 250 00:12:25,733 --> 00:12:30,340 Ok, and that's what their explanation of Earth history 251 00:12:30,410 --> 00:12:33,045 would ask them to consider. 252 00:12:33,131 --> 00:12:35,201 Yet, when you come here and look at this... 253 00:12:35,256 --> 00:12:37,024 nearly a featureless plane. 254 00:12:37,055 --> 00:12:39,348 It's not an exactly a plane, 255 00:12:39,391 --> 00:12:41,125 but it's a gently... 256 00:12:41,180 --> 00:12:42,915 - rolling surface. - Uh-huh. 257 00:12:42,963 --> 00:12:46,180 And would that be the product of billions of years... 258 00:12:46,227 --> 00:12:49,598 or would that be the product of the power of water... 259 00:12:49,660 --> 00:12:51,457 - planing off a surface? - Hhh. 260 00:12:51,567 --> 00:12:54,434 Time is foreign to... 261 00:12:54,481 --> 00:12:56,606 - a good explanation here. - Uh-huh. 262 00:12:56,637 --> 00:12:59,270 And so we want to explain what we see. 263 00:12:59,452 --> 00:13:02,295 Everywhere we look, we see the power of water. 264 00:13:02,334 --> 00:13:04,717 And it's water on a colossal scale. 265 00:13:04,742 --> 00:13:07,288 And that's the story here at Grand Canyon. 266 00:13:07,355 --> 00:13:10,366 It's not a little of water and a lot of time. 267 00:13:10,489 --> 00:13:14,045 It's a lot of water in a little time. 268 00:13:15,412 --> 00:13:17,506 Time really is the essential issue 269 00:13:17,562 --> 00:13:19,858 when talking about the history of the Earth. 270 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,702 How much time did it take to form what we see around us? 271 00:13:23,834 --> 00:13:26,327 It seemed clear to me that the global Flood would have 272 00:13:26,352 --> 00:13:28,592 transformed the Earth quickly. 273 00:13:28,694 --> 00:13:30,108 Yet I know, many people think 274 00:13:30,139 --> 00:13:33,702 that the world formed slowly over billions of years. 275 00:13:33,850 --> 00:13:38,077 What was the real difference between these two views of time? 276 00:13:38,491 --> 00:13:41,122 I needed to talk to someone who could tell me more about 277 00:13:41,147 --> 00:13:43,584 science and history and time. 278 00:13:43,684 --> 00:13:46,178 Since my background is in computer science, 279 00:13:46,231 --> 00:13:48,100 we met in a place we had personally 280 00:13:48,131 --> 00:13:50,584 experienced some of that history. 281 00:13:56,984 --> 00:13:58,289 As we looked at the exhibit, 282 00:13:58,321 --> 00:14:00,031 I was reminded how much smaller 283 00:14:00,063 --> 00:14:01,922 and more powerful computers have become 284 00:14:01,947 --> 00:14:04,045 since I first started using them. 285 00:14:04,163 --> 00:14:07,344 Paul said that changing assumptions about computers 286 00:14:07,387 --> 00:14:10,086 were really a series of paradigm shifts. 287 00:14:10,274 --> 00:14:13,196 So when I was 19, I read Thomas Kuhn's classic. 288 00:14:13,235 --> 00:14:15,313 "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions", 289 00:14:15,338 --> 00:14:18,711 where he described this notion of paradigms. 290 00:14:18,826 --> 00:14:23,188 A paradigm is a framework, within which you interpret evidence. 291 00:14:23,253 --> 00:14:26,008 So really, science isn't just about the evidence, 292 00:14:26,033 --> 00:14:28,525 it's about how you interpret that evidence. 293 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:29,961 So, this room for example, 294 00:14:29,986 --> 00:14:32,484 we got so-called "minicomputers" here. 295 00:14:32,523 --> 00:14:34,258 But really, they're not mini at all, 296 00:14:34,283 --> 00:14:36,234 in terms of our current paradigm. 297 00:14:36,297 --> 00:14:38,320 - Yeah, today, right? - Yeah. 298 00:14:38,375 --> 00:14:39,797 - This. - Yeah. 299 00:14:39,836 --> 00:14:40,875 Right? 300 00:14:40,945 --> 00:14:44,258 So really, to understand this question of origins 301 00:14:44,283 --> 00:14:46,002 you really need to begin 302 00:14:46,033 --> 00:14:48,289 by looking at the governing paradigms, 303 00:14:48,314 --> 00:14:51,429 the two major views that we currently have... 304 00:14:51,502 --> 00:14:54,705 about the history of life and history of the Universe. 305 00:14:54,783 --> 00:14:55,822 And what are those? 306 00:14:55,848 --> 00:14:57,119 On the one hand, we have 307 00:14:57,144 --> 00:14:58,988 - the conventional paradigm. - Uh-huh. 308 00:14:59,070 --> 00:15:02,877 In the conventional paradigm, you got deep time. 309 00:15:02,928 --> 00:15:05,275 13.7 billion years 310 00:15:05,330 --> 00:15:08,127 along which, this gradual process 311 00:15:08,162 --> 00:15:10,088 beginning with primal simplicity, 312 00:15:10,119 --> 00:15:12,290 ending in what we see today. 313 00:15:12,473 --> 00:15:15,324 All the complexity in life has to be built bottom up 314 00:15:15,348 --> 00:15:17,106 by strictly physical processes, 315 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:18,598 where no mind, 316 00:15:18,652 --> 00:15:19,724 no creator, 317 00:15:19,787 --> 00:15:22,272 no design is present. 318 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,816 The second view, we can call, let's say, 319 00:15:24,841 --> 00:15:27,223 the historical Genesis paradigm. 320 00:15:27,285 --> 00:15:31,357 Everything starts with a divine mind, a creator, 321 00:15:31,382 --> 00:15:35,912 an intelligence that plans and superintends 322 00:15:35,943 --> 00:15:38,717 and brings in to existence reality. 323 00:15:38,795 --> 00:15:42,295 Events are happening at a much more recent time scale. 324 00:15:42,499 --> 00:15:44,742 The universe, the solar system, 325 00:15:44,781 --> 00:15:46,586 our planet, life itself, 326 00:15:46,626 --> 00:15:50,756 all of that begins fully formed as a functioning system. 327 00:15:50,842 --> 00:15:52,190 It's not hard to see 328 00:15:52,215 --> 00:15:54,800 there is a radical difference between those two 329 00:15:54,857 --> 00:15:57,053 in terms of time. 330 00:15:57,123 --> 00:15:59,637 When we look at the history of life on this planet, 331 00:15:59,662 --> 00:16:01,326 we got a body of data. 332 00:16:01,373 --> 00:16:03,943 But depending on the paradigm that one adopts, 333 00:16:03,967 --> 00:16:07,193 that data will be interpreted in very different ways. 334 00:16:07,322 --> 00:16:09,857 It seems that one paradigm is 335 00:16:09,882 --> 00:16:11,975 drawing on a history that was 336 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:13,803 - given to us? - Yes. 337 00:16:13,959 --> 00:16:17,818 And another paradigm is constructing that history. 338 00:16:17,843 --> 00:16:18,928 Is that how you see that? 339 00:16:18,953 --> 00:16:21,045 We have a witness to those events. 340 00:16:21,108 --> 00:16:23,615 And that witness is telling us... 341 00:16:23,662 --> 00:16:24,896 this is what happened 342 00:16:24,921 --> 00:16:27,115 and we have to take that into consideration 343 00:16:27,148 --> 00:16:29,064 when we evaluate the data. 344 00:16:29,209 --> 00:16:32,084 Well, Paul, the, the reason has become s... 345 00:16:32,155 --> 00:16:33,463 serious. 346 00:16:33,502 --> 00:16:37,445 As we're not talking about a history of just... 347 00:16:37,492 --> 00:16:39,593 boiling water at a certain temperature. 348 00:16:39,618 --> 00:16:41,992 - Right. - We're talking about a history... 349 00:16:42,130 --> 00:16:45,136 that deals with the origin of the universe; 350 00:16:45,207 --> 00:16:47,753 it deals with the origin of life, 351 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:49,831 the origin of humanity, 352 00:16:49,902 --> 00:16:53,134 the origin of sin and why there is evil in the world, 353 00:16:53,173 --> 00:16:55,869 the origin of geological formations 354 00:16:55,894 --> 00:16:57,479 - that we have around us, - Yeah. 355 00:16:57,556 --> 00:16:58,884 the origin of language. 356 00:16:58,923 --> 00:17:02,376 I mean, this is a history that is not minor. 357 00:17:02,447 --> 00:17:03,625 - Yeah. - This is dealing with 358 00:17:03,650 --> 00:17:06,073 major, major elements of humanity 359 00:17:06,104 --> 00:17:07,441 - and where we are today. - Yeah. 360 00:17:07,472 --> 00:17:10,620 You're talking about the origins of literally everything. 361 00:17:10,698 --> 00:17:12,779 And I think, if we zoom out from that 362 00:17:12,818 --> 00:17:15,060 and say, well, "what really is the difference 363 00:17:15,099 --> 00:17:16,732 between these two paradigms?" 364 00:17:16,763 --> 00:17:18,060 It isn't a question of... 365 00:17:18,105 --> 00:17:21,359 science on the one hand versus religion on the other. 366 00:17:21,453 --> 00:17:23,632 Because both of them are scientific 367 00:17:23,663 --> 00:17:26,781 in the sense of looking at the common body of data. 368 00:17:26,890 --> 00:17:28,709 Really, at the deepest level, 369 00:17:28,741 --> 00:17:32,280 the difference is two competing views of history. 370 00:17:32,397 --> 00:17:36,069 What is the true history of our cosmos? 371 00:17:36,678 --> 00:17:38,842 That does seem to be the real question. 372 00:17:38,904 --> 00:17:40,592 What is our true history? 373 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:42,561 What actually happened? 374 00:17:42,706 --> 00:17:45,709 The conflict is not between two views of science, 375 00:17:45,755 --> 00:17:48,584 but between two competing views of history. 376 00:17:48,784 --> 00:17:50,608 Since Genesis was written in Hebrew, 377 00:17:50,633 --> 00:17:53,069 I wanted to talk to Hebrew expert. 378 00:17:53,140 --> 00:17:56,280 What was actually in the original text? 379 00:18:04,861 --> 00:18:08,221 The first word in Genesis is "Braichit". 380 00:18:08,246 --> 00:18:09,278 Braichit uh, uh. 381 00:18:09,312 --> 00:18:12,853 Genesis 1:1 is Braichit... 382 00:18:12,892 --> 00:18:16,150 So, this is the beginning of the Toledot of uh, of Noah. 383 00:18:16,181 --> 00:18:18,722 Just think that word Toledot is a very interesting word. 384 00:18:18,747 --> 00:18:20,613 Translated, sometimes, as "genealogy". 385 00:18:20,637 --> 00:18:22,630 Sometimes, it's translated "history". 386 00:18:22,761 --> 00:18:24,410 And what follows then... 387 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,488 - is the account of the Flood. - Uh-huh. 388 00:18:26,566 --> 00:18:28,005 Steve, it seems that... 389 00:18:28,036 --> 00:18:31,381 there is a lot of history in the Bible. 390 00:18:31,466 --> 00:18:32,890 Is that how you see it? Is... 391 00:18:32,915 --> 00:18:33,960 Oh, absolutely. 392 00:18:34,007 --> 00:18:37,484 In, in fact, the first thing is, it is an accurate historical account. 393 00:18:37,509 --> 00:18:38,531 Uh-huh. 394 00:18:38,570 --> 00:18:42,218 The presentation is such uh, in, in the perspective of writers... 395 00:18:42,243 --> 00:18:45,651 that they believe they were talking about real events. 396 00:18:45,683 --> 00:18:48,058 - Okay. In... - It's very, it's very obvious that... 397 00:18:48,112 --> 00:18:49,792 because of the way in which... 398 00:18:49,847 --> 00:18:53,214 uh, they insisted the next generation learn... 399 00:18:53,245 --> 00:18:54,972 - you know, learn their history. - Uh-huh. 400 00:18:55,035 --> 00:18:58,292 When you look at these early chapters in Genesis, 401 00:18:58,347 --> 00:18:59,448 what do you see? 402 00:18:59,479 --> 00:19:01,081 Can you take us through this? 403 00:19:01,112 --> 00:19:02,136 It starts with: 404 00:19:02,161 --> 00:19:04,259 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 405 00:19:04,284 --> 00:19:06,796 There's, there's no word in the Hebrew for Universe. 406 00:19:06,821 --> 00:19:08,268 This means, He created everything. 407 00:19:08,300 --> 00:19:09,315 - Uh-huh. - And then... 408 00:19:09,340 --> 00:19:11,690 the next thing we find in Genesis 1:2... 409 00:19:11,745 --> 00:19:13,730 uh, we, we find a waterball... 410 00:19:13,776 --> 00:19:16,034 - that is in space. - Uh-huh. 411 00:19:16,065 --> 00:19:19,573 God, in the subsequent days, is going to fill that universe. 412 00:19:19,604 --> 00:19:21,745 You're talking about days here. 413 00:19:21,820 --> 00:19:23,698 Do you see these as literal days? 414 00:19:23,723 --> 00:19:25,558 Is that what the text is telling us? 415 00:19:25,583 --> 00:19:27,667 Or, you know what other people think, 416 00:19:27,692 --> 00:19:29,729 that this, this is just a poetic 417 00:19:29,761 --> 00:19:32,097 - uh, different point of view? - Well, first of all, it's not poetry. 418 00:19:32,122 --> 00:19:36,290 The world greatest Hebraists all affirm that this is the narrative. 419 00:19:36,326 --> 00:19:37,351 Uh-huh. 420 00:19:37,376 --> 00:19:40,967 Uh, and uh, they, they say that, that one of the unique features... 421 00:19:41,046 --> 00:19:43,633 of, of the Genesis account... 422 00:19:43,688 --> 00:19:45,314 of creation... 423 00:19:45,345 --> 00:19:46,353 and the Flood, 424 00:19:46,384 --> 00:19:47,519 is that they are narratives. 425 00:19:47,544 --> 00:19:49,097 Because the ancient Near East, 426 00:19:49,126 --> 00:19:51,243 they are done in epic poetry. 427 00:19:51,268 --> 00:19:52,548 Which is very different. 428 00:19:52,595 --> 00:19:53,933 And here we have... 429 00:19:54,019 --> 00:19:57,254 a narrative to indicate that this is historical. 430 00:19:57,415 --> 00:20:01,230 What that means is that the, you should understand the words... 431 00:20:01,277 --> 00:20:04,347 the what, the normal way in which these Hebrew words were understood. 432 00:20:04,372 --> 00:20:05,394 The word "yom",... 433 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,628 it means "day". 434 00:20:07,757 --> 00:20:09,745 Uh, the foundation of its usage... 435 00:20:09,785 --> 00:20:11,361 is what we mean by a day. 436 00:20:11,386 --> 00:20:12,878 It's a 24-hour day. 437 00:20:13,026 --> 00:20:15,798 The only way you'd want it to mean a long, longer period of time... 438 00:20:15,833 --> 00:20:17,933 is if, as if you impose... 439 00:20:17,996 --> 00:20:20,870 an alien uh, concept... 440 00:20:20,928 --> 00:20:22,116 - to the text. - Uh-huh. 441 00:20:22,154 --> 00:20:25,569 And say, well, I think that, that these are ages. 442 00:20:25,639 --> 00:20:27,522 And therefore, "yom" has to mean ages. 443 00:20:27,565 --> 00:20:29,471 What you have to do is start with the text. 444 00:20:29,496 --> 00:20:30,151 Yeah. 445 00:20:30,182 --> 00:20:32,432 If we start with the text, "yom" means day. 446 00:20:32,486 --> 00:20:34,176 So when we come to... 447 00:20:34,231 --> 00:20:37,950 uh, the passage that talks about the creation of... 448 00:20:38,019 --> 00:20:40,308 - of Adam and Eve, - Uh-huh, yeah. 449 00:20:40,332 --> 00:20:44,553 um, you're seeing that as a clear historical event... 450 00:20:44,578 --> 00:20:46,475 which would stand in direct opposition 451 00:20:46,500 --> 00:20:49,434 to the conventional paradigm that, that man evolved off 452 00:20:49,459 --> 00:20:51,947 of a long, long process. 453 00:20:52,154 --> 00:20:53,830 The biblical text... 454 00:20:53,979 --> 00:20:56,033 is not compatible... 455 00:20:56,081 --> 00:20:57,385 - with the standard... - Hmm. 456 00:20:57,424 --> 00:20:59,268 uh, the conventional paradigm. 457 00:20:59,487 --> 00:21:03,117 The Bible teaches us that the Lord God formed man. 458 00:21:03,161 --> 00:21:05,611 Artistically breeding in the breath of life, 459 00:21:05,642 --> 00:21:07,049 created man in His image. 460 00:21:07,108 --> 00:21:08,971 And then, of course, woman is created. 461 00:21:09,007 --> 00:21:10,119 We have marriage. 462 00:21:10,154 --> 00:21:11,588 Uh, we have the fall. 463 00:21:11,730 --> 00:21:14,932 And then in Noah genealogy, we have the entire Flood account. 464 00:21:15,021 --> 00:21:16,751 And the Flood, is it a global flood? 465 00:21:16,775 --> 00:21:17,593 Well, I mean... 466 00:21:17,618 --> 00:21:20,001 I don't know how many times, I think, 35 times or so, 467 00:21:20,056 --> 00:21:23,174 the word "kol", which is "all", occurs in the Flood narrative. 468 00:21:23,275 --> 00:21:25,354 Uh, if this is a judgment on mankind, 469 00:21:25,408 --> 00:21:27,221 then it has to be global. 470 00:21:27,275 --> 00:21:28,949 We continue through these... 471 00:21:28,980 --> 00:21:31,809 first eleven chapters of Genesis, we come to chapter ten,... 472 00:21:31,910 --> 00:21:34,295 which is called, which is called the table of nations, 473 00:21:34,334 --> 00:21:35,779 which are the sons of Noah. 474 00:21:35,818 --> 00:21:37,670 Uh, it mentions in that chapter... 475 00:21:37,695 --> 00:21:41,216 that the people are in their different nations and their languages. 476 00:21:41,246 --> 00:21:44,123 So Moses goes back in Genesis 11:1 thru 9... 477 00:21:44,153 --> 00:21:46,943 and explains how the languages ​​develop. 478 00:21:47,019 --> 00:21:50,285 And so we come to the Toledot of Terah. 479 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,927 Uh, and the Toledot of Terah is not going to be about Terah. 480 00:21:53,954 --> 00:21:56,677 It's going to be about his famous son,... 481 00:21:56,733 --> 00:21:58,052 - Abraham. - Uh-huh. 482 00:21:58,130 --> 00:22:00,756 It just seems so apparent that... 483 00:22:00,803 --> 00:22:02,577 that there is, there is no disconnect 484 00:22:02,602 --> 00:22:05,208 between all of that and everything that we see in the beginning. 485 00:22:05,233 --> 00:22:10,225 It's, it's, it's just one long historical narrative, is it not? 486 00:22:10,264 --> 00:22:11,772 It, it is. As a matter of fact, 487 00:22:11,826 --> 00:22:14,654 the ge, the genealogy form the structure, 488 00:22:14,722 --> 00:22:16,217 uh, not just for Genesis, 489 00:22:16,264 --> 00:22:18,730 but the, the narratives are embedded in the genealogies. 490 00:22:18,765 --> 00:22:21,685 The genealogies are picked up and actually call the Toledot... 491 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:22,795 in the book of Ruth... 492 00:22:22,858 --> 00:22:26,155 to establish that David is a descendant of Judah. 493 00:22:26,209 --> 00:22:29,158 Which is required by Jacob prophecy. 494 00:22:29,254 --> 00:22:31,376 And then we move in to the New Testament... 495 00:22:31,472 --> 00:22:33,572 How is the pedigree of Jesus established? 496 00:22:33,597 --> 00:22:35,134 With, with two genealogies: 497 00:22:35,197 --> 00:22:38,244 One going back through, uh, Mary's line... 498 00:22:38,302 --> 00:22:39,911 all the way back to Adam. 499 00:22:40,062 --> 00:22:43,341 Steve, in the light of all this that we, that we have seen, 500 00:22:43,379 --> 00:22:47,669 um, how important is the historical narrative 501 00:22:47,710 --> 00:22:49,342 that we find throughout Genesis, 502 00:22:49,373 --> 00:22:52,513 including all of the, uh, the generations that are led up? 503 00:22:52,540 --> 00:22:56,647 How important is that to Christianity? 504 00:22:57,101 --> 00:23:00,064 It shows that Christianity has a historical basis. 505 00:23:00,103 --> 00:23:01,329 It's what the Scriptures say 506 00:23:01,354 --> 00:23:05,517 and the scriptures represent actual historical, uh, data. 507 00:23:05,573 --> 00:23:09,393 So Christianity is, is not a leap in the dark. 508 00:23:09,473 --> 00:23:14,299 It is an understanding that has very strong historical bases,... 509 00:23:14,482 --> 00:23:18,190 and that our Savior is also our Creator. 510 00:23:19,746 --> 00:23:22,823 These genealogies are incredibly important. 511 00:23:22,941 --> 00:23:25,372 If Jesus is descended from Adam, 512 00:23:25,430 --> 00:23:28,276 and Adam was created on the sixth day of creation, 513 00:23:28,350 --> 00:23:30,854 then the Earth can't be very old. 514 00:23:30,975 --> 00:23:33,932 So where do the millions of years come from? 515 00:23:34,666 --> 00:23:36,446 I met a geologist at a place 516 00:23:36,471 --> 00:23:39,549 where he said we could understand this better. 517 00:23:45,260 --> 00:23:46,269 You see there... 518 00:23:46,301 --> 00:23:48,598 - the quietness expands? - Yup. 519 00:23:48,652 --> 00:23:50,956 Nothing to disturb you. 520 00:23:51,631 --> 00:23:55,175 Yet you got the reminder that there was an explosive in the past. 521 00:23:55,348 --> 00:23:58,668 There was a volcano back here, the cinder cone volcano. 522 00:23:58,802 --> 00:24:00,785 And it built steps this lava flow 523 00:24:00,818 --> 00:24:03,309 that spilled out across this country side. 524 00:24:03,450 --> 00:24:06,012 Just a huge amount of, of basaltic lava. 525 00:24:06,037 --> 00:24:08,375 Yeah, but it's actually small, uh, 526 00:24:08,441 --> 00:24:11,711 compared to the lava flows that we see in many places. 527 00:24:11,776 --> 00:24:15,638 And there're, there're some like thousand of these volcanoes around here. 528 00:24:15,663 --> 00:24:17,171 And the little one behind us here,... 529 00:24:17,214 --> 00:24:19,288 we call that a cinder cone volcano. 530 00:24:19,313 --> 00:24:21,520 - You call that "a little one"? - Yeah, well, it is. 531 00:24:21,548 --> 00:24:23,339 I mean, these volcanoes are small. 532 00:24:23,364 --> 00:24:26,612 Mount St. Helens in 1980 when it erupted, ok? 533 00:24:26,663 --> 00:24:29,656 The top two and a half thousand feet of the volcano blew off, 534 00:24:29,693 --> 00:24:33,195 but that was small compared to historical eruptions. 535 00:24:33,376 --> 00:24:35,448 We can go back a little further 536 00:24:35,473 --> 00:24:37,378 to the great Yellowstone eruption, 537 00:24:37,453 --> 00:24:40,737 and some of the volcanic ash was down in Texas. 538 00:24:40,777 --> 00:24:42,605 It blew that far away. 539 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,792 You think about lava flows in India... 540 00:24:45,927 --> 00:24:49,497 where you have an accumulation up about to a thousand feet... 541 00:24:49,528 --> 00:24:52,374 over an area a third of the size of the... 542 00:24:52,411 --> 00:24:54,339 subcontinent of India. 543 00:24:54,514 --> 00:24:57,513 What we see in the present is really only... 544 00:24:57,558 --> 00:25:01,044 a, a minuscule by comparison to what we've seen in the past. 545 00:25:01,083 --> 00:25:04,354 And that's telling us something about the historic past. 546 00:25:04,467 --> 00:25:09,724 We can't use present day rates of these processes to understand... 547 00:25:09,771 --> 00:25:13,820 how quickly and how majestically, in terms of scale,... 548 00:25:13,867 --> 00:25:16,203 the geological record accumulated. 549 00:25:16,335 --> 00:25:19,340 Well, that is the point that has brought me to you. 550 00:25:19,372 --> 00:25:20,145 - Because, - Uh-huh. 551 00:25:20,184 --> 00:25:23,121 how do we determine the age of these rocks? 552 00:25:23,164 --> 00:25:24,659 Well, the important... 553 00:25:24,676 --> 00:25:28,121 first thing is to recognize that this lava flow is uh, 554 00:25:28,176 --> 00:25:29,660 in a sense, an instant in time. 555 00:25:29,685 --> 00:25:30,826 It's an event. 556 00:25:30,978 --> 00:25:32,832 And when that's molten,... 557 00:25:32,926 --> 00:25:34,504 you got all the different elements 558 00:25:34,551 --> 00:25:37,316 that uh, uh, come out of the volcano all mixed up. 559 00:25:37,474 --> 00:25:39,592 And the rock starts to crystallize. 560 00:25:39,682 --> 00:25:42,295 Any of those atoms that are radioactive,... 561 00:25:42,409 --> 00:25:44,490 they now start to accumulate... 562 00:25:44,552 --> 00:25:47,406 what we call "the daughter products", the decay products. 563 00:25:47,534 --> 00:25:51,786 Now, the point is that, that this rate of decay is so slow... 564 00:25:51,827 --> 00:25:53,632 when we measure in the present... 565 00:25:53,757 --> 00:25:56,757 that uh, you know, it takes millions of years... 566 00:25:56,827 --> 00:25:59,829 for parent atoms to decay to daughter atoms. 567 00:25:59,854 --> 00:26:02,868 And so, that's ultimately where the millions of years come from. 568 00:26:02,893 --> 00:26:06,087 The fact that the decay rates in the present are slow. 569 00:26:06,164 --> 00:26:07,821 But we would say that the present... 570 00:26:07,861 --> 00:26:09,992 is not really the key to the past, 571 00:26:10,017 --> 00:26:11,423 because, obviously,... 572 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,535 the past holds some massive, massive 573 00:26:14,559 --> 00:26:16,121 - catastrophic events... - Right. 574 00:26:16,152 --> 00:26:17,314 that are not going on today. 575 00:26:17,339 --> 00:26:18,575 In fact, the Bible would say that 576 00:26:18,607 --> 00:26:20,419 - the past is the key to the present. - Mmm. 577 00:26:20,450 --> 00:26:23,471 If you want us, want to understand why the way the world is today,... 578 00:26:23,506 --> 00:26:25,953 you got to understand what happened in the past. 579 00:26:26,024 --> 00:26:27,733 So we got lots of hints... 580 00:26:27,804 --> 00:26:32,382 that geological processes haven't been at constant rates through time. 581 00:26:32,465 --> 00:26:34,218 And we have other hints... 582 00:26:34,303 --> 00:26:37,554 that the, the decay rates might not have been constant. 583 00:26:37,808 --> 00:26:41,259 So we've taken rock samples from a number of places. 584 00:26:41,311 --> 00:26:44,705 Lots of samples in the Grand Canyon, in each of these rock layers. 585 00:26:44,786 --> 00:26:46,384 I've done it in New Zealand. 586 00:26:46,431 --> 00:26:48,556 We've done in other parts of the world. 587 00:26:48,641 --> 00:26:51,259 And what we've done is we submitted... 588 00:26:51,377 --> 00:26:53,103 the same samples... 589 00:26:53,155 --> 00:26:55,556 to more than one of these dating methods. 590 00:26:55,616 --> 00:26:57,124 And so, what we found is 591 00:26:57,162 --> 00:26:59,451 on the same samples with more than one method, 592 00:26:59,490 --> 00:27:01,303 we were getting ages that were different 593 00:27:01,328 --> 00:27:02,708 by hundreds of millions of years, 594 00:27:02,733 --> 00:27:03,459 - even... - Hmm. 595 00:27:03,486 --> 00:27:05,860 even a billion years in some instances. 596 00:27:06,045 --> 00:27:10,304 We're seeing huge differences by using different, different methods. 597 00:27:10,336 --> 00:27:13,765 Well, if, if, if there is that kind of difference 598 00:27:13,790 --> 00:27:16,281 between all of these dating method, methods... 599 00:27:16,357 --> 00:27:18,281 then that would seems to confirm the fact 600 00:27:18,308 --> 00:27:20,140 that we have an open system here, 601 00:27:20,165 --> 00:27:20,984 - Correct. - not closed one. 602 00:27:21,018 --> 00:27:22,711 And if we have an open system, 603 00:27:22,750 --> 00:27:24,570 that means, we can't trust it... 604 00:27:24,646 --> 00:27:27,289 uh, to give us dependable dates... 605 00:27:27,375 --> 00:27:28,890 for, for those rocks. 606 00:27:28,929 --> 00:27:32,359 And that changes the whole thinking about the history of the Earth. 607 00:27:32,421 --> 00:27:34,296 Because suddenly now, 608 00:27:34,339 --> 00:27:37,225 these, these radioactive clocks are not reliable. 609 00:27:37,275 --> 00:27:40,554 Uh, we got evidence that rates were faster in the past. 610 00:27:40,613 --> 00:27:44,335 Suddenly, we, we might not be thinking in terms of millions of years. 611 00:27:44,369 --> 00:27:46,569 We might be thinking in terms of a history... 612 00:27:46,616 --> 00:27:48,554 that is much more much shorter. 613 00:27:48,730 --> 00:27:51,921 But you were saying that this kind of evidence... 614 00:27:51,975 --> 00:27:54,600 uh, is in the open literature now. 615 00:27:54,625 --> 00:27:55,632 Yes, yes. 616 00:27:55,679 --> 00:27:57,667 Why, why is it not making impact? 617 00:27:57,692 --> 00:27:59,468 Well, I, I, I've been asked that 618 00:27:59,493 --> 00:28:02,499 when I've spoken in universities' geology departments. 619 00:28:02,575 --> 00:28:04,436 And the answer is: Because... 620 00:28:04,468 --> 00:28:07,405 there is a commitment to the millions of years. 621 00:28:07,444 --> 00:28:11,093 And so, once people get lock in to that focus... 622 00:28:11,186 --> 00:28:13,507 anything outside their field of view that... 623 00:28:13,558 --> 00:28:15,452 conflicts with that focus... 624 00:28:15,562 --> 00:28:17,898 uh, is, is marginalized. 625 00:28:17,944 --> 00:28:20,850 And the reason why the millions of years are important, 626 00:28:20,981 --> 00:28:25,046 If, if, if we go back in history of, of scientific thought, 627 00:28:25,154 --> 00:28:27,061 Charles Lyell in England... 628 00:28:27,117 --> 00:28:31,343 proposed millions of years and they multiplied the ages for the rocks. 629 00:28:31,499 --> 00:28:35,108 And that was the foundation on which Charles Darwin built. 630 00:28:35,153 --> 00:28:37,382 In fact, he read Charles Lyell's book... 631 00:28:37,452 --> 00:28:40,912 and was convinced of the millions of years of geological evolution, 632 00:28:40,937 --> 00:28:43,694 so he could say, now given enough time... 633 00:28:43,741 --> 00:28:45,556 what we now see happening in the present, 634 00:28:45,581 --> 00:28:47,750 we might not only see small changes in the present, 635 00:28:47,815 --> 00:28:49,127 given millions of years, 636 00:28:49,166 --> 00:28:51,564 the small changes can add up to big changes. 637 00:28:51,685 --> 00:28:55,572 And so, if you want to have a way of looking at the hist of history... 638 00:28:55,597 --> 00:28:58,383 that uh, says that we got here by chance, 639 00:28:58,408 --> 00:29:01,019 random processes over millions of years,... 640 00:29:01,051 --> 00:29:03,377 then you got to have rocks that are millions of years old. 641 00:29:03,402 --> 00:29:05,494 Otherwise, you'd undermine that whole... 642 00:29:05,541 --> 00:29:08,439 that whole foundation of that view of the history. 643 00:29:08,464 --> 00:29:11,106 So time becomes the critical element 644 00:29:11,139 --> 00:29:12,560 - Yes. - for the conventional paradigm, 645 00:29:12,591 --> 00:29:16,356 - Exactly. - and that time has to be a deep time. 646 00:29:18,193 --> 00:29:20,913 Andrew said when you study the rock formations, 647 00:29:20,989 --> 00:29:25,826 they show evidence of a young earth transformed by a global catastrophe. 648 00:29:25,995 --> 00:29:29,772 So he took me south to Sedona to see it for myself. 649 00:29:31,649 --> 00:29:33,850 The important thing to note is that uh... 650 00:29:33,875 --> 00:29:37,155 this landscape is actually very stable. 651 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,412 There was lots of erosion in the past... 652 00:29:39,444 --> 00:29:40,999 - Oh, yeah. - to carve out this... 653 00:29:41,053 --> 00:29:42,514 - whole terrain. - Uh-huh. 654 00:29:42,556 --> 00:29:43,983 But those cliffs... 655 00:29:44,061 --> 00:29:46,120 and, and the valley floor are very stable, 656 00:29:46,144 --> 00:29:48,277 which is why you got the vegetation. 657 00:29:48,349 --> 00:29:50,803 Today, everything is much, much quieter. 658 00:29:50,908 --> 00:29:54,332 Today's processes are extremely slow. 659 00:29:54,455 --> 00:29:57,090 But they can't explain how we got this erosion, 660 00:29:57,137 --> 00:29:58,418 how we got these layers, 661 00:29:58,457 --> 00:30:00,387 how we got these cliffs. 662 00:30:00,716 --> 00:30:02,082 Alright. So,... 663 00:30:02,121 --> 00:30:05,176 you wanted to come here because you see evidence... 664 00:30:05,239 --> 00:30:07,019 uh, of a young Earth... 665 00:30:07,075 --> 00:30:08,972 uh, because of, of what's here. 666 00:30:08,997 --> 00:30:10,496 - What do you see? - Yes. Well,... 667 00:30:10,551 --> 00:30:13,980 the first thing we've noticed is the extent of these layers. 668 00:30:14,055 --> 00:30:16,004 It's like a stack of pancakes. 669 00:30:16,051 --> 00:30:17,918 For example, the red unit 670 00:30:17,965 --> 00:30:19,340 - that goes all the way across - Uh-huh. 671 00:30:19,365 --> 00:30:20,527 our field of view, 672 00:30:20,582 --> 00:30:22,592 that's the Schnebly Hill Formation. 673 00:30:22,631 --> 00:30:23,717 And above that, 674 00:30:23,749 --> 00:30:25,671 you can see the first white unit, 675 00:30:25,724 --> 00:30:27,584 it's Coconino Sandstone. 676 00:30:27,630 --> 00:30:30,834 And above that, you got the Toroweap at the horizon, 677 00:30:30,874 --> 00:30:32,802 you got the Kaibab limestone, 678 00:30:32,827 --> 00:30:35,296 which is the, the rim rock of the Grand Canyon. 679 00:30:35,371 --> 00:30:37,069 And, you know, here we are,... 680 00:30:37,116 --> 00:30:39,468 70 more miles from the Grand Canyon 681 00:30:39,493 --> 00:30:41,647 - and these layers are still here. - Yeah. 682 00:30:41,789 --> 00:30:43,987 It's almost hard to imagine 683 00:30:44,035 --> 00:30:48,033 the volume of material that that represents. 684 00:30:48,058 --> 00:30:48,830 Yes. 685 00:30:48,855 --> 00:30:50,761 Take the Coconino sandstone, 686 00:30:50,841 --> 00:30:52,515 We can trace it from here 687 00:30:52,594 --> 00:30:54,406 right across New Mexico, 688 00:30:54,437 --> 00:30:55,547 Colorado, 689 00:30:55,585 --> 00:30:58,920 right over towards Kansas and Oklahoma, even in Texas. 690 00:30:58,945 --> 00:31:01,275 We're talking at least 200,000 square miles... 691 00:31:01,314 --> 00:31:03,275 - Mmm. - for this one rock unit... 692 00:31:03,306 --> 00:31:06,392 that's consistant for miles after miles after miles. 693 00:31:06,446 --> 00:31:08,907 That's not the scale that we see today, 694 00:31:08,939 --> 00:31:10,892 with localized sedimentation. 695 00:31:10,964 --> 00:31:13,525 And to get a flat line like this... 696 00:31:13,580 --> 00:31:15,627 over such a large area, 697 00:31:15,690 --> 00:31:18,259 it's like you have to make your pancake all at once 698 00:31:18,284 --> 00:31:19,744 - very rapidely. - Uh-huh. 699 00:31:19,769 --> 00:31:23,672 And so, these layers show evidence of rapid sedimentation, 700 00:31:23,731 --> 00:31:25,810 the, the extension of these layers. 701 00:31:25,912 --> 00:31:26,919 Well, Andrew, 702 00:31:26,959 --> 00:31:29,834 you, you were talking about that red formation, but... 703 00:31:29,871 --> 00:31:31,459 that doesn't sound familiar to me. 704 00:31:31,484 --> 00:31:33,154 No, that's the Schnebly Hill Formation. 705 00:31:33,185 --> 00:31:35,021 That's not in the Grand Canyon. 706 00:31:35,108 --> 00:31:37,935 In the Grand Canyon, we go from Coconino... 707 00:31:37,998 --> 00:31:39,639 into the Hermit formation. 708 00:31:39,695 --> 00:31:41,755 There's no face boundary,... 709 00:31:41,854 --> 00:31:44,802 and there's no evidence of erosion there. 710 00:31:44,889 --> 00:31:48,443 Which means that the Hermit formation was rapidly deposited... 711 00:31:48,507 --> 00:31:51,794 and then immediately the Coconino that was deposited on top of it. 712 00:31:51,842 --> 00:31:52,920 But here,... 713 00:31:52,966 --> 00:31:55,701 we come 70 miles from the Grand Canyon... 714 00:31:55,771 --> 00:31:58,959 and we got this Schnebly Hill formation between... 715 00:31:59,005 --> 00:32:01,107 - the Coconino and the Hermit. - Hmm. 716 00:32:01,176 --> 00:32:02,951 And, and this Schnebly Hill formation, 717 00:32:02,982 --> 00:32:05,022 800 to 1,000 feet thick,... 718 00:32:05,060 --> 00:32:08,304 over an area of a, a, a 1,000 square miles,... 719 00:32:08,380 --> 00:32:10,804 had to have been formed very rapidly. 720 00:32:10,833 --> 00:32:13,389 If, if, if that took millions of years, 721 00:32:13,487 --> 00:32:15,326 we ought to see millions of years of evidence 722 00:32:15,351 --> 00:32:16,680 - of millions of years of erosion - Uh-huh. 723 00:32:16,705 --> 00:32:18,203 - back in the Grand Canyon - Uh-huh. 724 00:32:18,228 --> 00:32:20,369 at that same boundary. We don't. 725 00:32:20,466 --> 00:32:23,930 So that means that this Schnebly Hill formation in this area... 726 00:32:23,973 --> 00:32:26,676 had to form in a matter of hours. 727 00:32:26,824 --> 00:32:30,191 So it told you that not only there's lack of erosion 728 00:32:30,216 --> 00:32:32,442 but there's no time between those boundaries. 729 00:32:32,473 --> 00:32:34,387 - So the whole sequence of layers - Hhh. 730 00:32:34,443 --> 00:32:36,271 was very rapidly deposited. 731 00:32:36,395 --> 00:32:40,130 So we have this, this large extent of layers. 732 00:32:40,161 --> 00:32:43,973 We have the lack of erosion between the layers. 733 00:32:44,012 --> 00:32:45,911 What other evidence do you see? 734 00:32:45,966 --> 00:32:47,716 Well, if we look closely, 735 00:32:47,754 --> 00:32:50,091 for example, the Coconino Sandstone, 736 00:32:50,204 --> 00:32:52,562 we see the bedding that this bands within 737 00:32:52,593 --> 00:32:54,233 - that is, that is sloping. - Hhh. 738 00:32:54,294 --> 00:32:56,187 We call those cross-beds. 739 00:32:56,249 --> 00:32:58,093 What they indicate is that 740 00:32:58,140 --> 00:33:00,171 you had underwater sand waves... 741 00:33:00,210 --> 00:33:01,515 were moving along. 742 00:33:01,577 --> 00:33:03,462 The comparison is in the desert. 743 00:33:03,517 --> 00:33:06,744 It is important to recognize that there's a difference in the angle... 744 00:33:06,783 --> 00:33:07,976 in the desert dune. 745 00:33:08,001 --> 00:33:12,121 It is usually 30 to 34 degrees of these, these sloping beds. 746 00:33:12,205 --> 00:33:15,380 Under water, it's usually 25 degrees or less. 747 00:33:15,415 --> 00:33:17,426 And Dr. John Whitmore... 748 00:33:17,488 --> 00:33:21,012 has combed the hills around here with his students... 749 00:33:21,059 --> 00:33:23,262 hundreds and hundreds of measurements... 750 00:33:23,293 --> 00:33:25,028 of these cross-beds. 751 00:33:25,090 --> 00:33:27,215 And they all come in the range of 752 00:33:27,254 --> 00:33:29,114 - 15 to 25 degrees. - Hhh. 753 00:33:29,215 --> 00:33:31,457 So it was underwater deposition. 754 00:33:31,527 --> 00:33:34,248 And so, these layers are accumulating 755 00:33:34,273 --> 00:33:36,857 in hours, weeks, and, and within months,... 756 00:33:36,912 --> 00:33:39,600 you got this whole stack of pancakes layers... 757 00:33:39,670 --> 00:33:41,170 over such wide areas. 758 00:33:41,216 --> 00:33:43,320 So it isn't difference in believing 759 00:33:43,351 --> 00:33:44,961 in those layers that exist. 760 00:33:44,986 --> 00:33:46,638 - Not at all. - It's, it's the difference 761 00:33:46,663 --> 00:33:48,663 - of time, isn't it? - Correct. 762 00:33:48,688 --> 00:33:51,871 It's not a question of science versus the Bible. 763 00:33:51,925 --> 00:33:53,913 When we're talking about the Flood paradigm 764 00:33:53,952 --> 00:33:55,523 and the conventional paradigm, 765 00:33:55,566 --> 00:33:58,205 we're actually talking about two different views 766 00:33:58,230 --> 00:34:00,327 - of the Earth history. - Uh-huh. 767 00:34:00,805 --> 00:34:03,570 Those views really are different. 768 00:34:03,827 --> 00:34:06,536 Of course, I grew up being taught the conventional view 769 00:34:06,561 --> 00:34:10,234 with this long ages and slow uniform changes. 770 00:34:10,297 --> 00:34:14,469 But what was the history of the world according to Genesis? 771 00:34:24,935 --> 00:34:28,036 Kurt Wise took me from one fascinating place to another,... 772 00:34:28,083 --> 00:34:30,341 showing me evidence of fossil forests,... 773 00:34:30,380 --> 00:34:32,927 explaining the rapid formation of coal,... 774 00:34:32,997 --> 00:34:37,351 and talking about the complex design of biological systems. 775 00:34:37,460 --> 00:34:38,788 Everywhere we turned, 776 00:34:38,819 --> 00:34:42,616 he showed me something new about the Earth and its history. 777 00:34:42,743 --> 00:34:47,017 We ended up at the entrance to an old abandoned coal mine. 778 00:34:47,674 --> 00:34:49,680 This is leftover remain 779 00:34:49,705 --> 00:34:51,875 of the Dayton Coal and Iron Company, 780 00:34:51,900 --> 00:34:54,611 built about 100-110 years ago. 781 00:34:54,689 --> 00:34:56,254 What's amazing is uh, 782 00:34:56,279 --> 00:34:59,761 if, if you didn't know that history, and if you look at these rocks, 783 00:34:59,799 --> 00:35:01,375 you would think they were very ancient. 784 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:02,744 In fact, if we were in Greece, 785 00:35:02,791 --> 00:35:04,931 you might think they're thousands of years old. 786 00:35:04,987 --> 00:35:08,284 It's hard to tell just looking at the structure itself. 787 00:35:08,464 --> 00:35:11,191 Well, Kurt, then I need for you to do something, 788 00:35:11,216 --> 00:35:15,259 because I know that the conventional paradigm... 789 00:35:15,284 --> 00:35:18,652 looks back in Earth history as a straight line,... 790 00:35:18,745 --> 00:35:21,917 a lot of uniform processes and so forth. 791 00:35:22,003 --> 00:35:25,114 But, the Genesis history is telling us that... 792 00:35:25,153 --> 00:35:27,622 it's, it's not that uniform. 793 00:35:27,708 --> 00:35:28,739 Yes, that's a good point. 794 00:35:28,778 --> 00:35:30,583 In 2nd Peter chapter 3, 795 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:31,726 it talks about 796 00:35:31,765 --> 00:35:33,234 people in the later days saying, 797 00:35:33,259 --> 00:35:34,705 "Where is the promise of His coming? 798 00:35:34,730 --> 00:35:36,501 For all the things continuing as they were 799 00:35:36,540 --> 00:35:37,845 from the beginning of creation". 800 00:35:37,876 --> 00:35:39,453 - That concept that... - Uh-huh, uh-huh. 801 00:35:39,478 --> 00:35:42,187 what you see in the present, what's happening now,... 802 00:35:42,257 --> 00:35:44,001 what's happening in the creek down below, 803 00:35:44,033 --> 00:35:45,851 what's happening in every place on the Earth 804 00:35:45,876 --> 00:35:47,259 is the way it has always been. 805 00:35:47,322 --> 00:35:49,511 It has always been for all of Earth history. 806 00:35:49,574 --> 00:35:50,918 The passage goes on to say, 807 00:35:50,957 --> 00:35:52,486 "For this, they're willingly 808 00:35:52,511 --> 00:35:53,660 - ignorant. - Uh-huh. 809 00:35:53,715 --> 00:35:56,463 They are not just ignorant of these truths, 810 00:35:56,488 --> 00:35:59,074 they're purposely rejecting these truths, 811 00:35:59,105 --> 00:36:01,302 and lists of the Creation... 812 00:36:01,365 --> 00:36:02,467 and the Flood. 813 00:36:02,529 --> 00:36:05,492 These are apparently events, according to the Bible, 814 00:36:05,562 --> 00:36:07,279 that aren't like the present. 815 00:36:07,314 --> 00:36:07,992 Right. 816 00:36:08,017 --> 00:36:10,837 And the neat thing is that's what we see here. 817 00:36:10,892 --> 00:36:14,361 That cliff isn't actually in place. 818 00:36:14,439 --> 00:36:17,769 That cliff, it belongs about a 1,000 feet up. 819 00:36:17,810 --> 00:36:20,466 - It slid down to its current location. - Uh-huh. 820 00:36:20,505 --> 00:36:22,286 - That's a pretty big bolder. - That's huge. 821 00:36:22,311 --> 00:36:25,434 Okay now, now, what kind of process in the present... 822 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,235 slides blocks that big down? 823 00:36:28,279 --> 00:36:30,774 - This thing continues for a mile. - Uh-huh. 824 00:36:30,890 --> 00:36:33,375 - Uh-huh. - But inside those rocks... 825 00:36:33,416 --> 00:36:35,484 are yet, further evidence of an event... 826 00:36:35,509 --> 00:36:37,556 before that, it's even bigger, 827 00:36:37,612 --> 00:36:40,682 - even more unlike the present. - Uh-huh. 828 00:36:40,814 --> 00:36:45,129 And then, inside those rocks, are also fossils of a time period... 829 00:36:45,183 --> 00:36:46,814 - that's very different from the present. - Uh-huh. 830 00:36:46,839 --> 00:36:48,604 So that, according to the claim of Scripture 831 00:36:48,629 --> 00:36:50,386 and according to my own experience... 832 00:36:50,433 --> 00:36:52,505 you can't use the present to... 833 00:36:52,583 --> 00:36:54,708 to judge the past, to understand the past. 834 00:36:54,733 --> 00:36:57,355 But if you go all the way back to the beginning, you'll realize... 835 00:36:57,380 --> 00:36:58,849 that the Bible lays out... 836 00:36:58,904 --> 00:37:01,390 what I would call epochs of Earth history, 837 00:37:01,415 --> 00:37:02,834 - Major occurence of time? - periods just, 838 00:37:02,859 --> 00:37:04,514 just different things happening 839 00:37:04,539 --> 00:37:06,183 during each of these epochs. 840 00:37:06,218 --> 00:37:08,765 But if you live in anyone of the other epochs,... 841 00:37:08,821 --> 00:37:11,058 - you would never understand... - Hhh. 842 00:37:11,104 --> 00:37:13,478 the previous epoch, because they're so different. 843 00:37:13,603 --> 00:37:16,681 The first one is the creation itself. 844 00:37:16,775 --> 00:37:20,205 In six days, God created the entire universe. 845 00:37:20,260 --> 00:37:22,680 He created the planets and the stars. 846 00:37:22,705 --> 00:37:26,113 And He stretched out the universe with His outstretch arm. 847 00:37:26,158 --> 00:37:28,516 That's obviously not happening today. 848 00:37:28,541 --> 00:37:30,737 - Yeah. - He's not creating planets. 849 00:37:30,821 --> 00:37:32,987 In fact, at the end of that passage, 850 00:37:33,012 --> 00:37:34,488 it says He ended... 851 00:37:34,551 --> 00:37:36,512 - His creation work. - Hhh. 852 00:37:36,653 --> 00:37:40,147 And then we move into what I call the Edenian Epoch, 853 00:37:40,264 --> 00:37:43,930 the period of time when Adam and Eve are in the garden of Eden. 854 00:37:43,969 --> 00:37:46,049 - And it's very different from the present. - Right. 855 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,172 We get the impression from that passage, 856 00:37:48,203 --> 00:37:50,539 for example, that Adam and Eve if they had not sinned... 857 00:37:50,564 --> 00:37:51,680 would have lived forever. 858 00:37:51,711 --> 00:37:55,299 It's hard to even conceive of human being living forever. 859 00:37:55,330 --> 00:37:56,768 - So it's a different world. - True. 860 00:37:56,793 --> 00:37:58,368 - Wildly different. - Uh-huh. Uh-huh. 861 00:37:58,395 --> 00:38:00,273 How long it lasts? We do not know. 862 00:38:00,308 --> 00:38:03,247 But it suddenly terminated with Adam and Eve 863 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,879 eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. 864 00:38:05,904 --> 00:38:08,279 - Rebelling the... - And God cursing the creation. 865 00:38:08,304 --> 00:38:09,545 - He changed the rules - Uh-huh. 866 00:38:09,570 --> 00:38:10,999 in the, in the universe. 867 00:38:11,033 --> 00:38:14,164 Now, no longer is the sun gonna be able to burn forever. 868 00:38:14,226 --> 00:38:16,328 No longer are we gonna be able to live forever. 869 00:38:16,383 --> 00:38:18,430 So it's hard for us to even imagine... 870 00:38:18,455 --> 00:38:19,797 - Theory. - what that would be like... 871 00:38:19,822 --> 00:38:21,531 because we only see the laws... 872 00:38:21,556 --> 00:38:23,803 And we wouldn't have come to that conclusion 873 00:38:23,828 --> 00:38:25,789 - if we didn't have the Word of God. - Hhh, it's true if we didn't have this... 874 00:38:25,829 --> 00:38:27,939 With, and, and that's what I think the Word of God 875 00:38:27,964 --> 00:38:29,494 - has been given to us for. - Right. 876 00:38:29,541 --> 00:38:32,900 So we slide into the third epoch of time, 877 00:38:32,925 --> 00:38:34,833 what I call the Ante-Diluvian period, 878 00:38:34,865 --> 00:38:37,480 the period before the flood and after the fall of man. 879 00:38:37,505 --> 00:38:38,275 Uh-huh. 880 00:38:38,314 --> 00:38:41,243 It's a world that's different than the present. 881 00:38:41,275 --> 00:38:43,558 It's gotten the same natural laws going on. 882 00:38:43,583 --> 00:38:44,229 Uh-huh. 883 00:38:44,254 --> 00:38:45,754 But it's a different set of critters, 884 00:38:45,779 --> 00:38:47,386 - a different set of plants. - Yeah. 885 00:38:47,411 --> 00:38:49,066 It's a little warmer Earth. 886 00:38:49,097 --> 00:38:51,410 The continents are in different positions 887 00:38:51,435 --> 00:38:53,011 from what they are now. 888 00:38:53,043 --> 00:38:55,543 It looks significantly different. 889 00:38:55,597 --> 00:38:58,037 Well, and that's what we see in, in Peter, 890 00:38:58,061 --> 00:38:59,569 where it talks about... 891 00:38:59,636 --> 00:39:01,662 that world being destroyed. 892 00:39:01,698 --> 00:39:04,928 So, the Flood was not just soaking everything. 893 00:39:04,967 --> 00:39:07,637 This was a radical, radical change, wasn't it? 894 00:39:07,662 --> 00:39:10,992 Yes, if we're right about what we've understood so far, 895 00:39:11,055 --> 00:39:13,078 we got continents moving, 896 00:39:13,125 --> 00:39:15,687 smashing together, creating mountains. 897 00:39:15,722 --> 00:39:18,904 The mountains are rising to tens of thousands of feet. 898 00:39:18,966 --> 00:39:22,349 You got water washing across the entire continents. 899 00:39:22,412 --> 00:39:26,693 We're, we're reaping tens of, of thousands of feet of sediment 900 00:39:26,728 --> 00:39:28,474 off of the old continents... 901 00:39:28,529 --> 00:39:32,289 and then depositing thousands of feet of sediment on top of them again. 902 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:33,334 - Yeah. - It's... 903 00:39:33,367 --> 00:39:36,792 We're looking at earthquakes of astonishing power. 904 00:39:36,827 --> 00:39:39,704 So this changed then from the... 905 00:39:39,729 --> 00:39:42,407 what you call the Ante-Diluvian epoch, 906 00:39:42,470 --> 00:39:45,580 now into uh, the post-Flood... 907 00:39:45,665 --> 00:39:48,509 Basically, the, the Earth has gotten to recover... 908 00:39:48,548 --> 00:39:49,806 from a global Flood. 909 00:39:49,860 --> 00:39:51,712 The atmosphere has gotten to recover. 910 00:39:51,743 --> 00:39:54,237 The geology, the rocks have to recover. 911 00:39:54,269 --> 00:39:57,181 Plants and animals have to spread across the Earth. 912 00:39:57,216 --> 00:39:58,576 You got lots of water, 913 00:39:58,638 --> 00:40:01,779 humongous earthquake, humongous volcanoes. 914 00:40:01,810 --> 00:40:04,037 And more or less, that period of recovery... 915 00:40:04,092 --> 00:40:05,662 is a slow... 916 00:40:05,701 --> 00:40:07,199 decrease in intensity... 917 00:40:07,224 --> 00:40:08,934 and frequency of those things. 918 00:40:08,959 --> 00:40:12,599 So would it be in that period that we would see the Ice Age? 919 00:40:12,638 --> 00:40:13,646 For example? 920 00:40:13,709 --> 00:40:16,326 Yes. That's ironically, 921 00:40:16,357 --> 00:40:18,357 the Ice Age turns out to be, 922 00:40:18,382 --> 00:40:19,516 in our modeling, 923 00:40:19,563 --> 00:40:22,607 a consequence of the heating of water... 924 00:40:22,686 --> 00:40:23,951 during the flood. 925 00:40:23,990 --> 00:40:25,922 The water is evaporating off the oceans. 926 00:40:25,947 --> 00:40:27,547 - That cools the oceans. - Uh-huh. 927 00:40:27,578 --> 00:40:29,625 The water is then moving over the continents 928 00:40:29,650 --> 00:40:32,219 and dropping enormous volumes of water. 929 00:40:32,250 --> 00:40:35,437 Now in certain places, the rain is gonna come down as snow. 930 00:40:35,500 --> 00:40:37,375 - They're coming down so rapidly - Okay. 931 00:40:37,384 --> 00:40:39,172 and without break, 932 00:40:39,219 --> 00:40:42,289 that can't melt and accumulates into thick... 933 00:40:42,336 --> 00:40:44,039 - sequences of ice... - Uh-huh. 934 00:40:44,078 --> 00:40:46,196 - until they're miles thick. - Uh-huh. 935 00:40:46,229 --> 00:40:48,547 And then when the oceans have cooled enough 936 00:40:48,572 --> 00:40:51,383 that that rain generation system has stopped,... 937 00:40:51,430 --> 00:40:55,237 then those glaciers then collapse under their own weight, 938 00:40:55,291 --> 00:40:58,245 melt back to the current position, and they're continuing to melt. 939 00:40:58,284 --> 00:41:00,377 Now this thing global warming, it is. 940 00:41:00,403 --> 00:41:03,598 It's recovering, the Earth is still recovering from the flood. 941 00:41:03,684 --> 00:41:08,686 So that was really a fairly tumultuous era uh, right then... 942 00:41:08,757 --> 00:41:11,476 and but then you have one final epoch. 943 00:41:11,569 --> 00:41:14,460 - So the modern epoch is... - Uh-huh. 944 00:41:14,485 --> 00:41:16,633 you can study present processeses 945 00:41:16,665 --> 00:41:17,986 and understand things... 946 00:41:18,016 --> 00:41:20,055 fairly literally back to... 947 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:20,665 Yeah. 948 00:41:20,690 --> 00:41:22,481 where within a couple centuries of the Flood. 949 00:41:22,516 --> 00:41:25,626 And so that would leave one to think that these processes, 950 00:41:25,651 --> 00:41:27,432 if you take it all the way back. 951 00:41:27,457 --> 00:41:28,604 - Precisely. - You're right. 952 00:41:28,643 --> 00:41:31,434 You, you take the present processes and extend them into the back. 953 00:41:31,459 --> 00:41:33,700 And, and that's what 2nd Peter says. 954 00:41:33,725 --> 00:41:35,020 That's the error people make. 955 00:41:35,051 --> 00:41:36,270 It's reasonable. 956 00:41:36,293 --> 00:41:38,645 Take the present and extend it into the past, 957 00:41:38,676 --> 00:41:40,175 not unreasonable. 958 00:41:40,215 --> 00:41:42,497 So you need to go to the Bible... 959 00:41:42,575 --> 00:41:45,028 to find out the necessary information 960 00:41:45,067 --> 00:41:46,723 - to, to reconstruct it. - Uh-huh. Yeah. 961 00:41:46,786 --> 00:41:48,527 And looking at the other way,... 962 00:41:48,582 --> 00:41:50,230 if you start from the Bible,... 963 00:41:50,269 --> 00:41:52,800 You only get the beginning of the story. 964 00:41:52,831 --> 00:41:53,441 Right. 965 00:41:53,466 --> 00:41:56,331 God has given us the ability to read the rocks 966 00:41:56,356 --> 00:41:58,675 - and fill in the rest of the story. - Yeah. 967 00:41:58,706 --> 00:42:01,255 And we need to, to fully understand the Flood, 968 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:02,802 we start with the Bible. 969 00:42:02,919 --> 00:42:04,231 But then we go to the rocks. 970 00:42:04,256 --> 00:42:06,239 Speak to the rocks and they shall tell... 971 00:42:06,264 --> 00:42:06,840 Right. 972 00:42:06,865 --> 00:42:08,841 what has happened in the past. 973 00:42:09,849 --> 00:42:11,278 Kurt made a good point. 974 00:42:11,325 --> 00:42:13,769 The Bible records historical events... 975 00:42:13,794 --> 00:42:16,671 but it doesn't explain how those events happened. 976 00:42:16,812 --> 00:42:19,030 That's what these scientists were doing. 977 00:42:19,077 --> 00:42:21,030 They were trying to interpret the evidence 978 00:42:21,055 --> 00:42:23,069 in the light of biblical history. 979 00:42:23,413 --> 00:42:26,569 But Kurt said there was evidence inside the rocks. 980 00:42:26,632 --> 00:42:28,569 What was that evidence? 981 00:42:39,503 --> 00:42:41,355 I love coming to the Natural History Museums. 982 00:42:41,380 --> 00:42:45,230 Uh, uh, for me as a paleontologist, it's like a chance to go to a zoo. 983 00:42:45,308 --> 00:42:48,091 That's all the animals that used to live before the Flood. 984 00:42:48,122 --> 00:42:48,677 Uh-huh. 985 00:42:48,708 --> 00:42:50,654 It's like a chance to step back in time. 986 00:42:50,682 --> 00:42:52,443 It is like a zoo, except they are not alive. 987 00:42:52,460 --> 00:42:53,607 - They're all dead. - Right, I know. 988 00:42:53,632 --> 00:42:54,505 And they don't smell. 989 00:42:54,537 --> 00:42:56,130 - So that is pretty good. - Yeah. 990 00:42:56,229 --> 00:42:58,794 And, and the Natural History Museum isn't just about... 991 00:42:58,865 --> 00:43:00,583 telling us what was there. 992 00:43:00,622 --> 00:43:03,364 It's also trying to give us a story line. 993 00:43:03,389 --> 00:43:03,987 - Right? - Uh-huh. 994 00:43:04,021 --> 00:43:05,107 And we... 995 00:43:05,145 --> 00:43:07,534 we got two possibilities, we got these two paradigms 996 00:43:07,559 --> 00:43:10,458 between a naturalistic view and a, a biblical view. 997 00:43:10,497 --> 00:43:12,575 And all the Natural History Museums in the country, 998 00:43:12,614 --> 00:43:13,848 most of them around the world, 999 00:43:13,879 --> 00:43:14,934 all give you just... 1000 00:43:14,965 --> 00:43:16,678 - one of those views. - Uh-huh. 1001 00:43:16,703 --> 00:43:20,625 Only giving you a naturalistic old Earth view of the world. 1002 00:43:20,651 --> 00:43:22,261 But the same data,... 1003 00:43:22,331 --> 00:43:23,550 this dinosaur, 1004 00:43:23,581 --> 00:43:25,386 is able to be understood 1005 00:43:25,432 --> 00:43:27,206 in an alternate paradigm. 1006 00:43:27,268 --> 00:43:29,847 So when I'm thinking about these types of creatures, 1007 00:43:29,872 --> 00:43:32,511 I'm thinking about a world just right before the Flood. 1008 00:43:32,536 --> 00:43:35,034 I mean, this is a real picture of a violent world. 1009 00:43:35,059 --> 00:43:36,253 - Yeah. And... - Yeah. 1010 00:43:36,278 --> 00:43:38,634 This is why God said: "Behold, the end of all flush". 1011 00:43:38,659 --> 00:43:40,249 - It wasn't just mankind. - Uh-huh. 1012 00:43:40,296 --> 00:43:42,865 Man and all the animals on which we rule... 1013 00:43:42,900 --> 00:43:45,358 - are juged at the time of the Flood. - Uh-huh. Yeah. 1014 00:43:45,744 --> 00:43:49,145 Well, Marcus, can you kind of give us an overall picture... 1015 00:43:49,221 --> 00:43:52,713 of the fossils and how all these stuffs fit together? 1016 00:43:52,738 --> 00:43:53,392 Yeah. 1017 00:43:53,424 --> 00:43:55,908 Fossils tend to be found in distinct layers where the... 1018 00:43:55,939 --> 00:43:58,267 very, very large numbers that have been destroyed. 1019 00:43:58,322 --> 00:43:59,799 Untold billions. 1020 00:44:00,049 --> 00:44:01,510 And so every time we see 1021 00:44:01,549 --> 00:44:03,416 a layer of rock that this thick,... 1022 00:44:03,478 --> 00:44:06,775 we're thinking about an event that probably took minutes... 1023 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:07,907 - to, to make. Not... - Hhh. 1024 00:44:07,916 --> 00:44:09,174 thousands of years. 1025 00:44:09,203 --> 00:44:11,166 Minutes for just this one package of rocks. 1026 00:44:11,191 --> 00:44:12,549 Sometimes, even seconds. 1027 00:44:12,580 --> 00:44:15,121 Now, where these pulses of water from the Flood are... 1028 00:44:15,168 --> 00:44:16,809 moving over the continents, 1029 00:44:16,848 --> 00:44:18,444 grabbing ecosystems, 1030 00:44:18,469 --> 00:44:22,082 or dragging marine ones up from, from deeper in the ocean... 1031 00:44:22,123 --> 00:44:23,600 and pulling them onto land. 1032 00:44:23,632 --> 00:44:25,873 And as one gets deposited, and the waves come back, 1033 00:44:25,898 --> 00:44:28,709 They start pulling and piling additional stuffs on top of that. 1034 00:44:28,734 --> 00:44:32,782 And it's, it's a graveyard on top of a graveyard on top of a graveyard. 1035 00:44:32,900 --> 00:44:35,595 It's, it's a sort of thing that speaks to a catastrophe, 1036 00:44:35,620 --> 00:44:37,470 not the sort of thing where the fossil record 1037 00:44:37,494 --> 00:44:38,986 is gradually accumulating 1038 00:44:39,017 --> 00:44:40,728 bone by bone, shell by shell, 1039 00:44:40,753 --> 00:44:41,712 - little by little, - Uh-huh. 1040 00:44:41,736 --> 00:44:43,392 over untold eons of time. 1041 00:44:43,628 --> 00:44:45,602 So you're saying that we have these... 1042 00:44:45,627 --> 00:44:48,259 uh, marine fossils all over, 1043 00:44:48,284 --> 00:44:49,994 - even on mountains. - Yes. 1044 00:44:50,041 --> 00:44:52,137 Yeah, further back over uh, in the Museum, 1045 00:44:52,162 --> 00:44:53,957 they got sections with things like mosasaurs, 1046 00:44:53,981 --> 00:44:56,035 - big swimming reptiles. - Hhh. 1047 00:44:56,137 --> 00:44:57,973 Mosasaurs are globally distributed. 1048 00:44:57,998 --> 00:45:00,435 And, and they're distributed on continents. 1049 00:45:00,460 --> 00:45:02,113 So looking at these things, you're saying: 1050 00:45:02,138 --> 00:45:03,608 what is it that has the power, 1051 00:45:03,633 --> 00:45:05,335 what is it that has, has a capacity 1052 00:45:05,366 --> 00:45:06,677 to take the marine world 1053 00:45:06,702 --> 00:45:08,787 and throw it on top of the continents 1054 00:45:08,819 --> 00:45:10,467 in such violent and destructive manner. 1055 00:45:10,501 --> 00:45:12,581 And, and the Flood makes perfect sense with this. 1056 00:45:12,628 --> 00:45:14,261 When we were in the Grand Canyon, 1057 00:45:14,300 --> 00:45:16,667 we saw that Great Unconformity. 1058 00:45:16,692 --> 00:45:18,464 - Yeah. - And there were no fossils 1059 00:45:18,496 --> 00:45:20,043 to speak of really below that. 1060 00:45:20,068 --> 00:45:22,757 And then all of the sudden, we start getting a lot. 1061 00:45:22,782 --> 00:45:25,612 What, what does that say to you as a paleontologist? 1062 00:45:25,690 --> 00:45:27,414 Well, the Great Unconformity is telling me 1063 00:45:27,439 --> 00:45:29,409 that there's some sort of massive erosion 1064 00:45:29,434 --> 00:45:31,636 and sheering that is happening across the continent. 1065 00:45:31,667 --> 00:45:34,595 And then once we start getting to those nice sedimentary rocks, 1066 00:45:34,620 --> 00:45:36,622 they have all the wonderful fossils in them. 1067 00:45:36,686 --> 00:45:39,816 The pattern uh, starts to emerge. 1068 00:45:39,841 --> 00:45:43,148 The ecosystem that has the first animal tenet 1069 00:45:43,173 --> 00:45:44,562 shows up very suddenly. 1070 00:45:44,601 --> 00:45:46,111 In conventional Paleontology, 1071 00:45:46,136 --> 00:45:48,189 they call this the Cambrianic Explosion. 1072 00:45:48,281 --> 00:45:50,593 It's the first appearance of a wide diversity 1073 00:45:50,624 --> 00:45:52,470 of different types of marine animals. 1074 00:45:52,501 --> 00:45:54,953 All of the sudden, you have this complex and whole ecosystem 1075 00:45:54,978 --> 00:45:57,220 that shows up, basically, out of nowhere. 1076 00:45:57,259 --> 00:45:59,986 Now that makes perfect sense from the Creation and Flood perspective 1077 00:46:00,017 --> 00:46:02,594 because the Flood is about destroying ecosystems. 1078 00:46:02,658 --> 00:46:04,181 Whereas in the evolutionary view, 1079 00:46:04,212 --> 00:46:06,994 uh, these ecosystems are going to have to arise 1080 00:46:07,033 --> 00:46:08,478 a little more gradually 1081 00:46:08,517 --> 00:46:10,910 as organism diversify evolve 1082 00:46:10,935 --> 00:46:13,292 and respond to one another in their environment. 1083 00:46:13,339 --> 00:46:14,527 But that's not what you see. 1084 00:46:14,552 --> 00:46:16,089 Instead, you see... 1085 00:46:16,176 --> 00:46:17,949 an explosion of life... 1086 00:46:18,074 --> 00:46:19,777 that is complex, 1087 00:46:19,808 --> 00:46:20,816 whole, 1088 00:46:20,847 --> 00:46:22,943 the ecosystem is integrated with one another. 1089 00:46:22,968 --> 00:46:25,357 You can see where all the different organisms fit, 1090 00:46:25,435 --> 00:46:27,084 - Uh-huh. - with respect to one another. 1091 00:46:27,124 --> 00:46:30,138 And that's just the first time that that happens. 1092 00:46:30,318 --> 00:46:32,576 Every time you move up in the geological column, 1093 00:46:32,607 --> 00:46:34,007 in this fossil record, 1094 00:46:34,046 --> 00:46:37,132 you start seeing snapshots of more and more ecosystems. 1095 00:46:37,164 --> 00:46:39,336 You got one ecosystem that is destroyed, 1096 00:46:39,391 --> 00:46:40,555 and then you got another one. 1097 00:46:40,573 --> 00:46:42,234 It's gotten slightly different creatures, 1098 00:46:42,281 --> 00:46:44,305 there're different interactions going on. 1099 00:46:44,351 --> 00:46:46,242 And as the floodwaters move higher and higher, 1100 00:46:46,267 --> 00:46:48,158 they're getting closer and closer to the shore, 1101 00:46:48,216 --> 00:46:50,584 destroying more and more organisms in the shoreline, 1102 00:46:50,609 --> 00:46:52,921 - and eventually up onto land. - Yeah. 1103 00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,507 So I, I think I see what you're saying here. 1104 00:46:55,536 --> 00:46:57,499 And that is, it's, it's the paradigm 1105 00:46:57,539 --> 00:46:59,164 that uh, we're all taught, 1106 00:46:59,182 --> 00:47:00,749 that conventional paradigm... 1107 00:47:00,804 --> 00:47:03,421 is trying to tell us that the fossil record is... 1108 00:47:03,460 --> 00:47:07,465 an evolutionary picture of life as it's developing... 1109 00:47:07,518 --> 00:47:11,104 as oppose to the Genesis paradigm that is saying no, 1110 00:47:11,129 --> 00:47:13,503 all of that life, all the complexity of life 1111 00:47:13,528 --> 00:47:15,019 - already was there... - Yeah. 1112 00:47:15,044 --> 00:47:18,090 and now, we're looking at the graveyard of all that life. 1113 00:47:18,115 --> 00:47:19,170 Exactly. 1114 00:47:19,195 --> 00:47:20,839 Well, what are some other data 1115 00:47:20,864 --> 00:47:24,245 that you're seeing that, that convinces you of this paradigm? 1116 00:47:24,272 --> 00:47:27,897 Sure. Well, one very curious situation with the fossil record, 1117 00:47:27,922 --> 00:47:30,374 so if you're thinking vertically about things, 1118 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,639 it, it's not the hard parts of the animal, 1119 00:47:32,699 --> 00:47:34,855 but the trackways. 1120 00:47:34,903 --> 00:47:36,144 They are the footprints. 1121 00:47:36,186 --> 00:47:38,808 This is a pattern that we see in several different groups, 1122 00:47:38,835 --> 00:47:42,245 where their footprints are first and body parts are later. 1123 00:47:42,277 --> 00:47:43,041 Uh-huh. 1124 00:47:43,066 --> 00:47:45,525 For the trilobites, for the amphibians, for the dinosaurs, 1125 00:47:45,550 --> 00:47:48,284 the first time I find evidence of them in the fossil record 1126 00:47:48,330 --> 00:47:49,644 is from trackways, 1127 00:47:49,691 --> 00:47:51,511 - not hard parts. - Interesting. 1128 00:47:51,655 --> 00:47:53,097 From an old Earth perspective, 1129 00:47:53,122 --> 00:47:56,011 that's really weird and hard to grapple with, 1130 00:47:56,042 --> 00:47:58,168 because you have millions of years... 1131 00:47:58,203 --> 00:48:00,135 between the trackway production... 1132 00:48:00,182 --> 00:48:01,236 and ultimately, 1133 00:48:01,261 --> 00:48:02,681 - the animal that made it. - Uh-huh. 1134 00:48:02,706 --> 00:48:05,010 But that obviously doesn't make a whole lot of sense. 1135 00:48:05,035 --> 00:48:06,877 Uh, because if there're trackways, there are animals. 1136 00:48:06,894 --> 00:48:09,213 And these animals have bones and teeth and shells to them. 1137 00:48:09,244 --> 00:48:10,924 Why aren't they fossilized? 1138 00:48:10,955 --> 00:48:13,142 Instead, the pattern is telling us something different. 1139 00:48:13,167 --> 00:48:14,314 There's no time... 1140 00:48:14,361 --> 00:48:17,064 between when somebody leaves a track and when somebody gets buried. 1141 00:48:17,111 --> 00:48:19,650 But the fact that those trackways are still there, 1142 00:48:19,675 --> 00:48:22,001 that, that should tell us something as well, shouldn't it? 1143 00:48:22,026 --> 00:48:23,760 One, it tells us that the deposition 1144 00:48:23,785 --> 00:48:26,432 or the, the placement of the next layer on top of them 1145 00:48:26,463 --> 00:48:28,284 had to happen very, very quickly. 1146 00:48:28,353 --> 00:48:31,814 Because, again, you go on to uh, a beach and you walk in the sand, 1147 00:48:31,877 --> 00:48:33,822 your trackways are, are destroyed 1148 00:48:33,854 --> 00:48:35,564 - very, very quickly. - Uh-huh. Uh-huh. 1149 00:48:35,611 --> 00:48:38,603 But the fossil record is showing us something very different from today. 1150 00:48:38,659 --> 00:48:40,033 This is death in a moment. 1151 00:48:40,058 --> 00:48:41,346 - Yes. - This is death in an instant. 1152 00:48:41,371 --> 00:48:44,203 And we're talking about a, a world that was complex, 1153 00:48:44,228 --> 00:48:45,635 whole, integrated, 1154 00:48:45,705 --> 00:48:49,275 and the Flood is destroying that world, sequentially,... 1155 00:48:49,300 --> 00:48:51,838 - and burying it in a vertical fashion. - Uh-huh. Yeah. 1156 00:48:51,908 --> 00:48:53,036 And so I think, 1157 00:48:53,084 --> 00:48:56,029 looking at the fossil record as a record of life is... 1158 00:48:56,068 --> 00:48:57,263 partly correct. 1159 00:48:57,318 --> 00:48:58,943 But it's not about life development. 1160 00:48:58,968 --> 00:49:02,099 It's about life attempts to survive an event... 1161 00:49:02,138 --> 00:49:04,672 that ultimately consumed all of them. 1162 00:49:04,771 --> 00:49:06,101 Well, that would make sense then, 1163 00:49:06,126 --> 00:49:10,766 because, when God was talking about destroying the Earth... 1164 00:49:10,791 --> 00:49:11,877 uh, with the flood, 1165 00:49:11,902 --> 00:49:14,437 it wasn't just the destruction of human life, 1166 00:49:14,462 --> 00:49:17,019 it was the destruction of all life. 1167 00:49:17,044 --> 00:49:19,367 And so, now the world we live in 1168 00:49:19,392 --> 00:49:20,655 is, as you said, 1169 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:21,687 radically different 1170 00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:23,328 - than what that was before. - Yeah. 1171 00:49:23,359 --> 00:49:25,828 When we look at the T-Rex, when we look at the Mosasaur, 1172 00:49:25,853 --> 00:49:26,953 when we look at... 1173 00:49:27,008 --> 00:49:29,219 uh, all these animals as ferocious carnivores, 1174 00:49:29,244 --> 00:49:30,247 and they really are. 1175 00:49:30,303 --> 00:49:31,779 I mean, they terrify. 1176 00:49:31,804 --> 00:49:34,825 But that's not what they were initially created to be. 1177 00:49:34,872 --> 00:49:36,724 And so these sharp teeth, 1178 00:49:36,771 --> 00:49:38,217 these devastating claws, 1179 00:49:38,247 --> 00:49:39,997 and the behaviors that go along with them, 1180 00:49:40,036 --> 00:49:41,958 all seem to be part of the curse. 1181 00:49:41,990 --> 00:49:43,287 And part of that is genetic. 1182 00:49:43,333 --> 00:49:45,966 Part of it might also be just thru some modifications. 1183 00:49:45,991 --> 00:49:48,068 - But, uh, these organisms... - Uh-huh. 1184 00:49:48,130 --> 00:49:49,702 by the time we see them, 1185 00:49:49,741 --> 00:49:51,286 and it is important for us to remember 1186 00:49:51,312 --> 00:49:52,849 when we come to a Natural History Museum, 1187 00:49:52,874 --> 00:49:54,959 that you're not seeing the world at creation week. 1188 00:49:54,984 --> 00:49:55,593 Right. 1189 00:49:55,624 --> 00:49:56,765 You're seeing the world... 1190 00:49:56,802 --> 00:49:58,727 as it existed in the Flood. 1191 00:49:58,797 --> 00:50:01,852 And that world was the one that was filled with violence, 1192 00:50:01,879 --> 00:50:04,984 and was, was a pretty terrible place to live. 1193 00:50:05,766 --> 00:50:09,491 I realized that the billions of creatures buried in those layers 1194 00:50:09,516 --> 00:50:13,031 are a silent testimony to God's global judgment. 1195 00:50:13,125 --> 00:50:17,445 I decided I wanted to see one of those layers of fossils for myself. 1196 00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,563 If dinosaurs died suddenly in the Flood, 1197 00:50:20,642 --> 00:50:22,789 wouldn't that be obvious? 1198 00:50:29,225 --> 00:50:30,811 What we're dealing with here, 1199 00:50:30,836 --> 00:50:32,866 this is in the Lance Formation. 1200 00:50:32,912 --> 00:50:37,125 This is a "Upper Cretaceous" sedimentary deposit. 1201 00:50:37,170 --> 00:50:40,068 And what we have here is what's called the bone-beds. 1202 00:50:40,093 --> 00:50:42,681 It's, it's, an accumulation of bones... 1203 00:50:42,728 --> 00:50:44,080 that's about a meter thick, 1204 00:50:44,109 --> 00:50:45,564 a little less than a meter, 1205 00:50:45,617 --> 00:50:46,853 and in this meter, 1206 00:50:46,878 --> 00:50:49,385 we find the bones present as a graded bed, 1207 00:50:49,416 --> 00:50:52,580 with little bones at the top and bigger bones at the bottom. 1208 00:50:52,799 --> 00:50:54,275 And you can see here,... 1209 00:50:54,322 --> 00:50:55,541 looks like,... 1210 00:50:55,601 --> 00:50:58,002 Erline is working on another vertebrate. 1211 00:50:58,027 --> 00:51:01,582 Here, this is a cervical vertebra of a duckbill dinosaur. 1212 00:51:01,613 --> 00:51:03,824 This is where the spinal cord goes. 1213 00:51:03,849 --> 00:51:05,460 - Right there. - Hhh. Uh-huh. 1214 00:51:05,499 --> 00:51:08,318 When I, when I look at these bones in the quarry, I... 1215 00:51:08,428 --> 00:51:10,498 I often I think of them as being... 1216 00:51:10,545 --> 00:51:12,340 - inside the animal alive. - Oh. 1217 00:51:12,373 --> 00:51:13,763 - And just imagine what is, - Sure. 1218 00:51:13,795 --> 00:51:14,939 what is like to be... 1219 00:51:14,964 --> 00:51:17,154 seeing these bones for the first time. 1220 00:51:17,337 --> 00:51:19,550 So, so this is just full of bones. 1221 00:51:19,581 --> 00:51:23,136 And, and it's not like we have to go looking for where the bones are. 1222 00:51:23,176 --> 00:51:26,214 We just have to sit down and start digging. 1223 00:51:27,379 --> 00:51:29,792 What is mainly different about... 1224 00:51:29,827 --> 00:51:31,829 the site that you're digging here, 1225 00:51:31,860 --> 00:51:33,665 as oppose to, what we would say, 1226 00:51:33,690 --> 00:51:36,337 a general dinosaur dig somewhere? 1227 00:51:36,921 --> 00:51:39,634 Well, there're, there're dinosaurs found all over the world, 1228 00:51:39,665 --> 00:51:42,306 but, this particular site is unique,... 1229 00:51:42,345 --> 00:51:44,923 in there is probably one of the largest 1230 00:51:44,978 --> 00:51:47,033 collections of bones in the world. 1231 00:51:47,133 --> 00:51:49,095 And there are the remains of, between, 1232 00:51:49,128 --> 00:51:51,871 I would say, between 5,000 and 10,000 animals, 1233 00:51:51,896 --> 00:51:54,183 each 20 to 40 feet long, 1234 00:51:54,214 --> 00:51:55,746 in this, in this deposit. 1235 00:51:55,790 --> 00:51:57,185 These are big animals, 1236 00:51:57,240 --> 00:51:59,091 - and there are a lot of them. - Uh-huh. 1237 00:51:59,154 --> 00:52:01,739 - Let's step back for just a second. - Okay. 1238 00:52:01,786 --> 00:52:05,258 Okay, so we had, we had a duckbill dinosaur 1239 00:52:05,289 --> 00:52:06,524 roaming around the Earth. 1240 00:52:06,555 --> 00:52:08,139 And all of the sudden, it dies. 1241 00:52:08,176 --> 00:52:09,796 Would it become a fossil? 1242 00:52:10,100 --> 00:52:13,843 Fossilization requires very special circumstances. 1243 00:52:13,868 --> 00:52:15,500 Normally, we know, 1244 00:52:15,571 --> 00:52:18,407 for example, if a coy..., if a coyote dies on the desert, 1245 00:52:18,432 --> 00:52:20,692 its, its body is soon gone. 1246 00:52:20,754 --> 00:52:23,696 Yet these bones are all perfectly preserved. 1247 00:52:23,721 --> 00:52:25,672 They have never been subjected to the weather, 1248 00:52:25,703 --> 00:52:27,391 they are just all there, They're... 1249 00:52:27,430 --> 00:52:30,500 Today, it would be very difficult to imagine how you could do that. 1250 00:52:30,549 --> 00:52:33,165 To some extent, we would really say that 1251 00:52:33,190 --> 00:52:35,221 to find a fossil is rare. 1252 00:52:35,252 --> 00:52:36,846 Eventhough, we have many, many fossils, 1253 00:52:36,871 --> 00:52:38,651 in terms of things that die, 1254 00:52:38,694 --> 00:52:41,080 - Right. - it's rare if it'd become fossilized. 1255 00:52:41,105 --> 00:52:41,877 It is rare. 1256 00:52:41,916 --> 00:52:44,432 - It requires special circumstances. - Uh-huh. 1257 00:52:44,463 --> 00:52:46,745 Not, not the least of which is the rapid burial. 1258 00:52:46,776 --> 00:52:47,432 Hhh. 1259 00:52:47,457 --> 00:52:49,842 These, these animals had to die... 1260 00:52:49,959 --> 00:52:52,826 and then their carcasses had to have time to rot. 1261 00:52:52,851 --> 00:52:55,686 So, we're talking days or weeks or months... 1262 00:52:55,732 --> 00:52:59,404 during which time, the, the bones and tissues 1263 00:52:59,429 --> 00:53:01,853 were either eaten away or rotten away. 1264 00:53:01,931 --> 00:53:04,126 and then the bones or remains 1265 00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,551 were deposited instantaneously in, in this environment. 1266 00:53:07,597 --> 00:53:09,386 Because they're in a graded bed 1267 00:53:09,411 --> 00:53:11,605 where big bones at the bottom and little bones at the top. 1268 00:53:11,630 --> 00:53:12,761 And you can see that here. 1269 00:53:12,786 --> 00:53:14,769 - The big bones are all down at the bottom. - Uh-huh. Uh-huh. 1270 00:53:14,794 --> 00:53:18,214 And when they start digging up here, they start to find small bones. 1271 00:53:18,254 --> 00:53:22,105 So that condition requires a sorting process. 1272 00:53:22,136 --> 00:53:25,871 It can only take place during a catastrophic emplacement. 1273 00:53:25,988 --> 00:53:28,785 So when we look at the dinosaur fossils, 1274 00:53:28,816 --> 00:53:31,287 rather than looking at them from the standpoint 1275 00:53:31,312 --> 00:53:33,412 that we have early dinosaurs, 1276 00:53:33,445 --> 00:53:36,701 then middle dinosaurs, and later dinosaurs, 1277 00:53:36,869 --> 00:53:38,095 you're looking at proof 1278 00:53:38,127 --> 00:53:40,650 from the perspective that all those dinosaurs 1279 00:53:40,674 --> 00:53:41,916 were in existence. 1280 00:53:41,947 --> 00:53:43,244 They were all living, 1281 00:53:43,291 --> 00:53:45,720 and then there was this huge catastrophe 1282 00:53:45,745 --> 00:53:47,193 that brought them to an end. 1283 00:53:47,248 --> 00:53:49,312 The dinosaurs are already dinosaurs 1284 00:53:49,337 --> 00:53:51,172 when they first, when they first appeared. 1285 00:53:51,197 --> 00:53:52,266 They looked just like... 1286 00:53:52,313 --> 00:53:55,180 anyone would sit, think of a dinosaur looked. 1287 00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:56,844 And this is a conundrum 1288 00:53:56,869 --> 00:53:59,555 for, for those who believe in the evolution of the dinosaurs. 1289 00:53:59,580 --> 00:54:02,931 But we hear a lot about transitional forms. 1290 00:54:02,973 --> 00:54:05,462 What's, what's the real story there? 1291 00:54:05,584 --> 00:54:07,937 Scientists have been able to... 1292 00:54:07,969 --> 00:54:11,249 lay out some forms they think are transitional, 1293 00:54:11,335 --> 00:54:15,759 and some of them are very interesting, some even challenging. 1294 00:54:15,876 --> 00:54:18,290 But, there are the exceptions to the rule. 1295 00:54:18,329 --> 00:54:20,784 The rule is there are no transitional fossils. 1296 00:54:20,809 --> 00:54:23,581 And what we find in the fossil record... 1297 00:54:23,644 --> 00:54:27,538 and contrary to Darwin's hopes, this is the rule,... 1298 00:54:27,598 --> 00:54:30,691 is that a form exists in the fossil record,... 1299 00:54:30,716 --> 00:54:32,748 it basically stays unchanged, 1300 00:54:32,773 --> 00:54:34,662 and it disappears from the fossil record 1301 00:54:34,701 --> 00:54:36,384 without him had been changed. 1302 00:54:36,460 --> 00:54:39,234 That has gotten to mean somethng besides evolution 1303 00:54:39,259 --> 00:54:40,644 because we don't never see 1304 00:54:40,669 --> 00:54:42,752 changes from this form into this form 1305 00:54:42,777 --> 00:54:45,040 in the, in the rocks themselves. 1306 00:54:45,228 --> 00:54:47,714 So it's coming from somewhere else. 1307 00:54:47,753 --> 00:54:51,908 It's a, it's a paradigm that is being imposed on the data... 1308 00:54:51,943 --> 00:54:53,394 rather than the data is... 1309 00:54:53,465 --> 00:54:55,472 - providing the paradigm. - Uh-huh. 1310 00:54:55,576 --> 00:54:58,925 So I think it's very easy for me to be a creationist 1311 00:54:58,950 --> 00:55:01,105 just based on my understanding of... 1312 00:55:01,136 --> 00:55:02,964 the complexity of life forms. 1313 00:55:03,021 --> 00:55:04,707 And when we look at the fossil record, 1314 00:55:04,740 --> 00:55:07,355 we can see the complexity is all there from the beginning 1315 00:55:07,371 --> 00:55:09,675 - and this, this begs a question of: - Uh-huh. 1316 00:55:09,714 --> 00:55:12,154 Where did all this complexity come from? 1317 00:55:12,216 --> 00:55:13,662 It's one thing to have faith. 1318 00:55:13,727 --> 00:55:15,383 I have faith that God... 1319 00:55:15,469 --> 00:55:16,618 was a creator, 1320 00:55:16,673 --> 00:55:19,374 but that's substantiated by what I see around me. 1321 00:55:19,406 --> 00:55:20,179 Uh-huh. 1322 00:55:20,210 --> 00:55:23,334 To say I have faith that, that evolution produced this... 1323 00:55:23,381 --> 00:55:26,147 when I can't even see how it could've happened, 1324 00:55:26,257 --> 00:55:27,475 that's blind faith. 1325 00:55:27,514 --> 00:55:30,327 - That's a leap in the dark. - That's a leap in the dark. 1326 00:55:31,789 --> 00:55:33,594 It seemed that everywhere I looked, 1327 00:55:33,649 --> 00:55:35,540 there was a growing body of evidence 1328 00:55:35,564 --> 00:55:38,422 that fits the historical record of Genesis. 1329 00:55:38,539 --> 00:55:40,263 It wasn't just one thing. 1330 00:55:40,329 --> 00:55:43,568 It was many things pointing in the same direction. 1331 00:55:43,639 --> 00:55:44,722 When I was with Art, 1332 00:55:44,753 --> 00:55:49,548 he told me about some recent discoveries of material inside dinosaur bones. 1333 00:55:49,591 --> 00:55:52,851 So I traveled to a lab in Arizona to talk to a scientist... 1334 00:55:52,913 --> 00:55:55,747 who is doing some of that research himself. 1335 00:55:59,650 --> 00:56:02,540 - This is a fragment of Triceratops horn. - Hhh. 1336 00:56:02,579 --> 00:56:04,134 Uh, when we pulled it out the ground, 1337 00:56:04,159 --> 00:56:05,329 it fragmented. 1338 00:56:05,361 --> 00:56:07,694 And then, of course, we had to continue to fragment it, 1339 00:56:07,729 --> 00:56:09,674 in order to do analysis of it. 1340 00:56:09,728 --> 00:56:11,281 Uh, in 2012, 1341 00:56:11,321 --> 00:56:14,820 the Creationist Research Society sponsored Mark Armitage and I 1342 00:56:14,836 --> 00:56:17,875 to go to the Hell Creek Formation in Montana, 1343 00:56:17,906 --> 00:56:21,336 which is very popular place for finding dinosaur bones, 1344 00:56:21,397 --> 00:56:23,265 and we instead dug out 1345 00:56:23,290 --> 00:56:27,394 a, almost, four foot long Triceratops brown horn. 1346 00:56:27,511 --> 00:56:30,534 Now, it's just in crumble pieces now. 1347 00:56:30,565 --> 00:56:32,470 So we can't really, you know, put it together 1348 00:56:32,495 --> 00:56:34,075 - and show you a horn. - Uh-huh. 1349 00:56:34,106 --> 00:56:36,325 But yet, you have to recognize that... 1350 00:56:36,388 --> 00:56:38,575 pieces susch as this,... 1351 00:56:38,685 --> 00:56:41,606 we have found tissue... 1352 00:56:41,778 --> 00:56:43,318 with cells,... 1353 00:56:43,372 --> 00:56:45,606 - Oh, that's amazing. - And potentially... 1354 00:56:45,692 --> 00:56:47,442 proteins such as collagen. 1355 00:56:47,497 --> 00:56:50,257 It's so difficult to understand 1356 00:56:50,288 --> 00:56:54,683 how you could have this material still in a dinosaur fossil... 1357 00:56:54,734 --> 00:56:58,041 that is supposed to be 65, 75, 1358 00:56:58,066 --> 00:56:59,431 - 80 million years of age, - Uh-huh. 1359 00:56:59,456 --> 00:57:04,361 because tissue, cells, proteins break down. 1360 00:57:04,416 --> 00:57:06,238 They don't just, they're not concrete. 1361 00:57:06,263 --> 00:57:08,825 They don't just exist for eons of time. 1362 00:57:08,856 --> 00:57:10,419 They break down. And, in fact,... 1363 00:57:10,474 --> 00:57:12,183 they tend to break down fairly quickly, 1364 00:57:12,208 --> 00:57:13,617 depending upon the conditions. 1365 00:57:13,656 --> 00:57:15,624 And certainly in Hell Creek,... 1366 00:57:15,694 --> 00:57:16,788 the conditions would be 1367 00:57:16,820 --> 00:57:19,359 warmed up, cooled down, warmed up, cooled down. 1368 00:57:19,397 --> 00:57:20,849 And any biochemist can tell you 1369 00:57:20,874 --> 00:57:23,781 that is the fastest way to destroy material. 1370 00:57:23,843 --> 00:57:26,836 It's difficult enough to envision it surviving 1371 00:57:26,861 --> 00:57:28,836 for 4 or 5000 years. 1372 00:57:28,861 --> 00:57:30,494 - But, 60 million years? - Hhh. 1373 00:57:30,519 --> 00:57:31,484 70 million years? 1374 00:57:31,511 --> 00:57:34,332 See, that really becomes very difficult to make 1375 00:57:34,341 --> 00:57:37,621 any kind of biochemical 1376 00:57:37,683 --> 00:57:40,193 - basis for how it could have survived. - Uh-huh. 1377 00:57:40,276 --> 00:57:43,849 Okay, so, once you find a, a,... 1378 00:57:43,897 --> 00:57:44,934 - a sample like this, - Uh-huh. 1379 00:57:44,959 --> 00:57:46,342 what do you do next? 1380 00:57:46,428 --> 00:57:50,608 So, what we do is we soak the fossil material 1381 00:57:50,633 --> 00:57:53,766 in a solution called E.D.T.A. 1382 00:57:53,805 --> 00:57:56,586 And what you'll have after dissolving the fossil, 1383 00:57:56,617 --> 00:57:57,768 the tissuewill be remaining 1384 00:57:57,795 --> 00:57:59,921 because the EDTA won't dissolve the tissue. 1385 00:57:59,961 --> 00:58:02,002 - Hhh. - So then I bring this over to... 1386 00:58:02,096 --> 00:58:04,299 uh, what we call a dissection... 1387 00:58:04,339 --> 00:58:06,049 - microscope. - Uh-huh. 1388 00:58:06,136 --> 00:58:08,654 This is, in essence, dissolved... 1389 00:58:08,709 --> 00:58:10,834 Triceratops horn. 1390 00:58:10,912 --> 00:58:12,084 Magnified... 1391 00:58:12,123 --> 00:58:13,693 And so, you can see what it looks like. 1392 00:58:13,734 --> 00:58:16,813 Just like of little, little pieces of rock. 1393 00:58:17,322 --> 00:58:19,608 Well, Kevin, what did you find then... 1394 00:58:19,647 --> 00:58:22,733 uh, when you, when you were looking at the sample 1395 00:58:22,772 --> 00:58:25,319 and you actually found some, some tissue? 1396 00:58:25,467 --> 00:58:27,303 Okay, here is what we found. 1397 00:58:27,381 --> 00:58:29,787 This is actually Triceratops tissue. 1398 00:58:29,842 --> 00:58:31,233 It's stretchable. 1399 00:58:31,303 --> 00:58:32,616 It's pliable. 1400 00:58:32,670 --> 00:58:34,397 - It's not an impression - Hhh. 1401 00:58:34,444 --> 00:58:36,999 of the soft part of the dinosaur. 1402 00:58:37,053 --> 00:58:38,743 This is truely soft. 1403 00:58:38,768 --> 00:58:39,803 It is squishy. 1404 00:58:39,828 --> 00:58:41,969 It is stretchable. It is tissue. 1405 00:58:41,994 --> 00:58:43,225 That blows your mind, huh? 1406 00:58:43,250 --> 00:58:44,314 Absolutely. 1407 00:58:44,349 --> 00:58:48,570 And if you look at them in the closer magnification,... 1408 00:58:49,148 --> 00:58:53,067 what we see then, this is using scanning electron microscopy, 1409 00:58:53,102 --> 00:58:57,088 you can see the extreme detail of the cells. 1410 00:58:57,213 --> 00:58:59,274 And that picture and this picture, 1411 00:58:59,299 --> 00:59:01,417 and particularly like, look at this picture... 1412 00:59:01,479 --> 00:59:03,262 we would not expect, 1413 00:59:03,309 --> 00:59:08,051 we didn't expect to see such enormous and elaborate detail. 1414 00:59:08,129 --> 00:59:10,808 I mean, these structures are incredibly small. 1415 00:59:10,833 --> 00:59:13,129 You know, this is our 20 micron bar here. 1416 00:59:13,161 --> 00:59:15,036 You see how small these structures are... 1417 00:59:15,075 --> 00:59:16,497 - still intact. - Yeah. 1418 00:59:16,522 --> 00:59:18,974 It would take very little to break those. 1419 00:59:19,009 --> 00:59:22,198 So at best, you would expect that all that would have broken off 1420 00:59:22,230 --> 00:59:23,605 - and been long gone. - Uh-huh. 1421 00:59:23,659 --> 00:59:26,700 So, that has, has to have... 1422 00:59:26,763 --> 00:59:29,191 shaken up the scientific community. 1423 00:59:29,230 --> 00:59:31,652 What has been the response to all of this? 1424 00:59:31,691 --> 00:59:33,427 The initial response, 1425 00:59:33,458 --> 00:59:36,700 when Dr. Schweitzer first published her work,... 1426 00:59:36,747 --> 00:59:40,593 which is what became very popularized in 2005, 1427 00:59:40,624 --> 00:59:42,772 it generated a lot of response. 1428 00:59:42,866 --> 00:59:46,412 And so initially, some of the reaction was rejection. 1429 00:59:46,447 --> 00:59:48,055 Oh, it's contamination. 1430 00:59:48,087 --> 00:59:48,876 You know, those, 1431 00:59:48,901 --> 00:59:50,470 - Oh. - that's not really dinosaur. 1432 00:59:50,524 --> 00:59:52,578 It's bacteria. 1433 00:59:52,626 --> 00:59:55,344 Because bacteria can look kind of strange sometimes. 1434 00:59:55,376 --> 00:59:59,232 So, you have a lot of proposals of what it could be. 1435 00:59:59,299 --> 01:00:04,199 And to her credit, Dr. Schweitzer did more work. 1436 01:00:04,246 --> 01:00:06,028 They began to find protein. 1437 01:00:06,059 --> 01:00:07,898 You break open some of these cells, 1438 01:00:07,933 --> 01:00:09,099 you look in them 1439 01:00:09,124 --> 01:00:12,833 at the matrix these cells are attached to and their protein. 1440 01:00:12,904 --> 01:00:15,371 Okay, so once that is uh, 1441 01:00:15,396 --> 01:00:16,951 - understood, - Yes. 1442 01:00:16,988 --> 01:00:18,417 then, what happens? 1443 01:00:18,464 --> 01:00:20,370 No, this is shaking it up, I guess. 1444 01:00:20,402 --> 01:00:22,714 That becomes part of the controversy. 1445 01:00:22,739 --> 01:00:25,525 Because, clearly, you now face with 1446 01:00:25,550 --> 01:00:28,556 How could you explain the survival of this? 1447 01:00:28,581 --> 01:00:30,527 - The pristine survival... - Hhh. 1448 01:00:30,552 --> 01:00:31,620 of this. 1449 01:00:31,667 --> 01:00:33,769 Not only for so long, 1450 01:00:33,831 --> 01:00:36,323 - but in very unpristine condition. - Uh-huh. 1451 01:00:36,355 --> 01:00:38,255 And so then, the controversy has been, 1452 01:00:38,294 --> 01:00:39,454 How do you explain it? 1453 01:00:39,486 --> 01:00:40,259 - Uh-huh. - And... 1454 01:00:40,298 --> 01:00:42,843 if you read some of the literature, 1455 01:00:42,882 --> 01:00:44,913 there is almost like desperation of, 1456 01:00:44,938 --> 01:00:46,437 because they recognize... 1457 01:00:46,484 --> 01:00:48,406 what the implications of this could be. 1458 01:00:48,460 --> 01:00:50,703 Now, some people would claim: Well, it means nothing, 1459 01:00:50,728 --> 01:00:52,110 because we know how old they are, 1460 01:00:52,135 --> 01:00:54,189 and therefore, it just means it survived somehow. 1461 01:00:54,220 --> 01:00:55,296 Big deal. 1462 01:00:55,321 --> 01:00:57,024 But, how do you know how old they are? 1463 01:00:57,049 --> 01:00:58,399 Would you use methods? 1464 01:00:58,424 --> 01:00:59,541 Suppose methods of dating. 1465 01:00:59,567 --> 01:01:01,331 Well, this is a method of dating. 1466 01:01:01,532 --> 01:01:03,978 The tissue itself can't be discounted 1467 01:01:04,009 --> 01:01:05,549 - as part of a method of dating. - Hhh. 1468 01:01:05,574 --> 01:01:08,396 So, why do you say that doesn't count, but this does count? 1469 01:01:08,421 --> 01:01:12,240 Well, it's all about the paradigm drives your conclusions. 1470 01:01:12,265 --> 01:01:13,990 The paradigm is, it has to be old, 1471 01:01:14,029 --> 01:01:17,906 therefore, methods that give us an old fossil are what we choose. 1472 01:01:17,931 --> 01:01:20,562 Something that doesn't give us an old fossil, like tissue, 1473 01:01:20,601 --> 01:01:23,406 - we have to reject or explain away. - Uh-huh. 1474 01:01:23,453 --> 01:01:27,047 At least to me, and I, of course, I'm not a microbiologist, but... 1475 01:01:27,140 --> 01:01:29,431 I think most people uh, would say: 1476 01:01:29,456 --> 01:01:32,470 Well, that, that just seems reasonable to think that, 1477 01:01:32,495 --> 01:01:34,878 maybe, these are not that old. 1478 01:01:34,931 --> 01:01:39,167 Clearly, this is in violation of the dating process. 1479 01:01:39,192 --> 01:01:40,245 It challenges... 1480 01:01:40,285 --> 01:01:42,160 - the entire dating process. - Uh-huh. 1481 01:01:42,199 --> 01:01:45,636 If the fossils of dinosaurs have been dated incorrectly, 1482 01:01:45,661 --> 01:01:48,370 which I would say, this is a clear evidence they have, 1483 01:01:48,410 --> 01:01:50,632 then it's very likely 1484 01:01:50,663 --> 01:01:53,835 the fossils of any organism had been dated incorrectly. 1485 01:01:53,860 --> 01:01:54,889 And therefore then, 1486 01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:57,358 the geological ages themselves are incorrect. 1487 01:01:57,389 --> 01:02:00,881 What you're saying is that if you pull out the notion of 1488 01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:03,711 a long period of time,... 1489 01:02:03,750 --> 01:02:06,422 uh, you're pulling out a major... 1490 01:02:06,462 --> 01:02:07,837 - foundation... - Hhh. 1491 01:02:07,868 --> 01:02:09,472 uh, for the conventional paradigm. 1492 01:02:09,519 --> 01:02:10,440 Absolutely. 1493 01:02:10,472 --> 01:02:15,815 In fact, time is the critical component for evolution. 1494 01:02:15,970 --> 01:02:18,349 If you're going to say that... 1495 01:02:18,427 --> 01:02:22,896 a simple cellular system became a multicellular system, 1496 01:02:22,927 --> 01:02:25,190 and then became fish,... 1497 01:02:25,299 --> 01:02:26,809 and the fish then... 1498 01:02:26,856 --> 01:02:28,924 jumped up on land and grew legs 1499 01:02:28,949 --> 01:02:30,504 - and started breathing air, - Hhh. 1500 01:02:30,543 --> 01:02:32,801 and then that creature 1501 01:02:32,848 --> 01:02:35,551 grew feathers and wings and started flying... 1502 01:02:35,635 --> 01:02:37,848 So if you give us time, 1503 01:02:37,888 --> 01:02:41,317 we'll claim to account for all of this... 1504 01:02:41,371 --> 01:02:43,940 massive change of organisms. 1505 01:02:43,965 --> 01:02:46,160 But, we got to have the time. 1506 01:02:46,723 --> 01:02:50,168 Everything seemed to come back to the question of time. 1507 01:02:50,285 --> 01:02:51,795 I remembered Andrew saying that 1508 01:02:51,820 --> 01:02:54,940 Charles Darwin accepted the millions of years first, 1509 01:02:54,996 --> 01:02:58,193 then fit his theory of evolution to that assumption. 1510 01:02:58,271 --> 01:03:02,578 But why is time such an important element to evolution? 1511 01:03:10,782 --> 01:03:12,665 Rob Carter is a marine biologist. 1512 01:03:12,696 --> 01:03:14,439 So we took this scuba diving... 1513 01:03:14,478 --> 01:03:17,454 to get a glimpse of a world most people don't see. 1514 01:03:17,548 --> 01:03:19,689 His specialty was coral. 1515 01:03:19,814 --> 01:03:22,170 And he knew a lot about the incredible creatures 1516 01:03:22,205 --> 01:03:25,673 that inhabit the reefs around St. Thomas. 1517 01:03:25,988 --> 01:03:28,214 Oh man, we got the sharks here? 1518 01:03:28,261 --> 01:03:29,605 The mean in which how they move, 1519 01:03:29,630 --> 01:03:31,800 and it's almost like effortlessly 1520 01:03:31,910 --> 01:03:33,465 glide along. 1521 01:03:33,472 --> 01:03:34,964 I wish I could swim like that. 1522 01:03:35,005 --> 01:03:37,128 Engineers wish we could make boats like that. 1523 01:03:37,153 --> 01:03:37,613 Yeah. 1524 01:03:37,622 --> 01:03:40,011 Submarines that could move as efficiently as a shark, 1525 01:03:40,066 --> 01:03:41,709 we can't quite do it. 1526 01:03:42,154 --> 01:03:44,731 So from your perspective as a marine biologist, 1527 01:03:44,756 --> 01:03:48,466 and I know that you've studied the whole area of ​​genetics alot,... 1528 01:03:48,498 --> 01:03:49,256 Yes. 1529 01:03:49,295 --> 01:03:51,649 when people talk about evolution, what is it? 1530 01:03:51,674 --> 01:03:53,445 How do you define evolution? 1531 01:03:53,496 --> 01:03:55,702 The word means "change over time". 1532 01:03:55,813 --> 01:03:58,508 But, I believe in change over time. 1533 01:03:58,625 --> 01:03:59,891 But I'm not an evolutionist. 1534 01:03:59,916 --> 01:04:01,625 So how does one figure this out? 1535 01:04:01,650 --> 01:04:04,438 Really, evolution is a belief... 1536 01:04:04,552 --> 01:04:06,797 that enough change over time,... 1537 01:04:06,872 --> 01:04:08,477 over enough time,... 1538 01:04:08,549 --> 01:04:11,297 can lead to the common ancestry of all species on Earth. 1539 01:04:11,322 --> 01:04:11,881 Alright. 1540 01:04:11,906 --> 01:04:13,608 So that's the part I reject. 1541 01:04:13,625 --> 01:04:14,695 Of course, species change. 1542 01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:15,977 I mean, look at these sharks here. 1543 01:04:16,002 --> 01:04:18,203 We have several different species of sharks. 1544 01:04:18,253 --> 01:04:19,566 When God created, 1545 01:04:19,605 --> 01:04:22,355 He put in to those organisms the ability 1546 01:04:22,386 --> 01:04:23,925 to change, to adapt, 1547 01:04:23,956 --> 01:04:26,339 - to respond dynamically... - Uh-huh. 1548 01:04:26,363 --> 01:04:27,660 to the environment. 1549 01:04:27,730 --> 01:04:29,496 But, they're still sharks. 1550 01:04:29,566 --> 01:04:31,207 And when we look at the fossil record,... 1551 01:04:31,270 --> 01:04:33,300 - they're still sharks. - Uh-huh. 1552 01:04:33,332 --> 01:04:35,660 Yeah, people have heard the phrase the "missing link",... 1553 01:04:35,691 --> 01:04:37,808 and they usually think of between man and monkeys. 1554 01:04:37,808 --> 01:04:39,111 No, this missing link is between 1555 01:04:39,136 --> 01:04:40,941 almost every major group of animal, 1556 01:04:40,972 --> 01:04:44,044 and almost every other major group of animal and plant, 1557 01:04:44,069 --> 01:04:47,185 and bacteria throughout the entire fossil record. 1558 01:04:47,226 --> 01:04:49,021 Which indicates very strongly... 1559 01:04:49,052 --> 01:04:52,255 that these are actually different creations. 1560 01:04:52,368 --> 01:04:54,552 So we don't get one kind becoming another kind? 1561 01:04:54,577 --> 01:04:55,372 No. 1562 01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:57,788 Evolution theory requires that... 1563 01:04:57,827 --> 01:05:01,757 small, random changes can explain everything we see. 1564 01:05:01,805 --> 01:05:03,633 - Uh-huh. - But, it can't. 1565 01:05:03,754 --> 01:05:04,796 And why can't it? 1566 01:05:04,821 --> 01:05:07,663 Because life is so complex... 1567 01:05:07,683 --> 01:05:09,692 that small changes can't explain it. 1568 01:05:09,734 --> 01:05:12,518 Just like you can't take a computer operating system,... 1569 01:05:12,543 --> 01:05:13,011 Uh-huh. 1570 01:05:13,036 --> 01:05:14,675 and look at it and say, oh yeah, this is built up 1571 01:05:14,706 --> 01:05:16,446 - one digit at a time... - Right. 1572 01:05:16,471 --> 01:05:18,190 over any length of time. 1573 01:05:18,221 --> 01:05:20,596 No, it took an intelligent person to sit down... 1574 01:05:20,667 --> 01:05:22,003 and put it together. 1575 01:05:22,049 --> 01:05:25,004 Well, I can guarantee you as one who is in that world... 1576 01:05:25,067 --> 01:05:28,749 that if anyone in the area of ​​computer science would have said, 1577 01:05:28,788 --> 01:05:32,030 we just randomly change some things in this operating system, 1578 01:05:32,055 --> 01:05:33,069 it'll get better. 1579 01:05:33,100 --> 01:05:34,544 I mean, no one would agree with that. 1580 01:05:34,569 --> 01:05:36,694 No, we're not gonna get the shark... 1581 01:05:36,749 --> 01:05:39,030 to evolve into a bird. 1582 01:05:39,139 --> 01:05:41,389 The, the, the number of changes 1583 01:05:41,421 --> 01:05:43,140 and the type of changes... 1584 01:05:43,202 --> 01:05:45,506 - are not something you could do... - Uh-huh. 1585 01:05:45,577 --> 01:05:47,756 one change at a time. 1586 01:05:50,619 --> 01:05:53,005 This is a sea urchin. 1587 01:05:53,173 --> 01:05:54,200 Looks spiny. 1588 01:05:54,227 --> 01:05:55,721 It's pointy. You have to be careful. 1589 01:05:55,758 --> 01:05:57,758 - Am I gonna get stuck if I touch it? - No, no, no. 1590 01:05:57,805 --> 01:05:58,807 It's pointy, but... 1591 01:05:58,846 --> 01:06:00,143 Oh my goodness, they, they're moving. 1592 01:06:00,178 --> 01:06:01,495 Yes, they're moving. 1593 01:06:01,719 --> 01:06:04,556 And then between the spines, there are little tube feet. 1594 01:06:04,638 --> 01:06:06,807 Especially, in the bottom. 1595 01:06:08,314 --> 01:06:09,838 Oh, look at that movement. 1596 01:06:09,900 --> 01:06:12,152 - So he walks with his spines... - Huh. 1597 01:06:12,192 --> 01:06:13,871 but his little tube feet in here, 1598 01:06:13,900 --> 01:06:15,847 and that's what he uses to grab on to things... 1599 01:06:15,894 --> 01:06:17,582 But look, looking carefully... 1600 01:06:17,605 --> 01:06:19,723 there is one, two, three, four, five, six, seven... 1601 01:06:19,754 --> 01:06:23,324 there are actually ten radial parts to this animal. 1602 01:06:23,449 --> 01:06:24,285 Huh! 1603 01:06:24,324 --> 01:06:26,293 Actually, the starfish is his cousin. 1604 01:06:26,339 --> 01:06:27,902 Are you seriously? You can't be serious. 1605 01:06:27,927 --> 01:06:28,933 Absolutely. 1606 01:06:28,958 --> 01:06:32,300 A starfish here is also an echinoderm. 1607 01:06:32,363 --> 01:06:34,254 But note, it has five full symmetry... 1608 01:06:34,317 --> 01:06:35,887 - instead of 10. - Uh-huh. Yeah. 1609 01:06:35,912 --> 01:06:37,292 This starfish does. 1610 01:06:37,390 --> 01:06:39,201 At the bottom, look... 1611 01:06:39,530 --> 01:06:42,436 we see the spines, we see the tube feet. 1612 01:06:42,498 --> 01:06:45,047 - His mouth is in the center there. - Huh. 1613 01:06:45,336 --> 01:06:47,203 So there are some similarities here? 1614 01:06:47,234 --> 01:06:48,109 - Similarities... - Eventhough, 1615 01:06:48,133 --> 01:06:49,561 externally, looks a lot different. 1616 01:06:49,586 --> 01:06:50,272 A lot different... 1617 01:06:50,297 --> 01:06:52,016 You want to see something that looks a lot different? 1618 01:06:52,047 --> 01:06:54,211 - Sure. - Which is cousin to the starfish 1619 01:06:54,242 --> 01:06:55,459 - and sea urchins. - Okay. 1620 01:06:55,484 --> 01:06:56,656 Alright. 1621 01:06:56,686 --> 01:06:57,961 It almost looks like a rock. 1622 01:06:57,986 --> 01:06:59,959 Yes, yes, I got to be careful. 1623 01:06:59,990 --> 01:07:01,303 He's squirting on me. 1624 01:07:01,443 --> 01:07:04,544 - This is a sea cucumber. - No. 1625 01:07:04,583 --> 01:07:06,411 - I'll be... - He has spines. 1626 01:07:06,863 --> 01:07:08,458 He has... 1627 01:07:08,513 --> 01:07:09,631 Huh. 1628 01:07:09,693 --> 01:07:11,324 - tube feet. - Oh my goodness. 1629 01:07:11,349 --> 01:07:14,679 You'd never know until you study really hard... 1630 01:07:14,742 --> 01:07:17,210 that this is also an echinoderm. 1631 01:07:17,304 --> 01:07:19,117 He's not very happy to be out of water 1632 01:07:19,156 --> 01:07:20,210 - so let me put him back in. - Yeah. 1633 01:07:20,249 --> 01:07:21,453 So these are all related 1634 01:07:21,488 --> 01:07:23,554 eventhough, they look very, very different. 1635 01:07:23,593 --> 01:07:25,406 Related in their creation. 1636 01:07:25,431 --> 01:07:27,413 - Uh-huh. - Not in an evolutionary sense, 1637 01:07:27,460 --> 01:07:29,288 but, our Creator... 1638 01:07:29,367 --> 01:07:31,398 took this phylum of life,... 1639 01:07:31,507 --> 01:07:32,898 the echinoderms, 1640 01:07:33,023 --> 01:07:35,695 and created this and this and this 1641 01:07:35,734 --> 01:07:36,928 on a similar pattern. 1642 01:07:36,960 --> 01:07:39,710 And that's what we see across the entire realm of life, 1643 01:07:39,740 --> 01:07:41,701 - Uh-huh. - similarities and differences. 1644 01:07:41,828 --> 01:07:44,275 So, what makes them different? 1645 01:07:44,314 --> 01:07:46,902 Well, genetically, they share... 1646 01:07:46,948 --> 01:07:49,143 most of their genes in common. 1647 01:07:49,346 --> 01:07:51,603 But, they develop mental genes, 1648 01:07:51,635 --> 01:07:53,119 they're called Hox genes, 1649 01:07:53,150 --> 01:07:54,996 that set up these patterns 1650 01:07:55,021 --> 01:07:56,330 in the animals as they develop. 1651 01:07:56,355 --> 01:07:58,213 They develop from a single cell. 1652 01:07:58,248 --> 01:08:00,838 Then in one of them, they set up a five-fold symmetry. 1653 01:08:00,885 --> 01:08:02,721 in another, they set up a ten-fold symmetry. 1654 01:08:02,746 --> 01:08:05,717 Another one, they make this long skinny animal. 1655 01:08:05,779 --> 01:08:07,873 They control the development... 1656 01:08:07,912 --> 01:08:10,589 of the embryo in these amazing ways. 1657 01:08:10,678 --> 01:08:14,086 So what you're saying, when we look at this from uh, um,... 1658 01:08:14,139 --> 01:08:17,201 a molecular or genetic perspective,... 1659 01:08:17,303 --> 01:08:22,238 uh, what we're finding is really a fascinating design... 1660 01:08:22,279 --> 01:08:24,076 - in all of this. - Absolutely. 1661 01:08:24,201 --> 01:08:27,836 But, what we heard in the conventional paradigm, 1662 01:08:27,867 --> 01:08:30,086 the conventional story tells us... 1663 01:08:30,133 --> 01:08:32,772 that is those random changes 1664 01:08:32,797 --> 01:08:34,764 that has brought about all of this. 1665 01:08:34,789 --> 01:08:35,447 Sure. 1666 01:08:35,482 --> 01:08:36,867 Back in the eighteen hundreds, 1667 01:08:36,898 --> 01:08:38,424 - when life was simple, - Uh-huh. 1668 01:08:38,449 --> 01:08:40,295 when they didn't know what was happening inside the cell, 1669 01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:42,383 they didn't know how complex genetics was, 1670 01:08:42,430 --> 01:08:44,297 you could imagine all sorts of things. 1671 01:08:44,336 --> 01:08:46,166 But now that we know what actually happens 1672 01:08:46,174 --> 01:08:47,283 - behind the scence, - Hhh. 1673 01:08:47,315 --> 01:08:49,008 the story gets a lot more complicated. 1674 01:08:49,033 --> 01:08:51,316 You see, I like to say that the genome... 1675 01:08:51,379 --> 01:08:53,160 - is four-dimensional. - Hhh. 1676 01:08:53,199 --> 01:08:55,808 We, we have a one dimensional string called DNA. 1677 01:08:55,855 --> 01:08:58,121 And if you want to draw that out, 1678 01:08:58,176 --> 01:08:59,879 you have to write all the letters of DNA, 1679 01:08:59,910 --> 01:09:01,629 I don't, all three billion of them, 1680 01:09:01,691 --> 01:09:03,957 and then you have to draw lines or arrows... 1681 01:09:03,988 --> 01:09:06,588 from one part to anotherpart because this part turns this part off, 1682 01:09:06,613 --> 01:09:09,215 this part interferes with this, this part enhances this. 1683 01:09:09,254 --> 01:09:11,358 It is a huge two dimensional interaction network. 1684 01:09:11,404 --> 01:09:13,576 that's a way you have a two-dimensional genome. 1685 01:09:13,615 --> 01:09:14,295 Hey, let me, let me 1686 01:09:14,326 --> 01:09:15,067 - stop you for a second, - Alright. 1687 01:09:15,092 --> 01:09:16,787 because this is really amazing... 1688 01:09:16,834 --> 01:09:18,365 to think about this because... 1689 01:09:18,412 --> 01:09:21,389 um, I think, in terms of a computer program 1690 01:09:21,414 --> 01:09:22,676 that is fairly static. 1691 01:09:22,701 --> 01:09:24,513 - I mean, the instructions are there. - Yeah. 1692 01:09:24,545 --> 01:09:26,555 But, you're talking about a program 1693 01:09:26,586 --> 01:09:28,569 - that is reprogramming itself. - Oh. 1694 01:09:28,594 --> 01:09:30,319 That's modifying its own instructions. 1695 01:09:30,344 --> 01:09:31,672 Wait until you get to fourth dimension. 1696 01:09:31,712 --> 01:09:32,766 Oh, okay. 1697 01:09:32,816 --> 01:09:34,367 Because there is a third dimension first. 1698 01:09:34,399 --> 01:09:37,573 The information in that first dimension, that linear string,... 1699 01:09:37,602 --> 01:09:39,727 has to be organized in such a way... 1700 01:09:39,756 --> 01:09:42,482 that when it folds into the third dimension, 1701 01:09:42,529 --> 01:09:43,537 it still works. 1702 01:09:43,572 --> 01:09:44,669 Oh, that's amazing. 1703 01:09:44,707 --> 01:09:47,005 Genes that are used together are next to each other. 1704 01:09:47,045 --> 01:09:48,811 - In 3D space. - I'll be... 1705 01:09:48,857 --> 01:09:52,137 Are you saying that once this thing gets folded up, 1706 01:09:52,162 --> 01:09:53,560 It's almost like we have... 1707 01:09:53,615 --> 01:09:55,397 - a new set of instructions? - Yes. 1708 01:09:55,427 --> 01:09:56,896 And new level of information. 1709 01:09:56,943 --> 01:09:58,246 - Unbelievable. - That... 1710 01:09:58,271 --> 01:10:00,373 whoever programmed that first level... 1711 01:10:00,404 --> 01:10:02,184 needed to understand what was gonna happen... 1712 01:10:02,209 --> 01:10:03,680 have it work in the third level. 1713 01:10:03,705 --> 01:10:05,594 But, you said there is another dimension even. 1714 01:10:05,625 --> 01:10:07,977 Oh yeah. The fourth dimension is time. 1715 01:10:08,133 --> 01:10:09,352 And how does that work? 1716 01:10:09,383 --> 01:10:11,219 The genome changes shape... 1717 01:10:11,313 --> 01:10:12,594 over time. 1718 01:10:12,633 --> 01:10:15,078 Maybe, you eat something that's bad for you... 1719 01:10:15,148 --> 01:10:18,322 and your liver says, I can get rid of that toxin. 1720 01:10:18,347 --> 01:10:22,244 Now, the chromosomes in the liver will change shape, 1721 01:10:22,547 --> 01:10:25,232 expose that new protein gene, 1722 01:10:25,295 --> 01:10:27,318 make copies of it,... 1723 01:10:27,529 --> 01:10:30,997 build the brand new protein that can kill off that toxin,... 1724 01:10:31,068 --> 01:10:32,419 and when it's not needed anymore, 1725 01:10:32,451 --> 01:10:34,591 - they change shape again and fold back. - Oh my goodness. 1726 01:10:34,646 --> 01:10:36,349 Dynamic programming. 1727 01:10:36,428 --> 01:10:38,537 All three levels... 1728 01:10:38,591 --> 01:10:41,591 change in the fourth level time. 1729 01:10:41,796 --> 01:10:45,237 Rob, that's so far beyond anything that we know. 1730 01:10:45,262 --> 01:10:47,827 Even in our most complex software systems 1731 01:10:47,842 --> 01:10:51,280 that it, it's almost beyond imagination to think... 1732 01:10:51,348 --> 01:10:53,600 that someone would look at that 1733 01:10:53,625 --> 01:10:55,319 and say, it all happened by chance. 1734 01:10:55,344 --> 01:10:57,242 Yes, and only brings glory to God. 1735 01:10:57,274 --> 01:10:58,047 It does. 1736 01:10:58,078 --> 01:10:59,705 You can't build something like that up 1737 01:10:59,745 --> 01:11:00,913 - one thing at a time. - Yeah. 1738 01:11:00,938 --> 01:11:02,909 You need it function. 1739 01:11:03,018 --> 01:11:06,010 In, in all its interlocking four dimensional complexity, 1740 01:11:06,049 --> 01:11:07,557 it's not something you can do... 1741 01:11:07,588 --> 01:11:08,948 one letter at a time... 1742 01:11:08,987 --> 01:11:10,360 - with natural selection. - Uh-huh. 1743 01:11:10,385 --> 01:11:11,606 It all has to be there. 1744 01:11:11,645 --> 01:11:13,285 Yeah, in the same way when we talk about 1745 01:11:13,317 --> 01:11:15,379 the environment down here at the coral reef. 1746 01:11:15,442 --> 01:11:18,591 If you don't have all these interlocking pieces in that puzzle, 1747 01:11:18,653 --> 01:11:20,513 you don't have that ecology. 1748 01:11:20,538 --> 01:11:22,075 The system would come crashing down 1749 01:11:22,107 --> 01:11:24,550 if you just remove a couple of very important 1750 01:11:24,575 --> 01:11:25,607 - factors that are there. - Uh-huh. 1751 01:11:25,638 --> 01:11:28,279 They have to be together or it doesn't happen. 1752 01:11:28,363 --> 01:11:31,638 So not only do we have this uh, interdependency, 1753 01:11:31,678 --> 01:11:34,974 this mutualism, so to speak, down at the genetic level, 1754 01:11:35,060 --> 01:11:37,617 now we even make it more complex by saying, 1755 01:11:37,642 --> 01:11:39,687 there is that same mutualism... 1756 01:11:39,718 --> 01:11:41,439 - at the higher level as well. - Yes. 1757 01:11:41,464 --> 01:11:44,431 In fact, the entire world has mutualism. 1758 01:11:44,546 --> 01:11:46,595 It's impossible to think... 1759 01:11:46,642 --> 01:11:48,924 that all of this could have happened... 1760 01:11:49,017 --> 01:11:53,083 just by a series of slow processes over billions of years. 1761 01:11:53,108 --> 01:11:55,532 That's exactly what I'm saying. 1762 01:11:57,963 --> 01:11:59,924 It's clear that the world we live in... 1763 01:11:59,971 --> 01:12:02,190 is incredibly interdependent. 1764 01:12:02,300 --> 01:12:04,675 From the smallest biological system... 1765 01:12:04,706 --> 01:12:06,963 to the largest ecosystem. 1766 01:12:07,069 --> 01:12:10,728 There are complex mutual relationships everywhere. 1767 01:12:10,884 --> 01:12:14,577 I realized the creation in six days makes the most sense, 1768 01:12:14,602 --> 01:12:16,329 from an engineering perspective. 1769 01:12:16,411 --> 01:12:18,515 You need everything working together 1770 01:12:18,561 --> 01:12:20,031 at the same time 1771 01:12:20,093 --> 01:12:22,466 for everything to function properly. 1772 01:12:22,561 --> 01:12:26,507 And that's exactly how Genesis says, God created it. 1773 01:12:26,780 --> 01:12:29,124 Rob also said, God created animals 1774 01:12:29,149 --> 01:12:30,874 with the ability to change 1775 01:12:30,899 --> 01:12:33,171 and adapt to their environments. 1776 01:12:33,233 --> 01:12:36,182 Is it possible, this ability to change... 1777 01:12:36,202 --> 01:12:38,835 has been mistaken for evolution? 1778 01:12:45,811 --> 01:12:47,905 As Todd Wood and I walk through the zoo, 1779 01:12:47,944 --> 01:12:50,741 we saw incredible beauty and amazing design 1780 01:12:50,788 --> 01:12:52,053 wherever we looked. 1781 01:12:52,147 --> 01:12:54,899 I noticed the great diversity between some animals, 1782 01:12:54,930 --> 01:12:58,571 as well as a remarkable similarity of others. 1783 01:12:59,704 --> 01:13:01,305 As, as a biologist, 1784 01:13:01,347 --> 01:13:04,415 what do you see when you see all of these creatures? 1785 01:13:04,516 --> 01:13:06,040 Yeah, when I look at this,... 1786 01:13:06,071 --> 01:13:07,602 look at these lions,... 1787 01:13:07,634 --> 01:13:09,675 specifically, I'm seeing cats. 1788 01:13:09,706 --> 01:13:13,204 And so, and all the other cats they have here at the zoo, 1789 01:13:13,235 --> 01:13:15,801 they all have this underlining... 1790 01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:17,552 catness to them... 1791 01:13:17,590 --> 01:13:19,155 - Hhh. - that's really apparent. 1792 01:13:19,201 --> 01:13:23,746 It's really apparent when they start playing, right? 1793 01:13:23,795 --> 01:13:26,787 You see them play with some sort of ball or something and they look... 1794 01:13:26,819 --> 01:13:28,965 - Look just like a cat. - They look like a cat. 1795 01:13:28,991 --> 01:13:32,061 You know, scientists would put that to a family called Felidae. 1796 01:13:32,123 --> 01:13:34,319 And I would understand the felines to be... 1797 01:13:34,344 --> 01:13:36,362 representatives of a single created kind. 1798 01:13:36,387 --> 01:13:37,516 So the continuity, 1799 01:13:37,541 --> 01:13:40,032 the similarity there is so significant... 1800 01:13:40,063 --> 01:13:41,235 that I'd say, yeah, 1801 01:13:41,267 --> 01:13:43,688 these guys are all descended from a single... 1802 01:13:43,750 --> 01:13:44,938 pair of critters... 1803 01:13:44,993 --> 01:13:46,524 - Hhh. - that was on the ark... 1804 01:13:46,563 --> 01:13:50,452 and that eventually generated all the different sorts of cats 1805 01:13:50,477 --> 01:13:51,625 that we have today. 1806 01:13:51,665 --> 01:13:55,839 So rather than just uh, a, a random accident,... 1807 01:13:55,909 --> 01:13:59,587 it appears as if all of these different species are coming 1808 01:13:59,603 --> 01:14:00,634 from a really 1809 01:14:00,659 --> 01:14:03,084 - elaborate design. - Oh, absolutely. 1810 01:14:03,111 --> 01:14:05,152 And it's not just the design, like God, you know, 1811 01:14:05,177 --> 01:14:06,534 designed and created the lion, 1812 01:14:06,565 --> 01:14:09,122 it's God created something that could make a lion. 1813 01:14:09,147 --> 01:14:10,763 - Uh-huh. - So it's more like, you know, 1814 01:14:10,796 --> 01:14:12,395 a multi-purpose tool or a Swiss Army knife, 1815 01:14:12,420 --> 01:14:15,388 where you got all these pieces that you just pop out whenever you need them, 1816 01:14:15,427 --> 01:14:17,013 but it's all just one thing. 1817 01:14:17,052 --> 01:14:20,231 So give me some other examples of created kinds. 1818 01:14:20,263 --> 01:14:23,359 Yes, so, you got the grizzly and the polar bear. 1819 01:14:23,406 --> 01:14:25,375 Those are all members of the bear kind. 1820 01:14:25,410 --> 01:14:27,935 You got ducks, swans and geese. 1821 01:14:28,001 --> 01:14:30,271 The thing about the dog kind is really interesting. 1822 01:14:30,303 --> 01:14:33,326 So, you take just this wolf-like creature... 1823 01:14:33,389 --> 01:14:36,084 and we can breed in only a few hundred years... 1824 01:14:36,115 --> 01:14:37,797 many different breeds. 1825 01:14:37,953 --> 01:14:39,908 Well, Todd, that's kind of fascinating now, 1826 01:14:39,939 --> 01:14:42,119 to think about what God was doing 1827 01:14:42,159 --> 01:14:43,604 when He was bringing 1828 01:14:43,633 --> 01:14:45,494 uh, two of every kind. 1829 01:14:45,525 --> 01:14:47,032 What do you think was going on there? 1830 01:14:47,064 --> 01:14:48,400 Oh yeah. I mean, He's... 1831 01:14:48,533 --> 01:14:52,457 He doesn't have to bring every little variety onto the ark. 1832 01:14:52,496 --> 01:14:54,473 So when you actually do the calculations, 1833 01:14:54,504 --> 01:14:55,926 and, okay, so we don't know exactly 1834 01:14:55,951 --> 01:14:57,795 how many created kinds that were on the ark. 1835 01:14:57,820 --> 01:14:59,663 Maybe, couple thousands,... 1836 01:14:59,688 --> 01:15:00,709 and they're small. 1837 01:15:00,734 --> 01:15:02,312 Most animals are quite small. 1838 01:15:02,343 --> 01:15:04,132 So, you have room to spare. 1839 01:15:04,164 --> 01:15:05,656 - Literally, room to spare. - Hhh. 1840 01:15:05,693 --> 01:15:08,265 And all of that diversity that we have today 1841 01:15:08,312 --> 01:15:11,101 is built in to those two of a kind. 1842 01:15:14,311 --> 01:15:16,631 Well Todd, we're looking at the zebras and... 1843 01:15:16,671 --> 01:15:17,864 they're all unique, 1844 01:15:17,889 --> 01:15:19,600 and yet all of these creatures, 1845 01:15:19,631 --> 01:15:23,045 there is so much complexity and diversity. 1846 01:15:23,084 --> 01:15:25,005 How does the standard story, 1847 01:15:25,030 --> 01:15:28,092 the conventional paradigm, explain all of that? 1848 01:15:28,178 --> 01:15:30,225 Well, they would use evolution, right? 1849 01:15:30,257 --> 01:15:31,188 So... 1850 01:15:31,227 --> 01:15:32,578 Millions of years, 1851 01:15:32,617 --> 01:15:34,360 random variations, 1852 01:15:34,406 --> 01:15:37,196 all things that are alive now, 1853 01:15:37,329 --> 01:15:39,774 that cactus, that zebra,... 1854 01:15:39,837 --> 01:15:42,257 the grass here, is all related. 1855 01:15:42,282 --> 01:15:44,696 We all go back to a common ancestor that lived 1856 01:15:44,727 --> 01:15:46,243 billions of years ago. 1857 01:15:46,313 --> 01:15:51,095 And through the process of mutation and genetic variation... 1858 01:15:51,157 --> 01:15:52,852 uh, and natural selection, 1859 01:15:52,877 --> 01:15:55,141 and that's where we get the stuffs that we have today. 1860 01:15:55,368 --> 01:15:57,720 So, natural selection... 1861 01:15:57,775 --> 01:15:59,406 uh, what is it? 1862 01:15:59,431 --> 01:16:01,425 Does it have the kind of creative 1863 01:16:01,459 --> 01:16:03,910 potential that we need for all of this? 1864 01:16:04,011 --> 01:16:07,205 Natural selection uh, is basically all about 1865 01:16:07,230 --> 01:16:09,589 killing off things that aren't fit for the environment. 1866 01:16:09,621 --> 01:16:13,066 So, if you're a finch in the Galapagos,... 1867 01:16:13,105 --> 01:16:15,175 and you have a really tiny beak,... 1868 01:16:15,222 --> 01:16:17,238 and the only food available to you is really 1869 01:16:17,269 --> 01:16:18,947 - big hard seeds,... - Uh-huh. 1870 01:16:18,972 --> 01:16:20,142 you're gonna die. 1871 01:16:20,167 --> 01:16:21,863 And that's exactly what we observe. 1872 01:16:21,902 --> 01:16:23,964 And so, we can watch over the generations 1873 01:16:24,003 --> 01:16:26,410 that the beak sizes of finches change 1874 01:16:26,457 --> 01:16:27,691 in the Galapagos. 1875 01:16:27,746 --> 01:16:29,316 But, they're still finches. 1876 01:16:29,371 --> 01:16:30,863 They're still birds. 1877 01:16:30,933 --> 01:16:33,667 The notion that natural selection can generate 1878 01:16:33,699 --> 01:16:34,916 all of the diversity we see, 1879 01:16:34,941 --> 01:16:36,527 that's not been demonstrated. 1880 01:16:36,557 --> 01:16:37,666 - Uh-huh. - What we find, 1881 01:16:37,691 --> 01:16:39,471 most often, with natural selection 1882 01:16:39,496 --> 01:16:42,162 is that natural selection does a lot of fine tunings. 1883 01:16:42,209 --> 01:16:44,490 So right over here, we got these oryxes, right? 1884 01:16:44,529 --> 01:16:45,951 Beautiful creatures,... 1885 01:16:45,991 --> 01:16:48,506 and very, very pale colors. 1886 01:16:48,553 --> 01:16:53,657 The wild ranges of the oryx is right on the southern end of Sahara Desert. 1887 01:16:53,750 --> 01:16:55,235 - And so you can see... - Uh-huh. 1888 01:16:55,274 --> 01:16:57,032 yeah, their coloration makes sense. 1889 01:16:57,063 --> 01:16:58,703 If you get a really dark color one 1890 01:16:58,735 --> 01:17:00,125 that's gonna be very easy for 1891 01:17:00,157 --> 01:17:01,524 - predators to find, - Uh-huh. 1892 01:17:01,555 --> 01:17:04,870 and so they end up being these really beautiful light colors. 1893 01:17:04,925 --> 01:17:08,253 Uh, and that's an example of where selection would take... 1894 01:17:08,300 --> 01:17:11,458 a variation and turn it into an adaptation. 1895 01:17:11,521 --> 01:17:14,333 And that brings us back to the notion that... 1896 01:17:14,365 --> 01:17:17,154 a really exquisite design in the beginning. 1897 01:17:17,179 --> 01:17:18,191 - Oh, I think so. - It... 1898 01:17:18,216 --> 01:17:19,310 - Oh, absolutely. - Uh-huh. 1899 01:17:19,365 --> 01:17:21,826 It has provided these creatures with the ability 1900 01:17:21,865 --> 01:17:24,591 to survive and to, to change 1901 01:17:24,630 --> 01:17:26,257 - for their benefit. - Absolutely. 1902 01:17:26,296 --> 01:17:29,842 So the ability to be able to change your coloration like that, 1903 01:17:29,867 --> 01:17:31,492 to be able to fit in an environment, 1904 01:17:31,554 --> 01:17:34,931 that's got to be built into the system before it starts. 1905 01:17:34,970 --> 01:17:35,986 Now, don't get me wrong. 1906 01:17:36,011 --> 01:17:39,267 I mean, that those selections and random variations can do amazing things. 1907 01:17:39,306 --> 01:17:41,558 I mean, it, it's pretty astonishing... 1908 01:17:41,668 --> 01:17:44,230 the kind of changes that we can see,... 1909 01:17:44,281 --> 01:17:47,222 but we don't see one kind changing into another. 1910 01:17:47,285 --> 01:17:49,058 All we see are variations... 1911 01:17:49,098 --> 01:17:51,035 - that happened within a created kind. - Uh-huh. 1912 01:17:51,068 --> 01:17:53,666 There is a felid tree which has all the cats on it. 1913 01:17:53,691 --> 01:17:56,097 There is a canid tree which has all the dogs on it. 1914 01:17:56,128 --> 01:17:58,761 There is an ursid tree which has all the bears on it. 1915 01:17:58,786 --> 01:18:00,763 There is an equid tree with all the horses on it. 1916 01:18:00,810 --> 01:18:05,187 Each individual created kind then has its own individual tree. 1917 01:18:05,218 --> 01:18:08,234 So that you end up with something like an orchard or forest. 1918 01:18:08,289 --> 01:18:09,546 As a scientist, 1919 01:18:09,571 --> 01:18:12,648 it seems, what you're saying is the Genesis paradigm... 1920 01:18:12,687 --> 01:18:15,484 answers all of this data better. 1921 01:18:15,570 --> 01:18:16,945 Ultimately, I think it does, 1922 01:18:16,970 --> 01:18:19,976 because it embraces both similarity and difference. 1923 01:18:20,031 --> 01:18:21,539 Now, as we already said, 1924 01:18:21,564 --> 01:18:24,962 there are just, there are a lot of questions that are still out there. 1925 01:18:25,017 --> 01:18:26,025 But,... 1926 01:18:26,080 --> 01:18:28,471 uh, I'm pretty confident, given what... 1927 01:18:28,525 --> 01:18:29,953 our paradigm can explain, 1928 01:18:29,978 --> 01:18:33,339 I am very confident that those answers are going to be found. 1929 01:18:34,214 --> 01:18:35,775 After we left the zebras, 1930 01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:37,568 we made our way to the gorillas. 1931 01:18:37,652 --> 01:18:41,763 Todd wanted to talk about the question of human evolution. 1932 01:18:42,256 --> 01:18:43,860 Todd, we see it all the time, 1933 01:18:43,891 --> 01:18:46,212 a new discovery, new skulls,... 1934 01:18:46,256 --> 01:18:48,008 new skeletons that... 1935 01:18:48,071 --> 01:18:51,594 supposedly solidify this whole link. 1936 01:18:51,667 --> 01:18:53,393 - Yeah. - What do you see there? 1937 01:18:53,432 --> 01:18:56,260 Absolutely. Well, I got some right here in my bag. 1938 01:18:57,284 --> 01:18:58,354 Oh, a skull. 1939 01:18:58,379 --> 01:19:00,143 So, this guy... 1940 01:19:00,550 --> 01:19:03,346 is a Neandertal. 1941 01:19:03,550 --> 01:19:05,357 Very, very low forehead. 1942 01:19:05,404 --> 01:19:07,631 - To we have very tall foreheads. - Uh-huh. 1943 01:19:07,693 --> 01:19:09,521 Uh, the face, 1944 01:19:09,576 --> 01:19:11,724 the mid-face has been pulled out. 1945 01:19:11,779 --> 01:19:14,130 - Uh-huh. - Uh, but at the same time,... 1946 01:19:14,217 --> 01:19:15,950 well, it looks very human. 1947 01:19:16,005 --> 01:19:17,044 - So that's the Neandertal. - Okay. 1948 01:19:17,069 --> 01:19:18,044 - You want to hold it on for me? - Yeah, yeah. 1949 01:19:18,075 --> 01:19:18,904 Okay? 1950 01:19:18,966 --> 01:19:20,950 We have others that are very different. 1951 01:19:20,998 --> 01:19:22,247 Oh, yeah. 1952 01:19:22,287 --> 01:19:24,428 Now, this one is... 1953 01:19:24,513 --> 01:19:26,419 Australopithecus Africanus. 1954 01:19:26,458 --> 01:19:27,733 So, you can see,... 1955 01:19:27,781 --> 01:19:29,685 really no forehead at all. 1956 01:19:29,710 --> 01:19:31,279 - It's just slopes right back. - Uh-huh. 1957 01:19:31,304 --> 01:19:33,718 Very, very small brain case,... 1958 01:19:33,781 --> 01:19:36,336 uh, muscle sticks way out,... 1959 01:19:36,413 --> 01:19:39,532 so the flace faces slope forward. 1960 01:19:39,784 --> 01:19:41,446 What do you do with this stuff? 1961 01:19:41,485 --> 01:19:43,239 I mean, there is many more that we can show, 1962 01:19:43,270 --> 01:19:44,880 many more pictures, many more skulls, 1963 01:19:44,911 --> 01:19:46,329 and you can see looking at the... 1964 01:19:46,354 --> 01:19:48,704 - Bringing them together, they're really... - Yeah. Uh-huh. 1965 01:19:49,090 --> 01:19:51,067 - There is a lot of difference there. - Yeah. 1966 01:19:51,137 --> 01:19:52,541 Well, here's the thing. 1967 01:19:52,576 --> 01:19:55,252 So all that created kind stuffs that we already talked about, 1968 01:19:55,287 --> 01:19:56,842 I can show... 1969 01:19:56,889 --> 01:20:00,100 again and again and again with multiple studies... 1970 01:20:00,180 --> 01:20:03,758 that I can find the discontinuity between humans... 1971 01:20:03,821 --> 01:20:05,587 and nonhumans. 1972 01:20:05,633 --> 01:20:07,899 So this thing lands on the human side. 1973 01:20:07,926 --> 01:20:11,526 This Neandertal here is one of us. 1974 01:20:11,643 --> 01:20:13,666 - This thing is not. - Hhh. 1975 01:20:13,697 --> 01:20:14,838 It is different. 1976 01:20:14,877 --> 01:20:17,098 But, this would be just another one of those... 1977 01:20:17,137 --> 01:20:20,527 varieties of living things that God made in the beginning 1978 01:20:20,559 --> 01:20:22,817 and it survive the flood and board the ark. 1979 01:20:22,856 --> 01:20:26,467 So when we look at uh, Neanderthal man,... 1980 01:20:26,624 --> 01:20:29,952 uh, we're looking at a, a human,... 1981 01:20:30,085 --> 01:20:33,592 uh, but it's a human that just like we find in dogs, 1982 01:20:33,631 --> 01:20:36,295 we have a lot of varieties of, of dogs... 1983 01:20:36,335 --> 01:20:38,126 We got a lot of varieties of people. 1984 01:20:38,181 --> 01:20:39,915 So even looking back here at the gorilla, 1985 01:20:39,939 --> 01:20:40,946 we can see... 1986 01:20:40,985 --> 01:20:43,252 the obvious differences between us and him. 1987 01:20:43,287 --> 01:20:45,142 Not the least of which is that he's in there... 1988 01:20:45,167 --> 01:20:47,114 and we, we can go home when we're done. 1989 01:20:47,177 --> 01:20:50,833 And so those differences are really huge, aren't they? 1990 01:20:50,880 --> 01:20:52,607 Uh, yeah, absolutely. 1991 01:20:52,653 --> 01:20:53,966 The image of God... 1992 01:20:54,029 --> 01:20:56,317 entails this idea of... 1993 01:20:56,380 --> 01:20:58,724 being God's representatives here on this Earth. 1994 01:20:58,763 --> 01:21:01,825 Part of that, there is having dominion and having authority. 1995 01:21:01,864 --> 01:21:03,817 A spiritual quality that we have, you know, 1996 01:21:03,888 --> 01:21:05,452 - that we don't share... - Uh-huh. 1997 01:21:05,484 --> 01:21:07,444 - with animals like that. - Yeah. 1998 01:21:08,527 --> 01:21:11,114 It's obvious we're different from the rest of creation. 1999 01:21:11,163 --> 01:21:13,372 Because we were made in God's image. 2000 01:21:13,431 --> 01:21:15,251 We're the only ones to create zoos. 2001 01:21:15,290 --> 01:21:17,751 So, we can see the beauty of God's animals. 2002 01:21:17,790 --> 01:21:20,024 And we're unique in tracking time 2003 01:21:20,049 --> 01:21:22,356 and want to know our own history. 2004 01:21:22,459 --> 01:21:25,903 But, where does our concept of time come from? 2005 01:21:38,058 --> 01:21:39,925 It was a beautiful night. 2006 01:21:40,003 --> 01:21:41,893 Danny took me far outside the city. 2007 01:21:41,924 --> 01:21:43,268 And kept me up very late 2008 01:21:43,300 --> 01:21:46,729 in order to show something I will never forget. 2009 01:21:48,636 --> 01:21:49,925 Oh my goodness! 2010 01:21:49,956 --> 01:21:52,699 Now you're gonna make me buy a telescope. 2011 01:21:54,455 --> 01:21:57,011 You know, we have some purposes that were given from the stars. 2012 01:21:57,058 --> 01:22:00,360 In, in Genesis 1:14 to 19, that's day 4... 2013 01:22:00,391 --> 01:22:03,159 uh, creation calendar, mentions the stars and other heavenly bodies 2014 01:22:03,190 --> 01:22:04,214 - that mark time, - Hhh. 2015 01:22:04,249 --> 01:22:06,071 to rule over the night, to be for sign, 2016 01:22:06,103 --> 01:22:08,033 seasons, festivals and so forth. 2017 01:22:08,079 --> 01:22:10,079 Uh, people have been using the stars 2018 01:22:10,119 --> 01:22:12,728 - for, for marking, passing of time. - Uh-huh. 2019 01:22:12,753 --> 01:22:14,556 The patterns repeat every night. 2020 01:22:14,581 --> 01:22:15,728 They repeated every year. 2021 01:22:15,753 --> 01:22:17,071 They, they come back. 2022 01:22:17,095 --> 01:22:18,204 And the season, 2023 01:22:18,229 --> 01:22:20,610 - it's a lot of regularity going on here. - Uh-huh. 2024 01:22:20,673 --> 01:22:23,329 Uh, what about the design of the sun and the moon? 2025 01:22:23,354 --> 01:22:24,845 Well, there're a couple of things I can talk about. 2026 01:22:24,899 --> 01:22:28,229 On rare occasions, the, the moon passes between us and our sun. 2027 01:22:28,254 --> 01:22:29,760 - Uh-huh. - Doesn't happen very often. 2028 01:22:29,792 --> 01:22:31,174 And when that happens, 2029 01:22:31,199 --> 01:22:33,629 the, the moon just barely covers the sun up. 2030 01:22:33,654 --> 01:22:36,518 If the moon were a little smaller or little farther away, 2031 01:22:36,557 --> 01:22:38,075 it wouldn't do it at all. 2032 01:22:38,113 --> 01:22:40,629 If it were larger or closer to us, 2033 01:22:40,668 --> 01:22:42,504 it would be grossly over total. 2034 01:22:42,536 --> 01:22:43,551 - Uh-huh. - And uh, 2035 01:22:43,591 --> 01:22:46,479 So these eclipses are, are spectacular and rare, 2036 01:22:46,504 --> 01:22:49,192 and this is the only planet on which it matters. 2037 01:22:49,226 --> 01:22:51,390 And it's the only planet on which it happens. 2038 01:22:51,429 --> 01:22:54,861 And you got to think either just that's the way the world is,... 2039 01:22:54,892 --> 01:22:56,642 for no apparent reason,... 2040 01:22:56,677 --> 01:22:59,689 or the world is that way for a purpose and design. 2041 01:22:59,721 --> 01:23:01,853 And to me, that speaks of creation. 2042 01:23:02,270 --> 01:23:03,512 Okay, high over head here, 2043 01:23:03,537 --> 01:23:05,176 we have the great square of Pegasus. 2044 01:23:05,201 --> 01:23:06,817 it is this big regtangle. 2045 01:23:06,842 --> 01:23:10,250 Now coming off of Pegasus is a little fuzzy spot right there. 2046 01:23:10,280 --> 01:23:11,304 - You see it? - Yeah. 2047 01:23:11,329 --> 01:23:12,954 That's the Andromeda Galaxy. 2048 01:23:13,039 --> 01:23:16,719 That is the most distant object that you can see with the naked eye. 2049 01:23:16,750 --> 01:23:18,452 It's a little over, we think, a little over 2050 01:23:18,477 --> 01:23:19,735 two million light years away, 2051 01:23:19,766 --> 01:23:21,735 and it contains a couple hundred billion stars. 2052 01:23:21,774 --> 01:23:22,501 Wow. 2053 01:23:22,526 --> 01:23:24,366 Okay, Danny, that brings me to... 2054 01:23:24,397 --> 01:23:27,546 a big question, a big question in a lot of people's minds. 2055 01:23:27,593 --> 01:23:30,822 If we have stars that are that far away, 2056 01:23:30,847 --> 01:23:32,999 million of light years away, 2057 01:23:33,132 --> 01:23:35,452 and if the Earth is young, 2058 01:23:35,515 --> 01:23:37,281 as we believe, 2059 01:23:37,384 --> 01:23:40,740 then how in the world can the starlight be here? 2060 01:23:40,765 --> 01:23:41,413 Yeah. 2061 01:23:41,438 --> 01:23:44,186 We call this the, the light travel time problem. 2062 01:23:44,241 --> 01:23:47,061 And I'll try to phrase it for you little, little differently. 2063 01:23:47,108 --> 01:23:50,819 Uh, we believe that if creation is only thousands of years old, 2064 01:23:50,882 --> 01:23:53,140 uh, say 6,000 years, 7,000 years, 2065 01:23:53,165 --> 01:23:54,429 - something like that. - Uh-huh. 2066 01:23:54,454 --> 01:23:56,032 And I just pointed out something to you 2067 01:23:56,057 --> 01:23:58,291 that we think, it's 2 million light years away from us. 2068 01:23:58,361 --> 01:24:00,572 I think those distances are reasonably correct. 2069 01:24:00,618 --> 01:24:03,065 And uh, we creationists need to answer this question. 2070 01:24:03,097 --> 01:24:06,761 And we've offered several different solutions to that. 2071 01:24:06,801 --> 01:24:09,589 - I'll discuss with you my solution... - OK. 2072 01:24:09,628 --> 01:24:10,667 on this. 2073 01:24:10,701 --> 01:24:13,121 Several, several things jump out at me in the creation account. 2074 01:24:13,128 --> 01:24:15,679 One, there are a lot of process going on, 2075 01:24:15,704 --> 01:24:18,242 very rapid process, but still process. 2076 01:24:18,279 --> 01:24:19,834 Uh, if you look at the day 3 account, 2077 01:24:19,861 --> 01:24:22,246 it talks about plants, rising up above the ground. 2078 01:24:22,271 --> 01:24:24,819 It says, let the Earth bring forth these plants, 2079 01:24:24,844 --> 01:24:26,174 and the Earth brought forth. 2080 01:24:26,213 --> 01:24:27,998 I think if you would have been there, it would have looked like 2081 01:24:28,023 --> 01:24:29,815 - a time lapse movie. - Hhh. 2082 01:24:29,846 --> 01:24:31,893 Growth might take normally decades, 2083 01:24:31,940 --> 01:24:35,604 taking place in a matter of minutes or hours at the most. 2084 01:24:35,663 --> 01:24:36,911 Uh, normal growth,... 2085 01:24:36,958 --> 01:24:39,278 - abnormally fast. - Hhh. 2086 01:24:39,372 --> 01:24:40,676 I believe, you can interpret... 2087 01:24:40,701 --> 01:24:42,927 one day of creation in terms of another day. 2088 01:24:42,958 --> 01:24:44,583 So I turn to the day 4 account, 2089 01:24:44,608 --> 01:24:46,130 not much information is given there. 2090 01:24:46,155 --> 01:24:49,012 But I think, God also rapidly made the stars 2091 01:24:49,044 --> 01:24:50,669 and other astronomical bodies. 2092 01:24:50,700 --> 01:24:54,333 And then, in order for them to fulfill their function to be seen, 2093 01:24:54,360 --> 01:24:56,598 He had to rapidly bring forth that light. 2094 01:24:56,625 --> 01:24:59,176 Just as He brought plants and matured quickly, 2095 01:24:59,229 --> 01:25:01,190 - He had to bring light here. - Uh-huh. 2096 01:25:01,229 --> 01:25:03,682 I'm suggesting when we actually look at these objects, 2097 01:25:03,707 --> 01:25:06,232 like the Andromeda galaxy we saw a few minutes ago, 2098 01:25:06,272 --> 01:25:09,379 we're looking at light that actually left that object. 2099 01:25:09,404 --> 01:25:10,044 Yes. 2100 01:25:10,075 --> 01:25:11,576 So I think, there is rapid maturing 2101 01:25:11,601 --> 01:25:12,788 - took place. - Yeah. 2102 01:25:12,920 --> 01:25:16,138 Danny, are there some other things that you see 2103 01:25:16,163 --> 01:25:19,654 that would point to a young universe? 2104 01:25:19,689 --> 01:25:20,800 I think so. 2105 01:25:20,839 --> 01:25:22,786 For instance, uh, spiral galaxies. 2106 01:25:22,811 --> 01:25:24,693 So, Andromeda Galaxy, we talked about, 2107 01:25:24,724 --> 01:25:25,925 - is a spiral galaxy. - Uh-huh. 2108 01:25:25,950 --> 01:25:27,122 Our own is. 2109 01:25:27,162 --> 01:25:30,396 And the inside of the galaxies should spin faster 2110 01:25:30,421 --> 01:25:31,755 than the outside of the galaxies. 2111 01:25:31,794 --> 01:25:33,419 So after few rotations, 2112 01:25:33,490 --> 01:25:35,904 you ought to wind up or smear out. 2113 01:25:35,942 --> 01:25:37,107 Those, those spiral patterns, 2114 01:25:37,138 --> 01:25:39,507 they ought to disappear after few rotations. 2115 01:25:39,548 --> 01:25:42,060 Now, most astronomers think that the spiral galaxies are 2116 01:25:42,099 --> 01:25:43,177 10 billion years old. 2117 01:25:43,216 --> 01:25:45,730 So, why do we still see spiral patterns? 2118 01:25:45,755 --> 01:25:47,154 - You shouldn't see those. - Right. 2119 01:25:47,193 --> 01:25:49,412 And it has been long recognized this is problem. 2120 01:25:49,443 --> 01:25:51,240 But also, if we look at the um, 2121 01:25:51,265 --> 01:25:53,677 the outer planets of the solar system, the gas giants, 2122 01:25:53,701 --> 01:25:54,803 they all have rings. 2123 01:25:54,845 --> 01:25:57,638 And we also know that these things are changing. 2124 01:25:57,663 --> 01:25:58,794 They're wiping out. 2125 01:25:58,833 --> 01:26:02,203 They've actually documented changes that have taken place within the ring system. 2126 01:26:02,228 --> 01:26:06,110 You have all these gravitational tugs from the other satellites, orbiting around. 2127 01:26:06,153 --> 01:26:08,928 So these ring systems are fairly young. 2128 01:26:08,960 --> 01:26:10,725 Doesn't prove that the solar system is young, 2129 01:26:10,750 --> 01:26:12,686 but it proves that these ring systems are young. 2130 01:26:12,711 --> 01:26:14,225 - Uh-huh. - And that's interesting. 2131 01:26:14,296 --> 01:26:16,132 Well, you mentioned a, a lot of... 2132 01:26:16,163 --> 01:26:19,210 theories about the spirals and, and so forth,... 2133 01:26:19,249 --> 01:26:20,983 uh, that brings us to... 2134 01:26:21,022 --> 01:26:23,413 what most people see as the big theory, 2135 01:26:23,460 --> 01:26:25,997 - concerning cosmology and the universe, - Uh-huh. 2136 01:26:26,015 --> 01:26:27,554 and that the Big Bang. 2137 01:26:27,608 --> 01:26:29,250 Uh, how do you see that? 2138 01:26:29,275 --> 01:26:31,219 Is it holding up over time? 2139 01:26:31,244 --> 01:26:32,250 I don't think so. 2140 01:26:32,275 --> 01:26:34,681 I think it's, it's getting some problems. 2141 01:26:34,728 --> 01:26:36,189 - Hhh. - So much so that 2142 01:26:36,214 --> 01:26:37,668 more than a dozen years ago, 2143 01:26:37,693 --> 01:26:39,103 I think, in New Scientist Magazine, 2144 01:26:39,128 --> 01:26:41,697 there was an open letter, protesting the Big Bang theory. 2145 01:26:41,728 --> 01:26:43,847 And it has hundreds of signatures since. 2146 01:26:43,878 --> 01:26:45,682 And most people signing are atheists. 2147 01:26:45,707 --> 01:26:47,463 They are not even creationists. 2148 01:26:47,488 --> 01:26:51,136 So, this idea that the Big Bang model's universally accepted is not true. 2149 01:26:51,161 --> 01:26:52,486 There are many people out there, 2150 01:26:52,511 --> 01:26:54,168 well, well, known people, 2151 01:26:54,199 --> 01:26:56,894 very famous physic and astronomy people 2152 01:26:56,933 --> 01:26:58,878 that have real problems with the Big Bang. 2153 01:26:58,916 --> 01:27:01,927 And, and I don't see any way that you can reconcile 2154 01:27:01,952 --> 01:27:03,301 the Big Bang with the Bible, 2155 01:27:03,326 --> 01:27:05,458 though, a lot of people seem to think that you can. 2156 01:27:05,498 --> 01:27:07,177 I think, the temptation they have there 2157 01:27:07,209 --> 01:27:08,811 is to try to interpret... 2158 01:27:08,849 --> 01:27:12,449 uh, Scripture in terms of the current cosmological thinking. 2159 01:27:12,474 --> 01:27:14,863 That's nothing new. That has happened before, 2160 01:27:14,895 --> 01:27:17,231 as it turns out, with disastrous results. 2161 01:27:17,277 --> 01:27:19,686 So I, I think when you look at the history of science, 2162 01:27:19,717 --> 01:27:21,920 the way we have discarded theories over time, 2163 01:27:21,952 --> 01:27:24,311 We've had theories that were supposedly... 2164 01:27:24,390 --> 01:27:26,775 uh, beyond dispute... 2165 01:27:26,814 --> 01:27:28,827 - Uh-huh. - and then later on discarded. 2166 01:27:28,881 --> 01:27:31,898 Uh, when you see that lesson from history 2167 01:27:31,923 --> 01:27:33,595 and then you want to wed Genesis, 2168 01:27:33,642 --> 01:27:36,563 you want to interpret Genesis in terms of ruling paradigm, 2169 01:27:36,595 --> 01:27:39,191 - I think you need to be very careful. - Hhh, yeah. 2170 01:27:40,566 --> 01:27:44,628 I realized, Danny was re-orienting our perspective. 2171 01:27:44,823 --> 01:27:48,107 We need to interpret the Universe, in terms of Genesis, 2172 01:27:48,154 --> 01:27:50,318 not the other way around. 2173 01:27:50,427 --> 01:27:54,711 And Genesis tells us that God created the sun, moon, and stars 2174 01:27:54,742 --> 01:27:58,804 to be a magnificent clock to track the passage of time. 2175 01:27:58,898 --> 01:28:02,359 Even the ancient built towers to follow the stars. 2176 01:28:02,437 --> 01:28:04,951 But what does Genesis say about those people 2177 01:28:04,976 --> 01:28:07,344 and the languages ​​they spoke? 2178 01:28:16,522 --> 01:28:20,491 Doug took me to one of the best archaeological museums in the world, 2179 01:28:20,522 --> 01:28:23,006 to show some of the unique artifacts 2180 01:28:23,061 --> 01:28:25,303 that relate to Genesis. 2181 01:28:26,763 --> 01:28:29,316 Well, the events of the Bible are unfolded 2182 01:28:29,351 --> 01:28:30,621 in the ancient Near East. 2183 01:28:30,646 --> 01:28:34,601 So, all these lands are extremely important to understanding... 2184 01:28:34,656 --> 01:28:37,671 uh, how and what took place in the biblical text. 2185 01:28:37,726 --> 01:28:41,078 So, this picks up the events we've been looking at in, in Genesis, 2186 01:28:41,103 --> 01:28:43,008 from Creation and the Flood, 2187 01:28:43,033 --> 01:28:45,839 and now, we're to the dispersion of mankind 2188 01:28:45,871 --> 01:28:47,574 out of Noah and his family. 2189 01:28:47,605 --> 01:28:48,488 Exactly. 2190 01:28:48,535 --> 01:28:50,472 And the, the dispersion would have taken place 2191 01:28:50,503 --> 01:28:53,824 somewhere in the mountain range to the northwest of Mesopotamia. 2192 01:28:53,871 --> 01:28:56,964 And what we see in the biblical text and the narrative is that 2193 01:28:56,989 --> 01:28:59,231 a number of people have migrated 2194 01:28:59,278 --> 01:29:03,109 uh, down to southern Mesopotamia, to the land of Shinar,... 2195 01:29:03,134 --> 01:29:06,108 and move toward the process of urbanization, 2196 01:29:06,163 --> 01:29:07,366 - Uh-huh. - city living. 2197 01:29:07,413 --> 01:29:09,436 And that's the famous Tower of Babel. 2198 01:29:09,483 --> 01:29:10,302 Absolutely. 2199 01:29:10,327 --> 01:29:12,007 Do we know where that is? 2200 01:29:12,061 --> 01:29:14,804 There are about 7 or 8 Babels, 2201 01:29:14,829 --> 01:29:16,821 - cities of Babel, - Huh. 2202 01:29:16,853 --> 01:29:19,235 in the ancient area of Mesopotamia. 2203 01:29:19,266 --> 01:29:22,001 And so, one at a time, I studied all of those areas... 2204 01:29:22,032 --> 01:29:25,266 and found only one that meets all the criteria of... 2205 01:29:25,321 --> 01:29:28,282 - the famous site of the Tower of Babel. - Hhh. 2206 01:29:28,323 --> 01:29:30,220 And that is site of Eridu, 2207 01:29:30,245 --> 01:29:33,466 which is in southeastern Mesopotamia. 2208 01:29:33,513 --> 01:29:36,278 We have signs of the expansion to the North, 2209 01:29:36,349 --> 01:29:38,763 to the South, to the East, 2210 01:29:38,841 --> 01:29:41,718 to the West, all the way as far as Egypt. 2211 01:29:41,781 --> 01:29:43,866 And when you say evidence, uh, 2212 01:29:43,906 --> 01:29:46,757 that is the artifacts that we find in these... 2213 01:29:46,788 --> 01:29:48,146 archaeological digs? 2214 01:29:48,171 --> 01:29:50,235 Exactly. There is an enormous 2215 01:29:50,275 --> 01:29:55,579 a, amount and very specific kind of material culture... 2216 01:29:55,626 --> 01:29:58,277 that attest to this expansion of people. 2217 01:29:58,308 --> 01:30:01,457 And I'm connecting to the post Babel dispersion. 2218 01:30:01,482 --> 01:30:03,494 Uh, here are the beveled rim bowls, 2219 01:30:03,519 --> 01:30:04,583 - these two, - Uh-huh. 2220 01:30:04,608 --> 01:30:06,010 just that Riemchen brick... 2221 01:30:06,050 --> 01:30:07,477 - that we see up there, - Oh, yeah. 2222 01:30:07,502 --> 01:30:10,080 and those two spouted jars, 2223 01:30:10,105 --> 01:30:14,474 all these diagnostic forms of pottery and material culture, 2224 01:30:14,513 --> 01:30:16,724 they're found throughout the Near East. 2225 01:30:16,755 --> 01:30:20,410 The Bible describes an event that's not just the confusion of language, 2226 01:30:20,435 --> 01:30:22,505 but the dispersing of people... 2227 01:30:22,537 --> 01:30:24,389 - far from that city. - Uh-huh. 2228 01:30:24,420 --> 01:30:26,352 And because we see language 2229 01:30:26,399 --> 01:30:28,680 or, or the written expression of language, 2230 01:30:28,727 --> 01:30:30,524 - just pop up out of nowhere. - Hhh. 2231 01:30:30,549 --> 01:30:32,749 And then different languages 2232 01:30:32,774 --> 01:30:35,660 being represented through cuneiform script 2233 01:30:35,692 --> 01:30:38,621 or through hieroglyphic script or, or other means. 2234 01:30:38,653 --> 01:30:41,694 So you do not have a universal plan 2235 01:30:41,726 --> 01:30:43,679 that's followed among all of those languages. 2236 01:30:43,710 --> 01:30:47,353 You see great diversity in the forms of grammar, 2237 01:30:47,384 --> 01:30:50,587 from language to language even in ancient languages. 2238 01:30:50,641 --> 01:30:52,376 It, it seems then that 2239 01:30:52,401 --> 01:30:54,658 the event recorded in Genesis... 2240 01:30:54,689 --> 01:30:56,407 about the Tower of Babel, 2241 01:30:56,446 --> 01:30:59,518 that's a very, very event for archeology. 2242 01:30:59,550 --> 01:31:00,470 It is. 2243 01:31:00,495 --> 01:31:02,573 So all of this fits perfectly 2244 01:31:02,612 --> 01:31:05,118 with what we, we would see as the biblical account... 2245 01:31:05,143 --> 01:31:07,321 of how languages took place. 2246 01:31:07,346 --> 01:31:10,284 It's, it's really the only way of explaining this. 2247 01:31:10,331 --> 01:31:12,503 So the integrity of biblical history, 2248 01:31:12,542 --> 01:31:14,331 ultimately, is justified,... 2249 01:31:14,393 --> 01:31:16,682 by the expression of these languages. 2250 01:31:16,729 --> 01:31:20,817 Now, most of us think today of a tower the kind of thing 2251 01:31:20,850 --> 01:31:24,070 we see in big cities, they have big straight walls. 2252 01:31:24,095 --> 01:31:25,651 Is that what they were building? 2253 01:31:25,686 --> 01:31:28,495 Well, essentially, it's a variation of the pyramid. 2254 01:31:28,527 --> 01:31:30,128 And there were four sides to it 2255 01:31:30,160 --> 01:31:33,043 and several stairways that would go up to the top. 2256 01:31:33,089 --> 01:31:35,239 At Eridu, we have a temple... 2257 01:31:35,279 --> 01:31:37,279 that existed in 18 different phases, 2258 01:31:37,304 --> 01:31:40,521 and in every phase, it grew in its size and complexity. 2259 01:31:40,568 --> 01:31:41,394 Uh-huh. 2260 01:31:41,419 --> 01:31:44,659 And that final temple, that final phase of the temple, 2261 01:31:44,694 --> 01:31:47,351 it was abandoned immediately, 2262 01:31:47,413 --> 01:31:49,593 right at the time of the late Uruk 2263 01:31:49,632 --> 01:31:50,638 - expansion. - Hhh. 2264 01:31:50,663 --> 01:31:56,488 Cater-cornered to the temple was an absolutely enormous platform. 2265 01:31:56,535 --> 01:31:59,659 You think that could be the foundation of the Tower of Babel? 2266 01:31:59,684 --> 01:32:00,462 Absolutely. 2267 01:32:00,487 --> 01:32:02,024 And I would suggest to you... 2268 01:32:02,049 --> 01:32:04,604 - that this late Uruk expansion... - Hhh. 2269 01:32:04,659 --> 01:32:06,714 where this technology began... 2270 01:32:06,739 --> 01:32:08,870 was something that spread with the people. 2271 01:32:08,909 --> 01:32:11,346 We find forms of these ziggurats... 2272 01:32:11,378 --> 01:32:13,581 all around the globe. 2273 01:32:13,612 --> 01:32:15,372 We find them in China. 2274 01:32:15,411 --> 01:32:16,880 We find them in India. 2275 01:32:16,927 --> 01:32:19,309 We find them in various parts of Americas. 2276 01:32:19,334 --> 01:32:20,914 - Hhh. - We find them all over. 2277 01:32:20,949 --> 01:32:24,903 Well, obviously, we have evidence here of civilization 2278 01:32:24,934 --> 01:32:28,366 and people beginning to gather together in communities, even cities. 2279 01:32:28,428 --> 01:32:30,225 Do we have any other evidence of that? 2280 01:32:30,264 --> 01:32:30,952 Absolutely. 2281 01:32:30,983 --> 01:32:33,858 We can move forward to the time of Abraham. 2282 01:32:33,889 --> 01:32:36,553 Because we know that Abraham lived at the site of Ur, 2283 01:32:36,600 --> 01:32:39,365 which was also in southern Mesopotamia... 2284 01:32:39,397 --> 01:32:42,196 at the end of the third millennium BC. 2285 01:32:42,235 --> 01:32:44,602 That brings us to the end of Genesis chapter 11. 2286 01:32:44,657 --> 01:32:45,540 Exactly. 2287 01:32:45,571 --> 01:32:49,633 In fact, you see some pottery, some cuneiform tablets, 2288 01:32:49,665 --> 01:32:52,844 all dating to the period of the Third Dynasty of Ur. 2289 01:32:52,869 --> 01:32:55,991 It, it's amazing just as we're sitting here and thinking about that, you know, 2290 01:32:56,016 --> 01:32:58,321 thinking uh, about Abraham 2291 01:32:58,346 --> 01:33:02,969 and that this represents the culture and civilization that he lived in. 2292 01:33:03,032 --> 01:33:05,597 It's a great tie to that record in Genesis for. 2293 01:33:05,628 --> 01:33:07,948 It is fascinating and it gives you a feeling of... 2294 01:33:07,987 --> 01:33:09,948 - put your hands around the events - Hhh. 2295 01:33:09,973 --> 01:33:12,280 - that go on in the biblical text. - Right. Yup. 2296 01:33:13,038 --> 01:33:14,780 When I looked through history, 2297 01:33:14,827 --> 01:33:16,873 I realized each of these cultures 2298 01:33:16,913 --> 01:33:20,553 had been impacted by the events recorded in Genesis. 2299 01:33:20,623 --> 01:33:24,375 But, what is the importance of Genesis to us today? 2300 01:33:32,580 --> 01:33:35,838 George Grant wanted to meet me at a garden near his home. 2301 01:33:35,908 --> 01:33:39,939 He said it was a good reminder of where our history began. 2302 01:33:40,650 --> 01:33:42,978 So it's something significant about 2303 01:33:43,018 --> 01:33:44,627 uh, the Genesis text 2304 01:33:44,666 --> 01:33:47,049 in which Adam and Eve were then placed 2305 01:33:47,083 --> 01:33:49,356 into a garden to tend it. 2306 01:33:49,408 --> 01:33:51,349 Uh, that's more than just a story. 2307 01:33:51,371 --> 01:33:53,225 It's much more than just a story. 2308 01:33:53,256 --> 01:33:56,123 One of the things that you see in Genesis chapter 1... 2309 01:33:56,248 --> 01:33:59,803 is the structure for time. 2310 01:33:59,842 --> 01:34:03,683 Uh, the universe is created for a 24-hour day. 2311 01:34:03,708 --> 01:34:07,922 And so everything from the way our sleep cycles 2312 01:34:07,947 --> 01:34:10,953 and the way our work cycles work, 2313 01:34:11,032 --> 01:34:12,819 all come from that 2314 01:34:12,851 --> 01:34:15,585 definitive historical account there. 2315 01:34:15,640 --> 01:34:18,073 When we get to uh, Genesis chapter 2, 2316 01:34:18,118 --> 01:34:20,752 we start to see the meaning and purpose of man. 2317 01:34:20,843 --> 01:34:22,572 Of course, in Genesis chapter 3, 2318 01:34:22,619 --> 01:34:26,189 we see disruption of everything by the fall. 2319 01:34:26,263 --> 01:34:28,734 The implications of a historical fall, 2320 01:34:28,759 --> 01:34:31,353 an actual man and an actual woman, 2321 01:34:31,384 --> 01:34:35,378 who actually yielded to actual sin... 2322 01:34:35,449 --> 01:34:39,386 have then implications off through the rest of the Bible. 2323 01:34:39,519 --> 01:34:42,396 If you remove a literal Adam and Eve, 2324 01:34:42,421 --> 01:34:46,271 That, that changes the whole shape of what the history is... 2325 01:34:46,341 --> 01:34:48,654 and how history is remembered. 2326 01:34:48,740 --> 01:34:52,055 Is that because when we pull an Adam and Eve 2327 01:34:52,090 --> 01:34:55,437 out of the historical record, 2328 01:34:55,484 --> 01:34:57,195 we can then pretty much... 2329 01:34:57,244 --> 01:34:59,758 make up what we think about man, 2330 01:34:59,783 --> 01:35:02,531 and marriage, and even sexuality? 2331 01:35:02,601 --> 01:35:04,023 Absolutely. 2332 01:35:04,054 --> 01:35:06,748 The apostle Paul understood the events 2333 01:35:06,773 --> 01:35:09,963 of the uh, early chapters of Genesis 2334 01:35:09,994 --> 01:35:12,291 as formative, not only 2335 01:35:12,338 --> 01:35:14,046 for our understanding of history, 2336 01:35:14,081 --> 01:35:16,165 but for relationships 2337 01:35:16,212 --> 01:35:19,494 between men and women and their children, 2338 01:35:19,548 --> 01:35:21,847 uh, the character and nature of marriage, 2339 01:35:21,878 --> 01:35:27,325 uh, rightness and wrongness in moral relations, including sexuality. 2340 01:35:27,364 --> 01:35:30,083 - All of that is assumed... - Hhh. 2341 01:35:30,122 --> 01:35:32,716 from those early chapters of Genesis, 2342 01:35:32,755 --> 01:35:36,812 often time quoting the passages verbatim. 2343 01:35:36,866 --> 01:35:39,195 It, it seems that even Peters 2344 01:35:39,226 --> 01:35:44,007 is taking that event of the Flood, for example, as a historic event, 2345 01:35:44,046 --> 01:35:45,843 and laying it in 2346 01:35:45,898 --> 01:35:50,265 the context of which is pointing to a judgment that will, that will come. 2347 01:35:50,296 --> 01:35:52,212 So even judgment is a part... 2348 01:35:52,251 --> 01:35:54,876 of, of understanding that historical record. 2349 01:35:54,923 --> 01:35:57,900 You cut things off from history... 2350 01:35:58,876 --> 01:36:02,260 and lose sight of the meaning of all of it. 2351 01:36:02,337 --> 01:36:05,675 I think most Christians, uh, when we talk about... 2352 01:36:05,722 --> 01:36:07,766 uh, for example, the life of Christ, 2353 01:36:07,801 --> 01:36:10,576 those are understood to be historical... 2354 01:36:10,632 --> 01:36:11,936 - accounts. - Right. 2355 01:36:11,975 --> 01:36:16,122 Why is it that when we look at the account in Genesis, 2356 01:36:16,169 --> 01:36:19,640 that we have a tendency not to want to do that? 2357 01:36:19,734 --> 01:36:24,046 We have a tendency not to do it because we're constantly exhorted... 2358 01:36:24,101 --> 01:36:25,945 to not see it that way. 2359 01:36:25,983 --> 01:36:27,327 From the culture around us? 2360 01:36:27,353 --> 01:36:30,313 The culture around us, uh, from theologians, 2361 01:36:30,360 --> 01:36:33,212 uh, modern theologians who are trying to, 2362 01:36:33,243 --> 01:36:35,110 some how in their minds, 2363 01:36:35,149 --> 01:36:37,733 fit the truths of Scripture with the... 2364 01:36:37,758 --> 01:36:40,493 - the so-called discoveries of science, - Uh-huh, uh-huh. 2365 01:36:40,562 --> 01:36:43,095 which if you know anything about the history of science, 2366 01:36:43,120 --> 01:36:46,712 - you know it's incredibly unreliable path. - Uh-huh, uh-huh. 2367 01:36:46,737 --> 01:36:49,539 So we are constantly bombarded... 2368 01:36:49,617 --> 01:36:53,786 with this message that we have to adjust our view. 2369 01:36:53,934 --> 01:36:58,192 But I think there are a lot of Christians who have a sense... 2370 01:36:58,262 --> 01:37:01,373 that the historicity of Genesis... 2371 01:37:01,428 --> 01:37:05,858 is just not that important to their Christianity. 2372 01:37:05,944 --> 01:37:08,881 I, I think we have been sold the bill of goods on that. 2373 01:37:08,952 --> 01:37:13,782 When you, somehow, make those chapters 2374 01:37:13,821 --> 01:37:16,063 a different category altogether, 2375 01:37:16,103 --> 01:37:17,744 and non-historical, 2376 01:37:17,798 --> 01:37:20,152 What, what are you doing to all of the rest of the Bible? 2377 01:37:20,191 --> 01:37:22,175 The Bible that assumes that is true, 2378 01:37:22,206 --> 01:37:25,019 the Bible that treats it as historical true, 2379 01:37:25,058 --> 01:37:29,008 and the Bible that refers back to all of the characters that are there, 2380 01:37:29,043 --> 01:37:31,482 does that then negates the whole of the Bible? 2381 01:37:31,507 --> 01:37:33,818 Well, yes. 2382 01:37:33,912 --> 01:37:36,427 And that's exactly what the strategy was 2383 01:37:36,467 --> 01:37:37,873 of the higher critics 2384 01:37:37,927 --> 01:37:39,982 in the 18th and 19th centuries. 2385 01:37:40,031 --> 01:37:41,625 They knew... 2386 01:37:41,796 --> 01:37:45,992 if you could, somehow, attack the first three... 2387 01:37:46,054 --> 01:37:49,875 or first eleven chapters of Genesis... 2388 01:37:49,984 --> 01:37:51,916 you're done away with the whole thing. 2389 01:37:52,195 --> 01:37:55,705 Well, George, all of this brings us back in to... 2390 01:37:55,799 --> 01:37:58,166 the notion that the history... 2391 01:37:58,260 --> 01:38:02,963 uh, that is recorded in Genesis or any true history at all is critical... 2392 01:38:02,988 --> 01:38:06,291 for us, in terms of understanding what's going on around us. 2393 01:38:06,369 --> 01:38:07,822 Yeah. In, in fact,... 2394 01:38:07,861 --> 01:38:11,308 it reminds us of how important history is... 2395 01:38:11,355 --> 01:38:14,761 and anchoring all of the other human disciplines. 2396 01:38:14,808 --> 01:38:18,693 Uh, it is the history that helps to inform science. 2397 01:38:18,740 --> 01:38:23,169 So that science can begin its journey of discovery in the world. 2398 01:38:23,263 --> 01:38:27,234 So what the history does is it tells us what happened. 2399 01:38:27,515 --> 01:38:30,406 Then what science attempts to do is... 2400 01:38:30,468 --> 01:38:33,406 it, it asks the question, well, how did it happen? 2401 01:38:33,492 --> 01:38:35,992 And then, it, it begins to explore 2402 01:38:36,070 --> 01:38:37,538 the how, the mechanics, 2403 01:38:37,570 --> 01:38:38,906 - the structures - Hhh. 2404 01:38:38,969 --> 01:38:41,773 uh, that were present in those events. 2405 01:38:41,851 --> 01:38:43,302 If you try to reverse that, 2406 01:38:43,365 --> 01:38:45,592 if you try to make science... 2407 01:38:45,661 --> 01:38:48,802 - uh, saying what actually happened, - Uh-huh. 2408 01:38:48,872 --> 01:38:52,671 uh, then you, you wind up having a worldview 2409 01:38:52,726 --> 01:38:56,085 that is constantly shifting where nothing is certain. 2410 01:38:56,140 --> 01:38:58,233 And moral relativism... 2411 01:38:58,335 --> 01:39:00,991 is the necessary outcome. 2412 01:39:01,397 --> 01:39:03,819 And God has given us that bedrock. 2413 01:39:03,858 --> 01:39:05,790 He has given us that foundation 2414 01:39:05,845 --> 01:39:07,571 in that historical record. 2415 01:39:07,626 --> 01:39:10,415 He has given it to us in that historical record... 2416 01:39:10,440 --> 01:39:13,751 going all the way back to Genesis chapter 1... 2417 01:39:13,837 --> 01:39:15,595 - and the garden. - And the garden. 2418 01:39:17,103 --> 01:39:20,814 In the end, I suppose we always return home. 2419 01:39:20,905 --> 01:39:23,213 And for me, home is Colorado. 2420 01:39:23,337 --> 01:39:24,754 I always think more clearly... 2421 01:39:24,779 --> 01:39:27,707 when I'm out in the beauty of God's creation. 2422 01:39:27,902 --> 01:39:31,168 We've been in a lot of places and seen a lot of things,... 2423 01:39:31,254 --> 01:39:33,394 but considering everything together,... 2424 01:39:33,480 --> 01:39:36,418 it's clear that nothing in the world makes sense, 2425 01:39:36,459 --> 01:39:39,514 except in the light of Genesis. 2426 01:39:42,170 --> 01:39:43,695 I love being in the mountains, 2427 01:39:43,720 --> 01:39:46,367 especially, ones like these. 2428 01:39:46,477 --> 01:39:48,985 They help give us a good perspective,... 2429 01:39:49,146 --> 01:39:52,143 help us realize that we're small and... 2430 01:39:52,252 --> 01:39:54,072 finite, and vulnerable. 2431 01:39:54,312 --> 01:39:55,960 They humble us. 2432 01:39:56,195 --> 01:39:58,181 And we need to be humble because we have... 2433 01:39:58,251 --> 01:40:00,634 a tendency to base our ideas... 2434 01:40:00,713 --> 01:40:02,533 on our own small... 2435 01:40:02,619 --> 01:40:04,354 set of experiences. 2436 01:40:04,556 --> 01:40:08,049 That's why the wisdom of the ages has told us over and over again... 2437 01:40:08,111 --> 01:40:10,191 to know history. 2438 01:40:10,769 --> 01:40:14,183 Everything that we've done up to this point... 2439 01:40:14,433 --> 01:40:16,402 has looked at the evidence 2440 01:40:16,449 --> 01:40:19,504 that shows us that the word of God,... 2441 01:40:19,654 --> 01:40:24,092 the history that has been laid down for us in Genesis is true. 2442 01:40:24,741 --> 01:40:28,123 God created the world in six days. 2443 01:40:28,436 --> 01:40:31,204 There was a real Adam, a real Eve. 2444 01:40:31,243 --> 01:40:33,243 There was a real fall. 2445 01:40:33,431 --> 01:40:35,462 It really was a flood... 2446 01:40:35,719 --> 01:40:38,665 that destroyed the world and produced all of this. 2447 01:40:38,690 --> 01:40:42,461 It is glorious, but it represents the judgment of God. 2448 01:40:43,005 --> 01:40:45,126 Everything supports... 2449 01:40:45,306 --> 01:40:47,329 what God has told us. 2450 01:40:47,532 --> 01:40:49,797 Genesis is history. 2451 01:40:50,009 --> 01:40:51,469 True history. 193567

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